Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18509

 1                           Monday, 30 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     to those following these proceedings.  We turn, briefly, into private

 7     session, please.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 18510

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             Are there any other matters to be addressed before the next

12     witness is coming in?

13             Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

15     everyone.  Yes, there is one matter that may help the overall

16     administrative of justice, not just for our case but for the Karadzic

17     case as well.  I have been informed that the Karadzic Defence has made a

18     request for confidential material in our case, which, as you know, is

19     part of the ongoing process.  I believe they -- they are looking for the

20     testimony of 208 who partially testified in public, as you know,

21     recently, and we have filed our notice of compliance and not objected to

22     that.  And we just did it this afternoon.

23             Apparently, the Prosecution in Karadzic would really like to be

24     able to get the Defence their request because there may be some Rule 68,

25     that kind of thing, and there are some witnesses that are coming up where

Page 18511

 1     the Defence really would like to have it.  And so it's my understanding

 2     that if we can get from General Tolimir his view on whether he and

 3     Mr. Gajic have any problems with that material being released per the

 4     procedures, that should be able to free it up if he doesn't.  If he does,

 5     of course, then that's another matter.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I take it that this relates to a

 7     decision of this Chamber filed last year that the Defence in the Karadzic

 8     case may be -- have access to confidential material in our case, and

 9     indeed we asked the parties to update the Chamber on a monthly basis

10     to -- about the progress in that respect.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  This is our second notice, and my memory of

12     this is that perhaps you had to remind us a time or two to do this so --

13     but, yes, that's --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's true.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is absolutely where this is coming from.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Tolimir, what is your position in that respect?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

19     you, Mr. McCloskey.  Greetings to everyone present here.  And peace unto

20     this courtroom, and let the outcome of this trial be decided by

21     providence rather than by my wishes.

22             The Defence has no objection to any disclosure whatsoever, and

23     since this is a Prosecution witness, it is up to them to decide.  We

24     didn't even have any questions for that witness.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is, I think, not quite correct because both

Page 18512

 1     parties have to agree on this kind of disclosure of confidential material

 2     and we asked both parties, that means also the Defence, to update us on a

 3     monthly basis.  But I take it this is now your agreement with this

 4     disclosure at this point in time.  This is now on the record, but I

 5     expect you to file such submissions and notices to the Chamber on a

 6     monthly basis.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Registry will provide the Defence in the

 9     Karadzic case with the relevant material.

10             Any other matters to be dealt with before the witness is coming

11     in?

12             Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has only

14     one oral submission, pursuant to 65 ter Rule.  It concerns a document

15     that we have received just now over the weekend from the witness himself

16     during the proofing session.  It is a document uploaded in e-court under

17     number 1D111, 65 ter 1D111.  There is one digit missing.  There should be

18     four 1s.  1D1111.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it on the record.  Can you -- and you

20     said it is uploaded in e-court and it's available to the Prosecution,

21     too?

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  It is available to

23     the Prosecution, too.  Unfortunately, we don't have a translation into

24     English since we received this document over the weekend.  This concerns

25     the notes that the witness made during the relevant period during the

Page 18513

 1     war, and we believe that it contains relevant information that will be of

 2     assistance to the Trial Chamber to reach a proper decision, and we are

 3     going to use this document during the examination of this witness.  We

 4     are also going to give the CLSS some time to translate at least one

 5     portion of this document or -- but I don't believe that we shall be able

 6     to question this witness about it today.

 7             Therefore, we are kindly asking the leave of the Chamber to allow

 8     us to add this one document to our 65 ter list.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objection?

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I have not seen it yet, Mr. President, but no,

11     not at all.  That's, of course, normally happens all the time here and we

12     have no problem.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then leave is granted to add this document,

14     1D1111, to the Defence 65 ter exhibit list.

15             Anything else to be dealt with now?

16             Since this is not the case, the witness should be brought in,

17     please.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Skrbic.  Welcome to the

20     Tribunal.  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which

21     is shown to you now.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

25     yourself comfortable.

Page 18514

 1                           WITNESS:  PETAR SKRBIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Defence, that means Mr. Tolimir, is now

 4     conducting his examination-in-chief, followed by the Prosecution.  Did

 5     you receive a proper interpretation?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please commence your

 8     examination-in-chief.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Examination by Mr. Tolimir:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Greetings to Mr. Skrbic and I wish him a

12     pleasant stay here with us.  I have a few questions for him.  Can you

13     please tell us your full name, for the record?  Thank you.

14        A.   My name is Petar Skrbic.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you also tell us, for the record, what is your

16     current occupation?

17        A.   I was born on the 20th of October, 1946, in Glamoc, in the

18     People's Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina that was part at the time of

19     the Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia.  My birthplace was

20     unfortunately burned in 1995, and my parent's house is no longer there.

21     This is where I finished my elementary school, then I went to the

22     teacher's college, and then a military academy.  At the moment, I am

23     retired and I am mostly engaged in scientific research work.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 18515

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry to interrupt, but that was a very simple

 2     question of his occupation and he offered a whole lot of details about

 3     the burning of his house and things, so I would hope that we can direct

 4     the witness to try to answer the question; otherwise, this is going to be

 5     quite a long day.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I was going to do the same to give

 7     some guidance in that respect, but I didn't want to do that after the

 8     first question of the witness -- put to the witness.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

12     you, Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic, for your answer.  My next question is as

15     follows:  Have you ever testified before this Tribunal, and if you have,

16     in which cases?  Thank you.

17        A.   I have testified before this Tribunal on two occasions.  For the

18     first time it was in Popovic et al. case, and for the second time it was

19     in the Perisic case.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you appear in the Popovic et al. case as a

21     Defence witness or a Prosecution witness?  And the same question applies

22     to the Perisic case as well.

23        A.   In the Popovic et al. case I was a Prosecution witness, and in

24     the Perisic case I was a Defence witness.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us, briefly, something about your

Page 18516

 1     educational background?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I finished elementary school in my birthplace in the village of

 3     Hotkovci in Glamoc.  I started attending teacher's college in Livno for

 4     one year, and I finished it in Banja Luka in 1965.  I had scholarship

 5     granted by the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.  When I finished the teacher's

 6     college, I went to the military academy in Belgrade.  I attended a

 7     general course there for two years, then one semester I spent in Zadar,

 8     and after that I returned to Batajnica, near Belgrade, where I finished

 9     rocket missile school in 1968.  In --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat the year, again.

11             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you.  I have to stop you for a

13     moment.  The interpreters didn't catch part of your answer, especially in

14     relation to a year.  The last sentence you started was:

15             "I attended a general course there for two years, then one

16     semester I spent in Zadar, and after that I returned to Batajnica, near

17     Belgrade, where I finished rocket missile school in 1968 ..."

18             From there on, please, repeat what you have said.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am going to repeat, Your Honours.

20     I understand your question.

21             This rocket missile school was part of the anti-aircraft defence

22     course, and I finished it in 1968.  Then in 1978 I finished high military

23     and political school.  In 1983 I acquired an MA at the faculty of

24     political sciences, and my thesis was:  "Freedom as the Meaning and

25     Essence of the Defence of a Society."

Page 18517

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Skrbic, if I may ask you to try and speak more

 3     slowly for the benefit of the interpreters.  I will do my best to do the

 4     same because both of us speak the same language and this is causing

 5     problems for them.  Thank you.

 6             Now, please, can you tell us when did you become a member of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I became a member of the Army of Republika Srpska on the

 9     17th December, 1993.  Your Honours, earlier I gave a statement in which I

10     said that I became a member on the 17th November, 1993.  I don't know

11     whether that was my mistake or somebody else's mistake.  I would, anyway,

12     like this to be corrected.  So the correct date is the 17th of December,

13     1993.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

15             Mr. Tolimir.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Can you please tell the

18     Chamber something about your career prior to 1993 when you joined the

19     Army of Republika Srpska on the 17th of December?  Thank you.

20        A.   After I finished military academy, I was assigned to the

21     1st Rocket Battalion of the 205th [as interpreted] Rocket Regiment in

22     Batajnica.  I worked there as a technician involved in creating commands.

23     Maybe this is incomprehensible for you, but I have to tell you what the

24     title of my job was at the time.

25             After that I was transferred to the rocket brigade command in

Page 18518

 1     Belgrade, where I discharged the duties of a commander and, at the same

 2     time, I was the chief of the operations centre of the 205th [as

 3     interpreted] Operational Regiment.  After that, I was an assistant of the

 4     division commander for political guidance until 1977.

 5             As I said, in that year I started attending the school, as I

 6     already indicated, which I finished in 1979.  In this high political

 7     school of the JNA, following its completion, I taught the subject which

 8     was called dialectical philosophy of society [as interpreted].  I

 9     remained in that post until 1985.  In the meantime, General Tolimir also

10     finished a course as an attendee in the high political school which means

11     that I was one of his teachers.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately, it

14     seems that we have a couple of mistakes in the transcript.  First page 9,

15     lines 19 and 24.  I think that I heard the witness say "250th" not

16     "205th" or "2005th."

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I noticed that there were different ways to

18     record it, and therefore I would kindly ask you to say -- to give us the

19     correct number of this regiment again.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The exact designation number is

21     250th, 250, Rocket Regiment.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think now we have it on the record correctly.

23             Mr. Gajic.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, and on page 10,

25     line 4, the translation says "dialectical philosophy of society," and it

Page 18519

 1     should read, according to what the witness says, "the dialectics of

 2     society or philosophy."  So there is no equation between the two.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This might be an interpretation issue.

 4             Could you please, again, sir, tell us, you taught the subject

 5     which was called, and now again this subject, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The subject was called the

 7     dialectics of society.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you please tell us how your career progressed from that

13     moment onwards?  Thank you.

14        A.   From that moment on, I was assigned to the political

15     administration of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence.  I was an

16     officer in charge of idealogical and political guidance of JNA officers.

17     Later, I was assigned as official for scientific and research work in the

18     field of social sciences, that was in the JNA, the Yugoslav People's

19     Army.  When the JNA -- I apologise, I've remembered other duties that I

20     performed and perhaps it's relevant.

21             After my duties as an official for scientific research, I was

22     assigned to an analytical group which was involved in analysing and

23     dealing with the JNA and All People's Defence, and this was within the

24     framework of public information, within the framework of the media.

25     After the JNA was transformed into the Army of Yugoslavia, which was in

Page 18520

 1     1992, I was assigned to the administration for morale in the

 2     General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia as the chief of the

 3     1st Department for Morale, therefore for moral guidance.  And

 4     three months prior to the completion of my duties in the Army of

 5     Yugoslavia, I performed the duties of the director of military editorial

 6     centre of the Army of Yugoslavia.  It was also a publishing group.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please inform the Chamber whether anyone

 8     forced you to go to the Army of Republika Srpska?  And could you briefly

 9     tell us about the circumstances under which you became a member of the

10     Army of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

11        A.   No one forced me to join the Army of Republika Srpska.  As for

12     the circumstances, as I was involved in analytical work, I was quite

13     familiar with the circumstances, the circumstances were such that the

14     circumstances themselves put pressure on -- on a man and on one's reason.

15     Then it was also often said that those who were there should defend their

16     homeland, the place they were born in, and in my opinion that's quite

17     correct.

18             And in 1992 I wanted to go to Republika Srpska.  However, the

19     chief of the General Staff, General Zivota Panic prevented me from doing

20     so, because I was forced to carry out an analysis for the General Staff.

21     And then, thus, in 1993, I decided to go to the Army of Republika Srpska.

22     That was in 1993 and I went there.  You already have that information.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us, when you arrived in the Army of

24     Republika Srpska, when you joined it, what rank did you have and what

25     establishment position did you have?

Page 18521

 1        A.   When I joined the Army of Republika Srpska, my rank was that of a

 2     colonel.  I had to perform the duties of an assistant commander for

 3     morale, religious, and legal affairs in the 2nd Krajina Corps.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us which duties you performed, if they

 5     were numerous, within the 2nd Krajina Corps?  Thank you.  I am referring

 6     to the duties you had to perform as an assistant for religious and legal

 7     affairs.  Thank you.

 8        A.   I've understood your question, Mr. Tolimir.  Within the field of

 9     morale, the duties I performed involved gathering and analysing

10     information on the morale of all the members of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

11     And on that basis, I submitted a monthly report to the General Staff of

12     the Army of Republika Srpska, which would then be signed by the corps

13     commander.

14             As for religious affairs, we co-operated with the

15     Orthodox Church.  When anniversaries were held or celebrations were held

16     in the army, there were anniversaries, consecration of buildings, of the

17     flags of certain brigades, and there were also religious services,

18     masses, outside the army in churches, so then we tried to see how to take

19     members of the army to the church to see when they were free or when they

20     weren't involved in combat activities and so on and so forth.

21             As far as legal affairs are concerned, I had a reserve officer

22     who was a judge in Bosnian Petrovac, a civilian judge in Bosnian Petrovac

23     [as interpreted], and his task was to analyse and gather information on

24     violations of discipline and on crimes.  And he had to submit reports to

25     the military prosecutor's office in Banja Luka, and that office would

Page 18522

 1     then decide whether to institute proceedings or not.

 2             Your Honours, I've really tried to be brief but it wasn't

 3     possible for me to be more succinct, so I do apologise if I went into

 4     some detail.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed we all would appreciate if you could be as

 8     short and as precise as possible.

 9             Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Did you remain in the 2nd Corps until the end of the war, or were

13     you also in some other unit?  Thank you.

14        A.   I didn't remain in the 2nd Krajina Corps until the end, but in

15     July 1994 I was transferred to the General Staff of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us what your establishment position

18     was in the Army of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  We are getting a --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- a translation that is "the General Staff," and

22     I just -- I don't know if he's saying "general" or "glavni."  And I know

23     they know the difference but I just want to point that out because there

24     is a difference.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please clarify the right

Page 18523

 1     term with the witness?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, which unit did you join after you were transferred

 5     from the 2nd Krajina Corps, and what was your establishment position?

 6     Thank you.

 7        A.   I was transferred to the Main Staff of the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska.  My position was that of assistant commander of the

 9     Main Staff, responsible for organisational, mobilisation, and personnel

10     issues.

11        Q.   Thank you.  To describe your career, before we move on to other

12     essential issues, could you tell us how long you stayed in the

13     Army of Republika Srpska and how did your career subsequently develop?

14     Thank you.

15        A.   I remained in the Army of Republika Srpska until the end of 1996.

16     At the beginning of 1997, I was transferred to the Army of Yugoslavia.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You're microphone is off, Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters and

20     to the Chamber.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Could you tell us which place you went to and which establishment

23     position did you have in the Army of Yugoslavia, after you left the Army

24     of Republika Srpska?  Thank you.  And I do apologise.

25        A.   I was assigned to the personnel department of the General Staff

Page 18524

 1     of the Army of Yugoslavia, and I was the assistant for the -- the

 2     assistant chief for the personnel department in the year 2000.  By decree

 3     of the president of the republic, I was assigned to the deputy or the

 4     assistant chief for the administration for moral guidance, and on that

 5     very same year -- in that very same year I was the minister of defence

 6     for information.  In 2001, on the 4th [as interpreted] of April, my

 7     military career came to an end.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpretation -- interpreter's correction, I

 9     was assistant minister.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In order for the record, could you tell us when you retired in

12     2001, in which month did you retire, and what was your rank when you

13     retired?

14        A.   I retired on the 1st of April, 2001.  My rank was

15     lieutenant-general.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Let's move on to your duties as the

17     assistant commander for organisational matters in the Army of

18     Republika Srpska in its Main Staff.  Can you tell us where the sector for

19     organisational and personnel issues is located, and you're a member of

20     that body?  Thank you.

21        A.   Mr. Tolimir, do you have the place, the location in mind?

22        Q.   Yes, I do apologise, Mr. Skrbic.  I am asking you about the

23     location, the place.  Thank you.

24        A.   All the staff who worked in the sector where I worked as an

25     assistant was located in Han Pijesak, the rear command post.

Page 18525

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us how far that was from the

 2     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in kilometres, and could you

 3     tell us where the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was actually

 4     located?  Thank you.

 5        A.   The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska was in a place

 6     called Crna Rijeka, which, in my assessment, is about 3 and a half to

 7     4 kilometres from Han Pijesak.

 8             I apologise, Your Honours.  I have to rephrase that, with your

 9     leave.  It's not a place.  It's not a village.  It was a location of the

10     Main Staff, but there was no settlement there.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Please, could you tell us what duties you

12     had as assistant commander for organisation, mobilisation, and personnel

13     issues in the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska?

14        A.   I had a lot of tasks that I had to carry out.  I'll try to give

15     you a general idea of these tasks and not go into all the details.  That

16     would take a lot of time.  But all the duties that I performed had to do

17     with personnel issues.  It concerned managing offices.  It involved

18     training, education, promotion, cessation of activity, and so on and so

19     forth.

20             As for organisation, as far as organisation is concerned, we

21     didn't have too much work because when I arrived in the Main Staff,

22     organisational matters had been dealt with.

23             Mobilisation -- well, the Main Staff had to draw up mobilisation

24     plans and co-ordinate this with units.  As for calling up men and

25     obtaining supplies, that was the responsibility of the Ministry of

Page 18526

 1     Defence.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  As you said, organisational matters had

 3     been dealt with.  Could you briefly tell the Chamber what organisation

 4     involves?  What is involved in organisational work?  Thank you.

 5        A.   Organisation is a system, and the army uses units and

 6     institutions that it sets up in order to function as a whole.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please, could you tell us whether you had all the

 8     information on the structure and organisation of the Main Staff and of

 9     other units of the Army of Republika Srpska that was subordinated to the

10     Main Staff?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Chamber what personnel

13     issues involves?  What field does this cover?  Thank you.

14        A.   Your Honours, I've partially provided you with a description of

15     those duties.  I'll add something else, and this concerns something that

16     was done together with the minister of defence of the Republika Srpska,

17     and this had to do with publishing competitions for military schools and

18     academies.  Other forms of training were under my responsibility, right

19     up to the level of military -- the military academy.  We didn't send

20     officers to military schools above the level of military academy, though

21     there are such schools, because we believed that war was the best way to

22     obtain an education.

23             As for other activities, there was the activity of assigning

24     professional and reserve officers or deploying them.  Assigning them

25     establishment positions, issuing orders that pertain to such

Page 18527

 1     establishment positions.  Then we had to deal with promotional matters,

 2     promoting to the rank of major or general.  A certain procedure then had

 3     to be followed, and I hope there will be questions about that because

 4     it's a different procedure for each and every category.  And then there

 5     was also the matter of retirement, if necessary.  I say "if necessary"

 6     because some men were wounded, some were killed.  A decision on

 7     retirement would have to be taken so that the family of a person

 8     concerned could receive certain benefits, for example.

 9             So there were quite a lot of tasks, and I think I have said

10     enough.  I wouldn't want to go into too many details about that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Since you discharge quite a few duties, can you tell

12     us, briefly, what did you mean by mobilisation, because that was also in

13     the name of the institution that you worked for?  Thank you.

14        A.   It implies the submission of requests to the Ministry of Defence

15     in order to call up conscripts and institutions to place their assets at

16     the disposal of the VRS Army.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us how mobilisation is being

18     carried out in wartime?  Thank you.

19        A.   There are several ways to do that.  When general mobilisation is

20     proclaimed, then men are not called up but, rather, units can freely

21     recruit all able-bodied men and engage them in units.  However, when

22     there is no mobilisation and no state of war, then civilian organisations

23     are the one who send out call-up papers, and they served personally to

24     each individual.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether there was a state of war

Page 18528

 1     declared in Republika Srpska, and if it was, when was that?  Thank you.

 2        A.   A state of war was declared in Republika Srpska in the area of

 3     responsibility of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  I believe that that was in

 4     early 1995.  Then what followed was the area of responsibility of the

 5     2nd Krajina Corps, again in 1995, and then in the area of Srebrenica in

 6     1995.  However, a state of war in the entire territory of

 7     Republika Srpska was declared only in October 1995.  I may be wrong with

 8     the months but the year is correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to organisation and mobilisation and

10     personnel duties that you discharged, did you perform any other duties?

11     And if you did, on whose orders did you do that whilst you were in the

12     Main Staff?

13        A.   Of course I did.  Of course I performed other duties as well, as

14     per orders of the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.  I had no

15     option but to comply.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us if your department was obliged

17     to keep precise records about organisations, structure, and level of

18     recruitment?

19        A.   Yes, that was one of our obligations.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what was the staffing level of the

21     Main Staff compared to those envisaged in the establishment?  If you have

22     this information.

23        A.   The staffing level of the Main Staff was very poor.  It didn't

24     reach 30 per cent.  Some organisational units within the staff had even a

25     lower percentage of the staffing levels.

Page 18529

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have P2227 in

 2     e-court.  Thank you.  It's a chart --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has a

 5     sufficient number of hard copies of this chart in both languages.  Since

 6     the screen is too small for this kind of chart, we believe that it would

 7     be beneficial for everyone following these proceedings be given a hard

 8     copy and the witness will have a copy in the B/C/S which is in A3 format.

 9     And I think that will facilitate the whole procedure for everyone

10     involved.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I appreciate that.  And the

12     Court Usher should give one copy to the witness, one to the Prosecution,

13     and for the Chamber, please.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter from the booth also would like

15     to have a copy.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, do you have enough copies so that we

17     can provide the interpreters also with a copy for every booth?

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] More than enough.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpreters should get one, too.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Usher.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, as you can see, this is the chart that depicts the

23     composition of the Main Staff of the VRS in July 1995.  My question is:

24     Did you have an opportunity to become familiarised with this chart as we

25     see it here during your preparations for your testimony here?

Page 18530

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  We see here that it says "The commander of the

 3     Main Staff" on top, and that's Colonel General Ratko Mladic.  Can you see

 4     that anything is missing there?

 5        A.   A box is missing there which should indicate his staff or cabinet

 6     or office.

 7        Q.   Since this box is missing, can you please insert it in the chart,

 8     if you know, and mark it with a number 1, or you can orally explain who

 9     members of the commander's office were while you were there, for the

10     record, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it's sufficient that it is

12     explained orally because we have one technical problem:  You see the

13     screen is divided.  On top we have the B/C/S version and below that the

14     English version of this chart.  That's helpful for those who can't read

15     both languages.  So it's, perhaps, more satisfying if the witness would

16     explain orally because, otherwise, he has to put some comments or in

17     additions to both versions on the screen.

18             Mr. Skrbic, are you able to answer the question?

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, can you tell us what should be added here next to the

21     box which says "Commander of the Main Staff" as an integral part of this

22     organ, and just explain this to us orally?

23        A.   Your Honours, I am going to try to simplify this as much as I

24     can, and I think that everyone listening to this will understand.  So a

25     box is missing which should indicate the office, and it is at the same

Page 18531

 1     level as the department for civilian affairs.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Since we see here the department for civilian affairs

 3     has two members of staff, can you tell us how many people would be in

 4     that box that is missing indicating the office of the Main Staff and who

 5     they were?

 6        A.   For a long time, this office box was blank, and after that we

 7     appointed Rajko Banduka who was transferred from the position of

 8     aide-de-camp, and then later on his rank was warrant officer.  And then

 9     later on --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of the

11     second member.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the second name you have

13     mentioned.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the second person was

15     Major Dragomir Pecanac.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, we see here that all the sectors in this third line

19     belonging to the Main Staff are indicated.  Can you tell us what was the

20     position of the Chief of the Main Staff?

21        A.   According to this organisational chart, the box that you are

22     asking me about, Mr. Tolimir, is correctly filled.  The Chief of Staff is

23     at the same time a deputy commander of the Main Staff.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what is the difference between the

25     commander and the Chief of Staff as his deputy, and what are his powers

Page 18532

 1     with regard to command and control?  Thank you.

 2        A.   This formulation, Your Honours, comes from the establishment of

 3     the VRS, and it says that the Chief of Staff is, at the same time, a

 4     deputy commander of the Main Staff.  According to that description, it

 5     means that the Chief of Staff stands in for the commander when he is

 6     prevented from carrying out his duties and no specific orders are needed.

 7     Other persons indicated here can only stand in for the commander pursuant

 8     to an appropriate document that can be -- only be issued by the president

 9     of the republic.  In short, the Chief of Staff can act as a deputy

10     commander at any given time but never when the commander is present.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Was it possible for the commander, if he

12     was there, to delegate certain powers with regard to command/control to

13     the Chief of Staff?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, it was.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain, briefly, what this meant in

16     practice in the operation of the Main Staff?

17        A.   As far as I know, Your Honours, was -- for example, the commander

18     was entitled to authorise his deputy to call us to attend the senior

19     staff meeting.  We would have to respond and comply without asking

20     whether he was authorised to do that because he would clearly be

21     authorised.  Now, as for controlling the staff units and other units, the

22     same applied but when he was present on the premises.  So he could only

23     perform the duties that the commander gave him the authority to do.

24        Q.   Now, further on we see that below the commander of the

25     Main Staff, we see assistant commanders.  Can you tell the Chamber who

Page 18533

 1     the assistant commanders were and how many of them were on the Main Staff

 2     of the VRS in 1995?  Thank you.

 3        A.   According to this chart, the assistant commander positions are

 4     accurately depicted.  The assistant for morale guidance, legal and

 5     religious affairs; assistant for logistics; assistant for mobilisation

 6     organisation, and personnel; assistant for intelligence and security; and

 7     the assistant for planning, development, and finances; and finally, the

 8     assistant for airforce and anti-aircraft defence.  In total,

 9     Your Honours, this is six assistants.  And, with your leave, I would like

10     this to be amended because the indictment says that there were seven

11     assistants.  And I accessed the indictment on the internet.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is your evidence and we have it on the

13     record.

14             Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, since you performed the duties of assistant commander

18     for personnel affairs, could you tell us what the role of the assistant

19     commander was in terms of control and command?  What your role was, in

20     fact?

21        A.   As assistant commander for personnel, organisational, and

22     mobilisation affairs, I had the duty of analysing the situation in the

23     Army of Republika Srpska, and I had to prepare material for meetings that

24     had to do with mobilisation, promotion, deployment, and the training of

25     officers.  Such material would be discussed at meetings of the

Page 18534

 1     commanders, but the decisions would only be taken by the commander, to be

 2     brief.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think there must be something missing, because

 7     our English says "meeting of the commanders," and I think we'll agree

 8     that there is one commander at the Main Staff, which, I think, Mr. Skrbic

 9     just said.  I'm sorry to ask him, I think he needs to repeat it because

10     it doesn't make sense the way it is in there.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you have heard the last sentence by

12     Mr. McCloskey.  We see on the record, I quote:

13             "Such material would be discussed at meetings of the commanders,"

14     plural.

15             Can you repeat what you really said, precisely?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.  At

17     those meetings, at those collegiums, all the corps commanders were

18     present when the subject matter that I have just been speaking about was,

19     in fact, discussed.  So these were meetings of commanders, and the

20     commander of the Main Staff was in charge of those meetings.  He would

21     chair those meetings.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Which commanders?  It's not in the

24     transcript.  Because it's in the plural, could you reply -- could you

25     repeat which commanders?

Page 18535

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is on the record.  We have it on the record.

 2     He referred to the corps commanders who took part in meetings with the

 3     commander of the VRS.  This is my understanding.  I see the witness --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see the witness nodding.  You may continue,

 6     Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I do

 8     apologise.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

10        Q.   Could you very briefly and precisely tell us whether the

11     assistant commanders - and there are a number of them in this chart -

12     could you tell us whether they had a role to play of any kind when it

13     came to command and control?  Did they have the right to command and

14     control in the staff and in relation to the units?  Thank you.

15        A.   I apologise.  All the assistant commanders in the Main Staff had

16     the right to control but not to command.  Not a single one of them had

17     the right to command.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Since a distinction is made between command and

19     control in the answer, could you tell us what command involves and what

20     control involves?  What is the distinction to be made between these

21     two concepts in our army, in NATO, in the US, and so on and so forth?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   Your Honours, in the available literature, these concepts are

24     both compatible and incompatible.  In the West, it's a lot clearer.  The

25     term used there is "command."  In the Eastern world, we have the terms

Page 18536

 1     "command" and "control."  Sometimes the same is a meant by these two

 2     terms and sometimes a significant distinction is made.

 3             In the military schools of the JNA, there is a subject called

 4     "command and control."  And the administration would be involved in

 5     analysis of control, in planning, and so on, but command involved

 6     teaching about the singleness of command and it involved teaching about

 7     tasks.  But this isn't the place to discuss such scientific issues, so I

 8     think I would prefer to provide you with a practical example in order to

 9     try and explain to you what command and control actually means in the

10     Army of Republika Srpska.

11             In the Army of Republika Srpska, well, it is the Supreme

12     Commander who exercises command and control.  The Ministry of Defence

13     controls some parts that fall within that domain, but in the army itself,

14     both command and control are exercised, but only the commanders have the

15     right to command.  Only they have such authority, whereas all the others

16     don't have such authority unless authorised, for example, unless there is

17     an order issued by commanders authorising them.

18             So I could say that "control" resembles a civilian process, a

19     civilian organisation.  "Command" is a military process par excellence,

20     so that is why the term, the best and most precise term in that case is

21     "to command."

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Skrbic.  This question

25     concerning command and control is, in fact, a very complicated issue.  It

Page 18537

 1     is something that has been frequently discussed in this courtroom.  But

 2     let me come back to what you said in the transcript, page 28, line -- or

 3     lines 3 and 4.  The Ministry -- the minister of defence -- the Ministry

 4     of Defence - I am trying to translate this into French - controls, or,

 5     rather has a certain amount of responsibility for control, but the army

 6     itself is responsible for command -- or command and control, in fact.

 7             Is it possible for the Ministry of Defence to control something

 8     that it has no command over?  Do you have an example that you could

 9     provide us with?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's a little more

11     difficult for me to hear the interpreter now.  I don't know what's

12     happening, but I understand the Honourable Judge has just said.

13             When we are speaking about command in relation to the army, I

14     said - and this is on the base of experience and practice, it's not a

15     theoretical matter - the Ministry of Defence in Republika Srpska could

16     not have command over the Army of Republika Srpska because in wartime,

17     and it was a war, command would only be exercised under the Supreme

18     Commander, commander of the Army of Republika Srpska.  But the ministry

19     had certain duties that it controlled, you know.  Duties such as

20     mobilisation, obtaining equipment for the army, as well as food for the

21     army, but because it had to perform these activities, that didn't mean

22     that it had the right to exercise command over the army.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down while speaking, because we lost

24     some of your explanations on the transcript.

25             Judge Mindua.

Page 18538

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  That's very

 2     interesting, witness.  So the Ministry of Defence could, for example,

 3     exercise control over certain areas, supply, for example.  But the

 4     Ministry of Defence could not exercise command.

 5             The question I am putting to myself is whether we are dealing

 6     with a semantic problem.  Is it a matter of vocabulary?  With regard to

 7     supplies, could you try and provide me an example to explain what command

 8     involves in relation to supplies and what control involves in relation to

 9     supplies?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it is necessary to obtain

11     equipment of a certain kind, then the relevant decisions are taken by the

12     commander, that is to say, the Supreme Commander of the armed forces, and

13     that is the president of the republic.  He then assigns a task to the

14     government.  The government then forwards the task to the Ministry of

15     Defence, which is an integral part of the government.  But since it's

16     involved -- but although it is involved in obtaining equipment and

17     supplies, that does not mean that it has the right to exercise command

18     over the army.

19             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have understood your

20     answer.  You are quite right.  But this is my last question:  Could the

21     ministry, for example, decide or order a commander to use three vehicles

22     and afterwards could it exercise control, or did the ministry have to go

23     along with the decision on the number of vehicles to be used if that

24     decision was taken by the commander?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the ministry couldn't

Page 18539

 1     issue orders of any kind in the course of the war.  That was common

 2     practice.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.  If I may just take you back

 6     to the same quotation, but seeking a different clarification.  At page 28

 7     of today's transcript, starting from line 1, we have you recorded as

 8     stating that:

 9             "In the Army of Republika Srpska -- in the Army of Republika

10     Srpska, well, it is the Supreme Commander who exercises command and

11     control," and you go on up to line 8.  In this passage you are using the

12     word "commander" and "commanders" interchangeably.  I am a bit confused.

13     For example, when you say:

14             "But in the army itself, both command and control are exercised,"

15     you don't say by who, "but only the commanders have the right to

16     command."

17             I assume by this you are saying assistant commanders or corps

18     commanders.  And then you go on to say:

19             "Unless there is an order issued by commanders authorising them."

20             Again, I am not quite sure which segment of the commanders you

21     are referring to.  I wonder if you could clarify that particular portion

22     of your evidence for me again, please.  Thank you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, some concepts are

24     clear to me and I do speak rapidly, but I am surprised, however, that

25     such confusion has been caused.  I'll try and be more precise.

Page 18540

 1             Within the army itself, only commanders can exercise command.  We

 2     start with the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

 3     Srpska, who has command over corps commanders.  So the corps commanders

 4     exercise command over all the units within their corps.  The brigade

 5     commanders exercise command over the brigades.  The other members of the

 6     command don't have the right to exercise a command, but they do have to

 7     deal or, rather, perform the duties they are responsible for.  They have

 8     to perform analysis.  They have to propose measures to be taken by their

 9     commanders.  For example, we would also propose measures to be taken to

10     the commander of the Main Staff, but they also have to report on the

11     implementation of the measures.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much for your answer.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would suggest that this is a convenient time

14     for our first break.  We will resume after half an hour at 4.15.  We

15     adjourn.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please continue your

21     examination.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, a moment ago you described and explained the various

25     relations and relationships between commanders; in other words, the

Page 18541

 1     Main Staff commander and the corps commanders.  So my question is this:

 2     Since you were an assistant commander both in the Main Staff and at corps

 3     level, can you tell us whether the assistant commander at the Main Staff

 4     could issue orders to assistant commanders at corps levels?  In other

 5     words, did they have command ability or capability?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you issue an order to someone who came to

 8     replace you at the 2nd Corps once you were transferred to the Main Staff?

 9     Thank you.

10        A.   All I could do is seek information from him, but I could not

11     issue commands to him.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And could that person send any requests to you

13     directly and sign them himself, personally, so could that be done in that

14     way or what was the procedure?

15        A.   No, that person would not be able to send any requests to me

16     without his commander's signature.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just, sorry for the interruption, but we

20     repeatedly are getting the -- Mr. Skrbic working for the 2nd Corps.

21     Somehow 2nd Krajina Corps is getting left out of it, and given that who

22     we know the 2nd Corps is, I think it's probably an issue of speed, but I

23     just wanted to point that out.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We will

25     resolve that.  I will put a question to the witness.

Page 18542

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, did any organ within the corps have the capability to

 3     send any request to you, even if it was dealing with the same issues that

 4     they dealt with at the corps level as the issues that you dealt with at

 5     the Main Staff level, and could they sign such requests?

 6        A.   Your Honour, in my purview usually the issues that I dealt with

 7     were proposals for promotions, and such requests could not be sent by an

 8     assistant commander at the 2nd Krajina Corps without the signature of the

 9     commander of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Now my next question:  If an organ from

11     within your sector were to be sent per order of the commander to a lower

12     level unit at the brigade level or so, would you be able to issue orders

13     to such an individual?  Thank you.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And would that person be allowed to send reports to

16     you if he was acting in -- if he was acting according to the orders from

17     the commander who was sent?  So could he send reports to someone from

18     your sector?

19        A.   Regardless of who it was who was at my sector, who it was that

20     sent him, the person --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat this part of

22     his answer.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to stop you for a moment.  We have two

24     problems:  One is that you are speaking quite fast, like Mr. Tolimir does

25     sometimes, too, and you are overlapping.  Please pause between question

Page 18543

 1     and answer.  The interpreters have to finalise their interpretation,

 2     otherwise they will not get the first part of your answer.

 3             Could you please repeat the whole answer again.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.  So far

 5     I've tried to slow down, and I don't know why I picked up speed.  Perhaps

 6     because the question was a very broad one, so I was just trying to save

 7     some time.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  I will try to be brief in my questions

11     and clearer.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I asked the witness to repeat his

13     answer and I would like to hear the answer.

14             Please repeat the last answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All those who were transferred to

16     units or were sent there in order to perform an analysis of the situation

17     are duty-bound to assess the situation within their line of service.  So

18     those who were within the unit and who dealt with issues belonging to the

19     same purview would report to them, and then this information would be

20     collated and reported to the commander who sent them to do this.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Skrbic, the individuals who were sent to a

23     lower-level unit, corps or brigade, either independently or as part of a

24     team, who was it that they had to submit reports?  Was it to the

25     commander or to someone else?

Page 18544

 1        A.   They had to report -- to submit reports to their commander alone.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now the next question:  If someone from your sector,

 3     a person who was your subordinate, was sent to carry out a task from

 4     another purview that had nothing to do with mobilisation, for instance,

 5     but at a lower level, corps or brigade level, did that person have to

 6     report to you on any matters and was it their duty to send written

 7     reports to you on their work, on the task that they were assigned to

 8     perform?  Thank you.

 9        A.   No, they didn't have to do that.  But I would like to make a

10     distinction here.  If a commander assigned an individual from my sector

11     to carry out another task, another assignment, he does not -- he was not

12     obliged to inform me of that; however, if that individual was sent to

13     carry out an assignment which was within my purview, that field, then

14     they would have to report to me and inform me.

15        Q.   And was he supposed to report during the task or following a

16     task -- following a completion of the task?

17        A.   Following the completion of the task.

18        Q.   So he would have to report on whose orders he performed that task

19     as well, right?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, could you issue any orders or could

22     you issue commands to an assistant corps commander for organisation,

23     personnel, and mobilisation without the approval of the commander from

24     the Main Staff?  Thank you.

25        A.   Your Honours, there are quite a number of jobs that have to be

Page 18545

 1     done within my sector that run on a continuous basis, and people who were

 2     in charge of these areas knew ahead of time what it was that they were

 3     supposed to do.  However, I could not take any steps that had to deal

 4     with the corps without the approval of the commander from the Main Staff

 5     of the VRS.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you please explain just briefly what the

 7     difference is between the sector, an administration, and an institution

 8     or institute at the level of the main corps -- Main Staff and the corps

 9     levels?  Thank you.

10        A.   Sectors or departments were complex units.  They are more complex

11     than administrations because their purview was broader.  Administrations

12     are of somewhat lower level rank than sectors or administrations because

13     the volume of work that they had to do was less.  And then you asked me

14     about the institutes.  Those are organisational units within the VRS that

15     dealt with civilian affairs or semi --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Semi-civilian

17     affairs.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- for the needs of the VRS, some

19     of which or some of whom were part of the VRS.  And if you would like me,

20     I can provide some examples.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please then answer my question that I am

23     going to put now, and then you can give us some examples.  Now, tell

24     us -- now, could there be the same type of work or same jobs that would

25     be assigned to various sectors; in other words, sectors that deal with

Page 18546

 1     various departments of work?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Well, I am not really clear what you are trying to ask me, but

 3     can I try to clarify it, at least the way I understand it.  Jobs of

 4     similar type are usually put within the same sector.  They are assigned

 5     to the same sector.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was it possible for a chief of sector or department

 7     to be a person who did similar work --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the question be

 9     repeated, please.  It was not understood by interpreter.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked you to repeat

11     your question because they didn't catch it.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   The chief of sector, could he issue commands to all parts of his

15     sector, administrations, units, and so on, or did he just unify them in

16     terms of organisation or location?

17        A.   Your Honour, with all due respect to General Tolimir, there was

18     no chief of sector.  There were assistant commanders for various areas.

19     That was the official title in official documents.  However, for ease of

20     communication we can refer to them as chiefs, although such a title did

21     not really exist.

22             So an assistant in charge of a certain sector was responsible for

23     the command and control of that sector, and then within the sector

24     itself, the officers were his subordinates.  But outside of the sector,

25     no one was subordinate to him.  The relationships within the sector

Page 18547

 1     itself were functional.  For instance, General Djukic as the assistant

 2     commander for logistics could co-operate with another assistant

 3     commander, but we could not issue orders to one another.

 4        Q.   Thank you for your clarification and for the correction.  But can

 5     you tell me, please, your organ or sector, could it be part of the rear

 6     organ or logistics organ that was under the command of General Djukic?

 7     Thank you.

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, please, in our army was a distinction made

10     between command and control, or, rather, "komandovanje, rukovodjenje i

11     kontrola."  Command, directing, and control.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, again this topic?

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that everyone

14     is aware of this problem.  We do not have an exact interpretation because

15     the semantics are different.  So we have different terms.  We have the

16     word "komandovanje," "command"; "rukovodjenje," "direction"; and

17     "kontrola," "control."

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, it's, of course, a problem to have

19     different languages in our record but it is taped and it might be checked

20     at a later stage which words were originally spoken and which translation

21     was used.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I don't want to bring up the old dispute,

24     but CLSS has translated "komandovanje" and "rukovodjenje" as "command"

25     and "control," and the term "kontrola" also is "control," not as

Page 18548

 1     "direction" as Mr. Gajic would prefer it.  And so as long as we

 2     understand that, I think we can go ahead, but that -- that's the

 3     situation, the old debate which we obviously won't resolve here.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is why I say on page 39, line 1, I

 5     didn't ask Mr. Gajic to help.  I said "again this topic," with a question

 6     mark, because we indeed have had this discussion quite often.

 7             Mr. Gajic, you want to say something.

 8             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just in order to be

 9     clear for the record, I spoke in Serbian and I mentioned the terms that

10     Mr. Tolimir mentioned, and I was very careful not to say anything that

11     might be understood to be leading to the witness or anyone else.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this witness is capable to describe his

13     position and his duties in the VRS properly, and this is the reason why I

14     would like to put a question to him.

15             Mr. Skrbic, you explained earlier today that there is a

16     distinction between command and control.  Did you have a control function

17     in your position as assistant commander in the Main Staff?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for making

19     it easier for me to answer this question, because I know exactly what my

20     purview was and what my responsibilities were.  As far as my relationship

21     with subordinate units, I had no control -- no command responsibilities.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me interrupt you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like really to clarify and to make a

25     distinction between command and control.  I just asked you about your --

Page 18549

 1     if you had a control function.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had a supervisory

 3     function, not control.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you explain that?  What is the difference

 5     between supervisory function and control?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A control entity had the right to

 7     take action and measures when something was established, a situation was

 8     established.  As for supervision, that only meant that we would observe

 9     how certain actions are carried out.  Control mainly had to do with

10     command and combat tasks; whereas supervision had to do with personnel

11     issues, security issues, logistics issues, and so on.

12             Your Honour, we were duty-bound to have -- for instance, as

13     assistant commander, I had to have insight into how certain orders for

14     appointments were carried out, how orders to do with relief of duty were

15     carried out, and so on.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  By carrying out this duty, it could happen that

17     you find out that somebody is not following the correct procedure and is

18     not abiding by orders.  What are you doing then?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would report that to

20     the commander of the Main Staff.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If somebody in your sector is not abiding by any

22     order, what are you doing then?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were no

24     situations like that, but if somebody who was directly subordinated to

25     me, there were measures that I could take then, but only in terms of

Page 18550

 1     reprimanding them.  I was not entitled to dismiss them.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Up to now we are dealing with the supervisory

 3     tasks, now we come to control.  Did you personally or did your sector

 4     have any control function in the VRS?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Your Honours, only within the

 6     teams appointed by the commander of the Main Staff in order to dispatch

 7     them to carry out control of subordinate units.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you have any command function in the VRS,

 9     inside your sector or to other units or subordinate units?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within my sector I was superior to

11     the officers appointed to that sector.  Apart from that, I was not

12     superior to anyone else.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you if you had command function of any

14     kind.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was your deputy?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Stojan Malcic was my

18     deputy.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was it possible that you did order him to do

20     something?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I asked you if you had command function of any

23     kind, and then you said "no," but you had command function in relation to

24     your deputy.  To whom else could you issue any kind of orders?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's this distinction that

Page 18551

 1     apparently cannot be properly established in our communications because

 2     there is still difference between command and control.  It was possible

 3     for me to issue orders to Colonel Slobodan Kovacevic who was one of my

 4     subordinates, as well as to Stojan Malcic, but command function has to do

 5     with the carrying out of combat missions.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I was just asking you about your command

 7     function you carried out personally, and you gave an answer.  You were in

 8     a position to issue orders to your deputy and to subordinates in your

 9     sector; is that correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was in a position to issue orders to a

12     subordinate unit, in the corps or somewhere else, which was responsible

13     for organisation, mobilisation, and personnel affairs?  For instance, in

14     a corps.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the commander of the

16     Main Staff issued orders to the corps commander within the relevant

17     domain.  I was not entitled to issue any corps orders of that kind.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not to any organisation in a subordinate unit

19     which was responsible, for instance, for mobilisation or personnel

20     affairs?  How about promotion or something else?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not a single unit.  All I could do,

22     Your Honour, was to intervene if they failed to submit proposals for

23     promotion in time and just to remind them that they were supposed to do

24     that.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What do you mean by "they"?

Page 18552

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the personnel organs from

 2     subordinate units, from the corps.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that a supervisory function, when you find out

 4     that they failed to report, for instance?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  We can agree

 6     that this constitutes a supervisory function.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Or was it a control function?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we are -- or I am struggling

 9     with this English terminology because in the Serbian language we

10     distinguish between "supervision" and "control," and we see control as a

11     more serious process which implies an imperative nature.  Supervisory is

12     a more lenient process and doesn't contain any imperatives.  This is a

13     distinction that I find difficult to explain for those who speak English.

14     If there is no other term in English for supervision, then we can agree

15     about control.  But I explained to you what was the scope of control and

16     what was the scope of supervision.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you found out that a subordinate unit didn't

18     report correctly, could you order them to report?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had the right to

20     send the report back to them, pointing out the mistakes and asking them

21     to correct it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for your answers.

23             Mr. Gajic, you wanted to raise a matter.

24             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there was a

25     mistranslation on page 42, line 15.  It says here "command and control,"

Page 18553

 1     whereas the witness was talking about the difference between command

 2     function and issuing orders.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is your position.  We have it on the record.

 4     Thank you.

 5             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, since we didn't discuss much the function of control,

 9     was it possible for you to control the jobs that you assigned

10     independently or were you able to control the jobs that were assigned to

11     be done by units by the commander?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, two terms:  "Control"

14     and "control," or "rukovodjenje" and "kontrola," are often translated

15     from B/C/S into English by using a single term, "control."  Therefore, we

16     have a slight confusion, and I believe that this is affecting both the

17     witness, the Chamber, and all of us who are following this because if

18     different terms are interpreted by one and the same word, which is

19     "control," and due to that we wouldn't be able to read the transcript

20     properly.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, I am afraid that we will waste time to

22     discuss that over and over again.  We have received some advice by the

23     translation unit, and we should be very much looking forward to overcome

24     that.  We can't resolve this problem in the courtroom, and everything is

25     taped in all languages, so that might be controlled later on.

Page 18554

 1             Mr. McCloskey.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  On another topic, Mr. President.  We see

 3     from this question where General Tolimir says:

 4             "And we didn't discuss much the function of control.  Was it

 5     possible for you to control the jobs that you assigned independently or

 6     were you able to control the jobs that were assigned to be done by units

 7     of the commander?"

 8             Can we -- so the question is not vague and is understandable,

 9     when asked such a question, can he make sure he's telling us is he asking

10     about directions to his staff within his sector, or is he asking about

11     directions or directives or orders to his functional subordinates, those

12     in the corps or the brigade.  It's a completely different answer, and

13     unless we know who he is issuing the directions to, we don't -- we

14     won't -- the answer won't make any sense.  And in that question you can't

15     tell whether it's his sector he's issuing these things to or a corps or a

16     brigade.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir may clarify this if he wants to do

18     it, otherwise you will have the opportunity to do that during your

19     cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey.

20             Judge Nyambe.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is not the first time in this trial that we

23     came across this problem.  If I remember correctly, we have had a similar

24     instance last year, sometime in early autumn.  We at that point in time

25     asked the translation unit to check and revise the transcript and the

Page 18555

 1     tapes again and provide us with the correct official translation.  We are

 2     not able to understand the B/C/S language.  Mr. Tolimir is not able to

 3     understand fully English.  Mr. Gajic is quite capable of English, but he

 4     is not an translation expert.  Mr. McCloskey is not able to understand

 5     B/C/S, although I was deeply impressed when you used these terms.

 6             The only way to resolve this is after this -- after court, to ask

 7     the Registry and the translation unit to check the tapes in B/C/S and to

 8     revise the transcript of the testimony of this witness and to get an

 9     official revised version of the transcript.  We, at least I, don't see

10     any other way to resolve this problem without a waste of time.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, there may be some changes in interpretation, so

15     please give us a precise answer about combat activities.  Did assistant

16     commanders control the business in their sectors in accordance with the

17     commander's decision, or are they entitled to change it?  Thank you.

18        A.   They cannot change it, but what they -- actually, what they

19     cannot change is the commander's order; whereas a decision is part of an

20     order.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let me repeat my question:  Can they change the

22     commander's decision or order?  Thank you.

23        A.   They cannot change either.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can they control the business or tasks in order to

25     achieve what the commander ordered?  Thank you.

Page 18556

 1        A.   They are experts for the implementation of the commander's order

 2     and decision in the best possible way.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that they can only engage in their

 4     professional business in the framework of the order or -- and -- given or

 5     task assigned to them?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Yes, they can only engage in their professional business, their

 7     professional tasks.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Before this correction, please tell us what the

 9     closest synonym is of the B/C/S term "rukovodjenje"?

10        A.   There is no complete synonym for "rukovodjenje."  I said at the

11     outset that sometimes "komandovanje" and "rukovodjenje," "command" and

12     "control," are synonyms.  They are compatible, but there are distinctions

13     that must be born in mind.  Whereas the term "rukovodjenje" has no

14     synonym.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is there a synonym for "komandovanje," "command"?

16        A.   There is a synonym.  Oftentimes the term "issuing orders" is

17     used.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Is there a synonym for "kontrola" that would

19     correspond to some of the activities carried out in the framework of

20     command and control?

21        A.   In the Serbian language there is no synonym for "kontrola."

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Let us not dwell on this any longer.

23     Please take a look at the schematic that you see in front of you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that's Exhibit 2227.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18557

 1        Q.   It shows the structure of the Main Staff and staff unit.

 2     Please --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Let me just put on the record that on page 48,

 4     lines 4 and 7, it should read "kontrola."  Now it's correct on the

 5     record.  I hope we all can agree.

 6             Now continue please, Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please see --

 8     or, rather, enlarge this schematic because it's very small on my screen.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which part do you want to have zoomed in?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The upper part.  We can see two

11     halves, but I am interested in the upper half because I am about to ask

12     questions about it.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Please take a look at the schematic and tell us what's missing

15     here.  Thank you.  Is any unit missing in this schematic?

16        A.   But which schematic?  I apologise.  And which part of it, the

17     upper half, the lower half, all of it?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The scheme is the same.  One, the upper part, in

19     B/C/S, the lower part in -- the lower, we can see here on the screen is

20     in English.  And Mr. Tolimir, as he did two hours ago, is asking you if

21     there is something missing.  I don't think that he is asking you about a

22     unit attached to the commander himself.  And you have it -- you have it

23     in hard copy in front of you, Mr. Skrbic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I start

25     answering?

Page 18558

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please do so.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because a lot is missing in this

 3     schematic.  I was in two minds as to whether this question referred to

 4     what we have already clarified.  I am referring to the level where we see

 5     the names of General Milovanovic, Gvero, Djukic, and the others.  Talking

 6     about this section, this is all correct.

 7             However, in the other horizontal part, where we read

 8     "1st Krajina Corps," "2nd Krajina Corps," and so on, at that level

 9     everything is all right, too.  But the level which on the left begins

10     with "67th Communications Regiment," it's in the lower left corner, this

11     regiment is an independent unit of the Main Staff of the VRS.  There is a

12     lot of information missing at that level, and if I may I can tell you

13     what.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I am not sure if Mr. Tolimir is referring to that

15     question or not.

16             You may continue and clarify your question, please.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I was asking what was

18     missing from this schematic because his job description included the

19     formation -- or, rather, the establishment structure.  So I asked him for

20     his opinion what was missing.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We all understood your question.  Perhaps you can

22     clarify it or make it a bit more specific so that the witness is not in a

23     position to explain everything but the specific part you are interested

24     in.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 18559

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, tell us which Main Staff units are missing here?

 3     Thank you.  I mean units subordinated to the commander.

 4        A.   The 89th Artillery Rocket Brigade is missing.  The 14th Logistics

 5     Base.  The 27th Logistics Base.  The 30th Logistics Base.  The

 6     35th Logistics Base.  Furthermore, the airforce institute ORAO is

 7     missing.  The technical maintenance institute Kosmos is missing.  Then

 8     the technical maintenance institute Hadzici.  The preventative medical

 9     institute is missing.  The military medical centre.

10             I am making a break for the interpreter to follow more easily.

11             The military hospital of the Main Staff is also missing.  The

12     410th Intelligence Centre.  Furthermore, the counter-intelligence group.

13     Then the military accounting centre.  Then the military bookkeeping

14     centre.  Then the information and propaganda centre.  The Manjaca

15     training centre is also missing.  The electronic data processing centre

16     is missing.  It wasn't fully active during the war, however, because the

17     technical conditions had not been created.  The central library of the

18     VRS.  The military orchestra.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is this the kind of information you

20     were asking for?  Then you should please carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This is

22     the information I wanted to elicit because this witness is most familiar

23     with the establishment structure of the VRS.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just carry on, please.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18560

 1        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, I interrupted you, and now I am going to ask you

 2     about some things that I find most interesting in connection with these

 3     Main Staff units.  What was the status of the 410th Intelligence Centre

 4     and the counter-intelligence group that you mentioned as missing from

 5     this schematic and which were subordinated to the commander?  Thank you.

 6             I can amend my question:  Who commanded and controlled these

 7     organisational units of the Main Staff, as far as you know?  Thank you.

 8        A.   The 410th Intelligence Centre and the counter-intelligence group

 9     were Main Staff institutes directly subordinate to the commander of the

10     Main Staff of the VRS.  That's why I listed them, Your Honours.  I

11     mentioned all of them to be comprehensive and accurate.  I apologise if

12     my answer was too lengthy.

13        Q.   Here is my question:  Could anybody command the 410th Centre and

14     the counter-intelligence group without the commander of the Main Staff

15     knowing about it?  Thank you.

16        A.   Without the knowledge and authorisation of the Main Staff

17     commander nobody could command these two units.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Main Staff commander -- or could the

19     Main Staff commander order the counter-intelligence group to take

20     measures against General Tolimir or General Salapura or anybody from the

21     intelligence and security administration without being duty-bound to

22     inform these people, nor being held accountable for that decision?

23        A.   Yes, he could issue such orders.  According to the rules and

24     regulations, he was not duty-bound to inform anybody about that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If he issued such orders to the counter-intelligence

Page 18561

 1     group to eavesdrop on Tolimir or anybody from his structure, did those

 2     who did it or could those who did it, were they allowed to inform the

 3     relevant persons about their activities?

 4        A.   I cannot explain it in this way.  I can only explain the process.

 5     When the commander orders the 410th Intelligence Centre and the

 6     counter-intelligence group to do something, then they have to carry out

 7     the task and they don't inform anybody about it but the commander of the

 8     Main Staff, because they are directly subordinated to him.  The specifics

 9     of their activities are not part of my expertise.  I don't know if he

10     ever issued such orders.  But if the commander of the Main Staff issues

11     them such orders, he can do so because that's part of his remit.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's please see the

14     65 ter document now.  2365 is the number, page 2 in the Serbian version

15     and page 1 in the English version.  Thank you.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, can you explain the nature of this document to us,

18     the nature of this chart?  What does it represent?

19        A.   This document is a working plan.  It contains all establishment

20     elements, establishment duties.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And is this document -- or was this document or plan

22     drawn up in your sector, and if so, who was behind it?  Which body or

23     which individual?  Thank you.

24        A.   This document was compiled in the sector at the -- that was under

25     my responsibility.  The document and information was compiled by

Page 18562

 1     officials, officers in my sector who were responsibility for personnel

 2     affairs.  But you can see that this is a document created on a computer.

 3     A computer expert couldn't work on a computer without the information

 4     from officers who were under me.  This document had the following

 5     purpose.  It was for me and for the commander of the Main Staff so that

 6     it could be seen which positions had been filled and which hadn't been

 7     filled.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.  Let's briefly have a look at this chart.

 9     And could you first tell me what sort of information is contained in the

10     chart?  Thank you.

11        A.   Your Honour, it's a little difficult for me to see.  Would it be

12     possible to enlarge the Serbian version?  Although I know these things by

13     heart to a large extent, but I wouldn't want to speak about it off the

14     top of my head.  That's fine.

15             May I, Your Honour?  I am starting from the top left-hand corner

16     where you can see the term "establishment."  Establishment -- under

17     "establishment" you have "position," and then in the next box "rank."

18     Under "rank" you have VES, you have that abbreviation which means

19     "military specialty."  And under the abbreviation VES you have the

20     letters PG, that's "payroll group."  That stands for "payroll group."

21     And to the right, I think it means "position."

22             In the next column you have "father's name," "family name."  And

23     then in the box further right you have the personal rank referred to and

24     VES and the payroll group.  In the next box to the right, it says:

25     "Appointed by order of."  And then in the next box to the right it says:

Page 18563

 1     "Registered in the following unit and institution."  And in the final box

 2     to the right it says:  "Remarks."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Does this working chart include all those who are

 4     occupying establishment positions in the Main Staff or in some other

 5     unit?

 6        A.   Here you have only the actual situation that is depicted, and

 7     those individuals in this chart were actually in the Main Staff.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Does this working chart correctly depict the

 9     establishment of the Main Staff of the VRS?

10        A.   This working chart was compiled on the basis of a book on

11     establishment.  I have referred to certain elements which cannot be

12     created, cannot be made up, and these elements were taken from a book on

13     establishment.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 23 now in

16     the e-court system.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in order to be of

19     assistance for the e-court, this entire chart hasn't been translated.

20     The translation is only partial, so I am afraid that the parts that we

21     are now going to be using are not contained in the translated documents

22     that we have in the e-court system.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So the B/C/S version can be enlarged.

24             Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18564

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you scroll up a bit so that I

 3     can see the part that you can't see on the screen right now.  Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you see the title where it says: "Sector for intelligence and

 6     security"?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   In this part of the work chart that has to do with the

 9     intelligence and security sector, can you find information on the

10     410th Centre?  Thank you.

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Could you tell us why no such information is to be found there?

13        A.   Because the 410th Intelligence Centre wasn't part of the

14     intelligence and security sector.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And is there any information here on the sabotage

16     unit and on the counter-intelligence group?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Why not?

19        A.   For the same reasons I have just mentioned, because they were not

20     part of the sector.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 99, please.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In the second column, above which it says: "The 66th Motorised

25     Protection Regiment," can you see that part?  "The 65th Regiment."

Page 18565

 1        A.   Your Honour, in the English it says "the 66th."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's already corrected, 65th.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do apologise.  Yes.  I

 4     can see the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  I do apologise, what was

 5     the question again?

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I haven't put it yet.  What was the status of this

 8     unit in the Main Staff?

 9        A.   The 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was a headquarter support

10     unit in the Main Staff, directly subordinate to the commander of the

11     Main Staff.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the status of the Guards Motorised

13     Brigade and who was it subordinated to?  Thank you.

14        A.   The 1st Guards Motorised Brigade is not a headquarter support

15     unit, but it is directly subordinated to the commander of the Main Staff.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 100.

18     Thank you.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Here we can see above the second column it says: "The

22     14th Logistics Base."  How many such bases were there and what was their

23     relationship with the logistics sector of the Main Staff?  Thank you.

24        A.   There were four bases.  I have already mentioned their names in

25     my previous answer.  These bases were also subordinated, directly

Page 18566

 1     subordinated to the commander of the Main Staff.  They weren't part of

 2     the corps; although, they assisted the corps when it came to the

 3     logistics, having obtained authorisation to do so from the commander of

 4     the Main Staff.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see now page 106.

 7     Thank you.  Thank you.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Above the second column, it says: "The 410th Intelligence

10     Centre."  Why can we find this in this part of the working chart?  Thank

11     you.

12        A.   Because it was a separate, independent institution of the

13     Main Staff of the VRS, which was directly subordinated to the commander.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did the commander exercise command and control over

15     this body?  Thank you.

16        A.   He did exercise command, that's for sure, but perhaps he

17     transferred certain authorities to the sector for intelligence and

18     security.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And could the intelligence and security sector

20     exercise command over the 410th Intelligence Centre?

21        A.   No, it couldn't.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 108 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter heard correctly.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 18567

 1        Q.   At the bottom of the page of this chart, it says: "The

 2     Counter-Intelligence Group."  My question is as follows -- well, now we

 3     have it there.  Why [Realtime transcript read in error "where"] can we

 4     find this in this part of the working chart?  If you could answer that

 5     question, please.

 6        A.   Because it was also an independent body within the Main Staff of

 7     the VRS.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell me whether the military prosecution

 9     was independent of the VRS, or was it an integral part of the VRS and

10     subordinated to someone?

11        A.   Since this is an independent body I did not want to mention it,

12     but within the Main Staff of the VRS there was also a military

13     prosecutor's office with a lawyer Supic at its head.  I don't know if he

14     was judge.  Nebojsa Supic.  In judicial terms it was independent.  It was

15     dependent on the Main Staff only in terms of administrative issues.  So

16     it was an independent organisation, and the commander couldn't exercise

17     command over the military prosecutor's office.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did the commander of the Main Staff and the command

19     of the Main Staff have to comply with their requests so that this body

20     could function properly?  Thank you.

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

23             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, I just need a clarification.  At page 58,

24     line 9 of today's transcript, the question was:

25             "At the bottom of the page of this chart, it says:

Page 18568

 1     'Counter-intelligence group.'  My question is:  Where can we find this in

 2     this part of the working chart?"

 3             And your answer is:

 4             "Because it was also an independent body of the VRS."

 5             The question doesn't follow.  Is it my understanding that that

 6     is:  "Why can we find this" rather than "where can we find this"?  I

 7     don't know if I am clear.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't say that it

 9     was part of the ministry.  That's number one.  And then I said that this

10     counter-intelligence group was an independent institution, directly

11     subordinated to the Main Staff commander.  And I think the question was

12     why is it entered in the chart as a separate entity, so you have separate

13     entities such as corps and all the other institutions that I enumerated.

14             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  So then we agreed that in line 10, the

15     beginning of the sentence should be "why" rather than "where"?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why do we see that they are

17     independent units, Your Honour?  I'm sorry, I didn't understand your

18     question.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I don't think it's your problem.  I think it's --

20     it should be a clarification from the interpretation.  Was it "where" or

21     was it "why"?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have line 9 back on the screen?  It

23     disappeared in the meantime.  Thank you.

24             May I assist, please.  Look at the screen.  Page 58, line 9 and

25     10.  I don't know if you can read and understand the English transcript.

Page 18569

 1     In line 10, it says:

 2             "Where can we find this in this part of the working chart?"

 3             And Judge Nyambe is suggesting the better understanding would be

 4     of this question:

 5             "Why can we find this in this part of the working chart?"

 6             What is your position?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Madam Judge is right.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

10             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't want to

11     interrupt, but Mr. Tolimir always asked why.  That was the Defence

12     question.  Of course, I don't always think it is necessary for me to get

13     up to have the record corrected because it is going to be revised anyway.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, could we just, for all our sakes, get an

17     answer to - I am not sure it was your question - but the general's

18     knowledge of English, just so we know?  Because these sorts of things can

19     be helpful, if we know.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry.  I didn't understand you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  You -- you basically, Your Honour, said:

22             "I don't know if you can read and understand English transcript."

23             But then he looked and he seems to have been able to answer the

24     question.  So can we just find out from the general how well he can speak

25     and -- or read English.

Page 18570

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you help us with that?  Are you able to

 2     understand and speak English and read English?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very little, Your Honours.  It's a

 4     very superficial knowledge that I have.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             We must have our second break now, and we will resume quarter

 7     past 6.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           --- On resuming at 6.19 p.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There were, again, some discussions about the

13     correct interpretation of some words in B/C/S, and I heard that the

14     interpreters would be willing to assist us today if we put the three

15     terms to them and to receive their interpretation in a very slow way.

16     And these had to do with "control" and "command."  And there were three

17     terms.

18             And, Mr. Tolimir, perhaps you can put these three terms we

19     discussed about, just on the record, one-by-one.

20             And after the first one, I would kindly ask the interpreters to

21     give us their official translation.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am

23     grateful to Judge Nyambe for having noticed the discrepancy between the

24     question and the answer, the interpretation thereof.

25             Can we please have Exhibit P227 admitted.

Page 18571

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you just say the word and put it

 2     on the record what you -- the B/C/S word for "command."

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Would

 4     you like me -- all right.  We are going to tell the witness the

 5     following.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please, we mentioned three terms here:  "Komandovanje,"

 8     "rukovodjenje," and "kontrola."  Are all those synonyms or not?  In

 9     command terms, do we have three different terms for three different

10     operations?  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, I would like to ask you if in

12     lines 12 and 13 of page 62, the Serbian words are recorded correctly?  If

13     you please have a look on the screen and this transcript.  Page 62,

14     lines 12 and 13.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the word "redak"

16     [phoen] means -- I mean I know what it means, but I don't know how it is

17     marked in the transcript.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please look at line 12.  The last word, is that

19     written correctly?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is correct, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the following words, too?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Rukovodjenje" and "kontrola."

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are they written correctly?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Now I would kindly ask the

Page 18572

 1     interpreters to help us with their understanding, their correct

 2     translation.  We start with "komandovanje."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  "Command."

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then the next word, "rukovodjenje."

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  In military terms it would be translated as

 6     "control," but in another context it can means things like "managing,"

 7     "running, "administering," et cetera.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And the third word is "kontrola."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  "Control."

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This is, I think, all what

11     we can do today for the sake of the transcript.  Would the parties agree?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I would like to ask the witness about the essence of these three

15     terms in the B/C/S, and I would like the interpreters to bear that in

16     mind.

17             Mr. Skrbic, command, does it mean issuing oral and written orders

18     to subordinate commands?  Can you please explain the meaning of this

19     word?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's leading.  It's a simple question and an

22     important one.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, what does the word "command" mean in

24     military terms?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The term "command" means the

Page 18573

 1     following:  Oral and written issuing of tasks to units through documents

 2     and orders.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  To avoid any

 4     misunderstanding, could you please explain the meaning of the word

 5     "rukovodjenje" in military terms?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The term "control" contains

 7     processes that pertain to managing various professional areas.  In that

 8     regard, plans, instructions, and directives, et cetera, can be issued.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And please help us with your

10     understanding of the word "kontrola" in military terms.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this word, "kontrola,"

12     I understand to mean the word that contains having an insight into the

13     implementation and performance of the tasks that have been ordered.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If we have P227 in

17     evidence, can we now look at another document.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, before we call up another document,

19     we have still on the screen 65 ter 2365.  I was told that this document

20     contains 108 pages, 15 of whom were translated into English.  I don't

21     know if you are going to tender it.  I suppose so.  We have seen on the

22     screen one page which was translated into English, and then page 23, 99,

23     100, 106, and 108.  These have no English translation yet and all the

24     others have no translation yet.  I would suggest, if you are tendering

25     this document, that we only translate these pages you have used in the

Page 18574

 1     courtroom.  They are part of your -- the evidence and your examination,

 2     and then we can mark these five pages for identification, pending

 3     translation.  What is your position?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as I am

 5     concerned I can accept that, but for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and

 6     everybody else who is going to refer to these pages and this document, I

 7     think that it would be advisable to have the whole document translated

 8     because that's an information that comes from the Main Staff and

 9     everybody who is interested in that will find it useful.  The Defence

10     believe this to be a crucial issue.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, 15 pages are already in English, and

12     I think they will be helpful for a good understanding of the context of

13     the whole document.  I am not quite sure if you really need a translation

14     of all the other pages because most of the entries in these tables are

15     understandable and were not used in this trial.

16             Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  And many of the entries are

18     handwritten and by the time it gets to CLSS it's very difficult for them

19     to make it.  And if -- we can get them better copies for the few pages.

20     But it's much like a phone book.  So the particular ones of interest,

21     certainly, but the whole thing I don't think is necessary.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's really a burden for the translation unit.

23     Would you agree to follow my proposal, Mr. Tolimir?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Mr. President, it is

25     difficult for me to agree.  The question was:  Why in this part of the

Page 18575

 1     flowchart do we find this or that unit.  And we cannot tell whether it's

 2     a logistics structure or something else, and the one who will look at it

 3     will wonder where this protection regiment belongs or this unit or that

 4     because they are all in the separate parts.  That's where they can be

 5     found and not in the first part.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not to waste time with the witness, we will

 7     postpone a decision on that and review the pages we haven't seen yet in

 8     the meantime so that we are in a position to discuss it more properly at

 9     a later stage.

10             Please continue with the next document, Mr. Tolimir.

11             Yes, we could MFI the whole document and come back to that

12     question later.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 2365 shall be

14     assigned Exhibit D341, marked for identification.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

18     please see Exhibit P2520.  Thank you.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now we can see the document.  This is document of the Main Staff

21     of the VRS.  The sector for organisation, mobilisation, and personal

22     affairs.  That was your sector.  It was drafted on 12 July 1995.  Did you

23     draft this document and forward it?  And when I say "you," I mean your

24     organ.  Thank you.

25        A.   Your Honours, I would like to draw your attention to the line

Page 18576

 1     saying:  "Assistant commander, Major-General Petar Skrbic."  That's me.

 2     I signed it.  And as to who drafted it, well, we would have to look at

 3     these initials that can poorly be seen in the original.  Oh, I seem to

 4     have done something wrong now.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can that part be zoomed in, please.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am confused by

 7     these letters.  It looks like a P and the following letter resembles a C,

 8     but I think I drafted it; whereas the other two initials must have been

 9     those of the person who typed it up.  I don't remember who that was.  But

10     anyway, I -- I'm the author of the document.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Skrbic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document that we cannot see now

14     because we zoomed in on the initials, could we have it back, please.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Does it say:

17             "With the utmost urgency order the Sarajevo and Zvornik MO

18     Secretariats to mobilise through the Pale, Sokolac, Rogatica, Visegrad,

19     Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Milici, Bratunac, and Zvornik MO departments all

20     buses available in these municipalities.

21             "At least 50 buses need to be mobilised and sent to Bratunac ...

22     by 1400 hours on 12 July 1995 to the Bratunac sports stadium."

23             And as you said, the signature block reads:

24             "Assistant commander, Major-General Petar Skrbic."

25             Thank you.  Please explain to the Trial Chamber the nature of

Page 18577

 1     this document.  Thank you.

 2        A.   Your Honour, the sentence that in the translation begins with the

 3     words "At least 50 buses," there is a date, but I believe that it -- the

 4     date really should be the 13th and not the 12th, because it's impossible

 5     to -- it's impossible otherwise.  No, it isn't legible even now.  But it

 6     must be the 13th.  I don't understand where this 12th in the English

 7     translation came from.  All the rest was read out correctly.  And the

 8     assistant who figures here is me.  The question was about what it all

 9     means.

10             This document is a request to the Ministry of Defence to mobilise

11     50 buses, and there is also information where the buses are needed and

12     when, once they are mobilised.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Skrbic, why did you send this document to the

14     Ministry of Defence?  Thank you.

15        A.   Because under the law, the mobilisation of personnel and materiel

16     is in the purview of the Ministry of Defence.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on the

18     lower left-hand corner of the document.  Thank you.  Thank you.  I

19     apologise, I made a mistake.  I meant the lower right-hand corner where

20     the seal is, the stamp.  Thank you.  Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, is this an incoming or an outgoing document?  Can you

23     tell by looking at the dates -- at the date and time stated here?  Thank

24     you.

25        A.   This is an outgoing document.  It emanated from the

Page 18578

 1     communications centre, the teleprinter operator who entered his personal

 2     information.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us from which location this cable was

 4     sent at?  Was it from the Main Staff or was it from a logistics location?

 5     Thank you.

 6        A.   This cable was sent from the communications centre, as I said,

 7     but from the teleprinter of the command post of logistics, because the

 8     centre where I --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sector where I worked did not

11     have such a device.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think that

14     there should be any major problems.  In line 11 of page 69, it says

15     "command post of the logistics."  I think it should be "rear command

16     post."

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the reason for your understanding?

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, because that's what

19     the witness said in Serbian, "pozadinsko komandno mesto," whereas this is

20     a bit different.  Logistics and what is called "pozadina" in Serbian need

21     not coincide necessarily.  As far as I was able to tell, the Serbian

22     phrase that the witness used in his answer is often translated in

23     documents shown here as "rear command post."

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, could you repeat, please, in Serbian

25     how you referred to this post?

Page 18579

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I called it "pozadinsko komandno

 2     mesto" which cannot be equaled to the logistical process because it's a

 3     command post in the rear, a rear command post.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the Serbian word, only

 5     the word itself, because it was not -- no, sorry, now we have a

 6     correction.  If you could please look at page 70, line 5, in the middle.

 7     "I called it," you see there, and then a word.  Can you confirm that this

 8     is written correctly or repeat it, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Pozadinsko."

10             THE INTERPRETER:  P-o-z-a-d-i-n-s-k-o.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But that was not all.  That was only the first of

12     three words.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The other two words were

14     "komandno mesto," "command post."

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it properly on the record.  Could

16     the interpreters please repeat the Serbian words, all the three of them.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  I'll spell:  "K-o-m-a-n-d-n-o."  Second word,

18     "m-e-s-t-o."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify this.  Can we be told what in the

22     stamp is the word that's crossed out with the two lines and what is the

23     word that's underlined?  Do they have anything to do with what he's

24     saying or something else?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Skrbic, could you please read the second line

Page 18580

 1     of the stamp?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand what you

 3     are pointing out to me, but I am unable to read it because the letters

 4     are not crisp and I wouldn't want to speculate.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, please tell us if the rear command post and the main

 9     command post of the Main Staff were at the same location?  Thank you.

10        A.   The main command post was at Crna Rijeka and the rear command

11     post was at Han Pijesak.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Was this telegram sent from the rear command post at

13     Han Pijesak?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at what is typed under the number

16     halfway through the document.  What does that mean?  Thank you.

17        A.   You mean what's printed under "sector"?  It says "Confidential

18     number 39/31/13-3/154," and below that it's "12 July 1995."

19        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us now what is printed to the right of the line

20     of the confidential number?

21        A.   It says "very urgent" in capital letters and double spaced.

22        Q.   Thank you.  What does it mean to encryption operators when they

23     get such a mark?

24        A.   The teleprinter operator doesn't ask anybody but skips all other

25     documents that are in process and immediately begins processing this

Page 18581

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 3             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 71, line 19, I

 4     think the number is not correct.  It should say "09/31 ..." and so on.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic, this kind of correction is a problem.

 6     I don't know what the witness said in Serbian.  I heard exactly what the

 7     interpreters said.  This is different from the English translation.  I

 8     can't properly read the original.  We all have to figure out at a later

 9     stage which is really the correct number.  But we have now your position

10     on the screen and on the record.

11             Mr. Tolimir, you may continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Skrbic, when you have a look at this telegram and its

15     contents, can you say on the basis of this telegram when it was sent, on

16     which date and at what time?  Thank you.

17        A.   Could you please scroll up a bit?  I can't see the whole

18     document.  I want to see the bottom part, the bottom page, and could you

19     enlarge it, please?  I can see it now.  It was sent on the 12th of July,

20     1995, at 9.50, 0950 hours.

21        Q.   Thank you.  My question is as follows:  Why did you draft this

22     request?  Thank you.

23        A.   Because an order was conveyed to me according to which it was

24     necessary to urgently request that the Ministry of Defence mobilise

25     buses.

Page 18582

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Were you aware of the purpose for which buses were to

 2     be mobilised?

 3        A.   The buses were to be used to transport people.  Naturally, it was

 4     important for me for these people to be mobilised and to arrive at the

 5     destinations they were supposed to arrive at on time.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us when you were informed that you

 7     should draft such a request to be forwarded to the Ministry of Defence?

 8     Thank you.

 9        A.   I received this information on the 11th of July, 1995, in the

10     evening hours.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain for the benefit of the

12     Trial Chamber what tasks you subsequently carried out, if you did carry

13     any tasks out?

14        A.   Yes, I did.  Having spoken to the person who informed me of this

15     need, I phoned the Ministry of Defence and I informed the deputy minister

16     of the request.  The name of the person in question was Momo Kovacevic.

17     He said, "Very well, general.  But please write this request.  Put this

18     request in writing for me."

19        Q.   Thank you.  Who has the right to request that buses be mobilised?

20     Thank you.

21        A.   In this case only the commander of the Main Staff of the VRS.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Can anyone in the Main Staff, apart from

23     the commander, request mobilisation of vehicles and can they submit this

24     request to the individuals you mentioned?  Thank you.

25        A.   No, not without the commander's authorisation.

Page 18583

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

 3     65 ter document, 0014 --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop, please.  We are approaching the end of

 5     today's hearing, and I would like to put a question to the witness first.

 6             Sir, you said that you -- an order was conveyed to you to contact

 7     the Ministry of Justice and to send or to forward this request to the

 8     Ministry of Justice.  Who informed you about this order?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot remember now.

10     I cannot remember who informed me of this order.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  By which means did you receive this information?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I received this

13     information over the phone, the number of which is 250, extension 250.

14     Only the commander can use this number or someone authorised by the

15     commander.  So I had no doubts about the fact that the information on

16     that request had been authorised by the commander.  I had no such doubts

17     because this extension number was, in fact, used.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you say "the commander," are you referring

19     to General Mladic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did this person who called you from this

22     extension number inform you that it was a decision by or an order by the

23     commander, Mladic?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 18584

 1             We are at the end of today's hearing.  We will continue tomorrow.

 2     Please be reminded that you have -- are not permitted to have any contact

 3     to either party during the break before we continue tomorrow morning.

 4             We will resume at 9.00 in this courtroom, and we will adjourn

 5     now.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 8                           7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the

 9                           31st day of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.