Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14251

 1                           Wednesday, 18 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             If there are no procedural matters, the witness should be brought

 7     in, please.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Welcome back to the

10     courtroom.  I have to remind that you the affirmation to tell the truth

11     you made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.

12             Mr. McCloskey is continuing his examination-in-chief.

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning.  Good

15     morning everybody.

16                           WITNESS:  MANOJLO MILOVANOVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

19        Q.   General, could we have that -- it may still be up there --

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21        Q.   Morning.  7937 on the organisation chart.  And, General, let me

22     get you the Serbian version again so you can look at that.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the court usher, yes,

24     please.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 14252

 1        Q.   I see you've got your magnifying glass.  It's a good idea.  I

 2     just want to ask you about a couple of things.  First of all, under

 3     General Tolimir's sector, we note that you -- that we have on this box,

 4     under Colonel Beara, is a Major Pecanac.  And this is for July of 1995.

 5     Is that your recollection that -- where he was?  We, I think, heard that

 6     he ... different -- different places for Major Pecanac, and I just

 7     wondered how good your recollection is, where he was in July 1995.

 8        A.   First of all, yesterday, during the discussions about the

 9     security and intelligence sector, I failed to mention two items.  The

10     intelligence administration had a body of analysts within its

11     composition.  The 410th Intelligence Centre that was gathering

12     information, analysing them, prioritising them, and determining who

13     within the system of command needs to be informed about the data

14     gathered.  This centre was located within the Banja Luka garrison, and it

15     was headed by Colonel Pero Jakovljevic.

16             The security administration under Colonel Beara also had a body

17     that was in charge of analytics, analytics of information that they were

18     preventing from leaking.  It was called KOG, counter-intelligence group,

19     headed by Lieutenant-Colonel Cedo Knezevic.  I believe it was also

20     located in Banja Luka, although I'm not sure about that.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And my question about Pecanac, how sure are you are

22     that he was there in the security sector as you've got him marked in your

23     diagram?

24        A.   Dragomir Pecanac was part of a 12-member group that included

25     myself on the 11th of May, at the time when the Staff was established.  I

Page 14253

 1     know that he was always around General Mladic.  I initially believed that

 2     he was chief of his security detail, but later Mr. Puhalo showed up, and

 3     he was on that duty, but Pecanac remained there and wherever Mladic would

 4     go, Pecanac would go along.  When Mladic would be going abroad for

 5     negotiations to Geneva, London and God knows where else, he would not

 6     take Pecanac but he would take instead my chief of -- or my head of

 7     security, Todic.  I believe that it was because my guy was better

 8     looking, so if you're going abroad you come up with something like that.

 9     I know that Pecanac was part of the security administration, and

10     throughout the war, up until I went to the western front, Pecanac was

11     always with Mladic.  He did have some vices and problems.  On one

12     occasion, he asked General Tolimir to relieve him of duty he had and to

13     put him as -- to appoint him as the Chief of Staff in the protection

14     regiment.  Tolimir initially didn't want to do it, but in the end, it

15     took place, but then he held that duty for maybe just a month and then

16     returned back to the security administration.

17             As far as I know, in July 1995, or, rather, throughout 1995,

18     Pecanac was predominantly with Mladic.  Mladic and I parted under not

19     best of terms.  On the 27th of April, 1997, I went to Banja Luka.  We

20     were, at that time, put at the disposal of the VRS.  In other words, we

21     were relieved of our duties at the time.  Later on, Pecanac --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies of the interpreter.

23        A.   General Mladic got in touch with me, and we became friends again

24     although there was not a real quarrel between us.  I was invited to his

25     son's marriage on 6th of --

Page 14254

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   -- June 1997.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and I just want to stay on

 5     this particular subject and I understand Pecanac spent time with Mladic.

 6     But what is your best recollection on what unit, sector, administration,

 7     or whatever, Pecanac was part of?  You know, in the formal sense, if he

 8     was, in July of 1995?  We've -- you've -- we see him here in the sector

 9     for intel and security and I need to know if that is correct to the best

10     of your recollection or not.  In which case, we'll move him out.

11        A.   It is correct.  Formally he was within the

12     security administration.

13        Q.   And do you know if -- would that apply for August, September,

14     October of 1995 as well?

15        A.   I don't know whether it would apply for the months you just

16     mentioned, but I do know that Pecanac was, throughout that period, still

17     together with General Mladic.

18        Q.   Okay.  And I don't want to go over the rest of the boxes, but I

19     do want to -- have you had a chance to look at these boxes and confirm

20     your recollection that the people in them and the placement of them in

21     this chart is correct?

22        A.   Just a moment.  Let me collect my thoughts.

23        Q.   And, of course, we see all the corps as on other -- some other

24     units at the bottom, so that my question would apply to those as well.

25        A.   There, at the bottom of the chart, that's okay.  I've checked

Page 14255

 1     that.  I've made all the corrections.  There were just some staff units

 2     that were not put -- staff units that were not put in and air defence.

 3     But the bottom part of this scheme, organigram, as you call it, according

 4     to me, everything is correct.  But on the first document provided by you,

 5     I put a question mark next to Lieutenant Pelemis's name.  I did not know

 6     that, at the time he was the commander of the sabotage detachment.

 7        Q.   All right.  And we see -- you'll see up in the right-hand corner,

 8     there's the administration for air force and air defence.  And this,

 9     General, you may recall, is the -- this, you recently revised in the last

10     few months or days with Mr. Blaszczyk.  So just take a good, careful look

11     at it, so if we know if -- if you stand by it?

12        A.   It's the administration for air force and air defence.  It was

13     headed by General Jovo Maric, yes, that's correct.  However, in the

14     period since my departure for the western front, in other words, 29th of

15     May, 1995, and up until the end, General Jovo Maric was member of the

16     staff with me.  He was my deputy in the west, and he spent this entire

17     period together with me.  He died in a traffic accident in 1996, after

18     the war, and he was replaced by Colonel Radoslav Pandzic, I can see that

19     name here as well.  There were not that many people in that

20     administration.  For a while, there was Lieutenant-Colonel and then later

21     General, Miletic, but I took him into the staff, and in his stead

22     Lieutenant-Colonel Niko Dzajo [phoen], a rocket man came but since that

23     administration wasn't very busy because the Main Staff would go through

24     the command of the air force in -- in all the context that had had to do

25     with air force, and they were mainly in charge of aeroplane guidance and

Page 14256

 1     we took this job also from there and put him in the position of the

 2     3rd Petrovac Brigade.  So there were three people who were part of the

 3     administration, Maric, Pandzic and the third man.

 4        Q.   And now as you look at this document, does it look correct to

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes.  Even during the proofing, I told you that the segment

 7     related to the administration for air force and air defence was done

 8     properly here on the chart.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence at this time,

11     Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 7397 shall be

14     assigned exhibit number P2226.  Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

16        Q.   Now --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This be a convenient time to raise the question

18     what about the other chart we have seen earlier in this trial?  We -- you

19     promised yesterday that we would receive a hard copy of that.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  And I think now is a good

21     time, since we've finished with this one, that you -- you get the other

22     one so you can compare them and things.  I just wanted to go one at a

23     time, and so we had provided that to the -- to the Registrar.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is 7295, for the record, the one you're

Page 14257

 1     now just getting in hard copy.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you tendered this already.  I would just like

 3     to know which -- on which basis you made the corrections in comparison to

 4     the last one we have seen.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It was the testimony, as he was going through it

 6     during his testimony.  He made a few changes from what he had originally

 7     said, and so we went through the testimony and made the changes

 8     reflecting that we saw on the testimony.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you are referring now to the witness

10     Salapura, or was it ...

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness Obradovic, yes, I forgot.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So had I --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is correct.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document will be received as well.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7259 shall be

18     assigned exhibit number P2227.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

22        Q.   General, do you recall a New Year's celebration with

23     General Mladic?  I believe it was from 1995 to 1996, and there was a

24     video of it?

25        A.   Could have been only 1996.  The New Year 1995 I was in Drvar.  I

Page 14258

 1     don't think it was even the New Year's reception because that year I was

 2     in Gradiska.

 3        Q.   All right, I will play a bit of that to see what you can tell us

 4     about it.  And I'll just ask you one or two questions.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, this is a clip that we have

 6     taken from P1029; but because it's a targeted clip to save time we have

 7     given it another number, 65 ter 7388.  And, of course, the other one is

 8     already in evidence.  And to save a bit of further time, I'm just going

 9     to take a clip, a clip of the clip, to ask the General about.  So if we

10     could start this, Ms. Stewart can handle this at 18.16.00, and we'll play

11     that for a short time, and it should be subtitled and we will have a

12     transcript provided to you as well.  But this is fundamentally subtitled

13     for this particular purpose.  I hope.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "[VOICEOVER]: I think that the credit for what we have today goes

16     to the Serbian People as a whole and particularly to the Serbs west of

17     the Drina river" --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should stop for a moment.  I was told this was

19     under seal.  I don't why.  The Registrar told us -- told me just now that

20     the subtitle of this document, there is something mentioning of under

21     seal.  I don't know why.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, Mr. President.  I don't why either --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the -- the Registrar will explain it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the surrogate sheet contains the 65

25     ter number and the indication that it is under seal, CD.  Thank you.

Page 14259

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am sorry, I didn't handle this

 3     detail earlier.

 4             The original exhibit that I mentioned to you had an under seal

 5     segment to it, nothing related to -- to this event.  So if I could move

 6     for this exhibit not to be under seal.  There's no reason it should be.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I immediately would agree because this -- we have

 8     seen this earlier and there can't be any reason to put it under seal.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me one second.  I just need to get this

10     right.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I am told that this particular

14     clip is connected to some of these that do -- are under seal.  But this

15     part is not.  There's no reason to have this under seal, and we'll sort

16     this out so we don't bump into something that's under seal.  I apologise

17     about that.  I didn't realize the problem.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.  This specific

19     part can't be under seal.  You should move on.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I -- I think if we could just -- and I think

21     it's important, of course, for the General that we don't have the --

22     well, I know he can hear it through the B/C/S.  I don't think we need the

23     translation.  I think it is probably better to hear General Mladic and

24     try to read the subtitles, but, of course, that's your call.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

Page 14260

 1             Is there a separate document where we can read the subtitles?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We -- we don't.  There is a transcript that's

 3     coming.  I don't have that for you now.  But it will come for your

 4     later -- for your later review, because I know I always try to do that

 5     and somehow that has not caught up with this exhibit yet.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Go ahead, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we're stopping at 20.28.4.

 9        Q.   Now, General, do you recognise when this was?

10        A.   If I have seen the whole clip, maybe I would have remembered.

11     But I assume this is the moment when the Medal of Karadjordje Star First

12     Class was handed to General Mladic and myself.  This was in one of the

13     huts where we had our dining hall.  That was the biggest of the huts

14     there, and we would usually gather there when the group was larger.  I

15     believe that this is it.  It is not a New Year's celebration.  It not

16     Mladic's birthday either.  Because the New Year celebration that we spent

17     together and on the occasion when Mladic birthday was, we were both

18     wearing civilian clothes.  I see Mladic is here in his uniform and I'm --

19     suspect that Mladic would say here in the clip why the gathering, what

20     was the purpose of the gathering.  But I do think it was on the occasion

21     of receiving the decoration.  What he did was he handed over the

22     decoration to his wife and put me in a tight spot.  My wife was also

23     there and I should have done the same, but the Medals of Karadjordje and

24     of Obradovic --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction, of Nemanjic.

Page 14261

 1        A.   -- can be only be handed over to male family members.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll sort out precisely when this is.  But the

 4     main question I wanted to ask you about was whether or not you agreed

 5     with General Mladic when he mentioned that the inner core of the

 6     Main Staff was yourself, Generals Djukic, Gvero, and Tolimir.

 7        A.   Yes, yes, he mentioned Generals Grubor and Skrbic.  He mentioned

 8     actually, the chief of the sectors in the Main Staff, his immediate

 9     assistants, actually.  He just briefly mentioned two chiefs of

10     administration, these are Generals Tomic and Maric.  Other than Mladic, I

11     don't see anyone else in this video footage, so I can really not tell

12     what meeting it is, but I was telling you yesterday almost the entire day

13     about the way decisions were made in the Main Staff and this is exactly

14     what General Mladic confirmed.  Some ideas or initial decisions were made

15     by the two of us at a plank in front of the hut.  We used to go there and

16     sit there for hours.  General Miletic always used to joke when the two of

17     us would get up from that plank.  He would say, Us operatives are

18     sharpening our pencils, meaning a decision had been made.  What the two

19     of us by ourselves concluded would later then go on to the Main Staff, to

20     one of those meetings of ours, whether it was the morning one or the

21     evening one, either one, and then I explained the procedure of how

22     decisions were made.  If it was a strategic decision, then we would call

23     the corps to participate in the final decision.

24        Q.   Thank you, General.  And we do recall that.

25             Let me go back to the beginning of the video to see if that will

Page 14262

 1     help refresh your recollection, and otherwise we'll sort that out a bit

 2     later.  But if we should go to the beginning, it should be around

 3  Actually 0032.

 4             Now, that is OTP labelling and that's not what we want to rely on

 5     here, so I want to rely on you.  So let's play it from there and see if

 6     there's anything that you can help us with.  Starting at 17.03.0.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   First of all, can you tell us who these people are, starting from

10     the right and moving towards the left of the screen.

11        A.   To the right, it's General Gvero.  He is smoking.

12             Next to him with his hand on his chin is General Milovanovic.

13     That's me, worrying.

14             To the right of me, judging by the curly hair, that's my wife.

15             To the right of her is General Mladic.

16             To the right of General Mladic is General Mladic's wife.

17             This is what you can see on this footage.

18             I don't know, but, at the beginning, I saw the date the 13th of

19     January, 1996.  And now I'm actually sure that's the occasion when

20     General Mladic and I were decorated.

21        Q.   All right.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record we stopped at 17.14.1.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh.  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Let's let it play a bit more.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14263

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Well, I want to see if you can recognise the person that's

 3     standing to General Mladic's -- or sitting, sorry, and to

 4     General Mladic's right.  You had it, right there.  Yeah.  Can you make

 5     out that -- and it's 17.21.4.  And it's not a very clear shot.

 6        A.   This is the chief of the financial administration,

 7     Major-General Stevo Tomic.

 8        Q.   And let's just play this for a bit to see if this helps.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   General, I don't know if that helps you, but you can see that

12     General Mladic is saying that General Tolimir is off battling dragons in

13     Vienna.  Do you know what time-frame that would be?

14        A.   This is after the war.  This is early 1996, because Tolimir

15     participated in the delegation of Republika Srpska in Dayton.  I said

16     yesterday that he was considered to be as the most skillful diplomat

17     amongst us and he was part of the Presidency or actually the political

18     delegation of Republika Srpska at various negotiations.  I don't know

19     exactly what the negotiations were about in Vienna at the time, but I

20     know that after that, after the war stopped, Tolimir mostly was the one

21     who travelled abroad following -- or escorts Krajisnik or Karadzic, or

22     whoever went as a representative of the Republika Srpska leadership.  He

23     was there representing the army.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you, General.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I think we should just keep

Page 14264

 1     this marked, and I will try to offer it separately once we make sure

 2     it's -- it's separated out.  And we ended at 18.13.2.  And -- because it

 3     will get used again relatively soon and we'll have that -- that sorted

 4     out for you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That will be marked for

 6     identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7388 shall be

 8     assigned exhibit number P2228, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   And, General, I also wanted to go -- you'll recall sitting down

11     with Mr. Blaszczyk and going over a chart of offices.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could have 65 ter 2050 up on the screen.

13        Q.   Do you remember going over the chart of offices in the -- in

14     those proof -- what you called pre-fab buildings at Crna Rijeka?

15        A.   I see the same diagram on both screens.  And now there is another

16     one.

17             Yes, I remember you gave this to me during my testimony in 2007.

18     There were many empty boxes, so you asked me to write in with an ordinary

19     pencil the names that were missing in the boxes.  This is 1995, and from

20     what I can see here, I was really not able to help you very much.

21             The diagram on the left-hand side where it says "main entrance",

22     that is the prefabricated hut where the inner core of the Main Staff was

23     located.  These were both working and sleeping rooms.  What do you need

24     me to comment that I should agree with the diagram?  Not agree?  Or do

25     you need me to explain anything?

Page 14265

 1        Q.   Well, General.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, for the Court,

 3     Your Honours, this was the original diagram that is -- Mr. Salapura

 4     provided the Court.  We then provided it to General Milovanovic for his


 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And, General, I just want to go over the circled marks because

 8     those reflected your comments.  So if we can start with the left-hand

 9     side, that's at the bottom of our screen, we see a circle with an X in

10     it, where you seem to have X'd out that Milovanovic's security and

11     sleeping, which was what Salapura had provided, and you have put in

12     helicopter pilots; is that correct?

13        A.   You're asking me?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   Actually, it's the other way around.  On the left-hand side of

16     the circled box where it says helicopter pilots, that's my handwriting.

17     That's the diagram that I was looking at.  The right-hand side could be

18     Salapura's.  Because it is incorrectly stated there, that this is

19     Milovanovic's security, but if it says -- I mean, if he considered the

20     helicopter pilots to be part of my security, that's one thing, but that's

21     wrong.  I had different security.  I just want to say that my version is

22     correct in relation to Salapura's.  I'm going to prove that.  16, it

23     says, Maric.  Actually, this is where the air force administration was

24     located, and the helicopter pilots were right there across the hall for

25     him to be able to monitor what they were doing and for him to keep them

Page 14266

 1     close by because they were his subordinates.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Milovanovic, can you help us?  Which entries,

 3     handwritten entries, are made by yourself?  On the bottom of the -- this

 4     sketch.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote in helicopter pilots.

 6     Something else was written there.  Then I crossed it out.  I don't know

 7     what was written there before.  I'm not able to see it.  Actually, what

 8     it said was Milovanovic's security.  But my security was actually located

 9     in another room.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I just wanted to know which part was

11     made by you.

12             Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

14        Q.   General, thank you for correcting that.  Now let's go to the top

15     of the page where we can see -- looks like two offices and they're noted

16     as "Mladic," "Milovanovic," and then in parentheses "(Miletic)," and then

17     next to is "Milovanovic sleeping quarters".  All of that is circled and

18     then there is some handwritten to the left that says:  "In Milovanovic's

19     absence."

20             Who wrote:  "In Milovanovic's absence"?

21        A.   That's my handwriting.  I put that.  I explained yesterday that

22     Mladic and I used one office, in order to save space since we were rarely

23     at the Main Staff at the same time.  Then, depending on which one of us

24     was absent, General Miletic would jump in as my deputy, so Mladic always

25     had with him either the Chief of Staff or his deputy.  That's why

Page 14267

 1     Miletic's name is in parentheses and that's why I wrote "In Milovanovic's

 2     absence".  I would have also written in Mladic's absence, because the

 3     same thing happened if Mladic was absent.  I would bring Miletic to that

 4     so that we could work together.  Otherwise, Miletic was actually located

 5     in the operations centre, because the operations centre is part of his

 6     organ, the operations administration.

 7        Q.   All right.  And we see "main entrance" there circled at the top

 8     of this.  Did you write that or did someone else?

 9        A.   Yes, that's my handwriting.  We marked that as the main entrance

10     because you could -- you entered the hut from the front, from the road.

11     There was another entrance of the same capacity down there but we

12     considered that to be an auxiliary entrance because mostly we would use

13     that for exiting.  It was narrow.  We would enter through the main

14     entrance and we would exit through that exit at the bottom.  You can't

15     really see it.  It was next to that office where there is the word

16     "Pandzic" next to it.  So we did this in order to avoid passing each

17     other in the hall, which was narrow.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, to make it perfectly clear,

20     and I'm sure Mr. Gajic will agree with me, this is one of the buildings

21     where we were on the site visit.

22        Q.   So we also see on the right side of the picture -- well, four

23     circles outside of the building itself.  The first one is written

24     "Colonel Trkulja with another officer," and the second one mentions

25     "Colonel Djurdjevic" and "Colonel Masal".  The third circle mentions

Page 14268

 1     "Colonel Pandzic".  And the fourth one mentions "administration of air

 2     force and anti-aircraft defence".

 3             Did you write in all of that information, all of those four

 4     circles, to add to the correctness of this diagram?

 5        A.   Yes.  This is my handwriting, and I made these circles next to

 6     the boxes, because the boxes were small, and something was already

 7     written there in a foreign language.  So I just wanted to actually

 8     indicate the names of people who were there, corresponding to the boxes.

 9     It was not my intention to indicate that anybody was outside of the hut.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And so the rest of the information that we see here,

11     the -- says "the blue room" at the top and then we see "Gvero,"

12     "Tolimir," and the other information, do you agree with it, that it is

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.  And this is proof that the sketch dates from 1995 because

15     in the beginning in 1992 when we first got together, the box where it

16     says "blue room" was where General Gvero was located.  And then later we

17     moved him one box down so that we could have a room where the inner core

18     of the Main Staff could meet.  There were blue chairs in the room, that's

19     why we called it the blue room.  That began to function from 1995.  Until

20     1995, this was the room where Gvero slept.  Actually, it was his office

21     and also the room that he slept in.

22        Q.   All right.  And you'll recall being asked this before.  But do

23     you recall the telephone extension for your office as it's marked here?

24        A.   It was extension 155.  A military phone extension.  It was the

25     telephone of the Main Staff, and it had my name because I was the Chief

Page 14269

 1     of Staff, the most senior officer in the staff.  Last time I explained

 2     that this telephone did play a role like a public telephone box.  If

 3     anybody wanted anybody in the Main Staff, everything would go through

 4     that number because we knew where everybody was.

 5             Next to the Mladic, Milovanovic office there was an extension in

 6     the next room, the one labelled "Milovanovic sleeping quarters," and then

 7     also there was a line going to the operations centre.  That is room 3.

 8     It was also connected to the building where Mladic was sleeping and it

 9     was also corrected to the subterranean command post which I explained

10     yesterday was the room of the Chief of the Staff.  So the whole

11     operations crew, some 20 to 30 people including the courier, had access

12     to that number.

13        Q.   All right.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this into evidence.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2050 shall be

17     assigned exhibit number P2229.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Judge Mindua has a question.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just a small

20     clarification question.

21             On page 18 of the transcript, line 22, you stated, I quote:

22     "That it was room number 3, which was connected to the building in which

23     General Mladic was spending his nights" or was staying overnight.  Is

24     this building on this chart here in your sketch, or was it a bit farther

25     away?

Page 14270

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a separate building.  It's

 2     some 1 or 1.5 kilometres away from that place and it was at the entrance

 3     to the underground command post, and it was used as a camouflage,

 4     actually, from an aerial view.  It looked like some kind of weekend house

 5     or a villa but underneath it was actually the entrance to the underground

 6     command post.  What we see on the diagram was a wooden prefabricated hut.

 7     It was aboveground, whereas the villa where Mladic was sleeping was a

 8     building made of bricks and mortar and that's where Mladic was sleeping,

 9     and it was at the entrance to the underground command post.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Was there a basement which

11     connected this command post to General Mladic's villa?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Underneath the building there was a

13     garage.  Again, as camouflage, so that passers-by, when they went by,

14     would see the weekend house with a garage.  However, from the garage, you

15     would enter the corridor of the underground command post, and these

16     corridors would branch off from the main path.  Yesterday I said it was

17     like a small subterranean town.  It had been worked on for some 18 years

18     after World War II and it was the command post of Marshal Tito.  They say

19     he just spent 20 minutes there, when it was first put into operation, and

20     during the war, his rooms were most frequently used and were a favourite

21     place of General Gvero, because there was a bathroom there as well, and

22     other amenities.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I just

24     wanted to clarify this, because in fact the Trial Chamber went to see the

25     premises on the ground, on site.

Page 14271

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Allow me to put an additional question to finally

 2     clarify this:

 3             Was it possible to get from the barracks we have the chart on the

 4     screen now to go to Mladic's villa and the underground facilities but --

 5     by a tunnel; or are you talking about a telephone connection between

 6     these two buildings?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no tunnel.  There was a

 8     natural ditch that would lead to beneath Mladic's building and then there

 9     was a sharp incline.  I usually avoided taking that path but I would take

10     the roundabout path because the incline was not so steep.

11             There was a telephone line.  It wasn't underground.  It was a

12     field telephone cable.  It was a temporary solution.  There was no tunnel

13     between the hut and the underground command post.  And since I can see

14     that this is creating some confusion.  I can see it is creating some

15     confusion, this problem why Mladic was sleeping in a separate building.

16     It wasn't a question of comfort.  It was just that because of the rules,

17     the deputy and the commander are not supposed to spend the nights at the

18     same place in case one of them was killed.  That rule also applied to

19     when we were driving.  We were not permitted to drive together in the

20     same vehicle.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this clarification.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And can you tell us, during those war years, what was this --

25     Mladic's building where he slept, what did you normally refer to it as?

Page 14272

 1        A.   We referred to it as Mladic's villa.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we now go to exhibit 65 ter 2363.  And

 4     there's an English -- should be an English translation as well.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is no English translation.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Perhaps we should get the ELMO up.  I'm sorry, I

 7     don't know what the problem was.  But this is an English translation.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Usher will put the English translation on the

 9     ELMO.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Though it's ...

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But you can't have both at the same time on the

12     screen.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

14        Q.   General, can you tell us, while we're getting the ELMO fired up,

15     what this is?

16        A.   This is the Main Staff telephone directory, updated in

17     August 1995.

18        Q.   And let's go to the next page in the -- in the B/C/S.  In the

19     Serbian.  And the next page.  And the next page.

20             And just in reviewing this, perhaps we could flip over to the

21     ELMO to see what we've got.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we -- could we have this -- the respective

23     English page on the ELMO.

24             Is this the right page, Mr. McCloskey?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  That's the first page.  If we could blow it

Page 14273

 1     up so we can see the whole book -- I mean, the whole page.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could it be moved a bit further up?

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, the audio guys -- thank you.

 4             All right.  We see just a series of phone numbers there.  Can we

 5     go to the next page in the English?  On the ELMO.  Thanks.  And if you

 6     can -- we can see -- what we need to get the -- the General's -- if we

 7     could back -- back to e-court to that page in -- yes.

 8        Q.   So I'm sorry to have to make you remember both those things.

 9     General, do you see your extension right down here?

10        A.   I can see it.  The second line from the bottom.  Military

11     automatic telephone switchboard with G-1.  G-1 was the underground

12     command location I have been talking about the past two days.  The last

13     line is the automatic telephone switchboard at the post office in

14     Belgrade.

15             Yes, I can see it.

16        Q.   All right.  I -- I won't go through the -- the entire book at

17     this point, and it speaks for itself.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I would just offer this into evidence.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, we can only mark it for

22     identification at the moment.  The English translation should be uploaded

23     first.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be marked for identification, pending

Page 14274

 1     translation.  And the ELMO should be switched off.  No, it's not switched

 2     off.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 2363 shall be assigned

 4     exhibit number P2230.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Marked for identification, indeed, pending

 6     translation.

 7             Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 9        Q.   General, I want to now take you briefly back to May 11, 1992.

10     And again, briefly, and -- can you tell us on May 12th, where were you

11     and where was most of the rest of the -- the staff on May 12th?

12        A.   On the 12th of May of 1992, I was in the Main Staff in the huts.

13     I organised the work of the Main Staff and established communication

14     links with our subordinates.  I also drafted bulletins and orders and

15     notifications concerning the tasks we had been issued with the previous

16     night.

17             The rest of the Main Staff, or that is to say, the core of the

18     Main Staff was in Banja Luka, attending the assembly session when the

19     decision was made on the establishment of the armed forces.

20        Q.   Do you know if, at that time, Colonel Tolimir went to Banja Luka

21     to that assembly session?

22        A.   I know that everyone disappeared from the Main Staff, save

23     from -- for myself.  So I think he went to Banja Luka too.  Mladic did,

24     Gvero, did, Djukic did, and I think Tolimir did too.  They all got in a

25     helicopter in the morning and disappeared from the area of the

Page 14275

 1     Main Staff.

 2        Q.   All right.  Can we go to P00022.  And if we could blow up the

 3     Serbian part that has the numbers 1 through 6 on the left side so that

 4     the General can read it.

 5             And, General, we can see here that this is a -- a segment of the

 6     report on the May 12th assembly session.  It's the -- what's referred to

 7     as the Official Gazette.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   What I have before me is correct.  These are the six strategic

 9     objectives.

10             Could we please scroll up in the Serbian so that can I see the

11     very bottom of the page.  Not that far.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's an indication that this is from 1992.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   Yes, is that correct?  Is that the day that you're talking about,

15     that you were alone at Crna Rijeka and everyone else went to Banja Luka

16     to an assembly session?

17        A.   It says that the decision was reached on May 12, 1992, which is

18     on the day when I was left alone in the Main Staff.

19             What I'm looking for, though, is when this decision was published

20     because there is much to say about it.  If you wanted me to.

21        Q.   Actually the issue of when it was published to the public is not

22     an issue that I wanted to ask you about.  If you feel it's a -- needs to

23     be mentioned as part of your answer, of course, that's absolutely

24     important and you can do that.

25             But before we get there, I just want to -- can you confirm, or

Page 14276

 1     not, that this decision on strategic objectives was adopted by the

 2     assembly on May 12th?

 3        A.   I was looking for the date of publication for the very reason.

 4     These are the strategic objectives of the war, of the RS.  We can see

 5     that there are six.  I will not go into the contents.  The political

 6     leadership of the RS met for the first time with the representatives of

 7     the Main Staff.  That is to say, with Mladic, myself, and Tolimir, I

 8     believe, on the 16th of May, four days following this assembly session.

 9             The first thing the generals asked for were the goals or the

10     objectives of the war, so as to be able to define the Main Staff's

11     strategy of waging war.  We had inherited two concepts of waging war.  On

12     that occasion, we did not receive those war objectives, therefore we

13     construed them ourselves based on the tasks we had issued us between the

14     11th and 12th of May, in order to start waging war and carry out

15     mobilisation.  I heard for the first time of the strategic objectives in

16     the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the proceedings against

17     Slobodan Milosevic, when Witness Sefer Halilovic referred to it.  At the

18     beginning of the war he was the commander in chief of the Muslim forces.

19     I also read the text for the first time on the Internet at the time which

20     was sometime in 2004 or 2005.  In the newspaper where I was able to read

21     the text, I also saw that the decision was published in the

22     Official Gazette in March 1993, meaning almost a full year later,

23     following the assembly decision.

24        Q.   While we're there, can we now, with the Serbian side, go over to

25     the right and show the right corner.

Page 14277

 1             We see a date up there.  Is that the date -- should that be the

 2     gazette, the date the gazette was published?

 3        A.   Then it is even worse than I thought.  The date here is the 26th

 4     of November, 1993.  So a year and a half later following the decision or

 5     the date when the decision was made.

 6             None of the participants at the assembly could confirm to me that

 7     it was at that session that this decision was made.  And if -- if it was,

 8     they couldn't say why it was not shown to the Main Staff.  We kept

 9     zigzagging, trying to pinpoint our wartime objectives, and it would have

10     been far easier for us to have these six goals, because then we would

11     have been able to organise and direct the army in order to pursue those

12     strategic objectives.

13        Q.   Let me just ask you about number 1.  It says:  "Establish state

14     borders separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic

15     communities."

16             What is your understanding of the meaning of that?

17        A.   It would mean that, following the Dayton Accords, state border

18     between the two entities should have been created along the ethnic lines.

19     At the time, the RS existed as a socio-political entity, and the

20     Croat/Muslim entity was not put in any particular territorial boundaries.

21     What existed there was also the Herceg-Bosna.  Until the Dayton Accords,

22     the boundaries were never drawn between the entities.  Therefore, we

23     didn't know how far ahead we could go with the army or what territories

24     we had to abandon.

25        Q.   Well, General --

Page 14278

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May this

 3     day be concluded in keeping with God's will and not necessarily my own.

 4     I'd like to greet General Milovanovic, wish him a very pleasant stay with

 5     us.

 6             The general said he saw the first -- this decision for the first

 7     time after the war during the Milosevic trial, and Mr. McCloskey is

 8     asking him about it.  Could this be clarified, please?  Is he asking the

 9     General about the contents, which is something the General only saw after

10     the war; or is he asking him about the war itself?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this is an strong

12     background noise when the accused turns on his microphone.  There seems

13     to be a technical problem.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The technical problem shall be resolved during

15     the break.

16             Mr. Tolimir, I think it was clear on the record that the witness

17     stated he saw this document the first time during the Milosevic trial.

18     But you are now rising.  Indeed, this is on the record.  You can follow

19     up with that.

20             Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   General, we see this is dated the 12th of May.  If that is

23     correct, clearly, the idea of a peace agreement, especially at a place

24     called Dayton, Ohio, is certainly a long way off.  So when you mentioned

25     Dayton in your answer, can you be a little clearer?  When it says:

Page 14279

 1     "Establish state borders separating the Serbian people from the other two

 2     ethnic communities," can you tell us, first of all, what are the other

 3     two ethnic communities that's referred to?  To your knowledge, now, as we

 4     sit in this courtroom today.

 5        A.   The Muslims and Croats.  Because, as early as April 1992, they

 6     had formed a coalition.  They joined up forces against the Serbs in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   And did you, at some point, on or after May 12th, understand that

 9     this was an objective, to establish state borders separating the Serbian

10     people from the Muslim people and the Croat people?

11        A.   I understood that back when I was in Macedonia, when, on the 9th

12     of January, the decision was made to establish Republika Srpska.  It

13     included the former SAOs, the independent Serb or autonomous Serb regions

14     of the Krajina, Posavina and Semberija, as well as the Sarajevo-Romanija

15     plateau and Herzegovina.  Those were the regions with predominantly Serb

16     population.  By virtue of that declaration on the establishment of

17     Republika Srpska as an independent state within Bosnia-Herzegovina,

18     Republika Srpska was created, as such.  Political bodies were being

19     formed in the area, and this is when a paradox occurred concerning the

20     reasons for the establishment of armed forces.  If you want me to, I may

21     elaborate on it further; if not, let's move on.

22        Q.   Let me just -- and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this,

23     as we can see a political document.  But, just --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it possible that Judge Nyambe puts a question

25     at this point in time?

Page 14280

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Please.

 2             JUDGE NYAMBE:  General, I wonder if you can clarify for me at

 3     page 28, line 20 you are recorded as having said:  "I understood that

 4     back when I was in Macedonia, when on 9th of January ..."

 5             Which year are you referring to?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   And, General, we see that this number 1 clearly talks about -- it

11     says "separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic

12     communities."

13             Now, the Trial Chamber, the world knows, that Bosnia was fully

14     mixed.  Serbs lived close to and with Muslims and Croats throughout

15     Bosnia.  How can such an objective be achieved like that, given that

16     reality of how people are living on the ground?  And, again, just -- I

17     know we could discuss this for days, but could you just give us a short

18     idea of that particular conundrum, or paradox, if you will?

19        A.   Although Bosnia and Herzegovina resembled and still does a

20     melting pot, or a tiger's skin, as regards the mixture of population that

21     pattern, still, had certain specific areas.  There are such areas where

22     the Serbs are in the majority.  Then there are such areas where we have

23     the Muslims in the majority, or Croats.  Roughly speaking, in Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina as a whole, there were 31.7 per cent Serbs, 42 or 43 per cent

25     Muslims, and 17.5 per cent Croats.  However, they were grouped more or

Page 14281

 1     less.  The Serbs were predominantly in the Krajina, Eastern Bosnia and

 2     Eastern Herzegovina.  The Muslims dominated Central Bosnia around

 3     Sarajevo and Zenica and in the area between Doboj and Sarajevo.  The

 4     Croats lived in Central Bosnia but towards the outskirts of that area in

 5     the Lasva Valley, on Mount Vlasic and in Travnik and Bugojno.  So the

 6     ethnic communities were grouped in a way, or concentrated.  In the area

 7     of what is now the Federation of the Bosnia-Herzegovina, out of the total

 8     number of inhabitants before the war, there were 17 per cent Serbs.  That

 9     is to say, out of the total number of Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, 17

10     per cent of them lived in the Federation territory.  Meaning that 83

11     per cent of them were concentrated in the areas I just enumerated, in the

12     Krajina, Semberija, Eastern Bosnia, Romanija, and Eastern Herzegovina.

13     Under such circumstances, an ethnic division could have been carried out,

14     in order to separate the communities.  Such agreement was, indeed,

15     reached in Lisbon, as part of the Cutileiro Plan and this gave hope for

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina to steer clear of the war.

17             However, on the way back to Sarajevo, on the plane,

18     Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature.  And what I heard was that

19     Zimmerman, US ambassador in Belgrade talked him into doing so.

20     Warren Zimmerman, I believe.  Once the plane landed, no one awaited him.

21     There were no assistants of his.  Only the commander of the 2nd Army

22     awaited him, as well as General MacKenzie of UNPROFOR.  Then they took

23     him to Lukavica and Alija tried to picture that as his kidnapping.  In

24     any case, to cut things short, it was possible to carry out such a

25     division among the ethnic communities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That

Page 14282

 1     agreement was reached, then annulled, and was only implemented because of

 2     the Dayton Accords.  However, we were not accorded the status of states,

 3     neither the RS nor the Federation.  We were only accorded the status of

 4     entities which is a step lower than a state.  It amounts to some 70

 5     per cent of statehood prerogatives in total.

 6        Q.   General, are you suggesting that Dayton Accords supported the

 7     division in Bosnia of peoples by ethnicity?  It's a simple question, a

 8     simple answer.

 9        A.   Yes.  We must say, though, that the Muslims and Croats

10     voluntarily joined a single entity.  It's a matter that was part of the

11     Washington Agreement of March 1, 1994.  The Dayton Accords simply copied

12     that solution and changed the name.  They were no longer to the

13     Muslim/Croat federation, but the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think we should end that discussion now, and

15     it's time for the break.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed.  We must have our first break now,

17     and we will resume at 11.00.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, as I look at my outline I hope to

20     finish in the next -- sometime in the next break.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, you're very optimistic.  Thank you.

22             We adjourn.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

Page 14283

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

 3        Q.   All right.  General, you had mentioned briefly.  Now I want to

 4     take us to July 1995, where you had told us you were on the western front

 5     and that you had come back to the Crna Rijeka area for

 6     General Zivanovic's retirement party or going-away function.

 7             So could you just tell us what date did you come back to the area

 8     and where did you go?  And just tell us a bit about that in a -- in a

 9     brief narrative.

10        A.   It was on the 19th of July.  I was summoned on the 18th by

11     General Mladic to come the following day.  He wasn't sure on which day

12     the going-away function was supposed to be held but he summoned me to be

13     there, to be present.  I arrived at Crna Rijeka in the evening hours of

14     the 19th of July.  I didn't find any of the Main Staff members in the

15     prefab buildings and I asked the courier by the name of

16     Sladjan Kovacevic, who was the senior officer present in the staff and he

17     told me General Gvero, he is somewhere in the subterranean command post.

18     He went to take a bath.

19             I got in touch with Gvero, and, as first -- his first words to me

20     were, I congratulate you on Zepa.  And I asked him, What do you mean,

21     Zepa?  And he said, Well, our forces are entering Zepa.  Most probably we

22     are in the middle of negotiations with the Muslims there.

23             I spent the night at Crna Rijeka and on the following day, we

24     went to Restaurant Jela, which is somewhere halfway between Han Pijesak

25     and Sokolac, the sending-off party was to take place there.  Everyone was

Page 14284

 1     there.  You have even the footage of it.  We were waiting for

 2     General Mladic.  General Mladic arrived from somewhere in a helicopter.

 3     We greeted each other, because I was there to receive him when he came,

 4     and then we walked to the restaurant together.  Mladic was there only for

 5     a brief period, not more than 20 minutes or certainly less than half an

 6     hour.  He handed a usual type of gift to General Zivanovic, said a few

 7     words about Zivanovic's command of the corps, and headed off back to the

 8     helicopter.  I went with him to the helicopter.  And on the way from the

 9     restaurant to the helicopter, which is about 50 metres distance I asked

10     him, is there a way -- he asked me whether there was a way to keep Glamoc

11     and Bihac, and I told him if can he give me three additional brigades,

12     yes.  And, indeed, the two towns fell on the 28th of July.

13             That was my entire stay there.  I went back to Crna Rijeka.  I

14     stayed there for I don't know how long, but on the 22nd of July, I was

15     already back in Drvar.

16        Q.   When you asked him for those three additional brigades for the

17     western front, did you get them?

18        A.   I got two brigades, but only on the 2nd of August.  It was the

19     Protection Regiment, and one brigade that was part of the Drina Corps,

20     namely the Zvornik Brigade that was under the command of

21     then-Colonel Pandurevic but it was too late; Glamoc was already lost, and

22     Drvar.

23        Q.   Did you see General Tolimir anywhere around Crna Rijeka when you

24     arrived, or at the Jela restaurant party?

25        A.   I cannot remember whether I've seen it or not.  I remember

Page 14285

 1     sitting next to General Gvero, I think.  Between Crna Rijeka and Jela, I

 2     was -- on the way to Jela, I was with Gvero.  I don't remember Tolimir at

 3     all being there.

 4        Q.   Do you know where General Tolimir was on the 19th and the 20th of

 5     July, when you were -- you had arrived back to Crna Rijeka, and then the

 6     20th, when you went to the party at Jela?

 7        A.   Someone in the Main Staff told me that Tolimir was at the forward

 8     command post 2 of the Main Staff.  My forward command post was number 1.

 9     But I didn't know where that was located.

10        Q.   All right.  And, General, I'm just going to play to you a part of

11     a video to see if you recognise it.  I think it's in the process of being

12     subtitled, so I don't have the subtitles or the transcript right now.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't think, Mr. President.  But I just, for

14     the purposes, I just wanted to see if he can identify it, and it is a

15     going-away party basically.  And it is 65 ter 1404.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, we'll provide with you stills

19     with the IDs of these other people.  But I just -- I'll ask him just a

20     few questions.

21        Q.   Do you recognise this person?

22        A.   Yes, I recognise the person.  It's me.

23        Q.   All right.  We'll play a little bit more of the video to see if

24     you can determine if it's the function we just spoke about.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14286

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   And can you remind us who that is at 02.43.2 that you're looking

 3     at that is to your right and to the left of the screen, the person

 4     sitting?

 5        A.   It's General Gvero.  And standing behind him is his deputy,

 6     Colonel Sokanovic.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's continue.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're going to skip forward a --

11        Q.   Actually, let's just stop there and identify these two

12     individuals, if you could.  We're at 03.35.0.

13        A.   This is General Milenko Zivanovic.  He is holding his ears.  And

14     next to him is the new corps commander, General Krstic.  And we can see

15     one part of the head of the General Djukic, logistics chief.

16        Q.   And we'll try to skip ahead a bit to see if we can find

17     General Mladic in his helicopter.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And we just saw in Cyrillic at 18.03.8, what is that -- can you

21     just tell us what that says?

22        A.   Restaurant Jela.

23        Q.   All right.  Let's continue.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

Page 14287

 1        Q.   General, can you just tell us what -- does that refresh your

 2     recollection on whether or not this -- this footage reflects what you'd

 3     been talking about?

 4        A.   Yes.  The first in the group of three is General Mladic.  Then

 5     myself.  And then General Zivanovic, the person in whose honour the party

 6     was held.

 7        Q.   And the helicopter that we see, is that the helicopter that you

 8     walked General Mladic out to and spoke to him briefly that you just

 9     described to us?

10        A.   Yes.  That was a Gazelle helicopter that was part of what the

11     army had.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We stopped at 21.06.9.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could just mark

15     this for identification right now.  I want to make sure you get a proper

16     transcript and subtitle, and I'm sure we have one.  I -- we're just not

17     precisely sure this is the one.  So we'll get back to that at a later

18     point.  This is all I really wanted to go over with this witness.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  65 ter 1404 will be marked for

20     identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  And shall be assigned exhibit number P2231,

22     marked for identification.  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And, General, lastly, I want to ask you if you recall on

25     March 31st, 2011 meeting with Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk of our office, where

Page 14288

 1     he sat with you with several original, what we call convoy request

 2     documents and asked you to look over them.  Do you recall that?

 3        A.   I had several meetings with Mr. Blaszczyk, most probably on the

 4     31st of March as well, in the Europol building in Banja Luka, and we were

 5     going through requests for two days, and I was asked whether I could

 6     recognise initials or signatures of Generals Mladic, Tolimir, Gvero, and

 7     myself.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 7372, which is a packet of

 9     materials that reflects that meeting.  And this was done as -- as can you

10     see, Mr.  President, relatively recently so it has not made it on the

11     65 ter list.  I discussed this a bit with Mr. Gajic, and I don't think we

12     have a problem.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that you are moving for adding these

14     documents to the 65 ter exhibit list.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Leave is granted.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   All right.  And if this is -- all right.  An English and Serbian

19     copy of Mr. Blaszczyk's report about what you'd said about convoy

20     material and your meeting with him.  So let go to the next page.  I don't

21     want to go over that.  You've basically testified to that already.  But

22     attached to that are our numbers, ERNs of all the material that you went

23     over.  Is that your understanding, General?

24        A.   Yes.  And I had an opportunity to see the report made by

25     Mr. Blaszczyk during the recent proofing.  And I had a comment:

Page 14289

 1     Miletic's name was not Milivoj but Radivoje.

 2        Q.   Thank you for that correction.  Any other corrections to what you

 3     saw in Mr. Blaszczyk's report?

 4        A.   No.  I also went through the same reports we had looked at in

 5     Banja Luka, but I still am not sure 100 percent about initials,

 6     especially in relation to Tolimir because he would use Cyrillics and

 7     Latinics depending on the occasion but I could tell that it was his

 8     document on the basis of the contents of the document, and on the basis

 9     of the handwriting, as far as I remembered the handwriting.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             In order not to waste time showing the documents, is

13     Mr. McCloskey saying that these are signatures or initials of various

14     officers in the ERNs numbers because the difference between the two is

15     significant.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, as you'll see, the General

18     went through many of these and circled in blue the item that he

19     recognised and noted who he thought it was, and sometimes it's initials.

20     It's mostly initials, I believe.  There may be a couple of signatures,

21     but it's -- it's very evident from the exhibit.  And I have spoken to

22     Mr. Gajic and the idea that I would go over some examples of them so that

23     you could get the feel how this collection worked.  But, of course,

24     they're all in e-court and they're all available for cross-examination.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The list of documents we see on the screen, the

Page 14290

 1     first item indicates a signature of Manojlo Milovanovic, marked as "MM"

 2     which is, in fact, initials and not a signature, MM.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, let's go to page 20 in e-court and you'll

 4     see how this works, I -- I ...

 5             And it was not our -- it's -- my intention to have the General

 6     discuss the -- or analyse the material, just the hand -- the signatures

 7     or initials.

 8        Q.   So, General, we see this document -- and, yeah, if we could blow

 9     it up a bit.  We see it's the 26th of April, 1995.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, Mr. President, you will be

11     hearing more about what these documents are and getting English

12     translations of them so that's coming but just not through this witness.

13        Q.   And, General, do you recognise this document and these blue marks

14     that are made?

15        A.   Yes, I can recognise the document.  It bears my signature.  And a

16     correction to what General Tolimir said.  I never initialed any of my

17     documents.  I didn't know how to come up with two Ms in an initial.  What

18     we have here though, the MM, this is just my initials of name and surname

19     but not an initial.  General Tolimir used to initial his documents, so

20     this, this is my document, I -- I made a circle around it in blue, and

21     added MM, as the investigator asked me to do.

22        Q.   All right.  So that MM was just for us to know that you had made

23     these blue marks.  And what is this handwriting we see within the circle?

24        A.   This is my signature.  During the war, I signed documents using

25     Latinics.  And it is here "M," and then "Milovanovic".  I always used my

Page 14291

 1     surname in full.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now let's go to page 46 in e-court.

 3             And if we could pull that -- yeah, that's a good idea.

 4             Again, we see blue markings, and we see several circles.  And can

 5     you tell us, have you -- have you made all those markings in blue?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And that first elongated -- that oval that's on the top,

 8     we see an "RM" next to it.  What does that mean?

 9        A.   It means that General Mladic received this document from someone,

10     read it, and that he is asking for opinion by Generals Gvero and Tolimir.

11     He wrote there "General Gvero" and "Toso".  That was the nickname we used

12     for General Tolimir.  "I'm asking you to provide me with your position

13     and opinion."

14             And then Tolimir first writes:  "Yes," Da, then crosses it out

15     and puts in "no," but I can't see where Gvero's position is on the

16     document.

17        Q.   All right.  So when you put "RM" next to that top oval, was that

18     identifying the author of the handwriting in that oval?

19        A.   Yes, that is Ratko Mladic.  Ratko Mladic's initials.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.  Your microphone, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please clarify

22     if this is Tolimir's -- if these are Tolimir's initials next to the

23     crossed over "da" and then next to the words "ne".  Can we clarify which

24     initials go with what is written.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm being asked or ... ?

Page 14292

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm asking the

 2     Prosecutor to clarify because it's unclear.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm quite sure that Mr. McCloskey will do that.

 4     He is going to do that.  Please carry on.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I think we've clarified the big oval.  Now let's get to

 7     the circle on the right side of the document, where we see that you have

 8     written a big "R." and "M".  Can you tell us what that lower

 9     "R.M" underneath that circle means?

10        A.   That means that the initials in that circle are those of

11     Ratko Mladic.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the left where we see you have written a

13     "Z.T."  Is that correct, you've written that blue, like you've told us

14     before?

15        A.   The lower initials next to which the letters "ZT" are, I think

16     that's the initials of Tolimir.

17             As for the top one, I didn't put anything there.  If you see on

18     the left-hand side it looks as if it was written "Gvero," and the

19     paragraph -- the -- the initials do resemble the letters "GM".  But I

20     wasn't sure, so I didn't put Gvero's initials next to that.  So from what

21     we can see here, it turns out that Tolimir first said yes, then crossed

22     it out, and then put no.  If it -- these -- this -- these are the

23     initials of Gvero, it looks like he put "no," so it turns out that really

24     Mladic didn't get anything from this, because if one had put "yes" and

25     one had put "no," nothing really was to be gained from -- from that.

Page 14293

 1        Q.   All right.  Let's go to P104.  Sorry, it's -- no, it's e-court

 2     page 104.  Sorry.

 3             And we could take up the whole page, if we could, and we don't

 4     need that page on the left.

 5             Okay.  Let's start -- and let's blow up the stop of this where we

 6     see the blue marks.  And I think we now see the word "da" and then the --

 7     circled in blue.  And then next to the circle, it appears you have

 8     written "ZT".  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  I thought that that was Zdravko Tolimir's initials.  If you

10     scroll the document down, you can see "da" in Cyrillic at the top.  Yes.

11     And then underneath that is a text with the same initials but in the

12     Roman script, and this is something that always confused me, because he

13     would switch from the Cyrillic to the Latin script, and this would even

14     happen on the same page.  So that would confuse me.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, let's go blow up the whole page so we can see

16     what you're talking about again.

17             All right.  And so we see that you have circled a part at the

18     bottom and you've also put "ZT".  And we -- can you, just to be clear on

19     this one because there's a number of writing, can you take the pen - and

20     they'll show you how to do it - can you circle any initials that you've

21     identified as ZT?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait a moment.  The court usher will

23     assist you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I circle one of the ZT?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 14294

 1        Q.   Yes.  Not the one that you wrote but the one that you've --

 2     you've identified as ZT.  At the -- if there's one at the bottom.  I'm

 3     talking about the bottom ZT that you've written.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   All right.  And can you just mark a "1" next to that.

 6        A.   Number 1?

 7        Q.   Yes, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   And what -- what is that inside your circle number 1?

10        A.   I think those are Tolimir's initials in the Latin script.  At the

11     top it's written in the Cyrillic script.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You're talking about this specific document we

15     have on the screen now with the marking?

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, please.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document with the marking made by the

18     witnesses would be received as an exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, marking made on the page 104 of the

20     65 ter document 7372 shall be assigned exhibit number P2232.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Can we now go to page 60 in e-court.

23        Q.   All right.  Let's start at the bottom this time and ask you about

24     the one at the bottom.  Again, we see your blue markings.  And what have

25     you circled at the bottom and marked "ZT"?

Page 14295

 1        A.   I circled Zdravko Tolimir's initials.  And he wrote the word

 2     "da," yes, in the Latin script.

 3        Q.   All right.  And that "da" is an indication of his approval or his

 4     proposed approval, I should say.  Which is it?  If you know.

 5        A.   He is making a proposal to someone here for a meeting to be held.

 6     I don't know what's requested at the top.

 7        Q.   All right.  And now let's go to this top one.

 8             And can you just read out to us what that handwriting says in

 9     the -- in the circled part?

10        A.    "Deliver 2nd of February, 1995, to General Kelecevic 10.05.

11     Colonel Tomanic 12.20."

12             The initials are "MDj," Milos Djurdjic.  He is a representative

13     of the Main Staff in the Commission for the Supply of Humanitarian Aid

14     which was formed in 1994.

15        Q.   And do you recognise those initials from your work with

16     Milos Djurdjic?

17        A.   No.  But we arrived that conclusion by deduction, by looking at

18     other documents signed by Milos Djurdjic.  Specifically, I did not

19     recognise his initials.  I don't know what it's like.  But we came to

20     that conclusion on the basis of other texts that we looked at.

21        Q.   Now, General, you say "we."  What we need here is your

22     conclusions.  Can you make that conclusion yourself, based on seeing

23     other texts?

24        A.   All right.  Very well.  I correct myself.  I decided -- or I

25     concluded that these are the initials of Djurdjic.

Page 14296

 1        Q.   And when you said "we," who were you thinking of?

 2        A.   I meant Mr. Blaszczyk, who went through the documents with me,

 3     because we were struggling, first of all, to find the first and last name

 4     of the person with the initials "MDj," and our first conversation,

 5     relating to this documents - and I don't know when that was held - I

 6     really couldn't remember the last name of Djurdjic.  I knew his first

 7     name, Milos, and I knew his function, and then I called

 8     General Savo Sokanovic by phone in Belgrade for him to tell me who it was

 9     at the headquarters with the initials "MDj".  There was a dilemma between

10     Mihajlo Djurdjevic, that engineer who was there.  And then we dropped

11     that name because he had nothing to do with these documents and we're

12     left with Djurdjic, and then later we did really establish that the last

13     name of the person was Djurdjic.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I would offer these

16     collection of this material into evidence.  These -- having provided

17     these examples of how this work was carried out.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are these attachments to the record or the

19     information Mr. Blaszczyk was writing?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  They had the brief information report and

21     then the -- our ERN numbers and then the actual documents themselves with

22     the ERN numbers and the General's marks.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then all these documents together are

24     65 ter 7372; is that correct?

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.

Page 14297

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This will be received as an exhibit.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be assigned exhibit number

 3     P2233 [Realtime transcript read in error "P2223"].  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's the wrong number.  It should be P2232.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And finally --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's incorrect.  Please repeat the number.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 7372 shall be assigned exhibit number

 8     P2233.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it, thank you.

10             Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, we -- if we could have

12     65 ter 7395.  And this is a product that the OTP put together based on

13     the personnel file of General Tolimir which has a, I believe, a 65 ter

14     number.  So it's just an outgrowth of something that did have a 65 ter

15     number but it is a product that we -- that we did, and we have provided

16     this, I believe, several weeks ago to Mr. Gajic for his -- any comments

17     or additions or subtractions on it.  And I've shown it recently to

18     General Milovanovic.  We should have it in both languages.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm afraid this was not uploaded in B/C/S.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   General, do you remember me showing a B/C/S copy of -- of

22     something I described to you as a -- something we had done, a resume?

23        A.   I do recall the document, and I wrote in pencil at the top of the

24     document that I've known General Tolimir from 11th of May, 1992, that,

25     until that time, I didn't know anything about his progressing through the

Page 14298

 1     ranks, from school and then onto his duties.  I didn't know much about

 2     him.  I also wrote in the information about him completing wartime

 3     school, because I know that he told me that he had interrupted his

 4     schooling, that he had left and then had to go back because the war had

 5     began in the area of Knin.  I'm not sure that he had completed the

 6     National Defence School and that is why I put a question mark next to

 7     that, because this is something that you would need to check with him.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we should just mark this for

10     identification and I will endeavour to get the Serbian copy of it.  But

11     that all I really wanted him to say at this point, anyway, and I will, of

12     course, continue to discuss this with Mr. Gajic.

13             There's a large personnel file, but that's a very difficult --

14     and mostly in Serbian.  It's a very difficult thing for anyone to go

15     through so we've just tried to create this.  But I think we should just

16     mark it for now.  And I -- I actually finished my questioning, so I have

17     nothing further.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This document will be

19     marked for identification.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7395 shall be

21     assigned exhibit number P2234.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.

23             Sir, you know now it's the turn of Mr. Tolimir to cross-examine

24     you.

25             Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

Page 14299

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

 2     you, Mr. McCloskey.  Once again I would like to welcome

 3     General Milovanovic.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't have any

 6     questions at all following on the testimony of the witness.  But maybe I

 7     would have some questions relating to other people.  But out of respect

 8     for the General, I would just like us to look at P2233.  Thank you.

 9             Thank you.  I apologise, Mr. President.  There's been a mistake

10     in coordination between me and my legal assistant.  I would like to look

11     at the document that has become P2233 after being admitted.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is on the screen.  Perhaps you are referring

13     to a specific page.  Then you should indicate which page you want to see.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  If Mr. Tolimir is referring to exhibit that was

15     marked in court by the witness, that would be Exhibit P2232.  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That is correct.

17     According to my notes, that is page 60.  I apologise to my legal

18     assistant because he did give me the correct document.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P2232 with the markings of the witness was

20     page 104.  And now we have page 60 of P2233.  No, it's not correct.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to ask the Registrar to indicate

23     which page and which document we see on the screen now.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, at the moment, we have

25     Exhibit P2232 on the screen.  Thank you.

Page 14300

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this was page 104 of the document, P2233.

 2             Mr. Tolimir.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I was

 4     looking for this specific page.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   General, sir, since you and I speak the same language and we have

 7     to pause so that what we say can be recorded in the transcript, you must

 8     make a break and then we will, of course, understand each other.

 9             My first question is this: In view of the contents of the

10     document that you have read and that you see in front of you, is it

11     evident that activities that were agreed or approved, they were agreed on

12     at the joint military commission with UNPROFOR?  Thank you.

13        A.   I see your word, "da," yes, here and I can see then that you

14     approved at the meeting.  And at the bottom you also provide an

15     explanation why:

16             "A representative of the VRS will join in when the UNPROFOR

17     informs that the Muslim army ... " and I cannot decipher this last word.

18     I understand this document to mean that you have approved something.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, that is correct.  And that is so in all the

20     documents.  There are initials for UNPROFOR on things that were agreed

21     with UNPROFOR at joint meetings, and then the commander's approval is

22     sought.  This document that you see here, was it addressed to Tolimir or

23     to the Main Staff?

24        A.   It was addressed to the Main Staff of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.

Page 14301

 1        Q.   And all the documents that you looked at with Mr. Blaszczyk, are

 2     they all like that?  The ones that are sent from UNPROFOR, are they sent

 3     to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and not to any

 4     particular individual?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, no.  That does not apply to all of them.  We found a number

 6     of documents that were sent to the chief of the General Staff -- the

 7     Main Staff, that is myself.  We found some documents sent to the

 8     commander of the Main Staff.  I don't remember that we found a single

 9     document, I don't remember seeing a document that was addressed to you,

10     but there were documents that were sent to Milos Djurdjic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm asking you this because during the

12     examination-in-chief yesterday you said that you received documents

13     through me, so I'm asking you:  Did the documents arrive at the addressee

14     or did they arrive in a different manner?  Thank you.

15        A.   The documents arrived at the Main Staff office.  And the head of

16     the office would distribute them to the addressees, and if a document was

17     only addressed to the Main Staff then that was delivered to me or to

18     General Mladic, if he happened to be there.

19             I probably said that I mostly got documents from you, many of

20     those that were related to UNPROFOR.  If I received any directly, I think

21     that I always consulted you about them because, in a way, you were the

22     Main Staff liaison with UNPROFOR.

23        Q.   Thank you, General, sir.  I'm not going to spend much time on

24     these documents.  I don't have any objections.  I just wanted to clarify

25     the essence and the content.

Page 14302

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 03972,

 2     please.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Yes, I was just about to ask for the document in the Serbian.

 5     Well, we can see a document here.  I'm just going to read the first

 6     paragraph, just underneath the title, "The meeting of the joint central

 7     commission report."  The document is of the 2nd of First, 1995.

 8             I quote:  "On the 1st of January, 1995, at Sarajevo airport at

 9     01200 hours, a first meeting was held of the Central Joint Commission for

10     the implementation of the agreement on end of hostilities presided over

11     by Lieutenant-General M. Rose.  Michael Rose.  The representative of

12     Republika Srpska army was General Zdravko Tolimir and the Muslim side was

13     represented by General Mustafa Hajrulahovic."

14             And then it states, "It was agreed at the meeting ... " and it

15     goes to say, by paragraph, exactly what was agreed at the meeting.

16             So are you able to tell the Trial Chamber if this was the first

17     meeting as it states here, and what was agreed at those meetings of the

18     joint military commission where I was a representative of the Main Staff.

19     Thank you.

20        A.   I can't answer your question.  This document is dated the 2nd of

21     January, when I was in Drvar.  Therefore I don't know what you agreed on.

22     I only saw this document a few days ago, during proofing.  I don't know

23     what was agreed upon.  All I can see is that you sent this information to

24     the president of the republic.  Looking at the document, it seems to me

25     to be a genuine Main Staff document.  But as for its contents, that's

Page 14303

 1     something I am unable to discuss.

 2        Q.   Thank you, General.  In that case, I will read out item 1, in

 3     order to see what was discussed at the Joint Military Commission session.

 4             I'm quoting from item 1 of the first meeting following where it

 5     says, "At the meeting the following was agreed":

 6              "1.  To establish a joint central commission which would meet

 7     once a week at Sarajevo airport and to establish regional commissions

 8     which would carry out tasks of the Central Joint Commissions and

 9     implement on the ground the items of the agreement and tasks which have

10     been jointly agreed at the Central Joint Commissions."

11             That is to say, by consensus.

12             My question is this:  Looking at the contents of item 1, can you

13     see that, at the meeting of the Central Joint Commission, it was agreed

14     on that decisions were to be made jointly and then the respective sides

15     would implement them, such as the helicopter sorties you just discussed?

16        A.   General, I can only see this for the first time.  I knew of the

17     existence of the Central Joint Commission.  Before that, there had been

18     mixed military commissions, first at Sarajevo level, including officers

19     of the Sarajevo Corps and the 1st Muslim Corps.  I know this Hajrulahovic

20     person, his nickname was Talijan.

21             When I went westward I see following that, you formed this Joint

22     Military Commission.  It remained in force even following the

23     Dayton Accords for a while when I was Minister of Defence.  At the time,

24     it included chiefs of General Staffs of the VRS and of the Army of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I'd like to thank you for this information, because

Page 14304

 1     I didn't know when it was formed and I don't know what its scope of

 2     authority was.

 3        Q.   Thank you, General.  Since we have this document before us, I

 4     wanted to read out the second paragraph, which refers to regional

 5     commissions.

 6             "The UNPROFOR command suggested that regional commissions be

 7     established at UNPROFOR sector commands in Gornji Vakuf, Tuzla and

 8     Sarajevo and at UNPROFOR commands in Srebrenica, Gorazde, Zepa, and Bihac

 9     enclaves."

10             Can we see from this that UNPROFOR had this intention of

11     establishing regional commissions as part of its commands?

12        A.   Yes.  This is what I can see, and I'm surprised not to see Tuzla

13     here because Tuzla was yet another safe area.

14        Q.   Thank you, General.  My mistake it does say Tuzla.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... In the

16     document, you can see Gornji Vakuf, Tuzla, and Sarajevo are mentioned.

17     In the second paragraph of item 1.

18             Do you see that, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Paragraph 3 reads:  "Our side did not agree to the establishment

25     and operation of regional commissions within the framework of UNPROFOR

Page 14305

 1     sector commands.  Rather, we proposed that regional commissions meet at

 2     suitable locations jointly agreed on between the two -- between two

 3     confrontation lines and carry out the tasks issued by their superior

 4     commands, as jointly agreed upon at meetings of the Central Joint

 5     Commission."

 6             My question is this:  Do you know whether the regional

 7     commissions worked as we proposed?  Meeting as needed at separation lines

 8     or on one of the sides in the conflict?

 9        A.   I don't know whether those commissions met at separation lines.

10     I know, though that before this and after this UNPROFOR called many

11     meetings at separation lines, and we both attended one such meeting in no

12     man's land between Bratunac and Srebrenica.

13             I know that UNPROFOR frequently convened such meetings, but in

14     the territory controlled by the Federation, be it in HVO territory or

15     Muslim territory.  One of the chiefs of UNPROFOR, General Van Baal once

16     called me to a meeting in the Cazina Krajina on an airport there, because

17     he wanted me to go to enemy territory which would put me straight in

18     their hands.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Having in mind the strategic objectives shown to you

20     today, please look at what the fourth paragraph says:  "UNPROFOR command

21     had" --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... move to the

23     next page.  Could we please see on the first page the headline.  The top

24     of both -- both pages.  And in B/C/S as well, please.  The top of the

25     page, please.  The top of the page, please, in B/C/S.  Thank you very

Page 14306

 1     much.

 2             There's a mistake in the translation.  In the original we see the

 3     2nd of January, 1995; and in the translation, 2nd of January 1993.  But

 4     it should be 1995.  I just wanted to clarify that for the record.

 5             Now you should continue, Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Let's look at the last paragraph next, which is the fifth

 9     paragraph on page 1.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please display it on the

11     screen for the General.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It has to do with what you just mentioned:  "The UNPROFOR's

14     command was for the Central Joint Commission to take over the

15     competencies of the commands of the parties to the conflict and to issue

16     orders to the regional commissions, while the regional commissions would

17     operate independently under the chairmanship of UNPROFOR and would carry

18     out their tasks independently at regional level."

19             My question is this:  During the war, did we, in the Main Staff,

20     make -- or meet with several such UNPROFOR attempts like the one when you

21     were called to come to Bihac, and could this be considered interfering

22     with our commanding structure?

23        A.   Any discussion between members of the Main Staff or any

24     conversation of mine with different Chiefs of Staff of UNPROFOR, because

25     they rotated, began with their proposal that we should include liaison

Page 14307

 1     officers in the Main Staff, but these were supposed to be UNPROFOR

 2     liaison officers.  There were attempts at introducing the so-called red

 3     or hot telephone lines between the warring parties.  We always rejected

 4     such proposals.  I saw there were such attempts made even when Mladic

 5     spoke to UNPROFOR commanders for Bosnia-Herzegovina or for the former

 6     Yugoslavia.  They always tried to achieve that.  We always rejected,

 7     especially once our liaison officer Slavko Guzic was driven out of

 8     Bugojno.  He was our liaison officer, that is to say, our representative

 9     in their command.  They kept him as long as he was needed and once they

10     didn't need him anymore, they tied his hands with barbed wire, put him on

11     a helicopter, and took him elsewhere.  That is why we refused to have any

12     communication with them along command lines.

13        Q.   Let's look at page 2 next.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I want to remind both speakers not to overlap but

15     to pause between question and answer and the next question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  A

17     mistake was made.  A part of what the General said is missing.  He is --

18     the liaison officers were -- the liaison officer's hands were tied, he

19     was put on a helicopter, and then taken somewhere where he was basically

20     pushed out.

21             Can the General please repeat his answer.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please repeat that part of your answer.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Slavko Guzic was our

24     liaison officer as part of the UNPROFOR command for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25     I think he was either in Visoko or Kakanj.  They kept him for as long as

Page 14308

 1     they needed him.  Once he asked for something they didn't like, they tied

 2     his hands with wire instead of handcuffs.  They put him on board a

 3     helicopter, took him to the area of Lukavica, in the area of the

 4     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command and threw him out of helicopter without

 5     any explanation whatsoever.  As of that moment on, it was the position of

 6     the Main Staff that we no longer wanted to cooperate with them in terms

 7     of positioning liaison officers.  All their attempts of that sort were

 8     rejected immediately.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you, General.  It seems to have been my mistake that your

11     answer was not fully recorded.

12             Let's look at paragraph 2 on the next page, which describes what

13     you have just said.

14             "Our proposal was accepted to establish regional commissions

15     which would work at agreed upon locations along the confrontation lines

16     and under the orders of their own superiors ..." meaning the superiors of

17     each of the sides.

18             "By consensus, without UNPROFOR being the arbiter in the event

19     that no agreement is reached.  In all those instances where an agreement

20     cannot be reached at commission level, it was agreed that the commanders

21     would meet and jointly resolve problems as they arose."

22             My question is this:  Because of this negative experience with

23     Guzovic [as interpreted] and with Bihac and other examples you mentioned,

24     did we always ask that all disputes that cannot be resolved as part of

25     the commissions be resolved by the commanders of the sides?  Because the

Page 14309

 1     Muslim and Croat side always had proposals that were different to ours,

 2     and these had to be agreed on at commander level.  Is there anything you

 3     can add to this?

 4        A.   This became standard practice in the General Staff.  Following

 5     the first joint meeting between representatives of the warring sides,

 6     although I don't think you attended those negotiations in Sarajevo with

 7     me; it was sometime in early 1993.  Then all commanders of the warring

 8     sides were called together.  The meeting was chaired by General Morillon.

 9     However, the Muslim side did not dispatch a proper delegation.  Their

10     delegation was headed by Fikret Muslimovic who was their chief of

11     intelligence.  In such circumstances our delegation refused negotiating

12     with him.  To get back at me, Petkovic then refused to negotiate with me

13     because I wasn't commander of the Main Staff but his deputy.

14     General Morillon wanted to keep the meeting going, saying that it wasn't

15     important who represented the Muslims because the Muslims were supposed

16     to do as UNPROFOR decides.  All in all, the meeting failed.  It wasn't

17     clear who wanted what.  UNPROFOR, I presume, wanted us to cease

18     activities and all of the sides had their own conditions, so nothing came

19     of it.

20             Following that, we kept fighting against UNPROFOR's unilateral

21     decisions unless there was a consensus on the different issues.  I don't

22     know how much of it you recall, General, but the Main Staff, including

23     yourself sent me to the talks of -- between commanders of the warring

24     sides when the pulling out of artillery around Sarajevo was discussed.

25     General Mladic put conditions to me.  He told me what things I could

Page 14310

 1     accept and what things I was to say there.  In your presence I told him,

 2     General, I cannot negotiate under such terms.  Negotiations mean giving

 3     in a little by both sides so that we can meet halfway.  If I come there

 4     and dictate your requests and refuse discussing it, this would amount to

 5     an ultimatum, not talks.  Then a Solomonic solution was found.  He told

 6     me that I could do as I thought fit without endangering the combat

 7     readiness of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 8             The first day of talks was chaired by General Michael Rose,

 9     UNPROFOR commander for BiH.  The first day, the talks failed because the

10     Muslim delegation did not show up.  Rose then tried to use the same

11     argument, telling that we should keep negotiating because the Muslims

12     were expected to do as he decided.  We refused to negotiate under such

13     terms, though, and we met again the next day.  Again, the Muslims were

14     absent.  He spent the whole afternoon chasing about Sarajevo and finally,

15     a delegation showed up headed by Jovan Divjak.  Fikret Muslimovic, the

16     security guy, was again part of the delegation, and the recently removed

17     commander of the 1st Muslim Corps, Mr. Hajrulahovic, aka Talijan, was

18     there.  When the talks began, I realized that the Muslim delegation had

19     no idea what they were supposed to negotiate about.  When Rose told us

20     what it was that we were supposed to talk about, Divjak stood up and he

21     said, I request that the Serb artillery be withdrawn 30 kilometres from

22     Sarajevo, then I added in that I agreed.  I think it was quite a surprise

23     to General Rose.  He said, Wait, General, I suppose you have some

24     conditions.  I said I did, and I wanted Divjak to tell me what territory

25     he wanted me to lend to him, whether it was Kalinovik or Romanija because

Page 14311

 1     in the Sarajevo area they could not reach the appropriate depth of 30

 2     kilometres.  They had an elliptic shape of territory which was 22 by 17

 3     kilometres and if we agreed on the 30-kilometre line they had nowhere to

 4     pull out their artillery.  Divjak fell silent following that and their

 5     delegations didn't speak anymore.  We concluded the meeting and General

 6     Rose and I agreed that their artillery should be pulled out to 20

 7     kilometres, knowing full well that they did not even have those 20

 8     kilometres in Sarajevo.  In exchange for that, since they were superior

 9     to us in infantry terms, I demanded that their infantry be withdrawn into

10     the barracks.  It was accepted at the meeting but was never implemented.

11     We pulled out our artillery pieces but their infantry remained at the

12     front line.

13             That was the reason why you probably included into this report

14     that we should not under any conditions accept decisions reached by

15     UNPROFOR that would follow a failure of consensus between the warring

16     parties.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Milovanovic, you talked at length about some

18     meetings with UNPROFOR.  Can you tell us the date when these meetings

19     have taken place?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first meeting I talked about

21     was a meeting between the warring parties held, I think, in March 1993.

22     At that meeting or with that meeting, the UNPROFOR's intention was to

23     demonstrate who the warring parties are.  FRY delegation was also

24     invited.  We refused to have that -- I told --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry to interrupt you.  You talked about that at

Page 14312

 1     length.  I just wanted to know when all this happened.  We need the date.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first meeting was in early

 3     March.  I can't recall the exact date.  Early March of 1993.

 4             The second meeting about pullout of artillery away from Sarajevo

 5     was 8th and 9th of February, 1994.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

 7             Mr. Tolimir.

 8             Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.

 9             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a small intervention.

10     Page 58, line 2, I think the witness said that Fikret Muslimovic was a

11     security man, so from the security service, and in the transcript we see

12     "chief of intelligence".

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Milovanovic, could you clarify that?  To

14     which unit does this person belong?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All security organs, beginning with

16     the chief of sector, chief of security sector, and all the way to the

17     lowest ranking officers, we used to call security men.  Fikret Muslimovic

18     was chief of security service of the so-called BH army.  He was the main

19     security man of the so-called BH army, the Muslim army.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Tolimir.  You have three minutes left before the break.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             In those three minutes we will have time to look at document

24     03974, 65 ter document, we can show how the joint commissions functioned

25     and I would also like to tender the one we have on the screen at the

Page 14313

 1     moment.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3972 shall be

 4     assigned exhibit number D249.  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, we see on our screens a document dated 5th of January.

 8     The one before was dated 1st of January.  And this is a document in

 9     relation to the second meeting of the joint commission.  We will not read

10     the conclusions.  I just want to show you second paragraph where it is

11     stated that the Sarajevo Regional Joint Commission will arrange the map

12     of lines of contact as it was on the 9th of February, 1994.

13             It says under number 3:  "Joint regional commissions will prepare

14     a plan for establishing, monitoring posts along the line of contact."

15             At following meetings of the joint commission, decisions were

16     reached with a purpose of establishing cease of hostilities as it was

17     agreed as well by the agreement on cease of hostilities that had been

18     agreed upon sometime before.

19        A.   I am afraid I didn't understand your question fully.  I will try

20     and provide an answer and if I go awry, could you please reformulate your

21     question.

22        Q.   May be best if I repeat my question.

23             Can we see that these meetings were held every week, in

24     accordance to what the first document stated.  And can we also see that

25     the central commission was issuing tasks to regional commissions as we

Page 14314

 1     can see here in items 1, 2 and 3.  Can you give us a brief answer?

 2        A.   Yes, this does show the continuity of work of the central joint

 3     commission from the moment it was established onwards.

 4        Q.   I apologise --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,

 6     I stopped you because you are overlapping again.

 7             And I have to make two corrections -- one addition and one

 8     correction.  You mentioned the date of this document but you left out the

 9     year.  It is from 1995.  And you said the previous document was from the

10     1st of January, but, in fact, it was from the 2nd of January, 1995.

11             I think now is a convenient time for our second break.  We have

12     to adjourn and resume at 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before you continue, I would like to

16     ask you about a reference to the examination-in-chief.  At the moment, I

17     think you are dealing with events in 1992, 1993, 1994.  I don't recall

18     anything of that sort during examination-in-chief.

19             Could you give us a -- any explanation to that?  Because I didn't

20     understand that yet.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             I started my cross-examination by tendering a document dated 1st

23     of January, 1995 -- 1995.  And what I'm trying to prove is that, had this

24     been abided by, we wouldn't have all the events that happened in

25     Srebrenica and Zepa later on.  This is why I'm trying to introduce the

Page 14315

 1     document in question.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on your cross-examination.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We've seen two documents so far, from 1995, both of them from

 6     January 1995.  The topic discussed in the documents is the joint

 7     commission and regional joint commissions that should have been the basis

 8     for truce.

 9             I would like to show you now the document -- or, rather --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I please tender

11     both of these documents.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document, 65 ter 3972, was already admitted

13     into evidence, as D249.

14             And now we have -- if I'm not mistaken, 65 ter 3974 on the

15     screen.  We don't see an English translation.  Therefore, it will be

16     marked for identification, pending translation.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3974 shall be

18     assigned exhibit number D250, marked for identification pending

19     translation.  Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Can we please have 03971 on the screen.  It's a 65 ter number.

22     Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, we've been discussing the activities of the central

25     military commission that was established in Bosnia and Herzegovina after

Page 14316

 1     the agreement on cessation of hostilities.  Before us is now a document

 2     issued by the commands of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated 2nd of

 3     January, 1995.  They are informing us about their activities and the

 4     title of the document is "A Report from the Meeting of the Regional

 5     Commission".

 6             In the first paragraph we can see that on that day, in the

 7     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps a regional commission was -- a meeting of the

 8     commission was held, chaired by General Gobillard.  And in the signature,

 9     we can see that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was represented by the chief

10     of the corps, and we can see that on the following page,

11     Mr. Cedo Sladoje.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 1 to

13     see the text on page 1.  Thank you.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In the heading, we can see that it was sent to the Main Staff,

16     personally to General Tolimir.  And then we have a report on the

17     activities of the commission because the central military commission was

18     scheduled to meet within a week and therefore regional commissions were

19     supposed to report on their activities.

20             Can you please tell us who General Gobillard was and whether all

21     the corps and all commands functioned according to this same principle,

22     at least when regional commissions are the issue?  Thank you.

23        A.   From the document, I can see that General Gobillard was UNPROFOR

24     commander of the Sarajevo sector.  I haven't met him personally.

25     Furthermore, I can see from the document that the regional commission is

Page 14317

 1     reporting to you, who was the representative of the Main Staff in the

 2     central commission.  I did know some of the Sector Sarajevo commanders,

 3     Soubirou, for instance, then a Russian officer, I think he was Chief of

 4     Staff, either a Russian or a Ukrainian Demurenko.  I haven't seen any

 5     other documents by any other regional commissions.  I'm expecting to see

 6     them.  But this document demonstrates that the regional commissions, that

 7     our representatives in the regional commissions were reporting to you

 8     personally, because you were our representative in the central

 9     commission.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Please read the sixth paragraph from the top, the

11     first word is:  "After a lengthy discussion and attempts by the Muslim

12     side to avoid specifying conditions for abiding by the agreement, finally

13     it was agreed that the Muslim side -- forces will return -- will withdraw

14     from the demilitarised zone by the 1200 hours on the 4th January 1995.

15     General Gobillard and his staff will carry out an inspection of the

16     demilitarised zone in the afternoon hours on the 4th of January, 1995.

17     At the following meeting of the regional commission on the 5th of

18     January, 1995, UNPROFOR will submit a report and agreement will be made

19     about when the inspection of the demilitarised zone will be carried out

20     by the joint commission."

21             Could you tell me which demilitarized zone is discussed here, on

22     the basis of the report, and whether what had been agreed with the

23     cessation of hostilities at the meeting of the regional commission in

24     Sarajevo was abided by?

25        A.   I would like to, General, but I cannot answer your question.  I

Page 14318

 1     wasn't present, first of all.  Secondly, I wasn't familiar with the

 2     functioning of the central commission.  I can only say that this document

 3     is a valid document.  It is in keeping with the regulations and the laws.

 4     I cannot speak to the facts presented in the document, whether they are

 5     correct or not.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  General, can we please read the last paragraph of the

 7     document, or on this page.  "Our delegation insisted that the agreement

 8     reached on the 14th of August 1993 is fully abided by because that would

 9     make sure not only that the Muslim forces would withdraw from the

10     demilitarized zone but also from the areas to the east of the

11     demilitarized zone to the west border of the demilitarized zone that was

12     determined on the 14th of August, 1993."

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... still

14     listening to the translation.  Please slow down.  [Microphone not

15     activated]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   "Karavelic tried to make it possible that we carry out

19     demilitarization of the demilitarized zone, that only UNPROFOR can do

20     that."

21             Can you, on the basis of the document, tell us which

22     demilitarized zone this is referring to, and whether the Muslims actually

23     implemented what was agreed upon, and were they ready to make sure that

24     the Serbs can act also in accordance to the agreement.

25             Do you remember what this is all about at all?

Page 14319

 1        A.   Based on the document itself, I cannot tell you what the

 2     delimitations of this zone were.  I can only assume that this was an area

 3     surrounding Sarajevo.  But I don't know the borders of the zone.  I can

 4     comment, nevertheless, on the positions of the Muslim side.

 5             Earlier, when we were trying to delineate the safety zones or

 6     demilitarized zones for which agreements had been signed by the

 7     commanders of the warring parties, which is in the keeping with the

 8     Geneva Conventions, and I'm talking about Srebrenica, Zepa, and, later,

 9     Gorazde, where the two warring parties' commanders signed an agreement,

10     on that occasion, they agreed that UNPROFOR would guarantee whether the

11     zones had been or had not been demilitarised.  Both for Srebrenica and

12     Zepa, because I'm familiar with those two, we believed UNPROFOR's trick,

13     their ruse.  There was even a joint commission that was tasked with

14     determining whether Srebrenica was demilitarised or not, and they

15     reported to us that Muslims handed over, I think, 900 barrels in Zepa and

16     1200 barrels in Srebrenica.  The mixed commission tried to verify the

17     information received from UNPROFOR.  It was possible at the time.  But --

18     and, yes, these barrels were found, but it was obsolete weapons,

19     improvised weapons that we used to call "fear of Serbs".  It was

20     something made provisionally by using lead pipes, and it could have been

21     used only once.  We -- from October 1994, we did not recognise it

22     anymore, because, on that day, the UN Security Council declared another

23     three safe areas, Tuzla, Sarajevo, and Bihac.

24             We were informed by UNPROFOR that the 5th Muslim Corps was

25     disarmed, that all of three brigades that made up the corps were

Page 14320

 1     disarmed.  We did not verify that.  However, a year and a half later, the

 2     5th Muslim Corps attacked the VRS from the very demilitarized zone.

 3     There was about 22.000 troops grouped into eight or nine brigades, and at

 4     their disposal they had state-of-the-art infantry weapons.  It was the

 5     first time when I saw Singapore rifles in use.  In other words, UNPROFOR

 6     lied to VRS when saying that they were disarmed because, in the meantime,

 7     the corps was additionally armed, trained, and replenished.  So we

 8     stopped believing UNPROFOR, and we insisted whenever there were local

 9     agreement on either demilitarization or cessation of hostilities, that we

10     should participate on that, as you can see the Muslims were against it,

11     because they believed that UNPROFOR will confirm whatever they tell them.

12        Q.   Thank you, General.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

14     document.  It is relevant in relation to events in Sarajevo later on, and

15     the offensive in Sarajevo later on, because it involves supply of weapons

16     to the Muslims in Sarajevo.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

18     translation.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3971 shall be

20     assigned exhibit number D251, marked for identification, pending

21     translation.  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Can we see now in e-court 65 ter 003970.  Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And while we're waiting - we'll see it in a moment - this is a

Page 14321

 1     document by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska of the 2nd of

 2     January, 1995, sent to the Sarajevo UNPROFOR command.  I signed the

 3     document, and it refers to the document that the Prosecutor showed when

 4     we were comparing initials on the document where I had written "no."

 5             And let us look to the first quote:  "At a meeting of the Joint

 6     Central Committee held on 1 January 1995 at the Sarajevo airport it was

 7     not agreed that UNPROFOR aircrafts and personnel would travel unannounced

 8     and without permission from the party on whose territory they would be

 9     travelling."

10             Item 5 of the agreement on a complete cease of all enemy

11     activities signed on 31st December 1994 provides for the free movement of

12     UNPROFOR according to the relevant procedure which implies prior

13     notification and permission of movement."

14             My question is:  Did we, or the Main Staff - I apologise for

15     saying "we" - always take care to respect all of the agreements that were

16     relevant in a given situation and in respect of a given activity; and did

17     it always inform UNPROFOR about it, as I did in this document?  Thank

18     you.

19        A.   Yes, that was the duty of all members of the Main Staff, in all

20     contacts, either with UNPROFOR or with representatives of the warring

21     sides.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

24     document so that we could call up the next one.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 14322

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3970 shall be

 2     assigned exhibit number D252.  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at D77.  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We're about to see the document that refers to the principles for

 6     freedom of movement.  The document was signed by UNPROFOR and the

 7     Main Staff and it's dated 1st of January, 1995, precisely at the time

 8     when the cease-fire and cessation of hostilities were being set.

 9             Can we now look at the first paragraph of this document on the

10     principles for freedom of movement.

11             "These principles define the appropriate procedures regarding

12     freedom of movement, as stated in paragraph 5 of the agreement on the

13     complete cessation of hostilities signed on the 31st of December, 1994.

14     These principles specifically refer to UNPROFOR movements on Serb-held

15     territory."

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at item 5 that this

17     item 1 refers to which states, I quote, item 5 from this agreement which

18     is on the following page.  Thank you.  Can the witness please be shown

19     the following page?

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Item 5 refers to aircraft:  "UNPROFOR helicopters will enjoy

22     freedom of movement after notification on the announced and approved

23     route of flying.  There will be a check on the ground on -- at an agreed

24     location."

25             This agreement was signed in Lukavica on 31st of January 1995 by

Page 14323

 1     General Brinkman and Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.

 2             My question to the witness is:  Did we always not try to respect

 3     all procedures agreed on with UNPROFOR about the movement of their

 4     aircraft and that we prevented that when the framework of the agreement

 5     was violated?

 6        A.   I state with full responsibility that the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska always respected the agreement -- rather, those

 8     agreements, which I cannot say specifically for the UNPROFOR generals.

 9     They often violated deadlines or sought something that was not

10     permissible, even according to our regulations.  Again, I have to mention

11     General Van Baal.  Once he asked me for permission to transfer by

12     helicopter to Gorazde 80 litres of fuel.  The Gorazde enclave.  I

13     answered that I cannot approve that because our regulations do not allow

14     the transport of fuel in aircraft outside of the actual fuel tanks of the

15     aircraft.  He got angry with me, thinking that I -- I was not willing to

16     allow him to transport fuel.  Then I said, All right, General, you can

17     transport it, but let that be at your own responsibility.  And this is

18     what I wrote down that they can transport the fuel with the

19     responsibility for that being borne by the UNPROFOR command, wishing to

20     avoid the helicopter from blowing up in the air or something.

21             Other than that, UNPROFOR did not respect all the agreements.  I

22     think setting off from the position of the stronger party.  They did not

23     respect the required prior announcement times.  This was always cut

24     short.  They didn't respect the bills of lading that -- of cargos that

25     were being transported into the enclaves.  They would send us a list of

Page 14324

 1     material.  The check-point - I can see here, that you had agreed that

 2     there would be only one check-point at the -- in the territory of

 3     Republika Srpska - would find something completely different, then we

 4     would turn them back.  We would stop them, they would be accusing us of

 5     this and that.

 6             So looking at this document, General, sir, you are correct, and

 7     as far as those who are not correct are concerned they can seek

 8     clarification, if they are interested.

 9        Q.   All right, General.  Thank you.  Can we now again look at that

10     document P223 [as interpreted] and can we see page 46 of that document.

11     After that, we're going to look at page 60, just so that we can see that

12     we are talking about agreed-upon procedures.  Thank you.  And when you

13     see the contents of the document, you are going to give us your comment.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,

16     are you referring to the document P2233?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.  P2233, page

18     46.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We are looking at the document now.  And we can see that a

21     helicopter flight is sought to be approved, and Gvero's end approval and

22     my approval are being asked for.  I said yes because this was agreed upon

23     at the joint military commission.

24             But here where it says "no," those are not my initials there.  My

25     initials are next to the word "da," yes, and then somebody crossed it

Page 14325

 1     out.  So can we see here that I did approve and proposed to the commander

 2     of the Main Staff that these things be approved, pursuant to what was

 3     agreed at the joint commission?  And did we not, the two of us, you and

 4     I, always agree to respect the agreements made with UNPROFOR because this

 5     was something that was decided during our joint meetings and this was

 6     something that was agreed at that time?  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Tolimir,

 8     before we receive the answer of the witness, I have a problem with the

 9     way you are putting this question to the witness.  If you reflect on the

10     words you have used, it is more testimony of a witness but you are not

11     testifying here in the courtroom.  You may ask the witness if he would

12     agree to something, but this was slightly different, the way you put

13     this -- your knowledge about this document to the witness.  Please bear

14     that in mind for future questions.

15             Sir, would you please answer the question?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I can

17     re-phrase the question because we were talking about the situation and

18     not about how --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... that was --

20     it was just kind of guidance, and that's fine.  You should bear that in

21     mind for future questions.

22             And now, the witness, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this document was shown to me.

24     It was on the screen during the examination-in-chief, and it was unclear

25     to whom this "no" belongs to.  I assume that the initials are those of

Page 14326

 1     Milan Gvero, who crossed out your "yes" -- well, that is in keeping with

 2     the agreement made at the central commission, that "yes" of yours.  But

 3     the "no" was probably done out of lack of information or ignorance and

 4     you had offices next to each other, so I don't know why you didn't agree

 5     on it.

 6             I don't know who crossed out your "yes."

 7             There are two options:  One, that it was General Mladic who

 8     crossed it out when he saw Gvero's "no".  Because if you remember, I said

 9     today that Mladic did not get anything from your opinion.  One was for

10     and one was against.  So he was in the same dilemma that he was in before

11     he got the document back.  So I can just assume that this "no" was

12     crossed out by Gvero automatically, which he did not have the right to

13     do.

14             I can conclude also that perhaps Mladic crossed it out, that he

15     preferred Gvero's "no," that the mission is not approved, and, as you

16     know, Mladic obvious had the habit of taking revenge on those who were

17     not sticking to agreements.  So if UNPROFOR was not sticking to

18     agreements then Mladic probably was more inclined to Gvero's "no" than to

19     your "yes".  But all of these are just assumptions.  I shouldn't be

20     speculating.  I was not an eye-witness.  So all of this you can just

21     simply consider as being left without an answer.

22        Q.   Thank you, General.  Let's look at the upper left-hand side

23     corner of the document to see what it says.

24             And does it say, "on the approval of commander"?  Has this been

25     implemented in keeping with the commander's decision, in your view.

Page 14327

 1        A.   Well, you see, it is true that in the Latin script it says, "yes,

 2     on commander's approval."  I believe that this is your handwriting.  But

 3     the initials resemble Mladic's.  And yet the pen seems to be the same.

 4     It is confusing, to say the least.

 5             You are best placed to tell us whether this is, indeed, your

 6     handwriting.

 7        Q.   General, since I cannot put such proposals before this Chamber, I

 8     would simply kindly ask you to pick up a red pen to circle "yes" and the

 9     note, because the note was not translated.

10        A.   So you want me to circle this "yes" and "on commander's

11     approval"?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait.  The court usher will assist you

13     before you try to mark it.

14             Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And just want to make sure the General

16     understands that we are always open for agreement on facts and I think at

17     any point in time that can be done.  The General can agree without having

18     to testify whether something is his initials or whether he did something,

19     in my view, as long as he doesn't go into testimonial situations.

20             So if that is what he wants to do, we are open to that.  And, of

21     course, that is appropriate in this system, as -- as I know Mr. Gajic

22     knows.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, this is an invitation to negotiate about

24     agreed facts.

25             Sir, would you now please encircle what Mr. Tolimir asked you.

Page 14328

 1             He asked you to circle "yes" in the note.  Below the word "yes."

 2             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please place "MM" next to it so that we would know it was you.

 8     Place the initials on the circle you drew, not on the contents.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.  For the record, I wanted to state that

11     General Milovanovic merely circled something that was written by someone

12     else.  The words are "yes, on commander's approval."

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next have P2233 again.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, first are you tendering the document with

15     the marking?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document with the marking will be received as

18     an exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, page 46 of Exhibit P2233 shall be

20     assigned exhibit number D253.  Just for clarification, page was marked by

21     the witness in court.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, we do have the originals of these,

25     that, as you recall that the General had actually seen when he made his

Page 14329

 1     markings and sometimes the different ink colour comes out in those.  So I

 2     will those available.  I mean, we are about to end, just so the General

 3     and Mr. Gajic know, we will try to make those available because that may

 4     add to what is being testified to.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we have page 60

 8     of the document P2233.  Thank you.  We'll go through it quickly because

 9     we have seen it before.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You can see it now.  You marked something.  The upper note, was

12     it written by the person who implemented the obligations of the VRS

13     regarding the announcement of this helicopter flight which was also

14     supposed to include a VRS representative from Titov Drvar?

15        A.   I did not understand the question at all.  Please rephrase it.

16             Are you asking me whether the handwriting is the same as on the

17     previous document?  I'm sorry, I don't understand.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'll be happy to.

19             I'm not interested in the handwriting, because I do not dispute

20     handwritings and signatures.  I'm only interested in the contents.

21     Looking at the contents, is it clear that the helicopter was supposed to

22     land in Drvar to pick up a VRS representative?  And was it announced,

23     there was a Colonel Tomanovic in question, I believe, and was the

24     helicopter to continue to Banja Luka?  It doesn't matter who rode it.

25        A.   General Kelecevic learned of this at 10.05, and Colonel Tomanovic

Page 14330

 1     was informed at 12.20.

 2        Q.   Thank you, General.

 3             Thank you, Aleksandar.  I thought it says 12.05 next to

 4     Kelecevic's name, but it doesn't matter whether it's a 10 or a 12.  I

 5     accept what you say.

 6             Could we look at the bottom of the document now.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there an English translation available?  There

 8     is no English translation.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   General, can you see that, underneath your marking, it reads:

13     "The meeting was arranged in Titov Drvar" -- it's supposed to land in

14     Drvar on a playground.  And Pandzic is supposed to determine the

15     coordinates.

16             Does this mean that the arrangement on the landing of the

17     helicopter was implemented and was the agreement with UNPROFOR honoured

18     as such, and is that the reason why the document was initialed by the

19     commander?

20             I'll reformulate.  In this proposal, which you said was mine,

21     does it read:  "The meeting is arranged.  They are to land in Titov Drvar

22     on a playground, and Pandzic is supposed to determine the coordinates."

23             Was this a proposal made to the commander as to what was agreed

24     on?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14331

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, now we have a problem.  The document

 2     was tendered by the Prosecution for the purpose of identifying initials

 3     and signatures and handwritten -- and handwriting but not for the

 4     content.

 5             If you are going to deal with the content of these documents, we

 6     need an English translation.  Otherwise, we will not understand the

 7     content of it.  So I would kindly ask you to tender these documents,

 8     again, as a Defence document, and we will then decide if it should be

 9     marked for identification, pending translation, so that we have a full

10     picture of that.

11             Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I do intend to have these

13     fully translated so that you can see the content.  Because content, you

14     know, could be important.  I just was not planning on having this

15     witness, through direct, talk about content, but content is -- does have

16     relevance and is important, and we will endeavour to get these

17     translated, the ones where the General has -- has marked.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.  I would like to invite both

19     parties to negotiate about the best way to deal with the translation

20     issue.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these are OTP

23     documents.  We do not have English translations.  We have not received

24     them.  They did not receive them either.  The OTP probably believes --

25     these important -- documents to be important because they offered so many

Page 14332

 1     of them for tendering and because they introduced certain markings that

 2     the witness made regards the initials.  We have a few more questions

 3     about the contents, about the document.  Hopefully it won't be too long,

 4     but we will need another 20 minutes.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must adjourn for the day because we are at the

 6     end of today's hearing.  We --

 7             Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             We accept your proposal, and we propose that it be tendered on

10     behalf of the Defence as well, regards the contents.  Because the

11     initials are not a pure formality.  They always have to be read within

12     the context.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, I would like to invite both parties to

14     negotiate about the translation issue.  We come back to this problem

15     tomorrow because we have to continue with the cross-examination with this

16     witness tomorrow.

17             Could you indicate how much time you will need during your

18     further examination, cross-examination?  Because we received different

19     messages at the beginning of cross-examination and now by Mr. Gajic.

20     What is your estimation?

21             I think it is necessary for the Prosecution to plan the further

22     witnesses.

23             Mr. Gajic.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a small correction.  I

25     wanted to say that we will take some 20 minutes on these documents but we

Page 14333

 1     will need more time than that for other matters as well.

 2             If I may quickly consult with the accused.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             This time I want to ask the witness as well, since this is the

 5     last day before the weekend except tomorrow.  If he really needs to go

 6     home, I will adjust my questions accordingly.  We prepared our

 7     examination based on the Prosecutor's estimate, according to which, he

 8     was to examine the witness for three days.  If the witness wishes to go

 9     home tomorrow, so as not to spend the weekend in The Hague, I will adjust

10     my questions accordingly, so as to allow for some time for the Prosecutor

11     as well, if they want to examine the witness.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify the situation, the Prosecution had

13     indicated 12 hours.  They used in fact four hours and 55 minutes.  That

14     means nearly five hours, quite less than indicated earlier.

15             You have used, up to now, one hour and 22 minutes.  It is your

16     right to cross-examine and I just wanted to inquire your estimation for

17     the time you will need for the witness.  This is important for planning

18     purposes.  We have the full day tomorrow.  And the Prosecution has the

19     right to re-examine the witness.

20             Do you need the full session tomorrow or what is your position?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             I can tell you, but I would like to take the witness's opinion

23     into account.  If he wishes to leave, I will cut my questions short

24     tomorrow and conclude my cross-examination, and then I will use another

25     witness to introduce some questions I had prepared, according to the time

Page 14334

 1     estimate by the Prosecution.

 2             I would kindly ask for the witness to state his position for me

 3     to be able to give you my estimate so that we can conclude with him

 4     tomorrow safely.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I appreciate to get an answer from the witness,

 6     but, to make it very clear, it is the obligation of the witness to stay

 7     here as long as he is needed for cross-examination and re-examination.

 8             Mr. Milovanovic, what are your plans and obligations?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as I'm

10     concerned, there is no time limitation.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We adjourn now, and we will

12     resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of May,

16                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.