1 Tuesday, 19 July 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 I see you on your feet, Mr. Gajic.
7 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, and
8 good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom.
9 I just have two brief issues that I would like to raise,
10 housekeeping, and they both relate to interpretation.
11 We've received, actually, translated documents, the documents
12 that had earlier been MFI'd, and we believe that now they can be fully
13 admitted into evidence. If you allow me, I would like to read out the
14 numbers. There are five documents in total. That's D195, D215, D231,
15 D257, and D261.
16 The next issue that I wanted to raise is actually some
18 The CLSS service refused to translate certain documents from
19 English into B/C/S, into Serbian, documents that the Defence intends to
20 use with this witness, Mr. Butler. The document that I'm talking about
21 is on our 65 ter list under 1D924, and we can all see it now in the
22 courtroom. And I believe that we will need your assistance in order for
23 the CLSS to translate this document.
24 I would just like to say as a preface that all of the documents
25 that are admitted into evidence that we are going to use are both in
1 English and Serbian. However, to my surprise, we were informed by the
2 CLSS service that documents are only translated into official languages
3 of this Tribunal; in other words, from Serbian into English, but not the
4 other way around. It is my belief, however, that this Trial Chamber has
5 made a ruling - it was a while back - that all documents that have to be
6 used in the courtroom have to be translated into B/C/S as well.
7 I would just like to read out the Registry translation policy out
8 of that document. That's paragraph 1.4, and it reads:
9 [In English] "Self-represented accused should submit a request
10 for translation of evidence into B/C/S, and where there is no order from
11 a Chamber resolving the question of requests to translate material into
12 B/C/S, the matter will be referred to the deputy chief of CMSS, in the
13 first instance, or the chief of CMSS, if required, and the decision to
14 grant or refuse the request will be agreed upon in a consultation with
15 the chief of CLSS."
16 [Interpretation] Now, since we've already had documents
17 translated from English into Serbian, especially those documents that are
18 submitted by the Prosecution, we believe that the Defence should be
19 treated the same way and that documents that we are tendering into
20 evidence should also be translated. And if, in the future, the Defence
21 had to take upon itself the burden of translating all the documents that
22 we are going to use into Serbian, it would be a tremendous load that we
23 can barely manage. We have done so so far, and we've even translated
24 parts of the transcript, the relevant parts, of course, so far, and there
25 will be just a small number of documents that we intend to tender into
1 evidence that we will request to be translated by the CLSS.
2 The document I'm talking about is 1D924, and this Defence
3 considers this document very important. It relates to the convoys and
4 the UNPROFOR position, and this is the document that CLSS refused to
6 So in conclusion, we would like your assistance to order CLSS to
7 translate this document, 1D924, as soon as possible into Serbian. And,
8 two, if we could have the CLSS informed of the practice in this case, the
9 practice that applies to the Prosecution but that should apply to the
10 Defence as well, and that relates to the translation of documents.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.
12 Does the Prosecution take a position on that?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a strange-sounding situation. I can't
14 imagine why the CLSS can't translate a UN cable, and I think it should be
15 translated. But aside from that, we would stay out of it. I think, of
16 course, the Defence should be able to have English documents of
17 reasonable length that are relevant translated by CLSS.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 It is a serious matter. The Chamber will inquire the background
20 of this conflict and this problem, and we will come back to that matter
21 as soon as possible.
22 In relation to the five documents which have now a translation
23 into English, the first one, D195, was not only marked for identification
24 because of a lack of a translation, but also because the witness,
25 Rupert Smith, was not in a position to testify about the content and to
1 authenticate this document. That happened on the 28th of March this
2 year. Therefore, this document will remain MFI'd. The others, D215,
3 D231, D257, and D261, will now be exhibits in this trial.
4 If there are no other matters to deal with before the witness
5 comes back into the courtroom, he should be brought in, please.
6 Mr. Gajic.
7 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that you're
8 absolutely right. It was my error regarding document D195. And I see
9 the note that I made myself at the time, but I believe that I just made
10 an omission, in view of the other problems we have.
11 Now, if I can just add one more thing before the witness comes
13 You've already seen that we have already 200 days, and in view of
14 the fact that the Defence did not frequently raise issues, such as the
15 one that I raised earlier on, and that we were very efficient in dealing
16 with all documents, regardless of what language they were in, we would
17 really now urge the Trial Chamber to assist us, because if we are unable
18 to obtain documents in translation that are required, this may affect the
19 length of the trial, itself.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I think we understood your position,
22 and we take it very seriously and will deal with that immediately.
23 Welcome back, and good afternoon, Mr. Butler.
24 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, sir.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, the affirmation to tell the truth still
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
3 WITNESS: RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey is continuing his
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 And could we go back to P13, Vinko Pandurevic's interim combat
9 report of 15 July, where we left off. It should be in tab 167.
10 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
11 Q. Just to remind us, you'd testified that the first three
12 paragraphs updated the urgent military situation that Pandurevic was
13 facing. Then you gave us your analysis of the statement:
14 "The additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners
15 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as
16 obligations of security and "restoration of the terrain," or "asanacija
17 terena," as it's in the Serbian.
18 And then the next paragraph states:
19 "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer, as
20 it has neither the material or other resources. If no one takes on this
21 responsibility, I will be forced to let them go."
22 What do you think this is a reference to?
23 A. Well, sir, it has two possible meanings. The first one could be
24 related to the column that is going through. The second one could be
25 related to the issue of prisoners being detained in the schools that were
1 still being detained at this time, although I think the second one is
2 more or less an empty threat, because I can't see somebody such as
3 Colonel Pandurevic effectively releasing 1500 prisoners kilometres behind
4 his own front-lines and deep within his rear area and somehow expecting
5 that they're going to make their way out of his territory into friendly
7 Q. Have you -- personally have your own opinion on which of these
8 two possibilities is the appropriate one?
9 A. I do not believe he's discussing the column here. It is my view
10 that he is making a threat, albeit an empty one, to his superiors related
11 to the prisoners.
12 Q. All right. In the three previous paragraphs, where he talks
13 about the situation, and the forces of the -- the Muslim forces, and the
14 attack that's still progressing, is there any mention at all of the
15 possibility of opening a corridor or allowing any of these Muslims
16 through these lines? Is there any suggestion there in those first three
18 A. No, sir. And, in part, this is why I believe that in the
19 particular context of how this document is written, that Pandurevic is
20 taking the phrase "forced to let them go" and it's referring to the
21 prisoners being detained at the schools in his municipality and not as a
22 result of what's happening with the column.
23 Q. In any of these three paragraphs that we see, the first three
24 paragraphs, or, indeed, the situation in the battle-field at the time, is
25 there any indication that at that point that he's writing this, that
1 Pandurevic actually has some kind of control over or the ability over the
2 Muslims in the woods that are coming in large numbers through his zone?
3 A. Well, he believes he does. He talks about the fact, for example,
4 in the third paragraph, that despite having no reserves, that they have
5 sealed off various areas pertaining to the column. And further down,
6 there is -- I guess it's paragraph 7, just a one-sentence paragraph, he
7 reiterates that while the situation is complicated, it's under control.
8 Q. All right. This next paragraph:
9 "I made an offer to the commander of the other side to separate
10 out the civilians and have the others surrender, but he refused, asking
11 that they should all be released together."
12 How do you analyse this comment in relation to this
13 interpretation of the rest of the document that you've just talked about?
14 A. In this particular context, as we've heard before, there have
15 been references to ongoing communication between Semso Muminovic - I hope
16 I've pronounced that correctly - who was leading Muslim military attacks
17 from the ABiH 2 Corps in an effort to relieve pressure and open a hole
18 for the column to get through, and members of the Zvornik Brigade, to
19 include Colonel Pandurevic when he arrived back there on the early
20 morning -- or in the morning hours of 15 July. Colonel Pandurevic had
21 earlier, at that 1200 meeting with other commanders of the MUP and his
22 own subordinates, ruled out completely letting the column go, and in this
23 particular comment he's making it clear that, you know, he's still not
24 prepared to let the column go in the context that it is, but he's holding
25 open the possibility and laying out his position that, you know, he would
1 accept some kind of agreement where, under some circumstances, the column
2 stops, a cease-fire is declared, and the Zvornik Brigade has the ability
3 to essentially separate those individuals who are members of the former
4 28th Division from those individuals who are considered to somehow be
6 Q. So if that's correct, this paragraph: "I made an offer to the
7 commander ...," is still indicating a refusal to let even the civilians
8 through. When we look at the paragraph above: "I will let the column
9 go ...," is that in contradiction to that, meaning to suggest that "let
10 them go" is the column or consistent with it?
11 A. I believe it contradicts the idea that at this point in time,
12 Colonel Pandurevic is prepared to let the entire column go. I believe
13 what it's accurately discussing is the fact that he's not prepared to let
14 the column go because he's not prepared to accept military personnel in
15 the column escaping, in conjunction with civilians who are believed to be
16 in the column.
17 Q. And to remind us, does that situation for Pandurevic change a bit
18 later, just to remind us of what happens a bit later, and when, how far
20 A. Based on military activity that occurs throughout, primarily, the
21 evening hours of the 15th of July, and the early-morning hours of the
22 16th of July, at some point in the morning or early afternoon of the 16th
23 of July, Colonel Pandurevic changes his view on this subject and believes
24 that the casualties that the Muslim column is inflicting on his
25 particular units are greater than the benefits that his unit is getting
1 for engaging the column, and that he, again without proper authorisation,
2 makes a decision to allow the entire column, to include combatants and
3 civilians, pass through his lines. He does declare that cease-fire 24
4 hours later.
5 Q. And taking you back briefly to Borovcanin's after-action report,
6 where he describes being present in the Batkovica [phoen] area and the
7 Muslims taking Serbs weapons and turning them on the Serbs, do you relate
8 that description by Borovcanin to anything that you've just described
9 that Pandurevic was concerned about when he changed his mind to open a
11 A. Yes, sir. I believe that Colonel Pandurevic's understanding of
12 the situation on 16 July reflects his belief that at that time, his
13 particular brigade, I mean, specifically the 4th Infantry Battalion and
14 the 6th Infantry Battalion, have been particularly hard hit by the
15 column. In fact, the morning of the 16th of July, the 4th Battalion
16 headquarters and command post is actually over-run by the column,
17 resulting in a number of casualties. At the same time, the evening of
18 the 15th and the morning of the 16th, the Zvornik Brigade loses contact
19 with a unit of soldiers that had come up from Bratunac and were literally
20 lost in the woods, and there was fear that this particular unit had, in
21 fact, been wiped out by the column. It later surfaced that they had just
22 been lost and out of radio contact.
23 So when one looks at the battle-field from Colonel Pandurevic's
24 eyes on the 16th of July, it is clear that he sees an extremely complex
25 situation and a situation that is increasingly causing casualties within
1 his units, and I believe it is in that light that he makes the decision
2 ultimately to allow the column to pass.
3 Q. Now, let me take you back to this document. And you've described
4 obligations of security, in your view, mean guarding of the prisoners,
5 and "restoration of the terrain," or as it's said in the original,
6 "asanacija terena," what is your understanding of both the meaning of
7 "asanacija" and the use of the term of "asanacija" as we see it in these
8 documents? Is it the same, is it different?
9 A. The phrase "asanacija" is, from its translation in various
10 military and military medical regulations of the former SFRY, simply a
11 description of the processes that occur where biological hazard material
12 is cleared and disposed of because of the risk of disease to humans. It
13 can be simply something when the military will go into a disaster area
14 and remove livestock that has been killed by some calamity because you
15 can't leave them on a -- you know, a piece of land or real estate because
16 of the threat of disease. It would also include a process of going over
17 a former battle-field that you now control, collecting the dead and
18 burying them. It is simply a military sanitation term.
19 Q. And how do you believe it is -- you've already explained what you
20 believe it means here. What do you believe it means here, and have you
21 seen this term used other ways in these documents, or similar ways?
22 A. I've seen the term used in similar documents related to this
23 always describing the burial of human remains. In this particular
24 document, it is my view that the only thing that Colonel Pandurevic can
25 be talking about here is the burial of Bosnian Muslim prisoners who have
1 been executed.
2 Q. Well, you have, yourself, described that there was fighting going
3 on on the 14th, in the woods, as the approach towards Baljkovica, the
4 15th around Baljkovica, as you've just described. Could this be a
5 reference to going in and cleaning up the battle-field from that combat?
6 A. As a practical matter, one usually waits until the conclusion of
7 combat activities before attempting to bury the bodies of individuals
8 killed in combat. When one looks at the dates that the military attacks
9 were taking place on the 13th and the 14th and the 15th, there's still
10 active combat going on in these locations. It's not practical that the
11 VRS, while they are engaged in combat, in some places on terrain that
12 they don't control, is going to engage in efforts to bury Muslim members
13 of the column who were killed as part of the combat operations. They're
14 certainly not going to be burying Bosnian Serb soldiers on the
15 battle-field in that sense.
16 So when one looks at this phrase and what's happening on the
17 battle-field, it makes no sense that they would be burying battle
18 casualties in that sense. When you couple this with the military
19 engineer records of the Zvornik Brigade, which actually shows where
20 various earth-moving machines are in operation and, in fact, it coincides
21 with locations of mass executions, I believe it becomes quite clear
22 exactly what he was using this phrase in context with.
23 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document. It's 65 ter 143, and
24 this is also an interim combat report, but this time from the Drina Corps
25 to the Main Staff. It's in the name of the commander, General Krstic,
1 and I think any review of this document will show that while it does
2 discuss some attack, there's certainly no reference of Pandurevic having
3 the burden of guarding large numbers of prisoners in schools in his area
4 and his obligation to bury them or do "asanacija." So this information,
5 this is not -- what Pandurevic said to the Drina Corps in his interim
6 report does not appear to be going up through the official interim report
7 of the Drina Corps to the Main Staff if it had been received at this
8 time. Would you expect in this report, or in a later report if the
9 timing didn't coincide, that the Drina Corps would actually communicate
10 in writing similar information that Pandurevic sent to them about
11 guarding and burying large numbers of prisoners?
12 A. Regardless of the timing, I would not expect that the
13 Drina Corps, in its reporting, would report that fact, the security
14 obligations and the "asanacija," to its higher command. Clearly, you
15 know, on two occasions, because of circumstances and the pressure that
16 he's under, Colonel Pandurevic makes these written references in his
17 reports to the Drina Corps, in part, expressing his frustration about the
18 circumstances that he's in the middle of, and on the 18th, you know,
19 seeking to justify his decisions. General Krstic, in this context, isn't
20 feeling that same pressure and frustration, and certainly wouldn't feel
21 that he'd want to put this in writing to the Main Staff.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to the next document. I'm
23 sorry, this does need to be placed into evidence.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 143 shall be
1 assigned Exhibit P2545. Thank you.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. And here at P479, we're back to our chronology and we're back to
4 the Zepa area, a document from General Tolimir, from the Rogatica Brigade
5 area, dated 15 July, to the Security Department of the 1st Krajina Corps,
6 and he is talking about the provision of a loud-speaker to be transported
7 to the Rogatica Garrison by 1500 hours on 16 July. Do you have any idea
8 what this is about?
9 A. In the context of this document, it appears that General Tolimir
10 believes that through the use of, essentially, loud-speakers to transmit
11 propaganda or other messages to the Bosnian Muslim military garrison or
12 military units around Zepa, that he can potentially weaken their resolve
13 to resist or, in fact, even induce them into surrendering in some numbers
14 by promising that they will be cared for, fed, and treated in accordance
15 with the relevant conventions. So this is the technical aspect of him
16 seeking to obtain the relevant equipment that he needs in order to
17 accomplish this.
18 Q. What, if anything, does General Tolimir communicating over this
19 means indicate about his whereabouts and his availability to those that
20 would seek him out to provide him with information?
21 A. It is generally a reflection that he can be found in and around
22 the command post of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade; if not
23 personally there at all times, certainly as a place where messages can be
24 sent and then they will be relayed to him, wherever he happens to be.
25 Q. Okay. Let's get over to the 16th now and go to P845A.
1 Actually, before we get there, I'd like to go to a document that
2 you suggested yesterday. It is the duty officer -- the list of the duty
3 officer of the Drina Corps, and the number for that is 2202.
4 And we're going to have to just look at the screen. I think it's
5 something I removed.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to P2202?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 2202, and the other one is
8 2203. It's a two-part document, but if we could start with 2202.
9 Q. And I think yesterday you were trying to recollect who was the
10 duty officer from the Drina Corps at various times.
11 And if we could blow that up, especially the English, for
12 Mr. Butler to take a look at. And we're interested in the days of -- if
13 we could get 17 across the top in. There we go. That's helpful.
14 I think you mentioned Mr. Cerovic. So can you tell us what
15 this -- first of all, what this document is?
16 A. This particular document looks to be a list of various officers
17 of the Drina Corps, reflecting their name and rank, and then what
18 corresponding days they are scheduled to perform duty in the
19 Operations Centre of the Drina Corps Command.
20 Q. And so according to this, who would have been the duty officer on
21 July 16th, 1995?
22 A. If I read this -- it just disappeared. If I read this correctly,
23 it would be a Lieutenant Colonel Rakic.
24 Q. All right. And if we look at Cerovic all the way across the
25 month, do we see him ever holding the duty officer job?
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. All right. Can you remind us who Cerovic is?
3 A. Colonel Cerovic at this time is the assistant commander for
4 Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs for the Drina Corps.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I would offer this document in
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is 65 ter 2202; is that correct?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Because you were referring to two different
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That one's coming next.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. This will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2202 shall be
14 assigned Exhibit P2546. Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could put 2203 up there.
16 Q. And this, you'll be able to see, is the list of assistants to the
17 duty officer at the Drina Corps. And can you tell us just very
18 briefly - I believe the Court's heard it before - but how does this work,
19 the duty officer and his assistant?
20 A. The duty officer and the assistant, during their performance of
21 duty, their scheduled performance of duty, are the focal point by which
22 most issues will come into a particular unit or headquarters, and it is
23 their responsibility to accept the incoming task, lay the task out, and
24 make that initial decision as to where the task should go within the
25 command in order to be properly dealt with.
1 Most of the issues that the duty officers deal with are the usual
2 routine things that come into the command. The one issue that is of note
3 is that in the event that decisions need to be made and the commander, or
4 deputy commander, or other relevant officers who would be in the chain of
5 command are not available, the duty officer is authorised to undertake
6 those limited decisions in light of what he understands the commander's
7 guidance is. So because of these various duties, the duty officer is
8 someone, as well as his assistant, who are always in and around the
9 Operations Centre and have a very detailed awareness of the situation
10 that's occurring in their particular unit or headquarters during the
11 period that they're performing the duty.
12 Q. Practically, who do you normally see writing notes in the middle
13 of the night? How did it practically work in that respect between duty
14 officer and assistant duty officer?
15 A. Practically speaking, the duty officer would usually try and
16 catch a few hours of sleep, and the assistant duty officer would be the
17 guy left awake to manage the activities. Having said that, the duty
18 officer is not going home. If he's sleeping, he's sleeping on a cot
19 where he can be, you know, woken up and brought into the situation within
20 a minute or two. So --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'd offer this document into evidence
22 as well.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2203 shall be
25 assigned Exhibit P2547. Thank you.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And now let's go to P845A. This is in 170, the
2 tab, and it's a 16 July intercept between Colonel Ljubo Beara, Cerovic,
3 and X.
4 Q. I take it this is the same Ljubo Beara you've been talking about.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And who do you believe this Cerovic is?
7 A. I believe this is Colonel Cerovic, the assistant commander for
8 Morale, Legal and Religious Affairs for the Drina Corps. And I guess I
9 should note in this context, from my earlier testimony, based on the
10 previous exhibits, he was not performing his duty officer -- he was not
11 performing as the duty officer, so I previously misspoke there.
12 Q. And where do you believe Beara is and where do you believe
13 Cerovic is, based on this conversation and the other information?
14 A. Given the time and date that it's occurring, I believe that
15 Colonel Beara is at the Zvornik Brigade headquarters and that
16 Colonel Cerovic is at the Drina Corps Command in Vlasenica.
17 Q. And we see this, that Cerovic says:
18 "Hey, listen to me. Triage has to be done today ... taken
20 X says:
22 There's some distortion.
23 X says:
24 "To do triage."
25 Cerovic says:
1 "Triage has to be done on the prisoners."
2 X says:
3 "Colonel Beara is right here by me."
4 Cerovic says:
5 "Give me Beara."
6 X says:
7 "Go ahead."
8 B, would be for "Beara," says:
10 Cerovic says:
12 Beara says:
13 "I hear you."
14 Cerovic says:
15 "Hello. Cerovic speaking."
16 What, in your view, is this triage that has to be done on
17 prisoners? First of all, what prisoners do you think Cerovic is talking
18 about here at 1111 hours on 16 July?
19 A. On 16 July, the last clusters of prisoners are those at the
20 Pilica School and in the Dom of Culture.
21 Q. And so what do you make "triage" to mean in this context?
22 A. I don't take it to believe [sic] that it's being done in the
23 medical sense. Neither Colonel Beara or Colonel Cerovic are obviously
24 medical personnel.
25 Q. Remind us in an army, what -- in an army combat situation, what
1 "triage" means.
2 A. In a military medical sense, triage is a battle-field medical
3 evaluation whereas military medical personnel prioritise wounded soldiers
4 or other personnel in terms of the ability to treat them and the
5 timeliness of their treatment, generally identifies those wounded who
6 will survive their wounds without immediate care and then can be placed
7 off to the side, it identifies those individuals who, without immediate
8 care, would or could die of their wounds, and, further, it identifies
9 individuals who are wounded so grievously that it might be that despite
10 any medical care given to them, they're not expected to survive their
11 wounds. In a battle-field context, military medicine is not unlimited,
12 and sometimes those types of difficult choices have to be made in light
13 of the circumstances and the availability of qualified medical personnel
14 to treat the wounded. So those -- that decision process and the
15 procedures associated with it are generally known as "triage."
16 Q. Have you had a chance to review the witness statements or
17 testimony of survivors that were held at the Pilica School, in terms of
18 whether or not they received any medical help or any significant amount
19 of food or water?
20 A. My understanding of their both statements and testimony over the
21 years is that they did not receive life support in the sense of food,
22 appreciable amounts of water, or any medical care whatsoever.
23 Q. So what do you think "triage" means in this context?
24 A. In this particular document, my opinion is that "triage" is a
25 euphemistic phrase that they're using to say the prisoners need to be
1 taken out and executed.
2 Q. How do you make that conclusion? What do you base that on?
3 A. When this document originally came into -- or when this intercept
4 originally came into the possession of the Office of the Prosecutor, we
5 did -- certainly I did, obviously, look into the circumstances to
6 determine whether or not it could have another meaning related to
7 military medicine. Through the course of the investigation, and when one
8 looks at this in context with other intercepts, other documents, and the
9 events that are occurring on the ground at the time, it becomes clear
10 that it could be the only thing that he's talking about. They're not
11 medical personnel.
12 And in light of the fact that the -- now the only known wounded
13 prisoners are those 13 or 15 that are in the Standard facility, I don't
14 believe that Colonel Beara and Colonel Cerovic are referring to them.
15 Those individuals have already been treated, and they are essentially
16 recovering from their injuries at the Standard facility. And as
17 discussed earlier, there are other intercepts and documents and testimony
18 related to what really happened to those particular individuals at a
19 later date. So putting all of this together, in light of what was
20 happening in the circumstances, that is what I base my conclusion on that
21 the subject that they are talking about is murdering the prisoners.
22 Q. Okay. Continuing, Cerovic says:
23 "Cerovic speaking."
24 You see that in the middle.
25 Beara says:
1 "I hear you."
2 Cerovic says:
3 "Trkulja --"
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt you for a moment, because
5 Judge Mindua has a question to the last part.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, I have a short
7 question for you. I'm looking for the document in question.
8 Yesterday, we talked about -- I have the document now.
9 Witness, yesterday, in document 65 ter 249, which was admitted
10 into evidence and received the Exhibit P2544, we saw in this exhibit that
11 Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic say that there were children -- at least four
12 children aged between eight and fourteen among the detainees, the
13 prisoners. We are now, in the document we have before us, reviewing this
14 document, and you have provided us with an explanation for the term
15 "triage." You indicated that this term could not refer to people who
16 were ill or wounded. What do you think of these children who were among
17 the detainees?
18 THE WITNESS: Well, sir, in the context of where these events
19 were happening on the battle-field, the four children were part of a
20 group that was captured on, I believe, the 17th of July, 1995, based on
21 that sweep operation that was jointly accomplished by the military and
22 MUP units, and, yes, sir, you're correct in that sense. A decision was
23 made by somebody that these four children would be culled from that group
24 of prisoners and taken to Bratunac. And I guess the fate of the
25 remaining adults that were captured as part of that has been the subject
1 of testimony that I'm not too familiar with.
2 In this particular context, this is a conversation that is
3 occurring on the 16th of July, 1995. There are only two groups of
4 prisoners that would be of potential topic of discussion between these
5 two officers. The first group of prisoners are those who are detained in
6 the facilities at Pilica and the Dom of Culture. The only other group of
7 potential prisoners would be individuals who might have surrendered from
8 the column to members of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and the other
9 police units that were fighting at Baljkovica, Memici, and those
10 locations. Unfortunately, as the investigation has borne out, in almost
11 all of those cases where prisoners are taken as a result of being
12 captured from the column in the Zvornik area, most of them are relatively
13 quickly executed. They don't survive long enough to be separated or
14 triaged in that sense anywhere else.
15 So it's because of these circumstances, again related to my
16 understanding of the circumstances as they're occurring on the ground,
17 that I draw the conclusion that what Colonel Beara and that what
18 Colonel Cerovic are talking about are the execution of those prisoners
19 still held at Pilica, in the school, and at the Dom of Culture. Those
20 are the final large grouping of prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade area.
21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And just as a follow-up on that: The four children that were
25 picked up in the sweep operation, where was that in relation to the
1 Zvornik area schools that you're talking about all those prisoners in the
2 schools were on the 16th? Excuse me, the Kula School and the Cultural
4 A. Particularly the Kula School and the Cultural Centre are located
5 in the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade area, to the extreme north
6 end of the Zvornik municipality. The prisoners captured as part of the
7 sweep operation -- or the four children, I should say, captured as part
8 of the sweep operation the next day are those captured in the woods near
9 Konjevic Polje, which puts them in the Bratunac municipality.
10 Q. And to make sure it's clear, do you -- are you aware of the fate
11 of those four children? Was that something that was determined, in your
12 recollection, as part of your time here?
13 A. I think that particular aspect of the investigation was completed
14 after I left. But if I recall correctly, I understand that those four
15 children did, in fact, survive, if I recall it correctly.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I think it's -- the Defence
17 would not object if I did tell you that, yes, those children did, in
18 fact, survive and had been interviewed. So that's perfectly clear for
19 the record, if I'd not made that clear sooner.
20 Q. All right. Now, Beara says:
21 "I hear you."
22 And then Cerovic says:
23 "Trkulja was here with me just now, and he was looking for you.
24 I don't know."
25 Who do you take this "Trkulja" to be?
1 A. This is the same Colonel Trkulja who is the chief of armour and
2 mechanised forces on the Main Staff, and his name, of course, is
3 mentioned in the 17 July 1995 Main Staff order as one of the three
4 officers who was sent the next day to the Zvornik Brigade to determine
5 what happened with respect to the column.
6 Q. So if Cerovic is at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica and
7 says that, Trkulja was here with me, what does that suggest to you where
8 Trkulja was on the 16th?
9 A. That on the 16th he had travelled from the Main Staff to
10 Vlasenica and was present in the Drina Corps headquarters.
11 Q. And Beara says:
13 Cerovic says:
14 "So he told me ... he got instructions from above."
15 What do you think this means? Who are they talking about?
16 A. The people above Trkulja, as a Main Staff officer, would be his
17 senior leaders of the Main Staff.
18 Q. All right. And then Beara says:
20 Cerovic says:
21 "To do triage on those --"
22 And then he's interrupted.
23 Beara says:
24 "I don't want to talk about it on the phone."
25 What do you take that comment to mean?
1 A. It's as before, Colonel Beara, among many others, understood that
2 these lines were subject to intercept by hostile forces. It's something,
3 again, I use not as a throw-away line, but as a reflection of the fact
4 that if we were really discussing a legitimate issue of medical triage,
5 one wouldn't think that that would be a particularly sensitive issue that
6 Colonel Beara would feel a compelling need to cut somebody off on the
7 phone to remind them that these issues shouldn't be discussed over this
8 potential phone line.
9 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, P846. It's another
10 16 July intercept a little bit later now in the afternoon. It's 1358
12 THE REGISTRAR: This confidential document should not be
13 broadcast. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. It's from the Zlatar duty officer and the Palma duty officer, and
16 the Palma duty officer says:
17 "Hello, Zlatar. Give me the duty officer."
18 Just remind us again, what's "Zlatar" and "Palma"?
19 A. "Zlatar" is the telephonic code-name for the Drina Corps Command.
20 "Palma "is the telephonic code-name for the Zvornik Brigade Command.
21 Q. All right. And the Palma duty officer says:
22 "500 litres of D2 for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic."
23 And then Zlatar says:
24 "For Lieutenant Colonel Popovic?"
25 Palma says: "Yes."
1 Then apparently the line disconnects, and it starts up again, and
2 there's reference to a Basevic.
3 And Palma says:
4 "Hello, is that Basevic?"
5 And then B says:
6 "Yes, it is."
7 Do you know a Basevic?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Who would that have been, in your view?
10 A. Major Basevic was an officer of the Drina Corps Command who
11 worked in the Rear Services or Logistics Department.
12 Q. All right. And it goes on, and it says -- Palma says:
13 "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic is here at Palma, you know."
14 What does that mean?
15 A. Again, taking what we know "Palma" stands for, it's a -- the
16 correspondent essentially reporting that Colonel Popovic is at the
17 headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade or at least in the Zvornik Brigade
19 Q. Okay. It goes on to repeat that: "Popovic is at Palma."
20 And then Palma goes on and says:
21 "500 litres of D2 are urgently being asked for him or else the
22 work he's doing will stop."
23 Basevic says:
24 "Well, fuck him, don't you have 500 litres of oil? They're
25 asking for two tons loaded."
1 On 16 July at 1358 hours, what do you believe Popovic's work is,
2 as referenced in this intercept?
3 A. My opinion is that his work is related to the transportation of
4 the Bosnian Muslim men from the school in Pilica to the site at Branjevo
5 Farm where they're subsequently being executed.
6 Q. Well, let's go on a bit, and we'll ask you how you come to that.
7 But we see that Palma says:
8 "Well, I don't know. He just called me from the field and told
9 me to pass you the message over there."
10 What do you make of that, "he called me from the field"?
11 A. That line further notes that he's not physically standing or in
12 the brigade headquarters at the time, but that he is passed a message
13 through another means to the Zvornik Brigade, in this context the duty
14 officer, to make his request through Palma, the Zvornik Brigade Command,
15 to the Drina Corps for action.
16 Q. Is that consistent where you believe he is?
17 A. Yes, sir, in the context of what's happening on the ground and
18 where I believe he is, which would be in the 1st Battalion area, in the
19 Zvornik Brigade area, yes, sir.
20 Q. All right. Let's turn the page to the next page in the English.
21 And it's talking about:
22 "Two tonnes are arriving now at your place. You can't find
24 It says:
25 "Should I deliver by helicopter?"
1 It says:
2 "Well, then get in touch with Rocevic."
3 Do you know what that -- is there any idea what that means,
5 A. I'm not sure whether it's referring to an individual or a place.
6 I'm not familiar, off-hand, with an officer named Rocevic, but it has
7 been a few years.
8 Q. All right. It goes down, and Palma says:
9 "Yes, I did, and who is that, is that the duty officer?"
10 And then C says:
11 "The switchboard."
12 Then Palma says:
13 "Give me the operations duty officer."
14 It says:
15 "Is Major Golic there by chance?"
16 C says:
18 Palma says:
19 "Let me talk to him."
20 Now, Palma is now saying:
21 "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to contact you. 500
22 litres of D2 have to be sent to him immediately; otherwise, his work will
24 "Pop," what do you think that means, or who is -- what's that a
25 reference to?
1 A. "Pop" is a nickname that is often associated with
2 Colonel Popovic.
3 Q. All right. And again there's another reference that his work
4 will stop. We see:
5 "Yeah, man. Yeah, 500 litres, or else his work will stop. Go
6 on, right away."
7 "G," which would be "Golic," says:
9 So Golic, which Golic do you think this is?
10 A. This is, I believe, Major Golic, one of the intelligence officers
11 from the Drina Corps Command.
12 Q. All right. And then another conversation starts off with Palma
14 "A bus loaded with oil is to go to Pilica village. That's it."
15 X says:
16 "500 litres?"
17 P says:
18 "No, it should go with its fuel tank from the vehicle battalion."
19 Now, this reference to Pilica, how do you fit that into your
20 conclusion of what Popovic is doing and where?
21 A. In the context of activities related to prisoners, on the 16th of
22 July there are only two primary activities. One is the continued efforts
23 to bury the bodies from the prisoners who are at Rocevic and who are
24 killed in Kozluk. The second one is the process that occurs throughout
25 the morning and day, where the prisoners are being taken from the Pilica
1 School to Branjevo.
2 Q. Well, this is 1358 hours on the 16th, and you have described what
3 you had learned of the fierce combat at Batkovica. And I think you had
4 mentioned and the Court has heard that a corridor got opened up at about
5 that time, and here we have fuel taken to Pilica. Can you relate to us
6 whether or not this fuel and Popovic could be related to these combat
7 activities that are clearly a part of this case now that are going on at
9 A. They're not related. Simply, when one looks at a map, which, of
10 course, I don't have, and looks at the terrain and the locations of where
11 the column is going out, and going through the 7th, 4th, and
12 6th Battalions out to ABiH-held territory, and then one looks at where
13 the 1st Battalion in Pilica is, it's quite clear that they are
14 geographically separated by a number of kilometres, perhaps 20
15 kilometres, and that would be straight line almost. When one looks at
16 the terrain features and the ruggedness of the terrain, it's evident that
17 the activities that are occurring in Pilica at that time can have
18 absolutely no relationship to the military activities that are occurring
19 in Memici and Baljkovica related to the column.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to remind us, can we go to P2291, which is
21 an illustrated map that is actually to scale and may give us some help in
22 that regard. And if we could just put it up just to cover the whole
24 Is it possible to blow it up one more? Yes, thank you. That's
1 Q. Now, first of all, can you remind us where the column of Muslims
2 is going?
3 A. Yes, sir, and I guess I can mark up with this.
4 Q. All right. Wait one second. And we actually -- there -- okay,
5 go ahead.
6 A. One will note, at the bottom of the map, the series of red lines
7 [marks] which are depictions of the general route of the column and the
8 various units that are impacted; the 7th Battalion, the 4th Battalion and
9 the 6th Battalion [marks].
10 Q. Okay. Let me just stop. For the record, have you outlined the
11 red lines in red, and you underlined the various battalions. Can you
12 tell us, is this map one that was done in your time, do you recall?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. And is this accurate, as far as you know, as to the approximate
15 locations of the battalions and the route of the column?
16 A. Yes, sir. This particular map graphic is derived from a much
17 more complex and detailed military map that was seized by the Office of
18 the Prosecutor from the headquarters of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade,
19 which laid out the route of the column as well as the areas and the
20 defence lines of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade as they looked in July of
21 1995. So I'm familiar with the basic map that these particular graphics
22 are derived from.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And that military map is in evidence,
24 Mr. President and Your Honours. I believe we provided you a hard copy of
1 Q. Could you underline "Pilica" for us that you think is the
2 "Pilica" referred to in that intercept that we just had up there?
3 A. Yes, sir. If one then goes from where these locations are, the
4 7th and the 4th and the 6th Battalion, which are the southern areas of
5 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and goes all the way north -- to the
6 extreme northern end of the Zvornik Brigade, one sees the 1st Battalion
7 and, even further to the east, the complex of the school at Kula, and
8 Pilica, and Branjevo [marks]. So it is based on that particular
9 situation, and understanding this, that I conclude that the activities
10 that are occurring in Pilica, Kula, and Branjevo cannot be related to
11 military activities that are occurring against the column much further to
12 the south-west.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this drawn map, where he has
14 circled the area up north in the 1st Battalion and the Pilica Kula school
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The map with the markings will be received as an
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, marked map under
19 Exhibit P2291 shall be assigned Exhibit P2548. Thank you.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I see it's time for the break, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, I would agree.
22 We must have our break now, and we will resume quarter past 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we continue with Mr. Butler's testimony,
2 the Chamber would like to issue an oral decision on the Prosecution's
3 supplemental motion for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and
4 witness list, filed on the 15th of June, 2011, whereby the Prosecution
5 seeks leave to add 13 documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list and to
6 amend its 65 ter witness list in order to expand the scope of
7 Witness Blaszczyk's anticipated testimony and to add an additional
8 individual to the list. Since the Prosecution may apply for protective
9 measures for this individual, the Chamber will refer to this individual
10 as Witness X.
11 The Defence submitted a response to the motion on the 11th of
12 July, and the English version was filed before the Chamber on the 13th of
13 July, 2011. The Defence submitted that in principle, it did not object
14 to the Prosecution's motion, on the condition that it be given sufficient
15 time to analyse the proposed documents and prepare for the testimony and
16 cross-examination of the two proposed witnesses.
17 The Chamber has reviewed the 13 documents the Prosecution
18 identified in its motion and which it seeks to add to the Rule 65 ter
19 exhibit list. It has satisfied itself that the documents are of
20 prima facie relevance and probative value to the charges against the
21 accused. It notes, however, that three of these documents have, in fact,
22 already been admitted into evidence. These are Exhibits P2427, through
23 Witness Milomir Savcic, and the Exhibits 2515 and P2518, both through the
24 current witness, Richard Butler. By this decision, the Chamber grants
25 the Prosecution's request to add the remaining ten documents to the
1 exhibit list.
2 Further, the Chamber is of the view that it would be in the
3 interests of justice to grant the Prosecution's request to add Witness X
4 to the witness list and to expand the scope of Witness Blaszczyk's
5 anticipated testimony. The anticipated evidence of Witness X concerns
6 his position in the Main Staff Sector for Intelligence and Security and
7 his relationship vis-a-vis the accused, as well as his involvement in the
8 events relating to the disappearance of a victim named in the indictment.
9 Witness Blaszczyk is expected to give evidence concerning the chain of
10 custody of the documents added to the exhibit list by this decision. The
11 Chamber has satisfied itself that such evidence is prima facie relevant
12 to the charges against the accused, and hereby grants the Prosecution
13 motion with regard to Witness X and Witness Blaszczyk.
14 In order to ensure that the Defence has sufficient time to
15 prepare for the upcoming testimony of the two witnesses and to review the
16 documents the Prosecution intends to use with them, the Chamber directs
17 the Prosecution that these witnesses be called at the end of the
18 Prosecution case, following the last witness listed by the Prosecution in
19 its submission of witnesses for the month of August, which was filed on
20 the 15th of July, 2011.
21 Having decided to grant the Prosecution's motion, the Chamber,
22 nevertheless, would like to refer the Prosecution to its submission in
23 court on the 4th of July, transcript page 15992, suggesting that there
24 not be a need to recall Witness Blaszczyk. The Chamber leaves this
25 matter in the hands of the Prosecution. And while it grants the
1 Prosecution motion with regard to this witness, it welcomes any reduction
2 of the remainder of the Prosecution's case.
3 This concludes this decision.
4 At this point in time, I would kindly ask Mr. McCloskey about the
5 remainder of his examination-in-chief of the current witness, Mr. Butler.
6 You have extended the estimated time by many, many hours already, and
7 taking into account the length of the cross-examination of this witness
8 by Mr. Tolimir, we need a new updated indication of the remaining time.
9 For sure, we will not be able to finish with the testimony of this
10 witness before the summer recess, but there can't be an unlimited time
11 for the examination by both parties.
12 Mr. McCloskey, can you give us an update? And before you
13 respond, I would like to make one observation.
14 You have, with some documents which are already in evidence,
15 dealt with every word of, for instance, an intercept or another document.
16 Perhaps you can reduce the topics and the matters raised with the witness
17 in your examination. Up to now, you have used 22 hours and 11 minutes of
18 your 15 hours indicated at the beginning.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
20 As I'd mentioned the other day, my estimate was based on the
21 Popovic testimony, and I'd reduced my documents from, I believe, about
22 230 in that to 190. And so the only thing I can think of is just the
23 speed which we're going. Given that that's how many documents I have
24 left [indicates], about an inch, it's important material right on point
25 with the crimes and the activities of these times. I hope -- if I'm
1 realistic, I should finish sometime tomorrow. I'm hoping that we finish
2 sometime tomorrow.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was hoping you will be able to finish today.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, I am so tired, I would love to finish today,
5 Mr. President, and I will try to take into account what you're saying.
6 And sometimes when I paraphrase, it's harder for the court reporter, and
7 I don't want to leave out key items. But I will try to keep this as to
8 the point as possible and hope to get through, but I just -- I can see
9 the number of documents. I just don't see us being able to do that, but
10 we'll give it our best try.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence encourages
13 the Prosecution to use as much time as necessary for this witness. We
14 are aware of the slowness of the process and why that is the case. The
15 Defence, however, is going to insist on the equality of arms; i.e., the
16 Defence will request the same number of hours for the cross-examination
17 as was used for the examination-in-chief. We understand why this is
18 lasting a long time. There are a lot of grounds to cover. In the
19 Popovic case, there were a lot of stipulations and a lot of agreed facts.
20 In this case, for understandable reasons, these things lack, and that is
21 why this examination-in-chief is going to last, and we appreciate that.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is exactly the reason for my concern. And,
23 of course, we will, as I indicated earlier, protect the rights of the
24 accused and observe the equality of arms. No doubt about that. But that
25 will take us, I'm afraid, into the beginning of September with this
1 witness. We have only one week in August left for hearings, perhaps one
2 or two days more. But if I'm not mistaken, this is the eighth day of
3 testimony of this witness, if it is not the ninth.
4 I would kindly invite you, Mr. McCloskey, to shorten your
5 examination as much as possible. Perhaps you can finish after the first
6 session by tomorrow, if that is possible.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I will try, Mr. President, but I can tell you the
8 reason it's so slow is because I am speaking so slowly. It's completely
9 unnatural for me. We would have been done in five days. I know that for
10 a fact. That's why this is taking so long. And I have no problem with
11 it, but please understand that. It's because we're going so slowly.
12 But --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But we know that you are able to speak much more
14 fast, I know that, but -- and we appreciate, for the sake of the
15 interpreters and the court reporter, the speed you are talking.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, we have spoken briefly with
17 Mr. Butler and the Court Officer so he is aware of that first day when
18 we're back into court, and so the logistics of him coming back then are
19 already in place. So we hope that that is where we're going to be able
20 to take off. We're waiting to hear -- I think Mr. Butler's probably
21 waiting to hear from the judges that are waiting for him in the United
22 States and his employer, but that's the plan, and the Court Officer is
23 helping us with that logistical issue so that he can come back and start
24 right away and the general can get full cross-examination.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness should be brought in, please.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Butler, our apologies for the delayed start
3 to the second session. We had to discuss some procedural matters.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I understand.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Also in relation to your testimony and the length
6 of your stay here in The Hague.
7 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Could we go now to 65 ter 839. It should be at 172 in the tab.
10 Q. And I can see you reviewing that, Mr. Butler. Can you tell us
11 what this document is and how it relates to the previous conversation, if
12 at all, in your view?
13 A. This particular document is related to the previous conversation,
14 in so much that it represents the work and accounting of the
15 Zvornik Infantry Brigade's technical services people and rear services
16 organ to properly disburse 500 litres of D2 and to account for the
17 remainder of it coming back to Colonel Popovic. As I've indicated in my
18 prior testimony, the fact that people like Colonel Popovic or
19 Colonel Beara or others were involved in unlawful acts, they were still
20 operating within a military organisational bureaucracy, and that various
21 rules and procedures with relation to fuel, technical services, and other
22 equipment had to be followed and properly accounted for. So this
23 particular document illustrates that.
24 Q. And we can see at what is numbered Box 15, under "Addressee
25 Station," that it's for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic; is that your
2 A. Yes, sir. Box 15 says "KDK," commander of the Drina Corps, and
3 then 15 states "Lieutenant Colonel Popovic."
4 Q. And the "Request Approved" box says "500," and do you tie that to
5 the previous intercept?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Who, in your view, is the "Captain S. Milosevic" that is referred
8 to in the middle of the page; do you recall?
9 A. Captain Milosevic is the assistant commander for Rear Services of
10 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
11 Q. All right. And we see, in the left-hand corner, it's handwritten
12 "16 July 1995." That's clearly the date of the previous intercept. But
13 at the bottom, we see handwritten "17 July." How do you account for that
14 difference? Could this be a 17 July document and, therefore, not related
15 to this intercept?
16 A. No, sir. I take this as 16 July, related to the intercept.
17 Again, it's a process that occurs. And one part of the accounting
18 process occurred on 17 July, and there's a separate signature of an
19 "M. Krstic" who is a Zvornik Brigade chief of Technical Services during
20 this time.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'd offer this into evidence.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 839 shall be
24 assigned Exhibit P2549. Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we now go to P342.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please leave the document on the screen for a
2 moment. Judge Nyambe has a question.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: I'm a little bit lost. I can see the reference to
4 what is in Box 14 and 15, and the "500 litres," and "Captain Milosevic,"
5 but I don't see the date, "16th July." Can you assist me to locate that?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. If you look at the very top lines,
7 Box number 6.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, I've got it.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've just noticed
12 something. Translation of Column 8 [as interpreted], I believe, in the
13 original, in Serbian, we have number "500," which is crossed out, but in
14 translation that is not reflected correctly, or at least it looks like
15 this number, "500," is crossed out. I don't know if that may be of some
16 significance or not.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if you allow me, I can go into
19 greater detail with this document.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My problem is that I don't find the Box 8 at the
22 Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said "28."
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. Mr. Butler, can you explain to us, as best you can, your
2 understanding of how this document works, especially in the amounts of
3 fuel as they were noted and disbursed here, if you recall?
4 A. Yes, sir. Within this document, it notes, in Box 28, 500 litres
5 requested/approved. You go down several lines, you will see a remark.
6 Out of 500 litres, 140 litres were returned unused. So then in Box 29,
7 as part of that accounting process, they're reflecting the total amount
8 of fuel used or consumed, which is 360 litres.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for your explanation.
10 Now we should go to the next document.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's an interesting balance, Mr. President. I
12 will try to reach it. I know it's -- I have the same concern.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P342 is under seal. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, we see a 16 July intercept from 1615 hours,
16 where they recorded a conversation between the Main Staff duty officer
17 and General Mladic. And it says "General, who was inaudible." Who do
18 you take that "who" to mean, based on what this says? Who is inaudible
19 in this conversation?
20 A. In this context, I believe what they're saying is that
21 General Mladic, they recognise that it's him, but they're not able to
22 understand, for whatever reason, the conversation or the text of -- or
23 the audio portion of what he's saying.
24 Q. All right. And we see here that in this one-sided conversation,
25 where we can't hear the general, it says:
1 "Good day, General, sir.
2 "Well, it's like this. I've just sent a telegram to Toso."
3 What do you think the Main Staff duty officer is talking about
4 here, and who?
5 A. I believe that he's referring to "Toso" as the nickname for
6 General Tolimir.
7 Q. All right. And I won't read the entire text of this, but we see
8 here that according to the duty officer, that the president called a
9 while back and was informed by Karisik that Pandurevic had arranged the
10 passage for Muslims over that territory. It talks about other things,
11 doing it without authorisation, and I won't read all that out. But can
12 you tell us, firstly, who do you think the president is in this and who
13 is this Karisik?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Good
16 afternoon to everyone.
17 Could we have the reference for the claim that the "Toso"
18 mentioned in this telegram is a reference to me? Is there any other
19 indicator that would point in my direction, in view of the fact that this
20 is a completely different theatre of war, not the one where I was ?
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you are giving evidence, Mr. Tolimir. You
23 may deal with this question during your cross-examination because it was
24 the answer of the witness.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Mr. Butler, can you remind us why -- and tell us, in this
3 conversation, why you believe -- or who you believe "Toso" is and why?
4 A. As the investigation and interview of various VRS officials
5 reflect, "Toso" was a nickname for General Tolimir. Given the context of
6 the conversation between a Main Staff duty officer and General Mladic,
7 both of whom would be, presumably, familiar with General Tolimir and his
8 nickname, I conclude that they're referring to -- when they say "sending
9 a telegram to Toso," they're referring to sending a telegram to
10 General Tolimir.
11 Q. Did we just see, on the 15th of July, General Tolimir, aka Toso,
12 sending out a telegram from the Rogatica area?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And who do you think the president is in this context?
15 A. In this context, I believe the president is
16 President Radovan Karadzic.
17 Q. And who do you think Karisik is?
18 A. Karisik is the acting minister of the interior at the time.
19 Q. And what, in your view, is being said -- I mean, what is going on
20 here, from this one-sided conversation, in your view, and can you tie it
21 to the events, as you know them, if you can?
22 A. The con -- again, I keep using the phrase "context," but it
23 always is important to understand, when one looks at an intercept or an
24 order, how it lays into the context of things that are happening on the
25 ground. But as discussed earlier, Colonel Pandurevic at this time has
1 made a decision to allow the Bosnian Muslim column to go into ABiH
2 territory. This particular intercept reflects the fact that now the
3 highest levels of the Republika Srpska, the president of the republic in
4 this sense, have heard or have received indications that this is the
5 case, and they are making their own inquiries to the army to try and
6 ascertain what the actual situation is and whether or not Pandurevic has
7 allowed the column to pass, and, if not, directions that he does nothing
8 without seeking authorisation first.
9 Q. And would this matter be something, in your view, that would be
10 the subject of a telegram or -- to General Tolimir, even if he is in the
11 Zepa theatre somewhere?
12 A. Given the significance of this particular development, yes, sir,
13 I believe it would.
14 Q. Can you explain that?
15 A. The general knowledge of the operational goals with respect to
16 what the military was doing with the column and what their plan was was
17 to continue to militarily attack it in an effort to defeat it and destroy
18 it, if practicable. The fact that a brigade commander would unilaterally
19 allow what would be thousands of Muslim soldiers to retreat unmolested
20 across his lines and into ABiH territory would have a significant
21 military and political impact within the RS. These are, you know, issues
22 of, obviously, high enough gravity that President Karadzic has found out
23 about them, and using the phrase "through Karisik," it implies that the
24 Ministry of the Interior, either the MUP police forces on the ground in
25 Zvornik or the RDB internal security services have learned of this
1 development and have rapidly apprised their political leadership of what
2 the situation is. So given the seniority of both the political and
3 military people who are trying to ascertain what the truth is, makes all
4 the sense in the world that the senior intelligence officer and security
5 officer for the VRS is going to be made aware of what the situation is
6 and what steps are being taken to figure out what the truth is.
7 Q. If we throw in the charged offences, and at the same time 1650
8 hours on the 16th, over a thousand people are being summarily executed at
9 the Branjevo Farm, and burial operations are going on at Kozluk and
10 Petkovci and Orahovac, would this complication referred to have other
11 implications that the chief of security would need to know about?
12 A. I'm not sure I quite understand the question.
13 Q. Does this action that -- the complications of opening the column
14 and potential resources that it may involve, could that interfere or
15 affect the ability to carry out the murder operation in some way or would
16 it be something that the murder -- people conducting the murder operation
17 would want to know about, as they are doing it in this area, in the same
18 area around Zvornik?
19 A. In terms of timing, if that's what you're leading to, by this
20 particular time, most -- at 1615, most everyone has already been
21 executed. There may, at this late hour, still be some people left in the
22 Dom of Culture, but by this time most of the actual executions at all of
23 these sites are completed.
24 Q. Are these people that have been executed or are in the process of
25 being executed people that came, in large part, from this column that is
1 being let through?
2 A. No, sir. All of these people were individuals that were either
3 taken into custody at Potocari on the 12th or 13th or those who were
4 subsequently captured by the VRS at places like Nova Kasaba,
5 Konjevic Polje, and the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on -- you know,
6 beginning the 12th through, potentially, the 14th.
7 Q. It was a poorly-framed question. I didn't mean they were taken
8 at Baljkovica. I meant that they are the same -- are they the same group
9 that fled from Srebrenica, aside from the Potocari people?
10 A. Yes, sir. Those were the people from the column who were
11 captured on the 12th, 13th, and 14th.
12 Q. And were there efforts to continue to execute people that were
13 captured from the column on the days after the 16th, 17th, 18th?
14 A. Yes, sir. There were.
15 Q. I think you've discussed those, so I don't need to repeat that.
16 And this is already in evidence, so I'll go on.
17 If we could go to P1089.
18 And we see that this is an interim combat report from the
19 Zvornik Brigade in the name of Vinko Pandurevic. I won't read it all.
20 Can you just tell us -- paraphrase briefly what this says and how it fits
21 into your analysis. I think you've talked about it quite a bit, so I
22 don't think we need too much more information on it. Can you just give
23 us the guts of this as we're looking over it?
24 A. Yes, sir. I mean, paragraph 1 lays out the situation that he's
25 facing militarily -- that he believes he's facing militarily from the
1 column, including references to what he believes are the size of the
2 column as well as the ferocity of the attacks that the column is
3 undertaking against his subordinate units.
4 The second paragraph lays out what his units are trying to
5 accomplish and over what particular areas of terrain, and whether they've
6 been successful, as well as the casualties they've been taking.
7 In paragraph 3, he lays out, as a result of the consequences that
8 are occurring, the decision that he has made to open a corridor along the
9 line for the column to escape.
10 Q. Let me stop you there. In paragraph 3, we see he says:
11 "I have decided, in view of the situation, to open a corridor
12 along the line of three trenches for the civilian population - about
13 5.000 of them."
14 Is there ever a mention in this document that he's also let
15 through army or able-bodied men?
16 A. Yes, sir. In a very off-handed way, if one looks at the
17 continuation of paragraph 3, he seeks to -- and it's on the English
18 language second page. He seeks to kind of hold open the abstract
19 prospect that there's certain a number of soldiers that got out among the
20 civilians. He is clearly at this stage trying to avoid -- clearly
21 stating the reality, which is that obviously both the soldiers and the
22 civilians accompanying the column have been let through by down-playing
23 the issue of how many soldiers his action has allowed to escape.
24 Q. This comment in paragraph 6:
25 "I consider that the Krivaja 95 operation is not complete as long
1 as a single enemy soldier or civilian remains behind the front-line."
2 What do you make of that reference, especially to the "civilian"
4 A. In this, he's referring to the idea that once these lines close
5 again, he has an awareness that it's not going to be the complete column.
6 There will still be hundreds of stragglers that are roaming throughout
7 the territory of a number of the battalions, the 4th, the 6th, and the
8 7th, who aren't going to be able to make it through the lines within the
9 24-hour specified time-frame. So he's already thinking ahead, as part of
10 6, his future proposals as to what he's going to need to -- once the
11 lines are re-established after the end of the cease-fire, to complete the
12 job that he's doing against those military and civilian personnel who,
13 for whatever reason, would not be able to escape through the lines on the
14 16th and the morning and afternoon of the 17th, the period of the
16 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 3020B. This is a -- I'm sure you
17 know, an intercept that you have spoken about many times. 16 July, 2116
19 "Palma, from Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic, to Rasic, the
20 Operations Centre, and Lieutenant Colonel Popovic asked to be connected
21 with General Krstic at Zlatar, and he was not there, so he asked to be
22 connected to the Operations Centre."
23 Do you recall, Mr. Butler, from earlier in the day who the duty
24 officer was at the Vlasenica Drina Corps headquarters?
25 A. I believe it was an officer named Rasic.
1 Q. That would be correct. And would that be consistent with this
3 A. Yes, sir. It's someone in the duty operations officer [sic] who
4 would be picking up the phone and engaging conversations; yes, sir.
5 Q. And we see that Popovic says:
6 "Hello, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic speaking."
7 And then Rasic says:
8 "Rasic here, can I help you?"
9 And Popovic says:
11 Rasic says:
14 "I was just up there."
16 "I was with the boss personally."
18 "Here where I am ... you know where I am?"
19 "I know."
20 "Well, you got his interim report."
21 What, in your view, is this a reference to? Where -- when he
22 says I was just up there, and "the boss personally"?
23 A. I believe that when he says this, he's referring to the commander
24 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Colonel Pandurevic, and the interim
25 report he discusses is the interim combat report that Colonel Pandurevic
1 sent to the Drina Corps.
2 Q. That's the one we just looked at?
3 A. Correct, sir.
4 Q. And when he says: "I was just up there," where do you think he
6 A. In this particular context, I believe he's referring to the
7 forward command post of the Zvornik Brigade, where Colonel Pandurevic
8 normally would be located during this battle.
9 Q. And can you explain to us how you've come to those conclusions?
10 Is there any other materials to indicate -- to help you reach that
12 A. Yes, sir. Again, through the course of the investigation,
13 several of the phrases, "up there," "where they are," and things of that
14 nature are described. I'm aware Obrenovic has given some descriptions of
15 them, other officers of the Zvornik Brigade who were interviewed, who
16 explain where Colonel Pandurevic was and what he was doing on these
17 certain days, so again in that part it's constructive analysis.
18 Q. Do you recall any documents or intercepts where Popovic was
19 requested to go in a particular place that we haven't dealt with in your
20 testimony thus far?
21 A. I'm finding I'm blanking out at the moment. I don't believe so.
22 My memory might have to be refreshed on that one.
23 Q. Okay. Do you remember that -- was there any ever a point where
24 the Drina Corps had heard about the column or the quarter being opened
25 up, and they were out of touch with Vinko Pandurevic and were trying to
1 get in touch with him some way?
2 A. Yes, sir. I do recall that there is an intercept that's
3 attributed to the Drina Corps where they are also seeking information
4 from Colonel Pandurevic, or the Zvornik Brigade even in general, to try
5 and get confirmation as to what is occurring on the ground on 16 July
6 specifically related to rumours that Colonel Pandurevic is allowing the
7 column to go through.
8 Q. Do you remember a reference to Popovic being ordered to go there?
9 A. I vaguely do. I just -- I don't remember the entire text of the
10 intercept right off the top of my head, regrettably.
11 Q. No problem. Let's look at the rest of it.
12 Popovic says:
13 "It's all just like he wrote ... I was there on the spot and saw
14 for myself he had received some numbers ... well, that's not even
15 important ... I'll come there tomorrow, so tell the general ... I've
16 finished the job."
17 What do you think he's referring to there?
18 A. I believe in this particular passage of the intercept,
19 Colonel Popovic is referring to two separate things. First, he's
20 verifying that the situation and the gravity of the situation, as
21 described by Colonel Pandurevic in his report, is accurate. And when
22 he's talking about receiving numbers, he is referring to reinforcements
23 that arrived to the unit through the course of the day and acknowledging
24 that they've been received as scheduled. The last phrase, however, where
25 he says, "I've finished the job," I believe that he's referring to his
1 particular job, which is the completion of the execution of the Muslims.
2 Q. All right. And we see some other back and forth, and then he
4 "Well, in general terms, there weren't any major problems. But
5 up there, there were horrible problems, and that thing the commander
6 sent, it was just the right thing."
7 Then Rasic says:
9 And he says:
10 "Just the thing ... horrible ... it was horrible."
11 What is your interpretation of those sentences?
12 A. When I first discussed this particular intercept during the
13 Krstic case, it was my conclusion that when he was using the phrase "up
14 there," he was talking up north in a geographic sense. Subsequent to
15 that testimony and during later testimony in other cases, after hearing
16 from Dragan Obrenovic referring to the same thing, what Colonel Obrenovic
17 at the time explained, and which makes more sense, is that when they are
18 talking about geographic terms "up" and "down," what they are referring
19 to in this context is within the Zvornik Brigade, the terrain as it
20 slopes from the low ground near Zvornik and the Drina River to the higher
21 ground, where the IKM and the battle-fields were. So in this context,
22 it's more appropriate to read it, when he says "up there," he's talking
23 about "up there" in the sense of the forward command post and where the
24 battle-fields were.
25 Q. So -- but you didn't tell us when you first saw this and talked
1 about it in Krstic, what did you think the "horrible" was a reference to?
2 A. My understanding was the "horrible" was a reference to the scope
3 of the executions that had occurred in Pilica.
4 Q. And now what is your view on that?
5 A. It is the scope of the situation at the battle-field of
6 Baljkovica, Memici, and those places where many Bosnian Serb soldiers
7 were killed or wounded because of the fighting.
8 Q. All right. And if we could go to the next page in the English
9 and the next page in the B/C/S, we see a reference to Rasic asked:
10 "Tell me, did anything arrive there from Vidoje Blagojevic?"
11 And then they talk about manpower, and Popovic says:
12 "Yes, it did arrive, but it wasn't brought in on time, and that's
13 why the commander had big problems."
14 Then there's a question:
15 "When exactly did Blagojevic's men arrive?"
16 And we can read the rest, that Rasic tells him, Okay, find out
17 exactly when they arrived and call back.
18 Now, can you tell us, what was your first analysis and testimony
19 about what this meant in the Krstic case, and have you changed your view
20 from that, and why?
21 A. Yes, sir. As the background context of the executions at
22 Branjevo Farm, the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic notes that in the
23 morning hours or during the first parts of the execution, that they were
24 undertaken by members of the 10th Sabotage Unit, and that at some point
25 later on in the afternoon, that men or soldiers from Bratunac took over
1 completing the executions at Branjevo, and after that point the 10th
2 Sabotage went into Pilica, to the local cafe. As the investigation
3 continued and as more intercepts became available and other information
4 became available, it became clear, at least to me, that in this
5 particular context of the intercept, what they were referring to was a
6 group of soldiers that was sent from the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade
7 into the Zvornik Brigade area, at the request of Colonel Pandurevic, for
8 reinforcements for the battle-front, and that they're not referring to
9 people sent for the execution.
10 So based off the additional new information, I changed my
11 analysis of what this particular intercept means to reflect the fact that
12 the people arriving from Blagojevic were not those people who were at
13 Branjevo, executing people, but were instead individuals who were sent
14 and committed into combat operations at some time on the afternoon of
15 16 July.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's -- and I believe I need to
17 offer that into evidence.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3020B shall be
20 assigned Exhibit P2550. Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 3021A. It's the next, and this is 10
22 minutes after the last one.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be 3021A.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct.
25 Q. And as we see, it's 2126 hours; participants, Colonel Cerovic and
1 the Palma duty officer. And if we recall that Rasic says:
2 "Okay. Find out exactly and call me back," when he's asking
3 about when Blagojevic's men arrive.
4 Did this intercept have anything to do with your revised analysis
5 of the previous intercept?
6 A. Yes, sir, in the sense that after that particular conversation,
7 there's a subsequent conversation between the Palma duty officer and
8 Colonel Cerovic from the Drina Corps, where he is informed in more
9 specific detail about reinforcements coming from Badem, the telephonic
10 code-name for the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, as well as additional
11 members of various MUP companies that arrive from other locations.
12 Q. And this information that men arrived from Badem at 1705 hours,
13 is that consistent or not consistent with what Erdemovic said about the
14 time that they arrived, if you can recall?
15 A. That would be inconsistent, because Erdemovic has testified that
16 it would be before 1705 hours. I don't believe Erdemovic said they were
17 anywhere this late. I think they arrived more along the lines of 1300.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
19 I'd offer that into evidence.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3021A shall be
22 assigned Exhibit P2551. Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we now go to 65 ter 4051.
24 Q. And this should be looked at in conjunction with the following
25 document, P394B and P2207, Mr. Butler, for your review. But we now have
1 a handwritten document that I believe was retrieved from the Drina Corps
2 collection, and we see that in the right-hand corner, it's handwritten
3 and underlined: "Informed by Tolimir." It's dated 16 July 1995. It has
4 a number, 04/2-30, and it says:
5 "Sator for Uran and Elektron."
6 And then we see what it is talking about. On 16 July, 0300
7 hours, Muslim armed group attacked UN OPs at various places. Do you have
8 any knowledge what "Sator for Uran and Elektron" is right now,
9 Mr. Butler?
10 A. Not specifically. I'm aware that just as the Bratunac -- or just
11 as the brigades had telephonic code-names, they also had code-names that
12 were assigned to them as part of the tactical-level communications radio
13 network. When I say "tactical communications," I'm talking the
14 battle-field communications, the smaller radios mostly in the VHF range,
15 that were used as another means of controlling and keeping abreast of
16 what was happening at the actual battle sites. If I recall correctly,
17 "Uran" is the Drina Corps one. But it's been many years since I've seen
18 the actual communications plan, so I can't be sure.
19 Q. And that is in evidence, so that's something we can refer to.
20 And looking at the second page in English, again it talks a bit more
21 about people at the UN base and in the elementary school in Zepa.
22 We need to go over in the B/C/S.
23 And it talks about Muslims taking over other observation posts:
24 "Through the UN commander who is in our territory, we called the
25 Muslims to leave. We'll call them to gather all their men and civilians
1 at the UN base in Zepa."
2 What does this have to do with?
3 A. From reading it, it looks like a battle-field report, something
4 that would ultimately be incorporated into a daily or interim combat
5 report from a particular unit, discussing the situation on 16 July
6 related to Zepa.
7 Q. If General Tolimir was still in the position of the -- in the
8 Zepa area, would this be the kind of information he may have been aware
9 of or be able to pass on to someone, as this note says: "Informed by
11 A. Yes, sir, I presume he would.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this into evidence.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4051 shall be
15 assigned Exhibit P2552. Thank you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. And could we go to P394B, which we see is an intercept. It's
18 also dated 16 July. The time is 1000 hours. It's between Mico and Toso.
19 Who do you think Mico and Toso are, as you review this intercept?
20 A. I believe "Toso," again, is a nickname for General Tolimir. I'm
21 not sure that I can lay out who "Mico" would be in this context.
22 Q. All right. And if General Tolimir said in this, I sent you you
23 know what over there via Uran and you send it to me via Uran because this
24 one is not secure. If Uran is, in fact, the Drina Corps IKM for an
25 operation, what is Tolimir saying here?
1 A. Basically, he's indicating that information sent to him should
2 be -- basically go through that particular headquarters and he will send
3 his information to that particular headquarters, because he recognises
4 that this particular communications channel is not secure.
5 Q. Does this suggest he knows there is a communication channel that
6 is secure?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And do you recall, when Tolimir says: "And to tell Pepo," do you
9 recall that nickname at all?
10 A. No, sir, I don't.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. It's been a while.
13 Q. Okay. And we see that it continues on, where General Tolimir
14 says that:
15 "... I received what he sent me, and if he wants to send me
16 something, he can call Uran on the same line that you are communicating
17 with Uran, and he can relay the telegram for me through it, and you know
18 my call sign."
19 If --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Tolimir just
22 informed me, and I was going through my papers here, but -- and I can
23 follow what Mr. McCloskey is saying, but I don't see it on the monitor.
24 And I believe that in Serbian, it should be on the following page, on
25 page 2.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Thank you for that, and of course it's also
4 the hard copy should be in your binder. I hope everyone has the binders.
5 Q. Now, if Colonel Salapura identified himself as "Pepo," would that
6 be consistent with this intercept?
7 A. Yes, sir. It certainly -- given the fact that we're talking
8 about General Tolimir, and Salapura is one of his subordinates, yes, sir.
9 Q. It goes on, and I won't read all of it, but General Tolimir talks
10 about sending a telegram that they were supposed to receive through Uran.
11 M says he didn't receive it yet and he's going to call him now. And then
12 they go on and continue to talk a bit more about telegrams, and Tolimir
13 ends up saying at the end:
14 "Call him and then tell Pepo he can send telegrams this way, and
15 I can send it to them."
16 Now, this part at the bottom:
17 "Five minutes later Mico called Jevdo on this frequency and asked
18 about two telegrams he was supposed to forward him. They agreed that
19 Jevdo was going to send them immediately?"
20 Do you remember Jevdo or a person by the name of Jevdo that may
21 have been involved in communications?
22 A. Yes, sir. It would be Milenko Jevdjevic, who was the
23 communications officer for the Drina Corps and who, I'm also aware from
24 his previous statement and testimony, was at the Drina Corps IKM during
25 the military operations related to Zepa.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. And if we can now go to P2207.
2 Q. This is another handwritten document, and this time it's got up
3 in the left-hand corner "Command of the Drina Corps IKM Krivace," and
4 it's dated the 17th, the next day, from what we've just seen, and it
5 talks about a radio conversation with Avdo Palic. And I won't go into
6 the details of that, but it's -- this radio conversation was reported by
7 General Tolimir.
8 What is your view of -- we now see General Tolimir addressing a
9 document like this, where previously, I think you'll recall, we saw
10 documents from the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade or -- can you make
11 anything out about where General Tolimir would be or anything related to
12 the previous two documents which involve the Drina Corps IKM? What, if
13 anything, can you -- can you help us out with on this, Mr. Butler?
14 A. While it's not clear what his precise location is, it does
15 reflect the fact that wherever General Tolimir is physically located,
16 that it's been determined that for passing messages and information back
17 and forth, the closest proximity between where General Tolimir might be
18 and a secure means of communication is going to be the Drina Corps IKM.
19 Q. All right. Now let's go to P378A. We'll skip a document. We're
20 now at 181, tab 181, P378A. It's from the 17th, 1244 hours, X and Trbic.
21 Trbic answers:
22 "Yes, can I help you?"
23 X says:
24 "Tell me, is Pop there?"
25 Trbic says:
2 "You don't know where he is?"
3 "Well, he went there to -- towards that task."
4 X says:
5 "North of you?"
6 What is your viewpoint, as we read down through this intercept?
7 What is going on here?
8 A. In this discussion, "Pop," being Colonel Popovic, somebody is
9 looking for Colonel Popovic. He's speaking with Trbic, who is the
10 assistant to Drago Nikolic as a security officer, and Trbic is explaining
11 that Popovic is not physically here, "here" being the location the
12 Zvornik Brigade headquarters at Standard, and indicating that he's
13 dealing with a task north. Or X actually asks the question, North of
14 you, and Trbic confirms that.
15 Q. And the previous document, P552A indicated that Trbic identified
16 himself as the duty officer. So can you tell us what the investigation,
17 in your view, of documents has borne out that was going on north of where
18 Trbic was on 17 July that Popovic may have been involved -- or "Pop" may
19 have been involved in?
20 A. Yes, sir. They were still continuing or finishing burial
21 activity at Rocevic as well as burial activity at Branjevo Farm.
22 Q. All right. And we see there's a request by X for Pop to get in
23 touch with him.
24 X says:
25 "I know it is. Drago told me."
1 Sorry, but -- Trbic says:
2 "But it's very hard for me to do that."
3 And X says:
4 "I know it is, Drago told me, but ... I don't think of it that
6 What do you take that to mean?
7 A. It's talking about physically getting in touch with
8 Colonel Popovic. The nearest phone line or secure phone line, military
9 one, would go to the 1st Battalion headquarters, which is not near
10 Branjevo, so in order for anybody to get in touch with Colonel Popovic at
11 Branjevo, they're going to either have to take a vehicle and drive
12 directly to where he is, or they're going to have to relay a message
13 through wherever the nearest battalion or other military installation is
14 that's connected to a switchboard. So it's just reflecting the fact that
15 wherever Colonel Popovic is, he is not near or he does not have ready
16 access to a phone.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, P379A. It's just five
18 minutes later. It's X and Trbic.
19 X says, It's changed again, and to get in touch with him and let
20 him finish that work. What does this mean, to your -- in your view,
22 A. Whoever has been looking for Colonel Popovic has changed their
23 mind and now decided that rather than immediately have Popovic report to
24 them or him, that he wants Popovic to complete the work that he's doing,
25 and then only after he's done, he can then report back to whom he needs
2 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 3043. This is
3 this same day, but at 1622 hours. It's between -- 3043A, 1622 hours,
4 between Popovic and Y. And I won't read it all. We just hear that:
5 "Popovic: Hello, it's Popovic, boss ... everything is okay ...
6 that job is done ... everything's okay."
7 "No problems," and gets an A, an A, the grade is an A, everything
8 is okay, and: "Bye."
9 Who -- what, in your view, is Popovic talking about at this
10 point, and who would he be talking to and referring to as "boss," in your
12 A. In my view, the fact that he's used the phrase "boss" reflects
13 the fact that he is speaking to his immediate commander, which in this
14 case would be General Major Krstic, the Drina Corps commander. He talks
15 about at the place that he was at that base, so I infer that to mean that
16 where he is at the moment he's having this conversation is at the Zvornik
17 Brigade headquarters.
18 Q. And do you know or recall what the investigation revealed about
19 this small note at the bottom, where the interpreter heard French being
20 heard in the background? Sorry, the intercept operator noted that:
21 "French is heard in the background."
22 A. I know that that was an issue that the investigation did look
23 into. I don't recall what the results would be, off-hand, of that.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'd offer that into evidence.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3043A shall be
2 assigned Exhibit P2553. Thank you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we go to 65 ter 1780.
4 And, Mr. President, the next series of documents has to do with a
5 particular section in the -- a crime charged in the indictment. I
6 believe we've referred to it as the Nezuk executions. So it does get a
7 little bit lost in the maze, but this is a specific reference, as we'll
8 get to.
9 Q. We see a Main Staff document from 15 July, from General Miletic,
10 talking about the dispatch of a unit to the 1st Zvornik Brigade from the
11 1st Krajina Corps. Can you briefly explain this and how that fit in, if
12 you can recall, to what was going on at the time, just briefly?
13 A. Yes, sir. Once the senior leadership of the Drina Corps and the
14 Main Staff recognised the gravity of the military situation developing in
15 Zvornik during the evening hours of 14 July, there were a number of
16 actions that were done where various military and police units that could
17 be readily made available were ordered to go to the zone of the
18 Zvornik Infantry Brigade and were placed under the command of
19 Colonel Pandurevic for the duration of those military operations. This
20 particular document reflects one company of the 1st Krajina Corps being
21 made available as part of the general reinforcements.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'd offer that into evidence.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3043A -- oh, pardon
25 me -- 1780 shall be assigned Exhibit P2554. Thank you.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we now go to 65 ter 388.
2 Q. This is a document from the 1st Krajina Corps, by its commander,
3 ordering that a unit go to the Zvornik Brigade. Is that consistent with
4 the previous document and what you know about the investigation? Did
5 they actually go?
6 A. Yes, sir, it is consistent. And, yes, sir, this unit actually
7 did deploy.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to P14 -- I'm sorry, that --
9 I'd offer that into evidence.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 65 ter 388 will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 388 shall be
12 assigned Exhibit P2555. Thank you.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. And to try to save a little time: Mr. Butler, we see from the
15 next tab it's a section from P1459, page 109, that there is a note in the
16 Zvornik Brigade duty officer note-book about -- that men from the 16th
17 Krajina are at TT602 and that Obrenovic should be informed. What is a
18 "TT602"? The interpreters told us "trig point."
19 A. Yes, sir. On maps, military or civilian, there are established
20 points on the ground that correspond to points on the map that are often
21 used for surveying. In this particular context, they've -- often they're
22 hills or other locations, but in this particular one, he's basically
23 using -- rather than exactly identifying where the unit is, he's
24 basically saying they're at a certain trigonometric point, it's probably
25 Hill 602 or Trig Point 602. I mean, it's a fixed location on a map.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's break time, Mr. President, and we're
2 getting -- we're getting closer.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
4 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have on the screen
5 both versions in English, and I believe the Serbian transcript should be
6 on page 108.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's correct. Thank you very much. No, it's
8 the wrong page. [Overlapping speakers]
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't really think it's necessary, frankly. I
10 was trying to save some time, but --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But during the break, somebody may look at it.
12 We must have our second break, and we'll resume quarter past
14 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Could we go to 65 ter 322.
19 Q. This is a combat report from the Zvornik Brigade of 19 July 1995,
20 under the name of Vinko Pandurevic. Now, I just -- in paragraph 2 of
21 this, it talks about:
22 "All available units (POSS, a company of the 16th Krajina ..."
23 Can you relate this reference to the 16th Krajina to the unit
24 we've been talking about that was sent to Zvornik?
25 A. Yes, sir, this is that unit.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'd offer this into evidence.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 322 shall be
4 assigned Exhibit P2556. Thank you.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go to 65 ter 2215. And this is a
6 Main Staff report to the president.
7 If we could go to the Drina Corps section. It should be page 4
8 in the English, and it's paragraph 6 in the B/C/S.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it this is behind tab 192.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We've skipped ahead a bit.
11 Q. And there's a reference in here that:
12 "At 1930 hours, we received information that the enemy were
13 building rafts in the Crni Potok sector, escaping to the right Drina
15 31 July, Muslims going over rafts to the right-side bank of the
16 Drina, what do you connect this to, if you recall, Mr. Butler?
17 A. I'm sorry, you were going a little bit too fast for me. What are
18 we -- where are you in this document?
19 Q. We went to 31 -- we're in 31 July.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. At the Drina Corps, page 4. We now have Muslims building rafts
22 and going across the Drina. And you can look into the couple of
23 intercepts after that that you would have reviewed along with this
24 document, if you remember.
25 A. Yes, sir. I mean, in this particular context, after the fall of
1 the Zepa enclave, several thousand Bosnian Muslim soldiers from the
2 former 28th Division sought -- rather than to put themselves in the
3 custody of the VRS, they broke out first over land, but actually in a
4 direction that would bring them to Serbia. So there was a concerted
5 effort to break out across the Drina River and then ultimately place
6 themselves in the custody of the Government of the Federal Republic of
7 Yugoslavia at the time.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And I would offer this into evidence.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2215 shall be
11 assigned Exhibit P2557. Thank you.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we go to P345.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This is a confidential document and should not be
14 broadcast. Thank you.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. This is an intercept from August 1st, with a person named Jevtic
17 from Serbia, and Stevo, and Ljubisa Beara from the Main Staff. And again
18 I won't go over this, but we see that Stevo is saying:
19 "Listen, why do you let these Turks swim towards you?"
20 And if we go on to the second page in the English, they continue
21 to talk on that subject.
22 And S says:
23 "And do keep in touch. Beara is going to call you."
24 And then as we go down, we -- to the third page in English, we
1 "Hello, good morning. Ljubo Beara speaking."
2 And they're talking about -- we see:
3 "Let me tell you," is this what -- this person, J, is telling to
5 "... we and our blue guys, what we catch, we process. And if
6 they're interested, we hand them over."
7 What do you think there -- Beara is talking about here with this
9 A. Beara is talking about a process by which individuals who've
10 crossed the Drina River and who are in FRY territory, about how the FRY
11 might turn some of those people back over to the Republika Srpska, and,
12 in fact, as it's listed here, notice that they've already done that on
13 several occasions.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to the next document, which
15 is 65 ter 3208A. We're now on August 2nd, and it's another intercept
16 between someone they called Mandzuka and General Krstic.
17 And again we see that Mandzuka is saying:
18 "We just have a few down in the creek. Some of them have gone
19 through, about a thousand of them."
20 Krstic says:
21 "You shouldn't have let any of them escape."
23 "We didn't dare to cross over into the other state. We just
24 checked the terrain by helicopter yesterday. It's pretty inaccessible.
25 Did you see how the Serbian ministers accepted them over like liberators?
1 Even the Red Cross came."
2 And look at the rest of that, and it talks about 2.000 -- Beara
3 went over there to Serbia. He'll take care if there's some captured and
4 dead. They threw away their weapons.
5 What's this?
6 A. This is, at this point in time, a reflection that General Krstic
7 and whomever Mandzuka is are discussing their displeasure about the fact
8 that various individuals in Serbia have made decisions that they're not
9 going to immediately turn Bosnian Muslims from Zepa back over to the
10 Republika Srpska. In fact, they're treating them in accordance with
11 established international law, and the Red Cross is given access to them.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I'll offer that into evidence.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3208A shall be
15 assigned Exhibit P2558. Thank you.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now we're at P528B.
17 Q. This is a still August 2nd intercept, 1240 hours, between Krstic
18 and Popovic.
19 We see Krstic talking to Popovic and saying:
20 "Go over to Bajina Basta, you and Kosoric. You know what you
21 have to do."
22 Remind us where Bajina Basta is and who Kosoric is?
23 A. Bajina Basta is a town on the Serbian side, and "Kosoric" is
24 Svetozar -- in this context, I believe it is Svetozar Kosoric, who is the
25 chief of intelligence for the Drina Corps.
1 Q. And we see, two-thirds of the way down, Popovic says:
2 "He went up there because we had some parcels, to check what they
4 What do you think that's a reference to? Again, we hear this
5 term "parcels."
6 A. Yes, sir. And again "parcels" being a reference to prisoners.
7 "To check what they know" is a cryptic reference, or maybe not so
8 cryptic, to interrogating them for information.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. We now go to P529C, still 2 August.
10 Q. This is Popovic and X, Boss Krle. And we see what Popovic is
11 saying to Krstic, that:
12 "Well, Beara just called me. He came back from there this
14 He says:
15 "He gave the report to Miletic."
16 Who would that "Miletic" be, in your view?
17 A. That would be General Major Miletic, the chief of operations of
18 the Main Staff.
19 Q. Then we see that Popovic says:
20 "There are 500 to 600 of them ..."
21 What do you think he's referring to?
22 A. I suspect in this context, what he's referring to is at least one
23 group of individuals who are in custody of the FRY in Serbia.
24 Q. Then as we look down, there's a mention of Kosoric to go to
25 Bajina Basta. And as we look at what X -- who do you believe X is?
1 A. Krle is a nickname for General Krstic.
2 Q. And he tells Popovic:
3 "And I want you to bring the Turks back ... to me. Is that
4 clear, man?"
5 And Popovic says:
6 "What if they won't give them?"
8 "What do you mean, they won't give them?"
9 "Well, they won't give them, they won't give them."
10 Krstic says:
11 "They're our Turks, man."
12 Popovic says:
13 "Well, the MUP won't allow access ..."
14 Krstic ends up saying:
15 "I'll turn the gun barrels on them. Did you understand me?"
16 What's Krstic saying here?
17 A. General Krstic is laying out the fact that he is not pleased
18 about the fact that the Serbian -- or the FRY Ministry of Interior will
19 not permit the VRS to take custody of these Bosnian Muslims who are
20 currently in the FRY.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, that series of intercepts, beginning with that
22 report to the president, we see that Beara and Popovic and Kosoric are
23 mentioned several times in this. Would this be the kind of activity that
24 General Tolimir would be briefed on, given that those, as we know, were
25 his men involved in this?
1 A. Yes, sir. I mean, the fact that reports are being given to
2 Miletic, those will obviously be passed to General Tolimir, and it's
3 expected that Colonel Popovic would keep General Tolimir apprised of --
4 I'm sorry, Colonel Beara would keep General Tolimir apprised of his
5 dealings with the Serbian MUP and other authorities in the FRY pertaining
6 to the prisoners.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, can we go to -- it's 65 ter 40,
8 but I -- I think this is in evidence already. But just perhaps we can
9 check that.
10 Q. But as we're doing that, Mr. Butler, can you take a look at this
11 65 ter 40.
12 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, this is Exhibit P2281. Thank
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. So that's not a problem, and I
15 won't -- I think that's self-explanatory and it's been spoken to.
16 How about 65 ter 41.
17 Q. All right. Mr. Butler, having in mind what you have seen in the
18 tab, which is the last P document that we just mentioned - it's under
19 197, which is this fuel to go to Milorad Trbic, signed in Ratko Mladic's
20 name - now let's look at this other document that same date. It's under
21 the name of Colonel Zarko Ljubojecic, and notes:
22 "Pursuant to the order of the commander of the Main Staff,
23 immediately issue the following quantity of fuel."
24 And is that related to the previous document of fuel going to
25 Milorad Trpic?
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And if we look at -- is there such a person Milorad Trpic?
3 A. Not in the Zvornik Brigade, no. I don't believe anyone in the
4 Drina Corps has that name.
5 Q. And who would that be, Captain Milorad Trpic, in your view?
6 A. That would be Captain Milorad Trbic, who is the deputy security
7 officer for the Zvornik Brigade. He is subordinate to Drago Nikolic.
8 Q. What does it say to you, if anything, that a security officer of
9 the Zvornik Brigade is put in charge of such a large amount of fuel in
10 mid-September 1995?
11 A. Given the context of other information that I'm aware of, the
12 fuel that is being used here, the special engineering tasks that are
13 being discussed, relates to the effort that lasted for almost a month,
14 month and a half, to exhume the primary grave-sites associated with the
15 Srebrenica executions and the effort to remove those remains to more
16 remote locations in and around the Zvornik area, some of them -- or many
17 of them in relatively remote locations, in an effort to hide the evidence
18 of the mass executions.
19 Q. There's evidence in this case that Milorad Trbic was involved
20 with this, that Vujadin Popovic was involved with this, that
21 Momir Nikolic was involved with this. In your view, is there any way
22 that General Tolimir would not have been knowledgeable and involved with
23 this process of reburials?
24 A. No, sir. Given the gravity of the political impact that the
25 discovery of the mass executions had when they were laid out at the
1 United Nations Security Council back in August of 1995, and the
2 implications thereof for both the political and military aspects of what
3 was happening in the RS at the time, I can't believe that an effort like
4 this, to essentially exhume all the remains and hide them in order to
5 attempt to conceal the crime being conducted by a number of security
6 officers from the Drina Corps, would somehow occur without the bare
7 minimum knowledge of General Tolimir.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Now, yesterday General Tolimir
9 objected -- I'm sorry, that one I've forgotten has not been into
10 evidence, so I would offer that second fuel document into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 41 shall be
13 assigned Exhibit P2559. Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Yesterday, you testified that you believe Milan Stankovic was a
16 member of the intelligence and security branch of the Main Staff, and I
17 want to take you to the 2 May 2011 testimony of Petar Salapura at
18 page 13475 to 13476, where he was asked the question:
19 "Can you briefly name for us the people that worked under you in
20 the Intelligence Administration in 1995? We're especially concerned
21 about July 1995."
22 He names various people, including Karanovic, Radoslav Jankovic,
23 Slobodan Momlic. Then he says:
24 "And sometime in June, Milovan Stankovic joined the
25 administration. He was reassigned to us."
1 Should Petar Salapura know the assignment of Milovan Stankovic
2 [Realtime transcript read in error "Milo Stanic"] in the Main Staff intel
3 branch in July 1995?
4 A. Yes, sir. He obviously should know who is working for him.
5 Q. All right. And on the same topic, I'd like to go to the
6 interview/statement of a man named Dusko Vukotic that was taken on
7 September 17th, 2001. And I have a new ERN of -- excuse me, a new 65 ter
8 number of 7455.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I for a moment ask you and draw your
10 attention to page 74, line 2. You said:
11 "Should Petar Salapura know the assignment of ...," and can you
12 repeat, Mr. McCloskey, the name? Here we see "Stanic." Did you say
13 "Stanic" or "Stankovic"?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I meant to say "Stankovic, Milovan Stankovic."
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Please carry on.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. So I would like to take you to page 106 of his
19 interview/statement back in 2001, which -- page 2 in e-court.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is one of the documents which are not
21 yet on the 65 ter exhibit list?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, this is specifically in response to
23 General Tolimir's concern about Mr. Butler's conclusion regarding the job
24 of Milan Stankovic.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it the Defence normally has no objection
1 to add these documents to the 65 ter exhibit list. Is that correct,
2 Mr. Gajic?
3 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Every document
4 that can help shed some light will not be objected to. However, there
5 may be a miscommunication somewhere. Perhaps it has to do with a
6 transcript. My apologies. I didn't get a chance to read it through over
8 Now, the objection was not whether this was in the unit of
9 Republika Srpska that was mentioned. It was in a different context. It
10 had to do with the individuals who were in the Main Staff while they were
11 assigned to Srebrenica and whether at that particular time they were
12 under the command of Zdravko Tolimir. So I don't think what is at issue
13 here is whether Milo Stankovic was a member of the
14 Intelligence Administration or not.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that, although it was slightly
16 beyond the limit of the scope of matters you should address the Chamber
17 with. On the other hand, leave is granted to add it to the 65 ter
18 exhibit list.
19 Mr. McCloskey, please carry on.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you.
21 Q. I just want to make a reference to a section of this interview,
22 which should be up on the -- page 3 in the B/C/S, page 2 in the English.
23 All right, it's the bottom of page 2 in English. It looks like line 19.
24 First of all, can you tell us, before we get to what
25 Dusko Vukotic says, do you remember who Dusko Vukotic is or was at the
1 time of July 1995?
2 A. Yes, sir. Dusko Vukotic was the head of intelligence for the
3 Zvornik Infantry Brigade in July of 1995.
4 Q. All right. And we see that Dean Manning asked
5 Mr. Vukotic -- he's referring to a 17th July document, where there's
6 three officers from the Main Staff, and I think we'll all agree that
7 that's the 17 July document where he's mentioned. And Dusko Vukotic
9 "I didn't see any of them, but on the 17th, whether I heard him
10 on the radio communication, Milovan Stankovic, that even he spoke to
11 Muminovic, Semso."
12 Is that the proper name, Semso Muminovic, of a person you tried
13 to say earlier?
14 A. Yes, sir, and he is the ABiH 2 Corps officer who was on the radio
15 first with Colonel Pandurevic, and later with others, dealing with
16 negotiating the cease-fire to allow the column to go out.
17 Q. Then Mr. Vukotic goes on to say:
18 "I heard him on the communication, and I know his voice because
19 he worked at the time in the Intelligence Administration of the
20 Main Staff of the VRS ..."
21 Now, does that also support your conclusion that
22 Milovan Stankovic was a member of the intelligence branch of the
23 Main Staff?
24 A. Yes, sir. And, in fact, given that Dean Manning and I were here
25 at roughly the same time, this might have even, in fact, been the first
1 indication in my mind that would support that. I am aware that after I
2 left, interviews and the testimony of Salapura were done that I was not a
3 party to. But, again, I can't go back and tell you exactly what
4 documents I know at this particular time or what references I'm aware of
5 that would support my position, but clearly, you know, I do believe that
6 he is an officer who was part of the intelligence staff there.
7 Q. And also in response to what Mr. Gajic just said: As a member of
8 the intel unit of the Main Staff, what is his relationship to
9 General Tolimir?
10 A. Well, in this particular context, his immediate supervisor would
11 be Colonel Salapura, as the chief of intelligence. The next higher-up
12 person within his chain would be General Tolimir.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I would offer those two-page sections
14 and only those two pages of Dusko Vukotic's testimony into evidence.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps there are three pages, but the page
16 numbers are indicated in your list of documents. They will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7455 shall be
18 assigned Exhibit P2560. Thank you.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. And, Mr. Butler, if we go back more days than I can remember now
21 to your discussion of documents related to convoy -- convoy approvals,
22 convoy restrictions, do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And in your binder of convoy materials, there was several
25 documents related to convoy materials that I didn't specifically ask you
1 about; is that correct?
2 A. I recall that there's a group of them that I do not believe that
3 we got to as part of this.
4 Q. And have you been able to review those documents, as they were in
5 your binder and associated with the other documents?
6 A. Yes, sir. And in that context, I've testified about many
7 convoy-related documents in the Popovic case, and any documents in this
8 particular case that I reviewed that weren't in the Popovic case, there
9 should be proofing notes on.
10 Q. And those documents that were in your binder that you had
11 prepared for, do they basically fit into your basic theory and analysis
12 related to the convoy system and the convoy restrictions that you've been
13 talking about?
14 A. Yes, sir. They're generally illustrations or examples of how the
15 convoy process worked, how it was reviewed by various officers at the
16 Main Staff, how particular pieces of cargo were approved, or how in many
17 cases it was either not approved or cargos were reduced. And as I've
18 testified before, I believe they're all in support of the plan that was
19 laid out under Directive 7 with respect to the enclaves.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, it's my proposal that I
21 provide you tomorrow with the list of those few remaining documents and
22 offer them into evidence, based on the foundation that Mr. Butler has
23 laid by his specific discussion of specific documents, and by what he
24 just said, and from, I think, your understanding and my viewpoint that
25 these convoy documents are, on their face, self-explanatory. And that I
1 know the Trial Chamber generally wants a document referred to
2 specifically prior to entering it into evidence, but I think in this --
3 perhaps in this particular situation, I would offer them into evidence in
4 this context to get your ruling.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you able to -- now, first of all, I take it
6 these are documents contained in Binder number 2?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, they are in Binder number 2. I
8 skipped around a little bit, as you saw. And so to be perfectly clear,
9 it would be best if I could give you those numbers tomorrow. But they're
10 all in Binder number 2, and I can identify them very clearly tomorrow.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful for the Chamber and for the
12 Defence if you can provide us the numbers of these documents so that we
13 can prepare a decision on that.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. This --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I mean to provide us with the numbers by e-mail
16 sometime during the morning of tomorrow.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's precisely what Ms. Stewart said, and that
18 will not be difficult.
19 And one other topic I just recalled by looking at the
20 Court Officer.
21 I'm told that Mr. Butler has requested to have transcripts of his
22 testimony to be able to review prior to his cross-examination, so I --
23 and there is also some, as you'll remember, some -- a small amount of
24 confidential material. I've mentioned this to Mr. Gajic, but I -- Gajic,
25 and I just pass that on to you for your decision.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The transcript is a public document, accessible
2 for the public. Is there any objection for the Defence? Perhaps it
3 supports the conduct of cross-examination.
4 What is your position, Mr. Gajic?
5 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've already shared my
6 opinion with Mr. McCloskey and told him exactly what you told us. We do
7 not object to Mr. Butler receiving the transcript from this trial.
8 Transcripts are public documents, and I really don't see why Mr. Butler
9 should not be allowed to peruse them.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: After having considered the situation with
12 Mr. Registrar, your request is granted. Some parts of this transcript
13 are confidential. I think nobody has any concern about giving you also
14 this part of the transcript because you were present at that time. We
15 were in private session for some minor matters, but you should be
16 reminded that you are not allowed to publish these parts of the
17 confidential transcript.
18 THE WITNESS: That will not be a problem, sir.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 The Registrar is hereby instructed to provide you with a
21 transcript of your testimony up to now. Thank you very much.
22 Anything else, Mr. McCloskey?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, thank everyone, thank you,
24 Your Honours.
25 I have no further questions for Mr. Butler, and we'll just
1 provide you with those numbers tomorrow. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 We will deal with these documents tomorrow, at the beginning of
4 the session in the afternoon at 2.15 in this courtroom, and then
5 Mr. Tolimir may commence his cross-examination.
6 We adjourn.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of
10 July, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.