Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13932

 1                           Wednesday, 11 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Before we continue with the current witness, the Chamber would

 7     like to address the parties on the matter related to the length of the

 8     whole trial.

 9             We have now heard the testimony of more than 100 oral witnesses,

10     and we are nearing the end of the Prosecution case.  This is a very long

11     trial, and it is the task of the Chamber to ensure that it is fair and

12     expeditious.  The Chamber also needs to plan future proceedings as far as

13     possible.  This is particularly important given the size of the trial.

14             First of all, the Chamber would like to thank both parties for

15     moving ahead in a generally co-operative spirit during the period of more

16     than one year and three months that has so far elapsed since the trial

17     began.  This has certainly been conducive to the expeditious conduct of

18     the proceedings.

19             The Chamber would also like to recall the efforts that it has

20     made to ensure that the Prosecution case is not unduly long and the

21     assistance that it has received from the Prosecution in this regard.

22             On 29 November last year, the Chamber indicated that it

23     considered that the Prosecution case could be completed before the summer

24     recess of 2011.  Subsequently, at the request of the Chamber, the

25     Prosecution reviewed its list of oral witnesses and, as a result, made

Page 13933

 1     changes which made its case shorter than it otherwise would have been.

 2     On the 30th of January and 13th of March, 2011, the Prosecution presented

 3     schedules of future witnesses which would allow its case to be completed

 4     before the summer recess.

 5             The Chamber again thanks the Prosecution for the measures that it

 6     has taken to streamline its case.  We are now closer to the conclusion of

 7     the Prosecution case, and an enormous amount of evidence has been

 8     received.  The Chamber still believes that it is possible for the

 9     Prosecution case to be completed by the 22nd of July, 2011, which is the

10     last day before the summer recess, but this will very probably require

11     further streamlining on the part of the Prosecution.

12             The Chamber stresses that it is for the Prosecution to decide

13     which witnesses to call and how their evidence should be presented in a

14     manner consistent with the Statute and the Rules.  But in the interests

15     of an expeditious trial, the Chamber invites the Prosecution to review

16     the witnesses it is intending to call, in light of the mass of testimony

17     that it has already presented, and to consider ways of ensuring that its

18     case does not last any longer than necessary, and that it will use court

19     time in the most efficient way possible; for example, by exploring the

20     possibility of not calling certain witnesses.

21             The Chamber takes the opportunity to invite both parties to

22     consider the appropriate length of their respective examination of the

23     remaining witnesses.  This will also have an impact on the length of the

24     trial.

25             Mr. McCloskey, do you wish to make any observations on the matter

Page 13934

 1     that I have raised, at the moment or at a later stage?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Mr. President,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             This topic is, of course, one that is of great importance to all

 5     of us, and the Prosecution especially, since as it being our last trial,

 6     we're planning our lives post-Tribunal.  So, in fact, I know Mr. Thayer

 7     wanted to tell you this himself, but he has found it necessary to go back

 8     to the United States and put his kids in school for September, so his

 9     last time here will be up until the recess, July 22nd.  And he has to get

10     back to his original job which they've held open for him up until about

11     that time, is my understanding.  So we are trying very hard, for many

12     reasons, as well as your encouragement, to finish up our case before the

13     summer recess, including that Mr. Thayer is such a crucial member of the

14     team in that regard, and the organisation, and the co-ordination of

15     witnesses and material.  So from that aspect, we have every motivation to

16     do this.

17             And I can tell you that we have now heard from many of the

18     significant Main Staff witnesses, or almost finished with them.  We never

19     quite know, as you are aware, if they'll even show up, if people will

20     even show up or be able to show up.  We now have remaining

21     General Milovanovic, who is scheduled to be here this weekend to testify

22     next week.  I don't think I'm going to take the time that we have

23     allotted.  I really hope I'm not.  I don't want to be up there that long.

24     And, frankly, we've heard many of the rules and the regulations and the

25     processes and the personalities that are so important for a case like

Page 13935

 1     this from some of these other witnesses in a credible way, so I'm hoping

 2     to be able to streamline that testimony so it has more meaning for all of

 3     us.

 4             Then the next -- the big witness, Mr. Butler, who always

 5     testifies, and he is our witness that will talk about documents, and

 6     intercepts, and areas that may not have been gone into fully, he's

 7     scheduled for I believe it's early June, which is on schedule.  He's

 8     able, as far as I know, to break away from his very busy life in the

 9     United States to come here and testify.  And I am beginning to organise

10     his materials and try to streamline them so that he is hitting areas that

11     you have not heard over and over again and so that fits into the

12     presentation of the case.

13             The other witnesses, while important, are not lengthy, as far as

14     I recall, and have various important aspects of them.  I think we'll

15     probably get back into doing some more 92 ter and that kind of thing.

16     But from the schedule I've looked at, and discussions with Mr. Thayer,

17     who's back at home organising his personal matters, it looks like we're

18     on schedule to finish our case by July.  And the question we were asking

19     ourselves and beginning to discuss briefly with Mr. Gajic is the next

20     step, will there be a challenge, a 98 bis challenge.  Mr. Gajic says

21     there will be, so we will need to be prepared to provide oral submissions

22     in that matter.  And so we're, of course, thinking about when that might

23     happen in relation to the ending of our case.  So we're very hopeful that

24     we're going to finish by July 22nd.

25             There's a couple of key areas that have popped up where

Page 13936

 1     witnesses -- where a short witness may really help fill a subject matter

 2     for you that's important for the case, so you may see a motion for adding

 3     a short witness, or 92 bis, or 92 ter witness, very short, but to fill

 4     something that has come up that we think we need to fill.  And, of

 5     course, we'll provide all the justification for that.

 6             Ms. Stewart reminds me of one other witness, PW-057, who is

 7     another witness that sometimes takes a bit of time, but I don't think he

 8     will take too much time this time around.  And he is ready to testify as

 9     scheduled, which was also in June.

10             So these -- we have, of course, Mr. Petrovic out there, we have

11     the witness that we just lost yesterday.  There's going to be some odds

12     and ends, but we're hopeful we're going to be able to finish our case by

13     the break.

14             And when Mr. Thayer gets back - he gets back Thursday - he and I

15     will sit down on Friday and do like what we do, send you out any revised

16     schedule to see where we're ending.  But if anything, and maybe I'm being

17     too hopeful, it may be before July 22nd, but I think certainly we're on

18     track for ending our case by July 22nd.  And we'll keep everyone informed

19     if there's any changes in any of these more lengthy or critical

20     witnesses.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, thank you for this explanation, and

22     this is very helpful for our purposes.

23             You just indicated that you will consult with Mr. Thayer after

24     his return.  Perhaps it would be a good idea that you come back to the

25     Chamber and the other party to give us a more specific estimation of the

Page 13937

 1     remainder of the Prosecution case after this looking into the details a

 2     little more specifically and after consultation with Mr. Thayer.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just something I forgot to add, and I won't

 5     spend long.

 6             But I can tell you, Mr. President, we have appreciated very much

 7     the freedom that you've allowed all of us, in terms of time and witnesses

 8     and all.  I can tell you, personally, I'm exhausted at this point.  And I

 9     have a good, strong team, but -- and I think my health has suffered as a

10     result.  I don't know why -- this is the first time I've been sick in

11     this Tribunal.  In any event, so we're -- and I've spoken to Mr. Gajic.

12     He acknowledges that they're also, of course, feeling the strains of

13     constant trial.  And we always need to get ready on the weekend so we can

14     be ready on Monday, because that's when we start, so just as we schedule

15     and as you schedule, please take that into consideration.  And, again, we

16     appreciate how much you have in the past and how well you've run this

17     case.  We appreciate that.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

19             Now I should like to move to matters on which the Defence may

20     be -- Mr. Gajic, perhaps you may rise at a later stage.  Is it possible

21     or is there a specific need to address something now?

22             Mr. Gajic.

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just briefly.

24             The Defence is striving to try to improve the efficiency of the

25     proceedings and not to waste time.  I hope we have managed to fulfill the

Page 13938

 1     expectations of the Chamber, both in terms of efficiency --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, perhaps it's a little bit premature

 3     that you raise this at the moment.  First, I would like to address the

 4     Defence with our questions, and then you may respond to that.  That would

 5     be very helpful.

 6             We would like to move to matters on which the Defence may be in a

 7     position to give guidance to the Trial Chamber.

 8             I should like to raise the procedure pursuant to Rule 98 bis of

 9     our Rules of Procedure and Evidence and the Defence case.

10             Mr. Tolimir, let me stress that you are not obliged at this stage

11     to give any indication as to whether you will be making submissions for

12     the entry of a judgement of acquittal on any of the counts in the

13     indictment pursuant to Rule 98 bis; nor are you obliged to say anything

14     yet about your Defence case.  However, as I mentioned earlier, this is a

15     very lengthy trial, and if you are able to provide any guidance on either

16     or both of these two matters, it may assist in the planning of the future

17     of the case.

18             Mr. Tolimir, are you able to say now whether you will be making

19     any submissions in the 98 bis procedure or whether you can give us any

20     indication of the number of witnesses you are intending to call in the

21     Defence case?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             For the time being, we cannot inform you about the number of the

24     witnesses and the duration of their examination.  And as we've heard from

25     Mr. McCloskey, we will only submit regular motions that are part of the

Page 13939

 1     normal proceedings.  That would be all I can say at this moment.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey indicated that you were in

 4     consultation with the Prosecution, and the Prosecution with the Defence,

 5     about a possible 98 bis submission.

 6             Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, it is an informal

 8     discussion between us and, I believe, a normal procedure before this

 9     Tribunal.  And, of course, yes, we are considering this possibility.

10     Most probably, we will submit a 98 bis motion after the close of the

11     Prosecutor's case.

12             As for the number of witnesses, we cannot provide you any

13     information.  We still have proceedings ahead.  As you have noted, most

14     of the crucial witnesses are appearing now in the last stage of the OTP

15     case.  And on the basis of that, the Defence will make its decision about

16     the number of witnesses, the length of their examination, we will focus

17     on Bar Table motions or bring viva voce witnesses.  All these are matters

18     that we are considering at the moment.

19             And, additionally, Mr. McCloskey also mentioned strain that we're

20     experiencing.  We're a small team.  We don't have any weekends.  We're

21     working at full steam.  We don't even know what it means to have

22     weekends.  We don't know about holidays or anything else.  We are

23     completely focused on completing this case as soon as possible.

24             Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.

Page 13940

 1             The Chamber would appreciate if you could update us, at the

 2     specific time when you have reached such a conclusion, to be able to plan

 3     the remainder of this case.

 4             Thank you for this exchange of views.

 5             We should continue with the witness.  He should be brought in,

 6     please.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           WITNESS:  Dragomir Keserovic [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.  Please sit down, sir.

11             Good afternoon, and welcome back to the courtroom.

12             Mr. Keserovic, I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell

13     the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

14             Mr. McCloskey is continuing his examination-in-chief.

15             Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

18        Q.   Good afternoon, General.

19        A.   Good afternoon.

20        Q.   We left off yesterday where you had returned to the bunker at the

21     command post of Crna Rijeka, and shortly after returning sometime that

22     evening, General Mladic gave you an order.  And you were describing to us

23     that order, and I think we left off with you describing some of the units

24     that you were to command pursuant to that order.

25             And can you tell us, did you at some point, after receiving that

Page 13941

 1     oral order, have you seen a written order reflecting that oral order?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And at some time in the more distant future after these events,

 4     have you seen an order either in an interview or in one of these court

 5     proceedings?

 6        A.   I have seen it for the first time when Mr. Ruez showed it to me

 7     in 2000 during an interview.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  If we could take a look at that.

 9     P126.

10        Q.   You didn't -- you didn't bring your documents and your materials

11     today, General?

12        A.   No, I didn't.  I - to put it in this way - got the hint and

13     realised that it wasn't necessary to bring anything along.

14        Q.   It's not a problem.  Sometimes it's better to have documents in

15     front of you than have to work with this screen all the time.  But

16     I think I've got most of the documents we've gone over.

17             So can you take a look at this?  And we see that it's from the

18     Main Staff, and it's number 03/4.  I believe you said that Miletic was

19     going to draft an order, is what Mladic told you; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21        Q.   And does this number -- 03/4, do you recall what branch or organ

22     used that number?

23        A.   No, I cannot tell you that.

24        Q.   All right.  Then if we go down, we see that it's to the

25     Drina Corps Command for information, and then to various brigades and the

Page 13942

 1     Communication Regiment.  Is that the Communication Regiment that you had

 2     mentioned yesterday?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.  We see here that it's the

 4     67th Communications Regiment, but, in any case, that was the

 5     communications regiment of the Main Staff.

 6        Q.   All right.  And we see the first two paragraphs have to do with

 7     Zvornik and sending colonels to Zvornik, and you had mentioned that you'd

 8     heard General Mladic issue an order about colonels going to Zvornik.  You

 9     remember that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  I remember him saying that Trkulja, Stankovic and

11     Sladojevic should go to Zvornik.  I only know that he said they should

12     review the situation and assist with matters that involve co-ordination,

13     if necessary.

14        Q.   All right.  Do those first two paragraphs appear to be related to

15     that order you heard Mladic give to others that night?

16        A.   Yes, it's along those lines.

17        Q.   All right.  And let's -- let's focus on paragraph 3.

18             And if we could blow that up for the general, because this has to

19     do -- we can see your name mentioned in the middle of it.

20             As we see this paragraph 3, it states that:

21             "At 17 July, the forces of the 1st Bratunac, 1st Milici, the

22     67th Communication, the Military Police Battalion, the

23     65th Motorised Protection Regiment and MUP forces are engaged in the

24     wider area of Bratunac, Milici and Drinjaca and will comb the territory

25     in the zone of the Bratunac-Drinjaca-Milici-Besici village, with the aim

Page 13943

 1     of discovering and destroying lagging Muslim groups."

 2             And then we see it says:

 3             "I hereby appoint Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic, the officer for

 4     the military police in the Main Staff of the VRS Security Administration,

 5     as the commander of all the aforementioned forces during the conduct of

 6     the aforementioned task."

 7             Then you get a dead-line, and you're supposed to suggest -- make

 8     a proposal on the 19th about further engagements.

 9             Now, regarding paragraph 3, is that, in your view, related to the

10     oral order you've told us you received from Mladic?

11        A.   Well, the first part of this paragraph relates what

12     General Mladic told me, except I don't remember him mentioning at that

13     time this second part relating to the continuation of the operations

14     towards Cerska.  I don't believe he mentioned it to me.

15        Q.   Okay.  The part you're talking about is that:

16             "An order for further engagement towards Cerska shall be proposed

17     by Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic -- proposed to me by

18     Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic."

19             That's the part you don't recall?

20        A.   Right.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we see the rest of it in English, so

22     Your Honours can just see the next page, so you can see where it's from.

23             And the first page, if we could blow up the first page.

24        Q.   I think this is the date stamp that you talked briefly about when

25     you were talking about not being sure about the 17th or the 18th.

Page 13944

 1             Could we blow up the date stamp.

 2             Okay, we see here that's the 18th of July.

 3             And then we see on the next page, it says "18 February."  I'm not

 4     sure if that's a mistake or just someone thought that "7" was a "2,"

 5     probably, that was translating it.

 6             All right.  And, General, we -- because of this slight -- this

 7     issue about the date, we managed to look through our records, and we

 8     found an original document that appears to have been sent to the

 9     Drina Corps.

10             And if we could get the ELMO going to see if that will help us

11     with the time situation.

12             And I want to give you this -- what we believe is an original

13     document, after everybody has a chance to see it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please go to the first page of this

15     document on the screen at the moment so that we can see the date.

16             There we see it.  See the upper left corner, the 17th of July,

17     1995.  Thank you.

18             It may be given to the witness, which means to put on the ELMO.

19             Obviously, we have a technical problem.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I was told that there's a

22     technical problem with the ELMO, and it will be resolved in a couple of

23     minutes.  But perhaps you proceed first in a different way.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   First of all, General, can you look at this document, and can you

Page 13945

 1     tell us, is it the same order that is the one up on the screen?

 2        A.   This should be the same order, except this order was probably

 3     sent encrypted by teletype and there's a great number of typos.  So it's

 4     not the original document from the Main Staff, but it's one of those

 5     printed by a teletype, because there's a large rectangular stamp saying

 6     "Received/Processed," et cetera.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, the one we have on the computer screen is also a

 8     teletype, and it looks like some kind of a received or processing stamp

 9     from Milici.  So in that regard, they're both received teletyped versions

10     of this order; is that right?

11        A.   Well, seeing how the document is not signed by General Mladic,

12     the one on the screen, it must have also been sent somehow via teletype.

13     I don't -- I can't think of any other reason why it wouldn't be signed.

14        Q.   Okay.  Down in the left corner of this original document, we can

15     see, next to Ratko Mladic's name, "S.R."  Tell us what that means.

16        A.   When a document is submitted to signalsmen to be sent by teletype

17     or other communication, during the hand-over, because the signature

18     cannot be conveyed by teletype, these letters, "S.R.," meaning "In his

19     own hand," are inserted to indicate that the original document was signed

20     by General Mladic.

21        Q.   Okay.  "S.R.," can you just say the Serbian words that "S.R."

22     stands for so I can hear what the Serbian words are?

23        A.   "Svojerucno."

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, thank you.

25             Let's now look at --

Page 13946

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just one moment.  Judge Mindua has a question to

 2     ask you.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, could we see the

 4     previous page again in B/C/S, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means the full page, which is on the screen

 6     now.  Yes, this one.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I wanted to have this page on the

 8     screen.

 9             I see that the date marked here is the 17th of July, 1995.  In

10     the English version, it says:  "Milici, 18th of February, 1995."  We have

11     that entry in the English text.  I believe this is a mistake, unless we

12     are dealing with two different documents.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should see the English version, the first page

14     of the English version, please.

15             This is the translation with the same date, 17th of July, 1995.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think His Honour was referring to the second

17     page, where the stamp, under English, says "February."  And for some

18     reason, the translator appears to have spelled out the month, when

19     clearly the month was not spelled out in the original.  So that is an

20     incorrect way to translate, and I would leave it to the Court to

21     determine -- to me, that looks -- that's a crossed "7," but it could be

22     interpreted as a "2."  I think the explanation is the translation just

23     thought it was a "2."

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I think you are right, it's a

25     mistake.  The "7" has been translated as "February" here, strangely

Page 13947

 1     enough.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'm told ELMO is alive and well now,

 4     so let's try to put this on the screen.  And let's start off with the

 5     right-hand corner and blow up that handwritten material on the right-hand

 6     corner, because we don't have that on the one that's in e-court.

 7        Q.   And, General, looking at that handwritten material in the

 8     right-hand corner, we see "OC" underlined.  What does that usually mean?

 9        A.   "OC" usually means "Operations Centre."

10        Q.   And can you read out to us slowly if you can make out this

11     handwriting under the "OC"?

12        A.   It reads:

13             "Monitor the execution of this task."

14        Q.   Do you recognise any of those initials underneath that section?

15        A.   No, I couldn't say.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And for Your Honours and everyone, this original

17     document was retrieved from the Drina Corps collection, for your

18     information.

19             Now, can we now just go down and see the bottom of the document,

20     the date stamp.

21        Q.   And before I get to the date stamp:  You see that someone has

22     written over in ink in that bottom paragraph.  Can you make out why they

23     would have written over in ink like that?

24        A.   The encryptor who receives a document and finds a lot of typos

25     may add, in his own hand, the correct version, as he understands it.

Page 13948

 1     That's one possibility.  And the second possibility is that when the end

 2     user received this telegram or document, he could, himself, decipher what

 3     was meant and then write that clarification down.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, let's go to this stamp that's at the bottom.

 5     And we see this word "Primljeno," and then it looks like -- can you just

 6     read that material for us slowly so the interpreters can get what you

 7     think that word says and those numbers?

 8        A.   "Primljeno," which means "Received," 17 July at 1220 hours.  And

 9     the signature is of the encrypting officer who received the document.

10     Below that, the number of the telegram, "3671," then something called

11     "Group number" - I don't know exactly what it means - "410."  The urgency

12     is indicated as "PP," and again it's followed by some sort of number,

13     "31."  Underneath is the processing, which obviously lasted about 10

14     minutes, and the final document was produced at 12.30.

15        Q.   All right.  So if this document was received by this unit -

16     perhaps the Drina Corps, since that's the collection we got it from, and

17     it was addressed to the Drina Corps, as we saw - does that help you with

18     this -- the issue related to whether you went to this area on the 17th or

19     18th?

20        A.   Well, since I was informed of that task in the evening, and I was

21     expecting that the order would be then produced by General Miletic,

22     although the document indicates it was written on the 17th of July, and

23     it did arrive, and that's fine, but 17th July, at 12.20, is not in the

24     evening.  That could mean that this document had already been prepared,

25     which is less likely, or perhaps it could mean that I was informed of the

Page 13949

 1     task in the evening of the 16th.  That is more likely.

 2        Q.   Well, you have testified thus far that you were informed of this

 3     task or given the order by Mladic on the 16th.  Do you stand by that?

 4        A.   Every time I either testified or made statements, I said I had

 5     not memorised it, but by reviewing some documents and trying to

 6     reconstruct events, I arrived at the conclusion I was informed of this

 7     task on the 16th and engaged on it on the 17th, although some other

 8     documents indicated differently.  Based on this document we're looking

 9     at, so we could say that I was engaged on the 17th.

10        Q.   What document are you referring to that suggested differently?

11        A.   Well, when I first saw this document that is on the screen now,

12     it indicates it was written on the 17th of July.  I know that I was given

13     that task one evening.  That means that -- that would mean that the order

14     was written on the 17th of July, in the evening.  I did not have, at the

15     time, this document indicating 12.20 on the 17th of July, which means it

16     had not been received by our unit then.  But looking at this and knowing

17     that it was received on the 18th by the brigade, by the Milici Brigade, I

18     simply concluded, based on this document shown to me by Mr. Ruez, that I

19     received the task on the 17th and proceeded with it on the 18th.

20             I was involved in the war for five and a half years, and I cannot

21     remember one particular day, not even a particular month.

22        Q.   General, in your testimony yesterday, the issue of whether you

23     went to Bratunac on the 17th or 18th was the issue.  You were always very

24     clear that you received this order on the 16th.  As you sit here now, are

25     you -- when did you receive the order?

Page 13950

 1        A.   Well, let it stand that I received it on the evening of the 16th

 2     and went to Bratunac on the 17th.  I believe that from all the documents

 3     that we have at our disposal, that is the most logical and most realistic

 4     option.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And we'll go over some of those documents, for that reason

 6     and other reasons.

 7             So if we could take the document off the screen for now, and

 8     let's just ask you a bit more about what happened that night.

 9             Now --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The original document was given back to the

11     Prosecution.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, we will get this into e-court

13     at 778A so that you have is a copy of this -- oh, it's actually in now,

14     so we can offer that into evidence.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 778A shall be

17     assigned Exhibit P2217.  Thank you.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

19        Q.   General, going back to that evening, and General Mladic issues

20     you that oral order that we're now very clear what it was because we have

21     actually seen this written form, and you testified yesterday that that

22     order concerned you because you didn't think it was realistic, and you

23     also had, I think, some concerns about commanding this group of units,

24     can you tell us what your concern was about being able to go and command

25     these units to do this two-day sweep operation in this particular area?

Page 13951

 1        A.   Well, to command a group of mixed tactical units, it's necessary

 2     to set up at least a minimum command base, not necessarily including all

 3     that a -- usually organs, but there has to be a command.  There has to be

 4     a developed command post with all infrastructural elements.  There has to

 5     be a communications centre, there has to be an operations centre, there

 6     must exist the possibility of 24-hour duty service at the command post.

 7     And in order to take over command over a unit of a regiment strength in

 8     the brigade, all that has to be in place.  But the difficulty was I was

 9     not the commander of any of the units involved.  This could be done by

10     one of the commanders of the units that are covered by the order, and he

11     could then liaise with the other units.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, sorry for interrupting.

13             We just have received the other version of the same document, as

14     we see it.  That one has no English translation.  We have heard from the

15     witness that there are some typos and perhaps other differences and

16     written additions.  I think we should only mark it for identification,

17     pending translation.  It should be translated as well.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That's a good idea.

19     I'll get one of our good people, so they'll compare both of them to get

20     that correct.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             Please carry on.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   Well, General, I -- perhaps it's easy for a lawyer to stand up

25     here and say, You can't always have a command post in wartime, you don't

Page 13952

 1     always get everything you need, and I'm sure officers get thrown out and

 2     to have to command much worse situations than this, but let me ask you

 3     this, in particular:  You have described your command experience, both

 4     before this and -- I think you took a command, a significant command

 5     right after this period, so you were a person with command experience,

 6     one of probably a few at the Main Staff at the time; is that not correct?

 7        A.   Well, it may not sound modest, but I need to say that I was a

 8     good commander.  At least that's how I was perceived by the troops and in

 9     the army.

10        Q.   Well, you were a lieutenant-colonel then, you're a general now,

11     you went on to be a minister of defence, so I think your army agreed with

12     you.  So you were certainly a qualified person to take over command of

13     these units at the time, were you not?

14        A.   My qualification was never an issue.  What was an issue were

15     conditions that were in place.  If we look from a distance, we can see

16     that the Operation Krivaja took only 10 days to prepare.  A command post

17     was set up in Pribicevac.  Officers were appointed to arrive.  What I'm

18     saying is that it didn't happen that a random group of soldiers was

19     assigned to head towards Srebrenica.  That task was feasible.  And I

20     always repeat, if somebody had appointed me as the commander of the

21     1st Milici Light Assault Brigade, together with that brigade and the

22     other brigades in the zone, organise and carry out the task, in that case

23     I would have replaced Milomir Nastic in that command, I would have taken

24     over command, and then I would have been able to work.  However, in an

25     open plain, without any support, I was not in a position to carry out

Page 13953

 1     that task.  I believe that more or less everybody should understand that.

 2     I was on my own.  There's no single officer who would be able to take

 3     over a group of soldiers and take over command over them.  It just

 4     doesn't happen.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware at the time, the evening of 16 July, that

 6     that morning in the Zvornik Brigade, thousands of Bosnian Muslims had

 7     over-run, from the rear, Vinko Pandurevic's unit, while at the same time

 8     being hit from the 2nd Corps Muslim units from the front, where they lost

 9     40 to 50 men, and Vinko Pandurevic had been returned from the Zepa

10     battle-field on the 15th to deal with that particular situation, leaving

11     the Zepa battle-field in some distress, the Zepa operation having started

12     on the 14th, losing Vinko Pandurevic's assault group on the 15th, Nastic

13     from Milici being up in Zvornik to help Vinko Pandurevic on the 16th with

14     his problems, Vidoje Blagojevic preparing to come to Zepa to take over

15     for Vinko Pandurevic on the night of the 16th, leaving

16     Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic as a person with command responsibility?

17     Were you aware of any of those facts that we have learned in this

18     courtroom?

19        A.   No.  At that time, I was not aware of any of the details.  I was

20     not aware of any of the movements and the participation of the

21     Milici Brigade on the axis towards the Zvornicka Brigade.  The only thing

22     that I knew and that I heard from Blagojevic on that day was that he was

23     supposed to head towards Zepa.  As for the rest of the information, I

24     didn't know about any of that.  I heard about the problems in the

25     Zvornik Brigade somewhat later.  I heard that the crowd of some 6.000,

Page 13954

 1     7.000 --

 2        Q.   I don't need to know what you heard later.  We may get into that,

 3     but I just want to do clear something up.  You said you heard from

 4     Blagojevic that day that he would be going to Zepa.  What day are you

 5     talking about?

 6        A.   No, no, not on that day.  The day after.  At that time, that

 7     evening, I didn't know anything about the problems that you've just

 8     mentioned.

 9        Q.   So you heard from Blagojevic the next day, the 17th?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And we'll get to that chronology, but first let me -- you

12     mentioned yesterday that you gave General Mladic some of your concerns

13     verbally while he was there, but he ignored you, and then you, I believe,

14     said you went to General Tolimir.  Is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And where did you see General Tolimir that night?

17        A.   At the command post.  I believe that he was in the ops room in

18     Crna Rijeka, in the underground command post room.

19        Q.   So you saw him face to face in the ops room?

20        A.   Yes, face to face.

21        Q.   Was there anybody else in the room when you spoke to him?

22        A.   There were a number of officers there.  I'm not sure who was

23     listening to our conversation, but I know that Ljubo Obradovic was there

24     for sure.  He was colonel at the time, and later on he became general.

25     And Bogdan Sladojevic was also there.  He was also a colonel.  I'm sure

Page 13955

 1     that the two of them were there.  General Miletic was also there, but he

 2     would leave the ops room to go to his office, and then he would come

 3     back.  The ops room was in the middle, and all the offices were around

 4     it, so people would come and go.  I really don't know who was there at

 5     the moment, but, in any case, Miletic was there, Obradovic and

 6     Sladojevic.  I'm sure about the three of them.

 7        Q.   Tell us what you said to General Tolimir and what, if anything,

 8     he said to you.

 9        A.   I told General Tolimir -- or, rather, I repeated what

10     General Mladic's intention was.  I told him that General Miletic was in

11     the process of drafting up an order in that spirit, and I told him that I

12     simply could not accept that and that I was in no position to carry out a

13     task of that nature.  General Tolimir agreed with the way I was thinking,

14     and he told me that he would have a word with General Mladic with regard

15     to the task.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we observe that you have put this

17     question to the witness yesterday already.  I just want to alert you to

18     avoid repetitions.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, I'd forgotten that, Mr. President, and

20     I -- it's -- I'll just continue.

21        Q.   Can you -- and what happened after General Tolimir said that?

22        A.   At the time, General Tolimir left and went to a different part of

23     the facility, I suppose.  I suppose he went to the part where

24     General Mladic was.  And he stayed there a few hours, perhaps a couple of

25     hours.  I'm not sure how long.  After that, when he returned and when I

Page 13956

 1     saw him again, he told me -- in one way or another, I'll try to present

 2     that.  He told me that General Mladic did not relieve me of the

 3     obligation to go to the area where the operation was taking place, and

 4     the operation was the blocking and the scouring of the terrain, but that

 5     I would not be in a position to take over command of units.  I would just

 6     inspect or tour the zone.  I would reach the Bratunac Brigade, and there

 7     Colonel Blagojevic would brief me about the course of the implementation

 8     of the task, and then I would provide that feedback in the evening.  I

 9     would brief others that same evening.  And he also told me that on that

10     same day, I would have other duties both in Bratunac and Srebrenica.

11        Q.   Just so it's clear, General Tolimir is the one that's telling you

12     this?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And where were you supposed to come in the evening, and who were

15     you to brief?

16        A.   The following day, I was supposed to come back to the Main Staff

17     and brief them.  I should have informed General Mladic about what had

18     happened.

19        Q.   All right.  So if the order was to go there and do this on the

20     17th, you were supposed to brief General Mladic on the next day, the

21     18th, or the evening of the 17th?

22        A.   According to what I remember about the events, I was supposed to

23     brief him on the 17th, in the evening.

24        Q.   All right.  What else, if anything, did General Tolimir say to

25     you about any topic?

Page 13957

 1        A.   I was supposed to find Colonel Jankovic in Bratunac from the

 2     Intelligence Administration, and I was supposed to convey a message to

 3     him that a visit should be paid to the Dutch Battalion of UNPROFOR, and

 4     that weapons and some other equipment should be returned to them after

 5     having been confiscated at the check-points by the

 6     Army of Republika Srpska as they were entering Srebrenica.  A message was

 7     supposed to be conveyed to the DutchBat commander that the plan of the

 8     evacuation of the battalion from Srebrenica was changed, that they would

 9     not be evacuated via Sarajevo Airport, but rather via Serbia.  And I was

10     also to convey a message that the evacuation would be secured by the

11     Ministry of the Interior of the Republika Srpska, and Tomo Kovac

12     personally.  At that time, Tomo Kovac was either the deputy minister or

13     the minister of the interior.  As far as I remember, those were to be my

14     additional tasks and duties.

15             I apologise, there is something else.

16             I'm not sure whether that was a task that I was given.  In any

17     case, I was told that Jankovic's obligation would be to supervise the

18     evacuation of the wounded from the Bratunac Hospital, and that evacuation

19     was to be organised by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

20        Q.   Do you recall him giving you any other information about

21     anything?

22        A.   I don't remember anything else.  I don't remember any other piece

23     of information that he may have conveyed.

24        Q.   And do you remember, just roughly, what time of night this was?

25        A.   Well, perhaps around 9.00 or 10.00, 2200 hours.  Sometime between

Page 13958

 1     2200 and 2300 hours.

 2        Q.   And what did you do after receiving this task from

 3     General Tolimir?

 4        A.   Well, I went to Crna Rijeka.  I went to the barracks, and that's

 5     where I spent the rest of that night.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Now, I'm going to show you a few documents

 7     for the days before this to see if this is anything you have any

 8     knowledge of, or perhaps it will set the scene for us for 17 July.

 9             So could we first go to P1605.

10        Q.   And, General, I don't want to spend a lot of time with this, but

11     we can see that it's from a colonel named Ignjat Milanovic.  And do you

12     know who he was?  Does that name ring a bell to you?

13        A.   The name does ring a bell, but I don't know what the person's

14     duty was.  I don't know where he was stationed.  I believe that he was a

15     member of the Command of the Drina Corps, but I'm not sure.

16        Q.   All right.  And I just -- we can see this is dated 15 July.  It's

17     entitled:

18             "Engagement of forces in searching the terrain in the direction

19     of Zepa and the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade ."

20             So it's on that topic again of searching the terrain and it

21     basically, and I'll try to paraphrase it, says that he was ordered to go

22     to the -- Milici and Bratunac and acquaint himself with the situation

23     along the Milici-Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  And it says:

24             "Generally, large groups of enemy soldiers are still located to

25     the east of this road."

Page 13959

 1             And it says:

 2             "The 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade is still searching this

 3     terrain and is almost at the laid" -- "the limit laid down."

 4             Then it talks about the Milici Brigade intercepting groups in the

 5     area of Buljim and Susnjari.  And it indicates an order he's issued about

 6     the general mobilisation to be carried out in Bratunac, Milici, Vlasenica

 7     and Sekovici.  And then he says:

 8             "The assignment you have given to the commander is to be carried

 9     out without fail."

10             And then it talks about the order for the Milici brigade and the

11     direction they were going to.  And then the Bratunac Brigade was to

12     continue searching the terrain, clearing up the battle-field in the

13     direction of Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Kasaba.  And is that the general

14     area that is later the subject-matter of your search of terrain on the

15     17th?

16        A.   Yes, that's the area, a square between Bratunac and Besici

17     village above Srebrenica-Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba.

18        Q.   Okay.  And then he issues a proposal, and we can see that he's

19     delivered this to the command and to the forward command post, to the

20     attention of the commander.  So his proposal is to those commander -- to

21     that commander, and the proposal is "to authorise and appoint the

22     commander of the 1st Bratunac Brigade as commander of all the forces

23     which are participating in searching the terrain and sweeping the

24     battle-field to the east of the road, and in control of the

25     Kasaba-Drinjaca road, because we have no one to appoint from the Command

Page 13960

 1     of the Drina Corps."

 2             Then on the next page of the English -- sorry, again, I've got a

 3     different translation.  Sorry about that.

 4             It says that:

 5             "The Bratunac commander be authorised and appointed a commander

 6     of all forces engaged in the search of terrain and clearing up the

 7     battle-field" -- sorry, could you raise -- could I get a little more -- I

 8     can't read that, and I want to be able to.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be difficult to have that enlarged,

10     because we have both versions on the screen to enable the witness to read

11     it.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

13        Q.   In any event, you can see the proposal for the Bratunac commander

14     to be in command of these units and to conduct this sweep operation, and

15     can you remind us who the Bratunac Brigade commander was at that time?

16        A.   The Bratunac Brigade commander was Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic.

17     According to what I know -- or, rather, according to the information that

18     I received from General Mladic, he was the one who had organised things

19     to implement that task.  He was the one who made it possible for the task

20     to be carried out.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, and we see this proposal on the 15th.

22             Now let's go to another document, 65 ter 247.

23             Mr. President, so you know, many of these documents were typed

24     and handwritten, and so they ended up being translated by different

25     translators.  So the translations get multiple and they get slightly

Page 13961

 1     different, but that's -- that's sort of where this problem is created.

 2             In any event -- well, we'll get that B/C/S version up for you.

 3     If we could get -- there should be a typed version of that so you don't

 4     have to struggle with the original hand version.

 5             Apparently the typed version is so old that it doesn't show up,

 6     so I -- the part I want to read is in the middle of paragraph 2, and I'll

 7     just go slowly through this.  It's not, I don't think, a contested kind

 8     of issue.

 9        Q.   This is a daily combat report from the Bratunac Brigade, dated

10     16 July, and we see that it's got a "1640" time written on it at the

11     bottom right-hand corner, and it's to the Command of the Drina Corps.

12     And as you know, these reports give a basic accounting of what's gone on,

13     and the part I want to ask you about is:  We see that they're making

14     preparation to dispatch units to the Zvornik Brigade to help, and then it

15     says:

16             "During the day, the brigade commander visited all units which

17     are blocking the enemy retreat (the 1st Milici Brigade, units of the 65th

18     Protection Regiment, parts of the MUP and the 5th Engineering Battalion).

19     Define their tasks and organise their joint action and communications.

20     Because of the engagement of forces of the 1st Bratunac Brigade and the

21     1st Milici Brigade on other tasks and assignments, execution of the task

22     in searching the terrain has been slowed down, and actions to block enemy

23     forces in the aforementioned area have been hampered."

24             So on the 16th of July in the late afternoon, when this report

25     goes to the Drina Corps, can you tell, from this document, who is in

Page 13962

 1     command of those forces doing the terrain sweep and blocking?

 2        A.   Well, you can see from the report that that person was

 3     Colonel Blagojevic.

 4        Q.   And how can we tell from the report?  What -- it doesn't -- does

 5     the fact that he is defining their tasks and organising their joint

 6     action -- is that an indication of command?

 7        A.   At the top of the document, when you go to the very top of the

 8     handwritten part of the document, you can see where it says "Command of

 9     the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade," and the date is the 16 July,

10     and it is a daily combat report.  It was only the brigade commander who

11     could send such reports, irrespective of who was in charge of the

12     technical preparations of such reports.

13        Q.   One last question.  It's break time, but my question, General,

14     was:  The fact that we see here that the commander was defining the tasks

15     of these units and organising their joint action and communication, does

16     that indicate that he's actually in command of all those different units?

17        A.   Well, that could be an indication, and one could arrive at the

18     conclusion that he did play the role of commander in the entire zone

19     where the operation was taking place.

20        Q.   And that was, in fact, the proposal of Colonel Milovanovic [sic]

21     the day before, wasn't it, that Blagojevic take command of all these

22     units?

23        A.   Colonel Milanovic, yes.

24        Q.   And these are many of the same units in the same area that your

25     order was involved in; correct?

Page 13963

 1        A.   Yes, correct.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  It's a good time to

 3     break.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             We must have our first break now, and we will resume quarter past

 6     4.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11             And I'd like to tender 65 ter 247, that 16 July daily combat

12     report.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 247 shall be

15     assigned Exhibit P2218.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

17        Q.   General, the -- we've left off where I think you've gone back now

18     and you wake up the morning after you receive this order from

19     General Mladic.  Tell us what you do.

20        A.   In the morning, I don't know at what hour, I set off from

21     Crna Rijeka or Han Pijesak towards Bratunac.  My first stop was at

22     Nova Kasaba.

23        Q.   And who was with you, if anyone?

24        A.   Only the driver, as far as I remember.

25        Q.   And what's his name?

Page 13964

 1        A.   I think it was Novo Ranitovic [phoen].

 2        Q.   All right.  And where in Nova Kasaba did you stop?

 3        A.   It's an intersection where one can make a turn and head for the

 4     school, because at the school the Command of the Military Police

 5     Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment was deployed.  We stopped next

 6     to the road, itself, because the commander of the battalion was there at

 7     the moment, Major Malinic.

 8        Q.   And about what time was this did you stop at the headquarters of

 9     the Military Police Battalion?

10        A.   I cannot tell you how late it was.  It was maybe 9.00 in the

11     morning, roughly.

12        Q.   And what, if anything, was said?

13        A.   Since it was said that one segment of the

14     Military Police Battalion was active in the area, I was simply briefed by

15     Major Malinic about their activities at the moment and their activities

16     in the preceding days.

17        Q.   And can you, just briefly, say, you know, what you -- what you

18     told Malinic, you know, about your task?

19        A.   I told Malinic that I need to go through the zone, get to the

20     zone where the operations were being carried out, and reach the

21     Bratunac Brigade that I was tasked with getting information from

22     Colonel Blagojevic, and that I had some other assignments.  I don't know

23     whether I mentioned my other assignments.  But, in any case, I told them

24     what my role was that day in the area.

25        Q.   And can you just tell us, briefly, what he reported to you about

Page 13965

 1     the situation, what sort of details, as best you can recall?  But just

 2     outline them.  We don't need all the details.

 3        A.   I will try and tell you all we discussed in the 10 or 15 minutes.

 4             The first thing he told me was that he had suspended the training

 5     with new troops because there, in the area of the command post at

 6     Nova Kasaba, there was only one company that was being trained, a

 7     military police company.  All other units were outside of that area.  So

 8     he had suspended the training and deployed that unit, consisting of a

 9     hundred to 150 troops, to block the area from Nova Kasaba towards

10     Konjevic Polje, in other words, along the road between those two towns,

11     so they had a line there along that axis.  That was the task that the

12     unit was carrying out at the moment, together with Major Malinic.

13             I also received first information about larger groups of POWs

14     being present in the area.  They were being transferred.  They were on

15     the move from Srebrenica to Tuzla.  Major Malinic informed me that late

16     on the 12th of July, but mostly on the 13th of July, there were --

17        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but there's just, I think, a

18     translation issue.  We got that there was large groups of POWs that were

19     present in the area and that were being transferred.  What did you mean

20     by that, and what dates did he tell you about, if that's what you're

21     talking about?

22        A.   I did not understand you.  You mean in my previous answer or at

23     an earlier stage?

24        Q.   No.  In the answer you just gave us, it says that you said POWs

25     were being transferred.  Is that correct or is that a translation issue?

Page 13966

 1        A.   No, no, it wasn't correct.  On that day, I received first

 2     information about POWs appearing in the area in the preceding days.

 3        Q.   Okay, all right, and I interrupted you.  You were talking about

 4     the 12th, so go ahead.

 5        A.   So on that occasion, Major Malinic told me that on the night

 6     between the 12th and the 13th, and during the 13th of July, there were

 7     2.500 or 3.000 prisoners of war, according to his estimates of POWs, that

 8     were located at the football pitch there.  He told me that his initial

 9     assignment was to register them, which he had started doing, he started

10     registering them, but had to stop doing that because General Mladic told

11     him to stop.

12             General Mladic was passing on that road, and he stopped and

13     addressed the POWs himself.  He allegedly told them - he told him as

14     well - that there was no need for registering these people because they

15     were to be transferred/moved to Tuzla because that was their destination

16     anyhow.  And Major Malinic then stopped registering the POWs.

17             Immediately after that, or, rather, after some time --

18        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  Can you tell us what you mean by

19     "registering"?

20        A.   I mean that lists were to be made, including their names,

21     surnames, name of one of their parents, date of birth, and the place of

22     birth, in other words, basic data for individuals, providing they had

23     their IDs.  If they had their IDs, of course, the documents could be used

24     to make the lists.  If not, they would be asked to provide their basic

25     data.  And the idea was to make the lists.

Page 13967

 1        Q.   Okay.  And you said after that -- you said:

 2             "Immediately after that, or, rather, after some time --"

 3             And that's when I interrupted you.

 4             So what do you remember him telling you next; Malinic, that is?

 5        A.   He told me that he did, indeed, stop making those lists, and that

 6     soon after, General Mladic, the commander of the Main Staff, addressed

 7     them.

 8             Buses arrived to the football pitch in Nova Kasaba, maybe buses

 9     and trucks or maybe just buses, and these buses were there in order to

10     transport the POWs to Bratunac.  That was done.  They entered the

11     vehicles, and under escort, military police escort, Malinic --

12     Military Police Battalion escort, they were taken to Bratunac.

13        Q.   And did he mention anything to you about Colonel Beara?

14        A.   He did mention -- or Colonel Beara was mentioned there.

15     Allegedly, he either issued or passed on the order for all the POWs to be

16     registered.

17        Q.   And did he say where those POWs were to go?

18        A.   You mean Beara?  He did not.  I did not hear anything about that.

19        Q.   Do you remember Malinic telling you that Beara had ordered that

20     all the prisoners were to be taken to the soccer field?

21        A.   Yes, yes, that was the initial order, that they should be located

22     in the area of the football pitch and that they should be registered,

23     yes.

24        Q.   And who gave that order to Malinic, according to Malinic?

25        A.   It was Beara's order.  The way I understood it, it was passed on

Page 13968

 1     to him through the duty officer in the unit.

 2        Q.   Did Malinic tell you Beara was personally present or did these

 3     orders come in over the communications through the duty officer?

 4        A.   I don't remember him telling me anything about Beara being there

 5     personally.

 6        Q.   So this would have come through the duty officer -- from Beara,

 7     through the duty officer of the Military Police Battalion?

 8        A.   Yes, possible.  I think -- I think that's the way it was, through

 9     the duty officer.

10        Q.   Had General Tolimir told you where Beara was?

11        A.   At one point, and as I sit here, I do not recollect when, whether

12     it was on the 16th, in the evening hours, or maybe on the 17th, in the

13     morning, before I departed, I'm not sure about that, but at about that

14     time on the 16th, General Tolimir did say that Colonel Beara was present

15     in the zone of the Drina Corps.  I did have that piece of information at

16     my disposal.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, Judge Nyambe has a question.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

20             I just need a clarification from you regarding what you have just

21     stated at page 36, lines 6 to 10.  And you've said:

22             "Buses arrived to the football pitch in Nova Kasaba, maybe buses

23     and trucks or maybe just buses, and these buses were there in order to

24     transport the POWs to Bratunac.  That was done.  They entered the

25     vehicles, and under escort, military police escort, Malinic --

Page 13969

 1     Military Police Battalion escort, they were taken to Bratunac."

 2             Were you present when this was happening?  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not present.  What I'm

 4     recounting now is what I'd been told by Major Malinic on the 17th, in the

 5     morning, when we ran into each other close to his command post.  All the

 6     events I'm talking about took place on the 13th, and I was not an

 7     eye-witness to the events.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Now, I -- do you recall, did General Tolimir give you a location

12     in the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

13        A.   Zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps?  I'm not familiar

14     what's the northern border of their zone of responsibility, because it

15     was neighbouring with East Bosnia Corps, where I had been prior to that.

16     I didn't even know the lines towards the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, but I

17     knew that the command post of the Drina Corps was in Vlasenica.  That's

18     the only thing I knew.  I don't know any locations and wasn't told about

19     any locations by anyone.

20        Q.   Where did General Tolimir tell you Beara was located?

21        A.   Somewhere in the zone of the Drina Corps.  He didn't tell me

22     precisely where.

23        Q.   All right, and so back to our chronology.

24             Major Malinic is telling you this information.  You've added the

25     part about General Tolimir information too.  What happened -- what

Page 13970

 1     happened after Major Malinic finished telling you this information?

 2     Anything else that you recall him telling you?

 3        A.   I don't remember anything else, except for the fact that he told

 4     me he'd stay there and continue with his assignment; namely, keeping the

 5     communication blocked until further orders.  That's the only thing I

 6     remember about it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And where did you go next?

 8        A.   I headed on along that road.  And after several kilometres

 9     between Kasaba and Konjevic Polje, I ran into an officer from the

10     Communications Regiment.  I'm not certain who he was, although somewhere

11     in the area the commander of the regiment was supposed to be, but I don't

12     remember having seen him.  The officer I saw also told me that the

13     Communications Regiment has one segment of its forces blockading the area

14     facing Konjevic Polje.

15        Q.   Okay.  And after checking with that unit, where did you go?

16        A.   From there, I went to the crossroads at Konjevic Polje, and from

17     there to Bratunac.  I stopped only briefly at Konjevic Polje because

18     there were many vehicles there, buses, and various members of the army,

19     police.  So what they were doing, they were trying to make sure that the

20     traffic would flow faster through the crossroads.  And I did not stop

21     there, looking for anyone in charge for that area around Konjevic Polje.

22     And then I went immediately to Bratunac.

23        Q.   Did you see any Muslim prisoners assembled around Konjevic Polje

24     or anywhere on this road at this -- at this time?

25        A.   Not at that time, I did not see any prisoners at all.

Page 13971

 1        Q.   And about how many buses did you see at the Konjevic Polje

 2     intersection?

 3        A.   I'm not sure.  Perhaps three or four, but there were other

 4     vehicles and lorries.

 5        Q.   And you said you went to Bratunac.  Where did you go in Bratunac?

 6        A.   Since I had never been there, I made inquiries, and I went

 7     directly to the Command of the Bratunac Brigade.

 8        Q.   And, again, I know you can't be exact, but roughly what time was

 9     it when you got to the Command of the Bratunac Brigade?

10        A.   Well, it was past 10.00 in the morning, sometime between 10.00

11     and 11.00, not later than a quarter past 11.00.

12        Q.   And who did you see there?

13        A.   I looked for the commander, Colonel Blagojevic, and I found him

14     on the first floor of the building where the command was based.  It was a

15     red building of a factory.  And he was alone in his office.

16        Q.   And describe the -- what was said.

17        A.   Well, that's the first time we met.  We hadn't met earlier.  I

18     told him on what mission I had come to the area; that one of my tasks was

19     to report to him, to be briefed by him as to how the blockade was

20     proceeding and how the sweep operation was proceeding, that aspect of the

21     Krivaja Operation.  Blagojevic told me, as far as I remember, that

22     everything was on the move as of the day before, that the units were

23     carrying out the blockade, and the sweep operation was being handled by

24     the units of the police, of the MUP.  That's what he said that I can

25     remember.  In other words, he had organised all the activities, just as

Page 13972

 1     the day before.

 2        Q.   And did he indicate some of his units were involved in that as

 3     well?

 4        A.   His units, or at least a part of his units, was keeping the

 5     blockade from Bratunac towards Kravica and Konjevic Polje.  Up to what

 6     point, I cannot remember exactly, but that was a section of the road

 7     between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje.

 8        Q.   And what else of significance do you recall him telling you?

 9        A.   Well, I recall he said he had already received the so-called

10     preparatory order, and he was about to receive his assignment relating to

11     operations towards Zepa.  And part of his forces, together with him, were

12     supposed to head there.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And can we just go to P1219.

14        Q.   And this is -- General, it's a log-book that we picked up at the

15     Bratunac Brigade in a search back in 1998.

16             And if we could go to page 10 in the B/C/S, and it should be

17     page -- sorry, page 10 in the English, and perhaps page 10 in the B/C/S.

18             You've got the B/C/S correct.  I see that.  And, yes, the e-court

19     gods are with us.

20             So we can see in this book, which is entitled "Report on the

21     meetings of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade," that there's a

22     working meeting with the commander, with the corps command.  And then the

23     commander -- this is dated the 16th, as we can see, and it says:

24             "The formation of the battalion for Zepa by 0700 hours on 17

25     July."

Page 13973

 1             Is this one of the documents I showed you to help you prepare for

 2     your testimony?

 3        A.   Well, I don't really remember seeing this document.  Perhaps I've

 4     seen similar documents.  Whether it was this one, I'm not sure.  But it

 5     supports what Blagojevic said, that he was about to prepare and head for

 6     Zepa.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 3036A.

 8        Q.   And as we're waiting:  You may remember this is an intercept the

 9     Bosnian Muslims were able to get.  It's at 1220 hours.

10             If we can find the one in that report that starts at 1220.

11     You're going to have to blow it up to be able to figure that out, I'm

12     afraid.

13             Thank you.  That's -- that's it.  And this is, I can tell the

14     Court, one of the exhibits that is dated 17 July.  If we go to the very

15     top of the report, you'll see the 17 July date, at 1220 hours.

16             Is this an intercept you recall being shown before, I think at a

17     trial a few years back?

18        A.   Yes, yes, and it was shown to me recently.

19        Q.   And what, if anything, are you able to make of this intercept

20     that may or may not relate to this issue we're talking about?

21        A.   Well, if we are to believe this text, and I suppose we can

22     believe it because this is a transcript of a real conversation, we see

23     that at 12.20, Colonel Blagojevic had already left Bratunac and was on

24     his way, together with his column.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 13974

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             My greetings to Mr. McCloskey.

 3             Could we see the date on this document?  It would be good to see

 4     the date; for the witness as well.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we go back up to the beginning of this report,

 7     it should have the date, if we've got the complete thing.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps another page.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, we do not -- we only put into e-court

10     the section of the report with the -- with the intercept.  But for the

11     general, we'll get the whole report.  So as I'm sure you remember, to

12     find the date, you've got to go to the top, to the report, and we'll get

13     that so he can take a look at that.  But I can assure you it's 17 July,

14     but we can get that, of course.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We would appreciate that.

16             Please continue.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And do you recall this intercept?  I think it was first shown to

19     you as a Defence witness by the Defence attorney for Colonel Blagojevic.

20     Is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And your view, that this intercept that says Blagojevic has set

23     off at the head of a column of seven buses, is consistent with what

24     you've just testified?

25        A.   Well, I believe it is.  That's what we concluded, that this

Page 13975

 1     battalion of the Bratunac Brigade was already moving towards Zepa.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back to your chronology, then.

 3             You're still in Bratunac.  What else do you remember

 4     Colonel Blagojevic telling you, besides that he was getting ready to go

 5     off to Zepa?

 6        A.   Well, I don't remember talking about anything else with him.  We

 7     didn't have much time anyway.  In the meantime, Colonel Jankovic showed

 8     up, and I had been looking for him, so I don't remember discussing

 9     anything else in particular.

10        Q.   Okay.  Before we get to Colonel Jankovic, let me ask you:  We'll

11     recall that the original Mladic order, both oral and written, puts you in

12     command of these forces, and then you've said that General Tolimir was

13     able to change that so that you just were to be able to go to the various

14     forces and get information.  So now that you see Colonel Blagojevic

15     getting ready to go off to Zepa, what did you do, if anything, about the

16     command situation for the sweep operation?

17        A.   Nothing.  As far as I know, nothing, because Blagojevic had his

18     chief of staff, his deputy.  I don't know what arrangements he made for

19     his absence, but at that time he had hardly left his area.  Srebrenica

20     and Zepa were in the same area.  Maybe he never left his own area of

21     responsibility.  Anyway, I wasn't even sure he was leaving on that day.

22        Q.   All right.  And you say Colonel Jankovic showed up.  Can you

23     remind us who Colonel Jankovic is?

24        A.   Colonel Jankovic was one of the commanding officers in the

25     Intelligence Administration, in the Sector for Intelligence and Security.

Page 13976

 1     Now, which section he belonged to exactly, I don't know, but he was used

 2     a lot for ensuring communications, contact, and liaison because he spoke

 3     English and other languages.  In any case, he was in the

 4     Intelligence Administration.

 5        Q.   And can you again briefly remind us, had you had a particular

 6     assignment regarding Colonel Jankovic?

 7        A.   Yes.  I've already spoken about that.  My assignment was to find

 8     Colonel Jankovic in Bratunac, and that I did immediately at the command.

 9     I told Blagojevic or somebody at the command that I needed Jankovic.

10     Jankovic was found, and he came to Blagojevic's office because I had

11     specific assignments for Jankovic.

12        Q.   And tell us, briefly, what was said.

13        A.   Well, it was said that he should establish contact with the

14     Dutch Battalion, make apologies somehow for the events that occurred

15     during entry into Srebrenica, when weapons and other assets were taken

16     away from Dutch armed forces, and he was to say that these things would

17     be returned to them.  That's one of the assignments I was supposed to

18     convey to him.

19             Another assignment was that he should tell Colonel Karremans,

20     commander of the Dutch Battalion, that his evacuation plan has changed,

21     that it would be done through Serbia and not via Sarajevo Airport, for

22     security reasons.  This evacuation would be monitored and supported by

23     the MUP of Republika Srpska; namely, Tomo Kovac.

24             Also, Colonel Jankovic was supposed to arrange somehow the

25     evacuation of the wounded from the Health Centre in Bratunac.

Page 13977

 1             That's what I told Jankovic when he came.

 2        Q.   Did you tell him who he was getting this assignment from?

 3        A.   Well, I told him that these assignments were given to me by

 4     General Tolimir.

 5        Q.   And do you recall what his response, if any, was?

 6        A.   I don't remember anything in particular, because I left the

 7     Command of the Bratunac Brigade with him to start carrying out some of

 8     these tasks.

 9        Q.   And tell us where you went and what, if anything, you

10     communicated about.

11        A.   After leaving the Bratunac Brigade Command, we went to the

12     Dutch Battalion.  At one point, we stopped by the police station in

13     Bratunac.  I'm not sure anymore for what reason.  Jankovic had some

14     business there.  But, anyway, we dropped by.  Whether it was before or

15     after visiting the Dutch Battalion, I can't tell anymore, but we stopped

16     by the police station.  We went together to the Dutch Battalion Command,

17     where we waited for about half an hour to be received by the commander.

18     We went into his office and stayed there for about an hour.  I'm not sure

19     how long it was exactly, but it took some time.

20        Q.   And just briefly describe to us what you did during this hour, or

21     just the topic of the discussion.

22        A.   Well, only vaguely, because Colonel Jankovic spoke in the English

23     language with the UNPROFOR battalion commander, so I did not understand

24     all of it.  I didn't understand most of it.  I know only what Jankovic

25     kind of interpreted to me in the breaks so that I should be able to

Page 13978

 1     follow: that he was telling them what he had to tell them concerning the

 2     evacuation, and return of the weapons, and other things that had been

 3     taken away.  So I wasn't able to follow the entire conversation.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's just go back for

 5     General Tolimir.

 6             If we could go to 3036G.  That's the big report of that

 7     intercept, and we can go to where the date is shown.

 8             Okay, there we see the report with the date of 17 July, and,

 9     actually, the 12.20 conversation is right up front.  So we'll -- and

10     that's 3036G, which we should put into evidence, I guess.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you using it with the witness any further?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.  I just wanted to respond to the general's

13     concern.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             It will be received, and I think with both versions, one with the

16     date, 17th of July, and the other one, solely the intercept, itself, and

17     the translation.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter documents 3036A and 3036G

19     shall be assigned Exhibit P2219.  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   All right.  General, let's go back.  You've described to us

22     briefly about that you and Colonel Jankovic were carrying out the task

23     that Tolimir had issued for him.  And what did you do after that?

24        A.   From the Command of the Dutch Battalion, we went again to

25     Bratunac, and we stopped by the Health Centre, where the evacuation of

Page 13979

 1     prisoners was underway, organised by the ICRC.  Something was going on

 2     there.  As we stopped by, somebody - I don't remember who - had separated

 3     a group of the wounded, about 20 of them, and these were not evacuated in

 4     the organisation of the ICRC, and they eventually stayed there after the

 5     column left.  And we stayed there and observed until the column of the --

 6     the convoy of the ICRC had left.  I remember there was a certain lady,

 7     Lucy, organising all that.

 8        Q.   All right.  And did you ever see, that day, a man -- a military

 9     man named Momir Nikolic?

10        A.   I don't remember -- no, I did not know a Momir Nikolic.  He was a

11     security officer in the Bratunac Brigade, and I don't remember seeing him

12     on that day.

13        Q.   All right.  And what did you -- do you know, again roughly, what

14     time the ICRC evacuated those wounded people?

15        A.   In the afternoon, around 2.00 p.m., 3.00 p.m.

16        Q.   And what did you do after that?  You're still with

17     Colonel Jankovic, I take it.

18        A.   Well, we stayed around - how long, I don't remember - after the

19     convoy left.  I don't remember at what point we stopped by the police

20     station.  After all that was done, we went our different ways.  I went

21     back to Crna Rijeka; that is, up the road to Konjevic Polje and Kasaba,

22     towards Crna Rijeka.

23        Q.   Do you remember, while you were in the Bratunac area, did you

24     ever meet with an officer from the Special Police?

25        A.   Yes, I did.  At the police station in Bratunac, I came across

Page 13980

 1     Colonel Ljubisa Borovcanin, who was chief of staff in the

 2     Special MUP Brigade, and he was one of the rare officers whom I had known

 3     earlier in that area.

 4        Q.   So why were you at the police station in the first place?

 5        A.   I'm not sure why Jankovic had to stop by, on what business.  But

 6     when we went into the police station, in the office of the commander or

 7     whoever, there was a large group of policemen, and Borovcanin was with

 8     them.  I did not have any reason to go there.

 9        Q.   Did Borovcanin say anything?  Did you have any discussion or

10     communication with Mr. Borovcanin?

11        A.   He said some things we spoke about, what he did, and he said he

12     was there with some of his forces.  And he said that his forces were

13     mixed, that he had some members of the Special Brigade and some police

14     officers from the rank of regular police forces from various police

15     stations.  From the Zvornik Security Services Centre, that encompasses

16     Bratunac and Milici.  Those were special units, in other words.  He also

17     said that those special units were deployed in some check-points,

18     including Konjevic Polje, but all of his troops were mostly engaged in

19     scouring the terrain.

20        Q.   And when you say "scouring the terrain," was the "search of the

21     terrain" job that was the subject of your earlier order by

22     General Mladic, or similar to?

23        A.   No, that's the search Colonel Blagojevic was talking about when

24     he said the troops were blockaded and that the police would be sent out

25     to search the terrain.  So, yes, that's the task I was talking about.

Page 13981

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 2             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 3             Yes.  At page 47, lines 23 to 25, through to 48, lines 1 to 3,

 4     you have stated as follows:

 5             "Something was going on there.  As we stopped by, somebody - I

 6     don't remember who - had separated a group of wounded, about 20 of them,

 7     and these were not evacuated in the organisation of the ICRC ...," and so

 8     on and so forth. ^

 9             Then you come to say:

10             "I remember there was a certain lady, Lucy, organising all that."

11             My question is:  From which side of those involved in that

12     evacuation was Lucy from; the ICRC, or the MUP, or another organisation?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ICRC, they brought vehicles and

14     they carried out the evacuation.  So it was the International Red Cross

15     that did that.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  And so Lucy, the lady Lucy, was from the ICRC?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   And perhaps on that same subject:  Do you know why those 20 were

22     separated that didn't get transported?

23        A.   There were stories, people talked, and it was said that those

24     combatants had been identified as perpetrators of crimes that happened

25     during the previous period and that they couldn't be evacuated together

Page 13982

 1     with the rest.  That was the explanation.

 2        Q.   And who did the separating of these 20 individuals from the

 3     larger group that was evacuated?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can't answer your question.

 5        Q.   Was it the ICRC that separated them?

 6        A.   No, of course not.  Madam Lucy actually fought hard for everybody

 7     to be evacuated, without any selection or separation.

 8        Q.   Okay, thank you.  And this information, you say "stories," where

 9     did that come from?

10        A.   Well, all the stories were heard there within the perimeter of

11     the Health Centre, and most of the people who were there were police

12     officers probably from Bratunac.  I don't know if there were members of

13     the military too.  I didn't notice anybody but Jankovic, and, of course,

14     I myself was there.  And there was also doctors, medical staff from the

15     hospital.  They all made up a group that talked very agitatedly about the

16     problem, and that was the first time the issue was raised about that

17     group that couldn't go.  Who identified them and who issued an order for

18     them to stay behind instead of being evacuated, I really don't know.

19        Q.   All right.  And on a related topic:  Did you deal with any issues

20     with an international group called Doctors Without Borders, MSF?

21        A.   Doctors Without Borders, I know who they are.  My only personal

22     contact with them was when I met them as members of a mobile hospital in

23     Banja Luka.  After I was wounded, I asked them for medical assistance.

24     Otherwise, I did not have much to do with them.

25        Q.   Okay.  Going back to where you were talking with Mr. Borovcanin

Page 13983

 1     about the sweep operation:  Did you come to any decisions about the sweep

 2     operation with the army and his forces or anything of significance?

 3        A.   Well, I just took stock of the situation.  I had some personal

 4     contacts that helped me with that, and I also relied on what Blagojevic

 5     and Borovcanin told me.  I realised that the operation was ongoing, that

 6     it was underway, and that it would come to an end pretty soon.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Could we have 65 ter 1435.

 8        Q.   And, General, I don't want to spend too much time with this.  I'm

 9     not sure you've seen this before, but I just want to ask you if you have.

10     It's a 17 July order from a Special Police commander named Goran Saric,

11     and as we can see, it's sent to a group of people, including

12     Ljubisa Borovcanin, the person you just mentioned, and the Bratunac

13     Public Security Station, where -- is that where you were talking to

14     Ljubisa Borovcanin, at the Bratunac Public Security Station?  --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And we see, in paragraph 1 of this, that it talks about forming a

17     combat group on the 17th to search the terrain of the Pobudje sector and

18     clear the side of the Milici-Drinjaca road.  Is that basically this part

19     of the sweep operation that you were sent down to co-ordinate and be

20     involved in to some degree?

21        A.   That was one part of the operation.  But as I've already told

22     you, I was not supposed to take an active part in it in that way.  I was

23     just to see how things were going on.  I was just sent out to be there

24     and to see how things were done.

25        Q.   Understood.  Have you ever seen this order before?

Page 13984

 1        A.   I don't think so.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer this into evidence.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1435 shall be

 5     assigned Exhibit P2220.  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 7        Q.   And going back to your chronology:  Before I'd asked you about

 8     the Special Police, I think you'd basically gotten yourself -- you had

 9     split up with Colonel Jankovic, and you'd started going back to

10     Crna Rijeka; is that correct?

11        A.   After all of the activities in Bratunac, namely, the evacuation

12     of the wounded, I visited the police station and to the DutchBat.  When

13     everything was finished, we went our separate ways.  During that period

14     of time, Colonel Jankovic actually stayed in Bratunac.  He never told me

15     that; not in so many words, but that was my impression.

16        Q.   Did he give you any messages to pass on to anyone at Crna Rijeka?

17        A.   Nothing special.  The only thing that he told me was that he had

18     accomplished his mission with the Dutch Battalion, and then we agreed

19     that I would say that some of the prisoners had stayed behind in the

20     Health Centre; that some of them were not evacuated, in other words.

21        Q.   Okay.  And about what time did you leave the Bratunac area?

22        A.   Probably, sometime after 1600 or 1700 hours.  It was still

23     daylight.  It was summer, summertime, and the visibility was good.  I

24     would say sometime late in the afternoon.

25        Q.   And did you stop anywhere along the way home towards Crna Rijeka?

Page 13985

 1        A.   Well, I don't remember that we stopped.  I remember that we had

 2     to stop before Konjevic Polje for 10 or 15 minutes because the road was

 3     blocked with vehicles which were making U-turns in that area.  That's

 4     what stopped me for 10 minutes or so on the road.

 5        Q.   What kind of vehicles?

 6        A.   There was an occasional bus, but mostly lorries, some all-terrain

 7     vehicles.  I believe that on the side of the road, I even saw an APC on

 8     the road to Drinjaca, where the road forks off towards Drinjaca.  I

 9     believe that even APCs were there.  There was some -- there were a lot of

10     passenger vehicles.  I really can't tell you exactly what I saw, what

11     kind of vehicles I saw.

12        Q.   Whose APC was this?

13        A.   No, no, no, I don't understand.  No, I didn't say "transport."  I

14     never mentioned any transporters.

15        Q.   We have, in the English translation, that:

16             "I even saw an APC."

17             An armoured personnel carrier is what that's short for.  Did you

18     ever say you saw an armoured personnel carrier?

19        A.   No, no, I said that it was a piece of engineering machinery, a

20     piece of machinery or vehicle belonging to engineers.  That's what I

21     said.

22        Q.   What kind of machinery?  What was the machinery designed to do?

23        A.   Well, it was a classical dozer -- bulldozer.

24        Q.   Was it a machine that could dig?

25        A.   It was a combined piece of equipment.  It could dig and it could

Page 13986

 1     also push the earth in front of it.

 2        Q.   All right.  And did you see any Muslims around, any prisoners?

 3        A.   No, no, I didn't.  I didn't see any.

 4        Q.   And why were these vehicles turning around, as far as you could

 5     tell?

 6        A.   I don't know why.  They were moving in all sorts of directions

 7     from there; towards Bratunac, Kasaba, and towards Drinjaca.  In any case,

 8     at one point in time that crossroads was totally blocked.  I don't know

 9     why all the commotion.

10        Q.   Okay.  And after that delay, where did you go?

11        A.   Back to Crna Rijeka, to Han Pijesak.

12        Q.   And who did you see back there?  Actually, let me ask you:

13     Roughly, what time did you get back to Crna Rijeka?

14        A.   At sunset, around 1900 or 2000 hours.

15        Q.   And who did you see back at the Crna Rijeka?

16        A.   First, I went to the Operations Centre, where General Miletic

17     was.  I don't remember who else was there at the time.  I briefed

18     General Miletic about the search of the terrain.  I don't know how much

19     time I spent with him, and I really don't remember whether our discussion

20     touched upon any other topics.  I can't remember that.

21             After that, I went down to the barracks, or, rather, to the

22     command post.  And there, over a period of a few hours, I conveyed the

23     same information to General Tolimir.

24        Q.   And, roughly, what time of day was it?  If you got back at about

25     sunset and you went to the Operations Centre -- actually, let me ask you:

Page 13987

 1     When you went to the Operations Centre, was that the one in the bunker or

 2     the one in the buildings?

 3        A.   The Operations Centre in the bunker.  And everything happened

 4     within the scope of a few hours, so I wouldn't be able to pin-point the

 5     times exactly.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And so you leave the bunker, and you go see

 7     General Tolimir where?

 8        A.   In the prefabricated buildings, in the barracks.

 9        Q.   And what do you say to him?

10        A.   Just like in the Operations Centre, but I also told him about the

11     tasks that we carried out together with Jankovic.

12        Q.   All right.  And those are all -- those are the tasks that you've

13     already told us about?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And what, if anything, did he say to you?

16        A.   I don't remember anything special.  Perhaps we said a few things,

17     and he said that the separation of some of the wounded was not okay and

18     that that situation had to be resolved over the next few days.  I vaguely

19     remember something to that effect.  And after that, we discussed the

20     upcoming tasks.

21        Q.   And what were those?  Tell us about what you discussed with him.

22        A.   Well, we discussed things to do over the next few days.  For

23     example, on the following day or over the next two days, I was supposed

24     to talk to the officers of the military police who had completed training

25     in the Army of Yugoslavia and who had joined the Army of the

Page 13988

 1     Republika Srpska, and I was supposed to give a proposal to the commander

 2     as to how they would be deployed.  After that, I was supposed to go to

 3     the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and there I

 4     was supposed to meet with the officers of the Security Department of the

 5     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I was supposed to take stock of the situation

 6     over there, in view of the all-out offensive which was launched from

 7     Sarajevo against the axis from Trnovo to Kijevo.  That axis had been

 8     threatened at the time.  Most of the Battalion of the Military Police and

 9     the Protective Regiment were deployed on that axis.

10             As for the other tasks, I was supposed to have a meeting and a

11     conversation with the group of Russian volunteers.  I was supposed to

12     brief them about the rules of engagement.  They had turned up with an

13     intention to be deployed in the Sarajevo front-line.

14             Another task was for me to talk to a group of officers that had

15     been selected to replenish the security organs in the units where those

16     were missing.

17             All those things were supposed to be done over the next four or

18     five days, before the 23rd of July.  And on that day, I travelled to

19     Drvar, to the forward command post of the Main Staff, where I joined the

20     general, General Milovanovic.

21        Q.   Okay.  And who told you about all these tasks?  Who told you you

22     were supposed to do all these things you've just described?

23        A.   General Tolimir, General Tolimir.

24        Q.   And do you remember telling us before about going to Sarajevo to

25     bring an officer from an international organisation to take part in some

Page 13989

 1     agreement with Mladic in Zepa?

 2        A.   When General Tolimir gave me the list of tasks facing the

 3     Security Administration or, rather, the Sector for Intelligence and

 4     Security, all in the function of the intention for me not to take over

 5     command of those units.  He mentioned, amongst other things, that a

 6     military mission in Sarajevo was supposed to send a certain

 7     Colonel Howard and another officer, or, rather, that they should have

 8     been brought over to monitor negotiations between the VRS and the

 9     leadership of Zepa.  However, I did not carry out that task.  I don't

10     know why.  I must have forgotten it.  As far as my memory serves me, that

11     task was actually never issued to me, and there is nothing that would

12     tell me that it ever was.  There are no notes to that effect or anything.

13        Q.   When did General Tolimir tell you about this task of getting

14     Colonel Howard?

15        A.   He mentioned that task in the evening on the 16th.

16        Q.   All right.  And those other tasks that you -- that he gave you

17     when you got back from the Bratunac area, were those in written form, or

18     oral, or both?

19        A.   Oral, those tasks were conveyed in an oral form.  That was a

20     customary way of communication among the security officers or, rather,

21     the officers in the Security and Intelligence Sector.  The only exception

22     would have been engagements that dealt with things that were not within

23     the normal scope of our activities.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Thank you, General.  It's break time.

25             And, Mr. President, I have just a couple of documents to clear up

Page 13990

 1     some of the timing issues, but I'm hoping 15 or 20 minutes is all I have

 2     left.  And given that I've been on for five hours and forty-five minutes,

 3     I better not have more than fifteen minutes left.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told you have only used five hours and

 5     forty-three minutes.  That means you have really a quarter of an hour

 6     left.

 7             We must have our second break now, and we'll resume at quarter

 8     past 6.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please go ahead.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   General, I want to go over a couple of documents.  I think you've

14     seen them sort of briefly.

15             If we could go to P00376A.

16             And this is an intercept, and I can tell you that it's from 17

17     July 1995.  I think -- you've seen it before, I know.  It's got your name

18     in it, and it's between X and Y.  And we can see that it talks about:

19             "Has Keserovic set out already?"

20             And X says:

21             "We came across him on our way here."

22             It's 11.15 a.m. on the 17th of July, and it's hard to make out

23     exactly what they're talking about, but have you seen this intercept

24     before?

25        A.   Yes, I have, in the printed version, typed version of it, of this

Page 13991

 1     issue where I was, because I was expected somewhere in the area on that

 2     day.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And the typed version is B, if we can show that.

 4        Q.   And we see that it mentions at some point:

 5             "Well, he must have gone first forward over there to

 6     Momir Nikolic."

 7             We know that Momir Nikolic was in the Bratunac area.  During this

 8     period of time after you got back to Eastern Bosnia, the 16th, 17th,

 9     18th, did you ever go to the Bratunac area but once, that you've told us

10     about, or did you ever go there again?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast.  I was told it is a

12     confidential document.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was in Bratunac only once.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would tender this document -- it's

15     already in, I see.  It's got a P number.

16             All right.  Let's go to P1747, and it should be page 4 in the

17     English and page -- I've got "89" in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   And this is a log-book from the Zvornik Brigade, and this is a

19     log-book for 17 July.  Do you remember me showing you this 17 July entry?

20        A.   Yes, and also that at 0845 hours, three colonels showed up in the

21     Zvornik Brigade.

22        Q.   Yes.  And it's mentioning "led by Colonel Trkulja," that they

23     went to the IKM to review the conditions and then returned at 1500.  Does

24     this assignment led by Trkulja, does that -- is that related to anything

25     that you heard General Mladic order anybody else to do on that 16th?

Page 13992

 1        A.   Yes, it is related.  The three colonels, that's what we saw in

 2     items 1 and 2 of the order.  They were told to go to the Zvornik Brigade,

 3     and to assess the situation there and to return.

 4        Q.   All right.  And so if this is correct, they would have left

 5     Crna Rijeka probably in the morning and driven there, or do you know if

 6     they went to Zvornik and spent the night before going out to the IKM?

 7        A.   I'm not familiar with their time of departure.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, General, I want to ask you a couple of final

 9     questions.

10             You've told us that you were not in command of the sweep-up

11     operation, but I want to tell you there's a witness in this case that has

12     testified he was one of the officers for the Special Police, under

13     Mr. Borovcanin, and he said he was involved in the sweep operation - and

14     this is at page 8633 of the testimony - on the 17th of July, and that by

15     the end of that sweep operation that he conducted with the army, they had

16     received about 200 prisoners.  And there are indications in this case

17     that some of those people turned up in a mass grave in Cerska, and

18     certainly 200 people from the 17th have never been seen again.

19             So, General, I'm concerned that you have said that you were not

20     in command of that sweep operation because you're aware that prisoners

21     were captured and then killed at the end of it.  Is that true?  Were you

22     in command of this sweep operation?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   When did you first find out that Muslims were summarily executed

25     by the VRS?

Page 13993

 1        A.   People started talking about it just before the end of the war,

 2     but I didn't have any concrete information before the first trials to

 3     Erdemovic and Kremovic here.

 4        Q.   So when you say near the end of the war, what month are you

 5     talking about?

 6        A.   I cannot be precise about that.  But, in any case, semi- and

 7     unofficial information started appearing in newspaper articles, rumours,

 8     to the effect that something had happened and that humanitarian

 9     organisations are trying to locate people from Srebrenica.  But nobody in

10     Republika Srpska officially and publicly spoke about that.  I didn't have

11     any information about it, and I wasn't in the area until the end of the

12     war.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we have the page on the screen,

14     8633, but we can't see that there is a reference to testimony about these

15     events by the military police.  Can you check that, please.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I hadn't meant for it to come up,

17     but it's -- I just wanted to ask him about it.  And I realised that this

18     was testimony that's part of the record of this case at 92 bis, but it's

19     actually testimony from the Popovic case.  So it's not our -- that's the

20     reference for where it's in evidence, but I probably need some more

21     numbers for you to bring it up in this case.  And it wasn't my intention

22     to do that.  I don't think they'll be any disagreement that that

23     fundamentally was testified about.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was very helpful to have it on the screen.

25     Otherwise, later on we all would have trouble to find the right location.

Page 13994

 1     That may be checked later.

 2             Just continue, please.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it's PW-052, 92 bis, and that is the correct

 4     page from Popovic.

 5             And that was my last question.  Thank you for clarifying that for

 6     us.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             I take it you concluded your examination-in-chief.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, it's now your turn to commence your

11     cross-examination.  You have the floor.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             May God's peace reign in this house, and may God's will, not

14     mine, be done in these proceedings.

15             My greetings to Mr. McCloskey.  We are all pleased that he's

16     back.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My greetings to Mr. Keserovic as well.  I would like to

20     congratulate him for all his accomplishments.  Last time I saw him, he

21     was a lieutenant-colonel in the VRS.  In the meantime, he has become a

22     general and has obtained his doctorate, so my congratulations.

23        A.   Thank you.

24        Q.   We don't have much time, Mr. Keserovic, maybe 20 minutes at the

25     most, and we'll try to go back through the transcript to remind you of

Page 13995

 1     some of the discussions before my turn came.  But, please, before you

 2     answer, wait for the transcript to stop so that we wouldn't overlap.

 3             On several occasions during the previous session, you were asked

 4     about your stay in Bratunac together with Colonel Jankovic.  For

 5     instance, on page 44, line 21, you said:

 6             "Jankovic spoke English, and he was a member of the

 7     Intelligence Administration.  He was used for interpretation because he

 8     could speak two different languages."

 9             Do you remember saying that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was everyone in the administration aware of the fact

12     that Jankovic was there only to interpret, and that he was summoned to

13     Srebrenica precisely for that purpose; namely, just to be an interpreter?

14     Thank you.

15        A.   I was aware that Jankovic was used as an interpreter, and that is

16     why I was not aware what his precise role was within the

17     Intelligence Administration besides that.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please now look at

19     document 03884, and this document will help us understand why the

20     knowledge of various languages is of use for the

21     Intelligence Administration.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   There is a document on the screen now that was sent by the

24     Intelligence Administration to the Sections for Intelligence Affairs of

25     the Herzegovina Corps, Drina Corps, and to the Organ for Intelligence and

Page 13996

 1     Security Affairs of the IKM of the Herzegovina and Drina Corps.  It is

 2     stated here:

 3             "Activities of the NATO Air Force."

 4             And it says at 1344 hours, AWACS called two American aeroplanes,

 5     F-18, with code-name Thebault ^ 37, to fly over Gorazde, fly over the

 6     Gorazde, and record the situation there.  And later on, they were asked

 7     to fly over Serbian positions at supersonic speed and to be in touch with

 8     the British VON, code-name Fortune 95.  But until they come to that

 9     location, to stay in contact with them.

10             I apologise to the interpreters.

11             So this is mention of a situation where it was necessary to

12     translate communication between the aeroplane and the station.

13             Do you remember who in the administration was in charge of

14     translating such documents when they would reach us with written in

15     English on them?

16        A.   I'm not sure, but I think Captain or Major Mamlic also spoke a

17     foreign language.  Jankovic also knew some foreign language.  And was

18     there anyone else we used to translate for us?  I'm not able to recall at

19     the moment.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you mostly convey to Jankovic assignments that

21     were related to UNPROFOR, UNPROFOR, ICRC, and so on, which were a part of

22     the duties of our administrations because we were the ones who were in

23     contact with international factors and representatives?

24        A.   Yes, exclusively such assignments.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were all your contacts with Jankovic in Bratunac in

Page 13997

 1     relation to activities regarding UNPROFOR and UNHCR?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. McCloskey asked you on several occasions whether

 4     you conveyed Tolimir's orders.  My question is this:  Were those orders

 5     or were those tasks pertaining to the regular work of the organs in the

 6     sector?  Were those military tasks, military orders, or were those

 7     regular tasks?

 8        A.   Those were regular tasks.  Those that are carried out in the

 9     Intelligence and Security Sector, those were not military orders.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked, on page 56, about the tasks you

11     received, and you listed them.  For example, you mentioned the deployment

12     of newly-admitted officers who had just arrived from training.  You also

13     spoke about the deployment of new security organs.  You mentioned talks

14     with the Russian volunteers.  All that we can find on page 56, starting

15     with line 17.  And you said that you were to carry out those tasks from

16     the 18th, when you returned from Bratunac, up to the 23rd, when you went

17     to Drvar on a new assignment.

18             Is there a single military task among these?  You also mentioned

19     the fact that two monitors were supposed to arrive to supervise

20     negotiations between the VRS and Zepa.  Would you say that any of these

21     tasks is a military task?

22        A.   No, there is nothing outside of the purview of the normal work of

23     the sector.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Since you are familiar with the Rules of Service,

25     would you say that there is anywhere in the rules a ban on communications

Page 13998

 1     between officers and those employed in the Security Sector?  Thank you.

 2        A.   There's no such thing in the rules, there's no ban on

 3     communication.

 4        Q.   All of those tasks that you carried out together with Jankovic,

 5     the tasks you carried out after your arrival from Bratunac until the

 6     moment you left and went to Drvar, were they all within the purview of

 7     the work of the security organs, and were they all part of their

 8     professional duties?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Yes, they were all professional tasks.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could the Pre-Trial Chamber [as interpreted] admit this document

12     into evidence, the one that we have just called up on e-court?  Thank

13     you.  And then we will continue when Mr. McCloskey has had his say.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We received the interpretation "Pre-Trial

15     Chamber."  There is no Pre-Trial Chamber at the moment.  It is the

16     Trial Chamber.

17             Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  It may be a translation issue, but we're

19     getting a distinction between tasks, kind of regular tasks, and military

20     tasks.  And so, foundationally, if the general and the witness could

21     establish what they mean by that, it could have some meaning, but in

22     English it has no meaning because these are all the military men and

23     everything is a military task in that sense.  So unless foundationally

24     you establish what you mean, it has no meaning.  And, again, it's

25     probably translation, but I just want to point that out.

Page 13999

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not the first time that this question occurs

 2     here in this trial.

 3             First, we will mark this document on the screen for

 4     identification, pending translation.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3884 shall be

 6     assigned Exhibit D247, marked for identification pending translation.

 7     Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you have heard the desire of

 9     Mr. McCloskey.  You may clarify that or not.  Please carry on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             I would like to thank Mr. McCloskey for having corrected my

12     mistake.  I said "Pre-Trial Chamber."  It was not the interpreter who

13     made the mistake.  And now I'm going to ask Mr. Keserovic, and maybe he

14     can clarify the matter.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Keserovic, when a commander, in keeping with his own decision

17     or his own design, issues a task to all of us, are security organs or

18     members of the Security Sector duty-bound to work on the implementation

19     of such tasks?  Thank you.

20        A.   Yes, they are duty-bound to do that.  Everybody has to carry out

21     the commander's tasks.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Were we all subordinated to all those who were in

23     command positions in the commands of the brigades, corps, main staffs?

24     Did we report to them about our own work along the command line, along

25     the line of the chain of command?  Thank you.

Page 14000

 1        A.   Yes, we reported to the members of the command, to the assistant

 2     commanders, depending on where we worked, and we were responsible for our

 3     overall work before the commander.

 4        Q.   On several occasions, you asked whether I changed the commander's

 5     order.  I don't want to quote, but if necessary, I will provide

 6     references.  My question is this:  Did I change the commander's decision

 7     or was it the commander, himself, who changed his decision before you set

 8     out to carry out the tasks that he had given you?  Thank you.

 9        A.   You did not change the task or the order.  I believe that that's

10     what I said.  You conveyed the message to me, and you told me that the

11     commander, himself, had changed the task before I went on the mission.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Keserovic.  You were asked on page 44, line 7,

13     about that, but I didn't want to mention either the page or the line

14     before you answered.

15             My next question is this:  Did anybody, any of the organs,

16     including the chief of the Sector for Intelligence and Security, have the

17     right to issue any tasks or orders to the organs who were not on the

18     strength of either the sector or the administration?

19        A.   I'm afraid that I didn't understand your question.  You say

20     "task."  I didn't understand your question.  In professional terms and in

21     terms of professional control of counter-intelligence, if that is what

22     you meant, one could issue tasks from the sector and Administration for

23     Security to the Security Department, but those could not be military

24     tasks or orders, nor could security organs be taken out from the chain of

25     command in the unit that they belonged to.

Page 14001

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Since you performed different duties, starting with

 2     the platoon commander to your last position - you were also a corps

 3     commander and chief - can you tell us this:  If any other organ issued a

 4     command to any organ of the command, would you request clarification?

 5     Would you seek to find out why that order had been issued unbeknownst to

 6     you?

 7        A.   Yes.  The relationship in the command is indivisible.  The

 8     commander is the only one that can issue orders.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to professional bodies or organs, did

10     they have the right only to issue tasks to their own professional organs

11     at various levels or did they have the right to issue tasks and orders to

12     the commanders and their units?

13        A.   They could issue orders and tasks only to their own professional

14     organs.  They certainly couldn't issue orders to units, and that applied

15     to all organs, not only to security organs.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Keserovic.  Please, if you did not carry

17     out a task given to you by the commander, would you be taken to task by

18     myself or by the commander?  For example, just to illustrate the

19     situation, when you were sent to Bratunac to carry out the mission, who

20     were you responsible to?

21        A.   The commander of the Main Staff.

22        Q.   And would you have been taken to task by me if you had not

23     carried out my task; for example, if you had not briefed Jankovic about

24     the tasks that I had given you?

25        A.   I would have been taken to task first by you and then by the

Page 14002

 1     commander, I suppose.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  For grave breaches of discipline, for non-compliance

 3     with orders, which disciplinary bodies are authorised?  Do security

 4     organs report only to their professional superiors or do they also have

 5     to bear responsibility before courts?

 6        A.   They bear responsibility before military and disciplinary courts,

 7     civil courts, and commanders are command organs; wardens, chiefs and

 8     organs of that kind.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  As far as tasks, obligations and status issues of

10     officers in intelligence and security organs are concerned, is it the

11     chief of the sector who is in charge or is it true that some of them have

12     to be dealt with by the commander?

13        A.   All status issues are dealt with by the commander or the

14     authorised body is of the command.  Proposals may be given by the sector;

15     in other words, the chief of the sector or the chief of the relevant

16     administration.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Keserovic.  I believe that we have clarified the

18     issue that was raised by Mr. McCloskey.  If we have not been successful,

19     we can go on exploring the issue.  Maybe we can leave it to Mr. McCloskey

20     to raise the issue again in his redirect.  Thank you for your answers, in

21     any case.

22             Please, on page 22 of today's transcript, on line 6, you were

23     asked whether on the 16th of July, you knew that the unit of the BiH Army

24     had left Srebrenica and that it had walked over the Zvornik Brigade, and

25     that Blagojevic was supposed to go to Zepa on the day when you were with

Page 14003

 1     him in Bratunac.  Do you remember that, and could you understand the

 2     question, since you speak English?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember the question.

 4        Q.   Please, can you answer the following question:  What forces

 5     walked over, as the Prosecution put it, the area of responsibility of the

 6     Zvornik Brigade, they over-run that area of responsibility, and where did

 7     they open fire from against the Zvornik Brigade?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I think it got cleared up right at

 9     the end, but the term has been translated as "walked over," and I believe

10     I probably used the term "over-ran," which the translator got to

11     eventually.  But I think everyone agrees that it's "over-ran" is the

12     appropriate term in English, not -- well, "walked over" is another way of

13     saying it, but not a military way.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I remember very well that you used the word

15     "over-run," and, indeed, Mr. Tolimir used it as well.

16             Your answer, please, sir.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know today about what happened at

18     the time.  That evening, I didn't know, I didn't have that information.

19     However, I know today, according to estimates, some 7.000 or 8.000 people

20     from Srebrenica, from the 28th Division, and perhaps a few civilians

21     together with them, hit the area of defence of the Zvornik Brigade.  They

22     attacked from the rear.  They inflicted major losses on them.  And the

23     commander of the brigade decided to open the corridor to let them through

24     towards Tuzla, towards the zone of the 2nd Corps, because he simply could

25     not engage in combat with them because they were simply more powerful.

Page 14004

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Was that prevalence in power in terms of the numerical strength

 3     or also the technical strength?  Thank you.

 4        A.   At that moment, it was mostly the numerical strength of that

 5     division.  They had some infantry weapons that they could carry.

 6     However, as they were encountering the elements of combat order of the

 7     Zvornik Brigade, like artillery and orders, they would get hold of those

 8     and turned the barrels against the Zvornik Brigade.  However, I would say

 9     that the numerical element was prevalent in that case.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Keserovic.  As a soldier, would you be able to

11     analyse the military activity of the Muslim forces that had left

12     Srebrenica?  How would you term those activities?

13        A.   Here, we are talking about a forcible march.  That would be the

14     correct military terminology, and that would imply a movement involving

15     the use of all available means.  And in the final part, the activity was

16     an offensive from the rear against the Zvornik Brigade and the

17     Drina Corps, and those activities were in the direction of the

18     2nd Brigade of -- or 2nd Corps of the BiH.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us now look at D176.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And while we are waiting for it, I would like to say that this is

22     a document which was issued by the BiH Army, the Command of its

23     2nd Corps, on the 27th of July, 1995, and the title is "The chronology of

24     the breakthrough of the 28th Division."  It was sent to

25     General Rasim Delic.  The commander of that brigade was Sead Delic.

Page 14005

 1             Do you see the document now?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, excuse me.  I just see that it's

 4     getting late, and I don't have an estimate for cross-examination.  And we

 5     need to know tonight if we need to get ready for anything tomorrow, so

 6     if, before we quit, we could get that estimate, that would be very

 7     helpful.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I will finish whenever you tell me to finish, but not this

11     evening.  I can't finish within the next 15 minutes.  I have a lot of

12     questions, I have a lot to deal with.  There have been a lot of questions

13     put to the witness over the past two days.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, that was not the question.  We will

15     finish at 7.00 today, and it's very clear -- it's obvious that you can't

16     finish your cross-examination in the next two minutes.

17             You have indicated earlier that you will use three hours for

18     cross-examination.  Can you give us an update, as the Prosecution used

19     more than the estimated three hours at the beginning?  What is your

20     estimation for the whole of the cross-examination?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Through our contacts with the Registry, we said that we would

23     need as much time as the Prosecutor has used.  If you don't mind, we

24     would like to use that right.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You always should use your right.  It was just a

Page 14006

 1     question by Mr. McCloskey and by me.  That means six hours; is that

 2     correct?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Approximately, approximately six

 4     hours.  I'll try to finish even before that.  I'll try and make sure that

 5     I leave some time within my six hours for redirect, for additional

 6     questions by the Prosecutor.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Taking into account this information, it is very

 8     clear that we will not finish with the witness by tomorrow.  We will go

 9     further into the next week, I think.

10             After we have had this discussion, there is no reason for

11     continuation of cross-examination.  We should adjourn for the day.

12             You should be reminded, sir, there's no permission to have

13     contact with either party about the content of your examination.

14             We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow afternoon at 2.15 in this

15     courtroom.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of May,

19                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.