120215IT

Page 19260

1 shown to you now.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

3 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: SLAVKO CULIC

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make

7 yourself comfortable.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I state for the record that the transcript is now

10 working in e-court.

11 Sir, Mr. Tolimir is now putting questions to you during his

12 examination-in-chief, followed by the Prosecutor.

13 Mr. Tolimir, you have the floor.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examination by Mr. Tolimir:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Culic. May God-speed be with

17 you and may God's will be done in today's hearing and not necessarily

18 mine. I greet you on behalf of Defence. I would like to thank you for

19 being here.

20 Since we speak the same language, I would kindly ask you to look

21 at the screen in front of you and you will see that our words are being

22 transcribed. I would kindly ask you to start giving your answer only

23 when the transcript has stopped. I'll do the same.

24 After my every question I will say "thank you" which will be your

25 clue to start answering.

Page 19261

1 A. Thank you, general, sir. And I wish you all the best.

2 Q. My first question to you is this: Can you state your full name

3 for the record. Thank you.

4 A. My name is Slavko Culic. I was born on the 5th October, 1958, in

5 Glavica, Glamoc municipality.

6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us something about your military

7 education. Thank you.

8 A. I completed the secondary military school of the land army. I

9 specialised in infantry training. Thereafter I graduated from the

10 military academy of the land army. Again, I specialised in infantry

11 training. In the course of my service, I successfully completed training

12 courses and became company commander, battalion commander. I passed a

13 test to become major. And I also passed the entrance exam for the

14 command staff continuous education. During the course of my service, I

15 attended some other minor training courses in order to improve my skills

16 with regard to the aforementioned specialties.

17 Q. Thank you. When did you graduate from the secondary school?

18 When did you graduate from the academy? And when did you complete the

19 training courses for a company and battalion commanders, was that before

20 the war?

21 A. I graduated from the secondary military school in 1977 in

22 Sarajevo. I graduated from the military academy in 1980. In 1983 I

23 attended a training course for company commander, and I completed the

24 training course for battalion commander in 1987 and 1988. Which means

25 all the training courses I did happened before the war started in the

Page 19262

1 territory of the former Yugoslavia.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Can you tell us something about your

3 professional career before the year 1992. Thank you.

4 A. When I graduated from the military academy in 1980, I was

5 assigned to work in the military academy of the land army. I was the

6 commander of an education group of cadets. From 1983, I was transferred

7 to the Brijuni garrison. I was the commander of a navy infantry company

8 there.

9 From 1987 until 1990, I worked at the Mali Losinj garrison. I

10 was a company commander there. From 1990 to 1991, I worked at the

11 Pula garrison. I was the deputy commander and battalion commander.

12 When the war broke out in the territory of the

13 Republic of Croatia in 1991, I was transferred to the Niksic garrison

14 where I served as battalion commander as well. I stayed at the

15 Niksic garrison until May 1992; that is when I was transferred to the

16 5th Corps, to the Mrkonjic Grad garrison.

17 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, When did you become a

18 member of the Army of Republika Srpska?

19 A. It was on the 19th of May, 1992, when I reported to the

20 Army of Republika Srpska at the Banja Luka garrison, and from then I have

21 been a member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Thank you. What was your establishment post when you reported to

23 the Army of Republika Srpska? And then what happened during the war;

24 what establishment post did you occupy throughout the war?

25 A. When I reported to the Army of Republika Srpska at the Banja Luka

Page 19263

1 garrison, to be more precise, I was appointed the commander of what was

2 then the 1st Krajina Brigade at the Mrkonjic Grad garrison. I started

3 working on the 10th of June, 1992, and I remained in that position until

4 the end of the war and even after the end of the war.

5 Q. Thank you. After the end of the war, what was your establishment

6 post?

7 A. After the end of the war in the territory of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina, I was still the commander of an infantry brigade, and that

9 brigade was the 113th Brigade at the Mrkonjic Grad garrison. And I

10 remained at that position until the year 2003, and that's when I was

11 pensioned off.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. And now can you tell the Trial Chamber

13 whether you knew Zdravko Tolimir and since when have you known him?

14 A. I know General Zdravko Tolimir personally. I met him in 1992 and

15 I knew of him even before, for a simple reason. I knew that

16 General Tolimir worked in the same military district as I did. There

17 were meetings, there were briefings, and I heard the name during those

18 events. And finally, I personally met the general in 1992 when I arrived

19 in that area and when I took the position that I did.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Did you have any encounters with

21 General Tolimir during the war after that first personal contact, and how

22 often did you see him during the war?

23 A. During the war, from May 1992, I met General Zdravko Tolimir on

24 several occasions. Our encounters were during meetings, briefings,

25 inspection visits, debriefings. I can say that on several occasions, or

Page 19264

1 at least a dozen times, General Zdravko Tolimir inspected my unit and the

2 other units that were deployed in my area of responsibility. Those

3 meetings and encounters were always with a view to getting an insight

4 into the situation in the units in the territory of responsibility and

5 the issues that they were facing.

6 Depending on weather conditions, on time limitations, my

7 conversations with General Tolimir were always friendly, amicable.

8 Whatever we were requested to do was with a view to improving the

9 situation, our attitude towards the troops, our attitude towards the

10 officers, and there were all the other issues that were of some relevance

11 as a result of General Tolimir's inspection visits.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Let us now focus on the events that took

13 place in 1995, the events that are of some interest for this

14 Trial Chamber.

15 My question is this: In July 1995, did you have an occasion to

16 see any members of the Main Staff in the area of your responsibility or

17 elsewhere? Thank you. And I mean any of the members of the Main Staff.

18 A. Towards the end of July 1995 when the Croatian military offensive

19 began against the territory of Republika Srpska, there was an increased

20 presence of officers from the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

21 In my area of responsibility and beyond, I had an opportunity to meet

22 first of all with General Milan Gvero and his associates from the

23 superior command, as well as with General Tolimir and the late

24 General Djordje Djukic.

25 In my area of responsibility, while carrying out combat operation

Page 19265

1 along the Donji Vakuf-Travnik axis, the command was visited by

2 General Gvero, who inquired about the situation; and in late July, the

3 command post at the Jajce garrison, General Tolimir paid us a visit and

4 he was particularly interested to hear about the situation on the front

5 line and in the units there.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Can you tell us, can you remember, When

7 did you meet Gvero and when did you meet the other individuals that you

8 mentioned?

9 A. I saw General Gvero at the Jajce garrison and thereupon he

10 inspected my unit. And that was on the 27th of July. I remember this

11 date precisely because that was the day of the uprising of the people of

12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So rather jokingly we asked the general whether

13 he had come to congratulate us on this holy day and whether he brought

14 any presents with him.

15 Secondly, in those days, after the Croatian offensive on the

16 28th of July, my town of Glamoc fell, and these are the dates that help

17 me recall that General Gvero was there at the time. I remember that two

18 or three days later another group of officers from the Main Staff arrived

19 and I met with them at the Jajce garrison. Among them was

20 General Tolimir as well.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, Do you know where this group from

22 the Main Staff was located when they came to visit your area of

23 responsibility?

24 A. The group of officers from the Main Staff who had arrived in the

25 zone was billeted in a facility within the Kula barracks, after that at

Page 19266

1 the Petar Mrkonjic barracks, and they remained there all through 1995

2 until Mrkonjic Grad fell.

3 Q. For the record, can you tell us where the Kula Kasarna is

4 situated?

5 A. The Kula Kasarna, or, rather, the Petar Mrkonjic barracks, is

6 6 kilometres from Mrkonjic Grad on the Mrkonjic Grad-Kljuc road, between

7 the villages of Rudici and Jovandici.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber something about the

9 activities of your brigade and the axes that your brigade covered in

10 defending Republika Srpska?

11 A. My brigade, the 1st Sipovo Light Brigade, as it was named during

12 the war, carried out defence operations along two axes. The first one

13 was the Donji Vakuf-Travnik axis at the Komar pass. They carried out

14 defence operations along the front line which was about 30 kilometres

15 long. In total, we had approximately four battalions engaged in these

16 activities.

17 The second axis that the brigade carried out defence was the

18 Sipovo-Kupres axis, where we had a combat group which equalled, in

19 strength, three battalions. This combat group was called Janj combat

20 group. I have to tell you that following the fall of Glamoc and Grahovo

21 and after the enemy had reached the vicinity of Mrkonjic Grad, elements

22 from my brigade were engaged in the operation of closing the Mrkonjic

23 Grad-Kljuc road, and other on the Mrkonjic Grad-Jajce road.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, please, is the village of Bjelajac [Realtime

25 transcript read in error "Bilajac"] in your area, and can you tell us on

Page 19267

1 which road it is situated? Thank you.

2 A. The village of Bjelajce is seven kilometres from Mrkonjic Grad on

3 the Mrkonjic Grad-Banja Luka road, and it was approximately three

4 kilometres within the territory of the forces defending Mrkonjic Grad.

5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, From your superiors who were holding

6 these axes, did you have any information that in the territory of the

7 village Bjelajce there were refugees from Sipovo and Glamoc?

8 A. Well, I personally had an opportunity to see that the civilians

9 who left Glamoc on the 27th and the 28th were provided accommodation in

10 the general area of Mrkonjic Grad municipality, including at the school

11 in Bjelajce. I know about that because all of my folks also fled Glamoc

12 and I was keen to find out whether they were alive and well and if I

13 could provide some assistance to them.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, as for the other people who hailed from Glamoc,

15 did they come to Bilajac in order to see the refugees from their native

16 town?

17 A. Of course. Everyone feels a strong pain when it comes to their

18 native towns or villages, especially if information was scarce as to

19 their whereabouts. Everybody wanted to offer a helping hand, not only to

20 us who came from Glamoc, but to everybody else. I clearly remember that

21 we discussed the issues of how we could help all these refugees.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, just for the sake of the record:

23 Mr. Culic, could you please repeat the name of that village you

24 are talking about and spell it, please, letter by letter.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can do that.

Page 19268

1 B-j-e-l-a-j-c-e.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We had some different

3 spelling on the record. Thank you very much.

4 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You just said that you had meetings and that you discussed how to

8 help the people. With whom did you meet in that village?

9 A. Among others there were lots of people from the corps command and

10 people from the Main Staff. The first one with whom I had a meeting was

11 the late General Djukic, and after that I met with you and we had a

12 discussion. I was particularly interested in the condition of the

13 combatants in the area because all of my next of kin was in the unit that

14 was defending Glamoc.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, Can you remember approximately when

16 you and I met in Bjelajce?

17 A. I think that was three or four days after my meeting with

18 General Gvero, and I think that that was on or about the 30th of July.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have Exhibit P2458,

21 page 2. Thank you. It's page 3 in English.

22 Thank you, Aleksandar.

23 [Microphone not activated]

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 19269

1 Q. Mr. Culic, on page 2 we see the title: "The Bosansko Grahovo and

2 Glamoc area." And then look at paragraph 3 and I'm going to quote it.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I would appreciate if we could see

4 first the first page so that we know about the document itself. Then we

5 form a better understanding. We want to see both first pages.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we first see page

7 number 1 in both versions.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, perhaps you can briefly introduce

9 this document.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is

11 a document produced by the intelligence administration of the Croatian

12 Army entitled: "Intelligence Report," of 30th of July, 1995. It was

13 printed in Zagreb on the 31st July, 1995, in Zagreb. And it describes

14 the state and activities of the SVK, VRS, and VJ. They produce such

15 intelligence reports on a daily-basis, and in this report they say the

16 following.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And I quote --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we can go to the pages 2, respectively, and

20 3. Thank you for this introduction.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Culic, as you can see in this chapter entitled "The Bosansko

23 Grahovo and Glamoc area," the third paragraph reads:

24 "During the day General Tolimir and General Djukic from the VRS

25 Main Staff have been sent to the Grahovo Glamoc front line in order to

Page 19270

1 consolidate the situation and undertake measures to consolidate the

2 forces. To this purpose, a special team, ZM," means "joint command,"

3 "will be set up at Drvar --"

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please move to the next page in English.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. "... which will be led by General Milovanovic following the

8 directive of M. Karadzic," although it should read "R. Karadzic."

9 My question is this: Since this document that comes from the

10 Croatian Army was drafted on the 31st, as I said earlier, can you tell me

11 if this period, according to what you know, was the period when

12 General Tolimir was in the area of your brigade or, more precisely, along

13 the axis where you carried out your activities?

14 A. I think that the time-frame is correct and I think that was

15 exactly the period when you were in the area of Mrkonjic Grad.

16 Q. Thank you. Please tell us the exact place where we met, and you

17 said that we did meet; tell us where it was.

18 A. We met for the first time on that day at Bjelajce and then on the

19 same evening in Jajce at the division command post. I can also tell you

20 that at the time my command post was at the Jajce garrison and so was the

21 division command post. The two were only a hundred metres apart.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Tell the Trial Chamber some more about

23 your knowledge about General Tolimir's movements from the time when you

24 met until the end of the war, as far as you know. Thank you.

25 A. I had the opportunity to meet General Ratko [as interpreted]

Page 19271

1 Tolimir at least ten or 15 times in those areas. And those were both

2 official and unofficial meetings, or encounters.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Culic, Mr. Culic. I just want to clarify one

4 matter. You said:

5 "We met for the first time on that day in Bjelajce ..."

6 Which day was it? Do you recall the date?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said about three

8 days after the 27th, so it would have been on the 30th or 31st. I think

9 it was the 30th, though.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please continue with your

11 answer to Mr. Tolimir.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since at that time the situation on

13 the front line was extremely bad and difficult because the offensive of

14 the Croatian Army and the BH Army had begun along all axes, it was

15 necessary to take all organisational measures and other measures for the

16 system of command and control and combat readiness that had been

17 disrupted by the actions of the NATO aeroplanes. And command was very

18 difficult, so we had to restore that system back to normal. Under these

19 conditions, all the measures that the units and commands took to stop the

20 offensive and repel the attack, we had debriefings each evening and even

21 earlier than the evening when it was necessary. There were also meetings

22 for the purpose of analysis. Those meetings were held at the division

23 command. Very often somebody from the Main Staff organs would be present

24 as well.

25 Apart from that, on the ground, that is, on the battle-field, it

Page 19272

1 was necessary to assess the situation in the units and take adequate

2 measures. Since the defence system, the old defence system, had been

3 disrupted, adequate measures were taken by the Main Staff officers or,

4 rather, the forward command post of the Main Staff headed by

5 General Milovanovic.

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Culic, you said that some measures were being

8 taken. Here's my question: Did any officer from the Main Staff command

9 any subordinate unit in the zone of responsibility of your corps? Thank

10 you.

11 A. I must be very clear about this. The exclusive right to command

12 and take decisions was with us, commanders. After the meetings and

13 analyses at command level, we received clear and precise orders from the

14 superior command, that is, the division command. So those officers

15 didn't command our units. They were only there to assess the situation

16 from their level and set tasks to the units through the testimony of

17 command and control, and it's clear how that went: by way of orders.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you have information if the Main Staff, or, more

19 precisely, General Tolimir, stayed in Western Bosnia for a longer period

20 of time?

21 A. Yes. I've already said that I had the opportunity to meet him

22 rather often. Secondly, we met a couple of times at the front line while

23 defending Mrkonjic Grad or actually immediately before the fall of that

24 town, and I'm talking about a period of at least a month or two. And we

25 must have met some ten or 15 times at least. But even when we didn't

Page 19273

1 meet for a couple of days, I did have such information, because we,

2 brigade commanders, exchanged information about things. So I did have

3 information whether anybody was going to negotiations, or not, and so on.

4 I was able to learn that from the media.

5 Q. Thank you. I apologise. Not everything was recorded when I

6 started speaking.

7 Did you know where the forward command post of the Main Staff in

8 that part of your zone was?

9 A. I've already said that the forward command post was where I was,

10 at Kula, and I knew, roughly, where they were and how things happened.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to make a correction for the record.

12 Page 14, line 9 -- no, sorry, 8, the word "testimony" should be replaced

13 by "system."

14 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, can you tell us anything about the situation on the ground

18 from August until the end of November in the zone where your unit was

19 active in 1995? Thank you.

20 A. From July till October 1995, the situation at the front was

21 extremely difficult for two reasons: One, the Croatian Army and the

22 BH army had launched their offensive ; and two, NATO forces and the

23 rapid-reaction forces had also launched their actions. They started

24 bombing our command posts and communications hubs of the VRS. In such a

25 situation which was bad both for the VRS and my unit, it was necessary to

Page 19274

1 keep the territory, preserve the unit, and certainly the population, too.

2 In this time-period, following the loss of some territories from

3 which the Serbian population was expelled, Glamoc, Grahovo - after that,

4 Drvar, Sipovo, Kupres, Donji Vakuf, Kljuc, and finally Mrkonjic Grad - a

5 less favourable balance of forces came about. From that time-period,

6 from July until October or until the signing of the Dayton Accord, my

7 unit, like other units that were engaged in the defence of those areas,

8 were in a very unfavourable tactical position.

9 At times, command was very difficult because our radio relay hubs

10 had been destroyed. NATO planes had bombed that facility at

11 Rajakovo Brdo near Mrkonjic Grad. Besides, the units were always in an

12 unfavourable position because there was an imminent threat of

13 air-strikes. In such a situation, everybody made an all-out effort, both

14 the rank and file and the officers, to stop the enemy and engage in

15 active defence.

16 During that time-period, we were able, owing to the great efforts

17 of the fighters of the VRS, to stop the advance. And we slowed down the

18 attack of the HV and the BH army after some 20 or 30 days.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about the losses that the

20 population incurred during the NATO air-strikes and the actions of the

21 rapid-reaction forces as well as those of the HV and the BH army? Thank

22 you.

23 A. Yes. I personally have such information, among other things

24 because I was in that area even after the war and I was able to see that

25 there were victims, because while that -- when that radio relay hub was

Page 19275

1 attacked, four soldiers got killed in 1995. After that, upon the signing

2 of the Dayton Accord and the return of the population to that area, we

3 found over 180 killed civilians in Mrkonjic Grad municipality alone. But

4 there were more in the areas of Sipovo, Glamoc, Drvar, and other places

5 that had been occupied by the HV forces.

6 Q. Thank you. Is it logical, then, for the Main Staff to have

7 forward command posts in an area where the aggression of third countries

8 and NATO forces against the RS was being slowed down and was that one of

9 the reasons why these officers were in Western Bosnia where your brigade

10 and your corps were?

11 A. Yes. Clearly the Main Staff assessed the situation, and it was

12 the gravity of the situation in the theater of the Western Krajina, where

13 there was an aggression of the HV forces, was the reason why they went

14 where things were worst. And I am sure that there was a command post

15 there.

16 Q. Thank you. In your previous answer you mentioned a relay station

17 that was bombed by NATO planes. You mentioned its name. But do say next

18 to which facility it was and who was staying at that facility. Which

19 soldiers are belonging to which unit?

20 A. I mentioned a short while ago that one of the facilities targeted

21 by NATO planes was the radio relay hub of Rajak, which was on

22 Rajakovo Brdo, which is some 500 metres away from the

23 Petar Mrkonjic barracks.

24 Q. Thank you. Was there a forward command post of the Main Staff in

25 that barracks?

Page 19276

1 A. Yes. There was also a forward command post of the Main Staff,

2 which was probably one of the potential targets.

3 Q. Thank you. Since you were involved in these events, and you have

4 also explained who else was involved, did you during that period and

5 later understand who was attacked there and who was an ally in that

6 attack and in the combat?

7 A. Well, yes, clearly everybody of us was clear about the fact that

8 the Croatian Army had entered and occupied a part of the territory. Also

9 that the BH army had an ally in the NATO forces that bombed us, not only

10 the Croatian Army as an ally.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. During the war, since you joined the VRS,

12 you were a brigade commander all the time; right?

13 A. Yes. That is correct. I was brigade commander for 11 years.

14 Q. Thank you. Since you were brigade commander, can you tell us

15 whether there were rules and regulations in force in the brigade that the

16 officers, both active-duty and reserve officers, had to abide by?

17 A. Upon my joining of the VRS, the Republika Srpska and its army had

18 adopted the rules and regulations that were in force in the

19 Yugoslav People's Army. Everything that had been set out in the rules

20 and regulations governing the activities of the Yugoslav People's Army.

21 I know that for sure because I was a member of the JNA, too, and I know

22 that all the rules and regulations governing our combat activities were

23 those that were in force in the JNA as well.

24 Q. Thank you. Later on, during the war, did we also adopt rules

25 from any of the other republics of the former Yugoslavia?

Page 19277

1 A. No, we did not receive rules from any of the other republics.

2 However, as the Army of Republika Srpska, whenever a rule or a regulation

3 had to be amended, for example, if we are talking about the dress code,

4 and so on and so forth, we would receive such an amendment, an amendment

5 of the dress code. And those amendments became an integral part of the

6 rule that was already in force, and all our members were duty-bound to

7 comply with the amendments of that sort.

8 Q. Did the amendments in question apply only to your dress code or

9 perhaps even to combat activities and combat operations? Thank you.

10 A. I believe that only the -- the only thing that happened was that

11 the Army of Republika Srpska adapted to the situation at hand in keeping

12 with the strategy and plans of the use of units that were drafted based

13 on the rules for the use of brigades, corps, and so on and so forth.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I stopped you again because you started too

15 early. Please repeat your next question.

16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Culic, for the record, could you please tell us, What combat

18 rules are we talking about?

19 A. We're talking about the combat rules of the former JNA. We're

20 talking about combat rules for the infantry battalions, infantry

21 brigades, and other instructions about the work of the command staffs and

22 institutions.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Thank you. Do you know who in your

24 brigade commanded the military police, for example? Thank you.

25 A. Your Honours, in my brigade I was in command of the military

Page 19278

1 police. I was in command of all our -- my units, including the military

2 police.

3 Q. Thank you. For the record, please tell us, Was the security

4 organ in a position to command the military police in your brigade or in

5 any other brigade?

6 A. Well, you see, in our organisational structure we had security

7 organs who were our immediately subordinated officers. Their

8 professional element and the work that they did - and that was provided

9 for by the rules of the work of organs and services - envisaged that in

10 the process of decision-making, those professional organs proposed the

11 ways how certain tasks would be carried out. However, the exclusive

12 right of command and use was in the hand of the commander.

13 As you know, whenever a task was distributed, the situation would

14 be assessed and the decision-making process followed. During that

15 process, every organ had the right to suggest how the task should be

16 carried out. Once the proposals were looked at, the commander was the

17 one who made the final decision, irrespective of the fact whether the

18 proposal was proposed by any of the organs, because the commander was

19 responsible for his decision and he had the exclusive right to command

20 and control. And I can say for a fact that in my brigade, or any other

21 brigade, nobody else had the right to command, and that included a

22 security organ or any other organ. The only person who could command was

23 the brigade commander.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Who was in command of your security organ

25 in your brigade?

Page 19279

1 A. I was the one who commanded my security organ. And that was the

2 exclusive right of the commander.

3 Q. Thank you. Did your brigade also have an intelligence organ in

4 addition to the security organ?

5 A. In addition to the security organ who was subordinated to me as

6 the commander there was also an intelligence organ, but he was the

7 assistant Chief of Staff for intelligence, which means that he sent his

8 proposals and he reported to the Chief of Staff.

9 Q. Can you please tell us, Who was the Chief of Staff? Was that

10 somebody outside of the brigade or in your brigade?

11 A. He was the assistant of my own Chief of Staff for intelligence.

12 And if he was his assistant, it was only normal that he reported to him

13 about his tasks. So not to any other Chief of Staff.

14 Q. Your security organ and your intelligence organ, could they

15 receive orders from the security organ of your superior command, for

16 example? Thank you.

17 A. Well, you see, the rules were very clear. The system of command

18 and control was very clear. All the orders followed that system of

19 command. When it came to certain information, intelligence, certain

20 analyses, certain issues pertaining to professional and specialist

21 training, obviously the organ of the superior command would send that

22 mail to us, and then that organ informed us about, for example, the

23 activities of the enemy, and everything else that did not interfere with

24 the system of command and control. However, primarily, as I have just

25 told, you security organs did not receive orders from the superior

Page 19280

1 security organs. They were their superiors only in terms of professional

2 education.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Culic, can you tell us, for the record, Was

4 Tolimir in a position to command the security organ and the intelligence

5 organ in your brigade?

6 A. Well, knowing General Tolimir personally, I have to be very

7 clear: He never requested to do that. He never did that because he was

8 very familiar with the system of control and command and he would not

9 have wanted to humiliate either me or any other commander by giving

10 orders to his security or intelligence organs. I know personally that

11 General Tolimir, when he visited my unit on several occasions before

12 1995, he even spent several nights with my unit. He never wanted to

13 impose himself as an officer from the Main Staff who had the last say.

14 He always showed understanding for us. He always wanted to listen to us,

15 to hear us out, and to propose the best measures. And all the measures

16 that were undertaken in order to implement certain tasks were implemented

17 pursuant to the orders and commands of the superior command.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic. Thank you for having come to testify in

19 these proceedings. I thank you for everything. I thank you. I wish you

20 God-speed in your future life and work.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

22 further questions for this witness. We have brought our

23 cross-examination to an end -- I apologise, it was an

24 examination-in-chief.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

Page 19283

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

2 Q. Mr. Culic, good morning to you. My name is Rupert Elderkin, and

3 I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of the Office of the

4 Prosecutor.

5 I want first, please, to cover your knowledge of

6 General Tolimir's whereabouts during the period of the fighting in the

7 Krajina in the summer of 1995.

8 You've told us that the first time that you met General Tolimir

9 in July of 1995 was in Bjelajce and that was on the 30th or the

10 31st of July; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said that you met General Tolimir on about ten to

13 15 occasions during the course of the defence of the Krajina; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you also said that General Tolimir remained in the Krajina

17 area throughout that period until at least the fall of Mrkonjic Grad.

18 Does that correctly reflect what you've testified to this morning,

19 Mr. Culic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Are you aware that General Tolimir travelled away from the

22 Krajina on a number of occasions during August, September, and

23 October of 1995?

24 A. I know that from time to time he would go to attend meetings,

25 negotiations, and things like that. I don't know how long he stayed

Page 19284

1 there, but I know that he returned to the area. At the end of the day,

2 when it comes to his departures and negotiations with the enemy side or

3 NATO, we could read about that in newspapers. It was covered by the

4 media extensively.

5 Q. But there is no specific reason why you personally would have

6 known about General Tolimir's whereabouts day by day except on the

7 occasions when you met him personally in the Krajina; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And I just want to clarify the time-frame when you say that

10 General Tolimir remained, generally, in the Krajina area. You said it

11 was until around the fall of Mrkonjic Grad. Can you please tell us on

12 what date Mrkonjic Grad fell, as best you can remember?

13 A. Mrkonjic fell sometime in October 1995, in the first half of

14 October 1995.

15 Q. Do you recall, when was the last time that you met

16 General Tolimir, either a date, or, if not, do you recall the

17 circumstances of your last meeting?

18 A. Well, I remember that I saw him between Rogolji village and

19 Mrkonjic Grad on the road from Mrkonjic Grad to Kljuc. I met with

20 General Tolimir and General Gvero late in the evening. I was there

21 because I headed a unit in the direction of Mrkonjic Grad. I remember

22 that it was the beginning of October, sometime around the 6th, 7th, or

23 perhaps the 10th of October, in any case it was in the first half of

24 October.

25 Q. So to be clear: The ten to 15 times that you met General Tolimir

Page 19285

1 were between around the 30th or 31st of July and sometime up to the

2 beginning or middle of October; is that right?

3 A. Yes. Mid-October.

4 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, as a means to save time in covering

5 questions about General Tolimir's whereabouts during this period, I have

6 prepared and have loaded into e-court a summary of the dates and the

7 corresponding evidence the Prosecution has concerning General Tolimir's

8 presence at locations outside the Krajina region. This isn't a piece of

9 evidence. It's something that I've prepared myself but as a means to

10 present more simply to the witness and to Your Honours what evidence we

11 have about General Tolimir's whereabouts in August through October.

12 I'd ask, with your leave, that I could show this to the witness

13 and the Court. It's something that we gave to the Defence at the

14 beginning of this week, and, of course, I'd only go ahead with your and

15 their agreement, but I believe it would be an efficient means to proceed,

16 rather than going through the binder of documents I have one by one. It

17 bears 65 ter number, provisionally, 7619, and I also have hard copies if

18 that would assist people more easily, both in English and B/C/S.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, could you explain a bit further the

20 purpose of putting this to this witness?

21 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, the witness has told us that he

22 generally understood General Tolimir to be in the Krajina area, obviously

23 away from Eastern Bosnia, away from the VRS Main Staff, throughout the

24 period in question, and in the 65 ter summary for this witness it was

25 indicated that this evidence should be relevant to certain paragraphs of

Page 19286

1 our indictment - I think 23 and 23.1 - which concern other events that

2 were happening at that same time.

3 The evidence that I would like to take the witness through is to

4 ask the witness whether he would agree that on many occasions

5 General Tolimir did, in fact, travel to Eastern Bosnia, attend meetings

6 with various significant individuals, including, on many occasions, with

7 General Mladic and others, and that took him away from the Krajina and

8 back to areas of Eastern Bosnia that are geographically relevant,

9 obviously, to our indictment.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understood the testimony of this witness that

11 he only was able to tell us about his meetings with General Tolimir

12 between the 30th of July and, at the latest, 10th of October, 1995. Is

13 this a period which is relevant to our indictment?

14 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, the period in question is that which

15 is when the reburial operation was under way in Eastern Bosnia, in the

16 Zvornik and Bratunac municipalities. It's also the period when certain

17 of the men who were captured after the fall of Zepa were incarcerated.

18 And then during August and September those men were killed.

19 If I understand General Tolimir's position in leading this

20 evidence, he seems to be seeking to establish his distance from those

21 events. If not, then I wouldn't see any relevance in having called this

22 witness to testify about his whereabouts in that time-period. If the

23 evidence in chief about his whereabouts is relevant, then I would submit

24 that on cross-examination it's both necessary and proper for the

25 Prosecution to be able to go into those questions of whereabouts in that

Page 19287

1 period. But if Your Honours consider that General Tolimir's whereabouts

2 is not in issue when considering the events in the indictment of August,

3 September, October, in terms of the reburials and the foreseeable

4 killings, then it's not a subject that, obviously, I would need to cover

5 on cross-examination.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not what I said, but I just wanted to

7 clarify your position on that.

8 Mr. Tolimir, what is your position in respect to the request of

9 Mr. Elderkin?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

11 not used this witness to prove exactly where General Tolimir was on each

12 and every day. We just discussed those periods when he saw us, when he

13 heard that we were in his area of responsibility, in the area of his

14 responsibility of his corps or brigade. We don't want -- if Mr. Elderkin

15 has proof that we participated in the events, that we were in the area at

16 the time, we invite Mr. Elderkin to present them for the benefit of the

17 Court.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is

21 satisfied with this explanation of Mr. Elderkin. If it relates to the

22 time-period 30th of July up to 6 -- no, 10th of October, 1995. That is

23 the period the witness testified about and was examined by Mr. Tolimir.

24 We can do that after the first break.

25 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I'd ask,

Page 19288

1 simply because of the way I prepared the document itself - it contains

2 entries for the last three dates in October which are the -- well, two

3 dates, sorry, 14th and 27th, which appear on the sheet, because I've

4 prepared it through to the end of October - if I were to restrict myself

5 up to the 10th of October, would it be acceptable, still, to use the same

6 document? Otherwise, during the break I can try to retype this and load

7 a new copy into e-court. But if we can just ignore the end of the

8 page --

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are only referring to evidence which is

10 admitted during this trial. That -- therefore, I don't have a problem

11 with that, if you restrict your examination to the period we talked

12 about.

13 MR. ELDERKIN: And to be absolutely clear, Your Honours: There

14 are some items on here which bear 65 ter numbers which have not yet been

15 admitted but which I have on my list to use with this witness. But I

16 would certainly restrict myself to the indicated period.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We must have our first

18 break now, and we will resume five minutes past 11.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Elderkin. You may proceed as discussed

22 before the break.

23 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, if it's agreeable, I would propose

24 handing out hard copies of this reference list because that way I can

25 leave it on people's desks while we work alongside other documents in

Page 19289

1 e-court.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, with the assistance of the Court Usher.

3 Would it be helpful to put one copy on the ELMO?

4 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, that is possible. I've handed up

5 four copies for the Bench, also for the Legal Officer. Unfortunately, I

6 don't have a fifth for the ELMO. So if I could ask to keep one of the

7 four or simply that everyone has one. There are three in B/C/S for the

8 witness, Mr. Tolimir, and Mr. Gajic. So I think that there's no need to

9 put it on the ELMO as well.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. Please go ahead.

11 MR. ELDERKIN:

12 Q. Mr. Culic, in a moment I'm going to ask you about various times

13 when General Tolimir was outside the Krajina. But since you told us the

14 period in which he remained in your area of the Krajina, and that was

15 until sometime in mid-October --

16 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like, please, to see Exhibit D264.

17 Q. -- and just confirm with you your understanding until the time

18 until which General Tolimir remained in your area and what was he doing

19 when he was there.

20 Now, on the first page of this document, Mr. Culic, you can see

21 that this is an order issued by the Main Staff of the VRS, and it's an

22 order to the corps level, and its subject is: "Blocking the Enemy

23 Offensive on the Western Republika Srpska Front."

24 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could go, please, down to the bottom of

25 the page in B/C/S.

Page 19290

1 Q. I think we can see the start of various instructions under point

2 number 5. And this item starts by saying:

3 "a)

4 "Main Staff of the VRS to direct the entire operation, engaging

5 the following commanding officers ..."

6 Sir, do you see that text at the bottom of the page?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In fact, sir, you saw this document before when you testified in

9 the Popovic case. Do you recall that?

10 A. I may have seen it. I'm not sure.

11 Q. You agree that at point 5(a) there is reference to engaging

12 certain commanding officers, at the bottom of the page, sir?

13 A. That's the only thing that I can see.

14 MR. ELDERKIN: Then can we go to the next page, please, in the

15 B/C/S.

16 Q. You see at the bottom that it's an order from General Mladic; do

17 you see that, sir, at the type-signature at the bottom?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at the top of the page, please. And what

20 you can see here, by each dash, is a reference to different members,

21 different generals of the VRS Main Staff, and each is assigned specific

22 tasks. So, for example, the first is an assignment for the Chief of

23 Staff, and that's General Milovanovic. Do you see that right at the top

24 of the page, sir?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19291

1 Q. Now, if we go down to the sixth, I think, dash, you should be

2 able to see a reference to General Tolimir. And you see that just before

3 the gap in the paragraph.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And there it reads, for General Tolimir's assignment --

6 A. [No interpretation]

7 Q. -- "Assistant commander for intelligence and security,

8 Major General Zdravko Tolimir co-ordinates action by the 30th PD,

9 defending the axis Mrkonjic Grad - village of Trijebovo - village of

10 Stricici and is responsible for the defence of the axis."

11 Do you see that, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you agree that at the beginning of this point in the order,

14 point 5, General Mladic was referring to the following officers as

15 commanding officers, because this operation, this defence, was to be

16 supervised and overseen by the Main Staff. That's what it says in the

17 document, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And General Tolimir's assignment here is to lead and to be

20 responsible for defence on the axis mentioned, beginning with

21 Mrkonjic Grad.

22 Do you agree with that?

23 A. Gentlemen, General Tolimir did not lead the operation. He was

24 there merely as a representative of the command in order to co-ordinate

25 the work to the extent that it was necessary on the battle-field to

Page 19292

1 achieve co-ordinated actions. In command were the commander of the

2 division and the commander of the corps.

3 Q. General Mladic is specifically assigning General Tolimir and

4 making him responsible for the defence of the mentioned axis; is that

5 right? He's responsible for it according to this document.

6 A. Your Honours, it clearly says here in the order that he is to

7 co-ordinate the work. There is no responsibility of his. Responsibility

8 lies with the unit commanders.

9 Q. Sir, you mentioned earlier that Main Staff officers, including

10 General Gvero, General Tolimir, visited the Krajina from the end of July

11 onwards. You said that they inspected your unit. Almost all of the

12 Main Staff generals came over to the Krajina when the Croatian offensive

13 started, didn't they?

14 A. Well, I don't know if all of them, but most of them, yes.

15 Q. And the reason for bringing the Main Staff generals to the

16 Krajina was to strengthen and steer the defence that was being put up by

17 the VRS forces in that area. They were there because it was a serious

18 situation and these were serious generals who had to be responsible for

19 their defence of the Republika Srpska territory. That's right, isn't it?

20 A. As I said earlier, within the system of command and control it is

21 the commander who is responsible for the implementation of decisions,

22 whereas the organs of the superior command only assist. You can also see

23 in this order that he is to co-ordinate the actions of the forces on that

24 axis where the defence operation for Mrkonjic and access is to

25 Banja Luka, and there were several units and several corps engaged in

Page 19293

1 that operation, which means that co-ordination was necessary in terms of

2 the timing and the method of carrying out tasks.

3 I don't know if I was clear enough.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Culic, you were referring to the word

5 "co-ordinates," but the end of the sentence reads as follow:

6 "... and is responsible for the defence of the axis."

7 What is your understanding of the word "responsible" in that

8 context?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand it to be that he is

10 responsible for co-ordination and organisation of the forces that are

11 engaged in the defence. Because, along these axes leading to

12 Mrkonjic Grad and Banja Luka, there were units from other organic

13 formations and that necessitated a co-ordinated action in temporal and

14 spatial terms and that is where their responsibility lie. In the course

15 of carrying out each specific task, whether it be defence or

16 reconnaissance or whatever, those who are responsible for these tasks are

17 unit commanders.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

19 Mr. Elderkin.

20 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Could we please see 65 ter number 397. First of all just the

22 front page so we can identify that document.

23 Q. Mr. Culic, while this is going to come up in front of you in

24 e-court, let me tell you that this is the VRS Main Staff analysis of the

25 combat readiness of the army in 1992. So from earlier in the war.

Page 19294

1 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'd like, please, to go to page 160, 1-6-0, in

2 English, and page 139 in the B/C/S. And if we could go -- scroll down

3 the page in the B/C/S so we can see the part that begins in -- "In

4 Posavina..."

5 Q. Sir, do you see the paragraph there now just below the centre of

6 the page, starting: "In Posavina and Western Bosnia ..."?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let me read through it. It's only a short paragraph.

9 "In Posavina and Western Bosnia, we have put the emphasis on the

10 grouping of forces, air and artillery support, and in Podrinje, in a

11 specific way, the increased expenditure of ammunition and materiel and

12 equipment, as well as the use of the reserves of the Main Staff of the

13 Army of RS. The presence of the commander of the Main Staff, or of a

14 representative of the Main Staff, in the units carrying out the mission

15 of the liberation of Podrinje in a specific way of giving weight to and

16 steering combat operations towards a single goal."

17 So that's just the sort of thing that the generals of the

18 Main Staff, including General Tolimir, were doing when they were sent to

19 the Krajina in the summer of 1995, isn't it? They were giving strength

20 to and making sure those units were focused on the goal, as ordered by

21 General Mladic. Do you agree with that, sir?

22 A. Well, their presence definitely contributed to a better

23 performance of the tasks. But this order also definitely shows that the

24 Main Staff has its own focus, just like every other unit has the focus of

25 its action. Therefore, the order says that the commander is going to be

Page 19295

1 either at the command post, forward command post, or an observation post.

2 Q. Mr. Culic, the Prosecution agrees that commanders issue orders in

3 the VRS, but would you agree that General Tolimir and other specialist

4 assistant commanders and other security and intelligence officers were

5 experts in implementing the orders of the army's commanders?

6 A. Yes, of course. All the assistants were experts in their

7 respective fields of expertise, but they were not those who implemented

8 the orders on the ground, because the system of control in our system was

9 quite clear: The orders were carried out by the commands or

10 institutions; that is to say, commanders of division, corps, battalions,

11 platoons, et cetera. And that is on -- the basis on which our chain of

12 command was constructed.

13 Q. I'd like to, please, go to one of the documents that's mentioned

14 on the list everyone has in front of them. It's the first reference.

15 And this is for August, the date of the 6th of August, and this is a time

16 when General Tolimir attended the 52nd Session of the Republika Srpska

17 National Assembly in Pale.

18 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could have 65 ter 3455, please, on the

19 screen.

20 Q. Mr. Culic, do you know if General Tolimir was in Pale on the

21 6th of August of 1995 attending this meeting?

22 A. Your Honours, I know that he did attend certain Assembly

23 sessions. But if I look at this date, I can only conclude that according

24 to this document he attended this session as well.

25 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could please go to page 35 of the English

Page 19296

1 and page 31 of the B/C/S.

2 Q. Sir, you can see here General Tolimir is one of the speakers at

3 the Assembly session. Do you see his name at the top of the page, sir,

4 followed by the transcript of what he was saying that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the English --

7 A. I can see his full name.

8 MR. ELDERKIN: For everyone's reference: In the English it's

9 right at the time at the bottom of the page. So we need to scroll down,

10 please, to the foot of that page.

11 Q. And, sir, we've already discussed the role of the generals of the

12 Main Staff when they were assigned to the front lines. In particular,

13 you've told us about General Tolimir in the Krajina in July. Where did

14 General Tolimir come from? What front was he at before the Krajina? Do

15 you know that?

16 A. I really can't tell you where he had come from. All we knew was

17 that he had come from the superior command. As for his movements, I

18 really cannot tell you anything about it because I don't know.

19 Q. You know about the operations to take over first the Srebrenica

20 enclave and then the Zepa enclave in Eastern Bosnia which took place in

21 July 1995?

22 A. Yes, I know that this happened in July. But I don't know who was

23 there, who was moving about, or what they were doing. I really had no

24 connection with any of those things.

25 Q. General Tolimir was assigned in Eastern Bosnia and he was in Zepa

Page 19297

1 until just before he came to the Krajina.

2 MR. ELDERKIN: If we go to page --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, you are at the moment a bit beyond

4 the area Mr. Tolimir raised in his examination-in-chief.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, if you will allow me to continue

6 with the next couple of questions, this returns to the subject of the

7 responsibilities of General Tolimir in a command or an operational role,

8 and it's discussed in this Assembly session as well as in additional

9 documents. I can show you the page, Mr. President, and hopefully you

10 will see where this is going. It's at page 32 in the B/C/S and page 37

11 in the English. And it's starting in the indented paragraph right in the

12 middle of the B/C/S page and also the middle of the English.

13 Q. It starts - and this is General Tolimir responding to another

14 speaker:

15 "A statement that Zepa was a reason for the fall of Glamoc and

16 Grahovo, because two generals were assigned to Zepa, has been used as a

17 trump card here. By solving the problem of Zepa, dear gentlemen, we got

18 two brigades from Drina Corps in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps. By

19 solving the problem of Srebrenica, we also got adequate reserves. And we

20 did it in the period of time for which we estimated that the

21 international community would not react, which was immediately after the

22 events that took place in the Western Slavonia."

23 Do you see that part, sir, and does that reflect that

24 General Tolimir was assigned to Zepa in a role involving the oversight of

25 the take-over of that enclave which, according to General Tolimir

Page 19298

1 himself, succeeded in relieving the pressure on the VRS and thereby

2 assisted in providing troops for the Krajina?

3 A. I didn't understand your question. I see in front of me a lot of

4 things mentioned by the Prosecutor, but I don't know with whom

5 Mr. Tolimir spoke with, what kind of report he is talking about, whether

6 there were two or three generals.

7 Q. Well, sir, you can read for yourself, in the text in front of

8 you, General Tolimir's statement about two generals being assigned to

9 Zepa. I believe it's uncontested in this trial that General Tolimir was

10 present as a general of the VRS Main Staff during the VRS operation

11 against Zepa. And you can see that that operation, according to

12 General Tolimir, led to the successful completion in Zepa, and that

13 liberated units of the Drina Corps to go to the Krajina. Do you agree

14 with that, sir?

15 A. I didn't understand your question. What you are asking me about?

16 Because if I read it, I can't see, from what I see, to whom

17 General Tolimir spoke, so your question is not clear to me.

18 Q. Sir, this is the record of the RS National Assembly.

19 General Tolimir is speaking at that Assembly. He's responding to another

20 speaker, but he's addressing the Assembly. And this is a record of the

21 minutes of that. So General Tolimir here is speaking to a wide audience.

22 In any event, sir, I'll show you something else, if I may, which

23 is a short video-clip. And this is of General Mladic. And

24 General Mladic here is discussing what role or part of the role that

25 General Tolimir played during the Zepa operation.

Page 19299

1 MR. ELDERKIN: And this is from Exhibit P1029.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, I don't quite understand this line

3 of questions you are putting to the witness. We discussed earlier in

4 which way your questions during cross-examination should relate to the

5 examination-in-chief. If -- you should tell us in which way you could

6 establish the whereabouts of Mr. Tolimir during that period we talked

7 about by showing this video.

8 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, at this stage my examination is

9 focussing on one of the other subjects of examination-in-chief, which is

10 what kind of role General Tolimir did and could play when he was assigned

11 to one of the fronts of the VRS's combat actions. General Tolimir came,

12 as we know, straight from Zepa across to the Krajina, and in the Assembly

13 session minutes he described that assignment, how two generals had been

14 assigned in Zepa, clearly responsible for the Zepa operation. The

15 speech, as shown on this video, General Tol-- General Mladic - excuse

16 me - describes one of the activities that General Tolimir undertook

17 during the Zepa operation.

18 So it's following that part of the examination-in-chief in terms

19 of the responsibility. Because it's reflected in this 6th of August

20 Assembly session, I found it more convenient to go straight to the video

21 which talks about that subject. It doesn't, obviously, deal with his

22 whereabouts in August. I can stick to the whereabouts line of

23 questioning first, but it did seem to me to be natural. If you would

24 prefer that I save that until we've been through other documents

25 concerning the whereabouts first, I can also do it that way,

Page 19300

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was just wondering what purpose you are heading

3 at. But if you are now talking about command structure and command

4 responsibilities of assistant commanders or members of the Main Staff,

5 you may do that because that was one part of the examination-in-chief.

6 But that was not clear from the outset.

7 MR. ELDERKIN: I apologise for lack of clarity. That's where the

8 video is going. I will return also to the whereabouts during the period

9 August through the beginning was October.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.

11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. Correct me if I'm wrong: My

12 understanding of the evidence-in-chief related to the period

13 30th of August to somewhere in the middle of October. And as I have

14 understood the evidence - correct me again if I'm wrong - Zepa operations

15 happened before 30th of July. So do you think you are within your area

16 of cross-examination focussing on Zepa? Thank you.

17 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you for your question, Your Honour. My

18 cross-examination in relation to Zepa is to respond to the part of the

19 examination-in-chief where General Tolimir was asking the witness about

20 his understanding of what role he, General Tolimir, as an assistant

21 commander could perform in relation to military operations. Not just the

22 Krajina operation, but, obviously, the representation is that

23 General Tolimir in the Krajina, if he was unable to give orders, direct

24 military activities, that would also apply for any consideration of the

25 role that General Tolimir played during the earlier operation.

Page 19301

1 So at this point I'm moving away from the whereabouts, but it is

2 focussing on that important part of the examination-in-chief. And it's

3 for that reason I'm talking about Zepa; not because, obviously, the

4 witness was far away from Zepa and not present, I understand, during that

5 operation, but because of the question of responsibilities.

6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Elderkin.

8 MR. ELDERKIN: And we could see the clip, please, which is at

9 2 hours, 12 minutes, and 55 seconds through to 2 hours, 13 minutes, and

10 42 seconds. And that reflects, for point of reference, the transcripts

11 of the same video, which in English is at page 11 and B/C/S at page 8.

12 Q. And, sir, I'd ask you, please, to listen carefully to the part of

13 General Mladic's speech when he speaks about General Tolimir and a person

14 called Kusic.

15 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we play it, please.

16 [Video-clip played]

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May we stop for a moment. We can't hear. I

18 think even the witness can't hear it very properly. It's very -- it's

19 not loud enough.

20 But perhaps you can help us with the translation: Is there --

21 are there subtitles or do we have a transcript?

22 MR. ELDERKIN: There is, indeed, a transcript. I don't see any

23 subtitles, so I doubt very much that there is a subtitled version

24 available in the system. The transcript, I think, is associated with the

25 same exhibit number. And, as I say, the page numbers for this section

Page 19302

1 are page 11 in the English and page 8 in the B/C/S. It may be -- since

2 it's only a very short clip of under a minute, perhaps we could just play

3 through and -- for what it's worth and then have up on the screen the two

4 transcript sections.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please. I agree. Carry on.

6 [Video-clip played]

7 MR. ELDERKIN:

8 Q. Sir, we are going to put on the screen now a written transcript

9 in case General Mladic's words there weren't clear enough for you to hear

10 well.

11 MR. ELDERKIN: And as I say, I think it's page 8 in B/C/S and

12 page 11 in English.

13 Q. Mr. Culic, if you see in the lower half of the page, you can see

14 a section beginning with the name of General Tolimir. The video we've

15 seen started a little before that and played through to a little after

16 that. The part concerning General Tolimir reads:

17 "From Boksanica, General Tolimir and Kusic fired on Ribioc."

18 Do you see that section, sir, of the transcript?

19 A. Yes, I can see that.

20 Q. Here General Mladic was speaking about General Tolimir playing

21 what was clearly an active role in the military attack on Zepa by firing

22 on that village. Do you agree, sir?

23 A. Gentlemen, as far as I know, General Mladic mentioned three

24 officers. General Tolimir, who probably represented the Main Staff, was

25 among them. I know that Kusic was a brigade commander, which means that

Page 19303

1 it wasn't him who acted. It was his unit that acted. So that was the

2 brigade under the command of Colonel Kusic. And he was there, obviously,

3 to represent the command.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. I am finished with using the video.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, this --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the video already in evidence?

7 MR. ELDERKIN: The video is, Your Honours. The Assembly session

8 minutes are not. I would propose to tender only a short range of pages

9 for the section that I referred to, as well as, perhaps, the first page,

10 to give an indication of the date. So that would be pages 1 and then 35

11 through 37 in English, and page 1 and 31 through 33 in the B/C/S. And

12 that's for 65 ter number 3455.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you intend to upload these pages as a separate

14 document?

15 MR. ELDERKIN: I understand that that's the easiest way to

16 proceed, so yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: After having uploaded this separate document, it

18 will be marked -- it will be received. But this document, 65 ter 3455,

19 will be marked for identification.

20 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 THE REGISTRAR: And it will be assigned Exhibit P2878. Thank

22 you.

23 MR. ELDERKIN:

24 Q. Mr. Culic, I'd like you again to look at the list of places where

25 the Prosecution say General Tolimir was present outside the Krajina

Page 19304

1 during August through October of 1995. I only want to go to a couple

2 more examples.

3 MR. ELDERKIN: The next one would be 65 ter 2494, please.

4 Q. And this is again an Assembly session. It's the

5 53rd Assembly Session, and it's in Pale. It takes place on the

6 28th of August of 1995. And if we could first see the cover page.

7 So you see the date and the title of this. It's the minutes of

8 that session.

9 A. I can see it.

10 MR. ELDERKIN: Can we first go, please, to page 14 in English,

11 page 18 in B/C/S. We can go to the bottom half of the page in English,

12 please, and it will be the -- yep, the --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 MR. ELDERKIN: That's fine right now in the B/C/S.

15 Q. So you see the paragraph which talks about European peace

16 negotiations. It starts with "I will tell you about some details here

17 later ..." and then it describes a couple of meetings of peace

18 negotiations; one in Geneva on the 16th of August and a second time in

19 another European city on the 26th of August. And then it reads --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- "The first time the talks were conducted by

22 President Krajisnik, Mr. Zametica, our side, asked that we don't send

23 more negotiators. And the second time, on the 26th of August,

24 President Karadzic, Mr. Lukic, General Tolimir, President Krajisnik, and

25 myself."

Page 19305

1 Sir, do you agree that this indicates General Tolimir was away

2 from the Krajina at European negotiations on the 26th of August?

3 A. Yes, that day, for that day.

4 MR. ELDERKIN: Then can we please go to page 22 of the English,

5 page 28 of the B/C/S.

6 Q. Sir, do you see here that General Tolimir spoke at the

7 53rd Assembly Session on the 28th of August? He was also away from the

8 Krajina on that day and he was in Pale that time.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would ask to tender a couple of

11 these pages. There is, actually, an exhibit, P2435, which contains the

12 section we're seeing on the screen now. It doesn't contain the previous

13 page, page 14 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, of which refer to

14 General Tolimir's attendance on the 26th of August at the other

15 negotiations. So I only want to put in, again, the cover page, and then

16 page 14 in English, page 18 in B/C/S, which we can upload separately.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is appreciated. And it will be received.

18 And until that point in time it will be marked for identification.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It will be assigned Exhibit P2879. Thank you.

20 MR. ELDERKIN:

21 Q. Sir, without going into every other document, do you agree, as a

22 general proposition, that there were numerous occasions when

23 General Tolimir was away from the Krajina during August, September, and

24 October of 1995?

25 A. I know that he spent some time in Krajina. I also know that he

Page 19306

1 had tasks that took him all over the place. But he also returned. I

2 don't have any doubts about the documents that you're showing me. I

3 don't doubt their authenticity. When there was an Assembly meeting, I'm

4 sure that he was present. So I'm not contesting anything here.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like, please, to see Exhibit P104, which is a

6 collection of maps. And go to page 4, please, in e-court.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: While this will be uploaded: Mr. Elderkin, you

8 have used 65 ter 397, "The Analysis of Combat Readiness." Are you

9 tendering parts of it?

10 MR. ELDERKIN: Excuse me for one moment.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.

12 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

13 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would ask to tender the whole

14 document. If, however, Your Honours will only allow a part to be

15 admitted, it would be the section that I read from. But I believe that

16 the whole document is a relevant analysis. It's not contested as to

17 its --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many pages?

19 MR. ELDERKIN: -- authenticity. I believe the English is

20 149 pages and the B/C/S, I think, slightly shorter. It's 109, off the

21 top of my head, but I can check.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't object to

24 the admission of anything that this Court deems to be evidence.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I see you on your feet.

Page 19307

1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I remember

2 properly, this analysis was also used when Mr. Butler was examined in

3 this courtroom, or perhaps the OTP relied on it. Maybe we should check

4 whether one part of that analysis is already in evidence.

5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I understand that Mr. Butler does,

6 indeed, cite to this report in his own reports. We're not sure if -- off

7 the top of our heads, if he actually testified about it, but it's

8 certainly material that he uses in his reports.

9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told by the Court Officer that a part of

11 this analysis is already in evidence, tendered through Witness Butler, as

12 P2491, but not the whole document. Now you are tendering the whole

13 document, and the translation is already available; therefore, it will be

14 received as a separate document.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 397, the complete

16 document, shall be assigned Exhibit P2880. Thank you.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.

18 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much.

19 And if I could now have P104, at e-court page 4, on the screen.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have one map on the screen. Is that not the

21 correct one?

22 MR. ELDERKIN: That is the correct one. If we could zoom in as

23 much as possible onto Bosnia to keep it within the edges. I think a few

24 centimetres we can go past. Yes. I think that's perfect, thank you.

25 I'd also ask if the witness would be able to mark on this map

Page 19308

1 just so we can be clear where --

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

3 MR. ELDERKIN: -- he was engaged.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Usher.

5 MR. ELDERKIN:

6 Q. Sir, the Usher is going to show you how to use this electronic

7 pen to draw on the screen.

8 First of all, do you confirm you recognise this map which shows

9 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina? And roughly the different

10 shading areas represent the -- the borders of the entities. I understand

11 that things were moving around in the summer of 1995, but the part in the

12 west, that's the Krajina area where you were based. And Republika Srpska

13 forms this wider shape, narrows off up around Bijeljina, and then runs

14 north-south along the eastern side of Bosnia.

15 Could you mark on there, please, sir, a circle -- a reasonably

16 large circle where you were engaged, where your brigade was located in

17 the summer of 1995. As a point of reference: Just below the S of Bosnia

18 is the town of Sipovo, of the centre of Sipovo municipality.

19 A. Yes, I can see it.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please mark it. That area.

21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22 MR. ELDERKIN:

23 Q. Sir, could you tell us which -- the first line that we see on the

24 map that runs through the federation territory, what does that represent,

25 if anything? Is that the front line at the time? Or ... all I can see

Page 19309

1 at the moment is a longer line and then a short vertical line. What does

2 the longer line represent?

3 A. The longer line is the axis of my brigade from Donji Vakuf to

4 Travnik. It encompasses the zone on the right, excluding Bugojno; and on

5 the left, Mount Vlasic. The second part of the brigade which was Janj

6 combat group, or Combat Group 1, encompassed the road across Kupres and

7 all along the border from Glamoc to Vitorog. The third smaller part,

8 when the offence was launched, that part of the brigade covered the axis

9 in the direction of Kljuc, i.e., Jajce.

10 Q. And this is the area where General Tolimir was president --

11 present - excuse me - when he was in the Krajina in the summer of 1995;

12 is that right?

13 A. Yes, yes. This area is even wider, because the territory of

14 Krajina extended all the way to Drvar, so this did not cover only the

15 area where I was.

16 Q. And in the summer of 1995, for anyone - General Tolimir or anyone

17 else - who wanted to travel from the Krajina through Republika Srpska

18 territory to get back to the VRS Main Staff at Crna Rijeka or to get to

19 Pale, they would have to travel all the way through the Republika Srpska

20 territory that we can see on the screen; is that correct?

21 A. Well, there was a road. They moved in vehicles or in

22 helicopters. It all depended on the task at hand.

23 Q. And if we just concentrate on the road, that would mean

24 travelling from the area where you've put your markings northwards

25 towards Banja Luka, then across and through the corridor to Bijeljina,

Page 19310

1 down past Zvornik, Vlasenica, to Han Pijesak or even further to Pale.

2 That would be roughly the road route, wouldn't it?

3 A. Yes. The road led to Banja Luka. Banja Luka was the cross-roads

4 either towards Prijedor or Prnjavor or towards the corridor. In any

5 case, that was the road that was used for travels.

6 Q. Okay. I don't need for you to make any more markings and I don't

7 need to use this map any more.

8 MR. ELDERKIN: So I'd ask if this could be saved, unless

9 Your Honours wish to add anything else to what's marked now.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering this marked map?

11 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may, please, yes.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, page 4 of Exhibit P104, marked by

14 the witness in Court, shall be assigned Exhibit P2881.

15 MR. ELDERKIN:

16 Q. Mr. Culic, you referred to NATO bombing of various communications

17 facilities. You didn't give us a date for that bombing. I'd ask you if

18 you agree that NATO's bombing campaign was starting on the

19 30th of August of 1995? That's the date when many of the VRS

20 communications facilities was bombed.

21 A. It was a long time-period. I don't know exactly when that

22 started, but I know that communications centres and radio hubs were

23 bombarded by NATO. I know that we received air alert signals every day.

24 My area of responsibility was often overflown by NATO. One NATO aircraft

25 was even grounded in the general region of Vakuf.

Page 19311

1 Q. I'd like the return to the subject that you mentioned earlier

2 about the ability of security officers to give orders.

3 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'll first ask, please, to show Exhibit P2176.

4 Your Honours, this doesn't appear on my cross-examination list.

5 It's an area that only came up during the examination-in-chief. The

6 exhibit is already admitted, so hopefully it doesn't cause any problem

7 for the Defence that it's being used now.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.

9 MR. ELDERKIN:

10 Q. Mr. Culic, you can see here a document headed from the

11 VRS Main Staff security and intelligence sector, and specifically from

12 the security administration. You see that at the top of the page.

13 If it would help, we can zoom in.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at the bottom of the page do you see that this document was

16 written, signed, and sent by Ljubisa Beara? It's under the round stamp

17 on the left at the bottom.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, do you happen to know who Colonel Beara was? Did you ever

20 serve with him?

21 A. I never served with him, but I know who he was. He was the chief

22 of security in the Main Staff of the VRS.

23 Q. And, sir, this telegram from Colonel Beara -- actually, he signs

24 here as "Naval Captain Beara." This is addressed to the security section

25 of the East Bosnia Corps, as well as security section of the Drina Corps,

Page 19312

1 and to the chief of intelligence and security of the 1st Podrinje Light

2 Infantry Brigade. You see that just below the heading, sir?

3 A. To the chief of the security organ, I would say, most probably.

4 Q. And if you just take the time - it's a short communication - to

5 read through. At the end of the first paragraph, there's reference to

6 Atlantida must be transported in secret to the Mlin military prison in

7 Bijeljina in the night of 10th to 11th of June, 1995, or at some other

8 appropriate time. Captain Carkic will arrange this with brigade

9 commander Major Rajko Kusic and personally carry out the task by

10 announcing his arrival to Colonel Todorovic, chief of the OB IBK and

11 explaining our demands in person.

12 Sir, do you agree that here Beara is issuing orders to his

13 subordinates in the security service to carry out a very specific task;

14 namely, the transport of this Atlantida to the Mlin prison? He's

15 instructing and ordering his subordinates here, isn't he?

16 A. Yes, he's issuing instructions.

17 Q. And those instructions were to be followed, weren't they?

18 A. As far as I can see from the document, he was giving instructions

19 and guidelines to the organ as to how they should carry out this task.

20 And he also conveyed to them that this professional task that they have

21 to carry out, that it will be performed in agreement with the unit

22 commander.

23 Q. Mr. Culic, we've also heard testimony in this case about

24 General Tolimir giving orders or instructions to subordinate security

25 officers, specifically that he sent a telegram to the East Bosnia Corps.

Page 19313

1 And this is around the 12th of July of 1995. That preparations should be

2 made at the Batkovic collection centre for the arrival of 1.000 to 1.200

3 prisoners. That's again an example of security officers being able to

4 issue orders or instructions within their service, isn't it?

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask Mr. Elderkin to

7 show the witness the telegram that Tolimir sent on the 12th to

8 East Bosnia Corps.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would agree with Mr. Tolimir. It would be

10 helpful for the witness, and for a better understanding of the Chamber,

11 to see the document you are referring to.

12 MR. ELDERKIN: I'm referring to the testimony of another witness

13 in the case, and that's of Witness Todorovic, Your Honours. And that's

14 at reference 12933 to 12934 of this trial.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have that on the screen.

16 And you should point out the lines you are referring to.

17 MR. ELDERKIN: If it will help to locate it, it's the

18 18th of April, 2011.

19 Q. And you can see, starting at line 23 of page 12933, an answer

20 given by the witness, which starts:

21 "Yes. I cannot really be specific about the date. I couldn't do

22 it in Belgrade, I cannot do it now, as to whether that was on the same

23 day in the evening or the following day or two days later, but in any

24 case, it was after the fall of Srebrenica, I think, and I am 90 per cent

25 sure that a telegram came from the Main Staff that the East Bosnia Corps

Page 19314

1 command should be engaged and should prepare accommodation at the

2 Batkovic collection centre for another 1.000 to 1.200 -- 1.100 or 1.200.

3 So 1.000 to 1.200, as far as I can remember. Thus to prepare

4 accommodation for new detainees who are going to be coming over the

5 coming days."

6 And so the testimony is that this order came from the security

7 and intelligence sector from General Tolimir. Sir, as indicated by this

8 witness's testimony that I've read to you now, the instructions about

9 making preparations for a receipt of prisoners were instructions which

10 were issued with the intention that they be followed.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Elderkin please show the

13 witness where it says that he received an order from Mr. Tolimir. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.

16 MR. ELDERKIN: I've read all that I need to read from the

17 transcript, and hopefully my question is clear. I've read out the

18 section referring to this telegram. I'm now asking the witness whether

19 those instructions -- the word "order," if General Tolimir wishes I don't

20 use it, I can say "instructions" -- it's what this witness doesn't know

21 any more about what happened in the East Bosnian Corps in terms of

22 receipt of that telegram order or instruction, but my question relates to

23 his knowledge about what would happen, what was meant to happen, on

24 receipt of such a communication from the Main Staff.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand your position, Mr. Elderkin. But in

Page 19315

1 your question you presented already an interpretation and your

2 understanding of this part of the transcript. I don't see the name of

3 Mr. Tolimir in that part of the transcript. Not even his sector in the

4 Main Staff. I only can read that a telegram came from the Main Staff,

5 that the East Bosnian Corps command should do that and that. It's better

6 not to put too much of your own interpretation into a question.

7 MR. ELDERKIN: Well, I can restrict my question and re-ask it as

8 follows, if it's acceptable:

9 Q. An instruction issued by the Main Staff - and I refer to the

10 instruction insofar as you can understand it from what I read to you of

11 the other witness's testimony - such an instruction from the Main Staff

12 was issued with the intention that it would be followed, the instructions

13 would be carried out. Do you agree with that, sir?

14 A. Of course the Main Staff issued orders that should be followed.

15 They would not issue any orders that are -- are not to be obeyed and

16 carried through. They can issue orders orally or in writing, or they can

17 convey them through communications means, or they can be carried by a

18 person.

19 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I think

22 that it would be important to read lines 8, 9, and 10 on page 12934 which

23 would clarify whether it was a written order or a telephone conversation.

24 So the Trial Chamber can then discern from this what it is all about.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that. That is just a proposal.

Page 19316

1 And all this is on the record in this case.

2 Mr. Elderkin, please carry on.

3 MR. ELDERKIN: Very good. Thank you.

4 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

5 MR. ELDERKIN: And just in relation to that discussion we've just

6 finished, that we agree that the full testimony of that witness needs to

7 be read to understand exactly what instructions were issued, but I'm not

8 going to ask any more questions on that particular subject.

9 Q. Mr. Culic, do you know the word "balija," which refers to Bosnian

10 Muslims?

11 A. I am familiar with it because I still live in the place where

12 there are Muslims and Croats. This word dates back to ancient times and

13 it is used as a derogatory term among ordinary folks when they talk about

14 Muslims. They call them "balijas."

15 Q. Now, in communications that you sent as a brigade commander

16 during the war, did you use the word "balija" when you were referring to

17 Bosnian Muslims?

18 A. I personally don't use that word. However, whether it was

19 mentioned in any of the documents, I wouldn't dare to tell you anything

20 with 100 per cent certainty. Anyway, I would like to say that this word

21 does not exist in my vocabulary because my whole life and throughout my

22 schooling - and I worked in an institution that trained Muslims, Croats,

23 Albanians, all other ethnicities - and for that reason, I cannot tell you

24 for certain, but I can tell you that I, myself, don't use that word.

25 Q. And the Prosecution would agree with that, sir. We've looked at

Page 19317

1 many of your combat reports and other documents that you wrote during the

2 war and which we have in our evidence collections, and we can't see

3 anywhere that you used the word. Does that sound fair?

4 A. Well, it does sound. But I told you that it is 99 per cent true.

5 Because, as you know, sometimes you don't always draft documents

6 yourself. People do it for you. You only sign it. Sometimes you don't

7 have time to read it before signing.

8 Q. An officer using the word "balija" in a communication would

9 convey an unprofessional message, wouldn't he?

10 A. Possibly. But all kinds of terms were used during the war. The

11 other side did not refrain from using various words. War is a specific

12 phenomenon and I really wouldn't like anyone to experience that.

13 Q. Would you agree that using the word "balija" would have the

14 effect of dehumanizing the Bosnian Muslims much more so than somebody

15 using more neutral terms such as the "Bosnian Muslim side" or "the

16 enemy"?

17 A. Perhaps if you look at it today, and if you take everything into

18 account, that would be so. But you know that during the war there was a

19 lot of belittling and demeaning and insults, et cetera. Nowadays it

20 wouldn't be politically correct, but at the time it was being used and it

21 was something normal.

22 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we see Exhibit P2274, please.

23 Q. It's a short document, sir, and you can see that it was sent by

24 General Tolimir of the VRS Main Staff on the 4th of June, 1995. You can

25 see that it's sent to some important people here, including the president

Page 19318

1 of Republika Srpska. And you can see -- if we go down a little bit in

2 the English just to see clearer, there's a paragraph -- the first

3 paragraph, which reads:

4 "The GS VRS commander and his staff maintain the positions

5 presented in this telegram regarding your proposals for resolving matters

6 of additional exchange of prisoners of war with the Ustasha and balija

7 side."

8 Do you see that, sir?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And this kind of language coming from General Tolimir is

11 unprofessional and insulting and derogatory, isn't it?

12 A. Well, as I told you: At the time, words were being used that

13 could possibly not be permissible today. Just as we used to call them

14 balijas, they used to call us Chetniks. So let me be clear on that.

15 That would be it.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Can

18 Mr. Elderkin show the -- whether this document was signed by

19 General Tolimir or by somebody who authored it, because there's no

20 signature here.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you may deal with that in your

22 re-examination.

23 MR. ELDERKIN: I can confirm, though, Your Honours, there's

24 nothing else except what is on the screen at the moment. So what you

25 see, as I understand it, is what we have.