Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16791

 1                           Tuesday, 19 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             I see you on your feet, Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and

 8     good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.

 9             I just have two brief issues that I would like to raise,

10     housekeeping, and they both relate to interpretation.

11             We've received, actually, translated documents, the documents

12     that had earlier been MFI'd, and we believe that now they can be fully

13     admitted into evidence.  If you allow me, I would like to read out the

14     numbers.  There are five documents in total.  That's D195, D215, D231,

15     D257, and D261.

16             The next issue that I wanted to raise is actually some

17     information.

18             The CLSS service refused to translate certain documents from

19     English into B/C/S, into Serbian, documents that the Defence intends to

20     use with this witness, Mr. Butler.  The document that I'm talking about

21     is on our 65 ter list under 1D924, and we can all see it now in the

22     courtroom.  And I believe that we will need your assistance in order for

23     the CLSS to translate this document.

24             I would just like to say as a preface that all of the documents

25     that are admitted into evidence that we are going to use are both in

Page 16792

 1     English and Serbian.  However, to my surprise, we were informed by the

 2     CLSS service that documents are only translated into official languages

 3     of this Tribunal; in other words, from Serbian into English, but not the

 4     other way around.  It is my belief, however, that this Trial Chamber has

 5     made a ruling - it was a while back - that all documents that have to be

 6     used in the courtroom have to be translated into B/C/S as well.

 7             I would just like to read out the Registry translation policy out

 8     of that document.  That's paragraph 1.4, and it reads:

 9             [In English] "Self-represented accused should submit a request

10     for translation of evidence into B/C/S, and where there is no order from

11     a Chamber resolving the question of requests to translate material into

12     B/C/S, the matter will be referred to the deputy chief of CMSS, in the

13     first instance, or the chief of CMSS, if required, and the decision to

14     grant or refuse the request will be agreed upon in a consultation with

15     the chief of CLSS."

16             [Interpretation] Now, since we've already had documents

17     translated from English into Serbian, especially those documents that are

18     submitted by the Prosecution, we believe that the Defence should be

19     treated the same way and that documents that we are tendering into

20     evidence should also be translated.  And if, in the future, the Defence

21     had to take upon itself the burden of translating all the documents that

22     we are going to use into Serbian, it would be a tremendous load that we

23     can barely manage.  We have done so so far, and we've even translated

24     parts of the transcript, the relevant parts, of course, so far, and there

25     will be just a small number of documents that we intend to tender into

Page 16793

 1     evidence that we will request to be translated by the CLSS.

 2             The document I'm talking about is 1D924, and this Defence

 3     considers this document very important.  It relates to the convoys and

 4     the UNPROFOR position, and this is the document that CLSS refused to

 5     translate.

 6             So in conclusion, we would like your assistance to order CLSS to

 7     translate this document, 1D924, as soon as possible into Serbian.  And,

 8     two, if we could have the CLSS informed of the practice in this case, the

 9     practice that applies to the Prosecution but that should apply to the

10     Defence as well, and that relates to the translation of documents.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.

12             Does the Prosecution take a position on that?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's a strange-sounding situation.  I can't

14     imagine why the CLSS can't translate a UN cable, and I think it should be

15     translated.  But aside from that, we would stay out of it.  I think, of

16     course, the Defence should be able to have English documents of

17     reasonable length that are relevant translated by CLSS.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

19             It is a serious matter.  The Chamber will inquire the background

20     of this conflict and this problem, and we will come back to that matter

21     as soon as possible.

22             In relation to the five documents which have now a translation

23     into English, the first one, D195, was not only marked for identification

24     because of a lack of a translation, but also because the witness,

25     Rupert Smith, was not in a position to testify about the content and to

Page 16794

 1     authenticate this document.  That happened on the 28th of March this

 2     year.  Therefore, this document will remain MFI'd.  The others, D215,

 3     D231, D257, and D261, will now be exhibits in this trial.

 4             If there are no other matters to deal with before the witness

 5     comes back into the courtroom, he should be brought in, please.

 6             Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that you're

 8     absolutely right.  It was my error regarding document D195.  And I see

 9     the note that I made myself at the time, but I believe that I just made

10     an omission, in view of the other problems we have.

11             Now, if I can just add one more thing before the witness comes

12     in.

13             You've already seen that we have already 200 days, and in view of

14     the fact that the Defence did not frequently raise issues, such as the

15     one that I raised earlier on, and that we were very efficient in dealing

16     with all documents, regardless of what language they were in, we would

17     really now urge the Trial Chamber to assist us, because if we are unable

18     to obtain documents in translation that are required, this may affect the

19     length of the trial, itself.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I think we understood your position,

22     and we take it very seriously and will deal with that immediately.

23             Welcome back, and good afternoon, Mr. Butler.

24             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, sir.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, the affirmation to tell the truth still

Page 16795

 1     applies.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 3                           WITNESS:  RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey is continuing his

 5     examination-in-chief.

 6             Mr. McCloskey.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             And could we go back to P13, Vinko Pandurevic's interim combat

 9     report of 15 July, where we left off.  It should be in tab 167.

10                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

11        Q.   Just to remind us, you'd testified that the first three

12     paragraphs updated the urgent military situation that Pandurevic was

13     facing.  Then you gave us your analysis of the statement:

14             "The additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners

15     distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as

16     obligations of security and "restoration of the terrain," or "asanacija

17     terena," as it's in the Serbian.

18             And then the next paragraph states:

19             "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer, as

20     it has neither the material or other resources.  If no one takes on this

21     responsibility, I will be forced to let them go."

22             What do you think this is a reference to?

23        A.   Well, sir, it has two possible meanings.  The first one could be

24     related to the column that is going through.  The second one could be

25     related to the issue of prisoners being detained in the schools that were

Page 16796

 1     still being detained at this time, although I think the second one is

 2     more or less an empty threat, because I can't see somebody such as

 3     Colonel Pandurevic effectively releasing 1500 prisoners kilometres behind

 4     his own front-lines and deep within his rear area and somehow expecting

 5     that they're going to make their way out of his territory into friendly

 6     territory.

 7        Q.   Have you -- personally have your own opinion on which of these

 8     two possibilities is the appropriate one?

 9        A.   I do not believe he's discussing the column here.  It is my view

10     that he is making a threat, albeit an empty one, to his superiors related

11     to the prisoners.

12        Q.   All right.  In the three previous paragraphs, where he talks

13     about the situation, and the forces of the -- the Muslim forces, and the

14     attack that's still progressing, is there any mention at all of the

15     possibility of opening a corridor or allowing any of these Muslims

16     through these lines?  Is there any suggestion there in those first three

17     paragraphs?

18        A.   No, sir.  And, in part, this is why I believe that in the

19     particular context of how this document is written, that Pandurevic is

20     taking the phrase "forced to let them go" and it's referring to the

21     prisoners being detained at the schools in his municipality and not as a

22     result of what's happening with the column.

23        Q.   In any of these three paragraphs that we see, the first three

24     paragraphs, or, indeed, the situation in the battle-field at the time, is

25     there any indication that at that point that he's writing this, that

Page 16797

 1     Pandurevic actually has some kind of control over or the ability over the

 2     Muslims in the woods that are coming in large numbers through his zone?

 3        A.   Well, he believes he does.  He talks about the fact, for example,

 4     in the third paragraph, that despite having no reserves, that they have

 5     sealed off various areas pertaining to the column.  And further down,

 6     there is -- I guess it's paragraph 7, just a one-sentence paragraph, he

 7     reiterates that while the situation is complicated, it's under control.

 8        Q.   All right.  This next paragraph:

 9             "I made an offer to the commander of the other side to separate

10     out the civilians and have the others surrender, but he refused, asking

11     that they should all be released together."

12             How do you analyse this comment in relation to this

13     interpretation of the rest of the document that you've just talked about?

14        A.   In this particular context, as we've heard before, there have

15     been references to ongoing communication between Semso Muminovic - I hope

16     I've pronounced that correctly - who was leading Muslim military attacks

17     from the ABiH 2 Corps in an effort to relieve pressure and open a hole

18     for the column to get through, and members of the Zvornik Brigade, to

19     include Colonel Pandurevic when he arrived back there on the early

20     morning -- or in the morning hours of 15 July.  Colonel Pandurevic had

21     earlier, at that 1200 meeting with other commanders of the MUP and his

22     own subordinates, ruled out completely letting the column go, and in this

23     particular comment he's making it clear that, you know, he's still not

24     prepared to let the column go in the context that it is, but he's holding

25     open the possibility and laying out his position that, you know, he would

Page 16798

 1     accept some kind of agreement where, under some circumstances, the column

 2     stops, a cease-fire is declared, and the Zvornik Brigade has the ability

 3     to essentially separate those individuals who are members of the former

 4     28th Division from those individuals who are considered to somehow be

 5     civilians.

 6        Q.   So if that's correct, this paragraph:  "I made an offer to the

 7     commander ...," is still indicating a refusal to let even the civilians

 8     through.  When we look at the paragraph above:  "I will let the column

 9     go ...," is that in contradiction to that, meaning to suggest that "let

10     them go" is the column or consistent with it?

11        A.   I believe it contradicts the idea that at this point in time,

12     Colonel Pandurevic is prepared to let the entire column go.  I believe

13     what it's accurately discussing is the fact that he's not prepared to let

14     the column go because he's not prepared to accept military personnel in

15     the column escaping, in conjunction with civilians who are believed to be

16     in the column.

17        Q.   And to remind us, does that situation for Pandurevic change a bit

18     later, just to remind us of what happens a bit later, and when, how far

19     later?

20        A.   Based on military activity that occurs throughout, primarily, the

21     evening hours of the 15th of July, and the early-morning hours of the

22     16th of July, at some point in the morning or early afternoon of the 16th

23     of July, Colonel Pandurevic changes his view on this subject and believes

24     that the casualties that the Muslim column is inflicting on his

25     particular units are greater than the benefits that his unit is getting

Page 16799

 1     for engaging the column, and that he, again without proper authorisation,

 2     makes a decision to allow the entire column, to include combatants and

 3     civilians, pass through his lines.  He does declare that cease-fire 24

 4     hours later.

 5        Q.   And taking you back briefly to Borovcanin's after-action report,

 6     where he describes being present in the Batkovica [phoen] area and the

 7     Muslims taking Serbs weapons and turning them on the Serbs, do you relate

 8     that description by Borovcanin to anything that you've just described

 9     that Pandurevic was concerned about when he changed his mind to open a

10     corridor?

11        A.   Yes, sir.  I believe that Colonel Pandurevic's understanding of

12     the situation on 16 July reflects his belief that at that time, his

13     particular brigade, I mean, specifically the 4th Infantry Battalion and

14     the 6th Infantry Battalion, have been particularly hard hit by the

15     column.  In fact, the morning of the 16th of July, the 4th Battalion

16     headquarters and command post is actually over-run by the column,

17     resulting in a number of casualties.  At the same time, the evening of

18     the 15th and the morning of the 16th, the Zvornik Brigade loses contact

19     with a unit of soldiers that had come up from Bratunac and were literally

20     lost in the woods, and there was fear that this particular unit had, in

21     fact, been wiped out by the column.  It later surfaced that they had just

22     been lost and out of radio contact.

23             So when one looks at the battle-field from Colonel Pandurevic's

24     eyes on the 16th of July, it is clear that he sees an extremely complex

25     situation and a situation that is increasingly causing casualties within

Page 16800

 1     his units, and I believe it is in that light that he makes the decision

 2     ultimately to allow the column to pass.

 3        Q.   Now, let me take you back to this document.  And you've described

 4     obligations of security, in your view, mean guarding of the prisoners,

 5     and "restoration of the terrain," or as it's said in the original,

 6     "asanacija terena," what is your understanding of both the meaning of

 7     "asanacija" and the use of the term of "asanacija" as we see it in these

 8     documents?  Is it the same, is it different?

 9        A.   The phrase "asanacija" is, from its translation in various

10     military and military medical regulations of the former SFRY, simply a

11     description of the processes that occur where biological hazard material

12     is cleared and disposed of because of the risk of disease to humans.  It

13     can be simply something when the military will go into a disaster area

14     and remove livestock that has been killed by some calamity because you

15     can't leave them on a -- you know, a piece of land or real estate because

16     of the threat of disease.  It would also include a process of going over

17     a former battle-field that you now control, collecting the dead and

18     burying them.  It is simply a military sanitation term.

19        Q.   And how do you believe it is -- you've already explained what you

20     believe it means here.  What do you believe it means here, and have you

21     seen this term used other ways in these documents, or similar ways?

22        A.   I've seen the term used in similar documents related to this

23     always describing the burial of human remains.  In this particular

24     document, it is my view that the only thing that Colonel Pandurevic can

25     be talking about here is the burial of Bosnian Muslim prisoners who have

Page 16801

 1     been executed.

 2        Q.   Well, you have, yourself, described that there was fighting going

 3     on on the 14th, in the woods, as the approach towards Baljkovica, the

 4     15th around Baljkovica, as you've just described.  Could this be a

 5     reference to going in and cleaning up the battle-field from that combat?

 6        A.   As a practical matter, one usually waits until the conclusion of

 7     combat activities before attempting to bury the bodies of individuals

 8     killed in combat.  When one looks at the dates that the military attacks

 9     were taking place on the 13th and the 14th and the 15th, there's still

10     active combat going on in these locations.  It's not practical that the

11     VRS, while they are engaged in combat, in some places on terrain that

12     they don't control, is going to engage in efforts to bury Muslim members

13     of the column who were killed as part of the combat operations.  They're

14     certainly not going to be burying Bosnian Serb soldiers on the

15     battle-field in that sense.

16             So when one looks at this phrase and what's happening on the

17     battle-field, it makes no sense that they would be burying battle

18     casualties in that sense.  When you couple this with the military

19     engineer records of the Zvornik Brigade, which actually shows where

20     various earth-moving machines are in operation and, in fact, it coincides

21     with locations of mass executions, I believe it becomes quite clear

22     exactly what he was using this phrase in context with.

23        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document.  It's 65 ter 143, and

24     this is also an interim combat report, but this time from the Drina Corps

25     to the Main Staff.  It's in the name of the commander, General Krstic,

Page 16802

 1     and I think any review of this document will show that while it does

 2     discuss some attack, there's certainly no reference of Pandurevic having

 3     the burden of guarding large numbers of prisoners in schools in his area

 4     and his obligation to bury them or do "asanacija."  So this information,

 5     this is not -- what Pandurevic said to the Drina Corps in his interim

 6     report does not appear to be going up through the official interim report

 7     of the Drina Corps to the Main Staff if it had been received at this

 8     time.  Would you expect in this report, or in a later report if the

 9     timing didn't coincide, that the Drina Corps would actually communicate

10     in writing similar information that Pandurevic sent to them about

11     guarding and burying large numbers of prisoners?

12        A.   Regardless of the timing, I would not expect that the

13     Drina Corps, in its reporting, would report that fact, the security

14     obligations and the "asanacija," to its higher command.  Clearly, you

15     know, on two occasions, because of circumstances and the pressure that

16     he's under, Colonel Pandurevic makes these written references in his

17     reports to the Drina Corps, in part, expressing his frustration about the

18     circumstances that he's in the middle of, and on the 18th, you know,

19     seeking to justify his decisions.  General Krstic, in this context, isn't

20     feeling that same pressure and frustration, and certainly wouldn't feel

21     that he'd want to put this in writing to the Main Staff.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to the next document.  I'm

23     sorry, this does need to be placed into evidence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 143 shall be

Page 16803

 1     assigned Exhibit P2545.  Thank you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   And here at P479, we're back to our chronology and we're back to

 4     the Zepa area, a document from General Tolimir, from the Rogatica Brigade

 5     area, dated 15 July, to the Security Department of the 1st Krajina Corps,

 6     and he is talking about the provision of a loud-speaker to be transported

 7     to the Rogatica Garrison by 1500 hours on 16 July.  Do you have any idea

 8     what this is about?

 9        A.   In the context of this document, it appears that General Tolimir

10     believes that through the use of, essentially, loud-speakers to transmit

11     propaganda or other messages to the Bosnian Muslim military garrison or

12     military units around Zepa, that he can potentially weaken their resolve

13     to resist or, in fact, even induce them into surrendering in some numbers

14     by promising that they will be cared for, fed, and treated in accordance

15     with the relevant conventions.  So this is the technical aspect of him

16     seeking to obtain the relevant equipment that he needs in order to

17     accomplish this.

18        Q.   What, if anything, does General Tolimir communicating over this

19     means indicate about his whereabouts and his availability to those that

20     would seek him out to provide him with information?

21        A.   It is generally a reflection that he can be found in and around

22     the command post of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade; if not

23     personally there at all times, certainly as a place where messages can be

24     sent and then they will be relayed to him, wherever he happens to be.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let's get over to the 16th now and go to P845A.

Page 16804

 1             Actually, before we get there, I'd like to go to a document that

 2     you suggested yesterday.  It is the duty officer -- the list of the duty

 3     officer of the Drina Corps, and the number for that is 2202.

 4             And we're going to have to just look at the screen.  I think it's

 5     something I removed.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you referring to P2202?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 2202, and the other one is

 8     2203.  It's a two-part document, but if we could start with 2202.

 9        Q.   And I think yesterday you were trying to recollect who was the

10     duty officer from the Drina Corps at various times.

11             And if we could blow that up, especially the English, for

12     Mr. Butler to take a look at.  And we're interested in the days of -- if

13     we could get 17 across the top in.  There we go.  That's helpful.

14             I think you mentioned Mr. Cerovic.  So can you tell us what

15     this -- first of all, what this document is?

16        A.   This particular document looks to be a list of various officers

17     of the Drina Corps, reflecting their name and rank, and then what

18     corresponding days they are scheduled to perform duty in the

19     Operations Centre of the Drina Corps Command.

20        Q.   And so according to this, who would have been the duty officer on

21     July 16th, 1995?

22        A.   If I read this -- it just disappeared.  If I read this correctly,

23     it would be a Lieutenant Colonel Rakic.

24        Q.   All right.  And if we look at Cerovic all the way across the

25     month, do we see him ever holding the duty officer job?

Page 16805

 1        A.   No, sir.

 2        Q.   All right.  Can you remind us who Cerovic is?

 3        A.   Colonel Cerovic at this time is the assistant commander for

 4     Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs for the Drina Corps.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer this document in

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is 65 ter 2202; is that correct?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Because you were referring to two different

10     numbers.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That one's coming next.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  This will be received.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2202 shall be

14     assigned Exhibit P2546.  Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could put 2203 up there.

16        Q.   And this, you'll be able to see, is the list of assistants to the

17     duty officer at the Drina Corps.  And can you tell us just very

18     briefly - I believe the Court's heard it before - but how does this work,

19     the duty officer and his assistant?

20        A.   The duty officer and the assistant, during their performance of

21     duty, their scheduled performance of duty, are the focal point by which

22     most issues will come into a particular unit or headquarters, and it is

23     their responsibility to accept the incoming task, lay the task out, and

24     make that initial decision as to where the task should go within the

25     command in order to be properly dealt with.

Page 16806

 1             Most of the issues that the duty officers deal with are the usual

 2     routine things that come into the command.  The one issue that is of note

 3     is that in the event that decisions need to be made and the commander, or

 4     deputy commander, or other relevant officers who would be in the chain of

 5     command are not available, the duty officer is authorised to undertake

 6     those limited decisions in light of what he understands the commander's

 7     guidance is.  So because of these various duties, the duty officer is

 8     someone, as well as his assistant, who are always in and around the

 9     Operations Centre and have a very detailed awareness of the situation

10     that's occurring in their particular unit or headquarters during the

11     period that they're performing the duty.

12        Q.   Practically, who do you normally see writing notes in the middle

13     of the night?  How did it practically work in that respect between duty

14     officer and assistant duty officer?

15        A.   Practically speaking, the duty officer would usually try and

16     catch a few hours of sleep, and the assistant duty officer would be the

17     guy left awake to manage the activities.  Having said that, the duty

18     officer is not going home.  If he's sleeping, he's sleeping on a cot

19     where he can be, you know, woken up and brought into the situation within

20     a minute or two.  So --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer this document into evidence

22     as well.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2203 shall be

25     assigned Exhibit P2547.  Thank you.

Page 16807

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now let's go to P845A.  This is in 170, the

 2     tab, and it's a 16 July intercept between Colonel Ljubo Beara, Cerovic,

 3     and X.

 4        Q.   I take it this is the same Ljubo Beara you've been talking about.

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   And who do you believe this Cerovic is?

 7        A.   I believe this is Colonel Cerovic, the assistant commander for

 8     Morale, Legal and Religious Affairs for the Drina Corps.  And I guess I

 9     should note in this context, from my earlier testimony, based on the

10     previous exhibits, he was not performing his duty officer -- he was not

11     performing as the duty officer, so I previously misspoke there.

12        Q.   And where do you believe Beara is and where do you believe

13     Cerovic is, based on this conversation and the other information?

14        A.   Given the time and date that it's occurring, I believe that

15     Colonel Beara is at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters and that

16     Colonel Cerovic is at the Drina Corps Command in Vlasenica.

17        Q.   And we see this, that Cerovic says:

18             "Hey, listen to me.  Triage has to be done today ... taken

19     prisoners."

20             X says:

21             "Yes."

22             There's some distortion.

23             X says:

24             "To do triage."

25             Cerovic says:

Page 16808

 1             "Triage has to be done on the prisoners."

 2             X says:

 3             "Colonel Beara is right here by me."

 4             Cerovic says:

 5             "Give me Beara."

 6             X says:

 7             "Go ahead."

 8             B, would be for "Beara," says:

 9             "Yes."

10             Cerovic says:

11             "Ljubo."

12             Beara says:

13             "I hear you."

14             Cerovic says:

15             "Hello.  Cerovic speaking."

16             What, in your view, is this triage that has to be done on

17     prisoners?  First of all, what prisoners do you think Cerovic is talking

18     about here at 1111 hours on 16 July?

19        A.   On 16 July, the last clusters of prisoners are those at the

20     Pilica School and in the Dom of Culture.

21        Q.   And so what do you make "triage" to mean in this context?

22        A.   I don't take it to believe [sic] that it's being done in the

23     medical sense.  Neither Colonel Beara or Colonel Cerovic are obviously

24     medical personnel.

25        Q.   Remind us in an army, what -- in an army combat situation, what

Page 16809

 1     "triage" means.

 2        A.   In a military medical sense, triage is a battle-field medical

 3     evaluation whereas military medical personnel prioritise wounded soldiers

 4     or other personnel in terms of the ability to treat them and the

 5     timeliness of their treatment, generally identifies those wounded who

 6     will survive their wounds without immediate care and then can be placed

 7     off to the side, it identifies those individuals who, without immediate

 8     care, would or could die of their wounds, and, further, it identifies

 9     individuals who are wounded so grievously that it might be that despite

10     any medical care given to them, they're not expected to survive their

11     wounds.  In a battle-field context, military medicine is not unlimited,

12     and sometimes those types of difficult choices have to be made in light

13     of the circumstances and the availability of qualified medical personnel

14     to treat the wounded.  So those -- that decision process and the

15     procedures associated with it are generally known as "triage."

16        Q.   Have you had a chance to review the witness statements or

17     testimony of survivors that were held at the Pilica School, in terms of

18     whether or not they received any medical help or any significant amount

19     of food or water?

20        A.   My understanding of their both statements and testimony over the

21     years is that they did not receive life support in the sense of food,

22     appreciable amounts of water, or any medical care whatsoever.

23        Q.   So what do you think "triage" means in this context?

24        A.   In this particular document, my opinion is that "triage" is a

25     euphemistic phrase that they're using to say the prisoners need to be

Page 16810

 1     taken out and executed.

 2        Q.   How do you make that conclusion?  What do you base that on?

 3        A.   When this document originally came into -- or when this intercept

 4     originally came into the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor, we

 5     did -- certainly I did, obviously, look into the circumstances to

 6     determine whether or not it could have another meaning related to

 7     military medicine.  Through the course of the investigation, and when one

 8     looks at this in context with other intercepts, other documents, and the

 9     events that are occurring on the ground at the time, it becomes clear

10     that it could be the only thing that he's talking about.  They're not

11     medical personnel.

12             And in light of the fact that the -- now the only known wounded

13     prisoners are those 13 or 15 that are in the Standard facility, I don't

14     believe that Colonel Beara and Colonel Cerovic are referring to them.

15     Those individuals have already been treated, and they are essentially

16     recovering from their injuries at the Standard facility.  And as

17     discussed earlier, there are other intercepts and documents and testimony

18     related to what really happened to those particular individuals at a

19     later date.  So putting all of this together, in light of what was

20     happening in the circumstances, that is what I base my conclusion on that

21     the subject that they are talking about is murdering the prisoners.

22        Q.   Okay.  Continuing, Cerovic says:

23             "Cerovic speaking."

24             You see that in the middle.

25             Beara says:

Page 16811

 1             "I hear you."

 2             Cerovic says:

 3             "Trkulja --"

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you for a moment, because

 5     Judge Mindua has a question to the last part.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I have a short

 7     question for you.  I'm looking for the document in question.

 8             Yesterday, we talked about -- I have the document now.

 9             Witness, yesterday, in document 65 ter 249, which was admitted

10     into evidence and received the Exhibit P2544, we saw in this exhibit that

11     Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic say that there were children -- at least four

12     children aged between eight and fourteen among the detainees, the

13     prisoners.  We are now, in the document we have before us, reviewing this

14     document, and you have provided us with an explanation for the term

15     "triage."  You indicated that this term could not refer to people who

16     were ill or wounded.  What do you think of these children who were among

17     the detainees?

18             THE WITNESS:  Well, sir, in the context of where these events

19     were happening on the battle-field, the four children were part of a

20     group that was captured on, I believe, the 17th of July, 1995, based on

21     that sweep operation that was jointly accomplished by the military and

22     MUP units, and, yes, sir, you're correct in that sense.  A decision was

23     made by somebody that these four children would be culled from that group

24     of prisoners and taken to Bratunac.  And I guess the fate of the

25     remaining adults that were captured as part of that has been the subject

Page 16812

 1     of testimony that I'm not too familiar with.

 2             In this particular context, this is a conversation that is

 3     occurring on the 16th of July, 1995.  There are only two groups of

 4     prisoners that would be of potential topic of discussion between these

 5     two officers.  The first group of prisoners are those who are detained in

 6     the facilities at Pilica and the Dom of Culture.  The only other group of

 7     potential prisoners would be individuals who might have surrendered from

 8     the column to members of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and the other

 9     police units that were fighting at Baljkovica, Memici, and those

10     locations.  Unfortunately, as the investigation has borne out, in almost

11     all of those cases where prisoners are taken as a result of being

12     captured from the column in the Zvornik area, most of them are relatively

13     quickly executed.  They don't survive long enough to be separated or

14     triaged in that sense anywhere else.

15             So it's because of these circumstances, again related to my

16     understanding of the circumstances as they're occurring on the ground,

17     that I draw the conclusion that what Colonel Beara and that what

18     Colonel Cerovic are talking about are the execution of those prisoners

19     still held at Pilica, in the school, and at the Dom of Culture.  Those

20     are the final large grouping of prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade area.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And just as a follow-up on that:  The four children that were

25     picked up in the sweep operation, where was that in relation to the

Page 16813

 1     Zvornik area schools that you're talking about all those prisoners in the

 2     schools were on the 16th?  Excuse me, the Kula School and the Cultural

 3     Centre.

 4        A.   Particularly the Kula School and the Cultural Centre are located

 5     in the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade area, to the extreme north

 6     end of the Zvornik municipality.  The prisoners captured as part of the

 7     sweep operation -- or the four children, I should say, captured as part

 8     of the sweep operation the next day are those captured in the woods near

 9     Konjevic Polje, which puts them in the Bratunac municipality.

10        Q.   And to make sure it's clear, do you -- are you aware of the fate

11     of those four children?  Was that something that was determined, in your

12     recollection, as part of your time here?

13        A.   I think that particular aspect of the investigation was completed

14     after I left.  But if I recall correctly, I understand that those four

15     children did, in fact, survive, if I recall it correctly.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, I think it's -- the Defence

17     would not object if I did tell you that, yes, those children did, in

18     fact, survive and had been interviewed.  So that's perfectly clear for

19     the record, if I'd not made that clear sooner.

20        Q.   All right.  Now, Beara says:

21             "I hear you."

22             And then Cerovic says:

23             "Trkulja was here with me just now, and he was looking for you.

24     I don't know."

25             Who do you take this "Trkulja" to be?

Page 16814

 1        A.   This is the same Colonel Trkulja who is the chief of armour and

 2     mechanised forces on the Main Staff, and his name, of course, is

 3     mentioned in the 17 July 1995 Main Staff order as one of the three

 4     officers who was sent the next day to the Zvornik Brigade to determine

 5     what happened with respect to the column.

 6        Q.   So if Cerovic is at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica and

 7     says that, Trkulja was here with me, what does that suggest to you where

 8     Trkulja was on the 16th?

 9        A.   That on the 16th he had travelled from the Main Staff to

10     Vlasenica and was present in the Drina Corps headquarters.

11        Q.   And Beara says:

12             "Yes."

13             Cerovic says:

14             "So he told me ... he got instructions from above."

15             What do you think this means?  Who are they talking about?

16        A.   The people above Trkulja, as a Main Staff officer, would be his

17     senior leaders of the Main Staff.

18        Q.   All right.  And then Beara says:

19             "Yes."

20             Cerovic says:

21             "To do triage on those --"

22             And then he's interrupted.

23             Beara says:

24             "I don't want to talk about it on the phone."

25             What do you take that comment to mean?

Page 16815

 1        A.   It's as before, Colonel Beara, among many others, understood that

 2     these lines were subject to intercept by hostile forces.  It's something,

 3     again, I use not as a throw-away line, but as a reflection of the fact

 4     that if we were really discussing a legitimate issue of medical triage,

 5     one wouldn't think that that would be a particularly sensitive issue that

 6     Colonel Beara would feel a compelling need to cut somebody off on the

 7     phone to remind them that these issues shouldn't be discussed over this

 8     potential phone line.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document, P846.  It's another

10     16 July intercept a little bit later now in the afternoon.  It's 1358

11     hours.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This confidential document should not be

13     broadcast.  Thank you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   It's from the Zlatar duty officer and the Palma duty officer, and

16     the Palma duty officer says:

17             "Hello, Zlatar.  Give me the duty officer."

18             Just remind us again, what's "Zlatar" and "Palma"?

19        A.   "Zlatar" is the telephonic code-name for the Drina Corps Command.

20     "Palma "is the telephonic code-name for the Zvornik Brigade Command.

21        Q.   All right.  And the Palma duty officer says:

22             "500 litres of D2 for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic."

23             And then Zlatar says:

24             "For Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?"

25             Palma says:  "Yes."

Page 16816

 1             Then apparently the line disconnects, and it starts up again, and

 2     there's reference to a Basevic.

 3             And Palma says:

 4             "Hello, is that Basevic?"

 5             And then B says:

 6             "Yes, it is."

 7             Do you know a Basevic?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   Who would that have been, in your view?

10        A.   Major Basevic was an officer of the Drina Corps Command who

11     worked in the Rear Services or Logistics Department.

12        Q.   All right.  And it goes on, and it says -- Palma says:

13             "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is here at Palma, you know."

14             What does that mean?

15        A.   Again, taking what we know "Palma" stands for, it's a -- the

16     correspondent essentially reporting that Colonel Popovic is at the

17     headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade or at least in the Zvornik Brigade

18     area.

19        Q.   Okay.  It goes on to repeat that:  "Popovic is at Palma."

20             And then Palma goes on and says:

21             "500 litres of D2 are urgently being asked for him or else the

22     work he's doing will stop."

23             Basevic says:

24             "Well, fuck him, don't you have 500 litres of oil?  They're

25     asking for two tons loaded."

Page 16817

 1             On 16 July at 1358 hours, what do you believe Popovic's work is,

 2     as referenced in this intercept?

 3        A.   My opinion is that his work is related to the transportation of

 4     the Bosnian Muslim men from the school in Pilica to the site at Branjevo

 5     Farm where they're subsequently being executed.

 6        Q.   Well, let's go on a bit, and we'll ask you how you come to that.

 7             But we see that Palma says:

 8             "Well, I don't know.  He just called me from the field and told

 9     me to pass you the message over there."

10             What do you make of that, "he called me from the field"?

11        A.   That line further notes that he's not physically standing or in

12     the brigade headquarters at the time, but that he is passed a message

13     through another means to the Zvornik Brigade, in this context the duty

14     officer, to make his request through Palma, the Zvornik Brigade Command,

15     to the Drina Corps for action.

16        Q.   Is that consistent where you believe he is?

17        A.   Yes, sir, in the context of what's happening on the ground and

18     where I believe he is, which would be in the 1st Battalion area, in the

19     Zvornik Brigade area, yes, sir.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's turn the page to the next page in the English.

21             And it's talking about:

22             "Two tonnes are arriving now at your place.  You can't find

23             oil."

24             It says:

25     "Should I deliver by helicopter?"

Page 16818

 1             It says:

 2             "Well, then get in touch with Rocevic."

 3             Do you know what that -- is there any idea what that means,

 4     "Rocevic?

 5        A.   I'm not sure whether it's referring to an individual or a place.

 6     I'm not familiar, off-hand, with an officer named Rocevic, but it has

 7     been a few years.

 8        Q.   All right.  It goes down, and Palma says:

 9             "Yes, I did, and who is that, is that the duty officer?"

10             And then C says:

11             "The switchboard."

12             Then Palma says:

13             "Give me the operations duty officer."

14             It says:

15             "Is Major Golic there by chance?"

16             C says:

17             "Yes."

18             Palma says:

19             "Let me talk to him."

20             Now, Palma is now saying:

21             "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to contact you.  500

22     litres of D2 have to be sent to him immediately; otherwise, his work will

23     stop."

24             "Pop," what do you think that means, or who is -- what's that a

25     reference to?

Page 16819

 1        A.   "Pop" is a nickname that is often associated with

 2     Colonel Popovic.

 3        Q.   All right.  And again there's another reference that his work

 4     will stop.  We see:

 5             "Yeah, man.  Yeah, 500 litres, or else his work will stop.  Go

 6     on, right away."

 7             "G," which would be "Golic," says:

 8             "Bye."

 9             So Golic, which Golic do you think this is?

10        A.   This is, I believe, Major Golic, one of the intelligence officers

11     from the Drina Corps Command.

12        Q.   All right.  And then another conversation starts off with Palma

13     and:

14             "A bus loaded with oil is to go to Pilica village.  That's it."

15             X says:

16             "500 litres?"

17             P says:

18             "No, it should go with its fuel tank from the vehicle battalion."

19             Now, this reference to Pilica, how do you fit that into your

20     conclusion of what Popovic is doing and where?

21        A.   In the context of activities related to prisoners, on the 16th of

22     July there are only two primary activities.  One is the continued efforts

23     to bury the bodies from the prisoners who are at Rocevic and who are

24     killed in Kozluk.  The second one is the process that occurs throughout

25     the morning and day, where the prisoners are being taken from the Pilica

Page 16820

 1     School to Branjevo.

 2        Q.   Well, this is 1358 hours on the 16th, and you have described what

 3     you had learned of the fierce combat at Batkovica.  And I think you had

 4     mentioned and the Court has heard that a corridor got opened up at about

 5     that time, and here we have fuel taken to Pilica.  Can you relate to us

 6     whether or not this fuel and Popovic could be related to these combat

 7     activities that are clearly a part of this case now that are going on at

 8     Baljkovica?

 9        A.   They're not related.  Simply, when one looks at a map, which, of

10     course, I don't have, and looks at the terrain and the locations of where

11     the column is going out, and going through the 7th, 4th, and

12     6th Battalions out to ABiH-held territory, and then one looks at where

13     the 1st Battalion in Pilica is, it's quite clear that they are

14     geographically separated by a number of kilometres, perhaps 20

15     kilometres, and that would be straight line almost.  When one looks at

16     the terrain features and the ruggedness of the terrain, it's evident that

17     the activities that are occurring in Pilica at that time can have

18     absolutely no relationship to the military activities that are occurring

19     in Memici and Baljkovica related to the column.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to remind us, can we go to P2291, which is

21     an illustrated map that is actually to scale and may give us some help in

22     that regard.  And if we could just put it up just to cover the whole

23     page.

24             Is it possible to blow it up one more?  Yes, thank you.  That's

25     helpful.

Page 16821

 1        Q.   Now, first of all, can you remind us where the column of Muslims

 2     is going?

 3        A.   Yes, sir, and I guess I can mark up with this.

 4        Q.   All right.  Wait one second.  And we actually -- there -- okay,

 5     go ahead.

 6        A.   One will note, at the bottom of the map, the series of red lines

 7     [marks] which are depictions of the general route of the column and the

 8     various units that are impacted; the 7th Battalion, the 4th Battalion and

 9     the 6th Battalion [marks].

10        Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop.  For the record, have you outlined the

11     red lines in red, and you underlined the various battalions.  Can you

12     tell us, is this map one that was done in your time, do you recall?

13        A.   Yes, sir, it was.

14        Q.   And is this accurate, as far as you know, as to the approximate

15     locations of the battalions and the route of the column?

16        A.   Yes, sir.  This particular map graphic is derived from a much

17     more complex and detailed military map that was seized by the Office of

18     the Prosecutor from the headquarters of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade,

19     which laid out the route of the column as well as the areas and the

20     defence lines of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade as they looked in July of

21     1995.  So I'm familiar with the basic map that these particular graphics

22     are derived from.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And that military map is in evidence,

24     Mr. President and Your Honours.  I believe we provided you a hard copy of

25     it.

Page 16822

 1        Q.   Could you underline "Pilica" for us that you think is the

 2     "Pilica" referred to in that intercept that we just had up there?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.  If one then goes from where these locations are, the

 4     7th and the 4th and the 6th Battalion, which are the southern areas of

 5     the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and goes all the way north -- to the

 6     extreme northern end of the Zvornik Brigade, one sees the 1st Battalion

 7     and, even further to the east, the complex of the school at Kula, and

 8     Pilica, and Branjevo [marks].  So it is based on that particular

 9     situation, and understanding this, that I conclude that the activities

10     that are occurring in Pilica, Kula, and Branjevo cannot be related to

11     military activities that are occurring against the column much further to

12     the south-west.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this drawn map, where he has

14     circled the area up north in the 1st Battalion and the Pilica Kula school

15     area.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The map with the markings will be received as an

17     exhibit.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, marked map under

19     Exhibit P2291 shall be assigned Exhibit P2548.  Thank you.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I see it's time for the break, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, I would agree.

22             We must have our break now, and we will resume quarter past 4.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

Page 16823

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we continue with Mr. Butler's testimony,

 2     the Chamber would like to issue an oral decision on the Prosecution's

 3     supplemental motion for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and

 4     witness list, filed on the 15th of June, 2011, whereby the Prosecution

 5     seeks leave to add 13 documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and to

 6     amend its 65 ter witness list in order to expand the scope of

 7     Witness Blaszczyk's anticipated testimony and to add an additional

 8     individual to the list.  Since the Prosecution may apply for protective

 9     measures for this individual, the Chamber will refer to this individual

10     as Witness X.

11             The Defence submitted a response to the motion on the 11th of

12     July, and the English version was filed before the Chamber on the 13th of

13     July, 2011.  The Defence submitted that in principle, it did not object

14     to the Prosecution's motion, on the condition that it be given sufficient

15     time to analyse the proposed documents and prepare for the testimony and

16     cross-examination of the two proposed witnesses.

17             The Chamber has reviewed the 13 documents the Prosecution

18     identified in its motion and which it seeks to add to the Rule 65 ter

19     exhibit list.  It has satisfied itself that the documents are of

20     prima facie relevance and probative value to the charges against the

21     accused.  It notes, however, that three of these documents have, in fact,

22     already been admitted into evidence.  These are Exhibits P2427, through

23     Witness Milomir Savcic, and the Exhibits 2515 and P2518, both through the

24     current witness, Richard Butler.  By this decision, the Chamber grants

25     the Prosecution's request to add the remaining ten documents to the

Page 16824

 1     exhibit list.

 2             Further, the Chamber is of the view that it would be in the

 3     interests of justice to grant the Prosecution's request to add Witness X

 4     to the witness list and to expand the scope of Witness Blaszczyk's

 5     anticipated testimony.  The anticipated evidence of Witness X concerns

 6     his position in the Main Staff Sector for Intelligence and Security and

 7     his relationship vis-a-vis the accused, as well as his involvement in the

 8     events relating to the disappearance of a victim named in the indictment.

 9     Witness Blaszczyk is expected to give evidence concerning the chain of

10     custody of the documents added to the exhibit list by this decision.  The

11     Chamber has satisfied itself that such evidence is prima facie relevant

12     to the charges against the accused, and hereby grants the Prosecution

13     motion with regard to Witness X and Witness Blaszczyk.

14             In order to ensure that the Defence has sufficient time to

15     prepare for the upcoming testimony of the two witnesses and to review the

16     documents the Prosecution intends to use with them, the Chamber directs

17     the Prosecution that these witnesses be called at the end of the

18     Prosecution case, following the last witness listed by the Prosecution in

19     its submission of witnesses for the month of August, which was filed on

20     the 15th of July, 2011.

21             Having decided to grant the Prosecution's motion, the Chamber,

22     nevertheless, would like to refer the Prosecution to its submission in

23     court on the 4th of July, transcript page 15992, suggesting that there

24     not be a need to recall Witness Blaszczyk.  The Chamber leaves this

25     matter in the hands of the Prosecution.  And while it grants the

Page 16825

 1     Prosecution motion with regard to this witness, it welcomes any reduction

 2     of the remainder of the Prosecution's case.

 3             This concludes this decision.

 4             At this point in time, I would kindly ask Mr. McCloskey about the

 5     remainder of his examination-in-chief of the current witness, Mr. Butler.

 6     You have extended the estimated time by many, many hours already, and

 7     taking into account the length of the cross-examination of this witness

 8     by Mr. Tolimir, we need a new updated indication of the remaining time.

 9     For sure, we will not be able to finish with the testimony of this

10     witness before the summer recess, but there can't be an unlimited time

11     for the examination by both parties.

12             Mr. McCloskey, can you give us an update?  And before you

13     respond, I would like to make one observation.

14             You have, with some documents which are already in evidence,

15     dealt with every word of, for instance, an intercept or another document.

16     Perhaps you can reduce the topics and the matters raised with the witness

17     in your examination.  Up to now, you have used 22 hours and 11 minutes of

18     your 15 hours indicated at the beginning.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

20             As I'd mentioned the other day, my estimate was based on the

21     Popovic testimony, and I'd reduced my documents from, I believe, about

22     230 in that to 190.  And so the only thing I can think of is just the

23     speed which we're going.  Given that that's how many documents I have

24     left [indicates], about an inch, it's important material right on point

25     with the crimes and the activities of these times.  I hope -- if I'm

Page 16826

 1     realistic, I should finish sometime tomorrow.  I'm hoping that we finish

 2     sometime tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was hoping you will be able to finish today.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, I am so tired, I would love to finish today,

 5     Mr. President, and I will try to take into account what you're saying.

 6     And sometimes when I paraphrase, it's harder for the court reporter, and

 7     I don't want to leave out key items.  But I will try to keep this as to

 8     the point as possible and hope to get through, but I just -- I can see

 9     the number of documents.  I just don't see us being able to do that, but

10     we'll give it our best try.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.

12             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence encourages

13     the Prosecution to use as much time as necessary for this witness.  We

14     are aware of the slowness of the process and why that is the case.  The

15     Defence, however, is going to insist on the equality of arms; i.e., the

16     Defence will request the same number of hours for the cross-examination

17     as was used for the examination-in-chief.  We understand why this is

18     lasting a long time.  There are a lot of grounds to cover.  In the

19     Popovic case, there were a lot of stipulations and a lot of agreed facts.

20     In this case, for understandable reasons, these things lack, and that is

21     why this examination-in-chief is going to last, and we appreciate that.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is exactly the reason for my concern.  And,

23     of course, we will, as I indicated earlier, protect the rights of the

24     accused and observe the equality of arms.  No doubt about that.  But that

25     will take us, I'm afraid, into the beginning of September with this

Page 16827

 1     witness.  We have only one week in August left for hearings, perhaps one

 2     or two days more.  But if I'm not mistaken, this is the eighth day of

 3     testimony of this witness, if it is not the ninth.

 4             I would kindly invite you, Mr. McCloskey, to shorten your

 5     examination as much as possible.  Perhaps you can finish after the first

 6     session by tomorrow, if that is possible.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I will try, Mr. President, but I can tell you the

 8     reason it's so slow is because I am speaking so slowly.  It's completely

 9     unnatural for me.  We would have been done in five days.  I know that for

10     a fact.  That's why this is taking so long.  And I have no problem with

11     it, but please understand that.  It's because we're going so slowly.

12     But --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But we know that you are able to speak much more

14     fast, I know that, but -- and we appreciate, for the sake of the

15     interpreters and the court reporter, the speed you are talking.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, we have spoken briefly with

17     Mr. Butler and the Court Officer so he is aware of that first day when

18     we're back into court, and so the logistics of him coming back then are

19     already in place.  So we hope that that is where we're going to be able

20     to take off.  We're waiting to hear -- I think Mr. Butler's probably

21     waiting to hear from the judges that are waiting for him in the United

22     States and his employer, but that's the plan, and the Court Officer is

23     helping us with that logistical issue so that he can come back and start

24     right away and the general can get full cross-examination.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness should be brought in, please.

Page 16828

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Butler, our apologies for the delayed start

 3     to the second session.  We had to discuss some procedural matters.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir, I understand.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Also in relation to your testimony and the length

 6     of your stay here in The Hague.

 7             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             Could we go now to 65 ter 839.  It should be at 172 in the tab.

10        Q.   And I can see you reviewing that, Mr. Butler.  Can you tell us

11     what this document is and how it relates to the previous conversation, if

12     at all, in your view?

13        A.   This particular document is related to the previous conversation,

14     in so much that it represents the work and accounting of the

15     Zvornik Infantry Brigade's technical services people and rear services

16     organ to properly disburse 500 litres of D2 and to account for the

17     remainder of it coming back to Colonel Popovic.  As I've indicated in my

18     prior testimony, the fact that people like Colonel Popovic or

19     Colonel Beara or others were involved in unlawful acts, they were still

20     operating within a military organisational bureaucracy, and that various

21     rules and procedures with relation to fuel, technical services, and other

22     equipment had to be followed and properly accounted for.  So this

23     particular document illustrates that.

24        Q.   And we can see at what is numbered Box 15, under "Addressee

25     Station," that it's for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic; is that your

Page 16829

 1     understanding?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  Box 15 says "KDK," commander of the Drina Corps, and

 3     then 15 states "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic."

 4        Q.   And the "Request Approved" box says "500," and do you tie that to

 5     the previous intercept?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.

 7        Q.   Who, in your view, is the "Captain S. Milosevic" that is referred

 8     to in the middle of the page; do you recall?

 9        A.   Captain Milosevic is the assistant commander for Rear Services of

10     the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

11        Q.   All right.  And we see, in the left-hand corner, it's handwritten

12     "16 July 1995."  That's clearly the date of the previous intercept.  But

13     at the bottom, we see handwritten "17 July."  How do you account for that

14     difference?  Could this be a 17 July document and, therefore, not related

15     to this intercept?

16        A.   No, sir.  I take this as 16 July, related to the intercept.

17     Again, it's a process that occurs.  And one part of the accounting

18     process occurred on 17 July, and there's a separate signature of an

19     "M. Krstic" who is a Zvornik Brigade chief of Technical Services during

20     this time.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer this into evidence.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 839 shall be

24     assigned Exhibit P2549.  Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to P342.

Page 16830

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please leave the document on the screen for a

 2     moment.  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I'm a little bit lost.  I can see the reference to

 4     what is in Box 14 and 15, and the "500 litres," and "Captain Milosevic,"

 5     but I don't see the date, "16th July."  Can you assist me to locate that?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.  If you look at the very top lines,

 7     Box number 6.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you, I've got it.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've just noticed

12     something.  Translation of Column 8 [as interpreted], I believe, in the

13     original, in Serbian, we have number "500," which is crossed out, but in

14     translation that is not reflected correctly, or at least it looks like

15     this number, "500," is crossed out.  I don't know if that may be of some

16     significance or not.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if you allow me, I can go into

19     greater detail with this document.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My problem is that I don't find the Box 8 at the

21     moment.

22             Mr. Gajic.

23             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said "28."

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 16831

 1        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you explain to us, as best you can, your

 2     understanding of how this document works, especially in the amounts of

 3     fuel as they were noted and disbursed here, if you recall?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  Within this document, it notes, in Box 28, 500 litres

 5     requested/approved.  You go down several lines, you will see a remark.

 6     Out of 500 litres, 140 litres were returned unused.  So then in Box 29,

 7     as part of that accounting process, they're reflecting the total amount

 8     of fuel used or consumed, which is 360 litres.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your explanation.

10             Now we should go to the next document.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's an interesting balance, Mr. President.  I

12     will try to reach it.  I know it's -- I have the same concern.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P342 is under seal.  Thank you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Butler, we see a 16 July intercept from 1615 hours,

16     where they recorded a conversation between the Main Staff duty officer

17     and General Mladic.  And it says "General, who was inaudible."  Who do

18     you take that "who" to mean, based on what this says?  Who is inaudible

19     in this conversation?

20        A.   In this context, I believe what they're saying is that

21     General Mladic, they recognise that it's him, but they're not able to

22     understand, for whatever reason, the conversation or the text of -- or

23     the audio portion of what he's saying.

24        Q.   All right.  And we see here that in this one-sided conversation,

25     where we can't hear the general, it says:

Page 16832

 1             "Good day, General, sir.

 2             "Well, it's like this.  I've just sent a telegram to Toso."

 3             What do you think the Main Staff duty officer is talking about

 4     here, and who?

 5        A.   I believe that he's referring to "Toso" as the nickname for

 6     General Tolimir.

 7        Q.   All right.  And I won't read the entire text of this, but we see

 8     here that according to the duty officer, that the president called a

 9     while back and was informed by Karisik that Pandurevic had arranged the

10     passage for Muslims over that territory.  It talks about other things,

11     doing it without authorisation, and I won't read all that out.  But can

12     you tell us, firstly, who do you think the president is in this and who

13     is this Karisik?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Good

16     afternoon to everyone.

17             Could we have the reference for the claim that the "Toso"

18     mentioned in this telegram is a reference to me?  Is there any other

19     indicator that would point in my direction, in view of the fact that this

20     is a completely different theatre of war, not the one where I was ?

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now you are giving evidence, Mr. Tolimir.  You

23     may deal with this question during your cross-examination because it was

24     the answer of the witness.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 16833

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 2        Q.   Mr. Butler, can you remind us why -- and tell us, in this

 3     conversation, why you believe -- or who you believe "Toso" is and why?

 4        A.   As the investigation and interview of various VRS officials

 5     reflect, "Toso" was a nickname for General Tolimir.  Given the context of

 6     the conversation between a Main Staff duty officer and General Mladic,

 7     both of whom would be, presumably, familiar with General Tolimir and his

 8     nickname, I conclude that they're referring to -- when they say "sending

 9     a telegram to Toso," they're referring to sending a telegram to

10     General Tolimir.

11        Q.   Did we just see, on the 15th of July, General Tolimir, aka Toso,

12     sending out a telegram from the Rogatica area?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   And who do you think the president is in this context?

15        A.   In this context, I believe the president is

16     President Radovan Karadzic.

17        Q.   And who do you think Karisik is?

18        A.   Karisik is the acting minister of the interior at the time.

19        Q.   And what, in your view, is being said -- I mean, what is going on

20     here, from this one-sided conversation, in your view, and can you tie it

21     to the events, as you know them, if you can?

22        A.   The con -- again, I keep using the phrase "context," but it

23     always is important to understand, when one looks at an intercept or an

24     order, how it lays into the context of things that are happening on the

25     ground.  But as discussed earlier, Colonel Pandurevic at this time has

Page 16834

 1     made a decision to allow the Bosnian Muslim column to go into ABiH

 2     territory.  This particular intercept reflects the fact that now the

 3     highest levels of the Republika Srpska, the president of the republic in

 4     this sense, have heard or have received indications that this is the

 5     case, and they are making their own inquiries to the army to try and

 6     ascertain what the actual situation is and whether or not Pandurevic has

 7     allowed the column to pass, and, if not, directions that he does nothing

 8     without seeking authorisation first.

 9        Q.   And would this matter be something, in your view, that would be

10     the subject of a telegram or -- to General Tolimir, even if he is in the

11     Zepa theatre somewhere?

12        A.   Given the significance of this particular development, yes, sir,

13     I believe it would.

14        Q.   Can you explain that?

15        A.   The general knowledge of the operational goals with respect to

16     what the military was doing with the column and what their plan was was

17     to continue to militarily attack it in an effort to defeat it and destroy

18     it, if practicable.  The fact that a brigade commander would unilaterally

19     allow what would be thousands of Muslim soldiers to retreat unmolested

20     across his lines and into ABiH territory would have a significant

21     military and political impact within the RS.  These are, you know, issues

22     of, obviously, high enough gravity that President Karadzic has found out

23     about them, and using the phrase "through Karisik," it implies that the

24     Ministry of the Interior, either the MUP police forces on the ground in

25     Zvornik or the RDB internal security services have learned of this

Page 16835

 1     development and have rapidly apprised their political leadership of what

 2     the situation is.  So given the seniority of both the political and

 3     military people who are trying to ascertain what the truth is, makes all

 4     the sense in the world that the senior intelligence officer and security

 5     officer for the VRS is going to be made aware of what the situation is

 6     and what steps are being taken to figure out what the truth is.

 7        Q.   If we throw in the charged offences, and at the same time 1650

 8     hours on the 16th, over a thousand people are being summarily executed at

 9     the Branjevo Farm, and burial operations are going on at Kozluk and

10     Petkovci and Orahovac, would this complication referred to have other

11     implications that the chief of security would need to know about?

12        A.   I'm not sure I quite understand the question.

13        Q.   Does this action that -- the complications of opening the column

14     and potential resources that it may involve, could that interfere or

15     affect the ability to carry out the murder operation in some way or would

16     it be something that the murder -- people conducting the murder operation

17     would want to know about, as they are doing it in this area, in the same

18     area around Zvornik?

19        A.   In terms of timing, if that's what you're leading to, by this

20     particular time, most -- at 1615, most everyone has already been

21     executed.  There may, at this late hour, still be some people left in the

22     Dom of Culture, but by this time most of the actual executions at all of

23     these sites are completed.

24        Q.   Are these people that have been executed or are in the process of

25     being executed people that came, in large part, from this column that is

Page 16836

 1     being let through?

 2        A.   No, sir.  All of these people were individuals that were either

 3     taken into custody at Potocari on the 12th or 13th or those who were

 4     subsequently captured by the VRS at places like Nova Kasaba,

 5     Konjevic Polje, and the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on -- you know,

 6     beginning the 12th through, potentially, the 14th.

 7        Q.   It was a poorly-framed question.  I didn't mean they were taken

 8     at Baljkovica.  I meant that they are the same -- are they the same group

 9     that fled from Srebrenica, aside from the Potocari people?

10        A.   Yes, sir.  Those were the people from the column who were

11     captured on the 12th, 13th, and 14th.

12        Q.   And were there efforts to continue to execute people that were

13     captured from the column on the days after the 16th, 17th, 18th?

14        A.   Yes, sir.  There were.

15        Q.   I think you've discussed those, so I don't need to repeat that.

16     And this is already in evidence, so I'll go on.

17             If we could go to P1089.

18             And we see that this is an interim combat report from the

19     Zvornik Brigade in the name of Vinko Pandurevic.  I won't read it all.

20     Can you just tell us -- paraphrase briefly what this says and how it fits

21     into your analysis.  I think you've talked about it quite a bit, so I

22     don't think we need too much more information on it.  Can you just give

23     us the guts of this as we're looking over it?

24        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, paragraph 1 lays out the situation that he's

25     facing militarily -- that he believes he's facing militarily from the

Page 16837

 1     column, including references to what he believes are the size of the

 2     column as well as the ferocity of the attacks that the column is

 3     undertaking against his subordinate units.

 4             The second paragraph lays out what his units are trying to

 5     accomplish and over what particular areas of terrain, and whether they've

 6     been successful, as well as the casualties they've been taking.

 7             In paragraph 3, he lays out, as a result of the consequences that

 8     are occurring, the decision that he has made to open a corridor along the

 9     line for the column to escape.

10        Q.   Let me stop you there.  In paragraph 3, we see he says:

11             "I have decided, in view of the situation, to open a corridor

12     along the line of three trenches for the civilian population - about

13     5.000 of them."

14             Is there ever a mention in this document that he's also let

15     through army or able-bodied men?

16        A.   Yes, sir.  In a very off-handed way, if one looks at the

17     continuation of paragraph 3, he seeks to -- and it's on the English

18     language second page.  He seeks to kind of hold open the abstract

19     prospect that there's certain a number of soldiers that got out among the

20     civilians.  He is clearly at this stage trying to avoid -- clearly

21     stating the reality, which is that obviously both the soldiers and the

22     civilians accompanying the column have been let through by down-playing

23     the issue of how many soldiers his action has allowed to escape.

24        Q.   This comment in paragraph 6:

25             "I consider that the Krivaja 95 operation is not complete as long

Page 16838

 1     as a single enemy soldier or civilian remains behind the front-line."

 2             What do you make of that reference, especially to the "civilian"

 3     here?

 4        A.   In this, he's referring to the idea that once these lines close

 5     again, he has an awareness that it's not going to be the complete column.

 6     There will still be hundreds of stragglers that are roaming throughout

 7     the territory of a number of the battalions, the 4th, the 6th, and the

 8     7th, who aren't going to be able to make it through the lines within the

 9     24-hour specified time-frame.  So he's already thinking ahead, as part of

10     6, his future proposals as to what he's going to need to -- once the

11     lines are re-established after the end of the cease-fire, to complete the

12     job that he's doing against those military and civilian personnel who,

13     for whatever reason, would not be able to escape through the lines on the

14     16th and the morning and afternoon of the 17th, the period of the

15     cease-fire.

16        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 3020B.  This is a -- I'm sure you

17     know, an intercept that you have spoken about many times.  16 July, 2116

18     hours:

19             "Palma, from Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic, to Rasic, the

20     Operations Centre, and Lieutenant Colonel Popovic asked to be connected

21     with General Krstic at Zlatar, and he was not there, so he asked to be

22     connected to the Operations Centre."

23             Do you recall, Mr. Butler, from earlier in the day who the duty

24     officer was at the Vlasenica Drina Corps headquarters?

25        A.   I believe it was an officer named Rasic.

Page 16839

 1        Q.   That would be correct.  And would that be consistent with this

 2     intercept?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.  It's someone in the duty operations officer [sic] who

 4     would be picking up the phone and engaging conversations; yes, sir.

 5        Q.   And we see that Popovic says:

 6             "Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic speaking."

 7             And then Rasic says:

 8             "Rasic here, can I help you?"

 9             And Popovic says:

10             "Rale?"

11             Rasic says:

12             "Yes."

13             Popovic:

14             "I was just up there."

15             "Yes."

16             "I was with the boss personally."

17             "Yes."

18             "Here where I am ... you know where I am?"

19             "I know."

20             "Well, you got his interim report."

21             What, in your view, is this a reference to?  Where -- when he

22     says I was just up there, and "the boss personally"?

23        A.   I believe that when he says this, he's referring to the commander

24     of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Colonel Pandurevic, and the interim

25     report he discusses is the interim combat report that Colonel Pandurevic

Page 16840

 1     sent to the Drina Corps.

 2        Q.   That's the one we just looked at?

 3        A.   Correct, sir.

 4        Q.   And when he says:  "I was just up there," where do you think he

 5     means?

 6        A.   In this particular context, I believe he's referring to the

 7     forward command post of the Zvornik Brigade, where Colonel Pandurevic

 8     normally would be located during this battle.

 9        Q.   And can you explain to us how you've come to those conclusions?

10     Is there any other materials to indicate -- to help you reach that

11     conclusion?

12        A.   Yes, sir.  Again, through the course of the investigation,

13     several of the phrases, "up there," "where they are," and things of that

14     nature are described.  I'm aware Obrenovic has given some descriptions of

15     them, other officers of the Zvornik Brigade who were interviewed, who

16     explain where Colonel Pandurevic was and what he was doing on these

17     certain days, so again in that part it's constructive analysis.

18        Q.   Do you recall any documents or intercepts where Popovic was

19     requested to go in a particular place that we haven't dealt with in your

20     testimony thus far?

21        A.   I'm finding I'm blanking out at the moment.  I don't believe so.

22     My memory might have to be refreshed on that one.

23        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember that -- was there any ever a point where

24     the Drina Corps had heard about the column or the quarter being opened

25     up, and they were out of touch with Vinko Pandurevic and were trying to

Page 16841

 1     get in touch with him some way?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  I do recall that there is an intercept that's

 3     attributed to the Drina Corps where they are also seeking information

 4     from Colonel Pandurevic, or the Zvornik Brigade even in general, to try

 5     and get confirmation as to what is occurring on the ground on 16 July

 6     specifically related to rumours that Colonel Pandurevic is allowing the

 7     column to go through.

 8        Q.   Do you remember a reference to Popovic being ordered to go there?

 9        A.   I vaguely do.  I just -- I don't remember the entire text of the

10     intercept right off the top of my head, regrettably.

11        Q.   No problem.  Let's look at the rest of it.

12             Popovic says:

13             "It's all just like he wrote ... I was there on the spot and saw

14     for myself he had received some numbers ... well, that's not even

15     important ... I'll come there tomorrow, so tell the general ... I've

16     finished the job."

17             What do you think he's referring to there?

18        A.   I believe in this particular passage of the intercept,

19     Colonel Popovic is referring to two separate things.  First, he's

20     verifying that the situation and the gravity of the situation, as

21     described by Colonel Pandurevic in his report, is accurate.  And when

22     he's talking about receiving numbers, he is referring to reinforcements

23     that arrived to the unit through the course of the day and acknowledging

24     that they've been received as scheduled.  The last phrase, however, where

25     he says, "I've finished the job," I believe that he's referring to his

Page 16842

 1     particular job, which is the completion of the execution of the Muslims.

 2        Q.   All right.  And we see some other back and forth, and then he

 3     says:

 4             "Well, in general terms, there weren't any major problems.  But

 5     up there, there were horrible problems, and that thing the commander

 6     sent, it was just the right thing."

 7             Then Rasic says:

 8             "Good."

 9             And he says:

10             "Just the thing ... horrible ... it was horrible."

11             What is your interpretation of those sentences?

12        A.   When I first discussed this particular intercept during the

13     Krstic case, it was my conclusion that when he was using the phrase "up

14     there," he was talking up north in a geographic sense.  Subsequent to

15     that testimony and during later testimony in other cases, after hearing

16     from Dragan Obrenovic referring to the same thing, what Colonel Obrenovic

17     at the time explained, and which makes more sense, is that when they are

18     talking about geographic terms "up" and "down," what they are referring

19     to in this context is within the Zvornik Brigade, the terrain as it

20     slopes from the low ground near Zvornik and the Drina River to the higher

21     ground, where the IKM and the battle-fields were.  So in this context,

22     it's more appropriate to read it, when he says "up there," he's talking

23     about "up there" in the sense of the forward command post and where the

24     battle-fields were.

25        Q.   So -- but you didn't tell us when you first saw this and talked

Page 16843

 1     about it in Krstic, what did you think the "horrible" was a reference to?

 2        A.   My understanding was the "horrible" was a reference to the scope

 3     of the executions that had occurred in Pilica.

 4        Q.   And now what is your view on that?

 5        A.   It is the scope of the situation at the battle-field of

 6     Baljkovica, Memici, and those places where many Bosnian Serb soldiers

 7     were killed or wounded because of the fighting.

 8        Q.   All right.  And if we could go to the next page in the English

 9     and the next page in the B/C/S, we see a reference to Rasic asked:

10             "Tell me, did anything arrive there from Vidoje Blagojevic?"

11             And then they talk about manpower, and Popovic says:

12             "Yes, it did arrive, but it wasn't brought in on time, and that's

13     why the commander had big problems."

14             Then there's a question:

15             "When exactly did Blagojevic's men arrive?"

16             And we can read the rest, that Rasic tells him, Okay, find out

17     exactly when they arrived and call back.

18             Now, can you tell us, what was your first analysis and testimony

19     about what this meant in the Krstic case, and have you changed your view

20     from that, and why?

21        A.   Yes, sir.  As the background context of the executions at

22     Branjevo Farm, the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic notes that in the

23     morning hours or during the first parts of the execution, that they were

24     undertaken by members of the 10th Sabotage Unit, and that at some point

25     later on in the afternoon, that men or soldiers from Bratunac took over

Page 16844

 1     completing the executions at Branjevo, and after that point the 10th

 2     Sabotage went into Pilica, to the local cafe.  As the investigation

 3     continued and as more intercepts became available and other information

 4     became available, it became clear, at least to me, that in this

 5     particular context of the intercept, what they were referring to was a

 6     group of soldiers that was sent from the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade

 7     into the Zvornik Brigade area, at the request of Colonel Pandurevic, for

 8     reinforcements for the battle-front, and that they're not referring to

 9     people sent for the execution.

10             So based off the additional new information, I changed my

11     analysis of what this particular intercept means to reflect the fact that

12     the people arriving from Blagojevic were not those people who were at

13     Branjevo, executing people, but were instead individuals who were sent

14     and committed into combat operations at some time on the afternoon of

15     16 July.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's -- and I believe I need to

17     offer that into evidence.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3020B shall be

20     assigned Exhibit P2550.  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 3021A.  It's the next, and this is 10

22     minutes after the last one.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be 3021A.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct.

25        Q.   And as we see, it's 2126 hours; participants, Colonel Cerovic and

Page 16845

 1     the Palma duty officer.  And if we recall that Rasic says:

 2             "Okay.  Find out exactly and call me back," when he's asking

 3     about when Blagojevic's men arrive.

 4             Did this intercept have anything to do with your revised analysis

 5     of the previous intercept?

 6        A.   Yes, sir, in the sense that after that particular conversation,

 7     there's a subsequent conversation between the Palma duty officer and

 8     Colonel Cerovic from the Drina Corps, where he is informed in more

 9     specific detail about reinforcements coming from Badem, the telephonic

10     code-name for the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, as well as additional

11     members of various MUP companies that arrive from other locations.

12        Q.   And this information that men arrived from Badem at 1705 hours,

13     is that consistent or not consistent with what Erdemovic said about the

14     time that they arrived, if you can recall?

15        A.   That would be inconsistent, because Erdemovic has testified that

16     it would be before 1705 hours.  I don't believe Erdemovic said they were

17     anywhere this late.  I think they arrived more along the lines of 1300.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

19             I'd offer that into evidence.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3021A shall be

22     assigned Exhibit P2551.  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now go to 65 ter 4051.

24        Q.   And this should be looked at in conjunction with the following

25     document, P394B and P2207, Mr. Butler, for your review.  But we now have

Page 16846

 1     a handwritten document that I believe was retrieved from the Drina Corps

 2     collection, and we see that in the right-hand corner, it's handwritten

 3     and underlined:  "Informed by Tolimir."  It's dated 16 July 1995.  It has

 4     a number, 04/2-30, and it says:

 5             "Sator for Uran and Elektron."

 6             And then we see what it is talking about.  On 16 July, 0300

 7     hours, Muslim armed group attacked UN OPs at various places.  Do you have

 8     any knowledge what "Sator for Uran and Elektron" is right now,

 9     Mr. Butler?

10        A.   Not specifically.  I'm aware that just as the Bratunac -- or just

11     as the brigades had telephonic code-names, they also had code-names that

12     were assigned to them as part of the tactical-level communications radio

13     network.  When I say "tactical communications," I'm talking the

14     battle-field communications, the smaller radios mostly in the VHF range,

15     that were used as another means of controlling and keeping abreast of

16     what was happening at the actual battle sites.  If I recall correctly,

17     "Uran" is the Drina Corps one.  But it's been many years since I've seen

18     the actual communications plan, so I can't be sure.

19        Q.   And that is in evidence, so that's something we can refer to.

20     And looking at the second page in English, again it talks a bit more

21     about people at the UN base and in the elementary school in Zepa.

22             We need to go over in the B/C/S.

23             And it talks about Muslims taking over other observation posts:

24             "Through the UN commander who is in our territory, we called the

25     Muslims to leave.  We'll call them to gather all their men and civilians

Page 16847

 1     at the UN base in Zepa."

 2             What does this have to do with?

 3        A.   From reading it, it looks like a battle-field report, something

 4     that would ultimately be incorporated into a daily or interim combat

 5     report from a particular unit, discussing the situation on 16 July

 6     related to Zepa.

 7        Q.   If General Tolimir was still in the position of the -- in the

 8     Zepa area, would this be the kind of information he may have been aware

 9     of or be able to pass on to someone, as this note says:  "Informed by

10     Tolimir"?

11        A.   Yes, sir, I presume he would.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 4051 shall be

15     assigned Exhibit P2552.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   And could we go to P394B, which we see is an intercept.  It's

18     also dated 16 July.  The time is 1000 hours.  It's between Mico and Toso.

19             Who do you think Mico and Toso are, as you review this intercept?

20        A.   I believe "Toso," again, is a nickname for General Tolimir.  I'm

21     not sure that I can lay out who "Mico" would be in this context.

22        Q.   All right.  And if General Tolimir said in this, I sent you you

23     know what over there via Uran and you send it to me via Uran because this

24     one is not secure.  If Uran is, in fact, the Drina Corps IKM for an

25     operation, what is Tolimir saying here?

Page 16848

 1        A.   Basically, he's indicating that information sent to him should

 2     be -- basically go through that particular headquarters and he will send

 3     his information to that particular headquarters, because he recognises

 4     that this particular communications channel is not secure.

 5        Q.   Does this suggest he knows there is a communication channel that

 6     is secure?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.

 8        Q.   And do you recall, when Tolimir says:  "And to tell Pepo," do you

 9     recall that nickname at all?

10        A.   No, sir, I don't.

11        Q.   All right.

12        A.   It's been a while.

13        Q.   Okay.  And we see that it continues on, where General Tolimir

14     says that:

15             "... I received what he sent me, and if he wants to send me

16     something, he can call Uran on the same line that you are communicating

17     with Uran, and he can relay the telegram for me through it, and you know

18     my call sign."

19             If --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Tolimir just

22     informed me, and I was going through my papers here, but -- and I can

23     follow what Mr. McCloskey is saying, but I don't see it on the monitor.

24     And I believe that in Serbian, it should be on the following page, on

25     page 2.

Page 16849

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Thank you for that, and of course it's also

 4     the hard copy should be in your binder.  I hope everyone has the binders.

 5        Q.   Now, if Colonel Salapura identified himself as "Pepo," would that

 6     be consistent with this intercept?

 7        A.   Yes, sir.  It certainly -- given the fact that we're talking

 8     about General Tolimir, and Salapura is one of his subordinates, yes, sir.

 9        Q.   It goes on, and I won't read all of it, but General Tolimir talks

10     about sending a telegram that they were supposed to receive through Uran.

11     M says he didn't receive it yet and he's going to call him now.  And then

12     they go on and continue to talk a bit more about telegrams, and Tolimir

13     ends up saying at the end:

14             "Call him and then tell Pepo he can send telegrams this way, and

15     I can send it to them."

16             Now, this part at the bottom:

17             "Five minutes later Mico called Jevdo on this frequency and asked

18     about two telegrams he was supposed to forward him.  They agreed that

19     Jevdo was going to send them immediately?"

20             Do you remember Jevdo or a person by the name of Jevdo that may

21     have been involved in communications?

22        A.   Yes, sir.  It would be Milenko Jevdjevic, who was the

23     communications officer for the Drina Corps and who, I'm also aware from

24     his previous statement and testimony, was at the Drina Corps IKM during

25     the military operations related to Zepa.

Page 16850

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  And if we can now go to P2207.

 2        Q.   This is another handwritten document, and this time it's got up

 3     in the left-hand corner "Command of the Drina Corps IKM Krivace," and

 4     it's dated the 17th, the next day, from what we've just seen, and it

 5     talks about a radio conversation with Avdo Palic.  And I won't go into

 6     the details of that, but it's -- this radio conversation was reported by

 7     General Tolimir.

 8             What is your view of -- we now see General Tolimir addressing a

 9     document like this, where previously, I think you'll recall, we saw

10     documents from the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade or -- can you make

11     anything out about where General Tolimir would be or anything related to

12     the previous two documents which involve the Drina Corps IKM?  What, if

13     anything, can you -- can you help us out with on this, Mr. Butler?

14        A.   While it's not clear what his precise location is, it does

15     reflect the fact that wherever General Tolimir is physically located,

16     that it's been determined that for passing messages and information back

17     and forth, the closest proximity between where General Tolimir might be

18     and a secure means of communication is going to be the Drina Corps IKM.

19        Q.   All right.  Now let's go to P378A.  We'll skip a document.  We're

20     now at 181, tab 181, P378A.  It's from the 17th, 1244 hours, X and Trbic.

21             Trbic answers:

22             "Yes, can I help you?"

23             X says:

24             "Tell me, is Pop there?"

25             Trbic says:

Page 16851

 1             "No."

 2             "You don't know where he is?"

 3             "Well, he went there to -- towards that task."

 4             X says:

 5             "North of you?"

 6             What is your viewpoint, as we read down through this intercept?

 7     What is going on here?

 8        A.   In this discussion, "Pop," being Colonel Popovic, somebody is

 9     looking for Colonel Popovic.  He's speaking with Trbic, who is the

10     assistant to Drago Nikolic as a security officer, and Trbic is explaining

11     that Popovic is not physically here, "here" being the location the

12     Zvornik Brigade headquarters at Standard, and indicating that he's

13     dealing with a task north.  Or X actually asks the question, North of

14     you, and Trbic confirms that.

15        Q.   And the previous document, P552A indicated that Trbic identified

16     himself as the duty officer.  So can you tell us what the investigation,

17     in your view, of documents has borne out that was going on north of where

18     Trbic was on 17 July that Popovic may have been involved -- or "Pop" may

19     have been involved in?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  They were still continuing or finishing burial

21     activity at Rocevic as well as burial activity at Branjevo Farm.

22        Q.   All right.  And we see there's a request by X for Pop to get in

23     touch with him.

24             X says:

25             "I know it is.  Drago told me."

Page 16852

 1             Sorry, but -- Trbic says:

 2             "But it's very hard for me to do that."

 3             And X says:

 4             "I know it is, Drago told me, but ... I don't think of it that

 5     way."

 6             What do you take that to mean?

 7        A.   It's talking about physically getting in touch with

 8     Colonel Popovic.  The nearest phone line or secure phone line, military

 9     one, would go to the 1st Battalion headquarters, which is not near

10     Branjevo, so in order for anybody to get in touch with Colonel Popovic at

11     Branjevo, they're going to either have to take a vehicle and drive

12     directly to where he is, or they're going to have to relay a message

13     through wherever the nearest battalion or other military installation is

14     that's connected to a switchboard.  So it's just reflecting the fact that

15     wherever Colonel Popovic is, he is not near or he does not have ready

16     access to a phone.

17        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document, P379A.  It's just five

18     minutes later.  It's X and Trbic.

19             X says, It's changed again, and to get in touch with him and let

20     him finish that work.  What does this mean, to your -- in your view,

21     briefly?

22        A.   Whoever has been looking for Colonel Popovic has changed their

23     mind and now decided that rather than immediately have Popovic report to

24     them or him, that he wants Popovic to complete the work that he's doing,

25     and then only after he's done, he can then report back to whom he needs

Page 16853

 1     to.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 3043.  This is

 3     this same day, but at 1622 hours.  It's between -- 3043A, 1622 hours,

 4     between Popovic and Y.  And I won't read it all.  We just hear that:

 5             "Popovic:  Hello, it's Popovic, boss ... everything is okay ...

 6     that job is done ... everything's okay."

 7             "No problems," and gets an A, an A, the grade is an A, everything

 8     is okay, and:  "Bye."

 9             Who -- what, in your view, is Popovic talking about at this

10     point, and who would he be talking to and referring to as "boss," in your

11     view?

12        A.   In my view, the fact that he's used the phrase "boss" reflects

13     the fact that he is speaking to his immediate commander, which in this

14     case would be General Major Krstic, the Drina Corps commander.  He talks

15     about at the place that he was at that base, so I infer that to mean that

16     where he is at the moment he's having this conversation is at the Zvornik

17     Brigade headquarters.

18        Q.   And do you know or recall what the investigation revealed about

19     this small note at the bottom, where the interpreter heard French being

20     heard in the background?  Sorry, the intercept operator noted that:

21     "French is heard in the background."

22        A.   I know that that was an issue that the investigation did look

23     into.  I don't recall what the results would be, off-hand, of that.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer that into evidence.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

Page 16854

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3043A shall be

 2     assigned Exhibit P2553.  Thank you.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And can we go to 65 ter 1780.

 4             And, Mr. President, the next series of documents has to do with a

 5     particular section in the -- a crime charged in the indictment.  I

 6     believe we've referred to it as the Nezuk executions.  So it does get a

 7     little bit lost in the maze, but this is a specific reference, as we'll

 8     get to.

 9        Q.   We see a Main Staff document from 15 July, from General Miletic,

10     talking about the dispatch of a unit to the 1st Zvornik Brigade from the

11     1st Krajina Corps.  Can you briefly explain this and how that fit in, if

12     you can recall, to what was going on at the time, just briefly?

13        A.   Yes, sir.  Once the senior leadership of the Drina Corps and the

14     Main Staff recognised the gravity of the military situation developing in

15     Zvornik during the evening hours of 14 July, there were a number of

16     actions that were done where various military and police units that could

17     be readily made available were ordered to go to the zone of the

18     Zvornik Infantry Brigade and were placed under the command of

19     Colonel Pandurevic for the duration of those military operations.  This

20     particular document reflects one company of the 1st Krajina Corps being

21     made available as part of the general reinforcements.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer that into evidence.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3043A -- oh, pardon

25     me -- 1780 shall be assigned Exhibit P2554.  Thank you.

Page 16855

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we now go to 65 ter 388.

 2        Q.   This is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps, by its commander,

 3     ordering that a unit go to the Zvornik Brigade.  Is that consistent with

 4     the previous document and what you know about the investigation?  Did

 5     they actually go?

 6        A.   Yes, sir, it is consistent.  And, yes, sir, this unit actually

 7     did deploy.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go to P14 -- I'm sorry, that --

 9     I'd offer that into evidence.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  65 ter 388 will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 388 shall be

12     assigned Exhibit P2555.  Thank you.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   And to try to save a little time:  Mr. Butler, we see from the

15     next tab it's a section from P1459, page 109, that there is a note in the

16     Zvornik Brigade duty officer note-book about -- that men from the 16th

17     Krajina are at TT602 and that Obrenovic should be informed.  What is a

18     "TT602"?  The interpreters told us "trig point."

19        A.   Yes, sir.  On maps, military or civilian, there are established

20     points on the ground that correspond to points on the map that are often

21     used for surveying.  In this particular context, they've -- often they're

22     hills or other locations, but in this particular one, he's basically

23     using -- rather than exactly identifying where the unit is, he's

24     basically saying they're at a certain trigonometric point, it's probably

25     Hill 602 or Trig Point 602.  I mean, it's a fixed location on a map.

Page 16856

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's break time, Mr. President, and we're

 2     getting -- we're getting closer.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have on the screen

 5     both versions in English, and I believe the Serbian transcript should be

 6     on page 108.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.  Thank you very much.  No, it's

 8     the wrong page.  [Overlapping speakers]

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't really think it's necessary, frankly.  I

10     was trying to save some time, but --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But during the break, somebody may look at it.

12             We must have our second break, and we'll resume quarter past

13     6.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Could we go to 65 ter 322.

19        Q.   This is a combat report from the Zvornik Brigade of 19 July 1995,

20     under the name of Vinko Pandurevic.  Now, I just -- in paragraph 2 of

21     this, it talks about:

22             "All available units (POSS, a company of the 16th Krajina ..."

23             Can you relate this reference to the 16th Krajina to the unit

24     we've been talking about that was sent to Zvornik?

25        A.   Yes, sir, this is that unit.

Page 16857

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer this into evidence.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 322 shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2556.  Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 2215.  And this is a

 6     Main Staff report to the president.

 7             If we could go to the Drina Corps section.  It should be page 4

 8     in the English, and it's paragraph 6 in the B/C/S.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it this is behind tab 192.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  We've skipped ahead a bit.

11        Q.   And there's a reference in here that:

12             "At 1930 hours, we received information that the enemy were

13     building rafts in the Crni Potok sector, escaping to the right Drina

14     bank."

15             31 July, Muslims going over rafts to the right-side bank of the

16     Drina, what do you connect this to, if you recall, Mr. Butler?

17        A.   I'm sorry, you were going a little bit too fast for me.  What are

18     we -- where are you in this document?

19        Q.   We went to 31 -- we're in 31 July.

20        A.   Right.

21        Q.   At the Drina Corps, page 4.  We now have Muslims building rafts

22     and going across the Drina.  And you can look into the couple of

23     intercepts after that that you would have reviewed along with this

24     document, if you remember.

25        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, in this particular context, after the fall of

Page 16858

 1     the Zepa enclave, several thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers from the

 2     former 28th Division sought -- rather than to put themselves in the

 3     custody of the VRS, they broke out first over land, but actually in a

 4     direction that would bring them to Serbia.  So there was a concerted

 5     effort to break out across the Drina River and then ultimately place

 6     themselves in the custody of the Government of the Federal Republic of

 7     Yugoslavia at the time.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  And I would offer this into evidence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2215 shall be

11     assigned Exhibit P2557.  Thank you.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we go to P345.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This is a confidential document and should not be

14     broadcast.  Thank you.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   This is an intercept from August 1st, with a person named Jevtic

17     from Serbia, and Stevo, and Ljubisa Beara from the Main Staff.  And again

18     I won't go over this, but we see that Stevo is saying:

19             "Listen, why do you let these Turks swim towards you?"

20             And if we go on to the second page in the English, they continue

21     to talk on that subject.

22             And S says:

23             "And do keep in touch.  Beara is going to call you."

24             And then as we go down, we -- to the third page in English, we

25     see:

Page 16859

 1             "Hello, good morning.  Ljubo Beara speaking."

 2             And they're talking about -- we see:

 3             "Let me tell you," is this what -- this person, J, is telling to

 4     Beara.

 5             "... we and our blue guys, what we catch, we process.  And if

 6     they're interested, we hand them over."

 7             What do you think there -- Beara is talking about here with this

 8     person?

 9        A.   Beara is talking about a process by which individuals who've

10     crossed the Drina River and who are in FRY territory, about how the FRY

11     might turn some of those people back over to the Republika Srpska, and,

12     in fact, as it's listed here, notice that they've already done that on

13     several occasions.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to the next document, which

15     is 65 ter 3208A.  We're now on August 2nd, and it's another intercept

16     between someone they called Mandzuka and General Krstic.

17             And again we see that Mandzuka is saying:

18             "We just have a few down in the creek.  Some of them have gone

19     through, about a thousand of them."

20             Krstic says:

21             "You shouldn't have let any of them escape."

22             Then:

23             "We didn't dare to cross over into the other state.  We just

24     checked the terrain by helicopter yesterday.  It's pretty inaccessible.

25     Did you see how the Serbian ministers accepted them over like liberators?

Page 16860

 1     Even the Red Cross came."

 2             And look at the rest of that, and it talks about 2.000 -- Beara

 3     went over there to Serbia.  He'll take care if there's some captured and

 4     dead.  They threw away their weapons.

 5             What's this?

 6        A.   This is, at this point in time, a reflection that General Krstic

 7     and whomever Mandzuka is are discussing their displeasure about the fact

 8     that various individuals in Serbia have made decisions that they're not

 9     going to immediately turn Bosnian Muslims from Zepa back over to the

10     Republika Srpska.  In fact, they're treating them in accordance with

11     established international law, and the Red Cross is given access to them.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'll offer that into evidence.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, it will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 3208A shall be

15     assigned Exhibit P2558.  Thank you.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now we're at P528B.

17        Q.   This is a still August 2nd intercept, 1240 hours, between Krstic

18     and Popovic.

19             We see Krstic talking to Popovic and saying:

20             "Go over to Bajina Basta, you and Kosoric.  You know what you

21     have to do."

22             Remind us where Bajina Basta is and who Kosoric is?

23        A.   Bajina Basta is a town on the Serbian side, and "Kosoric" is

24     Svetozar -- in this context, I believe it is Svetozar Kosoric, who is the

25     chief of intelligence for the Drina Corps.

Page 16861

 1        Q.   And we see, two-thirds of the way down, Popovic says:

 2             "He went up there because we had some parcels, to check what they

 3     know."

 4             What do you think that's a reference to?  Again, we hear this

 5     term "parcels."

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  And again "parcels" being a reference to prisoners.

 7     "To check what they know" is a cryptic reference, or maybe not so

 8     cryptic, to interrogating them for information.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  We now go to P529C, still 2 August.

10        Q.   This is Popovic and X, Boss Krle.  And we see what Popovic is

11     saying to Krstic, that:

12             "Well, Beara just called me.  He came back from there this

13     morning."

14             He says:

15             "He gave the report to Miletic."

16             Who would that "Miletic" be, in your view?

17        A.   That would be General Major Miletic, the chief of operations of

18     the Main Staff.

19        Q.   Then we see that Popovic says:

20             "There are 500 to 600 of them ..."

21             What do you think he's referring to?

22        A.   I suspect in this context, what he's referring to is at least one

23     group of individuals who are in custody of the FRY in Serbia.

24        Q.   Then as we look down, there's a mention of Kosoric to go to

25     Bajina Basta.  And as we look at what X -- who do you believe X is?

Page 16862

 1        A.   Krle is a nickname for General Krstic.

 2        Q.   And he tells Popovic:

 3             "And I want you to bring the Turks back ... to me.  Is that

 4     clear, man?"

 5             And Popovic says:

 6             "What if they won't give them?"

 7             Krstic:

 8             "What do you mean, they won't give them?"

 9             "Well, they won't give them, they won't give them."

10             Krstic says:

11             "They're our Turks, man."

12             Popovic says:

13             "Well, the MUP won't allow access ..."

14             Krstic ends up saying:

15             "I'll turn the gun barrels on them.  Did you understand me?"

16             What's Krstic saying here?

17        A.   General Krstic is laying out the fact that he is not pleased

18     about the fact that the Serbian -- or the FRY Ministry of Interior will

19     not permit the VRS to take custody of these Bosnian Muslims who are

20     currently in the FRY.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, that series of intercepts, beginning with that

22     report to the president, we see that Beara and Popovic and Kosoric are

23     mentioned several times in this.  Would this be the kind of activity that

24     General Tolimir would be briefed on, given that those, as we know, were

25     his men involved in this?

Page 16863

 1        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean, the fact that reports are being given to

 2     Miletic, those will obviously be passed to General Tolimir, and it's

 3     expected that Colonel Popovic would keep General Tolimir apprised of --

 4     I'm sorry, Colonel Beara would keep General Tolimir apprised of his

 5     dealings with the Serbian MUP and other authorities in the FRY pertaining

 6     to the prisoners.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Now, can we go to -- it's 65 ter 40,

 8     but I -- I think this is in evidence already.  But just perhaps we can

 9     check that.

10        Q.   But as we're doing that, Mr. Butler, can you take a look at this

11     65 ter 40.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is Exhibit P2281.  Thank

13     you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  So that's not a problem, and I

15     won't -- I think that's self-explanatory and it's been spoken to.

16             How about 65 ter 41.

17        Q.   All right.  Mr. Butler, having in mind what you have seen in the

18     tab, which is the last P document that we just mentioned - it's under

19     197, which is this fuel to go to Milorad Trbic, signed in Ratko Mladic's

20     name - now let's look at this other document that same date.  It's under

21     the name of Colonel Zarko Ljubojecic, and notes:

22             "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff,

23     immediately issue the following quantity of fuel."

24             And is that related to the previous document of fuel going to

25     Milorad Trpic?

Page 16864

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   And if we look at -- is there such a person Milorad Trpic?

 3        A.   Not in the Zvornik Brigade, no.  I don't believe anyone in the

 4     Drina Corps has that name.

 5        Q.   And who would that be, Captain Milorad Trpic, in your view?

 6        A.   That would be Captain Milorad Trbic, who is the deputy security

 7     officer for the Zvornik Brigade.  He is subordinate to Drago Nikolic.

 8        Q.   What does it say to you, if anything, that a security officer of

 9     the Zvornik Brigade is put in charge of such a large amount of fuel in

10     mid-September 1995?

11        A.   Given the context of other information that I'm aware of, the

12     fuel that is being used here, the special engineering tasks that are

13     being discussed, relates to the effort that lasted for almost a month,

14     month and a half, to exhume the primary grave-sites associated with the

15     Srebrenica executions and the effort to remove those remains to more

16     remote locations in and around the Zvornik area, some of them -- or many

17     of them in relatively remote locations, in an effort to hide the evidence

18     of the mass executions.

19        Q.   There's evidence in this case that Milorad Trbic was involved

20     with this, that Vujadin Popovic was involved with this, that

21     Momir Nikolic was involved with this.  In your view, is there any way

22     that General Tolimir would not have been knowledgeable and involved with

23     this process of reburials?

24        A.   No, sir.  Given the gravity of the political impact that the

25     discovery of the mass executions had when they were laid out at the

Page 16865

 1     United Nations Security Council back in August of 1995, and the

 2     implications thereof for both the political and military aspects of what

 3     was happening in the RS at the time, I can't believe that an effort like

 4     this, to essentially exhume all the remains and hide them in order to

 5     attempt to conceal the crime being conducted by a number of security

 6     officers from the Drina Corps, would somehow occur without the bare

 7     minimum knowledge of General Tolimir.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Now, yesterday General Tolimir

 9     objected -- I'm sorry, that one I've forgotten has not been into

10     evidence, so I would offer that second fuel document into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 41 shall be

13     assigned Exhibit P2559.  Thank you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Yesterday, you testified that you believe Milan Stankovic was a

16     member of the intelligence and security branch of the Main Staff, and I

17     want to take you to the 2 May 2011 testimony of Petar Salapura at

18     page 13475 to 13476, where he was asked the question:

19             "Can you briefly name for us the people that worked under you in

20     the Intelligence Administration in 1995?  We're especially concerned

21     about July 1995."

22             He names various people, including Karanovic, Radoslav Jankovic,

23     Slobodan Momlic.  Then he says:

24             "And sometime in June, Milovan Stankovic joined the

25     administration.  He was reassigned to us."

Page 16866

 1             Should Petar Salapura know the assignment of Milovan Stankovic

 2     [Realtime transcript read in error "Milo Stanic"] in the Main Staff intel

 3     branch in July 1995?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  He obviously should know who is working for him.

 5        Q.   All right.  And on the same topic, I'd like to go to the

 6     interview/statement of a man named Dusko Vukotic that was taken on

 7     September 17th, 2001.  And I have a new ERN of -- excuse me, a new 65 ter

 8     number of 7455.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I for a moment ask you and draw your

10     attention to page 74, line 2.  You said:

11             "Should Petar Salapura know the assignment of ...,"  and can you

12     repeat, Mr. McCloskey, the name?  Here we see "Stanic."  Did you say

13     "Stanic" or "Stankovic"?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I meant to say "Stankovic, Milovan Stankovic."

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Please carry on.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   So I would like to take you to page 106 of his

19     interview/statement back in 2001, which -- page 2 in e-court.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is one of the documents which are not

21     yet on the 65 ter exhibit list?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, this is specifically in response to

23     General Tolimir's concern about Mr. Butler's conclusion regarding the job

24     of Milan Stankovic.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it the Defence normally has no objection

Page 16867

 1     to add these documents to the 65 ter exhibit list.  Is that correct,

 2     Mr. Gajic?

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Every document

 4     that can help shed some light will not be objected to.  However, there

 5     may be a miscommunication somewhere.  Perhaps it has to do with a

 6     transcript.  My apologies.  I didn't get a chance to read it through over

 7     again.

 8             Now, the objection was not whether this was in the unit of

 9     Republika Srpska that was mentioned.  It was in a different context.  It

10     had to do with the individuals who were in the Main Staff while they were

11     assigned to Srebrenica and whether at that particular time they were

12     under the command of Zdravko Tolimir.  So I don't think what is at issue

13     here is whether Milo Stankovic was a member of the

14     Intelligence Administration or not.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that, although it was slightly

16     beyond the limit of the scope of matters you should address the Chamber

17     with.  On the other hand, leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter

18     exhibit list.

19             Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.

21        Q.   I just want to make a reference to a section of this interview,

22     which should be up on the -- page 3 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the English.

23     All right, it's the bottom of page 2 in English.  It looks like line 19.

24             First of all, can you tell us, before we get to what

25     Dusko Vukotic says, do you remember who Dusko Vukotic is or was at the

Page 16868

 1     time of July 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  Dusko Vukotic was the head of intelligence for the

 3     Zvornik Infantry Brigade in July of 1995.

 4        Q.   All right.  And we see that Dean Manning asked

 5     Mr. Vukotic -- he's referring to a 17th July document, where there's

 6     three officers from the Main Staff, and I think we'll all agree that

 7     that's the 17 July document where he's mentioned.  And Dusko Vukotic

 8     says:

 9             "I didn't see any of them, but on the 17th, whether I heard him

10     on the radio communication, Milovan Stankovic, that even he spoke to

11     Muminovic, Semso."

12             Is that the proper name, Semso Muminovic, of a person you tried

13     to say earlier?

14        A.   Yes, sir, and he is the ABiH 2 Corps officer who was on the radio

15     first with Colonel Pandurevic, and later with others, dealing with

16     negotiating the cease-fire to allow the column to go out.

17        Q.   Then Mr. Vukotic goes on to say:

18             "I heard him on the communication, and I know his voice because

19     he worked at the time in the Intelligence Administration of the

20     Main Staff of the VRS ..."

21             Now, does that also support your conclusion that

22     Milovan Stankovic was a member of the intelligence branch of the

23     Main Staff?

24        A.   Yes, sir.  And, in fact, given that Dean Manning and I were here

25     at roughly the same time, this might have even, in fact, been the first

Page 16869

 1     indication in my mind that would support that.  I am aware that after I

 2     left, interviews and the testimony of Salapura were done that I was not a

 3     party to.  But, again, I can't go back and tell you exactly what

 4     documents I know at this particular time or what references I'm aware of

 5     that would support my position, but clearly, you know, I do believe that

 6     he is an officer who was part of the intelligence staff there.

 7        Q.   And also in response to what Mr. Gajic just said:  As a member of

 8     the intel unit of the Main Staff, what is his relationship to

 9     General Tolimir?

10        A.   Well, in this particular context, his immediate supervisor would

11     be Colonel Salapura, as the chief of intelligence.  The next higher-up

12     person within his chain would be General Tolimir.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer those two-page sections

14     and only those two pages of Dusko Vukotic's testimony into evidence.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps there are three pages, but the page

16     numbers are indicated in your list of documents.  They will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 7455 shall be

18     assigned Exhibit P2560.  Thank you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, if we go back more days than I can remember now

21     to your discussion of documents related to convoy -- convoy approvals,

22     convoy restrictions, do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes, sir.

24        Q.   And in your binder of convoy materials, there was several

25     documents related to convoy materials that I didn't specifically ask you

Page 16870

 1     about; is that correct?

 2        A.   I recall that there's a group of them that I do not believe that

 3     we got to as part of this.

 4        Q.   And have you been able to review those documents, as they were in

 5     your binder and associated with the other documents?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  And in that context, I've testified about many

 7     convoy-related documents in the Popovic case, and any documents in this

 8     particular case that I reviewed that weren't in the Popovic case, there

 9     should be proofing notes on.

10        Q.   And those documents that were in your binder that you had

11     prepared for, do they basically fit into your basic theory and analysis

12     related to the convoy system and the convoy restrictions that you've been

13     talking about?

14        A.   Yes, sir.  They're generally illustrations or examples of how the

15     convoy process worked, how it was reviewed by various officers at the

16     Main Staff, how particular pieces of cargo were approved, or how in many

17     cases it was either not approved or cargos were reduced.  And as I've

18     testified before, I believe they're all in support of the plan that was

19     laid out under Directive 7 with respect to the enclaves.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, it's my proposal that I

21     provide you tomorrow with the list of those few remaining documents and

22     offer them into evidence, based on the foundation that Mr. Butler has

23     laid by his specific discussion of specific documents, and by what he

24     just said, and from, I think, your understanding and my viewpoint that

25     these convoy documents are, on their face, self-explanatory.  And that I

Page 16871

 1     know the Trial Chamber generally wants a document referred to

 2     specifically prior to entering it into evidence, but I think in this --

 3     perhaps in this particular situation, I would offer them into evidence in

 4     this context to get your ruling.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you able to -- now, first of all, I take it

 6     these are documents contained in Binder number 2?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Absolutely, they are in Binder number 2.  I

 8     skipped around a little bit, as you saw.  And so to be perfectly clear,

 9     it would be best if I could give you those numbers tomorrow.  But they're

10     all in Binder number 2, and I can identify them very clearly tomorrow.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful for the Chamber and for the

12     Defence if you can provide us the numbers of these documents so that we

13     can prepare a decision on that.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  This --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I mean to provide us with the numbers by e-mail

16     sometime during the morning of tomorrow.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's precisely what Ms. Stewart said, and that

18     will not be difficult.

19             And one other topic I just recalled by looking at the

20     Court Officer.

21             I'm told that Mr. Butler has requested to have transcripts of his

22     testimony to be able to review prior to his cross-examination, so I --

23     and there is also some, as you'll remember, some -- a small amount of

24     confidential material.  I've mentioned this to Mr. Gajic, but I -- Gajic,

25     and I just pass that on to you for your decision.

Page 16872

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The transcript is a public document, accessible

 2     for the public.  Is there any objection for the Defence?  Perhaps it

 3     supports the conduct of cross-examination.

 4             What is your position, Mr. Gajic?

 5             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've already shared my

 6     opinion with Mr. McCloskey and told him exactly what you told us.  We do

 7     not object to Mr. Butler receiving the transcript from this trial.

 8     Transcripts are public documents, and I really don't see why Mr. Butler

 9     should not be allowed to peruse them.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  After having considered the situation with

12     Mr. Registrar, your request is granted.  Some parts of this transcript

13     are confidential.  I think nobody has any concern about giving you also

14     this part of the transcript because you were present at that time.  We

15     were in private session for some minor matters, but you should be

16     reminded that you are not allowed to publish these parts of the

17     confidential transcript.

18             THE WITNESS:  That will not be a problem, sir.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             The Registrar is hereby instructed to provide you with a

21     transcript of your testimony up to now.  Thank you very much.

22             Anything else, Mr. McCloskey?

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, thank everyone, thank you,

24     Your Honours.

25             I have no further questions for Mr. Butler, and we'll just

Page 16873

 1     provide you with those numbers tomorrow.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             We will deal with these documents tomorrow, at the beginning of

 4     the session in the afternoon at 2.15 in this courtroom, and then

 5     Mr. Tolimir may commence his cross-examination.

 6             We adjourn.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

10                           July, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.