1 Tuesday, 18 September 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Mitar Vasiljevic.
9 JUDGE HUNT: There's a filing from the Defence which I think
10 Mr. Groome better be in court, perhaps at the end of this witness's
11 evidence, so we can deal with it, about the expert witnesses.
12 Right. Well, you proceed, Mr. Ossogo, please.
13 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 WITNESS: MEVSUD POLJO [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Mr. Ossogo: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Poljo, yesterday we reached a certain point in your testimony,
18 and we're going to go back to the area, geographical area in which you
19 were operating, where you were before the corpses started floating down
20 the Drina, which you noticed first, and then also where were the places
21 where you buried the various bodies that you retrieved from the river in
22 the area of Zepa and more specifically, in the surroundings of Slap.
23 We have an aerial photograph here on which you will be able to
24 show Their Honours these different places.
25 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist us.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Try and get it between the English and the B/C/S
2 booth so that at least somebody from there can see out, would you.
3 Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
4 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Would you please --
6 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's best if you take the other microphone.
7 No, the standing one. Yes. Thank you.
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You told us yesterday that you left your village to go to the Zepa
10 region, and more specifically to Slap, but before starting to retrieve the
11 bodies from the Drina River, you helped persons cross from one bank of the
12 Drina River to the other. Could you show us where you were at that point
13 in time?
14 A. So I crossed from this river bank to this river bank. These small
15 houses that you see here, there were some camps here, and we crossed here
16 for a while in these camps and then --
17 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, please, sir. Let's wait until the
18 usher is out of the way because he's right in our way and we can't see a
19 thing. All right. Now that he's moved that, thank you, you proceed,
21 A. We crossed from this side to the other. There was a camp here
22 next to this small bridge. There's a hanging bridge here. This is a
23 small river. It's called the Zepa, which flows into the Drina here. And
24 there were some camps here, and we kept guard duty for about a month here,
25 roughly along this route, next to this house, this way. These were our
1 positions here.
2 I lived -- I can't show you exactly. Slap is over here. It's
3 about half a kilometre away along this road, and that is where I lived,
4 where I was accommodated.
5 And we pulled out the bodies from the Drina. This is the Drina.
6 Through this pass under the bridge, and we carried them upstream, upstream
7 along the Zepa River, and we pulled them out onto the bank here
8 somewhere. About 1 kilometre upstream from the bridge, roughly here at
9 this location. So roughly here somewhere. And that is where about 170 to
10 180 bodies are buried.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ossogo, what is the number, the Prosecution
12 number on that aerial photograph labelled Slap?
13 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. It's 138 --
14 sorry, 139, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE HUNT: 139-1. We've just been handed it. Thank you very
16 much. Yes.
17 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So could you please indicate which is the Drina River and which is
19 the Zepa River more precisely. Where is the Zepa River, please?
20 A. The Drina is here. This is the Drina, and this is the Zepa, and
21 the Zepa flows into the Drina here, from this little bridge, 50 metres
22 after the bridge, the Zepa flows into the Drina.
23 Q. And the bodies that you retrieved from the river?
24 A. I just wanted to say that there were two bridges on this river.
25 So I don't know what the scale is. One was a hanging bridge, about 50
1 metres from the Drina, and there was another one about two kilometres
2 upstream. It was like a monument bridge with an arch. No. I just
3 remembered now. So this is exactly the bridge down there which is 50
4 metres from the Drina itself, and this is the river. And the location is
5 here where we retrieved the bodies and buried them.
6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. It's now a little muddled as far as I can
7 see. I thought the witness said they actually retrieved them from the
8 Drina and then took them under the bridge and then up to where he now says
9 that he buried them. You better just get that clear from something he
10 said a moment ago.
11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] That is quite correct,
12 Mr. President. That brings me to my next question.
13 Q. From what direction were the bodies coming that you were
14 retrieving. Before you pulled them out and took them up the Zepa River,
15 where were they coming from?
16 A. If Visegrad is here and I suppose it is, then the bodies were
17 around the bend from the Drina River and we could see them at a distance
18 of 1 kilometre. And usually using boats with oars, the boats were here or
19 here in this small river, and we would row these boats up to this point
20 and the bodies would be coming from that direction, and we would catch
21 them here, four or five bodies per boat, with wooden hooks that were
22 nailed to the boat. And those we couldn't catch, they went on down the
24 They were pulled out here, and driven by boat. We would row those
25 boats right up to this burial place where the bodies were buried. They
1 were pulled out here to the shore, and this is where we carried out the --
2 whatever you would call it, this triage or the identification. We tried
3 to see whether they had any identification papers for us to be able to
4 identify them. That is what we did.
5 So each body was picked up here, driven by boat up this river, and
6 I would sit here on an old broken boat. There was a team working here
7 searching the bodies, taking off clothes and other documents, and I would
8 write down, "He was killed in such-and-such a way. He was wearing
9 such-and-such clothes, we found such-and-such documents on him, and so
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Poljo. And when the bodies could not
12 be retrieved for the reasons you gave yesterday, the advanced stage of
13 decomposition of the bodies, in what direction did those bodies move?
14 You showed us what direction they came from, but when you were
15 unable to pull them out, did they continue in the same direction? Would
16 you show the Chamber the direction along which they flowed?
17 A. We would let them flow down the river towards Paocici, Bajina
18 Basta. They went downstream along the Drina.
19 Q. So you're showing the down Stream direction of the river, are
21 A. I think so. I'm not certain I'm reading the map properly, but I
22 think that is so. I'm quite sure that this is that river and that these
23 are those locations. I hope I'm not confused. Maybe Visegrad is down
24 here. But I think it was as I told you, that the bodies were coming from
25 this direction. We would catch five or six. Those we couldn't catch went
1 on flowing down the river -- floating down the river.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Do you need the photograph any more?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Do you need the photograph any more?
6 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Possibly if further clarification are
7 required towards the examination-in-chief or during the cross-examination
8 by the Defence, but for the moment, we don't need it.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, take it down so that the interpreters can
10 see, would you. Thank you.
11 Mr. Ossogo, on the other very large photograph that we've been
12 shown, we were shown the flow of the river, but it obviously did not
13 include the area of Slap. Is there a map either in evidence or to be
14 tendered which shows us the whole of the general terrain so the witness
15 can orient himself properly?
16 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] This is the only aerial photograph
17 that we have, Mr. President. We had some problems with the witness during
18 the proofing. He forgot his glasses, and we had a map with all the names
19 for him to be able to complete this description that he gave on the basis
20 of this photograph. Unfortunately, he forgot his glasses in Bosnia. So
21 this was a risk, as I've said, in showing him this map.
22 JUDGE HUNT: But if you do have some map, surely somewhere in the
23 huge organisation upstairs there's a magnifying glass that will help the
24 witness to read the names on the map. It's just that if there is any
25 problem about this, I don't see one, perhaps we could wait until the
1 cross-examination, but if there is any problem, we want to make absolutely
2 certain that he has his bearings right in relation to that photograph.
3 Let's see what Mr. Domazet does in cross-examination, and if it's
4 necessary, we'll give you an adjournment to enable the witness to have a
5 look at the map with a magnifying glass.
6 Now, you proceed. Thank you.
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. There is a
8 map available, and if necessary, Mr. Poljo can use it, looking at it from
9 a distance, and maybe if he moves it away sufficiently, he will be able to
10 read it, and we can do that.
11 JUDGE HUNT: There comes a time, I'm afraid, when your arms are
12 not long enough to correct your deficiencies in visual acuity.
13 Are you going to tender this photograph that has been used? Is
14 there any objection to that, Mr. Domazet? That's the document marked
16 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. No, Your Honour. I have no objection.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. That will be Exhibit P139.1.
18 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Mr. Poljo, we stopped yesterday at the point when you were
20 indicating the condition of the bodies that you were pulling out of the
21 Drina River, and I was just asking you the type of clothing that could be
22 found on these bodies. Were they civilian clothes, military uniforms, or
23 any other type of clothing?
24 A. As far as military dress is concerned, no military uniforms.
25 There weren't bodies wearing military uniforms. But police uniforms were
1 encountered. I remember one or two bodies clothed in police uniforms.
2 Long coats, I think they were wearing. Something like that. The rest
3 were wearing civilian clothes.
4 Maybe I forgot your question.
5 Q. Thank you. You have answered my question. That was the answer.
6 Did you hear any reference to some bodies identified by you during
7 this operation, did you hear their names mentioned during subsequent
9 A. I don't know what you mean really. Could you explain what exactly
10 you mean? I don't understand your question.
11 Q. Were you asked to participate in the exhumations in order to
12 identify those bodies?
13 A. When? In what time period?
14 Q. After you completed the operation that you have described to us in
16 A. Yes. Maybe a year ago -- I think it was more than a year ago that
17 representatives of the International Community, the police, and some
18 security forces, anyway, they were in jeeps, came to pick me up, and they
19 picked up another guy who lived in this village of Slap, and they asked us
20 if we could remember to show them this grave. And we showed them the
21 location, and these gentlemen took some photographs. I think that two
22 graves or two numbers were dug up, and they were able to see for
23 themselves that there were corpses in those graves. They covered them up
24 again and they left, and I know nothing more about it. I just know that
25 later on, there was another exhumation, that they exhumed some bodies and
1 that they transferred them to Visoko a couple of months ago. I don't
2 remember exactly when that was.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Poljo, for your testimony.
4 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no further
5 questions for this witness.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Mr. Domazet.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Poljo, you said in your testimony regarding
9 the first case, the first body that was noticed around mid-May, which you
10 pulled out of the river, you said that the examination was carried out by
11 the police from Rogatica and the judicial bodies and that you were
12 present. Do you know anything more about the result of their
13 investigation? Did they establish who the person was and how he was
15 A. That first body which came down the Drina, I personally, together
16 with two others, two other locals, we were going hunting for game, and we
17 were going from Slap down the Drina for a couple of kilometres and we
18 noticed this body floating on the river, and we hooked the body to our
19 boat and took it back to Slap. And we called up by telephone from Zepa
20 the police. We called the police in Rogatica to come to carry out the
21 inquest. Some forensic experts arrived, and they carried out the
22 inspection. There was no document on this man. It was a man in his 60s.
23 He had pills on him, as if he was suffering there diabetes. He was a
24 diabetic patient. And they took the report with them to Rogatica, and for
25 10 or 15 days there was no communication with Rogatica, the lines were
1 down, the telephone was down, except for a single radio station that
2 remained in Zepa.
3 Q. So if I understood you correctly, this judicial team of experts
4 did not inform you of any details.
5 A. No, they didn't tell me anything. They packed their bags, got
6 into the car, and left for Rogatica.
7 Q. After that, when the subsequent bodies were pulled out of the
8 river, did you try again to call these people from Rogatica or not to
9 carry out the examination?
10 A. Later on it was not possible to contact Rogatica because there was
11 no electricity, the telephone lines were down, combat operations started,
12 and people were fleeing Rogatica; that is, the Muslim population fled to
14 The lines, the front lines, were already formed around Zepa, and
15 the defence of Zepa, the defence lines around Zepa had already been
17 Q. Mr. Poljo, you said today that you were able to see the bodies
18 roughly a kilometre away from the spot where you stood; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that is correct. We would usually see the bodies from the
20 houses in Slap. This may be even more than a kilometre away if we were
21 looking from where the camps were where we kept guard duty. So we watched
22 the time. It took the body about one hour to float to where we were.
23 Nobody measured this distance, but that is an indication for you. They
24 would reach us an hour later. The Drina was not a very fast-flowing
1 Q. That was going to be my next question and that is why I asked you
2 about the distance. So it took about one hour from the moment the body
3 was spotted for it to reach you and to be pulled out. I see.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigator, you said that
6 during the first week, you didn't pull out bodies and that ten or so
7 bodies floated by without you pulling them out, and that after that first
8 week you started retrieving the bodies; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. More than ten bodies went by. Bodies were passing in
10 daytime and night-time. We couldn't see them during the night, and I am
11 saying what we saw during the daytime. And I'm sure that more bodies went
12 by. And if you're interested in a figure, I think between 500 and 600
13 bodies floated down the river, because once when the rain was pouring
14 heavily and the river was high, we saw 20 to 30 bodies, and there was one
15 guy who managed to pull out four or five because he was brave, and all the
16 rest went by. There was livestock floating down. There was some
17 furniture, TV sets. Probably those bodies had been thrown into a smaller
18 river and when the water level rose, the tributaries -- the bodies from
19 the tributaries appeared in the Drina itself.
20 Q. I was just going to ask that, because yesterday you said that
21 according to your estimate, you pulled out only 20 per cent of the corpses
22 from the Drina. So I was going to ask how come you managed to retrieve
23 only such a small percentage if you were on duty constantly on the Drina
24 banks. So is this the explanation?
25 A. I think so. I never tried to calculate the percentage. I was on
1 guard one night, and I would pull out a body or two with the boat. It was
2 a terrible job. And I did so mostly because I had two brothers and an
3 uncle working up there in various companies, but I'm quite sure that many
4 more floated by. Between 500 and 600. I'm quite sure to this day there
5 are bodies there. Those bodies got caught in the branches, among the
6 stones, and when the water level rose, some of these bodies got unhooked
7 and started floating again. The stench was so terrible that you really
8 couldn't stand it, and we didn't touch those who were totally decomposed.
9 We let them float by.
10 This is really not something to joke about, but there was a body
11 that we pulled out among a group of four or five, and when we started the
12 search, there were no documents on him. Then these four or five men were
13 working on this, and when they took off his trousers, he had a jogging
14 suit underneath, and on this body they found some money, new -- a couple
15 of new banknotes with the words "Branch office Banja Luka" on them. And
16 in his other pocket -- his pockets were chequerboard, like the Croatian
17 flag, and in one pocket there was a piece of -- double piece of paper with
18 poems written on them. The man may have been a poet, or when he had a
19 drink too many he was forced to sing. And the poem was about Alija,
20 "Alija with a red fez, you will eat pork meat and you will disappear with
21 the seed of Muslims. Korturinci [phoen] are the best guys. They're not
22 afraid of knives because they have seven centimetre thick skin." Then one
23 of us said, "Look, he could be a Serb," because he wasn't circumcised.
24 And then they said, "Throw him into the Drina. He's a Serb." And we kept
25 him under the water for a day and night. Then there were all kind of
1 suggestions that he should be sent to Bajina Basta. We hooked him to a
2 tree, and we thought maybe we could exchange him if he was a Serb or
3 Croat. And somebody unhooked him the next day or the water unhooked him
4 and he went down the river. This was a bit funny, you see.
5 Q. As far as I understood, you kept guard duty on the Drina banks
6 round the clock, not because of the bodies but because you were on guard
7 duty and this applied to you and the other people with you?
8 A. Yes. When I crossed the Drina River, when Sabanovic released
9 the water from the dam, I was at home watching television and I saw the
10 water being released - I don't know how many days later it was that I
11 crossed the river, and for a month later there were no other bodies and I
12 was on guard duty. And when we saw the bodies, I made the suggestion and
13 asked the others to join, that if we can't help our own people, our
14 neighbours in any other way, then we should at least try to bury them
15 properly so they would know where their graves are.
16 Afterwards, I was released from guard duty, and I worked on
17 this -- I don't know whether you call it exhumation, but I took down
18 the notes. One team was pulling out the bodies, another was searching
19 them, and I was taking down the notes, and that was my work duty all
20 summer. I was away for a few days. I went to Krusev Dol looking for
21 food, but otherwise I was there. That was the period I was absent for.
22 Q. Thank you. Your answer is broader than my question. My question
23 was whether you were on guard duty day and night, and you said yes. You
24 said or you're telling me now that you tried to pull out bodies during the
25 night as well.
1 A. Yes. It would happen at night-time, too, but we did most of the
2 retrieval in the morning and in the evening because there was shelling. A
3 couple of times this man, who pulled out 50 per cent of the bodies, and he
4 was exposed to shelling during the daytime. Sometimes at night, too, if
5 the guards noticed anything, and in the morning when it was still misty we
6 did most of the retrieval.
7 Q. When you -- yesterday when you spoke about somebody's dead came in
8 sheets or blankets, and in answer to the question of the Prosecution
9 whether this was from an institution or a hotel, you said that there was
10 talk about this, and in the discussion it was said that it was possible
11 that they were from there, but you weren't sure about it. As far as I
12 could understand, you had no material evidence about the origin of those
13 blankets, if I understood you well.
14 A. Yes. As for the first body, the female body wrapped up in a
15 blanket, well, I think that I saw some of these blankets in the room of
16 Amir Suceska, that he had similar blankets in his room. About the others,
17 well, I was not quite sure, because we didn't really look. It was
18 necessary to remove the female person as quickly as possible so as not to
19 be seen by her family.
20 Q. Mr. Poljo, all these bodies that went down the Drina, where did
21 they originate from? Where could they have come from?
22 A. From the direction of Visegrad. That is where they were coming
24 Q. Is it possible that they could have come from Foca?
25 A. Well, there was a dam there in Visegrad. Well, what we could see,
1 and I know Visegrad quite well, that many bodies came from my place. I
2 worked there for quite some time, and I know many of the inhabitants
3 personally. There were people from Zupa. Fifty per cent of men and women
4 from Zepa were there, and when the bodies would be coming, they'd come and
5 try to identify members of their family if there were no documents there.
6 Q. Mr. Poljo, as far as I can understand, you had identified some of
7 the bodies, that you recognised some of them, and that you recognised them
8 as people from Visegrad and the area. But my question was: Was it
9 possible -- can you exclude the possibility that some of these bodies had
10 come from Foca or Gorazde and the surrounding settlements? Can you rule
11 out that possibility or not?
12 A. Well, I remember a body. There was a soldier who was from the
13 JNA. He had done his military service, and he stayed longer -- he
14 prolonged -- he stayed there for four months, and there we have some kind
15 of document on him. I forgot his name. And he came as far as Visegrad by
16 bus. He had a ticket. And in that paper, it said that he was released
17 and also members of his family actually were free from any form of
18 mobilisation. This young man was wearing civilian clothes. I think it
19 was jeans he was wearing, slacks, and a jeans jacket, as far as I
20 remember, and that he was from Rogatica. That he was from Rogatica, I can
21 remember that. I cannot remember all the details.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Poljo. I have no further questions for you.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Mr. Ossogo?
24 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Just a point of clarification.
25 Re-examined by Mr. Ossogo:
1 Q. Mr. Poljo, you have -- you stated yesterday that there were two
2 bodies --
3 A. I cannot hear.
4 Q. I shall recommence. Can you hear me now?
5 A. Not very well.
6 JUDGE HUNT: See what you can do.
7 A. Can I have some other earphones, please?
8 JUDGE HUNT: Give the witness the original ones he was using.
9 A. I can hear better.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Can you hear it? Can you hear now, sir?
11 A. Yes, I can hear very well. Thank you.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Proceed, Mr. Ossogo.
13 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Mevsud, in your statement of yesterday, you said that there
15 were two bodies of young women coming from Lasci, a place not far from the
16 Hotel Vilina Vlas, and the bodies of these women were wrapped up in sheets
17 and could have belonged -- these sheets could have belonged to that
18 hotel. Is that what you said yesterday?
19 A. Yes, I said that, but I'm not sure about the others, about the two
20 women from that hotel. This is hearsay, actually, because the blankets
21 were different from those that I had seen first. The colour wasn't the
22 same, and some said that the women that had come, that they had come from
23 a place above the Hotel Vilina Vlas and they had to pass through there.
24 And on the basis of that story, I concluded that they could have been
25 those. And one of them was wearing clothes from that village. Then I
1 would have thought that these persons, that they could have been, in fact,
2 detained in Vilina Vlas Hotel.
3 Q. Well, you indicate -- you had stated that there were sheets and
4 not blankets. There is a difference between the two.
5 A. Well, for me, blankets are the same as sheets. Well, perhaps you
6 thought of bed linen. Is that what you had in mind? I don't know what
7 exactly you were referring to.
8 Q. Yes, that is right. In the translation we had, the word
9 "blankets" was mentioned, but in fact, what were they wrapped up in, the
10 bodies, in sheets or blankets? Blankets are heavy and sheets are light.
11 A. In blankets, in two blankets. They were rolled up in them, and
12 this was tied up with wire.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No further questions, Mr. President.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE JANU: Mr. Poljo, you said you were keeping some notes
17 about -- you were describing those bodies from the river. Can you tell me
18 what happened with those notebooks or notes and other objects which were
19 collected on the bodies?
20 A. Well, that notebook remained in Slap, in the home -- buried in the
21 yard in the house where I was living, in the house of Jusuf Begovic,
22 Ibrahim Begovic. It was a pail. I think It was a tin pail. Perhaps oil
23 had been in it before. About 25 litres could fit in. In that pail, when
24 these documents were dried during the day, we put that -- those documents
25 inside. The pail was in the cellar. When the military operations took
1 place in Zepa, I was on guard, and a messenger came and told me that we
2 could not defend Zepa, that the Serb forces were coming in from the
3 direction of Rogatica and the whole population had to be evacuated in the
4 direction of Srebrenica. I came back home at 12.30 at night. My wife
5 wrote a note to me and said that she had gone near -- in the direction of
6 Sarina Bukva. It was a mountain in the direction of Srebrenica.
7 Well, I took a jacket then, and I took my rifle, and found them
8 near Krusev Dol. And people were there at 1.00 in the morning. Most
9 people had left Zepa and they went to Srebrenica and Krusev Dol, in the
10 mountains where the positions were.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, the question was: Do you know where the
12 notebooks are now? Have you seen them since you put them in the pail in
14 A. Yes. I left and I spent three days in the mountains. In Zepa, no
15 one was there, neither the Serb forces nor our forces. There was no one
16 in Zepa at the time. And in the mountains, we were debating whether to go
17 back, who should go back or not go back. We who were refugees, we did not
18 want to go back to Zepa. We wanted to go to Tuzla and Srebrenica. The
19 bravest indeed went back during the night, took food in Zepa and brought
20 it to the mountains again.
21 Ibrahim, my boss, he went back, and some other young persons from
22 my area and stayed there, but I did not want to go back with my family,
23 with my brother's family, my parents. My father and brother went there.
24 They took the cow in the direction of the forest, in the direction of
1 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you again. Now, look,
2 please. This question may be answered yes or no and then you may be asked
3 another one. Have you seen those notes since you put them in the pail?
4 A. No. I never saw them again because I didn't go back.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Have you heard what happened to them?
6 A. Never. Yes, I did hear what happened to them. This gentleman
7 told me, whose house I lived in, who went back. And my father, my
8 father's name was Ibro, and was the house of Ibrahim. And when this
9 messenger came telling them they had to leave the village, they took the
10 bucket from the cellar, and they dug it next to a walnut tree. That is
11 what my father told me. And later on, when he moved to Kakanj, he died
12 afterwards, they told me where they had buried this bucket. And the
13 people from International Community, when they came, they asked me whether
14 I could indicate the place, and we went there. We tried to find it in two
15 different places. It was very hot. We didn't have the proper digging
16 machinery. It was overgrown, the area, so I was unable to indicate the
17 exact spot for us to be able to find it.
18 JUDGE JANU: Thank you. Yes. I understood that information
19 couldn't be used in any way.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, do you want to ask any questions arising
21 out of that?
22 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
23 JUDGE HUNT: How about you, Mr. Ossogo?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, mike.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Microphone.
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Re-examined by Mr. Ossogo:
3 Q. Just a moment ago you referred to a map which might complement the
4 information obtained from Exhibit 139.1. We have a map here --
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Ossogo, there's no cross-examination about
6 that so there's no challenge to his evidence. So there's no need to worry
7 about that. Thank you.
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. Thank
9 you. No questions for our part.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming to give evidence and for
11 the evidence which you gave. You are now free to leave.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a question?
13 JUDGE HUNT: You may ask it. I don't know whether we will be able
14 to answer it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are here from the whole world to
16 provide questions nicely and fairly for everyone. What I would like to
17 know, it appears here that only Vasiljevic is on trial. Do you know that
18 in the municipality of Visegrad there were both Serbs and Muslims killed,
19 numbering 2.500 to 3.000? So is it only this one man whom you have
20 arrested and brought here or something else is at stake?
21 JUDGE HUNT: We do know something of the numbers who were killed
22 and it is matter of great importance. There are other people charged.
23 The problem is this Tribunal has no power to go out and arrest them. It
24 relies upon SFOR and similar agencies to make the arrests; for example,
25 the authorities of Republika Srpska. Republika Srpska has never arrested
1 anybody for us, and SFOR has varying bursts of enthusiasm. But you can be
2 assured that there are other people who have been charged. How many, I
3 don't know.
4 Mr. Vasiljevic is on trial in this case alone simply because we do
5 not have the other people arrested and in our custody, and we are
6 attempting, as I understand it, to follow up on two other persons who have
7 been seen in the municipality of Visegrad. But we understand your
8 concern, sir, and that is one of the problems with the way in which the
9 United Nations has set up this Tribunal. Unfortunately, we are unable to
10 change that.
11 I hope that explains your concerns.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. If that is just one man, he
13 couldn't have killed or massacred so many chicks. I'm not referring to
14 Vasiljevic in person, but for a single person it would take two years to
15 kill that many people, to beat up and mutilate people. So it's not just a
16 question of killing with firearms. There were people who were beaten and
17 tortured for days. I could beat up two men today and the next day I
18 couldn't beat anyone. So every other person was beaten up, which means
19 there are a large number of people who are responsible.
20 I never dreamt in 1992 that I would be coming here. I feel a bit
21 awkward, embarrassed because of Vasiljevic himself. We know each other.
22 We would sit together and have a drink together. His wife worked with
23 me. We were colleagues from work.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir. We understand that. You have given
25 evidence in this case about matters other than those which concern
1 Mr. Vasiljevic personally, but we understand your embarrassment, and we
2 are very grateful for you having come. And as I say, you are now free to
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Groome, have you seen the filing by
7 Mr. Domazet in relation to your expert witnesses?
8 MR. GROOME: No, I have not, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it was filed yesterday.
10 MR. GROOME: We have been finding it takes --
11 JUDGE HUNT: And even I got mine this morning and I'm usually one
12 of the last to get them. But Anyway, he takes the point, which is a valid
13 one, that you have not complied with Rule 94 bis in that the documents
14 must be filed 21 days before it is expected the witness will give
16 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Dr. de Grave's report was filed on the 31st of
18 August, so that would make this Thursday the earliest he could give
19 evidence. Dr. Clark and Ms. Tabeau were filed on the 11th of
20 September. Now, normally I would say to Mr. Domazet, "How long do you
21 really need?" But I would be fearful of doing that unless it was by
22 consent, because there was a decision last year, I think it was last year
23 by the Appeals Chamber, which interpreted this group of rules permitting reports
24 to be filed or written statements to be filed as if it was part of the American
25 constitution, it I may say so, with all due respect to the Appeals
1 Chamber, which had to be complied with strictly and there was no way in
2 which you could apply Rule 127, for example, to extend or shorten the
3 time. That indeed was the reason why Rule 92 bis, at the very end of it,
4 has an express provision which says, "Unless otherwise ordered, something
5 must be done in so many days."
6 So may I suggest that you speak to Mr. Domazet or somebody from
7 the Prosecution team, see if there can be some reshuffling of the
8 witnesses so that Mr. Domazet does have sufficient time to consider them
9 and to consult his experts.
10 Dr. de Grave's evidence will be given only one day early, but if
11 he's given one day early, and the Appeals Chamber follows its previous
12 decision, we will all be in trouble.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have had some discussions with Mr.
14 Domazet, if I could inform the Court --
15 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want to know what they are, but this is the
16 very sort of thing that Mr. Domazet can consent to the witnesses being
17 called earlier than 21 days from the filing. He in fact says he was only
18 given the expertise of Dr. de Grave on the 11th of September, but I'm not
19 sure how that could be so because it was filed on the 31st and those
20 documents are faxed usually or put in the Defence box downstairs the same
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, one of the things we have been
23 discussing would require approval from the Court and that would be
24 regarding Ms. Tabeau, and that would be to take her direct testimony this
25 week and allow Mr. Domazet additional time before he conducts his
2 JUDGE HUNT: We can't -- we can't consent to that because of this
3 decision of the Appeals Chamber. It's -- it's a little unreal, if I may
4 say so, in the present circumstances, because at the time that that
5 decision was given, Rule 90 provided that subject to the Rules relating to
6 depositions and videolink evidence, witnesses shall, in principle, be
7 heard directly by the Chambers. Now, that has been repealed or deleted,
8 and Rule 89(F) expresses it in a slightly more generous way. "A Chamber
9 may receive the evidence of a witness orally or where the interests of
10 justice allow in written form."
11 That was to take away the preeminence, if I may put it that way,
12 of oral evidence. But this is a very interesting issue, and one day it
13 will have to be resolved, but I hope it's not going to be in this case as
14 to whether that decision of the Appeals Chamber still applies in the light
15 of that alteration of the Rules. It's not the sort of thing which, if I
16 may say so, we should have to resolve in a case such as this where we can
17 give you time to call these witnesses later.
18 It's been suggested to me by those who know more than I do about
19 what's going on in Trial Chamber II at the moment that we have an awful
20 lot on our plates. My two colleagues here, fortunately don't have to
21 worry about it but I certainly do, and if it means that you will not have
22 enough witnesses to sit for example, this Friday, we need not sit on
23 Friday because I am told that I will be kept busy all day doing other
24 work, if that will help you.
25 MR. GROOME: That will help us greatly, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: But my primary suggestion is that you and Mr. Domazet
2 sort out how long he really needs, and hopefully Mr. Domazet, who seems to
3 be very cooperative mostly, and properly looking after his client's
4 interests, if he can say how long he really needs in order to prepare to
5 deal with Ms. Tabeau and Dr. Clark, then you may get an agreement to call
6 them earlier than the 21 days from the 11th of September, when their
7 reports were filed.
8 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll speak with Mr. Domazet
9 at the break.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I think that will be a very good idea.
11 Right. Well, next witness. Is VG59 your witness, Mr. Groome?
12 Mr. Ossogo. I see.
13 I'm sorry to have brought you down, Mr. Groome, but I thought this
14 was a matter that was necessary to be resolved now so far as it can be.
15 MR. GROOME: I apologise for being absent.
16 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. I've said to you, you needn't be here all
17 time. I was counsel for 20 years and I think I know just what is involved
18 in preparation for a trial of this length.
19 Yes, so now we've got Witness VG59. Yes, bring him in, would you
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you make the solemn declaration in the
23 form of the document which is being handed to you by the usher?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
2 WITNESS: WITNESS VG59
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym document will be Exhibit 76, P76, and
5 it is under seal.
6 Yes, Mr. Ossogo.
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examined by Mr. Ossogo:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Could the witness examine the information on this
10 piece of paper containing his pseudonym as well as a certain number of
12 A. Yes, it's fine.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Have you explained to him?
14 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I was just going to do that,
15 Mr. President.
16 Q. VG59, the information contained on this piece of paper, don't,
17 please, use the names of towns or the names of persons. You will simply
18 give us the relationship you have with those persons as well as the letter
19 of the alphabet. Do you understand that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Regarding the names of towns and villages, the letters of the
22 alphabet. As for the relationship, you will simply tell us how you are
23 related to a person, brother, sister, or whatever. And as regards one
24 particular relationship, you will say VG104. Do you understand that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Sorry, VG64. 64, not 104.
2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I'm now a little lost, Mr. Ossogo. If he
3 wishes to refer to the person who has that relationship to him, does he
4 refer to him by the relationship or by the pseudonym or by the name?
5 Obviously not the name.
6 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] That is correct. This applies to
7 only one particular relative.
8 JUDGE HUNT: But does he refer to her by the pseudonym VG64 or by
9 the relationship?
10 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] We have indicated here the
11 relationship. So we have told him that he should use the pseudonym.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it's probably too late now, but I would have
13 suggested that they should have been in reverse order, with the
14 relationship first and the pseudonym second, and then it would be
15 consistent with all the others. As long as we all understand what it is
16 he has to do, and more importantly, if the witness understands what he has
17 to do.
18 So if he wants to refer to the person who has that relationship in
19 the second line, he refers to her by the pseudonym VG64 and does not refer
20 to the relationship she has with him. Is that so?
21 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes. Exactly, Mr. President.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness 59, for being at the disposal of the Chamber
23 this morning to testify about the facts you experienced and which we will
24 review in some detail.
25 VG59, in 1989, were you a reserve police officer in the region
1 that is indicated as region P?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was this police unit in charge of?
4 A. It engaged in the training regarding weapons, and it got together
5 once a month.
6 Q. Was this unit subsequently mobilised?
7 A. On the 24th of September, 1991, it was in active duty.
8 Q. Have you done your obligatory military service in the 1970s?
9 A. Yes. On the 11th of November, 1976, and I was discharged on the
10 18th of January, 1978.
11 Q. And during your military service, did you learn how to handle
12 weapons as well as how to identify various firearms?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When did the members of the JNA enter your village?
15 A. The Uzice Corps of the JNA entered at the end of April, and it
16 left Visegrad on the 19th of May, 1992.
17 Q. After the Uzice Corps left, was there trouble in your village?
18 A. After the Uzice Corps had left, problems arose in my village. A
19 group of Serbs appeared that called themselves the White Eagles. At least
20 that is how they introduced themselves to us.
21 One day - it was in the afternoon - a group of White Eagles
22 arrived and people called -- of A1 were assembled in the house of VG64.
23 Q. This group of White Eagles, as you said, consisted of how many
25 A. I noticed about ten of them.
1 Q. Did you identify a particular person who could have been the
2 leader of the group?
3 A. Not immediately, but I saw this Mitar Vasiljevic, who stood at the
4 door of the house. He had a red ribbon on his left shoulder. He was
5 armed with an automatic rifle.
6 Q. To go back to the exact date, could you give us the month and
7 possibly the date itself, if you can remember, and the year of course?
8 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but this was after the Uzice
9 Corps had left. So it would be the end of May 1992.
10 Q. As you said a moment ago, you noticed the presence of Mitar
11 Vasiljevic among this group. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What was he doing in this group? What did they exactly do when
14 they came?
15 A. He played the part of a guard so that none of us would leave the
16 house, and the other Eagles were looting the houses.
17 Q. How was he dressed?
18 A. He was wearing black trousers and some sort of black jacket.
19 Q. Was he also wearing the red ribbon that you mentioned a moment
21 A. Yes, on his left shoulder.
22 Q. Was he armed?
23 A. Yes, with an automatic rifle.
24 Q. Were you able to identify the type of weapon?
25 A. It was an automatic rifle.
1 Q. How were you able to identify it?
2 A. Because I'm quite familiar with that weapon.
3 Q. Did he speak to you or to anyone else at that particular moment?
4 A. He didn't speak to me, but he did speak to my brother. He asked
5 him whether anyone was hiding in the attic, and he said that he would be
6 the first to go up to the attic and let Mitar follow him to make sure
7 that there was no one there. So Mitar believed him that there was no one
8 in the attic.
9 Q. Did he speak to your older brother or any other of your brothers?
10 A. To my older brother.
11 Q. Did they actually go to check whether anyone was hiding in the
13 A. No. Mitar believed what he heard, that there was no one there.
14 Q. Was he aggressive?
15 A. No.
16 Q. What did you feel seeing him armed with an automatic rifle?
17 A. He told us that they were looking for a certain Avdo who had
18 killed a Serb woman and two children and that they were searching the
19 houses to arrest him, and I believed him.
20 Q. Did you know Mitar Vasiljevic before you met on this occasion?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Under which circumstances did you know him?
23 A. We went to school together. Actually, he went to school with my
24 brother. They were in the eighth grade and I was in the seventh grade. I
25 knew him as a waiter too. I would often visit his bar where he worked,
1 and he would serve at my table on innumerable occasions.
2 Q. For how long were you together in the same school?
3 A. For four years.
4 Q. Where was this school?
5 A. In B.
6 Q. Did you maintain good relations with him? Were you on good terms
7 with him as neighbours or comrades or friends?
8 A. Could you explain the question for me, please? You said good
9 neighbourly relations or schoolmates? What was your question?
10 Q. While you were at school together and possibly did you have any
11 relationship outside school?
12 A. We were on very good terms.
13 Q. You said that he was a waiter.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In which cafe?
16 A. He worked in the Panos catering enterprise, which had several
17 facilities. He worked in the hotel, in the Panos restaurant, in the
18 Mezalin cafe also known as Cadza, and that is where I went to most often,
19 because nearby, VG64 worked.
20 Q. What did you do as a rule? Did you take coffee or a drink while
21 he was working?
22 A. When I was not away on business, I would always go to his place
23 waiting for him -- waiting for VG64 to complete her job, to come out of
25 Q. Did you meet him only in this cafe or in other coffee shops or
1 other places where he worked later?
2 A. We would often meet in the street. He always went to work on
3 foot, and he would pass by my company, which was right on the road. So we
4 would meet as he went to work, as we went to work.
5 Q. Did he continue to work in the same place or was he assigned to
6 other coffee shops?
7 A. He worked for about half a year in the Cadza coffee shop and then
8 he was moved to some other catering establish. I don't know which one.
9 JUDGE HUNT: It's 11.00. We will adjourn now and resume at
11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ossogo.
14 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
15 Q. VG59, we shall resume our interrogation. We were speaking about
16 your relationship with Mr. Vasiljevic, and you provided some information
17 about him, indicating that you knew him.
18 Now I'd like to go back to the first incident which you had to
19 deal with. Can you be perhaps more specific and tell us in which house,
20 in whose house you were found yourself, yourself and other people, and how
21 many were there in that house when you were visited by the group of the
22 White Eagles?
23 A. We were in the house of my father. Well, between 25 and 30 people
24 were confined there, including women and children and younger and older
1 Q. Were you exposed to -- all of you or some of you to harassment or
2 any form of violence?
3 A. I and all of us who were in that house, we were not mistreated by
5 Q. After the group had left your village, did you note the
6 disappearance of some of your personal property?
7 A. Yes. When I came home, I found VG64, who was crying, and I asked
8 her what the matter was, and she said, "They found our money, and they
9 took it away."
10 Q. The other people that were with you, did they complain? Did they
11 have similar grievances?
12 A. Yes. Many of them told me that money had disappeared and
13 jewellery had disappear, but I don't know how much.
14 Q. The day following that first incident, was there another group
15 that visited you?
16 A. Two days later, the same group returned, headed by Milan Lukic,
17 who, during the first incident, had promised us that we should go back to
18 our everyday business, and if we were to note some unknown persons, that
19 we should report them to their patrols.
20 In the second incident, they came, Milan and his people. They
21 came in the afternoon hours when people were with their livestock in the
22 pastures. Then they took away nine of my neighbours, either from the
23 field or took them out of houses. And even today we have no information
24 about those neighbours. There is no trace of them.
25 Q. Mitar Vasiljevic, was he a member of the group that had visited
1 you on that second occasion?
2 A. During the second incident, I did not see Mitar, but I assumed he
3 was there because he belonged to that group.
4 Q. Could you tell us the names of the nine men who were taken away?
5 A. Well, I can say -- I can tell you their names and surnames if the
6 Court so allows.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Are any of these protected people?
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Not as far as we
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, you go ahead and give us their names and
11 surnames if you are able to do so, please.
12 A. Adil Vatres, and his brother-in-law Muhamed Hodzic, Uzeir Vila and
13 his son Suljo Vila, Mustafa Vila and his son Nermin Vila, Kasim Murtic,
14 Rasim Sehic and his son Enver Sehic, nicknamed Kender.
15 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
16 Q. After having taken away these nine men, in what direction did the
17 group move?
18 A. That group went in the direction of B.
19 Q. On that occasion, did you note that some personal property,
20 belongings were missing?
21 A. No.
22 Q. On a different occasion, your brother and yourself, were you
23 forced to go in a certain direction? Were you forced to move in a certain
25 A. Yes, but this occurred during the third incident when the whole
1 local population of A1, A2, A3 were rounded up in the house of my
2 neighbour. If it is necessary, I can quote his name and surname.
3 One of the members of the White Eagles put a handkerchief on the
4 floor and ordered us to take all the money and jewellery from our pockets
5 and put it on that handkerchief. I was holding on to my daughter, and I
6 took off her earrings and put it on that handkerchief. Afterwards, ten
7 minutes later, a man of an average height, thin in the face, very
8 pronounced black moustache, enter the house, and his nickname was
9 Crnogorac. He ordered me and my brother to follow him.
10 Q. Where did you go?
11 A. Well, we went in the direction of Vilina Vlas.
12 Q. What is Vilina Vlas? Is that a private home?
13 A. It is a hotel. Vilina Vlas is a hotel.
14 Q. And what happened there?
15 A. When we came to the reception of the hotel, I saw a big black
16 flag, and on it was a skull where it said, "We trust in God for King and
17 Motherland." We were forced to kiss the flag three times and to cross
18 ourselves three times. Then we were taken to the ground floor of the
19 hotel. We passed through a corridor, and we were confined in a room which
20 was about nine to ten square metres, where there were no windows. So it
21 was difficult to breathe.
22 In that room, I saw four of my neighbours from the neighbouring
23 village who were tied with wire, with their hands behind their backs.
24 Q. VG59, the flag, what sort of flag was that? Which country did it
25 belong to? To which ethnic group? Can you give us some features of that
1 flag as you had seen the flag upon entering the hotel?
2 A. Well, I never seen a flag like that in the whole world, and I
3 suppose that it was a Chetnik flag with a skull on it so as to intimidate
4 the population there.
5 Q. Have you already heard or seen the words that were written on the
6 flag and that were around this skull?
7 A. Yes, I did. Around the head, the skull -- these were the words
8 written around the skull.
9 Q. Do you know the exact contents of those words or do you remember
11 A. Yes. I know what was written on the flag, but what the meaning
12 for them was, I do not know.
13 Q. It was said actually, "We trust in God, for King and Motherland"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now to go back to the four people you found there and you knew
16 therein in the Vilina Vlas Hotel, in the room without windows. Could you
17 perhaps tell us their names?
18 A. Yes, I can. Bajro Murtic, Ibrahim Murtic, Bajro's son; Mehmed
19 Menzilovic, Ismet Menzilovic.
20 Q. What happened subsequently in that room where you were confined?
21 A. In that room, we were closed in that room. We were confined
22 there. And no one came to our door during the whole night. The room was
23 so small for five, actually, six people, we sat throughout the night.
24 In the morning when the doors were opened, I noticed that dawn had
25 already broken, and two soldiers came. They were wearing on their heads
1 caps called Sajkaca. One was blonde and had a big blonde beard. He swore
2 at our Turkish mothers, although we are not Turks. He asked where Murat
3 was, for whom we had voted. We told him that we did not know where Murat
4 was. They told us, "You aren't speaking now, but you will speak on red
5 coal," and then they went away.
6 Q. Who is this Murat you voted for?
7 A. No, I didn't vote for Murat. Murat is a person -- if you remember
8 the incident regarding the electric power station and dam in Visegrad, he
9 was the one who wanted to blow it up.
10 Q. Which ethnic group did he belong to?
11 A. He was a Muslim.
12 Q. After having passed the night in the Hotel Vilina Vlas, were you
13 visited the next day in your room, other than the visit of the two
14 soldiers the day before?
15 A. Yes. Sredoje Lukic visited us, as well as Niko Vujicic, whom I
16 knew very well. They were policemen -- they were policemen in Visegrad.
17 They asked me who had brought me and why they had brought me. I simply
18 answered I did not know. For that reason, that Milan Lukic was a close
19 relative of Sredoje Lukic.
20 They asked us if we had had breakfast, and we answered that they
21 hadn't, and then they went away.
22 Q. Did they return subsequently, later on?
23 A. Yes, they did. They did come back. They came back in the
24 afternoon, and they took me away. They took me to an office on the floor
25 above to question me about who in village A had weapons, who had weapons
1 in village A. I told him who had weapons there. They asked me who had
2 fired at their patrol a few days before. I told them that I didn't know,
3 because no one could have fired because the army had rounded up and
4 disarmed the whole local population.
5 Q. Did you spend some more time in the Hotel Vilina Vlas or were you
7 A. After that interview, I was returned there. I was returned to the
8 hotel, in the room where we had been confined, but they told me before
9 that that they would let me go. And I told them that my brother was also
10 confined there, and they told me that they would release both me and my
12 About two hours later, Sredoje Lukic came again, and Niko Vujicic,
13 too, and they told me, me and my brother, that we could go out and --
14 through the corridor and exit, that we could sit in a white Volkswagen
15 whose previous owner was Himzo Demir, who was director of the secondary
16 school centre. They, I must admit, took us home again.
17 When we got home, we had a cup of coffee, and they told us, "Don't
18 allow them to capture you again because we might not be able to help you
19 in that case."
20 Q. And then where did you go?
21 A. I spent another two days at home. So did my brother. After two
22 days, at about 10.30 in the evening, we swam across the Drina River and
23 reached the left bank of the Drina where it was safe.
24 Q. Did the Office of the Prosecutor show you photographs so that you
25 could identify the persons on the photographs?
1 A. I didn't quite understand the question. What do you mean when we
2 spoke? You mean in the courtroom or somewhere else?
3 Q. When you were visited by an investigator of the Office of the
4 Prosecutor, did he show you photographs on which you recognised one
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We're going to show them to you so that you can confirm whether
8 this photo array was indeed the one shown to you at the time.
9 A. Yes, it is. These are the same photographs.
10 Q. Which one did you recognise, the one you're pointing at?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As for the Chamber, perhaps it better to show it on the ELMO?
13 JUDGE HUNT: Does it contain a signature that would identify the
15 A. I signed on the back side, Mr. President.
16 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] The signature is on the back side,
17 and it is Exhibit 55-VG59, which has already been admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Has it? Not according to my records.
19 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Would you please show the Chamber the person that you identified?
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. Who is it?
23 A. Mitar Vasiljevic.
24 Q. Could you look around the courtroom? Is he here in the courtroom?
25 A. Yes, he is.
1 Q. Where?
2 A. In the last row over there, wearing a white shirt. You can just
3 see his collar.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Now, are you going to tender that document? It's not
6 in evidence yet.
7 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. It is
8 55.VG13, VG13.
9 JUDGE HUNT: That is in evidence then.
10 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Mr. President, we have no further questions for this witness.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when you were describing what you yourself
15 called the first incident which occurred towards the end of May when this
16 group arrived in your village for the first time and when you saw, among
17 others, Mitar Vasiljevic; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It was a bit unclear in your answer when you were asked who led
20 that group. Was that Milan Lukic?
21 A. Yes. While Mitar was standing at the doorway in the role of
22 guard, after a certain amount of time, Milan Lukic appeared with a black
23 hat on his head. He was armed with a light machine-gun, M52, and he told
24 us that we were free to go back to our daily chores. One of our
25 neighbours asked whether they could look after their livestock.
1 Q. Please will you answer my questions, because I think what you're
2 saying now is something that occurred later, when the whole village
3 assembled. Isn't that right?
4 A. No. This occurred during the first incident, in the first
6 Q. Yes, during the first incident, but let me clear it up, if I can.
7 You had this conversation at home first when the whole village was not
8 assembled there. There were members of your family with Milan Lukic and
9 Mitar Vasiljevic at the doorway. Am I right?
10 A. You are.
11 Q. And it was only later, at the request of Milan Lukic, one of your
12 men, one of your people went to call the other locals and they got
13 together in that house; isn't that right?
14 A. I don't know who went, but I personally, my wife and children,
15 were brought to this house.
16 Q. Did you arrive before the other locals to that house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you arrived, who was already in the house, in that room?
19 A. My father, my brother, my sister-in-law, my brother's children, my
21 Q. And there was also Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic in the
22 doorway. Isn't that right?
23 A. Mitar Vasiljevic was in the doorway first, and then about ten
24 minutes later, Milan Lukic arrived as well.
25 Q. Did you see them arriving in the village by car?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were Milan Lukic and Mitar Vasiljevic in the same car?
3 A. I didn't notice that.
4 Q. Did you notice where they stopped, who got out of the car and who
5 went in which direction?
6 A. When I headed for my father's house, the car was parked just below
7 my father's house, on the road.
8 Q. Which car was it?
9 A. It was a BMW. Then there was a Zastava 101 and a Zastava 128.
10 Q. So you saw those three vehicles parked, but were they already
11 empty or were people inside?
12 A. No. There was no one inside.
13 Q. And then you headed for your father's house, and you said that
14 Mitar Vasiljevic was in the doorway; isn't that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. But if I understood you correctly, Milan Lukic had still not
17 arrived in the house.
18 A. He had not.
19 Q. Did you see him prior to that or, rather, did you see him where he
20 was if he was not in the house?
21 A. I didn't see where he was until he enter the house.
22 Q. Could he have been searching the house, that same house, in the
24 A. I assume he was.
25 Q. Did Milan Lukic tell you that he was looking for this Avdo who had
1 allegedly killed a Serb woman?
2 A. No. Mitar Vasiljevic said that.
3 Q. Regarding this incident, you already made a statement to the
4 investigator prior to this, didn't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever mention this Avdo in those prior statements or
7 that Mitar had said that that was the reason for their arrival in your
9 A. I did.
10 Q. So you're claiming that in your statement to the investigators,
11 you said that Mitar Vasiljevic had said that they were looking for an Avdo
12 who had killed a Serb woman; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did Milan Lukic say in your presence before the other
15 villagers arrived?
16 A. Milan Lukic did not come before the other villagers arrived.
17 Q. Is that what you told the investigators in your earlier
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you said that Mitar Vasiljevic was on guard, guarding the
21 house, was that your conclusion on the basis of the fact that he was in
22 the doorway at the entrance to the house or did he tell you that he was
23 the guard?
24 A. He didn't say he was the guard, but if he was standing in the
25 doorway, armed, then he could have been nothing other than a guard.
1 Q. I see. So you concluded that he was a guard because all the time
2 he stood at the entrance to the house; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When the other villagers assembled later on, you mentioned a
5 number, between 25 and 30, did Milan Lukic say anything then, and if he
6 did so, what?
7 A. When he arrived, he said that we should go back to our usual
8 business. And as I mentioned, one of the neighbours said -- asked whether
9 they could tend the livestock normally, and he said we could. And he said
10 if we should note any unfamiliar people, that we should report it to his
12 Q. You also said that that evening when this group left, that you
13 personally, and the others who were living in other houses, were --
14 property was stolen from you. Isn't that so?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did Mitar Vasiljevic participate in that or could he have
18 A. No, because he was in the doorway all the time.
19 Q. When you were describing the second incident, you said that it
20 occurred two days later and again it involved a Milan Lukic. Was there an
21 incident the very next day?
22 A. There was.
23 Q. Did three soldiers come in a blue Mercedes?
24 A. Yes, they did.
25 Q. Could you describe that incident, which you failed to do a moment
2 A. Three men came in a blue Mercedes. One was an elderly man, maybe
3 in his 50s, and two were much younger. One of them took my car, a Zastava
4 128, and he ordered me to go with him to the municipality building to
5 authorise him to be able to use the car outside of Bosnia. I never saw my
6 car again since then.
7 Q. I see. So this was an incident that occurred the very next day
8 after Milan Lukic's group first arrived in your village?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. That first incident, that is, the coming of Milan Lukic's group to
11 your village, was that the first time you saw a group that called
12 themselves the White Eagles in your village?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Because you saw Mitar Vasiljevic with that group that evening, is
15 that the reason why you assumed that he was a member of that group when
16 you were answering questions from the Prosecution?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Very well. So though in the second incident when these nine
19 persons were taken away, whom you named, and though you didn't see Mitar
20 Vasiljevic, you assumed that as he was part of the group two days before
21 that incident, you assumed that he could have been in the group?
22 A. Yes. Those are my assumptions.
23 Q. When you mentioned hearing Mitar Vasiljevic asking whether there
24 was anyone in the attic and the answer that there was no one, was Milan
25 Lukic present at the time?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who was present then, all the persons that you listed a moment ago
3 except Milan Lukic?
4 A. Could you explain that a little, please?
5 Q. Do you remember who exactly was present at the time, members of
6 your family, to avoid repeating all the names that you mentioned a moment
7 ago as being present in that house?
8 A. I was present and those I listed a moment ago.
9 Q. And when you said that Mitar Vasiljevic believed what he was told,
10 did he actually say that or did he make a different response when he was
11 told that there was no one in the attic?
12 A. He said that he believed that there was no one there.
13 Q. Did he also say that he trusted all of you because he knew you?
14 A. No, he didn't say anything.
15 Q. In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you said that he was
16 not aggressive.
17 A. He was not.
18 Q. Did he give orders to anyone or did he prohibit anyone from doing
19 anything or did he do anything at all like that?
20 A. No, he didn't do anything.
21 Q. Could you tell us, if you can, what your impression was? Did he
22 trust you and were there any problems along those lines? Did he indicate
23 in any way anything other than that?
24 A. My opinion was that he trusted us, and he did not say anything to
25 the people in the room and everyone believed him.
1 Q. Let me now refer to the so-called third incident. You described
2 it as such. And That was the occasion when you and your brother were
3 arrested and taken away. Who took part in this apart from the person who
4 you referred to under the nickname Crnogorac or Montenegrin?
5 A. Milan Lukic, Rados Lukic, whom I knew, and this Crnogorac and a
6 young man of some 22 or 23 years of age who ordered us to lay down this
7 scarf and to put jewellery and money on this scarf.
8 Q. So these persons took you to the Vilina Vlas Hotel; is that right?
9 A. Crnogorac, the man called Crnogorac took us out of the house, and
10 Milan Lukic and Rados were sitting in the car. Rados was driving, and the
11 two of us were in the back.
12 Q. Among the people you later saw in Vilina Vlas, did you know any of
13 those people or did you recognise any of them?
14 A. Do you mean the staff or do you mean the detainees?
15 Q. No, I'm not referring to the detainees, because you've already
16 given us their names, but generally, anyone. The staff members or anyone
17 else you may have seen there.
18 A. No, I didn't see anyone. There was no one at the reception desk.
19 Q. I meant anyone, one of the guards or anyone else that you may have
20 seen during the two days that you spent there.
21 A. I couldn't see anyone when I was locked up.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. DOMAZET: I have no further questions, but I would like to ask
24 for the Prosecution's consent regarding what the witness says, that in his
25 statement for the investigator he had said that Mitar had said that they
1 were looking for an Avdo, who was looking for a Serb woman, to confirm
2 that that does not exist in that statement. And no mention is made of
3 Avdo or the killing of a Serb woman. All he said regarding Mitar was that
4 he had asked whether there was anyone in the attic.
5 So could we have their consent to avoid tendering the statement
6 into evidence?
7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ossogo?
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Is the Defence referring to the
9 statement of the 13th of May, 2000?
10 JUDGE HUNT: Is there more than one?
11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No, simply be certain which document
12 we are referring to.
13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Ossogo. I'm referring to
14 the statement of the 13th of May, 2000. I have no other.
15 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No. We don't have any other
16 statements either.
17 Mr. President, we have a confrontation of two. I come from a
18 civil law system. The witness is not absolutely bound by statements taken
19 before. He may remember certain details later on, and he may convey it to
20 the Judges this additional information.
21 JUDGE HUNT: May I interrupt you. It's not a question of anybody
22 being bound. What will happen is that Mr. Domazet will suggest to us that
23 this is something which the witness has made up. Whether we accept that
24 submission or not is a different matter, but the question is relevant to
25 the weight to be given to that piece of his evidence that he had not said
1 so to the investigator. There may be all sorts of reasons why he didn't,
2 and indeed you would be entitled to ask him in re-examination why he
3 didn't or why he said it for the first time here, if you wish to, but this
4 is the system that we have found works very much better than having
5 volumes of statements in evidence.
6 So if you accept that -- do you accept that it is not stated in
7 his statement of the 13th of May, 2000?
8 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to ask him any questions in
10 re-examination about that or about anything else?
11 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] No, absolutely not, Mr. President.
12 We didn't ask any questions about this particular aspect, which was not
13 important for us. It was a question of obtaining certain information
14 regarding mass treatment and persecution.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Ossogo, I'm not asking you to explain it. I
16 merely said you may, if you wish, ask the witness why he raised it for the
17 first time here and had not said anything about it to the investigator.
18 That was not something that was put to the witness in cross-examination,
19 so you are entitled to put it if you wish, but I don't want you giving
20 evidence from the bar table as to why it wasn't asked of him at the time.
21 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I understand. I understand,
22 Mr. President. We agree with Mr. Domazet.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well. Now, do you want to ask the witness
24 any questions in re-examination?
25 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, just two
2 Re-examined by Mr. Ossogo:
3 Q. [Interpretation] VG59, when Mitar Vasiljevic was standing at the
4 door, armed with a weapon, were you free, you and all the others in the
5 room, were you free to move about? Could you come and go as you wished?
6 A. No. We could not leave the house. We had to sit down there. We
7 had to remain seated.
8 Q. You were obliged to be seated because he was bearing a weapon and
9 prevented you from going out?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also --
12 A. He told us to sit down.
13 Q. I see. You also said, concerning the second incident, that when
14 the group came back with Milan at its head, you did not notice Mitar
15 Vasiljevic; isn't that right?
16 A. I did not.
17 Q. But he might have been in that group?
18 A. I assume so.
19 Q. And regarding the third incident, when you were taken to the
20 Vilina Vlas Hotel, you didn't see him?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. You are indicating his presence only when you actually saw him?
23 A. I only saw him in the first incident, and I assume that he was
24 there during the second incident because he was a member of that group
25 called Eagles.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. OSSOGO: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Yes. Judge Taya would like to ask a
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE TAYA: VG59, can you remember the approximate date and month
7 when the third incident occurred?
8 A. The third incident could have taken place at the beginning of
9 June. I cannot remember the exact date. I assume it was the 4th or 5th
10 of June. It could have been.
11 JUDGE TAYA: At the time of the third incident, do you presume
12 that Mitar Vasiljevic participated in the third incident? If not, what is
13 the reason why you presume differently from the second incident?
14 A. I presume that he was in the third incident, too, in view of the
15 fact that I didn't see him. But when my brother and I were taken out, it
16 was already dark.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, do you want to ask any questions arising
18 out of those questions of Judge Taya?
19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I would have a question, Your
20 Honour, in this connection and also in connection, if I may, what
21 Mr. Ossogo mentioned in his re-examination, and that is the following --
22 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute. The re-examination is a different
23 question. Is there anything arising out of Judge Taya's questions, by all
24 means, so ask those first, would you?
25 Further cross-examination by Mr. Domazet:
1 Q. [Interpretation] As regards the third incident, you clearly told
2 us who were the participants and who was with you in the car; isn't that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You also said that in Vilina Vlas, you didn't see any person that
6 you knew.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How then can I interpret your recent answer to the effect that you
9 assume that Mitar Vasiljevic was involved in the third incident? Was it
10 again because he was there during the first incident, so on the basis of
11 that you presume he was a member of the group, or is there any other
13 A. Because in the first incident, he was a member of the Eagles
14 together with Milan Lukic, and that is why I presume that he could have
15 been in the third incident as well.
16 Q. Even though you did not see him at all?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Domazet, if I may suggest, you have in fact
20 covered the same ground anyway, quite legitimately, but you covered the
21 same ground that the re-examination had. Is there anything else you want
22 to ask arising out of the re-examination? The evidence that he has given
23 is very clear. He saw him only on the first occasion. He drew the
24 inference I think is probably the most accurate way of saying it, he drew
25 the inference that he was there on the second and third occasion because
1 he understood him to be a member of the White Eagles. That's the
2 evidence. You can challenge it as you wish, but that's what he has said,
3 and he's said it now, I think, three times.
4 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but in connection
5 with the question of Mr. Ossogo and the explanation given by the witness
6 at the time differs somewhat from his answer to my question, and that is
7 in answer to my question as to whether Mitar Vasiljevic gave any orders or
8 any prohibitions or said anything like that, the witness said no. And now
9 in answer to a direct question from Mr. Ossogo, he said that no one could
10 go out because those were the orders allegedly.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he was standing at the door in
12 the role of guard, it's quite logical that we couldn't leave the house.
13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So because he was in the doorway carrying a weapon, you assumed
15 that no one could go out, but no such order was given by him, if I
16 understood you correctly.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Mr. Domazet, the statement in the
20 re-examination that you are referring to was simply this answer: "He told
21 us to sit down." That's all.
22 Now, I think we can take it we've got the final version from what
23 the witness has now said, and I don't really see there's any point in
24 challenging that unless you can persuade us to the contrary.
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] That's fine, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, thank you very much for coming here to
2 give evidence and for the evidence which you've given. You are now free
3 to leave.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, whilst the next witness is coming, may I
7 ask you a question? It arises out of Mr. Poljo's evidence. I assume that
8 we will be asked to draw the inference that because the flow of the river
9 was downstream from Visegrad that these bodies did come from Visegrad, but
10 is there anywhere higher up the river or in between Visegrad and where he
11 was living from which the bodies could have come? Are there dams across
12 the river at any stage?
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there will be a witness testifying next
14 week that will be able to testify to facts regarding this. I would say
15 that the dam, the Visegrad dam that you've heard a great deal about, is
16 further south of Visegrad. So Visegrad lies between the dam and Slap.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Because we've got no other means, unless there
18 is something from the material taken from the bodies that identified them
19 as having come specifically from Visegrad.
20 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there will be some testimony next week
21 regarding some of the bodies that were able to be identified.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I just thought I'd raise it.
23 Now, who is your next witness?
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before we call the next witness, I ask
25 that we return to the earlier discussion regarding the experts.
1 Mr. Domazet and I have had a conversation regarding that. I'd like to
2 inform the Court of the progress.
3 Regarding Mr. John Clark, who is scheduled to testify next
4 Tuesday, Mr. Domazet has agreed to waive his right to have Mr. Clark's
5 report for 21 days and will be prepared to cross-examine him next Tuesday.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
7 MR. GROOME: Ms. Ewa Tabeau who was schedule to testify this
8 afternoon, Mr. Domazet will agree to cross-examine her tomorrow, and we
9 will call her tomorrow.
10 The one that Mr. Domazet would like his full 21 days to evaluate
11 the report is Dr. de Grave, who was scheduled to testify tomorrow. Over
12 lunch, I will endeavour to speak with Dr. de Grave and find out the next
13 available date that he is able to attend the Tribunal, and I will report
14 that to the Court this afternoon so that we can schedule his testimony.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Has there been a fifth version of this week's
17 MR. GROOME: There soon will be another version, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: But there was no sign on this one of Ms. Tabeau,
19 that's all. The most recent one that I have, there is no reference to
20 Ms. Tabeau, unless she has a pseudonym which I don't believe she would
22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the one that I refer the Court to is
23 this one that I presented Monday which had the entire trial schedule, the
24 anticipated trial schedule on it.
25 JUDGE HUNT: I thought this one was meant to be the last word, the
1 one which has just this week day by day.
2 MR. GROOME: As Your Honour is aware, some of the problems we've
3 had getting witnesses up here, this schedule seems to change on an hourly
4 basis. But the one that I presented to the Court that had the entire
5 trial schedule is the one I believe is the most accurate although it will
6 change after some of the events of today.
7 JUDGE HUNT: We would like the weekly one though with the
8 protective measures. You don't need to do it quite as elaborately as you
9 have here, but it would be a help to have that.
10 All right. Well, then, have you got enough witnesses for us to
11 proceed today?
12 MR. GROOME: There are two more witnesses that are scheduled for
13 today. I also want to advise the Court that Mr. Tokaca who was schedule
14 for Thursday and who I spoke to last night and was all ready to fly today,
15 there's been some problem. I'm not fully aware of the circumstances of
16 the problem, but he will not be here for Thursday. I again will try to
17 find out the details of what happened. I'm led to believe it was some
18 problem with a visa, and I will advise the Court this afternoon as to the
19 earliest time we might expect Mr. Tokaca.
20 JUDGE HUNT: I think I can say quite safely that we do understand
21 the problems that you have of getting the witnesses here and of obtaining
22 all the necessary visas for them and provided that you have got some
23 back-up somewhere along the line, perhaps bringing in a few more witnesses
24 in case there are problems for the following week, we will fit in with how
25 you can proceed.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, so the Court is aware, we have
2 endeavoured to bring every witness to the Tribunal as soon as possible,
3 and it's only the visa problems that are delaying them at this stage.
4 JUDGE HUNT: What do you foresee then being the rest of the week?
5 I suppose you may have to wait to see whether Dr. de Grave, for example,
6 is available on Thursday.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I will check with him on the lunch
9 JUDGE HUNT: And so that we can notify those who are the important
10 people who provide the interpreters, the court reporters, the rest of the
11 court staff, we will have to know about Friday as soon as possible.
12 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, when I return from lunch, I will have
13 our best estimate of the remainder of the week and the week after, if
14 that's acceptable to the Court.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, have you got the next witness?
16 MR. GROOME: Yes, the next witness is outside. Before I would do
17 that I would like to, at this time, tender the agreed facts about to be
18 presented to the Chamber. It is Prosecution number 36.1, are the agreed
19 facts in English, and bear the signatures of both myself and Mr. Domazet.
20 And Exhibit 36.2 are the agreed facts in the Serbian language and bears
21 the signature of the accused, Mr. Domazet, and myself.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you'll have to do a small translation for us,
23 but the word "stipulate," as I've already drawn your attention to, means
24 different things to different people. I realise in America that it is
25 something that is used, I think to say, admit.
1 MR. GROOME: Or an agreed fact.
2 JUDGE HUNT: For example, in 3(A), it's not necessary to prove
3 that it was international in this case, is it?
4 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, but Mr. Domazet felt strongly to add
5 that qualification into it, and the Prosecution agreed.
6 JUDGE HUNT: The copies that I have have Mr. Domazet's signature
7 on the English and Mr. Domazet's and Mr. Vasiljevic's on the B/C/S. So
8 far, your signature does not appear on either of them.
9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, those copies were made before I signed
10 them. The actual two exhibits which will be tendered into evidence I have
11 here, and have my signature.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll give you these back. This is a
13 completely new document you're giving us.
14 MR. GROOME: This is the same document with my signature on it
15 that we will be tendering into evidence.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Is it the English or the B/C/S version?
17 MR. GROOME: I'm tendering both of them, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, those will be the only documents we need,
19 won't they? Well, have they not got the other signatures on them?
20 MR. GROOME: These have all the signatures on them now.
21 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Give those ones back. We'll take those
22 as the exhibits. Have you only the one copy of each?
23 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: That's All right. They can be copied. They will be
25 Exhibits P36.1 and 36.2.
1 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour. The Serbian language
2 one being P36.2.
3 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Now, can we have the witness?
4 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution would call
6 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P78, and it will
7 be under seal.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, madam, will you please make the statutory -- the
10 solemn declaration in the document which the court usher is showing you.
11 You have to read it out, madam. Are you all right to go ahead?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam. Sit down, please.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS VG77
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE HUNT: Do you feel ready to go ahead?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome
20 Examined by Mr. Groome:
21 Q. Witness 77, I would ask you to look at Prosecution 78 and read
22 that document. Is that your name on the top of that document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is that your date of birth on that document?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. And is that your current address on that document?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. I'd ask you, if you have to refer to the person listed on that
4 document, I would ask that you use the pseudonym VG87.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you born in Visegrad?
7 A. I was.
8 Q. And have you lived most of your life in Visegrad?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And were you married?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. And do you have children?
13 A. I do, two.
14 Q. I want to draw your attention to the spring of 1992. Did there
15 come a time during April of that year that you left Visegrad?
16 A. Yes, in June. On the 18th -- 17th or 18th of June. I don't know
17 for sure. I think it was the 18th.
18 Q. I want to draw your attention to a time earlier than that. Was
19 there a time that you left briefly for a village called Medjedja?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And when was that?
22 A. I can't remember whether it was in April. In April.
23 Q. Was that at the same time that many people left Visegrad?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Did you return from that village to Visegrad?
1 A. We did return.
2 Q. And soon after returning, was your husband arrested?
3 A. Yes, he was.
4 Q. Without telling us the actual address, would you tell us what
5 street in Visegrad you lived on?
6 A. [redacted]
7 Q. And the area in which you lived, was that a predominantly Muslim
9 A. Predominantly, yes.
10 Q. When you returned to Visegrad, did you return to your home?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was there ever a time that you hid in the woods during the spring
13 of 1992?
14 A. Yes. Quite frequently, in fact.
15 Q. And would these be the woods close to where you lived on [redacted]
17 A. Yes, called Babin Potok.
18 Q. Was there ever a time that you were harassed as you passed by the
19 Visegradska Banja during this time?
20 A. Yes. Yes. When I went from Babin Potok to the village of Dubovo,
21 where my husband is from, and then when I went back to Visegrad, we were
22 mistreated. They yelled at us, saying we should be killed, forced into
23 the river. They forced us to sit down, to get up, and then they
24 mistreated us all the way to my house.
25 Q. And did you go to your house? Did you go into your house?
1 A. Yes. I got to my house. I entered inside. They followed us.
2 They searched us. They asked where my children were, my husband. They
3 found my money. They took my money away, and they left.
4 Q. And how long did you remain in your house at this point in time?
5 A. I was there for 15 days when I returned to the village from my
6 house in [redacted], though I didn't spend all the nights in my own house.
7 I spent some of them at my neighbour's.
8 Q. [redacted] are you familiar with two houses belonging to
9 a family by the name of Memic?
10 A. Yes, do I know that, because it's close to my house.
11 Q. And are those two houses directly on [redacted]
12 A. It is [redacted] all the way from my house and further up.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the school on [redacted]
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. And where are the Memic houses in relation to the school?
16 A. When you're going uphill on the left-hand side. If you're going
17 up along [redacted]
18 Q. Would it be fair to say that they are across from the school?
19 A. Yes, across from the school. You're quite right.
20 Q. Are you familiar with a house belonging to Adem Omeragic?
21 A. I am, of course.
22 Q. And where is that house in relation to the Memic houses?
23 A. It is on the left-hand side of Jusuf and Mujo Memic's house, next
24 to the creek.
25 Q. How far away is the Omeragic house from this creek?
1 A. I don't know exactly, but right close to the creek. It's not a
2 big stream. It's like a small valley.
3 Q. Did there come a time in the spring of 1992 that a person by the
4 name of Lukic came and spoke with you and a friend of yours?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you approximate to the Court when this was?
7 A. It was in June.
8 Q. And can you describe for the Court what you remember about this
9 person named Lukic?
10 A. I remember, when I was at my neighbour's, Ibrahim Memic's house,
11 Milan Lukic came and another man, and I can't remember his name. They
12 took down our names, mine, Ibrahim Memic, his mother, wife,
13 daughters-in-law, telling us that we mustn't go anywhere, that we were
14 safe there, and that they would come and fetch us and take us to safety.
15 JUDGE HUNT: I think you're court manager should have as his
16 first task to remind the Prosecution counsel that we are due to adjourn.
17 I know that it's difficult, but nevertheless, we have got certain
18 obligations to the interpreting and court reporting staff.
19 We will adjourn now until 2.30.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I resume, I have provided the
4 court deputy with an updated schedule of where the situation stands now.
5 At some point that's convenient for the Court, perhaps we can discuss it
7 JUDGE HUNT: It would be a good idea if these things are dated and
8 if there's more than one on one day, we can have the date with a 1 or 2
9 after it.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at the top line I have today's date and
11 2.00 being the last time it was updated.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, that's very good. Thank you.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. Witness VG77, before we took our break, you were describing an
15 event that took occurred in of a friend of yours' house in which Milan
16 Lukic was present. Do you recall what you were testifying about?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would you tell us again what exactly these people said to you?
19 A. These people told us that we shouldn't leave the place until they
20 came because it wasn't safe and that they would come and -- and take us to
21 some safe place.
22 Q. Did both men speak to you or did just one of them?
23 A. Both. Both men spoke to me.
24 Q. And were you able to tell from -- the person you're identifying as
25 Milan Lukic, I'd ask you to describe his physical appearance for the
2 A. He was wearing a uniform, and the other one, I couldn't remember
3 what he was wearing.
4 Q. And the uniform that Mr. Lukic was wearing, did it have any
5 insignias on it or any lettering that you recall?
6 A. No. I can't remember. The only thing that I remember was that he
7 was wearing a uniform.
8 Q. The other person, when he spoke, was there anything unique about
9 his voice that you recall?
10 A. Well, one of the daughters of -- daughter of the owner was asked
11 her -- asked the woman whether she was there, and she said that they had
12 gone to school together, that they were in school together.
13 Q. Did you take that to mean that he was from Visegrad as well?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Approximately what time of the day was this?
16 A. I can't remember whether it was -- in the afternoon or around
17 about noon, perhaps.
18 Q. Now, a couple of days later, did you see a group of people from
19 the village of Koritnik on Pionirska street?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And as best you remember, how many days were between this first
22 incident with Milan Lukic and this sighting of people from Koritnik on
23 Pionirska Street?
24 A. Two days had passed perhaps. Between two and three days. Not
25 more than that.
1 Q. What was your best recollection of what day this was when you saw
2 the people from Koritnik?
3 A. I can't remember the day. I can't remember.
4 Q. Now, where were you when you saw these people from Koritnik?
5 A. I was at home. I called one of my neighbours and asked him
6 whether I was safe to remain at home and whether he could help me. He
7 said he -- I could not go, that I should stay there because it was not
8 safe. Then I left with my grandfather and grandmother as well, and we
9 left, and we walked about 100 metres. And I went to Mujo Memic's house,
10 and I met those people from Koritnik. I met a group. I don't know how
11 many there were in that group. Well, I was -- I first noticed a
12 baby --
13 Q. The group that you saw from Koritnik, could you tell which
14 direction they were coming from?
15 A. Up from Pionirska, from the main street to Pionirska.
16 Q. Would it be fair to say that they were coming away from the town?
17 A. They were coming from their village. I stood with them. They
18 asked me where I was going. I said I was going to Drina, to a neighbour,
19 to his house. And then they said, "How come you are leaving this place?"
20 They told us that there were many empty houses there and that we should
21 find accommodations in Mahala and Pionirska Street. I said, was told that
22 the houses were empty and that we were amongst the last and that we would
23 be leaving.
24 Q. You mentioned a baby among this group of people. Approximately
25 how old was that baby?
1 A. Yes. Well, I talked is to these people. I knew these people. I
2 asked -- I wondered if we had done something wrong to someone. Why was
3 the baby to blame? And I told the mother of the child, "Where are you
4 going with that baby? How old is that baby?" She told me, "Two days
5 old. I gave birth to her in a forest in Paocina two days previously."
6 Q. Now, where precisely on Pironirska Street was this group people
7 from Koritnik when you first saw them?
8 A. That group was at Mujo Memic's home. Number 87 it was. By number
10 Q. And for approximately how long did you stop and speak with these
12 A. Well, about five or six minutes, perhaps ten minutes we stood
13 there. At the most, ten minutes.
14 Q. And did any of the people in this group tell you where they were
16 A. They asked me whether they could go into those houses. I said all
17 those houses were empty. "You can go into those houses. You can go into
18 my house. It's empty." They stood in their tracks because they were not
19 aware of what had been going on there.
20 Q. These people, were they carrying any bags with them?
21 A. Yes. They were carrying travelling bags, blankets, wardrobe over
22 those bags.
23 Q. And did anyone from this group tell you that they were instructed
24 by Serbs to come to this part of town and to occupy those houses?
25 A. Yes. They were told by the Serbs, as neighbours, that they had to
1 leave these places, that they were not safe in that village, that they had
2 to go into the city, and that they should find accommodations in
3 Pironirska Street because there were plenty of empty houses.
4 Q. Did there come a time when you left this group of people and
5 continued on your way?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. And did you continue to walk down Pionirska Street?
8 A. Yes. I went down Pionirska Street.
9 Q. Were you walking in the direction of the centre of town?
10 A. Yes, towards the centre of town.
11 Q. After you met this group of people, did you meet anyone else on
12 the street that day?
13 A. I met, as I was leaving Pionirska Street, in the direction of the
14 petrol pump, I met Mitar Vasiljevic and another soldier who was with him.
15 They stopped us there.
16 Q. I'm going to ask you to describe the person you're referring to as
17 Mitar Vasiljevic as best you can remember.
18 A. Well, I remembered the hat he wore on his head.
19 Q. Can you describe it for us, please?
20 A. Well, he walked towards us. He stopped us there, my grandmother,
21 grandfather, and they were asking us where we were going. I said that we
22 were going to the Drina, to a neighbour, and he said, "You cannot pass
23 there." And he asked me where I was going, and I said that I was going to
24 fetch my children from the Drina and take them home. And he told me, "You
25 cannot pass. You're not safe after 3.00 p.m. If someone kills you, I
1 will not be held responsible and no one will be held responsible." And to
2 my grandfather, he also said that he should go and bury the dead that were
3 laying around in those houses. "I can't do that," he said. "I have to go
4 where my children are." He was persistent. He wanted to go back at all
5 costs. I said that I had to go and fetch the children. And he kept
6 calling, "Return. Return. There is no passage there." And there we
7 stopped, as if we were going to go back. Then he went along Pironirska
8 Street with the other soldier. Then we went behind them, then we stopped,
9 and then we turned towards the centre of the city.
10 Q. Witness 77, you've described two people. Who was the person who
11 was speaking to you at this point in time?
12 A. Mitar spoke to us. And the other person was standing next to
13 him. He said, "Yes, yes. You go back."
14 Q. When Mitar Vasiljevic told you to go back, what did you understand
15 that to mean? Go back where?
16 A. Well, I understood that we had to go back with the people from
17 Koritnik, the people I had met 50 metres before. I don't -- I'm not quite
18 sure. I thought that we had to go along with them, because I didn't know
19 what would happen later on. I understood that he was making us go, return
20 with them.
21 Q. During the time that he's speaking to you, does he ever refer to
22 the group of people from Koritnik village?
23 A. No, he didn't mention that group of people. He only told us that
24 if someone killed us after 3.00 p.m., that he would not be held
1 Q. And did you go back, as you were instructed?
2 A. No, I didn't go back that day. That was in the afternoon when
3 this happened, when he was trying to get us to go back. I went to Drina
4 with my family. I spent the night there, and then I returned very early.
5 It must have been very early, about 7.00 a.m. I don't know what day it
6 was. I can't remember.
7 Then when we came there to Pionirska street, near the house of
8 Jusuf Memic, we saw that the house had burnt down. There was a thunder
9 storm that night. There was a lot of shooting. We don't know whether it
10 was the grenades or the shells or whether it was thunder. It was a
12 Q. Witness 77, I want to ask you specific questions. I'd ask you,
13 after you finish the specific answer, give me an opportunity to ask
14 another question.
15 I want to take you back to the time that you're having this
16 conversation with Mr. Vasiljevic. Why did you not go back as you were
18 A. Well, we didn't go back because there was no one there except for
19 the people from Koritnik, because everyone had left and we didn't dare
20 stay there any longer.
21 Q. What did you say to this person you're referring to as Mitar
23 A. Well, I told him that I was going for my children and then that I
24 would come back.
25 Q. Was that the truth?
1 A. That was the truth. Of course it was the truth.
2 Q. Where were your children at this time?
3 A. Well, my children were in Austria at the time.
4 Q. Did there come a time later in the day that you did return to your
5 home on [redacted]
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And approximately when that was?
8 A. Early in the morning when I said that I would return the
9 children. I didn't go back, but early in the morning, at 7.00 a.m., I
10 returned to [redacted]
11 Q. And when you returned to [redacted], did you have an
12 opportunity to go past the Memic house again?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And would you describe for the Court what you observed about the
15 condition of that house later in the day?
16 A. Yes, I can.
17 Q. Please describe it?
18 A. Jusuf Memic's house had burnt down that night. When I came there
19 with my neighbour, I saw that the roof had burnt down, that everything was
20 falling down. And when I saw that the house was burning, we went to
21 Mujo's house, and we wondered where the people from Koritnik were, where
22 they had spent the night and what had happened to them. We looked around
23 in -- we look at Omeragic's house. We saw that it was on fire. The smoke
24 wag coming out of the windows. And then we wondered whether those people
25 were there in that house. We were asking each other, and we were
1 answering each other, and we said, "Yes. No." And then we went to Mujo's
2 house and there we stopped. We didn't see anyone. We didn't hear
3 anyone. Everything was devastated. It was all very quiet and sad. Then
4 we went to number 87, the house in 87. We enter the house. We called out
5 people. No one responded. We saw corridors full of bags which these
6 people from Koritnik were carrying. This was one storey, on one floor.
7 We called the owner. He wasn't there. Then we went to the first floor.
8 We also called out. There was no one. There were bags there also in the
9 corridors, in the rooms. We called out. No one responded.
10 Q. Witness 77, when you returned to Pionirska Street, you mentioned
11 seeing bags. Did you recognise these bags as the bags you saw in the
12 possession of the people from Koritnik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you see any trace of the people from Koritnik there on
15 Pionirska Street?
16 A. No, I didn't. There was no -- there were no traces, but we saw
17 their clothes, their bags. The clothes were on their bags. The blankets
18 were on the bags. I saw the people carrying those bags and those clothes
19 and blankets and that they were in that house.
20 Q. And which houses did you see had been burnt down?
21 A. Adem's house and Jusuf Memic's house. They were burnt down that
23 Q. By Adem's house are you referring to Adem Omeragic's house, by the
25 A. Yes. Yes, near the creek.
1 Q. How close did you come to that house or did you go to that house?
2 A. We didn't go to the house, but my neighbour and I had supposed
3 that the people in that house had burnt down also, along with the house.
4 Q. How long did you remain in the area of these two houses?
5 A. Well, we went up to Muja's house. There there was no one. [redacted]
6 [redacted]. When I went into the
7 house, everything was broken, was destroyed. Everything that could have
8 been taken away was taken away. We walked out. We went to Jusuf Memic's
9 stalls. He had cows there and we tried to let the cows loose so as to
10 avoid having them being burnt.
11 When we got to his stalls, the stalls, the barn had burnt down.
12 The cows were not there, someone had let them loose, and the barn had
13 already burnt down.
17 A. I don't know what you mean by the condition having changed.
22 A. No. No, it wasn't.
23 Q. Now, you're describing going to the stable which belonged to Jusuf
24 Memic. Where is that stable with respect to the house belonging to Adem
25 Omeragic by the creek?
1 A. Well, the stables of Jusuf Memic were perhaps 200, 300 metres from
2 Adem Omeragic's place.
3 Q. At that time, was the house -- was the roof on the house still
5 A. Jusuf Memic. You mean Adem's house or Jusuf's house?
6 Q. Adem Omeragic's house by the creek.
7 A. No. No. The roof -- well, we walked around there by Jusuf's
8 stables. We looked at the smoke going out of Adem's house. This went
9 on. And we stood there. Then we went to Hajra's house and there we
10 watched from the window when the roof collapsed. It burnt and it
11 collapsed. It fell.
12 Q. Now --
13 A. Normally.
14 Q. Now, after this day, did there come a day when you left Visegrad?
15 A. That night, well, I spent in the neighbourhood at my neighbour
16 Hajra's place. The lights were on the whole night. Of course, we didn't
17 switch it off. Some people below were walking up and about. We didn't
18 know who they were. They didn't mistreat us in any way. And that night,
19 of course, we couldn't sleep. The next day, we went to Drina again, and
20 there we spent some time with some other neighbours.
21 Q. And did you leave Visegrad that day?
22 A. We didn't.
23 Q. When did you leave Visegrad?
24 A. Well, I left -- well, it was either the 17th or the 18th of June.
25 I don't know exactly. Whether it was the 17th or the 18th of June.
1 Q. And approximately how many days transpired between the day that
2 you saw Adem Omeragic's house by the creek burning and the day you left
4 A. Well, perhaps the third day. We left there the third day, on the
5 third day.
6 Q. Now, you've described a person or referred to a person by the name
7 of Mitar Vasiljevic throughout your testimony. I would ask you to
8 describe for the Court how you know this person.
9 A. Well, I used to know him even before. I didn't pay much attention
10 to him, but I did know him. I did know him very well, but I would -- I
11 saw him. I had seen him earlier.
12 Q. And can you describe for us where you saw him prior to the day
13 that you've described here in court? Was there a particular place?
14 A. No. I had no contact with him ever. I met him a couple of
15 times. Sometimes in town. I would meet him in town in the Mahala, at
16 Cadza's, because I never paid much attention to him ever.
17 Q. I'd ask you to look around the courtroom here today and tell us
18 whether you recognise anybody here in the courtroom.
19 A. Well, I recognised him as soon as I walked in through the door.
20 Q. The person who you're referring to now, would you describe where
21 he is now in this courtroom and describe something that he's wearing?
22 A. Well, the person is on the left-hand side. He has a white shirt,
23 and he has a multicolored jacket.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, may the record reflect the witness has
25 indicated the accused in this matter?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: I think you better ask her which row, because I see
2 nobody with a multicolored jacket except one of the court reporters.
3 MR. GROOME:
4 Q. Would you describe more precisely what row this person is sitting
6 A. Behind, in the background.
7 Q. Can you describe more precisely the colour of this person's
9 A. Well, yellowish. I can't see very well.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I think we've got it. It can be stated that she has
11 identified the accused.
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. Is this the person who instructed you to return back and to join
14 the people from Koritnik on Pionirska Street?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask that the
17 witness -- or Exhibit P17.4 be placed in the ELMO. It is in the binders I
18 have provided the Court and we also have the black and white copies if the
19 Court would like.
20 Q. I'm going to ask that you take the black pen, the permanent
21 marker, and I'm going to ask you to write -- on this table to your right
22 there's this picture.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you to write "VG77" on the bottom so that we know
25 these markings were made by you.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. GROOME: I would ask if the witness -- if it's not possible
3 for the witness to draw on the ELMO, I would ask that we put the
4 photograph in front of the witness and I will ask her to make some
5 markings and then we will put it back on the ELMO.
6 Q. I'm going to ask you to circle the house that you've describe as
7 Jusuf Memic's house, and put the initials "JM" to indicate that.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. I would ask you to circle the house belonging to Adem Omeragic by
10 the creek. Draw a circle around it.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And would you put the letters "AO" inside that circle?
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. I would ask you just to put the initial "P" to indicate which of
15 the streets on that photograph is Pionirska Street. Put the letter "P".
16 A. I didn't understand what you have just said about the lettering,
17 about the letters.
18 Q. I would ask you just to put the letter "P" on the street you've
19 referred to as Pionirska Street, to tell us which street is Pionirska
21 A. [In English] Yeah, okay.
22 Q. Now, I want you to draw a circle to indicate your best
23 approximation of where Mitar Vasiljevic was at the time you had a
24 conversation with him.
25 A. [Marks]
1 JUDGE HUNT: How? With a letter or what?
2 MR. GROOME: Just a circle. Then I'll ask you to do the initials.
3 Q. And would you put "MV" inside that circle to indicate where he
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. The place that you're approximating, is it off that picture?
7 A. [Interpretation] No.
8 Q. So have you drawn a circle to indicate where it was that you saw
9 Mitar Vasiljevic?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. GROOME: Those are all the markings I'm going to the witness
13 to make.
14 Your Honour, would it assist the Chamber to indicate all the
15 markings she's made now? I don't believe her last marking is visible on
16 the screen now.
17 JUDGE HUNT: That's where she saw the accused?
18 MR. GROOME: Now it's visible.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
20 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, when you said today and also in your
24 earlier statement the place where you saw two men whom you identified as
25 Mitar Vasiljevic and another soldier you said that this was at the end or
1 at the beginning of Pionirska Street, depending on the direction, at the
2 crossroads with the road leading to the petrol station. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That road which leads to the petrol station, is that the road
5 leading towards the village of Jagodina or Uzice? That is the main road.
6 A. Yes, the main road for Uzice and Pionirska Street branches off of
7 it to the left and that's where Vasiljevic was standing with the soldier.
8 Q. So he was standing there with this other person on the corner of
9 this road leading from Visegrad to Uzice, and that is also the beginning
10 of Pionirska Street; is it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The spot that you have marked on this photograph is at the bottom
13 of this photograph, but that is not the intersection with the road you
14 have just told us about, which in my view is much, much further away
15 than that this. So could you look at this photograph once again and see
16 whether the spot that you have described is visible on this photograph or
18 A. No. The intersection cannot be seen on this photograph at all.
19 Q. You can see the school well, with the school yard?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The intersection at which you saw Mitar Vasiljevic is quite a bit
22 further away along the Pionirska Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And it is not visible on this photograph.
25 A. It is not.
1 Q. Does that mean that you are correcting the marking that you made
2 on this photograph, the circle indicating the spot where Mitar Vasiljevic
3 was standing? Because he seems to be between two houses, which is not
4 that spot.
5 A. He was standing near this house. We were going towards each
6 other, and this man with him had a limp in one leg, this man who was
7 standing at the entrance to that house.
8 Q. So you saw him at the intersection of Pionirska Street and the
9 road leading to Uzice, towards the petrol station going out of Visegrad
10 towards Uzice?
11 A. He entered Pionirska Street from the road leading to Uzice, so he
12 turned into Pionirska Street, that intersection, and he was moving from
13 that intersection along Pionirska Street.
14 Q. I understood that, but that intersection is not shown on this
15 photograph, is it? Could you tell me, this other road leading to the
16 petrol station and leading out of Visegrad, how far away is it from the
17 school in Pionirska Street? Roughly.
18 A. I can't. I never measured the distance, but it's not far. You go
19 up Pionirska Street. I don't know whether it's 200 or 250 metres as you
20 walk up Pionirska Street. I don't know, I never measured it, but it's not
22 Q. Unfortunately, I have to go back to this photograph yet again,
23 which does not show this road or, rather, the intersection. Do you still
24 maintain that the spot where you saw Mitar Vasiljevic can be seen on this
25 photograph or is it a spot in Pionirska Street but a part of the street
1 which is not shown on this photograph?
2 A. As far as I can see here, I don't see it. Maybe it was -- the
3 photograph was taken in two parts and then attached. As far as I can see,
4 the intersection is not visible. I see the Memic house, his son's house,
5 and the house number 87. I see Momo's house, Momo and Mimo. I see
6 Gusa's house that had a bakery. I see Jusuf Memic's house. Those
7 houses I can see.
8 Q. Thank you. You described the person as a person wearing a big
9 straw hat. Do you remember anything else that this person was wearing?
10 A. No, I cannot remember that day. I remember most this hat, this
11 straw hat, big straw hat that he was wearing. And I was confused when I
12 met him, when he said that we had to go back, and after that, I couldn't
13 see anything any more. I was so upset.
14 Q. Talking about this hat, you said it was a straw hat. Do you
15 remember its colour?
16 A. Yellow, as far as I can remember. It was a yellow hat.
17 Q. You said that he was telling you to turn back. At the same time,
18 did he mention at all this group from Koritnik?
19 A. No. He said that we should go back together with the people, that
20 no one could guarantee our safety after 3.00, and that he wouldn't be held
21 responsible for our safety.
22 Q. And this other person who was there, who you described today as a
23 soldier, because in your statement with the investigator, you described
24 him as a Serb. What is the difference? At the time you didn't say he was
25 a soldier, but today you're saying he was a soldier.
1 A. This other one was a soldier, yes.
2 Q. How was he dressed?
3 A. He was wearing a uniform, a military uniform.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you know a person called [redacted] madam?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see [redacted] anywhere that day?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you didn't see him that day in Pionirska Street, nor with Mitar
10 A. No. [redacted] lived in Crnic, on the other bank of the
11 Drina, across the Drina River.
12 Q. Do you know a person with the same name and surname who lived in
14 A. Sase. What name did you say?
15 Q. [redacted].
16 A. No.
17 Q. When you were leaving your house in [redacted] that day and
18 when you came across this group of people, was anyone else in those
19 houses, apart from you, from among the people who used to live in those
20 houses that you knew?
21 A. You mean whether anyone stayed behind after we had left that last
23 Q. The day you met the group from Koritnik, do you remember whether
24 anyone else had stayed in their houses or was there no one left?
25 A. As far as I know, [redacted] wife had stayed behind,
1 another tenant, and they lived in the same house. Whether their daughter
2 or daughter-in-law or grandchild was there, a child of two or three, as
3 far as I know, they were there when I left and when we met Mitar
5 Q. Those are the only persons that you knew had stayed behind when
6 you left and walked up Pionirska Street?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do those people live above or below the Memics' house?
9 A. Above the Mujo Memic's house. It was the house above Mujo
10 Memic's. That is where they lived.
11 Q. At the time, did you see a person that I have to refer to as --
12 with her initials, VG115, so could the witness be shown the name and
13 surname of this witness for her to be able to answer my question.
14 JUDGE HUNT: You see the highlighted name against the number?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Was that person on that day in Pionirska Street?
20 A. This person was in Visegrad for two years afterwards, for two
21 years, this person.
22 Q. My question was whether you saw her then?
23 A. I did not see her, but I know that she was there. She lived near
25 Q. So according to you, she lived there for another two nears in
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. [redacted]
5 A. Yes. Let me try and explain. It's about 250 or 300 metres again,
6 something like that.
7 Q. [redacted]
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you familiar with that house? You know it well?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Is it possible to see the Memic house from that house?
12 A. I don't know. I doubt it. I don't know.
13 Q. And what about the Omeragic house?
14 A. No. It cannot be seen.
15 Q. You're quite about that?
16 A. I'm quite sure, because there are other houses in between that
17 obstruct the view to the Omeragic house which was next to the creek.
18 Q. You said, madam, that you knew of this witness, VG115, that she
19 lived in Visegrad for another two years.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How do you know that, since as far as I know, you have left. You
22 left Visegrad in June 1992.
23 A. I know because her husband, I can't give you the name --
24 Q. No, don't.
25 A. Her husband was where I was and one child was with him. The boy
1 and the girl was with her mother. Then they met when it was possible to
2 leave. After maybe four years, they got together again, she and her
4 Q. When did you hear that Mitar Vasiljevic was arrested? Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. I can't remember, but I heard immediately when they announced it
7 on the news on television that he had been arrested.
8 Q. Did you see the film of his arrest?
9 A. Well, let me tell you, I'm not that interested in politics. When
10 I switch it on, if that subject is featured, I watch. I'm not a
11 politician to be following the situation in any detail, no.
12 Q. I didn't think that you were involved in politics. I was just
13 wondering whether you watched those features from The Hague, news
14 reports. Did you see the detailed report of his arrival in The Hague?
15 A. Yes, I did see it on television. I saw it once. I saw him once
17 Q. Do you remember how many times you made statements in connection
18 with this case? Did you give statements to the investigator of the
19 Prosecution on this case?
20 A. Twice and never again except for this time now.
21 Q. Were you shown a photograph spread showing various people for you
22 to identify Mitar Vasiljevic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you recognise him on the photographs?
25 A. I did not, because photographs are not the same as real life. I
1 cannot recognise people on a photograph in the same way I do when I meet
2 them, because the pictures are magnified. So you can't recognise him.
3 Q. So on those photographs, you did not recognise Mitar Vasiljevic?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. May I ask you, how did it come about for you to give a statement?
6 How did they learn about you as a witness? Did you notify them yourself?
7 A. I don't know at all who gave my name as a possible witness,
8 because what do I know? There were always stories about what people had
9 lived through. People were talking about that. And there is a person in
10 Visegrad, and she will be coming here, and maybe she told these people
11 that I had lived through this and that I had seen these things linked to
12 Mitar, and maybe she informed them that I knew about him and that is why
13 they called me, and I went and made a statement.
14 Q. Do you remember the occasion when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic on
15 television, if that was only once, as you said? Was this before you gave
16 your statement to the investigator or afterwards?
17 A. Afterwards. No. Just a moment, please. Once I saw him once
18 before, and once afterwards.
19 Q. So you saw him twice on television, once before you made your
20 statement and one afterwards.
21 A. I made a statement once when I was invited to do so, and after
22 that I saw him on television. And then I made a statement for the second
23 time, and then they invited me to come here.
24 Q. In addition to this identification, if I am not wrong, I think in
25 your statement you said yourself that you would not be able to recognise
1 him from a photograph.
2 A. At the time, I could not recognise him, but today, as I walked
3 through the door, I felt sick as soon as I saw him. You probably
4 noticed. I suddenly remembered his image when I met him in Visegrad, and
5 I remembered that scene and this depression, and I felt unwell. I
6 recognised him immediately here.
7 Q. Very well. You will admit that it wasn't difficult to recognise
8 him in here, but did he differ in any way from the person you saw some
9 nine years ago compared to what he looks like now?
10 A. Well, I don't know. He was wearing a hat then. But still today,
11 this face I recognised it as soon as I walked through the door.
12 Q. Madam, you said that you left [redacted] that afternoon
13 because you were afraid as many people had abandoned the area, almost all
14 of them.
15 A. Yes, all the neighbours.
16 Q. But you went back the next morning nevertheless?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Weren't you afraid to go back the next morning or was it just in
19 the night that you were afraid?
20 A. I didn't think. I never gave it a thought. I expected to be
21 killed any moment, to be hit by a bullet, to be picked up and detained.
22 So I never gave a thought to my safety because the power was in their
23 hands. They did what they wanted.
24 Q. When this group you that you identified as the group from Koritnik
25 near the Memic house, you said you couldn't tell how many they were, but
1 can you tell us approximately?
2 A. I can't tell when I don't know the exact number. I can tell you
3 it was quite a decent group. How many people, I don't know, but quite a
5 Q. Something else linked to the recognition of the person you saw on
6 the corner of this street. You claim that this was a person who you came
7 across a couple of times in town.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I would like to know, how could you tell that this person you met
10 a couple of times in town and that you saw on the corner of Pionirska
11 Street and this other road, how did you know that his name was Mitar
13 A. My father-in-law was with me, and he knew him, but he didn't dare
14 say to him, "Neighbour Mitar, let us pass," which was quite normal.
15 May I ask a question?
16 Q. Not to me, but if Their Honours allow it, that's another matter.
17 It is my duty to ask questions here and yours to answer for the moment.
18 So if Their Honours allow it, please go ahead?
19 JUDGE HUNT: Is it something that you don't understand, madam, or
20 is it just a matter of curiosity that you want to ask the question?
21 A. No, not out of curiosity, but I want to say a couple of words more
22 about Mitar.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Domazet, the Prosecution would be able to
24 ask her what she wanted to ask. My suggestion to you is that it would be
25 better for you to hear it so that you can cross-examine on it if
1 necessary. I'm not trying to force you into it. I'm just suggesting to
2 you that it may be to your benefit to have what she wants to say said now.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Actually, I have just completed my
4 cross-examination. If the Prosecution has anything else to ask, it's up
5 to them, but I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Groome, if you want to ask, it would be new
7 matter upon which there can be cross-examination. I think that's
9 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I think if the witness wants to say anything, let's
11 hear what it is. If it turns out to be irrelevant, we can ignore it.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Groome:
13 Q. Witness VG77, what is this additional information you want to tell
14 us about Mitar Vasiljevic?
15 A. I wanted to say that the last day, the 17th or the 18th -- I think
16 it was the 18th of June, when they told us that there would be a convey a
17 8.00, and we started out, I spent the last night at my neighbour's, also
18 in [redacted], we met Mitar near an auto part shop, a shop selling
19 parts for automobiles. He met us. He was carrying a hand grenade. He
20 was carrying an automatic rifle. He provoked us there. He forced us to
21 sit down, to get up, sit down, get up. This neighbour was pushing his old
22 mother who was blind, in a wheelchair, and he was saying, "Where are you
23 taking that excrement? Throw it into the Drina." He wanted to kill us.
24 He waved the hand grenade at us to kill us all. He mistreated us. Then
25 he forced us to go in front of the SUP. We got in front of the SUP. He
1 still had his weapon in his hand. Then three men came out of the SUP,
2 down the steps, and asked him, "Mitar, where are you chasing those people
3 to?" And he said, "I want to kill them." They said to him, "Leave" --
4 "let the people be. There's a convoy at 8.00." He said, "They should be
5 killed." And they said to him, "Leave the people alone. There's a convey
6 for them at 8.00 to take them to Olovo."
7 And we lined up two by two. We held hands. We were to go along
8 the Drina River, and that is how they let us go. We got to the square,
9 and that day we left. That was the last day.
10 Q. Did these people --
11 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Just one moment. Are you able to
12 tell me, Mr. Groome, whether any of this was in her statement.
13 MR. GROOME: It was not, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think that raises an issue which we had
15 better discuss in the absence of the witness.
16 MR. GROOME: We'll excuse her.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, we want to discuss that material you've just
18 given us, and we'll have to do it when you are out of court. So if you
19 would go with the usher for a few moments, we'll let you back into court
21 [Witness stood down]
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, it produces a problem. We'll have to
23 hear what Mr. Domazet wants to say about it, but if none of that was in
24 the statement, there are problems with us taking any account of it, where
25 the Defence has had no warning that it's going to be given.
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution had no warning that she
2 was going to introduce that. Obviously we didn't ask any questions
3 regarding that.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not trying to assign blame, I'm trying to work
5 out what we can do with it. She had to say it, but what can we do with
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it would be the Prosecution position
8 that if a witness, during the course of their testimony recalls additional
9 information, the mere fact that it wasn't contained in their original
10 statement shouldn't be a legal bar to the Court listening to that
11 evidence. Of course, the Court -- Mr. Domazet is free to argue the
12 credibility of that additional information and the Court is free to weigh
13 it as it sees fit, but I don't think there should be any legal bar.
14 JUDGE HUNT: It depends, does it not, upon the nature of the
15 additional material? If it is material of this type, my own view would be
16 that the Defence must be given fair warning of it and, if necessary, the
17 opportunity to consider it, to investigate it, and then to answer it.
18 If this had just been some minor matter, I would agree with you
19 that most counsel for an accused would be able to take it in their
20 stride. But this is hardly that.
21 MR. GROOME: May I suggest the following then, Your Honour? That
22 we conclude with this witness today, and if Mr. Domazet does seek to do
23 some additional investigation, we can make arrangements for this witness
24 to be recalled at a later time for additional cross-examination.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That seems a reasonable thing.
1 Well, Mr. Domazet, I would not expect you to be able to stand up
2 and cross-examine her at this stage. Obviously, you will have some sort
3 of an argument as to the credit to be given to it because it was not in
4 the statement, but it is of some importance. What do you suggest that we
5 should do to enable you to investigate those allegations before we decide
6 whether we should any notice of them?
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is true that none of
8 what the witness started recounting just now can be found in the
9 statement. It is for me extremely important, because the witness can have
10 a lot of problems, too, if it is established in this court that on the
11 14th of June Mitar Vasiljevic was transferred to the Uzice hospital and he
12 could not have been in Visegrad, as this witness is claiming today, and I
13 hope the Court will be able to establish that.
14 I am particularly surprised by this statement, which she must have
15 known about at the time she gave her previous statement. I personally
16 cannot fathom any reasons why she should not have said that before. And I
17 think it is important, and that I would indeed need time to perhaps
18 prepare, if the witness testifies about these events, for me to prepare
19 for cross-examination at a later stage, as has been suggested by my
20 learned friend.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that is a very proper approach to it, but how
22 long do you think that you would need to make some investigation?
23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Not much time, Your Honour, because
24 these are things that I am quite familiar with. So maybe I would need to
25 talk to my client once again, though it is clear to me that the time the
1 witness is referring to is a time that we claim Mitar Vasiljevic could not
2 have been in Visegrad. So maybe already tomorrow I would be ready.
3 JUDGE HUNT: We understand what your case is on this issue very
4 clearly, Mr. Domazet. Very well, then. Well, it may be better then if we
5 leave this witness and to finish tomorrow, reserve the re-examination
6 until tomorrow, and then you and Mr. Domazet can sort out between you what
7 would be the best time to call her tomorrow to finish her evidence.
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Would that be suitable, Mr. Domazet?
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, quite, Your Honour, yes.
11 JUDGE HUNT: And if you have any particular problems, Mr. Domazet,
12 don't hesitate to raise them, because it is, if I may say so, fairly
13 substantial, the nature of the allegation she's making, quite apart from
14 the time when she says that she saw your client.
15 All right. Well, then, we'll stand that witness down. Can we
16 proceed with your next witness?
17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Just so that the record is
18 complete on such an important issue, I would like to indicate that the
19 statement that we're concerned with was taken on the 20th of January this
20 year, over eight and a half years after the events that the witness was
21 testifying about.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, this has been a problem with which this
23 Tribunal is bedevilled, and there are various ways a in which a Tribunal
24 can look at it and it depends on the particular witness, the particular
25 circumstances. Quite often it's the fact that they're being
1 cross-examined that prompts their memory with fresh details.
2 I think that we're all sufficiently experienced in relation to
3 drawing inferences of fact from this sort of thing. There's nothing we
4 can solve in advance, as it were. But it's not just the time in which she
5 says that this happens. It's the nature of the allegations she made,
6 which are quite substantial.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: So we will stand the witness down. Have you got
9 somebody who can explain to her she will be coming back tomorrow?
10 MR. GROOME: The fact that she's already on cross-examination, I
11 would prefer not to talk with her, but if we could just have the VWS
12 people explain to her that that she'll be back tomorrow.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps if you could have somebody go to the VWS so
14 they can explain it to her now that she isn't finished but she will be
15 brought back tomorrow.
16 Very well, then. We'll proceed with the next witness.
17 MR. GROOME: I'll defer to my colleague, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Bauer.
19 MS. BAUER: Your Honour the Prosecution is calling VG80. The
20 witness sheet will --
21 JUDGE HUNT: 8-0; right?
22 MS. BAUER: 8-0, yes. The witness sheet is pre-numbered 77.
23 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P77, and it is
24 under seal.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, will you please make the solemn declaration in
2 the document which the usher is showing you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, madam.
6 WITNESS: WITNESS VG80
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Bauer.
9 Examined by Ms. Bauer:
10 Q. Witness VG80, the Court has granted you protective measures in
11 form of a pseudonym called VG80. You will be referred to, throughout the
12 proceedings, as VG80. You will be shown now a piece of paper. Could you
13 please state just yes or no whether it contains your name and date of
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. In 1992, were you married and lived with your two children in the
17 town of Visegrad?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was there a time in spring 1992 when paramilitary formations took
20 over the town?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What kind of paramilitary formations were they, those?
23 A. They were the White Eagles, the Seselj people, the Arkan people,
24 and the Serb police.
25 Q. Were they mostly involved in taking men from their residences?
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. The men that were taken, what kind of ethnicity were they?
3 A. They were predominantly of Muslim ethnicity.
4 Q. Were they also involved in searching apartments?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. What did they search for?
7 A. They searched for weapons. Their excuse was that they were
8 looking for weapons.
9 Q. Was your apartment repeatedly searched?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. Were there two occasions where your apartment was searched by two
12 people called Milan Lukic and Sredoje Lukic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know Milan Lukic from before the war?
15 A. I didn't know Milan Lukic before the war.
16 Q. Did you know Sredoje Lukic before the war?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Did you know what he did, where he worked at?
19 A. I knew that he worked in the Visegrad police, in the SUP.
20 Q. Did you learn to which group they belonged?
21 A. I heard they belonged to the White Eagles group, and I only knew
22 that this was a paramilitary formation. I don't know exactly whether they
23 belonged to that paramilitary formation, the White Eagles, for some other
24 paramilitary formation.
25 Q. Were they armed at that time?
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. Did they threaten you in any way?
3 A. Sredoje Lukic threatened the first time, and the second time it
4 was Milan Lukic. So they alternated.
5 Q. What did they say when they threatened you?
6 A. When they threatened us, they swore at us. They threatened us and
7 made us tell them where the weapons were, where the men were, that the
8 women would be taken away.
9 Q. Did you have any weapons?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was there a night when another soldier from the White Eagles came
12 to your apartment?
13 A. Yes, there was.
14 Q. When was this? Sorry, I don't see the answer recorded. It could
15 be that --
16 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't hear her.
17 MS. BAUER:
18 Q. Could you please speak up and repeat the answer another time.
19 A. Where or when did that happen? What was the question?
20 Q. When approximately this happened.
21 A. It was the end of the month of June.
22 Q. Was that the night when your husband was taken away?
23 A. No. They took my husband away on July 2nd.
24 Q. Thank you. This is the incident I would like to talk to you
25 about. And that night, you said a soldier from the White Eagles came.
1 How did you know it was a soldier from the White Eagles?
2 A. Well, when he took my husband away, he came back within half an
3 hour and he looked for me. I had left and went to another apartment. He
4 looked for me and found me in that other apartment.
5 That night, first he beat me up, then he raped me, and then he
6 mistreated me. And when I got up in the morning, I realised that he had a
7 badge that had fallen from his uniform. That was a badge belonging to the
8 White Eagle formation.
9 Q. Was that the next morning that you also decided to leave
11 A. Yes. Well, I looked for my children. I found them. They were
12 separated from me. When I found my children, I decided to leave Visegrad
13 and not wait any longer.
14 Q. Did you go to Babin Potok that day?
15 A. Yes. I went to Babin Potok from there because my mother lives
17 Q. Were you told that day that it was the 3rd of July 1992?
18 A. They Told me when they saw me that it was July 3rd.
19 Q. What else did they tell you?
20 A. They asked me about my husband, where he was, what happened to
22 Q. Did you ever see your husband again after the events of that
24 A. No. I never saw him again.
25 Q. Did you know the accused, Mitar Vasiljevic, from before the war?
1 A. Well, I used to know him because Visegrad is a small place. We
2 used to know each other from sight. We -- well, I didn't have any closer
3 contacts with him. I just knew him from sight.
4 Q. How often would you estimate did you see him?
5 A. Well, it wasn't frequently. Well, accidentally we would meet in
6 town, but I didn't see him especially before the war, only just passing
7 through town I would come across him.
8 Q. How did you know it was Mitar Vasiljevic?
9 A. Well, in Visegrad, most people knew one another. It wasn't the
10 case of a big city. It was a small city where we knew one another
12 Q. What did you know was his profession? Sorry, did you know what
13 his profession was?
14 A. Well, I heard that he was a waiter. I never saw him actually
15 working as a waiter, but I heard that he was employed as a waiter in the
16 catering area.
17 Q. How would you describe did he look like at that time?
18 A. Well, at the time, well, he was of medium height. He was
19 plumpish. I don't know what else to say.
20 Q. What was his complexion like?
21 A. He was of a darker complexion, slightly darker complexion. He
22 wasn't of a light complexion.
23 Q. And his hair colour?
24 A. Well, brownish black. He was a dark man.
25 Q. What age would you have estimated him at that time? Young,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 middle-aged, old?
2 A. Before the war?
3 Q. Yes, before the war.
4 A. Well, he could have been less than 40.
5 MS. BAUER: Your Honour, at this time I would like to break
6 because we come into another issue which I wouldn't like to interrupt in
7 the middle.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Very well.
9 MS. BAUER: If this is possible.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I think it would be preferable if we continued with
11 this witness in the morning and then went back to the other one.
12 We will have an early mark. We will adjourn now and see you in
13 the morning at 9.30.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.56 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day
16 of September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.