1 Thursday, 29 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [Witness testified via videolink]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.44 a.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
7 First of all, our apologies for the delayed start. We had some technical
8 problems with the lines set up for the videolink to Belgrade.
9 As you can see here, only two Judges present. Judge Nyambe
10 couldn't make it to take part due to another commitment, so the Chamber
11 decided to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
12 I know that we have to deal with some procedural matters, but we
13 should do that at the end of today's hearing and to start with the
15 Sir, the Chamber's grateful that you are able to be in that place
16 where we can have this videolink and that you are able to provide us with
17 your knowledge about certain instances. I would like to invite you to
18 indicate if you have any medical problems that you need a break, an
19 earlier break, or a rest, please let us know if that is the cases.
20 Now please rise and read aloud the affirmation on the card which
21 is shown to you by Mr. Registrar.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: RAMIZ DUMANJIC
25 [Witness testified via videolink]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
3 Sir, first the Prosecutor is putting questions to you during his
4 examination-in-chief, followed by Mr. Tolimir during his
6 Mr. Elderkin, you have the floor. Good morning.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour
8 Judge Mindua, and to everyone else in the courtroom here.
9 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness and the staff over in Sarajevo.
11 Witness, as you know, my name is Rupert Elderkin. I hope, first, that
12 you're able to hear me clearly, and if at any time you can't hear my
13 questions through interpretation or there's any other problem, then
14 please let us know.
15 I'm going to ask, please, for you to saw your name for the
17 A. Very well. My name is Ramiz Dumanjic. I was born in Rogatica in
18 1943 and I lived and worked there as an imam, as a religious cleric in a
19 village up until 1992 --
20 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, could I ask you to stop for one second? Excuse me.
21 A. And because of the fighting that had started there already in
22 April of 1992, I went to Zepa.
23 Q. Excuse me for a moment, Mr. Dumanjic, please.
24 A. And I stayed there until 1995.
25 Q. I wanted to interrupt you because we are going to take the story
1 of your time in Zepa step-by-step, and it's important for me to be able
2 to ask you questions for which you can answer each question in turn. I
3 know you're keen to get through the story, and we'll go as quickly as
4 possible, but if you could just answer the questions I ask in that
5 sequence it will help us here to follow your story and also to have a
6 good written record of your evidence today.
7 So I've heard your brief summary of your background and that you
8 were in Zepa during the wartime period, but I'd like to first ask you:
9 Do you remember being interviewed and giving a witness statement a couple
10 of months ago at your home in Sarajevo?
11 A. Yes, I do, of course.
12 Q. And did you listen as an interpreter read the statement to you by
13 telephone in your own language and you were able to check that the
14 information was correct?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. And did you sign a paper copy of the statement once you had made
17 any corrections?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And were you happy when you signed the statement that the
20 contents were true and accurate?
21 A. Yes. Accurate.
22 Q. Okay. So if there is anything today you have trouble
23 remembering, then we can show you that statement if it does help you to
24 remember any of the facts.
25 I think you've told us already that you were an imam and that you
1 grew up in Rogatica before the war. Can I just confirm that's correct,
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And I think you also said you were living in Rogatica at the
5 beginning of 1992.
6 A. Yes, in a village near Rogatica, to be precise.
7 Q. You've also told us that you went to Zepa in April of 1992. Can
8 you tell us, please, why you moved to Zepa at that time?
9 A. Well, you see, I -- my wife hailed from Zepa, and there was a
10 vacant post for an imam over there, and I went there for work.
11 Q. Did you stay in Zepa during the period from 1992 onwards?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Was there any reason why you didn't return to your home near
14 Rogatica, having moved to Zepa in April of 1992?
15 A. But of course there was. I was unable to return there because of
16 the fighting. I didn't dare to.
17 Q. Why didn't you dare to return, sir? What were you afraid of if
18 you tried to return to the Rogatica area?
19 A. When exactly do you mean, after the war or during the war?
20 Q. During the war, sir.
21 A. I was unable to go back there because of the armed activities
22 taking place there. There were no people to be an imam to. The mosque
23 had been destroyed.
24 Q. While you were in Zepa, where were you living?
25 A. I lived in a flat belonging to the municipality right next to the
1 mosque. It was allocated or set aside for an imam to use.
2 Q. And to be clear, just so we can locate that, is that the mosque
3 in Zepa town itself?
4 A. In the very centre of Zepa.
5 Q. Sir, were you in the military at any point during your time in
7 A. I was not. I was performing my religious duties and was
8 therefore free of any war assignments.
9 Q. Please could you describe for us what were your religious duties
10 during that period.
11 A. I performed religious services five times a day. I also
12 officiated at funerals, and there were quite a few of those, and I was
13 also engaged in religious teaching. That was all, basically.
14 Q. When you were in Zepa, did you know a person named Mehmed Hajric?
15 A. Yes. He was a colleague of mine. We worked together. When
16 Podzeplje fell, where he served, he came to Zepa, and from then on we
17 worked together.
18 Q. Do you remember around what date Podzeplje fell and Mr. Hajric
19 came to Zepa?
20 A. Right away in 1992.
21 Q. Do you know why he left Podzeplje? Why didn't he just stay
22 living in Podzeplje?
23 A. Because of combat activities. All the population from Podzeplje
24 came to Zepa, and he followed.
25 Q. When you say "all the population from Podzeplje came to Zepa,"
1 what ethnicity was that population? Are you talking about Serbs, Bosnian
2 Muslims, or some other population group?
3 A. There were Muslims in Podzeplje. However, they were driven out
4 by the Serbian Army and were forced to come over here.
5 Q. What were the duties that Mr. Hajric performed while he was an
6 imam in Zepa?
7 A. He was giving religious instruction to children, and we also
8 performed religious services alternately. We would take turns for the
9 Friday prayers.
10 Q. Do you remember if he performed any work other than his duties as
12 A. Are we talking about Hajric?
13 Q. Yes, please. I'm talking about Mr. Hajric.
14 A. Later on in 1993, Hajric also worked in the municipality. It was
15 the war municipality of Zepa.
16 Q. Do you know if Mr. Hajric is still alive?
17 A. I didn't understand.
18 Q. Do you know if Mr. Hajric is alive today?
19 A. No. He was killed in Rogatica.
20 Q. Do you know anything about the circumstances of his death?
21 A. The only thing I know is that UNPROFOR forces took him over, and
22 from there the Serbian Army took him to the Rogatica camp. He had even
23 been registered by the Red Cross.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the last part of his
25 answer, please.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you please repeat the last part of
2 your answer. It was not properly understood by the interpreters.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian Army seized him from
4 the UNPROFOR personnel and transferred him to the Rogatica camp. There
5 he was registered by the Red Cross, and subsequently they killed him
6 under the pretext that he had attempted to flee, to break away.
7 MR. ELDERKIN:
8 Q. Do you know when this killing took place?
9 A. I don't know exactly. I wasn't a participant in these events. I
10 heard it from his father. He told me the story.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. We have to interrupt you. I'm
12 sorry for that.
13 Mr. Gajic.
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Tolimir has
15 technical difficulties. He can't hear either the questions or the
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did that -- did that --
18 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir is receiving only the
19 English interpretation, whereas the Serbian is completely drowned out.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that the case from the beginning of the
21 testimony of the witness or did it just happen? Mr. Gajic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry? Beg your pardon?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, was that the case from the beginning
24 of the testimony, or did it happen just now?
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It seems that it has been present for
1 a while, the difficulty. He hasn't been able to hear the answers to the
2 questions for a while.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 MR. ELDERKIN: I'm being asked to say something to see if the
5 interpretation is now coming through.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first of all, I would like to invite
7 you -- Mr. Tolimir, are you hearing me? Do you receive B/C/S
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I am
10 receiving interpretation of your words. I'm also receiving
11 interpretation of what Mr. Elderkin is saying in part, as well as of that
12 which the witness is saying, but it's pretty muffled. It's like I'm
13 hearing a muffled version of what is said in the Serbian, whereas I can
14 hear the English perfectly.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we all know the procedure. Please
16 interrupt again if you have a technical problem or a problem of
17 understanding the B/C/S translation immediately when such a problem
18 occurs again.
19 Let just continue and see if now you are receiving better
20 interpretation and you can hear it better.
21 Mr. Elderkin, just continue and we will see how it works.
22 MR. ELDERKIN:
23 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, I'm starting again with the question, so please can
24 you indicate if you can hear us also.
25 A. I can hear you.
1 Q. Thank you. You were just telling us --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me just say that I
3 can't hear the witness. Thank you. I can't hear his answers.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to make sure that Mr. Tolimir understands
5 the witness and his answers. If there's a technical problem, we have to
6 check it first.
7 Mr. Elderkin, perhaps you'd put the next question -- or again the
8 same question and try to get a longer answer so we have a chance to check
9 the technical situation.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Certainly.
11 Q. Sir, you've told us that you learnt about Mr. Hajric's fate from
12 his father. Do you know or have you learnt why Mr. Hajric was killed?
13 A. The reason must have been the fact that he was an imam.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still can't hear the witness.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In this case, we should wait until it is set up
16 and the technical equipment is adjusted. The technician is working on
17 that, Mr. Tolimir.
18 I would like to invite the witness to repeat the last answer.
19 I'm very sorry that we have this technical problem. This occurs from
20 time to time. We hope it will be solved very soon. Please repeat your
21 last answer.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You were asking me why Hajric was
23 killed. Because he was an imam and a Muslim. There can be no other
25 MR. ELDERKIN:
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic. I'll continue questioning only once we
2 know that the --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please, we have to interrupt for a moment. If I
4 go on the B/C/S channel, I can hear the witness, although it is not very
5 clear, but I can understand that.
6 The technician is working on this problem. I hope it will be
7 resolved very soon. We have to wait a moment.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: So, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Elderkin, and Mr. Dumanjic,
10 I was told that the system is working better now, and therefore we should
11 check if everything is okay.
12 Mr. Elderkin, please continue.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, I would like to ask now if during your time in Zepa
15 you knew a person named Fehim Alispahic?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. Please could you tell us who he was.
18 A. He was an imam from Vlahovici who also came to Zepa and assisted
19 us in our work.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, did you -- did you understand the
21 last answer?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
23 understood it all. The only thing that was not clear was whether the
24 village was Vlahovici.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vlahovici. That's in the Visegrad
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may continue, Mr. Elderkin.
3 MR. ELDERKIN:
4 Q. Sir, do you know where the village of Vlahovici is located in
5 relation to Zepa?
6 A. Well, I know. I was there once as a young man. There were
7 Bajram festivities going on there, so I had an occasion to visit the
8 place, and I knew that there was a mosque there.
9 Q. Can you tell us where it is located? Is it in Visegrad
10 municipality, Rogatica municipality? What kind of distance is it from
11 Zepa, please?
12 A. It's in the municipality of Visegrad, close to Zepa. Right
13 across the Drina.
14 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Alispahic?
15 A. Well, the same. The Serbian Army drove out the villagers of that
16 village, and he joined others in coming to Zepa.
17 Q. Do you know if he managed to leave Zepa when the enclave fell in
19 A. Yes, he did manage to leave. He probably got on a bus. He was
20 an elderly man. Several years later, he died.
21 Q. Sir, did you know during your time in Zepa a person named Jusuf
23 A. I did. He was a madrasa student who also assisted us in our
24 work, particularly in giving religious instruction to children.
25 Q. Do you know what happened to him when the enclave fell in July of
2 A. He went across the woodland to Sarajevo. He graduated from a
3 madrasa there, and later on got an employment with the police force.
4 Q. Sir, were you yourself in Zepa in July 1995? Mr. Dumanjic, were
5 you in Zepa in July 1995?
6 A. Yes, I was, until it fell, and I went across by bus.
7 Q. What was the reason why you left Zepa? Why didn't you carry on
8 living in Zepa?
9 A. You mean afterwards?
10 Q. Why didn't you --
11 A. After the end of the war?
12 Q. At the time in July 1995 when you actually left, what do you
13 think would have happened if you'd stayed living in Zepa after the Serbs
14 took over the enclave?
15 A. Well, who would I have been an imam to since all the Muslims were
16 driven out of Zepa?
17 Q. Do you remember -- do you remember on what date you left Zepa?
18 A. The 27th of June -- or, rather, July 1995.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Dumanjic, I have to interrupt you. There's a
21 problem again.
22 Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can hear the
24 interpreters translating into English and into B/C/S but very quietly,
25 and I could hardly hear anything just before you said that we had to do
1 something about that. So it seems that there is something wrong with the
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I will check with the registry. One moment,
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The technician is working on that problem again.
7 Mr. Tolimir, did you do anything with the -- the technical equipment in
8 front of you? Perhaps -- did you do something? Turn up or turn down the
9 loudspeaker? In fact, you shouldn't.
10 Mr. Tolimir, did you receive interpretation of what I have said?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I can hear very good what is
12 being interpreted, but a while ago the sound was not good.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Elderkin, please continue.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, let's try and carry on. Sir, can we just ask you
17 to repeat the date when you said that you left Zepa. I can see it says
18 first the 27th of June on our screens here and then corrected to July.
19 Could you please repeat that for the record.
20 A. 27th of July, 1995.
21 Q. Sir, would it help to remind you of the date you gave in the
22 witness statement, because that was one day different. It was the 26th
23 of July that you told us in that witness statement. Do you have a very
24 clear memory of that date?
25 A. Well, it is possible. I'm not quite sure whether it was the 26th
1 or the 27th.
2 Q. How did you leave Zepa?
3 A. I set off on foot through the forest with all the other people.
4 However, I realised that I wouldn't be able to proceed. I had very bad
5 footwear. And then I saw buses coming to collect the people. At that
6 point I decided to join them and to proceed by bus and that's how I
7 crossed over.
8 Q. Could you describe to us the scene when you were getting onto the
9 bus that you boarded, the people who were around, what you actually did.
10 A. We boarded the buses. There was an observer from the United
11 Nations. Since there was no seat available on the bus, I went to the
12 back of the bus and sat down on my bag. When we arrived at Boksanica,
13 which is above Zepa, we were stopped there. Mr. Mladic boarded the bus
14 with a film crew and some other people in his escort, and he introduced
15 himself to us by saying, "Do you know who I am?" We said, "No." He
16 said, "My name is General Mladic. The town -- the time has come for us
17 to get acquainted. Are there any here able-bodied men?" We said there
18 weren't. Then he said, "You go over there and join your people, but I
19 will find them -- you there as well." I understood that to be a threat
20 addressed to us Muslims in the sense that we had no place at all in
22 Q. Sir, what was the atmosphere like on the bus among the passengers
23 when General Mladic was speaking to you?
24 A. Well, it was very difficult. I was terrified, because I thought
25 that they were going to take me off the bus. Other people were
1 frightened too. However, when Mladic said that, "We're not going to
2 bring any harm to you. Go ahead and join your people," we said, "Thank
3 you, General."
4 After that, the bus --
5 Q. Let me interrupt for a moment, please.
6 A. -- proceeded.
7 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, did anyone check your identity while you were on
8 the bus?
9 A. Well, no. And even if they had done that, I had thrown away my
10 identity card, because I feared that I would be taken off once they find
11 out my identity. So I decided if asked, I would give them a false name
12 and a false date of birth.
13 Q. Why were you afraid that you would be taken off if those checking
14 your identity found out who you were? What was the reason for that fear?
15 A. Because I was an imam. I know from experience what they did
16 elsewhere, that they particularly made a point of taking imams to camps
17 and killing them.
18 Q. While you were on the bus and leaving from Zepa town to go up to
19 Boksanica, what did you see as you drove along the road up to Boksanica?
20 A. I saw houses ablaze. Some were almost burned completely. I saw
21 many Serbian soldiers by the road who were rejoicing at us being taken
22 out of Zepa.
23 Q. Do you know who had set the houses ablaze?
24 A. The Serb Army.
25 Q. Now, if you could continue, please, for the journey after
1 Boksanica. Where did the bus take you after that?
2 A. We reached the so-called Saversko [phoen] then Rogatica. We saw
3 Serb civilians gathering hay, and these people really didn't react in any
4 way whatsoever. They were just going about their business. It was
5 peaceful when we arrived in Rogatica. Then we went on to Sokolac, and we
6 had no problems there until we arrived in Han Pijesak. The bus driver
7 stopped at the petrol station, claiming that he had a puncture, but that
8 was not correct. At that point, a young man boarded the bus, and there
9 was a man called Omer sitting in the front. The young man slapped him on
10 the face, shouting, "All these people should be killed."
11 I got terrified at that moment. However, the Serbian police
12 arrived, and they really acted in a correct and proper way. They chased
13 away this young man, and we were able to proceed, which we did later on.
14 Q. Where did you finally get off the bus?
15 A. There were no more problems. We headed off to Kladanj, but
16 before that there was a place called Luka. This is where we disembarked
17 from the buses and proceeded on foot. However, there were quite a few
18 roadblocks on the way. At one of the roadblocks, two or three Serbian
19 soldiers approached us. One of them asked me for money. He just said,
20 "Uncle, give me some money." And I said, "I have no money. I didn't
21 work for money." He saw that I had a wallet in my pocket. He took it
22 out and found $10 in it. This money had been given to me by a man for
23 whom I performed funeral services. He returned the wallet back to my
24 pocket and said, "Thank you."
25 Q. Apart from that indent, did you see anything else that you
1 remember after you got off the bus and started walking?
2 A. Yes. On the way, I was able to see that. While we were walking,
3 we saw many dead bodies covered with blankets.
4 Q. Sir, did your family also leave Zepa at the end of July of 1995?
5 A. They remained behind in Zepa. They spent the night there and
6 then joined me on the following day.
7 Q. Sir, thank you very much. I don't have any further questions for
8 you now, but other people will.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.
12 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. Witness, on page 15 of
13 today's transcript, line 10 to 12 --
14 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] There's no translation into B/C/S.
15 THE INTERPRETER: A technical problem. Would Judge Mindua kindly
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I'm going to start again.
18 Witness, Witness Dumanjic, on page 15 of today's transcript,
19 lines 10 to 12, you stated that when you were in Boksanica on the bus,
20 you were very afraid because you were an imam and because experience had
21 told you that everywhere else imams were captured and transferred to
22 camps to be killed.
23 The question I wish to put to you is this: When you were on
24 board that bus at that very moment, had you learned that imams had been
25 killed, or did you learn that after the war?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I had experience. I heard on
2 the radio that the imam of Semizovac had been killed in 1992 alongside
3 his whole family. Then there was another case in Visegrad. In the
4 village of Okrug, an imam was also killed. So these are the things that
5 I heard on the radio. It was on the news.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you,
7 Witness. Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Dumanjic, I have also a question for you.
9 You described the situation at the Boksanica check-point when the buses
10 were stopped, and you told us that General Mladic, together with a film
11 team, entered the bus, the bus you were in. Can you please again tell us
12 what General Mladic told the people on the bus? What exactly did he say?
13 A. He identified himself by saying, "I am General Mladic. The time
14 has come for us to meet." He inquired whether there were any able-bodied
15 men. We said there weren't, to which he retorted, "You just proceed and
16 join your people, but rest assured that we are going to find you there as
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Dumanjic, now
19 Mr. Tolimir has the opportunity to put questions to you during his
21 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Greetings to all present in the court and in the courtroom in Sarajevo
24 where the witness and the Prosecutor are sitting, as well as a
25 representative of the registry. I wish peace upon everyone who is
1 following this broadcast, and I would prefer these proceedings to be
2 completed in accordance with providence and not in accordance with my
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dumanjic --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One correction. Where the witness is situated
7 there is no Prosecutor. There is a member of the Registry to assist him,
8 just for the record.
9 Now put your question, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I stood
11 corrected when I said the representative of the Registry.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, we all are experiencing the same
13 noise. It disappeared.
14 Now, please try to put your question to the witness, Mr. Tolimir.
15 You have the floor again.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, in order to make thing easier for you, we're going
19 to go chronologically according to the answers that you gave, and I only
20 have a few questions for you.
21 Can you tell me, please, when the Judge asked you about what
22 General Mladic said when he boarded the bus and you said that he wanted
23 to know whether there were any able-bodied men among you, the people on
24 the bus said that there weren't, and then he said, "Go and join your
25 people, we are going to find you."
1 My question is: Were any able bodies men on the bus; that is to
2 say, the people who were subject to military obligation under the law?
3 A. No. No, there were not such people. There were only elderly
4 people, women, and children on the bus.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us did you fall into the category
6 of able-bodied men, because you had an assignment before the war in
7 Han Pijesak? Can you tell us again the year in which you were born, and
8 please wait until everything that I asked you is recorded in the
9 transcript, because we both speak the same language.
10 A. I was born in 1943, and I don't know for how long one is subject
11 to military obligation, and I don't know whether I was in that category
12 or not.
13 Q. Thank you. Since we speak the same language, I asked you to wait
14 a little until I have finished my question, and I shall do the same for
15 you. This will allow the court reporter to record everything in the
16 transcript, the question and the answer.
17 A. All right. I understand.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber how old were you in 1995,
19 since you said you were born in 1943? Thank you.
20 A. 1943. Well, you can do the arithmetic yourself. I can't be
21 bothered. I am an ill man.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you please once again make a pause after my
23 question so that everything can be properly recorded, because otherwise
24 we have overlapping between questions and answers.
25 A. I apologise. This is the first time I'm doing this, and I'm not
1 very experienced. Thank you.
2 Q. Thank you. I sometimes make the same mistakes as well. All
3 right. Now the interpretation is finished.
4 Can you tell us, please, were people of 52 years of age, which
5 was your age when you left Zepa, were they conscripts and were they
6 subject to respond to military according to the laws of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and also of Republika Srpska? Do you know how these
8 issues were regulated?
9 A. I don't know what the provisions of the law were.
10 Q. Thank you. Excuse me for asking you this. I think you would
11 have known this, because you were a conscript.
12 A. Yes, but before the war. But a few years before the war I was
13 relieved of that obligation.
14 Q. Please, on page 4 of today's transcript, line 14, Mr. Elderkin,
15 the Prosecutor, asked you why you didn't go back to Rogatica from Zepa.
16 Before that, you said that you went to Zepa to take the vacancy of the
17 imam that was open there and that there was another reason which was that
18 your wife was originally from Zepa.
19 A. Yes, that is correct. I went there because there was a vacancy.
20 Q. Thank you. My question is the following: If you took the job of
21 a religious person in Zepa, were you able at the same time to go back and
22 perform other duties or become involved in other profession elsewhere?
23 A. I don't understand the question. Are you referring to the period
24 after the war when you speak about my returning to Zep?
25 Q. My question was: Were you able to perform the duties of an imam
1 in Rogatica at a time while you were appointed imam in Zepa?
2 A. No, I couldn't do that. Once I made a commitment, that's what I
3 remained working.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now the sound has disappeared. Please continue.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, tell us, please, was any person on board the bus
9 checked by the Army of Republika Srpska, and I'm talking about their
10 identity. I am also talking about your journey from Zepa to other parts
11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 A. As far as I remember, that was not the case, although I expected
13 it to happen.
14 Q. Thank you. As you say, you tried to cross the mountain from Zepa
15 on foot. Can you tell us how many people you saw there getting ready to
16 cross the Zepa mountain on foot to the territory under the control of the
17 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Thank you.
18 A. I did try to get out of the area across the mountain, but I
19 didn't manage to. The slope was steep, and I decided to return right
20 away and board a bus, so I didn't see any of the people there.
21 Q. Thank you. As an imam, were you aware of any individuals taking
22 off the -- being taken off the bus that was headed for Zepa and kept
23 behind in that area under the territory of the Army of Republika Srpska
24 contrary to international conventions?
25 A. None of the people who were there on the bus with me were taken
1 off. However, the bus that my wife and children boarded, who followed me
2 a day later from Zepa, certain individuals were taken off the bus.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me about that last bus that your wife
4 boarded? How many individuals were taken off, and were they able-bodied
5 men? Were they conscripts? Did they fall within that category of
6 individuals or not? Thank you.
7 A. They were elderly people. They were not military-age men. I
8 know some of them. One from Srebrenica, some from Vlahovici who were
9 also taken off and held at the Rogatica camp for some five or six months.
10 They joined us at a later date. I don't know how many in all there were
12 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at P1434, please. It's a list of
13 individuals who were taken on by the Rogatica reception centre that you
14 call a camp. And please have a look at the list and see if there are any
15 elderly people among them, or if these individuals fell into the category
16 of able-bodied men. It's tab 6, and it's one of the documents you have
17 before you. Have a look at the document and tell us whether any of these
18 individuals were elderly. Thank you.
19 A. There's one individual I know, Mehmed Prcic. I know him too.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the name.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know him too.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you please repeat the name --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Saban, whom I also know.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please repeat the names of those you are
25 familiar with.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the witness.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please again say the name, because the
3 interpreters didn't understand you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bego. Zecir Batres. Nurbeg
5 Gladovic. Omer Cavcic. Edhem Brguilja. Omer Delic. Nirzim [phoen]
6 Otalagic. Ahmed Brguilja. Those are the ones I know.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you. I apologise for bothering you with looking through
9 the names. Now, tell us, please, the individuals that you referred to as
10 the ones that you know, were they exchanged? In other words, did you see
11 them later, did you hear of them, were they able to reach the free
12 territory of the Federation of Bosnia Herzegovina? And I'm referring to
13 the individuals whose names you just read out.
14 A. I don't know if they were exchanged or just simply released. I
15 don't have any knowledge of that.
16 Q. Thank you. Please, do you know if the individuals who boarded
17 the last bus were taken off because they did not comply with the
18 agreement that was signed based on which all the able-bodied men were
19 supposed to be disarmed by UNPROFOR in Zepa; in other words, give their
20 weapons over to them before they cross over to the territory of the
21 federation? Were you aware of this at all?
22 A. I was not aware of it.
23 Q. Can we now call up P736. Please familiarise yourself with the
24 contents. It was written on the 27th of July, 1995, and signed by, on
25 behalf of the Serbian side Mr. Rajko Kusic, and on behalf of the
1 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mehmed Mahic, Hamdija Torlak, and
2 Amir Imamovic, and General Mladic also signed it as a witness to that
3 agreement, and it was also supposed to be signed by a representative of
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should stop for a moment because the
6 transcript is not working. It stopped when you asked for a certain
7 document number. We need the assistance of a technician.
8 Mr. Tolimir, please repeat your full question, because it was not
9 recorded, what was said, until you called up the document. Please once
10 again. Now the transcript is working.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. After having called document P736, I said: Mr. Dumanjic, do you
14 know why the last bus which your wife boarded was pulled over and why
15 certain men were taken off? Did it have anything to do with the fact
16 that the Muslims did not honour the agreement that they had signed about
17 disarming their own men and handing over the weapons to the UNPROFOR
18 personnel in centre of Zepa? Thank you. That was my question,
19 Mr. Dumanjic.
20 Now, in the meantime, Mr. Dumanjic was able to read the document
21 and is now able to answer my question. Thank you.
22 A. I did read the document, and I believe that none of the parties
23 complied with the agreement, neither your side, nor the Muslim side.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic. Can you specifically indicate the part
25 which the Serbian side supposedly did in the adhere to?
1 A. Well, here's an example for you. The brothers Gladovic are
2 elderly men who were taken off the bus. They were no conscripts at all.
3 They were elderly individuals. And besides, if Mehmed Hajric complied
4 with this agreement, why was he killed? He was not supposed to have been
5 killed. He was supposed to have been exchanged.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic. My question for you was this: Were all
7 men taken off the bus, and I emphasise "men," after it came to be known
8 that the men present in the Zepa mountains did not wish to surrender
9 themselves and be disarmed before being transferred to the territory of
10 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina? You gave us the answer you wanted
11 to give us, and that is it.
12 A. I'm not sure I'm clear on the question at all.
13 Q. Well, then I'll repeat it. Had the able-bodied men at the -- in
14 the Zepa mountains surrendered themselves and had they turned their
15 weapons over to UNPROFOR and had they complied with the provisions of the
16 agreement whereby UNPROFOR was supposed to transfer them from Zepa to the
17 territory under the control of the BH Army, would any of the individuals
18 who were on that bus have been taken prisoner or killed? Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. I interrupt you, sorry.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir, is it your opinion
21 that --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may answer in a moment, but Mr. Elderkin gets
23 the floor first.
24 Mr. Elderkin.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would object to that last
1 question. It's asking a hypothetical. It's not asking about matters
2 that are actually within the witness's actual possible knowledge. It's
3 rephrased about what actually happened or what he believed, that's one
4 thing, but to ask him a long compound question about what might have
5 happened in another set of events isn't -- isn't appropriate.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, not only the last question was quite
7 complicated because you put together many things, please put very simple
8 questions to the witness and one by one. Please rephrase your last
9 question, and only one question at a time.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank
11 you to Mr. Elderkin for his assistance.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can the witness please say the following: There were individuals
14 who boarded the buses, but would they not have been allowed to reach the
15 point of the free territory of the BH Federation had those who were in
16 the Zepa mountains agreed to surrender and be disarmed?
17 A. Well, do you, Mr. Tolimir, truly believe that they would have
18 been safely transferred to the territory under the BH control? In my
19 view, this would not have come about. They would have been killed.
20 Otherwise, why would there have been cases of individuals being
21 transferred to Serbia and then held in various camps over there? You
22 know how these things turned out, don't you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, same objection, and with a very clear
25 reason why the question is objectionable. The answer is also now
1 hypothetical. The record is not advancing General Tolimir's case or
2 informing us about what was actually happening within the witness's
3 knowledge. Could we please stick to the facts rather than what might
4 have happened in various other circumstances.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should put questions to those
6 areas that the witness can really answer and provide you with his
7 personal knowledge. Try to do that. Please, continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
9 witness did know that there were able-bodied men in the Zepa mountains.
10 He even tried to join them. He said so in his statement. That's why I
11 put my question to you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, put the next simple questions
13 related to his knowledge, no discussion.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it was only natural. We simply
15 had to flee the area.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Let me
17 put the next question to the witness.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you know that the government in Sarajevo negotiated the
20 transfer of the able-bodied individuals from the Zepa mountains to Serbia
21 and that they did not arrive in Serbia as an enemy but that they were, in
22 fact, received by the Serbian government? Were you aware of this? Thank
24 A. As far as I know, from what I heard from those who were sent to
25 Serbia, they went there of their own will, and they were met there by the
1 Serbian Army and put in a camp. There was no arrangement about that.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dumanjic. Do you know that before this Trial
3 Chamber -- Chamber, the then UNPROFOR commander, General Smith, stated
4 that there had been an agreement reached between Carl Bildt and
5 Slobodan Milosevic whereby all the able-bodied men present in the Zepa
6 mountains were to be transferred to Serbia, which would guarantee safety
7 and security for them? Do you know that?
8 A. That -- that I don't know. What I do know that during his trial,
9 Slobodan Milosevic bragged about having saved these Muslims and did not
10 allow them to return to the area but, rather, sent them across the world
11 to be resettled there.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, one observation. For sure this
13 Mr. Witness was not present during the negotiations between Carl Bildt
14 and Slobodan Milosevic. You should really focus on what this witness can
15 provide you with.
16 Mr. Elderkin.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: In addition, I'd ask for a cite for any reference
18 to such prior testimony in the case. I'm not entirely familiar with the
19 summary that General Tolimir has given to us there.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You may leave it like this and continue with
21 those areas of the personal knowledge of Mr. Dumanjic, Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I asked
23 him if he knew anything that. He himself said that this was being
24 discussed at the Milosevic trial. I may refrain from asking any
25 questions --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You -- you -- I don't know what the purpose of a
2 testimony of this witness about the Milosevic trial is. He may have
3 heard something about that trial. This is at least hearsay. You should
4 take into account the personal situation of this witness. You know about
5 it, and you should focus on his experience on the ground and what he
6 observed at that time in 1995.
7 This is now the last question before the break.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I wanted
9 to show a film to the witness showing the bus on which he was and all the
10 men are there. However, my intention is not to be offensive either to
11 the witness, to the Prosecutor, or to the Bench, and I apologise for
12 that, and as a result, I have no further questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, if you're intention is to show a
14 video, you may do that. My intervention was related to the negotiations
15 between Carl Bildt and Slobodan Milosevic. This can't be a reason for
16 the conclusion of your examination. If you want to show this video to
17 the witness, you should do that. If it's a lengthy one, perhaps we
18 should do that after the break. Otherwise, if it's a short part of it,
19 we can do it now if you intend to conclude your cross-examination quite
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
22 grateful to Mr. Dumanjic for his answers, and I apologise to you,
23 perhaps, for putting some questions that I shouldn't have. I'm not going
24 to show the video, and with this I conclude the examination of this
25 witness, and I would like to thank everyone present here in the courtroom
1 and everyone following these proceedings. I wish him good health and God
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir. For the
4 record, it is very clear that you have still the right to continue your
5 cross-examination. It's your free will to conclude it now. I take it
6 that on your own decision you conclude it now, your cross-examination.
7 Mr. Elderkin, do you have questions during your re-examination?
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Mr. President, just on one point, and it can be
9 very brief, and it's in -- actually, it's a follow-up to the question
10 that Judge Mindua asked about whether the witness, at the time he was
11 leaving Zepa, knew about the fates of the other imams because he'd said
12 that he heard that other imams had been imprisoned or killed.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:
14 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, my question is in relation to what you said you had
15 heard about other imams being imprisoned or killed during the war. You
16 mentioned the imam of Semizovac and Okrug. Did you have any information
17 or do you have any information as to how those men were captured or
18 killed and by whom they may have been captured or killed?
19 A. I didn't understand your question -- or, rather, I didn't hear it
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Dumanjic, do you understand me now?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, please put your question again,
24 perhaps in a very simple way.
25 MR. ELDERKIN:
1 Q. Sir, you spoke earlier about imams from two places being captured
2 or killed. Those places were Semizovac and Okrug. Do you remember
3 mentioning those places and people?
4 A. Yes, I do. I mentioned it during your examination. However,
5 it's not mentioned in my statement, because nobody asked me about it.
6 Q. Do you remember the names of the imams of those places?
7 A. The name of the one from Semizovac, I heard it on the radio. His
8 last name was Ramic. I don't know his first name. And the one from
9 Okrug was called Ramic, but I also don't know his first name.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not quite sure that we
11 heard the names properly.
12 MR. ELDERKIN:
13 Q. Sir, could I ask you one more time to repeat those names just so
14 that the interpreters can hear them as best possible, please?
15 A. I don't know their first names. I only know their surnames. The
16 one from Semizovac was Ramic, and the one from the village of Okrug near
17 Visegrad was Karaman and that's all you know.
18 Q. Do you know who captured or killed either of those men? Do you
19 know anything about their circumstances or their fate?
20 A. The one from Semizovac was simply picked up, he and his family,
21 and were then killed. And as for the one from Okrug, I don't know how he
22 lost his life.
23 Q. The imam from Semizovac, you say he and his family were picked up
24 and killed. Do you know who were the people who picked that family and
25 that imam up and killed them? Not personally, but do you know whether
1 they were military men? Were they civilians, police? Do you have any
2 information at all about them?
3 A. As far as I know, it was done by the Serb Army.
4 Q. Mr. Dumanjic, thank you very much. I don't have any further
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, that finishes my re-examination.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Dumanjic, the Chamber is very grateful that
9 you were able to come to that location --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and testify and to provide us with your
12 knowledge about the events in 1995. Thank you very much again. It was a
13 great help for us, and the Chamber would like to wish you all the best
14 for your health and for your future. Thank you very much again. This
15 concludes now your examination. I would like to say good-bye and all the
16 best for you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I wish all the best
18 to you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, and this concludes the videolink.
20 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have some minutes left. We should try
22 to manage the procedural matters before a possible break, to save some
24 I have -- I would like to raise two things. The first matter is
25 the following: On the 7th September 2011, the Chamber granted the
1 Prosecution's motion. It was 2011. The Prosecution's motion for the
2 admission of the written evidence of Behara Krdzic pursuant to
3 Rule 92 bis. In accordance with that decision, the Chamber hereby orders
4 the Prosecution to upload the written evidence contained in annex A of
5 that motion to e-court under a new 65 ter number.
6 My second issue is the following: We discussed at length the
7 admission of portions of the document D74. Mr. Gajic, for the Defence,
8 indicated which pages should be translated and admitted into evidence.
9 This -- now I can state these pages listed in the e-mail from Mr. Gajic
10 will be marked for identification pending translations of these
11 documents -- of these pages.
12 These are the two things I wanted to raise. Are there any other
14 Mr. Gajic.
15 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the meantime,
16 translations arrived for the documents that were marked for
17 identification, and with your leave, I would like to read the numbers of
18 these documents. There's a total of ten of them.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please do that.
20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It's D187, D268, D271, D304, D306,
21 D310, D311, D312, D316, and D317.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. They will now be admitted
23 into evidence with these exhibit numbers.
24 Are there any other matters? Mr. Elderkin.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honour, I have a similar list from the
1 Prosecution with a couple of comments. The following exhibits of
2 previously MFI'd, the translations are now uploaded: P898, P2404, P2451,
4 In relation to P2404, Your Honours, this is an OTP interview with
5 a protected witness. The B/C/S that's uploaded is complete, but the
6 English transcript at the moment is missing the last 29 pages. It
7 happens to have been a two-part document, and the Prosecution would
8 request permission to add those pages to match the full -- full B/C/S
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave is granted to add these pages.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: And in addition, there are two exhibits, P2662 and
12 P2663. These are two of the intercept handwritten notebooks, and we'd
13 ask that they be marked as confidential. I understand that they are
14 currently not marked as such, but they're the handwritten documents which
15 I think have some identifying features of protected witnesses in them.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I take it they are already in evidence. Is
17 that correct?
18 MR. ELDERKIN: P2662 is in evidence, and P2663 is also in
19 evidence, Your Honours, yes.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see a problem, and I don't see an
21 objection. These two documents, P2662 and P2663, will be put under seal.
22 The other documents previously marked for identification pending
23 translation will now be received into evidence.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see any reason for further discussion of
1 procedural matters. As the parties are aware, we are looking forward to
2 another witness arriving and testifying here in the courtroom. We don't
3 know exactly when, but it may happen -- perhaps at the beginning of next
4 week. You should be aware we will communicate the proper date as soon as
5 possible, perhaps today or at least tomorrow. Please be prepared for
6 this examination.
7 We have to adjourn sine die, but we will announce the next day of
8 hearings as soon as possible.
9 We adjourn for the day.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
11 at 11.24 a.m. sine die