Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12917

 1                           Monday, 18 April 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.  As

 6     you can see, we are only two Judges present today.  Judge Nyambe is not

 7     in a position to attend court hearings this week so that the remaining

 8     Judges decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 9             I think it is worth to note that we will hear today the 100th

10     witness of the Prosecution.  That is a remarkable progress.  On the other

11     hand, it shows that we have still quite a lot to do ahead, and we should

12     speed up as much as possible.  The Chamber's always interested in an

13     expeditious but fair trial.

14             Is there anything to raise before the witness will be brought in?

15             Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, concerning two

17     documents used during cross-examination of Mr. Momir Nikolic, OTP

18     witness, we selected a certain number of pages from Momir Nikolic's

19     interview provided to the OTP under separate 65 ter numbers.  They were

20     uploaded in e-court as such, and we seek to tender them now.  The

21     relevant pages from document 65 ter 7274 are in 65 ter 1D730.  And the

22     relevant pages of 65 ter number 7280 are now a separate document in

23     e-court under 65 ter number 1D731.  The relevant portion of 65 ter

24     document 1D211, which was used during cross-examination of

25     Sir Rupert Smith, another OTP witness, is something that the Defence

Page 12918

 1     included in a separate document which is now 65 ter number 1D735.

 2     Concerning that document, we singled out around 20 pages in e-court which

 3     had been taken out of the previous document.

 4             Defence would also like to ask the Chamber to have them admitted

 5     into evidence, 1D730, 1D731, and 1D735.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, during the first break the registrar

 8     will liaise with you and check these different numbers.  I just want to

 9     raise one matter.  The pages -- the 20 pages you now indicated and have

10     uploaded into e-court of the document tendered with Sir Rupert Smith

11     is -- we have already the document D48 in evidence, which is also a part

12     of that document.  It could be preferable to attach these pages of this

13     document you are referring to to this document D48, but I think again you

14     should contact the registry during the first break and then we find the

15     best way to avoid any problems and errors on numbering.

16             Do you agree to that?  Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  We accept your

18     suggestion, of course.  A brief remark only:  D48 does not include the

19     pages included in 1D211.  Of course, we absolutely accept your

20     suggestion, because these are all parts of the same book, although it

21     presents two different points of view.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As D48 is also a Defence exhibit, it would be

23     better to attach the new pages to that previous document so that

24     everything you tendered would be in evidence.  We leave it until after

25     the break.

Page 12919

 1             The witness should be brought in, please.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           WITNESS:  MILENKO TODOROVIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the courtroom.

 6     Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to

 7     you now.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

11     yourself comfortable.

12             As you know, you will be now interrogated by the parties, first

13     by the Prosecution.  Mr. Vanderpuye has questions for you.

14             Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to

16     you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone.

17                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

18        Q.   And good afternoon to you, Mr. Todorovic.  As I told you last

19     week when we met, I do have a fair number of questions to put to you.  I

20     just want to remind you to try and speak a little bit more slowly than

21     you would otherwise so that you and I can be understood by the

22     interpreters for the benefit of all the parties, and if there's anything

23     that I ask you during the course of this examination that's not clear to

24     you, please let me know and I'll see if there's a way that I can phrase

25     it in a manner that we can better understand one another.

Page 12920

 1        A.   Very well.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  Could the witness please be

 3     asked to move closer to the microphone.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, would you please move a little bit further

 5     to the microphone so the interpreters can listen to you better.  Thank

 6     you very much.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Todorovic, could you please state your full name for the

10     record and spell your surname?

11        A.   My name is Milenko Todorovic, T-o-d-o-r-o-v-i-c.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Todorovic, what is your age, and where were you born?

13        A.   I was born on the 27th of December, 1947, in the village of

14     Gornja Krcina.

15        Q.   I know that you have some concerns about testifying here today.

16     Are you here today voluntarily, or are you here because you were

17     otherwise required to be here?

18        A.   I am in this courtroom for the first time.  However, last year,

19     in late January or early February, I was summoned to appear to the

20     Tribunal office in Belgrade for an interview concerning my duties and

21     tasks as the chief of the intelligence and security organ in the

22     East Bosnia Corps.  I was advised of my status if it became necessary for

23     me to appear before this Tribunal and the procedure under the law as

24     such.

25        Q.   As you've mentioned the interview which occurred at the Belgrade

Page 12921

 1     field office, was that interview conducted on the 2nd and the 3rd of

 2     February, 2010, to your recollection?

 3        A.   Can I consult the transcript?  I have the date there, but I think

 4     those are the dates, yes.

 5        Q.   All right.  And to our knowledge, was that interview tape

 6     recorded?

 7        A.   As far as I remember, I was asked whether I accept for it to be

 8     recorded, and I did.

 9        Q.   Now, you've indicated that you have that statement there in your

10     bag.  Have you had an opportunity to read the transcript of -- rather,

11     the interview, not the statement.  Have you had an opportunity to read

12     the transcript of the interview before coming here to testify today?

13        A.   Yes, I have had an opportunity to read it.  I received it around

14     ten days ago by post.

15        Q.   And when did you review it, about ten days ago or -- or some

16     other time?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The witness received

18     it by e-mail.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I opened the attachment to the

20     message, I read it and it took me about an hour or two.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   And you read the transcript of that interview in your own

23     language; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Having read the transcript, Mr. Todorovic, does it fairly and

Page 12922

 1     accurately reflect what you said during the course of the interviews on

 2     the 2nd and 3rd of February of 2010?

 3        A.   In principle it does, to the best of my recollection.  It does

 4     reflect the interview conducted with me in Belgrade.  I have no serious

 5     objections as to its contents.

 6        Q.   I take it then that you stand by what you said during the course

 7     of that interview.

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   I just would like to get a bit of background information from you

10     before I get into the substance of your testimony, and what I'd like to

11     focus on first is a bit of your professional background.  Are you

12     currently working?

13        A.   No.  I am not employed.  I am retired.  I retired in -- I'm not

14     sure.  2002 or 2003.

15        Q.   And at that time, what did you retire from?  What kind of work

16     were you doing?

17        A.   I retired from the army.  I was in the same position that I

18     performed until then, and I retired with the rank of colonel.

19        Q.   And prior to joining the -- first of all, was -- did you retire

20     from the Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   Yes.  My last position was chief of the security department of

22     the 3rd Corps command of the VRS in Bijeljina.  However, it was under the

23     30th Personnel Centre of the then VJ.

24        Q.   Prior to joining the VRS, were you a member of the JNA?

25        A.   Yes, I was.  I was an active duty member of the JNA since the

Page 12923

 1     20th of July, 1966.

 2        Q.   Can you briefly just outline, if you would, or list the positions

 3     that you had during your career with the JNA before you joined the VRS.

 4        A.   In 1966, I completed the military high school, which was an NCO

 5     school.  I specialised in artillery.  After that, I was assigned to

 6     Slovenska Bistrica near Maribor in Slovenia.  I -- while working in the

 7     JNA, I continued my education, and I received my first commissioned

 8     officer rank of 2nd lieutenant in 1971.  After that, because of the needs

 9     of the service, I was transferred to the garrison in Ljubljana and then

10     to Ribnica, which is also a small town nearby Ljubljana.  My position was

11     battery commander, following which I returned from Ribnica to

12     Slovenska Bistrica, also as a battery commander.  Next, in

13     Slovenska Bistrica I was assigned to a staff position as a desk clerk for

14     educational affairs in the command of the artillery regiment.

15             In 1983, I was sent to the security school in Pancevo because

16     such were the needs of the service, and I agreed to that transfer.  I

17     completed that school there, following which I returned and was assigned

18     as the security organ in the garrison in Ptuj, P-t-u-j.  From the

19     garrison, I was sent to the garrison in Maribor, to the division command.

20     There, too, I was in the security organ.

21             In 1985, I left the security service, which was not of my own

22     volition, but I was appointed commander of the artillery regiment in

23     Slovenska Bistrica.  I remained in that position for three years,

24     whereupon I met the conditions for further education in the General Staff

25     school.

Page 12924

 1             In 1988, I handed over the duty of the regiment commander to go

 2     back to the security service.  That was in 1988 when I returned to the

 3     security service.

 4             A year later, 1989, I was sent to the General Staff school in

 5     Belgrade for further education, and I took general courses.  I completed

 6     the school in 1991, in June.  Having graduated from the General Staff

 7     school, I was assigned to a duty with the security administration of the

 8     General Staff of the VJ -- or, rather, of the Ministry of Defence.  I

 9     remained there until my departure for the VRS in mid-November 1993.

10        Q.   When you were assigned to the VRS in mid-November 1993, to what

11     position -- what position did you take up there?

12        A.   It was called a temporary assignment.  I was sent to serve with

13     the VRS and assigned to the position of chief of intelligence and

14     security department of the command of the East Bosnian Corps, the

15     headquarters of which were in Bijeljina.

16        Q.   I see the transcript reads that you were assigned as the chief of

17     the intelligence security department of the command of the

18     East Bosnia Corps.  Did you also serve the function or was it also your

19     position that you were the assistant commander for the security and

20     intelligence in that corps?

21        A.   It is the same thing, basically.  At certain commander levels,

22     positions can be that of assistant commanders for intelligence and

23     security, and at the same time the person in charge is also chief of the

24     security and intelligence department or organ, and that term may vary

25     depending on the level of command.  In any case, it is in direct line of

Page 12925

 1     subordination to the unit commander.

 2        Q.   How did it come about that you were assigned to the

 3     East Bosnia Corps in 1993?

 4        A.   You mean in the technical sense or -- I'm not quite clear what

 5     you mean.

 6        Q.   Well, you indicated that prior to that you were serving in

 7     Belgrade; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And so how is it that you -- not in a technical sense but

10     in a factual sense, how is it you wound up at the East Bosnia Corps in

11     the position that you held?

12        A.   In the then JNA, the practice was for professional commissioned

13     and non-commissioned officers who were born in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

14     Croatia were temporarily assigned to the units of the Army of

15     Republika Srpska or the Army of the Serbian Krajina.

16        Q.   And prior to your transfer to the East Bosnia Corps, did you

17     discuss that with anyone?

18        A.   I was told, just like my other colleagues were, that it would be

19     an ethical, moral thing to respond to this call and that that is what we

20     were trained for during our professional education and that we should

21     take up the corresponding duty in those units.  Specifically for this

22     post, I had an interview or conversation with the then chief of the

23     administration, of the security administration of the Army of Yugoslavia,

24     General Dimitrijevic, and with General Tolimir, who asked me -- but,

25     actually, they didn't ask me, because by their position they were

Page 12926

 1     superior to me, both Tolimir and General Dimitrijevic.  I was of lower

 2     rank, but I was told that the cadre situation was unfavourable, that

 3     there were many vacancies in the intelligence and security organ of the

 4     East Bosnia Corps command and that if I were appointed to that post that

 5     would contribute to the personal and professional resolution of that

 6     particular issue.  I accepted that, even though I did state that I had

 7     some medical difficulties myself, as well as in my family, but I still

 8     agreed to take up these duties.

 9        Q.   Did you have -- I'm sorry.

10        A.   I would like to emphasise that during my service, particularly

11     during the wartime years, a lot of understanding was shown for my

12     personal and my family situation, and if it was every necessary for me or

13     for my family, my wife, to go for medical check-ups, there were no

14     problems.  My wife was also suffering from some medical difficulties.

15     All the more so because Bijeljina is not that far from Belgrade, some 130

16     kilometres away from Belgrade.

17        Q.   In terms of your assignment to the East Bosnia Corps and the

18     discussions you had, did you have those discussions in particular with

19     General Tolimir?

20        A.   Yes, briefly.  He was with General Dimitrijevic, the chief of the

21     Army of Yugoslavia's security and intelligence administration.  Until

22     then we didn't know each other personally.  Later on I found out that

23     General Tolimir served for a while in Macedonia, in Dalmatia, in Split,

24     in Knin.  I was serving my duties in a completely different part of the

25     former Yugoslavia, so before then we didn't know each other personally.

Page 12927

 1     That's why the conversation was very short, because at that time, we

 2     didn't really have any topics that we needed to discuss at any length.

 3        Q.   I take it, then, that the conversation you had with

 4     General Tolimir at that time in 1993 was in person, that is,

 5     face-to-face.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And do you know how it is that he came to pick you in particular

 8     for the position at the East Bosnia Corps?

 9        A.   Well, I never asked him about it, but I assume that he could see

10     the personnel files that were with the chief and that he could see there

11     where I was born, also my professional qualifications for that particular

12     duty and that on the basis of that they concluded that I was from that

13     area and that I was the most suitable for that particular post.

14        Q.   The East Bosnia Corps in particular, if you could just describe

15     where it is situated -- or where it was situated, shall we say, when you

16     got there in 1993.

17        A.   The East Bosnia Corps command or the command as the

18     organisational unit was located at the entrance to Bijeljina as you're

19     coming from the Sremska-Raca direction.  It's the north-eastern entrance

20     to Bijeljina.  Thus there were a few private houses that were

21     requisitioned through the Ministry of Defence for the requirements of the

22     army, and that's where the corps command was located.

23        Q.   I'd just like to show you 65 ter 1454, please.  If we could --

24     well, first, tell me if you recognise what you see here?

25        A.   I see a geographical map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I recognise

Page 12928

 1     it as such.  Geographically and territorially.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I'd just like to blow up the portion where it's written

 3     "East Bosnia Corps."  And you can see a flag that is where it's written

 4     underneath it "Bijeljina."  Is that roughly, or can you confirm if that's

 5     roughly the area where the command would have been situated in that area?

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we can blow it up a little bit more so the

 7     witness can see it more clearly.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.  If we had the city

 9     map, I could show you the houses and each street individually, but in

10     view of the scale of this map, I think it is correctly shown, yes.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   Could you give us an approximation, if you know, of the distance

13     it is between, say, Zvornik and Bijeljina?

14        A.   I think it's about 53 or 54 kilometres.  Between 50 and 55

15     kilometres, actually.

16        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Thank you.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I'm done with this exhibit for the moment.

18     Then I would like to tender the map.  I understand the map is not

19     admitted yet in evidence.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1454 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit Number P2179.  Thank you.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:

24        Q.   Mr. Todorovic -- or would you prefer to be addressed as

25     Colonel Todorovic?  Let me know.

Page 12929

 1        A.   Whatever you prefer.  I was a colonel when I was working.  Now

 2     I'm just a regular citizen, a retired person, but I have nothing against

 3     you using that rank.  I still have the rank.  I haven't lost it.

 4        Q.   All right.  Colonel, when you arrived at the East Bosnia Corps in

 5     November 1993, I just want to get a very basic idea of what the structure

 6     or the organisation of the corps was like then, but who was the

 7     commanding officer, the commander of the corps, at that time?

 8        A.   The corps structure -- actually, I'll begin from the corps

 9     command, and I'll do it briefly.  If you need any more details, I'll be

10     happy to do it like that.

11             The corps commander, General Major Novica Simic was the commander

12     of the corps.  His deputy and the Chief of Staff at the same time was

13     Colonel at the time and later General Budimir Gavric.  His assistant, the

14     East Bosnia Corps assistant for logistics, was Colonel Petar Stojanovic.

15     The assistant for morale, religious, and so on and so forth, was Colonel

16     Slobodan Jelacic.  And the assistant or the chief of the intelligence and

17     security section was retired Colonel Jovanovic.  Actually, it's not

18     Jovanovic.  It's Petar Jakovljevic, Petar Jakovljevic, whom I took over

19     from when I arrived.  The chief of the security force -- of the

20     intelligence and security organ, and at the same time the assistant

21     commander for intelligence and security affairs.

22        Q.   Can you tell us who was the commander for the military police

23     battalion of the corps.  That would be the 3rd Military Police Battalion.

24        A.   The military police battalion commander of the East Bosnia Corps,

25     which became the 3rd Corps or the 3rd Battalion of the military police

Page 12930

 1     after the war was at that time Captain Dragisa Vulin.  Later he was a

 2     major, but I think now that he is a colonel and that he's also retired.

 3     So when I went there in 1993, the commander of the military police

 4     battalion was Captain Dragisa Vulin.

 5        Q.   And was Captain Vulin in that position in 1995, as well as

 6     General Simic and General Gavric?

 7        A.   Yes.  They were there until the end, and until the time that I

 8     left from the East Bosnia Corps until 1997, because that's when I went

 9     back to the Army of Yugoslavia, in 1997, from the East Bosnia Corps.

10        Q.   As the assistant commander for security and intelligence in the

11     command from 1993 through the end of the war, who was your immediate

12     superior within the security chain?

13        A.   My immediate superior was the commander of the unit in whose

14     composition we belonged.  So my immediate superior was

15     General Novica Simic.  And this was the principle in the Army of

16     Yugoslavia and the Army of Republika Srpska.  However, there is a kind of

17     difference between the organs of security and intelligence.  There is a

18     professional line of command and control.  It's a professional line of

19     command and direction.  According to that professional line of directing,

20     my immediate superior was General Tolimir.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think on page 14,

23     lines 17 to 20, are not translated in the best possible way.  It's not

24     quite what the witness said, so I would like to ask the Prosecutor to

25     repeat his question.

Page 12931

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no problem.  Thank you.  I'll do that.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   My question was:  In the security chain, who was your immediate

 5     superior?

 6        A.   In my answer, I was a little broader, so first I emphasised that

 7     my general superior was the military commander, and then in the second

 8     part of my answer I answered your question.  Along the security

 9     professional line, my immediate superior was General Tolimir.

10        Q.   I'd like to take you to a different area, and --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask a question to this matter, which there

12     is one thing I didn't understand very clearly.  You said your position

13     was assistant commander for intelligence and security, and at the same

14     time as chief of the intelligence and security department or unit.  Can

15     you tell me what is the difference between the two positions?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There isn't really a difference

17     between those two posts.  Just as in the intelligence, security section

18     whose chief I was, and at the same time on my work labour card under

19     "Personal data," it states that at the same time I was assistant

20     commander for intelligence and security.  This means that I was doing the

21     intelligence security organ's duties such as gathering and compilation of

22     data, providing proposals, providing them to the commander for his

23     review, and to my superior according to the security chain of command.

24             I don't know if I was clear enough.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The term "chief" refers to your position you held

Page 12932

 1     in the -- in this unit, and the term "assistant commander" referred to

 2     your relation to your superiors or how can I understand it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to find an adequate way

 4     to explain.

 5             The chief of the security and intelligence department is, at the

 6     same time - you could say this was a dual function - also the assistant

 7     commander for intelligence and security affairs.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Assistant to whom?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the corps commander.  To the

10     corps commander or the commander in whose command you are.  So if we're

11     talking about the East Bosnia Corps command, I was the chief of the

12     intelligence and security organ there and at the same assistant commander

13     for intelligence and security affairs.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That clarifies the

15     situation.

16             Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If it's of any

18     benefit to the Court, I plan to get into some of the more detailed

19     functions of his position a little bit later on in the examination.

20        Q.   I was intending to take you to a different area, in particular to

21     July 1995.  First, Colonel, do you recall about when it was that the

22     Srebrenica enclave fell in July of 1995?

23        A.   During the interview in Belgrade, I really couldn't remember the

24     precise date.  I know it was sometime in mid-June.  However, now from the

25     transcript and all of this I see and I accept that this was actually on

Page 12933

 1     the 11th of July or the 12th that this happened.  It's been a while since

 2     then.  Sixteen years almost since that time.

 3        Q.   I just want to clarify one thing that's in the record at page 16,

 4     line 23.  You're recorded as having said, and it may be erroneous, but

 5     you're recorded as having said, "I know it was sometime in mid-June."

 6        A.   It's probably not correctly translated.  I don't know.  It was

 7     either my slip of the tongue when I was pronouncing the month then and

 8     now.  Actually, I didn't think then, nor do I think now that it was June

 9     but that it was July.

10        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, Colonel.  Can you recall -- or

11     can you explain how it is you came to learn of the fall of Srebrenica?

12        A.   When we talked about that in Belgrade, I said then, and now I'm

13     saying that as well, that I cannot really be precise as to whether I

14     learned about it in the corps command or if I learned about it through

15     the media.  The time period since then has been considerable.  I don't

16     remember whether I had left and gone home and then three hours later I

17     learned about it.  The work hours were 24 hours a day.  We even slept at

18     our jobs.  So I cannot really say whether I heard it at the command when

19     it was already all over, or if I learned about it from the media, because

20     they were broadcasting or announcing important information from the

21     front.

22        Q.   Around that time did you receive any tasks concerning prisoners?

23        A.   Yes.  I cannot really be specific about the date.  I couldn't do

24     it in Belgrade, I cannot do it now, as to whether that was on the same

25     day in the evening or the following day or two days later, but in any

Page 12934

 1     case, it was after the fall of Srebrenica, I think, and I am 90 per cent

 2     sure that a telegram came from the Main Staff that the East Bosnia Corps

 3     command should be engaged and should prepare accommodation at the

 4     Batkovic collection centre for another 1.000 to 1.200 -- 1.100 or 1.200.

 5     So 1.000 to 1.200, as far as I can remember.  Thus to prepare

 6     accommodation for new detainees who are going to be coming over the

 7     coming days.

 8             I immediately informed the corps commander.  He took further

 9     steps through his other assistants, through the logistics sector and

10     others for these preparations to be actually carried out.

11        Q.   Now, you've indicated here that you're 90 per cent sure that you

12     received a telegram from the Main Staff at the East Bosnia Corps command.

13     First, do you remember from whom that telegram came?

14        A.   I did say that I am convinced 90 per cent that it was a telegram,

15     and I said that because when we were talking in Belgrade, there was a

16     dilemma as to whether I was informed by phone or whether this was in a

17     personal contact between myself and General Tolimir about this particular

18     assignment.  So I attempted to go over everything, and I'm sure that it

19     was not done in personal contact, and I said that I was 90 per cent sure

20     that it was a telegram from the Main Staff which, according to my

21     recollection, was signed by Tolimir.

22             Well, I could be mistaken, but probably this telegram exists

23     somewhere in the archives.

24        Q.   Do you have any doubt as you're testifying here today as to

25     whether or not this task you were assigned came from General Tolimir?

Page 12935

 1        A.   Well, you know, when you don't have any documents -- I don't even

 2     have any of my working notes, because when I left my post, I handed them

 3     in, and they have been destroyed.  I don't have that telegram in front of

 4     me in order to be able to say, yes, I do recognise it.  Then the memory

 5     after 16 years, you know how it is.  It can be deceptive, and I wouldn't

 6     want to err on one side or the other and be decisive about it and say

 7     1.000 per cent this or that and be wrong.

 8             As far as my recollection serves me, it is what is said how it

 9     was without any intention.

10        Q.   Do you remember what you said during the course of your interview

11     in February 2010?

12        A.   Well, the sense of it is what we're saying now, what I'm saying

13     now.  I don't remember every single word.

14        Q.   Well, maybe if I read a little bit of it to you it will help

15     refresh your recollection.

16        A.   Yes, please do, and then we will.

17        Q.   On page 37 of the transcript of your interview --

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just a moment and I'll get the proper

19     identifying number for the Trial Chamber.

20             Mr. President, this is a document that doesn't have a 65 ter

21     number, but insofar as I'm using it to refresh the witness's

22     recollection, I'm not offering it into evidence at this point anyway.

23             At page -- it is listed as a statement, obviously, on his list of

24     statements as I've given that to the Trial Chamber.  It's connected or

25     attached to the list of exhibits.

Page 12936

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it uploaded into e-court?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It appears it's on the Defence exhibit list, and

 3     it's 1D733.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 5             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it would

 6     be a good thing to show the witness this document.  It's in the e-court,

 7     and the number is 1D733, pursuant to 65 ter Rule.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Vanderpuye.  We have it on the screen.  In English the first

10     page, I think, interview of the 2nd of February.  Now we turn to the

11     relevant pages.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We have page 37 in the English, and I don't have

13     the reference for the B/C/S.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The court usher is trying to find the relevant

15     page.

16             Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think the relevant

18     page in the Serbian is 35.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  What we have in the English, Mr. President,

22     about midway through the page, is a question that's put to the witness

23     during the course of the interview, which is:

24              "Ok, are you certain or not certain that the information came

25     from General Tolimir, whether it was in person or by telegram?"

Page 12937

 1             And the answer is:

 2             "I am sure about that."

 3        Q.   Does that refresh your recollection as to whether the information

 4     you received concerning that task came from General Tolimir?

 5        A.   I can see the text before me, and I do not dispute that I said so

 6     at the time.  What I said a moment ago, in my view, is not considerably

 7     different.  In any case, I did underscore that before me I have neither

 8     my notebook nor the telegram so as to be able to say precisely whether it

 9     was in a telegram or in some other form, that message which arrived from

10     Tolimir.  In any case, I'm certain that I spoke with General Tolimir on

11     the phone when we discussed when they would be coming.  Then I was

12     informed by him to drop the task and stop any further preparations, but I

13     don't think we've gone that far yet.  That's why I'm saying that I am

14     90 per cent sure, looking from this place, that it was by way of a

15     telegram, and I believe I received it from the intelligence and security

16     administration, and the chief of that administration was General Tolimir.

17        Q.   Do you recall saying during the course of your interview that you

18     could not exclude the possibility that you met face-to-face with

19     General Tolimir in relation to this task?

20        A.   We discussed that situation in Belgrade at length, but I arrived

21     at the interview without knowing what the topics would be specifically.

22     Therefore, I was unable to recollect many things off-the-cuff.  It's been

23     a long time ago, and now I have to say whether this happened this way or

24     that.

25             I remember the gist of it, but I am uncertain about the details.

Page 12938

 1     So the gist of it, which is not in dispute, is that I am 90 per cent sure

 2     that I received a telegram rather than a phone call when I learned that

 3     we needed to set up accommodation for those 1.000 to 1.200 prisoners.

 4     And I believe it also arrived to my service through code, and if it

 5     arrived in such a way, it came from the intelligence and security

 6     administration, headed by General Tolimir.  I received all important

 7     information through the professional line, and I was duty-bound to inform

 8     of all such information to General Simic, my corps commander.  I was also

 9     supposed to pass on to him any tasks and instructions which came from the

10     superior command.

11        Q.   Tell us in detail, as best as you can recall it, what the task

12     was that you were assigned in relation to the prisoners that you spoke

13     about just after the fall of Srebrenica?

14        A.   Do you mean my conversations with General Simic or

15     General Tolimir?

16        Q.   If you had a conversation with General Tolimir about the task

17     that you were assigned when you were assigned it, I'd like to know what

18     it was that you were told to do.

19        A.   Concerning that task, which, as I say, I'm 90 per cent sure

20     arrived by way of a telegram, I did not have a conversation with

21     General Tolimir.  I informed General Simic, the corps commander.  I told

22     him that a telegram had arrived.  I showed it to him and told him that we

23     should start our preparations and we did.

24        Q.   What did the telegram say, Colonel?

25        A.   It's difficult to say even approximately.  I can't quote it, but

Page 12939

 1     it was something to the effect that for those 1.000 to 1.200 prisoners to

 2     be accommodated, who were members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

 3     Srebrenica, should be accommodated, and that accommodation provided by

 4     the corps command.  It was also stated that they should be placed at

 5     Batkovic.  That was the contents of the telegram, more or less.

 6        Q.   You indicated you relayed this to your commander; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What did you tell your commander?

 9        A.   I showed him the telegram so he could read it.  I placed it in

10     his hands.  I didn't make any particular comment.

11        Q.   What did you do?

12        A.   I didn't do anything.  It was the commander who ordered the

13     respective organs to carry out preparations.  Personally, I had no other

14     obligations regarding it.

15        Q.   I didn't ask you about obligations.  I asked you what did you do

16     in relation to that task that was directed to you.

17        A.   I received it to be relayed to the corps commander so that they

18     could do it.  I don't know why it arrived in the security department.  It

19     is possible that some other assistant commanders at the Main Staff were

20     absent and then perhaps General Tolimir took it upon himself to do that.

21        Q.   I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, Colonel, but I

22     asked you a very specific question, and I would appreciate it if you

23     could give us a specific answer.  I'm going to ask my question again.

24             What did you do in relation to the task that came to you from

25     General Tolimir?

Page 12940

 1        A.   As I said, I'm not sure if we understood each other though, that

 2     I informed the commander by placing the telegram in his hands, and I have

 3     in mind the corps commander.  Since the collection centre at Batkovic is

 4     directly subordinated to the corps commander, the corps commander issued

 5     specific orders to his other subordinates to implement what was requested

 6     of them in the telegram in order to make preparations to receive the

 7     prisoners and my job was finished.  Practically speaking, I simply

 8     transmitted the telegram from the Main Staff, which was received by the

 9     security organ, to the corps commander for further action.

10             I'm not holding anything back.  I'm telling you everything about

11     this.

12        Q.   What preparations were required to be made to receive these

13     prisoners, a thousand, 1.300 prisoners at the Batkovic camp?

14        A.   The collection centre, or as it sometimes was referred to as the

15     Batkovic camp, was in the environs of Bijeljina, close to the Batkovic

16     village, so actually it was some 10 to 15 kilometres away from Bijeljina.

17     It was part of an agricultural compound.  There were a number of hangars

18     there which were used for different purposes such as to store wheat, to

19     store fertilisers, agricultural machinery and everything else that would

20     be needed by a farm or an agricultural facility.  Some of them were

21     empty, and there had already been established a reception centre and that

22     it could house several hundred people.  In any case, this figure was now

23     greater, which required the machinery and wheat to be taken out.  Water

24     pipes had to be put in place, outdoor toilets set up, as well as other

25     preparations which were required to provide the basic conditions.

Page 12941

 1     However, none of that was under my competence.  It was the corps command

 2     logistics branch which had to take upon themselves all those tasks issued

 3     by the corps commander.  That is why I say that I had no further

 4     obligations towards the task.

 5        Q.   Did you go there to inspect the premises in relation to these

 6     preparations?

 7        A.   No, I did not, because there were numerous military and security

 8     problems continually along the lines, and myself and all of my security

 9     organs were constantly engaged performing corps tasks.  Perhaps at a

10     later point I believe I did go to see it, but not at that point in time.

11        Q.   When did you go to see it?

12        A.   Again, I'm uncertain about the date.  Sometime later, perhaps a

13     month later when a group of about 170 or 180 captured members of the

14     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the area of the Zvornik Brigade was

15     brought to Batkovic.

16        Q.   Did these thousand prisoners, 1.300 prisoners, ever arrive at the

17     camp?

18        A.   No, it never did.  Can I offer a comment?

19        Q.   Of course.

20        A.   At that period of time, there were many members of

21     East Bosnia Corps who were captured by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

22     and they were placed in a similar camp or holding centre in the area of

23     Tuzla.  Their relatives, parents, friends, when they learned through the

24     media, and information also leaked from commands, that there were between

25     10- and 1.200 prisoners from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina arriving at

Page 12942

 1     Batkovic, they basically besieged the commanders of the VRS units where

 2     their family members had served in inquiring why those people from

 3     Srebrenica were still not arriving.  They wanted to have an immediate

 4     exchange for our soldiers in Tuzla.

 5             At a certain moment, the situation became very serious.  There

 6     was almost a mutiny of sorts, and the corps commander simply didn't know

 7     what to tell them.  I happened to be with him at that moment, and he told

 8     me this:  "Check with your boss," and he meant General Tolimir, "what is

 9     going on.  When would those 10- to 1.200 captured Army of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina soldiers arrive?"

11   I picked up the phone, and I got hold of General Tolimir.  I asked him when

12  those announced prisoners of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were to arrive.

13   He told me, "Drop all further preparations.  That idea was abandoned, that

14   is, that task."  I didn't inquire any further.  I simply relayed information

15    to General Simic, the corps commander and then further events took place.

16        Q.   Did he mention to you whether or not they were coming?

17        A.   As I said - perhaps it was not interpreted well - General Tolimir

18     told me, "Drop any further preparations.  The task has been abandoned."

19     In our parlance it meant there was going to be nothing that would come out

20     of it. They would not be coming.

21        Q.   What did you do?

22        A.   I returned from my office and told General Simic that things were

23     not going to proceed, and General Simic was then even more uncertain what

24     to do and what to tell the families of our VRS captured soldiers.

25        Q.   Did you have any discussion with General Simic as to what -- what

Page 12943

 1     the next course of action was going to be for your corps?

 2        A.   Not at that moment.  But the next day, or if it was in the

 3     morning, it was later that day, say some 5, 10, or 12 hours later,

 4     General Simic called me and he told me this:  "I called

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Pandurevic, commander of the

 6     Zvornik Brigade, and he told me," that's what General Simic was telling

 7     me that Pandurevic told him, that there were still members of the Army of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina that were trying to break through from Srebrenica to

 9     Tuzla, and that capturing them and transporting them to Batkovic was not

10     a problem.

11             In addition to that information, General Simic ordered the

12     following:  He told me to organise through the military police battalion

13     for a certain number of vehicles to be sent, as well as soldiers of the

14     military police who were to take over and escort the captured members of

15     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the general area of Zvornik to the

16     collection centre at Batkovic.

17             I implemented the order by calling the MP Battalion commander.  I

18     conveyed him the corps commander's order.  I told him to send an officer

19     with two or three vehicles, as well as a number of military policemen who

20     were to provide security.

21        Q.   How long after you received the task from the Main Staff was it

22     that you -- how much time passed between the time you received it and the

23     time that you called General Tolimir because the prisoners hadn't

24     arrived?

25        A.   It's a difficult question.  Well, not the question but whatever

Page 12944

 1     answer I can give you.  There must have been at least two to three days.

 2     Maybe more.

 3        Q.   Could it have been a day or two?

 4        A.   I don't think it was as short as only a day or two, because there

 5     wasn't -- there wouldn't be enough time for the parents to get all that

 6     information and have time enough to pressure the corps command, wanting

 7     to know why it wasn't coming about.  Well -- but this is just me

 8     drawing -- try to draw a conclusion as to a possible time period.  I lean

 9     towards the figure of two or three days from the moment when the telegram

10     arrived and the instructions to stop preparations.

11        Q.   When you called General Tolimir, can you tell us how it is you

12     were able to identify that he was the person you were speaking to?

13        A.   I knew it because we knew each other's voices.  We met previously

14     and had conversations.  It wasn't in 1993 that I met him but a couple of

15     years before that when we closely worked together.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think this is a good time for the break,

18     Mr. President, if it's time for the break.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed, it is.  We must have our first break

20     now, and we will resume after half an hour, quarter past 4.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, before you get the floor, I would

24     like to put a question to the witness.

25             Sir, you explained that you received the order from

Page 12945

 1     General Tolimir to prepare for accommodation of the prisoners of war and

 2     that you handed this telegram over to your commander.  Can you help me:

 3     What was the reason why Mr. Tolimir contacted you and not the commander

 4     directly?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me to say

 6     anything on that question.  It's possible that somebody else from the

 7     Main Staff who was supposed to have done that and send that to the

 8     general part of the corps command was absent, and so he sent -- so that

 9     this was then sent by General Tolimir.

10             In principle, this is not my area of responsibility or part of my

11     assignments in terms of this expert control and direction of the security

12     organs.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, why did he call you and not the commander,

14     or sent a telegram to you and not to the commander?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a concrete answer.  I

16     can make an assumption that this would faster along that line of control

17     and that the corps commander would be acquainted with it sooner so that

18     time would not be lost because of the urgent nature of the preparations.

19     This is what I assume, but ...

20             I never thought about anything that I received in the sense of

21     why did I receive it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your assumption was that Mr. Tolimir stood in for

23     somebody else, another assistant commander, or the commander himself,

24     because they were absent.  What did you mean by that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that could have been one of

Page 12946

 1     the reasons why General Tolimir signed the telegram, if he signed it.

 2     I'm saying "if," because the usual practice with our telegrams -- or,

 3     rather, the rule was always to have the chief or the commander sign his

 4     full first and last name on the telegram.  It can also be signed by a

 5     person standing in for them so that the actual, the true signatory can

 6     only be seen on the original document that is being archived.  The copy

 7     that I would receive in the form of a telegram would not indicate the

 8     actual personal signature but only it would state, "Deputy -- assistant

 9     commander for intelligence and security affairs, General Tolimir."  I

10     don't know if he actually signed that himself or somebody else from his

11     sector where he was the chief.  I cannot see that from the telegram.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Once again, my question was quite different from

13     what you provided me with.

14             You said perhaps Mr. Tolimir signed this document, this order,

15     addressed to you because other commanders, assistant commanders, were

16     absent.  Is that what you are saying?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did say that, because I'm

18     saying this again now, that it's also possible that he did that because

19     the others were somewhere absent, in the field or on some other

20     assignment, and he happened to be at the Main Staff command post at that

21     time, and as the most senior officer, then he signed that order -- or,

22     rather, that the signature was made on his behalf.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you are quite familiar with the

24     responsibilities of the members of the Main Staff.  To provide

25     accommodation and prepare accommodation for prisoners of war, whose

Page 12947

 1     responsibility in the Main Staff was it to take the necessary steps?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally, yes, I am familiar with

 3     the duties of certain sectors in the commands from the lowest to the top

 4     ones.  However, I'm not sure as for the Main Staff in whose sector that

 5     would belong.  It should be under the assistant for human resources

 6     sector and not the assistant for intelligence and security affairs.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who in the Main Staff is responsible for the

 8     military police?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person responsible for the

10     military police in the Main Staff and in the lower-ranking commands in

11     the sense of expert direction and use is the chief -- or, rather, the

12     assistant commander for intelligence and security affairs, and the

13     military police is subordinated directly to the commander.  That means

14     that at my level and at the level of the Main Staff as well as at the

15     level of lower commander institutions the chief or assistant commander

16     for intelligence and security affairs proposes to his commander the most

17     rational use of members of the military police, and the commander's word

18     is the last.  He decides whether he would accept the proposal in its

19     entirety, some parts of it, or whether he would not accept it at all.

20     Most often the proposal would be accepted, because the assumption is that

21     his assistant is not somebody who's going to be telling children's tales

22     but would provide professional suggestions.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it from your answer that you have been

24     responsible for the military police in your unit.  Is that correct?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To a certain extent, yes.  I was in

Page 12948

 1     charge or responsible in the sense that I was overseeing whether the

 2     military police unit was executing the ordered and set assignments, and

 3     if they were having certain difficulties or hardships, I was there to

 4     help them to resolve those problems.  Of course, through other colleagues

 5     of mine at the corps command.  For example, if they were lacking certain

 6     supplies, then I would ask the assistant commander for logistics to

 7     provide them with what they needed.  For example, I would ask him on a

 8     priority basis to provide the military police battalion with --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you.  This was a very lengthy

10     answer.  I wanted to focus on the chain of command.

11             Who could issue orders to the military police in your unit?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander.  Exclusively the

13     commander.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not you?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could if the commander authorised

16     me to do so in certain situations because of an urgent matter, but such

17     situations were rare.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just briefly -- may I just

21     briefly -- for the purpose of clarity, could -- could not -- military

22     police units are issued an order for different assignments.  That order

23     is signed by the corps commander.  If a plan is made on how to engage

24     forces for a long-term period, then that plan of engagement is drafted by

25     me, but on the left-hand side of the heading of the plan there is a

Page 12949

 1     clause stating, "We authorise," and that is signed by the corps

 2     commander, which implies that that is his ultimate word in the chain of

 3     decision-making.  The battalion or some other military police unit is a

 4     unit just like any other corps unit.  It's subordinated to the corps

 5     commander.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Just to follow up on that a little bit, Colonel, can you tell the

10     Trial Chamber whether or not the military police battalion or elements of

11     the corps military police battalion is responsible for securing the

12     Batkovic prison camp?

13        A.   Yes, they were.  A part of the unit from the military police

14     battalion was entrusted for security for the collection centre, or the

15     camp as we refer to it sometimes.

16        Q.   And who was in charge of the military police unit that secured

17     the camp at Batkovic in 1995?

18        A.   Let me just take some time to recollect that.  The commander of

19     that small military police platoon at that time I think was Lujic.  Yes,

20     Lujic.  That is his surname.  I can't remember his first name right now.

21     And in that platoon of his or actually that segment of it that secured

22     the Batkovic collection centre were about 20 members of the military

23     police, mostly senior members, who in a way were "given the privilege" of

24     being there because of their age and possible other health difficulties,

25     thus avoiding placing them on some other more demanding assignments

Page 12950

 1     elsewhere that perhaps they were not physically up to.

 2        Q.   Who would be responsible for providing professional guidance,

 3     direction, or control to this military police battalion that was securing

 4     the Batkovic camp?

 5        A.   It's a part of the military police battalion.  That provisionally

 6     formed platoon from the military police battalion was practically

 7     resubordinated to the warden of the collection centre.  As for the

 8     professional line and the discipline it was under the control of the

 9     military police battalion Captain Major Dragisa Vulin.  This platoon

10     commander, Lujic, received his assignments and reported back on the state

11     of security to the komandir, whatever his name was, of the collection

12     centre.

13        Q.   I'm afraid either there was a translation problem or maybe we've

14     misunderstood one another.  In terms of the professional supervision or

15     control over elements of the military police battalion in your corps, was

16     that among your responsibilities as assistant commander for security and

17     intelligence?  Maybe that makes it a bit clearer.

18        A.   Yes.  One of the assignments conditionally divided into three

19     spheres, the intelligence sphere that I dealt with, the security sphere

20     or the counter-intelligence sphere, and the military police activities.

21     These three segments made up the activities of my sector.

22        Q.   Up until you received this information from General Tolimir that

23     some thousand or 1.200 or 1.300 prisoners would be arriving at the camp,

24     how many military policemen were stationed at the camp securing it?

25        A.   As for the military police during the preparations, a new

Page 12951

 1     contingent was not engaged.  The material preparations had just begun,

 2     emptying of the hangar and other material preparations in order to be

 3     able to receive the prisoners.  In the meantime, that activity was

 4     halted, and the new contingent, a strengthened contingent of military

 5     police from the battalion was never engaged.

 6        Q.   Well, how many were there when you got that -- when you were

 7     assigned that task?  Approximately.

 8        A.   As I said before, this was a smaller military police platoon

 9     numbering 20 to 25 men that worked in shifts.  So on a daily basis 10 of

10     them were engaged while the other 10 to 15 were resting.  So they worked

11     in shifts to provide the security.  The ones who were engaged on a daily

12     basis had a room where they could sleep so that in essence, possibly --

13     actually, not possibly, perhaps, you could have two or three active ones.

14     One would be at the reception, the others would be patrolling, and

15     perhaps some others would be in guardhouses in case they were needed.

16        Q.   From a professional or technical point of view as a security

17     officer or the chief security officer at the corps, would a shift of ten

18     military police be sufficient to secure a thousand to 1.300 prisoners?

19        A.   Well, no, it wouldn't be sufficient to secure that many

20     prisoners.  It would perhaps be the case that the commander, upon my

21     proposal to the corps commander, would receive the task to engage new

22     manpower in order to be able to deal with a convoy and the reception of

23     that number, but that actually never happened.

24        Q.   And I take it that it didn't happen in this instance because

25     there wasn't enough time for that to happen.  Is that fair to say,

Page 12952

 1     Colonel?

 2        A.   It did not happen solely because further preparations were

 3     stopped for their reception.  Had the preparations been underway, some

 4     other things would need to have been done.  As I said, emptying the

 5     hangars, providing minimum living conditions, providing additional water

 6     taps, providing latrines, providing a place for meals.  As I said, this

 7     was interrupted after a few days, and all the other activities then were

 8     actually never completed.

 9        Q.   With respect to your responsibilities as assistant commander for

10     security and intelligence in the corps, did you have certain concerns or

11     security concerns in relation to the operation of the Batkovic camp?

12        A.   Of course.  Just as in any other kind of organisational units or

13     units subordinated to the corps, I had concerns.  I mean, it was my duty

14     and my responsibility to apply methods that were at my disposal as the

15     chief of intelligence and security to acquire timely information and data

16     about the status in the Batkovic collection centre in order to make sure

17     that some secret preparations were not being made for escape, that there

18     was no mistreatment or illegal activity going on.

19             If I were to find out that sort of thing, I would inform the

20     commander and propose measures to him as how to deal with such matters.

21     We never had any serious information about any kind of problem of that

22     nature, however.  All the members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

23     who had spent a certain amount of time at the collection centre in

24     Batkovic had satisfactory conditions, the situation permitting at the

25     time, that would meet the minimum of their requirements.  For example,

Page 12953

 1     food was provided from the same sources as food that went to the corps

 2     command.  That means that we had -- I had the same lunch from the same

 3     cauldron that they had their lunch from.  Sometimes some supplies would

 4     be late in arriving, but that didn't happen very often.  This was in the

 5     immediate vicinity, so there was never any need for anything like that.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I have to put another

 7     question to the witness.

 8             Sir, you told us all the things to be done before the arrival of

 9     the prisoners.  This is understandable.  What was done before the order

10     came to interrupt these preparations?  What had been completed in the

11     meantime?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that a larger hangar had

13     been emptied of the wheat that had been drying in that place.  I remember

14     that personnel very quickly gathered all the grain, placed it in sacks

15     and transferred it somewhere else so that that location was emptied so

16     that we could put pallets and mats there for people to sleep on.  But the

17     whole activity was suspended when just a small part of all the things

18     that needed to be done was actually done.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were the pallets and mattresses put into the

20     hangar?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, they were not.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             As long as we're on this topic, could I have, please, in e-court

25     65 ter 1361.  2686, please.

Page 12954

 1        Q.   Do you recognise what you see on the screen in front of you,

 2     Colonel?

 3        A.   I do.  This is the farm at Batkovic where the collection centre

 4     was located.

 5        Q.   What I'd like you to do, if we can, is to mark this photograph so

 6     that we can identify the relevant parts of this facility for the

 7     Trial Chamber.  You had just been discussing a hangar that had to be

 8     emptied where some agricultural products -- or agricultural items were

 9     held or stored.  What I'd like you to do is to mark this photograph with

10     a number 1 where that hangar is.

11        A.   The hangar which was emptied where the wheat had been was this

12     one, I believe.  This 1 didn't come out that well, but that's the

13     building.

14        Q.   All right.

15        A.   That's where the preparations were begun.

16        Q.   Can you tell us where the prisoners -- first of all, were there

17     prisoners at the facility at the time that the preparations began and, if

18     so, about how many were there?

19        A.   There were approximately between 20 and 30 of them.

20        Q.   Can you indicate with a number 2 the building or the hangar in

21     which those prisoners were held.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Can you identify from this photograph where the reception area is

24     that you refer to in your testimony.

25        A.   Of the police, of the military police?

Page 12955

 1        Q.   Yes.  Yes.

 2        A.   This is the way in the compound.  This was the gate and

 3     guardhouse.

 4        Q.   Can you mark that with a number 3 next to what you've just drawn.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what are in the other buildings or what were in

 7     the other buildings in 1995 at the time you received this order to

 8     prepare to receive the thousand to 1.300 prisoners.

 9        A.   I didn't enter all the buildings, but I know that in this

10     building, which lacked some walls, I think it only had a wall on the

11     north-western side, and at the north-eastern side there was no wall.

12     This is where the agricultural machinery was kept.  It was a roofed

13     building, though.

14        Q.   Let's mark that, please, with number 4.

15        A.   [Marks] The same, but in this building there were some spare

16     parts for the machinery.

17             It was here.  The small building housed their own gas station

18     where they could fill the tanks of their agricultural machines.

19        Q.   Please number those 5 and 6 respectively.

20        A.   Five is the building where there were spare parts for the

21     machines, and six, I believe, was the gas station for the needs of the

22     farm.

23        Q.   Can you tell us what the long hangar -- what that hangar housed,

24     the one that's in the middle of the screen without a number?

25        A.   It's another hangar with some of the walls missing, if this is

Page 12956

 1     the one you have in mind, the one where I placed the dot.

 2        Q.   Please number that 7.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And can you tell us about --

 5        A.   It's an open area where there were all sorts of things, anything

 6     that might come in handy on such a military farm.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us about the building that's unmarked between 2 and

 8     5 as you've marked them on this photograph.

 9        A.   Do you mean this one?  I don't know exactly what was inside, but

10     it was in poor condition, so there were no conditions for accommodation

11     in it.  The only one which had relatively decent preconditions to house

12     people was the one I marked with 2, which had already been used for that

13     purpose, and we started preparing the building number 1 for the new

14     group.

15        Q.   The building that you've just -- that you just described and

16     placed a dot, could you number that building 8.  This is the one you said

17     you weren't sure of what was kept inside of it.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And in terms of the buildings 1 and 2 that you've marked on this

20     photograph, these were the buildings that were intended to house the

21     prisoners that were supposed to be sent to the camp as per the order of

22     General Tolimir; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.  On orders from the Main Staff.

24        Q.   And up until that point, that is, up until you received that

25     order, how many prisoners, roughly, at any given time were held at the

Page 12957

 1     Batkovic camp?

 2        A.   At the moment when the order arrived, there were between 20 and

 3     30.  They were members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the

 4     Bihac region, from Western Bosnia.  Unfortunately, the Army of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina did not want to consider them for an exchange.  They saw the

 6     end of the war there.  They saw the closure of Batkovic without being

 7     exchanged.  It was only after the ICRC intervened that they were sent on

 8     to third countries so that the entire collection centre could be shut

 9     down.  There were no other people that -- there at the moment that were

10     of interest.

11             In the building number 2, there could have been up to 400 people

12     accommodated, because these were large facilities where you could line up

13     people in at least four or five rows on makeshift beds that could be used

14     for prisoners.  The building number 2 was equipped in that sense.  There

15     were beds, blankets and the rest of things that were needed for their

16     accommodation.

17             In previous periods there may have been 30, 40, or 50 people

18     maximum.  However, the turnover was rather fast, because there was also

19     an interest on the other side to have such prisoner exchanges conducted

20     quickly.

21        Q.   Just so that -- and before I tender this document, but just so

22     that we have an idea of the size of these buildings, are you able to

23     estimate the size of any one of these buildings, 1, 2, 7?  Can you tell

24     us approximately how big it is, that is, how many metres it is, breadth

25     and length?

Page 12958

 1             If you can't that's all right, too, but let us know one way or

 2     the other.

 3        A.   I don't want to just mention a figure and then have to backpedal

 4     later.  That's not something I want to do.  The important thing is that

 5     the building number 2 was already used for that purpose, and it could

 6     house, at least in my view, between 3- and 400 people.  The building

 7     number 1 is approximately the same size or slightly bigger.  There were

 8     newer buildings with good, sound walls and roof, while the rest was

 9     almost derelict.  It was difficult to use it without some serious

10     reconstruction.

11        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago ICRC, and I wanted to ask you some

12     questions about that in relation to the prisoners that were kept or

13     detain at Batkovic prison.  Could you tell us when prisoners are brought

14     to the Batkovic prison, are they registered -- or were they registered at

15     the time by the ICRC?

16        A.   They were registered at Batkovic upon arrival.  Simultaneously, a

17     representative or the office of the ICRC in Bijeljina would be notified.

18     They wanted to be there as quickly as possible, usually within hours, to

19     take part in the registration process.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, let me tender this exhibit before

21     I forget.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This aerial photograph with the markings will be

23     received as an exhibit.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2686 marked by the

25     witness in the court shall be assigned exhibit number P2180.

Page 12959

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Tell us a little bit about how the ICRC is notified or receives

 3     information when a prisoner is brought to Batkovic.

 4        A.   The office of the ICRC that existed in Bijeljina was always in

 5     contact with the president of the POW exchange commission of the

 6     East Bosnia Corps.

 7        Q.   And who was that, for the record?

 8        A.   It was Major Ljubomir Mitrovic.

 9        Q.   Did the security organ at the corps have anything to do with or

10     any contact with prisoners that were held at the Batkovic prison?

11        A.   I didn't have much possibility or opportunity to make a clear

12     distinction or separation of work for my associates between security and

13     intelligence, because we were short of staff.  Therefore, it frequently

14     happened that people in charge of intelligence worked on

15     counter-intelligence and my own staff worked on intelligence matters as

16     well.  Therefore, members of my security intelligence department also

17     conducted interviews when POWs were received.  Those were short

18     interviews.  They wanted to know what unit they belonged to, whether they

19     were wounded, and their particulars, nothing more than that.

20             At the end of such interviews, they would share with me such

21     information they obtained through the interviews following the arrival of

22     POWs at the collection centre.

23        Q.   What would you do with the information that was brought back to

24     you by your assistants who interviewed prisoners at the camp?

25        A.   Depending on the nature of that information, because any type of

Page 12960

 1     information is used for future assessments, conclusions, and proposals,

 2     so it all depended on the type of information.

 3        Q.   Did you relay any of the information that you received to the

 4     superior security organ at the Main Staff level?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  Need I explain?

 6        Q.   Well, tell us what sort of information it was that you relayed up

 7     the security chain.

 8        A.   I was under an obligation to send daily reports on security and

 9     intelligence support in the corps.  That report included three sets of

10     intelligence matters or information.  The first set contained

11     intelligence information, that is to say, information about the enemy

12     obtained in various ways, including gathering information from the newly

13     arrived prisoners at the collection centre, for example.

14             Let's say five members of the Tuzla brigade were received at the

15     centre, out of which three were soldiers and one was a commissioned

16     officer and another one was an NCO.  I'm just making an example.

17             The first item of the report included intelligence gathered

18     through various methods, not only from the POWs but also from the front

19     lines and through other means that characterized the work of the service.

20             The second set included security issues that may have existed in

21     the units of the East Bosnia Corps, if there were any.

22             The third set included the work and engagement of MP units with

23     all the specific characteristics, issues, if there were any.

24             That was the format of the report.  Of course, there's no need

25     and I can't tell you specific information for the 1.000 days that I was

Page 12961

 1     there or so.  Of course, I informed the corps commander of all that

 2     directly through daily briefings in the evening.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, I have only one question.

 5             Sir, you mentioned the name of Major Ljubomir Mitrovic.  To which

 6     unit did this major belong?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't belong to any unit,

 8     but -- can I expand?  It takes a bit of explanation.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did he have a superior and, if so, who was it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, it's a specific case

11     in a way.  He was directly under the corps commander or under the corps

12     command, but he was an elderly man in poor health who before his

13     appointment to that position was a security organ of the

14     1st Semberija Brigade.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  His direct superior was the corps commander; is

16     that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let me add this:  In 1993,

18     when I was appointed to my position, there were certain problems with POW

19     exchanges which had to do with the then president of the POW Exchange

20     Commission.  It was then that General Simic, the corps commander, tasked

21     me to find a person appropriate to assume that position who would perform

22     that task better.

23             Taking into consideration the opinion of my subordinates, we

24     concluded that the best available person was Mr. Mitrovic.  He used to be

25     a teacher --

Page 12962

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I don't need the full

 2     record of this person.  I just wanted to know who was his superior.  I

 3     got the answer.

 4             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He frequently came to my office to

 7     consult so as not to go wrong in certain situations.  I had the feeling

 8     that he did so because he trusted me personally and because I was in a

 9     position that was of sufficient importance, and although my rank was

10     junior to the corps commander's rank, he still came to consult with me

11     frequently on certain matters.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you issue orders to him?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   In terms of the information that you relayed to the superior

17     security organ or the organ at the Main Staff, it was the case that you

18     relayed significant information that was conducted as a result of

19     interviews that your personnel carried out at Batkovic.  Is that fair?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And in addition to your obligation to relay information up the

22     chain, the security chain, you also received instructions to relay within

23     your corps from the Main Staff as concerns the treatment of prisoners of

24     war.  Is that fair?

25        A.   In principle, one could say so, although it is something that is

Page 12963

 1     regulated by army rules in general.  However, occasionally there were

 2     situations when instruction was sent in order to draw attention to

 3     important issues so as to avoid omissions.

 4        Q.   Let me show you P1970.  I think you've seen this document before.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   It's a Drina Corps document dated 15 April 1995.  You see at the

 7     end of the document that it's signed by Vujadin Popovic.

 8             First of all, do you recognise the name Vujadin Popovic?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  My colleague at the same level in the Drina Corps,

10     the same level of duties, the same level post.

11        Q.   And in this document, it refers to the arrest and detention of

12     POWs, and in the B/C/S, on the first page you can see the word

13     "instrukcija," instruction.  We can see that in the English on the second

14     page.  But on the first page there's an explanation given.

15        A.   Yes, I do.  I see it towards the bottom of the page,

16     "instrukcija," instruction.

17        Q.   And it says:

18             "Based on the information we received, negligent behaviour has

19     been noticed towards POWs from the moment they are captured to the moment

20     they taken to the Batkovic collection centre or to another place for

21     detention, as well as during the detention itself."

22             It goes on to provide other explanations for what is ultimately

23     an instruction as to how to deal with military prisoners of war.

24             So if we can go to the second page in the English.  And if we can

25     scroll a little bit to the left in the B/C/S so we can see the text.  We

Page 12964

 1     can see under item number 1, hopefully -- I don't know if we can go a

 2     little bit --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Item number 1 in B/C/S is on the screen, on the

 4     bottom of the page.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I just don't see number 1, and it looks like

 6     some of the letters are cut off on my screen, but ...

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it is to be seen on the left side.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Underneath the

 9     "Instruction."

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  We are not able to scroll over so the

11     witness can see?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The court usher, should we check the Prosecutor's

13     screen.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Maybe it's just me.

15        Q.   We can see under item number 1, it says:

16             "All prisoners, members of the enemy army are to be handcuffed or

17     their hands tied with anything available immediately after their

18     capture."

19             It says:  "They are to be searched.  All items are to be seized

20     apart from their clothing and footwear."

21             I think we have to go to the next page at some point in the

22     B/C/S.

23             "And an official record is to be completed."  Do you see that in

24     the instruction, Colonel?

25        A.   I do, I do.  I see it.  I'm already -- I've already moved on to

Page 12965

 1     the next page.

 2        Q.   All right.  That's good.  It also says that after the search,

 3     "... they are to be blindfolded at the place of detention prior to being

 4     led away in order to prevent them from observing anything."

 5             In the second paragraph and I won't go through the whole document

 6     but in the second paragraph it says that:

 7             "The location where POWs are collected must be such --"

 8             I see General Tolimir has his hand up.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The microphone, please.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to greet all those

13     present.  I would like to greet the witness.  I would like a pleasant

14     stay for the witness.  I would like today's day to end according to God's

15     will and not according to mine.  And --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his question.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your comment or question was not

18     interpreted and recorded.  Please repeat that.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the Prosecutor either

20     to quote the contents or to avoid retelling them, because then we get the

21     wrong interpretation, and then the witness will probably have the wrong

22     question.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I do appreciate

25     the objection, but I am actually reading the text of the English

Page 12966

 1     translation, and perhaps that's the source of the confusion if it's being

 2     interpreted live, but that's the best I can do since I can't read it in

 3     B/C/S.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we followed your reading by comparing with

 5     the English version.  Please continue.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   In the middle of the second paragraph it reads:

 8             "The location where POWs are collected must be such that the

 9     prisoners are fully secured, as well as the people from the security

10     organ, from the intelligence organ and the military police organ that

11     engages in the interrogation and guards POWs."

12             First, I just wanted to clarify something with you in terms of

13     this instruction.  Is it accurate that the security organ engages in the

14     interrogation of POWs as is certainly suggested in this second paragraph?

15        A.   Can be engaged if needed or as needed.  It's not something that

16     happens always, but the security organ can be engaged.

17        Q.   I want to take you over just to item number 6.  That should be on

18     the next page in English and --

19        A.   I have it in front of me.

20        Q.   Okay.  And under item number 6 it says:

21             "In compliance with the estimate of the responsible organ," and

22     then in brackets, "(investigating judge of the military court, security

23     organ, military police commander, military police patrol leader) the

24     arrested person will be transported with his hands tied and with

25     blindfold, or if necessary, with legs tied, especially if there is a

Page 12967

 1     danger of escape or if the person is being escorted along the front line

 2     through significant elements of the combat disposition; if he is being

 3     taken to a position in the unit's combat disposition; or if he is being

 4     taken to any significant position in the VRS unit's combat disposition."

 5             Do you see that there?

 6        A.   I do, yes, and I'm following it.  I'm following the text.

 7        Q.   All right.  Do you recall yourself having issued or passed on

 8     this very instruction within your corps?

 9        A.   Without thinking, I was obliged to pass it on to the subordinate

10     security organs in order to remind them of responsibilities that are

11     regulated anyway.  I don't have the right to keep something received from

12     a higher instance only for my own information.  That is not the purpose

13     of it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I kindly

16     ask for the heading to be shown to the witness so that we can see who

17     sent the document.  He thinks it was sent from the Main Staff, and if the

18     Prosecutor were to ask him whether he passed it on when he received it,

19     then we can see.  I mean, did he receive this document at all?  Thank

20     you.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have no problem with that.  We can go to the

22     first page of both documents.  I mean both in the B/C/S and in the

23     English.

24        Q.   When we look at the heading -- or, rather, I'm sorry, the first

25     paragraph, under "Arrest and detention of POWs," it reads that:

Page 12968

 1             "We received a telegram, strictly confidential number

 2     18/20-145-1/94 dated 01.04.1994, from the VRS Security Administration."

 3             And then it says:

 4             "The telegram outlines in detail the procedure during the

 5     detention or arrest of persons violating Rules and regulations.  We

 6     submit to you the instructions to you in full.  Inform military police

 7     units with the instruction and act upon the provisions listed."

 8             So I'll put this to you, Colonel?  Did you yourself receive such

 9     an order and pass it on within the corps?

10        A.   I assume that I did, because this is a document drafted by my

11     colleague Vujadin Popovic.  It was drafted on the basis of the telegram

12     he received from the security administration of the Main Staff of the

13     Army of Republika Srpska.  If I also received it, then it would have been

14     my duty to pass it on and to inform my associates within the department

15     and inform the subordinate military police units and lower-ranking units.

16     When instructions like this are received, they can be sent to all the

17     relevant units, to everybody, or they can be sent only to those units

18     where instances of negligence were observed.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President -- Mr. President, in light of the

20     witness's answer, I have a document that I'd like to show him.  It's

21     65 ter 7324.  It's -- it's a document -- before you load it up --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we, before you move to another document, see

23     the last page -- or the bottom of this page in English so that we have a

24     full picture of it.

25             Thank you.  We see the last page with the signature of

Page 12969

 1     Vujadin Popovic.

 2             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I was drawing the

 4     Court's attention to a document that is on my exhibit list.  It was not

 5     part of the Prosecution's original 65 ter list, but in light of the

 6     witness's answer, I think it would be helpful for the Trial Chamber to

 7     see it.  I -- I have communicated with Mr. Gajic with respect to some of

 8     the documents that are listed on the exhibit list which don't have

 9     original 65 ter numbers, so I would obviously ask the Court's leave to

10     show this document.  It's hard to show it to you to explain why it's

11     relevant without showing it to the witness, but it is directly relevant

12     to the questions that I've just put to him.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it included in the list of documents?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The exhibit list, it is, yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And can you -- now I see, yes.  It's 65 ter 7324.

16     Yes.  Please carry on with the leave of the Chamber.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             If I could show 65 ter 7324 in e-court, please.  And we'll just

19     look at the first part of it, and then what I'd like to do is to show

20     that next to P1970, just so the Chamber can see it.

21        Q.   Colonel Todorovic, this is a document as you can see headed -- it

22     says "Eastern Bosnia Corps Command, Security Department."  First, that

23     would be your area, wouldn't it?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   And you can see from this document that it concerns -- well,

Page 12970

 1     first it's dated 20 April 1995, which is five days after the instruction

 2     we just saw from the Drina Corps, which is dated 15 April 1995.  It

 3     concerns --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we have a look at the last document again.

 7     I was not sure if this is the correct date.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  I'm sorry.  I apologise.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just want to see --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I also noticed the date.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We can -- we can put it up side by side if

12     that --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a short look on the previous document.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It was P1970.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the English translation of P1970.

16             Thank you very much.  It was my mistake.  I saw another date.

17     It's fine.  This -- the document from the Drina Corps command is dated

18     15th of April, 1995.  Thank you.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:

22        Q.   In this document, that is the -- that's 65 ter 7324, we see here

23     in the first paragraph a reference to:

24             "Negligent behaviour that has been noticed towards POWs from the

25     moment they are captured to the moment they are taken to the Batkovic

Page 12971

 1     collection centre or to another place of detention, as well as during the

 2     detention itself."

 3             Do you remember having seen this document before testifying here

 4     today?

 5        A.   You mean this moment?

 6        Q.   Yeah.  Do you remember seeing it before you've seen it -- you're

 7     looking at it now?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.  I saw it last week while preparing for my testimony.

 9        Q.   And was it I who showed you this document?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Does this document contain the same instruction that we saw in

12     the document issued by the Drina Corps chief of security on 15 April 1995

13     to the subordinate units of that command?

14        A.   It does, yes, except that the introduction with me, my document,

15     is somewhat shorter.

16        Q.   And for you to have passed this information on, you would have

17     had to have received it.  That's pretty fair to say, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.  Correct.  That is why my answer a couple of minutes ago I

19     said if I received an instruction or a similar document from my superior

20     command or organ, that does not imply that I acquaint myself with the

21     instruction but inform also my subordinate organs and all the parties in

22     the corps and the corps units.  This document is headed "To the

23     3rd Military Police Battalion," only.  So from this you can see that on

24     the original, you can see who signed it and to whom the document was

25     sent.  Let's say one brigade of the East Bosnian Corps received this via

Page 12972

 1     telegram.  The battalion received it directly, because it was some 500

 2     metres away.  So it didn't have to be encrypted, but it was just put in

 3     an envelope and sent over by messenger, so that the commander of the

 4     3rd Battalion received the original with a proper stamp and signature not

 5     via telegram, which is how the colleague from the other corps battalions

 6     received it.  That is the only difference.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please see the last page in both

 9     versions.

10             Sir, do you recognise the signature on this page in B/C/S?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is my signature.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And underneath that there is a

14     remark that is handwritten.  Perhaps it's a bit hard to read, but it

15     states "Acquainted with," or "informed."  The company commander of the

16     armoured transporter unit, Tomic, he was probably standing in for the

17     commander at the time.  So to me that is confirmation that the other side

18     received the document on the basis of which they could further act.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, this document will be received as

20     an exhibit.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document 65 ter 7324 shall be

22     assigned exhibit number P2181.  Thank you, Your Honours.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Colonel, in relation to this instruction, we see that on your

25     copy of it, that's just been admitted into evidence, it was directed to

Page 12973

 1     the military police battalion of the East Bosnia Corps.  Is that right?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.  That is the copy that you are showing, but

 3     I do have a comment.  Since the battalion command was in the Bijeljina

 4     barracks, this document was sent to them directly for purposes of

 5     information by messenger.  And here, where you can see in the marker

 6     written "3rd Battalion of the military police," and then there's a free

 7     line, that line is used to note down all the units that are subordinated

 8     to me or to the corps command.  So other than the military police

 9     battalion, the documents were sent to the 1st, 3rd, 5th Brigades and all

10     the other units but you cannot see that from this document.  If you had

11     my original document then at the bottom it would state all the addressees

12     to whom the document was sent.  But this particular document was only

13     sent to the 3rd Battalion of the military police, but the line, the blank

14     line below the 3rd Battalion would indicate that the document was also

15     sent as a circular to all the other corps units --

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   -- to be acted upon.

18        Q.   Okay.  So this information, this instruction, emanated from the

19     Main Staff security administration, as we can see in P01970.  That's the

20     version of the instruction that was passed on by your colleague,

21     Vujadin Popovic in the Drina Corps.  And the tasks to which these

22     instructions relate, do -- do they involve the functions of the military

23     police with respect to the treatment of prisoners of war?

24        A.   I don't think I understood your question quite clearly.

25        Q.   Do the tasks that are -- that derive from these instructions, do

Page 12974

 1     they have anything to do with the functions of the military police?

 2        A.   Yes, they do.

 3        Q.   And you're obliged by your superior in the Main Staff security

 4     administration to communicate these instructions to the military police

 5     with respect to the handling of prisoners of war; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, and that is this document that we are looking at.

 7        Q.   Are you under a corresponding obligation to ensure that tasks

 8     over which you have professional control are implemented in accordance

 9     with these instructions?

10        A.   Of course, as is the case with all orders and tasks issued.  I

11     mean, if their implementation is not controlled, then there is no point.

12     Otherwise, we will not know if they were carried out, how they are

13     carried out.  After each assignment is completed there is control,

14     correction, additions, and so on and so forth.

15        Q.   When an instruction such as this one is issued and then passed on

16     through the corps commands to the subordinate units, including the

17     military police, is that done with the expectation that these

18     instructions are -- are met and carried out?

19        A.   Yes.  It is my duty to try to explain one thing.  An instruction,

20     that's why I signed it and not the corps commander, does not have the

21     force of an order.  It implies the duty to act correctly, professionally,

22     to instruct somebody, teach them, remind them of some duties that are

23     regulated anyway.  And for that reason, I signed the instruction and not

24     the corps commander in the sense of instructing the subordinates,

25     reminding them of certain -- actually, not certain but specific duties

Page 12975

 1     which are regulated by the rules on the use of military police and so on

 2     and so forth, because one of the assignments of military police units is

 3     to escort and provide security for prisoners of war, and while escorting

 4     and securing them, there are rules as to how this is supposed to be done

 5     in order to prevent their violations and negligence.  Sometimes it's

 6     necessary to issue instructions to remind them of these duties and

 7     responsibilities.  Sometimes even lectures are held in order to do this.

 8        Q.   The person who receives the instruction, are they duty-bound to

 9     follow it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think now is a good time for the break,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.  We adjourn and resume quarter past

15     6.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             If I could have 65 ter 4110 in e-court, please.

21        Q.   Colonel, I want to show you a document that I hope will be

22     responsive to some of the questions that were put to you by the

23     Trial Chamber as concerns why you received the telegram, as you state,

24     from General Tolimir concerning the prisoners from Srebrenica.

25             This is a document as you can see it's headed -- it says "Command

Page 12976

 1     of the Drina Corps, Intelligence Department."  It's dated 12 July 1995.

 2     And it's addressed to, among other units, your unit, your command, as

 3     well as to the intelligence and security departments and directed to the

 4     Pribicevac IKM, to General Krstic, and to Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic at

 5     the Bratunac IKM.

 6             If I could just show you page 2 of this document in both the

 7     B/C/S and English.  You see at the very top of the page it says:

 8             "Chief, Major-General Zdravko Tolimir."

 9             Now, what I want to ask you in particular is do you have a

10     recollection of having received this document?  Let's start there.

11             If you have a need to look at the substance of it, I can go over

12     some of it with you if that will help you.

13        A.   I briefly looked at the first page while it was still on the

14     screen.  However, I believe I should have received it based on its

15     contents, although I can't recall when I received it.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 1.  The

18     witness asked to see it, I believe.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  There is page 1.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.  This document

21     must have been received.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  By you.  Correct?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see from the document that

24     it was sent to the adjacent corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija and the

25     Eastern Bosnia Corps to the north and south for their information.

Page 12977

 1             As for the tasks, they mainly pertained to the command and units

 2     of the Drina Corps.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   All right.  I just want to go over some of the substance of this

 5     document.  The first thing is you can see it's dated the 12th of July,

 6     1995.  And then you can see that it's directed to the security organs,

 7     and about, let's say -- it says in the second paragraph:

 8              "On 12th July at 1945 hours, a radio network of elements of the

 9     28th Muslim Division was activated ..."

10             And then it talks about elements of that division came across

11     "our minefield in the sector of Ravni Buljim."

12             If you go to the fourth paragraph it reads that:

13             "Those who communicated over the radio network were extremely

14     frightened and yet undecided about the direction of breaking through the

15     line of defence of the Zvornik Brigade and the 1st -- and the

16     1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade."

17             It says:

18             "In addition to, it's not clear whether all elements of these

19     units had been pulled out from the area of the former Muslim enclave of

20     Srebrenica since they were discovered in the early morning hours after

21     they had activated our minefield."

22             And what I want to focus your attention on in particular is that

23     it says in the next paragraph:

24             "All electronic surveillance units of the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the East Bosnia Corps and the Drina Corps shall

Page 12978

 1     focus on surveillance and monitoring radio communications between these

 2     Muslim groups which operate on frequency 164 800."

 3             First, from this document it appears that your corps had a

 4     surveillance unit capable of monitoring the area in which these

 5     individuals were fleeing from the enclave of Srebrenica.  Is that -- is

 6     that true?

 7        A.   The following is true:  The command of the East Bosnia Corps had

 8     a platoon for electronic surveillance or electronic reconnaissance, which

 9     means they used electronic devices to monitor radio networks.  They

10     obtained information through such surveillance.  However, this doesn't

11     mean that they were capable of seeing physically any of those members.

12     You know how radio waves spread and how they can be intercepted.

13             This task was received, and this was the frequency.  It may have

14     changed, but the operators in charge monitored all frequencies.  We were

15     under an obligation to inform if we obtained any information even absent

16     this order.  We always had to inform our superiors, as I have explained

17     already.

18        Q.   Well, there's two things about this document that I wanted to ask

19     you about.  The first is you can see what its subject matter concerns,

20     and that is individuals that are fleeing the area of -- of Srebrenica,

21     and that particular information, from this document it appears to have

22     been communicated to the Eastern Bosnian Corps command and in particular

23     to the security organs.  Do you have a recollection of receiving this

24     information on that date concerning these individuals?

25        A.   I said in my answer previously that I must have received this

Page 12979

 1     information.  There is no reason to doubt that.  However, its contents

 2     primarily had to do with the units that were along the route the

 3     28th Division members took en route to Tuzla.  The part which I

 4     understood pertains to me is in this part where it says, "All electronic

 5     surveillance units of the SRK, IBK, and DK, shall focus on surveillance."

 6     The rest did not have anything to do with the East Bosnia Corps units,

 7     because we were at least some 50 kilometres away.

 8        Q.   If we can go to the second page of this document.  And if you

 9     look at -- I think we have to go also to the B/C/S.  If you look at the

10     top of the page in B/C/S and the third paragraph in English, you can see

11     here that General Tolimir states:

12             "Although it is very important to arrest as many members of the

13     shattered Muslim units as possible, or liquidate them if they resist, it

14     is equally important to note down the names of all men fit for military

15     service who are being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base in Potocari."

16             Insofar as this concerns individuals who have surrendered and may

17     be arrested, it concerns, would it not, prisoners of war?

18        A.   One could draw that conclusion, but neither then nor now can I

19     remember my precise role and place in all that.  I wasn't in Potocari,

20     and I didn't have anything to do with that part of obligations.  I can

21     only draw conclusions based on the document itself.  Anything else would

22     be something that is not my direct experience.

23        Q.   All right.  But this is a document, as you said, that you should

24     have received, even though you were 50 kilometres away, as the chief of

25     security of the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  Is that right?

Page 12980

 1        A.   That is not in dispute.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to -- I'd like to tender this document,

 4     Mr. President, if I could.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the same document with

 8     the same ERN number is already in evidence as D64.  It is literally the

 9     same.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this information.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'll happily accept

12     that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I had a recollection that I saw this already.

14     The registrar will check if that is the same document.

15             Mr. Gajic, you are absolutely right.  It is already in evidence.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:

17        Q.   Let me just quickly show you -- well, before I show you this

18     document, let me just ask you a question.  The date of this document that

19     I've just shown to you now, D64, I think it's referred to now, is 12

20     July.  Is that about the time that you received the information from

21     General Tolimir concerning the arrival of a thousand to 1.300 prisoners

22     at Batkovic?

23        A.   In Belgrade and during proofing a few days ago, I already said

24     that it was in the course of the same few days.  I don't know whether it

25     was on the 11th or the 12th or the 13th.  In any case it was in that

Page 12981

 1     short period.

 2        Q.   I think you said a little bit earlier on in the transcript that

 3     it was about two or three days after that that you called General Tolimir

 4     because the prisoners hadn't arrived.  Do you remember that testimony?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.  And I also explained why I called him.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could I have 1D733, please, in e-court.  And

 7     we'll need to go to page 40 in the English and page 38, I believe, in the

 8     B/C/S.

 9        Q.   In your interview on the 2nd of February, 2010, you were asked

10     the following question, and I guess I'll read to put it in context from a

11     little bit -- from probably line 6 or so where you were asked.

12             "Ok, but you said also that it could be the following morning,

13     the following day in the morning."

14             And that's referring to contacting General Tolimir.  And you say:

15             "I am really not able to give you an exact answer, not that I

16     don't want to, it's just that I ..."

17             And you were put another question:

18             "Ok, ok, now if I understood you correctly you said it was 24

19     hours later that you contacted him on the orders of Novica Simic to see

20     what was going on when the prisoners would arrive?"

21             And your answer was:

22             "Yes.

23             Question:  "Do you remember that --"

24             Or, rather:  "You remember that?

25             "Maybe 24, maybe 48, but quite soon."

Page 12982

 1             I understand there is a disparity in the English and B/C/S, but

 2     the gist of it is essentially one or two days.  Do you see that in your

 3     answer to the questions that were put to you during your interview?

 4        A.   There is some of what you are asking me about on this page, but I

 5     guess the rest spills over to the next page.  On this page we have the

 6     beginning of preparations.

 7        Q.   On the page in front of you, you will see midway through it, it

 8     says, "Da li je 24 ili i vise ..."

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  I see it.

10        Q.   What does that say so that we're clear for the record.  You can

11     read it out.

12        A.   It reads:  "Very well.  You said that 24 hours later you called

13     on orders by Novica Simic to check what was going on."

14             "Yes.

15             "And where the prisoners were.

16             "Whether it was 24 or more, well, now, two days may have gone by,

17     but shortly thereafter.

18             "So quite shortly thereafter?

19             "Yes.

20             "So it is possible the next day at around the same time, 24

21     hours?

22             "More than 20."

23             From the moment when the telegram arrived with instructions for

24     preparations until the moment I learned that the preparations were to be

25     stopped.  I think it was more than 24 hours.  Whether it was two days or

Page 12983

 1     three days, that I really can't say.  It's difficult for me to say.  It's

 2     difficult to be precise, to tell you it was at that particular time.  You

 3     know what conditions we lived under at the time, and frequently we even

 4     lost track if it was morning or evening because we had a lot of work to

 5     do, and one cannot remember such details, at least not for a long time.

 6        Q.   Well, do you stand by what you said in your interview?

 7             We can all see it here, so do you stand by it is the question?

 8        A.   That's clear.  There's no reason for me to change anything.  From

 9     this interview or from the conversation with you a few days ago I told

10     you that remember the gist of it but I can't recall details.  I can't

11     say, decidedly, it was at this hour and this minute.  I understand these

12     are big issues, but time takes its toll on my memory.  It's difficult.

13     It's not that I don't want to, but, really, I can't.  I can't say with

14     full responsibility that it was 24 hours later, 48 hours later.  In any

15     case, it was more than one day, because we had already started

16     preparations following the order.  The hangar with wheat was emptied, and

17     it could not have been done in five to ten hours.  First we had to notify

18     the management of the farm, then they had to bring in the vehicles.  So

19     it must have taken at least a day for those things alone, following which

20     we were advised to halt any further preparations.  That is why I conclude

21     that it was more than 24 hours.  I'm not saying this because I'm certain

22     it was 30 hours, though, or five days.

23        Q.   All right, Colonel.  Thank you.  I want to take you to another

24     area, if I could.  I want to ask you a little bit about the Vanikov Mlin

25     prison.  Do you know what I'm talking about, first of all?

Page 12984

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber where that prison is.

 3        A.   That prison is in the town of Bijeljina itself, next to the gate

 4     to the military barracks.  If you were going that way, to the right would

 5     be the barracks and to the left there is the former mill, which was

 6     abandoned, and the premises were used to place vehicles and equipment

 7     belonging to the military police, and among other things, military

 8     detention was in the same building.

 9        Q.   And what was the relationship of this prison to the

10     East Bosnia Corps, if any?

11        A.   The military detention unit was an organisational unit of the

12     command of the East Bosnia Corps.  It was part of the garrison command,

13     to be more specific.  There was the garrison commander who was

14     subordinated to the corps commander.  The garrison command dealt with

15     different issues such as housing and health issues ending with the

16     military detention unit.  The garrison command was at the helm, and he

17     was directly subordinated to the corps commander.

18        Q.   Who was the garrison commander in 1995?

19        A.   The garrison commander from 1994 until the end was

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Petar Jovanovic.  He died in the meantime.

21        Q.   Did the prison have a warden?

22        A.   Yes, there was a military prison warden.  His name was

23     Milan Savic.

24        Q.   Now, you've said that the -- well, let me ask, rather.  Was the

25     prison subordinated to the corps commander?

Page 12985

 1        A.   I've already said that.  Through the garrison commander; it was

 2     part of the garrison command.  The garrison command is subordinated to

 3     the garrison commander and its complete structure.

 4        Q.   And you said that it's a military detention unit.  What kind of

 5     prisoners are held in this facility?

 6        A.   The facility held members of the Army of Republika Srpska

 7     exclusively due to different reasons, disciplinary violations and

 8     violations of military rules.

 9        Q.   The violations of military rules and disciplinary violations, are

10     those matters within the competence of the security organ within the

11     corps in any respect?

12        A.   No.  Disciplinary measures for violations are under the

13     jurisdiction of the military commanders.

14        Q.   And with respect to the security facilities or security

15     personnel, rather, at this prison do you have -- or would you have had at

16     the time any professional control as you would over, for example, the

17     military police as the security organ in the corps?

18        A.   The similar applies as for the collection centre in Batkovic.  As

19     part of military detention unit, there was a section of the military

20     police which was providing security for the detention area, and my task

21     and role was in overseeing the overall work of the members of the

22     military police.  If there was a need, I would also oversee the work of

23     those members of the military police battalion who were providing

24     security in the military detention unit.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 12986

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the witness

 2     not be asked about professional issues.  I mean, by profession he's a

 3     military officer.  Official duties is one thing.  There's a difference

 4     between professional duties and official duties.  I am just observing

 5     that the questions being put to the witness concern his professional

 6     position or attitude even though he himself never mentioned that.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this witness is capable to answer the

 8     questions put to him by the Prosecutor, and he may distinguish between

 9     different terms, but you may deal with that during cross-examination,

10     Mr. Tolimir.

11             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And if I did make the

13     reference to professional control, I certainly meant it in the context of

14     the specialist control, a professional subordination that the witness had

15     been talking about in his testimony till now.

16        Q.   You mentioned that the prison was used or that there were

17     exclusively VRS personnel that were prisoners in this prison.  Were there

18     prisoners that were detained in this prison that were not VRS personnel?

19        A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, sometimes at certain points in time

20     they were being brought to the prison premises, to the offices of the

21     military detention facility for informative talks and not to be,

22     conditionally speaking, become the population of that prison.

23             For example, if an interview was supposed to be conducted with

24     somebody who was at the Batkovic collection centre, for example, then

25     there was the option of ordering some of those people by first and last

Page 12987

 1     name to be brought to the warden of the military detention unit, to his

 2     office, so that one of the security organs, an investigative judge or

 3     another authorised person could speak with that person.  After that they

 4     would be returned to Batkovic.  So that was the only way in which from

 5     time to time members who were actually -- or persons who were not members

 6     of the VRS could happen to be in that building.

 7        Q.   Members -- or I should say persons who were not members of the

 8     VRS who were there as prisoners would be prisoners of war, wouldn't they?

 9        A.   Yes.  There couldn't be anyone else.

10        Q.   And if they were brought to the prison for what you've referred

11     to as a -- informative talks, I just want to clarify what that is.  Do

12     you mean by that interrogation or an interview?

13        A.   There was an interview conducted with them.  Sometimes on the

14     basis of that conversation, if there were elements there, perhaps an

15     investigating judge would join in this interview, but perhaps if

16     indications were there that it was necessary to conduct an interview

17     based on initial information because one had received this certain or

18     given information.

19        Q.   When prisoners were brought there, as you said, from Batkovic,

20     for example, to be interrogated, were these prisoners that had already

21     been registered with the ICRC?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And was it the case that prisoners who were brought to this

24     prison -- POWs, I'm sorry, that were brought to this prison had been

25     registered with the ICRC either before being brought there or upon being

Page 12988

 1     brought there?

 2        A.   They were registered when they entered the Batkovic collection

 3     centre.  If needed, on the basis of initial information to broaden the

 4     interview, then subsequently, so that somebody didn't have to go to

 5     Batkovic, there were examples when the warden of the collection centre

 6     was called and he was told, "Send such and such a person escorted by the

 7     military police to Vanik's Mlin, Vanik's Mill for the purposes of an

 8     interview with him."

 9        Q.   What about prisoners that were brought there who didn't come to

10     Batkovic?  Were those prisoners registered with the ICRC at the time they

11     arrived or beforehand?  Can you tell us about that?

12        A.   Well, this is a question that deals with possibilities to which I

13     don't really have any concrete answers.  I would like a more specific

14     question, please.

15        Q.   When a prisoner is registered with the ICRC, is that something

16     that you as the chief of security would be informed about?

17        A.   Lists were not in my -- under my authority.  I was not supposed

18     to receive complete lists.  The president of the Commission for Exchange

19     received complete list, and he would submit a report to the corps

20     commander -- or, rather, he would match up the lists with representatives

21     of the International Committee of the Red Cross at their office in

22     Bijeljina, and the Bijeljina office of the ICRC had unimpeded daily

23     24-hour access and entrance to the collection centre.  So there was no

24     need, nor was it possible for anybody to be concealed who was not

25     registered and who was not in evidence.

Page 12989

 1             There's one detail, perhaps I didn't mention it, but for the

 2     purposes of clarity of all of this.  Besides the ID card -- or the card

 3     for each prisoner of war, there was also a register book of all the

 4     prisoners of war.  When the war was finished and when the collection

 5     centre was disbanded, I personally kept this register for some two years

 6     at least.  I even took it with me out of the premises for fear that it

 7     would be lost unintentionally or deliberately, so then later on we would

 8     not have any material evidence that things were the way we said they

 9     were.  And when in Banja Luka, the Government of Republika Srpska drafted

10     records and lists of the total number of casualties and losses, then the

11     register book was handed over to the commission in Banja Luka so that

12     they could have it and compare that record with some of their own lists

13     and records.

14        Q.   Was it the case that there were prisoners brought to this prison,

15     Vanikov Mlin prison, by the security administration of the Main Staff?

16        A.   For a brief period.  Perhaps for a day or two or three.  After

17     the fall of Srebrenica - and I really cannot tell you the exact dates of

18     the beginning and the end, but in any case, it's the fall of Srebrenica -

19     the team that was conducting the interviews - I think they were from the

20     intelligence sector of the Main Staff - used Vanik mill facilities for

21     these interviews since they're probably -- it's my assumption that they

22     did not have any suitable premises at their disposal in the south, but

23     the registering of these persons was not something that was part of my

24     duties, and they were not obliged to inform me about that, nor did I

25     express any kind of curiosity on that matter.

Page 12990

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I see that we're out of time, so

 2     this is a good place to stop.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.  Can you give us an indication about

 4     the remainder of your examination-in-chief?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I somehow knew you were going to ask me that.  I

 6     think I've got three hours and 15 minutes in.  I've estimated four, which

 7     I think might have been a little bit more conservative than I thought,

 8     but I don't think it'll be much more than four anyway, maybe four and a

 9     half hours, I hope to finish.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             Mr. Gajic, we will come back to the discussion at the outset of

12     our hearing today with the reception of number -- of documents and the

13     numbering of them by tomorrow, I hope.

14             We have to adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow in the

15     morning at 9.00 in Courtroom II.

16             We adjourn.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day

19                           of April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.