1 Tuesday, 13 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom. If
6 there are no procedural matters, we -- Mr. McCloskey, I see you on your
7 feet. You have the floor.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,
9 everyone. Just briefly as I think everyone knows -- and could we go into
10 private session?
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
12 [Private session]
5 [Closed session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
19 Please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
23 yourself comfortable.
24 There are also in this trial protective measures in place for
25 you. You will not be addressed by your real name but by a pseudonym, and
1 now Mr. Vanderpuye for the Prosecution is commencing his
3 You have the floor, Mr. Vanderpuye.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you,
5 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
6 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
7 Q. Good morning to you, Witness. I'd like to show you -- I'd like
8 to show you 65 ter 7539, and if you would please just take a look at that
9 and confirm that you're the person named in this document without telling
10 us your name.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be on the screen in a moment.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE:
13 Q. Witness, are you able to confirm that that's your name that
14 appears in this document?
15 A. My surname, my last name, is correct, but there's a mistake in
16 the first letter. Otherwise, everything is fine.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should try to clarify.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I will, Mr. President.
20 Q. The first letter that you refer to, is that -- should the first
21 letter be --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Shall we go into private session for a moment?
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, we should go into private session,
24 Mr. President. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
1 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document 65 ter 7539 will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7539 marked in
18 court by the witness shall be assigned Exhibit P2650, admitted under
19 seal. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Witness, do you recall having testified in the case of
23 Prosecutor versus Popovic on the 10th and 11th of January, 2007?
24 A. Yes, I do remember having testified during that time.
25 Q. Have you had an opportunity to -- one moment. Just a moment.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President, but
3 Mr. Tolimir has -- is experiencing some technical problem. He can't hear
4 properly through his headset. He cannot hear the witness. He can hear
5 everybody else in the courtroom but not the witness.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This problem should be resolved first. Court
7 usher is assisting.
8 Mr. Gajic.
9 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I propose that the
10 witness say something so that we can check to see if Mr. Tolimir is
11 receiving him.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I think everything is in order now.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should just continue and
15 Mr. Tolimir's invited to indicate immediately if there are any problems
16 with the interpretation or receiving the original language.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you again, Mr. President.
18 Q. Witness, have you had an opportunity to listen to your testimony
19 before testifying here today, that is, your Popovic testimony?
20 A. Yes, I have had that opportunity.
21 Q. And having listened to your Popovic testimony, do you stand by
22 it; that is, would you give the same answers to the same questions if
23 they are put to you in this case?
24 A. As far as possible, I would confirm everything.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to offer into
2 evidence the witness's prior testimony, which is 65 ter 7537 under seal
3 and 7538, together with the associated exhibits that were tendered
4 through him in that proceeding.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The transcript of the Popovic trial will be
6 received, the former one under seal.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 7537 shall be
8 assigned can be number P2651, admitted under seal.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The other documents in the list which were
10 admitted in the Popovic trial will be received as well. That means the
11 long list starting with 65 ter 1667 through 65 ter 75 -- no, sorry.
12 Mr. Vanderpuye, you should clarify which of those should be part
13 of this so-called Popovic package, especially as I see some documents
14 with a little star and the indication that they were not yet on the
15 65 ter exhibit list.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. All of those documents were
17 tendered through the witness, that's through 7549 -- yes, through 7549.
18 The ones with the star were not on the 65 ter list originally. Those are
19 documents that were tendered through the -- or by the Defence in the
20 other proceeding, and so they weren't originally part of our 65 ter list,
21 but they do constitute part and parcel of his testimony. For that
22 reason, we're tendering them as well.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the usual question again. Do you
24 have any objections to add the documents used in the Popovic trial but
25 not yet in the 65 ter exhibit list to the 65 ter exhibit list of the
1 Prosecution? That means the documents 65 ter from 7540 through 7549.
2 Are there any objections?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May
4 there be peace in this house, and may God's wishes be done and not my
5 wish. I would like to welcome the witness in our midst.
6 We have no problem to have that adopted, to have the Popovic
7 document adopted. So we have no objection, and the Prosecutor is free to
8 proceed as he sees fit. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add these documents to the
10 65 ter exhibit list, and all those will be received as exhibits. The
11 best way to put P numbers to them is by internal memorandum by the
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The transcripts of the testimony of the witness
15 in the Popovic case will be received, 65 ter 7537 under seal, and we want
16 to have the P number now.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 7537 has been assigned P2651
18 under seal, and the redacted one 65 ter document 7538 shall be assigned
19 Exhibit P2652. Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the other documents will get a P number by an
21 internal memorandum.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a brief
24 summary of the witness's testimony I'd like to read into the record.
25 The witness adopted his OTP witness statement of 5 May 1999 and
1 provided the following evidence on the 10th and 11th of January, 2007, in
2 the Popovic case.
3 I'll need to go into private session for a moment, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
5 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 The witness testified that there were between two and five
3 workstations the intercept operators of the northern site used and
4 described in detail the procedures and protocols they followed. The
5 witness described how he would listen to radio intercepts and recorded
6 important conversations. The taped conversations were transcribed into
7 notebooks as soon as practicable after the tapes were reviewed, sometimes
8 multiple times if necessary. The notebooks were then given to a
9 designated typist or cryptographer who was responsible for entering the
10 transcribed conversations into a computer and sending it off
11 electronically to the 2nd Corps command.
12 New notebooks were generally not opened until the circulating
13 notebooks were full. Prior to February 1995, intercepts were transcribed
14 on pieces of paper rather than notebooks at the northern site.
15 The interception process was prioritised. For example,
16 conversations involving VRS generals were considered important, whereas
17 those involving ordinary citizens tended not to yield as good
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down a little bit, I think.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: The witness testified that as a rule, everything
21 said during a conversation was written down. Summaries were rare.
22 However, as important information sometimes needed to be extracted from
23 apparently unimportant conversations, brief summaries were made. Also in
24 very urgent situations, information was relayed directly over a wire
25 communication -- a wire connection or even open telephone lines.
1 The witness described how intercepts were marked. For example,
2 he noted that "as a rule, if something is in brackets and if there is a
3 question mark, then the person transcribing had doubts as to the identity
4 of that person and would ascribe another sign to that person, namely an
5 X." Through his experience the witness was sometimes able to identify
6 the voices of the individuals he intercepted, including Vinko Pandurevic
7 and Generals Simic, Zivanovic, and Tolimir.
8 Finally, the witness identified 29 handwritten intercepts as his
10 Mr. President, that concludes my summary, and I have a few
11 additional questions for the witness.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Please proceed.
13 Mr. Gajic.
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like an
15 explanation, namely on page 7, line 23, the Prosecutor said that the
16 witness accepted the statement given on the 9th -- on the 5th of May, but
17 I don't see it on the Prosecution list. Is that an omission or was that
18 statement not accepted and admitted in the Popovic trial, because
19 following the Popovic trial, they had a different practice. It was only
20 subsequently that they admitted documents into evidence. So I'd just
21 like an explanation from Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm not sure if it's on our exhibit list, it may
24 not be, but in any event, it's on the first page of the transcript
25 concerning his Popovic testimony.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have read the
3 transcript from this witness's testimony in the Popovic trial, but I see
4 that we haven't dealt with this witness's statement. So it's not on my
5 list, at least as far as I can see. On the Prosecution list, that is.
6 If I'm wrong, please correct me.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: You may be right.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: My point is you may be right, that it might not
10 be on the exhibit list, and if it isn't that's an omission, but the
11 statement itself is directly and specifically referenced in the
12 transcript of the testimony. What I've read is a summary of that
13 testimony, and so if there's any uncertainty as to whether or not the
14 witness said what he -- what he did about his statement, that can be
15 found in the first page of his testimony in Popovic case which Mr. Gajic
16 has indicated that he's read. If there's an omission in the exhibit
17 list, I will remedy that by providing that -- that -- that exhibit. If
18 it was admitted. It may not have been, but it was specifically referred
19 to nonetheless.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you referring to the OTP -- witness statement
21 of 5th of May, 1999?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Indeed.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may proceed, and we will see whether or not
24 you will use this or not or if the Defence will use it or not.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: You may have noticed that it is referred to in
1 the statements of the witness that is appended to the exhibit list, and I
2 think that's quite explicit in that list. It's just a question of
3 whether or not it appears also in the category of exhibits that were
4 admitted through the witness, which I don't believe it does, but like I
5 said that's probably just an omission that needs to be corrected.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, it is the first item in the attachment to
7 the exhibit list to be used with the witness by the Prosecution. Without
8 a 65 ter number but with the ERN numbers and the date of disclosure in
9 English and B/C/S to the Defence.
10 Please go ahead, Mr. Vanderpuye.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll need to go into
12 private session for just a moment.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 17888-17889 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it, Mr. Vanderpuye, that you're tendering
14 65 ter 3045E, but not A.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would actually like to tender all versions of
16 it, Mr. President. They are A and E, and they are the same intercept.
17 One is a handwritten, and one is a printout version of that intercept.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Both versions will be
19 received as exhibits. That one with a letter E under seal.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3045E shall be
21 assigned Exhibit P2653, admitted under seal. And 65 ter document 3045A
22 shall be assigned Exhibit P2654. Thank you, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Witness, when we met yesterday, did you have an opportunity to
1 look over five intercepts that were shown to you?
2 A. I saw copies of those intercepts in my handwriting.
3 Q. And would those have been intercepts that you took down during
4 the course and scope of your duties and responsibilities as an intercept
5 operator back in July 1995?
6 A. The copies I saw correspond to my handwriting and the manner in
7 which we wrote down the intercepted conversations.
8 Q. What I'd like you to do if you could, and you'll let me know if
9 it's necessary, is take a look at tabs 1 through 5, the very last ones in
10 the binder that I indicated before, and from that point on -- and take a
11 look and see if you can recognise your handwriting in the intercepts that
12 are contained under each of those tabs.
13 A. Yes. Except for one tab where the handwriting belongs to another
14 colleague, all the rest are in my handwriting.
15 Q. And which tab are you referring to?
16 A. In tab 3, the handwriting is that of a colleague of mine above my
17 handwriting, so part of that document is in my handwriting. Yes. And
18 there's another page before that. I apologise.
19 Q. Okay. Is the page before that in your handwriting?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, Mr. President, tabs 1 through 5
22 are 65 ter numbers -- I think we've just received tab 2. We've just
23 gotten a P number for. So it's 65 ter number 3475, and then we have A
24 and C -- B and C, and then we have the tab 2 which was just admitted in
25 evidence, then we have P2488. That's tab 3, which consists of -- oh. I
1 see we have -- and also I'd like to tender 65 ter 3070D, which is the
2 printout under that tab of the intercept. And then we have under tab
3 4 -- under tab 4 we have 65 ter 3107A and C, and under tab 5, 65 ter
4 3108A and B.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have finished with reading the numbers of
6 those documents you want to have -- having been admitted; is that
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So these documents under tab 1, 3, 4, 5, will be
11 admitted into evidence, but I will read the numbers into the transcript,
12 because the registrar doesn't have a binder.
13 Firstly, 65 ter 347B -- sorry, again. 65 ter 3475B and C will be
14 received as exhibits, the first one under seal.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3475B shall be
16 assigned Exhibit P2655, admitted under seal. And the 65 ter document
17 3475C shall and assigned Exhibit P2656. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. 65 ter 3107A and C will be received
19 as exhibits, the latter one under seal.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 3107A shall be
21 assigned Exhibit 2657. And 65 ter document 3107C shall be assigned
22 Exhibit P2658, admitted under seal. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. We continue 65 ter 3108A and B will
24 be received as exhibits, the latter one end seal.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 3108A shall be assigned
1 Exhibit P2659. And the 65 ter document 3108B shall be assigned
2 Exhibit P2660, admitted under seal. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And lastly -- and lastly, the Exhibit 65 ter
4 3070D will be received under seal.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 3070D shall be assigned
6 Exhibit P2661, admitted under seal. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not quite sure if we have already received
8 the other two under tab 2. I think so, but I'm not sure. We should
9 check that again.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe we did
11 receive that just a moment ago. It's been given P2654 and P2653
12 respectively. That's A and E versions.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you indeed. Then we have this resolved,
14 and I just would like to put on the record the reason for admission of
15 these documents. The witness has confirmed that he saw in the original
16 document his handwriting, except one part of one page.
17 Please continue.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show the
19 witness 65 -- well, I think we have an exhibit number now. It's tab 1.
20 65 ter -- I'm sorry, P2656 -- yeah, P2656 is fine.
21 Q. Witness, I'd like to draw your attention to -- I think we're
22 waiting for the translation. Yes. To the entry here indicated at
23 channel 11 21:43, and we can see here an indication that this is a
24 conversation between an individual named Krsmanovic and someone named
25 Toso. First, are you familiar with those names? Can you recall those
1 names in the context of your work back then?
2 A. Well, there are many names I can't recall, and I can't recall
3 these names either.
4 Q. All right. Now, with respect to this particular intercept, it
5 says that Krsmanovic, in a conversation or "discussion with Toso about
6 the problem of transportation that Krsmanovic mentioned 10 buses and 14
7 trucks in relation to the means that are not requisitioned." And then in
8 quotes it says: "That was the situation today."
9 First, is this an example of a summary of an intercepted
11 A. As a rule, this is a conversation which was probably not
12 especially important, so what might have been interesting for our command
13 was extracted from it. If a conversation is evaluated as unimportant but
14 there's something that might be useful in it, then that bit is extracted.
15 Q. All right. I'd like to show you a printout of this conversation,
16 which is P2655, and you'll see it under tab 1. You'll see the
17 typewritten version of this conversation at the third page of that
18 typewritten --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE:
21 Q. -- transcript. First let me start with the top -- with this
22 document that's on the screen, page 1, which indicates the location and
23 the date of 16 July 1995. The report number --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you should wait until we have the
25 English translation on the screen.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And again, it should not be broadcast.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm not sure that the caption of the document
4 has been translated. I think only the intercept has been translated in
5 the English.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Please continue.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. In any event you can see at the top it says Armija Republika
9 Bosne i Hercegovine, and then it says the command of the 2nd Corps, and
10 then it indicates the location case which we've not -- which we haven't
11 referred to directly, because it's -- then you can see the date of 16
12 July 1995, and then the report number which is 25/16795.
13 Below that we can see the time of the first intercept in this
14 report series at 19:41 hours. And if we go to page 3 of the document in
15 the B/C/S, we will see an entry for 21:43, channel 9 [sic], which is the
16 conversation that we just saw, it's at the bottom of the page, that we
17 just saw in your handwriting a few moments ago.
18 So with respect to this particular intercept, would it be correct
19 to say that it was recorded -- I mean, written down by you close in time
20 to when the conversation actually occurred?
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
22 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 20, line 8,
23 it says "channel 9." However, as far as I can see, at least from the
24 printed version I have here on the screen, it's channel 11.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be channel 11. It's channel 11 in the
2 handwritten, and it should be channel 11 in the printout which I think we
3 can all see, so perhaps it's just an error in the transcript.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The other possibility is that you misspoke.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: A very remote one, but thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Would it be fair to say that this conversation would have been
7 transcribed, that is written down by you, close in time to when the
8 conversation itself occurred?
9 A. I believe that is the case, yes.
10 Q. And would that have been given to the typist and inputted in the
11 computer to generate this typewritten information on the date that's
12 reflected in the caption of this report, that is, the 16th of July, 1995?
13 A. That was the practice. Information would be given to the
14 communications guy on duty to be forwarded to the command.
15 Q. And just so that I'm clear anyway, the reference here to Toso, do
16 you have a recollection of who that would have been or who that was back
17 then in July 1995, to your knowledge?
18 A. I can't recall. It escapes me at the moment. I don't know who
19 the person was.
20 Q. All right. I just have one more document to show you, and
21 that's -- and that's P773. Just a moment and I'll give you the
22 handwritten -- P773B, please. That should be the handwritten version of
23 this intercept.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where can we find it in the binder?
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thanks, Mr. President. Just a moment, and
1 I'll ...
2 You will find that under tab 25, Mr. President.
3 Q. Here we have an intercept from the 22nd of July, 1995. It's
4 timed at 9:28 hours, and it indicates that this is a conversation between
5 Popovic, it says X, and General Tolimir. In this conversation we can see
6 that P is looking for General Tolimir and X says that he's right next to
7 him. P asks to speak to him and says, "This is Popovic." And then we
8 can see the transition and apparently T gets -- Tolimir gets on the
9 phone. And we have a conversation that ensues where Popovic is trying to
10 find out some information concerning a relative of his so that he can
11 tell the family something.
12 Do you have a present recollection of who the Popovic is that's
13 in this -- is a speaker in this intercept?
14 A. It's been a long time, so I don't remember either the
15 participants in the conversation or the details of it, so I can only
16 assume, which isn't very helpful to you.
17 Q. And the General Tolimir that's indicated here, do you have a
18 present recollection about him?
19 A. There were several conversations, as far as I remember, where the
20 general appeared, either himself or he was -- people asked to speak to
21 him, but I don't remember the details.
22 Q. But in any case, the General Tolimir that's referred to here, I
23 take it, was a VRS officer.
24 A. Yes, a very important person as far as we were concerned, those
25 of us who intercepted these conversations.
1 Q. If we go to the second page in the B/C/S, we can see here at the
2 top of the page that Popovic is trying to get certain information, and
3 lower down on the page we can see that General Tolimir asks him how
4 things are going, and we can see that Popovic's response is that there
5 are no problems, and he says that he's at his base. He also says that
6 there's some business to be finished. And if we go to the next page in
7 English, and I think we can go down the page in the B/C/S. We'll see
8 that General Tolimir tells him to just do his job. And if we go to the
9 next page, I think, in the B/C/S, we may see the same thing.
10 Has it -- let me ask it this way: Did -- did you have
11 information about a Popovic VRS officer while you were doing this
12 particular function? Did you know of any particular Popovic VRS officer?
13 A. I don't remember. There were many officers. I don't remember
14 Popovic specifically. Perhaps if we talked at the time, but I don't
16 Q. All right. Let me ask you just a couple of questions and then
17 we'll be finished.
18 Were you aware of any Popovic that worked in the Drina Corps of
19 the VRS?
20 A. I knew -- well, I heard, whether then or later, I had heard of
21 the man who led the Bratunac Brigade, and I heard a conversation
22 somewhere in the evening at around 8.00 when this man was engaged in a
23 conversation. He'd come back from the location.
24 Q. All right. Well, thank you very much, Witness. I appreciate
25 your testimony, and that concludes my direct examination.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 Sir, now Mr. Tolimir has the opportunity to put questions to you
4 during his cross-examination.
5 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like
7 to greet all those present once again, the witness, too, and wish him a
8 pleasant stay here with us.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Now, could you tell us, please, in this summary
11 here and in your answers, we could see that you went to some sort of
12 course, attended a course, before you started working in the unit -- in
13 the Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit as Mr. Vanderpuye said during his
14 examination-in-chief. Is that correct? And could you tell us what that
15 course was and how long it lasted?
16 A. I arrived in the unit in August 1994, and I started working
17 before the course got going. The course started sometime in the second
18 half of September and went on for the first half of October of 1994.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, please, whether that was the only
20 course you attended, or did you have any additional training in some
21 other unit, perhaps, or in your corps or outside your corps, or outside
22 the army, for that matter? Thank you.
23 A. No. There was no other training, just that course which was
24 organised in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether, having done your military
1 service, you were sent to any other training courses abroad or outside
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Thank you.
3 A. Having done my military service, I was a member -- well, that was
4 my obligation in the Territorial Defence and later on civilian
5 protection, but I didn't go anywhere else. I didn't go abroad with
6 respect to the establishment in the Territorial Defence and civilian
7 protection system.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us now whether you have tapes of those
9 29 conversations that you were shown and that you transcribed in your own
10 hand? Thank you.
11 A. I don't believe tapes like that exist. Perhaps some tape might
12 still remain, but they were used again. They were deleted. So I doubt
13 very much whether the tapes of those 29 conversations exist. Perhaps
14 there were some earlier tapes before, before 1995, but I don't know about
16 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, please, whether you were shown
17 during the proofing session with Mr. Vanderpuye, when he showed you the
18 conversations, whether there was someone from the chain of command above
19 you who used those transcripts, the ones that you transcribed in your own
20 hand? Thank you.
21 A. Well, linked to the chain of command on the ground on my shift I
22 was the person who was, if I can put it that way, in charge, the first
23 person in the chain of command in that process. So nobody else looked at
24 that -- at those transcriptions, but when it did go to the command, I
25 didn't have any feedback information. So that is just linked to my own
1 handwritten transcripts.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, of the transcripts that you were shown here
3 which are originals and the Prosecutor showed you, on any of those
4 conversations that you transcribed in your own handwriting were -- were
5 there any initials by any of the users of the information up the chain of
6 command above you? Did anybody initial any of those transcripts?
7 A. No. I didn't see any markings like that, any signature or
8 initials. There was just this -- the signature of the signalsman who
9 forwarded this.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Vanderpuye showed you a document of a
11 conversation between Krsmanovic and Toso, and I quote -- I forgot to make
12 a note of the tab. It's tab 3. Krsmanovic says in a discussion about
13 the problems of transport with the participant Toso, "he mentioned some
14 10 buses and 14 trucks, 9 with regard to -- well, things that have not
15 been mobilised," and then that's the end of the quotation, and then in
16 brackets it says, "That was the case today," in inverted commas.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I think it's another tab. Could you
18 assist us.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's tab 1,
20 Exhibit P2656.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Aleksandar. I apologise
23 if you weren't able to follow me.
24 Q. So let's look at tab 1 now, document P2656. Was that the right
25 number? So if you could read that and then I'll ask you a question.
1 Would you be able to identify this person Toso and Krsmanovic on
2 the basis of this note on their conversation? Thank you.
3 A. I don't know who these people are. The conversation is so short
4 that I don't believe I can say any more than that. I really don't know
5 who those two men were.
6 Q. Thank you. But if the Court were to establish -- need to
7 establish who these people are, could you identify the participants given
8 a description? Thank you.
9 A. I can't say any more than I've already said and any more than is
10 written here. They introduced themselves. They said what they said. I
11 transcribed and took note of what they said, and that's all I can tell
13 Q. Thank you. Now, is this a summary of what they said or is it
14 direct speech? Is it their direct speech or related speech?
15 A. Well, I see that we have both, a quotation and a summary. So
16 it's a combination of the two. The inverted commas were quotation, and I
17 had to round it off for the command so that they could understand.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what the quoted part of the
19 conversation is and which participant in the conversation uttered those
21 A. In brackets is the quotation. Now, since I did not conduct a
22 detailed analysis, I assume it was Mr. Krsmanovic who said that.
23 Q. Thank you. Is that your assumption or can you claim that with
24 certainty? And on the basis of this related conversation, can we
25 actually ever establish who said what? Thank you.
1 A. This isn't a conversation that was conducted in the usual
2 procedure. Well, not conversation. I mean transcription. The
3 transcription wasn't made according to standard procedure, so we can't
4 see who said what. So it's difficult to identify anything. This is just
5 my assumption, and I can no longer remember who said what, actually. We
6 see what it says here, and that's the best I can do.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, are there any conversations which you were shown
8 here at the Tribunal as transcripts of the source that there is -- that
9 was initialled by the user of the information?
10 A. No, I haven't seen any such conversation here. Well, I
11 apologise. Let me be more precise. You said in the original version.
12 In the original version, I have never seen anything like that except some
13 handwriting and some additional figures, numbers. Otherwise, nothing
14 more than that.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm not going to say your name because you're a
16 protected witness. Thank you for coming here to testify today. The
17 Defence has no further questions four. May God bless you and I wish you
18 bon voyage back home.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence rests.
20 We have further questions for this witness, thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, I don't.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this
24 concludes already your examination here in this trial. Now you are free
25 to return to your normal activities and go home. The Chamber would like
1 to thank you for coming here to The Hague and for assisting us.
2 The court usher will assist you in leaving the courtroom. We go
3 into closed session for a moment to enable you to leave the courtroom.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 [Closed session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you on your feet.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I had a chance to look over
18 the exhibit sheet in relation to the statement that Mr. Gajic was
19 remarking about, and I did find it, actually, on there. It's already
20 admitted in this case under P839, and it's on page 9 of the exhibit
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Correct. I found it as well. It's under seal.
23 Mr. Gajic, do you agree?
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I have no reason to believe
25 Mr. Vanderpuye. I assume there must be a list. I probably have a
1 different list because one, two, or three lists have circulated, so quite
2 possibly I have a previous list.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I take it that you --
4 THE INTERPRETER: "I have no reason not to believe
5 Mr. Vanderpuye." Interpreter's correction.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, this is what I thought you would have
7 said. As always in this trial, that's a common understanding and a good
9 Mr. Gajic.
10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes. I was
11 misinterpreted. What I said was I have no reason not to believe
12 Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
14 Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. There are also a
16 number of -- on page 11 of the exhibit sheet, we have a number of
17 notebooks, full notebooks, that have been MFI'd. I don't see that
18 there's any reason to tender those fully. We don't have translations for
19 the entire notebook.
20 [Prosecutor and case manager confer]
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: We are not intending to translate the entire
22 notebook because we don't think that it's necessary in order for the
23 purposes of -- for the purposes of their admissibility. I don't know if
24 the Defence has a problem with that, but -- so if that's an obstacle to
25 their admission, then so be it, but we still think that they're
1 admissible for the purposes for which they were tendered. Some of them
2 were tendered simply because of what they depicted on the cover or to
3 establish that there were registration numbers in the notebooks and so on
4 and which we don't think need -- requires the translation of the entire
5 notebook in order for them to be admissible. So it's our intention not
6 to translate them in their entirety and -- but I understand that they
7 were marked for identification pending translation of the entire book.
8 So I think that's an issue that I will discuss with Mr. Gajic to see
9 whether or not he has any objection to that, but I think otherwise our
10 position would be -- or we would request that they be admitted without
11 the translation.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you haven't used these documents
13 with the witness or with any other witness, if I'm not mistaken.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Have we used this
15 documents with other witnesses? Was that the question?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. This is -- in that part of your list where
17 you say "used with the witness but admitted with other witnesses in prior
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: This is correct.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means it was not used with the last witness
21 who was testifying today.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And therefore we have no formal ground to admit
24 them into evidence.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: This is the reason why I raise it. The -- the
1 ground for their -- their admission through evidence -- I have to
2 actually determine what witness they came in through, but I thought I
3 would address it because it is on his -- on his sheet, and obviously we
4 don't have any other intercept operators coming to testify in this case.
5 So --
6 [Prosecutor and case manager confer]
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: So I thought it would be important to address
8 it. Perhaps we can reach some sort of an understanding with the Defence
9 with respect to whether or not -- whether or not all of these will
10 require translation. I don't believe that they do, because I think they
11 were either admitted or used under very limited purposes or for limited
12 purposes. In any event, we don't believe that we need them translated
13 fully, because some of them contain hundreds of intercepts, in order to
14 establish the purpose for which they were admitted. I raise it now
15 because it's on his sheet. I understand they were also admitted in the
16 prior case through PW-041 who was a witness in this case as well. There
17 were circumstances under which -- there were extenuating circumstances
18 with respect to that witness's testimony, which may also explain why
19 those documents weren't used with him. If we can go into private
20 session, I can explain that to you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We go into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 17908-17910 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Since we don't have another
8 witness for today, I assume, there is no. We should take the opportunity
9 to continue our hearing after the break, because there are some reasons
10 for -- to discuss procedural matters, how to proceed in this trial, but
11 we should have a slightly longer break to enable the Chamber to consider
12 the situation, and I think we should have our break now and resume at
13 11.30, and perhaps the Prosecution is in a position to update us in
14 relation to the last witness.
15 We adjourn and resume half past 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This part of today's hearing is only to deal with
19 procedural matters.
20 Mr. McCloskey, do we have any more information in relation to the
21 remaining witness? Mr. McCloskey.
5 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber now wants to deal with the matter of
11 scheduling for the remainder of the case.
12 First of all, the Chamber expects that the Prosecution closes its
13 case after the completion of the possible testimony of the final witness
14 who was scheduled for this week.
15 The Chamber is considering the views of the parties with respect
16 to the planning of the remainder of the case and will be issuing a
17 Scheduling Order setting out specific deadlines and dates shortly.
18 Before doing so, however, the Chamber would like to give an indication to
19 the parties of its current intentions.
20 The Chamber envisions to order the Defence to file the following
21 on the 1st of December or earlier: A list of witnesses and the nature of
22 these witnesses, their 65 ter summaries, and the points in the indictment
23 to which the witness will testify; the estimated length required for each
24 witness and the total time for the Defence case; the 65 ter exhibit list;
25 the list of expert witnesses and the accompanying curriculum vitae and
1 reports of those witnesses; any Rule 92 bis, ter, or quater motions.
2 The Chamber envisions further that there will and pre-Defence
3 conference the first day after the break, that is, on the 9th of January,
4 2012, with any opening statement, and the first witness to follow
5 immediately thereafter.
6 Finally, the Chamber envisions to hold a Status Conference on the
7 5th of December in order to review the progress between the parties.
8 I would now like to ask the parties if they have any position
9 with respect to this possible scheduling which the Chamber has in mind.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: That sounds fine with the Prosecution. I think
12 that's -- that's more than -- more than reasonable, and is no problem
13 from our perspective.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Gajic.
16 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm happy to hear that
17 the Chamber has handed down its decision more or less as we requested, so
18 I would like to thank the Chamber for its understanding.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. However, to clarify, this
20 was not the order, the final order, it was just information given by the
21 Chamber about the intentions of the Chamber, but a written decision will
22 follow in due course.
23 If there are no objections, no additional submissions, we can
24 leave it like it is.
25 Mr. Gajic, anything else?
1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would just like to
2 receive some information about the next witness, when that witness might
3 possibly appear in court, because we have to plan our activities.
4 There's a lot of work awaiting the Defence. This legal assistant or
5 advisor has to travel to Belgrade. So what is the time period in which
6 we will learn whether the witness will appear or not and be certain if
7 he's not coming that he's not coming? We would be very grateful to the
8 Prosecution if they could tell us something about this.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 17916 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, we adjourn until further notice
22 without an indication of a new day of hearing. That will be pronounced
23 in the normal way.
24 Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I do have some information that I
1 think will help the Court and the parties in planning. If you want to
2 take -- it shouldn't take me more than a few minutes. It's related to
3 when you'd asked us if there was a point where the Defence and the
4 Prosecution could get together and decide about other issues, and much of
5 this I -- we have now identified, and we do need to meet with Mr. Gajic
6 on, but I can tell you just -- because there's a few outstanding issues
7 that we owe you information on, and if we could go into private session.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private again.
9 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And related to intercepts, as the Court is aware,
11 we have many intercepts in this case that it's been the Prosecution's
12 strategy and position to call the intercept supervisors so that you would
13 understand the intercepts from the big picture and to call individual
14 intercept operators that had important intercepts, many of which were
15 acts and conduct under that rule.
16 As you are aware, that leaves many other intercepts where no
17 intercept operator has testified but that are relevant, important
18 intercepts to this case, and what we traditionally have done in all the
19 cases, as we intend to do here, is file a motion to introduce those other
20 intercepts under 89(C) since that we have -- it's -- we base this largely
21 on the practice of business records is -- is what I would compare it to,
22 and that since you have now seen the process, you know how it works, you
23 know that these materials were done in a certain way at a time related to
24 their date and that under 89(C) you would now have the ability to allow
25 these other intercepts into evidence to help give a -- give a complete
1 package of Srebrenica intercepts, and what we have -- will have for you
2 along with that motion is an index of the intercepts, basically mostly
3 starting in July, working our way through August 1st. Well, you may
4 remember the last few intercepts talk about people going across the
5 river. And so you have an index with a little summary of the intercepts,
6 the time, the people that are speaking on them. And so you have right in
7 front of you the historical chronology of the intercepts that would
8 reflect the intercepts that are in evidence and the ones that we're
9 offering into evidence.
10 We wait until the end here so that we know which intercepts we
11 don't have to offer into evidence because so many are in. So I just
12 wanted to alert you. We do plan on filing that very, very soon, that --
13 that intercept motion.
14 Also, you may recall that we've -- we have a trial video that is
15 in evidence that was a compilation of various videos and that we've seen
16 testimony from Erin Gallagher and I think Dusan Janc on additional video.
17 So we have a new trial video that has a few additions. If you recall,
18 General Tolimir pointed out some information on one of the Zepa videos
19 that we had left out that he thought was relevant, so we've included
20 that. It had some reference to some family members, and that is -- the
21 trial video I'm speaking of is P991. So we do have a new updated trial
22 video that includes those various pieces that have actually already into
23 evidence so that you will get, ideally, the DVDs with that on it and a
24 transcript in English. The audio is, of course, B/C/S, so we have not
25 transcribed it as yet.
1 So -- and along with that new trial video, updated trial video,
2 really, is a book, an updated stills book, and that is the book that goes
3 along with each chapter of the trial video and has a few stills from each
4 chapter to give you a feeling of who's in the video and who they are.
5 It's really a crucial guide to watching the video, because it tells
6 you -- it reminds you who people are, and, you know, it's as important as
7 the playbill or -- at a football game or the opera, really. So we have
8 an updated version of that that we'd like to provide for you, and the
9 original one was P1097.
10 And also there's a couple of items that were MFI'd, the statement
11 of Dr. Klonowski which I will need to speak to the Defence about. I
12 don't know if you remember that but that was something that may have been
13 in dispute, so we'll try to sort out where we are on that.
14 There was another MFI'd only a -- something that we recovered
15 from the Bratunac Brigade called: "The Situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina
16 Before the War," and I think you'd asked us about the authenticity of
17 that and so that's another document, it's a war history document. I need
18 to -- that's P1258. Does that mean it's in evidence? It's MFI'd only.
19 That I need to talk to Mr. Gajic about to see their opinion on.
20 Oh, and we also have an updated Muslim identification book. You
21 may recall Ms. Gallagher testifying about stills taken of Muslims in
22 Potocari and along the road, and we have an updated version of that based
23 on her testimony identifying people, and that is P1367. So that update
24 should reflect her testimony.
25 And there may be a couple of other things that the team is
1 digging up that I'll be able to sit down and discuss with Mr. Gajic and
2 get back to you and perhaps we'll be able to set some time if we need to
3 to have any argument if -- if we need to or -- or decisions.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you get the floor, one moment, please,
5 Mr. Gajic. I would like to add that recently I asked the parties if they
6 could -- could agree on certain pages of one book which was tendered
7 during an examination of one witness to avoid to having translate
8 everything of this book.
9 Mr. Gajic, it seems that you want it address that. Otherwise, I
10 would like to ask Mr. McCloskey first.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. Gajic picked out some 20-some-odd pages that
12 we were fine with and so that will go off to CLSS under the agreement
13 that you suggested.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to decide which pages should be received
15 into evidence.
16 Mr. Gajic.
17 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't receive interpretation at the moment.
19 Please repeat.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English?
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, now I can hear the English.
22 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was saying the
23 Defence has pinpointed some 25 pages, I think, from the book, and it will
24 be sent, if it hasn't been sent already, but I did discuss the matter
25 with Mr. McCloskey. I don't know whether I provided him with a copy, but
1 I will do so, if not, in the course of the day.
2 Now, as far as what Mr. McCloskey told us about the Prosecution
3 intentions for submitting new material and having new exhibits
4 admitted --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Bear with me for one moment. The Chamber asked
6 the parties to give us an update about the -- your agreement about the
7 pages to be translated and to be received into evidence. The Chamber
8 decides about the admission of evidence. So we have to be updated to be
9 able to decide.
10 Can you give us the page numbers now? That would be extremely
11 helpful so that we can resolve this already today. Could you read the
12 numbers into the transcript, including the number of the document,
13 Mr. Gajic.
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we do that by
15 means of e-mail, because I don't have the page numbers with me at
16 present, but as soon as this session is over, I will be able to send that
17 in writing, because the pages are clearly marked, but I don't have the
18 numbers with me at present.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I can indicate that the Chamber will receive
20 these pages into evidence, but without having the page numbers, it's
21 quite difficult to identify later, at a later stage, which are in
23 Yes, please do that after the hearing. At least during the final
24 session of the Prosecution case we can deal with that finally.
25 Please continue.
1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Secondly, Mr. President, I have to
2 admit that Mr. McCloskey took me by surprise with the amount of exhibits
3 that he would like to have tendered and the amount of work we're going to
4 have, because the Defence can't agree in a blanket terms to everything.
5 We'll have to look through all the material and consider it. So I'd like
6 to ask the Trial Chamber and Mr. McCloskey to have everything in writing.
7 If we could do that in writing, that the Prosecution table its request in
8 writing, and then we would respond in writing during the deadline,
9 requisite deadline.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the moment I only can say I state that one
11 witness was now formally withdrawn. I don't want to mention his name
12 because it was in private session.
13 The second witness, we are expecting a motion, and there might be
14 a response and then we will decide.
15 And all the other motions, we are open to receive any motion.
16 There is nothing -- and, of course, the Defence will have the opportunity
17 to respond, and at a certain stage we will decide on that. There's
18 nothing to do with that at the moment during the hearing of today.
19 Are there any other matters? I don't see anybody on his feet, so
20 that we have to adjourn for the day. We will give notice when we may
21 have the next hearing with the last witness of the Prosecution case, and
22 I would like to take the opportunity to thank everybody who is assisting
23 us and supporting us and was busy with us during the whole one and a half
24 years we are in court in this trial, even more than one and a half years.
25 Thank you, and with the best wishes for everybody, we adjourn.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.04 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened sine die