1 Monday, 14 March 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 First of all, my apologies for the delayed start. I was occupied
7 by another business and couldn't be here in time.
8 To discuss a confidential matter, we should briefly go into
9 private session.
10 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not object to
7 being in open session for stating this.
8 I have some issues with the security. They only offer me some
9 English tea which is causing me intestinal problems, and I'm forbidden to
10 bring my own tea from the Detention Unit or any other tea brought to me
11 by my counsel. For example, they used to bring me tea from the
12 restaurant here at the Tribunal; however, I can no longer do that. I
13 only eat once a day and if I don't drink a particular brand of tea, I
14 have intestinal problems. I don't even eat the food that is provided in
15 the Detention Unit. And without that particular tea, I wouldn't be able
16 to take any further part in these proceedings.
17 Could I please be allowed to drink the mint tea that I need, be
18 it by bringing it from the Detention Unit, which I otherwise use there,
19 or that my counsel be allowed to provide me with a cup of mint tea?
20 Otherwise, I will have to refuse to keep drinking the type of tea, the
21 only type of tea, I am offered by the security.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.
24 Perhaps I can be of assistance.
25 Today, after over a year, we were told that I no longer can
1 provide tea for Mr. Tolimir, for him to drink during the breaks in the
2 course of the hearings. All tea that I used to bring him was purchased
3 in the cafeteria here at the Tribunal. It is the mint tea I'm holding in
4 my hand. And as of today I'm being forbidden to bring it to him, or
5 actually I have to do that with the assistance of a guard.
6 I don't know whose decision it was. The guard told me that he
7 was instructed to do so by his supervisor. In any case, it is
8 unreasonable, because we have been following the same practice as of day
9 one of the proceedings, and all of a sudden, today, we can no longer
10 continue with that. We are absolutely ignorant of any causes of that.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that this is really a new development,
12 a new occurrence, which didn't happen before; is that correct?
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President. This is
14 something we were told just prior to entering the courtroom.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does the Prosecution have a position on that?
18 Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Simply that whatever
20 necessary inquiries are made to hopefully resolve the issue, and perhaps
21 that can be done informally through the good offices of the Registry and
22 the Trial Chamber and the members of the Detention Unit.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, apologies. However,
25 we have stopped receiving interpretation. Mr. Tolimir could not follow
1 in the Serbian language what was said.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should be checked first.
3 Mr. Tolimir, do you receive translation -- interpretation of what
4 I'm saying?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, I am now. But I
6 received nothing when Mr. Thayer got up. There may have been a problem
7 with his microphone.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, would you please repeat your short
10 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
11 I was simply proposing that whatever the necessary inquiries are
12 made and perhaps can be made informally through the good offices of the
13 Registrar or the Trial Chamber and members of the Detention Unit or
14 security that are present here, just to find out what the issue is. And
15 hopefully it can be resolved that way.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, did you receive a proper
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
19 received the interpretation.
20 All tests or examinations take a full month. Could we stop with
21 the sessions for that one month, stop the hearings? During the tests I
22 cannot take any food. When I started bringing in tea, all other accused
23 started bringing in tea. And then when my proceedings started, I was
24 prohibited from doing so. And then we made another arrangement which was
25 that my counsel would bring it to me, and now that too is being
1 forbidden. I don't know why that is such a problem all of a sudden. If
2 the tea is a problem and if it needs to be tested or examined for months
3 on end, then we should have stay in the proceedings. This here, the
4 cafeteria of the Tribunal, is the last place that I can get that tea. I
5 do not take food. For example, you can ask the guards that I have never
6 taken a single meal in the Tribunal building. And I need that tea.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has considered your
8 submission. I would like to ask, especially you, if you would agree that
9 we make an oral decision now and ask the Registry to explain the
10 situation, the reasons for the change of the proceedings in the
11 Detention Unit, at the end of this session, before the first break, so
12 that we are aware of the situation.
13 Would that be sufficient for your purposes?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Please bear in mind
15 that the DU puts entire meals in the van which also brings the accused
16 and the drinks as well. But, however, I take none of that. I hand it
17 all over to the guards. Perhaps another arrangement could be made that
18 they no longer bring me the meal but only the tea?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I take it that you agree with our
20 proposal to ask a representative of the Registry to explain the situation
21 at the end of the first session of today.
22 Is that correct?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The application of the accused is on the record.
1 The Registry is hereby ordered to explain the situation and the change in
2 the proceeding in respect of providing tea for the accused at the end of
3 the first part of today's hearing. That means in -- at 3.40 this
4 afternoon in the courtroom.
5 Thank you very much.
6 If there's nothing else to raise before the witness is to be
7 called in, then the witness should be brought into the courtroom, please.
8 We go for a short moment into closed session to enable the
9 witness to enter the courtroom. I just explain that for the public
10 gallery. And then we go into closed session.
11 Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this witness received a caution in
13 the last trial, and I think the circumstances still prevail.
14 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please stand for a moment.
21 Good afternoon again, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
22 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
23 shown to you now.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: PW-054
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
4 yourself comfortable.
5 It's not the first time that are you giving evidence here in the
6 Tribunal. You know the procedure, and you must be aware of the fact that
7 that there are protective measures in place for you, so as using a
8 pseudonym instead of your real name, and voice and face distortion so
9 that nobody will recognise you outside of the courtroom.
10 On the request of the Prosecution, I would like to caution you.
11 We have one rule in our Rules of Procedure and Evidence. This is
12 Rule 19 -- sorry, 90(E) and I would like to read it out for you.
13 I quote:
14 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
15 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
16 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
17 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
18 offence other than false testimony."
19 Sir, do you understand this rule?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 Now Mr. Thayer for the Prosecution is examining you.
23 Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to you and
25 Your Honours. Good afternoon to the Defence and everyone in the
2 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 7251, and that should not be
6 broadcast, please.
7 Q. Sir, in a moment you'll see a document on your computer. It is
8 not being broadcast to the public. Without reading out loud anything
9 that's on that document, I would just ask you whether you can confirm
10 that you see your name written under the code-name PW-054. Just yes or
11 no. Do you see your name there, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender
14 65 ter 7251, the pseudonym sheet.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2052, under seal, Your Honours.
17 MR. THAYER:
18 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying in this courtroom, in fact, for a
19 little over two days in 2006?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you recently listen to that testimony?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And can you attest that the recording you listened to accurately
24 reflected what you said during your testimony in that prior case?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. And, Witness, you have a tendency to speak softly. If I could
2 ask you just to move a little bit closer to the microphone, not too close
3 but just a little bit closer, I think that might help.
4 Now, can you attest that if you were asked the same questions
5 today that you were asked back in 2006 that your answers would be the
7 A. Yes, I can.
8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender
9 65 ter numbers 6679 and 6680, the transcript of the witness's prior
10 testimony, the former being under seal.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received, the former under seal.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P2053 under seal and P2054
13 respectively, Your Honours.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, there are some associated exhibits,
15 four to be exact. I can tender them now. Or if the Trial Chamber
16 prefers, we can follow the other method of having Registry assign numbers
17 separately. Whatever the Court prefers.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I'm not mistaken that there are -- these are
19 only four, we can deal with that now.
20 MR. THAYER: Very well.
21 The first associated exhibit is 65 ter 6681, under seal.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as an exhibit, under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2055, under seal, Your Honours.
24 MR. THAYER: The next exhibit is 65 ter 6682, also under seal.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will also be received under seal.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2056, under seal, Your Honours.
2 MR. THAYER: The third is 65 ter 774.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This, too, will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2057.
5 MR. THAYER: And 65 ter 1630.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will be received under seal.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2058, under seal.
8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, as the Trial Chamber has probably
9 noted, there are some associated exhibits which were used with the
10 witness but not admitted in the prior proceeding, as well as two
11 non-associated exhibits which were not part of the Prosecution's original
12 65 ter list of exhibits. Pursuant to our prior procedure, I've asked the
13 Defence whether they have any objection to a Prosecution motion orally to
14 move to add those two documents, that's 65 ter 7249 and 7250, to the
15 Prosecution's exhibit list, and I'm told that there is no objection. I
16 may not end up using these, but to be on the safe side I would orally
17 move to add those to the 65 ter list at this time, please.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir or Mr. Gajic, are there any
20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no objections. Only a
21 piece of information that we would like to know. Are they already in
22 e-court? The last time I checked, about two hours ago, they still have
23 not been. It would be useful for us to know whether we can find it in
24 e-court now.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: They should already be uploaded, Mr. President, into
2 e-court and available.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And hopefully not only uploaded but released to
4 the other party.
5 MR. THAYER: And released, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Leave is granted to add them to the
7 65 ter exhibit list.
8 Please continue, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 I have a 92 ter summary for this witness. And we had better go
11 into private session for it, please.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 11189-11192 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, please continue.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Okay, Witness, we're back in open session. I'm going to show you
11 some documents but we will not broadcast those documents. I'm going to
12 ask you some specific questions about some of the passages in those
13 documents but I will not refer to any particular names and would just ask
14 that you not refer to anybody by name either. For example, I'll just
15 refer to your unit, your commander, without referring to any names. And
16 that way we can remain partially in public session but the actual
17 documents will not be broadcast.
18 Do you understand what I'm proposing?
19 A. I understand.
20 Q. All the other protective measures are still in place.
21 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 7249. And this should not be
22 broadcast, please.
23 Q. Now, we can see that what we have here is titled: "Record of a
24 statement taken from a person."
25 Do you see that, sir?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And without saying what the date is or the location, can
3 you tell the Trial Chamber, do you recognise what this is? And without
4 identifying yourself, can you tell us the Trial Chamber whether you
5 recognise what this document is?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Were you alone when this statement was taken?
8 A. Well, there were maybe two other people present in the office.
9 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not on this same
10 day, the date listed here on this document, other members of your unit
11 were also asked to answer these same questions?
12 A. Yes. They also had to answer those questions. Only at different
14 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say, then, that you and your fellow officers
15 came in on the same day and just were interviewed at different times
16 during the same day?
17 A. Yes, obviously. That's what they told us to do.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there seems to be a
20 technical problem. We can see very clearly the interpretation of what
21 Mr. Thayer is saying, but we cannot hear the witness at all on
22 channel number 6, B/C/S channel.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registrar will try to solve this problem.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should continue and wait if the next response
1 will be transferred to you in a sufficient way.
2 Just pose, please, the next question to the witness, Mr. Thayer,
3 and we will see how it works.
4 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Now, if we could go to the next page of the document, please.
6 And it will actually be the third page in both versions; forgive me.
7 Next page. Great. And same thing with the original. Sorry, we'll have
8 to go back one page in the B/C/S. I miscounted.
9 Q. Sir, we can see that with respect to virtually every question
10 that was asked of you in this interview you responded, "I don't know"; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The accused is receiving proper, yeah, or to call
14 it transfer of the voice of the witness.
15 Please continue.
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber just a little bit of an idea of
18 what you and your fellow officers were told about this particular
19 interview or set of interviews on this day?
20 A. Well, they told us that it was of a purely informative nature,
21 simply to have some papers done, and for no other purpose than that.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. THAYER: Now, If we could go to the last page of the
24 original, please.
25 Q. And, again, sir, this is not being broadcast outside this
1 courtroom. Do you see your signature anywhere on this page?
2 A. Yes, I can see it, yes.
3 Q. And can you just tell us on the page where is it located?
4 A. On the left.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender
7 65 ter 7249.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2059, under seal, Your Honours.
10 MR. THAYER: And may we also have 6685 under -- without being
11 broadcast, please. 65 ter 6685, please.
12 Q. And, again, sir, without identifying the exact date or location,
13 do you see a document that's headed: "Record of a statement taken from a
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. And seeing the date on this document and the location, do you
17 recall providing a statement on this date and at this location?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. THAYER: Now, Mr. President, I'm afraid we need to go into
20 private session for the next question on this document.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 11197 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender
21 65 ter 6685, please.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2060, under seal, Your Honours.
24 MR. THAYER: And if we may have 65 ter 6684 and not broadcast it,
1 Q. Sir, we can see here another document which is a record of a
2 statement taken from a person. Without indicating the date or the
3 location, do you recall giving a statement on this date, sir?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber whether the matters which you
6 changed in this statement from your prior statement, whether those
7 changes that you made in this statement were true or not? In other
8 words, is this a true statement, this document that we have before us?
9 A. No.
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender
11 65 ter 6684, please.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to see the end of the text to know
13 what it was about.
14 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
15 If we could go to the -- it would be page 4 in the English, where
16 the actual statement begins.
17 And if --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What about the B/C/S version? It seems to be a
19 very short one.
20 MR. THAYER: Yes. In the B/C/S version, the statement begins on
21 page 3.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, your last question to the witness
24 was: "In other words, is this a true statement, this document we have
25 before us?" And the answer was: "No."
1 We should know which part was not correct.
2 MR. THAYER: Very well, Mr. President. Just some -- actually, to
3 a significant extent he testified about this in the prior trial, but I
4 will link the two up. And one of the reasons I'm actually going through
5 the document is so that you can actually see the document, which we did
6 not introduce in the last trial. But I will have to go back into private
7 session to elicit specific detail about this document.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 11201-11207 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told by the Court Officer that he is the
24 relevant representative of the Registry to provide us with his knowledge
25 and the necessary information about the application of Mr. Tolimir.
1 Please inform us about the situation.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
3 I have been authorised by the relevant sections of the Registry
4 to represent the Registrar in making a submission regarding Mr. Tolimir's
5 request to be provided that special tea during court hearings.
6 I've been requested to inform the Trial Chamber that it is
7 standard operating procedure adopted by both the UNDU and the security
8 detail that Defence counsel and associates are not to provide anything to
9 accused persons, especially food and drink.
10 In this particular situation, security was -- the security detail
11 today were not aware of Mr. Tolimir's special need for tea and hence were
12 not providing it. For today, special arrangements have been made in this
13 regard, and security will provide Mr. Tolimir with tea as a short-term
14 immediate solution. So this will be implemented during the next break.
15 Beyond today, and as a long-term solution, security has also been
16 in association with the UNDU, exploring options to procure the required
17 tea for Mr. Tolimir on an ongoing basis. In this regard, UNDU has
18 offered to outsource the tea from its control stock, which they maintain
19 generally to meet Mr. Tolimir's regular needs. So that should alleviate
20 any concerns that Mr. Tolimir has in this regard.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does that mean that the UNDU and the relevant
22 staff will return to the proceedings previously in place?
23 THE REGISTRAR: In this regard, Your Honours, the procedure
24 envisaged is that the security personnel detail who are authorised to
25 ensure the transport of Mr. Tolimir and ensure his custody in the holding
1 cell will make available the required tea, and not the associates.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was not my question. My question is if the
3 Registry is turning back to the previous procedure which was in place for
4 more than one year.
5 THE REGISTRAR: On the face of it, it does appear that the
6 procedure will now be reversed.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If the Registry is not turning back to the
8 previous procedure, it shall notify the Chamber as soon as possible.
9 That means this afternoon.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that's duly noted.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 THE REGISTRAR: The relevant information will be furnished.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have heard what the
14 representative of the Registry told us. Please let us know how it will
15 work today, during the breaks, and the next days, and if there is any
16 concern, please let us know and update us about the situation.
17 If there's a need to come back to this matter, we will do that.
18 Thank you very much. We must have our first break now and resume
19 quarter past 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. -- I see Mr. Gajic on his feet.
23 Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be brief.
25 I wanted to inform you of the latest developments concerning the
1 tea provided to Mr. Tolimir.
2 First of all, I need to mention that it is no special tea
3 whatever. It's a simple mint tea.
4 Secondly, Mr. Tolimir indeed received his tea, which is the same
5 type of tea that we used to provide to him through the guards. I wanted
6 to draw your fact to the following. Mr. Tolimir is not allowed to take
7 any food or drinks, including tea, from the DU.
8 I'd like to use this opportunity to thank you for your prompt
9 reaction which resulted in this to everyone's satisfaction.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that.
11 Mr. Thayer, please continue your examination.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. And for my last couple of
13 questions, we'll need to go into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 11212-11216 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Tolimir, now it's your turn for your cross-examination.
21 Please go ahead.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
23 you for everything have you done for the Defence today.
24 I'd like to greet all those present. May peace reign in this
25 house. And may today's hearing and the proceedings be concluded in
1 keeping with God's will and not my own. Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, given that we both speak the same
4 language, you will have to follow the transcript in front of you; once
5 the cursor has stopped, that means once it is recorded what we said, then
6 we can start speaking again. Let us pause until such a time so as not to
8 Let's start with page 39 of this transcript, or of this record.
9 Mr. Thayer asked you why you were looking for the boy who was 16 then and
10 would be 26 now, and he quoted page 6 in line 21 from the bottom.
11 You said, Well, just so that I would know. Can you tell us, was
12 he 16 then, as it is stated in the document, or was he older perhaps?
13 A. He was 16 in 1995. Ten years later, of course, he was older.
14 Q. Thank you. Apologies to the interpreters.
15 How do you know that? Do you know his date of birth? So that we
16 could do our own maths and so that the Judges would know. Do you know
17 what year he was born in?
18 A. I don't know. But when I asked him how old he was, that is what
19 he said. I don't see any reason for him to lie. That's what he said,
20 although I don't know his exact date of birth. When I asked him how old
21 he was, he said he was 16. That's it.
22 Q. Thank you. Does it mean that you took his word for it? Could he
23 have been older at the time? Could you tell us that.
24 A. I took his word for it. And I could see him. I would have
25 noticed had he been older.
1 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- did you realize that Mr. Thayer stated
2 his first and last name for the record and that they have information
3 about him, also that he testified here and that we have his exact date of
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, may I ask the witness to take off his
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you please take off your earphones for
9 a moment.
10 Is there a need to go into private session, Mr. Thayer?
11 MR. THAYER: I'll try to keep it in open, Mr. President.
12 We have a specific reference to a protected witness who testified
13 before this Trial Chamber. That is a fact that we have to be very
14 careful about protecting from the wider public. I placed the name in
15 private session, but the fact that this witness has been told that a
16 protected witness testified, we have to be very, very careful about,
17 Mr. President, if we're gone to continue on this line. That very fact, I
18 think, can obviously create a danger. But if we're going to continue
19 with further questions, number one, they need to be in private session
20 for sure, because of the protected nature of that other witness. I
21 understand it's very difficult to examine this witness without any
22 reference to that protected witness, but we have to be extremely careful.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Protective measures mean not to give the identity
24 to the public, including other witnesses. This is always the problem.
25 Only the parties and the Chamber should know their real identity. If
1 everybody, including Mr. Tolimir and the Defence, can bear that in mind,
2 I think we should try to continue in that way as Mr. Thayer supposed.
3 Would you agree, Mr. Tolimir?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I agree.
5 I believe Mr. Thayer will agree, too, that both the Defence and the
6 Chamber need to know exactly how old the person was in 1995 and whether
7 he was a minor, as is alleged here.
8 The Prosecutor probably knows that, given that the person
9 involved appeared as their witness. We don't need to go into private
10 session for that.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, in the presence of this witness, you
12 can, of course, ask the witness if he knows more about the age of this
13 young man. But to put other information to him will not help you. That
14 can be done in the absence of the witness, I think.
15 Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, the way obviously we proceeded
17 with Defence counsel in the prior case was simply to refer to another
18 witness in this case testified that, without identifying, obviously, who
19 exactly that witness was. And that's the minimum that we should be able
20 to do to protect the witness's identity.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that. The Court Usher
22 will be asked to tell the witness to take on the earphones again.
23 Sir, sorry for this interruption. There was a need for a
24 discussion among the parties.
25 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on. We are in open session.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 I cannot ask this question in open session, and I don't think
3 that we are trying to protect the identity of that witness from this
4 witness. I really see no reason for Mr. Thayer to hide that, since those
5 two men were together and they know each other. This witness knows the
6 identity of the other witness.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not the question, I think, Mr. Tolimir,
8 because --
9 Sir, can you please again take off your microphones [sic] for a
10 moment. Thank you.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the issue in a nutshell is that this
14 witness ought not to be told that that other witness in fact testified.
15 They may have met in 1995, but the fact that that other witness came and
16 testified before this Trial Chamber should not be revealed to this
18 Now, whether this witness has found out that information through
19 some other means, I have no idea. But the whole purpose of the
20 protective measures is to protect, as Mr. President you've already said,
21 not only the public but other witnesses knowing that other witnesses have
22 come, if they are protected. Just like we wouldn't reveal this witness's
23 identity to another witness who might come and testify. We would not do
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we heard from this witness that he
1 doesn't know if this other witness is still alive, that he was looking
2 for him. And it should not be revealed what happened in the meantime, in
3 the last 15 years, to this other witness. It is not -- it can't be our
4 purpose to give this information to this witness. We don't know the
5 result, we don't know what will happen to the other witness, to this
6 witness, if they would be identified to each other. Because giving a
7 pseudonym as a protective measures means that other witnesses don't know
8 that other -- that they gave evidence in the courtroom in this trial.
9 Only the parties and participants and, of course, the Chamber knows that.
10 Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: And as long as the witness is not able to listen, I
12 can tell the Trial Chamber --
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, please continue.
16 MR. THAYER: I can tell the Trial Chamber, as an officer of the
17 court, that my understanding is that this witness knows that the other
18 witness is alive. He -- he has been told that, because he has asked us
19 that because he wanted to know. And we have told him, it's my
20 understanding, that, indeed, that witness is alive. My understanding is
21 we have never confirmed that he has actually been a witness in this case
22 or any other case. But just so the Trial Chamber understands, my
23 understanding is that this witness knows that that boy, that young man
24 that came and testified, is alive and that he had wanted to meet him.
25 But that's as far as it's gone.
1 So I just wanted to fill in the Trial Chamber on that portion of
2 the story so you have a fuller picture. And I can represent that to the
3 Trial Chamber from my knowledge.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. This is helpful
5 information. One moment, please.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher is again asked to help the
8 witness take on the earphones again, please.
9 THE ACCUSED: Please, please, please.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Wait a moment, please.
11 Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two claims have been
13 brought forward here: First that he doesn't know whether the witness is
14 alive; that's the first claim. And the second claim is that he was a
15 minor at the time.
16 I think that the Prosecution should show the Trial Chamber the
17 documents about this witness because he testified here. And then we
18 could all see whether he was minor at the time or not. That's something
19 that this witness cannot know by himself.
20 I certainly do not intend to reveal anything, but I also don't
21 want anything to be secret that does not need to be secret. I think that
22 all this data should be revealed here.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we are dealing with a very serious matter
24 at the moment. First I would like to check if we are in public or in
25 private session.
1 We are in public session. I would suggest that the witness
2 leaves the courtroom until we have this problem resolved.
3 Sir, we must have a sort break to discuss some procedural matters
4 in your absence. Please follow the Court Usher and leave the courtroom
5 for a moment, and we will call you back after we have discussed this
7 Thank you very much.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if we may go into private session,
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 11225-11227 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Sir, our apologies for getting you out of the courtroom and then
2 back to the courtroom, but these are the procedures which we have to
4 May I put a simple question to you. We were talking about a
5 young man at the age of 16 in 1995, as you described him. In 2005 you
6 indicated that you didn't know about his fate, if he was still alive or
7 not. What is your knowledge today?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None whatsoever.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you know if he is alive or not?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard, I know that he's
11 alive. But I don't know ... you know.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who told you that he is alive?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was somebody from the
14 international police who told me that this person was alive and well.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you mean by "international police"?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You know, the foreign police that
17 we have there. I mean, those who were there at the time. It was them
18 who told me that he was alive.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where did that happen? Where did you meet these
20 people from the international police?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in Tuzla.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And when did that happened?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. When was it?
24 I think it was when I was giving the statement. Approximately then. I
25 gave the statement in December in - what was it? - 2004. It was around
1 about then.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have seen some written statements of you this
3 afternoon, and the latest one was from 2nd December, 2005, taking --
4 taken by the Bosnia and Herzegovinian Office of the Prosecutor. Are you
5 referring to this statement?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I refer to this statement as
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you mean that the Prosecutor of the BiH is
9 international police? Is that the same or are they different bodies?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are talking about two different
11 bodies. But they both relate to this business, and I heard it through
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, I don't think anything about this body as
14 international police. Was it Interpol, what we know as Interpol? Was it
15 a Bosnian or Serb body, a body from the Republika Srpska? Can you tell
16 us from which institution these people came who told you about the fate
17 of this young man?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were foreigners. Foreign
19 police. International police. I don't know on what basis they were
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was an interpreter present when you talked to
22 them and gave evidence?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you recall which language they used?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably English; I don't know.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it possible that these people came from the
2 International Tribunal, from this institution, here in The Hague?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't believe so. I don't know.
4 Maybe they were. But nobody introduced them to me. They just told that
5 they were international police, EUPM.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that.
7 Judge Nyambe has an additional question.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: How exactly did you come to start discussing the
9 boy with this organisation, whether it's BiH or international police?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was in Tuzla doing certain
11 things, and that's when I went to talk to them.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: What certain things?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean?
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Well, you just said that -- I asked you in what
16 circumstances you came to be talking about this boy with the police,
17 whether BiH or international police. And you told me that "I went in
18 Tuzla doing certain things, and that's when I went to talk to them."
19 So I wanted to know, if you say, what things were you talking
20 about? Did they call you, did you just go there yourself? Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went there on my own. And I also
22 wanted to ask about him because there was some indicia; some people told
23 me he was alive, some people told me he wasn't. And to tell the truth,
24 if he was alive, I would felt sorry if he wasn't alive any further.
25 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I hope the questions of the Chamber
2 helped you to have a foundation for your further cross-examination.
3 Please go ahead.
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, yes.
6 MR. THAYER: While we're on this subject, if I can just say that
7 in the witness's prior testimony, which has now been admitted into
8 evidence, this topic is addressed directly, starting at transcript
9 page 4145, going all the way to 4150. This specific series of events,
10 and generally these issues are addressed there, as they are in the
11 2 December 2005 statement which we had on the screen as well. In the
12 section I brought to his attention.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Tolimir.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, can you tell us clearly, were you a member of the
18 military or a member of the police? Here, during the testimony, it
19 wasn't quite clear.
20 A. First, I was a member of the military, until August 1994. After
21 that, I was transferred; I went to work for the MUP.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, were you the active or the reserve
23 force of the MUP?
24 A. I was the reserve force. But I was attached to the active force,
25 which means that I performed all the duties that the active force was
2 Q. I apologise for not asking you precisely in my first question.
3 When we are talking about the events in 1995, when you were in
4 the so-called action to stop the Muslim column which moved out of
5 Srebrenica towards the territory of your defence, were you then in the
6 reserve or in the active force, and where exactly were you then?
7 A. I was in the reserve force, and I was somewhere around Snagovo.
8 You know, when you go up from Zvornik past the hospital, it was about two
9 or three kilometres from Zvornik. We didn't go any further.
10 Q. Thank you. Were you in Bijeljina before you were sent to
12 A. I don't believe so. I wasn't.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just if we're going to start talking
15 more specifically about particular locations, I just want to suggest that
16 we may need to go into private session before we cross the line.
17 I don't know where General Tolimir is going, but I just want to
18 put everybody on the alert.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you tell us, before you were sent to this particular
23 assignment, were you in your police unit at the place where you were
24 working at the time, or were you in the place where you performed this
1 A. I was in my own place before I went to perform this assignment.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, were you accompanied by your
3 commander, whose name is mentioned in your statement, when you went to
4 perform this assignment?
5 A. No. He didn't go with me.
6 Q. Thank you. So was he, your commander, able to issue orders to
7 you in the field if he wasn't with you, present, when you went to perform
8 that task?
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you tell me, when you went to perform this assignment there,
13 did you get another commander who commanded you during the performance --
14 while performing this assignment?
15 A. Well, there was this guy who used to be a commander, the brigade
16 commander. He went with us there. But he didn't give us any specific
17 order. Or maybe he did, but I'm not aware of that.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, did you work in accordance to the
19 order issued by your commander from your place, your police station, or
20 according to the orders of this person to whom you were attached and to
21 who then issued the order? Maybe you were subordinated to something.
22 A. Well, our commander issued us an order. Nothing specific was
23 ordered to us there at the site.
24 Q. My question is, actually: Did you get specific assignments what
25 you were supposed to from the commander of your police station, or were
1 you supposed to get such instructions from the one to who you were
2 resubordinated for the performing of that assignment?
8 Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, we just need a redaction at
10 page 57, line 3. It might be line 5 on -- on the Trial Chamber's screen.
11 But there's a specific reference to a location.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that will be redacted.
13 Mr. Tolimir, please put your question you were going to ask the
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I don't know what my mistake was because -- but I don't need to
18 know either.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was not your mistake.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber whether there were only police
22 officers from your station to perform that assignment or were there
23 others from other police stations?
24 A. There were police officers from other police stations too.
25 Q. Thank you. Well, how did they go about it then? Did everybody
1 have the orders issued by their commanders, original commanders, or by
2 the commander to who they were resubordinated?
3 A. Probably they got their instructions from the commander when they
4 set out, or maybe they got them when they arrived at the site. I don't
6 Q. Thank you. I warned you, this is a court of law, and if you tell
7 me that the relevant thing was what was told to us when we arrived at the
8 army, or that the relevant thing was when we started throwing the
9 grenade, so please give me a clear answer.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between
11 question and answer, otherwise we really can't interpret.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, frankly I'm not sure what's going on.
14 But what I read is the accused warning the witness that this is a court
15 of law and then making a reference to throwing a grenade, and I'm not
16 sure what the basis is anywhere for either of those statements. I don't
17 think it's the accused's role to warn this witness about the fact that
18 this is a court of law.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I didn't understand that either. The whole
20 question is -- was unclear, in my view. And there I don't find any real
22 But, again, the request of the interpreters is to pause between
23 question and answer. And I would like to invite the witness to speak up
24 a bit to the microphone. Sometimes your voice is very low, and it's very
25 hard to hear you.
1 Mr. Tolimir, please continue. And put a question to the witness
2 which we can understand.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please tell us, would every police officer who had come from
6 different police stations in the RS have to do what he was told by the
7 commander to whom he was subordinated in combat or what he was told by
8 the chief of the station who sent him to that joint force?
9 A. Well, he would have to do what he was told in the field. That's
10 what he should do.
11 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you carried out the orders of
12 those commanders who commanded you daily in the field; yes or no?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Did the chiefs of the SJBs in your towns, because you were from
15 various towns, tell you what you were supposed to do in principle?
16 A. They gave us wrong information. They said that we were to mop up
17 the territory, that there would be people from the different stations,
18 and that there would be someone from the centre who -- to be in charge.
19 Q. Thank you. You have just used the term "mopping up." Can you
20 tell us, were you sent out on the assignment to prevent the passage of
21 the convoy from Srebrenica from coming -- from coming behind our backs or
22 mopping up the terrain?
23 A. As far as I understood, it was to mop up the terrain.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you prevent the enemy from piercing the front
25 line and coming up behind our backs? I mean the Zvornik Brigade.
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his previous
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have a big problem with this kind of
5 conversation. The interpreters didn't catch because both speakers start
6 immediately after having heard the other speaker. You both have to
7 pause. It is very difficult for the interpreters.
8 The -- there was -- the last question for the witness:
9 "Did you prevent the enemy from piercing the front line and
10 coming up behind our backs? I mean the Zvornik Brigade."
11 That was the question of Mr. Tolimir.
12 Could you answer this question?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please answer the question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had no contact with the military
16 whatsoever there.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The units from the police stations that made up one unit, did
21 these police officers have the assignment to protect the town of Zvornik
22 from those who were coming from the direction of Srebrenica or did they
23 have another assignment?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you get instructions as to what you were supposed
1 to protect, the back of the unit that was defending itself toward Nezluk
2 or the citizens in the places where they lived? Thank you.
3 A. We couldn't protect anybody's back because we were in the
4 direction of Zvornik.
5 Q. All right. And did the enemy cross that line that you guarded?
6 A. Yes. They were -- there was some forest. I don't know where
7 they belonged. But that was my first time out there, so I didn't know my
8 way around.
9 Q. Thank you. And if the enemy were to pierce the lines that you
10 secured, could they encounter our army that defended itself toward Nezluk
11 and attacked them from the back?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... please,
13 please wait --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, probably they could.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... please wait
16 and pause. Not immediately give an answer.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Please tell us, did you hear or take part or see that part of the
19 convoy that you were to prevent from passing through passed through
20 anyway toward the units that defended itself against the enemy who was
21 coming from the direction of Nezluk?
22 A. No, I heard nothing of the kind.
23 Q. Thank you. And did you go about your assignment conscientiously,
24 and did you prevent the enemy from attacking our units from the back?
25 A. I think we did. We would certainly have held our section no
1 matter what.
2 Q. Apologise to the interpreters. Did your commander at the place
3 where -- from which you were deployed to your combat operation order you
4 that not even a fly may be allowed to pass through because he wanted to
5 prevent the situation where the enemy could come behind our back of our
6 units that were defending themselves? Yes or no?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you had to perform your task
9 conscientiously so that those whose backs you protected do not come to
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us take a look at page 3 now.
13 65 ter 06683, the Prosecution's 65 ter list. Page 3. Line 6.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... this should
15 not be broadcast.
16 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is now P2063, under seal. It should not be
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In English it's page 4
20 of document P2063. Line 5.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. We can see your answer here, where you say: "That not even a fly
23 must be allowed to -- to come out from there."
24 That was ordered by your commander, and I don't want to read out
25 his name.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was it that way?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you remember, in your statement, and you were asked also by
5 the Prosecutor about this, you understood this to mean that you had to
6 kill everybody. Couldn't it have meant that you were to prevent anybody
7 from passing through, rather than killing everybody? Thank you.
8 A. Yes, prevent too. But you know how it is in the field.
9 Q. Thank you. If that meant that you were meant to prevent enemy
10 soldiers to cross the line that you held, does it mean that you had to
11 kill everybody or keep them from -- from -- or prevent them from crossing
12 the line? Thank you.
13 A. I don't know how to answer. It was a kind of prevention. If
14 they had shot at us, then we would have shot back. They were in front of
15 us, the small group. And about the rest of them, I don't know.
16 Q. Thank you. We'll talk about the small group later.
17 Could we please show D155 to the witness from e-court to see what
18 those who passed by the line you are meant to guard did. And it came up
19 behind the back of the forces that were on the front line. Thank you.
20 I'm talking about a document dated 16 July 1995. We can see it
21 here. It's a report on the situation in Srebrenica. It was sent through
22 the security department. Let us see pages 2 and 3. You will see to who
23 it was sent. It was sent to Alija Izetbegovic, but it's not really
24 legible here.
25 And here it says -- down there you see the heading, the Army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, General Staff of the army. So it's the Army of BH
2 who -- that sent it on 16 July.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And could we please go to the
4 following page. They are sending it to President Alija Izetbegovic.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And take a look at the last paragraph, paragraph 3. We can see
7 it in Serbian. It's page 3 in English.
8 We can see what it says:
9 "The units of the 28th Division of the KoV are pulling out of
10 Srebrenica while still fighting. The units of the 28th Division of Kov
11 have remained compact. In the temporarily occupied territory they have
12 scored success after success. They are inflicting heavy losses on the
13 aggressor. They have eight Chetniks (alive) in captivity. Units of the
14 28th Division of Kov have linked up with the infiltrated units of the
15 2nd Corps. The joint forces have continued fighting in the temporarily
16 occupied territory. It is expected that they will fully link up with
17 these units soon. Activities are under way to exploit the success of the
18 units making the breakthrough."
19 Now my question is the following: Did you hear later, if not
20 then, that there was a breakthrough and that there were even prisoners,
21 as Mr. Delic says here? Thank you.
22 A. No. We didn't know about this document at all.
23 Q. Thank you. I believe that you didn't. But did you hear that
24 there was fighting and that this unit was fighting its way out of
25 Srebrenica to the Muslim-controlled territory at Nezluk? Thank you.
1 A. No. I didn't know anything about these things.
2 Q. Did you know whether our forces had losses or soldiers taken
3 prisoner and injured soldiers on that line of which the commander said
4 that not even a fly can be allowed to pass through?
5 A. No, we didn't know a thing.
6 Q. We'll see another document now, which is D176.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please display it.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. While we're waiting, this is another document by the Muslim army,
10 so you don't get the impression we're talking -- we're giving our own
11 story. It is dated 27 July 1995, immediately after these events, and
12 it's entitled, "Chronology of Events." And we see that it was sent to
13 the attention of Commander General Rasim Delic.
14 It says: "Enclosed please find the complete chronology of events
15 from the" --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you are quoting from this text, I see
17 Mr. Thayer on his feet.
18 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm just wondering if there is a list
19 of cross-examination documents. We -- we haven't received one. I
20 understand sometimes these things happen, but we haven't gotten a list.
21 I don't know how long the list is. If it's just these two documents,
22 okay, we can deal with that. But if there's going to be more, we'd like
23 to have a list, please.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if the Chamber has received such a
25 list. I don't have one with me.
1 Mr. Tolimir, can you clarify that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this document was
3 not forwarded to the Prosecution. However, given that the Prosecution
4 tried to show this combat activity as a mop-up operation rather than
5 stopping the enemy, I had to show these documents to illustrate that
6 these front line activities were of a different nature. It was not a
7 mop-up operation. By your leave I would like to use them.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,
9 this is -- was not the problem which Mr. Thayer raised. The problem is a
10 different one.
11 I think we didn't receive, as we normally get, a list of
12 documents to be used during your cross-examination. This is a normal
13 requirement. Did the Defence send a list or not?
14 Perhaps Mr. Gajic can help us.
15 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was our original
16 intention to only rely on the documents which are otherwise on the OTP
17 list which they intended to use with the witness. However, during the
18 examination, some issues came up. That is why Mr. Tolimir is now relying
19 on another document which was not on the list.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: On the list of the Prosecution, you mean.
21 We would appreciate if we can get an information now how many and
22 which documents you are going to use to enable the Prosecution to prepare
23 the -- the re-examination. This is the normal procedure.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] This is the last one.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's fine --
1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] This will be the last document,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's fine.
4 Just go ahead, Mr. Tolimir. Thank you very much.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
6 apologise to you and the OTP, given that we didn't notify them of these
7 documents. That is why I chose to show these documents in a collective
8 fashion so as not to have to go one by one. This document was sent by
9 the commander of the 2nd Corps.
10 Could we please go to the next page. Thank you.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You can see the chronology of events of the 3rd of June. You can
13 see the dates. We see that it ends with the 8th of July on this page.
14 Now we can move on to the next so that you can see all the things that
15 took place at the time. As a plain soldier, of course, you were not as
16 familiar with the situation as the commanders were. Now we can see the
17 9th of July, the 10th of July, the 11th.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please, to see the date
19 to which witness is actually testifying.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We see the 13th and the 14th of July.
22 You mentioned the 14th of July here. Is that correct? Did it
23 all take place on the 14th or the 15th of July?
24 A. I don't know the exact date anymore. But the 14th or the 15th.
25 Q. Thank you. Let us see what the situation was at the front lines
1 on the 14th of July. I quote: "The 24th Land Forces Division" -- and
2 here we have strictly confidential number. It is actually the Muslim
3 24th Division. I apologise I missed something.
4 "On 14 July 1995, the 2nd Corps command sent to the commands of
5 the 21st, 22nd, and 24th Division of the Land Forces orders," strictly
6 confidential number as stipulated, "to prepare and send volunteer
7 companies to conduct offensive combat operations in the area of
8 responsibility of the 24th Division of the Land Forces with the aim of
9 providing assistance and co-ordinate action in the combat actions of the
10 28th Division of the Land Forces, which is moving in a breakthrough
11 towards the area of responsibility of the 24th Division. On the same
12 day, the 2nd Corps commander issued a task to the 24th Division commander
13 to deploy and plan a co-ordinated action with the units of the
14 28th Division that had set out to break through."
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page, please.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. We saw what happened on the 24th. Since you were not certain of
18 the date, look at the 12th line. It says the 15th of July. I quote:
19 "In the morning on the 15th of July, 1995, in the general area of
20 Snagovo and Glumina, significant combat took place and we learned from
21 counter-electronic warfare units that some 28th Division units were
22 engaged in combat with the aggressor. At the same time, in the area of
23 responsibility of the 24th Division, following the order of the 2nd Corps
24 commander," we see what the number of the order was, "all units of the
25 242nd Motorised Brigade returned, as well as the 24th Crni Vukovi unit,
1 which until then had been deployed in the area of responsibility of the
2 110th Light Brigade. And in the afternoon, on the 15th of July, units of
3 the 21st, 22nd, and 25th Division, a total of 876 [as interpreted]
4 troops, were relocated to the area of responsibility of the 24th Division
5 at the 2nd Corps, orders strictly confidential," we see the numbers, "so
6 that the 24th Division command, together with its free forces, had 1.430
7 troops at its disposal.
8 "From 1200 hours on the 15th of July," et cetera, "from the
9 firing position of Meskovici, Zvornik was fired on," meaning that it --
10 the fire came from the territory controlled by the
11 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We see the order numbers.
12 We now move on to the 16th, but let me ask you this first. Were
13 you in any of the location referred to in these Muslim reports about the
14 activities of their units towards Zvornik, as well as the activities of
15 their artillery supporting those breaking through to Zenica?
16 A. No.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, that was a very long question. In
18 fact, a long quote and a very short answer. But we must have our second
19 break now and resume in half an hour.
20 Before we do that, Mr. Thayer has the floor.
21 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we've -- we have a witness who's been
22 on stand by. Just wondering whether we can release that witness. I
23 don't know what the Defence's remaining cross estimate is.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you give us an estimation, Mr. Tolimir? Have
25 you any idea?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If
2 Mr. Thayer will have no re-examination, I will be finished with this
3 witness today. There are still some key questions that I need to put to
4 this witness, given the fact that he changed some of his statements.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. In that case, the next
6 witness should be released, Mr. Thayer.
7 We adjourn and resume quarter past 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue your
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sir, we have now seen that almost three divisions of the BH army
15 were attacking our forces from the front line in the
16 Baljkovci [as interpreted] region in front of Snagovo where you were and
17 one division was attacking from the back, the 28th, which was making
18 breakthrough from Srebrenica.
19 Here's my question: Did the VRS which was preventing the division
20 from Srebrenica from passing through by its activity contribute to
21 alleviate the pressure on the forces on the front line toward Nezluk?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. And was it your task to prevent the 28th Division from passing
24 through so it doesn't reach enemy territory? Thank you.
25 A. We didn't know anything about that.
1 Q. But what did you know? What did you know to be your task?
2 A. Nobody put it to us the way you -- you just have. We -- they
3 just sent us there and ...
4 Q. Thank you. So you were not familiar with your exact task when
5 you were out there in the field?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Thank you. And did the chiefs of the police stations of your
8 original units to who the request was sent happen to know which area you
9 were to seal off and prevent the enemy from passing through? Did they
11 A. Well, probably they did, but we didn't.
12 Q. Thank you. Did your commander know, when he said that not even a
13 fly may be allowed to pass through, did he know that you were defending
14 the back of the unit that was defending itself from the three divisions
15 that we saw mentioned in this document?
16 A. Well, probably, but we didn't know. He may have known.
17 Q. Thank you. Was your commander a conscientious commander when it
18 comes to carrying out tasks? Thank you.
19 A. Well, in some things he was conscientious, I think. And that the
20 two of us didn't get along very well was another matter.
21 Q. Thank you for this honest answer.
22 Tell us now, the soldier whom you brought to your police station
23 from the front line, did your commander demand that you kill him or that
24 you take him to the POW centre?
25 A. We took him to our station and it was up to him to decide.
1 Q. Thank you. When he decided that he should be sent to Batkovici,
2 as you say in your statement, was that his decision or yours?
3 A. Well, I was subordinate. He was my boss.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Superior not
6 Could the accused please repeat his question, please.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat your
8 question. I think you were overlapping again and there were many
9 mistakes in the transcript, if I'm not mistaken.
10 Mr. Gajic.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] On page 71, in line 13, it says
12 "Bosnia." Yes, I was -- oh, I see now it's been corrected. Yes, he was
13 my boss. Now it's all right.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I would like to mention that in line 5 of the
15 current page there's the beginning of the question of Mr. Tolimir.
16 I would like to remind both speakers again to pause between
17 questioning and answering.
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will
20 repeat the question that overlapped.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did your commander act correctly when he sent the prisoner to the
23 POW centre or camp at Batkovic? Thank you.
24 A. Yes, I think so.
25 Q. Was this prisoner later registered and exchanged, as far as you
1 know? Do you know whether he was exchanged later and whether he left to
2 BH army-controlled territory?
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Thank you. But a minute ago you said that you learned from the
5 international police that he was alive and well, or, rather a short time
6 ago. Does that mean that he was exchanged? Thank you.
7 A. Yes. It was a considerable time later though.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you visit the prisoner while he was at Batkovic
9 camp? Thank you.
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you, Mr. Tolimir. You --
12 Sir, you were asked by Mr. Tolimir: Do you know whether he was
13 exchanged later?
14 And now I see you answered this question. Thank you very much.
15 Go ahead, please, Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Please tell us now about your statement which was quoted by the
19 Prosecutor and which was amended several times and changed.
20 Did you give that statement based on your assumptions of the
21 actions of the commander or based on precise orders received?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Because, as we all know, there are a number of
24 statements we're talking about, it might be helpful if General Tolimir
25 specifies which statement he's referring to.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you do that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
3 certainly can. I had in mind the statements in Bijeljina and in the
4 Muslim part of Sarajevo, as well as the statement in Tuzla. Those three
5 statements. All signed by the witness. I don't have enough time to
6 discuss it at length as to why it was done in that way.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I'm just asking the witness whether he provided those statements
9 based on his presumptions or based on clear orders that were issued?
10 A. Well, they were based on what I thought about that.
11 Q. Thank you. Did anyone in Sarajevo or Tuzla promise you anything,
12 any kind of compromise or an arrangement to be made, so that you would
13 provide such statements?
14 A. No. No one did any such thing.
15 Q. Thank you. Is it for that reason that you went to Sarajevo and
16 Tuzla, in order to provide the statements, and did it all have to do with
17 the issue of the workplace you were promised and your livelihood?
18 A. Well, yes, all that and ...
19 Q. Thank you. Tell us whether you saw for yourself anyone
20 committing illegal acts such as killing enemy soldiers? Can you mention
21 anyone by name?
22 A. No, I cannot. I don't know of that.
23 Q. Thank you. Were all the statements and assertions made therein
24 about the alleged victims given based on your presumptions and rumours
25 you heard, or were they based on what you could see yourself?
1 A. Only based on what I could see. There is some hearsay, but I
2 don't take anything for granted, unless I saw it.
3 Q. I just asked whether you saw anyone killing anyone else.
4 A. Yes, I did. But I don't know who that person was.
5 Q. Thank you. Did it take place as part of the combat your unit was
6 engaged in or was it in non-combat circumstances?
7 A. The place I was, was out of combat. There was no combat at that
8 time where I was.
9 Q. Were you performing a task, since you say that it was a
10 non-combat situation?
11 A. Yes. We were on an assignment.
12 Q. Was it around the clock that you were performing that assignment
13 or only in day-time?
14 A. In the course of the day. In day-time.
15 Q. Thank you. Was it necessary because of that to again search the
16 terrain to make sure that there were no enemy forces left over?
17 A. No. We were just there during the day. And in the evening we
18 would go back to our initial positions for two or three days. And then
19 we went home.
20 Q. Did it always involve a single location at the front line or did
21 you move about?
22 A. We were only at that one location.
23 Q. Thank you. If you were performing all of your tasks at a single
24 location, could you have, indeed, participated in a mop-up operation, as
25 you stated, in order to prevent the enemy from breaking through?
1 A. We were in that one location. We didn't go any further afield.
2 Q. Were you assigned tasks on the spot by the commander so as not to
3 allow any armed forces of the 28th Division to break through your
5 A. We received such tasks. But, luckily enough, they didn't come
6 our way. I don't know in what direction they went.
7 Q. Thank you. Save for promises, were you offered any benefits or
8 positions in order to change your statements this way or that way?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Can we conclude that no one had anything to win in
11 that situation or that there was nothing that -- no gain for you in the
12 changing of those statements?
13 A. No. Neither myself nor anyone else could benefit from those
15 Q. Thank you. Did the fact that you changed statements a number of
16 times carry with it a possibility of creating consequences for those
17 involved in your statements?
18 A. Well, one could say so.
19 Q. Could we say, then, that no one suffered any consequences based
20 on what you stated?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir please repeat the last
22 question. It was a compound question which was not understood.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked you to repeat
24 the last question because they didn't catch the content of it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How should we put this, Aleksander?
1 Thank you.
2 I asked whether anyone suffered any consequences because the
3 statements were changed, be it before a national court or before this
4 Tribunal, and the witness answered no, if I recall that correctly.
5 Perhaps he can provide his answer again.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did anyone suffer any consequences before national courts in
8 Bosnia or in the RS or before the International Tribunal because of that?
9 A. I don't think so.
10 Q. Were you content to find out that the person whom you saved in
11 wartime remained alive?
12 A. Yes, I'm quite happy because of that. And I believe I've been
13 quite realistic in all this. I mean no harm to anyone. Such was the
15 Q. When we sum it all up, is it better that all this was concluded
16 without any consequences for you or anyone else, irrespective of the fact
17 that you were not provided the job you had been offered or had not
18 obtained any material gain?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you for having come here and testified. I won't put any
21 further questions so as to allow some time for the Prosecutor to examine
22 you, if necessary. Thank you for everything you said, and thank you for
23 not causing harm to anyone. Thank you again. May God bless you. Have a
24 safe journey back home.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence have no
1 further questions of this witness, and we don't want to keep the witness
2 until tomorrow because he has been waiting to testify for a while.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
5 I have only one single question for the question at the moment.
6 On page 72, lines 16 and 17, you were asked by Mr. Tolimir:
7 "Does that mean that he" - and he was referring to this young
8 man - "was exchanged?"
9 And then you answered: "Yes. It was a considerable time later
11 How do you know that he was exchanged?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found out that he is alive.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his last sentence. It
14 was inaudible.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you move a little bit further to the
16 microphone, please, and speak up a bit and repeat the last part of your
17 answer because the interpreters didn't catch it.
18 You answered my question.
19 "I found out that he is alive."
20 How did you find out that he was exchanged? Or is it an
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were rumours,
23 assumptions, and such.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 Sorry, Judge Nyambe has a question.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
2 Carrying on, on the issue of the young man you moved from the
3 area back to your police post, who did you hand him over when you get --
4 when you got there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We handed him over in the station,
6 in our police station.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Do you know to whom in particular?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had our commander. There was no
9 one else to hand him over to.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Is this the same commander who gave you the
11 instructions when you were going out to the field?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?
15 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer
17 Q. Let me just follow up on that last question from
18 Honourable Judge Nyambe.
19 When you returned to your police station with the boy and, as you
20 just said, handed him over to your commander, did you do that alone, or
21 did you do that with someone else?
22 A. Together with the rest.
23 Q. And when you say "the rest," to whom are you referring?
24 A. I have in mind the people I went with, our group.
25 Q. And had there been any decision of any kind beforehand to bring
1 the boy in as a group, or was that something that just happened by
2 accident when you returned to the station?
3 A. By -- by chance.
4 Q. And when you brought this boy to your commander, can you tell the
5 Trial Chamber - and please don't feel shy about repeating as much as you
6 can remember of your commander's exact words; we're all grown-ups here -
7 so what did your commander say to you when, as you said before, he got
8 angry and attacked you for bringing back the boy alive?
9 What did he say to you?
10 A. You mean when we arrived?
11 Q. Yes, sir. When you arrived and you handed the boy over to him,
12 when he saw that you had brought this boy back alive, what did he say to
14 A. He was very upset with us for having done that.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last sentence. He
16 was inaudible.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to remind you to speak up a bit and to
18 speak into the microphone. The interpreters didn't hear you. Please
19 repeat the last part of your answer.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was very upset with us for
21 having done that. He said, What do you think Bando [as interpreted] will
22 have to say about that? It was a man who had some sort of a paramilitary
23 unit of his.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. And did he make any reference to the order he had given you?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what your commander said to you
3 when you brought that boy back alive regarding the order he had given
5 A. Why did you do that? Why did you bring him? You knew what the
6 orders were.
7 Q. Now, sir, just picking up on something that General Tolimir asked
8 you about, he asked you about your commander, and you told the Court that
9 despite the personal differences, the disagreement, that you had with
10 your commander, you considered him to be conscientious.
11 Do you remember that question and answer from a few minutes ago?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Let me just ask you a couple of questions.
14 This commander that we've been talking about, in your experience
15 working for him as a subordinate, was he a commander who followed orders
16 that he was given, or was he a commander who did not follow orders he was
18 A. Well, I think he followed the orders in keeping with his job.
19 Q. And in your experience working for your commander, did you ever
20 know him to fail to carry out any order he was given?
21 A. Well, as far as I know, he didn't. But I didn't really move in
22 those circles. I wouldn't real know.
23 MR. THAYER: And if we could go into private session, just for my
24 last question, Mr. President, please.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 11261-11262 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 Sir, this concludes your examination here in The Hague, in the
9 Tribunal, in this case. The Chamber would like to thank you for your
10 attendance here, that you came to The Hague and provided us with your
11 knowledge. Now you are free to return to your home and to your normal
13 Thank you very much.
14 We should go into private --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thanks to everybody.
16 [Closed session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to adjourn and resume tomorrow morning at
1 9.00 in this courtroom.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day
5 of March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.