Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14734

 1                           Monday, 30 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     to those who are listening to our procedures.

 7             If there are no procedural matters, the witness should be brought

 8     in, please.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Janc.  Welcome back to the

11     courtroom.  I have again to remind you that the affirmation to tell the

12     truth still applies.

13                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye is conducting his re-direct.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

17     you, Your Honours; good afternoon everyone.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

19        Q.   And good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc.  I have just a few topics

20     that I'd like to cover with you in the re-direct examination, following

21     the testimony on Thursday last.

22             Let me start, if I could, but putting up P170.  This is your

23     report from 21 April 2010.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And we'll need to go to page 5 in the English; 6

25     in the B/C/S.

Page 14735

 1        Q.   And what we have on the screen, and hopefully we'll have the

 2     B/C/S up in a minute, is the third page of the tables you have concerning

 3     the total numbers, as you've indicated have identified individuals.  And

 4     here we can see the numbers in two columns which represent the figures

 5     that you obtained for March 2009 and February 2010, respectively.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you should wait until the B/C/S

 7     version is appearing on the screen.  It's not there.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thanks.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this the right page you were asking for?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It is Mr. President.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please go ahead.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:

13        Q.   In these two columns, we can see the total figures that you have

14     represented here.  On the left, would be the numbers that were -- that

15     you determined as of March 2009, and on the far right, the numbers you

16     determined as of February 2010.

17             Does that sound right?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   During the course of your cross-examination, you made reference

20     to identified individuals.  And I just want to make sure that we're clear

21     on what that means in the context of your report.

22             So if you would, could you tell us what you mean when you say

23     "identified individuals" in the course of your testimony and also as

24     indicated in this report?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful if the relevant part could be

Page 14736

 1     enlarged in both languages, especially in B/C/S.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, perhaps we go to second page of my report, and

 3     you -- we can find the term of identified individual in a footnote

 4     number 4.  So it would be second page of my report.  Actually, footnote

 5     number 3, where I say that:

 6             "Identified means an individual with a unique DNA profile whether

 7     with or without a name."

 8             So we can see the footnote number 3.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   Is that how you used the term during the course of your

11     testimony, during cross-examination and direct examination, for that

12     matter?

13        A.   Yes, correct.

14        Q.   You were asked at transcript page 14.683, I have here lines 21

15     through 14.684, line 10, by General Tolimir the following:

16             "Thank you, Mr. Janc, and all those 5.777," if we can go back to

17     pages 5 and 6, respectively, we'll see that number, "all those 5.777 that

18     were buried in graves, do you consider all of them as having been killed

19     outside of combat?  Thank you."

20             And your answer was:

21             "Yes.  I think that I already answered that most of them, if not

22     all of them, were, indeed, killed or executed.  Why I am saying 'most, if

23     not all,' I can explain because here Glogova is the big issue because we

24     know that most of them there, again, are the victims from the Kravica

25     execution.  Apart from that, we also know that some bodies were taken

Page 14737

 1     from other locations which were picked up along the road, the

 2     Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  I think a victim testified here about this

 3     procedure going on, and so those were also brought into the same grave

 4     and for those victims which were, according to this individual, around 15

 5     or 30 of them in total, we can't say if they were killed in combat or

 6     were executed.  That's why I'm saying most of them, if not all of them,

 7     are victims of the execution in these graves -- in these mass graves."

 8             Do you remember saying that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Does this number, 5.777, also include, therefore, individuals

11     that were part of the surface remain totals that you found that you

12     considered to be victims of executions?

13        A.   Are asking now specifically for these bodies which were picked up

14     along Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road or in general?

15        Q.   In general.

16        A.   No.  Those are only victims from the graves.  Those found on the

17     surface, we have another figure which is 703 which is the one figure

18     under this 5777 on my chart.

19        Q.   Now the number that you have here, 703, does that include the

20     number of the total surface remains or surface remains cases or the total

21     number of identified individuals that were recovered from the surface?

22        A.   This is the number for the total number of individuals

23     identified.

24        Q.   So it doesn't -- does it include what you might consider a unique

25     DNA profile as you've indicated before, for which a name has not been yet

Page 14738

 1     ascertained?

 2        A.   No.  For surface remains -- remains, I didn't include the unique

 3     profiles.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So this is just the people that have names that are

 5     recovered from the surface, matched through DNA analysis; is that fair?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   You indicated at transcript page 14.687, and this was during your

 8     discussion on cross-examination concerning surface remains recovered in

 9     the Pobudje area.  The question is as follows and then I'll give the

10     answer:

11             "Thank you.  After this, I'm not sure at all what is in your

12     report and what is in Mr. Ruez's report, can you please tell us in one

13     sentence whether these 600 bodies were found, and, if not, how many of

14     the bodies examined by the Finnish team were found?  Can you please tell

15     us the exact number.  Thank you."

16             And you answer is:

17             "Okay.  By the Finnish team, 30 bodies have been picked up,

18     collected from the ground in 1996.  In addition, that same year around

19     250 bodies have been collected by the BH, so we have 300 bodies, or body

20     parts or whatever, so 300, throughout the year.  So it means from 1996 up

21     until the end of 2009, additional surface remains were collected from

22     this area."

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down when reading.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr.  President, I'll do:

25              "... additional surface remains were collected from this area

Page 14739

 1     and that's why in my report, the total number is 558 so far identified,

 2     so it means the bodies which were collected from this area from 1996 up

 3     until the end of 2009.  When the Finnish team was there in 1996, only

 4     about 300 bodies were collected at that time, so in addition, we now have

 5     double number so because I already emphasised several times that this

 6     number is growing over the years, so I hope I made myself much clearer

 7     now."

 8             What I'd like to do is to go to - hopefully - the relevant page

 9     in your report.  Just a moment.

10             We're going to need to go to page 43 in the English, 60 in the

11     B/C/S, just to identify the section of the report we're talking about.

12        Q.   What we have here is Appendix B to your report and you can see

13     that it's the -- the caption is it discusses the surface remains.  You

14     have four categories and peers in the middle of the page, and we'll have

15     to go to the next page in the B/C/S to see them.  You've identified the

16     Pobudje area, Baljkovica area, Snagovo area, and other areas.

17             If we go to the next page in English and we might have to go to

18     the next page in the B/C/S, I'm not sure just now.  But we can see the

19     total number here of the 558.  We'll go to the next page in the B/C/S,

20     page 62 for the record.

21             And you've indicated here these 558 individuals.  Are these again

22     the total number of surface remain cases or the total number of

23     identified, meaning a name attached to the remains, surface remain cases?

24        A.   These are again the total number of the identified individuals.

25        Q.   And as of the writing of this report, how many surface-remain

Page 14740

 1     cases identified or -- that is, DNA-identified with a name or without as

 2     an individual DNA profiles had been obtained, how many cases were there

 3     in total?

 4        A.   So you can find the figure one page before we have on the screen

 5     now, and you will see that in total 961 surface remains cases were

 6     collected so far.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show you, since you refer to it your

 8     cross-examination, 65 ter 7413.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I think this might be an exhibit

10     that was not originally on the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  It is, though,

11     the Finnish team report that Mr. Janc expressly referred to in his

12     cross-examination.

13             I would move to add it at this time.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, any objections?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have not seen it,

16     so I don't know what I would object to, when I haven't seen it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was if you have objection to add

18     this document to this -- the 65 ter exhibit list of the Prosecution so

19     that he can use it in the courtroom.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             But, as for objections, I cannot raise objections against

22     something I have never seen in my life, thank you, as there is no

23     translation into Serbian or anything.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it there is no objection and at the moment

25     we are not dealing with receiving it into evidence.  It may be -- leave

Page 14741

 1     is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit list.

 2             Please continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             We do not have a B/C/S translation of this document as yet.  So

 5     I'll read a bit of it into the record so General Tolimir can familiarise

 6     himself with what it is or has at least a pretty basic understanding of

 7     it.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janc, first of all, do you recognise this report?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, it is entitled, "Report of the

11     Finnish Forensic Expert Team," and it is dated 8 July 1997.

12        Q.   Mr. Janc, is this the report that you refer to during the course

13     of your testimony on Thursday last, the 26th?

14        A.   Yes, correct.  This is the one.

15        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to the next page, please, in the English.

16     I'm sorry, we'll go to the following page after this.

17             You will see in the next-to-last paragraph, let me just read

18     the last -- the third to last paragraph so General Tolimir has the sense

19     of what this is about.

20             The third last to paragraph reads:

21             "The Finnish ministry of foreign affairs was several times in

22     contact with Justice Richard Goldstone and Mr. Graham Blewitt of the ICTY

23     to inform the Tribunal of the results of the Finnish experts and to

24     co-ordinate with the Tribunal's own efforts to exhume mortal remains from

25     mass graves in the vicinity.  It was not possible for the ICTY however to

Page 14742

 1     send observer to follow the field-work of the Finnish expert team in

 2     Kravica."

 3             First, the reference here to Kravica, does this refer to the

 4     Pobudje area that you were discussing during the cross-examination?

 5        A.   Yes, correct.  This is area behind Kravica warehouse.

 6        Q.   In the following paragraph, that is the next to last, it says

 7     that the 30 sets of human remains actually recovered in the field in 1996

 8     proved somewhat less than the expected -- projected, I'm sorry, 40 to 60

 9     bodies envisaged in the project plan of 30 May 1996.  It should be

10     mentioned however that a number of the corpses sighted in the field had

11     to be left where they were, because of the adverse attitude of the Pale

12     authorities?

13             Is this the 30 cases that you referred to during your

14     cross-examination on Thursday?

15        A.   Yes, correct.

16        Q.   Did you take this report into account and into consideration when

17     you arrived or determined the numbers -- the total number of surface

18     remains that you've indicated at?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would ask

21     Mr. Vanderpuye to clarify whether, on page 8 in line 24, 630, mortal

22     surface remains are mentioned or only 40.  Thank you.  Because is he

23     asking only about 40.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  I do see that in the transcript and that

Page 14743

 1     is a mistranscription.  What the text reads is 40 to 60 bodies envisaged

 2     in the project plan.  40 to 60.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

 4             Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

 5             Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   I don't think I have an answer yet to my question, which is

 8     whether or not you, Mr. Janc, took this report and these numbers into

 9     consideration in developing your own report and your own analysis as to

10     the number of surface remains recovered as of 2010?

11        A.   I haven't quoted this report into my report because what I was

12     taking into consideration and what numbers were used for my report were

13     simply the identified individuals which I could find on the ICMP

14     identification list.  In addition to that, I also used the tables and

15     documents and information provided to me by the BiH commission on missing

16     person in relation to these surface remains.  I have to admit that I read

17     this report for my first time just recently when this issue about what

18     Investigator Ruez testified here, and that's why I came across this

19     report and I also read this report and I found it that this report is not

20     contradicting my report at all.

21        Q.   Do you know if this report or the activities of the Finnish

22     experts is referred to the BH documents that you relied on in your own

23     report?

24        A.   No, actually, it's not.  And what they provided to me was just

25     the actual number on how many cases they have collected from the surface

Page 14744

 1     and how many individuals have been identified so far.  So just the

 2     numbers.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let me show you then P20 --

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President, I would like to tender this

 5     Finnish report.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see any objection.  It will be marked for

 7     identification, pending translation.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour 65 ter document 7413 shall be

 9     assigned Exhibit P2244, marked for identification, pending translation.

10     Thank you.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  I'd like to show the

12     witness --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can Mr. Vanderpuye please clarify whether this is a report from

16     the Pobudje area or from the Bare area, or the Finnish forensic experts

17     as they worked in both of these locations.  So can he please specify from

18     which one this is.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  What I read into the

21     record before referred to the activities of the Finnish expert team in

22     Kravica.  And this, I believe, the witness just testified, was the area

23     behind the Kravica -- or behind Kravica which he has indicated as

24     Pobudje.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

Page 14745

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I asked to show the witness P2076, 2076.

 2        Q.   And while that is loading, just let me ask this.  You were asked

 3     or do you remember being asked at page 14688 through 14689 questions

 4     concerning the estimate, as you mentioned, or, rather, the number

 5     provided by Jean-Rene Ruez during his testimony on 14th March 2000 of

 6     about 600 bodies recovered from this area?  Surface remains, I mean.

 7        A.   Yes, I do remember these questions.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Please.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Vanderpuye please say for

11     the record which area this concerns, because it is indefinite as it is.

12     Can we just specify geographically what were the surface remains that

13     Mr. Ruez was talking it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you said "from this area."

15             What are you referring to?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Well, I think maybe it is best if I just read it

17     from the transcript and hopefully that will make it clearer.

18             At page 14.687, rather -86 in the middle of the page,

19     General Tolimir asked the following question:

20             "My question is the number which Mr. Ruez mentions is smaller for

21     80 than the one you mentioned in your report as the number of 688, so the

22     smaller number --or the number is smaller for 80.  My question is this:

23     Did the persons whose mortal remains were found in the Bare village

24     identified by DNA analysis?

25             And then there's a long answer by Mr. Janc where he indicates

Page 14746

 1     that the Bare area is the area behind Kravica warehouse, and he says:

 2             "In that area, 558 individuals have been identified.  The number

 3     that you referred to as 688 is the total number of surface remains.  But

 4     as I discussed in my report, I emphasised that I categorise surface

 5     remains in three different areas," and he says, "and in Pobudje area

 6     there is only -- there is, so far, 558 individuals."

 7             This all goes into a whole long discussion about the matter.

 8             But does that help clarify the area to which these numbers relate

 9     to you, Mr. Janc?

10        A.   Yes, we are all the time talking about, as I referred to Pobudje

11     area, which is stretching from south -- from Bratunac up to

12     Konjevic Polje.  These are the hills where the most surface remains have

13     been collected, including the area behind Kravica warehouse and Bare

14     area.

15        Q.   And is your understanding that Mr. Ruez's testimony concerning

16     the 600 bodies recovered from the surface back in 2000, his testimony was

17     in 2000 -- is it your understanding that that number relates to that

18     specific area or is it broader than that?

19        A.   Yes, it is my understanding that he was referring to this area.

20     But for more than that, you would need to clarify directly with him, of

21     course.

22        Q.   All right.  I think I was about to show you --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could Mr. Vanderpuye

25     clarify where the village of Bare is that Mr. Ruez referred to?  Perhaps

Page 14747

 1     he should clarify that with the witness first and then we'll see whether

 2     it is in the general area of Brdo and Pobudje or on a specific location.

 3     Mr. Ruez specified the satellite co-ordinates.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think that the area

 6     that Mr. Janc is referring to, as concerns Mr. Ruez's testimony, is clear

 7     on the record.  I asked him specifically what is the area of -- or where

 8     is Bare village and he described it for the record, so I don't see any

 9     need for further clarification.

10             If General Tolimir wants to explore the satellite co-ordinates or

11     GPS co-ordinates with Mr. Janc, I think that is appropriate.  If he wants

12     to do that with leave of the Court, but I just don't see where that fits

13     in, in terms of clarifying the record for the purposes of re-direct

14     examination.

15             I should point out that the area, and concerning Mr. Ruez's

16     testimony, in particular, that was brought out just about a year ago when

17     Mr. Tolimir testified -- Tolimir began his cross-examination of Mr. Janc

18     and again on Thursday.  So if there's any ambiguity as to that area, I

19     think Mr. Janc's answer just a moment ago makes it quite clear what he is

20     talking about and what he understands Mr. Ruez's testimony to refer to.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you had the opportunity to put your

22     questions to the witness during the course of the cross-examination.  Now

23     Mr. Vanderpuye is conducting his re-examination.

24             Please continue.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 14748

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during my

 3     examination, I said that this amounted to a revision of Mr. Ruez's

 4     testimony.  It now turns out that the village is somewhere up in the

 5     mountains, but Ruez said it was precisely in the village of Bare.  I

 6     simply wanted him to clarify that with the witness, where the village of

 7     Bare is.  Otherwise, we'll just be referring to a general area.  If that

 8     is of no interest to the Court, then I don't have an interest in it

 9     either.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the end of the day, we all have to review the

11     different testimonies of all the witnesses of Mr. Ruez, of Mr. Janc.  Of

12     course, that is necessary.

13             Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Once again, I was just about to show the witness P2076.

16             All right.  What we have here, Mr. Janc, is a document that was

17     provided by the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it concerns

18     information regarding surface remains.  Do you recall referring to this

19     report -- or this document, I should say, during the course of your

20     testimony on Thursday?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Okay.  And if we can go to the next page, please.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it's page 3 in the B/C/S.  [Microphone

24     not activated]... English, perhaps.

25        Q.   Okay.  And what we have here is some figures concerning the

Page 14749

 1     collection of surface remains.  Could you just briefly, first of all,

 2     confirm if this is the -- or some of the information that you relied on

 3     in generating your own report concerning the recovery of surface remains?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   And could you explain to us what this shows.  We have here the

 6     year of exhumation, which I think goes without saying, and then we have

 7     instances of collection from the surface and then we have number of

 8     identified persons collected from the surface.  What is meant here by

 9     instances of collection from the surface?

10        A.   Yes, this is the table we were provided by the BiH commission on

11     missing persons, as you can see, at the end of 2007, when we requested if

12     the information on how many surface remains have been collected so far in

13     relation to Srebrenica events, and this is the table they provided.  And

14     we can see in the first column on the left-hand side we have the year

15     within this -- that many surface remains have been collected.  So -- and

16     then the second column, we have the number of cases, how many such body

17     parts have been collected from the ground.  And the last column represent

18     how many individuals have been so far, at that time, already identified

19     out of the surface remains from the middle column.  And we can see, for

20     example, in 1996, 213 surface remains case have been collected, and then

21     it goes on up until 2007.  In total, 877 cases collected.  In addition to

22     that, we can see the column Finnish team in 1996 collected 52 such cases.

23     And then we have the total number of how many surface remains case have

24     been so far collected before I referred to the number 961, which is also

25     included in my report, but that's because the number grew in 2008 and

Page 14750

 1     2009 to that many surface remains cases collected from the ground.

 2        Q.   Where we say here, identified persons, what does that mean?  Does

 3     that mean DNA-identified?  Does it mean they are identified forensically?

 4     By parents?  Things of that nature.  Do you know, are you able to say?

 5        A.   For most of them, I can say that they were identified through DNA

 6     identification by the ICMP.  However, we have 35 cases -- or not cases

 7     but 35 individuals which were identified before the ICMP commenced its

 8     work in 2001 and these were also included into table and also included

 9     into my report.

10        Q.   So you maybe have to help me a little bit with my math.  But as

11     of 2000 which is when Mr. Ruez testified, this would indicate that the

12     number of instances of the collection of surface remains adds up to about

13     627.  Of those, 444 would have been identified by then.  Does that seem,

14     first of all, approximately right to you; and, second of all, is that

15     consistent with Mr. Ruez's testimony as he gave it in 2000?

16        A.   It is right in a way, I would say.  Because -- why?  Because we

17     have to, if you count all these surface remains cases collected in each

18     year, here is the total number for first five years from 1996 to 2000

19     would be, indeed, 627.  The problem here is that we have 183 cases

20     collected in 2000, so it mean -- it means the whole year that many case

21     have been collected, and we would need to go, I think, further tables to

22     see how many cases have been collected up until the moment when Mr. Ruez

23     testified.

24             So it might be -- this number might be lower.  In any case, it is

25     around 600 cases and also I would like to emphasise here that this is

Page 14751

 1     related to all the areas not only Pobudje area, although I'm sure that

 2     most of the cases which we can see here out of those 600 have been

 3     collected in Pobudje area.  There might be then additional cases

 4     collected in Snagovo and Baljkovica area.

 5             As for the identifications on the right-hand side, I would -- I

 6     can't confirm that at the time when Mr. Ruez was testifying that we

 7     already have had that many identifications.  That many identifications

 8     were concluded at the time when this report was provided to us by the BiH

 9     authorities.  It means by the end of 2007.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, can you help me?  When you are

11     referring to the testimony of Mr. Janc [sic] in the year 2000 -- of

12     Mr. Ruez, sorry, in the year 2000, in which case was this testimony?

13             THE WITNESS:  I think this was the case against General Krstic.

14     And if I'm not mistaken, it was in April of 2000.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your microphone.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be useful for the Defence

20     if Mr. Vanderpuye could clarify whether Mr. Ruez testified to all the

21     victims found following the Krstic testimony or whether he testified only

22     about the Bare location where he said that there were 627 cases of

23     surface collection.  That would be important because Mr. Janc is now

24     addressing those surface collections in the -- through a number of years.

25     Therefore, we are unsure what this portion refers to specifically.

Page 14752

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

 3             Mr. President, I think General Tolimir has gotten his answer in

 4     more ways than one.  One, Mr. Janc just testified that these numbers

 5     include the total number of surface remains for more than just the area

 6     of Bare which we've discussed.  And he also testified before that that

 7     his understanding of what Mr. Ruez was testifying about back in 2000

 8     concerned the area of Bare which we've now defined through the testimony

 9     of Mr. Janc as included in the area of Pobudje.  So I don't -- I don't

10     know exactly what General Tolimir's objection is, if can you call it

11     that.  I do have a document to show Mr. Janc which I think may help

12     clarify things somewhat but certainly will explain where these surface

13     remains were recovered over the course of the years.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Janc, I wonder if you can clarify for me.  I'm getting

17     confused about surface remains and -- and victims of Srebrenica, as it

18     relates to combat activities or non-combat activities.

19             My question therefore is as follows:  Do any of the surface

20     remains you referred to in your testimony form part of the missing

21     persons of Srebrenica, as a result of combat or non-combat?  Can you make

22     that distinction for my understanding, please?  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             All the individuals which form part of my report as surface

25     remains are the victims of Srebrenica, which means that they are on a

Page 14753

 1     missing list of Srebrenica.

 2             So they went missing after the fall Srebrenica, all those 588

 3     individuals from Pobudje area and also the others.  So in total, 703,

 4     including Zepa victims.  So those were all on a missing list.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Can you just explain further your missing lists.

 6     Were they as a result of combat activities or other deaths?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             For most of them, we know they were found in mass graves, and

 9     this is majority of them, in total 5.777 in my report.  Then we have this

10     portion of 700 individuals which were found on the surface and which I

11     testified that for most of them, they were most probably killed in

12     combat.  Some of them we know also died from different other sources.

13     Different other -- in different other circumstances, sorry.  Like,

14     committed suicides, then they -- they were -- they died crossing the

15     minefields, for example, and, of course, we know also for some of them

16     that were executed, killed.  So those found on surface would include

17     both:  killed in combat and killed in other ways, illegally killed, and

18     also those committed suicide or died of different other sources,

19     different other -- from different other reasons, I mean.

20             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could Mr. Vanderpuye

23     clarify the following:  In line 16, actually, page 16, line 18, he said

24     that Mr. Ruez had mentioned 627 persons collected in the area of Bare.

25     And we see that Mr. Janc mentioned only 213 irrespective of the area.

Page 14754

 1     Ruez said that this was all done in Bare in 1996.  I'm interested in how

 2     this discrepancy can be explained by Mr. Vanderpuye and Mr. Janc.  If it

 3     is outside the scope of cross-examination, then they need not answer the

 4     question.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think maybe there's

 7     a translation issue or General Tolimir is not -- apprehended the issue.

 8             The questions that I put to Mr. Janc are derived from

 9     General Tolimir's questions concerning Mr. Ruez's testimony as to 600

10     individuals' surface remains that had been recovered.  As we explored on

11     Thursday, Mr. Ruez testified in 2000.  General Tolimir put a question to

12     Mr. Janc, suggesting that the number that Mr. Ruez referred to as 600 was

13     a number that he arrived at in 1996, to which I objected, because there

14     was nothing in the transcript, as put to Mr. Janc of Mr. Ruez's

15     testimony, suggesting that 600 surface remains were recovered in 1996.

16     In so far as his testimony occurred in 2000, and he said that 600 bodies

17     had been recovered, it seems reasonable to conclude that 600 bodies had

18     been recovered up until the time he had testified, in the area that

19     General Tolimir put to Mr. Janc as Bare in the form of his questions to

20     him.

21             So this line of questioning on re-direct examination expands upon

22     the question of the number of individuals that were identified or

23     indicated by Mr. Ruez as Mr. Janc has -- and how those numbers are

24     reflected in Mr. Janc's report.

25             So the first question is:  How many did Mr. Ruez indicate, which

Page 14755

 1     Mr. Janc has answered; where did he indicate those people were found,

 2     which Mr. Janc has answered; what documentation is there concerning those

 3     individuals, which has been shown to Mr. Janc; whether or not Mr. Janc is

 4     incorporated or reviewed those documents in the preparation of his own

 5     report concerning those issues, which he has testified to; whether or not

 6     the individuals that -- more than 600 individuals, the location where

 7     they were recovered can be determined, which I'm just about to put to

 8     him.  All of these issues I think are relatively clear and flow directly

 9     from the cross-examination of Mr. Janc on that number of individuals.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you satisfied by this very

11     precise and lengthy explanation?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am satisfied, Mr. President, when

13     I receive any explanation.  But I would like to see the reference where

14     Mr. Ruez apparently testified about all the victims that were identified

15     before he testified here in 2010 or at the time when he testified in the

16     Krstic case.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment we have the Witness Janc and not

18     the Witness Ruez in the courtroom.  Mr. Vanderpuye was referring to the

19     testimony of 2010 in the Krstic trial and not in this courtroom last

20     year.  I think he made it very clear.

21             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I was just about to

23     show Mr. Janc 65 ter 2769A.  This is the attachment to -- which is

24     referred to in P2076, which I've just shown the witness.  Oh.  I will

25     also need to add that, if I may, to the Prosecution's 65 ter list.  It

Page 14756

 1     was not part of the original list but as you can see it is directly

 2     related to the document that I showed Mr. Janc, which is already

 3     admitted.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see any objection.  And I think that

 5     would clarify even more to have this added to the 65 ter exhibit list.

 6             Leave is granted, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Please carry on.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I would

 8     note that we don't have yet an English translation of this document.  But

 9     I think Mr. Janc may be able to get us through it.

10        Q.   And what this shows, Mr. Janc, first of all, can you tell us, do

11     you recognise this?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And what does it show?

14        A.   This is a table which was provided along with the table we have

15     just seen before by the BiH Federal Commission on Missing Persons at the

16     end of 2007.  And this is just the breakdown per year.  So we can see

17     here which exhumations and when and where have been conducted within the

18     particular period of time, or on specific date.  As we can see, the

19     second column, it says the date of the exhumation conducted, and then we

20     have the third column, we have the place of the exhumation.  And the

21     fourth column, it says the municipality of exhumation.  And then we have

22     the fifth column where it says the code, the exhumation code which was

23     assigned to particular body, body part, or anything.

24             And then later we have the columns where we have different

25     numbers how many such individuals cases have been collected from the

Page 14757

 1     ground.  And this is -- this is all relate to surface remains which were

 2     collected in that area.  And we can see from the third column that most

 3     of them have been collected from Pobudje area.  And also the commission

 4     is referring to these bodies as being collected from Pobudje, although we

 5     can see the exact site was Kamenica.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And this is for -- what we're looking at now is ERN

 7     page X018968 [sic] and that refers to the year 1996 and indicates a total

 8     number, I believe, of 213 plus 52, from the Finnish team.  And for a

 9     total of 265; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.  On this table, we can see the last column

11     is referring to Finnish team exhumation with a code-name PM, and those 52

12     cases were collected by Finnish team.

13        Q.   Let's just go over to the next page --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we do that, we should correct the

15     transcript.  The ERN number was wrongly recorded.  It should be X0189698.

16     Thank you.

17             Please continue.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Let's take a look at the next page, 1997.

19        Q.   And here we have similar information.  If we go to the following

20     page, we should see the total.  Here it says 159, is that right,

21     exhumations?

22        A.   Correct, 159 cases were collected from the surface in 1997.

23        Q.   And that should correspond, indeed, to P2076, page 3, showing the

24     table in English and the second page in the B/C/S which records the same

25     number.  And let's look at the next page, X018971 [sic].  And this is for

Page 14758

 1     1998.  And records 30 exhumations there; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.  And we can see from this table that all those

 3     exhumed are collected on a surface in 1998 were collected from Zvornik

 4     area.  So those were not collected in Pobudje area.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again this is an mistake with the number.

 6     Mr. Vanderpuye, you misspoke.  The last figure should be 9701.  The 0 was

 7     missing.

 8             Please carry on.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   I'm not going to go through all of them, but have you had a

11     chance to check this against the table that I showed you, P2076 and can

12     you confirm that the numbers and totals reflected in this attachment

13     appear in that table.

14        A.   Yes, I have had the chance to review all these tables and I can

15     confirm that they correspond.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender 65 ter 2769A.

17     I wondered, and this may be a question for the Registrar, whether it

18     could be admitted under a sub-designation of P2076 because it is -- it is

19     essentially an attachment to that document.  It might be easier to find

20     later on.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I wanted to put this question to you, why you

22     didn't tendered it with the original document?

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's a good question.  I think the answer to

24     that is that the original document came in as a 92 ter or 92 bis exhibit,

25     so it had already been premarked or provisionally admitted and was

Page 14759

 1     subsequently admitted with the testimony of Ewa Tabeau.  And only part of

 2     it had been used with her in her prior testimony and not the full

 3     document which is why only part of it came in.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These sheets, the attachment to P2076, will be

 6     marked for identification, pending translation, as P2076A.

 7             Please carry on.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Just to follow up on a question that was put to you by the

10     Honourable Judge Nyambe, you were asked a question also by

11     General Tolimir concerning how you characterise victims in your report.

12     And what I wanted to ask you was:  In relation to the surface remains

13     that were recovered, were any of these surface remains, as per your

14     report, or in your -- or, in your view, did you consider them as

15     non-combat-related casualties, that is, the victims of executions the

16     same as some individuals or all of the individuals, you've said, that

17     were recovered from the mass graves?

18        A.   Yes, correct.  Some of them were executed.  We have evidence on

19     them being executed.

20        Q.   Just so that we're clear, the transcript reference for

21     Judge Nyambe's question, I don't have but I think we can all remember

22     that; but for General Tolimir's questions on cross-examination, the

23     transcript is page 14.677 and lines 14 through 22.  In particular, he

24     asked you whether or not your report was neutral in the sense of

25     describing whether a person was killed in combat or was killed in an

Page 14760

 1     unlawful way.  And in response, you indicated that your report presents

 2     the numbers of individuals identified from the graves, individual graves

 3     found on the surface, and you said you thought you were clear in your

 4     testimony that you confined combat casualties within the category of

 5     surface remains.

 6             So my question is really just the inverse of that, whether you

 7     can find non-combat execution-type casualties within the surface remains.

 8        A.   Yes, of course.

 9        Q.   And, in particular, can you tell us to the best of your

10     recollection whether or not you included the remains found in

11     Godinjske Bare related to Trnovo as non-combat-related remains, victims?

12        A.   They are in a section others in my report, and we all know that

13     from the video on their execution that they were killed.

14        Q.   And what about executions near Snagovo?  Did you include those

15     individuals among the victims recovered from the surface?

16        A.   Yes.  I think those individuals are found -- actually, there is

17     one individual, if I'm not mistaken, which was found in Tisova Kosa which

18     was found on the surface and we know that he was executed.  Another one

19     was being found in a grave which is referred to in my report as Brezeva

20     grave.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, I was going to ask you about Tisova Kosa,

22     which, as you know, in the investigation relates to what's referred to as

23     Nezuk executions.  But referring more specifically to the Snagovo

24     executions, do you recall what grave-sites or what locations were

25     associated with the executions of these men, approximately six of them?

Page 14761

 1        A.   I think I was asked this question already before, and I still

 2     don't know the answer.  So I don't know, actually.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 6             Just now, in page 26, line 19 to 21, in answer to

 7     Mr. Vanderpuye's question, you have said as follows:

 8             "I think those individuals are found -- actually, there is one

 9     individual, if I'm not mistaken. ... which was found on the surface and

10     we know that he was executed."

11             Now how do you distinguish this individual, who I understand is

12     found on the surface, among other surface remains as having been executed

13     as opposed to maybe having died of -- having died in combat or suicide or

14     by walking over a land-mine?  How are you able to distinguish this

15     particular individual as having been executed?

16             Thank you.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  For this particular individual,

18     we have a statement.  And also it's evidence in this case, because

19     survive of this execution testified here, and he named this individual as

20     being executed next to him.  And he was found on the surface.

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, you mentioned that you had some information concerning an

25     individual that was executed in the area of Tisova Kosa, as testimony in

Page 14762

 1     this case.  Are you aware of any other testimony that was given with

 2     respect to this issue in this or in the Popovic case?

 3        A.   I think in relation to this issue, to this same execution, we

 4     have two survivors and both testified in these two cases.  For one, I am

 5     sure in this case.  I mean, in Tolimir trial.  The other, I think,

 6     testified in Popovic trial.

 7        Q.   What I'd like to show you -- well, let me ask you this before I

 8     do.

 9             Did you consider the testimony of these two individuals in your

10     characterisation of the surface remains recovered from Tisova Kosa as of

11     non-combat -- as non-combat-related casualties?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Then let me show you 65 ter 6208.  This is the --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should not be broadcast.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   What I'm showing you is the testimony of PW-139 in the Popovic

17     case.  And the date of the testimony is the 6th and 7th November 2006.

18     And I'd like to refer you first to page 3672.  Should be page 16 or so of

19     this -- it is.

20             And here you can see at lines -- just through line 15, that what

21     this individual was talking about is about -- an event that occurred on

22     18th or 19th of July, 1995.

23             And if we go to the next page, 373 [sic], you will see at line --

24     at line 21, he is asked the question:

25             "May I stop you for a moment.  Can I first [sic] ask you if you

Page 14763

 1     know approximately where this happened?"

 2             And he indicates the location of Tisova Kosa.

 3             If we go to the next page -- at the bottom of this page we can

 4     see the question:

 5             "Is this the location you believe you were captured?"

 6             And then we go to the next page, and he indicates that the area

 7     is referred to as Baljkovica.  And he says that it was mentioned on a

 8     radio set the location Tisova Kosa, some 3 kilometres from Baljkovica.

 9             If we go down to the bottom of this page, we'll see that it is in

10     private session.  So I think we need to go into private session for a

11     moment, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

13                           [Private session]

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 14764











11     Pages 14764-14767 redacted. Private session.















Page 14768

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has

22     nothing against admitting this PW- -- the protected witness, but it would

23     be better for us if he were to appear here as a witness.

24             And next, can Mr. Vanderpuye explain how were individual cases

25     from Tisova Kosa resolved, also in Baljkovica, independent cases of

Page 14769

 1     execution which is, of course, good.  But cases of 800, or even more,

 2     dead about which I called in 1D777, 778, 780 and 782 have not been

 3     investigated because 800 or more executed persons and their surface

 4     remains are mentioned.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir, you may deal with that

 6     during your Defence case.

 7             Mr. Vanderpuye, please continue and try to conclude your

 8     re-examination.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             If we can go over a few minutes over, hopefully I will be able to

11     get done.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:

14        Q.   Mr. Janc, you were asked some questions about the Vragolovi

15     grave-site at page 14.724 of the transcript.  And, in particular, you

16     were asked by General Tolimir whether the Vragolovi grave was a primary

17     or secondary site.  And in your answer, you refer to a statement by

18     Eva Klonowski.

19             Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I'd like to show you the statement by Eva Klonowski.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Going to be 65 ter 7411.

23             Mr. President, this is yet another document which was not on the

24     Prosecution's original 65 ter exhibit list, but, as can you see, it is

25     directly responsive to the issues that were raised during the

Page 14770

 1     cross-examination concerning the Vragolovi grave-site.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, any objection to add this document

 3     to the 65 ter exhibit list?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             We have no objections to any facts that would put us in a clearer

 6     situation, all of us who are here in the courtroom.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             Leave is granted to add this document to the 65 ter exhibit list.

 9             Mr. Vanderpuye.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Here we can see the statement by Dr. Klonowski.  The interview is

12     dated 17 February 2010.  I'd like to go to page 3 in the English.  It's

13     paragraph number 15.

14             And in paragraph 15, you can see here she indicates that this

15     was, in her opinion, a shallow primary grave, based on the position of

16     the bodies, and so forth.  Their completeness.  She also indicated that

17     if it was a secondary grave, unless the bodies were moved from the

18     primary grave within a couple of weeks they would not have been in an

19     anatomical order.

20             Did you consider this, which I can see was done shortly before

21     your report, but did you consider it in preparing your report?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   And, in fact, did you refer to it specifically on page 30 of

24     Annex A of your report, concerning the Vragolovi grave-site?

25        A.   Yes, I did refer to this statement.

Page 14771

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this

 2     statement.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many pages does this witness statement to the

 4     OTP encompass?

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The statement itself, Mr. President, is -- it's

 6     two pages.  With the cover page and the attachment, four.  It has certain

 7     attachments that are referenced specifically in it.  And the total number

 8     of pages is 105 pages, and that is because it attaches certain ICMP

 9     records concerning the individuals recovered from the -- 43 pages, I'm

10     sorry.  43 pages.  It attaches ICMP records concerning the DNA

11     identification of the individuals found in the grave, of certain

12     individuals found in the grave, as well as autopsy notes, notations.  And

13     she specifically refers to these in paragraph 22 of the statement.  She

14     characterised them as follows:  Marked A is a sketch showing the position

15     of the bodies that were found in the grave that she refers to, marked --

16     I'm sorry, that's marked B.  The sketch of the site is marked A, and the

17     documents regarding the bodies that were recovered from the site are C.

18     And those include autopsy notes, ICMP records and so forth.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I have a problem with this

20     procedure.  To present a report -- in fact, a report by an expert witness

21     who will not testify in this trial, by showing it -- a part of it to this

22     witness, as a -- as an investigator of the OTP.

23             I'm not sure if this is the best way to introduce this report

24     into evidence.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would first say, Mr. President, that I don't

Page 14772

 1     actually consider it to be a report but, in fact, a statement, but I know

 2     the rule applies just the same.  But, I would point out that what it also

 3     shows is the reliability of Mr. Janc's report, and as well as

 4     substantiations the conclusions that he draws in his report.  In

 5     particular, at page 30 of Annex A of his report, he says very

 6     specifically:

 7             "According to the exhumation record and to forensic

 8     anthropologist Eva Klonowski," giving the ERN of the document which I

 9     have shown the witness and the Court who was present during the

10     exhumation, "... nine bodies were found inside the grave, DNA

11     examinations by ICMP of human remains located within the Vragolovi grave,

12     so far indicated the following numbers."

13             And he has here eight identified individuals of the nine bodies

14     that were recovered from the grave which is, of course, substantiated and

15     corroborated by the statement of Dr. Klonowski.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber should postpone a

17     decision on your move to admit it into evidence --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witnesses please slow down and pause

19     between question and answers for the benefit of the interpreters.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My apologies.  We should postpone the decision of

22     the Chamber in relation of your move to admit this document into

23     evidence.  We have to review it, the content, to review it and the

24     relation to the report of Mr. Janc.  It was a very brief introduction,

25     and we should only marked for identification for the moment.

Page 14773

 1             It will be marked for identification.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have just ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7411 shall be

 6     assigned Exhibit P2246, marked for identification.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you should come to an end.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Let me just ask for

 9     65 ter 06232.

10        Q.   And while that is loading, let me just ask you very quickly,

11     Mr. Janc:  In your report of April 2010, you indicated that eight out of

12     the nine individuals recovered from Vragolovi have been identified.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   To your knowledge, has that changed?  Has the ninth person been

15     identified since your report?

16        A.   Yes, the number is still the same.

17        Q.   All right.  Let me just show you what I have here as 65 ter 6232.

18     On May 18th 2010, during your cross-examination you were asked by

19     General Tolimir specifically this, "Do you consider" -- this is at

20     page 2026 of the transcript through 2027:

21             "Do you consider that the destruction of evidence, items found in

22     graves, would actually prevent," and this is how it is in the transcript,

23     "... prevent a super analysis or super expert report that would," and

24     then it's blank, "in order to check the findings of OTP experts?"

25             Your answer was:

Page 14774

 1             "Not necessarily, because if they are well preserved, and most of

 2     them are we well preserved, we have photographs of them and we have

 3     descriptions, reports on them.  I don't think that would necessarily be

 4     the case.  What I am showing you here is some photographs of ligatures."

 5             And we can blow it up so he can see it a little bit better.  Just

 6     a few would be fine.

 7             First of all, do you recognise what I'm showing you?

 8        A.   Yes, these are ligatures, photographs of ligatures which were

 9     found in mass graves.

10        Q.   And are these the photographs or some of the photographs you're

11     referring to when you say that we have taken photographs of items that

12     were found in the mass graves during the course of your

13     cross-examination?

14        A.   Yes, correct.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this exhibit.

16     I have a second one which I'd like to show him.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, how many page?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's one page, but it features, as can you see,

19     a number of different or discrete photographs.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6232 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit P2247.  Thank you.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 6233, as

24     well, please.  6233.

25        Q.   Mr. Janc, do you recognise this exhibit?

Page 14775

 1        A.   Yes, these are photographs of blindfolds found in these mass

 2     graves.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd also like to tend this exhibit,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6233 shall be

 8     assigned Exhibit P2248.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Defence would like to know whether

11     the two exhibits that were just admitted are in any relation to

12     Vragolovi.  Because it seems that we have some reference to other

13     grave-sites and there is no mention of Vragolovi.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Actually, those exhibits speak to all of the items and --

17     recovered from all graves, in response to the cross-examination that was

18     conducted I think I said 18th May 2010, and I indicated the transcript

19     reference.

20        Q.   Last issue, Mr. Janc, and hopefully we can do this extremely

21     fast, is:  General Tolimir asked you on page 14727 through 14728 of the

22     transcript in these proceedings on Thursday last, the following:

23             "Was it possible in conversations with prisoners who were in

24     Rogatica to find out who disappeared from the group of prisoners and why

25     they didn't appear" -- and then there's some colloquy between

Page 14776

 1     Mr. President, the interpreter, and the accused, but he says:

 2             "... why they didn't appear at the exchange at the same time as

 3     the others who were with them at the Rasadnik prison?"

 4             And your answer was that:

 5             "Yes, there were several statements, not only of Mr. Torlak, also

 6     other individuals imprisoned in Rasadnik prison and later on exchanged

 7     were testifying or talking about these individuals."

 8             And these are individuals in the Vragolovi grave; is that right,

 9     Mr. Janc?

10        A.   Yes, correct.

11        Q.   And:

12             "Some of them also testified or stated that they were maltreated

13     and beaten badly and they concluded that they were killed.  Nobody

14     actually has seen that, when and how they were killed, but they never

15     appeared back again and they were never exchanged.  And now we know where

16     they were found.  And from the exhumation records we can see that they

17     were killed, executed."

18             I have two questions for you.  One is:  During the course of your

19     investigations, have you learned whether or not the Main Staff of the VRS

20     was involved in the exchange process?

21        A.   Yes.  The Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, yes.

22        Q.   And do you know if General Tolimir is indicated as having been so

23     involved?

24        A.   Yes, correct.  I have -- I have reviewed several documents so far

25     with Tolimir's name on it and in relation to these issues, to the

Page 14777

 1     exchange of prisoners of war.

 2        Q.   In your review of these documents, did you ever come across a

 3     document indicating that there were certain prisoners who could be banned

 4     from being exchanged?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, this

 7     is beyond the scope of cross-examination.  Second of all, perhaps we

 8     should see where the reference is where Mr. Tolimir is referred to

 9     concerning the detainees from Olovo [phoen] since the witness said he saw

10     several such documents.  Perhaps he could specify at least one.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, can you give us a reference?

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm going to show Mr. Janc a document from --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, a reference from the cross-examination.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I can.  He was asked, and this is at

15     page 14727, specifically:

16             "Q.  Thank you, Mr. Janc.  You said just now that Torlak said

17     that this and this other person said that.

18             "Was it possible in conversation with the prisoners who ... in

19     Rogatica to find out who disappeared from the group of prisoners and

20     why," continuing from another point in the transcript, "why they didn't

21     appear at the exchange at the same time as the others who were with them

22     at the Rasadnik prison?"

23             So my question to Mr. Janc is first:  Does he know whether or not

24     the Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, because the question

25     was about the exchange of these prisoners.

Page 14778

 1             The second question is whether or not the investigation has -- he

 2     has learned in his capacity as an investigator in this case whether or

 3     not General Tolimir, himself, was involved in that exchange process.  And

 4     the third thing I want to ask is about a document.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you satisfied?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not.  Because

 7     no document is shown which would tell us that I participated in the

 8     exchange process.  It was only stated but, we need to see a document

 9     which makes direct reference to me as having participated.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The first request was given by Mr. Vanderpuye,

11     the reference to the part of the cross-examination.  In relation to this

12     specific question about the knowledge of Mr. Janc, I would agree with

13     Mr. Tolimir, to show a document would help to clarify the situation.

14     Otherwise, he is not the right witness to testify about these possible

15     allegations.

16             We are at the end of the tapes for the first session.  We

17     extended the first hearing by 20 minutes already.  We should come to an

18     end.

19             Do you have any more questions, Mr. Vanderpuye?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have two documents, precisely the type of

21     documents that you'd like to see.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not possible before the break.

23             We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 4.35.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.

Page 14779

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.38 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I come back to the question of

 4     the -- one document we have received but only some pages of a transcript,

 5     the testimony of the witness.  I would like to ask the Prosecution to

 6     upload these pages into e-court so that we can design the specific P

 7     number to that part of the transcript.  You may use other parts with

 8     other witnesses, but, otherwise, it is a little bit tricky to have it

 9     confidential only in relation to this part.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We will do that.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If fact, this relates to 65 ter 06208, especially

12     the pages 3672 through 3679.  And the Registry has already assigned the

13     number P2245, under seal, to this exhibit.

14             Please continue, and I would kindly ask you to conclude as soon

15     as possible.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I will.

17             I have two documents I'd like to show Mr. Janc, and I'll show

18     them both and then I'll ask him just a question or two after.

19             The first is 65 ter 3640.

20        Q.   What we have here, Mr. Janc, as you can see, is a document from

21     the security and intelligence administration from 29 May 1993.  And it

22     concerns the prisoner exchange, and it says commission work, prisoner

23     exchange, commission's work.

24             If we go to the last page of this document, page 2 in English, I

25     believe, and it's page 2 in B/C/S, too.  You can see that it is from

Page 14780

 1     General Tolimir.  I indicated this is from 29 May 1993.  And what it

 2     states is:

 3             "In the future, all reports on the work of the commission POW

 4     exchanges, lists of exchanged persons and persons offered for exchange

 5     shall be sent by telegram to the Republika Srpska Main Staff."

 6             And we see it's signed Chief Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.

 7             I'd like to show the next document, if I may, Mr. President.  And

 8     that's 65 ter 4077.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not on the list of documents to be used

10     with this witness.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're correct, Mr. President.  The reason I've

12     included it is because it is responsive directly to Mr. Tolimir's

13     objection or his concerns during the course of the re-direct examination.

14        Q.   This document, you can see, is dated 3rd September 1995.  And it

15     also concerns the exchange of prisoners and indicates that it is a

16     report.  And it refers to requests made by the commanders of the 1 KK and

17     IVK, concerning the exchange of prisoners.  And I'd like to take you to

18     page 4 of this document.  Should be -- this is the correct page in B/C/S.

19     And here, we can see the second paragraph from the top which regards in

20     part that:

21             "The exchange commission chairmen must view the exchange proposal

22     integrally, as does the Main Staff of the VRS, since, so far, the

23     Main Staff has made the necessary number of prisoners available for the

24     corps commissions in circumstances where they did not have a sufficient

25     number of captured enemy soldiers to exchange for all the captured

Page 14781

 1     members of their corps."

 2             And then it says:

 3             "Security organs and exchange commission chairmen must also avoid

 4     using parents' bitterness because it is not possible to exchange

 5     prisoners who have been in prison for quite some time, particularly

 6     because the VRS Main Staff is not responsible for this situation, rather,

 7     it is the result of the small number of enemy soldiers captured by our

 8     units."

 9             If we go to the last page and on the bottom of the page in the

10     B/C/S, we can see that this comes from General Tolimir,

11     Assistant Commander.

12             I have two questions, Mr. Janc.  The first is:  Do these

13     documents show, as you've testified, the involvement of General Tolimir

14     and the Main Staff in the prisoner exchange process?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just have an

17     objection to the fact that Mr. Vanderpuye and the witness said that I

18     participated in the exchange of prisoners from Vragolovi.  And I was not

19     in Republika Srpska even theoretically at the time, but I will not

20     testify.  But, please, can Mr. Vanderpuye clarify whether a document from

21     1993 and a document about the exchange from 1995, which relate to the 1st

22     and 2nd Corps, can -- have to do with Vragolovi and the exchange which

23     took place in Vragolovi in January of 1996.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think my question

Page 14782

 1     was very clear from the beginning, and I believe I asked it before we

 2     broke, which was:  In response to Mr. Tolimir's questioning of Mr. Janc

 3     on cross-examination as to why it is that certain prisoners at Vragolovi

 4     did not appear for exchange, I asked Mr. Janc if he was aware if the

 5     Main Staff was involved in the exchange of prisoners and whether or not

 6     General Tolimir was involved in the exchange of prisoners.  And he

 7     indicated that the answer was yes.  That's the reason why I'm showing him

 8     these documents, to confirm the basis of his knowledge or the source of

 9     his information reaching that conclusion.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have some problem to understand why you are

11     putting these questions to Mr. Janc, as an investigator of the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm putting them to Mr. Janc, Mr. President,

14     because General Tolimir put to Mr. Janc the question of why it is that

15     certain prisoners didn't show up for exchange.  And that can be found in

16     the transcript at 14727 through 14728.  Where he specifically asked him:

17     Was it possible -- was it possible to find out why they didn't appear at

18     the exchange at the same time as the others who were with them in the

19     Rasadnik prison.

20             So my question is whether or not Mr. Janc is aware if the

21     Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, I think is how I

22     characterised it almost verbatim, which doesn't necessarily have to do

23     with Rasadnik prison or Vragolovi grave, particularly, but with the

24     process of exchange of prisoners, and, by that, I mean all prisoners

25     which is what I think these documents demonstrate and I've put to

Page 14783

 1     Mr. Janc.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, do you have any knowledge about that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm

 4     that I have seen and reviewed these two documents along with many, many

 5     others, which relate to the same topic and are signed by General Tolimir.

 6             So I can say that he -- the Main Staff and, particularly,

 7     General Tolimir was involved in this exchange process.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your knowledge is based on these documents that

 9     we have seen today in the courtroom; correct?

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Also on these two documents but not only on

11     these two documents.  There are many, many others, especially from

12     December 1995 and January 1996.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you are referring to other documents, or do

14     you have other sources for this information?

15             THE WITNESS:  I'm referring now mostly, and I think exclusively

16     to documents, yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would tender the

20     two documents I've shown Mr. Janc.  If this is still -- if this is an

21     issue for the Court, I have other documents I can show him as well.

22             The two documents I showed were 65 ter 3640 and 4077,

23     Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have any objections, Mr. Tolimir?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no objection, Mr. President.

Page 14784

 1     I do not distance myself at all from any activities of the Main Staff.

 2     I'm just saying that in January 1996 when the exchange about which the

 3     witness was saying, that that is something I did not participate in.

 4     This is why I requested that a document be shown which shows that I did

 5     not take part in this.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As there is no objection, both documents will be

 8     received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3640 shall be

10     assigned Exhibit P2249.  And the 65 ter document 4077 shall be assigned

11     Exhibit P2250.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I can show Mr. Janc

14     one other document at 4088 --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You wanted to show two documents.  You have done

16     that already.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I have no problem resting at this

18     point, but I understand that General Tolimir has an issue as concerns his

19     involvement in the prisoner exchange process.  Mr. Janc has referred to

20     documents from December of 1995, and I have one such document I can show

21     him.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please go ahead.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's 65 ter 4088.

24        Q.   This is a document, Mr. Janc, from 15 December 1995 also from the

25     Main Staff.

Page 14785

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we go to the next page in the B/C/S, we will

 2     see that this document is from General Tolimir.

 3             And if we go to item number 1 on this document, on the first

 4     page.  Item number 1 is at the bottom, yeah.

 5        Q.   And it reads that --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there an English translation?

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe there is.  I'm looking at one, but I'm

 8     not sure if it is uploaded.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told it was not uploaded.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I will read this part of the document, and maybe

11     we can marked for identification, pending translation.

12             It reads just above item number 1, it talks about the

13     implementation of an exchange.  And then item 1 says:

14             "From 0800 hours on 16 December 1995, send lists of people from

15     our prisons whom we can offer to be exchanged to the Main Staff,

16     General Tolimir, personally."

17        Q.   Again, Mr. Janc, my question is:  Is this one of the documents

18     that you have relied on or that you have reviewed and/or relied on in

19     reaching the conclusion that you have concerning General Tolimir's

20     involvement in the prisoner exchange process?

21        A.   Yes, exactly.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would tender this last exhibit.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No objection, Mr. Tolimir?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  No, Mr. President.  I'm

25     just saying that I did not take part in the exchange on the 18th of

Page 14786

 1     January, 1996, about which Mr. Vanderpuye has been talking.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since there is, again, no objection, this will be

 3     marked for identification, pending translation.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 4088 shall be

 5     assigned Exhibit P2251, marked for identification, pending translation.

 6     Thank you.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That concludes my re-direct examination,

 8     Mr. President.  I appreciate your indulgence.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, you will be pleased to hear that this

11     concludes your testimony in this trial.  You have been quite often in

12     this courtroom and in this trial testifying here.  The Chamber would like

13     to thank you that you were able to come here and to provide us with your

14     knowledge.

15             Now you are free to return to your normal activities, and there

16     is no limitation of your contact to your colleagues in the OTP any

17     longer.  Thank you very much.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, is the next witness ready.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand that he is ready, Mr.  President.

22             There is one other issue, though; and that is, in relation to

23     Mr. Janc's testimony, we did also plan to call him in relation to some

24     intercept evidence which I think is also part of his 65 ter summary and

25     in the application that we had to re-call him, but we will have to

Page 14787

 1     schedule that for some other time.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             The next witness should be brought in, please.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Elderkin.  Welcome to the

 6     courtroom.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, good afternoon.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on

11     the card which is shown to you now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  MEHO DZEBO

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

17     yourself comfortable.

18             Mr. Elderkin for the Prosecution is now conducting the

19     examination-in-chief.

20             Mr. Elderkin.

21             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

22                            Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

23        Q.   Witness, good afternoon.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Now, sir, we've already met.  My name is Rupert Elderkin.  And as

Page 14788

 1     we go through this examination, I'd ask that we both try and keep our

 2     speaking speed slow enough for the interpreters to keep up with us, in

 3     particular since I know that you understand English very well, but,

 4     please, wait for the translation into your own language before you reply.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Please say your name for the record.

 7        A.   My name is Meho Dzebo.

 8        Q.   When were you born?

 9        A.   13th of July, 1962.

10        Q.   Where were you born?

11        A.   I was born in Zepa.

12        Q.   What is your nationality?

13        A.   Muslim.

14        Q.   Where did you grow up?

15        A.   I grew up in Zepa, my birth place.

16        Q.   And did you, at some time, perform service with the JNA?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   Please tell us when was that, and in what function you served.

19        A.   I served in Zagreb from April 1982 until May 1983.  And I served

20     the army as a military policeman.

21        Q.   Did you remain on the reserve after completing your JNA service?

22        A.   Yes.  I was deployed to the reserve station of the police in

23     Rogatica and its department in Zepa.

24        Q.   What was your profession before the war started?

25        A.   I'm a tool and die maker by profession, and I worked on

Page 14789

 1     maintaining machines at the Sjemec building timber factory in Rogatica.

 2        Q.   And were you living as well in Rogatica before the war?

 3        A.   Yes, I used to have a family house in Rogatica.

 4        Q.   Now, going to the beginning of the war time period, were you ever

 5     mobilised --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move on, I just want to know what is

 7     your citizenship, of which state in the former Yugoslavia?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the outbreak of the war, I

 9     was a citizen of Yugoslavia, and since the war, I have been a citizen of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Currently, I have dual citizenship.  In addition to

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina citizenship, I also have the United States

12     citizenship.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Please continue, Mr. Elderkin.

15             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Sir, talking now about the period at the beginning of the 1990s,

17     were you ever mobilised from the police reserve?

18        A.   I was mobilised to the reserve police force on the

19     19th of September, 1991.

20        Q.   What did that mobilisation involve?

21        A.   It means that I was activated to the police station where I had

22     my war time deployment.

23        Q.   Where was that?

24        A.   That was in Zepa.

25        Q.   How long did that period of mobilisation last?

Page 14790

 1        A.   It lasted up until the beginning of the war, but I was withdrawn

 2     in January 1992, back to Rogatica, in order to man the composition of

 3     their unit.

 4        Q.   After being withdrawn back to Rogatica, did you return to Zepa at

 5     some point?

 6        A.   Yes, I returned to Zepa on the 21st of July, 1992, after the fall

 7     of Rogatica, and after that part of Bosnia and Herzegovina was occupied.

 8        Q.   What were the circumstances of that move from Rogatica to Zepa?

 9     Were you travelling on your own?  Did you move with other people?

10        A.   We travelled by groups.  There would be groups of 20, 30, up to

11     50 people, and the people were withdrawing through the woods, to the free

12     territories which existed at the time, and that was the route.

13        Q.   You said that Rogatica was occupied.  Again, to be clear for the

14     record, occupied by whom?

15        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska and the then-JNA occupied it.

16        Q.   Who were the people in the groups that were withdrawing to Zepa?

17        A.   That was mostly the Muslim population.

18        Q.   When you went to Zepa, where did you go to live?

19        A.   I went to my parents, and I spent the rest of the war in their

20     house.

21        Q.   Can you give us a basic description of where your parents' house

22     is in relation to the centre of Zepa town itself.

23        A.   It is in a hamlet called Krnici [phoen], which is 4 kilometres to

24     the north of the centre of Zepa.

25        Q.   Who was living in this house with you during the war time period?

Page 14791

 1        A.   My parents, myself with my wife and our two children, and my

 2     younger brother with his wife.

 3        Q.   Did you participate in the defence of Zepa after you arrived in

 4     1992?

 5        A.   Yes.  Immediately in July 1992, when I arrived, I joined the army

 6     or the then-Territorial Defence of Zepa, actually.  And I remained with

 7     them until the November of the same year.

 8             After that, I was transferred again to the reserve police station

 9     in Zepa, and I remained there until the end; that is to say, until the

10     fall of Zepa.

11        Q.   Was there any reason for that transfer that you knew of?

12        A.   Well, probably as my war time assignment was a position in the

13     reserve police station, that could have been the only reason for them to

14     transfer me back there once again.

15        Q.   What was your role on the police reserve when you transferred

16     back to that, at the end of 1992?

17        A.   Yes, until April 1993 -- from the moment of my return, until

18     April 1993 [as interpreted], I had the duties of a regular policeman.

19     And from April 1993, until July 1995, I worked at the crime prevention

20     department of the police as an assistant -- an assistant to the

21     inspectors who were working within this department.

22        Q.   Please, could you tell us briefly what that role with the crime

23     prevention inspectors involved.

24        A.   Well, as I was wounded, I was moving with difficulty, and I was

25     mostly in charge of administrative duties, such as taking statements from

Page 14792

 1     citizens who had been brought in, making Official Notes, and that was it,

 2     more or less.

 3        Q.   You just mentioned that you were wounded.  Could you tell us the

 4     circumstances in which you sustained this wound?

 5        A.   As we were leaving Rogatica after the occupation, I managed to

 6     activate a land-mine, a trip mine, when we were leaving the town, and

 7     these were the circumstances under which I was wounded.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   You're welcome.

10        Q.   Where were you based as a police officer specifically?  I know it

11     was in the Zepa enclave.

12        A.   At the centre of Zepa.

13        Q.   Was there a specific building that was the police building?

14        A.   Yes.  It was the building of the agricultural co-operative, and

15     in one room we were housed.  And there was the Red Cross in another

16     building on the same floor [as interpreted].  And on the floor above us

17     was the army.

18        Q.   Did you perform any policing duties at any other location, apart

19     from in this building in the centre of Zepa?

20        A.   No, I didn't.

21        Q.   Did you wear a police uniform?

22        A.   We had no uniforms.  We worked in our civilian clothes.

23        Q.   And were you armed?

24        A.   Until the arrival of UNPROFOR in May 1993, we had weapons that

25     belonged to the reserve police force.  After that, in May 1993, we handed

Page 14793

 1     over our weapons to UNPROFOR.

 2        Q.   Were other men in the police or in the Bosnian Army armed even

 3     after UNPROFOR arrived, to your knowledge?

 4        A.   People had kept some side-arms, those who managed to keep

 5     something without handing it into UNPROFOR, but that was a very small

 6     quantity.  And these were mainly pistols and hunting guns.

 7        Q.   Did you ever hear anything about weapons being brought into the

 8     enclave; for example, by way of helicopter?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What did you hear about that?

11        A.   I'm not sure whether it was four or five helicopter flights by

12     which weapons were delivered to Zepa.

13        Q.   I'd like to ask you now about the conditions in the Zepa enclave.

14             Can you please describe, as best you can, what the living

15     conditions were like throughout the war, if you go year by year?  And I'm

16     particularly interested to hear about the food situation, medical care,

17     and safety and security for the population.  So starting in 1992.

18        A.   Yes.  1992 and up until the arrival of the UNPROFOR, that is to

19     say, up until May 1993, the situation was awful, beginning with the

20     security situation and managing to obtain food and medication and all

21     that.

22             We got a lot of help from NATO aircraft during the time while

23     they provided deliveries of food.  After the arrival of UNPROFOR, there

24     was quite enough food and medications.

25             And the security was at a much higher and better level, excluding

Page 14794

 1     the last offensive and the fall of Zepa in July 1995.

 2        Q.   Can you give us a brief account, then, of the conditions in 1995?

 3     Starting from the beginning of that year.

 4        A.   Well, until the beginning of the offensive, that is to say, until

 5     mid-July 1995, everything was normal, like in 1994 and the latter half of

 6     1993.  There was sufficient food.  There was no shelling, except of some

 7     sporadic fire, which can be ascribed to the shifts of groups of soldiers

 8     which were in certain localities on the hills surrounding Zepa.  But

 9     immediately before the offensive, perhaps a month before that, the food

10     convoys had been stopped, and after that, the offensive followed.  From

11     all sides, from Radava in the north and then Godjenje in the west, and

12     Boksanica to the south, and from the east, from the left bank of Drina,

13     from the area of Rujista, there was non-stop shelling and shooting until

14     the very moment of the fall of the place.

15        Q.   What areas were subject to the shelling that you've described in

16     the summer of 1995?

17        A.   All the populated places were shelled, the entire populated

18     section of Zepa.  The only parts that were spared were the facilities

19     where the Ukrainian Battalion was housed and everything else was shelled.

20        Q.   Do you recall any particular incidents where specific buildings

21     were hit or where people were hurt or killed by the shelling?

22        A.   There was a series of individual incidents when people were

23     killed by shelling.  Practically in all the villages, they were killed by

24     shell fragments.

25        Q.   Were these people who were killed, to your knowledge, soldiers or

Page 14795

 1     were any of them civilians?

 2        A.   Mostly civilians inside the town.  And practically all of the

 3     able-bodied men were on defence lines.

 4        Q.   Did the population try to escape from this shelling?

 5        A.   Well, you see, most inhabitants had their own shelters which were

 6     dug in the ground next to their houses.  And if the shelling intensified,

 7     people would flee with their children and enter these shelters.

 8        Q.   Since we have only talked about shelling in 1995, could you tell

 9     us briefly if you recall any incidents of shelling from earlier in the

10     war, 1992 through to 1994?

11        A.   Well, I said, 1992 was hellish in every sense of the word,

12     especially September 1992.  That was the hardest month.  And from the

13     direction of Radava, that is to say, from the north of the enclave, and

14     from Laze [phoen] and Borovac to the west, and in the Ribioc sector from

15     the direction of Borika from the south.  The same offensive was repeated

16     in May, just before the arrival of UNPROFOR, from the same areas within

17     the enclave.

18        Q.   You said there was an offensive in May just before the arrival of

19     UNPROFOR.  Could you tell us which year that was?  Again, to be clear for

20     the record?

21        A.   1993.

22        Q.   During those periods of shelling, again the same questions, as I

23     asked in relation to 1995, do you recall if anyone was hurt or killed in

24     any shelling incidents; and, if so, were those soldiers or civilians?

25        A.   At the very beginning of offensive was on Brezova Ravin where an

Page 14796

 1     attack was conducted against a facility where a shop was accommodated

 2     before the war.  Refugees were living there.  I'm not sure about the

 3     numbers, but I think there were 10 to 12 persons.  They all lost their

 4     lives.  Only one of them had been able-bodied.  All the others were women

 5     and children.

 6             After that, and all-out invasion on Zepa began, and there were

 7     people losing their lives in all parts of the territory, and that was

 8     caused by shelling.

 9        Q.   And this incident on Brezova Ravin was that in 1992 or 1993?

10        A.   No, that was the 3rd of May, 1993, in the early hours of the

11     morning.  From the direction of Oblaci [phoen], they attacked

12     Brezova Ravan.

13        Q.   I'll move to another subject.

14             During the war, was there any person or persons referred to in

15     Zepa as a hodza?

16        A.   Yes, there were three such persons.

17        Q.   Could you tell us their names, if you remember them, please.

18        A.   Mehmed Hajric.  Ramiz Dumanic.  And Jusip Jusipovic.

19        Q.   Did you know these men personally during the war, or have any

20     contact with them?

21        A.   I met them during the war.  I had not known any of them before

22     the war.  All three were refugees.  Jusif Jusipovic was not a certified

23     Imam, so to speak.  He was still studying.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

25             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask the

Page 14797

 1     Prosecutor to verify the spelling of these persons' names because what I

 2     see in the transcript does not reflect what I heard, I believe.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is, I think, a fair comment.

 4             Mr. Elderkin.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:

 6        Q.   Sir, you've given us the names of three men.  Could you please

 7     spell them out, letter by letter, for the names of those three men.

 8        A.   Mehmet Hajric, Ramiz Dumanic, Jusif Jusipovic.

 9        Q.   Sir, the names that have appeared on the screen in front of you

10     showing the transcript, are those the correct spellings for these three

11     mens' names?

12        A.   Mehmet is not spelled like this.  It should D.  It should end

13     with D, Mehmed.

14             As for Jusif.  It should be U instead of I.  And the same goes

15     for his last name.  Instead of the first I, there should be a U.

16        Q.   I think that's clear.

17             Sir, can you tell us about the duties that were performed by

18     these three men during the war?

19        A.   They were the mosque Imams.  They were at the helm of the Dzemat,

20     that is.

21        Q.   Could you explain briefly what that means?  It's not a term that

22     I think we've heard so far in this trial.

23        A.   They were in charge of religious rituals performed in the mosque.

24        Q.   What do you know about the background of Mr. Hajric before he

25     came to Zepa?

Page 14798

 1        A.   Not much.  I know that he had worked in Podzeplje.  His job there

 2     was the same as the one he performed in Zepa during the war.

 3        Q.   How was the work shared between these three men?

 4        A.   It was probably their internal arrangement as to who would be in

 5     charge of what ritual.

 6        Q.   Do you know what happened to each of these men when Zepa fell?

 7     Starting, say, with the man you said was not yet qualified as an Imam,

 8     Jusuf Jusupovic.

 9        A.   Yes.  Together with a group of military able-bodied men, Jusuf

10     crossed over to free territory somewhere in or around Kladanj.  He had

11     never returned to his Imam studies.  He completed his training as a

12     policeman, and he is currently employed as one in Sarajevo where he

13     lives.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The name is again incorrectly recorded.  It is

15     Jusuf Jusupovic.

16             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Jusupovic, I think.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:

19        Q.   So you say that he was --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- with a group of military able-bodied men and they crossed into

22     free territory.  Was this part of the evacuation process or were they

23     travelling on buses or how were they travelling?

24        A.   No.  They were on foot.  Different groups organised themselves

25     and each of them looked for their own route in order to reach the free

Page 14799

 1     territory controlled by the Army of BiH.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So that's Mr. Jusupovic.  How about Ramiz Dumanjic?  I

 3     hope I pronounced his name correctly.

 4        A.   Ramiz Dumanjic was on board of a bus, much like the rest of the

 5     population.  He was together with his wife and two children.  He was in

 6     Kakanj immediately following the war.  But I wouldn't know where he

 7     resides now.

 8        Q.   Do you know how it was possible for a man with wife and children

 9     to leave Zepa on a bus during the evacuation?

10        A.   On the first day of evacuation, it was easier to get out.  There

11     were less checks, since on that day, the Zepa Brigade commander,

12     Avdo Palic, personally escorted the convoy up to Kladanj.  All those who

13     managed to leave on that day, I can freely say, were lucky.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's correction:  The witness

15     stated that there were three children.  Mr. Dumanjic had three children,

16     not two.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, could you clarify that with the

18     witness again please.

19             MR. ELDERKIN:

20        Q.   Sir, could you tell us again how many children Mr. Dumanjic had

21     when he left Zepa?

22        A.   Three children, two daughters and a son.

23        Q.   Sir, were where you and what were you doing in June and July 1995

24     before Zepa fell?

25        A.   In the second half of June, my wounds became infected.  I had

Page 14800

 1     sustained them back in 1992.  The infection was advanced and there was a

 2     lot of puss.  I spent a number of days in our outpatient clinic in Zepa

 3     and they tried to surgically assist me.  Once the offensive began, I

 4     returned home in order to make room for those who were more seriously

 5     wounded.  That's when -- or, actually, it was in that place that I

 6     awaited the end of the war or the fall of Zepa.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you to clarify one sentence.

 8             We heard your answer but it was not properly recorded.  On page

 9     63, line 25 and the next two lines, the sentence is not complete:

10             "There were less checks, since on that day the Zepa brigade

11     commander, Avdo Palic.  Evacuate."

12             I think you should try to clarify this with the witness again,

13     please.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:

15        Q.   Sir, if you could again tell us how it was possible for

16     Mr. Dumanjic to leave Zepa on the first day of the evacuations.  You

17     mentioned Avdo Palic in come context.  If you could give that answer

18     again, please, since it is not clear on the record.

19        A.   Yes.  Once the agreement on the evacuation of population was

20     signed with the Serb side, it was arranged that the first convoy was to

21     be escorted by Avdo Palic, in order to indicate to the people how safe it

22     was to embark.

23             The first convoy went through without any problems.  No one was

24     mistreated, provoked, or taken off the bus.  All following convoys had

25     such events.  In other words, people were being taken off buses.

Page 14801

 1        Q.   I believe that's clear on that question now.

 2             Sir, can I return to your personal situation.  Where were you

 3     when you learnt that Zepa had fallen?

 4        A.   As I said, I was in my family home, that of my parents'.

 5        Q.   What day did you learn that Zepa had fallen?

 6        A.   One day before the evacuation.  The first convoy left on Tuesday.

 7     And Zepa had fallen on Monday.  The first convoy left on Tuesday, which

 8     was the 24th, or the 25th of July, 1995.

 9        Q.   And after you learnt that Zepa had fallen, did you remain at your

10     parents' house?

11        A.   No, I did not.  We went to the mountain that night.  From up

12     there, we could see the first convoy leave, and on that same night, we

13     returned to the centre of Zepa, to see how the evacuation process

14     developed, in terms of evacuating the -- those who were wounded, elderly

15     and civilians.  I joined those who were wounded, which were split -- who

16     were split in two groups.  One group first left on the next day, and I

17     remained as part of the second.  We were evacuated on the last day of

18     evacuation.

19        Q.   Did you see any Serb soldiers or officers in Zepa during those

20     days when you were in Zepa town awaiting evacuation?

21        A.   Yes.  Wednesday and Thursday; that is to say, the last two days

22     of evacuation.  That is when I saw General Tolimir, as well as Pecanac,

23     and some people escorting them.  They were in that part where the

24     civilians awaited to be evacuated.

25             So there was a small group of soldiers who were with them,

Page 14802

 1     perhaps five to six.

 2        Q.   You're giving a bit of detail in a relatively short answer.

 3             Just taking your time, tell us about the time or times, when you

 4     saw General Tolimir.  And you've also mentioned someone called Pecanac,

 5     so please also tell us about when you saw him.

 6        A.   The wounded, including myself, were placed in front of the old

 7     house -- old school building.  Those people I mentioned came with

 8     Avdo Palic to the area, and this is also where the Ukrainian Battalion

 9     was.  I don't know whether Dr. Boro came with them or whether he arrived

10     at some later point.  He checked all those wounded, made a new list, and

11     that list was actually used during the evacuation.

12             It was on Wednesday, in the morning; that is to say, the second

13     day of evacuation.

14        Q.   At the time, did you know who Tolimir was?

15        A.   No, I didn't know him personally.  I don't know if it was

16     Commander Palic who told us that it was General Tolimir.  In any case, I

17     didn't know him personally.

18        Q.   How about this person Pecanac?

19        A.   I think Avdo also told us his name.  He was present until the

20     last convoy left Zepa.  The last bus of the convoy was where the wounded

21     were, and he helped with that.  In other words, he remained until

22     Thursday, the last day of evacuation.

23        Q.   Again, just because it's not wholly clear from the answer as

24     interpreted in English, you said:

25             "Those people I mentioned came with Avdo Palic to the area."

Page 14803

 1             When you say "those people came with Avdo Palic," do you mean the

 2     two men we just mentioned, Tolimir and Pecanac, or do you mean some other

 3     people?

 4        A.   I had in mind Tolimir, Pecanac and those escorting them.  He

 5     returned from Kladanj on that day when he saw the convoy off.  They came

 6     together to the school compound.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, a correction for the transcript.  Your

 8     last question, Mr. Elderkin, was:  Did you mean Tolimir, Pecanac or

 9     others?  Pecanac was left out.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:  Indeed, I see.  And thank you for spotting that,

11     Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:

14        Q.   What were Tolimir, Pecanac and the other men you saw in the

15     escort doing, if anything, when you saw them?

16        A.   They weren't doing anything.  They came there with Avdo.  They

17     probably had some talks with him, made some plans or arrangements.  But

18     I'm not familiar with any of that.

19        Q.   Apart from Avdo Palic, did you see any men from the

20     Bosnian Muslim Army down in Zepa town while you were there waiting to

21     leave?

22        A.   As regards any army members, it was only Avdo Palic who was

23     present there at the time in the centre of Zepa, from where the

24     evacuation process took place.

25        Q.   Do you know where other members of the army were at that time?

Page 14804

 1        A.   They were up in the mountains, to the north of the centre of

 2     town.

 3        Q.   Sir, what was the mood among the Muslim population in Zepa during

 4     this period when you were down in Zepa town waiting to leave?

 5        A.   There was general panic and fear.  People worried how things

 6     would end.  It was a state of total chaos.

 7        Q.   At that time, did people know anything about what had happened to

 8     the men from Srebrenica?

 9        A.   Very little was known.  There were only individual cases of

10     people who managed to reach Zepa from Srebrenica.  They did tell some

11     things, but, in general terms, people didn't know the actual proportion

12     of what had taken place.

13        Q.   And at that time, did you personally meet anyone who had come

14     from Srebrenica?

15        A.   I did not.  Not at that moment.  But once we arrived in the camp,

16     I found Nedzad Kadric from Srebrenica.  He retold his story concerning

17     Srebrenica.

18        Q.   Please, could you tell us what was that story, as you remember

19     him telling you.

20        A.   Yes.  In his words, he managed to crawl out from under the bodies

21     of those who were executed somewhere in the area of Kravica, I believe.

22     He told us that two of his brothers were killed on the occasion, one of

23     whom was his twin brother, and the other one was younger than he was.

24             We didn't go into too much detail as to how and where he had been

25     captured.

Page 14805

 1        Q.   Did he have any injuries himself or did he manage to escape

 2     unscathed?

 3        A.   Yes.  He had two entry/exit wounds, one on his right leg, and the

 4     other in the ribcage area.

 5        Q.   Sir, did you and your family feel free to choose whether to stay

 6     in Zepa or to leave at the time when the VRS forces had arrived in the

 7     enclave?

 8        A.   To tell you the truth, no one even thought of staying because

 9     people did not feel safe and were distrustful.

10        Q.   And, in particular, for military-aged men, were they free to

11     choose to leave in the evacuation, to stay, or to make their own choices?

12        A.   It is difficult to answer that question.  Take my word for it

13     when I say that no one even thought about it.  The only important thing

14     was to save your hide.  No one even pondered staying.

15        Q.   To go back very quickly to clear up one point in this account you

16     heard from Nedzad Kadric about him surviving from some kind of execution.

17             Did you learn anything about the numbers of people who had been

18     at that place and who had been subjected to that execution?

19        A.   I don't recall him mentioning any specific numbers.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Your Honours, if we're sticking now to the regular

21     schedule, it looks like it's the break time.  And that would be a good

22     moment.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, it is time for our second break.  And we

24     will resume, quarter past 6.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

Page 14806

 1                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Elderkin, please continue.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, we finished up just before the break by talking about the

 5     atmosphere in Zepa during the evacuation, and we haven't yet covered your

 6     own departure from Zepa.

 7             So could you tell us how was it that you, as a military-aged man

 8     at that time, were waiting to be evacuated from Zepa and were down in

 9     Zepa town waiting to leave on the buses.

10        A.   During the negotiations at Boksanica between the representatives

11     of Zepa and VRS representatives, it was agreed that the civilians and

12     wounded should be evacuated.  I fell into the category of the wounded.

13        Q.   Were you registered by any international organisation during that

14     period of time, before you left from Zepa?

15        A.   Yes.  Well, it can be qualified as a type of -- a trick.  It

16     turned out that we were taken prisoner before we actually were.  The ICRC

17     did, indeed, register us within the UN compound in Zepa.

18        Q.   Do you know on what date they registered you?

19        A.   The penultimate day of evacuation.  I believe it was the 26th of

20     July, 1995.

21        Q.   How many people from the ICRC did you see in Zepa at that time?

22        A.   I'm not certain.  Say, four or five people.

23        Q.   Apart from registering sick and wounded people, did you see the

24     ICRC staff doing anything else in Zepa, around the time of the

25     evacuation?

Page 14807

 1        A.   No, they didn't do anything else.

 2        Q.   When did you finally leave Zepa?

 3        A.   On the last day of evacuation, on the 27th, Thursday, sometime in

 4     the afternoon.

 5        Q.   You told us earlier about seeing Avdo Palic in the company of

 6     General Tolimir and Pecanac.  Did you see any of those three people again

 7     after the time you described before you left Zepa?

 8        A.   Yes.  From the UNPROFOR compound to the bus, we were personally

 9     accompanied by Pecanac.  Avdo Palic remained as the only inhabitant or

10     member of the Zepa Army within the UN or UNPROFOR compound.  In front of

11     the school, a small tent was erected and he stayed there, sitting.

12        Q.   You've referred to the UNPROFOR compound and to the school.  Can

13     you clarify whether those are different places or the same place?

14        A.   It's the same place.

15        Q.   Was anyone with Avdo Palic when you saw him outside the compound

16     by this tent?

17        A.   No.  He remained seated alone in the tent.

18        Q.   You said that you were escorted to a bus by Pecanac.  Once you

19     got on this bus, where did you go?

20        A.   We left Zepa, in the direction of Rogatica.  All convoys left in

21     that direction, the ones that had left before ours.

22        Q.   Who was on the bus with you?

23        A.   There were 12 of us who were wounded or sick.  The rest were

24     civilians, like women, children, and the elderly.

25        Q.   Once you had left Zepa on the bus, where was the first place that

Page 14808

 1     you stopped?

 2        A.   We stopped in the area of Boksanica first, at the check-point of

 3     the Ukrainian battalion.

 4        Q.   How long were you stopped at that check-point?

 5        A.   We stayed until sometime around midnight; that is to say, the

 6     whole afternoon until that midnight.  Shortly after that, we went on

 7     towards Kladanj.

 8        Q.   During the time the bus was stopped at Boksanica, tell us what

 9     was happening.  Take as much time as you need.  That's a reasonably long

10     period of hours.

11        A.   Us, the wounded, I think there were some French doctors who took

12     us out and bandaged our wounds in one of their APCs.  We didn't know why

13     we stopped there, and I can't recall what time it was exactly.  I know

14     that Rajko Kusic, the local commander, entered our bus.  I don't know

15     whether he entered any other buses.  He introduced himself as

16     Commander Kusic.  He asked in a provocative manner where Avdo Palic was.

17     We remained silent.  I can even quote what he said.  He said, There he is

18     in Zepa shitting his pants.  I personally killed him.

19             Sometime before evening, Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric came on

20     the bus.  We mentioned him when we discussed the hodzas.  They followed

21     the course of the evacuation from Zepa, made up lists, and who was on

22     what bus.  They said that it was only to be a brief stop which was to be

23     resolved soon, and then we were supposed to carry on during the night.

24             I don't know why we were stopped at the time.  I learned of the

25     reason when I met Mehmet and Amir in the camp.  The Serb side sent Mehmet

Page 14809

 1     to the mountain to negotiate with the army so that they would hand over

 2     their weapons.  They were also supposed to surrender.  And all those who

 3     broke the law and all those who were deemed as being involved in some

 4     dirty business were to be prosecuted and the rest would be allowed to

 5     leave the area unhindered.  If they did not meet that request, they were

 6     told that all those who were on the last convoy would be killed.

 7             Just before midnight, he returned from the mountain and conveyed

 8     the reply of those who were up on the mountain.  They categorically

 9     refused to surrender.  Following that, we resumed our travel to Kladanj.

10        Q.   You mentioned --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, sorry for interrupting you.  I

12     think on page 73, line 2, an important part of that sentence was not

13     recorded.  In relation to Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric.  If I recall

14     correctly, the witness said they entered the bus.  This was not

15     mentioned.

16             Can you clarify this with the witness again, please.

17             MR. ELDERKIN:  Of course, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Sir, you began the part of your answer concerning seeing

19     Mr. Hajric and Imamovic by saying something about them, I think, getting

20     on the bus.  Could you tell us just in physical terms what happened when

21     you saw them.  What were they doing?

22        A.   They simply got on the bus.  They said that there was an obstacle

23     to be resolved and that we needn't be afraid.  They didn't specify what

24     the obstacle or what the cause of the stop was.

25        Q.   Are -- excuse me.

Page 14810

 1        A.   As I have said already, I only learned of the reason why we were

 2     stopped when I arrived in Rogatica in the camp when I met the two of

 3     them.  It is only then that they explained the reasons why we were

 4     stopped.

 5        Q.   I believe that clears up the --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.

 7             MR. ELDERKIN:  -- transcript issue.  So if I may continue,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please go ahead.

10             MR. ELDERKIN:

11        Q.   Sir, you mentioned Commander Kusic coming onto the bus while you

12     were stopped at Boksanica.  While you were at that location, did you see

13     any other Serb soldiers or officers?  Did anyone else from the Serb side

14     get on the bus while you were there, apart from Commander Kusic?

15        A.   They were accompanied by one or two of his escorts.  They didn't

16     say anything.  As for whether they went on the other buses, that's

17     something I don't know.  I didn't discuss it with anyone.  No one else

18     entered our buses.  Of course, there were other soldiers in the area

19     moving about, but no one approached us.

20        Q.   You didn't see any generals, anyone higher in rank than

21     Commander Kusic, present at that location?

22        A.   No, I didn't.

23        Q.   Sir, let me refer briefly to a number of your prior statements

24     just to clarify a reference I understand you made to seeing

25     General Mladic at Boksanica.

Page 14811

 1             Can you tell me whether you saw General Mladic at that location?

 2        A.   I don't remember I saw him then.  I did see him a few times in

 3     the camp where he visited while we were down there, but on that day, I do

 4     not remember.  Perhaps if it is in my statement, it's possible that it

 5     was a mistake while it was being typed, but I don't remember seeing him

 6     on that day.

 7        Q.   And, indeed, I can't now find the reference.  I believe I may be

 8     mistaken, so I should ask simply to leave that subject and move on.

 9             So where did the bus go after leaving Boksanica?

10        A.   After Boksanica, via Rogatica, in the direction of under --

11     Romanija, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, and in the direction of

12     Kladanj.

13        Q.   Where were you expecting the bus to take you and finally let you

14     leave?

15        A.   Probably as it had been agreed.  We all expected that they would

16     bring us to the free territory; that is to say, territory under the

17     control of the Army of BH, like all other convoys and other civilians who

18     were transported.

19        Q.   Where did you, in fact, stop in that bus?

20        A.   The first time we stopped and took a longer break in the early

21     hours of the morning, perhaps around 5.00 a.m. in Orlovske Luke area.  I

22     remember, between a cafe restaurant to the left of the road from

23     Vlasenica to Kladanj which is called Uranak [phoen], so we had been

24     driving not long.  I don't know the area very well.  I'm not familiar

25     with it.  But I heard from the people who were with us that this was

Page 14812

 1     Tisca.  And there was a school Tisca at the place where we had stopped,

 2     and practically it was supposed to be the final destination on our way to

 3     Kladanj.

 4        Q.   And tell us what happened when the bus had stopped in this

 5     location at Tisca?

 6        A.   Well, immediately after the bus stopped, an army officer,

 7     probably a member of the military police, boarded.  He had a white belt

 8     and shoulder straps and he boarded the buses and he asked, Are the

 9     wounded here?  Someone replied that they were.  He got off, and to the

10     right of the bus was General Tolimir standing.  He gave him a paper of

11     the form at A4 and the officer returned with the very same paper.  It was

12     the list of the wounded people.  He did a roll-call.  There were 12 of us

13     here but he had 13 names on the list, so there was Huso Devedzija, who

14     was missing.  He asked what happened to him.  No one knew.  It was only

15     later that we learned that he left on the previous day with one of the

16     convoys.

17             He order us to get off the bus and move into another one.  The

18     other one was parked next to ours, but it was turned into the opposite

19     direction; that is to say, facing Vlasenica.  We took our things.  We

20     moved there.  And perhaps half an hour or 20 minutes after that, they

21     brought another 28 elderly people to the same bus.  They were aged

22     between 55 and 60.  The bus then started in the direction of Vlasenica;

23     that is to say, the same road we had travelled, all the way to Rogatica.

24        Q.   The 28 elderly people you mentioned being brought onto the second

25     bus that you had been transferred to, do you know where they had come

Page 14813

 1     from?

 2        A.   I was aware from the same convoy by which we had come, and the

 3     others had been taken off the buses on the convoy that was travelling the

 4     previous night and they spent the night there.  They were waiting for us

 5     so that we would all return together.

 6        Q.   You said you went all the way to Rogatica.  Where did you go in

 7     Rogatica?

 8        A.   They first took us to the southern part of the town where the bus

 9     station is located.  We spent perhaps 15 to 20 minutes there, and then we

10     returned through the town to the northern part, where we were

11     accommodated at the administrative building of the agricultural

12     co-operative called Rasadnik.

13        Q.   Tell us what happened when you first arrived at that location,

14     Rasadnik?

15        A.   They took us out of the bus, lined us up, they began to search

16     us.  They searched through our personal belongings and searched our

17     bodies in the typical way that the police conducts those searches.  They

18     perhaps managed to search three or four men, and then General Tolimir

19     came again and told them or ordered them, as you like, to stop that, and

20     let them go inside, into the building.  They let us into the biggest room

21     in this building and he also entered it.  He said, It is true that we

22     have approved of your evacuation and allowed it, but it was on condition

23     that I believe 48 Serbian prisoners be released at the Dubrava airport

24     near Tuzla.  Your side has not honoured this, and we were forced to keep

25     you.  Don't worry, this will last two or three days and then it will be

Page 14814

 1     resolved.

 2             After that, he ordered that the wounded be separated from the

 3     elderly persons to a separate room.  Once the search was completed, he

 4     ordered that a list of all the items that had been taken away be made and

 5     that all the belongings should be returned to each person on the day when

 6     they are released or exchanged.  In any case, he spent a short time

 7     there.  Then he left, and they continued with their activities.

 8        Q.   Did Tolimir come on his own or was he with anyone during the time

 9     you saw him on your arrival at Rasadnik?

10        A.   Yes, there was some escort.  In addition to him, Milan Mijatovic

11     from Rogatica also came into the room.  I know him personally.  I'm not

12     sure whether he was a member of the escort or whether he had come there

13     independently.  Milan Mijatovic, called Zvijerica.

14        Q.   How many people were brought to the prison camp that day?

15        A.   Twenty-eight elderly, the 12 wounded, so a total of 40 people.

16        Q.   Do you know if there were any other prisoners who were already

17     held at this location?

18        A.   Yes.  We found a person from Ilijas, Cuprija [as interpreted].

19        Q.   Were you visited by the ICRC sometime after you arrived?

20        A.   Yes.  On the same day they visited us, they registered those who

21     had not been registered and their doctors came again on Monday.  I think

22     it was Friday when we were brought there, and the doctors came again on

23     Monday.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

25             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 78, line 20, I

Page 14815

 1     think that the witness's answer was not properly translated or not

 2     properly recorded.  So I would ask the Prosecutor to clarify the

 3     circumstances.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin.

 5             MR. ELDERKIN:

 6        Q.   I simply ask the same question again.  Sir, could you please tell

 7     us about the ICRC visit sometime after you arrived at Rasadnik camp.

 8     Indeed, since you can read English and can see perhaps the answer you've

 9     given around - at least on my screen - lines 18 through 21 of page 78.

10     And if there's anything to add to that, please, could you add it.

11        A.   Yes, I can add something to this.

12             On the arrival of the Red Cross, they brought with them and

13     distributed some medical materiel, something for personal hygiene, such

14     as tooth-brushes, brushes, towels for wiping.  But there was not

15     sufficient quantity.  So we cut them in half so that each prisoner would

16     have one, then some toilet paper.  And they also distributed forms which

17     we could sent to our families to inform them of our whereabouts; that is

18     to say, to get in touch with our families through the Red Cross.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the

21     Prosecutor mistaked [as interpreted] the line when he looked at the

22     transcript.  Page 78, line 20.  I'm -- I had in mind the name of a person

23     and where he is from.  I think the witness did not say that he was from

24     Ilijas but that his last name was similar to what is recorded in the

25     transcript.  So if we could please clarify this just for the sake of

Page 14816

 1     clarity of transcript.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, that would be helpful.

 3             MR. ELDERKIN:  I am afraid that we have both LiveNote and

 4     ring-tail running on slightly different line numbers.  So I apologise for

 5     picking out the wrong reference.

 6        Q.   Sir, you mentioned the name of a prisoner you said was from

 7     Ilijas.  And the name hasn't been picked up correctly in the transcript.

 8     Could you please say again his name and, if necessary, spell it.

 9        A.   Yes.  It was a person from Visegrad.  And his name was

10     Ilijas Cuprija.

11        Q.   I understand now.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. ELDERKIN:

14        Q.   Sir, you said that General Tolimir addressed the prisoners who

15     arrived in your group and said that you would be in the camp for, I

16     think, two or three days.  How long was your group of prisoners, in fact,

17     in this camp?

18        A.   We stayed in Rogatica for 172 days, and we waited for the

19     exchange for four days in Kula near Sarajevo.

20        Q.   During this time of your imprisonment, were there any beatings or

21     mistreatment of any prisoners?

22        A.   On the first day, on our arrivals, the beatings started but they

23     took place in the evening when the duty policemen stayed alone without

24     the camp warden and it relatively happened during the night.  But the

25     intensity depended on the policemen themselves; that is to say, who of

Page 14817

 1     them was on duty.  I can even tell you the first and last names of some

 2     of them, if needed.  Some groups of policemen or pairs of policemen,

 3     depending on what their shifts were, had more than decent attitude to all

 4     the prisoners and we could literally feel as at home; whereas, there were

 5     other groups who were terrible.

 6             Intensity of the beatings decreased perhaps after we had spent

 7     about ten days there, once we had the work obligation introduced when

 8     they started taking the prisoners to work.  Probably for the reason that

 9     if someone was beaten black and blue, he couldn't work, so then they

10     tried to leave everyone in good physical shape.

11        Q.   Sir, were all of the prisoners who came to the camp after the

12     fall of Zepa still with you when you left in January of 1996?

13        A.   All who had been brought there were exchanged in January 1996,

14     expect for Esad Cocalic.  He was taken away one evening.  I cannot be

15     precise about the date, because this was along time ago.  One evening

16     around 10.00 p.m. the room in which is he was accommodated and so was I,

17     Petar Despot, who was the deputy camp warden, came to that room and

18     called on him to come out.  He asked, Should I get ready?  And the answer

19     was, No, you don't need to.  You will go out just for a brief period.  He

20     didn't come back that night, and in the morning when we got up to do our

21     everyday duties, each man to his own tasks, the same Petar told us, Esad

22     is happy.  He has been exchanged; that is to say, his relative from Libya

23     who was temporarily working in Libya allegedly paid for him, paid a

24     ransom and he was released.  Everyone else who had been brought that day

25     was exchanged on the 19th of January, 1996.

Page 14818

 1        Q.   Did any other prisoners arrive in the camp during the time you

 2     were staying there?  People either you saw personally or people you

 3     learnt arrived in the camp.

 4        A.   It was like this:  Huso Cocalic was brought a day after us.  He

 5     was exchanged when we were.  I cannot be precise whether it was a day or

 6     two later, after our arrival.  Hamdija Torlak was also brought there.  So

 7     was Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric.  Hamdija was exchanged together with

 8     us.  As for Amir and Mehmed, I didn't know anything until a year or two

 9     ago when their bodies were exhumed in the area of Ragolavi [phoen] near

10     Rogatica.

11             In the meantime, they brought more people to one room, which we

12     called the notorious room.  But I cannot be precise.  I do not know who

13     was brought there.  I can just be precise about the number of people,

14     because we knew how many meals they were taking upstairs, whether those

15     were breakfast, lunches or dinner.  This is how we could judge how many

16     people were there.  But who exactly was there, and how for long they were

17     kept, this is something I don't know.

18        Q.   Did you ever learn of a prisoner called Mujo Hodzic?

19        A.   Yes, one of the prisons who were exchanged from the same room

20     told me that.  Mujo Hodzic and Mujo Paraganlija, were kept in that room

21     for a while.  They were taken away one night, but where, this is

22     something he didn't know, and neither do I.

23        Q.   What were the nationalities of those two men, Mujo Hodzic and

24     Mujo Paraganlija?

25        A.   Muslims.

Page 14819

 1        Q.   Tell us what you know about each of them.  First of all,

 2     Mujo Hodzic, how old was he and where was he from?

 3        A.   I can suppose that he was probably born around 1950, I'm not

 4     sure.  He could have been a year or two younger or older.  And he used to

 5     live in the village of Osovo, a dozen kilometres from Rogatica, on the

 6     Rogatica-Borike road.  He was a refugee throughout the war in Zepa.  And

 7     as for the circumstances under which he was taken prisoner, and where,

 8     I'm not familiar about that.

 9        Q.   How about Mujo Paraganlija?

10        A.   Mujo Paraganlija was younger.  He could have been born in 1966 or

11     1967.  He was single, from Zepa or more specifically, from the village of

12     Slap on the banks of the Drina.  Once again, I don't know how and where

13     he had been taken prisoner.

14        Q.   Were all the prisoners you encountered, or knew of, Muslims or

15     were there any Serb prisoners?

16        A.   They were all Muslims.  There was not a single Serb.

17        Q.   Can you describe the accommodation for the prisoners?

18        A.   As General Tolimir ordered them to separate the elderly from the

19     wounded, the elderly men were held in the biggest room in the facility,

20     and I think it was a mess for the labourers from the farm.  And we, the

21     wounded, were accommodated in two offices which could have been between

22     30 to 40 square metres, both of these offices together.

23        Q.   Do you remember the numbers of prisoners who were accommodated in

24     each of the rooms?

25        A.   I think that there were seven in one, ten in another, and the

Page 14820

 1     others were in the biggest room, the elderly.

 2        Q.   I'd like to look at one document, I think, before we finish for

 3     the evening, which is Exhibit P1434.

 4             Sir, while this is coming up on the screen, this is a VRS

 5     document sent, as you'll see from the Rogatica Brigade or 1st Podrinje

 6     Light Infantry Brigade Command on the 30th of July, 1995.  And I'd ask

 7     once it is up on the screen to go, please, to the last page so that we

 8     can see the signature block.

 9             We can see that it is signed with the following words:

10             "By authorisation from General Tolimir, chief of OBP,

11     Captain Zoran Carkic."

12             I'll start by asking you if you know who was

13     Captain Zoran Carkic?

14        A.   Yes.  Zoran Carkic was the camp warden.  Oh, no, Zoran Neskovic

15     was the camp warden.  And Zoran Carkic was, I think, in charge of certain

16     duties within the security organs of the Army of Republika Srpska

17     because he visited us and he took statements from us at the camp.

18        Q.   Did he take any statement from you?

19        A.   He didn't take statements from all prisoners and all inmates.  He

20     selected several people that he conducted interviews with and took their

21     statements.

22        Q.   Were you one of those people from whom he took a statement, or

23     were you not selected?

24        A.   He did not select me and I didn't give him a statement.  I gave a

25     statement only to their inspector from the state security, or at least

Page 14821

 1     that was how he introduced himself, as an inspector of the state security

 2     of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   When was that, that you were interviewed by somebody who said

 4     they were from state security?

 5        A.   First week of September.  All the prisoners were processed at the

 6     time, and they all gave statements to inspectors of state security.

 7        Q.   What did they ask you about?

 8        A.   Mostly about the war activities in the Zepa zone.  But the

 9     emphasis was on the beginning of the war and Budicin Potok, where a

10     column of their army which was moving in the direction of Zloryrh had

11     been attacked.  The rest mainly came down to small scale smuggling and

12     black marketing in the area:  Who received goods in Zepa, from whom, how

13     much, and so on and so forth.

14        Q.   What did they want to know, if you remember, about this attack on

15     the column going towards Zloryrh?

16        A.   Mostly who participated in the attack; that is to say, who were

17     the men who had carried out the attack and so on.

18        Q.   If we could zoom out, please, so that we can stay on the same

19     page but see the paragraph block just above there.

20             Sir, if you can see just above the signature, there's text which

21     talks about a certain Lieutenant Matic and his involvement in searching

22     or robbing some Muslims.  Did you ever hear anything about that?

23        A.   The people who were taken off the penultimate convoy and who

24     spent the night in Tisca told us that, on that night, one Matic

25     practically robbed them and took away their money.  But I didn't see

Page 14822

 1     that, and I cannot confirm it 100 per cent.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  I see we're at 7.00, and I have a few more

 3     questions on this document.  But there's no harm in breaking.  I think we

 4     can pick it up anyway, because I need to look at the beginning of the

 5     document when I start tomorrow, if that suits Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, we must adjourn for the date.

 7             We will resume tomorrow in the morning at 9.00 in this courtroom,

 8     number III.  The Court Officer will assist you during the break.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We adjourn.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of May,

14                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.