Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18100

 1                           Monday, 16 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom, and

 6     special greetings to you, Mr. Dieckmann, who is again present during the

 7     testimony of Mr. Pecanac.

 8             Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have a new estimation of the length of

 9     your examination-in-chief?

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good afternoon to

11     you and Your Honours and everyone.

12             Mr. President, my estimate as concerned -- as it stood when we

13     broke last was four hours.  I had an hour and a half left.  I had used

14     two and a half hours.  I think I will be probably a half an hour to

15     45 minutes longer than that, so I would say about two hours and

16     15 minutes to two and a half hours.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Due to the new circumstances and the

18     new documents, this is understandable.  If there is nothing to discuss,

19     the witness should be brought in, please.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Pecanac.  Welcome back to the

22     courtroom.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18101

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to remind you that the affirmation you

 2     made to tell the truth at the beginning of your testimony last week still

 3     applies.

 4             Mr. Vanderpuye is continuing his examination-in-chief.

 5             Mr. Vanderpuye, you have the floor.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good afternoon to

 7     you again, and Your Honours.

 8                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR PECANAC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

10                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

11        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Mr. Pecanac.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the documents

14     that were in your binder when you were last here, actually on Thursday,

15     when they were given to the Registry.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could have that binder, please, in front of

17     the witness, that would be helpful.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you referring to the original binder or to

19     the copies given to the witness last week?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I am referring to the original binder, if I may,

21     Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It may be handed over to the witness.

23        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, I just wanted to direct your attention to

24     two notebooks that you have inside that binder.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Are there any copies

Page 18102

 1     available for the interpreters?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, this question was addressed to

 3     you.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I gathered.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             There are some English translations, I believe, of the entries to

 6     which I will be referring a bit later on that will be available for the

 7     Chamber and I believe also for the booth.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But that was not the question put to you from the

 9     interpreters.  They asked for copies, hard copies, of those documents, I

10     think in Serbian, you intend to put to the witness.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  There are not -- no, there are no copies of the

12     documents that will be provided to the interpreters.  I only intend to

13     use a few pages from entries in one of the books.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are these entries -- are these parts of the

15     notebooks in e-court and can be shown on the screen.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They are not in e-court yet, Mr. President,

17     because they could not be uploaded in that way as the original document

18     remained in the custody of the Registry.  It has not be ERN'd and treated

19     as other evidence would otherwise be handled in the case, and so it

20     hasn't been uploaded.  There is the ability, however, to display the

21     English, I think, on our screens, but it won't be done through e-court.

22     Oh, I understand that it can be done in e-court.  The 65 ter number for

23     it is 7578, and I believe that's been circulated to the Court.  And

24     Ms. Stewart informs me it's been uploaded as an attachment in

25     anticipation of the B/C/S original that will be hopefully uploaded once

Page 18103

 1     we've addressed the matter with Mr. Pecanac.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I think we

 5     will need the usher up here in any event because hopefully we will be

 6     able to display some of this to the Trial Chamber using the ELMO.

 7        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, I am going to direct you to the spiral-bound

 8     notebook that you have folded in half in front of you.

 9        A.   This one?

10        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  And first could you just describe what's on

11     the cover of it before you -- I see you've opened it already.  Just

12     describe what's on the cover of it for the record.

13        A.   It says "ICN Galenika" and the number of medications.  Therefore

14     it is a notebook which I acquired I don't know in which way, because

15     there were lots of documents, but probably this is an advertising

16     brochure issued by the pharmaceutical company based in Belgrade which is

17     called ICN Galenika.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have a draft translation of one page on the

19     screen.  Could the original B/C/S version be displayed.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE: [Microphone not activated] If you could just hand

21     that to the usher so that it may be placed on the ELMO so the

22     Trial Chamber and the parties can see the cover.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told that the original was not uploaded in

24     e-court yet.  We have a draft translation, as it is called, 5th July

25     1995, and the original we hope to see on the ELMO.

Page 18104

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   First, what is shown on the ELMO at this time, is that, in fact,

 3     the notebook that you were just referring to, Mr. Pecanac?  Just for the

 4     record.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This was a question put to you, Mr. Pecanac.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  That's the notebook that

 7     I just described or, rather, its covering page.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 9        Q.   And it's your notebook?

10        A.   Yeah, it is mine.

11        Q.   Did you make the entries that are contained within the notebook?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Did you make the entries in the notebook contemporaneously with

14     the events those entries describe; that is, on or about that those

15     entries -- the events that are described in the entries occurred?

16        A.   Well, look, judging by the page that you showed me which says

17     "draft translation," this refers to meetings with my associates, their

18     pseudonyms are there.  Sometimes the notes are made in the course of the

19     meetings or sometimes after the meetings, so basically it corresponds to

20     what was said in those meetings.

21        Q.   If you could turn to the page in your notebook indicating

22     July 1995 in Sarajevo.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Dieckmann.

24             MR. DIECKMANN:  I am very sorry, Your Honours, for interrupting.

25     As far as I remember, the examination-in-chief ended the last time in a

Page 18105

 1     private session, and perhaps since two and a half days as a break between

 2     last week and today, I just would like to clarify to the witness if we

 3     are in private or in public session, and perhaps to refresh his memory

 4     regarding Rule 90(e).  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, what is your position?  Shall we

 6     move into private session?

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I do recall how we ended last --

 8     the last session, and my understanding was that we would proceed in

 9     open session until such time as the witness felt that it was

10     inappropriate for him to answer any question on the basis that it might

11     incriminate him.  My understanding was that if that were to occur, the

12     witness would, of course, make that known to me, to the Chamber, and if

13     necessary consult with Mr. Dieckmann.

14             To the extent that it's already been established as a matter of

15     public record that he was a member of the VRS, it does not seem to me, at

16     this stage anyway, and it's also a matter of public record that he has

17     brought with him the document that he's now being asked about, it doesn't

18     seem to me, at this stage anyway, that an indication that he took notes

19     regarding meetings where he was present is incriminatory, at least not on

20     the basis that we've established so far.

21             If he chooses to speak with Mr. Dieckmann, that's fine by me, but

22     I don't think, necessarily, that this is the way to go about it.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Pecanac, your counsel asks for reminding you,

24     again, of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, Rule 90(e), that you as a

25     witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

Page 18106

 1     incriminate the witness, yourself, but there are measures possible to be

 2     taken by the Trial Chamber to compel you to answer certain questions.

 3     You will recall that you heard that at the beginning of your testimony.

 4     I just repeated that because of the request of your counsel.

 5             The second issue is, you know best what you have noted down in

 6     your diary and where you have been in the relevant time.  You should

 7     indicate, and perhaps with -- after consultation of your counsel, when it

 8     is an appropriate moment to turn into private session.  At the moment we

 9     are in open session.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the time being I

11     don't mind being in open session, as far as I am concerned.  However, if

12     we are going to talk about the contents of these reports and the

13     pseudonyms mentioned therein, I would kindly ask you that we go into

14     private session to avoid any embarrassment for those people or causing

15     harm to them.  So as far as this notebook that is my creation is

16     concerned, I am fine with being in open session; however, if we move to

17     discussing the participants, then I would appreciate if we went into

18     private session.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify one thing, Mr. Pecanac, private

20     session would be a protective measure for you, for you personally as a

21     witness, and not for other people.  These are in principle open and

22     public trials so that you should only consider your personal situation,

23     taking into account that there are investigations underway in the region,

24     wherever, in which states ever, against you.  This is the only question.

25     You shouldn't be concerned about any effect these discussions could have

Page 18107

 1     on other people.

 2             Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   I think I had asked you to turn to the first page following the

 5     cover, Mr. Pecanac.  If you could do that, that would be helpful.  And

 6     can you confirm that the first page following the cover indicates a date

 7     of 5 July 1995, beneath which it says "Sarajevo"?

 8        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

 9        Q.   All right.  And it also indicates a number of names.  We will get

10     to the substance of some of this a little bit later, but what I want to

11     ask you is:  In relation to the notes or the entries that you made in

12     your book, that was made based on your information, is that right,

13     because you were either present or told of the events that are recorded?

14        A.   I don't understand your question.  I wrote reports that I

15     received from the people listed here under their pseudonyms.  I don't

16     understand what you mean when you say being present there, if you are

17     referring to the first page alone.

18        Q.   No, I'm referring more generally to the contents of the book.

19        A.   Oh, if you're referring to it in general, then yes.  I noted down

20     everything I did, where I went to, with whom I met.  Of course, not each

21     and every detail, but what's noted there, it's been noted by me.

22        Q.   Okay.  And before we move on, if I can just ask:  Do you have any

23     other such notebooks concerning the events or matters in 1995 besides

24     this one that we have here before you and the Chamber?

25        A.   No, unfortunately I don't.  Although the intensity of events in

Page 18108

 1     1995 was so high was that I wrote my reports and handed them over

 2     directly to the administration.  I didn't keep any diary.  These two

 3     notebooks just happened to remain and are now in my possession.

 4        Q.   And when I say "in your possession," what I mean is either here

 5     or at home or some other location under your control or in your

 6     knowledge.

 7        A.   I explained to you that these two notebooks are the only

 8     notebooks that I have.

 9        Q.   All right.  As far as the notebook that is before the Chamber is

10     concerned, the one that's on the ELMO now, have you removed any pages

11     from that notebook?

12        A.   If you mean removing with the intention of concealing something,

13     no, I didn't, but it might have happened that I just tore out a page and

14     threw it away, but not with the intention of hiding anything.  That's as

15     much as I know.

16        Q.   All right.  So you acknowledge that there have been pages that

17     have been removed from the book; is that fair to say?

18        A.   I am telling you again:  It is possible.  I am not saying that I

19     did remove some pages in order to conceal something, but it was possible

20     that I tore out a page from the notebook in order to correct something.

21     Because when you say "remove," in my understanding it implies my

22     intention of trial trying to conceal something, which is not the case.

23        Q.   Okay.  And I know it's been at least a couple of days since

24     you've had that book in your own possession, and you were provided,

25     though, with a copy of it, do you acknowledge that between 8 and 14 July

Page 18109

 1     there are no entries in that book, and between the 16th of July and the

 2     5th of August there are no entries in the book?

 3        A.   I really cannot recall that with any certainty.  I will have to

 4     look at specific dates, so please don't hold and take my word for it.

 5     I'm sorry, the copy that I have of the notebook and all the other

 6     material, this was done in a disorderly manner somehow, if I may say so;

 7     therefore, due to that I was not able to prepare myself properly.

 8        Q.   That's no problem.  We have the notebook and we'll take a look at

 9     it in a little bit.  What I would like to do, though, is to go back to a

10     document that we had, I think it was on Thursday, when you were last

11     testifying in this case.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And it's P2069.  If we could have that on screen

13     at a moment.

14        Q.   Do you recall that I showed you this particular document dated

15     12 July 1995?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Okay.  And this is the document where I referred you to

18     item number 3, indicating the separation of military-age men between the

19     ages of 17 and 60, and the separation of such men who numbered, I

20     believe, 70 at the time that this report was apparently prepared.  You

21     indicated that the number of individuals from 30- to 35.000 people was

22     not a possibility, to your recollection.  And you also circled a set of

23     initials that you indicated you believed to be those of Ljubisa Beara,

24     right?

25        A.   I encircled only one set of initials.  I think that that was

Page 18110

 1     Mr. Beara's initials.  Although it's not clearly legible, I cannot be

 2     100 per cent sure.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe we can have P2800 in e-court, please.

 4        Q.   Here you can see on the far right the initials that you circled;

 5     is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  That's correct.

 7        Q.   Now, this was a document that was provided to the Office of the

 8     Prosecutor from the Serbian authorities as a result of the search that

 9     was undertaken on your premises back in 2009, and you indicated before

10     that you were not in accord with the information that is provided in it.

11     Were you present in and around the area of Potocari or Bratunac on

12     12 July [Realtime transcript read in error "brought on 22nd of July"] ?

13     This would be St. Peter's Day, the day after Serb forces entered

14     Srebrenica town.

15        A.   Yes, good for you, it's St. Peter's Day.  Yes, I was in the area,

16     but not at the time when this report was compiled.  That's for sure.

17     Over the past few days I tried to refresh my memory about some questions

18     that you asked me, and I can tell you that was I was there at around

19     noon.  I know when this meeting at Fontana ended, and after that I never

20     went again to the area.

21             So, Mr. Prosecutor, if you allow me, let me explain a few things

22     pertaining to this document.

23        Q.   Just one second, let me first clarify something on the record.

24     Is it -- or correct something on the record, page 11, line 7.

25        A.   I don't see the transcript in front of me, therefore it's beyond

Page 18111

 1     my control.

 2        Q.   My reference, or my question, rather, concerned the area of

 3     Potocari or Bratunac on 12 July, which is improperly recorded in the

 4     record, transcripts line 7 and 8.  In any event, I think the witness

 5     understood the question and answered it appropriately?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And at the end of your question it should say:

 7             "The day after the Serb forces entered Srebrenica town."

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, thank you very much, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, you said you wanted to explain something about the

10     document.  Is that relative to when it was you were present in or around

11     Potocari or Bratunac on 12 July?

12        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  I would try to explain to you that this

13     document is a very strange one because practically it hasn't been

14     registered at the Main Staff for a month and one day.  That's number one.

15     Number two, it appears to me that the document was registered in the

16     intelligence administration and not in the sector, that's definitely not

17     the case with General Tolimir.  And thirdly, these kind of original

18     documents are very seldom read by the head of the sector because there

19     was a summary of several reports and he had to read a kind of aggregate

20     report due to the fact that he simply didn't have time to receive all of

21     the reports that arrived from the ground.

22             Another interesting thing is you see that it was registered at

23     1730 hours in an electronic form, which means encrypted, and that it was

24     then forwarded -- if you can scroll down so that I can see the bottom of

25     the document.  I don't see the stamp which contains the code.  I still

Page 18112

 1     don't see it.  I'd like to see at which time it was sent.  If I can see

 2     the square seal at the bottom of the page, please.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will come up soon.  There you can see it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Now I can see it was registered at 1939 hours.  It is sort of

 6     unclear to me, and I find it hard to believe, because it seems that the

 7     document was just lying there for about two hours without it being sent

 8     in an encrypted form, but the basic point is it is not known where this

 9     document had been for more than a month.  Nobody knows who received it at

10     the General Staff and when.  We can only see that this was received as

11     late as the 13th of August, 1995.  And I can tell you that at that time

12     Mr. Tolimir, General Mladic, and myself had been in Krajina for quite

13     some time, and on that basis I can confirm that Mr. Tolimir never had

14     this document in his hands, otherwise he would put his initials.

15             We have as many as six signatures, but there is no signature of

16     Mr. Tolimir or General Mladic or myself.  This is what I wanted to

17     explain with regard to this document.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:

19        Q.   All right.  And as far as the signatures that we see here, these

20     are signatures or initials of members of the Main Staff, aren't they?

21     R for Radivoje Miletic.  Do you recognise -- do you recognise that

22     initial, Mr. Pecanac?

23        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  When you asked me for the first time, I said

24     out of all the initials, this one was perhaps the naval captain's

25     signature, Ljubisa Beara, but as for the other ones, I quite simply can't

Page 18113

 1     recognise these initials, I really can't.  But I do know the initials of

 2     General Tolimir and General Mladic, and my own, of course.  As for these,

 3     no, I really don't recognise a single one.

 4        Q.   Okay.  But you see that it does have a regular stamp on it, which

 5     you've identified yourself, the square stamp with the name Vukajlovic

 6     written on it; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And there it indicates a time of 1934 hours, 12 July 1995; right?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  But I think it says "1939," or perhaps I can't see it

10     well, but it doesn't matter.  Five minutes more or less.

11        Q.   It has a registration number, does it not?  631.

12        A.   It's possible.  I really don't know how it was encoded.  I think

13     I explained this last time.  I don't know how they processed this, sent

14     these things, received such things, how they forwarded such things.  When

15     the encoding department sent a telegram, someone has to sign for its

16     receipt to show that it has been received.  The body in the Main Staff,

17     the relevant organ in the Main Staff, has to sign for it.  But it says

18     the 13th of August, 1995, here is the date of receipt, so that's 32 days

19     after it was drafted, if that is the time when it was drafted.  And I

20     also claim once again that General Tolimir's and General Mladic's

21     signatures are not on the document and nor is mine.

22        Q.   Given that this document has the type-stamped name of

23     Vujadin Popovic and it is directed to the security administration of the

24     Main Staff, to whom would it normally go?

25        A.   It would normally go to the chief of the intelligence

Page 18114

 1     administration, the naval captain, Mr. Beara [as interpreted].

 2        Q.   Well, the naval captain, Mr. Beara was the chief of the security

 3     administration, and maybe it's a translation issue, but you are in the

 4     record as having said that it would go to Mr. Beara, chief of the

 5     intelligence administration.  Can you clarify that for us so we are clear

 6     on the record.

 7        A.   I can see that the record is mistaken.  He was the head of the

 8     security administration, not of the intelligence administration as stated

 9     in the record.

10        Q.   And you've indicated that it was received a month after it was

11     apparently written or sent, and you're basing that on what exactly in the

12     document?

13        A.   Well, on the basis of what it says.  It says the 13th of August,

14     1995.  I can see that figure there, that number, 12 through 45.  Well,

15     12 was certainly the sector for intelligence and security matters, and

16     through 45, well, I think that was the intelligence administration.

17     46 was the security administration.  I think that was the case.  I am not

18     a hundred per cent certain, though.  It is on that basis that I'm

19     claiming that this document was only registered at that point in time

20     because it's impossible for a document to arrive and not to be registered

21     or to be -- if it's registered only after a month, what happened to it in

22     the meantime, well, that's a mystery.

23        Q.   Does it say "received" next to 13, 8, 1995?

24        A.   I didn't understand you.  Where it says "received," it says the

25     12th of July, 1995.  But Vukajlovic received it, the encoder.  It was

Page 18115

 1     probably the encoder.  It doesn't mean that -- well, it seems that it was

 2     in the encoding department for over a month.  I can't interpret this in

 3     any other way because when the document arrives in the intelligence

 4     administration, it's recorded there -- or, rather, in the security

 5     administration, it is then recorded there.

 6        Q.   I understand what you are saying, but what I would like to know

 7     is:  Where you see the date 13 August 1995, is there any express

 8     indication that that's the date that the document arrived or that's the

 9     date the document was recorded?  Does it say that anywhere near that

10     date?

11        A.   Well, look, when you have these kinds of documents, you don't

12     have a special place where it is registered when you receive the

13     document.  You just register it somewhere and you provide it with the

14     necessary or appropriate layout.  This is the date when it was received

15     in this administration.  In any event, there is no doubt about that for

16     me because -- it was received on the 13th of August, 1995.  And as for

17     the signature, I really don't know whose it is.  So in my opinion, that's

18     it.  You can see that it has a number.  If we had this registry, we'd see

19     who registered it, when, under what number, because everything is done in

20     sequential order.  It's impossible to skip things.

21        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, I understand that you have experience with this type

22     of material and that you can talk about the regular practice, but what

23     I'm asking you very specifically is:  On the document itself, is there

24     any indication, in words, that it was received on the date of

25     13 August 1995 at the Main Staff, or is that a conclusion you're drawing

Page 18116

 1     based on your experience even though it doesn't actually say that on the

 2     document?

 3        A.   I don't know what else I could say.  If I received the document

 4     today, for example, in the registry there is an empty line, and you note

 5     down the document there.  The previous one was recorded under such

 6     number, then the following number follows.  237 was the previous one,

 7     probably, and then you have 238.  I can't then mark 230 and go backwards.

 8     That's impossible.  That's what I'm saying.  So the document was

 9     registered on the 13th of August, 1995, by this individual, and that is

10     when the document was received in that administration.  No other

11     explanation is possible.  I really don't see how else to explain this

12     because you don't have any other traces showing that it was received

13     earlier or later on.  This is the only indication you have.  And when it

14     says "received" here, when it says "Vukajlovic," that was in the

15     encryption department, it doesn't mean that the administration received

16     it.  Do you understand?  The encryption department received it on the

17     12th of July, but as for the administration itself, it wasn't until the

18     13th of August, 1995, that it was registered, which means that that is

19     when the document arrived in the administration.  Which is mysterious.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, may I jump in at this point in

21     time.  I have a question to the witness --

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Of course, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- which probably, hopefully, will help to

24     understand procedure.

25             I would like to draw your attention, Mr. Pecanac, again to the

Page 18117

 1     stamp with the name Vukajlovic.  As you said, his task was to -- he was

 2     an encryption person.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was concrete his duty?  What was he doing

 5     with this paper he received and he stamped, what is he doing then next?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know the exact

 7     system in force in encryption code, but the encryptors work on shifts, as

 8     far as I know.  And when they are on their shift, they can't leave the

 9     room there.  The encryption room cannot be left for any reason unless

10     there is a combat alert, something of that kind.  So they are responsible

11     for encryption and so on and so forth.  I don't believe that this

12     individual, Vukajlovic, was responsible for taking the document to the

13     administration or sector or whatever.  It was probably someone else who

14     was above him who occasionally turned up, took the documents, registered

15     them in their room, because this is their stamp showing that they

16     received it then.  So this other individual probably had the task of

17     taking it to the administration.  Why he didn't do so up until the

18     13th of August, 1995, well, I really don't know.

19             I don't understand why this happened because, as a rule, the

20     encryption service, if it's a matter of urgency and this is an urgent

21     document, usually the document has to be forwarded the same day or the

22     very same evening, even at midnight or 2.00 in the morning.  It would

23     have to be forwarded to the sector that it was intended for.  Why this

24     wasn't done until the 13th of August, I really don't know.  All I can say

25     is this is what I can see.

Page 18118

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am not asking you about the 13th August.  I

 2     would like to know what exactly Mr. Vukajlovic as the encryptor would do.

 3     Would he type it into an encrypting machine?  Would he send the encrypted

 4     version out to anybody?  What is happening to it after the encryption of

 5     this document?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, he received it

 7     in code.  He was there to decode it.  He used a machine to decode a

 8     document that was in code.  This is the original.  You can see because

 9     there are a lot of mistakes, the lines aren't correct, and so on and so

10     forth.  So Vukajlovic should have directly handed this over to the person

11     who was responsible for taking it to the administration, the security

12     administration.  I don't know whether he did this or not.  His task

13     wasn't to leave the encryption room and take it there directly, no.  He

14     was probably on shift at the time and he couldn't leave the room.  Up

15     until what point in time, I really don't know.  I don't know what sort of

16     shifts they had at the time.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Pecanac, did Mr. Vukajlovic work on the

18     sender side of this communication or on the receiver side?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this particular case, the

20     encoders do both tasks.  If I'd take a telegram to him, he encrypts it

21     and then sends it on.  So then he is sending it.  If he received a

22     document - and that's the case here - then he was the receiver, and his

23     task was to decode the document in question.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please see the signature block of this

25     document.  I mean, the signature or the name of Mr. Popovic.

Page 18119

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We should be able to see on the -- I believe on

 2     the right side of the document, of what we have in e-court, anyway.  If

 3     you blow it up a little bit the -- well, the one on the right is already

 4     blown up, so if we just slide over we'll be able to see very clearly what

 5     the name is.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's fine.  Can you tell me, Mr. Pecanac, was

 7     this document printed out by Mr. Vukajlovic and then handed over to other

 8     people, or what was his task to do with it?  Was it -- was this the

 9     document which Mr. Vukajlovic received from the machine, or was it handed

10     over to him?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is the document that

12     he received from the machine.  The machine decoded it for him, in other

13     words.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, Judge Mindua has a question.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I do apologise,

19     Mr. Prosecutor.

20             Witness, was it common practice -- I was wondering whether it was

21     customary for an important document -- issued by a military authority --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We receive the English translation twice, from

23     different interpreters.

24             Please carry on.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I was wondering whether

Page 18120

 1     it was customary for an important document drafted by a military

 2     authority be encoded and be kept by the duty officer of this operation,

 3     and I was wondering whether it was customary for this document not to be

 4     sent?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know.

 6     But there were certain shortcomings.  As far as I can remember, certain

 7     reports didn't arrive or they arrived late.  There were problems with the

 8     encoding, or sometime in May there was the NATO bombing of certain

 9     centres, communications centres of the Army of Republika Srpska, so there

10     were quite a few problems when it came to reestablishing communications

11     systems.  So it's quite possible -- not only possible, it's quite certain

12     that it -- there were problems when it came to reporting, compiling

13     reports and sending telegrams.  The communications system had been

14     disrupted and there were many problems.  General Milovanovic had quite a

15     few difficulties when trying to reestablish the communications system

16     again.  And the name of the General is General Milovanovic.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

18     continues] ... to you this document was drafted after the bombing that

19     you are talking about?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this document was sent after

21     the bombing.  I am not sure -- in July 1995, I am not sure to what extent

22     the communications had been set up again, and that's all the more the

23     case in September when we were bombed by NATO again.  The system was in a

24     bad situation, so it's possible that there were communications problems

25     and with the encryption.

Page 18121

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Pecanac, are you saying that the encryptor,

 3     like Mr. Vukajlovic, is not allowed to leave the room where he is

 4     working, that the document remains there without delivering to anybody

 5     else?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that's not what I

 7     said.  The encryptor on the shift, I think they worked in teams of twos,

 8     and they had shifts, so they'd be in a sort of a dumb room.  That's what

 9     we called it.  It was not possible to eavesdrop.  There they would spend

10     a few -- a number of hours working there.  They did not have the right to

11     leave the room on such occasions during their shift.  You should ask

12     experts, encryption experts about this.  But during that period of time

13     they'd work with one encryption system and then they destroyed that

14     system.  And then someone else would take over and use a different

15     encryption system during his or her shift.  As far as I know, this person

16     wasn't allowed to leave the premises, but if there was something urgent

17     he would phone from the room, someone else would turn up, take charge of

18     the telegram, and take it to the administration or sector that it was

19     intended for.  So those are the rules according to which the system

20     operated, as far as I know.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, I just want to make sure I've got this straight.

25     You're saying - and you'll correct me if I'm wrong - that this document,

Page 18122

 1     12 July 1995 --

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we can go to the top of the document, please,

 3     just so he can see what I'm referring to.

 4        Q.   Dated 12 July, 1995, timed at 1730 hours, which says "very

 5     urgent" on it.  You see that, where it says "vrloh hino."  Very urgent

 6     document with only one stamp that actually says the word "received,"

 7     "primljeno," indicating a time of 1734, signed by Vukajlovic as received.

 8     You're saying that this document between the time it was received at the

 9     Main Staff, presumably at the 67th Communications Regiment which handles

10     these types of communications, a very urgent message was received at 1734

11     and never relayed for a month and a half.  Is that what you're saying?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In fact, 32 days he said.  Not one month and a

13     half.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I wasn't received at

16     1734 but 1934.  That's a mistake.  And I am not claiming that it was

17     outside a sector for 32 days, outside the Main Staff or part of the

18     Main Staff, but I am saying that this document was registered on the

19     13th of August, 1995.  And this was probably done in the intelligence

20     administration.  To the extent that I can remember these numbers, that

21     was most probably the case.  It was on the 13th of August.  I can't say

22     where this document was for 32 days.

23             As for Mr. Vukajlovic, well, as far as I can remember, he was

24     never a member of the sector for intelligence and security in the

25     General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in the course of the war.

Page 18123

 1     Perhaps that was the case but I can't remember that.  As for where this

 2     document was, I don't know.  I am not saying that it wasn't received on

 3     the 12th of July.  I am telling you when the document was registered.

 4     This can be seen quite clearly.  This is how the documents were

 5     registered.  We didn't have a special stamp of this shape.  It was all

 6     done by hand.  Everything was registered by hand.  We didn't have a stamp

 7     of this kind.  Do you understand?  A stamp with various fields within it.

 8     We really registered these documents by hand.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   Thank you.  I think that's a lot clearer.  Let me show you P2518.

11     This is another document that we received as a result of the search that

12     was executed on your premises from the Serbian authorities.  Now, you can

13     see again a stamp in this document, it is dated 11 July 1995, and you can

14     see that it has a type-signed name of V. Popovic.  It says "Potpukovnik,"

15     Lieutenant Colonel V. Popovic.  And we have again a similar stamp

16     indicating received.  That would be in accordance with your previous

17     testimony about what those stamps indicate, right?

18        A.   Absolutely.

19        Q.   And we go to the top right corner of this document, we can see a

20     set of initials.  Do you recognise the initials that are at the top of

21     this document?

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And if we could blow them up, please, so that

23     the witness could see them more clearly.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not sure about this.  I am not

25     sure whose initials they are.  The one above -- well, it's a bit

Page 18124

 1     difficult, the other one is in the Latin script.  It's difficult for me

 2     to recognise these initials.

 3             In 1995 who would use the Latin script in the Main Staff?  Well,

 4     I really can't be sure.  It looks like an S.  And this letter down below,

 5     is it a T or a D?  I really don't know.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just zoom out a little bit so that

 7     we can see the -- yes, and then zoom in on the area to whom this

 8     particular communication is directed.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Can you see to whom this particular communication was directed?

10        A.   Yes, to the Main Staff of the VRS and to General Tolimir,

11     personally.

12        Q.   Do you recognise any of the initials that you saw a moment ago to

13     the right as those of General Tolimir?

14        A.   I really couldn't say that those are General Tolimir's initials.

15     What's in the Latin script, was it an S and a T?  I really don't know.  I

16     can't recognise it.  And the other one is particularly difficult for me

17     to figure out.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please move it again to the right-hand upper

19     corner.  No, not only the initials but also the other handwriting there.

20     Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says Srebrenica/95, or perhaps

22     it isn't a slash, and this is in inverted commas.  I can again see that

23     the person used the Latin script, but I really can't recognise the

24     handwriting or anything else.  I really can't.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:

Page 18125

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Now, if we can zoom out just for a moment.

 3        Q.   Can you tell by looking at this document when it was received?

 4        A.   As far as I can see, it was received on the 11th of July, 1995.

 5     I don't know the time, whether it's 1110 or something else.  In the

 6     translation it says "17," but I am not sure that that's correct.

 7        Q.   Well, we can blow that up so that you can see it, just for a

 8     moment.

 9        A.   Yes, I agree, it's 1710 hours.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we zoom out for a moment.

11        Q.   Can you tell by looking at this document when it was registered?

12        A.   Received where?  What are you referring to?

13        Q.   The word I was "registered."  I am not sure how I can rephrase

14     it, but not received but when it was registered.

15        A.   I don't see that it's registered anywhere, not in the Main Staff

16     nor in any of the sectors or administrations.

17        Q.   All right.  Let me take you to another document.  I'd like to

18     show you P2529.  First, do you recognise this document?

19        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, with all these designations I cannot

20     recognise it.  I do remember, though, that I sent this kind of report,

21     and it definitely resembles something that I would send, but you can see

22     the difference between how it was registered by encryption officers.  You

23     can see the difference in the font type, et cetera.  For example, this

24     designation, F-14, is something that I really don't recognise.

25        Q.   All right.  Let me show you, if you're unable to read this --

Page 18126

 1     first, let me just zoom in on the sender's name.  You can see that just

 2     under the text.  Do you recognise your name on this document?

 3        A.   Not my name.  My last name.  But I wasn't a captain at the time.

 4     The rank is wrong.  I was captain first class at the time.

 5        Q.   Captain first class.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.  I was captain first class in July 1995.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you some of the text.  We can see it in the

10     translation.  It may not be so clear in the B/C/S, but if I go to page 3,

11     you might see a handwritten text which might be better for you.  But tell

12     me if you can read this type of text first.  Which would you prefer to

13     look at?

14        A.   This is not my handwriting.  I don't remember whose handwriting

15     this is.  I have never seen it.  No, this is not my handwriting.

16        Q.   Let me ask you about the information --

17        A.   But I can read it.

18        Q.   Okay.

19        A.   [In English] Okay.  [Interpretation] Very well.

20        Q.   Do you recall relaying the information that is contained within

21     this document?

22        A.   Yes, and I think I told you that it took place at around 12.00 or

23     half past 12.00.  So I received this information at around noon, and I

24     received it from members or a member from the state security department.

25     He was a tall man but I don't remember his name.  He gave me this

Page 18127

 1     information.  Somebody wrote it down on the basis of my dictation, and I

 2     sent it after that to the Drina Corps so that he can pass it on to other

 3     units of the Drina Corps.  I think that at the time he was the head of

 4     the intelligence department of the Drina Corps or maybe just an officer

 5     in that department.  I don't remember.  I am trying to recollect.  Yes.

 6     This is the information that I compiled, and I am telling you that,

 7     yes -- yeah, no, I received some other information at a later date that

 8     is not related to this one.

 9        Q.   All right.  But you have no quarrel with this document, in

10     particular, the information was, in fact, compiled by you, and sent as is

11     indicated here; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes, yes.  I absolutely have no problem with that.  And

13     I believe that I promptly informed General Mladic about this.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could go into private session for a

16     moment, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18128

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

Page 18129

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Pecanac, the interpreters have some problem

 2     to follow the speed of your speaking.  Please slow down a little bit so

 3     that we have everything on the record and that everything will be

 4     interpreted correctly.  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Where was General Mladic when you relayed the information,

 8     Mr. Pecanac?

 9        A.   I cannot say for sure, but I think that we were in a vehicle

10     travelling from Bratunac to the Main Staff, so it was at around noon or

11     1.00, and I remember that it was very hot.

12        Q.   Do you know where Colonel Beara was on that day?

13        A.   No, no.  I don't know and I never saw him.

14        Q.   Do you know where Colonel Salapura was on that day?

15        A.   I think that Colonel Salapura came and spent a brief period of

16     time with General Mladic in Bratunac.  It's definitely the 12th, not the

17     13th, not any day before that.  I think that the two of them conferred

18     privately for about five minutes, and I think that was the reason why

19     General Mladic ordered us to go immediately back to the Main Staff.

20     That's all I know, that Colonel Salapura came, stayed for about

21     five minutes, and then left.

22        Q.   Do you know a Colonel Radislav Jankovic?

23        A.   I was not acquainted with the colonel of that name.  I only met

24     him during the negotiations with the DutchBat.  I hadn't known him before

25     that because he joined the Main Staff a short period before that.  I was

Page 18130

 1     deployed in the area of Sarajevo because there was a Muslim offensive

 2     launched against our forces and that was my main task.  So due to that, I

 3     didn't go to the Main Staff quite often.  I know also that he served as

 4     an interpreter for General Mladic.  I think that although there was an

 5     official interpreter there, General Mladic preferred to use him.

 6        Q.   And what did he do in the Main Staff when he joined?  What was

 7     his position or his function?

 8        A.   Are you referring to Mr. Jankovic?

 9        Q.   Yes, I am.

10        A.   If I remember correctly, I think that he was at the intelligence

11     administration.  However, what his particular duties were, I really don't

12     know and I cannot tell you because I was with that man on that day for a

13     very short period of time and I never saw him again.

14        Q.   Where were you with him on that day?

15        A.   I told you, in Bratunac, during the negotiations with

16     Colonel Karremans from the DutchBat.

17        Q.   And you said, I believe - and you'll correct me if I'm wrong -

18     that you left the area around 1.00 or so; is that right?  And headed back

19     to the Main Staff?

20        A.   Who are you referring to?

21        Q.   You and General Mladic.

22        A.   That's correct.  Correct.

23        Q.   How long did you remain at the Main Staff?

24        A.   Well, that's really -- it's really hard for me to say whether I

25     stayed there, I don't know, maybe the whole day.  It is possible that the

Page 18131

 1     next day we went up there to the village close to the Main Staff where

 2     the forward command post of the Drina Corps was.  I can't remember the

 3     name of the village, but I know that General Krstic was there.  However,

 4     I can't tell you any exact times.  I think that I spent the night there.

 5        Q.   That evening, that is, on the 12th of July, did you attend a

 6     meeting with General Mladic which included the brigade commanders of the

 7     Drina Corps?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, that was not on the 12th of July.  It was on the

 9     11th of July at the HQ of the Bratunac Brigade command.  I wasn't there

10     because I was not very fond of attending meetings with particular

11     persons.  My task was to provide security, and for that purpose, I needed

12     to be close to him in order to have full information that can have impact

13     on security issues.  So I think it was not recorded properly.  The

14     meeting was not on the 12th of July but it was on the 11th of July at the

15     Bratunac Brigade command, 11th of July.

16        Q.   All right.  Well, this Trial Chamber has heard evidence that the

17     meeting was on the 12th of July from a person who was there,

18     notwithstanding your recollection.  But in any case, it is correct that

19     whenever that meeting was, you weren't there; is that fair to say?

20        A.   Yes, but I claim that the meeting was held on the evening of the

21     11th because we were not in the area any longer in the morning of the

22     12th of July.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, we have that in the record.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just for the Trial Court's information, the

25     evidence I am referring to is P1197.  It is the transcript evidence of

Page 18132

 1     Colonel Mirko Trivic.  The transcript pages are pages 11836 through

 2     11840, from testimony dates of May 18th, and 21 through 23, 2007.

 3        Q.   Do you know anything about General Tolimir's whereabouts on the

 4     12th of July?  For example, we have evidence in this case that he went up

 5     to Bijeljina.  Were you aware of that?

 6        A.   No, you have to believe me I didn't see General Tolimir.  Two or

 7     three days before entering into Srebrenica, and then after that I didn't

 8     see him until Zepa, and I think that was on the 18th, 19th, or the 20th,

 9     but I can say for sure that I haven't seen or spoken to General Tolimir

10     for the better part of ten days.  I know that Lieutenant Colonel

11     Pandurevic was in conflict at the time with General Mladic because he

12     opposed General Mladic's idea of withdrawing all the units from

13     Srebrenica and moving them to Zepa because they had a fight with the

14     28th Division on their hands.  And I think that he said something to that

15     effect, to which Mr. Mladic said, "Well, let's leave it to MUP.  They can

16     deal with that.  And they can fight them easily."  I know that this is

17     what they discussed, and I know that at the time Lieutenant Colonel

18     Pandurevic opposed this decision of General Mladic, and I remember that

19     it was on the evening of the 11th.  Although it was summertime, it was

20     dusk, but it was completely dark when we finished the meeting, and I

21     think it was not a very pleasant proposition for us to try and to get

22     back because we never knew where the Muslim forces were in the darkness.

23        Q.   Very well, Mr. Pecanac.  I think we have got our break coming up.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Maybe Mr. President will correct me if I am off.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Usually, yes, but today we can sit ten minutes

Page 18133

 1     longer until five minutes before 4.00, and then have an extended break to

 2     enable Judge Nyambe to take part in another meeting --

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Very well.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- I think for approximately one hour.  But you

 5     may continue until five minutes before 4.00.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   On the 12th of July -- first of all, you're familiar obviously --

 8     let me rephrase that.  You are obviously familiar with the

 9     10th Sabotage Detachment; is that fair to say?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, there seems to be a problem?

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the translation

12     into Serbian it was said the "20th" instead of the "12th," and I think

13     it's very important for the witness to hear the exact date.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I also heard the 20th.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Please repeat your question, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Gajic.  I appreciate

19     that.

20        Q.   On the 12th of July, 12 July.  What I meant to ask you first was:

21     You are familiar with the 10th Sabotage Detachment unit as a unit

22     associated or attached to the Main Staff of the VRS, yes?

23        A.   Yes, correct.  It was attached or, rather, on a direct control of

24     the intelligence administration of the Main Staff.

25        Q.   Okay.  And that unit had a headquarters in Bijeljina and also in

Page 18134

 1     Dragosevac back in 1995.  Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Concerning the structure and command formation of that unit, I

 3     simply cannot tell you anything because I was not in charge of that unit,

 4     nor was I interested in what they were doing.  It was in the realm of

 5     Colonel Salapura.  I didn't have either the desire or the will to

 6     interfere with their work.  But in 1994, or thereabouts, I think that

 7     General Tolimir brought to Colonel Salapura's attention the fact that he

 8     should take care who is recruited into that unit, which meant that he

 9     wanted only good quality people to be there, although I know nothing

10     further than that because that unit was directly commanded and control by

11     Colonel Salapura.  And in addition to that, they acted independently to

12     which I was not privy.

13        Q.   Do you know who Dragomir Keserovic is?  I believe he's a general

14     now or retired general.

15        A.   Yes, I know Dragomir Keserovic.  Yes.  He was, I think, a brigade

16     commander or a commander of the police brigade at the 1st Corps during

17     the war.  Yes, I know the man.

18        Q.   Well, the Dragomir Keserovic I am talking about was the commander

19     of the military police department within the Main Staff of the VRS.  Or

20     chief, I should say.  Does that sound about right?

21        A.   It's not correct, exactly.  There is no police department of the

22     Main Staff.  During one period of time, I don't know exactly when, he was

23     chief of the sector for military police within the security

24     administration of the Main Staff.  So I think that is the exact title

25     that he had, not the one that you quoted.  So in the security department,

Page 18135

 1     among other sectors, there was a sector in charge of military police, and

 2     he was at the head of that sector for a certain period of time, only I

 3     don't know when.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And are you aware that Mr. Keserovic said in an interview

 5     in October 2000 that, for a while, you were in the field with the

 6     10th Sabotage Detachment?  Are you aware of that, one; and two, is that

 7     true?

 8        A.   Well, how can I know what he said?  I never read it anywhere.

 9     And secondly, I was never in the field with the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

10     I don't know where he got this information from.  It is possible that he

11     was referring to the period when the 10th Sabotage Detachment arrived in

12     Drvar in August of 1995, after I had arrived in Drvar, and that was the

13     only time when General Milovanovic ordered me and the

14     10th Sabotage Detachment to go out and to destroy an enemy group in some

15     remote place, but when we arrived there it turns out that that was one of

16     our units and we nearly killed our own people.  And I really held this

17     against General Milovanovic, this kind of decision.

18             I didn't know anything about the situation.  He just told me to

19     take the 10th Sabotage Detachment.  They didn't have a commander, and he

20     sent us on this joint task because I was familiar, to a certain extent,

21     with this territory because my father hailed from that area.

22        Q.   Mr. Pecanac --

23        A.   So thank God we didn't carry out this task and killed our own

24     men.

25        Q.   -- the Trial Chamber has received evidence in this case that you

Page 18136

 1     were at the compound of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in Dragosevac on the

 2     evening of 12 July.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, that's P215, transcript

 4     testimony pages number 10963, lines 17 through 21.

 5        Q.   I take it you deny that?

 6        A.   Perhaps I was there on the 11th of July in the evening.

 7        Q.   Why would you have been there on the --

 8        A.   The evening of the 11th of July.

 9        Q.   Why would you have been there on the evening of the 11th of July?

10        A.   Because there was a tragedy.  A soldier was killed.  Someone from

11     that sabotage detachment stole an armoured carrier that belonged to the

12     UN, it turned over, and a soldier was then killed.  I think it was on the

13     11th of July in the evening.  I am almost certain, but it wasn't on the

14     12th.

15        Q.   The Trial Chamber has received evidence, as I said, that this

16     actually occurred on the 12th, and so maybe it might be that your memory

17     is not as accurate as you think it is.  Is it possible that you might be

18     mistaken, that it was not, in fact, on the 11th, and that it was on the

19     12th?

20        A.   Well, it's easy to establish, I think, if you know when this

21     tragedy, in fact, took place.  I think it was on the 11th.

22        Q.   Again, the reason why you would have been there, whether it was

23     on the 11th or the 12th, what would that have been?

24        A.   As I have said, there was this tragedy that occurred.  A soldier

25     was killed because individuals from the 10th Sabotage Detachment had

Page 18137

 1     stolen a UN personnel carrier, armoured personnel carrier, and it is for

 2     that reason that I went there to see what the problem was.  There was no

 3     other reason.  I know that orders were issued according to which all

 4     equipment should be returned, all materiel that had been taken from the

 5     UNPROFOR, there was quite a lot of that.  And that, in particular,

 6     concerned this personnel carrier.  What do they need a carrier for?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, you made a reference to part of

 8     the transcript of this case, that was called up on LiveNote.  You should

 9     please check if this is the correct reference.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Did I give the reference of P215?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, I think so, but then you said transcript

12     pages 10963?

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  10963.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, and this is now in front of us.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  I will double-check it, Mr. President.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that you should do that during the break.

18     We need our first break, and we will resume exactly in one hour,

19     five minutes before 5.00.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           --- On resuming at 4.58 p.m.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Because we had an extended break just now, we

25     should have the second break shorter than usual, and I think we should

Page 18138

 1     have the second break at 6.00, then 20 minutes break, and then we

 2     continue until 7.00.

 3             Mr. Vanderpuye, please continue.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, I was asking about some events concerning the

 6     12th of July, and in particular I had asked you whether you had gone to

 7     the compound of the 10th Sabotage Detachment in Dragosevac, and you had

 8     indicated that you believe that you were there on the 11th of July.

 9             Now, you had -- let me just ask this just to clarify this:  Do

10     you believe that you were there at the compound in Dragosevac on the same

11     day that it was the meeting in Bratunac with Mladic and the brigade

12     commanders?  Was it the same day to your recollection?

13        A.   I think so.

14        Q.   And you believe that that occurred on the 11th, that is, the same

15     day that the 10th Sabotage soldier died as a result of an accident with

16     an APC, it was that same day?  I see you nodding your head, but you need

17     to answer out loud for the record.

18        A.   Yes, in fact I didn't know that that soldier had died.  I knew

19     that he -- or, rather, I knew the personnel -- the armoured personnel

20     carrier had been seized and it had turned over.  When I went down there I

21     was told that that soldier had died, but it was all over by that time.

22     So this all happened afterwards.  I didn't see that soldier who died, nor

23     did I see any other injured soldiers who were involved in this event.

24        Q.   All right.  I just want to show you one document which I think

25     may assist you in your recollection.

Page 18139

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, this is not on my original

 2     exhibit list, and I don't intend to tender it.  It's already in evidence,

 3     but I want to show it to the witness to see if that refreshes his

 4     recollection.  It's P2589.  It concerns an individual by the name of

 5     Dragan Koljivrat who was a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment as this

 6     Chamber as heard in the evidence of this case at transcript page 1880.

 7     And this is the death notice that was associated with his funeral.

 8        Q.   We have some issues displaying it, but can you see in this death

 9     notice the statement that it's -- that he died courageously while

10     defending the fatherland on 12 July, 1995, at the age of 25.  Do you see

11     that?  It's just under his name.

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.

13        Q.   All right.  Does that help in any way to refresh your

14     recollection?

15        A.   No.  To be quite frank, I can't remember the name.  I can't see

16     the image of the person, and to tell you the truth, I didn't know him, so

17     I haven't remembered anything.  You saw the date, the 12th.  Fine.  I

18     have nothing against that.  But I am telling you that I believe that it

19     was on the 11th that I went down there.

20        Q.   Okay.  On the 12th of July, you may recall that there were many

21     prisoners along the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje.  Did you

22     pass along that road per chance during that day?

23        A.   Sir, I can't remember there being a lot of prisoners, or, rather,

24     I didn't see a single prisoner from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.  I didn't

25     see a single prisoner on that day that I went there, around midday or

Page 18140

 1     1300 hours.  On my way from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, and then -- to

 2     this other place --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't catch the name of

 4     the other place that the witness mentioned.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I didn't see a single such

 6     prisoner.  I believe there were no prisoners at the time.  Perhaps I am

 7     mistaken, but at the time that you are referring to, I believe that there

 8     were no prisoners.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:

10        Q.   All right.  I just want to clarify something for the record.  You

11     mentioned, I think, three locations.  The interpreter didn't catch one of

12     them.  You said Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, and then another place.  Can

13     you tell us what you said or repeat it.  Vlasenica?

14        A.   I mentioned two places.  Vlasenica and Han Pijesak.

15        Q.   Thank you.  That night, that is the night of 12th,

16     St. Peter's Day again, can you tell us where you spent the night, to your

17     recollection?

18        A.   Well, I spent all those nights in the Main Staff, while I was in

19     the territory of Republika Srpska.  Where else would I sleep?  There was

20     nowhere else for me to sleep apart from the Main Staff.

21        Q.   Fair enough.  Where did General Mladic spend that night?

22        A.   We arrived there together.  He was in his own premises and I was

23     down there in the place where -- the place where the offices were

24     located.

25        Q.   And what about the night before, the 11th July?  Can you tell us

Page 18141

 1     where General Mladic spent the night?

 2        A.   I told you that I felt uncomfortable that night because we were

 3     passing through that territory.  Subsequently, I discovered that there

 4     had been Muslim ambushes, some people were killed.  I don't know if that

 5     was the case that night, but that happened later on, perhaps.  But we

 6     slept in the Main Staff.  I think there was nowhere else.  We arrived

 7     late.

 8        Q.   All right.  And on the 12th, just so we have it clear for the

 9     record, when you travelled between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje and then

10     Vlasenica and Han Pijesak, were you with General Mladic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let me take you to the 13th of July.  Do you remember

13     where you spent the day -- or spent that day, rather?

14        A.   I've really tried to remember even during my stay here, but on

15     that day I think we were up there in the village where General Krstic had

16     that command position of his on the 13th.  I think that's what happened.

17        Q.   Would that be Krivace village?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  Not Kravica but Krivace.  Yes, you're quite right,

19     Krivace.

20        Q.   And when during the day did you go there?

21        A.   You are really asking a lot of me.  I can't remember exactly.  I

22     perhaps went there on two occasions that day, and believe me, I don't

23     know.  I can't remember.  I can't give you a precise answer.  It wouldn't

24     be right for me to try to do so.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, you were -- did you have the same assignment to

Page 18142

 1     provide protection to General Mladic on that day?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   And you know that on that day General Mladic went to various

 4     locations, Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Sandici meadow, where he spoke to

 5     prisoners, right?

 6        A.   On the 13th of July, the 13th of July?  I really can't remember.

 7        Q.   Well, do you remember any particular day where General Mladic

 8     went from place to place to speak to prisoners from Srebrenica?

 9        A.   No, I can't remember.  I can't remember these places, no.

10        Q.   Rather than the places, can you remember an event or events where

11     General Mladic had done such a thing, that is, to speak to prisoners,

12     regardless of what location?  This is -- we are talking about many

13     prisoners from Srebrenica.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you ever hear about an incident which occurred on the

16     13th of July concerning the Kravica warehouse?

17        A.   Yes, I heard about that incident.

18        Q.   And you heard that many prisoners were killed there; is that

19     right?

20        A.   Subsequently, yes.  That is what I heard.

21        Q.   On the day that that happened, do you remember where you were?

22     Other than visiting General Krstic in Krivace.

23        A.   First of all, I don't know when that happened exactly.  I didn't

24     know.  It was only later that I came to know about that.  As for where I

25     was on that day, when it was -- you say it was the 13th, but I am telling

Page 18143

 1     you that I was in Krivace for sure with General Mladic.  There were some

 2     problems with regard to bringing certain units in.  There were other

 3     problems because part of the unit didn't want to go into combat.  I can

 4     remember that, but I didn't know about that on that day.  It was only

 5     subsequently that I found out that this took place in Kravica or that

 6     what happened happened in Kravica.

 7        Q.   Were you with General Mladic in Vlasenica at the Drina Corps

 8     command when he made General Krstic the commander of the Drina Corps?

 9        A.   Well, let me try and remember.  I think I was present at that

10     event, but I wasn't directly involved.  I think that I was in the command

11     building, the Drina Corps command building.  As for the date, believe me

12     I really don't know what the date was.  I know that we arrived in

13     Vlasenica.  We were there for an hour or two, after which we returned to

14     the Main Staff.  I think that that ambush was laid on that day, and a

15     soldier from the Main Staff, whose name I can't remember, well, his

16     vehicle was riddled with bullets, and that was at the Han Pogled pass

17     that we were to pass through.  I only found out about this later on

18     because I wasn't really concerned about where we were going.  I had a

19     weapon that was ready to be used at any point in time, so I wasn't

20     interested in what was going on.  I wasn't interested in the stories that

21     were being told, either.  All I was interested in was General Mladic's

22     security.

23        Q.   Can you tell us, after you went to the Main Staff or returned to

24     the Main Staff that day, did you go anywhere else or did General Mladic

25     go anywhere else?

Page 18144

 1        A.   When?  After returning from Vlasenica?  Which period do you have

 2     in mind?

 3        Q.   Yes, when you returned to the Main Staff from Vlasenica on the

 4     13th.

 5        A.   Night had already fallen, I am certain of that, as far as I can

 6     remember.  And I don't think we went anywhere else.  I don't believe so.

 7        Q.   Is it fair to say then, to your recollection, that General Mladic

 8     was at the Main Staff throughout the night of the 13th of July, 1995?

 9        A.   Sir, I am not providing any dates because I quite simply can't

10     remember.  I've already said this.  I wasn't concerned with the dates,

11     the time, the place, all I was interested in was General Mladic's

12     security.  When he said, "Let's go," we would leave.  If I remember

13     certain things, well, then I remember them along the way, but I can't

14     really tell you whether it was on the evening of the 13th.

15             As this might be detrimental to me, I would request that we move

16     into private session, if that's not a problem.

17        Q.   It's not a problem, Mr. Pecanac.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  With the Court's leave.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18145











11 Pages 18145-18157 redacted. Private session.















Page 18158

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Pecanac.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I would

14     nevertheless ask you to allow us to remain in private session because

15     some information that I provide might be self-incriminating.  If they

16     refer to the 15th of July, I would kindly ask you to grant me this, and I

17     am sure that the Prosecution is aware of that.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Out of caution, we should go back into private

19     session, if you would agree, Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18159











11 Pages 18159-18162 redacted. Private session.















Page 18163

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be a shorter break than usual.  We resume

20     in 20 minutes, that means 6.25.

21                           --- Recess taken at 6.04 p.m.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24                           --- On resuming at 6.26 p.m.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Please carry on.  If there

Page 18164

 1     is a need to go back into private session, then let me know, please.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Pecanac, we were talking about the events of 15 July.  What

 4     I'd like to know is:  Following the meeting on that day --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you go ahead with this line of

 6     questions, we should go into private session, again, like we did before

 7     the break.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, I don't intend to go into the substance of

 9     the meeting, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   I would just --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   I would just like to know, Mr. Pecanac, following that meeting,

16     did you remain in Belgrade?

17        A.   Your Honour, could we please move into closed or, rather, private

18     session because, in my opinion, any information that I provide you with

19     could incriminate me.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18165











11 Pages 18165-18176 redacted. Private session.















Page 18177

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We have to adjourn for the

15     day and we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom III.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

18                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.