1 Wednesday, 25 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and
6 to those listening to these proceedings.
7 Are there any procedural matters?
8 Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
10 Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone.
11 There is one preliminary matter, Mr. President. I need to go
12 into private session for a moment.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
14 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness should be brought in, please.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please sit down.
16 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, you have already testified in this
18 trial. I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you
19 made at the beginning of your testimony many months ago still applies.
20 Today, you are testifying about another subject matter.
21 Mr. Vanderpuye will be putting questions to you.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon
25 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
1 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. I wanted to show you some video footage that the Prosecution has
4 tendered in this case because I'd like you to provide the Trial Chamber,
5 if you could, with some information relevant to the question of the
6 authenticity of this video footage.
7 The first video I'd like to show you is from 19 July, which
8 concerns the Jela Restaurant, and I'd like to show it to you first, and
9 then you can perhaps give us a little bit of information concerning its
10 provenance. It's P740, and I think we can start at just about the
11 beginning of the footage at 00, and we'll play it through 2 minutes,
12 44 seconds or so. So let's take a look at that.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Just stop the footage right now at 1:18.6.
15 Q. Can you tell us who this individual is with the moustache?
16 A. Yes. This individual is Mr. Indjic from the VRS. I forgot his
17 first name. I don't remember.
18 Q. Could it be Boban Indjic? If you don't remember, that's all
20 A. No, I don't think so he's Boban Indjic. It should be something
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should avoid leading
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc -- or perhaps you're asking the witness
2 about the basis of his knowledge about this, the identity of this person.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I was just about to. I was going to ask
4 him first to identify the location.
5 Q. Can you tell us about the location that we see here in the video
7 A. Yes. This is Jela Restaurant in Han Kram, near Han Pijesak.
8 Q. And how do you know that?
9 A. This is a footage, and we later on see when the agreement was
10 signed between the General Mladic, representing the VRS on one side, and
11 the UNPROFOR members, General Smith. And we know that this took place
12 from different sources. One of those would be witnesses who are present
13 at this meeting and who testified here in this trial, and we interviewed
14 them before. There are then several documents, in particular this
15 agreement which was signed there, and from these sources we can conclude
16 this is Jela Restaurant.
17 Q. All right. Have you been to this restaurant yourself?
18 A. I was at that location, but at the time when I was there, the
19 building was not there anymore. It's destroyed right now. So I haven't
20 entered the actual building, but I was at that spot, yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let me play a little bit more of the
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. --
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, I have a question for you, Mr. Janc.
2 Were you there in this restaurant? First, that's the question,
3 first question. The second question: How can you tell, by looking at
4 this room in which this gentleman is standing, that this is the
5 Jela Restaurant?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I think I've answered part of
7 your question and that I was not inside this restaurant, because at the
8 time when I was there, for my first time, that was in 2006, the building
9 was not there anymore, so I couldn't enter it. That this is going on in
10 this restaurant I can tell from the statements which were taken from the
11 witnesses which are present in this restaurant. Particularly I'm
12 referring here to Mr. David Wood, who I interviewed in London back then,
13 I think, in 2007 or 2008, and he identified this building as being -- and
14 this room as being the Jela Restaurant.
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question.
17 In which way did you know -- or did you get information about the
18 identity of the person of Mr. Indjic ?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would say through same sources. I think,
20 also, David Wood told us about him, and he was very often present at that
21 time in these meetings, attending these meetings with UNPROFOR, because
22 he was interpreting for -- from B/C/S into English and from English into
23 B/C/S for the VRS. So from these sources we know, basically from the
24 sources we interviewed, that this is this individual.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Let's just play this on through 2 minutes and 43 seconds.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. VANDERPUYE:
6 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us -- I'm sorry, we stopped at 1 minute,
7 35 seconds again.
8 Can you tell us who we have in the frame?
9 A. Yeah, okay, I will try to remember, because I don't see the
10 picture on the screen anymore. Far right, I think it --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Don't you have the picture in front of you?
12 THE WITNESS: No, it's -- just a second.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher should assist you.
14 THE WITNESS: Ah, now it is. Thank you. It was different
16 So, yes, let me start maybe from the left-hand side. This is
17 General Ratko Mladic, and next to him is General Rupert Smith, and the
18 last one on the right-hand side we can see is Colonel Baxter from
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can play it through a little bit,
21 and then I'd like to show you a document.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped it at 2 minutes, 41.9 seconds.
24 I'd like to show you, if I could, Mr. Janc, P1977.
25 Q. First, have you seen this document before, Mr. Janc?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And can you tell us what it is, what it's about?
3 A. It is an UNPROFOR report, I think, regarding this meeting at
4 Jela Restaurant on 19th of July, 1995.
5 Q. And does it correspond to the video footage that we've seen
6 concerning the 19 July meeting between General Smith and General Mladic?
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to go to the next page, if I could.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I wouldn't want to take up the Prosecutor's time, but this video
12 footage was already identified when Mr. Rupert Smith was here and his
13 associates, and I don't know why do we have to do it again, although I
14 have no complaints about it being tendered and accepted into evidence.
15 And, secondly, there is no translation. I don't know what's
16 being discussed here. I don't speak English. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, both the document -- the video and this
18 document are already in evidence, and we have seen the video. It's up to
19 the Prosecution to decide. And what about the translation,
20 Mr. Vanderpuye?
21 Now I see it. We have it on the screen.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, if there's no objection to the
23 video evidence being received -- I understood that it was MFI'd, but if
24 it's otherwise admitted in evidence and there's no objection to it, then
25 I think there is not much need to authenticate it. In any event, I will
1 have Mr. Janc briefly --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I just was informed by the
3 Registrar that you're right, the video is MFI'd and not admitted into
4 evidence yet.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Mr. Janc, did you have an opportunity to review this document?
7 As you can see from the title, it's from Lieutenant-Colonel Baxter, and
8 it concerns a meeting -- it's dated July 19, 1995, and concerns a meeting
9 between General Smith and General Mladic. Did you consult this in
10 evaluating the provenance of the video footage that we've seen?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And you can see here, at the end of paragraph 1, a reference
13 to -- well, the sentence reads that:
14 "General Mladic was accompanied by General Tolimir and
15 Lieutenant-Colonel Indic."
16 Can you tell us about that in relation to the footage that we've
18 A. Yes, I can. As we have seen and identified
19 Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic on the video before, and also from the video we
20 could see the face of General Tolimir also being present before the
21 meeting, before the agreement has been signed, and he was there. And
22 also from the comments made later on by General Mladic during the meeting
23 itself, when the agreement was signed, Mladic has referred to him, to
24 General Tolimir, several times.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we should see the sequence of the
1 video again where we can see Mr. Tolimir.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll do that.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As indicated by the witness.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
6 Q. Are you able to tell who this individual is? We're at 00:24.6.
7 A. Yes, this is General Tolimir.
8 Q. How do you know?
9 A. I think we have a little bit better picture before this frame, a
10 little bit -- we can see a little bit more of him. And also he was
11 identified by David Wood during the interview.
12 Q. Identified by David Wood during the interview that you conducted
13 with him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Have you seen other photographs of General Tolimir from this
17 A. Yes. Not only photographs. We have also other videos from this
18 time -- from that time, about General Tolimir being present at different
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can roll on a little bit further
21 to see what General Mladic says about General Tolimir. And we'll have to
22 go to the part where General Mladic and General Smith are together, so
23 that's -- yeah, this is probably a good place to start. That's at
24 1 minute, 26 seconds.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Here, we've stopped at 2 minutes -- pretty much
2 2 minutes even, and we see General Mladic saying:
3 "I'll go, but General Tolimir will stay here."
4 Q. Is that what you were referring to previously in response to the
5 questions from the Bench?
6 A. Yes, but not only this, because this is only a segment of the
7 entire video and also the segment of this meeting itself. We have a much
8 longer portion of this meeting on the tape itself, and several times --
9 at least one or two more times during this meeting General Mladic is
10 referring to General Tolimir. At one point, he refers to him just as
11 "Toso." As we know, that was his nickname at that time, so -- but also
12 as "General Tolimir."
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
14 Mr. President, I would like to tender this video footage to be
15 received in evidence.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as P740.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. I would like to show you another video, Mr. Janc. That one is
20 We're right at the beginning of this frame. It's 00:14.9.
21 And before I play it: Can you tell us, first of all, do you
22 recognise this scene?
23 A. Yes, I do. It's the outside of this same Jela Restaurant, and
24 this is now on 20 of July, 1995, one day after that one we see -- we just
25 saw. And this is actually the farewell ceremony or party for
1 General Milenko Zivanovic.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'm going to play you some of this
3 footage and then I'll ask you some questions about it.
4 So let's play this through 1 minute and 52 seconds.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please stop here. Mr. Gajic wants to
7 comment something.
8 Mr. Gajic.
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to all.
10 Mr. President, we are not able to hear anything. We don't have
11 any sound.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I agree, we don't hear anything, that's right.
13 We only see the subtitles.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I agree. We'll try and work that out. There is
15 sound, for sure, on this segment of the video, so I think we have just a
16 technical problem to work out.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I hear something now. I wonder if you can hear
19 it. We may have to turn the headphones up somewhat, but I can hear the
20 sound now.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, we hear it as well.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Shall we try again, then? We'll start
23 right at the beginning.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, I think we should do that.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play it. Thanks.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped it now at 1:14.9.
3 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us who the individual is in the middle --
4 just about the middle of this frame?
5 A. Yes. This is General Manojlo Milovanovic.
6 Q. And how do you know that?
7 A. I think he identified himself during this trial, and also I met
8 him before, several times, or at least two times before, so I can confirm
9 that's him.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Let's continue playing, please.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've now stopped it at 1:32.7.
13 Q. Can you tell us who the individual is with the hand on his chest
14 or abdomen?
15 A. Yes. This is General Milenko Zivanovic, up until that time the
16 commander of Drina Corps.
17 Q. And how do you know that?
18 A. For this individual, I know that that's him from statements I've
19 read and from -- of different individuals who identified him who were
20 shown the photograph of him. And also he was interviewed not by me, but
21 by the other members of the OTP, and from that interview he identified
22 himself as well. And he was one of the sources who gave us this video
23 during that interview.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have
1 anything against admitting anything, but Mr. Vanderpuye could ask
2 Mr. Janc does he know any other persons in this footage and who is who,
3 because this is recognition on the basis of the film, not on the basis of
4 experience or knowledge. I don't know why this is being done. Thank
5 you. We are putting the witness and the Prosecutor in an uncomfortable
6 position, as well as the Trial Chamber, to accept hearsay.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm not quite sure what the basis of the
9 objection is. It seems that the witness has identified General Zivanovic
10 in connection with General Zivanovic's own statement, among other
11 sources, so as to testify about the provenance of the footage that we
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, of course it's a problem. The
14 witness was not present on the spot when this video was taken, so that we
15 must get clear and precise information about the specific source, with
16 whom he discussed the video, who was the person who identified specific
17 the people depicted in the video. So that it can't be enough to say, He
18 was interviewed by an investigator of the OTP. We need a bit more
19 specific answers.
20 Judge Nyambe wants to add something.
21 JUDGE NYAMBE: In fact, Mr. Vanderpuye, just to add on to what
22 the Presiding Judge has said, you had the opportunity to produce this
23 video footage through -- I may not be able to pronounce the name, but the
24 deputy commander to General Mladic, who is shown in the footage, who was
25 a witness here just a few days ago.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Your Honour, and I believe the
2 footage was shown to him during the course of his testimony. I
3 understand that the footage was marked for identification in relation to
4 that, which I'm not sure why. If he identified himself on the footage
5 itself, I'm not sure why it was marked for identification.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I recall correctly, and I was informed by the
8 Registrar, it was marked for identification not because the people were
9 not identified by the witness, Milovanovic, but the transcript and the
10 translation of the transcript was not produced at that time. And I think
11 this is now available. We saw the subtitles, and I would like to ask you
12 if we have a full translation of the subtitles in both languages. That
13 was the reason we only marked it for identification.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see, Mr. President.
15 I think we do, and if you'll bear with me, I can verify that for
17 In addition, I do have and I was intending to present the
18 Trial Chamber with the statement of General Milovanovic, who was depicted
19 in this footage - actually, in the frame that we have before us right
20 now - in which he identifies himself and he identifies this meeting that
21 actually took place on the 20th, which I think obviously is of relevance
22 to the authenticity of the video footage, in addition to
23 General Milovanovic's identification of himself as having been there.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember
1 correctly, and I think it would be good for all of us to be reminded at
2 this time, specifically that this part was not shown to
3 Witness Milovanovic when he testified here, only the sections from the
4 restaurant and, if I remember correctly, near a chopper that is seen here
5 in the footage considerably later, I belive. So what we're looking at
6 now, I think we did not see before, when General Milovanovic was here.
7 Only a few seconds were played to him of this particular segment, perhaps
8 a minute or so.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's my recollection as well, but I think that
11 the video footage is continuous. And so to the extent that we have an
12 individual who identifies himself as being at a meeting in one part of
13 the footage, and the continuity of that footage shows other parts of that
14 meeting, it seems to me that having identified himself at the beginning
15 part of the video-tape bears on the authenticity or the provenance of the
16 entirety of the tape, particularly since he confirmed that he was at this
17 going-away, he also confirmed that General Mladic was at the going-away,
18 and I believe he also confirmed some of the substance of what the
19 gathering was about.
20 And I think that the video footage, in its entirety, or at least
21 the parts I intend to show, substantiate that. And that's the basis of
22 the relevance of showing these other parts of the footage as well as
23 introducing other components which support its authenticity and
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That part of the video we are discussing about
1 was shown to the witness Manojlo Milovanovic on the 18th of May, 2011,
2 and the Chamber decided already to receive it as an exhibit, but only
3 mark it until we have received the translation and the transcript.
4 That's all. And therefore I'm not sure if it's really necessary to
5 identify those people to be shown on the video who are already identified
6 by an eye-witness who took part in this meeting; for instance,
7 Witness Milovanovic. He testified about the helicopter flight, the
8 arrival of General Mladic, in other parts of this video.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, Mr. President. I understand.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And, again, please help us and tell us if the
11 transcript and the translation is available.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think there's not a translation available. As
13 you know, the video footage itself is in B/C/S, so I think Mr. Gajic can
14 understand that. It is subtitled, so there's not an English
15 transcription of it. But, clearly, if that will assist the Court, we'll
16 get that done. I don't think the entirety of the video is subtitled. A
17 good portion of it is, and that's what I intended to show the
18 Trial Chamber. And if Mr. Gajic has an objection to the subtitles, as
19 they compare to the B/C/S audio, I'm sure that he will let us know about
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again, this is the only matter we should
22 discuss with this video, because there was no doubt that this one is an
23 authentic document. And, in fact, we decided on the admission of this
24 document already. So I would kindly ask you to consider if it is
25 necessary to ask this witness to identify people present in addition to
1 the identification of some people who have been present on the spot.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 I'll do my best to avoid that. I'm not sure exactly who's
4 identified whom in all of this footage, because we have quite a bit of
5 footage, but I'll do my best to avoid that, if at all possible. There is
6 one other individual, though, I did want him to try and identify, whom
7 I'm not sure has been identified thus far, so I'd like to ask him about
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Mr. Janc, do you see this individual who is behind
12 General Zivanovic to his left? That would be over his left shoulder.
13 That would be to the right on the frame in front of us.
14 A. Yes, I see this one, but it's not -- the picture is not clear, so
15 I can't say anything right now who that might be.
16 Q. All right. If we play it a little bit from this point forward,
17 let us know if you're able to do that. We're at 1:32.7.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. VANDERPUYE:
20 Q. Are you able to identify that individual?
21 A. Yes, correct, this is General Momir Talic. He was at that time
22 the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps of the VRS.
23 Q. And how do you know that?
24 A. He was indictee of this Tribunal. That's one source. I think
25 also during this video footage he is referred several times as
1 General Momir Talic. And also he gives a pistol to General Zivanovic at
2 one point in time during this ceremony, inside the -- inside the
3 restaurant, and we have a kind of a document from him, from
4 General Talic, regarding this pistol.
5 Q. All right. Is he mentioned at all during the course of the
6 interview that was conducted with General Zivanovic?
7 A. Yes, he is, indeed. So he's also mentioned in his interview.
8 Q. In what context?
9 A. I think in context of this, of getting a pistol from him, and
10 that's when we were also provided with the document from
11 General Zivanovic about this pistol.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play forward a little bit.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should first state the time when you have
14 stopped it.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 We're at 1:38.6.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are referring to the person at the right
18 side of the frame; is that correct?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 Judge Nyambe has a question.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: You said you have had occasion to -- no, no, no,
23 that's not what you're saying. Sorry. And I'll rephrase my question.
24 Have you had occasion to meet General Momir Talic face to face,
1 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, because he passed away many years
2 ago, I think in 1996, 1997, something like that.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: So your knowledge of him is from other sources,
4 secondary sources?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. You may continue.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. Thank you, Judge Nyambe.
8 Q. The secondary source, in terms of your identification of
9 Momir Talic, did that come from the Tribunal?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. Was that a photograph of him as a suspect or an indictee of the
13 A. Yes, correct.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Let's play forward here from 1:38.6.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Actually, we can play forward. I'm sorry.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE:
19 Q. Can you tell us where these gentlemen are? We're stopped, I'm
20 sorry, at 1:55.1. Where is this?
21 A. Now they are inside the Jela Restaurant. Where exactly, which
22 room, I don't know.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I'd like to do is to go forward to
25 19:34.11. I think that's right. And we can play it forward from here.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 21:18.1.
3 Q. And here we see -- well, you tell us. Tell us if you agree that
4 this is General Mladic in this frame. Yes?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. And did you receive any information or did you learn any
7 information concerning General Mladic's arrival here by helicopter, as we
8 see in the footage?
9 A. I don't understand. In what sense do you mean?
10 Q. Did you read anything that said that he arrived there or hear any
11 testimony in this case, concerning this meeting, indicating that
12 General Mladic arrived by helicopter?
13 A. Yes, General Mladic was talking about it, and I think also
14 General Milovanovic during his interview, when he was interviewed.
15 Q. All right. I'd like to play you another part of this video
16 footage, starting at 23:39.4.
17 And before I play it, let me ask you this: Did you have any
18 information about what transpired during this particular gathering on the
19 20th of July?
20 A. No, I don't understand.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's play the footage.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We've stopped at 33:54.3.
24 And I'd like to play for you, Mr. Janc, starting at 42:48.66. We
25 can play it now from 42:48.0.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Here we stopped at 44:10.1.
3 Q. And we can see General Zivanovic is holding up a gun, Mr. Janc,
4 and you can see next to him the individual who you identified previously
5 as Momir Talic. Is this the portion you referred to when you spoke about
6 Momir Talic giving Zivanovic, General Zivanovic, a gun?
7 A. Yes, correct.
8 Q. And did you find that in the statement of General Zivanovic when
9 you read it?
10 A. Correct.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play this footage through
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. We've stopped it at 47:02.9.
15 Q. We can see from this footage, Mr. Janc, that it's somewhat of a
16 festive occasion. Can you tell us, or remind us, rather, when this
17 occurred relative to the executions that occurred at the Branjevo Farm?
18 A. This was four days later.
19 Q. And during the course of this, we could see that General Mladic
20 made some comments concerning Gorazde and Bihac. Can you just remind us
21 of what those areas were back then in 1995?
22 A. Gorazde was enclave. For Bihac, I'm not sure.
23 Q. Okay. And what about Zepa?
24 A. At that time still, yes.
25 Q. And can you tell us or just remind us when this celebration
1 occurred relative to the executions at Bisina?
2 A. It is three day before.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'd like to show you --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to state that
5 the last part of the video we have seen was not subtitled. We only heard
6 some parts of the speech and other voices.
7 Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 With all due respect, I have to emphasise that this witness was
10 called in order to identify the footage, rather than providing any
11 information or arguments to the Prosecution concerning something that
12 happened later. So I would ask that this be taken into account. Thank
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 You are correct, the last part of the transcript -- I'm not sure
18 where it cut out, but somewhere around 40 minutes the subtitles did end.
19 I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 2783. This is the OTP
20 statement of General Zivanovic from 2001. We'll have to go to page 17 in
21 the English and page 12 in the B/C/S, please.
22 Q. And I just want to refer you to the last two paragraphs in the
23 English, and here you can see General Zivanovic, during the course of
24 this interview, is presenting a pistol. He says:
25 "I never fired a bullet."
1 And read -- and he says that it reads -- the description reads:
2 "To the commander of the Drina Corps, General M. Zivanovic."
3 Then it says:
4 "1 KK, the 1st Krajina Corps, 12th, 7 July -- the 12th, 1995."
5 He says:
6 "This gun -- this -- the gun and the document are presented ..."
7 And the transcript reads that it's indiscernible.
8 "... when they would be ... where Talic was also present. I now
9 have a cassette which explains a lot, at the ceremony of my departure on
10 July the 20th ..."
11 And then it says.
12 "... at Motel Jela on Romanija."
13 Is that what you were referring to previously in respect of this
14 video footage?
15 A. Yes, exactly.
16 Q. And here it's referred to as the Motel Jela. Is that the same as
17 the location that we've seen in this footage?
18 A. Most likely it is, but I'm not sure why general was referring
19 here to motel rather than to a restaurant.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thanks very much, Mr. Janc.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: As stated in the transcript, we are looking at the
23 statement of General Zivanovic. Is it my understanding that he has since
24 died? Am I correct?
25 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour. General Zivanovic is still alive.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: But General Momir Talic, who gave a pistol to
3 General Zivanovic, he passed away.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. In any event, my next question is: Did
5 you -- are you the one who took this statement from the person who gave
7 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, it wasn't me. It was my
8 colleague, Investigator Allistair Graham, and this was in Belgrade.
9 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 I know that this video is still MFI'd, pending the appropriate
13 translations, and we'll see to it that the Trial Chamber is provided with
14 that. Other than that condition, I would propose to admit it.
15 I would like to show the --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was already decided.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have another question, for a better
20 We see, in the B/C/S version of the statement given by
21 General Zivanovic to the OTP, we see there the abbreviation "AG," that
22 seems to be Mr. Graham; and the abbreviation "MZ," that seems to be the
23 witness, Zivanovic. What about the others? "PMC," who is that? Can you
24 help us?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, Your Honour. This one is referring
1 to Peter McCloskey, who was also present during this interview.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 I think if we go to the very first page we might be able to see
6 all of this. That may be helpful to the Trial Chamber.
7 Here, we can see who are the parties that are present, and it
8 indicates that Allistair Graham is there, Senior Trial Attorney
9 Peter McCloskey is there, General Milenko Zivanovic is there, and then
10 there's also an interpreter there by the name of
11 Miljena Petkovic [phoen], and also Mirka Zivanovic, who is
12 General Zivanovic's wife. And the date is indicated as 30th of October,
14 I won't be tendering this particular document. I think it's
15 sufficient that it's shown to the Trial Chamber. But I would like to
16 show the witness another video footage which I have here as P740.
17 I just want to show you this footage from the same video-tape as
18 the 19 July Jela Restaurant meeting in Han Kram. This, you can see,
19 indicates UN check-point Boksanica, 24 July 1995, and it's pretty short.
20 We'll play it through to -- well, we're at 35:32, and we'll play it
21 through 35:41, please.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Can you tell us who is the individual here in the blue suit in
25 this video footage?
1 A. Yes. This is General Tolimir.
2 Q. And can you tell who the person is to the left of
3 General Tolimir, maybe not in this frame, but have you seen this footage
5 A. Yes, I've seen it several times.
6 Q. Are you able to tell us who the individual is to the left -- to
7 General Tolimir's right, that is, to the left on this frame?
8 A. So to his right or to our left-hand side is the person who we can
9 see only half of it. This is commander of the Rogatica Brigade,
10 Rajko Kusic.
11 Q. And how do you know that?
12 A. He was identified several times from different witnesses
13 showing -- who were shown this video or similar videos from this point
14 and time, and they identified him.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, we stopped at 35:41.7.
16 Secondly, I would like to ask you: What is the source of your
17 identification of the man in the blue jacket?
18 THE WITNESS: This individual and all other individuals were also
19 identified by Mr. Hamdija Torlak, I think, also when he testified here
20 for this trial and exactly this footage was shown to him. And he
21 explained in detail who these individuals are there and when exactly this
22 took place.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 So as not to waste more time about this, can we please show the
2 footage, a moving image, so that we could find out how this meeting came
3 to take place and whether this has been edited or not?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, one simple question: Do you identify
9 the man in the blue jacket as the person present here in the courtroom?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the same person?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are referring to the testimony of
14 Mr. Torlak?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct. And also we can see this same
16 individual, General Tolimir, on other footages and other videos from this
17 same time-frame period, and I can confirm this is the same person.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 If I didn't put it on the record, we've stopped at 35:41.7, and
21 I'd like to play it through to 36:11.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
24 Q. We saw that at a certain point this footage became less clear
25 than it was originally, and I would like, if you could, to provide the
1 Trial Chamber with some indication about the source of this video
3 A. Yes. This segment that we have just seen is taken from the
4 documentary on Avdo Palic's story, which the OTP obtained in 2000, and
5 this segment was part of this documentary. And why the certain -- at a
6 certain moment the footage was changed, it's just because on that
7 documentary the camera is actually taking picture of the television,
8 where the footage is playing, and at one point the picture becomes less
9 clear. So that's why we can also see, here, that difference.
10 Q. Does that mean that the footage that we see from 35:33.50, or
11 about where we started initially, between that and the end, where we've
12 stopped now at 36:12, that that footage is not continuous, it's been
14 A. Yes, we can say that, yes.
15 Q. Do you know if the OTP has made any efforts to identify the
16 source of the video footage that we see here and, in particular, the
17 video footage you say is shot of a television showing these events?
18 A. Yes, we tried to obtain this footage also from the other sources.
19 And because this was our first source -- the Avdo Palic's documentary was
20 our first source from whom we obtained this video, and we contacted the
21 producer or director of this documentary in order to get the video from
22 him, and he referred us to the BH authorities because, according to him,
23 he was not in possession of this video.
24 And during my investigation, we have asked the authorities in
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina if they can provide us with video of this same
1 event, and, indeed, just recently they sent us a footage -- a longer
2 footage of the events which occurred around Zepa at that time, and one
3 segment of this bigger footage also included this same segment from
4 24 of July. Also, there is a third source which I actually obtained from
5 publicly-available YouTube. So there is a third one which we can also
6 get from that public-available source. So it's not the only source we
7 have. So we have confirmed this video, this footage, from other sources
8 as well.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would have some questions for the witness, but
10 we should do that and continue after the break.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the break now, and we will resume quarter
13 past 4.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I would like to ask you to bear
17 in mind the time you are spending with this witness. You indicated two
18 hours. And when we look into the witness summary you provided to the
19 Chamber, I think the most important thing is to identify not the persons
20 depicted in the videos, but the source. And just before the break,
21 Mr. Janc told us something about different types of videos obtained from
22 different sources. This is, in fact, the gist of the testimony of this
23 witness at this stage in the trial. We should avoid just to see all the
24 documents or the videos again which are already in evidence and we
25 discussed it earlier. They are only marked for identification until we
1 receive the transcript and the translation.
2 So please focus on the specific questions you wanted to put to
3 the witness, especially as he was not an eye-witness of the events
4 depicted in these videos, and we have had some of the persons depicted
5 there as witnesses in the Tribunal, as Mr. Torlak, Mr. Milovanovic, and
7 Please go ahead, and I would like to ask you to discuss a bit
8 more the sources of these three types of the video we have seen before
9 the break.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. That's
11 exactly where I was headed.
12 Q. Mr. Janc, you indicated that efforts were made to contact BH
13 authorities with respect to this footage that we've just seen, and that's
14 the 24th July Boksanica footage, P740.
15 I'd like to show you 65 ter 7390.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: While that's loading up -- okay. This is a
17 document that was not part of the original 65 ter list. It was received
18 by the OTP in March. It's dated 11 March 2011, Mr. President, and I'd
19 like to add it to the 65 ter list because I think it responds directly to
20 the issues you're concerned about.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to do that.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Do you recognise this document, Mr. Janc?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And what does it relate to?
1 A. This relates to the video I was discussing before which was
2 provided to us, as you can see here, in March 2011 from the
3 State Investigative and Protection Agency of the BiH. And they obtained
4 it from the BiH Radio/Television, as you will see from the following
6 Q. On this first page, it indicates that it responds to a request
7 for all video footage relating to Zepa in July 1995. Is that, in fact,
8 what was requested?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. And with respect to the material that was received, can you tell
11 us what that material was? What did it contain?
12 A. Yes. It's a compilation of the footages which were broadcasted
13 at the time regarding Zepa events and what the BiH Radio and Television
14 was able to identify and found in their archives, and that's what they
15 provided to the State Investigative and Protective Agency.
16 Q. May I show you the next page, please, of this document. Can you
17 tell us what this is? Have you seen it before and can you tell us what
18 it is?
19 A. Yes, I've seen this before. And this is what I was referring to,
20 a letter from the Radio and Television of Bosnia and Herzegovina which
21 was provided along with the videos to the BiH state authorities. I mean
23 Q. Is this a list of the material that was received or the
24 programmes or footage that was received by the OTP from the B&H
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. All right.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7390 shall be
6 assigned Exhibit P2239. Thank you.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to also add to the
8 65 ter list 65 ter 7389. This is the video footage that was received by
9 the OTP as per this -- as per this exhibit.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 And we'll need to play this from about 20 seconds. It seems
14 about right. I'm sorry, 20 minutes. 20 minutes. I think that's right,
15 20 minutes.
16 Okay, let's see if this is right. We can play it.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE:
19 Q. First, let me just ask: Have you seen this footage before?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. Okay. And does it correspond to the footage that we previously
22 saw in Exhibit P740?
23 A. Yes, it does.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I apologise to the Court. We don't have
25 subtitles for this, so we don't have a translation for you. But let's
1 play it through anyway.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. VANDERPUYE:
4 Q. Were you able to compare this footage to the footage that was
5 in -- I'm sorry, we've stopped at 20:30.7.
6 Were you able to compare this footage to the footage that we saw
7 earlier in P740?
8 A. Yes, I was.
9 Q. And does it -- is it the same footage or is it footage of the
10 same event, perhaps from a different angle or something like that?
11 A. It is the same event and it is the same camera.
12 Q. You indicated earlier that you were able to locate this -- the
13 footage of this event, you said, through publicly-available sources.
14 I think you mentioned YouTube.
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And were you able to compare that footage to the footage both in
17 P740 and to this footage, which is 65 ter 7389 for the moment?
18 A. Yes, I was, and they are all the same.
19 Q. Okay. Are they of the same event or are they the same, in other
20 words, shot by the same camera, as opposed to shot from a different angle
21 or something like this?
22 A. It is the same event and the same camera, from the same angle.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender
25 65 ter 7389.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification until we see
2 and we receive the transcript and the translation.
3 Mr. Tolimir.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
5 Because there was mention of editing during the examination of this
6 witness, I would like to know whether the OTP handed this in for an
7 expertise to determine what was edited and what was not. Maybe it would
8 be better to have it admitted only after an expertise has been done.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The statement of Mr. Janc about editing a video
10 was made in relation to the previous document, P740, and not in relation
11 to this one we just have received. In addition, you may deal with that
12 in your cross-examination.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7389 shall be
14 assigned Exhibit P --
15 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. Now the Registrar has the floor.
17 THE REGISTRAR: With your leave, Your Honours, 65 ter document
18 7389 shall be assigned Exhibit P2240, marked for identification, pending
19 translation and transcription. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.
23 I cannot ask either the witness or the Prosecutor about why would
24 this be admitted or not. I'm asking you: Is it true that we are
25 admitting all documents, regardless of the fact whether they may have
1 been tampered with during editing or not? Is it all right to admit
2 something that was edited as a credible piece of evidence, because this
3 witness here is to help us with the credibility?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has ruled on that. We
5 have already marked that for identification. And, again, the editing
6 question was in relation to another document, not to this one. And you
7 may ask the witness about the editing process with the other document,
8 P740. No problem with that.
9 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 I have a --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I would like to add: This is exactly the
13 purpose of cross-examination. You have received all the material, you
14 have the witness summary, and this is the issue Mr. Vanderpuye is dealing
15 with. And this is now, then, the purpose of your cross-examination.
16 Please carry on.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 I would like to show the witness another video-clip. It's
19 65 ter 5507. I think we'll need to go into private session for this one.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
21 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours. Thank
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 We're in -- I've asked to be in private session, Mr. President,
1 because this video-clip is untitled -- an un-subtitled version of P2228.
2 I think that was used in the -- during the course of
3 General Milovanovic's testimony, and some issue arose with respect to the
4 status of the exhibit, which has not yet been resolved. And so I
5 thought, out of an abundance of caution, I should show this clip, because
6 it's part of that same material, in private session.
7 I just want to start out at, I think it should be 49:21 on this
8 clip, and then I will play it through just for a few seconds and then
9 switch to the subtitled version so the Trial Chamber can follow.
10 Q. Can you see, first of all, the frame that's in e-court now,
11 Mr. Janc?
12 A. Yes, I can.
13 Q. And are you able to identify, just from this frame, what this
14 location is?
15 A. Yes. This is an area south from Crna Rijeka, near Potplanje and
16 Planje area.
17 Q. And how were you able to make that determination?
18 A. When listening the video itself, from the content, you can
19 conclude what the participants of this conversation are talking about,
20 and exactly they are referring to some villages which are underneath this
21 area, and they are referring to the villages as Planje and Potplanje.
22 And when we obtained this video, the OTP has made an effort to try to
23 identify this location, where exactly this is. And my colleague,
24 Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk, was going on the field, and he was able to
25 find this location, and he took some picture of it and then took the GPS
1 readings, and he was able to confirm that this is, indeed, that location;
2 not only based on this photo, what we can see on the screen, but we'll
3 have a little bit more area visible on the video itself.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can play this through just for a
5 few seconds.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be helpful, for a better
7 understanding of what we are going to see, if you could, with the
8 witness, elaborate a little bit more about the source of this video,
9 where he got it from, and, yeah, including the question of editing. That
10 would be helpful.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. First of all, can you tell us what the source of this video is,
13 Mr. Janc?
14 A. Yes. The OTP obtained this video -- or actually received on
15 24 of August, 2009, from the authorities of the Republic of Canada. And
16 during the interrogation of their citizen, Mr. Milan Lesic, at the
17 beginning of August of that year, they seized this particular video from
18 him. And this individual is the representative of Serb community in
19 Canada, and I've been discussing -- actually, testifying about this video
20 and another video which was also provided by him to the authorities of
21 the -- Canada on the same day when I testified about the meeting in -- on
22 16 of July in Belgrade with Mladic and other persons present and on
23 17 of July. That was during my last testimony. And from the same
24 source, on the same date, we also obtained this video.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we might as well explore
1 this now.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could show the witness, please, 65 ter
3 6580. That's under seal.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I don't believe we have a
6 translation of this document. I'll read a bit of it into the record so
7 that General Tolimir can have some acquaintance with what it is. It's
8 dated 21 August 2009. It's -- the stationary, or letterhead, indicates
9 "Department of Justice, Canada, Ontario Regional Office," and it is
10 directed to the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY, and it refers to:
11 "Dear Mr. Piekos."
12 Q. Can you tell us who that is, Mr. Janc?
13 A. Yes. This individual is the investigator of the OTP.
14 Q. And then it says:
15 "Regarding Lesic, Milan, court file number ...," and it says
16 "Crim Mot F," and then it gives a number, "... witness evidence hearing
17 6th and 7th August, 2009, Superior Court of Justice (Central West
18 Region - Brampton)."
19 And the letter indicates as follows:
20 "Please find enclosed a certified copy of the sending-abroad
21 order dated August 20, 2009, signed by the Honourable Senior Regional
22 Madam Justice F. Van Melle of the Superior Court of Justice (Central West
23 Region - Brampton)."
24 And then it says in the next paragraph:
25 "... find enclosed a copy of the report of the Honourable ...
1 Justice ... Van Melle ..."
2 And it says:
3 "Attached to the report is a copy of the exhibit list containing
4 four pages of documented exhibits.
5 "Also find enclosed are various-sized envelopes containing actual
6 exhibits corresponding to the exhibit list which were all produced by
7 Mr. Milan Lesic during his testimony heard ... on August 6th and 7, 2009,
8 before ... Justice ... Van Melle."
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you explain why this was put under seal?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can. I'm just about to go to the next page of
13 it, and I think that explains it.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 If we go to the next page of this document, we'll see the
17 sending-abroad order. I'm sorry, the page after that. Okay.
18 Q. Here, you can -- this is entitled -- for the benefit of
19 General Tolimir, it's entitled "Superior Court of Justice (Central West
20 Region), and it says:
21 "In the matter of an application pursuant to Section 20 of the
22 Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act for sending-abroad order
23 regarding the examination of a witness pursuant to Section 18(2)(a) of
24 the Act, and in the matter of a request for assistance from the
25 United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the former
2 Essentially, this, in paragraph 1, orders that all original
3 exhibits filed during the examination of Milan Lesic on 6th and 7th 2009
4 [sic], which are described in the attached list, be sent forthwith to the
5 ICTY OTP. That's in paragraph 1.
6 And if we go to two pages up to 65 -- to ERN ending 19, this,
7 hopefully, is responsive to Your Honour's question, and this, in
8 paragraph 7, reads that:
9 "The Court further orders that the OTP not provide any of the
10 items provided by Milan Lesic to third parties or publish or distribute
11 those items in any fashion, except for the purposes of conducting
12 prosecutions before the ICTY and in providing disclosure in the course of
13 those prosecutions, and for the purpose of assisting other law
14 enforcement agencies in the investigation or prosecution of war crimes or
15 crimes against humanity in the former Yugoslavia."
16 Essentially, this is the basis upon which the documents were
17 furnished to the OTP and explains the nature of the restriction with
18 respect to their use in open session. There is some question about the
19 scope of the restriction, but in an abundance of caution at this point,
20 we think it's appropriate to proceed in a private session.
21 If we go to ERN ending 21, page 7 in e-court, we will see the
22 facsimile cover sheet which concerns the transmission of the exhibit
23 list, and you can see here it's dated 14 August 2008, and it comprises
24 some four pages.
25 If we go to the next page, page 8, we'll see the list of
1 exhibits. On this page, we see photos and so on.
2 We'll see on the last -- I'm sorry, not the last page, but
3 ERN ending 24, page 10, if we focus on item 4, we'll see a VHS tape, and
4 it says "August 1994."
5 Can you tell us about that, Mr. Janc?
6 A. Yes, I can. This is actually the tape, a segment of which we
7 will be just watching in a few minutes, and on this tape, actually, this
8 segment was also part of -- and it's -- on the actual tape, it's a label,
9 "August 1994." And from the stamp on the video itself, you can see that
10 it is dated 15 of August, 1994.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we can go back to that. We
12 can go back to 65 ter 5507, and we'll just play it briefly, as this is
13 not subtitled, and then we'll go to the subtitled version.
14 Q. Here we can see what you indicated, the date of August 15, 1994.
15 And, once again, is this the footage that was received by the OTP
16 pursuant to this sending-abroad order?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Let's play it through just a few
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. VANDERPUYE:
22 Q. Here we can see we go from this scene immediately to what appears
23 to be the inside of the car. Can you tell us about that?
24 A. Yes. First we have seen the scene from outside, from the area,
25 and you could hear the voice of Milan Lesic and General Ratko Mladic.
1 And now they are both inside the car, driving along the road and
3 Q. All right. What I'd like to do is play you the subtitled portion
4 of this footage, and that's going to come from P2228, which I understand
5 was marked for identification during the course of General Milovanovic's
6 testimony for the reasons that I think were indicated concerning its
7 status as protected, so to speak. And we'll start this right at the
8 beginning of the footage and play it through all the way. It's about
9 10 minutes long.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 10:46.9.
12 Q. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions, Mr. Janc. Were you
13 able to identify this route that we see that the car is taking on this --
14 in this footage?
15 A. Yes, we were able to identify this route, yes.
16 Q. I'd like to show you, very briefly --
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: First I'd like to tender this, if I may,
18 Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's not enough to say, We were able to
20 identify this route. Could you explain that, please? Which route is it?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think we will be -- I will mark the route on
22 the map. And this route was identified by my colleague,
23 Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk, when he was on a mission, one of his
24 missions down in the area. So it is a route going down from -- close to
25 Crna Rijeka down to Potplanje and towards the Zepa enclave, and I will
1 mark the exact route on the map.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Have you been there?
3 THE WITNESS: I was on part of this route, yes. I was there
4 once, but not in the entire route.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: I have a question for you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 Your witness on the stand now says:
9 "My colleague, Investigator Tomasz ... one of his missions down
10 in the area."
11 Indicating that really this is something in the knowledge of the
12 investigator that he refers to. Why wasn't this produced through that
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a good question, and I can offer the
15 following explanation:
16 We decided that it would be most appropriate, since Mr. Janc is
17 dealing with this video footage, and quite a large amount of the OTP's
18 video footage, that it would be more efficient to have Mr. Janc discuss
19 that footage. He discussed previous footage received from the -- are we
20 in open session now? We're --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We're still in private session.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
23 He received this material and has testified about footage that
24 was provided from the same source that we see in this particular
25 instance, pursuant to his prior testimony about video footage that
1 comprised part of the trial video and other materials before the
2 Trial Chamber, and so we thought that it would be a more efficient way to
3 present the evidence to have Mr. Janc talk about all of those videos.
4 The fact that it's within the knowledge of Mr. Blaszczyk as well I don't
5 think is necessarily anything that detracts from the reliability of the
6 information that Mr. Janc brings to the Trial Chamber, except for the
7 fact that it's second-hand, it's not first-hand.
8 The rules of evidence in this Tribunal provide for the admission
9 or admissibility of second-hand information. There's simply no rule
10 against the admission of hearsay evidence, and that comes in, in a
11 variety of forms. It comes in a variety of forms in terms of documents,
12 video footage, even testimonial evidence. So I don't know, necessarily,
13 that it's fundamentally a lesser standard of evidence than any other
14 evidence that comes before the Trial Chamber. So I think -- I think,
15 under Rule 89 -- I think it's 89(C), it would be appropriate for the
16 Trial Chamber to receive it, even though Investigator Janc has direct
17 knowledge of having driven the route.
18 But, remember, even though Investigator Janc directly drove the
19 route, Investigator Janc didn't shoot the video, and he's relying on what
20 he sees in the video, or whoever shot the video, or however the video was
21 shot, to bring to you that information in any event. So no matter how
22 you toss it up, unless it's the person that's riding in the car, i.e.,
23 General Mladic or Milan Lesic, it is second-hand information in any
24 event. So I don't think that the fact that it's Investigator Janc or
25 it's Investigator Blaszczyk really makes much of a difference in terms of
1 the provenance or the reliability of the information for the
2 Trial Chamber.
3 In addition to that, the Trial Chamber has the video itself, and
4 so I think the Trial Chamber is in a position to compare what's in the
5 video to what Mr. Janc represents is the route or what Mr. Blaszczyk
6 would have represented was the route.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: To the extent that you want to tell the Chamber,
8 through this witness, the route of -- the route that was taken, you don't
9 think a person who has been on that route is a better witness for you
10 than the one who hasn't been?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do think that person is a better witness for
12 me, but I don't think that it's a necessary witness for me. And I think
13 there's a difference between that. I don't --
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: And so that, to me, is a question of the weight
16 to be attributed to the evidence, but the evidence in this case is the
17 video. The principal evidence that we offer to the Trial Chamber is the
18 video itself. So I think that Mr. Janc's testimony concerning the route
19 is helpful to the Trial Chamber to assess the video, although I don't
20 think it's necessary to the Trial Chamber to assess the video, because
21 the video is what it is. It speaks for itself.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. You may continue.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you are tendering the document
25 P2228 which was previously marked for identification. I take it this
1 document contains four different videos.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: It does, indeed.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have seen two of them, one today and one with
4 the witness Milovanovic. If I'm not mistaken, that was the New Year's
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think that's right, yes, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why is it one document that makes it quite
8 difficult to deal with it?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's a very good question.
10 I think, in the end, it's going to form part of a compilation
11 video, and that's the reason why it's on one document for the moment.
12 You're right, it does complicate things somewhat. There is one other
13 segment of the video that I wanted to play to Mr. Janc, but it still
14 leaves another segment of the video without his testimony, and so I
15 understand the Court's concern.
16 I don't know that there's a way to admit it in parts or pieces of
17 it, which perhaps might be the most appropriate way to do it. But, in
18 any event, I think that whatever hasn't been shown to the Trial Chamber
19 will be shown to the Trial Chamber either now or at some other point, and
20 so maybe it's appropriate to leave it marked for identification until
21 that happens. But, in any event, I do have one other segment on this
22 video, on this document, that I would like to show the Trial Chamber.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we have seen now that part which
24 is under seal, according to the conditions set up by the Canadian
25 authorities, and, therefore, we are still in private session.
1 I think it is a good proposal to postpone a decision about the
2 final admission of the evidence after we have seen the other portions.
3 Are they also under seal?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: They are not, Mr. President, and we can go into
5 open session. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into a public session.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: If it would be helpful to the Trial Chamber --
8 THE REGISTRAR: Please hold on.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 If it would be helpful to the Trial Chamber, I would like to have
17 Mr. Janc detail the route that we've just seen on the video footage, but
18 only if it's helpful. If it's not, otherwise, then there's certainly no
19 problem in moving on to the next segment.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is your witness. You should decide.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Then I would like to show it to him, please.
22 And it's - just a moment - P104, and I think it might be helpful to go to
23 Map 10. Probably -- Mr. Janc will probably need the assistance of the
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not with a hard copy, but with the screen.
1 Go ahead, please.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we'll need to go to page 12 in e-court.
3 I think we probably don't need the translation, if there is one,
4 and we can just put it on one screen. All right.
5 Q. Is this a helpful map for you, Mr. Janc? And let us know if we
6 should blow it up or anything like that.
7 A. Yes, we should blow it up, but only the upper part of it, around
8 VRS HQ and down to Godjenje IKM, that part.
9 We'll have to go a little bit to the left. Yes. It's okay. But
10 I would need it, I think, on this screen. On this screen it's not ready
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For marking the --
13 THE WITNESS: For marking.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.
15 We have to wait a little moment because it has to be done technically, in
16 a proper way.
17 Mr. Janc, is this sufficient for the purpose of marking it?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it is, yes.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to mark the route that we've just seen in
22 the video footage?
23 A. Yes, and I will start from the beginning, where we stopped and we
24 have seen the area underneath. So I marked it with X, for example.
25 I don't know if you can see it. It's inside the "Krivace IKM"
1 circle, and this is on the point where they stopped.
2 And then I will now go towards direction they were driving, so
3 from this X towards the west. So this is the road, and they stopped
4 here, in front of that building. You can see where they stopped. This
5 is the 65th Protection Regiment Base. They stopped there.
6 And from that point, they go down. And from this point down, I'm
7 not sure which route exactly they go. But from the video you can see
8 that General Mladic is referring to Maceha Hill, which is down here. I
9 will circle it and put M inside it. And that's why I think they are
10 travelling down here. And I will mark it with a dotted line because I'm
11 not 100 per cent sure. This direction down.
12 Q. And is that what you learned from Mr. Blaszczyk?
13 A. Yes, correct. He provided me with the GPS reading for the point
14 which I marked with X, and then he told me about the route where they
15 were driving down towards Maceha.
16 Q. Okay. And this is what you've marked now?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
19 Mr. President, I would tender this marked map.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The map with the markings will be received as an
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 12th page of the Exhibit P104, the
23 map marked by the witness in court, shall be assigned Exhibit P2241.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: And what I'd like to do --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.
3 This section of the road that the witness marked is not an
4 asphalt road, and we did not see that the car rode along an un-asphalted
5 road. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may deal with that in your cross-examination,
7 Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is important in terms
9 of admission.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may deal with that in your cross-examination.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: May I proceed, Mr. President?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Please go ahead.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
14 Q. During the video that we saw, we can see General Mladic
15 referring -- or saying, rather, something to the effect - and we have the
16 subtitles - but something to the effect that, In the Podrinje, we
17 thrashed the Turks.
18 Now, the Podrinje, can you tell us what that is?
19 A. Yes. This is the area next to the Drina River, so where the Zepa
20 and Srebrenica enclaves are at the time.
21 Q. He says, at roughly 2 minutes, 35 or so, into the video, that if
22 it weren't for the Americans, or something to that effect, that the Turks
23 would have disappeared long ago. And in the context of this video, does
24 that refer to the Podrinje region that you've described?
25 A. Yes, correct.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
3 apologise, but I have an objection again.
4 The witness is talking about the authenticity of the road and the
5 footage but not about the things that Mr. Vanderpuye is asking him about.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Maybe I can clarify it, I think.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Is the route that you indicated on the map in -- that we can see
13 the car navigating down in the video -- in the area of the Podrinje?
14 A. Yes, I believe it is.
15 Q. Okay. And in the context of the video, where General Mladic says
16 that if it weren't for the Americans, that the Turks would have
17 disappeared a long time ago, first, that occurs on the route that you've
18 described, doesn't it?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. And based on that, is that why you are saying that it relates
21 to -- or are you saying that his statement that the Turks would have
22 disappeared from these parts, or something to that effect, relates to the
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. You also indicated in the photograph -- I'm sorry, the map that
1 you marked that they stopped, you said, at the 65th Protection Regiment.
2 And in the video footage we can see that they do stop at around
3 4 minutes, 35 seconds, and General Mladic describes it, I think, as a
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that what you're referring to?
7 A. Yes, correct. This is one of the battalions of the
8 65th Protection Regiment Base -- Protection Regiment.
9 Q. And how are you able to make that determination?
10 A. This is coming out of the investigation itself, and we obtained
11 this information from the witnesses we interviewed, that that was their
12 base or one of their battalions.
13 Q. And could you identify for the Trial Chamber, based on the
14 investigation, which battalion it would be, first, and, second, what the
15 source is of that information? If it's confidential, let us know,
16 obviously. But if you're able to do that, that would be helpful.
17 A. I might not be right regarding which battalion it is, but I think
18 it is the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Motorised Battalion. And these information
19 are coming from the commander of this regiment, Mr. Savcic, Milomir, who
20 will be coming here and testify; also his deputy, Malinic, Zoran. Those
21 are the two main sources, I think.
22 Q. All right. I'd like to show you one other bit of footage from
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, one question.
25 You have used 65 ter 6580, under seal. Are you tendering it or
1 did you already tender it? I don't remember.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I haven't tendered it. I didn't intend to
3 tender it, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I just was informed that there
7 might be a problem with two documents, 65 ter 5507, under seal, and one
8 part of 65 ter 7388, under seal, two videos. And I would like to know if
9 they are identical, or different, or different editions of the same; that
10 would clarify the situation. If you need to go into private session for
11 a clarification, we can do that.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't think so. I don't think I need to go
13 into private session.
14 5507 is an un-subtitled version and a complete -- the complete
15 footage which underlies 65 ter 7388. So 7388 is the only subtitled part
16 of that video footage, the totality of which is 5507.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Registrar made a proposal, how to deal with
19 the documents, and I need some further clarification.
20 65 ter 5507 is the same video-clip, under seal, as that part of
21 65 ter 7388, under seal, the part we have seen today. The first one,
22 5507, contains also a translation and a transcript. That means a
23 transcript and the respective translation of the transcript, but perhaps
24 not subtitles. We can't check that at the moment.
25 Our proposal would be to take that video under seal from 7388 and
1 put it on the same number 65 ter 5507 so that we can identify that part.
2 And the other parts of 7388 then could be dealt with as public documents.
3 I hope I could express myself understandably.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I see. That seems to make a lot of sense. If I
5 understand you correctly, it makes perfect sense.
6 I just want to point out, though, that 5507, as it is now,
7 contains much more footage than what's on 7388, but it seems to work out
8 just fine anyway if we simply supplant what's on 5507 with the clip here.
9 The only reason why I played 5507 to begin with was to place some context
10 to the clip which is 7388. It's less material. But if that works out
11 fine, then I think it's a great idea.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first step, then, should be to withdraw the
13 clip we have seen, the confidential one, from 7388 and to combine it with
14 5507. Then we will decide about admission of this document.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. That is my
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document will be received under seal. That
18 means 65 ter 5507, including the confidential part of 7388.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5507 shall be
20 assigned Exhibit P2242, admitted under seal. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye --
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- you are exceeding the time of two hours.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm aware of that. I have one other clip --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- that I'd like to play. It's from 65 ter 7388.
3 We can do this in open session. We'll need to play it from about 10:49.
4 It's four minutes long.
5 THE WITNESS: Can I just make one correction when we still have
6 this map on the screen, just a quick one?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, please.
8 THE WITNESS: Because before, I wasn't sure regarding this route,
9 and now I think, because the letters are really slow, I now would like to
10 mark it again, just the second part of the route from the
11 65th Protection Regiment Base down.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should have on the screen an unmarked version,
13 and you should mark it again.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, I have this unmarked version in front
15 of me, and I will try to mark it.
16 Actually, the Maceha Hill - I'll mark it again - is here, and I
17 will put "M1." So they are going from 65th Protection down here,
18 actually, down this road here.
19 And then when Mladic is saying they are 300 metres away from the
20 enemy line, that corresponds to his statement, because they are really,
21 really close to the enemy line which is, in this case, this blue line.
22 And Maceha Hill is here [indicates], so this should be the
23 correct route from the 65th Protection down towards Godjenje.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE:
25 Q. All right. If you could, just put an arrow so we can see the
1 direction that they would be travelling on the video-clip.
2 A. Yes. First part of the road is here, arrow, they're coming,
3 arrow 1. And then the second part, they're coming down here, arrow
4 number 2.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I take it you replaced the dotted line you
6 put on the first marked map by this line with the number 2.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
9 I'd like to tender this as well, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the 12th page of Exhibit P104,
12 marked by the witness for the second time in court today, shall be
13 assigned Exhibit P2243. Thank you.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We'll need to go back to
15 65 ter 7388, and we'll play it from, yeah, just about here, 10.5 -- 10:50
16 through 14:15.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: We've stopped at 14:14.2.
19 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us about the provenance of this video?
20 A. We received this video -- I mean, the OTP received it in
21 April of 2002 from an individual, a citizen of Serbia. His name is
22 Petrusic, Jugoslav.
23 Q. What are you relying on for that information?
24 A. This information I obtained from the records in our database, in
25 the OTP database, regarding the source of this video.
1 Q. These records relate to -- or are they kept regularly?
2 A. Yes. They are in electronic format. You can access it in an
3 electronic way.
4 Q. And is there any requirement that you're aware of to make these
5 records upon the receipt of evidence or other documents from various
7 A. Yes. Every time the investigator sees or obtains any evidence,
8 it should be placed in Evidence Unit vault, accompanying with this kind
9 of information, electronic information data.
10 Q. And is this procedure -- is this a procedure that is routinely
11 followed and required to be followed by investigators in the course or
12 the context of handling evidence that's received from various sources?
13 A. Yes, it is, correct.
14 Q. Did you -- or can you recall the name of the investigator that
15 received this material that's indicated in this electronic record that
16 you consulted?
17 A. I believe it's Investigator Yves Roy. That's the one I believe,
18 but I'm not 100 per cent sure right now.
19 Q. Okay. But you, I take it, are able to confirm that one way or
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, can you state, for the record, in
24 relation to the list of documents, what did we see between 10:5 and
25 10:50 -- 10:50 through 14:10?
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. You're
2 right, I overlooked that.
3 Q. You're understood Mr. President's question. Could you please
4 answer it, Mr. Janc?
5 A. Yes. It's actually the footage of the first anniversary of the
6 existence of the 10th Sabotage Detachment, which was officially formed on
7 12th of October, 1994. And this is what was going on one year later, so
8 in October 1995. So the place of this celebration is Dragasevac, near
9 Vlasenica, and this is based on the information provided to us and the
10 testimony of Drazen Erdemovic.
11 Q. Did you see that -- rather, is Drazen Erdemovic actually featured
12 in this video footage?
13 A. Yes, he is featured, and he was also named in this footage.
14 Q. And could you just tell the Trial Chamber what is the
15 relationship of the 10th Sabotage Detachment to the Main Staff? What is
16 the relationship of that detachment to the location, Dragasevac, as
17 you've indicated?
18 A. One of their platoons was situated in Dragasevac. The other one
19 was in Bijeljina.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Vanderpuye is
23 once again trying to use this witness not only for identification, but
24 also to confirm contents and information that he already has from other
25 sources. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, your statement.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 I'm only trying to assist the Court to understand the video
4 footage. I should point out something, though, which I think will be
5 helpful, which is that you have, in the trial record, the testimony of
6 Drazen Erdemovic, which I think you'll remember, and if not, you
7 certainly can consult with respect to the events that are depicted in
8 this video-tape. So I don't think that there's anything improper or
9 untoward about asking Mr. Janc to explain what the relationship is
10 between the Sabotage Detachment and the location where this footage
11 purports to have been shot.
12 And I think it's responsive to the question of authenticity.
13 Clearly, if it was shot in Warsaw, that might indicate that it was not an
14 authentic film. So it seems to me that it's appropriate and corresponds
15 to the scope of Mr. Janc's testimony here today.
16 I'm not sure if this is -- this hasn't been admitted, and so I
17 would tender it for that purpose. I should point out, though, that there
18 is footage that is not, as I understand it, subtitled that is already
19 admitted in evidence in this case. That is the same footage, once again.
20 So it's -- P234 and P235, under seal, correspond to this same footage.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if my recollection is
24 correct, I think that this video footage, if not in its entirety, then at
25 least in part, it was shown during the testimony of
1 Witness Drazen Erdemovic, so all the questions being put to the witness
2 by the Prosecutor have already been looked into.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I remember very well that we have seen at least
4 part of that footage. I would like to read out the witness summary
5 provided by the OTP to the Defence and to the Chamber in this respect. I
7 "In addition to describing how the OTP obtained the video
8 footage, Mr. Janc will explain the events which are captured in the
9 videos and identify some of the relevant individuals recorded therein."
10 In relation to this, what is your objection, if you take this
11 into account?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have any
13 objections. Mr. Vanderpuye can proceed as he wishes, because all the
14 objections are just pro forma, they're not being taken into account.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, they are taken into account. We are
17 discussing the topic. I invited you to explain it further. If you don't
18 want to do that, that's fine.
19 We must have our second break now, and we will resume 20 minutes
20 past 6.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 6.26 p.m.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you indicated that you need two
24 hours. You have, up to now, used two hours and thirty-three minutes.
25 You should come to an end as soon as possible.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 I believe I am at the end. I just wanted to make sure that I
3 tendered the last video-clip that was shown from P2228, and I understand
4 the Trial Chamber has some information with respect to the status of that
6 I also wanted to let the Trial Chamber know that while I was
7 conducting the examination, I had mentioned, in private session, that the
8 Office of the Prosecutor had received certain information that warranted
9 proceeding in private session and also which was the basis for submitting
10 these exhibits under seal, and I received information while I was in
11 court, through e-mail, that those restrictions are not necessary. So
12 those documents don't need to be under seal. That's 5507 and --
13 65 ter 5507 and P2228 don't need to be under seal. And, further, to the
14 extent that there's future use of those documents, there's no concern for
15 displaying them publicly in e-court or discussing them publicly
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it the Chamber can lift the
18 confidentiality of these two videos, these two documents, and of the
19 transcript in private session of today.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, that's correct.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have had two private sessions today, and that
24 relates to both private sessions; is that correct?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, the first one related to a
1 protected witness, so I think not with respect to that. But the second
2 one, yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are correct.
4 The Chamber will lift the confidentiality of the two videos, and
5 the long part we dealt with these videos in private session may be public
7 To clarify, the status of the two documents, 65 ter 5507 and
8 P2228, I think now there is no need to combine the two confidential parts
9 of that. They should remain as they are, as 65 ter 5507 and 65 ter 7388,
10 which is marked for identification as P2228; is that correct?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is correct, Mr. President. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay.
13 The document 65 ter 5507 is now in evidence as P2242, and the
14 other one is marked for identification, as we indicated earlier today,
15 pending receiving the transcript and the translation.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 With that, I've concluded my direct examination of Mr. Janc on
18 this issue.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Gajic.
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a short
23 The Defence, before Mr. Tolimir commences his cross-examination,
24 we just want to say that we'll be discussing two topics. The first one
25 will be the videos that have just now been admitted into evidence. And
1 tomorrow, after we finish our cross-examination on that issue, we will
2 continue the cross-examination that was started about a year ago, and it
3 is in relation with a report by Mr. Janc on the DNA analysis. We will
4 inform the Chamber, of course, when we intend to move to the next -- to
5 the second topic.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there an agreement among the parties about
7 this kind of procedure?
8 Mr. Gajic.
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I do believe so, Mr. President. If
10 you have had an opportunity to see the schedule for the week, you must
11 have seen that Mr. Janc would be testifying about, first of all, topics
12 that he had testified before, in the period of about more than a year
13 ago. We will continue the cross-examination in relation to that. And
14 the other part was something that was normally scheduled; namely, the
15 topics that were discussed today.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have received the schedule for the witnesses
17 for this week, and there is mentioning for tomorrow re. exhumations and
18 cross-examination only. You are absolutely right. Thank you very much
19 for that. Thank you.
20 Mr. Tolimir, you may now commence your cross-examination.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 May God's peace reign in this house, and may God's will, not
23 mine, be done in these proceedings.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
25 Q. [Interpretation] I want to extend my greetings to Mr. Janc and
1 wish him a welcome, and I would also like to ask him to answer several
2 questions of mine.
3 First of all, you were shown a video-recording dated
4 19th of July. On page 3, line 3, that's when it was admitted. And on
5 page 518 [as interpreted], there was discussion about Mr. Wood, who told
6 you all the information about VRS members who were present at the
7 meeting -- who had been present at the meeting. That was on page 5,
8 line 18.
9 And this is my question: Have you ever seen Major Indjic
10 personally? In other words, were you ever together with him, or is it
11 that all that you know about him was derived from video materials and
13 A. No, I have never seen him. I have never met him. All the
14 information about him is, indeed, from the investigation, from this kind
15 of material we have been watching today, which are the videos, different
16 statements, and other documents on him.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Was General Tolimir present in the footage
18 and was it clear that he was present at the meeting in Jela? Can he be
19 seen in the footage about the meeting in Jela? Thank you.
20 A. We can see you, General Tolimir, before the meeting, and we
21 stopped the footage at the point where the camera caught you. And this
22 is before the actual meeting or the signing of the agreement took place,
23 so when we can see General -- I mean Mr. Wood still printing out the
24 agreement. So at that point in time we can see you. But later on,
25 during the meeting, the signing of the agreement itself, no, we cannot
1 see yourself on the footage.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Could you please tell us whether
3 Mr. Tolimir can be clearly seen during the meeting or can we just see him
4 somewhere in this Restaurant Jela because it's possible that this film
5 was made at a different point in time? Have you seen any footage of
6 Tolimir in Restaurant Jela, apart from what we've seen?
7 A. This whole footage is going on inside Jela Restaurant. And when
8 we can see you on this footage, this is inside Jela Restaurant. It's
9 just before the actual meeting started with General Smith -- between
10 General Smith and General Mladic. So where we can see the signing of
11 agreement, we can't see you, but I can say that from Mladic's comments
12 and Mladic's speeches and talkings [sic] during this conversation to
13 General Smith, he's referring to you as well.
14 Q. Thank you. It is not important whether Tolimir was or was not
15 present there for the purpose of my question, but I would just like to
16 ask you whether one can see General Tolimir sitting together with
17 Generals Mladic and Smith at the time when the agreement was signed.
18 And, secondly, would it be logical for him to be there if he took part in
19 the agreement preparations? Thank you.
20 A. From this footage, we can't see yourself being -- sitting there,
21 but it doesn't mean that you were not there. Actually, it's just perhaps
22 the camera didn't catch you. But from the records, which is one of those
23 being the actual report of Lieutenant-Colonel Baxter, it's obvious that
24 you participated in this meeting.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Are you basing your testimony on written
1 information, predominantly, and transcripts of General Mladic's words, or
2 was the main source of recognition the video footage?
3 A. All of them are important, and I have taken into consideration
4 all of them. So if you put together all this information, there is no
5 doubt that you were there.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 12, line 4 and onwards, you were
7 shown video footage of Restaurant Jela of 20th of July when you
8 recognised General Milovanovic, and you will remember that. And my
9 question to you is: Was General Tolimir in front of the Jela Restaurant
10 on the 20th of July, 1995, or inside of it, and was he somewhere on the
11 footage? Thank you.
12 A. No, you are not on the footage. And according to information, we
13 have no information that you were -- that you participated in this -- on
14 this occasion. So you were not there.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Please tell us this now: Photographs and
16 video footage, are they the basis of your testimony in relation to what
17 transpired within Restaurant Jela, bearing in mind that you never got to
18 see the Restaurant Jela because it was destroyed before you first visited
19 the location where the restaurant had been? Thank you.
20 A. Yes, this is -- these footages are, indeed, very important
21 because Jela Restaurant doesn't exist anymore, nowadays, so we cannot
22 actually go there and check certain things. But not only the video
23 itself, I would say, is the main source. In addition to that, we have
24 several statements which the OTP obtained during the years which
25 corroborate these facts that this was, indeed, happening there.
1 Q. Thank you very much. As an investigator, are you testifying on
2 the basis of what you've read and what you've seen in video footage or do
3 you use something else as the basis of your testimony?
4 A. I would say it's a combination of everything, what I've seen on
5 the footage itself, what was discussed there, and as well what I was able
6 to read from the documents, statements, and different sources. So it's a
7 combination of everything.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 25 of the transcript, lines 10 and
9 onward, a document P740 was introduced. It was shown to you as well.
10 It's video footage of General Tolimir in civilian clothes. On page 27,
11 Mr. Vanderpuye asked you whether that was a segment from a documentary
12 called "Story about Avdo Palic," recorded for the television. On
13 page 24, you confirmed that, and you added that it wasn't a continuous
14 video footage, that it was edited material. Do you remember having said
15 that? Thank you.
16 A. Yes, I remember being asked about this topic, yes, if this is
17 continuation of the video or is it somehow edited.
18 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, have you seen the film which was used
19 to edit in the materials containing General Tolimir into the documentary
20 about Avdo Palic? Thank you.
21 A. No. The original video, which is actually shown on a television
22 and filmed by a camera for this documentary, we never obtained.
23 And let me clarify regarding editing issue. It's not that the
24 OTP edited anything. What we have been watching today is just what is on
25 the documentary itself. Everything what you can see on documentary have
1 been presented here in this courtroom today. In addition to that, we
2 also presented another video from another source, which we obtained from
3 the BiH authorities, which actually corroborates the first one.
4 So the OTP never edited anything into these videos. What we
5 presented is actually what we obtained and was ever on these videos, I
6 would say.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. And that video footage that you received
8 from Bosnia and Herzegovina, is that continuous material or is it again
9 edited material of different situations? Thank you.
10 A. It's the same as previous ones so -- because it's coming from the
11 same source. And when I'm referring to the editing, it might be, most
12 probably, that the camera was filming not all the way along but at one
13 point it stopped and the cameraman started filming again. That's one
14 possible explanation. The other one would also be that when this film
15 was -- or this footage was taken by a camera, that it was going all
16 along, and when it was broadcasted on a TV, was edited by the television
17 itself, and that's what we were able to obtain, only what was broadcasted
18 on a television at that time.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 28, line 12, you spoke about this
20 documentary on Avdo Palic, and you told us that, We met a director who
21 referred us to the BH authorities, and we received from them a
22 longer segment of the events, including a segment that encompasses events
23 that took place on the 24th of July.
24 And this is my question to you: Do you, first of all, remember
25 saying this during the direct examination? Thank you.
1 A. Yes, I do remember. I would just like to clarify, I never met
2 the director. Our team was in contact with the director of this
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. --
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. On page 28, you told us that it was sent to
8 the Prosecutor, this longer footage of events, including footage of
9 events recorded on the 24th of July where Tolimir can be seen wearing
10 civilian clothes; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct, that what we received in March this year
12 from the BiH authorities. And the segment which was on that video which
13 we received we have also seen today in this courtroom. So that's all
14 what they provided to us, the whole segment.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you talk to other sources and ask them whether
16 Tolimir was ever at the Boksanica Hill wearing civilian clothes, although
17 his senior officer was next to him in a uniform? Did you ask them that?
18 A. Actually, I never asked anyone regarding this particular issue,
19 and I'm sure that nobody from our team so far never asked anyone about
20 this issue.
21 Q. Thank you very much. In the footage where Tolimir is wearing
22 civilian clothes on Boksanica, did you notice, did you observe, there
23 that General Mladic is saying goodbye to everyone there, Kusic and all
24 the others, but not the person wearing civilian clothes? Did you notice
1 A. I think he also greets Hamdija Torlak, who is also in civilian
2 clothes there.
3 Q. Thank you. But did he say goodbye, did he greet,
4 General Tolimir, as you say, who's wearing civilian clothes in the
6 A. No, this cannot be seen from this video.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like for this footage to be
9 shown, starting with 20:29. This is document P740. This is OTP
11 [Defence counsel confers]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 If we cannot play that today, we'll do it tomorrow, because then
14 you will see images that we are discussing. My apologies to the
15 Trial Chamber and the Court.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. This is my following question: The segment -- the edited segment
18 of the Radio and TV of Bosnia and Herzegovina can be seen in both P740
19 and also in document --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't catch the other
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the number
23 of the second document.
24 Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, P2240.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: No question. We've just located the section of
6 the video, if General Tolimir wants to see it or to show it to the
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's very helpful. Thank you.
9 Is it possible to play it?
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are grateful for your assistance, due to the
12 absence of the team member of Mr. Tolimir who is normally providing the
13 video. Thank you for that.
14 Mr. Tolimir.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to avoid watching
17 the whole sequence, I would like to ask you to play only the last eight
18 or nine seconds, where people are saying goodbye to each other. 20:29,
19 and then we continue to 20:30. Thank you.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Did you observe -- did you see, now, General Mladic saying
24 goodbye to Mr. Tolimir, and can you tell us whether he greeted or said
25 goodbye to all the other participants in the meeting?
1 A. Yes, I have to admit I paid attention to this particular issue
2 for my first time now, and I see from this video that he wanted to greet
3 you but you didn't, for some reason, want to greet him. So -- at least
4 it's my understanding, so -- but he greets all the others, yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 I gather, from the direction of the cross-examination, that
8 General Tolimir disputes that this individual in the blue suit is him on
9 the video. If that's his position, I would ask that he put his case to
10 the witness to that effect, as is required under the Rules. And if it's
11 not his position, then I don't know the reason that we're belabouring the
13 In addition, if it's his position that the video is somehow
14 forged or manipulated, I would ask that he put that to the witness as
15 well, because I think that is important and also required under the
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, this is not my understanding. He
18 was asking to interpret the situation of saying goodbye and shaking
19 hands. That's my understanding. But you may comment on that if you
20 want, Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 I don't want to make any comments. Footage will talk for itself.
23 I'm asking the witness to give his comments, and whatever his answers
24 are, that will be relevant.
25 Let me repeat my question.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In the segment of the film P740 that we have just seen, and in
3 the segment of the film that bears number P2240, do they both contain
4 edited segments received from the Sarajevo Television -- or, rather,
5 received from the Bosnian government?
6 A. I have to trust you now regarding the numbers, P numbers, so
7 that's my confusion right now, but if P740 is the one we've just seen and
8 P2240 is the one -- the documentary of Avdo Palic, then my answer would
9 be, yes, they are -- they have both this edited part in it.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. Could you --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very sorry, but it's just past 7.00. We must
12 adjourn for the day and we should resume tomorrow, and then you may
13 continue the questions about the editing of certain videos. And I assume
14 that will take some more time, that you can't finish this topic today.
15 Thank you for your understanding.
16 We must adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow in the
17 afternoon, 2.15, in this courtroom.
18 We adjourn.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day
22 of May, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.