1 Friday, 23 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [Status Conference]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.30 p.m.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: So, good afternoon, everybody. For the record, the
7 accused is present, assisted by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. For the Prosecution I
8 see Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you are accompanied by someone else.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. This is Hanh Nguyen she is
10 an associate legal officer and she's just started with us, and I would
11 like to introduce her to you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. You are most welcome.
13 So let 's come to the agenda straight away. I want to make sure,
14 before we proceed any further, Mr. Trbic, that you can follow the
15 proceedings in your own language, that you are receiving interpretation,
16 in other words.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can understand
18 it. I am receiving interpretation.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Trbic.
20 You will recall, but I will repeat it, that the reason why we hold
21 Status Conferences periodically is because we are required to do so by
22 Rule 65 bis, and we are holding this Status Conference within the 120 days
23 limit following the last Status Conference. The purpose of Status
24 Conference, and I repeat this, is to organise exchanges between the
25 parties with a view to ensuring an expeditious preparation for trial, and
1 also to give an opportunity to the accused to raise issues in relation to
2 his mental and physical condition, as well as his state of detention.
3 You will recall also that the last Status Conference was held on
4 the 24th of November of last year.
5 I'll deal first with outstanding motions, there aren't many. And
6 the first one is a motion filed by the Prosecution on the 4th of May,
7 asking for a referral of this case against the accused to Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina, pursuant to Rule 11 bis. I can state that on the 10th of
9 May, 2006, the President of the Tribunal, President Pocar, ordered that
10 this issue be decided by the Referral Bench established under the same
11 rule. Rule 11 bis hearing was held on the 15th of January of this year in
12 the presence of the accused, the Prosecution, and representatives of the
13 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That motion is still pending awaiting
14 decision before the Referral Bench.
15 Then a recent development, as recent as yesterday, which dealt
16 with the -- or impinges on the decision of this Trial Chamber of 14 July
17 2006, when the Trial Chamber granted the Defence request for certification
18 of severance decision of 26th June 2006.
19 You will recall that the Appeals Chamber had appointed a duty
20 judge for the purpose of that appeal. And on the 20th of June, 2006, the
21 Duty Judge granted the Defence request to suspend the time limits
22 concerning the appeal proceedings until further order. The President of
23 this Tribunal has, already as far back as the 21st of March of this year
24 appointed, assigned a Bench of five judges to hear the -- this appeal.
25 Yesterday the -- an order was issued by the Appeals Chamber. I
1 don't know, I'm sure that Mr. Piletta-Zanin would be aware of this, but
2 I'm not sure that the accused knows about it already. Perhaps you would
3 be able to inform us on this. Yesterday the President of the Appeals
4 Chamber issued an order allowing counsel for Accused Trbic, should the
5 Defence should wish to file a certified appeal against the impugned
6 decision pursuant to Rule 72 (C) of the rules no later than seven days
7 from the date of the order that is yesterday.
8 Three days ago the Defence filed, before the Trial Chamber in the
9 Popovic et al. trial, over which I preside, disclosure of all transcripts
10 including those in closed session, disclosure of all exhibits, including
11 those under seal, as well as a list of protected witnesses in that case.
12 This motion is pending before the Trial Chamber in the Popovic et al.
13 trial, and we will dispose of it soon after we get the response from the
15 To my knowledge there are no further motions currently pending
16 before this Trial Chamber in this particular case.
17 I come to the first substantial item on today's agenda. And that
18 arises in the wake of our decision, or of our order in this case, which we
19 handed down two days ago, namely an order in regard to the preparation of
20 trial in which we ordered, inter alia, that the parties shall take steps
21 to adequately prepare for trial, and secondly the parties shall present at
22 the Status Conference scheduled for today a statement as to the stage
23 reached in their preparation for trial.
24 So my first act for today is to turn my attention to you,
25 Mr. Vanderpuye, and ask you if you are in a position to provide the Trial
1 Chamber or the Pre-Trial Chamber with a detailed update, including
2 references to disclosure matters pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i) and (ii) and
3 Rule 68, preparations of pre-trial briefs, a list of documents and
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I can address most of those issues.
6 First, with respect to the pre-trial disclosure, the current status of
7 disclosure is still ongoing. And we have disclosed all of the material
8 that is -- that has been disclosed in the main case, Popovic et al., that
9 is pending before you as well, up until and through November the 29th of
10 last year.
11 In part, the disclosure in -- with respect to this matter had been
12 suspended because of the motion that was filed by Defence counsel to be
13 relieved in the matter and it had not been disposed of. Therefore, the
14 continuing disclosure came to a halt at that point. All of the disclosure
15 that had been made with respect to Popovic et al. had been made with
16 respect to this defendant as well. So all of the core disclosure that was
17 required under 65 ter has been, to extent, co-extensive with the other
18 case. The difference with the disclosure that has occurred in the main
19 case versus this one is essentially seven disclosures that have been made.
20 And those contain a number of documents which have not been -- for which
21 an index has not been provided to the Defence counsel in this case which
22 is presently being prepared and will be disclosed to him, I think
23 certainly within a couple of days if not within a day or so.
24 All of the material, however, that has been disclosed, which
25 corresponds to those indexes or indices, I should say, has been loaded
1 onto the EDS, and my understanding is that counsel for the defendant in
2 this case has access to those materials, but, of course, an index would be
3 helpful because of the extent of the -- because of the extent of the
4 material that is -- that is involved.
5 I should further provide the Court with information with respect
6 to the status of pre-trial briefs and with respect to this case. The
7 pre-trial brief in this case has not been prepared, has not commenced as
8 yet. And I think that that's correspondent to the stage of disclosure as
9 well. There are two issues that I think that are outstanding that need to
10 be addressed I think to advance the case. I did note in the Court's
11 ruling that the disposition of the competency of the defendant in this
12 case has been addressed, and we are proceeding forward, having resolved
13 that issue.
14 There was another issue, I think, that had been raised but not
15 fully addressed in the last conference. That issue was brought up in
16 relation to the disposition of the motion that Defence counsel had filed
17 to be relieved, in particular whether or not it raised a question of the
18 conflict of interest, notwithstanding the fact that counsel continues to
19 represent the defendant in this case. I don't know if the Court has
20 addressed the separate issue of a conflict of interest as concerns the
21 continued representation of Mr. Zanin. I don't know if that has actually
22 been ever been resolved but I thought that would be important to bring to
23 your attention in terms of the advancement of these proceedings.
24 Now, as far as the disclosure of -- as far as the disclosure of
25 witnesses, witness lists and exhibits, corresponding to the motion the
1 Defence counsel has recently filed, which I think is also a matter of
2 pre-trial disclosure with respect to this case, we are of course perfectly
3 willing to accede to his request and disclose that material. To the
4 extent, however, that some of that material is actually in evidence in the
5 other case under seal, we think that it would be appropriate to obtain a
6 ruling at least from the Trial Chamber in order to disclose it. We don't
7 dispute the fact that it would be relevant to the -- to the accused in
8 this case, and to his ability to prepare his defence in this case.
9 Certainly they're essentially parallel cases and the evidence that is used
10 in the main case is relevant to his position in this case.
11 However, to the extent that they have been admitted and they have
12 been -- and they are evidence under seal or otherwise protected, we feel
13 that a disclosure, a ruling has to be obtained permitting us, essentially
14 to disclose that material.
15 Now, we do have one other issue, I think, and that needs to be
16 addressed. And that relates to certain protected witnesses that we have
17 not yet called and intend to call in the main case that corresponds to our
18 disclosure obligations under Rule 66(A)(i) and (A)(ii) whether or not we
19 have reached a decision to call those witnesses in the main case, I don't
20 know whether that decision has been made in this particular case,
21 therefore the disclosure obligations under Rule 66(A)(ii) may be different
22 with respect to the case against this accused versus the other case.
23 In any event, even if they were required to be disclosed and I'm
24 certainly not suggesting that they're not, we have certain concerns for
25 the sensitive nature of those witnesses as regards the disclosure at this
1 time in relation to this case as some of that information hasn't yet been
2 resolved as to the -- as to how it will be used in the main case.
3 So that's essentially the status of disclosure as regards this
4 case, and the substantive preparation in terms of the pre-trial brief and
5 other issues relating to the preparation for trial as it stands at this
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I get the
8 impression that you were not anticipating the decision of this Trial
9 Chamber of the 21st, and perhaps even more so the decision of the Appeals
10 Chamber of yesterday, suspending the time limits and that you are
11 anticipating, a sort of a pretty straightforward -- pretty straightforward
12 Status Conference today, which would begin and finish in a few minutes.
13 It's not the case.
14 So let me try to and address some of the issues that you have
15 raised and then give the floor to Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
16 I mentioned the filing of a Defence motion in the Popovic case
17 requesting the disclosure of the material that I indicated, because I
18 think it's a matter that I should mention in the context of this case.
19 But the motion is in that case, not in this case. And I would prefer if I
20 hear no submissions from you in particular on this motion in this Status
21 Conference, because this is a motion the various Defence teams in the
22 Popovic case have a right to address and respond to. So that matter is
23 not open for discussion today. The Popovic trial team will hear all the
24 submissions that it requires on that motion, and it will decide it. And
25 then the -- that situation will create legal state of affairs for the
1 purpose of this -- of this case.
2 Now, I understand that the message you want to convey to me today
3 is that disclosure is still ongoing. But we have different types of
4 disclosure, and I want to make sure that we take them one by one. I refer
5 you first to the disclosure of the supporting material that accompanied
6 the indictment. Has that been -- which is supposed to have been made
7 within the 30 days sacramental limit from the initial appearance of the
8 accused. Has that been concluded?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: It has.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Now, we come to paragraph 2 of --
11 subparagraph 2 of paragraph A of Rule 66, namely copies of statements of
12 all witnesses whom the Prosecution -- Prosecutor intends to call to
13 testify at trial. If I read you well, you haven't even decided as yet as
14 to the complete list of witnesses that you intend to bring forward in this
15 trial. Is that correct? You are still toying with the idea, especially
16 in relation to some protected witness in the Popovic case.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is -- that is substantially correct. Maybe
18 I with explain a little bit.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: As the state of affairs is now, our intention is
21 to call most of, if not all of the witnesses that have been called in the
22 main case. Therefore, however, witnesses in the main case whom we have --
23 we have specific security concerns for, and so insofar as those witnesses
24 are concerned, while we certainly don't want to resist disclosing who
25 those people are, the security concerns attendant to those is a matter for
1 us to consider. And that is the -- that is the difference, essentially,
2 between the witness list that we will provide in this case, versus the one
3 that has been provided in the main case. I don't know if that -- I don't
4 know if that makes any -- makes it any clearer.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's a choice of words, yours, that again make
6 me reiterate that you may have been taken -- caught on the wrong foot in a
7 matter of three days, not having expected these two decisions, but here
8 they are now. And this procrastination and second thoughts that you may
9 have in relation to some sensitive witnesses, if still existing - and it
10 seems that it is - cannot be allowed to be protracted indefinitely. I
11 will probably need to come back to you to substantiate this part of your
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I can tell you is that --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we will hand down an order establishing a
15 time within which you have to comply with the requirements of paragraph
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I can tell you is that all of statements
18 that have been disclosed in the main case, Defence counsel has access to
19 all of them. So everything that has been disclosed in that case has been
20 disclosed to Defence counsel in this case. So that's the state of affairs
21 as it stands today.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the same rule or sub-rule deals also with
23 disclosure of copies of all transcripts and written statements in
24 accordance with Rule 92 bis, 92 ter, and 92 quater. Do I understand that
25 this is also ongoing.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: My answer is that this is ongoing. But my answer
2 is also that I believe it is fully consistent with the disclosure that has
3 been -- that has been conducted with respect to the main case as well.
4 The only distinction is, as of the 29th of November of last year, the
5 disclosure is different. But up until that point, which is well into the
6 establishment of the main trial, the disclosure has been co-extensive. So
7 the pre-trial disclosure obligations insofar as they concern this case,
8 should have been met to the extent that they were in the main case.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. And your estimate now, and this would
10 help the Trial Chamber make -- use its judgement to the best its
11 abilities, when can we expect to have the pre-trial brief and a first
12 definitive list of documents and witnesses? Now that more or less the
13 situation has crystallised. There's still the question of severance to be
14 decided by the Appeals Chamber, but irrespective of that, let's
15 concentrate on the case. When are we likely to see your pre-trial brief
16 list of documents and witnesses?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: To be honest, with respect to those particular
18 issues, Mr. President, I'm not prepared to make a -- a representation. I
19 can give you a guesstimate, but I don't that that would be appropriate
20 without consulting with Mr. McCloskey and other members of the team,
21 because as you are aware, the resource that is we have to try this case at
22 the moment are largely occupied by the trial of the other case. That's
23 not -- certainly I'm not intending or offering as an excuse or anything.
24 But I think it figures into the ability for our team to prepare for this
25 case as well.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So the way I'm going proceed on this is to give you
2 up to today week to come forward with a formal indication as to what your
3 expectations timewise are and indicating also the problems that stand in
4 the way or that form the basis of your estimate.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is greatly appreciated.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: A week should be enough for you to come forward with
7 a proper estimate responsibly arrived at on which then we can decide.
8 Now -- thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, limitedly to
9 this area that I have been dealing with, namely disclosure in particular,
10 and leaving out the pre-trial brief list of witnesses and list of
11 documents for the time being, because that we can start working upon after
12 the end of next week, do you have any submissions to make relating to the
13 way disclosure has been ongoing? And please avoid referring to the motion
14 that you have filed in the Popovic case.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Good
16 afternoon, Your Honour, to all here.
17 I had understood you would have given me the floor for an oral
18 request or motion. Did I not understand properly? No problem,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The procedure that I adopt here is that I have an
21 agenda and towards the end of that agenda is submissions that the parties
22 would like to make on matters that we haven't dealt with, and then of
23 course you will be given all the opportunity that you require to make a
24 submission. But for the time being on the matter of disclosure, do you
25 wish to make submissions?
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. There's one
2 question which is important, and it -- for which I never got an answer,
3 and we should have a notification from the Prosecution, who knows what
4 it's about, they know what it's about. But for the rest, I think that
5 things are ongoing indeed. What I was wishing to see was two things, if
6 possible: I spoke several times about the idea of sistership for this
7 case, that is to give back everything which had already been disclosed on
8 Popovic, not necessarily useful, but to reduce the scope of what this case
9 will be when it's really starts so I can concentrate on that and not lose
10 any energy on this. This is a suggestion I must say I did not receive any
11 answer from the Prosecution.
12 Another question for the Chamber which you preside, Your Honour,
13 there are two matters, which have to be taken into consideration. I can
14 see that there is an acceleration of the procedures, I'm happy about that.
15 Possibly, after certain letters I sent, or something else, my impression
16 is that we are going towards a trial here in a very precise way, my
17 impression is precise. But since we still have this motion pending about
18 transfer to Sarajevo, I think it -- the matter should also be clarified on
19 the other side so that Mr. Trbic may be enlightened about what's going on.
20 That's the first point.
21 And secondly, Your Honour, I do want to put the ball in your
22 camp -- but I think it would be useful as -- said in one moment, both the
23 Tribunal the parties meet -- should meet to see how it would be possible
24 or not in case of trial to have the facts the agreed facts in this -- this
25 would save time, I say. I don't know if this procedure can be envisaged
1 but we would have milestones to see how we progress.
2 In order to answer your question about disclosure for the moment
3 it is true we have received, I think, practically everything concerning
4 the principal case, the Popovic case, and for the witnesses I think it
5 would be simpler that we would like to have this or that witness instead
6 of being submerged, which I find very unpleasant, under lists of witnesses
7 which will not finally be called or used. This is not using properly the
8 finances. Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you so much, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
10 Do you wish to comment on that, Mr. Vanderpuye?
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: There's only one thing that I'm not clear on and
12 I think it relates to my learned friend's indication that he had sent us a
13 submission or something to that effect, asking for particularisation of
14 the discovery. And I'm not aware that we've received such a document, and
15 if he could identify it, perhaps I could find it and maybe we could
16 accommodate his request, but I'm just unaware of that.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we should lose more time on that.
18 Perhaps you can, after the hearing, have mutual consultations and I'm sure
19 Mr. Piletta-Zanin will tell you exactly what he means.
20 Incidentally, before I pass on to the next item on the agenda, you
21 did mention en passant that you thought that the issue of whether Mr.
22 Piletta-Zanin would like to continue as Defence counsel in this case and
23 his request be withdrawn, still stood in the way for the purpose of
24 proceeding with the pre-trial stage. Well, I mean, you may or may not be
25 aware of this, but Mr. Piletta-Zanin did ask the Registrar to be
1 withdrawn. The Registrar's decision rejected that request, and on the
2 12th of December of last year the President, who has the ultimate say in
3 such matters, issued a confidential order on review of request of counsel
4 to be withdrawn, upholding the Registrar's decision referring to the issue
5 that I -- so that should be no obstacles. I understand that
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin still has some problems and perhaps if you want to
7 address them, you will address them, but not for the time being. I'm
8 coming to that very soon, actually. Sooner that you expected. But I
9 don't think the issue that you raised really is an obstacle for the
10 Prosecution of this case at this pre-trial stage.
11 Okay. Now, I am going to deal with an issue that perhaps you,
12 Mr. Vanderpuye, and your office may not be aware of, but which the Trial
13 Chamber has been kept updated upon. On the 8th of March, 8th of this
14 month, counsel for accused sent a letter to the head of OLAD in which he
15 expressed a number of concerns which do not, strictly speaking,
16 intrinsically fall under the competence of the Registrar and his Registry.
17 This letter was disclosed to the Trial Chamber by OLAD a few days ago, as
18 some of the issues raised by Mr. Piletta-Zanin are of direct concern to
19 the Trial Chamber, for the Trial Chamber.
20 You are probably at least as far as I know, not privy to this
21 letter. However, the issues that I am going to refer to are not new.
22 They have been heard before, and I'm going through them one by one, and
23 then I will give the floor to Mr. Piletta-Zanin and probably in that
24 context he can also address the matter that he wished to address the
25 Pre-Trial Chamber today.
11 Page 114 redacted.
11 Page 115 redacted.
1 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We are back in open session. So please,
4 could you make your submissions.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Very
6 briefly, I did indeed write this letter to make things move forward, and
7 things are moving forward, which is fine. So we are looking into the fact
8 whether there have been any breaches or violations. If this has been the
9 case, what needs to be done? When I turn to the registry to move things
10 forward, I'm told that it's for the Chamber to settle this. It might be
11 the Appeals Chamber, I doubt not that the situation is difficult. The
12 text clearly stipulates that the Tribunal can, the Tribunal can and when
13 things are happening which are not normal, I understand that the Tribunal
14 should. And I have written this, put this down in writing. In such a
15 situation, I may be mistaken, of course, to my mind the Tribunal has
16 the -- should respond proprio motu with its authority without any standing
17 behind it. Whether it be the Registrar, whether it be the President of
18 the Tribunal, whether it be the President of the Trial Chamber or the
19 President of the Trial Chamber -- the Appeals Chamber, it's all the same.
20 What matters is that the decision be taken.
21 But one could also respond differently, and say this is extremely
22 important. One can also say it is very important. And from then on
23 decisions should be taken. But what I wanted was things to be done,
24 because if nothing is done, I know that this is not the case, but one
25 gives the impression of an institution that does not or would not want to
1 react. I know full well that this is not the case, but I would like the
2 facts to demonstrate this rather than the contrary. I won't say any more
3 about this particular matter.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's go into private session for a
5 short while, please.
6 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I'm trying to make you understand is the
5 following: That I felt it was my duty to communicate in this -- in the
6 course of this Pre-Trial Conference the fact that once more you have
7 raised this issue with the Registrar. This issue was discussed for some
8 time during previous Status Conferences here, and even today. And what
9 I'm making clear, and trying to make you understand, both of you, is that
10 there is no point in hearing submissions on this issue unless we are
11 seized of a proper motion and I'm also indicating that I find it difficult
12 to conceive how we can be seized with a proper motion when, to me, the
13 jurisdiction lies elsewhere. This is what I'm trying to make you
15 By no means am I trying to underestimate the importance of the
16 issue that you have been raising throughout the course of these
17 proceedings. It's a very serious, very serious matter. But I don't think
18 that in any court of justice in the world, any trial chamber or any court
19 for that matter would jump in and determine an issue if it is not seized
20 with it.
21 So my suggestion is that I am by no means closing the door, but I
22 am just telling you more or less what I think the -- the position is.
23 However, if you are going to refer to the other case, then obviously again
24 we go into private session. Just to put your mind at rest.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, just in other
3 jurisdictions there is an automatic obligation to inform, and this is just
4 a suggestion I'm making. I wonder whether your Chamber could not take the
5 decision to notify the entirety of this transcript to the Chamber in
6 question. And then we'll see whether we can move forward.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't -- I don't think that's the right approach.
8 I mean, if you have a complaint that you wish to raise formally, it's up
9 to you to decide in which forum to raise it. I am not telling you don't
10 raise it in this -- in -- before this Trial Chamber. I'm just telling you
11 in a friendly way that I don't think this is the right forum. But don't
12 expect this Trial Chamber to raise it with another Trial Chamber. If you
13 are not prepared to do it yourself, you know.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, things, I think,
15 are very clear as far as -- in my mind, but I thank you for the position
16 you are taking.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you so much as well,
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Is this other request that you have made, namely that
19 you are requesting that all documents be provided to you in hard copy, I
20 would like you to be specific in this. We don't -- again, we don't have a
21 motion in this, but this is something that can be discussed now and we
22 haven't got an idea what you are requesting to have in hard copy.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my office has
25 already photocopied the statements and a number of documents so that we
1 can get to work. But there is -- there are a lot of documents, as you
2 know. I've been working for this accused pro bono for the last two
3 months. I have a heavy workload while preparing the trial and to have
4 everything in hard copy, I believe that the administration here is able to
5 provide me with this. I have clearly stated why I would need to have it.
6 Well, if the administration does not want to do so, so be it, but I could
7 establish a list to make the Prosecution's work easier.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think one needs to distinguish between -- because,
9 as you know, the Prosecution is in the habit, and thank God for it as
10 well, of providing documents -- documents in CD format and -- electronic
11 format anyway. Are you objecting to that?
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've never
13 objected to that. And I have no reason to do so. And to object to
14 something that is quite natural. What I have said, I have exposed or set
15 forth the grounds for which I asked to have this. If the Prosecution does
16 not want to or can't, then I will draw the consequences thereof.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I am going to do is the following: Within a
18 week from today, please try to communicate in writing to the Office of the
19 Prosecutor your requests. You will exchange correspondence with Mr.
20 Piletta-Zanin, making your position clear, so that if there are any
21 outstanding issues relating to the way documents should be made available
22 to the Defence, I would be put in a position to be able to discuss them.
23 I would still require from you in due course, if there is no agreement
24 between you and Mr. Vanderpuye, a proper motion, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, right now I'm
1 calling upon your patience and an extension of the time limits. I know
2 that I will physically not be here at the end of the week anymore.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So how much time do you need to communicate --
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] One week more, one extra week,
6 JUDGE AGIUS: By all means. By all means. We try not to make
7 anybody's life difficult or more difficult than it already is. So you
8 will have two weeks, and if you require more time, please communicate to
9 our senior legal officer and we can extend it informally.
10 All right. Is there any other matter that either of you wish to
12 I'll start with you, Mr. Vanderpuye, first.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, we don't have any at this time.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: You are not even requesting no further surprises?
15 Three days before the Status Conference.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: That would be -- that would be nice, but ...
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
18 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I understand you wish to make some submission.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. You
20 mentioned the letter of the 8th or the 9th, I think it's the 9th of March.
21 In this letter I was complaining about a certain slowness. I hesitate to
22 write a letter tomorrow in which I'm going complain about things being too
23 fast. You understand I'm saying this in an amicable fashion. You -- when
24 I was a young lawyer, as I am a very young -- humble and young lawyer, I
25 am under the impression that the transfer to Sarajevo is something which
1 is done and finished. So what is the point of investing all my time and
2 energy in this case today, which you are asking me to do. I have the
3 feeling that something is -- is happening. And I think it would be useful
4 to be given dates about when this trial is about to start. If something
5 were to happen or something is happening, I -- I would like to be informed
6 so that I could pencil it in my diary because not everybody is available
7 all the time.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I can -- thank you for that observation,
9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. And I can quite understand what you say.
10 Unfortunately, however, the position is exactly the opposite of what you
11 are -- try to depict it. The Referral Bench is a Bench with which I do
12 not have consultations. I don't have an idea where the Referral Bench is
13 heading, when the Referral Bench will hand down the decision, and it would
14 be highly irregular of me to try and even dare ask for information from
15 the Referral Bench. That you will understand. Particularly since one of
16 the judges in this pre-trial -- composition of this Pre-Trial Chamber also
17 sits in the Referral Bench. He knows, but we don't discuss this. I am
18 the Pre-trial Judge in this case. When there are issues that need to be
19 discussed by the Pre-trial Judges in this case, we discuss them. But of
20 course without any reference to what is happening in the referral, but
21 equally, I don't know how the appeal on severance is going end up, I
22 haven't got a clue and wouldn't even dare ask or try to find out. So
23 that's the position.
24 That being so, my responsibility, as -- under the Rules as a
25 Pre-trial Judge, and that of my colleagues in the Pre-Trial Chamber, is
1 once we have handed down the decision of three days ago, of two days ago,
2 to make sure that we abide by what is required from us by the same rules,
3 and try to prepare the case for trial.
4 If the case finishes here, if there is -- if there is no referral,
5 in other words, then we would have been doing our job at least for a
6 purpose. If the case is referred, then it is not all love's labour lost,
7 if that can be properly -- be translated into French. It's a
8 Shakespearian expression.
9 So this is the position. I can't help you more than this. I mean
10 I will do my duty, my responsibility is to move ahead and push forward the
11 pre-trial proceedings, and try to put everyone en guard to have the
12 trial -- the proceedings ready for trial. Whatever happens, because I
13 don't what's going to happen. And you too.
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, especially me. Me rather
15 more than you, I believe. Because I wanted to say, Your Honour, that I
16 wanted to thank you.
17 Now, if I ask you to do this particular exercise, it's for the
18 following reason: I would rather my client hear from the Trial Chamber
19 and from the Pre-trial Judge what you have just said. That will reassure
20 him much more. It is important to understand that as time goes by it is
21 quite legitimate that he asks himself a question about this, an expedited
22 trial. It is difficult to hear a different people saying different things
23 and now he's heard you and that is a good thing.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. Is there any other matter that you
25 would like to raise? None. Let's go into -- yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, there isn't.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a short while to
3 discuss a few things with the accused.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 126 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: And I would like you to address the other issue that
7 you had started telling us about when we were in private session, and
8 where I said that this should be in open session and not in private
9 session. So besides questions relating to your health and state of
10 detention, what other submissions would you like to make? And
11 unfortunately you will need to repeat somewhat what you had stated
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I wish to say
14 that I stand by my previous statements, and therefore there is no need for
15 me to restate them, as it would amount to repetition.
16 I wish to say that I did not oppose the Prosecutor's request under
17 Rule 11 bis that this matter still remains unresolved, and that I don't
18 think that any additional matters should be raised until -- raised until
19 such time as this specific matter is decided upon.
20 As far as my relationship with my Defence counsel is concerned, I
21 informed the Pre-Trial Chamber thereof in the earlier conferences. I
22 informed the Referral Bench in writing that submissions and filings were
23 made on behalf without previous consultation with me, which I considered
24 inappropriate. There were a number of other inappropriate actions on his
1 I also stated that my communication with my counsel were -- took
2 part in the form of telegrams only, which do not tell me much; besides, I
3 need the assistance of a third person to interpret the substance of these
4 telegrams to me. I informed my Defence counsel of this matter on several
5 occasions. I cautioned him about the fact that he should not be sending
6 me telegrams, and that he should be well aware of how such communication
7 is normally conducted. I don't know under whose jurisdiction this falls,
8 Your Honour, but I wished to raise this matter in a formal manner before
9 the Tribunal to know what my legal representation consists of.
10 I have all of these telegrams before me here, and I offer them to
11 you to take notice of them. Or by your leave, if I can be permitted to
12 read at least three of the most recent ones I received.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: But --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what I wanted to tell you.
15 I thank you for your understanding and patience.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Trbic.
17 So the position as regards representation is a matter that you
18 need to take up with the Registrar of this Tribunal. I think your counsel
19 himself asked to be replaced, and -- because of his conviction that there
20 is a conflict of interest with you when it comes to that. And his request
21 has been turned -- has been turned down. So the last person I would blame
22 at the present moment is Mr. Piletta-Zanin himself.
23 However, if you have further complaints that you are raising I
24 think you need to articulate them so that we are in a position to have our
25 hands on the matter and be able to make an assessment. However, primarily
1 these complaints should be directed to the Registrar of this Tribunal who
2 retains in a way, figuratively speaking, Mr. Piletta-Zanin as your counsel
3 in both this trial, these proceedings, and also I understand before the
4 Referral Bench.
5 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is that correct?
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [No audible response]
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And I don't think I should say anything further than
8 that. Also, because this would be a matter that I would rather discuss
9 with my other two colleagues than alone.
10 So any further submissions? None. So I declare this Status
11 Conference closed here. And we'll have another Status Conference within
12 120 days, or earlier, if the need arises. Thank you.
13 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
14 adjourned at 4.43 p.m.