110908ED

Page 17744

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

2 like to greet everybody in the courtroom, including Judge Nyambe, who has

3 just joined us.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

5 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to greet the witness - I don't want

6 to mention his name - and all those who are in the same place where the

7 witness is. May today's day complete in keeping with God's will, as well

8 as the whole trial.

9 I would like to invite the witness to answer my questions based

10 on what he remembers and knows about the events.

11 Sir, I'm not going to mention your name, but let me tell you that

12 we will talk about your statement. Under tab 1, 06516 is the number of

13 the exhibit. We see the statement and now we will look at the third

14 paragraph in the statement, and I will read from it.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is under seal and should not be broadcast.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are waiting for 65 ter 6516, under seal.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct. Thank you.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. We can see this document. Sir, could you please tell us whether

21 you remember how was decision reached on leaving Srebrenica and

22 separating men from women, the elderly from the able-bodied men, how was

23 a decision reached to start walking over the mountain towards Tuzla?

24 Thank you.

25 A. The decision for us to start walking across the woods and for my

Page 17745

1 mother and my sister to go towards Potocari was made exclusively by us.

2 That was a decision made by ourselves. I knew that if I were to go to

3 Potocari that would mean a certain death, and we hoped that if we went

4 across the forest that there was a good chance for us to stay alive.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us if you made that decision

6 for your family? Who was it who made the decision for all the families

7 in Srebrenica, for women and children to go to Potocari and for the men

8 to go through the wood? Can you tell us that?

9 A. No, I can't.

10 Q. Thank you. Are you saying no because you don't want to tell us?

11 Can you explain how come that all the families were unanimous in their

12 decision? Was it just a chance happening, or was there a previous

13 decision made at a higher level?

14 A. I can give you my opinion, only. I believe that after everything

15 that happened in the course of 1992 and 1993 and the shelling that

16 happened on the 6th of July, we knew what the Serbian Army wanted to do.

17 They wanted to kill us all. And in my view no smart person would have

18 ever dreamt of heading towards Potocari. My opinion is that everybody

19 decided for themselves to go through the forest.

20 Q. Yes, that is your opinion that you share with us now. However,

21 at the time, what was the decisive factor for all the families to make

22 that decision? Your father was also a soldier. You said it yourself.

23 Did somebody tell him to impart that decision on his family?

24 A. You know, my father was a soldier just on paper. His name was on

25 records, but he was not an active soldier. He did not have weapons. As

Page 17746

1 I've already told you, he just registered as a member of the BiH Army.

2 And as for the decision, I can't tell you whether some higher force, as

3 it were, or higher command decided that, but everybody was afraid and

4 everybody made their personal decisions or they just followed the

5 majority.

6 Q. In that case, could we please look at the third paragraph in your

7 statement, where you say, and I quote:

8 "I was in a group of people that first gathered in the village of

9 Kazani, in the vicinity of Suceska. When we reached Buljim, some

10 officers from the Bosnian army tried to organise the column of several

11 thousands of people with different army units leading them."

12 My question to you is this: In view of the fact that your

13 departure with the military column was organised by army officers, is it

14 possible that army officers conveyed that message to all the families,

15 through soldiers, for family members to go to Potocari and for men and

16 soldiers to go to Susnjari? Is that a likelihood? Is this how things

17 may have transpired?

18 A. I believe that we were focussed on Srebrenica and what was

19 happening in Srebrenica in that moment. Susnjari, Buljim, are further

20 away from Srebrenica. When I said this, I meant that there was a

21 subsequent attempt to organise the column, because when we started

22 walking, there was no order among the people. I believe that they tried

23 to organise us in order to provide for a more efficient passage. In

24 Srebrenica itself, my opinion is, and I adhere by that opinion, that

25 nobody tried to organise people where they would go and how they would

Page 17747

1 go. I believe that all those decisions were made individually.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in the place where you were lined up

3 there were members of civilian authorities and military authorities from

4 Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes, I heard that.

6 Q. Thank you. Is it possible that they may have reached an

7 agreement to organise a column that would try to break through across

8 Baljkovica to the territory under the control of the BiH Army? Thank

9 you.

10 A. I don't know. I don't know anything about that.

11 Q. Thank you. Please, did officers separate you and tell you what

12 unit to join, or was it up to you to join any unit you wanted?

13 A. I really don't know what units those were. I only know that I

14 was moving with a large group of people. I was tired. I fell asleep in

15 the evening on the 11th, and when I woke up on the 12th I was at Buljim.

16 I don't know what had happened in the meantime, whether people were

17 organised into what units. Speaking from my own perspective, neither me

18 nor my people were ever told what to do, where to go. We just followed

19 the crowd.

20 Q. Thank you. However, on the 8th of March, 1999, when you provided

21 this statement, you stated in the third paragraph, in the last sentence

22 or the last two sentences, this is line 7:

23 "A Bosnian army unit, the Mountain Battalion, led by Ejub Golic,

24 had the task to protect this part of the column of civilians. There were

25 about fifty armed soldiers among them [as interpreted]."

Page 17748

1 You were there, and that's why you stated what you stated. Do

2 you remember that?

3 A. Yes. I said what I saw at that moment at the place where I was,

4 and I heard that those people who carried those weapons, about fifty of

5 them, that it was their task to protect the rear end of the column.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you observe that they behaved in a military way,

7 and did they protect the flanks of the column? Did you see soldiers on

8 the flanks of the column and at its back?

9 A. No, I didn't see them.

10 Q. Okay. Let's move on to the 5th paragraph in your statement,

11 where you say:

12 "We went down the hill into a creek, 200 to 300 metres down.

13 Here I saw four or five dead bodies dressed in civilian clothes lying on

14 one side of the track. My impression was that they had been hit by

15 bullets to the head and chest area. I had heard firing going on in the

16 area."

17 My question to you is this: Who could have killed those people?

18 Who could have inflicted such injuries on them, only in the head and in

19 the chest? Was that done from close range? Thank you.

20 A. I suppose that it was from close range. But that was the initial

21 shock. That was the horror of the entire situation. Those were the

22 first images of dead people. I was in a state of shock. The first time

23 I smelled blood. And my conclusion was that they were killed from a very

24 close distance.

25 Q. Thank you. And now let's look at tab 7, and under that tab we

Page 17749

1 will see D270.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, just a question. You have used the

3 OTP statement of the witness. Are you tendering it?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

5 like to tender the witness's statement into evidence. Thank you.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 6516 shall be

8 assigned Exhibit D319 under seal. Thank you.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And now let us look at D270. That was provided by a person whose

13 name I am not going to mention because the document is under seal. If we

14 look at the fifth line of the statement, we -- you will see that it

15 reads:

16 "When we left Srebrenica on 11 July 1995, a shell killed five men

17 in a ditch, but I did not know any of them."

18 My question to you is this: You followed the same trail, would

19 you say that those men or those bodies that you saw, is it possible that

20 they were killed by a shell, that they were not killed from a rifle and

21 sustained injuries in the head and in the chest?

22 A. I don't know. I don't want to speculate.

23 Q. Thank you. In that case, tell us, did you see the wounds on the

24 bodies by which you were passing, or did you hear the description from

25 somebody else?

Page 17750

1 A. I saw them myself.

2 Q. In that case, please tell us: Did you follow the same trail that

3 people had walked on previously? They did not belong to your group; they

4 belonged to some other groups. And those dead bodies, did they belong to

5 your group or to some other groups of people who had passed the same way

6 before you?

7 A. I don't know. I did not know any of them.

8 Q. Thank you. And did you see next to the bodies any eye-witnesses,

9 somebody who had seen how they were killed, somebody who told you that

10 they were killed with bullets hitting them in the head and in the chest?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Thank you. Would you say that somebody should have approached

13 the column very close to be able to kill those people by firing in the

14 most sensitive parts of their bodies, in the chest and in the head?

15 A. I suppose so, yes. It must have been done from a very close

16 range. Maybe they were ambushed or something.

17 Q. Would somebody have informed you not to follow the trail to avoid

18 that same ambush?

19 A. No. Nobody knew where other people were going. The situation

20 was horrendous. There was shelling, shooting. I don't see how anybody

21 could convey any information to anybody.

22 Q. Thank you. Just a while ago, we saw that Golic, the commander of

23 the Mountain Battalion, was in charge of the safety of civilians. You

24 said it yourself in the third passage. Is it possible that he was the

25 one who was supposed to warn you? He was at the rear of the column and

Page 17751

1 he was supposed to protect the civilians. Was it his role to inform you

2 about any problems that you might encounter on the trail that you were to

3 follow?

4 A. I don't know. No.

5 Q. Thank you. In that case, let's go to the follow paragraph in

6 your statement, which is paragraph 6. That's tab 1. Let's go back to

7 tab 1, paragraph 6, your statement.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which is now D319.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct. Let's look at

10 D319.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast.

12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In the sixth paragraph. Now we can see the sixth paragraph,

14 where it says:

15 "I saw seven or eight killed soldiers from the BiH Army, and

16 their throats had been slit."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The trail that you followed, did it pass by the creek where you

20 saw some seven or eight dead Bosnian army soldiers with their throats

21 slit?

22 A. Yeah, the trail that I followed skirted them, and I could see

23 them.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you learn from somebody how they had been killed,

25 how the BiH Army soldiers had been killed, or did you make your own

Page 17752

1 inferences?

2 A. No, I did not learn the truth. Nobody informed me how they had

3 died. I just saw them.

4 Q. Do you remember whether they still had uniforms on which is what

5 made you conclude that they were soldiers? If they did wear uniforms,

6 what kind of uniforms were those? Did they also wear weapons?

7 A. Yes, they were in uniforms, which made me conclude that they were

8 soldiers.

9 Q. Thank you. And were there weapons on their bodies or next to

10 their bodies? Perhaps grenades, rifles?

11 A. You know, when there are bullets flying above you and when people

12 are running to save their lives, there is hardly time to look at the

13 details and to see who wore what or what was next to the bodies.

14 Q. Thank you. You said that their throats had been cut. For

15 somebody to cut their throats, for somebody to slit their throats, would

16 you say that they should have come very close, that they should have

17 touched them, that they should have wrestled them? What would you say?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Thank you. Okay, since you don't know, let's go to my next

20 question. But before that: Does that mean that there was fighting along

21 the entire trail that you moved on and that those five or six bodies were

22 the first bodies that you saw? Was there fighting, head-to-head

23 fighting, as it were?

24 A. I don't know. I can't speculate.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 17753

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please pause and for the sake of the

2 interpreters so that they can finish their interpretation.

3 Now your next question, please.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, let's look at paragraph 7 in your statement, and I will

7 quote from it. I will read just the penultimate sentence, where you say

8 that:

9 "Some shells fell very close and the shells for fired from

10 hand-held rocket-launchers. I had learned about weapons during high

11 school."

12 My question to you is this: In order for somebody to fire a

13 shell from a hand-held rocket-launcher, does that person have to see the

14 target in order to be able to fire at it?

15 A. I don't see anything strange there. Your soldiers were there and

16 there were moments when we could hear them shouting to each other. They

17 could easily throw grenades on us. They were very close to us.

18 Q. Since you say you learned about weapons in school, can you tell

19 us the range of a hand-held launcher? Does there have to be visibility

20 for the person holding the launcher?

21 A. I am no expert in weapons.

22 Q. Thank you. Would it have been more logical for the shooter to

23 shoot at you from a greater distance than coming close to you to have

24 visibility with a hand-held launcher?

25 A. There was no need. Your soldiers never exposed themselves to any

Page 17754

1 danger, because there was no one armed in that column. If we had been

2 armed, I would have said, Okay, it's legitimate to keep at a greater

3 distance. From where I was, I saw around me only civilians at the time

4 when the Serbian troops were shooting at us. They could choose whether

5 to shoot or to throw grenades.

6 Q. I wouldn't like to go back to anything we've already dealt with,

7 but let me remind you that you were scattered among the units of the

8 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. But why did you state that, then, in the third

11 paragraph of your statement, in the sixth, seventh, eight, and ninth

12 line?

13 A. That is a misinterpretation, a misrepresentation. I said I was

14 towards the tail of the column, which doesn't mean that when we were

15 moving from Buljim along those brooks, across these hillocks, there was

16 anyone armed around me. I didn't see anyone armed around me, nor could I

17 see where the firing was coming from, where your soldiers were. You must

18 be misreading my statement.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I jump in at this point.

20 Sir, I would like to read the specific sentence to you again:

21 "There were about fifty armed soldiers among us."

22 Can you tell us where you have seen these 50 armed soldiers?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them at Buljim, at Buljim.

24 Later on I don't know where they went. I didn't see them in the column

25 again, none of those armed soldiers.

Page 17755

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. And do you recall that in paragraph 3, line 2, you

3 stated:

4 "When we got to Buljim, some officers of the Bosnian army tried

5 to organise a column of several thousand people led by several army

6 units."

7 Is that again a misreading? That's what you stated.

8 A. That's what I stated, correct.

9 Q. Thank you. Please tell the Trial Chamber, was it indeed the

10 case, as you stated it, or was it different?

11 A. That's not the way it was. I emphasize again: I was only

12 following the bulk of the people, and I didn't see again any of those

13 armed units all the way to Sandici. I didn't see anyone firing back. I

14 did not see any organising at all. I'm just telling you what I saw.

15 Q. But in your statement you said you saw seven to eight dead

16 soldiers of the BH army lying with their throats cut in the low grass.

17 That's what you describe in paragraph 6 of your statement. Were they

18 armed soldiers? Were they soldiers at all?

19 A. They had uniforms on; that's why I called them soldiers. But

20 they had no weapons. We saw them lying in the grass with their throats

21 cut. It was hot. We could smell the blood. That's what I stated.

22 Q. Let us look at paragraph 9 of your statement, lines 1 through 6.

23 I will read it all out, because we're going to discuss it:

24 "However, suddenly we saw -- we heard a strange noise like a

25 strong gust of wind. We realised we were ambushed, encircled by the

Page 17756

1 Bosnian Serb army. They started shooting from all sides, from hand-held

2 weapons, and they started throwing grenades. We saw many people get

3 killed, but I don't know how many. I decided that we should try to break

4 out of the encirclement and try to get to Kravica. We managed, and I was

5 helping my father. We got to the top of a hillock when we still heard

6 the shooting. It was dark by that time."

7 My question is: Can you remember any more details that could

8 help the Trial Chamber, together with the statements of other

9 eye-witnesses, which locations that was, and whether it's the same event

10 that you are talking about? Do you have any more details to provide?

11 A. The only detail I can give you about that is that there was a

12 mass of people, really a lot of people - I can't tell how many; I don't

13 want to speculate - at the time when the shooting started from all sides.

14 That something I have flashbacks about to this day. When you see people

15 being shot, when a bullet grazes your face, burning your skin without

16 actually hitting you, and when you manage to get away unscathed and get

17 to the top of that hillock I mentioned in the statement, and when we were

18 still alive at nightfall, and when we realised that we had been ambushed,

19 and when your soldiers got there -- I'll tell you one detail I hadn't

20 mentioned many times because it's shocking, and when from that distance

21 someone saying, "Take your underpants off. Fuck your balija mother,"

22 that's the detail that tells me it was an ambush and many, many, people

23 got there -- many, many people got killed there.

24 Q. [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't receive interpretation at the moment.

Page 17757

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Were you in shock and that's why you don't want to speculate

4 about the number? You don't want to give a number that's lower or higher

5 than the actual number; is that why you did not tell us the exact number

6 of people?

7 A. I can only say it was a mass of people.

8 Q. Thank you. In that case, since you can't determine how many, I

9 would like to read to you from one statement.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab number 5, D268. We will not

11 say the name of the person who gave this statement, but we'll quote from

12 the last paragraph, the second half of this paragraph.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So I'm not going to mention name. This person told us later that

15 during the withdrawal of 285th and 282nd Brigades, sometime around 1000

16 hours --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have that page on the

18 screen anymore.

19 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir be asked to repeat this

21 passage?

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters had some

23 difficulties to follow because the relevant page disappeared from the

24 screen at that moment. Please repeat the last part of your question.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will repeat.

Page 17758

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. "Sometime around 1000 hours on the same day, a Chetnik

3 paramilitary unit opened strong artillery fire on other -- on the

4 remaining brigades and civilian population that happened to be in Buljim,

5 where," according to his statement, "around 1.000 soldiers and civilians

6 were killed. The shelling was from anti-aircraft weapons, Pragas,

7 zoljas, and RPGs."

8 Based on this passage from this eye-witness, can you determine

9 whether it was the same incident, whether it indeed happened that way,

10 the horrible way that he describes?

11 A. I'm not interested in the details provided by others. I'm here

12 to tell you about what I personally experienced and saw.

13 Q. Thank you. I only wanted to refresh your memory, because you

14 didn't say anything about that, and to try to determine the location. Do

15 you know where that happened and the name of that location so the

16 Trial Chamber can have an idea where the column was attacked?

17 A. I think Kamenica.

18 Q. Thank you. Is that Pobudjanska Kamenica, or some other Kamenica,

19 maybe the Zvornik Kamenica?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. Please, since you said that you fell asleep on that

22 spot and you couldn't find your father and brother, you found them only

23 later, can you tell us perhaps whether they told you how this ambush had

24 occurred, along with the other circumstances that you were unable to

25 describe in your statement?

Page 17759

1 A. [Microphone not activated]

2 THE INTERPRETER: There is no sound from the witness.

3 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please stop for a moment. We didn't hear the

5 answer of the witness. It was not heard and not interpreted and not

6 recorded. I would kindly ask the witness to repeat his answer.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

9 Mr. Tolimir.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. Have you spoken to your brother and father

12 at all about how it had come about that you were separated while you fell

13 asleep and how come they left you there? Have you ever discussed it with

14 them?

15 A. How can you speak to a father whose whereabouts I never learned?

16 He was never identified, even, and I didn't speak about it to my brother.

17 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at page 3 of your statement, where

18 you say:

19 "After a while --"

20 Page 3. That's the same statement of this witness, page 3, first

21 paragraph.

22 "After some time --"

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first you said page 3 of your

24 statement. Now you say statement of this witness. Are you now referring

25 to D268?

Page 17760

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D319. I stressed page 3. It's

2 page 2 in English.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. "After a while, things were quiet again. I found my brother, and

6 then I fell asleep again. When I woke up, it was already in daytime. I

7 couldn't find my brother or father. There were about 15 dead bodies

8 lying there, in civilian clothes, some of them had their throats cut and

9 some of the bodies were cut into two or in fragments, blasted to

10 fragments. From the stench and the sight, I started throwing up. I was

11 terrified and ran away."

12 Tell me, is it a different location now? Did you run away to

13 that hillock, fell asleep, and then woke up in a different place where

14 you saw this? Can you tell us something more about this location?

15 A. I can't tell you anything about this in particular. Nothing new.

16 I stand by what I said.

17 Q. Thank you. We are still on D319, paragraph 2 of your statement.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which is under seal and should not be broadcast.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian it's page 3.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. "Sometime later I came across another group of people, and we

22 continued along the track made by those who had passed ahead of us.

23 There I found my father and brother again. We heard the Serbs calling

24 for us to surrender on their megaphones."

25 At this location, did you find out from your brother or father

Page 17761

1 how come that you kept falling asleep and then became reunited with them

2 when such horrible things were going on?

3 A. No.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated]

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. After leaving Srebrenica, when you came to Dubrava, and later,

8 did you discuss the events in Srebrenica with your brother, and did he

9 tell what had happened on the 13th of July around 1.30 p.m. while you

10 were sleeping and they had already left and you were unable to find them?

11 A. No, I don't like to talk about it.

12 Q. Thank you. In that case, let us look at tab 2, statement 5933.

13 Page 3 in Serbian, paragraph 3.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The number is P933.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.

17 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, this statement is not under seal, but

18 it's probably, out of an abundance of caution, better to not broadcast

19 it.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And should not be broadcast. Thank you.

21 Mr. Tolimir.

22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I am quoting from paragraph 3, that's page 5 in English.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Aleksandar.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 17762

1 Q. Quoting from what your brother said:

2 "After that incident, around 0400 hours, from a distance of about

3 500 metres, Serbs called us on their megaphones to surrender. We

4 lingered for a while, and then the young man who had opened fire on those

5 men who were supposedly Serbs gave me a rifle and told me and another

6 young man to go up to the hill and check if there were Serbs around.

7 Suddenly, we were told to stop and someone asked us where we were headed.

8 We told them we were from Srebrenica, and they replied they were members

9 from a mountain battalion of the Bosnian army. When we approached them,

10 I recognised one man from this battalion. Actually, he was a distant

11 cousin of mine," I won't read out the name, "I don't know his last name.

12 He was a messenger this battalion, and I told him about the shooting

13 incident. And then this man," whose name I'm not going to read out,

14 "confirmed that the three men were from their -- his unit and told us to

15 go back and inform the others about this."

16 Does your cousin say here, in line 6, those who were supposedly

17 Serbs; does it mean that he doubted they were Serbs? And later, in

18 lines 9 and 10, we see that he found those were actually members of a

19 mountain battalion who was supposed to protect you. Can you tell us, is

20 it possible that at this location described by your cousin you were shot

21 at by a unit of that mountain battalion holding themselves out to be

22 Serbs, and they even told you to withdraw?

23 A. Only if that mountain battalion was driving an UNPROFOR APC and

24 wearing UNPROFOR uniforms and calling us balija mother fuckers, only in

25 that case it could be true. But I doubt it.

Page 17763

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would like to clarify one matter.

2 The statement the witness could see and read, and you have quoted from,

3 Mr. Tolimir, is this statement from your brother or your cousin?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President --

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, sorry, I'm asking the witness.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this is

7 my brother's statement. I never saw it before. He personally did not

8 tell me anything about this statement either.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking you that because Mr. Tolimir used the

10 term "your cousin," but at the beginning, "your brother."

11 Ms. Hasan.

12 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, and there seems to be -- I mean, to be

13 fair to the witness, the passage that General Tolimir read out is

14 referring to a time when this witness was not with his brother, as can be

15 seen from paragraph 5, on page 3 of the English version, where he says

16 that he later joined -- found his brother and joined him. And the

17 witness was seemingly answering the question with an understanding that

18 this incident that the brother describes in the paragraph that

19 General Tolimir read is, in fact, an event that took place later when he

20 was present and heard the calls to surrender.

21 So we're talking about two different things, and I think it's

22 confusing the witness.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on, but bear that in

24 mind if that is correct what Ms. Hasan said.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In my

Page 17764

1 previous questions I asked the witness whether it was possible that they

2 were shot at by soldiers from the Brcko Battalion. He said, "No."

3 Later, I read a part of his brother's statement where it says that they

4 were shot at by the Brcko Mountain Battalion.

5 Let's look at P933, second page, second paragraph, or the

6 paragraph before the one that we have just read.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Where it says, and I quote -- I'm quoting from paragraph 3 of the

9 witness's brother's statement, where it says:

10 "A young man in my group --"

11 I apologise. I didn't say that that document was under tab 2.

12 And I repeat my quote:

13 "A young man in my group, I don't know his name, told me to lie

14 down. He had a machine-gun and wanted to fire upon those three men who

15 he said were Chetniks. He opened fire, he killed the two in uniform and

16 hit the third one with a first aid kit in the knee. He remained lying in

17 the grass next to a creek. He asked for help. He said that he was a

18 Muslim but nobody believed him. We left him in the area."

19 And later on, I would like to say that in the third paragraph of

20 your brother's statement we saw that your cousin told your brother that

21 those soldiers were from the Mountain Battalion of the Bosnian Army.

22 That's what he stated in line 6, paragraph 3.

23 I'm asking you this: Does it transpire from this that the

24 soldier who had an automatic rifle and who said to your brother to lie

25 down opened fire and killed the Bosnian army soldier, having mistaken him

Page 17765

1 for a Serb? Is that what it says in your brother's statement?

2 A. I don't know, and I'm not interested.

3 Q. Thank you. I know that you're not interested in this; however,

4 please, did people open fire at each other? Did they kill each other?

5 And did you see and hear that while you were moving through the forest

6 before you surrendered?

7 A. People went mad. I saw a case when a man through a grenade and

8 killed a man in his vicinity, but that was not happening on a large-scale

9 basis.

10 Q. Thank you. Where were you when things were happening as

11 described by your brother in his statement in passages 2 and 3, where he

12 says that Muslims were the ones who were killing BiH Army soldiers?

13 A. I did not have a measuring tape. I could not know where I was,

14 at what distance. I don't know where he was, what he was doing. I told

15 you that I lost him on two or three occasions, and I don't know what he

16 saw, what he did. If you have questions for me about what I saw, I'm

17 here.

18 Q. Yes, I do have a question for you. Let's go to paragraph 4 in

19 your brother's statement, where it says:

20 "When I returned to the young man, he had the automatic rifle and

21 I told him that our soldiers were in the area and I gave the rifle back

22 to him. He told us that we could not join them as we did not have any

23 weapons."

24 My question: Does it transpire from this part of your brother's

25 statement that he had warned the soldier who had given him the rifle that

Page 17766

1 he was actually killing "our own men," and returned the rifle to him?

2 Did -- would you agree that your brother saw that this man in his group

3 was killing BiH Army soldiers?

4 A. I don't know.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.

6 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, there's been a line of questions now

7 about passages from his brother's statement, when clearly the witness was

8 not present. If it's simply to confirm what the document said,

9 respectively, I submit, there's not much value in doing so, in just

10 reading out passages and seeing whether the witness is confirming what

11 the brother has said in this statement.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is really a question whether this kind of

13 question is helping to find out the truth, that's true, especially

14 because P933 is already in evidence. On the other hand, Mr. Tolimir is

15 entitled to put these parts of this statement to the witness if he is

16 able to confirm the content or not, and he receives the answers the

17 witness could give him.

18 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In order to arrive at the absolute truth, I will put another

22 question to this witness.

23 In the last part of this fourth paragraph, your brother says:

24 "He told us that we could not join them as we did not have any

25 weapons."

Page 17767

1 My question is this: Did the BiH Army soldiers have a special

2 mission or a special task, given the fact that they did not allow those

3 without weapons to join them? Thank you.

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. [Microphone not activated]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did they need men with weapons only because they had been given

9 the task to kill people, in view of the fact that civilians were an

10 integral part of the column?

11 A. Could you please repeat your question? Your microphone was off.

12 Q. Since you were deployed as civilians with the Mountain Battalion,

13 how come that all of a sudden they told people that they could not allow

14 civilians without weapons to join them, although their task was to

15 protect civilians? Was that because their task was to kill people and

16 that's why they only needed men with weapons? Thank you.

17 A. First of all, I was not deployed anywhere with any unit. And as

18 for who killed whom, we shouldn't be the judge of that. We have the

19 Judges to be the judge of that. And if you are trying to put to me that

20 I saw members of the Mountain Battalion in Buljim and if you are mixing

21 up my words with the words of my brother, I respectfully don't agree with

22 that.

23 Q. I'm not mixing things up. I'm just quoting from your statement

24 where you said that you were lined up by BiH Army officers, that you were

25 lined up by them to form a column. You said that on page 1 of your

Page 17768

1 statement, D319, line 2 and 3. Thank you.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question in relation to this?

3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

4 Q. My question is this: Why were you mixed up with the military

5 column? Why did Bosnian army civilians deploy you with a military column

6 and you were civilians?

7 A. There was no military column. Let me repeat: Buljim and

8 Kamenica and Sandici, where we were, are not one and the same thing. If

9 there were some attempts to organise a column in Buljim and

10 Jaglic [phoen], and that column consisted of civilians - I would like to

11 emphasize that - I don't see what kind of a military column are you

12 talking about. Who was it who made up a military column? I don't see

13 much point in your question. What you are implying? What you are trying

14 to say?

15 Q. Thank you. You stated, in lines 8 and 9, There were about fifty

16 armed soldiers among us. This means that you were mixed up with the

17 soldiers of the Mountain Battalion; am I right or not?

18 A. There were fifty armed soldiers in Buljim, but that does not mean

19 that those soldiers walked with any of the groups or with me, personally,

20 from then on. I only stated that I had seen them in Buljim and never

21 again after that.

22 Q. Thank you. I have just quoted from a statement, and I don't want

23 to mention the name of the soldier who provided the statement. In that

24 statement, the soldier says, and this statement is D --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir repeat the number, please.

Page 17769

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat the number again of this statement.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 5, D268. Paragraph 3. We will

3 not mention any names. In paragraph 3 of this statement, line 11.

4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. This is the third line from the bottom, where it says:

6 "On that occasion, the 285th Brigade set out first, and it was

7 followed by the 282nd. And his father and his brother were with the

8 latter brigade, and I don't know about -- anything about their fate from

9 then on. Enver told us further on that when the 285th and the

10 282nd Brigades ..." and so on and so forth.

11 My question is this: Do other witnesses speak about the brigades

12 and where they were deployed, were they were mixed up? Can you conclude

13 that from this statement?

14 A. I don't want to interpret other peoples' statements.

15 Q. Thank you. In that case, let's look at tab 9.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to clarify if we have reason to

17 redact page 40, line 19, because there was a name mentioned. I think we

18 should. I see agreement by the parties. We will do that.

19 And please wait for the next document, and then put the next

20 question to the witness.

21 Tab 9 is the document D180.

22 MS. HASAN: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.

24 MS. HASAN: This document is not under seal and I don't see the

25 basis for the redaction. Perhaps we need to go into private session.

Page 17772

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank

3 you.

4 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And now we see in front of us: "Handbook on the Law of War for

9 Armed Forces." This was published by the International Red Cross. It

10 brings The Hague and the Geneva Conventions and how they regulate the

11 rules of war. You said that you were not a military analyst, but let's

12 look at pages 3 and 5, paragraph 56, in the Serbian and English

13 respectively.

14 Now we can see paragraph 56. Can it be zoomed in. It's the

15 first paragraph from the top where it says:

16 "A military target remains a military target even if civilian

17 persons are in it. The civilian persons within such a target or object

18 or its immediate surroundings share the danger to which it is exposed."

19 My question to you is this: If civilians are mixed up with a

20 military column or in its vicinity, would you say that they also become a

21 military target? Thank you.

22 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, before --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Hasan.

24 MS. HASAN: If I may, before the witness answers this question,

25 the witness was 16 years old at the time. He's not a legal expert nor is

Page 17773

1 he a military analyst, as he's already said. I don't see where this

2 question is going, and I don't think this is an appropriate witness to

3 put that kind of a question to.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Even if I agree, I would say the witness could

5 provide us with exactly such an answer.

6 Sir, are you able to answer this question of Mr. Tolimir?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, I will answer your

8 question. In no case was this a legitimate military target. My answer

9 is this: There were no legitimate military targets because there was

10 nobody there but civilians. If we're talking about the column as it was

11 up to Sandici, under no definition could that be considered a legitimate

12 military target.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Bearing in mind what the Prosecutor said and

15 bearing in mind how old you were, that's why I quoted this. You said you

16 were not a military expert, but those military officers who mixed you up

17 with a column should have been aware of the rules of war. Would you

18 agree with that, yes or no, those who lined you up at Buljim and mixed

19 you up with the military column, were they supposed to know what they

20 were doing in accordance with the military rules and laws?

21 A. I don't know that.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if this is a correct representation

23 of what the witness told us about the soldiers and the composition of the

24 column where he was in. Please be careful in phrasing your questions.

25 Carry on, please.

Page 17774

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

2 no further questions about this. I know that the witness was young and

3 he was not in a position to know anything about that, but there were

4 soldiers there and they should have known.

5 In any way, thank you.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Now, please, could you tell us whether you have recently heard of

8 a problem or a projection of a film about Srebrenica in Sweden and

9 Muslims have protested against that. I don't know where you currently

10 live; that's why I am asking you.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know that on television in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in

13 the Republika Srpska there was a programme featuring eye-witnesses of the

14 breakthrough and how the massacre happened. Do you know who Meholjic is?

15 He was one of the eye-witnesses.

16 A. Meholjic does ring a bell, but I did not see the programme and I

17 did not hear those statements. I would love to hear them.

18 Q. Thank you. In that case, we will now look at the statement of

19 Mr. Meholjic. It's under tab 3. It's D277. The title of the document

20 is: "5.000 Muslim Heads in Exchange for a Military Intervention." That's

21 an interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of War Presidency of

22 Srebrenica, given to a Bosnian newspaper called "Dani." I will just

23 quote from the introduction:

24 "In your accusations against the state leadership, and

25 particularly against President Izetbegovic, saying they are partly to

Page 17775

1 blame for the tragedy in Srebrenica, the departure of the Srebrenica

2 delegation to Sarajevo in September 1993 for talks about the fate of this

3 enclave is an inevitable subject."

4 And then the interviewer asks:

5 "So you rejected Izetbegovic's offer?"

6 And Meholjic answers:

7 "We rejected it without any discussion. Then he said: 'You

8 know, I was offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska

9 and Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces should enter Srebrenica,

10 carry out a slaughter of 5.000 Muslims, and then there will be a military

11 intervention.'"

12 My question to you is: Have you ever heard anything about this?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Can we turn the page now to look at page 2, where the

15 interviewer asks Mr. Meholjic the following question:

16 "Even after the fall of Srebrenica in 1995, you had occasion to

17 address President Izetbegovic?"

18 Meholjic answers:

19 "At that time, I requested that a state commission be established

20 to inquiry into the responsibility of the international community, the

21 responsibility of the president, the General Staff, the 2nd Corps, and

22 our own responsibility ... people are missing ... and he," meaning

23 President Izetbegovic, "asked me: 'And what would that give me?'"

24 Do you know that this topic was on the table in 1993, in 1994, in

25 1995, even after the fall of Srebrenica and the tragedy in Srebrenica,

Page 17776

1 and that it's still topical in the public opinion of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina?

3 A. In 1993 to 1995, my only thoughts were about finding some food to

4 survive. The rest is rubbish. I didn't care what was going on around.

5 I know only what happened to me. I don't care about what Hakija said or

6 what Clinton said. I know that my family and many other people were

7 killed. There was 67 men in my village before the war, and now we are

8 four men. They were all killed. What Hakija and all these people are

9 saying, I don't care, and I couldn't have heard it, anyway.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you. The first

11 reason is he was really a boy at that time, 1993; he was 14 years old. I

12 think you should focus on what you can gain from him and which knowledge

13 he has from his point of view.

14 We must have our second break now. I would like to ask you how

15 much time you will need for the remainder of your cross-examination, have

16 you any idea?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

18 witness said that he would like to hear what Meholjic said, so I showed

19 him. And I have one minute of video footage to show him what Meholjic

20 said, and after that I will move to my final questions. Thank you.

21 I will need perhaps 15 minutes.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We must have, on technical

23 reasons, our second break now. But before we break, I have to discuss

24 one matter in private session. We turn into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 17788

1 further trial, for your Defence case, how much time you will need, and

2 what are your intentions. We would be very glad if we could receive now

3 some more information about your plans.

4 Mr. Gajic.

5 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, our estimate is that

6 we have a lot of time and we believe that we will be able to start

7 presenting the Defence case after the winter recess. We still have a lot

8 of material to review, some of it I have to receive in Belgrade after the

9 end of the Prosecution case. Our experts still have a lot of work to do.

10 Unfortunately, Mr. Butler testified very recently and it will take some

11 time to review his testimony. However, we will do our best to be ready

12 as soon as the winter recess is over.

13 As for the 65 ter list of exhibits that we want to use during the

14 Defence case, we would like to submit that on the eve of the winter

15 recess so as to enable everybody to prepare adequate translations during

16 the winter break.

17 As for the Defence case, don't hold me to my estimate because we

18 still have to establish the number of witnesses, but we believe that we

19 will need about a month to present our case if we continue working four

20 days a week.

21 And I would kindly ask both the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution

22 to take this as a rather realistic estimate, more to the detriment of the

23 Defence than anything else, because there is really a lot of material

24 that we have to review in the meantime. We have had some problems with

25 translations. Mr. Tolimir does not speak English. The transcript is

Page 17789

1 voluminous, which poses an additional difficulty. I don't know whether

2 you believe me when I say that all of our team members are engaged in

3 translation. Obviously, we need some time to translate our expert

4 witnesses' reports, and we will do our best to provide all those

5 translation before the end of the winter recess.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it, Mr. Gajic, that the whole Defence case

7 will last one month. Is that your rough estimation for the moment?

8 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Unless we are

9 not given enough time for preparations, a month. What we can announce

10 already now, that in addition to the witnesses we will also submit a

11 request to bar -- to tender some of the exhibits from bar table, and

12 this, I believe, will facilitate the entire Defence case.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Nevertheless, I am quite astonished to hear that

14 you are requesting a four-month break for preparation of the Defence

15 case. This is a rather long period. If you compare that with other

16 cases in this Tribunal, this is really a rather long time.

17 Does the Prosecution have something to submit in that respect?

18 Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, good afternoon. Good afternoon,

20 Your Honours. I think I will largely put that ball back in your court.

21 It is a long time. The general is mostly representing himself and there

22 is a lot of material, and I'm happy to hear that it's only a one-month

23 Defence case. But having said that, I would, again, rely on the

24 judgement of the Trial Chamber to do the best thing on this issue.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

Page 17790

1 Mr. Gajic.

2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I hate to object. You

3 said four months, but that also includes the winter recess, which starts

4 in mid-December and ends around mid-January, and we have counted that in.

5 I could have also told you that we can start on the last day before the

6 recess. The recess will be a working time for us, unlike some other

7 Defence teams which had two Defence counsel, Case Managers, and

8 investigators. I have to say that this is the smallest Defence team in

9 the history of the Tribunal. There is a lot of work, a lot of

10 translation work; that is why I appeal to you for your understanding.

11 During that time, this legal advisor will have to travel

12 thousands of kilometres, not only between Belgrade and The Hague but also

13 to some other destinations where we will have to interview some potential

14 witnesses and obtain certain documents. Unfortunately, things take time.

15 When we submit requests for documentation, it also takes time for those

16 documents to be located and to be sent. And I believe that my learned

17 friends from the Prosecution will understand when I say that when they

18 receive a document, they first have to check what of those things are

19 relevant, what not. Some of those documents are already ready for me to

20 pick up. I have to go personally to those locations and to pick up the

21 documentation, but I don't know what I will find there. Also, we have

22 received some materials pursuant to Rule 68 from the Prosecutor only

23 recently. We have to review those. We have not had time to do that.

24 There are some other disclosure as well. Yesterday, or the day

25 before yesterday, you had an occasion to hear how many documents are

Page 17791

1 there in the Pecanac collection. All those are factors that I believe

2 have to be borne in mind when considering the time required by the

3 Defence to prepare. Also, our experts have a lot of things to do.

4 During the trial, I have slept four hours a night, but I can't

5 expect the same from our experts and other individuals who are going to

6 be involved in the preparations for the Defence case. Obviously, we

7 would like to prepare our case so that everything runs smoothly without

8 any glitches or delays. Obviously, if things are well prepared, that can

9 be done and we will be able to present all of our Defence case within the

10 scope of one month.

11 One more thing we have had in mind: When bringing our witnesses

12 in, we don't want to bring those witnesses who will repeat things that

13 already are on file. We want to provide the Trial Chamber with some new

14 information which may be of a very high relevance for this

15 Trial Chamber's decision.

16 On my internal list, I already have somebody who may be called to

17 provide an adequate testimony, but first I have to check whether this

18 will indeed be of help to the Trial Chamber or whether this will be a

19 repetition of things that are already known. We don't want to go over

20 the same grounds again. We would like to provide the Trial Chamber with

21 new things, something that they have not heard before. We want our

22 experts to provide proper and good analysis. Unfortunately, all that

23 takes time, and we believe that the time-span which brings us to the end

24 of the winter recess is an adequate period of time.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this.

Page 17792

1 Before I give the floor, Mr. McCloskey, I would like to confirm

2 that Mr. Gajic was not sleeping enough during the trial. One night we

3 received at 4.00 in the morning and 16 minutes an e-mail from Mr. Gajic,

4 which I read only in the morning, not during night-time. This is just a

5 confirmation of what he just said.

6 Thank you for your information about your proposed work. The

7 Chamber will take that into account, of course.

8 Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: It may be helpful if we can get an estimate on

10 when the experts will be done with their reports, because if there are

11 experts, like a military expert, as suggested by Mr. Gajic, and if they

12 are Serbian, it is, of course, important for us all to have an English

13 translation. And if it's a lengthy Butler-type report, that will, of

14 course, take some time for CLSS. And I don't -- a matter of this import,

15 we really will need an English translation prior to cross-examination.

16 So that's just one logistical detail to bear in mind.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. The Chamber will consider the

18 submissions by the parties and the request of the Defence. We will come

19 back to the parties next week before the close of the Prosecution case.

20 Mr. Gajic, you have the floor again.

21 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to Mr. McCloskey's

22 question I would like to answer by saying that when we requested this

23 period of time to prepare for our Defence case, we have had in mind this

24 concern of his. Obviously, we would not want to call the witness without

25 giving the Trial Chamber an opportunity to review the material that such

Page 17793

1 a witness will be discussed in the courtroom.

2 I will do my best to chase our experts and ask them to finish as

3 soon as possible, but there are a lot of materials. They will have a lot

4 of work. I repeat, I will try to concentrate on only the most important

5 and relevant things. Please rest assured that the time-period that we

6 have requested is only the minimum time-period that we really need.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, again. I think we have now everything

8 on the record, and we will take it into our consideration.

9 One last matter I just want to raise. On the 7th of July, last

10 year, 2010, we heard Witness Zlatan Celanovic, and during

11 cross-examination, Mr. Tolimir, you used parts of the book "Chronicles of

12 our Graveyard." The same day, the Chamber invited the parties to try to

13 find an agreement which parts of this book should be tendered and

14 received into evidence because the translation of the whole book would be

15 a heavy burden for the Translation Unit. Therefore, I would kindly ask

16 you next week to provide us with your common understanding about the

17 parts of this book which should be translated. There is no translation

18 yet of the whole book. Therefore, in order to finalise these things

19 before the close of the Prosecution case, we would be glad if we could

20 receive such a submission next would, too.

21 Thank you very much. This concludes the hearing of today. We

22 will resume on Monday, 2.15, in this courtroom. We adjourn for the week.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of

25 September, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.