1 Tuesday, 15 March 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
8 Yesterday I raised a matter in relation to a request of the
9 Defence counsel from another trial. Yesterday evening I learnt the
10 problem is not a problem of the parties of this trial but the Registry is
11 working on it, and I would like to invite the Registrar to update us.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Your Honour, the Registry respectfully submits the following. On
14 10th February 2011 hearing in the Tolimir case both parties, the
15 Prosecution and Defence orally submitted that they have no objection to
16 have any document or submission disclosed to the Popovic et al case, in
17 accordance with the Tolimir Trial Chamber public Decision on Defence
18 request for access to confidential materials in the Prosecutor versus
19 Tolimir, dated 2nd June 2010.
20 Following the parties' submission, the Registry started gradually
21 preparing the confidential inter-party material from the Tolimir case
22 with the 10th February 2011 as the end date of the compilation. The
23 Registry advised the Chamber of its intention to file a certificate on
24 the case record once the disclosure has been completed. In the meantime,
25 the guidance from the Chamber has been requested with regard to who the
1 recipients of the disclosure should be, considering that the decision
2 grants access to the accused in the Popovic et al case. At the moment
3 the Popovic et al case is in the appeals phase, and the accused from the
4 trial phase have now different status than they had at the time when the
5 decision was issued. Considering that the disclosure material has been
6 finalized in the meantime, and in light of the interpretation of the 2nd
7 June 2010 decision provided by the Chamber, the Registry will proceed
8 with the distribution with today's date.
9 Thank you very much, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yesterday I requested the parties to submit
11 written updates. This is no longer necessary.
12 Mr. Gajic.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this morning, in
14 keeping with your instructions yesterday, the Defence submitted a short
15 submission. We won't withdraw it, because I believe it may be of some
16 use in future. We are aware of our standing obligation to monitor the
17 material and inform the Registry if something needs not be disclosed. We
18 hope to submit some material shortly that fall under Rule 70, or perhaps
19 under some other rule that may not be open to access by the
20 Popovic Defence teams.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that information.
22 Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
24 The witness is ready, and I would request a caution as we have
25 been doing. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
2 We go into closed session for a moment to enable the witness to
3 enter the courtroom.
4 The witness should be brought in.
5 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir --
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. We have to wait for a moment.
14 Please stand and be patient.
15 Good morning again to you, sir. Welcome to the courtroom. Would
16 you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Thank you.
19 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
20 and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not the first time that you are giving
24 evidence here in the Tribunal. I think you know the procedure. There
25 are protective measures in place for you, a pseudonym; your real name
1 will not be broadcast, and nobody outside the courtroom will know it.
2 And there's a face distortion in place.
3 On the request of the Prosecution, I have to caution you, and I
4 would like to read out a rule of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
5 In Rule 90(E), we have the following rule, and I quote:
6 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
7 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
8 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
9 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
10 offence other than false testimony."
11 Sir, did you understand that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in full.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. McCloskey for the Prosecution has questions for you.
15 Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 WITNESS: PW-075
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness.
21 Could we first bring up 65 ter 7209. And, of course, no
23 And, as I'm sure you remember, keep your eyes out, hopefully you
24 can read that. Is -- is that you, Witness?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would then offer the sheet into evidence,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7209 shall be
5 assigned exhibit number P2064, admitted under seal. Thank you.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. And, Witness, do you recall testifying back in November of 2006
8 in the Popovic et al case?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. And have you had a chance to listen to your testimony recently in
11 that case?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. And if you were asked the same questions, would your answers be
14 the same?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. All right. Thank you.
17 In that event, Mr. President, I would offer 65 ter 6484, a
18 transcript, and 6485, a transcript, into evidence?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both documents will be received. The first one
20 under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6484 shall be
22 assigned exhibit number P2065. Admitted under seal.
23 65 ter document 6485 shall be assigned exhibit number P2066.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. And as an associated exhibit admitted through the -- through this
2 witness, P0018, the Bratunac Brigade military police daily log, I would
3 offer that in -- or it's already in?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's already in evidence.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. I'm reminded of that.
6 Q. All right. And, Witness, have you gone over with the
7 investigators and myself a brief summary of your Popovic testimony?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. And did you assist us in getting -- making sure the summary was
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. I'm going to read that summary and just make sure
13 that it's correct when I'm -- you can either interrupt me if something is
14 wrong, or you can wait until the end to correct it.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: But could we go into private session just for the
16 first brief part of this.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
18 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness recalled that General Mladic,
5 Colonel Beara, General Krstic, Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Popovic, he
6 wasn't quite sure of the rank at the time, General Zivanovic,
7 Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Jankovic, he wasn't sure of his rank
8 either, and an officer named Kosoric arrived in the Bratunac area around
9 the time of the fall of the Srebrenica enclave, but he did not recall the
10 precise dates or times of their arrival.
11 On the first day that Bosnian Muslims were transported from
12 Potocari, the witness was in Potocari and saw women and children going in
13 a hurry from the area around the Dutch base in Potocari towards buses
14 parked outside. The Bratunac military police helped secure passage of
15 these buses, which left in the direction of Konjevic Polje. The witness
16 testified that the Bratunac military police were not involved in the
17 separation of the able-bodied men from the women and children.
18 On the second day of the transportation of women and children
19 from Potocari, the witness was ordered by Momir Nikolic to go to
20 Konjevic Polje in an armoured personnel carrier, or APC. On this trip,
21 the witness was accompanied by Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic. Shortly
22 after arriving at the Konjevic Polje intersection, Momir Nikolic directed
23 the witness to drive the APC back in the direction of Bratunac, following
24 a civilian police car. The witness, Mile Petrovic, and Momir Nikolic
25 followed the police car as it moved slowly back towards Bratunac. As
1 they drove in the APC, the witness could hear noise coming out of the
2 loud-speaker on the police car but the witness testified that he could
3 not make out what was being said. On their way towards Bratunac, two
4 Dutch Battalion soldiers appeared along the road and they were allowed to
5 get in the APC.
6 Shortly thereafter, the witness turned the APC around and drove
7 back towards Konjevic Polje. At about this time, two Muslims came from
8 the road side and also got in the APC. Upon their arrival to
9 Konjevic Polje in the APC, the witness saw some people who he testified
10 were probably Muslims gathered at that intersection. These people were
11 being directed by soldiers into a ruined building there, which is
12 currently a petrol station. The two Muslims that the witness had brought
13 to Konjevic Polje were placed in the ruined building along with the
15 The witness heard at the time that the Muslims who were held in
16 the building in Konjevic Polje were transferred to Bratunac, where they
17 were housed at the Vuk Karadzic school, the hangar behind the school, and
18 the civil engineering technical school, and in vehicles. Momir Nikolic
19 instructed the Bratunac military police to assist another unit in
20 securing the Muslims at the Vuk Karadzic school and other locations in
22 While at the Konjevic Polje intersection, the witness saw a
23 convoy of vehicles carrying women and children headed by a UN jeep arrive
24 from the direction of Bratunac. The convoy of vehicles stopped in
25 Konjevic Polje briefly and then continued in the direction of Milici.
1 After some time in Konjevic Polje, the witness, together with
2 Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic, set out in the APC back towards
3 Bratunac. After about 1 kilometre from the Konjevic Polje intersection,
4 they encountered a long column of Muslim men walking towards the
5 intersection that they had come from. The column was escorted by Serb
7 On the following day, the witness received an assignment from
8 Lieutenant-Colonel, or Colonel, Popovic, to take the APC and park the
9 vehicle at a point along the main road towards Konjevic Polje near the
10 headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade. While stopped at this location, a
11 fuel tank truck arrived. Mr. Popovic instructed the witness to fill up
12 the APC with fuel and to move the APC forward 1 kilometre up the road,
13 which the witness did. At that time, a large convoy of buses and trucks
14 formed behind the witness's APC. The witness estimated that each of the
15 buses in the column behind him contained 40 to 50 able-bodied men and one
16 VRS soldier. He was not able to say how many buses there were, as he was
17 not able to see the end of the column when he looked out the APC.
18 Mr. Popovic led the column of vehicles in a blue Golf followed by
19 the witness in the APC. They all travelled past Konjevic Polje and
20 Zvornik and stopped at a school after the intersection where they turned
21 left from the main road in the general direction towards Sapna. Upon
22 their arrival, the Bosnian Muslim men got out of the buses and were
23 directed to the school's gymnasium. The witness testified that he then
24 left the school area after approximately ten buses had emptied. The
25 witness testified that as he left the school area, Mr. Popovic told him
1 to stay at the school, but the witness did not follow Mr. Popovic's
2 instructions and went back to Bratunac.
3 The witness was aware that Muslim bodies that were previously
4 buried in the area around Bratunac were exhumed and taken in the
5 direction of Srebrenica. The road from Bratunac to Srebrenica was
6 secured by the Bratunac military police for this job. The witness was
7 aware that this job had been handled by the Main Staff. The witness
8 believed that he had heard from Momir Nikolic that Colonel Beara was
9 charged with the reburial task.
10 Q. Now, Witness, was that a correct account of your testimony?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. I'll just have some brief questions for you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. We better go into private session for
16 just this question.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
18 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. And in the --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment.
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. And in the normal course of command, who could give Momir Nikolic
25 A. The brigade commander, the Chief of Staff, and the head of
1 intelligence in the corps, or from the Main Staff. They could all issue
2 orders to Momir Nikolic.
3 Q. All right. And did you recall testifying in the last trial about
4 the military police duties regarding the check-points and convoys? Can
5 you tell us just a little bit about what the military police
6 responsibility was in that regard around the Srebrenica enclave.
7 A. The tasks of the military police regarding convoys were to man
8 the check-points at Zuti Most. The military police manned that
9 check-point, checking all the convoys going in and out of Srebrenica.
10 They also checked the papers accompanying those convoys.
11 Q. And who oversaw your work in checking those convoys and the
13 A. Momir Nikolic did.
14 Q. All right. Now, the -- that day that you've previously testified
15 that you went up in the APC with Momir Nikolic and Mile Petrovic, whose
16 APC was that?
17 A. That armoured vehicle used to belong to the UN. I think it was a
18 DutchBat vehicle.
19 Q. And what colour was it when you drove it to -- to Konjevic Polje
20 that day?
21 A. It was white.
22 Q. And did it have UN markings on it, aside from being white?
23 A. I think it said "UN" on it.
24 Q. And before heading off that day in that APC, did you see
25 Mr. Popovic anywhere, that very day?
1 A. I think he was in the brigade facility or in the compound.
2 Q. Well, you've described it in the past. You probably remember a
3 rather unique story about Mr. Popovic and General Mladic. Do you recall
4 what you said about that?
5 A. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
6 Q. Did you see General Mladic have some contact with Mr. Popovic?
7 A. I don't know whether it was at the time when he wanted to kick
8 Mr. Popovic, telling him, You're just lazing about. Go and do something.
9 Q. You said General Mladic wanted to kick Popovic. Did you see him
10 do that?
11 A. I saw him do that. Although I don't know whether it was on that
12 day or the day after. But I did see it.
13 Q. Okay.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Tolimir should have the floor.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May peace reign in this
16 house. I would like to greet everyone, including Mr. McCloskey, and
17 apologise for the interruption.
18 The witness did not say that General Mladic wanted to be rid of
19 Popovic. He said that he just kicked him. He didn't say that
20 General Mladic wanted to get rid of him.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And I -- the General must have heard
23 something in -- in B/C/S, because we've never heard anything in English
24 about General Mladic wanting to get rid of him, just kicking him. So
25 I -- be assured, there is no evidence that General Mladic wanted to get
1 rid of Popovic, so that must have been a miscommunication of some sort.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. We haven't heard anything like that.
3 And there's nothing in the transcript.
4 Please carry on.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
6 Q. Do you recall yesterday I showed you a photograph. I'm hoping to
7 show you the same photograph. It should be P00444. And I hope you'll be
8 able to see it on the screen.
9 And I'm going to ask -- ask you to draw something on it, if you
10 recognise it.
11 And blow that up to fill the screen. Okay.
12 Can you see that okay from -- you can stand up if there's a
14 A. I can see it.
15 Q. Do you recognise what this photo is of?
16 A. I think this is the intersection in Konjevic Polje.
17 Q. And do you see the -- the building that you saw the Muslims go
18 into that day you were at the intersection with the APC?
19 A. Yes, I can see it.
20 Q. If they could give you the pen and set that up so that it will
21 draw, I'll ask you to just circle it. But I think they have to hit a
22 switch or something?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. All right. And can you tell us what's at that intersection
1 A. Today, there's a gas station at the intersection.
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked photograph will be received as an
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this document shall be assigned
7 exhibit number P2067. Thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY:
9 Q. All right. And there's another photograph that you've been shown
10 over the years, P00061.
11 Can we put that up?
12 Okay. That should be up there now. Does that look familiar to
13 you, that photograph.
14 A. I think this is the school we went to when I followed Popovic and
15 the convoy followed me.
16 Q. Is there anything in this photo that you remember? Any of the
17 structures or anything like that?
18 A. I think it was as it is on the photograph. I remember next to
19 the school there was a wire fence in the direction of the gym, or an iron
20 fence. Between the wall and the fence, the people getting off the buses
21 went to the building.
22 Q. And where did you turn around? Where did you turn your -- your
23 APC around?
24 A. I don't know what location you mean. At the school? Or at some
25 later point? What do you mean, where I turned around?
1 Q. Yes, at that school area. Did you -- did you turn around at the
2 school area?
3 A. I turned around where the fence is, the closest fence to us. The
4 APC was facing the school. So basically I was in the same position that
5 this photograph was taken from. That is why I could see things. People
6 were getting off and filling up the clearing in front of the school.
7 Q. Okay. Could you just mark with an X where you -- the place you
8 turned around, if you can see it on this photo?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer that into evidence, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked photograph will be received as an
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2068. Thank you, Your Honours.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I have nothing further, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Tolimir, you may now commence your cross-examination.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Once
19 again let me say peace unto this house, and may this day in court and the
20 entire trial reflect God's will, and may the outcome be as God wishes and
21 not as I wish. I wish the witness a pleasant stay amongst us during his
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to add the following: You
25 and I speak the same language. Here, in front of us, there is a screen
1 with the English translation of what we are saying. When I stop speaking
2 and when the cursor stops as it was a moment ago, then you start
3 speaking, so that we don't overlap so that every word that we speak can
4 be recorded.
5 Do you understand?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Let us now begin with the first document the Defence
8 wishes to tender, P01297. It's a rule-book of the military police. And
9 we want to show it so that the Trial Chamber and everybody sees what the
10 authority of the military police was. I'm not showing this to try to
11 prove that you did or didn't do anything. I just want to show what was
12 supposed to be done.
13 Take a look at page 6 in Serbian, which is page 7 in English.
14 Thank you.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... Just for the
16 clarity of the record, P1297 has already been admitted into evidence. No
17 need to be tendered again. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Please take a look at the second paragraph and the first two
21 lines of that paragraph. I quote:
22 "These regulations regulate the bases of command and control of
23 the military police of the ... armed forces."
24 Thank you. Here's my question. Have you ever read this
1 A. I don't know. I think so, but I'm not sure.
2 Q. Thank you for your answer. In that case, please be patient, and
3 take a look at page 9 in Serbian, which is page 10 in English. Thank
5 Now we see it. And now we'll read out. You say you don't
6 remember and I wouldn't remember either if there weren't this rule-book.
7 Although we can't see item 12, paragraph 12. Please enlarge it so that
8 both the witness and I see it. Now we see paragraph 12. I will now
9 quote something that we should bear in mind during our conversation,
10 since you don't remember.
11 Paragraph 12 in chapter 2 of the military police rule-book reads,
12 I quote:
13 "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution
14 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed, or to
15 which it is attached, commands and controls the military police."
16 Here's my question: Can you say, based on this, to which
17 military unit your military police platoon belonged?
18 A. The military police platoon belonged to the Bratunac Brigade.
19 Q. Thank you. In keeping with paragraph 12, was the commanding
20 officer of the unit to which the military police unit belonged supposed
21 to -- or authorised to command that military police unit? Thank you.
22 A. I did not have contact with the commander. Momir Nikolic did.
23 And he issued and forwarded orders from the brigade. Whether or not he
24 received orders from the brigade commander, I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. But was the brigade commander supposed to command the
1 military police of the brigade? I'm not asking how it really was in
3 A. The brigade commander was supposed to command, but directly or
4 indirectly, I don't know.
5 Q. Thank you. Please now take a look at paragraph 13. I will quote
6 the part that's relevant for this trial:
7 "With respect to specialty, the officer in charge of the security
8 body of the unit or institution within whose establishment the military
9 police units is placed or to which it is attached controls the military
11 Does this chapter 13 say that the military police, from the
12 professional point of view, is commanded by the security officer of the
13 brigade? Thank you.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Let us look at sentence two in paragraph 13:
16 "He makes suggestions to the officer in charge of the military
17 unit or institution on the use of military police units and is
18 responsible for the combat readiness of the military police unit and the
19 performance of their tasks."
20 Here's my question: Does it follow from this second sentence that
21 he makes proposals to you on the use of the units and is responsible for
22 its combat readiness and the performance of its tasks? Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we had a translation error, because it is
25 suggested someone is making proposals to the witnesses, and I don't think
1 that's what the General meant.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please clarify this, and
3 perhaps rephrase your question.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In sentence two of chapter 13, it says: "He makes suggestions or
7 proposals to the officer" --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... Yes,
9 Mr. Tolimir. Mr. Tolimir. Mr. Tolimir, it is not necessary to read this
10 part again; we have it on the record. The problem was you are recorded
11 as having said, Does it follow from this second sentence that he makes
12 proposals to you on the use of the units.
13 Was that really your question, or was it something else?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: There was a -- could we go into private session.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 11286-11296 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have page 6 of
7 this document, line 8 and 9.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. It shouldn't be
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I would just like the witness to read for himself line 8 and 9.
13 I don't really have to read it out loud. And then when you read it,
14 please tell us that you have read it.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have the English.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's on the screen now.
18 Which line is it in English, Mr. Tolimir?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In English, it's the
20 line containing the word "Tuzla." Line 9.
21 Now let me take a look. I don't really understand English, so
22 maybe my assistant can help me. No, it seems that this is not the right
24 Can we have page 6 in e-court. Page 6 of this document so that
25 we can find the relevant part. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have page 6 on the screen, but I don't
2 see the word "Tuzla."
3 Please check the page number again. It may be page 6 in B/C/S,
4 but I'm not sure if in English we have the same page number.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. So do you have the
6 document that ends with the 306, the ERN number should end with 306?
7 That's how we can figure out whether that's the relevant page or not.
8 Thank you.
9 I can see that this is not the relevant page because, in first
10 line, we find no mention of the month of December, which is present in
11 Serbian. So this is 78306.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic will assist you, I'm sure.
13 We are approaching the first break time. Perhaps we should have
14 our first break now, and during the break you could figure out which page
15 you need in the English.
16 We must have our first break now. The court usher will assist
17 you during the break and we will resume at 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue. And I hope you
21 have found the relevant page in the English.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We found it. It's page
23 5 in English, and page 6 in English [as interpreted] and the lines are
24 8 -- or, rather, 7 and 8 in English, on page 5.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said page 5 in English and page 6 in English.
1 I think you were referring to page 6 in B/C/S; is that correct?
2 Mr. Gajic.
3 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's page 5 in both
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Let me quote from lines 7 through 9 so you know what you said and
9 then I would like to hear your comment.
10 First, you say: "After that, when the war broke out in 1992, can
11 you describe to me what you were doing at this stage?"
12 This was the question of the Prosecutor.
13 And you answer: "Before the attack against the army, I had taken
14 a vacation, because I was due to take my regular vacation. And since, at
15 that time," --
16 Yeah, end of quote. Who attacked which army in Tuzla? We must
17 state that precisely for the transcript. And when was that? Can you
18 answer this question so that it becomes clear what exactly is meant?
19 Thank you.
20 A. It was on 15 May 1992. Some sort of Territorial Defence or the
21 Green Berets, I don't know who it was, and what they called themselves.
22 They attacked the army at Brcanska Malta. The army units were leaving
23 the barracks in Tuzla.
24 Q. Thank you. The Green Berets of the Muslim army attacked the JNA
25 convoy leaving Tuzla or maybe the VJ convoy. You just said military
1 units and that is a bit vague. Thank you.
2 A. The army in question was the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.
3 And it was the army of all of Yugoslavia, the JNA.
4 Q. Thank you. My question is: Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it
5 was that attacked the Yugoslav People's Army units in Tuzla in May 1992?
6 Do you know that? Thank you.
7 A. The army was attacked, the Green Berets, the Muslim people
8 attacked the army on 15 May. I don't know for which reason. Probably
9 because they had left this army and the soldiers in that army were Serbs.
10 They were the ones who had stayed in the barracks.
11 Q. Thank you. Was there a reason for them to kill those soldiers,
12 if the soldiers were leaving? And where were the soldiers going from the
13 barracks once they had left the barracks for all time? Thank you.
14 A. Clearly, there was no reason to kill people. I guess they were
15 supposed to withdraw from the barracks and leave the barracks for all
16 time. What do I know?
17 Q. Thank you. Can you say, roughly, if you remember, how many Serb
18 soldiers or soldiers of the JNA were killed when they were leaving Tuzla
19 and tried to go to Serbia? Thank you.
20 A. I don't know how many were killed. I know that that -- they were
21 many and that all vehicles were burnt and people were being killed.
22 Children, young soldiers. I don't know the exact number. I wasn't in
23 Tuzla at the time. I had left Tuzla already before that event. And I
24 don't know the numbers in question. I know what the media reported about
25 it, but I don't remember the numbers.
1 Q. Thank you. They killed many. Do you remember whether they were
2 more than 200 or fewer than 200? What do you remember from the media
3 reports? Thank you.
4 A. I don't know exactly how many. I really can't recall the number.
5 I only know that it was a large number. Many people were killed.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether, later on, anyone was held
7 responsible for this large number of JNA soldiers who were killed in
8 Tuzla and on their way to Serbia? Thank you.
9 A. As far as I know, nobody was held responsible. I even watched on
10 TV when people wanted to leave flowers there or a plaque, but the people
11 who were there, the population, didn't allow that.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether Tuzla was
13 inhabited by Serbs and, if you know, state the percentage of the Serb
14 population there, since you lived there? Thank you.
15 A. Many Serbs lived in Tuzla. There were even some neighbourhoods
16 where the Serbs were the majority of the population. But, of course,
17 there were also other ethnicities living there, Muslims, Croats, and
18 everybody else. But there was a huge number of Serbs.
19 Q. Thank you. There's still a huge number of Serbs living in Tuzla
20 where you used to live. And, if not, where are they now? Thank you.
21 A. No. I think that very few Serbs now live in Tuzla. They all
22 went to Serbia. I think most of them went to the area around Bijeljina.
23 But they are now all dispersed. They are no longer in Tuzla where they
24 lived before.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the houses in which you lived and
1 the other inhabitants of your village or town, are they now in the
2 possession of Serbs or somebody else, or are they burned and devastated?
3 What do you know about that? Thank you.
4 A. They are burned and devastated. Normal -- clearly, the
5 population was expelled and hardly anybody now lives there.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you know of any example of a village which was not
7 burned? Or, rather, which was burned? Can you mention the names of at
8 least one or two villages? Thank you.
9 A. Yes. There is Pozarnica, Kovacevo Selo [phoen], Simin Han,
10 Caklovici, I don't know. These are the places where the Serbs were the
11 majority of the population, especially Pozarnica. There -- there were
12 practically only Serbs living there.
13 Q. Thank you. Let us now take a look at page 6 in e-court, lines 12
14 through 14. I'll read them out to you, and then I'll ask you a question.
15 Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's also -- it's -- it's also page
17 6 in English and the lines are 13 through 15.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone
2 not activated] Mr. Tolimir, I think the last part should be redacted.
3 And if you are continuing dealing with the position of the witness, we
4 should go into private session.
5 Do you agree?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, I agree.
7 I will rephrase the question.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Why didn't you receive an order --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues]... no. Please,
11 we go into private session. And the relevant part, your last question,
12 will be redacted. And then you may continue.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 11304-11326 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Please tell us, did you, at the end of this interview we're
23 talking about, and the transcript of which we have, ask about your status
24 and what was the answer provided? Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document should not be broadcast.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. To avoid any dilemma, let us take a look at page 93, lines 10
4 through 15. Thank you.
5 Let me read it out. You say in line 10: "I don't have a phone.
6 I don't have anything. What is my status?"
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... I think we
8 have to go back into a private session if you are dealing with the status
9 of the witness.
10 We turn back into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 11329-11333 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We must have our second
8 break now, and we will resume at 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue your
12 cross-examination, but please be aware that we are in open session.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You remember what I quoted before. I don't want to repeat it
16 because we are now in open session. So you remember the situation that I
17 described as page 59, lines 14 to 19. And you can see it on the screen
18 in front of you.
19 My question is as follows. Was it on the 12th, the first day, or
20 the 13th, or the 14th? Can you tell us the date and the time, at least
21 whether it was morning or afternoon when you were there at that --
22 whether you were there at that object?
23 A. I don't remember the date, but it was afternoon.
24 Q. Thank you. So can we exclude the first day, the 12th? That was
25 the day of the beginning of the evacuation which began in the afternoon.
1 Thank you.
2 A. I don't know exactly on which date the evacuation started. I
3 know that women and children were evacuated first, and men only later on.
4 I don't know which day that was.
5 Q. Thank you. But if you take into account what you were doing, can
6 you tell us whether it was on the first day, the day when the women went?
7 So maybe you don't remember the date, but, tell us, was it on the first
9 A. It wasn't on the first day. I said that, first, women and
10 children were evacuated, so it means that this must have happened after
12 Q. Thank you. So could it have been then on the 12th or the 13th or
13 the 14th?
14 A. It's possible. But I don't know the date. I said that this
15 event occurred after the evacuation.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you maybe try to remember if you recall what were
17 the tasks performed by your unit? The investigator asked you what they
18 were doing and where they were doing it. So could you maybe try to
19 remember when this event occurred in relation to the activities carried
20 out by your unit? Thank you.
21 A. I don't know when exactly it was. I know what the unit was
22 doing, but I don't know exactly when.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you think that it would be possible to establish
24 that, based on the information contained in the diary that we looked at
25 before? If we look at the activities that were recorded there.
1 A. Well, maybe. It's possible.
2 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said that you went up to the
3 separation line. I don't want to mention the locality. And you said
4 that, to you, it seemed logical because it was possible to cross to the
5 Muslim-held territory from that point.
6 Did I understand you correctly?
7 A. Yes. Because there was a sign with an arrow pointing towards
8 that particular locality. That is why I assumed that we were going
9 towards that place.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know who exactly is the officer who is in a
11 position to authorise the crossing of a large number of POWs from his
12 territory to the other territory? Who is the officer who could authorise
13 something like that?
14 A. I think we already spoke about it. I think I said that it was
15 the order by General Ratko Mladic. So that was the main commanding
16 officer of the whole army. Who else could have ordered something like
18 Q. All right. So that's what you were told.
19 My question is then: Was it possible for your brigade commander
20 to decide something like that on his level or some other officer who was
21 maybe on a lower level, or on a higher level, but not in the Main Staff?
22 Thank you.
23 A. I think that if a brigade commander ordered something like that,
24 he could have done it within his territory, the territory controlled by
25 his brigade. I am not sure that he would be able to take people to some
1 other area. I think that only the Main Staff and the commander of the
2 army could have ordered something like that.
3 Q. So could you be held responsible for escorting a column if it was
4 the main commander of the whole Army of Republika Srpska who decided that
5 they were to be taken there, as it says here, "taken there in groups and
6 handed over."
7 Could you be held responsible for something like that?
8 A. Well, to tell you the truth, at the time, I was even proud, in a
9 way, that those people were able to move in an orderly fashion, safely
10 without being mistreated and that they were allowed to cross to the
11 territory where they wanted to be. To me, it was logical that they were
12 going there, and it was probably because of that that I felt a kind of
14 Q. Thank you. You said that you returned alone from that particular
15 locality where you escorted the column. We cannot say that you took them
16 there. You simply escorted them there. Is that true?
17 A. Yes. I returned and two people who were together with me in the
18 vehicle going there, they also returned with me. So as soon as there was
19 enough space between the vehicles for me to pass, I turned and went back.
20 Q. Thank you. During this interview, you were asked a number of
21 questions about certain localities and certain areas and what the members
22 of your unit were doing there. I hope that we don't need to close the
23 session for this question. If it's necessary, we are going to move to
24 closed session.
25 Did you, as the responsible person within your unit, were you the
1 person responsible to carry out all the assignments that came through
2 your commander or through persons designated as intermediaries?
3 A. Well, there should be order in every house. Equally, there
4 should be order in every army. So if I am to observe all the rules, it
5 means that I also have to accept all orders and carry them out. All
6 orders have to be carried out.
7 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said that as a member of an army
8 you were proud that the fate of those people ended in this particular
9 fashion. Can you tell me, was anybody able to change this plan for
10 exchange? Because, of course, you don't know what happened to those
11 people later on because you were not there; you went back.
12 A. I went back immediately. I don't know what happened to them. I
13 have no idea. I simply went back, and I don't know what happened.
14 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind your function, could you be held
15 personally responsible for some events that happened in some other
16 territory, if you brought the people to that other territory?
17 A. The responsible person is, first of all, the person who issued
18 the order. Furthermore, the responsible person is the person who did it.
19 But, in any case, it is the person who issued the order who is
20 responsible. So if the order was to take those people there, then that's
21 exactly what should have been done. That should have been the end of
22 that assignment and not to change things this way or that way. That
23 shouldn't happen in an army.
24 You know very well that such decisions should not be changed so
1 Q. Thank you. Later on, during this interrogation, shall we put it
2 that way, or interview, you were asked why this person went there, or why
3 that person went to this area, or that zone, so now I want to ask you:
4 When we talk about all the assignments carried out by you and your unit,
5 did you receive for all of them orders from the brigade command through
6 the usual command chain that functioned for you?
17 [Interpretation] So that's why I think that it could be
18 sufficient to identify the witness.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We will redact that part
20 and your last comment.
21 Thank you. Mr. Tolimir, you may carry on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
23 apologise, it wasn't my intention to protect anybody but the witness.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. My next question is: Despite the small number of people who
1 worked with you, did you carry out your assignments in a satisfactory
3 A. I think that those things were done the best way we could do
4 them. We couldn't have done them better.
5 There was a large number of tasks, and I also forgot to mention
6 one thing. There was a number of members of the military police - I
7 don't know exactly how many of them - who were assigned to the personal
8 escort of General Mladic. That means that they were with him all the
9 time. And then, I don't know which date that was, they went to secure
10 the road between Bratunac and Pribicevac. So I don't think how long that
11 road is through the woods, maybe around 30 kilometres. So you can
12 imagine what number of people, what manpower, would be necessary to
13 secure that road in a satisfactory way. But somehow we managed to do
14 that too.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, were you satisfied
16 with the life and work of all the people who worked together with you,
17 bearing in mind all the activities that took place there and in the
18 vicinity, bearing in mind that they were tasked with securing just about
20 A. If you are referring to the period while we secured persons and
21 facilities, as far as I know, they worked in a professional manner and
22 within their capabilities.
23 Q. Thank you for the answers you provided during this examination.
24 The Defence is grateful to you for coming to testify. We have no further
25 questions. As far as we, the Defence are concerned, we wish you a safe
1 return home and may God bless you and protect you on all your -- in all
2 your travels.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has
4 finished examining this witness. We thank everybody who helped us and
5 apologise if we disrupted anybody from doing something they wanted to do.
6 I would like to mention that this witness has been in The Hague
7 about a week to give evidence. But you can ask him if you -- if you
8 wish. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
11 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
13 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
14 Q. Witness, do you remember in the Popovic case when we went over
15 the military police log which went day by day, and you talked about what
16 you could remember through those dates?
17 A. I remember that we spoke then.
18 Q. All right. And did going over the military police log help
19 organise your thoughts about what happened on various dates? Just
21 A. That's more or less all right, but I did mention that these daily
22 reports were not made very regularly. But probably some dates can be
23 found that can jog one's memory.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, Your Honour, that is in his
1 previous testimony. I think it does provide some help regarding dates so
2 it's not my intention to go over that. That's already there, and while
3 it was brought up, I just would remind you that it's there, and I don't
4 intend to go into that.
5 Q. Witness, you have just answered on page 75 and 76 to the General
6 that you felt that you carried out all your assignments in a satisfactory
7 way and that there were many tasks. And you described some of them as
8 preventing looting and guarding General Mladic. Did your unit also --
9 were they also present when women and children were getting on the buses
10 in Potocari?
11 A. If they were present, they could only have been with
12 General Ratko Mladic, because they were his security detail. And if he
13 was there, then they were only there to protect him personally,
14 General Mladic.
15 Q. Do you remember the -- the pictures in the video I showed you
16 last time that two of your MPs, they were clearly identified by their --
17 their arm-bands. And one had a -- one had a little notebook. Do you
18 remember that photo and video I showed you last time of them in Potocari,
19 helping women and children get on buses?
20 A. That's possible. I remember the photograph, and they may have
21 helped. And who was in a position to issue them orders then, but
22 General Ratko Mladic. He was with them. And if he told them to do so,
23 then they probably did. They probably did help the people to get on the
25 Q. And do you know if your military police officers that were in
1 Potocari on those two days of the transportation of the population, were
2 they engaged in separating the able-bodied men from the women and
4 A. No, they didn't take part in that.
5 Q. All right. I'd like to -- I'd like to bring up a document.
6 It's -- we've now given it a number, 07253. It's from that same --
7 excuse me, that same collection from some of the documents that
8 General Tolimir used. And we should have an English translation for
9 this. And I would also like to remind you of your answer, that you say
10 you heard from Popovic that General Mladic intended to have the people
11 that you escorted up past Zvornik exchanged. And so, on those two
12 topics, let's take a little look at this document.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, we are in open session. You are
14 aware of that, are you?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for reminding me. I don't -- I hope I
16 won't get into anything, and I hope I didn't say anything that was
17 problematic, and there shouldn't be anything specifically on this
19 Q. And we see here, I don't know if you can read it very well, but
20 it's a document that's from the Drina Corps IKM, or forward command post,
21 dated 12 July, 1530 hours, and it's very urgent. And if we go to the
22 bottom of the B/C/S version, we see it's from Vujadin Popovic. And it
23 talks about the situation with the enemy in paragraph 1.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to the next paragraph in English.
25 Q. Paragraph 2, it talks about the situation from UNPROFOR, that
1 they "did not offer resistance and did not fire on our forces; the
2 command and the majority of the military hardware is still in the base in
3 Potocari. The check-point in Bljeceva also surrendered and later today
4 they are coming to the barracks in Bratunac. UNPROFOR soldiers are
5 assisting in loading women and children into the vehicles."
6 Paragraph 2, is that correct, as far as your knowledge? And,
7 yeah, they will blow that up for you, because I know it's not easy to
9 A. I don't know what this means, "surrendered," as it says here.
10 I know that there was no combat between UNPROFOR and the VRS.
11 Nobody opened fire on the other. I don't know what else.
12 Q. Well, this document says that the UNPROFOR surrendered to the
13 VRS. I believe your version of it was that they came to you for safety.
14 And, frankly, we've heard both in this case. Were you aware of any
15 UNPROFOR soldiers surrendering to the VRS, as stated by Mr. Popovic in
16 this document?
17 A. They came to the brigade command of their own accord. They were
18 coming in vehicles and in groups. Now, whether somebody had sent them
19 from up there or not, but -- I don't know. But I know nobody -- nobody
20 was taken prisoner and that there was no combat.
21 Q. All right. Well, since you've mentioned that, let me just go
22 back to something.
23 You had mentioned that the UN troops that were held or were
24 staying, I'll say, you said they were staying in Bratunac, stayed there,
25 and you thought because they couldn't get back to their base in Potocari
1 because of safety concerns. That's on page 65. And, sir, we have seen
2 that there were Dutch soldiers at the Hotel Fontana, the night Karremans
3 came to the Hotel Fontana and met General Mladic during this
4 transportation period. As you said, you -- your -- you and your unit
5 were responsible for the security of the hotel at that time for that
6 meeting, weren't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us if -- if safety in getting back to their base in
9 Potocari was an issue, why didn't the UN soldiers at the Hotel Fontana
10 and the others in Bratunac just go back through Zuti Most with
11 Colonel Karremans and his entourage?
12 A. I apologise, but there's a misunderstanding.
13 Firstly, I said that they were leaving their check-points around
14 the enclave of Srebrenica. They were leaving those check-points to come
15 to Bratunac. When they arrived at Bratunac, they didn't want to go any
16 further. They probably meant because of the order that the General
17 mentioned engaging these forces or any other forces. So they weren't
18 safe at the check-points where they had been in the forest, and they were
19 able to return to their base safely at Potocari. Because buses were
20 going there with women and children but they didn't want to go there.
21 Probably they were afraid that they could be sent to carry out other
22 assignments, and they were comfortable right where they were.
23 Q. So you think the Dutch soldiers that were in Bratunac preferred
24 to be in a school in Bratunac, as opposed to 5 kilometres down the road
25 with their base and their belongings and their people?
1 A. Yes, I think so. What other reason could they have had not to
2 return to their base?
3 Q. Well, the -- Colonel Karremans and other Dutch witnesses have
4 said that they were held as hostages and the VRS threatened to hurt them
5 if there were any more air-strikes. Did you hear that, that they were
6 held as hostages to prevent air-strikes?
7 A. That's not what I heard, that they were held hostage. I don't
8 know who told you that. Or them.
9 Q. Okay. Let -- let's get back to this -- this document.
10 And I'll remind us that you said your people were not involved in
11 the separations of anyone.
12 Let's go to paragraph 3. And it says: "A refugee group of about
13 30 to 35.000 women, children, elderly, and [sic] infirm and the sick is
14 located after beyond the UNPROFOR base towards Srebrenica, on the road
15 and inside the facilities of the former factories."
16 Is that correct? Is that where a lot of the Muslim Potocaris
17 [sic] were in the factories and around the UN base at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "The security was established and the evacuation to Kladanj
20 started. About 5.000 women and children were evacuated so far. We are
21 separating men from 17 to 60 years of age and we are not transporting
22 them. We have about 70 of them so far and the security organs and the
23 state security, the DB, are working with them."
24 So here Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic is telling the Main Staff and
25 the Drina Corps that he -- he says "we" are separating the men.
1 You were working with Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic the following
2 day, when you went up towards Zvornik. Who is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic
3 talking about taking part in the separating? He certainty couldn't do it
4 by himself.
5 A. I don't know who he could have meant. Probably the soldiers. We
6 were all soldiers at the time.
7 If he meant me, well, the two of us were hardly able to do all
8 that. I don't know who else. Somebody certainly did it ...
9 Q. Well, this Chamber has heard from one Bratunac Brigade military
10 policeman that helped count the number of separated men and provided
11 those very large numbers to Main Staff Colonel Jankovic. You remember --
12 did you know of military police involved in the counting of those
13 separated men?
14 A. No, I have already said that I didn't know. I don't know that
15 anybody counted that, be it the military police or anybody else.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have about 15 or 20 minutes
17 left. Some of the things I need to correct the record on, and I must say
18 that this witness has been very flexible and agreeable for staying. He
19 has actually helped us stay here, because other witnesses had a stricter
20 schedule. So if we could bring him back -- I know we're out of time.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I have a personal problem. I have
22 a very urgent appointment now, so that we can't sit longer today. You
23 may continue with your re-examination tomorrow morning, if that is
24 possible, and the witness is still here.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. That is what I was
1 suggesting. Tomorrow, it shouldn't be long and my guess he is probably
2 scheduled to go for tomorrow anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. But,
3 we can, of course, ask the witness.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think so. He will be available, I'm sure,
5 after having looked at the schedule.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Before I forget, could I just offer this document
7 into evidence.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are in a quite similar situation. I didn't
9 see that the witness could give some information about the content of
10 this document, and we don't know, like with the other two documents,
11 about the authentication.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: The authentication issue is one that is important
13 as you could tell from my reactions to the similar documents, and we will
14 be providing a motion on that particular issue because it is a rather
15 unique situation that the Defence is aware of.
16 I could briefly -- well, I know it's time. Perhaps we --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, we mark it for identification.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7253 shall be
20 assigned exhibit number P2069, marked for identification. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. You may deal with that
22 problem tomorrow. Yeah.
23 We must adjourn for the day.
24 You may be reminded that no contact to either party is allowed
25 for you during the break.
1 We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of
5 March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.