1 Monday, 30 May 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and
6 to those who are listening to our procedures.
7 If there are no procedural matters, the witness should be brought
8 in, please.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Janc. Welcome back to the
11 courtroom. I have again to remind you that the affirmation to tell the
12 truth still applies.
13 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye is conducting his re-direct.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon to
17 you, Your Honours; good afternoon everyone.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
19 Q. And good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc. I have just a few topics
20 that I'd like to cover with you in the re-direct examination, following
21 the testimony on Thursday last.
22 Let me start, if I could, but putting up P170. This is your
23 report from 21 April 2010.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: And we'll need to go to page 5 in the English; 6
25 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. And what we have on the screen, and hopefully we'll have the
2 B/C/S up in a minute, is the third page of the tables you have concerning
3 the total numbers, as you've indicated have identified individuals. And
4 here we can see the numbers in two columns which represent the figures
5 that you obtained for March 2009 and February 2010, respectively.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should wait until the B/C/S
7 version is appearing on the screen. It's not there.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. Thanks.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this the right page you were asking for?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is Mr. President. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE:
13 Q. In these two columns, we can see the total figures that you have
14 represented here. On the left, would be the numbers that were -- that
15 you determined as of March 2009, and on the far right, the numbers you
16 determined as of February 2010.
17 Does that sound right?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. During the course of your cross-examination, you made reference
20 to identified individuals. And I just want to make sure that we're clear
21 on what that means in the context of your report.
22 So if you would, could you tell us what you mean when you say
23 "identified individuals" in the course of your testimony and also as
24 indicated in this report?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful if the relevant part could be
1 enlarged in both languages, especially in B/C/S.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, perhaps we go to second page of my report, and
3 you -- we can find the term of identified individual in a footnote
4 number 4. So it would be second page of my report. Actually, footnote
5 number 3, where I say that:
6 "Identified means an individual with a unique DNA profile whether
7 with or without a name."
8 So we can see the footnote number 3.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. Is that how you used the term during the course of your
11 testimony, during cross-examination and direct examination, for that
13 A. Yes, correct.
14 Q. You were asked at transcript page 14.683, I have here lines 21
15 through 14.684, line 10, by General Tolimir the following:
16 "Thank you, Mr. Janc, and all those 5.777," if we can go back to
17 pages 5 and 6, respectively, we'll see that number, "all those 5.777 that
18 were buried in graves, do you consider all of them as having been killed
19 outside of combat? Thank you."
20 And your answer was:
21 "Yes. I think that I already answered that most of them, if not
22 all of them, were, indeed, killed or executed. Why I am saying 'most, if
23 not all,' I can explain because here Glogova is the big issue because we
24 know that most of them there, again, are the victims from the Kravica
25 execution. Apart from that, we also know that some bodies were taken
1 from other locations which were picked up along the road, the
2 Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road. I think a victim testified here about this
3 procedure going on, and so those were also brought into the same grave
4 and for those victims which were, according to this individual, around 15
5 or 30 of them in total, we can't say if they were killed in combat or
6 were executed. That's why I'm saying most of them, if not all of them,
7 are victims of the execution in these graves -- in these mass graves."
8 Do you remember saying that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does this number, 5.777, also include, therefore, individuals
11 that were part of the surface remain totals that you found that you
12 considered to be victims of executions?
13 A. Are asking now specifically for these bodies which were picked up
14 along Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road or in general?
15 Q. In general.
16 A. No. Those are only victims from the graves. Those found on the
17 surface, we have another figure which is 703 which is the one figure
18 under this 5777 on my chart.
19 Q. Now the number that you have here, 703, does that include the
20 number of the total surface remains or surface remains cases or the total
21 number of identified individuals that were recovered from the surface?
22 A. This is the number for the total number of individuals
24 Q. So it doesn't -- does it include what you might consider a unique
25 DNA profile as you've indicated before, for which a name has not been yet
2 A. No. For surface remains -- remains, I didn't include the unique
4 Q. Okay. So this is just the people that have names that are
5 recovered from the surface, matched through DNA analysis; is that fair?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. You indicated at transcript page 14.687, and this was during your
8 discussion on cross-examination concerning surface remains recovered in
9 the Pobudje area. The question is as follows and then I'll give the
11 "Thank you. After this, I'm not sure at all what is in your
12 report and what is in Mr. Ruez's report, can you please tell us in one
13 sentence whether these 600 bodies were found, and, if not, how many of
14 the bodies examined by the Finnish team were found? Can you please tell
15 us the exact number. Thank you."
16 And you answer is:
17 "Okay. By the Finnish team, 30 bodies have been picked up,
18 collected from the ground in 1996. In addition, that same year around
19 250 bodies have been collected by the BH, so we have 300 bodies, or body
20 parts or whatever, so 300, throughout the year. So it means from 1996 up
21 until the end of 2009, additional surface remains were collected from
22 this area."
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down when reading.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, I'll do:
25 "... additional surface remains were collected from this area
1 and that's why in my report, the total number is 558 so far identified,
2 so it means the bodies which were collected from this area from 1996 up
3 until the end of 2009. When the Finnish team was there in 1996, only
4 about 300 bodies were collected at that time, so in addition, we now have
5 double number so because I already emphasised several times that this
6 number is growing over the years, so I hope I made myself much clearer
8 What I'd like to do is to go to - hopefully - the relevant page
9 in your report. Just a moment.
10 We're going to need to go to page 43 in the English, 60 in the
11 B/C/S, just to identify the section of the report we're talking about.
12 Q. What we have here is Appendix B to your report and you can see
13 that it's the -- the caption is it discusses the surface remains. You
14 have four categories and peers in the middle of the page, and we'll have
15 to go to the next page in the B/C/S to see them. You've identified the
16 Pobudje area, Baljkovica area, Snagovo area, and other areas.
17 If we go to the next page in English and we might have to go to
18 the next page in the B/C/S, I'm not sure just now. But we can see the
19 total number here of the 558. We'll go to the next page in the B/C/S,
20 page 62 for the record.
21 And you've indicated here these 558 individuals. Are these again
22 the total number of surface remain cases or the total number of
23 identified, meaning a name attached to the remains, surface remain cases?
24 A. These are again the total number of the identified individuals.
25 Q. And as of the writing of this report, how many surface-remain
1 cases identified or -- that is, DNA-identified with a name or without as
2 an individual DNA profiles had been obtained, how many cases were there
3 in total?
4 A. So you can find the figure one page before we have on the screen
5 now, and you will see that in total 961 surface remains cases were
6 collected so far.
7 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you, since you refer to it your
8 cross-examination, 65 ter 7413.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I think this might be an exhibit
10 that was not originally on the Prosecution's 65 ter list. It is, though,
11 the Finnish team report that Mr. Janc expressly referred to in his
13 I would move to add it at this time.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, any objections?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have not seen it,
16 so I don't know what I would object to, when I haven't seen it.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was if you have objection to add
18 this document to this -- the 65 ter exhibit list of the Prosecution so
19 that he can use it in the courtroom.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 But, as for objections, I cannot raise objections against
22 something I have never seen in my life, thank you, as there is no
23 translation into Serbian or anything.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it there is no objection and at the moment
25 we are not dealing with receiving it into evidence. It may be -- leave
1 is granted to add it to the 65 ter exhibit list.
2 Please continue, Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 We do not have a B/C/S translation of this document as yet. So
5 I'll read a bit of it into the record so General Tolimir can familiarise
6 himself with what it is or has at least a pretty basic understanding of
8 Q. Mr. Janc, first of all, do you recognise this report?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, it is entitled, "Report of the
11 Finnish Forensic Expert Team," and it is dated 8 July 1997.
12 Q. Mr. Janc, is this the report that you refer to during the course
13 of your testimony on Thursday last, the 26th?
14 A. Yes, correct. This is the one.
15 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next page, please, in the English.
16 I'm sorry, we'll go to the following page after this.
17 You will see in the next-to-last paragraph, let me just read
18 the last -- the third to last paragraph so General Tolimir has the sense
19 of what this is about.
20 The third last to paragraph reads:
21 "The Finnish ministry of foreign affairs was several times in
22 contact with Justice Richard Goldstone and Mr. Graham Blewitt of the ICTY
23 to inform the Tribunal of the results of the Finnish experts and to
24 co-ordinate with the Tribunal's own efforts to exhume mortal remains from
25 mass graves in the vicinity. It was not possible for the ICTY however to
1 send observer to follow the field-work of the Finnish expert team in
3 First, the reference here to Kravica, does this refer to the
4 Pobudje area that you were discussing during the cross-examination?
5 A. Yes, correct. This is area behind Kravica warehouse.
6 Q. In the following paragraph, that is the next to last, it says
7 that the 30 sets of human remains actually recovered in the field in 1996
8 proved somewhat less than the expected -- projected, I'm sorry, 40 to 60
9 bodies envisaged in the project plan of 30 May 1996. It should be
10 mentioned however that a number of the corpses sighted in the field had
11 to be left where they were, because of the adverse attitude of the Pale
13 Is this the 30 cases that you referred to during your
14 cross-examination on Thursday?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. Did you take this report into account and into consideration when
17 you arrived or determined the numbers -- the total number of surface
18 remains that you've indicated at?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would ask
21 Mr. Vanderpuye to clarify whether, on page 8 in line 24, 630, mortal
22 surface remains are mentioned or only 40. Thank you. Because is he
23 asking only about 40.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I do see that in the transcript and that
1 is a mistranscription. What the text reads is 40 to 60 bodies envisaged
2 in the project plan. 40 to 60.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
4 Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
5 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. I don't think I have an answer yet to my question, which is
8 whether or not you, Mr. Janc, took this report and these numbers into
9 consideration in developing your own report and your own analysis as to
10 the number of surface remains recovered as of 2010?
11 A. I haven't quoted this report into my report because what I was
12 taking into consideration and what numbers were used for my report were
13 simply the identified individuals which I could find on the ICMP
14 identification list. In addition to that, I also used the tables and
15 documents and information provided to me by the BiH commission on missing
16 person in relation to these surface remains. I have to admit that I read
17 this report for my first time just recently when this issue about what
18 Investigator Ruez testified here, and that's why I came across this
19 report and I also read this report and I found it that this report is not
20 contradicting my report at all.
21 Q. Do you know if this report or the activities of the Finnish
22 experts is referred to the BH documents that you relied on in your own
24 A. No, actually, it's not. And what they provided to me was just
25 the actual number on how many cases they have collected from the surface
1 and how many individuals have been identified so far. So just the
3 Q. All right. Let me show you then P20 --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, I would like to tender this
5 Finnish report.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see any objection. It will be marked for
7 identification, pending translation.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour 65 ter document 7413 shall be
9 assigned Exhibit P2244, marked for identification, pending translation.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. I'd like to show the
12 witness --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Can Mr. Vanderpuye please clarify whether this is a report from
16 the Pobudje area or from the Bare area, or the Finnish forensic experts
17 as they worked in both of these locations. So can he please specify from
18 which one this is.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. What I read into the
21 record before referred to the activities of the Finnish expert team in
22 Kravica. And this, I believe, the witness just testified, was the area
23 behind the Kravica -- or behind Kravica which he has indicated as
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I asked to show the witness P2076, 2076.
2 Q. And while that is loading, just let me ask this. You were asked
3 or do you remember being asked at page 14688 through 14689 questions
4 concerning the estimate, as you mentioned, or, rather, the number
5 provided by Jean-Rene Ruez during his testimony on 14th March 2000 of
6 about 600 bodies recovered from this area? Surface remains, I mean.
7 A. Yes, I do remember these questions.
8 THE ACCUSED: Please.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Vanderpuye please say for
11 the record which area this concerns, because it is indefinite as it is.
12 Can we just specify geographically what were the surface remains that
13 Mr. Ruez was talking it.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you said "from this area."
15 What are you referring to?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, I think maybe it is best if I just read it
17 from the transcript and hopefully that will make it clearer.
18 At page 14.687, rather -86 in the middle of the page,
19 General Tolimir asked the following question:
20 "My question is the number which Mr. Ruez mentions is smaller for
21 80 than the one you mentioned in your report as the number of 688, so the
22 smaller number --or the number is smaller for 80. My question is this:
23 Did the persons whose mortal remains were found in the Bare village
24 identified by DNA analysis?
25 And then there's a long answer by Mr. Janc where he indicates
1 that the Bare area is the area behind Kravica warehouse, and he says:
2 "In that area, 558 individuals have been identified. The number
3 that you referred to as 688 is the total number of surface remains. But
4 as I discussed in my report, I emphasised that I categorise surface
5 remains in three different areas," and he says, "and in Pobudje area
6 there is only -- there is, so far, 558 individuals."
7 This all goes into a whole long discussion about the matter.
8 But does that help clarify the area to which these numbers relate
9 to you, Mr. Janc?
10 A. Yes, we are all the time talking about, as I referred to Pobudje
11 area, which is stretching from south -- from Bratunac up to
12 Konjevic Polje. These are the hills where the most surface remains have
13 been collected, including the area behind Kravica warehouse and Bare
15 Q. And is your understanding that Mr. Ruez's testimony concerning
16 the 600 bodies recovered from the surface back in 2000, his testimony was
17 in 2000 -- is it your understanding that that number relates to that
18 specific area or is it broader than that?
19 A. Yes, it is my understanding that he was referring to this area.
20 But for more than that, you would need to clarify directly with him, of
22 Q. All right. I think I was about to show you --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could Mr. Vanderpuye
25 clarify where the village of Bare is that Mr. Ruez referred to? Perhaps
1 he should clarify that with the witness first and then we'll see whether
2 it is in the general area of Brdo and Pobudje or on a specific location.
3 Mr. Ruez specified the satellite co-ordinates.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think that the area
6 that Mr. Janc is referring to, as concerns Mr. Ruez's testimony, is clear
7 on the record. I asked him specifically what is the area of -- or where
8 is Bare village and he described it for the record, so I don't see any
9 need for further clarification.
10 If General Tolimir wants to explore the satellite co-ordinates or
11 GPS co-ordinates with Mr. Janc, I think that is appropriate. If he wants
12 to do that with leave of the Court, but I just don't see where that fits
13 in, in terms of clarifying the record for the purposes of re-direct
15 I should point out that the area, and concerning Mr. Ruez's
16 testimony, in particular, that was brought out just about a year ago when
17 Mr. Tolimir testified -- Tolimir began his cross-examination of Mr. Janc
18 and again on Thursday. So if there's any ambiguity as to that area, I
19 think Mr. Janc's answer just a moment ago makes it quite clear what he is
20 talking about and what he understands Mr. Ruez's testimony to refer to.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you had the opportunity to put your
22 questions to the witness during the course of the cross-examination. Now
23 Mr. Vanderpuye is conducting his re-examination.
24 Please continue.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during my
3 examination, I said that this amounted to a revision of Mr. Ruez's
4 testimony. It now turns out that the village is somewhere up in the
5 mountains, but Ruez said it was precisely in the village of Bare. I
6 simply wanted him to clarify that with the witness, where the village of
7 Bare is. Otherwise, we'll just be referring to a general area. If that
8 is of no interest to the Court, then I don't have an interest in it
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the end of the day, we all have to review the
11 different testimonies of all the witnesses of Mr. Ruez, of Mr. Janc. Of
12 course, that is necessary.
13 Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Once again, I was just about to show the witness P2076.
16 All right. What we have here, Mr. Janc, is a document that was
17 provided by the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it concerns
18 information regarding surface remains. Do you recall referring to this
19 report -- or this document, I should say, during the course of your
20 testimony on Thursday?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Okay. And if we can go to the next page, please.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it's page 3 in the B/C/S. [Microphone
24 not activated]... English, perhaps.
25 Q. Okay. And what we have here is some figures concerning the
1 collection of surface remains. Could you just briefly, first of all,
2 confirm if this is the -- or some of the information that you relied on
3 in generating your own report concerning the recovery of surface remains?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And could you explain to us what this shows. We have here the
6 year of exhumation, which I think goes without saying, and then we have
7 instances of collection from the surface and then we have number of
8 identified persons collected from the surface. What is meant here by
9 instances of collection from the surface?
10 A. Yes, this is the table we were provided by the BiH commission on
11 missing persons, as you can see, at the end of 2007, when we requested if
12 the information on how many surface remains have been collected so far in
13 relation to Srebrenica events, and this is the table they provided. And
14 we can see in the first column on the left-hand side we have the year
15 within this -- that many surface remains have been collected. So -- and
16 then the second column, we have the number of cases, how many such body
17 parts have been collected from the ground. And the last column represent
18 how many individuals have been so far, at that time, already identified
19 out of the surface remains from the middle column. And we can see, for
20 example, in 1996, 213 surface remains case have been collected, and then
21 it goes on up until 2007. In total, 877 cases collected. In addition to
22 that, we can see the column Finnish team in 1996 collected 52 such cases.
23 And then we have the total number of how many surface remains case have
24 been so far collected before I referred to the number 961, which is also
25 included in my report, but that's because the number grew in 2008 and
1 2009 to that many surface remains cases collected from the ground.
2 Q. Where we say here, identified persons, what does that mean? Does
3 that mean DNA-identified? Does it mean they are identified forensically?
4 By parents? Things of that nature. Do you know, are you able to say?
5 A. For most of them, I can say that they were identified through DNA
6 identification by the ICMP. However, we have 35 cases -- or not cases
7 but 35 individuals which were identified before the ICMP commenced its
8 work in 2001 and these were also included into table and also included
9 into my report.
10 Q. So you maybe have to help me a little bit with my math. But as
11 of 2000 which is when Mr. Ruez testified, this would indicate that the
12 number of instances of the collection of surface remains adds up to about
13 627. Of those, 444 would have been identified by then. Does that seem,
14 first of all, approximately right to you; and, second of all, is that
15 consistent with Mr. Ruez's testimony as he gave it in 2000?
16 A. It is right in a way, I would say. Because -- why? Because we
17 have to, if you count all these surface remains cases collected in each
18 year, here is the total number for first five years from 1996 to 2000
19 would be, indeed, 627. The problem here is that we have 183 cases
20 collected in 2000, so it mean -- it means the whole year that many case
21 have been collected, and we would need to go, I think, further tables to
22 see how many cases have been collected up until the moment when Mr. Ruez
24 So it might be -- this number might be lower. In any case, it is
25 around 600 cases and also I would like to emphasise here that this is
1 related to all the areas not only Pobudje area, although I'm sure that
2 most of the cases which we can see here out of those 600 have been
3 collected in Pobudje area. There might be then additional cases
4 collected in Snagovo and Baljkovica area.
5 As for the identifications on the right-hand side, I would -- I
6 can't confirm that at the time when Mr. Ruez was testifying that we
7 already have had that many identifications. That many identifications
8 were concluded at the time when this report was provided to us by the BiH
9 authorities. It means by the end of 2007.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, can you help me? When you are
11 referring to the testimony of Mr. Janc [sic] in the year 2000 -- of
12 Mr. Ruez, sorry, in the year 2000, in which case was this testimony?
13 THE WITNESS: I think this was the case against General Krstic.
14 And if I'm not mistaken, it was in April of 2000.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be useful for the Defence
20 if Mr. Vanderpuye could clarify whether Mr. Ruez testified to all the
21 victims found following the Krstic testimony or whether he testified only
22 about the Bare location where he said that there were 627 cases of
23 surface collection. That would be important because Mr. Janc is now
24 addressing those surface collections in the -- through a number of years.
25 Therefore, we are unsure what this portion refers to specifically.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Mr. President, I think General Tolimir has gotten his answer in
4 more ways than one. One, Mr. Janc just testified that these numbers
5 include the total number of surface remains for more than just the area
6 of Bare which we've discussed. And he also testified before that that
7 his understanding of what Mr. Ruez was testifying about back in 2000
8 concerned the area of Bare which we've now defined through the testimony
9 of Mr. Janc as included in the area of Pobudje. So I don't -- I don't
10 know exactly what General Tolimir's objection is, if can you call it
11 that. I do have a document to show Mr. Janc which I think may help
12 clarify things somewhat but certainly will explain where these surface
13 remains were recovered over the course of the years.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Janc, I wonder if you can clarify for me. I'm getting
17 confused about surface remains and -- and victims of Srebrenica, as it
18 relates to combat activities or non-combat activities.
19 My question therefore is as follows: Do any of the surface
20 remains you referred to in your testimony form part of the missing
21 persons of Srebrenica, as a result of combat or non-combat? Can you make
22 that distinction for my understanding, please? Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 All the individuals which form part of my report as surface
25 remains are the victims of Srebrenica, which means that they are on a
1 missing list of Srebrenica.
2 So they went missing after the fall Srebrenica, all those 588
3 individuals from Pobudje area and also the others. So in total, 703,
4 including Zepa victims. So those were all on a missing list.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: Can you just explain further your missing lists.
6 Were they as a result of combat activities or other deaths?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
8 For most of them, we know they were found in mass graves, and
9 this is majority of them, in total 5.777 in my report. Then we have this
10 portion of 700 individuals which were found on the surface and which I
11 testified that for most of them, they were most probably killed in
12 combat. Some of them we know also died from different other sources.
13 Different other -- in different other circumstances, sorry. Like,
14 committed suicides, then they -- they were -- they died crossing the
15 minefields, for example, and, of course, we know also for some of them
16 that were executed, killed. So those found on surface would include
17 both: killed in combat and killed in other ways, illegally killed, and
18 also those committed suicide or died of different other sources,
19 different other -- from different other reasons, I mean.
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could Mr. Vanderpuye
23 clarify the following: In line 16, actually, page 16, line 18, he said
24 that Mr. Ruez had mentioned 627 persons collected in the area of Bare.
25 And we see that Mr. Janc mentioned only 213 irrespective of the area.
1 Ruez said that this was all done in Bare in 1996. I'm interested in how
2 this discrepancy can be explained by Mr. Vanderpuye and Mr. Janc. If it
3 is outside the scope of cross-examination, then they need not answer the
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think maybe there's
7 a translation issue or General Tolimir is not -- apprehended the issue.
8 The questions that I put to Mr. Janc are derived from
9 General Tolimir's questions concerning Mr. Ruez's testimony as to 600
10 individuals' surface remains that had been recovered. As we explored on
11 Thursday, Mr. Ruez testified in 2000. General Tolimir put a question to
12 Mr. Janc, suggesting that the number that Mr. Ruez referred to as 600 was
13 a number that he arrived at in 1996, to which I objected, because there
14 was nothing in the transcript, as put to Mr. Janc of Mr. Ruez's
15 testimony, suggesting that 600 surface remains were recovered in 1996.
16 In so far as his testimony occurred in 2000, and he said that 600 bodies
17 had been recovered, it seems reasonable to conclude that 600 bodies had
18 been recovered up until the time he had testified, in the area that
19 General Tolimir put to Mr. Janc as Bare in the form of his questions to
21 So this line of questioning on re-direct examination expands upon
22 the question of the number of individuals that were identified or
23 indicated by Mr. Ruez as Mr. Janc has -- and how those numbers are
24 reflected in Mr. Janc's report.
25 So the first question is: How many did Mr. Ruez indicate, which
1 Mr. Janc has answered; where did he indicate those people were found,
2 which Mr. Janc has answered; what documentation is there concerning those
3 individuals, which has been shown to Mr. Janc; whether or not Mr. Janc is
4 incorporated or reviewed those documents in the preparation of his own
5 report concerning those issues, which he has testified to; whether or not
6 the individuals that -- more than 600 individuals, the location where
7 they were recovered can be determined, which I'm just about to put to
8 him. All of these issues I think are relatively clear and flow directly
9 from the cross-examination of Mr. Janc on that number of individuals.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you satisfied by this very
11 precise and lengthy explanation?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am satisfied, Mr. President, when
13 I receive any explanation. But I would like to see the reference where
14 Mr. Ruez apparently testified about all the victims that were identified
15 before he testified here in 2010 or at the time when he testified in the
16 Krstic case.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment we have the Witness Janc and not
18 the Witness Ruez in the courtroom. Mr. Vanderpuye was referring to the
19 testimony of 2010 in the Krstic trial and not in this courtroom last
20 year. I think he made it very clear.
21 Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I was just about to
23 show Mr. Janc 65 ter 2769A. This is the attachment to -- which is
24 referred to in P2076, which I've just shown the witness. Oh. I will
25 also need to add that, if I may, to the Prosecution's 65 ter list. It
1 was not part of the original list but as you can see it is directly
2 related to the document that I showed Mr. Janc, which is already
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see any objection. And I think that
5 would clarify even more to have this added to the 65 ter exhibit list.
6 Leave is granted, Mr. Vanderpuye. Please carry on.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I would
8 note that we don't have yet an English translation of this document. But
9 I think Mr. Janc may be able to get us through it.
10 Q. And what this shows, Mr. Janc, first of all, can you tell us, do
11 you recognise this?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And what does it show?
14 A. This is a table which was provided along with the table we have
15 just seen before by the BiH Federal Commission on Missing Persons at the
16 end of 2007. And this is just the breakdown per year. So we can see
17 here which exhumations and when and where have been conducted within the
18 particular period of time, or on specific date. As we can see, the
19 second column, it says the date of the exhumation conducted, and then we
20 have the third column, we have the place of the exhumation. And the
21 fourth column, it says the municipality of exhumation. And then we have
22 the fifth column where it says the code, the exhumation code which was
23 assigned to particular body, body part, or anything.
24 And then later we have the columns where we have different
25 numbers how many such individuals cases have been collected from the
1 ground. And this is -- this is all relate to surface remains which were
2 collected in that area. And we can see from the third column that most
3 of them have been collected from Pobudje area. And also the commission
4 is referring to these bodies as being collected from Pobudje, although we
5 can see the exact site was Kamenica.
6 Q. Okay. And this is for -- what we're looking at now is ERN
7 page X018968 [sic] and that refers to the year 1996 and indicates a total
8 number, I believe, of 213 plus 52, from the Finnish team. And for a
9 total of 265; is that right?
10 A. Yes, that's correct. On this table, we can see the last column
11 is referring to Finnish team exhumation with a code-name PM, and those 52
12 cases were collected by Finnish team.
13 Q. Let's just go over to the next page --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, we should correct the
15 transcript. The ERN number was wrongly recorded. It should be X0189698.
16 Thank you.
17 Please continue.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's take a look at the next page, 1997.
19 Q. And here we have similar information. If we go to the following
20 page, we should see the total. Here it says 159, is that right,
22 A. Correct, 159 cases were collected from the surface in 1997.
23 Q. And that should correspond, indeed, to P2076, page 3, showing the
24 table in English and the second page in the B/C/S which records the same
25 number. And let's look at the next page, X018971 [sic]. And this is for
1 1998. And records 30 exhumations there; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, correct. And we can see from this table that all those
3 exhumed are collected on a surface in 1998 were collected from Zvornik
4 area. So those were not collected in Pobudje area.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again this is an mistake with the number.
6 Mr. Vanderpuye, you misspoke. The last figure should be 9701. The 0 was
8 Please carry on.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. I'm not going to go through all of them, but have you had a
11 chance to check this against the table that I showed you, P2076 and can
12 you confirm that the numbers and totals reflected in this attachment
13 appear in that table.
14 A. Yes, I have had the chance to review all these tables and I can
15 confirm that they correspond.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender 65 ter 2769A.
17 I wondered, and this may be a question for the Registrar, whether it
18 could be admitted under a sub-designation of P2076 because it is -- it is
19 essentially an attachment to that document. It might be easier to find
20 later on.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wanted to put this question to you, why you
22 didn't tendered it with the original document?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's a good question. I think the answer to
24 that is that the original document came in as a 92 ter or 92 bis exhibit,
25 so it had already been premarked or provisionally admitted and was
1 subsequently admitted with the testimony of Ewa Tabeau. And only part of
2 it had been used with her in her prior testimony and not the full
3 document which is why only part of it came in.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These sheets, the attachment to P2076, will be
6 marked for identification, pending translation, as P2076A.
7 Please carry on.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
9 Q. Just to follow up on a question that was put to you by the
10 Honourable Judge Nyambe, you were asked a question also by
11 General Tolimir concerning how you characterise victims in your report.
12 And what I wanted to ask you was: In relation to the surface remains
13 that were recovered, were any of these surface remains, as per your
14 report, or in your -- or, in your view, did you consider them as
15 non-combat-related casualties, that is, the victims of executions the
16 same as some individuals or all of the individuals, you've said, that
17 were recovered from the mass graves?
18 A. Yes, correct. Some of them were executed. We have evidence on
19 them being executed.
20 Q. Just so that we're clear, the transcript reference for
21 Judge Nyambe's question, I don't have but I think we can all remember
22 that; but for General Tolimir's questions on cross-examination, the
23 transcript is page 14.677 and lines 14 through 22. In particular, he
24 asked you whether or not your report was neutral in the sense of
25 describing whether a person was killed in combat or was killed in an
1 unlawful way. And in response, you indicated that your report presents
2 the numbers of individuals identified from the graves, individual graves
3 found on the surface, and you said you thought you were clear in your
4 testimony that you confined combat casualties within the category of
5 surface remains.
6 So my question is really just the inverse of that, whether you
7 can find non-combat execution-type casualties within the surface remains.
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. And, in particular, can you tell us to the best of your
10 recollection whether or not you included the remains found in
11 Godinjske Bare related to Trnovo as non-combat-related remains, victims?
12 A. They are in a section others in my report, and we all know that
13 from the video on their execution that they were killed.
14 Q. And what about executions near Snagovo? Did you include those
15 individuals among the victims recovered from the surface?
16 A. Yes. I think those individuals are found -- actually, there is
17 one individual, if I'm not mistaken, which was found in Tisova Kosa which
18 was found on the surface and we know that he was executed. Another one
19 was being found in a grave which is referred to in my report as Brezeva
21 Q. All right. Well, I was going to ask you about Tisova Kosa,
22 which, as you know, in the investigation relates to what's referred to as
23 Nezuk executions. But referring more specifically to the Snagovo
24 executions, do you recall what grave-sites or what locations were
25 associated with the executions of these men, approximately six of them?
1 A. I think I was asked this question already before, and I still
2 don't know the answer. So I don't know, actually.
3 Q. All right.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
6 Just now, in page 26, line 19 to 21, in answer to
7 Mr. Vanderpuye's question, you have said as follows:
8 "I think those individuals are found -- actually, there is one
9 individual, if I'm not mistaken. ... which was found on the surface and
10 we know that he was executed."
11 Now how do you distinguish this individual, who I understand is
12 found on the surface, among other surface remains as having been executed
13 as opposed to maybe having died of -- having died in combat or suicide or
14 by walking over a land-mine? How are you able to distinguish this
15 particular individual as having been executed?
16 Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. For this particular individual,
18 we have a statement. And also it's evidence in this case, because
19 survive of this execution testified here, and he named this individual as
20 being executed next to him. And he was found on the surface.
21 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned that you had some information concerning an
25 individual that was executed in the area of Tisova Kosa, as testimony in
1 this case. Are you aware of any other testimony that was given with
2 respect to this issue in this or in the Popovic case?
3 A. I think in relation to this issue, to this same execution, we
4 have two survivors and both testified in these two cases. For one, I am
5 sure in this case. I mean, in Tolimir trial. The other, I think,
6 testified in Popovic trial.
7 Q. What I'd like to show you -- well, let me ask you this before I
9 Did you consider the testimony of these two individuals in your
10 characterisation of the surface remains recovered from Tisova Kosa as of
11 non-combat -- as non-combat-related casualties?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Then let me show you 65 ter 6208. This is the --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. What I'm showing you is the testimony of PW-139 in the Popovic
17 case. And the date of the testimony is the 6th and 7th November 2006.
18 And I'd like to refer you first to page 3672. Should be page 16 or so of
19 this -- it is.
20 And here you can see at lines -- just through line 15, that what
21 this individual was talking about is about -- an event that occurred on
22 18th or 19th of July, 1995.
23 And if we go to the next page, 373 [sic], you will see at line --
24 at line 21, he is asked the question:
25 "May I stop you for a moment. Can I first [sic] ask you if you
1 know approximately where this happened?"
2 And he indicates the location of Tisova Kosa.
3 If we go to the next page -- at the bottom of this page we can
4 see the question:
5 "Is this the location you believe you were captured?"
6 And then we go to the next page, and he indicates that the area
7 is referred to as Baljkovica. And he says that it was mentioned on a
8 radio set the location Tisova Kosa, some 3 kilometres from Baljkovica.
9 If we go down to the bottom of this page, we'll see that it is in
10 private session. So I think we need to go into private session for a
11 moment, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 14764-14767 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has
22 nothing against admitting this PW- -- the protected witness, but it would
23 be better for us if he were to appear here as a witness.
24 And next, can Mr. Vanderpuye explain how were individual cases
25 from Tisova Kosa resolved, also in Baljkovica, independent cases of
1 execution which is, of course, good. But cases of 800, or even more,
2 dead about which I called in 1D777, 778, 780 and 782 have not been
3 investigated because 800 or more executed persons and their surface
4 remains are mentioned.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir, you may deal with that
6 during your Defence case.
7 Mr. Vanderpuye, please continue and try to conclude your
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 If we can go over a few minutes over, hopefully I will be able to
11 get done.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE:
14 Q. Mr. Janc, you were asked some questions about the Vragolovi
15 grave-site at page 14.724 of the transcript. And, in particular, you
16 were asked by General Tolimir whether the Vragolovi grave was a primary
17 or secondary site. And in your answer, you refer to a statement by
18 Eva Klonowski.
19 Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'd like to show you the statement by Eva Klonowski.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Going to be 65 ter 7411.
23 Mr. President, this is yet another document which was not on the
24 Prosecution's original 65 ter exhibit list, but, as can you see, it is
25 directly responsive to the issues that were raised during the
1 cross-examination concerning the Vragolovi grave-site.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, any objection to add this document
3 to the 65 ter exhibit list?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 We have no objections to any facts that would put us in a clearer
6 situation, all of us who are here in the courtroom. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 Leave is granted to add this document to the 65 ter exhibit list.
9 Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Here we can see the statement by Dr. Klonowski. The interview is
12 dated 17 February 2010. I'd like to go to page 3 in the English. It's
13 paragraph number 15.
14 And in paragraph 15, you can see here she indicates that this
15 was, in her opinion, a shallow primary grave, based on the position of
16 the bodies, and so forth. Their completeness. She also indicated that
17 if it was a secondary grave, unless the bodies were moved from the
18 primary grave within a couple of weeks they would not have been in an
19 anatomical order.
20 Did you consider this, which I can see was done shortly before
21 your report, but did you consider it in preparing your report?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And, in fact, did you refer to it specifically on page 30 of
24 Annex A of your report, concerning the Vragolovi grave-site?
25 A. Yes, I did refer to this statement.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many pages does this witness statement to the
4 OTP encompass?
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: The statement itself, Mr. President, is -- it's
6 two pages. With the cover page and the attachment, four. It has certain
7 attachments that are referenced specifically in it. And the total number
8 of pages is 105 pages, and that is because it attaches certain ICMP
9 records concerning the individuals recovered from the -- 43 pages, I'm
10 sorry. 43 pages. It attaches ICMP records concerning the DNA
11 identification of the individuals found in the grave, of certain
12 individuals found in the grave, as well as autopsy notes, notations. And
13 she specifically refers to these in paragraph 22 of the statement. She
14 characterised them as follows: Marked A is a sketch showing the position
15 of the bodies that were found in the grave that she refers to, marked --
16 I'm sorry, that's marked B. The sketch of the site is marked A, and the
17 documents regarding the bodies that were recovered from the site are C.
18 And those include autopsy notes, ICMP records and so forth.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I have a problem with this
20 procedure. To present a report -- in fact, a report by an expert witness
21 who will not testify in this trial, by showing it -- a part of it to this
22 witness, as a -- as an investigator of the OTP.
23 I'm not sure if this is the best way to introduce this report
24 into evidence.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would first say, Mr. President, that I don't
1 actually consider it to be a report but, in fact, a statement, but I know
2 the rule applies just the same. But, I would point out that what it also
3 shows is the reliability of Mr. Janc's report, and as well as
4 substantiations the conclusions that he draws in his report. In
5 particular, at page 30 of Annex A of his report, he says very
7 "According to the exhumation record and to forensic
8 anthropologist Eva Klonowski," giving the ERN of the document which I
9 have shown the witness and the Court who was present during the
10 exhumation, "... nine bodies were found inside the grave, DNA
11 examinations by ICMP of human remains located within the Vragolovi grave,
12 so far indicated the following numbers."
13 And he has here eight identified individuals of the nine bodies
14 that were recovered from the grave which is, of course, substantiated and
15 corroborated by the statement of Dr. Klonowski.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber should postpone a
17 decision on your move to admit it into evidence --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witnesses please slow down and pause
19 between question and answers for the benefit of the interpreters. Thank
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My apologies. We should postpone the decision of
22 the Chamber in relation of your move to admit this document into
23 evidence. We have to review it, the content, to review it and the
24 relation to the report of Mr. Janc. It was a very brief introduction,
25 and we should only marked for identification for the moment.
1 It will be marked for identification.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have just ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7411 shall be
6 assigned Exhibit P2246, marked for identification. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should come to an end.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. Let me just ask for
9 65 ter 06232.
10 Q. And while that is loading, let me just ask you very quickly,
11 Mr. Janc: In your report of April 2010, you indicated that eight out of
12 the nine individuals recovered from Vragolovi have been identified.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. To your knowledge, has that changed? Has the ninth person been
15 identified since your report?
16 A. Yes, the number is still the same.
17 Q. All right. Let me just show you what I have here as 65 ter 6232.
18 On May 18th 2010, during your cross-examination you were asked by
19 General Tolimir specifically this, "Do you consider" -- this is at
20 page 2026 of the transcript through 2027:
21 "Do you consider that the destruction of evidence, items found in
22 graves, would actually prevent," and this is how it is in the transcript,
23 "... prevent a super analysis or super expert report that would," and
24 then it's blank, "in order to check the findings of OTP experts?"
25 Your answer was:
1 "Not necessarily, because if they are well preserved, and most of
2 them are we well preserved, we have photographs of them and we have
3 descriptions, reports on them. I don't think that would necessarily be
4 the case. What I am showing you here is some photographs of ligatures."
5 And we can blow it up so he can see it a little bit better. Just
6 a few would be fine.
7 First of all, do you recognise what I'm showing you?
8 A. Yes, these are ligatures, photographs of ligatures which were
9 found in mass graves.
10 Q. And are these the photographs or some of the photographs you're
11 referring to when you say that we have taken photographs of items that
12 were found in the mass graves during the course of your
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this exhibit.
16 I have a second one which I'd like to show him.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, how many page?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's one page, but it features, as can you see,
19 a number of different or discrete photographs.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6232 shall be
22 assigned Exhibit P2247. Thank you.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 6233, as
24 well, please. 6233.
25 Q. Mr. Janc, do you recognise this exhibit?
1 A. Yes, these are photographs of blindfolds found in these mass
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd also like to tend this exhibit,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6233 shall be
8 assigned Exhibit P2248. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Defence would like to know whether
11 the two exhibits that were just admitted are in any relation to
12 Vragolovi. Because it seems that we have some reference to other
13 grave-sites and there is no mention of Vragolovi.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Actually, those exhibits speak to all of the items and --
17 recovered from all graves, in response to the cross-examination that was
18 conducted I think I said 18th May 2010, and I indicated the transcript
20 Q. Last issue, Mr. Janc, and hopefully we can do this extremely
21 fast, is: General Tolimir asked you on page 14727 through 14728 of the
22 transcript in these proceedings on Thursday last, the following:
23 "Was it possible in conversations with prisoners who were in
24 Rogatica to find out who disappeared from the group of prisoners and why
25 they didn't appear" -- and then there's some colloquy between
1 Mr. President, the interpreter, and the accused, but he says:
2 "... why they didn't appear at the exchange at the same time as
3 the others who were with them at the Rasadnik prison?"
4 And your answer was that:
5 "Yes, there were several statements, not only of Mr. Torlak, also
6 other individuals imprisoned in Rasadnik prison and later on exchanged
7 were testifying or talking about these individuals."
8 And these are individuals in the Vragolovi grave; is that right,
9 Mr. Janc?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. And:
12 "Some of them also testified or stated that they were maltreated
13 and beaten badly and they concluded that they were killed. Nobody
14 actually has seen that, when and how they were killed, but they never
15 appeared back again and they were never exchanged. And now we know where
16 they were found. And from the exhumation records we can see that they
17 were killed, executed."
18 I have two questions for you. One is: During the course of your
19 investigations, have you learned whether or not the Main Staff of the VRS
20 was involved in the exchange process?
21 A. Yes. The Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, yes.
22 Q. And do you know if General Tolimir is indicated as having been so
24 A. Yes, correct. I have -- I have reviewed several documents so far
25 with Tolimir's name on it and in relation to these issues, to the
1 exchange of prisoners of war.
2 Q. In your review of these documents, did you ever come across a
3 document indicating that there were certain prisoners who could be banned
4 from being exchanged?
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, this
7 is beyond the scope of cross-examination. Second of all, perhaps we
8 should see where the reference is where Mr. Tolimir is referred to
9 concerning the detainees from Olovo [phoen] since the witness said he saw
10 several such documents. Perhaps he could specify at least one.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, can you give us a reference?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm going to show Mr. Janc a document from --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, a reference from the cross-examination.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I can. He was asked, and this is at
15 page 14727, specifically:
16 "Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. You said just now that Torlak said
17 that this and this other person said that.
18 "Was it possible in conversation with the prisoners who ... in
19 Rogatica to find out who disappeared from the group of prisoners and
20 why," continuing from another point in the transcript, "why they didn't
21 appear at the exchange at the same time as the others who were with them
22 at the Rasadnik prison?"
23 So my question to Mr. Janc is first: Does he know whether or not
24 the Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, because the question
25 was about the exchange of these prisoners.
1 The second question is whether or not the investigation has -- he
2 has learned in his capacity as an investigator in this case whether or
3 not General Tolimir, himself, was involved in that exchange process. And
4 the third thing I want to ask is about a document.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you satisfied?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not. Because
7 no document is shown which would tell us that I participated in the
8 exchange process. It was only stated but, we need to see a document
9 which makes direct reference to me as having participated.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first request was given by Mr. Vanderpuye,
11 the reference to the part of the cross-examination. In relation to this
12 specific question about the knowledge of Mr. Janc, I would agree with
13 Mr. Tolimir, to show a document would help to clarify the situation.
14 Otherwise, he is not the right witness to testify about these possible
16 We are at the end of the tapes for the first session. We
17 extended the first hearing by 20 minutes already. We should come to an
19 Do you have any more questions, Mr. Vanderpuye?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have two documents, precisely the type of
21 documents that you'd like to see.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not possible before the break.
23 We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 4.35.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 4.04 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.38 p.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I come back to the question of
4 the -- one document we have received but only some pages of a transcript,
5 the testimony of the witness. I would like to ask the Prosecution to
6 upload these pages into e-court so that we can design the specific P
7 number to that part of the transcript. You may use other parts with
8 other witnesses, but, otherwise, it is a little bit tricky to have it
9 confidential only in relation to this part.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. We will do that.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If fact, this relates to 65 ter 06208, especially
12 the pages 3672 through 3679. And the Registry has already assigned the
13 number P2245, under seal, to this exhibit.
14 Please continue, and I would kindly ask you to conclude as soon
15 as possible.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I will.
17 I have two documents I'd like to show Mr. Janc, and I'll show
18 them both and then I'll ask him just a question or two after.
19 The first is 65 ter 3640.
20 Q. What we have here, Mr. Janc, as you can see, is a document from
21 the security and intelligence administration from 29 May 1993. And it
22 concerns the prisoner exchange, and it says commission work, prisoner
23 exchange, commission's work.
24 If we go to the last page of this document, page 2 in English, I
25 believe, and it's page 2 in B/C/S, too. You can see that it is from
1 General Tolimir. I indicated this is from 29 May 1993. And what it
2 states is:
3 "In the future, all reports on the work of the commission POW
4 exchanges, lists of exchanged persons and persons offered for exchange
5 shall be sent by telegram to the Republika Srpska Main Staff."
6 And we see it's signed Chief Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.
7 I'd like to show the next document, if I may, Mr. President. And
8 that's 65 ter 4077.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not on the list of documents to be used
10 with this witness.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're correct, Mr. President. The reason I've
12 included it is because it is responsive directly to Mr. Tolimir's
13 objection or his concerns during the course of the re-direct examination.
14 Q. This document, you can see, is dated 3rd September 1995. And it
15 also concerns the exchange of prisoners and indicates that it is a
16 report. And it refers to requests made by the commanders of the 1 KK and
17 IVK, concerning the exchange of prisoners. And I'd like to take you to
18 page 4 of this document. Should be -- this is the correct page in B/C/S.
19 And here, we can see the second paragraph from the top which regards in
20 part that:
21 "The exchange commission chairmen must view the exchange proposal
22 integrally, as does the Main Staff of the VRS, since, so far, the
23 Main Staff has made the necessary number of prisoners available for the
24 corps commissions in circumstances where they did not have a sufficient
25 number of captured enemy soldiers to exchange for all the captured
1 members of their corps."
2 And then it says:
3 "Security organs and exchange commission chairmen must also avoid
4 using parents' bitterness because it is not possible to exchange
5 prisoners who have been in prison for quite some time, particularly
6 because the VRS Main Staff is not responsible for this situation, rather,
7 it is the result of the small number of enemy soldiers captured by our
9 If we go to the last page and on the bottom of the page in the
10 B/C/S, we can see that this comes from General Tolimir,
11 Assistant Commander.
12 I have two questions, Mr. Janc. The first is: Do these
13 documents show, as you've testified, the involvement of General Tolimir
14 and the Main Staff in the prisoner exchange process?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just have an
17 objection to the fact that Mr. Vanderpuye and the witness said that I
18 participated in the exchange of prisoners from Vragolovi. And I was not
19 in Republika Srpska even theoretically at the time, but I will not
20 testify. But, please, can Mr. Vanderpuye clarify whether a document from
21 1993 and a document about the exchange from 1995, which relate to the 1st
22 and 2nd Corps, can -- have to do with Vragolovi and the exchange which
23 took place in Vragolovi in January of 1996. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think my question
1 was very clear from the beginning, and I believe I asked it before we
2 broke, which was: In response to Mr. Tolimir's questioning of Mr. Janc
3 on cross-examination as to why it is that certain prisoners at Vragolovi
4 did not appear for exchange, I asked Mr. Janc if he was aware if the
5 Main Staff was involved in the exchange of prisoners and whether or not
6 General Tolimir was involved in the exchange of prisoners. And he
7 indicated that the answer was yes. That's the reason why I'm showing him
8 these documents, to confirm the basis of his knowledge or the source of
9 his information reaching that conclusion.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have some problem to understand why you are
11 putting these questions to Mr. Janc, as an investigator of the
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm putting them to Mr. Janc, Mr. President,
14 because General Tolimir put to Mr. Janc the question of why it is that
15 certain prisoners didn't show up for exchange. And that can be found in
16 the transcript at 14727 through 14728. Where he specifically asked him:
17 Was it possible -- was it possible to find out why they didn't appear at
18 the exchange at the same time as the others who were with them in the
19 Rasadnik prison.
20 So my question is whether or not Mr. Janc is aware if the
21 Main Staff was involved in the exchange process, I think is how I
22 characterised it almost verbatim, which doesn't necessarily have to do
23 with Rasadnik prison or Vragolovi grave, particularly, but with the
24 process of exchange of prisoners, and, by that, I mean all prisoners
25 which is what I think these documents demonstrate and I've put to
1 Mr. Janc.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, do you have any knowledge about that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm
4 that I have seen and reviewed these two documents along with many, many
5 others, which relate to the same topic and are signed by General Tolimir.
6 So I can say that he -- the Main Staff and, particularly,
7 General Tolimir was involved in this exchange process.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your knowledge is based on these documents that
9 we have seen today in the courtroom; correct?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Also on these two documents but not only on
11 these two documents. There are many, many others, especially from
12 December 1995 and January 1996.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you are referring to other documents, or do
14 you have other sources for this information?
15 THE WITNESS: I'm referring now mostly, and I think exclusively
16 to documents, yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would tender the
20 two documents I've shown Mr. Janc. If this is still -- if this is an
21 issue for the Court, I have other documents I can show him as well.
22 The two documents I showed were 65 ter 3640 and 4077,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any objections, Mr. Tolimir?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no objection, Mr. President.
1 I do not distance myself at all from any activities of the Main Staff.
2 I'm just saying that in January 1996 when the exchange about which the
3 witness was saying, that that is something I did not participate in.
4 This is why I requested that a document be shown which shows that I did
5 not take part in this.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As there is no objection, both documents will be
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3640 shall be
10 assigned Exhibit P2249. And the 65 ter document 4077 shall be assigned
11 Exhibit P2250. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I can show Mr. Janc
14 one other document at 4088 --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You wanted to show two documents. You have done
16 that already.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I have no problem resting at this
18 point, but I understand that General Tolimir has an issue as concerns his
19 involvement in the prisoner exchange process. Mr. Janc has referred to
20 documents from December of 1995, and I have one such document I can show
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's 65 ter 4088.
24 Q. This is a document, Mr. Janc, from 15 December 1995 also from the
25 Main Staff.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we go to the next page in the B/C/S, we will
2 see that this document is from General Tolimir.
3 And if we go to item number 1 on this document, on the first
4 page. Item number 1 is at the bottom, yeah.
5 Q. And it reads that --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there an English translation?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe there is. I'm looking at one, but I'm
8 not sure if it is uploaded.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told it was not uploaded.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I will read this part of the document, and maybe
11 we can marked for identification, pending translation.
12 It reads just above item number 1, it talks about the
13 implementation of an exchange. And then item 1 says:
14 "From 0800 hours on 16 December 1995, send lists of people from
15 our prisons whom we can offer to be exchanged to the Main Staff,
16 General Tolimir, personally."
17 Q. Again, Mr. Janc, my question is: Is this one of the documents
18 that you have relied on or that you have reviewed and/or relied on in
19 reaching the conclusion that you have concerning General Tolimir's
20 involvement in the prisoner exchange process?
21 A. Yes, exactly.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would tender this last exhibit.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No objection, Mr. Tolimir?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. No, Mr. President. I'm
25 just saying that I did not take part in the exchange on the 18th of
1 January, 1996, about which Mr. Vanderpuye has been talking. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Since there is, again, no objection, this will be
3 marked for identification, pending translation.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter document 4088 shall be
5 assigned Exhibit P2251, marked for identification, pending translation.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: That concludes my re-direct examination,
8 Mr. President. I appreciate your indulgence.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, you will be pleased to hear that this
11 concludes your testimony in this trial. You have been quite often in
12 this courtroom and in this trial testifying here. The Chamber would like
13 to thank you that you were able to come here and to provide us with your
15 Now you are free to return to your normal activities, and there
16 is no limitation of your contact to your colleagues in the OTP any
17 longer. Thank you very much.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is the next witness ready.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that he is ready, Mr. President.
22 There is one other issue, though; and that is, in relation to
23 Mr. Janc's testimony, we did also plan to call him in relation to some
24 intercept evidence which I think is also part of his 65 ter summary and
25 in the application that we had to re-call him, but we will have to
1 schedule that for some other time.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 The next witness should be brought in, please.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Elderkin. Welcome to the
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, good afternoon. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on
11 the card which is shown to you now.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: MEHO DZEBO
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
17 yourself comfortable.
18 Mr. Elderkin for the Prosecution is now conducting the
20 Mr. Elderkin.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
22 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
23 Q. Witness, good afternoon.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Now, sir, we've already met. My name is Rupert Elderkin. And as
1 we go through this examination, I'd ask that we both try and keep our
2 speaking speed slow enough for the interpreters to keep up with us, in
3 particular since I know that you understand English very well, but,
4 please, wait for the translation into your own language before you reply.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please say your name for the record.
7 A. My name is Meho Dzebo.
8 Q. When were you born?
9 A. 13th of July, 1962.
10 Q. Where were you born?
11 A. I was born in Zepa.
12 Q. What is your nationality?
13 A. Muslim.
14 Q. Where did you grow up?
15 A. I grew up in Zepa, my birth place.
16 Q. And did you, at some time, perform service with the JNA?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Please tell us when was that, and in what function you served.
19 A. I served in Zagreb from April 1982 until May 1983. And I served
20 the army as a military policeman.
21 Q. Did you remain on the reserve after completing your JNA service?
22 A. Yes. I was deployed to the reserve station of the police in
23 Rogatica and its department in Zepa.
24 Q. What was your profession before the war started?
25 A. I'm a tool and die maker by profession, and I worked on
1 maintaining machines at the Sjemec building timber factory in Rogatica.
2 Q. And were you living as well in Rogatica before the war?
3 A. Yes, I used to have a family house in Rogatica.
4 Q. Now, going to the beginning of the war time period, were you ever
5 mobilised --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you move on, I just want to know what is
7 your citizenship, of which state in the former Yugoslavia?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the outbreak of the war, I
9 was a citizen of Yugoslavia, and since the war, I have been a citizen of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Currently, I have dual citizenship. In addition to
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina citizenship, I also have the United States
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 Please continue, Mr. Elderkin.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Sir, talking now about the period at the beginning of the 1990s,
17 were you ever mobilised from the police reserve?
18 A. I was mobilised to the reserve police force on the
19 19th of September, 1991.
20 Q. What did that mobilisation involve?
21 A. It means that I was activated to the police station where I had
22 my war time deployment.
23 Q. Where was that?
24 A. That was in Zepa.
25 Q. How long did that period of mobilisation last?
1 A. It lasted up until the beginning of the war, but I was withdrawn
2 in January 1992, back to Rogatica, in order to man the composition of
3 their unit.
4 Q. After being withdrawn back to Rogatica, did you return to Zepa at
5 some point?
6 A. Yes, I returned to Zepa on the 21st of July, 1992, after the fall
7 of Rogatica, and after that part of Bosnia and Herzegovina was occupied.
8 Q. What were the circumstances of that move from Rogatica to Zepa?
9 Were you travelling on your own? Did you move with other people?
10 A. We travelled by groups. There would be groups of 20, 30, up to
11 50 people, and the people were withdrawing through the woods, to the free
12 territories which existed at the time, and that was the route.
13 Q. You said that Rogatica was occupied. Again, to be clear for the
14 record, occupied by whom?
15 A. The Army of Republika Srpska and the then-JNA occupied it.
16 Q. Who were the people in the groups that were withdrawing to Zepa?
17 A. That was mostly the Muslim population.
18 Q. When you went to Zepa, where did you go to live?
19 A. I went to my parents, and I spent the rest of the war in their
21 Q. Can you give us a basic description of where your parents' house
22 is in relation to the centre of Zepa town itself.
23 A. It is in a hamlet called Krnici [phoen], which is 4 kilometres to
24 the north of the centre of Zepa.
25 Q. Who was living in this house with you during the war time period?
1 A. My parents, myself with my wife and our two children, and my
2 younger brother with his wife.
3 Q. Did you participate in the defence of Zepa after you arrived in
5 A. Yes. Immediately in July 1992, when I arrived, I joined the army
6 or the then-Territorial Defence of Zepa, actually. And I remained with
7 them until the November of the same year.
8 After that, I was transferred again to the reserve police station
9 in Zepa, and I remained there until the end; that is to say, until the
10 fall of Zepa.
11 Q. Was there any reason for that transfer that you knew of?
12 A. Well, probably as my war time assignment was a position in the
13 reserve police station, that could have been the only reason for them to
14 transfer me back there once again.
15 Q. What was your role on the police reserve when you transferred
16 back to that, at the end of 1992?
17 A. Yes, until April 1993 -- from the moment of my return, until
18 April 1993 [as interpreted], I had the duties of a regular policeman.
19 And from April 1993, until July 1995, I worked at the crime prevention
20 department of the police as an assistant -- an assistant to the
21 inspectors who were working within this department.
22 Q. Please, could you tell us briefly what that role with the crime
23 prevention inspectors involved.
24 A. Well, as I was wounded, I was moving with difficulty, and I was
25 mostly in charge of administrative duties, such as taking statements from
1 citizens who had been brought in, making Official Notes, and that was it,
2 more or less.
3 Q. You just mentioned that you were wounded. Could you tell us the
4 circumstances in which you sustained this wound?
5 A. As we were leaving Rogatica after the occupation, I managed to
6 activate a land-mine, a trip mine, when we were leaving the town, and
7 these were the circumstances under which I was wounded.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. You're welcome.
10 Q. Where were you based as a police officer specifically? I know it
11 was in the Zepa enclave.
12 A. At the centre of Zepa.
13 Q. Was there a specific building that was the police building?
14 A. Yes. It was the building of the agricultural co-operative, and
15 in one room we were housed. And there was the Red Cross in another
16 building on the same floor [as interpreted]. And on the floor above us
17 was the army.
18 Q. Did you perform any policing duties at any other location, apart
19 from in this building in the centre of Zepa?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Did you wear a police uniform?
22 A. We had no uniforms. We worked in our civilian clothes.
23 Q. And were you armed?
24 A. Until the arrival of UNPROFOR in May 1993, we had weapons that
25 belonged to the reserve police force. After that, in May 1993, we handed
1 over our weapons to UNPROFOR.
2 Q. Were other men in the police or in the Bosnian Army armed even
3 after UNPROFOR arrived, to your knowledge?
4 A. People had kept some side-arms, those who managed to keep
5 something without handing it into UNPROFOR, but that was a very small
6 quantity. And these were mainly pistols and hunting guns.
7 Q. Did you ever hear anything about weapons being brought into the
8 enclave; for example, by way of helicopter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did you hear about that?
11 A. I'm not sure whether it was four or five helicopter flights by
12 which weapons were delivered to Zepa.
13 Q. I'd like to ask you now about the conditions in the Zepa enclave.
14 Can you please describe, as best you can, what the living
15 conditions were like throughout the war, if you go year by year? And I'm
16 particularly interested to hear about the food situation, medical care,
17 and safety and security for the population. So starting in 1992.
18 A. Yes. 1992 and up until the arrival of the UNPROFOR, that is to
19 say, up until May 1993, the situation was awful, beginning with the
20 security situation and managing to obtain food and medication and all
22 We got a lot of help from NATO aircraft during the time while
23 they provided deliveries of food. After the arrival of UNPROFOR, there
24 was quite enough food and medications.
25 And the security was at a much higher and better level, excluding
1 the last offensive and the fall of Zepa in July 1995.
2 Q. Can you give us a brief account, then, of the conditions in 1995?
3 Starting from the beginning of that year.
4 A. Well, until the beginning of the offensive, that is to say, until
5 mid-July 1995, everything was normal, like in 1994 and the latter half of
6 1993. There was sufficient food. There was no shelling, except of some
7 sporadic fire, which can be ascribed to the shifts of groups of soldiers
8 which were in certain localities on the hills surrounding Zepa. But
9 immediately before the offensive, perhaps a month before that, the food
10 convoys had been stopped, and after that, the offensive followed. From
11 all sides, from Radava in the north and then Godjenje in the west, and
12 Boksanica to the south, and from the east, from the left bank of Drina,
13 from the area of Rujista, there was non-stop shelling and shooting until
14 the very moment of the fall of the place.
15 Q. What areas were subject to the shelling that you've described in
16 the summer of 1995?
17 A. All the populated places were shelled, the entire populated
18 section of Zepa. The only parts that were spared were the facilities
19 where the Ukrainian Battalion was housed and everything else was shelled.
20 Q. Do you recall any particular incidents where specific buildings
21 were hit or where people were hurt or killed by the shelling?
22 A. There was a series of individual incidents when people were
23 killed by shelling. Practically in all the villages, they were killed by
24 shell fragments.
25 Q. Were these people who were killed, to your knowledge, soldiers or
1 were any of them civilians?
2 A. Mostly civilians inside the town. And practically all of the
3 able-bodied men were on defence lines.
4 Q. Did the population try to escape from this shelling?
5 A. Well, you see, most inhabitants had their own shelters which were
6 dug in the ground next to their houses. And if the shelling intensified,
7 people would flee with their children and enter these shelters.
8 Q. Since we have only talked about shelling in 1995, could you tell
9 us briefly if you recall any incidents of shelling from earlier in the
10 war, 1992 through to 1994?
11 A. Well, I said, 1992 was hellish in every sense of the word,
12 especially September 1992. That was the hardest month. And from the
13 direction of Radava, that is to say, from the north of the enclave, and
14 from Laze [phoen] and Borovac to the west, and in the Ribioc sector from
15 the direction of Borika from the south. The same offensive was repeated
16 in May, just before the arrival of UNPROFOR, from the same areas within
17 the enclave.
18 Q. You said there was an offensive in May just before the arrival of
19 UNPROFOR. Could you tell us which year that was? Again, to be clear for
20 the record?
21 A. 1993.
22 Q. During those periods of shelling, again the same questions, as I
23 asked in relation to 1995, do you recall if anyone was hurt or killed in
24 any shelling incidents; and, if so, were those soldiers or civilians?
25 A. At the very beginning of offensive was on Brezova Ravin where an
1 attack was conducted against a facility where a shop was accommodated
2 before the war. Refugees were living there. I'm not sure about the
3 numbers, but I think there were 10 to 12 persons. They all lost their
4 lives. Only one of them had been able-bodied. All the others were women
5 and children.
6 After that, and all-out invasion on Zepa began, and there were
7 people losing their lives in all parts of the territory, and that was
8 caused by shelling.
9 Q. And this incident on Brezova Ravin was that in 1992 or 1993?
10 A. No, that was the 3rd of May, 1993, in the early hours of the
11 morning. From the direction of Oblaci [phoen], they attacked
12 Brezova Ravan.
13 Q. I'll move to another subject.
14 During the war, was there any person or persons referred to in
15 Zepa as a hodza?
16 A. Yes, there were three such persons.
17 Q. Could you tell us their names, if you remember them, please.
18 A. Mehmed Hajric. Ramiz Dumanic. And Jusip Jusipovic.
19 Q. Did you know these men personally during the war, or have any
20 contact with them?
21 A. I met them during the war. I had not known any of them before
22 the war. All three were refugees. Jusif Jusipovic was not a certified
23 Imam, so to speak. He was still studying.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask the
1 Prosecutor to verify the spelling of these persons' names because what I
2 see in the transcript does not reflect what I heard, I believe.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, I think, a fair comment.
4 Mr. Elderkin.
5 MR. ELDERKIN:
6 Q. Sir, you've given us the names of three men. Could you please
7 spell them out, letter by letter, for the names of those three men.
8 A. Mehmet Hajric, Ramiz Dumanic, Jusif Jusipovic.
9 Q. Sir, the names that have appeared on the screen in front of you
10 showing the transcript, are those the correct spellings for these three
11 mens' names?
12 A. Mehmet is not spelled like this. It should D. It should end
13 with D, Mehmed.
14 As for Jusif. It should be U instead of I. And the same goes
15 for his last name. Instead of the first I, there should be a U.
16 Q. I think that's clear.
17 Sir, can you tell us about the duties that were performed by
18 these three men during the war?
19 A. They were the mosque Imams. They were at the helm of the Dzemat,
20 that is.
21 Q. Could you explain briefly what that means? It's not a term that
22 I think we've heard so far in this trial.
23 A. They were in charge of religious rituals performed in the mosque.
24 Q. What do you know about the background of Mr. Hajric before he
25 came to Zepa?
1 A. Not much. I know that he had worked in Podzeplje. His job there
2 was the same as the one he performed in Zepa during the war.
3 Q. How was the work shared between these three men?
4 A. It was probably their internal arrangement as to who would be in
5 charge of what ritual.
6 Q. Do you know what happened to each of these men when Zepa fell?
7 Starting, say, with the man you said was not yet qualified as an Imam,
8 Jusuf Jusupovic.
9 A. Yes. Together with a group of military able-bodied men, Jusuf
10 crossed over to free territory somewhere in or around Kladanj. He had
11 never returned to his Imam studies. He completed his training as a
12 policeman, and he is currently employed as one in Sarajevo where he
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The name is again incorrectly recorded. It is
15 Jusuf Jusupovic.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Jusupovic, I think.
18 MR. ELDERKIN:
19 Q. So you say that he was --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- with a group of military able-bodied men and they crossed into
22 free territory. Was this part of the evacuation process or were they
23 travelling on buses or how were they travelling?
24 A. No. They were on foot. Different groups organised themselves
25 and each of them looked for their own route in order to reach the free
1 territory controlled by the Army of BiH.
2 Q. Okay. So that's Mr. Jusupovic. How about Ramiz Dumanjic? I
3 hope I pronounced his name correctly.
4 A. Ramiz Dumanjic was on board of a bus, much like the rest of the
5 population. He was together with his wife and two children. He was in
6 Kakanj immediately following the war. But I wouldn't know where he
7 resides now.
8 Q. Do you know how it was possible for a man with wife and children
9 to leave Zepa on a bus during the evacuation?
10 A. On the first day of evacuation, it was easier to get out. There
11 were less checks, since on that day, the Zepa Brigade commander,
12 Avdo Palic, personally escorted the convoy up to Kladanj. All those who
13 managed to leave on that day, I can freely say, were lucky.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction: The witness
15 stated that there were three children. Mr. Dumanjic had three children,
16 not two.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, could you clarify that with the
18 witness again please.
19 MR. ELDERKIN:
20 Q. Sir, could you tell us again how many children Mr. Dumanjic had
21 when he left Zepa?
22 A. Three children, two daughters and a son.
23 Q. Sir, were where you and what were you doing in June and July 1995
24 before Zepa fell?
25 A. In the second half of June, my wounds became infected. I had
1 sustained them back in 1992. The infection was advanced and there was a
2 lot of puss. I spent a number of days in our outpatient clinic in Zepa
3 and they tried to surgically assist me. Once the offensive began, I
4 returned home in order to make room for those who were more seriously
5 wounded. That's when -- or, actually, it was in that place that I
6 awaited the end of the war or the fall of Zepa.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask you to clarify one sentence.
8 We heard your answer but it was not properly recorded. On page
9 63, line 25 and the next two lines, the sentence is not complete:
10 "There were less checks, since on that day the Zepa brigade
11 commander, Avdo Palic. Evacuate."
12 I think you should try to clarify this with the witness again,
14 MR. ELDERKIN:
15 Q. Sir, if you could again tell us how it was possible for
16 Mr. Dumanjic to leave Zepa on the first day of the evacuations. You
17 mentioned Avdo Palic in come context. If you could give that answer
18 again, please, since it is not clear on the record.
19 A. Yes. Once the agreement on the evacuation of population was
20 signed with the Serb side, it was arranged that the first convoy was to
21 be escorted by Avdo Palic, in order to indicate to the people how safe it
22 was to embark.
23 The first convoy went through without any problems. No one was
24 mistreated, provoked, or taken off the bus. All following convoys had
25 such events. In other words, people were being taken off buses.
1 Q. I believe that's clear on that question now.
2 Sir, can I return to your personal situation. Where were you
3 when you learnt that Zepa had fallen?
4 A. As I said, I was in my family home, that of my parents'.
5 Q. What day did you learn that Zepa had fallen?
6 A. One day before the evacuation. The first convoy left on Tuesday.
7 And Zepa had fallen on Monday. The first convoy left on Tuesday, which
8 was the 24th, or the 25th of July, 1995.
9 Q. And after you learnt that Zepa had fallen, did you remain at your
10 parents' house?
11 A. No, I did not. We went to the mountain that night. From up
12 there, we could see the first convoy leave, and on that same night, we
13 returned to the centre of Zepa, to see how the evacuation process
14 developed, in terms of evacuating the -- those who were wounded, elderly
15 and civilians. I joined those who were wounded, which were split -- who
16 were split in two groups. One group first left on the next day, and I
17 remained as part of the second. We were evacuated on the last day of
19 Q. Did you see any Serb soldiers or officers in Zepa during those
20 days when you were in Zepa town awaiting evacuation?
21 A. Yes. Wednesday and Thursday; that is to say, the last two days
22 of evacuation. That is when I saw General Tolimir, as well as Pecanac,
23 and some people escorting them. They were in that part where the
24 civilians awaited to be evacuated.
25 So there was a small group of soldiers who were with them,
1 perhaps five to six.
2 Q. You're giving a bit of detail in a relatively short answer.
3 Just taking your time, tell us about the time or times, when you
4 saw General Tolimir. And you've also mentioned someone called Pecanac,
5 so please also tell us about when you saw him.
6 A. The wounded, including myself, were placed in front of the old
7 house -- old school building. Those people I mentioned came with
8 Avdo Palic to the area, and this is also where the Ukrainian Battalion
9 was. I don't know whether Dr. Boro came with them or whether he arrived
10 at some later point. He checked all those wounded, made a new list, and
11 that list was actually used during the evacuation.
12 It was on Wednesday, in the morning; that is to say, the second
13 day of evacuation.
14 Q. At the time, did you know who Tolimir was?
15 A. No, I didn't know him personally. I don't know if it was
16 Commander Palic who told us that it was General Tolimir. In any case, I
17 didn't know him personally.
18 Q. How about this person Pecanac?
19 A. I think Avdo also told us his name. He was present until the
20 last convoy left Zepa. The last bus of the convoy was where the wounded
21 were, and he helped with that. In other words, he remained until
22 Thursday, the last day of evacuation.
23 Q. Again, just because it's not wholly clear from the answer as
24 interpreted in English, you said:
25 "Those people I mentioned came with Avdo Palic to the area."
1 When you say "those people came with Avdo Palic," do you mean the
2 two men we just mentioned, Tolimir and Pecanac, or do you mean some other
4 A. I had in mind Tolimir, Pecanac and those escorting them. He
5 returned from Kladanj on that day when he saw the convoy off. They came
6 together to the school compound.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, a correction for the transcript. Your
8 last question, Mr. Elderkin, was: Did you mean Tolimir, Pecanac or
9 others? Pecanac was left out.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed, I see. And thank you for spotting that,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.
13 MR. ELDERKIN:
14 Q. What were Tolimir, Pecanac and the other men you saw in the
15 escort doing, if anything, when you saw them?
16 A. They weren't doing anything. They came there with Avdo. They
17 probably had some talks with him, made some plans or arrangements. But
18 I'm not familiar with any of that.
19 Q. Apart from Avdo Palic, did you see any men from the
20 Bosnian Muslim Army down in Zepa town while you were there waiting to
22 A. As regards any army members, it was only Avdo Palic who was
23 present there at the time in the centre of Zepa, from where the
24 evacuation process took place.
25 Q. Do you know where other members of the army were at that time?
1 A. They were up in the mountains, to the north of the centre of
3 Q. Sir, what was the mood among the Muslim population in Zepa during
4 this period when you were down in Zepa town waiting to leave?
5 A. There was general panic and fear. People worried how things
6 would end. It was a state of total chaos.
7 Q. At that time, did people know anything about what had happened to
8 the men from Srebrenica?
9 A. Very little was known. There were only individual cases of
10 people who managed to reach Zepa from Srebrenica. They did tell some
11 things, but, in general terms, people didn't know the actual proportion
12 of what had taken place.
13 Q. And at that time, did you personally meet anyone who had come
14 from Srebrenica?
15 A. I did not. Not at that moment. But once we arrived in the camp,
16 I found Nedzad Kadric from Srebrenica. He retold his story concerning
18 Q. Please, could you tell us what was that story, as you remember
19 him telling you.
20 A. Yes. In his words, he managed to crawl out from under the bodies
21 of those who were executed somewhere in the area of Kravica, I believe.
22 He told us that two of his brothers were killed on the occasion, one of
23 whom was his twin brother, and the other one was younger than he was.
24 We didn't go into too much detail as to how and where he had been
1 Q. Did he have any injuries himself or did he manage to escape
3 A. Yes. He had two entry/exit wounds, one on his right leg, and the
4 other in the ribcage area.
5 Q. Sir, did you and your family feel free to choose whether to stay
6 in Zepa or to leave at the time when the VRS forces had arrived in the
8 A. To tell you the truth, no one even thought of staying because
9 people did not feel safe and were distrustful.
10 Q. And, in particular, for military-aged men, were they free to
11 choose to leave in the evacuation, to stay, or to make their own choices?
12 A. It is difficult to answer that question. Take my word for it
13 when I say that no one even thought about it. The only important thing
14 was to save your hide. No one even pondered staying.
15 Q. To go back very quickly to clear up one point in this account you
16 heard from Nedzad Kadric about him surviving from some kind of execution.
17 Did you learn anything about the numbers of people who had been
18 at that place and who had been subjected to that execution?
19 A. I don't recall him mentioning any specific numbers.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, if we're sticking now to the regular
21 schedule, it looks like it's the break time. And that would be a good
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, it is time for our second break. And we
24 will resume, quarter past 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Elderkin, please continue.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, thank you.
4 Q. Sir, we finished up just before the break by talking about the
5 atmosphere in Zepa during the evacuation, and we haven't yet covered your
6 own departure from Zepa.
7 So could you tell us how was it that you, as a military-aged man
8 at that time, were waiting to be evacuated from Zepa and were down in
9 Zepa town waiting to leave on the buses.
10 A. During the negotiations at Boksanica between the representatives
11 of Zepa and VRS representatives, it was agreed that the civilians and
12 wounded should be evacuated. I fell into the category of the wounded.
13 Q. Were you registered by any international organisation during that
14 period of time, before you left from Zepa?
15 A. Yes. Well, it can be qualified as a type of -- a trick. It
16 turned out that we were taken prisoner before we actually were. The ICRC
17 did, indeed, register us within the UN compound in Zepa.
18 Q. Do you know on what date they registered you?
19 A. The penultimate day of evacuation. I believe it was the 26th of
20 July, 1995.
21 Q. How many people from the ICRC did you see in Zepa at that time?
22 A. I'm not certain. Say, four or five people.
23 Q. Apart from registering sick and wounded people, did you see the
24 ICRC staff doing anything else in Zepa, around the time of the
1 A. No, they didn't do anything else.
2 Q. When did you finally leave Zepa?
3 A. On the last day of evacuation, on the 27th, Thursday, sometime in
4 the afternoon.
5 Q. You told us earlier about seeing Avdo Palic in the company of
6 General Tolimir and Pecanac. Did you see any of those three people again
7 after the time you described before you left Zepa?
8 A. Yes. From the UNPROFOR compound to the bus, we were personally
9 accompanied by Pecanac. Avdo Palic remained as the only inhabitant or
10 member of the Zepa Army within the UN or UNPROFOR compound. In front of
11 the school, a small tent was erected and he stayed there, sitting.
12 Q. You've referred to the UNPROFOR compound and to the school. Can
13 you clarify whether those are different places or the same place?
14 A. It's the same place.
15 Q. Was anyone with Avdo Palic when you saw him outside the compound
16 by this tent?
17 A. No. He remained seated alone in the tent.
18 Q. You said that you were escorted to a bus by Pecanac. Once you
19 got on this bus, where did you go?
20 A. We left Zepa, in the direction of Rogatica. All convoys left in
21 that direction, the ones that had left before ours.
22 Q. Who was on the bus with you?
23 A. There were 12 of us who were wounded or sick. The rest were
24 civilians, like women, children, and the elderly.
25 Q. Once you had left Zepa on the bus, where was the first place that
1 you stopped?
2 A. We stopped in the area of Boksanica first, at the check-point of
3 the Ukrainian battalion.
4 Q. How long were you stopped at that check-point?
5 A. We stayed until sometime around midnight; that is to say, the
6 whole afternoon until that midnight. Shortly after that, we went on
7 towards Kladanj.
8 Q. During the time the bus was stopped at Boksanica, tell us what
9 was happening. Take as much time as you need. That's a reasonably long
10 period of hours.
11 A. Us, the wounded, I think there were some French doctors who took
12 us out and bandaged our wounds in one of their APCs. We didn't know why
13 we stopped there, and I can't recall what time it was exactly. I know
14 that Rajko Kusic, the local commander, entered our bus. I don't know
15 whether he entered any other buses. He introduced himself as
16 Commander Kusic. He asked in a provocative manner where Avdo Palic was.
17 We remained silent. I can even quote what he said. He said, There he is
18 in Zepa shitting his pants. I personally killed him.
19 Sometime before evening, Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric came on
20 the bus. We mentioned him when we discussed the hodzas. They followed
21 the course of the evacuation from Zepa, made up lists, and who was on
22 what bus. They said that it was only to be a brief stop which was to be
23 resolved soon, and then we were supposed to carry on during the night.
24 I don't know why we were stopped at the time. I learned of the
25 reason when I met Mehmet and Amir in the camp. The Serb side sent Mehmet
1 to the mountain to negotiate with the army so that they would hand over
2 their weapons. They were also supposed to surrender. And all those who
3 broke the law and all those who were deemed as being involved in some
4 dirty business were to be prosecuted and the rest would be allowed to
5 leave the area unhindered. If they did not meet that request, they were
6 told that all those who were on the last convoy would be killed.
7 Just before midnight, he returned from the mountain and conveyed
8 the reply of those who were up on the mountain. They categorically
9 refused to surrender. Following that, we resumed our travel to Kladanj.
10 Q. You mentioned --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, sorry for interrupting you. I
12 think on page 73, line 2, an important part of that sentence was not
13 recorded. In relation to Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric. If I recall
14 correctly, the witness said they entered the bus. This was not
16 Can you clarify this with the witness again, please.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Of course, Mr. President.
18 Q. Sir, you began the part of your answer concerning seeing
19 Mr. Hajric and Imamovic by saying something about them, I think, getting
20 on the bus. Could you tell us just in physical terms what happened when
21 you saw them. What were they doing?
22 A. They simply got on the bus. They said that there was an obstacle
23 to be resolved and that we needn't be afraid. They didn't specify what
24 the obstacle or what the cause of the stop was.
25 Q. Are -- excuse me.
1 A. As I have said already, I only learned of the reason why we were
2 stopped when I arrived in Rogatica in the camp when I met the two of
3 them. It is only then that they explained the reasons why we were
5 Q. I believe that clears up the --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: -- transcript issue. So if I may continue,
8 Mr. President.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please go ahead.
10 MR. ELDERKIN:
11 Q. Sir, you mentioned Commander Kusic coming onto the bus while you
12 were stopped at Boksanica. While you were at that location, did you see
13 any other Serb soldiers or officers? Did anyone else from the Serb side
14 get on the bus while you were there, apart from Commander Kusic?
15 A. They were accompanied by one or two of his escorts. They didn't
16 say anything. As for whether they went on the other buses, that's
17 something I don't know. I didn't discuss it with anyone. No one else
18 entered our buses. Of course, there were other soldiers in the area
19 moving about, but no one approached us.
20 Q. You didn't see any generals, anyone higher in rank than
21 Commander Kusic, present at that location?
22 A. No, I didn't.
23 Q. Sir, let me refer briefly to a number of your prior statements
24 just to clarify a reference I understand you made to seeing
25 General Mladic at Boksanica.
1 Can you tell me whether you saw General Mladic at that location?
2 A. I don't remember I saw him then. I did see him a few times in
3 the camp where he visited while we were down there, but on that day, I do
4 not remember. Perhaps if it is in my statement, it's possible that it
5 was a mistake while it was being typed, but I don't remember seeing him
6 on that day.
7 Q. And, indeed, I can't now find the reference. I believe I may be
8 mistaken, so I should ask simply to leave that subject and move on.
9 So where did the bus go after leaving Boksanica?
10 A. After Boksanica, via Rogatica, in the direction of under --
11 Romanija, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, and in the direction of
13 Q. Where were you expecting the bus to take you and finally let you
15 A. Probably as it had been agreed. We all expected that they would
16 bring us to the free territory; that is to say, territory under the
17 control of the Army of BH, like all other convoys and other civilians who
18 were transported.
19 Q. Where did you, in fact, stop in that bus?
20 A. The first time we stopped and took a longer break in the early
21 hours of the morning, perhaps around 5.00 a.m. in Orlovske Luke area. I
22 remember, between a cafe restaurant to the left of the road from
23 Vlasenica to Kladanj which is called Uranak [phoen], so we had been
24 driving not long. I don't know the area very well. I'm not familiar
25 with it. But I heard from the people who were with us that this was
1 Tisca. And there was a school Tisca at the place where we had stopped,
2 and practically it was supposed to be the final destination on our way to
4 Q. And tell us what happened when the bus had stopped in this
5 location at Tisca?
6 A. Well, immediately after the bus stopped, an army officer,
7 probably a member of the military police, boarded. He had a white belt
8 and shoulder straps and he boarded the buses and he asked, Are the
9 wounded here? Someone replied that they were. He got off, and to the
10 right of the bus was General Tolimir standing. He gave him a paper of
11 the form at A4 and the officer returned with the very same paper. It was
12 the list of the wounded people. He did a roll-call. There were 12 of us
13 here but he had 13 names on the list, so there was Huso Devedzija, who
14 was missing. He asked what happened to him. No one knew. It was only
15 later that we learned that he left on the previous day with one of the
17 He order us to get off the bus and move into another one. The
18 other one was parked next to ours, but it was turned into the opposite
19 direction; that is to say, facing Vlasenica. We took our things. We
20 moved there. And perhaps half an hour or 20 minutes after that, they
21 brought another 28 elderly people to the same bus. They were aged
22 between 55 and 60. The bus then started in the direction of Vlasenica;
23 that is to say, the same road we had travelled, all the way to Rogatica.
24 Q. The 28 elderly people you mentioned being brought onto the second
25 bus that you had been transferred to, do you know where they had come
2 A. I was aware from the same convoy by which we had come, and the
3 others had been taken off the buses on the convoy that was travelling the
4 previous night and they spent the night there. They were waiting for us
5 so that we would all return together.
6 Q. You said you went all the way to Rogatica. Where did you go in
8 A. They first took us to the southern part of the town where the bus
9 station is located. We spent perhaps 15 to 20 minutes there, and then we
10 returned through the town to the northern part, where we were
11 accommodated at the administrative building of the agricultural
12 co-operative called Rasadnik.
13 Q. Tell us what happened when you first arrived at that location,
15 A. They took us out of the bus, lined us up, they began to search
16 us. They searched through our personal belongings and searched our
17 bodies in the typical way that the police conducts those searches. They
18 perhaps managed to search three or four men, and then General Tolimir
19 came again and told them or ordered them, as you like, to stop that, and
20 let them go inside, into the building. They let us into the biggest room
21 in this building and he also entered it. He said, It is true that we
22 have approved of your evacuation and allowed it, but it was on condition
23 that I believe 48 Serbian prisoners be released at the Dubrava airport
24 near Tuzla. Your side has not honoured this, and we were forced to keep
25 you. Don't worry, this will last two or three days and then it will be
2 After that, he ordered that the wounded be separated from the
3 elderly persons to a separate room. Once the search was completed, he
4 ordered that a list of all the items that had been taken away be made and
5 that all the belongings should be returned to each person on the day when
6 they are released or exchanged. In any case, he spent a short time
7 there. Then he left, and they continued with their activities.
8 Q. Did Tolimir come on his own or was he with anyone during the time
9 you saw him on your arrival at Rasadnik?
10 A. Yes, there was some escort. In addition to him, Milan Mijatovic
11 from Rogatica also came into the room. I know him personally. I'm not
12 sure whether he was a member of the escort or whether he had come there
13 independently. Milan Mijatovic, called Zvijerica.
14 Q. How many people were brought to the prison camp that day?
15 A. Twenty-eight elderly, the 12 wounded, so a total of 40 people.
16 Q. Do you know if there were any other prisoners who were already
17 held at this location?
18 A. Yes. We found a person from Ilijas, Cuprija [as interpreted].
19 Q. Were you visited by the ICRC sometime after you arrived?
20 A. Yes. On the same day they visited us, they registered those who
21 had not been registered and their doctors came again on Monday. I think
22 it was Friday when we were brought there, and the doctors came again on
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 78, line 20, I
1 think that the witness's answer was not properly translated or not
2 properly recorded. So I would ask the Prosecutor to clarify the
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
5 MR. ELDERKIN:
6 Q. I simply ask the same question again. Sir, could you please tell
7 us about the ICRC visit sometime after you arrived at Rasadnik camp.
8 Indeed, since you can read English and can see perhaps the answer you've
9 given around - at least on my screen - lines 18 through 21 of page 78.
10 And if there's anything to add to that, please, could you add it.
11 A. Yes, I can add something to this.
12 On the arrival of the Red Cross, they brought with them and
13 distributed some medical materiel, something for personal hygiene, such
14 as tooth-brushes, brushes, towels for wiping. But there was not
15 sufficient quantity. So we cut them in half so that each prisoner would
16 have one, then some toilet paper. And they also distributed forms which
17 we could sent to our families to inform them of our whereabouts; that is
18 to say, to get in touch with our families through the Red Cross.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that the
21 Prosecutor mistaked [as interpreted] the line when he looked at the
22 transcript. Page 78, line 20. I'm -- I had in mind the name of a person
23 and where he is from. I think the witness did not say that he was from
24 Ilijas but that his last name was similar to what is recorded in the
25 transcript. So if we could please clarify this just for the sake of
1 clarity of transcript.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, that would be helpful.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: I am afraid that we have both LiveNote and
4 ring-tail running on slightly different line numbers. So I apologise for
5 picking out the wrong reference.
6 Q. Sir, you mentioned the name of a prisoner you said was from
7 Ilijas. And the name hasn't been picked up correctly in the transcript.
8 Could you please say again his name and, if necessary, spell it.
9 A. Yes. It was a person from Visegrad. And his name was
10 Ilijas Cuprija.
11 Q. I understand now.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 MR. ELDERKIN:
14 Q. Sir, you said that General Tolimir addressed the prisoners who
15 arrived in your group and said that you would be in the camp for, I
16 think, two or three days. How long was your group of prisoners, in fact,
17 in this camp?
18 A. We stayed in Rogatica for 172 days, and we waited for the
19 exchange for four days in Kula near Sarajevo.
20 Q. During this time of your imprisonment, were there any beatings or
21 mistreatment of any prisoners?
22 A. On the first day, on our arrivals, the beatings started but they
23 took place in the evening when the duty policemen stayed alone without
24 the camp warden and it relatively happened during the night. But the
25 intensity depended on the policemen themselves; that is to say, who of
1 them was on duty. I can even tell you the first and last names of some
2 of them, if needed. Some groups of policemen or pairs of policemen,
3 depending on what their shifts were, had more than decent attitude to all
4 the prisoners and we could literally feel as at home; whereas, there were
5 other groups who were terrible.
6 Intensity of the beatings decreased perhaps after we had spent
7 about ten days there, once we had the work obligation introduced when
8 they started taking the prisoners to work. Probably for the reason that
9 if someone was beaten black and blue, he couldn't work, so then they
10 tried to leave everyone in good physical shape.
11 Q. Sir, were all of the prisoners who came to the camp after the
12 fall of Zepa still with you when you left in January of 1996?
13 A. All who had been brought there were exchanged in January 1996,
14 expect for Esad Cocalic. He was taken away one evening. I cannot be
15 precise about the date, because this was along time ago. One evening
16 around 10.00 p.m. the room in which is he was accommodated and so was I,
17 Petar Despot, who was the deputy camp warden, came to that room and
18 called on him to come out. He asked, Should I get ready? And the answer
19 was, No, you don't need to. You will go out just for a brief period. He
20 didn't come back that night, and in the morning when we got up to do our
21 everyday duties, each man to his own tasks, the same Petar told us, Esad
22 is happy. He has been exchanged; that is to say, his relative from Libya
23 who was temporarily working in Libya allegedly paid for him, paid a
24 ransom and he was released. Everyone else who had been brought that day
25 was exchanged on the 19th of January, 1996.
1 Q. Did any other prisoners arrive in the camp during the time you
2 were staying there? People either you saw personally or people you
3 learnt arrived in the camp.
4 A. It was like this: Huso Cocalic was brought a day after us. He
5 was exchanged when we were. I cannot be precise whether it was a day or
6 two later, after our arrival. Hamdija Torlak was also brought there. So
7 was Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric. Hamdija was exchanged together with
8 us. As for Amir and Mehmed, I didn't know anything until a year or two
9 ago when their bodies were exhumed in the area of Ragolavi [phoen] near
11 In the meantime, they brought more people to one room, which we
12 called the notorious room. But I cannot be precise. I do not know who
13 was brought there. I can just be precise about the number of people,
14 because we knew how many meals they were taking upstairs, whether those
15 were breakfast, lunches or dinner. This is how we could judge how many
16 people were there. But who exactly was there, and how for long they were
17 kept, this is something I don't know.
18 Q. Did you ever learn of a prisoner called Mujo Hodzic?
19 A. Yes, one of the prisons who were exchanged from the same room
20 told me that. Mujo Hodzic and Mujo Paraganlija, were kept in that room
21 for a while. They were taken away one night, but where, this is
22 something he didn't know, and neither do I.
23 Q. What were the nationalities of those two men, Mujo Hodzic and
24 Mujo Paraganlija?
25 A. Muslims.
1 Q. Tell us what you know about each of them. First of all,
2 Mujo Hodzic, how old was he and where was he from?
3 A. I can suppose that he was probably born around 1950, I'm not
4 sure. He could have been a year or two younger or older. And he used to
5 live in the village of Osovo, a dozen kilometres from Rogatica, on the
6 Rogatica-Borike road. He was a refugee throughout the war in Zepa. And
7 as for the circumstances under which he was taken prisoner, and where,
8 I'm not familiar about that.
9 Q. How about Mujo Paraganlija?
10 A. Mujo Paraganlija was younger. He could have been born in 1966 or
11 1967. He was single, from Zepa or more specifically, from the village of
12 Slap on the banks of the Drina. Once again, I don't know how and where
13 he had been taken prisoner.
14 Q. Were all the prisoners you encountered, or knew of, Muslims or
15 were there any Serb prisoners?
16 A. They were all Muslims. There was not a single Serb.
17 Q. Can you describe the accommodation for the prisoners?
18 A. As General Tolimir ordered them to separate the elderly from the
19 wounded, the elderly men were held in the biggest room in the facility,
20 and I think it was a mess for the labourers from the farm. And we, the
21 wounded, were accommodated in two offices which could have been between
22 30 to 40 square metres, both of these offices together.
23 Q. Do you remember the numbers of prisoners who were accommodated in
24 each of the rooms?
25 A. I think that there were seven in one, ten in another, and the
1 others were in the biggest room, the elderly.
2 Q. I'd like to look at one document, I think, before we finish for
3 the evening, which is Exhibit P1434.
4 Sir, while this is coming up on the screen, this is a VRS
5 document sent, as you'll see from the Rogatica Brigade or 1st Podrinje
6 Light Infantry Brigade Command on the 30th of July, 1995. And I'd ask
7 once it is up on the screen to go, please, to the last page so that we
8 can see the signature block.
9 We can see that it is signed with the following words:
10 "By authorisation from General Tolimir, chief of OBP,
11 Captain Zoran Carkic."
12 I'll start by asking you if you know who was
13 Captain Zoran Carkic?
14 A. Yes. Zoran Carkic was the camp warden. Oh, no, Zoran Neskovic
15 was the camp warden. And Zoran Carkic was, I think, in charge of certain
16 duties within the security organs of the Army of Republika Srpska
17 because he visited us and he took statements from us at the camp.
18 Q. Did he take any statement from you?
19 A. He didn't take statements from all prisoners and all inmates. He
20 selected several people that he conducted interviews with and took their
22 Q. Were you one of those people from whom he took a statement, or
23 were you not selected?
24 A. He did not select me and I didn't give him a statement. I gave a
25 statement only to their inspector from the state security, or at least
1 that was how he introduced himself, as an inspector of the state security
2 of Republika Srpska.
3 Q. When was that, that you were interviewed by somebody who said
4 they were from state security?
5 A. First week of September. All the prisoners were processed at the
6 time, and they all gave statements to inspectors of state security.
7 Q. What did they ask you about?
8 A. Mostly about the war activities in the Zepa zone. But the
9 emphasis was on the beginning of the war and Budicin Potok, where a
10 column of their army which was moving in the direction of Zloryrh had
11 been attacked. The rest mainly came down to small scale smuggling and
12 black marketing in the area: Who received goods in Zepa, from whom, how
13 much, and so on and so forth.
14 Q. What did they want to know, if you remember, about this attack on
15 the column going towards Zloryrh?
16 A. Mostly who participated in the attack; that is to say, who were
17 the men who had carried out the attack and so on.
18 Q. If we could zoom out, please, so that we can stay on the same
19 page but see the paragraph block just above there.
20 Sir, if you can see just above the signature, there's text which
21 talks about a certain Lieutenant Matic and his involvement in searching
22 or robbing some Muslims. Did you ever hear anything about that?
23 A. The people who were taken off the penultimate convoy and who
24 spent the night in Tisca told us that, on that night, one Matic
25 practically robbed them and took away their money. But I didn't see
1 that, and I cannot confirm it 100 per cent.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: I see we're at 7.00, and I have a few more
3 questions on this document. But there's no harm in breaking. I think we
4 can pick it up anyway, because I need to look at the beginning of the
5 document when I start tomorrow, if that suits Your Honours.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, we must adjourn for the date.
7 We will resume tomorrow in the morning at 9.00 in this courtroom,
8 number III. The Court Officer will assist you during the break.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We adjourn.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of May,
14 2011, at 9.00 a.m.