1 Tuesday, 19 April 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom, to
6 those who are listening and watching the procedure.
7 The witness should be brought in, please.
8 Just for the record, the Chamber is sitting with two Judges
9 pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 WITNESS: MILENKO TODOROVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Please sit down.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back to the courtroom. I have to remind
16 you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of
17 your testimony yesterday still applies. Mr. Vanderpuye has more
18 questions for you.
19 Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
21 Your Honours; good morning, everyone.
22 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
23 Q. And good morning to you, Colonel. I wanted to clarify something
24 before we move on in the record. Yesterday, I have it at page 67 in the
25 transcript, you were commenting on how long a period had elapsed between
1 the time you received this direction to prepare the Batkovic prison and
2 the time it was that you called General Tolimir because the prisoners
3 hadn't arrived, and in lines 18 through 20 of the transcript, your
4 recorded as having said in regards to our discussion about this:
5 "That is why I conclude that it was more than 24 hours. I'm not
6 saying this because I'm certain it was 30 hours." And then it says
7 "though," t-h-o-u-g-h, "or five days."
8 I just want to clarify with you. Did you actually ever say "five
9 days" in that context?
10 A. I don't have perfect memory, but when I was explaining it, I was
11 trying to make a point that it could not have been less than 24 hours. I
12 explained that some work had already been done in terms of emptying the
13 building and all the wheat taken out. It could not have been done in
14 less than 24 hours. It took some time for the task to be conveyed and
15 those responsible at the farm to organise themselves. It all needed at
16 least 24 hours or more, so I made a reference to a few days. In our
17 language, it could mean two, three, or up to five days. I don't know if
18 I said five days exactly, but in any case, several days and more than 24
20 Q. I'm glad I asked you that, and the reason is because in your
21 interview you haven't mentioned anything more than 48 hours. Would you
22 agree that that's the case?
23 A. I repeat, I don't have a perfect memory of what I said. I didn't
24 come with any answers prepared beforehand. I provide honest answers, and
25 I'm trying as best as I can to recall as many details as possible.
1 It was more than 24 hours. Whether it was two, three days, or
2 even five days, that is something I can't tell you from this position.
3 Q. I appreciate that, but my question is whether during the course
4 of your interview on the 2nd of February, 2010, or the 3rd of February,
5 2010, you ever mentioned that the period of time between when you
6 received this task and when you called General Tolimir with respect to
7 it, that you never mentioned that it was anything more than 48 hours.
8 Would you agree that that's the case? I'm not asking you about your
9 present recollection of the events. I'm asking about what's in your
10 statement that you acknowledged and stood by yesterday.
11 A. I read the transcript that was given to me of my interview of the
12 2nd of February, 2010, although not in detail. I didn't study it in
13 detail intentionally so as not to provide identical answers, so as to
14 appear that I have prepared myself or that I was prepared by someone else
15 as to what I would say or change. That is why I'm trying to speak
16 spontaneously and responsibly, because I'm trying to recall as many
17 details as possible in answers to your questions.
18 I accept that in the interview I may have mentioned the figures
19 of 24 or 48 hours. Much as I'm saying now, it was more than one day and
20 up to a few days. Forty-eight hours is two days. In our language it can
21 frequently be within a given span that need not translate accurately into
22 different languages.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I think you receive the answer I
24 think now two or three times. There is no need for repetition, I think.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I do want to advise
1 the Court that in light of the witness's answers I will be tendering that
2 transcript because I think it is important for the Court to see what it
3 is the witness has testified to -- or, rather, has stated previously in
4 contrast to what the witness is testifying to before the Trial Chamber,
5 particularly since the witness now claims that he doesn't have a present
6 recollection of the statement itself as opposed to the events. That's
7 the reason why I've put the questions to him, and I think the record is
8 clear on that.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Yesterday we left off and I was asking you about the Vanikov Mlin
12 prison. Do you remember that, Colonel?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in particular, I asked you whether it was the case, or not,
15 if members of the Main Staff security administration brought prisoners to
16 that facility. Do you remember that?
17 A. I remember -- well, I can't be specific. I think I said
18 yesterday that it could have been on the 12th or the 13th. In any case,
19 a few days following the fall of Srebrenica. A certain number of Army of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina members, probably from the Srebrenica area, were
21 brought in by the intelligence organs of the security administration of
22 the Main Staff. They brought them in, and they conducted interviews with
23 them in Bijeljina in Vanikov Mlin.
24 Q. How many people do you recall were brought to that facility by
25 the Main Staff security administration to be interviewed or questioned?
1 A. It's not a matter of my recollection. I didn't know then, and I
2 don't know now, since the superior command was not under an obligation to
3 inform me of either the numbers of those people or the contents of their
4 interviews. I simply say that a number of them was brought in, but I
5 don't know anything more specific than that. I remember a single name of
6 a person from that group for other reasons, but you have to put me a
7 question if you need to know why and who that person was.
8 Q. I'll put that question to you in a moment, but how many people do
9 you recall roughly? Was it a large number of people? Forty, 50 people?
10 Ten or 12 people? Can you give us an approximation to the best of your
12 A. Well, the number was not great. I don't know what to say
13 exactly. Ten, 12, 13. These were human beings, not objects. Therefore,
14 I don't want to speculate with numbers. There weren't that many.
15 Perhaps around ten, conditionally speaking. I don't know exactly.
16 Since -- since we're discussing this topic, I suppose they were, in a
17 way, in agreement with being interviewed. You know what the situation
18 must have been like. If you are in dire straits, you may well consent to
19 giving an interview just to get out of trouble. I don't know what was
20 going on exactly.
21 I suppose -- or, rather, I'm relatively certain that in the
22 log-book of the detention unit at Vanikov Mlin, there must be the names
23 of those held there, and if needed, it could be checked with the prison
24 warden who is still alive, I believe.
25 Q. All right. Who from the Main Staff brought these prisoners to
1 that facility to be interviewed? Who from the security administration of
2 the Main Staff escorted these prisoners or interviewed them?
3 A. It's a difficult question. That is difficult to answer. Who
4 brought them in? I don't know, not for sure, given that some members of
5 the intelligence organ were also in Bijeljina in their intelligence
6 sub-centre. They acted as hosts, so to speak for -- for those
7 interviews. It was announced to them, and they were included in the
8 whole thing. I don't know who in the chain was responsible for bringing
9 those people in and who organised the interviews.
10 At that time, as well as at other times, I had a number of my own
11 tasks to tackle, so I didn't get involved if it wasn't necessary. The
12 Drina Corps command had two forward points in Brcko and Majevica. I had
13 to go there daily, collect information, issue instructions. I had to be
14 present there physically, and I was under an obligation to perform all
15 those tasks, although I had a very small number of staff.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could I have 65 ter -- or, rather, P2176 in
17 e-court, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document in Serbian is quite
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have a hard copy of it --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The registrar just printed out a hard copy. It
22 may be given to the witness.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Are you able to read the document now, Colonel?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, are you able to read the document now? I'm
1 asking you, Witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to make out the sense of
3 the first two rows.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was not the question. If you are able to
5 read it. Is it legible?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hardly.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you.
8 Mr. Gajic.
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.
10 Mr. President, I think on the Prosecution list there is a 65 ter
11 document number 7321. I believe that version of this same document is
12 quite legible. Perhaps we could try placing that one on the screen.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It seems to be a bit better. And perhaps the
14 registrar could print it and give a hard copy to the witness.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read from the monitor too.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, thank you for your assistance.
17 Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 If the witness can't read it, I have, I think, a legible copy in
20 B/C/S in my hand, so if that becomes a problem we should be able to go
22 Q. In any event, Witness, you can see that this document is from the
23 Main Staff, from the sector for security and intelligence affairs, the
24 security administration, and is directed to the security department of
25 the Eastern Bosnia Corps. That would be your department. Isn't that
2 A. Yes. The copy I have now is legible, and if I may, I'd like to
3 go through it to jog my memory.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please answer first the question that
5 Mr. Vanderpuye put to you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apologies. I wasn't paying
7 attention enough. I was looking at the page, and I overheard the
8 question. Could you repeat.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. It is directed to the security department, East Bosnia Corps.
12 That would be your department. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. In the body of this document -- well, first we should go -- you
15 can see on your page, if we go to the -- all right. It's on the first
16 page in any event. We can see this is signed by
17 Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you familiar with Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara?
20 A. I am, but I see something that is illogical on this document. In
21 the heading it says the --
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... We can just go with the
23 questions first, and we'll get to your issues, okay? If that's all
25 A. Yes, I know him.
1 Q. What was his position in 1995?
2 A. He was the chief of the security administration as part of the
3 intelligence and security sector.
4 Q. Of the Main Staff?
5 A. Yes, of the Main Staff.
6 Q. And in this document we see a very specific reference to an
7 individual code-named Atlantida. Do you see that?
8 A. I can see it.
9 Q. In this document, it reads that:
10 "Since the current accommodation of Atlantida is not appropriate
11 and has raised public attention and in view of the fact that we need
12 Atlantida to point out possible directions and sources for further
13 collection of documents and in order to file criminal charges against
14 criminals, it is necessary to secretly transfer Atlantida in the night of
15 10 to 11 June," as it's recorded here, "1995 or some other suitable time
16 to the Mlin Military Prison in Bijeljina."
17 That would be the facility that we've been just talking about.
18 Isn't that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That's the facility that's secured by members of the military
21 police battalion of the East Bosnia Corps over whom you had specialist
22 control; right?
23 A. Yes, along professional lines.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Specialist or professional control are different terms, and I'd kindly
3 like to ask the Prosecutor to bear that in mind when putting questions.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. You can see further in this -- in the second paragraph of this
7 document that it says:
8 "Captain Carkic will make arrangements for this with the brigade
9 commander, Major Rajko Kusic, and personally carry out the task by
10 notifying OB security organ of the East Bosnia Corps Chief
11 Colonel Todorovic about his arrival and will be -- and will in personal
12 contact explain our requests."
13 Do you see that? Do you see that, Colonel?
14 A. I can see that. I am comparing the legible with the illegible
16 Q. Are you the Colonel --
17 A. They are the same.
18 Q. Are you the Colonel Todorovic that's referred to in this
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Do you know who this Captain Carkic is who's referred to in this
23 A. I suppose it was someone from up there. I can't remember his
24 face or name, but if he introduced himself to me at that time as
25 Captain Carkic, then I accepted him as such, especially because prior to
1 his arrival I had received a telegram notifying me of that. But either
2 before that or after that, that name and rank didn't mean much to me
3 because he wasn't from my unit.
4 My task based on this was something I probably did through the
5 garrison commander, and that was to provide accommodation for him and
6 security. That's the scope of my activities concerning this issue and
7 the code-name Atlantis. It probably referred to someone who was not from
8 my unit. Otherwise, I could probably recall a name or a person. In any
9 case, I don't know what Atlantida stands for, who the person in question
10 is. It was my task to provide accommodation and to provide conditions
11 for the official work that had to be done, which is something I probably
12 did through the garrison commander. I probably called him and told him
13 to provide an off -- an office, a space where someone would come in and
14 work once they arrived from the Main Staff.
15 There is an illogical matter, though, which might be a
16 typographical error. It seems it was drafted on the 10th of August, but
17 it says that during the night between the 10th and the 11th of July -- or
18 June it was supposed to take place. This doesn't make sense. So it was
19 probably between the 10th and the 11th of August. And there seems to be
20 something wrong with the signature. It says "Sector for security and
21 intelligence." The chief of that sector was General Tolimir and not
22 Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara. He was only chief of the security
23 administration that was part of the sector. It may be a formality, but I
24 don't know how important it is.
25 Q. I appreciate that information, and in fact, the Trial Chamber has
1 received information -- or evidence, I should say, concerning the date
2 upon which Atlantida was transferred to the Mlin Military Prison that
3 we've spoken about.
4 Now, do you have information that the Atlantida that's referred
5 to in this document was Colonel Avdo Palic, commander of the
6 Zepa Brigade?
7 A. Of course, the subsequent sequence of events pointed toward that
8 logical conclusion that the person in question may have been
9 Colonel Avdo Palic. I can explain if you wish.
10 Q. Explain how it is that you know that Atlantida is Colonel Palic.
11 A. I did not know, nor have I said that I know now, but that's a
12 logical inference I make, because after this date -- I don't remember
13 exactly which date it was. You showed me a document in which that date
14 is mentioned. During the night, that's when I learned his name,
15 Major Pecanac, Dragomir Pecanac or Dragoljub Pecanac, came to fetch
16 Colonel Palic. He came from the security administration of the
17 Main Staff. He arrived to take away Avdo Palic from the military
18 detention centre to Vanikov Mlin, to the Main Staff.
19 Since the warden of the military detention centre didn't know
20 Pecanac personally, Major Pecanac, it seems suspicious to him that
21 somebody should arrive in the middle of the night and take away a
22 prisoner, so that the prison warden, Milan Savic, was -- was in a -- in
23 an uncomfortable situation.
24 During that period, round about midnight or shortly after
25 midnight - certainly it was very late and I was asleep in bed - he called
1 me up and asked me, "Buddy," he didn't even address me as Colonel, he
2 said, "Buddy, I've got a problem." And I asked him, "What kind of
3 problem. I'm sure it's a problem given the fact you're calling me at
4 this hour." And he said, "You know, the one who is in detention here,
5 the VIP," he wouldn't say his name. Although at the time as far as I
6 remember, I didn't really know the name nor was I especially interested.
7 He said, "Some major arrived. He says his name is Pecanac and that he's
8 from the security and intelligence administration of the Main Staff, and
9 he wants to take him there, to the Main Staff."
10 And I asked him, "So what's the problem? Is it -- is the person
11 there, prisoner?" And he answered, "Yes, it's their prison." And I
12 said, "So, what's the problem?" And he answered, "The problem is that he
13 doesn't want to sign" that he took over the detained person, Avdo Palic,
14 at such and such an hour. And I said, "Of course you must do it, because
15 it's not a glass of water that you can just give anybody without
16 registering it." And he says, "Yes. That's what I told him, but he
17 won't do it. He's standing right next to me. Maybe you want to talk to
18 him." And he gave me Major Pecanac on the phone. I asked him, "Well,
19 Pecko," I called him that because we knew each other personally. "What's
20 the problem, Pecko?" And then he started beating about the bush. I
21 said, "There's nothing to discuss. Sign in the log-book if you want to
22 take the person with you and if you've come in an official capacity. If
23 not, come again tomorrow during office hours and now go back where you
24 came from. All right?"
25 And after 10 or 15 minutes he either called me up again or
1 possibly Savic told me right away that he had signed and taken Avdo Palic
2 with him. So that I suppose -- or, rather, it's a logical inference I
3 make that the person whose code-name was Atlantida was, in fact,
4 Avdo Palic. If he was taken away after the 10th of August, and it
5 probably is, because we saw the dates in that document.
6 Q. I want to show you a document. It's 65 ter 7330.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, this is one of these documents
8 that didn't have a 65 ter number. It bears directly on the witness's
9 current testimony as well.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I raise the matter that we have two different
11 versions of the same document just in front of us. That was P1267 and
12 65 ter 7231. The second one was better legible. Perhaps you may replace
13 the illegible by the better one, the 65 ter document, and then it will be
14 in evidence with a P number.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. That's a
16 good idea.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: The document that I want to show this witness
19 now, Mr. President, is directly related to his testimony concerning the
20 pick-up, as it were, of Colonel Palic by Captain Pecanac. I think it's
21 important for the Trial Chamber to receive it. I don't know whether or
22 not General Tolimir has an objection to it. I've alerted them,
23 obviously, to the potential use of this document, and so far I've heard
24 no objection with respect to it.
25 Q. Can you see the document in front of you, Colonel?
1 A. Yes, I can see it. Need I say anything about it?
2 Q. Not just yet, but it is entitled "Bijeljina garrison command,
3 garrison prison"; is that right?
4 A. Yes. If you hadn't said so yourself, I would have pointed that
5 out, because in my evidence yesterday, I said that the garrison command
6 also had a garrison detention centre which is in an organisation unit of
7 the corps command, and it doesn't have much to do with my professional
8 line of business.
9 Q. The document itself appears to be a receipt. It says "Receipt"
10 on it, and it says:
11 "On the exclusion of the detainees on the 5th of September 1995
12 at 0100 hours for the needs of the," as it's translated, "organisation
13 intelligence sector of the VRS Main Staff for the investigation."
14 And then it says:
15 "Palic Avdo, prisoner of war.
16 "Transferred following the order of Tomic Draga, officer on duty
17 of the Eastern Bosnia Corps intelligence organ."
18 Now, Tomic Draga would be one of your assistants, wouldn't he?
19 A. Yes, but let me tell you, this is no exclusion of any kind. This
20 form was printed by the people at the time, and they weren't very versed
21 in linguistical things. Actually, it's a receipt for prisoners handed
22 over from the prison. So it's a receipt that some person is no longer in
23 prison but has been taken away somewhere else. So the word "exclusion"
24 is not the best here. And as I said, this was made for the needs of the
25 sector of the security and intelligence of the Main Staff of the VRS.
1 This prison warden, Milan Savic, first talked to my duty officer,
2 because in my department there were duty shifts round the clock. So he
3 talked to the duty officer, and the duty officer checked whether Pecanac
4 had really come to fetch him. He called up the duty officer at the
5 Main Staff and told Savic, "Hand him over to Pecanac," or, "Let Pecanac
6 take him over and take him away, because he really is a man from the Main
7 Staff." But Milan Savic is elderly man, and that is why he was in that
8 position. I explained to you how we selected the police officers both
9 for Batkovic and for the military detention centre. He was very
10 responsible, and he knew me personally. So he wanted to make sure, and
11 therefore he asked me, he double-checked with me whether Pecanac was
12 really an authorised person so as to avoid making a mistake - Savic, I
13 mean - for which he could be held accountable. That's why I stepped in
14 and that's why I was summoned by the investigative magistrate of the BiH
15 court concerning this, and I gave the same answers that I'm giving now.
16 In principle, this could have taken place without any involvement
17 of mine, but the duty officer wanted to check whether that Pecanac was
18 really authorised to take over the prisoner, and the prison warden wanted
19 to verify whether he really could hand the prisoner over, and the problem
20 arose when Pecanac refused to sign. And then Savic chose to call me up
21 and ask for advice what he should do so that he wouldn't be left hanging
22 and be held accountable some day.
23 Q. I appreciate that answer, Colonel. Does this document, first of
24 all, record the events that you've just testified to about how
25 Captain Pecanac came to pick up or retrieve Avdo Palic from the
1 Vanikov Mlin prison? Is that what's essentially reflected in this
3 A. Yes. This document speaks about a correct procedure. Pecanac
4 turned up at the gate of the military detention centre and introduced
5 himself as an authorised official of the intelligence and security sector
6 of the Main Staff and that he had arrived to take over Mr. Avdo Palic for
7 subsequent treatment. Because the prison warden didn't know him
8 personally, he wanted to make sure, since this was a member of the
9 security service, called up the duty officer of the security department
10 whose chief I was.
11 Q. We've got that. I just want to know if it's talking about the
12 same event that you're talking about, that this document relates to the
13 that event, that's all.
14 A. What's talking about? I don't understand.
15 Q. Does this document with the signature of Pecanac and the
16 signature of Savic relate to the event that you're testifying about?
17 A. Yes, it does, but when I gave a statement to the investigative
18 magistrate of the BiH court, I was shown another type of document that
19 had a different title. It didn't -- it wasn't titled "Receipt".
20 Actually, the title was inadequate, as if some objects had been handed
21 over, not persons. That's the type of document I was shown in Bijeljina
22 concerning the retrieval of Mr. Palic from military detention.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Mr. President, I'd like to tender
24 this document before I forget to do so.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before it will be received, I would like to put a
1 question to the witness.
2 Sir, you said Pecanac refused to sign this document. Why did he
3 refuse to sign? Did he give you any reason for that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't. And after talking
5 to me, when the prison warden Milan Savic gave me Pecanac on the phone
6 and wanted me to explain to him, and it was after midnight, so they had
7 awoken me from deep sleep, and I asked Pecanac, "What's going on? Why
8 don't you sign?" And then he started, "Well, you know ... "
9 And then I got angry and said, "Okay, if you don't want to sign,
10 get out of here and come back some other time." And he said, "Okay,
11 okay." And that was the end of it. Why he initially didn't want to
12 sign, well, you should ask him. Eventually he did so.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. This document will be received as an
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7330 shall be
16 assigned Exhibit Number P2182. Thank you.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE:
18 Q. You referred a little bit earlier to Captain Pecanac as Pecko,
19 and I think you indicated that you knew him. Can you tell us, if you
20 know, what was his full name and what his position was in 1995?
21 A. His first --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: His full name.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certainly that his family name
24 is Pecanac. I'm over 90 per cent sure that his first name is either
25 Dragomir or Dragoljub. Those are very similar names. I think it's
1 Dragomir. Whether back in 1995 he was a captain or major, I'm not sure.
2 Even later than that, I was in the same position, we spoke and I saw him
3 with the rank of major, but whether at this time he was a captain or not,
4 I'm not sure, but anyway, it's the same person. I knew him from direct
5 contacts that we had. He passed through Bijeljina travelling to
6 Banja Luka. He needed fuel. Usually when somebody from the Main Staff
7 was travelling toward Banja Luka, they would carry some mail that they
8 would hand to us and then on the way back from Banja Luka toward the
9 Main Staff they would again call on us and then possibly leave the mail
10 that he had for us. So I did know him personally. But then I forgot
11 what you wanted to -- there was another part of your question relating to
13 MR. VANDERPUYE:
14 Q. The question was what was his position in 1995? He was in the
15 Main Staff. What position was he in?
16 A. He was with the Main Staff in the security and intelligence
17 administration. I am not sure, because he wasn't my subordinate, nor was
18 he superior to me along the chain of command. I believe that for a while
19 he was outside the security and intelligence administration -- or,
20 rather, he may have been on an intelligence assignment in some sub-centre
21 not far from Sarajevo, but that's only a hazy recollection.
22 Anyway, all the time he was a member of the security and
23 intelligence service. Which position he held at any point in time, I
24 cannot say for certain.
25 Q. And he was in a position in the security and intelligence
1 administration of the Main Staff when you spoke to him on what appears to
2 be the 5th of September of 1995?
3 A. I cannot answer this question with full certainty. Whether he
4 was a member of the security and intelligence administration or maybe
5 detached somewhere. But at any rate, he was a member of the intelligence
6 and security service, and he had the status of an authorised official for
7 these tasks.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said - sorry for interrupting you - he was a
9 member of the intelligence and security service. Which intelligence and
10 security service, that one of the Main Staff?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intelligence and security
12 service that -- yes, it did belong to the Main Staff, but in principle
13 the intelligence and security service of the VRS as a whole is a parallel
14 line --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put a clear question to you. On page 19, lines
16 4 and 5, you said he was with the Main Staff in the security and
17 intelligence administration. Later you said, "I cannot answer this
18 question with full certainty." Then you said the -- "He was a member of
19 the security and intelligence -- a member of the intelligence and
20 security service," but you didn't say which unit. That one of the Main
21 Staff or of another unit of the VRS?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I answered with some uncertainty,
23 because I did know people by name, but the exact designation of their
24 establishment position was something didn't know, except for
25 General Tolimir, that he was chief of the intelligence and security
1 sector; and that Naval Captain Beara was chief of the security
2 administration; and that Colonel Salapura was chief of the intelligence
3 administration of the intelligence and security sector. There were
4 others who came and went, among them Pecanac. What exactly his position
5 was, whether he was a member of the security department or --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, again and again you were asked about his
7 position in 1995. Was he a member of the Main Staff?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You gave this answer already. He was with the
10 Main Staff in the security and intelligence administration. That was
11 your answer, and why -- do you stand by that? Do you stand by that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. Colonel, you said you were called before a commission concerning
17 the disappearance or the fate of Avdo Palic. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes, I remember.
19 Q. Do you remember what you told them about Pecanac's position in
21 A. I remember roughly. Not every word though. I do remember the
22 essence of what I told them.
23 Q. Do you remember telling them that he was a security officer in
24 the Main Staff?
25 A. Well, that's what I was saying a minute ago, answering the
1 question of the Presiding Judge. That's the terminology. I don't know
2 what kind of interpretation you're receiving and how familiar you are
3 with the establishment structure and the chart of individual positions.
4 I don't remember whether he was a desk officer or a junior desk officer
5 or something else, but certainly he was on the payroll of the
6 intelligence and security sector, and in our army they -- these are often
7 called "security guys [Realtime transcript read in error "guards"]"
8 colloquially. He's a security guy.
9 Q. Security guy or security guard?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Guy, interpreter's remark, g-u-y.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's an unpopular phrase. It's
12 sort of slang, army slang, if you want. It's short for -- instead of
13 security officer, they just say security guy.
14 To cut things short, Pecanac was a security officer belonging to
15 the sector for security and intelligence of the Main Staff of the VRS.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Finally, we got it.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Colonel. I don't have any questions
18 for you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This concludes your examination-in-chief;
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: It does, Mr. President. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Tolimir, now you may commence your cross-examination. You
24 have the floor.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I wish
1 peace unto this house, and may this hearing be concluding in keeping with
2 God's will and not my own. I'd like to welcome the witness and wish him
3 a pleasant stay with us.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, during the past two days you were
6 frequently asked about some facts, but I'd rather move on to something
7 else which may you find -- you may find easier to answer. Let's look at
8 your statement, which is 1D734. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you indicated earlier that you
10 would tender the statement of Mr. Todorovic, but you didn't.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Ah, thank you for reminding me, and if it's not
12 too late, I would offer it into evidence at this time. Mr. President,
13 it's 1D733.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as an exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
16 Exhibit Number P2183. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document is now on the screen, P2183.
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. In your interview, you said that when the war broke out, you were
22 at the Command Staff Academy in Belgrade; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. It was in 1991, on the 20th of June. That is when the
24 break-up of Yugoslavia turned violent with the conflict breaking out in
25 Slovenia, and at that point in time I was at the military staff academy
1 in Belgrade.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Nothing begins on its own and of
3 itself. Can you tell us how the break-up of Yugoslavia began in
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have asked this question to
6 quite a lot of witnesses. I would like to know the purpose of putting
7 these questions to a witness like Mr. Todorovic. That was not part of
8 the examination-in-chief, and we have heard a lot of evidence about that,
9 but which purpose -- what purpose do you think such a question could have
10 in light of the indictment?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In the
12 interview that was just admitted, at page number 3, line 1, the witness
13 says that in 1991, when the break-up began, he said:
14 "In 1991, in July, when the break-up began, I did not return to
15 Slovenia, because on the 26th of June, Slovenia," et cetera, et cetera.
16 And this is where we stopped. I would like to ask that the
17 witness be allowed to finish, because later on he was constantly being
18 questioned as to whether he was assigned to the VRS, and in this
19 interview we can see why it was impossible for him to go back.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was just informed by the registrar that we have
21 two different statements or interviews in front of us. One is 1D733 that
22 was tendered by the Prosecution and received as P2183. Now we have on
23 the screen 1D74 -- 734. It's a different one. That was my mistake. I
24 was not aware of that. Just to clarify for the record.
25 Do we have page number 3 of the document on the screen? We
1 should have it, please.
2 Mr. Tolimir, I need the reference for the English text.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We need
4 1D733, page 3, line 1. 1D733, page 3, line 1. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I assume you are referring to the B/C/S version,
6 and now, please, the reference in English. And for the record, this is
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in English it's page
9 3, the last paragraph.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I provide an answer to the
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir to repeat his
13 question in relation to the text in front of us.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].
16 Q. The question is this: Mr. Todorovic, can you explain to the
17 Chamber why, after you completed the Command Staff Academy in Belgrade,
18 you could not and did not return to your position in Slovenia where you
19 had come from.
20 A. I recall the date as the 28th of June, 1991. That is two days
21 following the declaration of independence and the beginning of an armed
22 attack on the units and facilities of the JNA in Slovenia.
23 As a student of the General Staff school, I decided to go to
24 Maribor in my own vehicle to see what was going on with my family, my
25 wife and younger daughter, because my older daughter had already been in
1 Belgrade, at university.
2 I arrived at the Slovenian border whereupon the Slovenia police
3 refused to let me in because I had Belgrade registration plates on the
4 car. Knowing the area well, I turned back and took a side road through
5 the fields to get into Slovenia. Having served in Slovenia for some
6 time, I used side roads to eventually reach the apartment where my family
8 Within a short time, perhaps half an hour, since there was no
9 time to arrange or argue anything, I basically told or ordered my family
10 to pack the basic things they could fit in a bag and to leave for
11 Belgrade. We were supposed to leave Maribor for our hometown of
12 Bijeljina, actually, because both my wife and I hail from there.
13 It was my intention to get them out of the combat area or the
14 war-affected area and to accommodate them with my family or my wife's
15 family, not taking into account that eventually it would still over into
17 I didn't consider my employment or my position there, because as
18 an active-duty officer I was prepared to go where assigned by the needs
19 of service. Indeed, this is how things developed. My wife and daughter
20 packed, and we took a few bags, locked the apartment, and left one key
21 with our next-door neighbour.
22 We used the same side roads to go back and exit Slovenia. We
23 crossed Croatia in order to reach Bijeljina where I left my wife and
24 daughter and returned to the school in Belgrade the same day in the
1 Let me say this as well: While I was driving through Slovenia,
2 my car radio was on, and one could hear the news repeatedly of how the
3 situation was very dangerous and complex and that the population was
4 warned not to go outdoors. They were told to stay protected inside
5 should there be any shelling or bombing. They were also advised on the
6 most secure places within their own homes.
7 As I was approaching Maribor, the news was that bombarders
8 were -- bombers were up and that there was no one out in the street.
9 That propaganda was so strong, trying to draw a picture of some insidious
10 underhanded approach taken by the JNA which, in fact, did not exist.
11 En route to Maribor, I was accompanied by a schoolmate whose
12 family was also in Maribor. We reached Maribor together, and I dropped
13 him off in front of his building. We arranged to go back together.
14 However, he called me and said, "I'll return later, and you just go about
15 your own business." Unfortunately, he stayed for over a month. He
16 couldn't get out any more, because his movement was restricted. He
17 didn't even attend the closing part or ceremony of the course. It also
18 included another colleague from Vrhnika. There were also not present
19 because the security organs prevented their exit from Slovenia. They
20 arrived subsequently, but unfortunately could not attend the diploma
21 award ceremony.
22 That would be put in briefest possible terms.
23 Q. After Slovenia declared its independence on the 26th of June, two
24 days later there was an attack on the JNA in Slovenia; is that correct?
25 And can you tell us why the JNA was attacked in the former
1 Yugoslav Republic of Slovenia?
2 A. I don't think you understood me. I said two days later, on the
3 28th of June. I remember that day, because it is an Orthodox holiday,
4 and on that day I travelled to Slovenia to get my family, and I was
5 discussing the news I could hear in the car while travelling.
6 I have no direct knowledge of how things developed and what
7 barracks were attacked. I have information from my colleagues and
8 friends who served in Slovenia as I did. They talked about individuals,
9 but politics is a different matter.
10 Q. Can you tell us how the units you served with in Slovenia came
11 under attack, and did they remain there or were they driven out?
12 A. Most of the garrisons were blocked. Town and city authorities
13 were ordered to turn off electricity and water supply so as to render
14 their stay there impossible. They were trying to make them surrender to
15 the Slovenian Territorial Defence, which on the 26th of June became the
16 official arm -- army of the Republic of Yugoslavia -- of Slovenia.
17 Those sieges took quite some time, but the officers in the
18 garrisons tried to cope with it as best they could and find different
19 solutions to solve their problems. Finally, it was arranged with the
20 political authorities in Slovenia that those units north of Ljubljana
21 could leave Slovenia in an organised manner in order to move to some
22 other garrisons. This was done, indeed. I know, for example, of the
23 units from the Maribor general area where I served. I know where they
24 left specifically. I can't speak exactly of the other units.
25 My former brigade where I used to be in Slovenska Bistrica was
1 moved to Gornji Milanovac in Serbia, somewhere in western Serbia.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you continue this line of
3 questions, I would like to ask you again what is the purpose of putting
4 questions about the secession of Slovenia and the impact on the VRS or
5 the JNA at that time. We are -- in this case, we are not dealing with
6 the conflict which started in 1991 and then went through 1992. We are
7 discussing about 1995. In my view, it is a waste of time to put
8 questions to that, and we have now used quite a lot of time with, in my
9 view, irrelevant questions and answers.
10 Please focus on the facts Mr. Todorovic can provide you with as
11 knowledge. Please continue.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. At page
13 4 of this interview, in lines 7 and 8, the Prosecutor asked Mr. Todorovic
15 "We know you were in the JNA and that you were temporarily
16 assigned to Bosnia, to a position in the VRS."
17 One would conclude that Mr. Todorovic was sent to Bosnia directly
18 without every mentioning that his former country fell apart and that he
19 had to take his family out of the apartment they lived in. This all
20 takes on a completely different connotation unless cleared up. This
21 witness did not arrive in Bosnia because he was sent there by the VJ. He
22 came their voluntarily. That is why I wanted to put these questions,
23 because it is imputed here upon the Army of Yugoslavia that it was the VJ
24 who sent officers to serve in Bosnia.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where do I find this relevant part in the English
1 version? Is it on the screen?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it's on the
3 screen, line 18 and 19. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. If you put questions to that. That
5 was also raised in examination-in-chief, but the kind of questions was
6 quite different. Please continue.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Todorovic, tell the Trial Chamber, had there not been the war
10 in Slovenia, would you have returned to your service in Maribor from
11 where you were sent to your training at the Command Staff Academy? Thank
13 A. Yes, I certainly would have returned. I'm not sure whether it --
14 I spoke about that to the Prosecutor or Mr. Tomasz who examined me in
15 February, but even now, after all this time, if I could meet the
16 administrative criteria, one of which is citizenship, I would prefer
17 returning to Slovenia to live there, because the best years of my life,
18 from when I was 19 till the age of 42, I spent in Slovenia.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. I understand that you feel the need to
20 speak about it, but my time is limited, and I have to ask all the
21 questions I want to ask within a given time.
22 What happened to the officers who served with you or were --
23 attended the same training and they were Slovenians? Were they able to
24 remain members of the units of the Army of Yugoslavia?
25 A. Most of us, and I'm speaking about my generation back in 1991,
1 were sent where we wanted to go. There was no one Slovenian in my class.
2 There were some Croats and Macedonians, some Albanians, Bosnians, and
3 Serbs from Serbia, but most people were sent to serve in their own
4 republic or -- I would have to recall it all. Maybe if somebody was
5 married to a woman from Belgrade who had an appointment there, then
6 probably they would be appointed to serve in Belgrade because they had a
7 place to live even though he was not a Serb.
8 Q. Please give us a short answer. Since you served in the Army of
9 Yugoslavia during the war in Slovenia and Croatia and later, did
10 Slovenian officers of the JNA stay in the garrisons in Serbia where they
11 served even after the war?
12 A. Yes, most of them did. In the security administration, there was
13 a lieutenant-colonel who was Slovenian, later was promoted to the rank of
14 colonel, and he retired from the Army of Yugoslavia. Well, now it's the
15 Army Of Serbia. But some of them went to their own country.
16 Q. Thank you. That was going to be my following question. So those
17 who wanted to stay, were able to stay, and those who wanted to leave,
18 were able to leave?
19 A. Yes. That's what I said already.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether officers from
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina such as you because you were from Bijeljina were able
22 to go to Bosnia-Herzegovina after the break-up of Yugoslavia and the
23 secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia? Thank you?
24 A. What period are you referring to, after 1995 or right after the
25 beginning of the break-up of Yugoslavia?
1 Q. Thank you. Did the officers who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 after the secession of that republic from Yugoslavia, were they able to
3 go to their own republic? Thank you.
4 A. Yes, they were able to go, and they were not a priori obliged to
5 go there. Not everybody who hailed from there was automatically sent
6 there. So there were two elements that were required: The will of the
7 person in question and the needs of the service.
8 I worked in the security administration of the VJ and one officer
9 hailed from Foca. He never went there, not even to visit his family
10 during that period, let alone to serve there. So it was not mandatory.
11 Attempts -- efforts were made to reconcile the needs of the service and
12 the origin of the person.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first, you should pause between
15 question and answer as you're using the same language. It's impossible
16 for the interpreters to follow.
17 The second is we need the first break now. We adjourn and resume
18 at 11.00, and then you may continue your questioning.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please continue, and try to
22 use your time in the most sufficient way, and try not to deal with
23 matters which are irrelevant for this case. Please continue.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
25 apologise, but very different things have been established with regard to
1 adjudicated facts that we do not acknowledge. Here we have before us an
2 officer who has first-hand experience with this break-up. Not only him
3 but his family too. And I do not accept the adjudicated facts about the
4 break-up of the former Yugoslavia.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Todorovic, when I ask you a question, please watch the screen
7 in front of you, and once the cursor stops moving, then start your
8 answer, and please answer briefly. If possible, give a yes or no answer,
9 because otherwise I won't be able to ask all my questions.
10 Here's my following question: Did the Muslim personnel in the
11 JNA who did not accept the secession of Slovenia, Croatia, and
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they able to remain in their officers' position
13 in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia even after the secession of the
14 respective republics of Yugoslavia? Thank you?
15 A. Yes, they were able to, and I know some examples.
16 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, do you know when the Muslim part, the
17 so-called Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, separated itself from the
18 Republika Srpska and when did Bosnia-Herzegovina break up?
19 A. I'm not sure about the date. I know that the 9th of January is
20 mentioned as the day of statehood in Republika Srpska. I cannot speak
21 about other dates.
22 Q. Thank you. And do you know what the -- what the day of statehood
23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina is and when Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised as a
24 country by certain countries, members of the European Union? Thank you.
25 A. I know that two dates are observed, the 29th of November. That
1 is the -- or, rather, the 26th of November. That's the old day of
2 statehood. On that day the second session of AVNOJ took place. And then
3 there's another date, the 2nd of March or April. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard that Bosnia-Herzegovina was
5 recognised by some EU members and NATO members on the 6th of April, as
6 you said?
7 A. Well, I didn't really say the 6th of April, but I did say it was
8 some date in March or April.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina,
10 and Croatia were rewarded for seceding from Yugoslavia by their
11 international recognition?
12 A. Yes, we could put it that way.
13 Q. Thank you. On page 4, lines 8 and 9, the Prosecutor asked you
14 whether you were sent to -- deployed to Bosnia to perform duty in VRS.
15 So now tell me, the officers who hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they
16 have a status before the break-up in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
17 and the Army of Yugoslavia?
18 A. Yes, they did.
19 Q. Thank you. Did every --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Todorovic, please pause
21 between question and answer and the next question.
22 Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Todorovic, please tell us, did every member of the former
1 SFRY provide money for their personnel in the federal structures, and
2 were those funds used for paying out salaries, social contributions, et
3 cetera, for members of the JNA?
4 A. I don't quite understand. Are you referring to the period until
5 the secession or after?
6 Q. Thank you. Until the secession. Thank you.
7 A. Until the secession there were no financial funds broken down by
8 the republics for the needs of the Yugoslav People's Army. There was a
9 federal level at which all this funding was taken care of, including
10 salaries, housing, et cetera.
11 Q. Thank you. Please tell us if all republics, members of
12 Yugoslavia, were obliged to contribute money from their budgets to the
13 federal budget. Thank you.
14 A. I'm not an economist, so I cannot provide a precise answer, but
15 part of the federal budget was fed from the republican budgets.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the Republika Srpska - I'm referring
17 to the republic, not the army - after the beginning of combat activities
18 reached an agreement with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia that it was
19 supposed to contribute to the budget of Yugoslavia, whereas Yugoslavia
20 would pay out the salaries of the officers serving in the RS.
21 A. I suppose that there was such an agreement, because all members
22 who were temporarily deployed to the VRS received their salaries and
23 other benefits from the VJ.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know, Mr. Todorovic, that based on this
25 agreement between the RS and the FRY, that is Serbia, the VRS reached an
1 agreement with the JNA to accommodate five to six officers who were
2 supposed to be in charge of personnel affairs concerning its members who
3 took part in the war? Thank you.
4 A. Yes, I do. This small part of the personnel was called the
5 30th Personnel Centre. There was the 30th and there was the 40th. As
6 far as I know, the 30th was in charge for the VRS, whereas the 40th was
7 in charge of the Army of the Republic of the Serb Krajina.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please answer this question if you
12 know: Did the funds of the health insurance or the medical insurance
13 that were paid in for army members even before the war were acquired
14 rights of members of the JNA and members of their family who were
15 entitled to receive medical treatment in medical facilities of the
16 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
17 A. Yes, I know about that, and that was indeed made use of. Even
18 now retired members of the former JNA who are in the territory of the RS
19 can receive medical treatment in medical facilities of the Republic of
20 Serbia based on their acquired rights and their years of service, which
21 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia acknowledged as the accessory of the
22 former SFRY, and so did the Republic of Serbia later.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you know that the agreements reached between the
24 former Yugoslav republics, including those that seceded, acknowledge the
25 acquired rights of former -- the acquired rights of people who worked in
1 Yugoslavia, including --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the end of his
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since you are putting your questions in a very
5 fast manner, the interpreters didn't get and catch the last part of your
6 question. Please repeat it and slow down a bit.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Todorovic, do you know that after the secession, even the
10 former Yugoslav republics through their agreement on secession
11 represented the obligation to provide social rights and social welfare to
12 all citizens who could transfer these rights to the republic where they
13 now live? Thank you.
14 A. Yes, I know about this. And it has functioned for awhile with
15 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and toward the end of last year, an
16 international agreement was signed with Slovenia, and the disbursement of
17 pensions and other benefits to inhabitants of Serbia began recently,
18 those who acquired some rights based on living in those republics.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please tell us, did the Federal
20 Republic of Yugoslavia or Serbia ever deny their acquired rights to any
21 citizen who lived in former Yugoslavia, or did they continue to pay
22 salaries to them and housing, et cetera, irrespective of who -- which
23 army they joined? Thank you.
24 A. Yes, I know that too. Civilians were paid continuously, and
25 members of the former JNA received their salaries and other benefits up
1 to the moment that they filed an application to -- for termination of
2 service in the JNA, but tenancy rights were not denied them, nor the
3 rights that they had with regard to any real estate in Serbia.
4 I know some examples of swapping apartments between members of
5 the former JNA who lived in Slovenia. I know more about Slovenia,
6 because I lived there for quite a while and worked there. So they
7 swapped apartments, and the state accepted that and it was all legal.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please tell us, do you know whether
9 the apartments of army members in the secessionist republics of Slovenia,
10 Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina were taken away by force and was that
11 done in the same way in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia too? Thank
13 A. I can use my own example. My apartment in Maribor was assigned
14 to a member of the army of Slovenia or some other Slovenian citizen.
15 However, when I retired, based on all the rights acquired, I was given an
16 apartment in Belgrade. I know of a number of colleagues who could not
17 exercise their right to have those apartments returned to them, be it for
18 the purpose of residing in it or exchanging it for another, and this
19 applied to all the former republics, that is to say, the three you
20 mentioned, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia. I don't have much information
21 about Macedonia. I don't know anything about the interstate agreements.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let's look at page 5 of your
23 statement, lines 1 through 8.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 6 in the English.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I will refer you to the right lines, and you can explain. You
3 say that you worked in Belgrade in the security administration, and you
4 and Mr. Lugonja were there as members of the VRS, given the fact that you
5 both hailed from Bosnia and Herzegovina before you joined the
6 East Bosnia Corps. Can you explain this period to the Chamber and tell
7 them of the existence of that one office which took care of VRS personnel
8 who happened to be in Serbia.
9 A. I knew Marko Lugonja from the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina. We were
10 at the same level, but he was with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Once he
11 concluded his education in Belgrade, in the operations school, he was
12 assigned to the security administration of the army of the FRY where I
13 happened to be, having returned from the war in Republika Srpska. We
14 were next-door colleagues, and in 1998, based on the same principle that
15 was applied in 1993, when I was asked by General Tolimir to respond to
16 their call and take part temporarily in the formation of the VRS,
17 General Lugonja asked me to accompany him to the VRS, because he was to
18 be appointed the chief of security of the Main Staff of the VRS in
19 peacetime, since it was 1998. I gave it some thought, and I accepted for
20 the same reasons I did in 1993. Therefore I did respond and was
21 temporarily assigned to the VRS.
22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Todorovic, since you returned to the VRS after
23 the war, we need to look at page 4 of your interview, lines 21 to 24. In
24 those lines, if you can see then --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please give us the reference in the English text.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 6 in the English.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which line?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The top of the page.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Todorovic, to save time, I will simply recount what you
6 stated, and then I will have a question for you.
7 Here you describe that on the 16th of November, 1993, until
8 February 1997, you were chief of the intelligence and security
9 administration, and then between 1998 and 2002, you were at the position
10 specified, whereupon you were retired. You mentioned how you worked in
11 the Weapons Reduction Commission, and you how you attended courses in
12 Oberammergau in Germany and you also were present in Vienna when the
13 agreement was implemented. Let's look at 65 ter 05415 [as interpreted]
14 and tell us whether it was based on this agreement that you exercised
15 your duties as control -- weapons inspector as part of the commission for
16 weapon control.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the number of
19 the document.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the number
21 of the document.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 05714. It is on the screen.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We see a document of the Main Staff, the date is the 31st of
25 March and it's titled "Report on Negotiations and the Agreement of
1 Regional Stabilisation". It mentions that between the 18th and 29th of
2 March there were negotiations in Vienna when this agreement was reached.
3 In seven items specified below, among others we see in item 1 "Agreement
4 on subregional arms control".
5 Was it based on this agreement reached in Vienna that you were
6 assigned to the commission for reduction and arms control?
7 A. Yes. It was based on this agreement that I was sent to
8 Oberammergau to attend short -- a short training. I wanted to say that
9 in 1998, the reduction process had basically been completed, and the
10 commissions of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Serbia
11 jointly toured all military locations in those locations, controlling the
12 declared as opposed to factual situation with the armaments and whether
13 the signatories abided by the provisions of the agreement.
14 Q. Thank you. Could we please have page 2 in e-court so that we
15 could see what the limits were to which you had to reduce the weapons in
16 the respective republics. We see items (a) to (e) with the respective
17 entities and the minimum of heavy weaponry retained after reduction.
18 Look at page 2.
19 Was it your job to have the number of weapons in the respective
20 entities brought down to the level specified?
21 A. Yes. That was the task of the commission. In 1998, when I
22 appeared in the VRS for the second time, our primary task was to control
23 the whereabouts of those weapons and whether those locations had been
24 declared and whether there were any deviations or violations of the
25 agreement. By 1998, the figures were indeed brought down to these
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let's look at the last page of the
3 document so as to see the signature block. It was signed by a
4 representative of the RS, and at that time it was
5 Major-General Zdravko Tolimir, assistant commander.
6 This document that Mr. Todorovic abided by in the course of his
7 work is something that I seek to tender.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I don't quite understand the purpose
9 of tendering this document from 1996, if I'm not mistaken. Could you
10 please explain that. If I'm not mistaken, this is relating to a time
11 period after the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I quoted
13 from page 4 of the interview before referring to this document. It was
14 lines 21 through 30 where the witness addressed this topic when
15 discussing it with the investigators. This was the basis for the
16 agreement to be admitted just so that we could understand what mechanisms
17 were used to reduce the number of weapons. This is part of the general
18 activities of the accused.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be received as an exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5714 shall be
22 assigned Exhibit Number D219. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Let us
24 look at page 6 of the interview, lines 30 to 34 in the Serbian. It is
25 P2183. In the English version, it's the next page, page 7. Apologies.
1 In English, it is page 8.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Todorovic, yesterday in examination-in-chief, you were asked
4 by Mr. Vanderpuye how you arrived in Yugoslavia, and you discussed how I
5 came to see General Dimitrijevic when we met for the first time.
6 What you said about 1993, does it have to do with the encounter
7 we had at the security administration of the VJ?
8 A. Yes, it does. I don't know whether it was in May or June, but
9 around mid-1993.
10 Q. Thank you. Was there any basis in the laws and agreements
11 between the FRY and the RS on which I could look for personnel that was
12 in the FRY to try and ask them to join the RS army voluntarily?
13 A. Yes. I believe we touched upon that in a previous question. I
14 said that voluntariness was applied, and the other criterion was the
15 needs of the service, and I did specify that some colleagues of mine
16 refused for their own personal reasons. I said that a colleague from
17 Foca never came back to Republika Srpska, not even to visit his family,
18 let alone to serve there.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us go to page 10, lines 11 through 16. I will
20 quote once we see them. It's page 11 in the English, the last paragraph.
21 Here you say that the other professional officers in your
22 department, such as Dragan Tomic and those who were not from the reserve
23 staff, were on the payroll of the VJ. Was it only through the payroll
24 and accountancy done by the 30th Personnel Centre that they received
25 their salaries from the RS funds, or did they receive their salary
1 directly from the VJ?
2 A. I specified that the only member of the security department
3 headed by me from the reserve force was Dragan Tomic. He was a reserve
4 officer of the VRS, and his name was not on any payroll lists of the Army
5 of Yugoslavia.
6 The other subordinates of mine in the intelligence and security
7 department of the East Bosnia Corps were active-duty members of the Army
8 of Yugoslavia or of the VRS, and their names can be found on all payroll
9 lists that existed in the 30th Personnel Centre of the VJ.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. At page 10, starting with line 25, and
11 then at page 11, you mention Mr. Mitrovic. You also do that on page 12.
12 Actually, it's page 12 in the English. You mentioned Ljubo Mitrovic as
13 the president of the exchange commission. Can you tell us whether
14 Ljubo Mitrovic was subordinated to you, or did you only provide advice
15 and guidelines to him since you were in personal contact and you knew him
16 from earlier on when he served with the Semberija Brigade.
17 A. I only provided guidelines, and I clarified issues that weren't
18 necessarily clear to him. He was not my subordinate directly. In the
19 part you referred to, I was trying to explain that he asked to be in the
20 security and intelligence department of the East Bosnia Corps on paper so
21 that no one could transfer him for various reasons. That is why
22 Mr. Mitrovic, on paper, had his office seat in the intelligence and
23 security department of the East Bosnia Corps. His other function was --
24 or, actually, the president of the exchange commission was subordinated
25 to the commander of the East Bosnia Corps.
1 I explain in the interview that he had a separate office outside
2 the corps command, at the other end of town. He had his own secretary
3 and phone line and the fax machine. He had a separate vehicle and could
4 work autonomously and independently when exercising his duties as the
5 president of the exchange commission.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time I would like to put a
7 question to clarify. You said, sir, on page 43, lines 12 through 15, and
8 I quote:
9 "The other subordinates of mine in the intelligence and security
10 department of the East Bosnia Corps were active-duty members of the Army
11 of Yugoslavia or the VRS."
12 Can you tell me to which time period you are referring when you
13 give this information. Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the wartime
15 period. In other words, 1993 through 1997. And then in 1998 through
16 2000, it was a bit different. It was a combination of factors.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Todorovic, for the transcript, just
21 tell us loud and clear, without any explanations, who was Ljubo Mitrovic
22 subordinated to? Thank you.
23 A. To the East Bosnia Corps commander.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let us now take a look at page 12
25 where on lines 1 through 7, and that will be page 13 in the English, you
1 talk about reconnaissance units, and you mention proposals that you
2 submitted to the commander in relation to those units.
3 I will read out from line 3 of your statement, and I quote:
4 "All units, including the military police, had reconnaissance
5 units that were subordinated to the commander -- or, rather, to the Chief
6 of Staff, and in the case of the police and their reconnaissance units, I
7 propose their use in the most effective way. The commander usually
8 accepted and agreed to my proposals, but he did not have to."
9 Bearing this in mind, for the needs of the transcript could you
10 please tell us whether military police units and the reconnaissance units
11 that you provided professional guidance to, were they under your command
12 or the under the commands of their officers.
13 A. Well, I think it's very clear from what I said here that their
14 commander was the corps commander and I, as a professional, and along the
15 professional chain of command actually proposed their employment in the
16 most effective manner.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, can we please take a look now at P1297 in
18 e-court, and let us see what the legal provisions are for the use of
19 those. Thank you. Thank you.
20 We see before us the service regulations for the military police.
21 Let us now take a look at page 6 of this document, paragraph 2. Thank
22 you. Could we please just move the text a bit so that the witness can
23 see it. Thank you.
24 We see what this -- these service regulations actually provide
25 for, and I will read this out for you. Now we see it in the English
1 version as well.
2 The second half of the first paragraph says that the regulations
3 are based on the provisions of the federal laws and other federal
4 regulations. My question for you is this: In units of the VRS during
5 the war, did you apply these rules from the Army of Yugoslavia in keeping
6 with the regulations that were in force at the time?
7 A. Well, yes. We did apply the rules of service of the Yugoslav
8 Army, including the one that we have before us, and it frequently
9 occurred that in a document we would make a reference to that. We would
10 say based on the rules of service of the military police, for instance,
11 of the Yugoslav Army taken over by the VRS. So we would make that the
12 reference in order to actually point to the regulation or rule that was
13 referred to there. This had to do with various services, including the
14 security organ, and it was -- they were used up until the end of the war,
15 in fact.
16 Q. Thank you. In view of what you've just said, would you look at
17 paragraph 2 here, and I'd like to ask you this: Did these regulations
18 provide a basis for the command and control of the military police within
19 the VRS?
20 A. Well, yes. That's what I said in reply to your previous question
22 Q. Thank you. Now please take a look at the first sentence of
23 paragraph 3, and I will read it out.
24 "The regulations are intended for the following: Members of the
25 armed police for their unified approach when executing the tasks from
1 their jurisdiction."
2 Now, my question is this: As an organ who commanded the military
3 police, would you please tell me this reference here to a unified
4 approach, what exactly does that mean? Does that mean that a military
5 policeman in Belgrade, in Banja Luka, in Drvar or anywhere would have to
6 abide by it.
7 A. Well, exactly as you stated there, these regulations were in fact
8 drafted in order for a unified approach to be applied and not every
9 individual taking his own decisions as they please.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have a problem with the transcript because you
12 were overlapping again. I can't see where the answer started. Now it's
13 corrected. Thank you.
14 Mr. Tolimir, you quoted from this document but in a very
15 different way of that part we see in the English translation. Perhaps it
16 is a translation issue, but if you read a text into the transcript, it
17 should be really a serious quotation. I see a different part in the --
18 oh, yes, I see. You were reading from paragraph 3. I heard from
19 paragraph 2. Thank you very much. Now I see it. Please carry on.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, would you please explain here whether in this
23 unified approach that was something that was taught in schools, written
24 down in laws, was the fundamental underlying principle that the military
25 police should be commanded by the commander and not anyone else and that
1 the military police did not have to have a commander, komandir, who would
2 actually tell them what to do at every single step, because they had
3 actually learned that principle during their schooling?
4 A. Yes. In the course of their training, the training of the
5 military police; and this included military police, plain military police
6 as well as their commanders, they had to learn their duties and
7 obligations and rights, including the right to take into custody, apply
8 force if necessary, ask for IDs, and so on. So all those rights that
9 fall within the jurisdiction of the military police. They learned that
10 during their training.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, based on your experience, and you've told us
12 that you served in Slovenia, in Serbia, in Bijeljina, and so on, would a
13 military policeman have to apply exactly the same approach and take the
14 same action in any of those places, as far as your experience is
15 concerned, if, for instance, he approached a military person, a soldier,
16 and asked for his ID?
17 A. Exactly. They would have to abide by the same rules and follow
18 exactly the same procedure when asking for IDs, and there was no limit on
19 which rank they could actually intercept, stop, and ask for their IDs.
20 In other words, a staff sergeant could ask for an ID from -- of a major,
21 and this applied anywhere, whether Belgrade or Skopje or anywhere in the
22 former Yugoslavia.
23 Q. Thank you. Can we now please show the witness page 7. I'd like
24 him to take a look at it and then I will have a question for the witness.
25 And that will be chapter 1. Perhaps you already have it there. "General
1 provisions." Can we show it in English, please? Yes. Now we have it in
2 the English version.
3 I will only read out the first sentence from paragraph 1. I
5 "The military police are composed of specially trained and
6 equipped unites of the armed forces which perform certain duties, as
7 follows: Security for the needs -- for the needs of the armed forces,
8 protection of people and property, safety and military traffic,
9 maintenance of soldierly order and discipline and uncovering crimes and
10 perpetrators," and so on.
11 Now, Mr. Todorovic, could you please tell the Chamber did every
12 member of the military police undergo special training in order to be
13 able to carry out the duties as described here?
14 A. Yes. Commanding officers, who were assigned to military police
15 units after undergoing general training, more often than not, that would
16 be infantry or mechanised training. They would then be sent to Pancevo
17 to the special military security school where staff were trained for the
18 needs of the military police, whereas soldiers who were members of the
19 military police were -- underwent training within the unit where they
20 were assigned up until the moment when they were reassigned to a unit
21 where they would serve, where they would undergo specialised training
22 depending on what kind of tasks they had to deal with in that unit.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Yesterday in the course of the
24 examination-in-chief you were asked whether you had commanded military
25 police who provided -- who guarded the prisoners in Batkovic. Now, let
1 us take a look at page 9 of this document before us, at paragraph 12, and
2 see what we have there. That's chapter 2, and it says "Command and
3 control of the military police." And that will be on page 10 in the
4 English version. Now we have it in English as well. And we see that it
5 says as follows:
6 "The officer in charge of the military unit and institution
7 within whose establishment the military police unit is placed or to which
8 it is attached commands and controls the military police."
9 Now, pursuant to this, would you please tell me who it was who
10 commanded, who was the commander of the military police at the collection
11 centre in Batkovic and within whose establishment were they?
12 A. At the military collection centre in Batkovic, as I explained
13 yesterday, there were some 20 to 25 military police - in other words, a
14 Military Police Platoon - and they were part of the military police
15 battalion of the East Bosnia Corps. They were resubordinated -- or,
16 rather, attached to the collection centre, and the commanding officer of
17 that platoon was in daily communication to discuss any difficulties or
18 problems they were facing with the warden of the collection centre.
19 However, if he needed clothes, uniforms, equipment, and so on, or if he
20 needed to replace personnel, then he would address these issues to his
21 direct commander, which was the battalion commander, the military police
22 battalion commander. In other words, that platoon was temporarily
23 assigned to the collection centre in order to carry out the guard duties
24 there, and it was taken from under the battalion command.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Would you tell the Trial Chamber who
1 was the commanding officer of the military police battalion, and in
2 what -- to what unit did he or they belong?
3 A. The military police battalion was under the command of the
4 commander of the military police, Captain Vulin, later Major Vulin, and
5 it was -- it had under it the structure of the battalion, and his
6 commander was the commander of the East Bosnia Corps,
7 General Simic Novica.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the first name.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the name of this man,
12 General Simic. What was his first name?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Novica Simic.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Todorovic, let us look at item 13, what it says about the
19 powers of the security organ with regard to the military police in
20 general. It says the military police is controlled along professional
21 lines by the commander of the unit or facility to which the military
22 police unit belongs or to which it is attached.
23 Here's my question to you. Did you have the right to exert
24 professional control over the military police unit of the
25 East Bosnia Corps given your position in the security service?
1 A. It was both my right and my duty.
2 Q. Thank you. Please explain the Trial Chamber how you went about
3 it. Thank you.
4 A. I conducted frequent inspection and audits. If I observed some
5 shortcomings in the activities of the military police, I would point that
6 out to the commander, and I would set deadlines and define tasks for the
7 rectification of those shortcomings, and I would also acquaint the corps
8 commander for him to be up-to-date, and in accordance -- or depending on
9 need, I would propose measures for him to take. For example,
10 disciplinary measures or even the opposite; if somebody did a very good
11 job, that person should be -- should receive some incentives.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic, now please take a look at Article 2,
13 paragraph 2, quote for the transcript:
14 "In carrying out tasks from the remit of the military police,
15 based on need and the decision of the military officer in charge, the
16 following can -- can engage in co-ordinated action with the military
17 police," and so on.
18 Here's my question: Did you have any powers with regard to units
19 that are deployed to join other units, to act in co-ordinated action with
20 them, or was it somebody else? Thank you.
21 A. You were referring to Article 2 in your question, but I can't see
22 any such article here on the screen.
23 Q. Thank you, Todorovic. I misquoted. I quoted from item 1, but we
24 see Chapter II. I'm going to quote from paragraph 3, but do answer my
25 question that I asked about item 2 of general provisions?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please display the English
2 version too. It's on page 8 in English.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Now you can see paragraph 2 of item 2. So that military police
5 units can be part of co-ordinated action. So who has authority over them
6 in such a case?
7 A. It's the commander who takes the decision on co-ordinated action
8 when he decides about combat activities, be it defence, attack or any
9 other activity. In that case, he determines who has the main role. If
10 the military police unit acts in co-ordination with another unit, then
11 that other unit would mostly probably be a reconnaissance unit because
12 they have trained in a very similar manner. So the attached part that
13 acts in co-ordination must be instructed or trained, and its training
14 will be conducted by the commander of the military police unit because he
15 is basically responsible for that task. Of course if he needs
16 professional assistance, he will contact the chief of the security organ
17 so that he may contribute to that training.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. I asked you this because yesterday you
19 were asked whether the military police unit in Zvornik took part in
20 combat as it was presented by Mr. Pandurevic in his report of 16 July
21 1995. Please tell us if you remember that. Did the military police
22 unit, once it arrived in the zone of responsibility of the
23 Zvornik Brigade was under the authority of the commander of the
24 Zvornik Brigade?
25 A. No, because the military police unit, which was part of the
1 military police battalion that was deployed to Zvornik was only sent
2 there to carry out a specific task, namely to accept some of the members
3 of the BH Army taken prisoner and to conduct them to the Batkovic
4 collection centre. That's a task he received from the battalion
5 commander, and I only relayed it to him.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now the transcript stopped. Please now put the
7 next question.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Do explain the following: If it had
10 been the way Pandurevic stated in his report, if they had fought as a
11 unit of the Zvornik Brigade, who would have had authority over them?
12 A. If there had been a need to use the military police unit in such
13 a way, I mean from the East Bosnia Corps, in principle, the Main Staff
14 through you or the operative organ should have issued an order to the
15 effect that the command of the East Bosnia Corps should deploy a unit to
16 act in co-ordination with part of the military police to carry out the
17 combat mission given to the commander of the Zvornik Brigade. Since that
18 was not the case, that is, the commander of the battalion of the
19 East Bosnia Corps did not receive such a task, he was not to take part in
20 the performance of any combat mission, and I believe he wasn't.
21 In that scenario, when the commander of the military police from
22 the East Bosnia Corps reported to the Zvornik Brigade that he had arrived
23 with so-and-so many men, equipment and the like, and placing himself
24 under that commander's command for a certain period, he should have
25 received a specific task from that commander, and the commander of the
1 Zvornik Brigade should have made sure that that unit was indeed capable
2 of carrying out that mission.
3 I hope I've been able to answer your question as it was intended.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic, you did, but state clearly for the
5 transcript. If they had fought as part of the Zvornik Brigade as it was
6 reported, would the one in charge of combat activities in the zone of
7 responsibility of the brigade have been responsible for that or the
8 command of the East Bosnia Corps?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please start over with his
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you started too early. We don't have it on
12 the record. Please repeat your answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not so used to this. I
15 Of course, everything that's happening in the zone of
16 responsibility of a unit, here specifically the Zvornik Brigade, is in
17 the responsibility of the commander of the Zvornik Brigade, and if he
18 were to decide to use these military police forces, as has been stated,
19 he should have given them a specific task and after that received a
20 report of what has been done. After that, he could thank them and send
21 them back to their original unit. So it's the commander of the
22 Zvornik Brigade who is responsible for everything in the zone of
23 responsibility of that brigade and not the commander of the military
24 police battalion or the commander of the East Bosnia Corps.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let us take another look at page 9,
1 command and control of the military police, and answer only the questions
2 that I'm about to ask about paragraph 2 of item 13. You can see that
3 second paragraph. Here's my question: Do officers of the security organ
4 with regard to the military police have the same authority as the
5 officers of the arms and services with regard to those arms and services,
6 that is, only an advisory authority?
7 A. Well, I can provide an extensive answer. The chief of artillery
8 proposes how the artillery should be used and the commander accepts or
9 refuses, and the same goes for the commander of the military police, et
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I see that we have
13 the document in e-court. I think it would be helpful to read into the
14 record what it says specifically, because I don't see in the English
15 translation of the document in the second paragraph under 13 the word
16 "advisory" anywhere. So maybe either the witness can explain it, or we
17 can have that read into the -- into the record so that it's clear what
18 he's responding to.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Todorovic, would you please read the second
20 paragraph of item 13 into the record. Then we will receive the correct
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "When controlling a military police
23 unit, the officer in charge of the security organ from paragraph 1 of
24 this item has the same rights and duties as the officers of the arms and
25 services of military units and institutions in controlling the units of
1 the arms and services."
2 And the third paragraph elaborates that more specifically. Since
3 the military police also has a traffic police component, which is a
4 platoon or a company where it is the assistant commander for traffic who
5 gets involved, which means that I as the security organ propose how the
6 general component of the military police unit is to be used whereas the
7 use of the traffic police component is something where the chief or,
8 rather, the assistant for traffic police gets involved.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I think that was enough.
10 Mr. Tolimir should continue with his questioning.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Tell us, Mr. Todorovic, with regard to the military police unit,
14 does the chief of the traffic service have the same rights as you with
15 regard to --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the latter part
17 of his question.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the last
19 part of the question, and I would like to ask the witness to wait until
20 the transcript stops. It's very difficult, but as you are using the same
21 language, it's absolutely necessary to pause.
22 Mr. Tolimir, please repeat your question.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Does, with regard to the traffic component of the military
1 police, the chief of the traffic police have the same rights as the
2 organ, security organ, of the corps command? Thank you.
3 A. Yes, which means that the traffic organ and the corps command,
4 and in any other command, exercises professional control as well as
5 training, equipping of that part of the military police whose duty it is
6 to control traffic. He proposes its use during the performance of
7 certain tasks, the same way as I do.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Does the same principle that the
9 security organ only has the right to give professional direction, does
10 this -- is this regulated in the rules of service of the security organs?
11 A. Yes. One of the tasks, I believe it's the fourth or the fifth
12 task in the rules of service of the security organs, is the control of
13 the military police activities.
14 Q. Thank you. Let's see D203, page 10 in Serbian and page 11 in
15 English. We're interested in item 23 of the rules of service of the
16 security organs in the armed forces, and this provision regulates the
17 same matter of -- as the rules of the military police do. Thank you. We
18 can see item 23 in both Serbian and English. It's item 23 of the rules
19 of service of the security organs in the armed forces.
20 I quote:
21 "An officer of a security organ of a command unit, institution,
22 or staff of the armed forces provides specialist management for a
23 military police unit. He recommends the use of the military police unit
24 to the senior officer of the command, unit, institution or staff, and he
25 is responsible to him for the state of the activity of the unit."
1 Now I'll continue to read the second paragraph:
2 "In controlling the military police unit, the security organ
3 officer under paragraph 1 of this item has the same rights and duties as
4 officers of the arms and services of commands, units, institutions and
5 staffs of the armed forces in controlling units of the arms and services
6 of those commands, units, institutions or staffs."
7 My question based on this is does the security organ have the
8 right to command military police units, or does it only have the right to
9 control them?
10 A. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just wait a moment. No problem. Just wait a
12 moment, and I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir to repeat the number of this
13 document so that we have it clear on the record.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is D203. The title
15 is rules of service of --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to have the document number. Now,
17 please, Mr. Todorovic, provide us with your answer.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 23 is identical to the item we
19 saw a moment ago in the rules of service of the military police. There
20 shouldn't be any difference. The officer in charge of the security organ
21 manages, supervises and controls, whereas command lies with the
22 commander. Commands are issued by commanders, and chiefs and assistant
23 commanders are in charge of checking whether the orders have been
24 implemented correctly.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Since you were at different positions
2 in security organs at the level of brigade, corps, administration, and
3 the Main Staff for a number of years, please explain to the Chamber what
4 is a difference between command and control? Perhaps you can clarify
5 that so as -- so as not to get confused by the two terms. Since my legal
6 assistant tells me that "rukovodjenje" is translated as "control". So
7 can you explain the difference between command, control, and managing?
8 A. Command or commanding is a method applied to directly manage
9 certain units or institutions of the army of the -- of the FRY or any
10 other army, including the -- the previous JNA. So there is a right to
11 engage directly and make direct decisions on the activities of a unit,
12 including personnel issues. In this way, the commander in question
13 directly imposes his decisions on his subordinates.
14 Control, as the second term, includes professional or specialist
15 assistance to the commander. The commander, of course, cannot be
16 specialised in all the areas, starting with the military police, the
17 engineering corps, the nuclear defence units, et cetera. That is why he
18 has his assistants -- assistants, to provide professional work and
19 guidance, as well as training for those units and the way that they ought
20 to be used.
21 The third term used is "kontrola". As of the moment the
22 commander issues a task, there is a process of control in place to
23 oversee the implementation of those orders. If there is a need for
24 correction of the order, then this is made based on the situation found
25 and based on recommendations made by the professional or specialist
1 organs. This can also be done if the commander himself realises that he
2 had ordered something which cannot be implemented. Then he will amend
3 his order, and he will be included personally so as to see that the task
4 is correctly implemented.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you to repeat the three terms. You
6 explained the three terms Mr. Tolimir was asking you about. Could you
7 please repeat only the three terms without an explanation, because we
8 have a translation issue here.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Komandovanje," command;
10 "Rukovodjenje," control; and "kontrola".
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Mr. Gajic.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I dislike doing this
14 [In English] The term "control" have to be translated in Serbian
15 "kontrola". Directing, managing is something what is in Serbian
16 "rukovodjenje". [Interpretation] We are discussing technical terms.
17 However, we have repeated errors in the transcript. So as to avoid
18 translating "kontrola" with "control," whereas the word "rukovodjenje" is
19 constantly being translated as "kontrola."
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: It's been a long-standing
21 practice of the CLSS to translate "rukovodjenje" and "komandovanje" as
22 command and control, C2. It is standard NATO terminology.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is true. We have dealt with this problem
24 several times here in this trial, and we will not solve this problem
25 today I'm sure, but we know what we have to do in future.
1 I think it's time for the second break. We will resume at 1.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.
5 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'll be
6 brief, and I will abide by what you said, that we definitely won't deal
7 with the issue today. However, at page 62, lines 21 to 23, in the
8 interpreter's note, this seems to be the crux of the problem, that when
9 translating expert terms of the VRS and the VJ, corresponding NATO
10 terminology is used, which is a completely differently structured
11 military organisation.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is your position.
13 Mr. McCloskey.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just briefly, Mr. President. I don't really
15 think this is a problem, and CLSS has worked this out a long time ago.
16 When they say command and control, that is the correct English
17 interpretation, and the term "control" in English includes managing and
18 some of the other terms mentioned by Mr. Gajic. The term "kontrola" in
19 Serbian doesn't and that's where the problem is, but if he looks at the
20 term "control" in English as a broader managing term, then I think we're
21 fine, and we're of course working with him on any documents where he
22 thinks management might be a better word for control, but I don't really
23 think it's a problem. We fundamentally agree with these things. It's
24 just a -- it's just a word issue.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's nothing we have to judge about
2 Mr. Gajic.
3 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence reserves
4 the right to engage in experts should such problems persist who will deal
5 with the issue, hopefully. Of course this will take a lot of time, but I
6 believe things need to be cleared up so as to have everything in a
7 uniform way, because expert terms are translated differently. I know
8 there is no perfect solution, but when we are discussing technical terms,
9 there must be standard practice.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
11 May I, before we continue with the cross-examination of the
12 witness, ask the Defence if they will be in a position to respond to the
13 urgent Prosecution motion for protective measures for the witness to
14 come. We received this motion this morning, and I think it's really an
15 urgent motion. We would be happy to receive your response as soon as
16 possible orally in the courtroom. It's not necessary to do that now, but
17 I would like -- kindly invite you to respond.
18 Mr. Gajic.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we could do this right
20 away. We have no objection.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that. The Chamber will
22 issue a decision as soon as possible. Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your cross-examination.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Todorovic, we looked at item 23 concerning the officers of
2 security organs and commands of institutions and units. In order to
3 discuss the gist of the problem and the terms used, I believe we need to
4 look at the following: Perhaps you can tell us what the scope of work of
5 security organs is and whether NATO terminology could be applied. Let's
6 look at page 5 in the B/C/S and 6 in the English version.
7 We see the title, "The competence and tasks of security organs."
8 And "The competence of security organs".
9 We are still reading from the rules of service.
10 "1. Security organs as specialist organs of commands, units,
11 institutions and staffs of the armed forces, carry out documents of state
12 security that are placed within their competence by the law and
13 regulations issued pursuant to the law ..."
14 Can different terminology be used when discussing laws and
15 regulations we had to abide by as parts of the security structure?
16 A. It cannot be interpreted differently to what it says here.
17 Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with any other terminology, because I had
18 not had occasion to study similar laws and regulations on the work of
19 units and services of other armed forces.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. In the course of your work, could you
21 deviate from the scope accorded to you based on the laws and regulations
22 in order to discover and detect activities of the enemy solely based on
23 the use of different terminology, or did you have to abide strictly by
24 the word of the laws and regulations?
25 A. I did not deviate, and there was no need to. This is what I
1 studied, and I had these rules in front of me, including the rules of
2 work of security organs and the rules of work of the military police.
3 All security organs and military police organs of East Bosnia Corps had
4 the same rules.
5 Q. Thank you. Could we look at page 7 in English and 8 in Serbian.
6 Could we see the -- yes, this side of this page 13. Let us look at
7 sub-item (b). This is a very important issue. Actually, it is (d)
8 "performing special administration services for military police units."
9 And then (e) "operations that precede the initiation of criminal
10 proceedings ..."
11 What does it mean, "operation preceding initiation of criminal
13 A. I'm not sure we're looking at the same thing.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir referred to items (d) and (e). You
15 can see the page where the clauses are located.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with the following:
17 If there is -- there are reasons to suspect that a crime was committed in
18 a unit of the army, security organs gather initial information. In
19 further procedure, they can partially or in full engage members of the
20 military police. In the military police battalions and military police
21 companies, there used to be departments for criminal or investigative
22 measures with the aim of documenting and preparing evidence. In that
23 case, the security organ issues a specific task to the unit commander,
24 the commander of the military unit, to act specifically. If it concerned
25 stolen weapons, an on-site investigation had to be carried out, reports
1 drafted and evidence secured so as to continue any criminal procedure
2 with a view to identifying and sanctioning the perpetrators.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. When you look at item (e) which begins
5 with the words "operations that precede the initiation of criminal
6 proceedings," do investigative organs have the right in profession -- in
7 the professional sense to direct the actions of the military police unit
8 which was tasked with documenting and preserving evidence?
9 A. Yes. In all serious offences, the security organ is duty-bound
10 to inform a military court and in such cases an investigating judge is
11 appointed. Whether he would be in charge of the pre-trial procedure
12 depended on the gravity of crime. If the crime resulted in deaths, then
13 it is obligatory that the investigating judge is in charge of documenting
14 and securing evidence in investigation. In less serious crimes, he can
15 authorise members of the military police to gather evidence and document
16 its existence in order to prove that a crime was committed and to ensure
17 that the perpetrators are identified.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. We have just spoken about the
19 investigative organs and their right to engage the organs of the military
20 police to document a crime from item 7(e). I will now ask you to take a
21 look at page 13 in English and page 11 in Serbian and tell us how the
22 methods of the security organs can be applied to carry out tasks from
23 items 6 and 7. We have just read out 7(e). Thank you.
24 Thank you. Now we can see Chapter III in both languages. The
25 second paragraph of item 26 reads -- or, rather, the first item reads:
1 "Pursuant to his powers under the federal law ..." and I won't go
2 on reading, so there must be a legal foundation.
3 The second paragraph reads:
4 "In carrying out duties and tasks under items 6 and 7(A) and (F)
5 of these rules, JNA security organs may apply methods and means, and also
6 measures and operations that deviate from the principle of the
7 inviolability of secrecy of letters and other means of communications in
8 accordance with regulation in paragraph 1 of this item."
9 Can you explain to the Trial Chamber in which situations the
10 security organs of the military police have the right to act to -- to act
11 contrary to the law and use such methods and means?
12 A. These are situations when intelligence is received that there are
13 grounds to suspect that preparations are underway for the perpetration of
14 a crime or when the perpetration is possible, given the circumstances.
15 Based on this initial intelligence, the security organ drafts a note and
16 proposes the choice of a certain -- certain method to collect concrete
17 information to either confirm the suspicion or reject it. Only when the
18 security organ receives approval from the competent authority to use the
19 method in question which approval is granted for a certain period of
20 time. For example, inspecting letters whose recipient is a person that
21 is suspected to be in connection with some criminal offence, then the
22 secrecy of private correspondence can be infringed upon from the 1st of
23 May through the 15th of June, for example. So a deadline is set by which
24 it must be established whether there are grounds for suspicion or not.
25 The application of these methods require approval from the
1 competent officer or commander in an army or, in some cases, approval
2 from a court. With that, the approval of these institutions, the
3 security organ had the right to do the following: Interview members of
4 the armed forces, check their ID, check their personal information in
5 various files such as birth registers and so on in order to avoid errors,
6 and -- whereas all other methods required approval and a time-frame.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Please tell us, did the investigating
8 judge --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.
10 The interpreter didn't understand.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The interpreter asked you to repeat your question
12 because he didn't understand it, Mr. Tolimir.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I asked
14 Mr. Todorovic if in case of serious criminal offences that are difficult
15 to document, did the investigating judge entrust the security organs of
16 the military police with conducting entire investigation in order to
17 document these criminal offences such as, for example, theft of
18 armaments, ammunition, or other criminal offences against the armed
19 forces. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there have been such
21 instances, several, and incidents of aggravated theft of weapons were
22 treated for months or even years, and the security organs were authorised
23 to try and reveal the perpetrators of these crimes and recover the stolen
24 armaments, and that included inspections on the ground, checking the
25 soldier and his relatives and the area where he hails from, and so on and
1 so forth.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let us go to page 5 in Serbian and
4 page 6 in English. So --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. Just a very short
7 question. This permission, this authorisation that was given to the
8 security organ, was it given once and that was good for all the time, or
9 was it case-per-case depending on the suspect and depending on the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was specific for each incident
12 on a case-by-case basis, and it was always specified what is expected
13 as -- as the result of the application of this method of work. So it
14 wasn't just arbitrary and all-encompassing.
15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge Mindua.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Todorovic, we are in a position here to have to stress often
20 that security organs are professional organs. So take a look at item 5,
21 which says the following -- or, rather, item 1:
22 "Security organs, as specialist organs of commands, units,
23 institutions and staffs of the armed forces, carry out duties of state
24 security that are placed within their competence by the law and
25 regulations issued pursuant to the law ..."
1 Please answer the following question: Are they professional
2 organs only within the framework of those tasks of commands, units,
3 institutions and staffs when it comes to carrying out jobs of state
5 A. They chiefly do or carry out tasks that you have cited within
6 their units or the commands of their units. If during their work they
7 collect information that pertain to some other units or to undermining
8 the economic resources or political powers, then they forward that to
9 their superior security organ for that organ to inform the competent
10 authority that is more directly affected by that.
11 Q. Thank you. Let's take a look at pages 8 and 9 in English and
12 page 8 in Serbian. We're interested in item 12. Thank you.
13 So now you can see item 12. It says:
14 "The security organs report on their work to their immediate
15 superiors and the security organs of superior commands, units,
16 institutions or staffs in accordance with the provision of these rules."
17 Here is my question: Tell us, based on this, who these superior
18 organs or the superior military officers of superior commands, or units,
19 institutions or staffs are?
20 A. In my case, my superior officer was the corps commander, or to
21 name him, General Simic. And the superior organ was the chief of
22 security sector of the General Staff of the VRS.
23 Q. Thank you. Take another look at line two. It says: "The
24 security organs of superior commands." Are these the superior organs or
25 the organs of the superior command? Thank you.
1 A. These are the security organs of that command. My superior
2 commanding officer is the corps commander. When it comes to professional
3 guidance and control, which was disputed before the break, my superior
4 organ is the chief of the sector of security and intelligence of the
5 General Staff of the VRS.
6 Q. Mr. Todorovic, let us take a look at page 10 in English and page
7 9 in Serbian. Item 16, which reads -- once you can see it, I'll read it
8 out. Here it is. I quote item 16 from "Management of security organs.
9 "The security organ is directly subordinated to the commanding
10 officer of the command, unit, institution or staff of the armed forces in
11 whose strength it is placed in the establishment, and it is responsible
12 to that officer for its work ..."
13 In your particular case, to whom were the security organs in the
14 corps responsible for their work? To which officers, commanders?
15 A. As I have already answered in the previous question, I was
16 responsible for my work and the state of security and intelligence
17 support to the corps commander, or more specifically, to the commander of
18 the East Bosnia Corps, General Simic. The security organs from my
19 department were under my immediate jurisdiction. I had the right of
20 guidance with regard to them or tasking them with individual tasks. The
21 security organs in the brigades of the East Bosnia Corps were subordinate
22 to the commander and reported exclusively to him, to the brigade
23 commander, and my -- their relationship toward me was the same as my
24 relationship toward the security organ and the superior command. Just as
25 I was duty-bound to report and apply for approval from the chief of the
1 security and intelligence sector of the Main Staff, in the same way the
2 security organs in the brigades of the East Bosnia Corps were duty-bound
3 to report to me and ask me for approval or forward some things for
4 approval because my level wasn't authorised to give approval for the
5 application of some special methods applied by the security organs.
6 Q. Thank you. Let's take a look at page 16 in Serbian and page 23
7 in English. Thank you. We're interested in article 57 so we can see
8 what the level of the security administration does. Thank you. Thank
9 you. We can see 57. We also have it in English. It says:
10 "The Security Administration of the SSNO (hereinafter 'Security
11 Administration') performs duties as prescribed by these rules and other
13 Here's my question. Does it perform duties as prescribed by
14 rules and other regulations, or others as well?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, did you understand the question?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I was looking at the
17 transcript. I didn't see the thank you part, because that's my -- that's
18 my prompt to start my answer.
19 Well, as you have read out, all security organs carried out their
20 duties exclusively based on these rules of service and auxiliary
21 regulations following from these rules and were issued and approved by
22 the competent state authority.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let's look at the second paragraph of
1 "The Security Administration provides specialist management for
2 security organs in JNA commands ..."
3 My question is this: Does this specialist management refer only
4 to matters from the scope of work of the state security?
5 A. Yes. State security and, if needed, it also includes matters
6 pertaining to the military police and their engagement.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Todorovic, let us look at item -- well, other
8 items. Let's look at item 58:
9 "The Security Administration provides specialist direction and
10 co-ordination for the work of the security organs of the Territorial
11 Defence ... "
12 59: "Individual counter-intelligence cases of particular
13 interest and importance to the armed forces," which is part of their
15 Next, 60. Please turn the page.
16 "The Security Administration is managed by the chief who is
17 responsible to the Federal Secretary for National Defence ... "
18 61: "The security administration is responsible for the
19 operative processing of all ... intelligence centres."
20 In paragraph 2 of 61, it reads:
21 "The Security Administration co-ordinates matters under paragraph
22 1 of this item with matters of the State Security Service of the federal
23 administration organ competent for the interior ..."
24 Can you explain what this refers to, these matters under
25 paragraph 1, and what does it have to do with the State Security Service?
1 A. This has to do with detecting and documenting intelligence
2 activity conducted by foreign armed forces and their services aimed at
3 units and institutions of the JNA. Such centres and individuals were
4 usually embedded in diplomatic, consular, and economic missions which
5 legally existed in the territory of the former SFRY. If these were
6 activities targeting members of the JNA, then it fell under the
7 competence of the security administration of the JNA. However, most
8 frequently there was a combination where interest was shown for economic,
9 political, and other areas of interest. That is why co-ordination was
10 necessary, which had to be well harmonised in order to carry out work
11 jointly with members of the State Security Service.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. You will recall having mentioned
13 Mr. Radovic in your interview, who was with the State Security Service
14 and their centre in Bijeljina. Can you tell the Chamber whether in
15 keeping with the rules and regulations you -- were you duty-bound to
16 co-operate with state security bodies in the field?
17 A. Yes, I was. I had a fair professional co-operation with
18 Mr. Radovic.
19 Q. Thank you. Did the rules foresee that you could exchange
20 information with organs of akin services of the State Security Service
21 and that this should be a two-way road in terms of exchange?
22 A. Yes. It was envisaged in -- by the rules before us, specifically
23 in one of its items. It specifies what security organ levels and what
24 information can be exchanged with akin services. Such a service was also
25 the State Security Service.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Todorovic. Let us look at item 67 of the rules
2 before us. It enumerates all the competencies of the security
3 administration. We'll read out only the first sentence of each item.
4 "The security administration is responsible for specialist
5 training ...
6 Under (a), education; (b) programming and provision of materials.
7 (C) monitors specialist training and research.
8 68, research and publishing. 69, equipping. 72: "The security
9 administration prepares regulations on the work of security organs and
10 the military police ..." and so on and so forth.
11 Tell the Chamber whether while you were in the security
12 administration you had to abide strictly by the laws and regulations when
13 engaging in contact with anyone in the JNA who was not a member of
14 security organs or with citizens or anyone else in the society.
15 A. Yes, I had to. Of course, it refers to my professional
16 specialist work and does not include private affairs. Even in the domain
17 of private relationships, it was somewhat limited when contact with
18 foreigners was concerned, but that was prescribed by a different rule.
19 Such connections or relationships had to be documented. Anyone, in other
20 words, engaged in the work of security organs had to abide by the
21 regulations stemming from this -- from these rules, as well as by other
22 general military regulation regulating the work, life, and conduct of all
23 members of the armed forces.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we should come to an end for today.
25 Can you please tell us your estimation for the length of your
1 cross-examination tomorrow?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have
3 announced the time we would require to examine the witness. We will
4 abide by that limit, but if necessary, we may shorten the
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not the question I had put to you. We
7 have to adjourn for today, and we'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
8 this Courtroom number II. We adjourn.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day
11 of April, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.