1 Tuesday, 3 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon.
6 The Chamber is again sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, in the
7 absence of Judge Mindua, as indicated earlier.
8 The witness should be brought in, please.
9 Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Judge Nyambe.
11 Just on -- it was P200 -- 2200, the one where I had a different
12 translation, I am told the one in e-court was the proper translation so I
13 had the wrong one, so we're fine the way we are.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, it's P2200.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it correct. Thank you.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please sit down.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back to the courtroom. I have to remind
21 you that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of
22 your testimony still applies.
23 WITNESS: PETAR SALAPURA [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey has additional questions for you.
1 Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Do you recall helping one of our investigators, several years ago
7 now, in giving them help in diagramming where the different offices were
8 at Crna Rijeka?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And have you recently had a chance to look at that diagram that
11 the investigator made?
12 A. No.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Well, let's take a quick look at
14 that. It's 65 ter 07344. And, Mr. President, for some reason this did
15 not get a 65 ter number. We used it at the site visit, so it's -- I
16 don't think there's any problem, and if we could just show this to the
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to the next page, that's
21 the -- just the investigative page that talks about when this happened
22 back in 2006. And perhaps we can blow up especially that B/C/S side.
23 Q. And I think you said something, that this was your best
24 recollection, but you couldn't be positive. As you look at it now, how
25 do you -- how confident you are that that's where the basic offices were?
1 A. I believe that this is -- and I must say that I'm even less
2 certain now than I was before, but I think this is how it was. The
3 things there changed. We didn't have enough space for all of us, and
4 there was re-shuffling. Some people went to a hotel in Pijesak, some of
5 the people were in this building. But I think this is roughly it.
6 Q. Okay. And the Chamber has been there and seen those two long
7 wooden buildings that were next to each other, and let me just direct
8 your attention to the left -- the left one. And we see that Salapura --
9 that's your office at the top of the page?
10 A. Yes, yes, it is.
11 Q. All right. And we also see, if we look at the English,
12 underneath your office it says "Intel Office." Who was in there?
13 A. Analysts. And there was a clerk there, warrant officer, as well
14 as all the analysts.
15 Q. For example --
16 A. And I spent most of my time there. I was not very often in my
17 office, really.
18 Q. And you've mentioned Analyst Radoslav Jankovic. Was he there?
19 A. Yes, yes. Yes, he was.
20 Q. Mr. Mamlic?
21 A. Yes. Jankovic, Mamlic, Karanovic, Isakovic.
22 Q. All right. And when General Mladic was in Crna Rijeka, what
23 office, if any, did he work out of?
24 A. He was using the offices -- rather, this room number 6, the
25 meeting room next to Milovanovic.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I would offer this exhibit into
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2201, Your Honours.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. And, Colonel, when did you first become aware that there was a
7 VRS attack on the Srebrenica enclave? I'm talking the one that started
8 July 6th.
9 A. It was on the 12th that I learned about it, when I was in
11 Q. And as I recall, you said you first left Banja Luka on -- is it
12 July 11th?
13 A. No, on the 12th.
14 Q. And where did you go on the 12th?
15 A. Banja Luka, Modrica, Bijeljina, [indiscernible].
16 Q. And can you tell us where Modrica is? What corps was that in?
17 A. 1st Krajina Corps.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you to repeat. You mentioned four
19 locations, Banja Luka, Modrica, Bijeljina, and then another one, but we
20 couldn't hear the interpreters with this word. What was the fourth?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Beograd, Belgrade.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Could we have 65 ter 5692. This is a
24 document that I was given last night, so it may not be on the list. Oh,
25 it is on the list.
1 Q. And I know this was a while back, Colonel, but we see the
2 document is dated 1 July, from the Main Staff Intelligence and
3 Security Sector, Intelligence Administration, and it's talking about
4 these two men getting moved over to Bijeljina.
5 And if we can go to the next page in the English, and show the
6 bottom of the page in the B/C/S. Now, we see this is a teletype, so, of
7 course, there's no signature on this version of it.
8 Does this help refresh your recollection where you were on
9 1 July?
10 A. No, absolutely not. This -- something like this, the content of
11 this document does not remind me of anything. Why would I have written
12 something like that? And, anyway, I didn't sign it. I cannot see any
13 signature here. I don't know what this is. This is about some people I
14 don't know. I only heard of, I think, Bratic, Radivoje. I have no idea
15 what this is all about, secretariats in Bijeljina and Trebinje, no. At
16 the time, I was in Banja Luka, definitely. It is possible that it was
17 sent -- I see "SM/SM." That's Slobodan Mamlic. He might have drafted
18 this, based on the initials. You can see both of them as the drafter and
19 the one who sent it, and then put my signature. But as you can see, I
20 did not sign this document. It should have been "for," at least.
21 Water Supply Directorate, no, I don't know about that.
22 Q. Well, sir, we see this is a received document. So, as you know,
23 a teletype never has a signature. It's not like a fax. Perhaps you
24 called up Mamlic and authorised him --
25 A. Yes, on the original.
1 Q. Right. So perhaps you called up Mamlic and had him -- and you
2 authorised him to send this out, or perhaps you allowed people to send
3 material out in your name, without knowing about it?
4 A. I certainly did not call Mamlic about this. I can't remember any
5 of these things, what were my connections with the people who were in
6 charge of water supply. Palma, what is this:
7 "Please send Engineer Saric, Dragan, Bratic, Radivoje, to VP
8 Bijeljina. They would be engaged that for a period of 10 days at most."
9 I don't even know what this is all about. I can't even figure
10 out from the contents what it's all about. I don't remember any of this.
11 Q. Okay. So you --
12 A. Allegedly, it was sent to the Ministry of Defence.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document in evidence.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask the witness one question.
15 Sir, you see on the original, on the left side of the screen, a
16 stamp. In the second line on the stamp, you see there are two words.
17 One is crossed out and one is underlined. Could you please tell me what
18 these words mean?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "RCV, Sent/Received." Well, this
20 stamp was put by the encoding station, the people who were sending the
21 telegrams. These are their markings. As we can see, "Sent" is crossed
22 out, which means that the telegram was received on the 1st of July at
23 1755 hours.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So this is the copy which was received by the
25 addressee; is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a copy that was handed over
2 on the 1st of July at 1755 hours to the Encoding Service, and it was sent
3 via teletype. There is a "TLP" underlined here.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And could this kind of document bear
5 a signature?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the original would have had a
7 signature, but this document, this copy, I don't know where it was sent.
8 Could you please put it back on the screen or put it back up so
9 that I can see who the addressee is?
10 Yes, it was sent to the Ministry of Defence, Pale.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 This document will be received into evidence.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But why, I really can't tell.
14 THE REGISTRAR: P2202, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. So why did you leave Banja Luka to go to Belgrade?
19 A. I went to Banja Luka first for treatment. I was ill. But I
20 received an invitation to go to Belgrade for a meeting with a certain
21 person from whom I was expecting to receive certain information.
22 Q. Was this a confidential source, this person that you met with?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So who actually alerted you to this? Who called you at
25 Banja Luka? I don't need the name, if it's the confidential informant.
1 Did he just call you up, or did you hear it from one of your people, or
2 someone else?
3 A. No, I received the call or invitation via the Intelligence Centre
4 in Banja Luka.
5 Q. From what intelligence centre; an army, a corps? Who?
6 A. No, no, it was our Main Staff's Intelligence Centre. It had its
7 seat there.
8 Q. And who called you?
9 A. I cannot tell you now whether it was the chief of centre or
10 somebody else. I can't remember who was it who called me. Actually,
11 I think somebody came to my house with a car to tell me that I'm expected
12 in Belgrade on the 12th. The 12th, in the afternoon or evening hours.
13 Q. Sir, did you receive a call from the Intelligence Centre or did
14 someone come by and get you? These are important questions.
15 A. The information reached me via the Intelligence Centre. I can't
16 tell you now. They didn't call me. Somebody came to my home and
17 informed me about this.
18 Q. All right, Colonel. Now, you have said that you went to Belgrade
19 and received the actual time and date of the attack planned by the
20 Croatian forces in the Krajina, and we'll get to that, but this is some
21 of the most important information that could be possibly received by an
22 intelligence officer. I'm sure you will agree. So, please, who came by
23 and told you about this, this important information?
24 A. I hope you don't ask me -- you're not asking me to give you the
25 name, because I don't see how that is related with this case. He's not
1 here today, anyhow, and I cannot give you the name of that person.
2 Q. I'm not asking the name of the confidential informant. You said
3 someone came by, in Banja Luka, in a car?
4 A. No, they didn't -- he didn't come to Banja Luka. He came to
5 Belgrade, and I was supposed to meet with this person in Belgrade.
6 Q. Let's go back to Banja Luka. Who did you first hear from that
7 you were to go to Banja Luka -- that you were to go to Belgrade?
8 A. No, I was already in Banja Luka, and people from the centre
9 informed me that I'm supposed to go to Belgrade. The organisation was
10 like this: A person, who had come to Belgrade, called a number, a number
11 that was the number of the Intelligence Centre in Banja Luka, and also
12 there was a number in Han Pijesak, and they were informed at the centre
13 that at a certain hour I was supposed to come to Belgrade. And then
14 somebody from the centre came to my home. They knew that I was there,
15 and they told me, Colonel, you're expected in Belgrade at a certain hour.
16 We've just heard news about that. This was not the first time that I had
17 to do this. There were many occasions like that.
18 Q. Try again. Who came to your home in a car to tell you this?
19 A. One of the operatives from the centre, but I really can't
20 remember which one of them.
21 Q. And, roughly, what time of day did you set off from Banja Luka?
22 A. In the morning, yes.
23 Q. With who?
24 A. I set off with my driver and with two other officers, reserve
25 officers, IT people.
1 Q. What's your driver's name?
2 A. Radan Djukic.
3 Q. And who were these IT people? Why were they with you?
4 A. They were supposed to install new programmes at the
5 administration, and they worked at our offices in Banja Luka.
6 Q. And where were they to install programmes?
7 A. At the Main Staff Intelligence Administration in Han Pijesak, in
8 that conference room that you saw on that plan.
9 Q. Okay, and you first go to Modrica. And then from Modrica, where
10 do you go?
11 A. To Bijeljina.
12 Q. And did you stop in Bijeljina?
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. And about what time did you get to Bijeljina, just roughly?
15 A. It was around noon.
16 Q. And where --
17 A. In the afternoon.
18 Q. What part of Bijeljina? Did you go to the East Bosnia Corps
20 A. No, no, I didn't go to the East Bosnia Corps Command. There was
21 a group from that centre, a group of operatives. There was a kind of
22 group, a sub-unit numbering three persons, who worked there in Modrica.
23 Q. We're talking about Bijeljina now.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bijeljina.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, we had an interpretation error there.
1 Q. And so what did you do in Bijeljina, in this Intelligence Centre?
2 A. I didn't do anything. I was supposed to leave the IT people
3 there. Then they were supposed to put them in a car in Bijeljina and
4 transport them to Han Pijesak, whereas I continued on to Belgrade.
5 Q. So you and your driver went to Belgrade?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And about what time did you get to Belgrade?
8 A. It's hard to say. Well, it was after 1600 hours, in any case.
9 Q. And were you able to meet with the confidential source and
10 receive the information from him or her?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what was the basic information that you received from this
14 A. The Croatian Army was to carry out an attack on the Republic of
15 the Serbian Krajina. I think that the date for that was the 1st or the
16 2nd of August, 1995, using forces from the Zagreb, Split,
17 Rijeka Garrisons and a part of the forces from the Osijek Garrison. The
18 attack was to be against all of the forces of the Republic of the Serbian
19 Krajina from along the area of Lika, Banja and Kordun.
20 What was the most interesting thing was that after the execution
21 of that assignment, they were going to move to attack the forces in the
22 west of Republika Srpska, in co-ordination with forces of the
23 Bosnian Army.
24 Q. Was anybody else present with you when you received this
25 information from this source?
1 A. No. The driver definitely was not there. He was somewhere else.
2 He was sitting in the car, waiting.
3 Q. So then what did you do?
4 A. Nobody else is present in these kinds of situations, as a rule.
5 Q. So then what did you do?
6 A. I had another meeting.
7 Q. Where?
8 A. In Belgrade also.
9 Q. With who?
10 A. With a diplomat.
11 Q. From where?
12 A. In Belgrade, serving in Belgrade.
13 Q. Did you pass on any of the information you had just learned to
14 this diplomat?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What's the name of the diplomat?
17 A. We discussed completely different topics.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You were asked for the name of the diplomat.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to remember. It was the
20 Japanese military attache, but I cannot remember right now, well, if that
21 means anything to you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 I wish for peace in this house, and I would like these
25 proceedings according to God's will and not according to mine.
1 I wish to greet Mr. Salapura. I wish him a pleasant stay among
3 I would like to ask Mr. McCloskey, when he asks about the name of
4 confidential sources or diplomatic representatives, that he would move
5 into private session, not because of us or Mr. Salapura, but because of
6 them, because we're always obliged to maintain the confidentiality of
7 these people. So perhaps we could move into a private session in such
8 cases. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this assistance.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll take that proposal under advisement,
12 General, though I don't think we're getting a name anyway.
13 Q. What did you do after your meeting with the military
14 representative from the Japanese Embassy?
15 A. I returned to Bijeljina in the evening.
16 Q. Where did you go in Bijeljina?
17 A. To the premises of the centre, where I left these two IT guys
19 Q. And, roughly, what time did you get there?
20 A. Believe me, I'm really unable to tell you. I mean, I could give
21 you a rough, I don't know, Well, I think. I don't know whether this was
22 at 10.00. Perhaps 2100 hours, 2200 hours. I don't know. I cannot
23 really give you a definite time.
24 Q. And so what did you do at this Intelligence Centre in Bijeljina?
25 A. I went to sleep, and I was informed that the two IT people, they
1 were not able to take them where they were supposed to go because the
2 vehicle was -- it broke down, so they couldn't take them to Han Pijesak.
3 And so they called me that evening also. Mamlic answered the phone up
4 there. I wanted to speak to Tolimir.
5 Q. Did they call you or did you call them?
6 A. Who, did who call me? I'm sorry, I didn't understand. I didn't
7 understand who you were referring to.
8 Q. You say, "they called me that evening also." My question is:
9 Did Mamlic call you or did you call Mamlic call you?
10 A. No, no, I called, I called Mamlic, and I said that the IT people
11 had stayed in Bijeljina because they were not able to take them to
12 Han Pijesak. They didn't have a vehicle available. Perhaps that's where
13 the misunderstanding lies.
14 Q. Know then what did you say to Mamlic?
15 A. I asked for Tolimir.
16 Q. Why? Why did you want to speak to Tolimir?
17 A. Well, I was supposed to convey this information to him.
18 Q. Were you going to convey it over the telephone or however you
19 were speaking to this person? You said you called.
20 A. We had a secure line from Bijeljina, an encrypted line, so I was
21 able to use it for that. I could transfer messages to Han Pijesak using
22 an encrypted line.
23 Q. You mean oral communications or encrypted teletype?
24 A. Yes, yes, oral communication.
25 Q. And what did Mamlic tell you when you tried to get -- when you
1 wanted him to bring you Tolimir?
2 A. He told me that Tolimir was not at the command post, that he was
3 in Rogatica, or, rather, in Zepa, and that he was calling in from time to
4 time from Rogatica, or sent some information or a request from Rogatica
5 occasionally, but that they were not able to get in touch with him. He
6 was able to call from Rogatica, once he came to Rogatica, or to send a
7 message or some information from there if something was needed.
8 Q. So by the -- roughly, after 10.00 p.m. on the night of the 12th,
9 you get information that Tolimir is already on his way to the
10 Rogatica/Zepa area?
11 A. No, I didn't get the information that he was on the way there. I
12 received information that he was in Zepa, somewhere in that area. I
13 didn't get information to the effect that he was on his way or anything
14 like that.
15 Q. Did Mamlic tell you he'd been in Bijeljina that day?
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. Tolimir.
18 A. Who? No, no, he was calling from time to time. He wasn't
19 calling in every day. That's what he told me.
20 Q. So did you make an arrangement for General Tolimir to be able to
21 receive your call through Mamlic, since he was calling in at times?
22 A. Well, no, that was the conversation, and so now I asked him where
23 General Mladic was, could I speak to him. He said he didn't know, he
24 didn't have any contact with him. Of course, he didn't have any contact
25 with him.
1 So now since these people did not take these IT people to
2 Han Pijesak, I decided to go to Han Pijesak the following day to take
3 these two people up there in my own car, and to find the commander and to
4 convey the information to him.
5 Q. Did you convey this simple information you'd received to your
6 subordinate over this secure line, Mamlic?
7 A. No, no, I didn't.
8 Q. So you were the only one that had this information in your head
9 now. Did you write it down?
10 A. We did have some indications before as well. I didn't write it
11 down anywhere at the time. I just kept it in my head.
12 Q. After Mamlic didn't know where Mladic was, did you have him refer
13 you to the ops. room, the ops. people, General Miletic, General Gvero,
14 someone else there? We've seen this happen repeatedly on the intercepts.
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Did you check --
17 A. No, no --
18 Q. I understand. Did you --
19 A. -- because -- because I had had decided to take these two people
20 up there, and I was supposed to take them, anyway, the ones who were
21 supposed to have been taken to Han Pijesak that day. Anyway, they didn't
22 have a vehicle, they couldn't transport them that day, so then I decided
23 to take them in my own vehicle and to personally inform the commander, or
24 possibly Tolimir, about this information that was important. And I am
25 bound by the rules to orally state information that was important in
1 decision-making or could affect or bring about a change in
2 decision-making, and I was supposed to orally convey that to the
3 superior, perhaps in case some clarifications were necessary.
4 Q. You're saying it was more important to take the IT guys to
5 Han Pijesak than try to get Miletic or Gvero on the telephone? Why
6 didn't you try to get Miletic or Gvero on the phone?
7 A. Why would I try to get in touch with them? In view of the
8 importance of the information, it was my duty to inform the interested
9 person orally and also, along with that, transport these two IT guys --
10 Q. So why didn't you just get in your car and drive to Han Pijesak?
11 Why did you spend the night there?
12 A. Well, why would I go at night? You could see that I was
13 travelling. I had covered a lot of road. The roads were very difficult
14 at the time, they were full of potholes, worn down. I was quite tired,
15 and also I would like to remind you that my health was not very good at
16 the time. I was not feeling well.
17 Q. So what did you do in the morning? Now we're in the morning of
18 the 13th.
19 A. I set off for Han Pijesak.
20 Q. Did you make any determination on the security situation from the
21 roadway from Bijeljina to Han Pijesak?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you make any effort to find out what was going on with the
24 fall of Srebrenica, its aftermath, the movement of your troops, the
25 movement of the enemy troops, any of the critical intel information that
1 the Main Staff would have been interested in there at the centre, this
2 Intelligence Centre?
3 A. No. Why would I? I mean, that was something the Main Staff
4 should have known about. Somebody up there was probably dealing with
5 that. How was I supposed to get information about that, anyway? Perhaps
6 just ask the villagers along the way.
7 Q. You said you were at an intel centre in Bijeljina. It was an
8 army intel centre, I take it. They would have had intel?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 65 ter 141.
11 Q. Now, I believe you've seen this in the other trial, though I'm
12 not -- there is two similar documents. This, as we see, is from the
13 Drina Corps Command Intelligence Department, strictly confidential
14 number 17/896, dated 12 July. It's to the Main Staff of the VRS
15 Sector for Intelligence and Security, to the sector for Intelligence and
16 Security, your Intelligence Administration, and then there's quite a few
17 other --
18 A. [No interpretation]
19 Q. -- addresses we see there, including the MUP, and it's regarding
20 the statement of a prisoner of war, Izudin Bektic. And if we can go to
21 the end of it, I won't spend a lot of time on the intel that Bektic is
22 giving about the 28th Division escaping from Srebrenica.
23 But we see this is from your boss, Major General Zdravko Tolimir,
24 and we see a couple of stamps down there. One is a stamp from the 2nd
25 Romanija Motorised Brigade, which we can see was one of the addressees,
1 dated 13 July.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The other stamp is hard to make out, but it's dated 12 July at
4 2210 hours. And there's some other times, 2215 on the 12th of July,
5 2217, so it's an evening that this document is either sent or received
6 from the Drina Corps, under the name of General Tolimir. So what does
7 this suggest to you about the location of General Tolimir on the 12th of
8 July, in the evening?
9 A. I don't know. Well, here, at the Command of the
10 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. I don't know. Can I see the heading of
11 the document again, please?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. The beginning of the document, I would kindly ask if I could see
15 Yes, this is from the Command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade,
16 probably sent to the Drina Corps Command. And then from the Drina Corps
17 Command, it was sent to the Intelligence Administration.
18 Q. General, we can see the top heading, as in all these documents,
19 is the place where the documents originated, isn't that correct, this one
20 being the Drina Corps Command? And from the Drina Corps Command, it was
21 sent to the Main Staff and the other places?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So given that this originated from the Drina Corps Command, does
24 this suggest to you anything about General Tolimir's location on the
25 evening of 12 July?
1 A. Well, it doesn't suggest that it's the command. If it states at
2 the bottom that it's the 2nd Romanija Brigade, then it's probably in that
3 brigade, if the document was sent from there. Perhaps he was in
5 Yes, yes, please go ahead.
6 Q. Do you find any indication, General, that this document was sent
7 from the person it was addressed to, one of the people, the Romanija
8 Brigade? This is just a receipt stamp, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, yes, the IKM of the Drina Corps, the IKM Bratunac. I would
10 just like to read it in detail first, please.
11 This was sent to a number of brigades, one, two, three, four,
12 five, six, to the MUP, to Milici, and to Zvornik for their information,
13 and it was sent from the Drina Corps Command, from the Intelligence
14 Administration there. Perhaps General Tolimir was in Vlasenica at the
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2203, Your Honours.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we now go to D64. And perhaps it would help
20 the colonel if he had a document to look at.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the usher, yes, please.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
23 Q. Colonel, we see this is -- begins very similar, from the Command
24 of the Drina Corps, Intelligence Department, and this is strictly
25 confidential number 17/897. And we'll recall that the previous document
1 was 17/896. This is also dated 12 July.
2 And if we go to the next page in the English --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- and the B/C/S --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- we again see that this is in the name of
7 Major-General Zdravko Tolimir. And, again, I don't want to go over the
8 detail of this document, but it provides quite a bit of specific
9 intelligence information regarding Muslim groups, Naser Oric's deputies.
10 And the fifth paragraph down on the first page, if we could go
11 back to the first page --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- it says:
14 "All electronic surveillance units of the SRK IBK," which is the
15 East Bosnia Corps in Bijeljina, "and the Drina Corps shall fucus of
16 surveillance and monitoring radio communications between these Muslim
17 groups which operate on frequency 164800."
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, where can we find it in the
19 English version?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Fifth paragraph down, if I've got the -- yes, as
21 I mentioned. I'm sorry, I didn't notice it wasn't up there.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And as we see, this was sent to the East Bosnia Corps. And it
25 also says:
1 "The OPB organs of the brigade commands will propose to the
2 commanders of the units positioned along the line of withdrawal of
3 elements of the routed 28th Muslim Division from Srebrenica to undertake
4 all measures to prevent the withdrawal of enemy soldiers ..."
5 Let's go on to the next page.
6 It also makes reference to how the Muslims wish to portray
7 Srebrenica, and it says, well, it's very important to arrest as many
8 members of the shattered Muslim units as possible or liquidate them if
9 they resist. It's equally important to note down the names of all fit
10 men for military service who are being evacuated from the UNPROFOR base
11 in Potocari.
12 And the receipt stamps we see, again from the 2nd Romanija
13 Motorised Brigade, 13 July, but the bottom stamp is 12 July at 2150
14 hours, and then there's another one processed 2200 hours and sent 2210
15 hours. So, again, this is the evening of 12 July.
16 Do you know how General Tolimir received this detailed
17 intelligence information? He's got radio frequencies, he knows what's
18 going on in Potocari, he's got information about the Muslim groups. Were
19 you part of the chain of information that he was receiving that day, as
20 you should have been?
21 A. No, it would have been inappropriate for me to be aware of it
22 because it would have been impossible. I was away on a trip. I told you
23 that yesterday. And, second, when I went to Banja Luka, in agreement
24 with my superior, Mr. Tolimir, I went there to deal with one specific
25 problem alone. I was supposed to stay there for a month, and I was also
1 supposed to co-ordinate the work of intelligence organs between the
2 1st and the 2nd Corps and the centre, as required, whereas
3 General Tolimir took upon himself the work in the eastern parts. So I
4 didn't deal with anything of the kind over there. I did not know that
5 the attack on Srebrenica had been planned or carried out until the 12th,
6 in Modrica. In fact, it was reported by the media before I learned of
8 Q. Yes, you've said that several times, and I understand.
9 A. Therefore -- well, that's why I'm saying it's impossible, because
10 that's the question you asked and I'm trying to explain.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I cannot give an answer to that. I mean, I can speculate, I can
13 guess, but that's your assumption. I'm telling you it's the way it was,
14 and I can tell you about the procedure for obtaining such information.
15 We had an electronic reconnaissance unit in the Drina Corps.
16 Q. It's a simple question. Were you part of a chain of information?
17 The answer was, No, and you've explained why. I think we understand. Do
18 you need to explain anything else?
19 A. No, really not, absolutely not. And you also asked me how
20 General Tolimir was able to get this information and whether I was part
21 of that chain. I am just telling you that the
22 Intelligence Administration also had an electronic reconnaissance unit
23 which was a unit that kept the communications of the enemy under
24 surveillance, and they listen and eavesdrop on radio and radio-relay
25 connections, and the Drina Corps had such a unit like the
1 Eastern Bosnia Corps. They were not all equipped equally well. Some had
2 obsolete equipment. But all corps had their radio reconnaissance units,
3 and they could easily obtain such information from listening to
4 communications on the air. You call it intercepts, and we call it radio
5 reconnaissance. That's our term.
6 Q. And in the following next few days, the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th,
7 did you actually receive information from your radio reconnaissance
8 people about the 28th Division that you were able to pass on; you,
10 A. No, the Main Staff didn't have a unit of its own. Only the corps
11 had electronic reconnaissance units, and only the corps monitored these
12 communications, and they were able to obtain and process such
13 information. The Main Staff -- that is to say, the administration did
14 not have an electronic reconnaissance unit within its composition.
15 Q. General, I was asking you: Did you get information from your
16 subordinate corps, the Drina Corps? Did you, at the Main Staff, get such
17 electronic information from the Drina Corps about the movements of the
18 28th Division or any intel that you dealt with; you, Colonel Salapura?
19 A. I did not --
20 Q. Okay. Now, getting --
21 A. -- absolutely.
22 Q. Okay. Getting back to this document, again it's from the Command
23 of the Drina Corps, in the evening, from General Tolimir. Does that
24 suggest to you, especially when you combine the other document with the
25 same origin, that he spent at least some time at Vlasenica on the evening
1 of 12th July?
2 A. I don't know to whom this document was sent.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, let's go to the first page. It's just like
4 the other one.
5 Q. It's from the command. It doesn't have as many addressees. We
6 can see that. It's to the Intelligence and Security Departments.
7 A. 12th July. Is this the document numbered 17/897, dated 12 July?
8 Q. That's the one I'm asking about, very similar to the last one.
9 A. Yes. If that's the document, yes, it was sent from the Command
10 of the Drina Corps, their Intelligence Section.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And it was sent to the
13 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the Eastern Bosnia Corps.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 7348 [Realtime transcript read
15 in error "3760"]. This also did not have a 65 ter number, so I would
16 request leave of the Court to, based on some answers to my questions,
17 show this to the witness.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Sir, we can see this is from the Main Staff, the
21 Intelligence Administration, dated 15 July, very urgent, to the
22 Radio Reconnaissance Platoon of the Drina Corps, to
23 Colonel Mirko Petrovic, personally. Is this your signature at the bottom
24 of this?
25 A. Yes, it is, to the Radio Reconnaissance Platoon. Yes, it is,
1 yes, it's my signature.
2 Q. So you were involved?
3 A. It's probably Mamlic who wrote this, typed it up and gave me to
4 sign, and then I signed it.
5 Q. So you were involved with the Drina Corps radio reconnaissance
6 information? Does this help refresh your recollection or are you putting
7 this completely on Mamlic?
8 A. No, no. Mamlic was a desk officer in charge of radio
9 reconnaissance and he was in charge of this job, but this was just an
10 instruction given to other units to jam communications.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I should point out there's a typo in this
12 English translation. It says the 26th Division, and that should be the
13 28th Division, Mr. President.
14 Q. So according to this document, you've issued an instruction to
15 the Drina Corps radio recon people to jam the communications of the
16 scattered group of the 28th Division. We all know that's Naser Oric's
17 group, though he wasn't there, and the forces of the 2nd Corps of the
18 Muslim army, which we know are on the other side of the line --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- and have a task to carry out a co-ordinated operation in the
21 general sector of Zvornik and Sekovici. It's like their own typo, not
22 ours, on the spelling of "Sekovici." Do you agree with that? There's no
23 such place as Sehovici, is there?
24 A. "Co-ordinated action of forces in the broader area of Zvornik and
1 Q. So according to this document, you will have been following --
2 A. What do you mean Sehovici is not there? Sehovici is there, along
3 a different road also leading to Zvornik.
4 Q. That's not how you spell Sekovici, is it?
5 A. Here, you have an "h" instead of "k."
6 Q. My question was: That's just a typo, isn't it? Isn't that meant
7 to be "Sekovici"?
8 A. Probably, probably.
9 Q. So you, having written this document with this information in it,
10 would have been follow the activities of the 15th of July that were going
11 on in the area of Zvornik? The Muslim column, as it was moving from
12 Srebrenica through the zone of Zvornik, passed the area of Sekovici; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes, I signed this document. This is to turn on the jamming
15 devices. Somebody must have sent a request to Mamlic, and then Mamlic
16 drafted it and gave me it to sign, and later on I found myself at the
17 command post. But the information we received, we did not receive
18 directly from electronic reconnaissance, but we received intelligence
19 reports already processed by the Drina Corps. That's to say we did not
20 receive primary documents, but secondary documents.
21 Q. So you're back at the -- on the 15th, you're at the Crna Rijeka
22 Command Post, and you're engaged in your intelligence work, and you're
23 following what's going on in Zvornik with the Muslim column; is that
25 A. On the 15th of July, yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Could we go briefly back --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not taking part in the
3 intelligence work. I got involved from time to time, of course I was
4 interested in what was going on, and we were monitoring mainly
5 preparations of the Tuzla Corps for a counter-attack. That was the focus
6 of our attention. But, of course, in the process of monitoring them, you
7 also monitor the other communications. That was on the 15th, and, of
8 course, alongside you monitor the other communications as well.
9 Q. Did you know at the time that on the 15th of July, about 800
10 prisoners had been summarily executed in the Zvornik area around
11 Orahovac, about 800 had been summarily executed in the Zvornik area
12 around the village of Petkovci, and they were beginning to be executed
13 near the village of Kozluk, at the same time that the
14 Muslim 28th Division is -- you're jamming their communications?
15 A. No, definitely, and still don't understand to date that such an
16 idea could have been conceived in anyone's head. But I did not know a
17 word about it.
18 Q. Did you know your colleague, Colonel Beara, was working with
19 Zvornik Brigade Security Officer Drago Nikolic in organising and
20 facilitating those summary executions?
21 A. No, definitely not.
22 Q. Did you know that your colleague in the Drina Corps,
23 Major Pavle Golic, was communicating with Colonel Beara and Drago Nikolic
24 regarding the organisation and the facilitation of those murders?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And were you aware that Colonel Beara was asked to call and
2 report to the Main Staff several times during the days of the 14th, the
3 15th, the 16th, where you were, Crna Rijeka? Did that make its way to
4 the Intelligence Department or have you just not heard any of that?
5 A. Sorry. To report about what?
6 Q. What they were doing, I guess. They were asked to report, report
7 what they were doing in Zvornik?
8 A. No, no. That never reached me. I don't know whether that
9 information ever got to other operative organs, but it did not reach me.
10 And my administration and Mamlic certainly did not learn about it,
11 because a thing of this kind he would have reported to me immediately.
12 Whether it had reached General Miletic or someone else, I don't know.
13 Q. Did your subordinate intelligence analyst, Radoslav Jankovic, who
14 was in Bratunac from the 11th, 12th, 13th, through at least the 18th and
15 19th, did he send you reports on what he was doing in the
16 Bratunac/Potocari area on those days?
17 A. Well, he was at the SFOR base. That's what I was told. He was
18 re-subordinated to the Command of the Drina Corps to serve as a liaison
19 officer at the SFOR base in Potocari, and that's the job he was doing.
20 He was not duty-bound to submit that information to us, but to the
21 Drina Corps Command, but sometimes he would pass on information to the
22 Intelligence Administration of the Main Staff as well.
23 Q. Well, you've seen those documents in the previous trial, when he
24 reported to the Main Staff, Jankovic; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We'll go over a few of those.
2 A. Yes, there's one or two.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could I tender 65 ter 7348?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit P2204, Your Honours.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Okay. In the chronology, you're in Bijeljina. What do you do in
8 the morning?
9 A. When in the morning?
10 Q. Well, you get up. Where do you go from Bijeljina?
11 A. To the toilet. Then I go wash my face and get ready. And then
12 from Bijeljina, I went in the morning -- do you mean the 13th? To
13 Han Pijesak.
14 Q. I'm sorry, the 13th. So where did you go on the morning of the
16 A. To Han Pijesak.
17 Q. And did you check the security situation on the roadway - that's
18 where we left off - before driving down there?
19 A. No. No, I never checked that.
20 Q. And where can you go?
21 A. If there was a problem, somebody would have stopped me. They
22 would just stop the car and say, You can't go on, there's something going
23 on further up the road. And I've been through critical situations many
24 times during the war, and nobody -- nobody ever warned me that there was
25 a problem somewhere.
1 Q. And so when did you first drive to from Bijeljina?
2 A. When I went to Han Pijesak, and my first stop was at
3 Konjevic Polje.
4 Q. And can you tell us -- the Judges are familiar with this, but
5 from Bijeljina, up in the north, did you go along the river through
6 Zvornik and then down to Konjevic Polje? Is that the way you went? --
7 A. No, not north, just down the Drina River. Yes, yes, yes, to the
8 right, that's the road I took.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, could you please check the
10 transcript. On page 30, line 21, it is recorded that you have said:
11 "And so when did you first drive to Bijeljina?"
12 Was that really your question?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should have been "from Bijeljina." I could
14 have misspoken.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. So you get to Konjevic Polje, and where, precisely, do you go?
18 A. Sorry, now I have some interference.
19 From Konjevic Polje, when I got there, on the left side there was
20 some sort of stadium. There were quite a few prisoners there. And I
21 headed to the Battalion of the Military Police. That's up towards
22 Kasaba. I wanted to get information about the whereabouts of
23 General Mladic.
24 So I came to the MP Battalion. I believe the battalion
25 commander, Malinic, was there. And then they told me that they didn't
1 know exactly, but he was somewhere in the area of Bratunac, so I headed
2 back and towards Bratunac.
3 Q. So was this the 65th Protection Regiment Military Police
5 A. No, that was a battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment of the
6 military police. It was a battalion within the 65th Regiment.
7 Q. And where did the 65th Protection Regiment belong, where did that
8 belong in the structure?
9 A. It's an independent unit of the Main Staff.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Could we have 65 ter 888.
11 Q. Now, do you recall basically testifying to that chronology in the
12 Blagojevic case, where you testified about getting to Nova Kasaba, and
13 the prisoners at the 65th, and going to the 65th Protection Regiment
14 base? Do you remember testifying about that?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And do you remember the Defence attorney --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- for Colonel Blagojevic had showed you this particular
19 intercept during that testimony? Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes, yes, yes.
21 Q. And so had he shown you this intercept, before you'd actually
22 testified, to help you get ready for the testimony and what you would be
23 testifying about?
24 A. No, no, he didn't.
25 Q. So the first time you saw this was when he dropped it on you in
1 the trial?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed.
5 We must have our first break now, and we will resume quarter past
7 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please go ahead.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And, Mr. President, I've cut some material
11 and tried to estimate. And I'm going much slower than I had thought, but
12 I will finish this segment, if that's all right.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It means a little bit more than one additional
14 hour. Try to do your very best.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Definitely.
16 Q. All right. Colonel, we had this intercept up on the board, and
17 you recall talking about it in the Blagojevic trial, I'm sure. This is
18 an intercept we received from the Croatian Government. It's a synopsis,
19 as you can see, and it says:
20 "Major Malinic, the commander of the 65th Protective
21 Motorised Regiment, and Colonel Pero Salapura ..."
22 Are you ever called "Pero"?
23 A. Not to my face. Pepo. Maybe some people in Croatia maybe called
24 me Pero some time ago.
25 Q. And you just said "Pepo"?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Is Pepo your normal nickname?
3 A. That would be the most oftenly used, but Pero, Pepo, Petar.
4 There are many nicknames in our part of the world.
5 Q. Yes, we know that. So now it says "VRS Security Service" in
6 English. Is that what it says in the Serbian, or the Croatian, I should
8 A. It says "Security Service," and it shouldn't be, it should be
9 "Intelligence Service," because Security Service" is "Bezbednost."
10 They've obviously mixed things up.
11 Q. Okay, so they got that wrong. You said that --
12 A. It doesn't matter.
13 Q. You did say you were at the football field at Kasaba, and this
14 says they were about -- around about 500 prisoners there at the moment.
15 Is that roughly correct? When you were there, were there 500, about?
16 A. If I may, please, I think this was in Konjevic Polje. This
17 football pitch was in Konjevic Polje, not in Kasaba, or am I wrong? But
18 I think it was in Konjevic Polje. It was on the right-hand side. If
19 that's how it was, then, yes, I was not at the football pitch, itself. I
20 just passed by it. And on the way back from Bratunac, I was stopped by a
21 non-commissioned officer, I think, who asked me to go see Malinic again
22 and to pass it on to him that there were certain problems there. Whether
23 it was about water or -- I can't remember now, because I met with Malinic
24 both on my way there and back. But I did not go to the football pitch.
25 I just passed by it, and I was stopped there by this man. And then my
1 conversations with Malinic were at a school, but I think that school is
2 in Kasaba, where the Command of the Military Police Battalion was.
3 Q. And did you make any effort to communicate with anyone, over
4 telephone or radio, from the base of the 65th Protection Regiment, the
5 Military Police Battalion?
6 A. Whether I talked with someone from that location, no, I don't
7 remember talking to anyone from the base, except directly with Malinic,
8 but I don't remember any other conversations.
9 Q. And what did you learn from Malinic?
10 A. Nothing. Our first conversation, and I told you about it, was
11 about where General Mladic is, and I was told that General Mladic was in
12 the area of Bratunac. And on my return, I just passed on the information
13 received from his soldiers that they are having problems with water,
14 because it's very hot and they just need more water.
15 Q. So Malinic told you where Mladic was, and you just went to see
16 Mladic; is that right?
17 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. From there, I then returned back, and
18 from there, I set off to Bratunac. And I was told there, at the brigade
19 command, that Mladic wasn't there, that he was somewhere in the area of
20 Srebrenica. And I also left the IT people there, and I headed for
21 Srebrenica and Potocari. At first, I thought it was Srebrenica, but
22 later on, in my conversations or during the interview with your
23 investigator, who showed me a photo, I realised I hadn't been in
24 Srebrenica, but in Potocari instead.
25 Q. Well, before leaving the Kasaba area, where these 500 prisoners
1 were, did you make any effort to see what sort of intelligence
2 information was being gathered from these prisoners or whether there had
3 been any effort -- any organised effort to interview them to get intel?
4 A. No, no. First of all, there was no one I would ask. I wouldn't
5 know who to ask. There were only soldiers there. And, secondly, I did
6 not take part in the planning of the operation, not at all. And in the
7 planning, everything gets organised. I cannot get involved, and there
8 would be no purpose in my involvement. There was nothing I could get out
9 from that. It's a system that is functioning, goes from platoon to
10 company, battalion, brigade, and so on and so forth. Everything is well
11 organised. I could not just get out and then go just to the -- I was,
12 you see -- I was chief of administration. It would be silly. I would
13 come to a soldier and say, You, soldier, tell me, and what should I ask
14 them? I didn't even know what to ask. I was not involved in the
15 planning of the operation at all. And as far as Srebrenica, itself, for
16 me and for the Intelligence Administration, Srebrenica was not of any
17 interest. Immediately after the taking of Srebrenica, itself, it became
18 absolutely uninteresting for us. We were interested in the Tuzla Corps
19 and the problems concerning the column that you asked me about. That was
20 something that was under the jurisdiction of military police, MUP, and
21 other organs. Any information, of course, received is passed on, yes,
22 but this was not the focus of our activities, and especially not the
23 focus of my activities. I was there just -- I just happened to be there,
24 and I did not try and get into anything.
25 Q. So when you went by the Bratunac Brigade headquarters, did you
1 see any intel person, Momir Nikolic, Radoslav Jankovic, the commander?
2 Did you see any officers there at all?
3 A. No. Well, yes, I ran into -- I don't know who he was, but he was
4 the duty officer of the Bratunac Brigade. And I did ask him about the
5 whereabouts of General Mladic, and he told me that General Mladic was in
6 the area of Srebrenica. I also left the two officers there, and I asked
7 them to -- asked the people there to give them something to eat. I do
8 not remember seeing any of the officers. I did not even know the
9 commander of the brigade there. I didn't know the officers there.
10 Q. Had you learned that Radoslav Jankovic was there from Malinic?
11 A. Not from Malinic. Malinic was commander of the Military Police
12 Battalion. I didn't know where Radoslav Jankovic was at that time. I
13 believed he was up there. Only when I got there, Mamlic told me that
14 Karanovic was on leave, that this one was as I just mentioned, and that
15 he was on his own, and so on and so forth.
16 Q. So when you keep saying "up there," so when you got back to
17 Crna Rijeka on that very day, the 13th, that's when you learned Jankovic
18 was in the Bratunac area?
19 A. Yes, that Jankovic was at the SFOR compound. That's what I was
20 told, I assume upon an order by his commander or maybe General Tolimir,
21 that he was assigned to be the liaison officer of the Drina Corps with
22 the SFOR and that he is at the SFOR compound in -- not in Bratunac, but
23 in - what's it called? - Potocari.
24 Q. And when you say "SFOR" --
25 A. Or Bratunac.
1 Q. As you're aware, SFOR was the name of one of the NATO contingents
2 that was there. The first one in 1996 was IFOR, the next one was SFOR.
3 So when you say "SFOR," what do you mean; UNPROFOR?
4 A. Yes, it was first UNPROFOR during the war, yes.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Can we see P01021, starting at
6 65 ter 888. Oh, excuse me, I didn't offer to tender the last one, 888.
7 I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, we have seen on the screen two
9 intercepts, the English interpretation or translation of two intercepts,
10 but you were only dealing with one we have seen in B/C/S. Is it possible
11 to up-load only the -- the translation of that one you, in fact, are
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it is. It's always been that way, but
14 there's no reason it should be. You're correct, we can just get the one.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That one, in both versions, will be received as
16 an exhibit.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2205, Your Honours.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. And before I play the video: Were you able to see Mladic,
20 shortly after leaving Bratunac, either in Potocari or in Srebrenica?
21 A. Yes. In Potocari, yes.
22 Q. And when you saw him, was there anybody filming? Did you see any
23 film cameras?
24 A. Yes, yes, there were more than one people with cameras. There
25 were also journalists there. He was answering questions, giving an
1 interview. They were recording it, and I stood there, about 30 metres
2 away from him, and then he just gave me a sign saying, Wait a minute.
3 Q. So did you understand that it was likely that you were filmed as
5 A. I don't know. I wasn't paying attention.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's play the video.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you do this, perhaps --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, I saw it in court.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps I missed something.
10 I recall that you told us you received a secret message in
11 Belgrade, and then you wanted to contact Mladic or Tolimir, is that
12 correct, in order to convey this message?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's correct. That's
14 why I was there in the first place.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you convey this message to General Mladic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had that message for him and
17 another or maybe two more proposals. But even as I was conveying him the
18 message and my views on it, we disagreed about certain things. And our
19 conversation was interrupted, and then I got back into my vehicle and
20 headed to Han Pijesak. We had an argument about some items concerning
21 the message, itself, its urgency and the seriousness of the content.
22 General Mladic was elated with the success of the operation. It
23 was completed successfully, without significant casualties and so on.
24 And I told him that that was of lesser importance, that General Krstic
25 should deal with the rest of the situation, and that General Mladic
1 should start dealing with the problems in the west. And then we had kind
2 of a conflict, and then I just turned on my heel and left.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting, Mr. McCloskey. Please
4 carry on.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We have a film that we believe is
6 from the 13th of July from Serbian Radio and Television, and we'll start
7 it at 40:10. It's P01021.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. We've stopped it at 41:06.1. We see
10 General Mladic has just been chatting with a woman.
11 Q. Do you recognise anyone in that photograph besides
12 General Mladic?
13 A. Yes. I'm here, behind.
14 Q. Well, there is -- are you behind the woman in the --
15 A. I think so. Yes, yes, yes, I think that's me.
16 Q. Behind the woman in the white T-shirt?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Your face is partially obscured by her head?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was this around the time that you spoke to General Mladic?
21 A. Yes. I think this was before our conversation, because we
22 started our conversation after everything was recorded. That's at least
23 how I remember things.
24 Q. So did you have --
25 A. I don't remember this very segment, but it could have been only
1 immediately prior to our conversation.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I think we can just play it out.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It ended at 00:41:17.5.
5 Q. Now, Colonel, did you have a chance, after that little video-clip
6 we saw, to actually speak to Mladic privately?
7 A. I spoke to him personally, if that's what you're asking me. In
8 the clip, there was no conversation between us. But our conversation was
9 not private; it was official.
10 Q. What I mean, Colonel, is did you talk to him about these
11 important matters, with other people listening, or did you talk to him
12 alone, just you and he?
13 A. I think his security detail was there. I don't know how many
14 people, how many soldiers, but they were several metres away. This is my
15 best recollection.
16 Q. And when you and your driver went back, did you drive through
17 Potocari on your way?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, roughly, what time of day is it that you're driving back,
20 just very roughly? We see, from the intercept, that they overheard some
21 communication about you being there at about 10.15 at Kasaba, in the
22 morning, so can you give us just a rough gauge on when you would have
23 left to go --
24 A. It may have been 10.00, Kasaba. It may have been 2.00 p.m. or
25 1.00 p.m. I cannot be more precise than that.
1 Q. And when you went through Potocari, did you notice men, old men
2 and young men, being separated from their families?
3 A. At that time, there were like elderly men, younger men, women,
4 children, but I did not observe any kind of selection. I did see women
5 and children getting onto the buses, but I wasn't paying too much
6 attention to that. I think they were at the time loading up buses,
7 because there were a few buses there. And, yes, there were many, many,
8 many women and children and elderly people, but I cannot give you any
9 precise numbers either, and there were also our soldiers there.
10 Q. According to a Bratunac Brigade MP who has testified in this
11 case, he was directed to count the men who were separated from their
12 families by your subordinate, Radoslav Jankovic, who was also in Potocari
13 at that time. Did you see Radoslav Jankovic in Potocari either when you
14 went through the first time or came back on the second time on the 13th?
15 A. No, no. I haven't seen him at all, and I didn't have any
16 contacts with him.
17 Q. Did you see any bodies --
18 A. And I also didn't see any of the officers I knew at the time in
19 Potocari. I believe -- at least I haven't noticed any separation going
20 on. I just saw several buses there, and people were entering into the
21 buses. It was before I set off back that I saw people entering the
22 buses, after my conversation with Mladic.
23 Q. When you had your conversation with Mladic, did he tell you about
24 his order to separate the men and have them all killed?
25 A. No. I don't think he would have said something like that to my
1 face. He certainly wouldn't have said that to my face. If he did issue
2 such an order or anything like that, he would definitely not have said it
3 in front of me. And we -- I just said I had two or three questions to
4 discuss with him, but the conversation was cut off, on the basic
5 question. I had -- about this conversation with the diplomat, I mean, we
6 can go back to that now. When we were talking, he asked me, What's going
7 on in Srebrenica? I told him that I didn't know, that I didn't have any
8 information, that I didn't even know about it. And then we talked about
9 this arrival, that we would see. And he said, You probably have a lot of
10 prisoners, and it would be a good thing to organise that and treat them
11 strictly in the spirit of the Geneva Conventions, and, in a way, we could
12 perhaps help out in changing this image of you that the world has. It
13 was my intention also to talk about that, to convey that to the
15 Q. Who are you saying is telling you that you have a lot of
16 prisoners and they should be treated according to the Geneva Conventions?
17 Who is saying this to you? You lost me.
18 A. No, I said this is what the diplomat in Belgrade told me. I told
19 you that. Most probably, you will have a lot of prisoners. As for this
20 here, no, this was not discussed at all in the conversation between me
21 and General Mladic, just what we were doing, we did a great job, we
22 completed it all quickly, the operations. He was talking with
23 journalists over there. I think they were waiting for him to give
24 another interview, I think.
25 Q. So you're now saying a Japanese diplomat, on the night of the
1 12th, told you you probably have a lot of prisoners and you should treat
2 them according to the Geneva Conventions?
3 A. Yes, and that this should be open and shown to the world, this
4 position of ours, this attitude of ours.
5 Q. Okay. After you go through Potocari, and, as you've said, you
6 didn't see much, I take it you go through Bratunac, and then on to
7 Konjevic Polje, and passed Nova Kasaba, and on to Han Pijesak.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you see anything or talk to anyone of significance?
10 A. Well, I said I met with Malinic again, I dropped by again on my
11 way back, because when we got there to the intersection where the
12 prisoners were, one of his superiors, a non-commissioned officer, asked
13 me to drop by at -- stop by at the battalion command and to tell them
14 that they were having problems with water, that they didn't have water.
15 So I dropped by there again. I don't know what time it was. It was
16 already the afternoon. I dropped by at Malinic's, at the battalion
17 command, and I conveyed this to him.
18 Q. Were there more prisoners on the soccer pitch than there were the
19 first time you were there?
20 A. Prisoners? I don't think so. Well, I didn't really count the
21 first time. I didn't pay attention. There were quite a few, but I
22 couldn't tell you exactly how many. I said that the last time. There
23 was several hundred. I don't know how many. I didn't notice that it was
24 any kind of large number.
25 Q. The intercept said "500." Do you disagree with that?
1 A. I really couldn't say. I really wouldn't want to be going back
2 and forth with the number. I couldn't say whether it was 200, 300, 500.
3 I wasn't really paying attention to that.
4 Q. What happened to those 500 prisoners?
5 A. I don't know. I am just talking about that -- well, I can say,
6 through the trial proceedings, the reports, that these people were shot,
7 but at that point in time I didn't know what happened. I didn't know
8 what was going on right until the time of the Erdemovic case.
9 Q. So what do you learn at the time of the Erdemovic case? And
10 Erdemovic was arrested on March 2nd, 1996, in Belgrade, and his initial
11 appearance at the Tribunal was 31 May 1996.
12 A. Yes, already then the media began to write, already when he was
13 arrested in Belgrade, about how members or a group of members from the
14 Sabotage Battalion executed a number of those prisoners and whatnot. And
15 what do I know? And they did mention some numbers. The numbers keep
16 changing from then to now. The numbers range from 3.000 to 8.000, the
17 total number of people who were shot.
18 Q. So are you saying it wasn't until sometime after his arrest on
19 March 2nd, 1996, that you learned that people were murdered by the VRS?
20 A. Yes. When this was published in the press, then the stories
22 Q. Well, we have spent quite a bit of time looking at how the
23 10th Sabotage was used, how it was used in Srebrenica. And what have you
24 learned? How was it used on the 16th of July, 1995?
25 A. Yes, I found out that a group of soldiers was used, not a unit.
1 Q. What did you find out?
2 A. First, I received information that it was three or four soldiers.
3 This was when Erdemovic was arrested. After that, the first headlines in
4 the press appeared. I can't remember the exact date. And then later,
5 everything was published. It was all clear through the proceedings in
6 this Tribunal, and so on and so forth. But then I called Pelemis, the
7 commander of the unit. I was already on vacation or at -- was available,
8 and I asked him whether this was correct, that they participated. And I
9 know that at that time, that a part of the unit was in Modrica and the
10 other part was engaged in combat in Srebrenica, and then they were
11 allowed to have a ten-day rest period. He told me --
12 Q. Please tell us what Pelemis told you.
13 A. He told me that, yes, they did take part, they were engaged. And
14 then I asked him, Did you take part in the ordering? He said he did not,
15 but that the soldiers went voluntarily, that he did not order them to do
16 so. I said that nothing further interested me. The person whose problem
17 it was would then need to resolve the problem subsequently. That's all.
18 I just want -- I told him, I just want to know if you were or weren't.
19 And if you were involved, then you need to face that.
20 Q. So do you really believe that four soldiers went voluntarily and
21 took part in this massive execution? Is that really what you think
22 happened, it was just the four soldiers went voluntarily, no orders
24 A. Well, see, I asked Pelemis if he was the one who issued the
25 order, and he told me that he wasn't and that they went voluntarily. And
1 to this day, I don't know exactly what the actual truth is.
2 Q. So, Colonel, what did you learn really happened? Four soldiers
3 don't find their way across the country-side to a mass execution
5 A. No, no, no, I'm talking about the time -- absolutely. I'm just
6 telling you what I got at that time, what is left. I am not going into
7 the things that I could read about in the press and things that emerged
8 in the trials before this Tribunal up until now. I don't want to go into
9 that. This was something that was already established by the Court. You
10 probably know that so much better than me in a second, in a minute.
11 Q. Erdemovic has stated that he was able to get an ID to help him
12 get into Serbia. Did you help Erdemovic and others get IDs, well before
13 he got arrested?
14 A. What personal ID? I don't know what you're talking about. Whose
15 ID he got?
16 Q. Did you help get fake IDs for Erdemovic and other members of the
17 10th Sabotage Detachment so they could get into Serbia or for other
19 A. Republika Srpska, they had personal ID cards in Republika Srpska,
20 and they, in any event, had them still. I think they were issued to them
21 during the war so that they would be able to move around as citizens. As
22 for fake ones, that is something I don't know, if these were the ones
23 that were issued in Republika Srpska. I don't know about them getting
24 any other kind of IDs. I don't know.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have 65 ter 7360 on the screen.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I know that the MUP of
2 Republika Srpska issued them with ID cards.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Do you wish to change your testimony, sir, before this document
5 comes up on the stand -- up on the screen?
6 A. Regarding what? Regarding the IDs?
7 Q. All right. Let's take a look at this.
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. This is dated 16 January 1996, well before Erdemovic was
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It's a document from the Public Security Department head.
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. And it's to the Main Staff of the VRS, Sector for Intelligence
15 and Security, intelligence information -- for information, and the police
17 "Please find enclosed the full text of a dispatch from the
18 Main Staff of the VRS."
19 A. Yes, yes, I see it. Yes, I see.
20 Q. Let me read it, sir:
21 "... Sector for Intelligence and Security."
22 And they send this thing on. And if we go to the second page,
23 what they send on - could we go to the next page in English - is in your
24 name, so let's see what they say you sent them, because they said they
25 enclosed the full text of the dispatch, as we can see. That was dated
1 14 January to the Ministry of Interior, to the minister, personally. So
2 you're communicating to him personally:
3 "Considering that we have a group of members of the
4 10th Sabotage Detachment who are foreign citizens or are on the list of
5 individuals who have been indicted by The Hague Tribunal, we ask that you
6 order the Bijeljina MUP to issue personal IDs with Serbian first names
7 and last names to these individuals, or with different first and last
8 names for Serbian nationals. There are eight such individuals.
9 "They should be reported by the commander of the
10 10th Sabotage Detachment or the intelligence person from the command of
11 the detachment.
12 "Please inform us about your decision.
13 "Chief, Colonel Petar Salapura."
14 Now --
15 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
16 Q. Drazen Erdemovic, his testimony is that eight members of the
17 10th Sabotage Detachment took part in this mass execution, and here, sir,
18 you --
19 A. Yes. Yes, I see it here, eight, yes.
20 Q. And I don't need to remind you you're testifying under oath.
21 A. Yes, yes, yes.
22 Q. But, sir --
23 A. I am testifying correct, absolutely. Believe me, I do not recall
24 this, but I do accept it, meaning that then I -- yes, I see it.
25 Q. Colonel, you've --
1 A. But I am telling you that I was convinced that that's what it was
2 up until this moment.
3 Q. Colonel, you've testified that you didn't even hear about any of
4 the killings until Erdemovic was arrested, which wasn't until March.
5 You're now, in a document dated January, talking about a list of people
6 in The Hague indictment list, and you're asking for fake --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- IDs for them. So, sir, you are involved in this much more
9 than you're telling us, aren't you? Why don't you tell us the truth?
10 How much are you involved? Just tell us right now. Get it off your
12 A. No, no. Believe me, I am getting it off my chest. I have
13 nothing to do with that, and I am horrified by it. Today, I'm horrified
14 by it, but I'm not able to connect that to the actual events. It's been
15 quite a while since that time. I think that then, the first information
16 I had about it, then I didn't know that anyone from this unit
17 participated in that. I received information about it down there in
18 Mostar from Safet Orucevic when he told me that there were stories there
19 that people from Srebrenica were killed, a number of them, and so on and
20 so forth, so I cannot really tell you exactly when this was. It was in
21 late 1995, 1996. I really -- couldn't really get a grasp on the number
22 of the people, that something like that was possible, the scale. But
23 here I see that it is the 16th of January, 1996.
24 Q. All right, Colonel, let's go back. You're now --
25 A. Yes, yes, that's when the indictment was issued.
1 Q. And what time do you get back to Crna Rijeka on the 13th, just
2 roughly again?
3 A. It was in the afternoon.
4 Q. All right. And do you see General Mladic that night?
5 A. When I returned? No, I don't know that I saw him. I don't
6 remember seeing him in Crna Rijeka.
7 Q. And did you receive an intelligence update on what was going on
8 in Srebrenica, and Nova Kasaba, Bratunac, the column going towards Tuzla;
10 A. No, not then.
11 Q. The next morning, on the 14th, I want to ask you about -- we know
12 on the 15th, as you've already told us, that you issued an order to jam
13 the communications of the 28th Division and the 2nd Corps, but let's talk
14 about the 14th. I want to go to --
15 A. Yes, the jamming, the jamming, yes.
16 Q. Well, I want to go to the 14th. The jamming was the 15th, when
17 you're at work, so -- and you've --
18 A. Yes, yes, yes.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to tender 65 ter 7360, if I could.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit
21 list, and this document will be received.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2206, Your Honours.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. And, Colonel --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put one question to the witness at this
2 moment, please.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, how many letters did you write directly to a
5 minister of your government?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How many questions I sent to the
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many letters did you write directly to a
9 minister of your government?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence minister, you mean?
11 Which minister?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A minister, any minister of your government.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I really couldn't
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did that happen quite often?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember how many I wrote.
17 Not many. I don't remember. Perhaps I sent some to the minister of
18 defence. I don't see any reason to write or of having to write to any
19 other ministers.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that the normal chain of reporting for you,
21 as a colonel in the army, directly to a minister of your government?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was not customary, unless
23 there was a need for something specific. I don't know. I don't remember
24 what letters I wrote and what the letters were about.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are still saying that you don't recall
1 this letter about the fake IDs you wrote personally to a minister?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, and I said that. I know
3 that ID cards were issued to everyone in Republika Srpska, and that I
4 requested that, and that they were issued by the
5 Bijeljina Security Centre.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, one moment, please. I'm not asking you
7 about the normal procedure to all citizens of Republika Srpska. I'm
8 asking you about this --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that, yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- to the minister, personally. This is a quite
11 unusual letter.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What was the reason for that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, like it said, there are
15 letters. I'm not disputing that. They are there, but I simply don't
16 remember. I know that I did request that ID cards be issued to soldiers
17 who did not have our ID cards. I don't know whether that was then and
18 with this motive here. Please believe me that I don't remember, but that
19 is that. I do accept that. I'm not disputing it, but it's been a lot of
20 time since then, and a person just doesn't remember everything. I wrote
21 a lot of documents and sent them out. I did write frequently to the
22 foreign minister also, also to the Security Services. This was the
23 customary channel of communication. But I don't think that I wrote many
24 letters to the minister of the interior.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you ever write a letter to the foreign
1 minister, personally?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did to a foreign minister,
3 yes, I did.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Personally?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, personally to him, yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Were you allowed, as a career officer of the
7 army, to write letters to the foreign minister, personally and directly?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because there was certain
9 information there that was at the same time of interest for me and for
10 him or them.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you didn't send it through your superiors in
12 the chain of command to your commander in the Ministry of Defence?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it didn't go to the Ministry of
14 Defence. It went to them directly from the General Staff, but it was
15 sent once the commander approved it and said that the foreign minister or
16 the president of Republika Srpska would need to be informed about that
17 particular piece of information. Then that kind of information we did
18 send out.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Colonel, is there anything about this particular request that you
22 sent to the minister that would have upset your boss, General Tolimir? I
23 mean, we all know what upsets our bosses.
24 A. Well, I don't know. I don't know if Tolimir is informed about
25 this, how can I put it?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a small
3 correction on page 51, line 16. The exhibit number is, I think, a bit
4 too long.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Colonel, that wasn't my question. You know your boss. You know
7 what you're allowed to do, what you're not allowed to do. Looking at
8 this now, would this have gotten you in trouble with General Tolimir,
9 this request? --
10 A. Well, it says "Sector" here. It could be that General Tolimir
11 was not there at the time and that I signed it for that reason. I would
12 not be able to say for sure now, because up at the top it says
13 "Main Staff, VRS, Sector for Intelligence and Security Affairs and
14 Administration of Intelligence, for your information," et cetera. It
15 could be that he wasn't there.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for the record, the document number on
17 page 51, line 16, should be P2206.
18 Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Colonel, it was a simple question. Would this request, had it
21 been known by General Tolimir, gotten you in trouble with
22 General Tolimir? We all know what gets us in trouble with our bosses, or
23 our Judges, or our spouses.
24 A. Yes, perhaps it would if it had been sent without his knowledge,
25 but it could also be that he was absent at the time and I sent it out
1 myself. Now, whether he got to know about this subsequently, I really
2 couldn't say.
3 Q. Wouldn't General Tolimir have to know about your personal request
4 to a minister to issue fake IDs to people you thought were on the
5 indictment list?
6 A. Well, he should have. That's how it should be.
7 Q. All right. Let's --
8 A. But I really cannot say, one way or another, for sure. That's
9 the way it should be, but I can't be certain now.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go to an area that I know you've gone over with
11 before in the last trial, so it shouldn't take us too long. And I'd like
12 to go to the exhibit. It should be -- it's the duty officer note-book,
13 and we can give you the original so you can read it clearly in the
14 original. It should be P01459, e-court page 41 in English and page 40 in
15 the B/C/S.
16 And as you'll remember from the last trial, you were shown this
17 duty officer note-book from the Zvornik Brigade, and we should get to the
18 parts that we're talking about. And if you could -- we'll give you the
19 original book, which makes it a lot easier. And you know and we all
20 know --
21 A. 14 July.
22 Q. Yes. What we have on the right side in the English is what we
23 call the teacher's edition, where we have put in some analysis. Now, we
24 know, as do you, that the duty officer of the Zvornik Brigade, like all
25 duty officers, sometimes will take notes on information that comes in.
1 That's his job. And this Major Dragan Jokic was the duty officer on the
2 14th of July. And it's always difficult to tell in this rough book
3 exactly what time a call came in, but we can see, if we look back in the
4 book, references to some times, but the time doesn't really matter.
5 Dragan Jokic wrote down that:
6 "Colonel Salapura called and that Drago and Beara are to report
7 to Golic."
8 And just to put this in context, on the 14th of July there's
9 significant evidence in this case that Colonel Beara was working with
10 Drago Nikolic, the security officer of the Zvornik Brigade, to transport
11 and murder, by firing squad, thousands of Muslim prisoners held in the
12 Zvornik area. There's also indications that Major Golic was
13 co-ordinating that from Vlasenica by making sure their fuel was issued.
14 And on the 14th, according to the duty officer, you call and pass
15 on the message that Drago and Beara are to report to Golic. So do you
16 recall this? And if so, why on earth, Colonel, are you calling for Beara
17 and Drago Nikolic and having them call Golic in the middle of a genocide?
18 A. I really don't know what was going on. It's obvious that I was
19 just passing on a message. And it says here not the Beara report to
20 Golic, but to stop at Golic's office. That probably refers to Vlasenica.
21 It depends on the time. It could have been at the time of breakfast or
22 lunchtime, and at that time Mamlic could have gone to Miletic, or called
23 and there was no one, and then I was the one who passed the message, or
24 perhaps a telegram was received at that time and I just passed the
25 telegram on. This could have, perhaps, been a message. I'm not managing
1 to recall it, but I'm just thinking that's the only explanation I can
2 think of. I, myself, have no reason -- would have had no reason to call
3 them directly. It's a completely different service. I could only have
4 passed somebody else's message; for example, that I received a message at
5 the command post, but it could have been a message from Tolimir or from
6 the commander, although the commander's message would probably go through
7 the staff. No, I don't know about this, and I couldn't really explain it
8 otherwise. But it's just a message that was passed on, that's true.
9 Q. That's your answer, this is just a message, and you don't know
10 anything about what it was about?
11 A. No, I don't know. You can see from the contents that's how it
12 was in the original, that they should call, and it just didn't contain
13 any more. Now, why they were supposed to call or to go somewhere, for
14 what purpose, I don't know. I just would like to say that the way it's
15 written here doesn't necessarily mean they were to report to Golic,
16 himself, but they were perhaps just wanted in Vlasenica, they were
17 supposed to go see somebody there.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness kindly speak into the
19 microphones, please. Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 75 in English and 74 in the
22 Q. And, Colonel, it should be the next tab. We can help you with
23 that, if you'll give it to us.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the usher, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. And this is no longer on the 14th. It's probably on the late
3 night of the 15th, or early morning hours of the 16th. And there's
4 another message:
5 "Drago and Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic are to report to
6 Major Golic early in the morning."
7 Do you have any knowledge about that?
8 A. No --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- absolutely nothing.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 79 in the English and page 78 in
12 the B/C/S, and that should be the next tab for you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's also from this diary?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. And what I want to direct your attention to is the entry by
16 Milorad Trbic. Do you know who Milorad Trbic was of the Zvornik Brigade?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. All right. He writes down that at:
19 "0855, Golic asked Popovic to call him, and said that he can
20 forget what he'd asked for and what he wrote about. He knows what he's
21 supposed to do according to the agreed procedure (boss from
22 Panorama 01)."
23 Tell us who Panorama 01 is.
24 A. I believe there is a hotel called Panorama, as far as I remember,
25 near Vlasenica.
1 Q. Do you recall the code-name of --
2 A. Now, what "Panorama 01" is, I don't know.
3 Q. Do you recall the code-name of the Main Staff, and "01" being
4 that of the commander, being the relevant code-name at the time?
5 A. That code was usually given to the commander, "01."
6 Q. How about Panorama; do you recall that was the code-name in place
7 in July 1995?
8 A. I don't know. I know there is a Hotel Panorama.
9 Q. All right. We'll refer to the bulk of the other evidence on
10 that. And it says:
11 "Message conveyed to Popovic at 9.10."
12 And then at the bottom of the page, we see:
13 "Beara to call Panorama at 155."
14 Do you remember whose extension 155 was at the Crna Rijeka
15 Main Staff?
16 A. I don't know. I can't remember anymore.
17 Q. Would it help you if I said that was Milovanovic's extension that
18 was being used by Miletic at the time and rang in the operations room?
19 A. Yes, operations room, could be.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to English, 85; B/C/S, 84.
21 It should be the next tab in the book and the last entry I'll ask you
23 Q. And we see here, on the 16th of July, that someone called in, and
24 the duty officer, again Trbic, noted down that:
25 "At 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus with a full tank and 500
1 litres of D2."
2 D2 is diesel fuel; correct?
3 A. Yes, yes, diesel.
4 Q. And:
5 "... the Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed."
6 Do you remember which unit Zlatar was the code-name for?
7 A. I don't know. That's an internal code-name within the
8 Drina Corps for some brigades or units, but I don't know these things.
9 Q. Would you recall that that is -- Zlatar was the code-name for the
10 Drina Corps at the time?
11 A. No, I never used it in my communications.
12 Q. You were on duty on the 16th of July, and, sir, there's
13 significant evidence in this case that at this time Popovic was
14 organising the transportation from the Branjevo -- or from this school at
15 Pilica to the Branjevo Farm, where Erdemovic and the 10th Sabotage Unit
16 were summarily executing over a thousand men, and there's documents
17 showing that Popovic received that fuel, going to Pilica. There's
18 evidence in this case, and it shows Golic involved, it shows Popovic
19 involved, it shows Beara involved. And so if we go back to your notation
20 at 14 July, where you are telling Beara and Drago to report to Golic,
21 this suggests you are involved, sir.
22 Having looked at all this material, tell us --
23 A. No, I just received a message about which I knew nothing. I
24 don't know who it came from. It could have come from -- I don't remember
25 now from whom it was received. It must have been during lunchtime, when
1 there was no one around, when I was in the dining hall alone. And during
2 meal times, Warrant Officer Nedeljkovic and both of my IT men, they all
3 went out for lunch, and I was the only one who stayed there. And it was
4 the only time that message could have come, and I forwarded it. I did
5 not pass on other messages. That would normally have been done by Mamlic
6 or someone else.
7 Q. You were in Nova Kasaba on the 13th. You were with Mladic on the
8 13th. You were at Crna Rijeka on the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th
9 and the 17th; correct?
10 A. Yes, yes, yes. On the 14th, I also went to see a doctor, and on
11 the 17th as well, and came back.
12 Q. What was General Tolimir's nickname?
13 A. Nickname? Apart from "Zdravko" and "Tolimir," I believe the
14 commander called him "Tolja." I don't know of any other nicknames.
15 Q. We heard over and over here that some people were able to call
16 him "Toso."
17 A. Yes, right. "Toso" is short for "Tolimir," but that nickname
18 would have been used by the commander and the superior officers --
19 Q. And Miletic, was he sometimes called "Mico"?
20 A. General Milovanovic called him "Mico," as far as I heard. I
21 never called him "Mico."
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Let's go to P394. 394B, please.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast because it's under
24 seal, I'm informed.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Now, this will come up on the screen, but I can set the scene.
2 This is one of these intercepts from the Bosnian Army. This is
3 dated 16 July at 10 hours. This was the day that the
4 10th Sabotage Detachment was murdering people at the Branjevo Farm, and
5 the participants are noted as Mico and Toso. And Toso says:
6 "I sent you, you know what, over there via Uran, and you send it
7 to me via Uran, because this one is not secure."
8 Do you remember what "Uran" stood for back then?
9 A. I don't know. It's the first I hear of it, Uran. It must be
10 that certain code-names were assigned during the operation, and I'm
11 telling you, I never participated either in the planning or any of the
12 tasks, nor did I have any of these code-names or call-names or
13 call-signs. I didn't know what they meant. It's a code-name for
14 something. Now, for what, I don't know.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
16 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe we have a
17 little problem with the electronic courtroom, because the versions in
18 English and the Serbian are not consistent. It's a completely different
19 intercept, as far as I can see.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, check that, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. As we remember the nature of these
23 reports, we have to go --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see "Mico" and "Toso."
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Microphone not activated]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I see it.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
3 Q. Now, if this is between Miletic and Tolimir, and we have a
4 document which I may be able to show later, if not, that is -- like you
5 say, is the attack plan for Srebrenica, and it says "Uran" is the
6 code-name for the Drina Corps forward command post, which on the 16th was
7 at a place called Krivace, do you remember that?
8 A. Near Krivace? No.
9 Q. You don't remember the Drina Corps forward command post for the
10 Zepa attack?
11 A. No, I've never been there and I don't know where their command
12 post was.
13 Q. Okay. Maybe you can help us. When Tolimir says:
14 "Send it to me via Uran, via the Drina Corps Command IKM, because
15 this one is not secure," what's he referring to? What isn't secure?
16 A. Maybe he meant that the line was not secure, that it's an open
17 communication, probably a radio-relay one.
18 Q. All right. And then Miletic says, if "Mico" is Miletic:
19 "All right."
20 And then Tolimir says:
21 "And tell Pepo."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know who that would have been?
24 A. That's me.
25 Q. And then M says: "Yes.
1 Toso says:
2 "If, that I received what he sent me, and if he wants to send me
3 something, he can call Uran on the same line that you are communicating
4 with Uran, and he can relay the telegram for me through it, and you know
5 my call sign."
6 And M says:
7 "Uh-huh, okay. Did Uran asked you over this, I mean that line
8 regarding some information check?"
9 And then Toso says: "About?"
10 And they go on a bit. I won't read all of it. And then Tolimir
12 "He was supposed to send them this morning. He received it 20
13 minutes ago."
14 M says:
15 "I'm going to call him and check why he didn't send it yet."
16 Tolimir says:
17 "Call him, and tell Pepo and my" something, "that they can send
18 me telegrams this way and I can send it to them."
19 And then they say: "Good."
21 And then the operator hears:
22 "Five minutes later, Mico called Jevdo on this frequency ... and
23 asked about two telegrams he was supposed to forward him."
24 They agreed that Jevdo was going to send them immediately. So
25 this is involving you sending secure information to Tolimir, isn't it, on
1 the 16th of July?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a moment ago this
6 record -- this document was not read correctly. It says "Pepo and my" or
7 "their people," because if I say, Tell Pepo and these men of his, it
8 should be read correctly for the record. I would like to see the page
9 back again.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we should have the page back.
11 We see in the English translation that there was a doubt. If the
12 interpreters could read and interpret it in the correct way, and,
13 therefore, I think Mr. McCloskey left this word out.
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says "those men of mine."
16 Why don't you tell them, Aleksandar? You know English.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the general is correct. The interpreter
19 thought it might have said "men." But they know their own expressions
20 better than our interpreters do, so I'll take their word for it.
21 Q. Now, "Jevdo" on this second page, did you know the Drina Corps
22 coms fellow Jevdjevic?
23 A. Just a moment. Let me see. Oh, Jevdjo, Jevdjo. I don't know
24 who that is. Maybe Jevdjevic. I don't know who he was referring to.
25 Was there anyone else with a similar nickname? This is most probably an
1 abbreviated surname, maybe also first name. It may have been Jevdjevic.
2 Q. And who was Jevdjevic?
3 A. Communications man.
4 Q. For who?
5 A. He was a communications officer. He was part of the
6 Communications Regiment of the Main Staff.
7 Q. Okay. So you've had a chance to look at this, and you've told us
8 what it's about.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us any more about what -- what kind of information
11 were you passing on to General Tolimir?
12 A. I would not be able to tell you, with any degree of certainty,
13 what it was about. It must have been something about the reasons why I
14 came to see General Mladic. It could have been only that that I could
15 convey. And I remember having been told that any communications with him
16 should go via the Rogatica Brigade, and this shows that it must have been
17 done via some other location, maybe the forward command post, but I
18 cannot say this with any degree of certainty. A telegram was sent,
19 because he didn't even know that I was there before that moment.
20 Q. So do you stand by that this is an authentic intercept?
21 A. Well, I cannot say for certain, yes, this is authentic, but it
22 seems logical. This kind of conversation seems logical, but I cannot
23 claim that. I wasn't the one intercepting the conversation, you see.
24 Q. It's logical for the chief of intel and security to be
25 communicating with his chief of intel and telling him how to best get
1 confidential information to him? Nothing unusual about that, I take it.
2 A. No, there would be no reason for that. If this would be -- go
3 along a certain line, and if he knew what the nods were -- I guess if he
4 knew that this was an open line, he was just warning that documents
5 should not be sent that way, but via the forward command post instead.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I have one more document that's on
7 this same subject, and then I'll be through, Mr. President. So I don't
8 know if people can go another couple of minutes, or I can do it after --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We're already beyond the six hours. How many
10 minutes do you need with this document?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should just be a couple, just a few. It's
12 just --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Shall we finish with that before the break?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would like to, if we could.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It could speed up the proceedings.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. Could we have 65 ter -- 65 ter 4052, D49.
17 Thank you to that.
18 Q. And, sir, this is -- all we have is a handwritten document, and
19 it's -- as we can see, it's from the Command of the Drina Corps, the
20 forward command post at Krivace. This is the next day from the
21 intercept. It's 17 July, and it's entitled "A radio conversation with
22 Avdo Palic," and it's under the name of Zdravko Tolimir.
23 Do you recognise the handwriting at all? --
24 A. No. No, this handwriting --
25 Q. So we see here that -- does it appear to you that General Tolimir
1 is communicating from the forward command post at Krivace, or at least
2 he's sending his communications out from that area?
3 A. The command -- yes, it says here "the Command of the Drina Corps,
4 Forward Command Post Krivace."
5 Q. So do you agree that this appears that he would be sending his
6 communications out from that -- on this day, anyway, he would send out
7 this information from Krivace?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Colonel.
10 I have nothing further, Mr. President.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, this was sent, yes.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 We must have the second break now.
14 Mr. Gajic, before we break, you have the floor.
15 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, here in the
16 transcript, on page 68, line 3, "65 ter 4052, D49," D49 is a completely
17 different document.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is confirmed by the Registrar. But in the
19 list of documents we received from the Prosecution, the last update, it
20 is said that this should be the same one. I propose this should be
21 checked during the break.
22 Thank you very much. We adjourn, and resume at 20 minutes past
24 --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 6.23 p.m.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, before we adjourned, we had a
2 discussion about a number of a certain document. I was told that a
3 mistake occurred in that respect. Could you clarify that for the record?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It should have been
5 65 ter 4052, and it's not D -- ignore the "D." It should be 65 ter 4052,
6 so I guess it needs a number.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And did you tender it?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Apparently, I didn't, and I should.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, it will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P2207, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Now it's the turn of Mr. Tolimir to put questions to you, sir,
13 during his cross-examination.
14 Mr. Tolimir, I have noted that your estimate for
15 cross-examination of this witness is eight hours. The Prosecution has
16 used a little bit more than six hours.
17 You will recall that our fellow Judge, Judge Mindua, referred you
18 to the practice of other Chambers with respect to the use of time to be
19 used for cross-examination. That was on the 14th of April. It's on
20 page 12789 of the transcript. As you will recall, Judge Mindua gave a
21 short overview of the way other Chambers deal with this issue in this
23 In most cases, the time for examination-in-chief and for
24 cross-examination of viva voce witnesses has been kept in balance.
25 Therefore, I would like to remind you, Mr. Tolimir, that while we will
1 not limit your cross-examination from the outset, as this is a very
2 relevant witness, we will, however, pay close attention to whether you
3 use your time with this witness efficiently by focusing on only relevant
4 issues related to the charges against you. Please keep that in mind.
5 Now you may commence your cross-examination.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Once again, I want to greet everyone in the courtroom, including
8 Mr. Salapura. I would like to thank him for coming here. I'm pleased to
9 see him, and I would like to ask him for a favour.
10 After I have said something, he should check the screen, and when
11 he sees that everything is entered, then, and only then, start answering,
12 because otherwise we'd be overlapping and it will not be reflected in the
13 transcript. And it's very important to have everything recorded in the
14 transcript. So at the end of my question, I will say, Thank you. Then
15 you wait for a few seconds, and then provide your answer. Thank you.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
17 Q. [Interpretation] So, please, Mr. Salapura, the Prosecutor was
18 asking you about Uran. On page 67, line 10, the Prosecutor asked you
19 whether it was logical for Tolimir to be asking his subordinates not to
20 send telegrams via open line, and you said, Yes. Now, tell me, was there
21 anything in the telegrams that can be described as criminal or do they
22 have, as their contents, only elements that refer to combat activities?
23 A. The telegrams that we were receiving? Are you referring to those
24 telegrams that we were receiving during the period when I was there at
25 the command post?
1 Q. Thank you. I was referring to telegrams that I was sending to
2 you or the ones you were sending to me via this station, Uran, that's at
3 the Command of the Drina Corps and which I would get in touch with, and
4 you can tell us whether the forward command post of the Drina Corps,
5 whether they could have a protected communication channel with
6 Main Staff?
7 A. I don't think there were many such telegrams; maybe one or two
8 only that were received at the command post and that you had sent. As
9 far as I remember, they were sent very seldom. From me, I think only one
10 telegram was sent to you, and it involved a summary of the information I
11 had presented to the commander so that you would also be made aware about
12 the Croatian offensive against the VRS. And it is normal -- it's
13 obligatory to use protected communication. That was a rule whenever
14 there was combat activity going on, if possible. If it was not possible,
15 we would be normally using a TKT code book for the purpose of protecting
16 information for the short period of the duration of combat activities.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salapura. Since you were absent, on sick leave,
18 during that period, tell me, do you know whether there was a phone line
19 that had a code-name, Uran, and which could be used by the corps
20 commander to send open messages, verbal messages, and then communication
21 would send those to the addressee, and in such a way the communications
22 would be protected?
23 A. I cannot remember this code-name Uran.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you have any memory concerning a phone that can
25 receive a verbal message, and then that the operator who's there could
1 type this as a -- into a written message and then forward it to the
2 addressee? Thank you.
3 A. Yes, that was possible. You know well that we had two phones
4 which also had operators/encoders, and they would scramble the direct
5 open type of information and send it encoded. We had those as part of
6 our service.
7 Q. Thank you. Our sector, our administration, could we request for
8 such protection in relation to conversations which, as its topic, had
9 date on units and activities?
10 A. Most of our information was encoded, was protected.
11 Q. Thank you. In this telegram, it is stated:
12 "Mico, tell Pepo and my people."
13 In a conversation, when you say "Pepo," does that also involve
14 the institution that Pepo is at the head of?
15 A. I did not say this to the Prosecutor, but that was the practice
16 that you were using. I wasn't sure about that, but thank you for opening
17 this topic. For instance, in the telegram, when it is stated that
18 somebody should go and talk to Pajo or report to Pajo, that does not
19 necessarily mean to Pajo, himself, but to his location in Vlasenica. Or
20 when you say, "Cedo," that may mean just something that helps you with
21 the location because that person is at that location. So this wasn't
22 necessarily something that referred to myself, personally, but to the
23 administration. That was the practice that you were using. That wasn't
24 my practice. I had different practices in that respect, but --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It may be a translation issue, but they're both
2 now referring to what was an intercept as a telegram, and there's no
3 reference to the 65 ter number. So if we don't correct that, it's going
4 to lead to a problem in the record, because I know they're talking about
5 the intercept that we just talked about with Pepo and Mico.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you clarify that with the
7 witness? Are you referring to an intercept?
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Salapura, you were shown a text of an intercept. I don't
10 know anything about it, of course. And in that intercept, there is a
11 quotation of my words to Mico. Apparently, I said, Tell Pepo to ... and
12 so on. Does that "Pepo" necessarily refer to the person or it can also
13 refer to the location?
14 A. Well, it was obviously something that involved an open telephone
15 or radio communication channel, and you were referring to the
16 administration. And I'm saying this on the basis of your custom of the
17 way -- how you expressed yourself throughout the war.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Salapura.
19 I would like to have P2206 on the screen. It's the document
20 that's dated 16th of January, 1996.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this is coming up, I would like to make a
22 correction for the record. It was recorded wrongly in page 51, line 9.
23 It should read "65 ter 7360," instead of "7360" [sic].
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Tolimir, please.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Salapura, the Prosecutor --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment, please. It's wrongly recorded
3 again. I said: "'65 ter 7360' instead of '3760.'" Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Salapura, you can see the document that was shown to you also
7 by the Prosecutor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You know the content, so this is my question: In this document,
10 were you trying to cover up or hide anything from the law enforcement
11 organs or were you trying to make sure that people know that they were
12 under surveillance, maybe?
13 A. No, no. The problem -- based on the date, 16th of January, I can
14 now say here in this courtroom that since maybe 2001, certain problems
15 with remembering numbers and dates, I was thinking about the 16th, and in
16 my head it's turned into March. I had a mild stroke, and I am having
17 problems because of that. And whenever people are asking me about dates
18 and times, in other words, information, including numbers, I'm having
19 problems. But, yes, this telegram was sent openly to the Ministry of the
20 Interior, but I believed -- I thought it was not sent there. I insisted
21 that it should be sent directly to Bijeljina. However, it seems that
22 they sent it to the Ministry of the Interior. They sent an official
23 request. This was not sent for the purpose of hiding anything. It had a
24 completely different purpose.
25 These soldiers, one of them was a Muslim, the others were Croats,
1 some of them. There were some Serbs as well, but I don't know how many.
2 The total number is eight, as we can see here.
3 I really believed this was something that happened at a later
4 date, but now I can see the date, and I really thought about it for a
5 long time. This was sent because the persons in question had residence
6 in Bijeljina. People from Bijeljina didn't know them because they were
7 not from Bijeljina. And while all this was going on, the idea was to
8 make sure that they do not get exposed to problems that maybe their
9 neighbours would cause or something like that. It was easy to find them
10 later on. Journalists found them very soon.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us if you were entrusted by the
12 commander of the Main Staff to secure personal ID cards for persons who
13 were in the units, the reconnaissance and sabotage units, with other
14 names when they are going to alien territory, to provide them with names,
15 and that you had addressed the Ministry of Interior several times on this
17 A. Yes, they did have a task to issue us with ID documents, but
18 I think that this is not such a case. I think that this was issued for a
19 different purpose.
20 Q. Thank you. This is why I asked you. Was any crime concealed
21 here? Did you provide their actual names when you sought out the names
22 for them?
23 A. Yes, their actual names and particulars were provided. Secondly,
24 when they were going to execute a task, then they would receive a
25 completely different type of identification documents.
1 Q. Thank you. Was this immediately after the signing of the
2 Dayton Accords, before even the 120 days had passed, which was the
3 dead-line for the separation of the forces after the signing of the
4 agreement? Thank you.
5 A. Well, I don't know exactly when the 120 days were expiring. The
6 Dayton Accords were signed in November; is that right? Right. Well, I
7 don't know whether that was 120 days or not. Evidently, it wasn't. It
8 wasn't yet six months.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salapura. You were asked here a number of times
10 if you had sent personal letters to the minister of foreign affairs, in
11 the same way that you have here addressed the minister of the interior.
12 Can you please answer this question: Were you authorised by the
13 commander and by the president of the republic to provide information of
14 interest for the negotiations on the Contact Group to the foreign
15 minister, who was the chief of that delegation that was in charge of
16 contacts with international representatives who were mediating in the
17 drafting of a peace agreement?
18 A. Yes. I didn't explain that. I felt that there was no need to
19 explain that, because I don't see anything controversial there. I did
20 have that authority, because my sector was dealing not only with the
21 gathering of military intelligence, but also of political intelligence,
22 diplomatic and other types of intelligence or data, so that spectre was
23 also there -- that spectrum was also there. So there were tasks which
24 were not of interest either to the commander of the Main Staff or to the
25 chief of the sector, but which were exclusively of interest to the
1 ministers of foreign affairs, or the interior, or some other ministry.
2 We acquired information that could be of interest to the Ministry of
3 Trade, or some other ministries, or for the president of
4 Republika Srpska. So I was able to provide such information directly,
5 and I did. And this was received by the chief of the sector,
6 Mr. Tolimir, and it was also received by the commander if it was of
7 interest to him.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salapura. You were asked here about whether you
9 interrogated prisoners of war that you saw on the playground? Thank you.
10 A. I never interrogated a single prisoner of war throughout the
11 entire war. I myself, personally, I never did that.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 I would now like to have 00672 shown to the witness now. This is
14 intelligence support to the armed forces. This is a rule from 1987.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And while we're waiting for this rule to appear on the screen,
17 can you please tell us this: In the Army of Republika Srpska, did we use
18 the rules from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Thank you.
19 A. Yes, because we didn't have rules of our own. It wasn't only us
20 who used it. The others used it too; the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina;
21 the Croatian Army, too, until they drafted their own rules.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now show page 67 of the
23 document now, please, so that we can see the section that pertains to
24 prisoners of wars. This is Article 198, page 67.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no 198. There is 158.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 198, the interrogation of prisoners
2 of war.
3 Can the e-court please show --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that's not on page 67.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I apologise. It's on page 74.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which page in English, Mr. Tolimir?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 59 in the English. Thank
9 you, Mr. President.
10 Thank you. And we are now looking at the paragraph 198, which
12 "Intelligence organs in commands and staff question prisoners of
13 war and defectors for the purpose of gathering intelligence, through
14 organs of certain specialty that are set up especially for that purpose."
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. My question is: If the Drina Corps were to capture or have
17 prisoners and defectors, would the Main Staff then have to interrogate
18 them, or somebody from the Main Staff, or would this be done by the organ
19 that had captured them and in whose corps they happened to be, or would
20 this be done by the intelligence organ of the relevant corps? Thank you.
21 A. This would, of course, be done by the intelligence organ of the
22 corps, starting from the level of battalion up, depending on the
23 importance of the person and the data that that person would be able to
24 offer. Perhaps the security organ would also participate if they felt
25 that it was an interrogation of interest, or some other organ, perhaps if
1 it was a question of the police or some kind of special service or
2 logistics, if it was believed that the person had intelligence data that
3 was relevant for those services. Only exceptionally would somebody
4 participate from the Main Staff. I actually never interrogated anyone.
5 Q. Thank you. And since we are looking at this rule, the
6 intelligence support for the armed forces, and in view of the fact that
7 you were the most qualified and the most highly-trained person to be able
8 to interpret these documents and rules, I would kindly ask you to tell
9 the Trial Chamber what is intelligence support of the armed forces. What
10 does that term mean?
11 And until then, can we look at page 12, please. This is page 9
12 in the English. Thank you, Aleksandar.
13 We're now looking at paragraph 2 or Article 2 of the general
14 provisions, and it states:
15 "Intelligence support in the armed forces is a part of the
16 overall measures, procedures and activities aimed at preparing the
17 society for all people's defence and social self-protection ..."
18 And so on and so forth.
19 My question is: All our actions and activities, were they all a
20 part of those overall general measures undertaken by a society, such as
21 Republika Srpska, and the Army of Republika Srpska, or its armed
22 organisation, in order to provide support for the armed forces? Are they
23 just measures and actions and activities?
24 A. Well, I've already described what intelligence support means when
25 the Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, asked me to describe my work, and I
1 actually did refer to the elements precisely from this Article 2. Yes,
2 of course. And what you're asking also is right. It means the
3 collection of all kinds of information about the enemy, combat actions,
4 the terrain, everything in the area on the other side of the front-line,
5 and, of course, the overall measures and information that is of general
6 interest for the society, for the state, or Republika Srpska
7 specifically, that we had from all the other spheres that could possibly
8 provide certain input and would be conducive to completing the war and
9 implementing the goals and achieving successes.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salapura. Can you please tell us whether
11 intelligence support is part of the command staff function, primarily?
12 A. Yes, absolutely.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
14 Let us now look at -- I deliberately did not want to go into
15 this, but let us look at Article 4 which states that -- can we please
16 scroll this up so you can see Article 4. This is the following page in
17 the English and the last page in the Serbian.
18 It states:
19 "Intelligence support is part of the command and staff function.
20 The content of intelligence support is a constant process, whose
21 intensity varies and which includes the following ..."
22 And now they list, on the following pages, what all of that
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. My question is this: Did the staffs and commands exclusively
1 operate pursuant to the rules as they are described in this article of
2 the rules for the intelligence support of the armed forces?
3 A. Yes, in some places, these rules were adhered to. In some
4 places, not, because in some organs, for example, the
5 Sarajevo Romanija Corps, we didn't have the full strength, so these
6 duties were unassigned. For example, sometimes we would assign a certain
7 section or person to be carrying out this intelligence function.
8 Q. Thank you. Please, you were asked by the Prosecutor, in the
9 summary, when you saw Tolimir, and you said, We were together at a
10 seminar in Knin. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber now if we belong
11 to the same military organisation at that time and the same military
12 district, you and I?
13 A. Up until then, we did not. But after that time -- actually,
14 immediately prior to that seminar, yes, we did. Before that, we did not.
15 You were in part of the military naval district VPO, and this was in
16 Croatia. You were part of the VPO, and then towards the end -- at the
17 end, yes, yes, and when the negotiations were over, then this division
18 became part of the 5th Military District at the time.
19 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that then, when we saw each other,
20 both of us were in different military districts -- we were both in the
21 2nd Military District?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, we were both in
24 the 2nd military district.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. In his summary, the Prosecutor asked you whether you had in
2 Vukovar, and you said, No, I was in Zagreb, and I was performing such and
3 such duties. Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Can you now, please, please, tell the Trial Chamber where Vukovar
6 and Zagreb were separate military districts, and could you have had any
7 powers at all in Vukovar, and the other way around, could anyone from
8 Vukovar have any powers in relation to units of the 5th Corps which were
9 in Zagreb? Thank you.
10 A. No, absolutely not. Vukovar was in the 1st Military District,
11 the Belgrade Military District, and the 5th Military District could not
12 have any powers there. The border was just like the state border, and it
13 applied in context -- in the context of any military activities.
14 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us when and why you had to be
15 transferred, with your command, to Sarajevo from the
16 Zagreb 5th Military District? Thank you.
17 A. First of all, the command was blocked, the one in Zagreb, and for
18 a long time it was completely isolated, with all of its communications
19 cut off. And every evening, there was firing at that facility, at the
20 building, by the Croatian forces and the MUP and the ZNG, so we were
21 constantly exposed to fire. Then an agreement was reached about pulling
22 the men out of Zagreb, and this was carried out from Slunj. This was
23 already the end of the war in Croatia, when an agreement was already
24 reached on a truce, and then the command was transferred from there to
25 Kosara. And this is where it was renamed as the 2nd Military District.
1 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are at the end of today's
3 hearing. We should continue tomorrow.
4 But tell me, are you going to use this document we have on the
5 screen during your further cross-examination?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. I was just about
7 to ask what the area of responsibility is, as described in Article 5,
8 that was under the jurisdiction of Mr. Salapura, to tell us about that
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that the intelligence
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, briefly, if I may be allowed,
14 I can answer that question.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have already indicated we have to adjourn for
16 the day.
17 I just want to know if you're tendering this document now or if
18 you are going to use it tomorrow any further.
19 Okay, I see you are nodding. We don't have to discuss anything
21 We adjourn for the day.
22 I have to remind you, sir, that you are not permitted to have
23 conversation about the content of your testimony with either party during
24 the break.
25 We adjourn, and resume tomorrow, in the afternoon, in
1 Courtroom II, I think, at 2.15. We adjourn.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of May,
5 2011, at 2.15 p.m.