Page 1292
1 Monday, 1 October 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Mitar Vasiljevic.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Bauer.
10 WITNESS: WITNESS VG78 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Examined by Ms. Bauer: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning, Witness VG78. Please sit back and relax.
14 A. Good morning.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Don't invite them to sit too far back, because we
16 have to hear them.
17 MS. BAUER:
18 Q. Going back to the afternoon hours of the 14th of June, 1992, you
19 told this Court that Mitar Vasiljevic singled out three men and brought
20 them back not even an hour later. Did you see how he singled them out?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where did he stand?
23 A. While I was in the house, he went into the house and just pointed,
24 said, "You, you, and you," and singled them out, and they went off with
25 him and he didn't bring them back within the hour.
Page 1293
1 Q. You mean he did bring them back within an hour?
2 A. Yes. He was in front of the door and they went into the house
3 themselves.
4 Q. Do you know or do you recall what he singled them out for?
5 A. I remember, allegedly, that they were to dig graves and to bury
6 our dead in the village of Nezuci.
7 Q. When you saw him singling these three men out, how far away would
8 you estimate was he from you?
9 A. About five steps away, because it was all in the house, in a room.
10 Q. Was there anything disguising his face at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you see his face?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. A couple of more questions regarding the last time you saw Mitar
15 Vasiljevic that evening. You said that you exited one house to go to
16 another one, and you told us that the outside was lit. Were there any
17 lights inside the house you stayed in?
18 A. No. Just outside.
19 Q. When you exited the first house, did you take any of your
20 belongings along?
21 A. No. Everything stayed in the house that we were in.
22 Q. Why didn't you take them along?
23 A. That's what they ordered, that we should leave our things so that
24 they could search them for weapons.
25 Q. Did you exit all together or individually?
Page 1294
1 A. No. One by one, one after the other.
2 Q. You told this Court that Mitar Vasiljevic was standing closer to
3 the house where you were supposed to be led into than the one which you
4 were in. How far away would you estimate was it from the shed to the
5 point where he was standing when you saw him?
6 A. About 20 steps away; 10, 20.
7 Q. You said he was walking around and watching people going from one
8 house to the other. At the time you recognised him, did he stand still or
9 was he walking?
10 A. Walking.
11 Q. Was there anything covering his face at that time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was he still armed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was there any doubt in your mind that the man you recognised as
16 Mitar Vasiljevic that night was the same man you saw during the day?
17 A. Well, I recognised him straight away. I saw it was him straight
18 away, looking at his profile. I didn't see him very well, but walking up
19 and down, I recognised him.
20 Q. You said that VG101 and you escaped. When did you make the
21 decision to escape, meaning spontaneously on the spot or earlier?
22 A. No. When we were in the house, a person told us that they had
23 raped her and that they had abused her and that our turn would come, and
24 that's why we tried to escape.
25 Q. You said a person told you. Could you tell the Court which person
Page 1295
1 that was?
2 A. Well, I don't remember the first and last name, but I know that
3 she sat together with us, and that's what she told us.
4 Q. Who ran to the shed first, VG101 or you?
5 A. I was already there at the end -- by the shed near the house. I
6 just heard a rustling noise nearby, and I saw VG101 and I went after her,
7 and that's how we escaped together down by the creek.
8 Q. Did you turn towards the town downstream of the creek or upwards
9 of the creek?
10 A. No, not towards town but along the creek, away from town. The
11 direction was away from town.
12 Q. Did you hear or see anything else coming from the direction of the
13 house that you just escaped from?
14 A. No. We went further away and reached a village called "Babin
15 Potok." We arrived the next day, not that evening but the following day,
16 at around 5.00, going through the woods.
17 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, I would like to go into a short private
18 session for the introduction of a document.
19 JUDGE HUNT: What is it, a photo?
20 MS. BAUER: Well, it has a number of names which would identify
21 this witness.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. Private session, please.
23 MS. BAUER: And the document is marked P68.
24 JUDGE HUNT: You mean it's already an exhibit?
25 MS. BAUER: It is not an exhibit. It is only a document marked as
Page 1296
1 P68.
2 [Private session]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 1297
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [Open session]
6 MS. BAUER: And could I please tender this exhibit as P68?
7 JUDGE HUNT: We're now in public session. Any objection to that,
8 Mr. Domazet?
9 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Exhibit P68, and it is under
11 seal.
12 MS. BAUER: Thank you, VG78. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. On the 14th of June, 1992, you started out from your village; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you remember what day of the week it was?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you remember, at the place called "Greben," that you met and
23 were accompanied for a time by a Serb?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If I were to tell you the name, "Mico Lipovac," does that ring a
Page 1298
1 bell?
2 A. No.
3 Q. During your journey to Visegrad, did anybody from your column from
4 Koritnik give up and decide not to go further?
5 A. I don't remember. I don't remember anybody staying behind.
6 Q. Your sister went with you; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you ever separated throughout that journey?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So you went together all the time and you were together at all the
11 places that you spoke about; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you came to Visegrad and came up to the hotel that you refer
14 to as the new hotel --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- who did you see first of the Serbs who were there?
17 A. I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic and several -- and there were
18 several others. I knew them by sight, but I didn't know who they were
19 exactly. I didn't know their first and last names.
20 Q. So he was already in front of the hotel when you appeared with the
21 group from Koritnik, is that right, and he was with some other people as
22 well?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember that in 1995 you gave a statement in Visoko to the
25 MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
Page 1299
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. That was at the beginning of the year sometime, less than three
3 years after the event; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you tell them the whole truth about what had happened that day
6 on that occasion?
7 A. I think I talked about it. There wasn't much time, and as the
8 days went by and the years went by, you can't remember everything, you
9 know, what happened and how it happened.
10 Q. Yes. As you gave the statement at the beginning of 1995, and you
11 yourself state that your memory and recollections were better then than
12 they were later on -- would you say that was true? Would you agree with
13 that?
14 A. Well, I had the same recollection. Maybe I didn't remember all
15 the details and points, but I put them in the second statement.
16 Q. Yes, I understand. You say -- what you're saying is that in the
17 second statement that you gave to the investigators, you added something
18 that you had recollected later on.
19 A. Yes, that's right, because I couldn't think of everything at the
20 time, couldn't remember everything at the time.
21 Q. What I'm asking you now is: What you remembered at the time and
22 recounted was fresh in your mind, and you were probably telling the truth
23 about what had happened at that time; is that right?
24 A. Yes. I told the truth in the first statement and I told the truth
25 in the second statement, as far as I knew.
Page 1300
1 Q. Do you recall having said in the first statement which you gave in
2 January 1995, in Visoko, that, and I quote:
3 "In front of the Red Cross, in the Mahala settlement, Mitar took
4 us off, whose surname I don't know, but he lived in the village of
5 Pozdercici, and he was with two other Chetniks at the time."
6 A. Yes. I know that he was from Prelovo. Whether he lived there or
7 not, or somewhere in town, I don't know, but I did know him and I knew his
8 face. He was well known to me. I would see him around town. He would be
9 a passerby that I would recognise.
10 Q. But let me remind you. You said on the occasion: "A certain
11 Mitar," to quote you, "whose surname I do not know." So in 1995 you
12 stated that you did not know his surname, whereas in your later statement,
13 in the subsequent statement, given after he was arrested, you gave us the
14 surname Vasiljevic.
15 A. Yes, because I couldn't remember his surname, and then I
16 remembered what his surname was.
17 Q. If I understand you correctly, you said -- the name you gave at
18 the MUP at the time was just Mitar, because you couldn't recall his
19 surname; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But I assume that you knew what he looked like, because much less
22 time had elapsed. Did you hear my question, madam?
23 A. No. Could you repeat it, please?
24 Q. You couldn't remember the surname, but I assume you knew what he
25 looked like very well, judging by your description, because it was only
Page 1301
1 two and a half years after the event; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion, you said that Mitar,
4 without a surname, you say, and I quote:
5 "Mitar was wearing a civilian dress with a sajkaca or cap on his
6 head, whereas his escorts, the people with him, had camouflage uniforms on
7 and were armed with rifles."
8 A. Well, I remembered later on, I remembered that he had a hat and
9 coat on. First of all, I thought he had a hat and coat on, and then I
10 thought he -- remembered he had a camouflage uniform on.
11 Q. Do you remember having made this statement, regardless of the fact
12 that you remembered later details for the second statement? Is this what
13 you said to the MUP in 1995?
14 A. Well, I don't remember exactly. I can't remember.
15 Q. If we were to show you the statement, could you take a look at the
16 statement to see if it is indeed your own statement with your signature at
17 the bottom.
18 A. Yes, I can have a look.
19 Q. You said a moment ago that you remembered later that he was
20 wearing a camouflage uniform. Do you mean -- are you referring to the
21 statement you gave to the investigator of The Hague Tribunal?
22 A. Yes. I gave a statement then and said that he was wearing a coat
23 and hat on his head and that he had the multicoloured uniform type of
24 clothing.
25 Q. That was the statement you gave this year, at the beginning of
Page 1302
1 this year; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What would you say was correct? Was he wearing civilian clothing
4 with a sajkaca or a type of hat on his head, as you said in 1995, or was
5 he wearing a coat with a multicoloured uniform and hat, as you stated this
6 year?
7 A. With a coat and hat on his head and a uniformed suit,
8 multicoloured.
9 Q. Do you remember, when you testified here before the Court at the
10 beginning, having stated that he had an SMB, that is, an olive-grey
11 uniform?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So according to you, he was wearing a multicoloured uniform or
14 what is commonly referred to as a camouflage uniform; is that what you had
15 in mind?
16 A. Yes, the camouflage multicoloured clothing.
17 Q. Can you remember today, as regards the statement that you gave to
18 MUP in 1995, what you stated about the event itself on that night, the
19 event involving the fire and the killing of your fellow villagers?
20 A. I may have left out some things and perhaps added something else
21 here, but I don't think that there is any significant difference between
22 the two.
23 Q. I will try to remind you of that statement to refresh your memory,
24 because there is a difference concerning the fact that in that statement
25 concerning the event when you and your sister fled, you failed to mention
Page 1303
1 the presence of Mitar, whom on that day you had seen and told us about
2 what he was doing. I will quote your statement, and I should like you to
3 confirm whether that indeed was your statement and whether it was
4 correct. You said that:
5 "In the evening, around 23.30, Milan Lukic arrived in the house
6 wearing a camouflage uniform. I know him from the primary school, and I
7 heard that before the aggression he had worked in Obrenovac. He was
8 accompanied by five or six armed Chetniks, including a young boy aged 15
9 who provoked us. And when a child started to cry, he took out a knife and
10 he said, 'Bring it over so that I can slaughter him.' Lukic ordered us to
11 go over to the adjacent house and leave our belongings there because
12 allegedly they wanted to inspect our belongings and search them for
13 weapons. So one by one we went to this other house, which was some 20
14 metres away from this one. As we were crossing over, me and my sister
15 escaped and hid behind a shed."
16 And then you went on to enumerate the persons who were with you,
17 but you didn't mention that on that night you saw -- or you never
18 mentioned the presence of the man whom you referred to as "Mitar," that
19 is, the same person whom you had seen in front of the hotel that
20 afternoon.
21 A. As far as I remember, I didn't state that Milan Lukic entered the
22 house that particular night because I didn't see him. I don't know
23 whether he was outside. But as for Mitar Vasiljevic, I saw him in front
24 of the door as I was trying to escape. I saw his profile and I recognised
25 him as being Mitar Vasiljevic. As for Milan Lukic, he did not go into the
Page 1304
1 house that particular night, but in the morning. As for this young boy
2 whom they wanted to slaughter, that is true, but that happened during the
3 day, not during the night. That is what I stated, as far as I can
4 remember now.
5 Q. What was it that happened during the day, according to you? Could
6 you please repeat?
7 A. That happened around 1.00 or 2.00 p.m., when Mitar [as
8 interpreted] Lukic took out a knife to slaughter a young boy. But Milan
9 Lukic did not slaughter him but he grabbed him, and that is what I
10 remember very well. It was not in the evening that Milan Lukic arrived in
11 the house, because that night there was no light in the house. There was
12 only some light outside the house. And we were leaving the house one by
13 one at that time. And that is, I believe, what I stated.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, Mr. Domazet. Madam, there's a problem
15 when the two of you, counsel and yourself, are speaking the same
16 language. The interpretation of your answers into the English and French
17 language for us is difficult where you answer the question straight away.
18 If you pause slightly before you answer a question, the interpreters will
19 be able to keep up with you. So will you please pause before you answer
20 Mr. Domazet's questions.
21 Yes, Mr. Domazet.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do I understand you, madam, when you say that Milan Lukic never
25 entered the house in the evening?
Page 1305
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1306
1 A. Yes, I never saw him, but he did come into the house around 1.00
2 or 2.00 p.m. But I was so afraid, I didn't dare look at the clock, so I
3 didn't know when people were coming in or going out. But he personally
4 came into the house. He wanted us to give him gold and money. He told us
5 that if we didn't give him those, that he would cut off fingers or ears
6 and things like that. So we gave him the gold and the money, and they
7 took everything away.
8 Q. Yes. But that took place in the afternoon?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. However, your statement concerned the event which took place in
11 the evening, the event involving the whole group which was made to go from
12 one house to another house.
13 A. I'm not talking about the event which took place in the afternoon
14 hours.
15 Q. Would you please let me finish, madam, and then proceed with your
16 question [as interpreted]. You stated that in the evening, around 11.30,
17 that Milan Lukic came, wearing a camouflage uniform, together with five or
18 six other uniformed Chetniks wearing camouflage uniforms and weapons, and
19 you stated that the group included a young man, age 15, who provoked you
20 in the way that I described a moment ago. But you said now that that was
21 what Lukic did in the afternoon. So you were describing the event which
22 took place in the evening and everything else that took place at that
23 time. Except for Milan Lukic and this young Chetnik, you didn't recognise
24 anyone else. In particular, you didn't say that the individual whom you
25 had seen on that day as being Mitar, that he was there together with them
Page 1307
1 on that night. So that is the difference that I'm talking about in your
2 statements. Could you give us an explanation for that?
3 A. As I was leaving the house when they came to take us over to the
4 second house, he was standing in front of the door with a man with a
5 moustache whom I didn't know. And as people were moving towards this
6 other house, they were following them, they were escorting them, and there
7 was a smaller group of us who remained in the first house. And it was at
8 that moment that I managed to escape. And I recognised him. I saw him
9 standing together with Milan and others. But I didn't see him in front of
10 the door as I was going -- as I was getting out of the house, I didn't see
11 that. I just saw an individual with a moustache and a rifle. And at that
12 time, we were leaving the house one by one. We were not -- we didn't
13 leave the house together, but one after the other.
14 Q. Yes, I understand that, madam. I understand that your testimony
15 is that you did not see him in front of the house. However, in the
16 statement that you gave to the MUP, while describing this particular
17 event, it seems that you didn't see him at all at that time. And my
18 question is: Why didn't you mention him when you gave that statement,
19 particularly in view of the fact that your memory was much more fresh at
20 that time than later on, than after his arrest?
21 A. Well, it was difficult for me to remember everything. The taking
22 of the statement didn't last very long, some 10 or 15 minutes, and it
23 happened in 1995 and it was impossible for me to remember everything.
24 Q. Would you be able to mark the spot where you, as you told us
25 today, saw the individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic, on the
Page 1308
1 photograph, indicating the relevant location?
2 A. Well, I can have a look at the photograph, but it happened a long
3 time ago. A lot of things have changed. I'm not sure I would be able to
4 recognise it.
5 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission, I
6 should like to show the witness the photograph which is in evidence. It
7 is a Prosecution exhibit, and some witnesses have already used this
8 photograph in their evidence.
9 JUDGE HUNT: It may be that we can get a clean copy of it.
10 Is there one available, Ms. Bauer?
11 What's the number of it?
12 MS. BAUER: Exactly.
13 JUDGE HUNT: What's the number of it, Mr. Domazet?
14 MR. DOMAZET: 17.
15 JUDGE HUNT: 17 --
16 MR. DOMAZET: 3.
17 JUDGE HUNT: 3.
18 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: 17.3. Well, the witness is being shown a clean copy
20 of it, so that you had better mark it, and it will be put on the ELMO,
21 please.
22 MS. BAUER: Do you require black and white copies? I have more of
23 them.
24 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Yours is better.
25 JUDGE HUNT: The colour on the ELMO has gone right out today.
Page 1309
1 They've all got green roofs.
2 You proceed, Mr. Domazet.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Madam, do you recognise the photograph, indicating the house where
5 you were and the house where you were taken to, and could you indicate the
6 two on the ELMO? First of all, the house where you were on that night.
7 A. No, I can't remember this. I mean, it was all so long ago. But I
8 think that it would have been the one without the roof, and then we went
9 over there to Adem's house, I believe it was.
10 Q. Do you recognise the house where you were up until the time when
11 Milan Lukic came with his group and made you go over to this other house?
12 A. I think this one here.
13 Q. Could you indicate with the pointer on the ELMO so that everybody
14 can see.
15 A. I believe it was this one, this house here, that they were
16 crossing.
17 Q. Very well. Would you please mark it with number "1." Could you
18 mark the house with number "1" and circle it. You can put it on the
19 house, yes.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. And could you now identify the house where you were on that
22 night.
23 A. [Indicates]
24 Q. If that is the house in question, would you please mark it with
25 number "2."
Page 1310
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Could you now mark the location where you said you had seen the
3 individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.
4 A. No. No. I just cannot find my bearings here. No.
5 Q. Could you tell us what was the distance between that individual
6 and the house that you marked with number "1" at the moment when you saw
7 him?
8 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear your question. I don't understand your
9 question.
10 Q. Can you remember how far that individual was from the house which
11 you marked with number "1," the Omeragic house, at the moment you saw him?
12 A. He was standing in front of the door of that house, but I don't
13 remember exactly how far it was. I didn't measure the distance. I don't
14 know. He was next to this other house, and that is where I saw him.
15 Q. Could you see the spot where you and your sister hid when you
16 escaped on this photograph?
17 A. As far as I can remember, we left the house --
18 Q. Could you please put it back on the ELMO and indicate it there.
19 A. There was a shed here, and it was from this side of the house that
20 we went and headed towards the creek, and from there we went on down
21 towards the town.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, there's a problem every time you ask the
23 witness to point to something on the photograph. She leans right over and
24 then loses the distortion of her face. So the audiovisual director is
25 very concerned that, if we can, we should ask her to mark things whilst
Page 1311
1 the photograph is in front of her, but then she can show it to you with
2 the pointer once it's been put back onto the ELMO.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
4 Q. Madam, would you please take the photograph and put it in front of
5 you. And would you now look carefully at the photograph to see whether
6 you can see the spot where you and your sister were hiding. And if you
7 can please mark that spot, if you can, with number "3" and encircle it.
8 But please do not move from your spot here, and then you will give the
9 marked photograph to the usher.
10 A. I remember very well that there was a creek there, but I was so
11 afraid. I don't know exactly where it was that we were hiding, because we
12 left this spot here and headed off towards the town. But the fear was so
13 great. We were trying to leave the place, leave this hellish place as
14 soon as possible. It's not that we were hiding there. We left the place
15 immediately and went further.
16 Q. Yes. You moved on from there. But as far as I can understand,
17 your sister and yourself at one point in time took shelter behind a shed
18 and that you were able to see some individuals there and that it was after
19 that that you escaped.
20 A. No, I don't remember that. After we escaped and after we reached
21 the creek, I no longer saw anyone. That is what I believe I stated. We
22 jumped over some fences. I remember the fences and I remember some very
23 high grass. We managed to reach the main road leading to Babin Potok and
24 we spent the whole night walking around the area, around Babin Potok. We
25 couldn't get our bearings, and it was only in the following morning that
Page 1312
1 we were able to actually reach the village of Babin Potok. And we stayed
2 there for a while, but I don't know who was there and who remained
3 behind. I wasn't able to see what happened after that.
4 Q. Yes, but today you have stated that after you left the house and
5 as you were moving along, you were able to see the profile of the person
6 whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic.
7 A. Yes. When I got out of the house and when I was near the shed, as
8 I was about to move over to the other house, to the first house, I went
9 back when I heard that VG101 fell down next to me, and I followed her, and
10 that is how I escaped, so I could no longer see what was going on.
11 JUDGE HUNT: The document that she has been marking, do you want
12 that put into evidence?
13 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour, I would like to tender it in
14 evidence as an exhibit. The number "1" indicates the house to which,
15 according to her, people were brought to -- brought from the house which
16 she marked with number "2." There are no other markings on the
17 photograph, since the witness is unable to provide any further details.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Ms. Bauer?
19 MS. BAUER: No objections.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Exhibit D3. You may proceed, Mr. Domazet.
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Madam, so you have identified this person as Mitar Vasiljevic
23 today, and you saw his profile at the moment you and your sister escaped;
24 am I correct?
25 A. Yes, as I was going towards this house where the people who were
Page 1313
1 eventually burnt alive were. At that point in time, we turned off, we
2 fled towards the creek. We tried to leave the area as quickly as
3 possible. We didn't want to linger there.
4 Q. I should like to ask you a couple of questions concerning your
5 statement that on that afternoon, that is, after you reached the first
6 house, the individual whom you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic personally
7 selected several people to bury some dead bodies in the village of
8 Nezuci.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You didn't speak of that in your statements, neither in the
11 statement that you gave to the MUP, nor in the one that you gave to the
12 investigator. How is it that you remembered this particular detail today?
13 A. Well, I remembered this particular detail because I have been
14 thinking about this and I've been trying to remember all of the details,
15 and I just remembered that he came to the house and he took out three
16 individuals from the house, and that he returned them after a while,
17 because they personally told us after they had come back that it was Mitar
18 Vasiljevic personally who had taken them there and that he was standing
19 behind them as they were burying the dead. They were pale with fear, and
20 I remember one person who started to cry. And I asked him why he was
21 crying, what had happened, and he said, "It's terrible. I don't want to
22 talk about it." And that's how it happened.
23 Q. Was that immediately after he had put you up in that house, as you
24 stated?
25 A. Yes. I cannot recall exactly the time. One hour or half an hour
Page 1314
1 maybe. The fear was so great.
2 Q. Was he accompanied by any other Serb at that time?
3 A. They were standing in front of the door, they didn't enter the
4 house, and Milan entered the house.
5 Q. How many were they, the people who you said were standing in front
6 of the house?
7 A. I didn't count them. I was afraid.
8 Q. Did you see them?
9 A. Yes, I saw them. There were quite a lot of them. On one occasion
10 when I went out into the hall, I saw Milan Lukic take up a knife to
11 slaughter Almir, and I saw that there were a lot of them walking up and
12 down in front of the door. And I saw the boy had -- he was about 16. I
13 was mostly in the kitchen and in the room, but I didn't go out, and that
14 evening, before they came -- that evening, before they came to transfer us
15 to the other house.
16 Q. I asked you, madam, at the point where you say Mitar Vasiljevic
17 came into the house to select a few men to go and bury the dead. Focus on
18 that, please. And I asked you whether there were others, and you said,
19 yes, in front of the house. And I asked whether you had seen them. Are
20 you now describing to us the people that you had seen?
21 A. Yes, but they didn't enter the house. Only Mitar Vasiljevic
22 entered the house. They stayed in front of the door, the entrance to the
23 house.
24 Q. Yes. But you mention Milan Lukic and a young person. Were they
25 there then?
Page 1315
1 A. They were in front of the door, not inside.
2 Q. When you say, madam, that there were a lot of them, several of
3 them, but that you can't say exactly how many, would you say that there
4 were two or three of them or five or six of them? What would you say
5 corresponded to the situation; five or six or two or three?
6 A. There were about ten of them, not even five, six. There were ten.
7 Q. When the person whom you have identified as Mitar Vasiljevic came
8 back and brought the others back, was he alone or was he accompanied by
9 the same people you mentioned a moment ago?
10 A. I don't understand your question, really. I apologise.
11 Q. You said that about an hour later, the people who were taken off
12 to bury the dead were returned and that the same person returned them whom
13 you had identified as Mitar Vasiljevic. Now, did he come back himself
14 alone or with a group of men you mentioned earlier on?
15 A. Mitar Vasiljevic personally brought them back, and they told us
16 that the others were with them. And then they came into the house and sat
17 down. He brought them back. They buried the dead and brought the men
18 back.
19 Q. Yes, but what I'm asking you is this: Were they accompanied by
20 the same group of people who were there and accompanied them when the men
21 were taking off?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know who accompanied them when they came
23 back. But I know that they just mentioned that Mitar Vasiljevic had taken
24 them away and brought them back, and that there were others too, and that
25 they stood around, guarding over them, until they had buried all the dead.
Page 1316
1 Q. When you say, madam, that they told us that Mitar Vasiljevic had
2 driven them, did they tell you that that person drove them in a car? Were
3 they taken off in a car; is that what you mean?
4 A. Yes, in a car. They were taken by car.
5 Q. Did they tell you that he personally drove them?
6 A. Yes. Because they were older people, they knew him well. It was
7 the older generation.
8 Q. So they said that Mitar Vasiljevic had driven them away and that
9 they knew him very well; is that right?
10 A. Yes, they knew Mitar Vasiljevic, and there was some other people
11 with them whom they also knew. But as they were afraid, one man started
12 to cry and so on.
13 Q. Did they perhaps tell you what kind of vehicle it was?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you remember that on that day, while you were still in front of
16 the new hotel in Visegrad, that Serb policemen who were there singled out
17 some people also to take them to bury some dead?
18 A. I apologise. Do you mean in front of the hotel?
19 Q. Yes. While you were in front of the new hotel in Visegrad, before
20 you set off for the Mahala.
21 A. All I remember is that a man was taken off to the bridge. There
22 was a dog and they asked whose it was, and he said it was his, and they
23 ordered him to take the dog away and throw him over the bridge. But I
24 don't remember that they singled anybody out. I don't remember that. All
25 I remember is the incident with the dog.
Page 1317
1 Q. So you don't remember that while standing in front of the new
2 hotel, that they singled out anybody then, singled out people to bury the
3 dead; you don't remember that?
4 A. No, no, I don't. That happened in the Mahala, when we came to the
5 house, but not in front of the new hotel, no.
6 Q. Are you sure that the people didn't go back up there and that they
7 had left from the new hotel to the Nezuci place?
8 A. They personally came back to the house, the ones that went to bury
9 the dead in Nezuci, in the village of Nezuci. I personally saw them come
10 to the house, come inside and sit down.
11 Q. Yes, but my question is: Are you sure that they left from that
12 house and not perhaps from the new hotel in Visegrad?
13 A. Yes, I'm sure. I'm sure they went from that house.
14 Q. When you started out towards the Mahala, who escorted you, if
15 anybody?
16 A. Mitar Vasiljevic and the people who were with him came in front of
17 the door and we were put up in two houses. In one house there was Jusuf
18 Memic and the Delija family. Ajnija was her name. We were there in two
19 houses. I don't remember her husband's name. The third house was owned
20 by a man called Adem. But mostly we were in Jusuf Memic's house.
21 Q. Yes, but what I'm asking you is this: Mitar Vasiljevic and some
22 others accompanied you throughout the trip from the hotel to those houses;
23 is that right?
24 A. Yes. He was accompanied by two men, not more. There were two of
25 them.
Page 1318
1 Q. Did they walk behind you, in front of you, or beside you?
2 A. They were beside us, in front of us, behind us.
3 Q. Let me just remind you of a portion of your statement given to the
4 OTP investigator. You described the event in the following way: You said
5 that at the moment you arrived, the last buses had left Visegrad, that,
6 "There were policemen, Serb policemen, in the square who were discussing
7 what to do with us. Some of them suggested that we should be sent to the
8 Bikavac hotel; others suggested that we should go to the Mahala district,
9 where there were lots of empty Muslim houses. The discussion ended by
10 them taking a decision that we should go to the Mahala settlement on foot
11 and to Pionirska Street. That's what they decided. Nobody directed us or
12 took us to the settlement itself. However, we all knew where that street
13 was, and we hurried because it was already raining and we were drenched
14 and we wanted to change our clothes. We went into an empty house in the
15 street. I heard someone mention the name of the owner of the house, but I
16 don't remember the name, unfortunately."
17 Do you remember having said that in the statement you gave at the
18 beginning of this year to the OTP investigator?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that statement different to your statement today, your
21 testimony today?
22 A. Yes, it is a little different, but I couldn't remember, and I said
23 a moment ago that I recalled what happened and that we did not come to the
24 Mahala district in front of Jusuf Memic's house alone. I remember them
25 saying, "You can go into any of the houses, because they're all empty, all
Page 1319
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1320
1 the Muslim houses." But the buses had already left. We were to arrive
2 there by 12.00 and to go to Kladanj. We left home at 6.00.
3 Q. Do you recognise what I quoted to be the statement you gave to the
4 OTP investigator?
5 A. I don't understand what you mean.
6 Q. What I have just read out from your statement to the investigator,
7 do you acknowledge that you did indeed tell the OTP investigator what I
8 read out?
9 A. I said that we were escorted to the Mahala.
10 Q. Had you said that, they would probably have recorded it in your
11 statement, because the statement was read back to you and you signed it.
12 But it says here that nobody directed you, that nobody escorted or
13 accompanied you, and that you yourselves went off alone and went into one
14 of the empty houses.
15 A. Yes, but I said that I couldn't remember everything, all the
16 details, until I sat down to think about it, and then I started
17 remembering.
18 Q. Can I take your answer to mean that you did not recollect that in
19 January this year when you gave the statement to the investigator, but
20 that you have since remembered it now, that you remembered it and
21 testified to it now?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigator, after describing
24 how you entered the two houses and where you all where, you said:
25 "Then Mitar Vasiljevic and four Serbs came to the house, and [redacted]
Page 1321
1 [redacted], was handed a message from them. It
2 was a piece of paper with several sentences written on it."
3 Is that correct or is it correct that Mitar Vasiljevic came with
4 you, as you describe, and told you which house to go into?
5 A. Yes. He told us which house to go into, and first he singled out
6 these three people. And then half an hour or an hour later, 30 minutes
7 perhaps, I heard from a woman. I heard her saying, "Mitar Vasiljevic is
8 asking somebody to come out and give a piece of paper for security, for
9 safety reasons," and if anybody were to turn up, we were to show this
10 piece of paper or to call him. I didn't see this piece of paper. Whether
11 Osman went out or Meho, I can't remember. I don't remember who went out
12 to collect this piece of paper, but someone did, and Mitar gave that
13 person this piece of paper and said that if anybody came to mistreat us,
14 we should just contact him and there would be no problem. That's what I
15 remember happening.
16 Q. So others told you about that, the other people who were with you;
17 is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. They said that Mitar had given one of them a piece of paper like
20 that?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. But you didn't actually see this taking place, did you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You said today that a person slapped someone. Can you be more
25 specific and describe that incident for us, please.
Page 1322
1 A. Yes. It was in front of the hotel. He slapped a person. She had
2 said something. And she wasn't quite normal. I don't remember what she
3 said, but he came up to her and slapped her. And her mother said to her
4 [as interpreted], "Don't do that. She doesn't know what she is doing."
5 He said, "What do you mean she doesn't know what she is doing?" He added
6 something else, but I couldn't understand what he was saying. But that's
7 what I heard and that's what happened.
8 Q. So this took place in front of the hotel, did it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the person who did that you have said was Mitar Vasiljevic; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That person, when you saw them the first time, in addition to your
14 description of the events, was there any characteristic trait that you
15 noticed on that person?
16 A. No. He was wearing a hat and coat and that uniform type of
17 multicoloured clothing.
18 Q. Did he have a moustache or a beard?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you happen to hear anybody who was also called Mitar in
21 Visegrad, anybody else whose name was Mitar in Visegrad?
22 A. No, I don't remember.
23 Q. You don't remember that other people said that there was a person
24 called Mitar?
25 A. No.
Page 1323
1 Q. The event you have just described, that is to say, the slapping of
2 this child in front of the hotel, you never described that event either in
3 your statement to the investigator or to the MUP.
4 A. That's right, but I didn't say "child." I said it was a woman, a
5 female person. She was about 35 years old, this female.
6 Q. Very well. Maybe I misunderstood you. You said that she was a
7 little retarded, so I took it to be a child. But anyway, you don't make
8 any mention of that fact either to the investigator or the MUP; is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Can you tell us why, how come you didn't remember that incident
12 earlier and recount it?
13 A. Well, I did remember it, but we didn't have time to go into all
14 that. I didn't have time to recount all that. I didn't have two, three,
15 four hours. It was always for a brief space of time. I would discuss it
16 briefly.
17 Q. In the place where you lived this year and last year, where you've
18 been living, did you have occasion to see on television the arrest of
19 Mitar Vasiljevic? Did you learn that he had been arrested and was in The
20 Hague on television?
21 A. No, I didn't see him on television, but I heard about it, but I
22 didn't see it.
23 Q. Do you watch television at all?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On Bosnia-Herzegovina television, is there a programme which is
Page 1324
1 called "The Hague Chronicle" once a week?
2 A. Yes, but I don't have time to watch it. I'm always working
3 outside.
4 Q. So you claim that you have never seen that programme, nor that you
5 ever saw him on the television screen?
6 A. No, I don't remember seeing it.
7 Q. Were there articles written about it in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. No, I don't know, I don't remember. I don't buy newspapers and I
9 don't read newspapers because I live in the village. I don't work in a
10 firm or company. I don't go to work and buy a newspaper on my way to work
11 and things like that.
12 Q. Well, can you tell me how you came to learn of his arrest and
13 when?
14 A. Well, I heard of it. I don't know exactly when I heard about it.
15 And I learned about it when the people from The Hague Tribunal came for me
16 to give a statement to them. I gave my statement, and then -- and from
17 that time onwards, I knew that he had been captured.
18 Q. Yes. But you gave your statement in January this year, and he was
19 arrested a long time ago, a year ago. Do you remember that?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Do you remember what I read to you a moment ago: that you told the
22 OTP investigators that in front of the hotel, Serb policemen and not the
23 individual you identified as Mitar Vasiljevic spoke about whether --
24 discussed whether you should go to Bikavac or Mahala?
25 A. Yes, it was the Serb police. As far as I remember, that's what I
Page 1325
1 said. And Mitar Vasiljevic was also there with his group of men, the
2 group of men he led, him, Mitar Vasiljevic. But, yes, the Serb police
3 were there too, but I didn't know any of them. I knew them by sight, of
4 course, yes, but I knew -- but I didn't know their names, first and last
5 names.
6 Q. When you say you didn't know their first and last names, whom do
7 you mean; the Serb policemen?
8 A. Yes, I mean the Serb policemen's names.
9 Q. My question was whether what you said in your statement is
10 correct, that is to say, that they discussed this point with you, with the
11 group, whether you should go to Bikavac or Mahala, that they were
12 discussing this and not the person whom you identified today as Mitar
13 Vasiljevic. You don't mention him then?
14 A. Yes, them and Mitar Vasiljevic, they were discussing this point
15 amongst themselves, discussing where to send us.
16 Q. Was that before or after what you said Mitar spoke about on that
17 occasion? Was it before, after, or at the same time?
18 A. As soon as we came to the hotel, they were discussing this. They
19 said that the buses had left, that we didn't have anywhere to go, and
20 where could we spend the night, because we were first in order the next
21 morning to go. That's what they were saying.
22 Q. Yes, that's what you said then. But you said that you yourselves
23 decided to go to the Mahala and that you yourselves went off in the
24 direction of Mahala.
25 A. Yes, that's right. I couldn't remember at the time. But since
Page 1326
1 then, I've remembered, so that's how it was.
2 Q. Madam, would you take a look at the January 1995 statement that
3 you gave to the Security Services Centre in Visoko. Is that your
4 statement, in fact, and is it your signature on your statement?
5 A. Yes, I'll take a look, gladly.
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I have the witness
7 shown that statement?
8 JUDGE HUNT: Do we have it?
9 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, I think that you have.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I don't. I think the OTP has got it, if anybody's
11 got it.
12 MS. BAUER: Sorry, I would have to check. I have an English copy,
13 but I'll check whether I have a B/C/S copy.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Does it have a number?
15 MS. BAUER: A number?
16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, a number.
17 MS. BAUER: It doesn't.
18 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Then we won't have it. Are you able to
19 identify that by any description, a date or something?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the date. It is mine; that is
21 to say, the signature is mine, the name and surname.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Bauer, does it have a date?
23 MS. BAUER: Yes. It is dated the 24th of January, 1995.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I suggest that the
Page 1327
1 witness reads through the statement carefully. As we're coming up to a
2 break, perhaps it would be a good idea to do this during the break, she
3 can do this during the break, and then she can tell us, when we reconvene,
4 whether it is indeed the statement she gave and signed.
5 JUDGE HUNT: She's already said it's got her signature on it. But
6 if you want her to check it through, that's all right. Have you got
7 something else to go on with until we adjourn?
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Your Honour, she could look
9 through the statement, read through it during the break, and then
10 afterwards she could tell us whether there is anything that is not correct
11 in the statement and why it is in the statement if that is so.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Domazet, that, if I may say so, is not a
13 very satisfactory way of cross-examination. If you want to take her to a
14 particular part of it, by all means do so. It's almost 11.00, so we'll
15 give her the opportunity of reading it. But I don't think that that's
16 going to help us very much unless you direct her attention to particular
17 matters that you want to have determined either to have been true or
18 untrue.
19 We'll adjourn now. We'll resume at 11.30.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
23 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Did you have an opportunity to read this statement during the
25 break?
Page 1328
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This is your statement that you gave and that you signed on the
3 24th of January, 1995?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you notice the part where you speak about having seen for the
6 first time, in front of the Red Cross building, the person by the name of
7 Mitar, whose last name you said you did not know, who was dressed in
8 civilian clothes with a sajkaca hat on his head and that he was unarmed?
9 A. Yes. It is stated here in my statement.
10 Q. Could you tell us -- could you tell the Court the difference
11 between sajkaca, a Serbian traditional hat, and a regular hat?
12 A. A regular -- he had a very large hat on his head, whereas
13 a sajkaca, as far as I remember, is closer to the head and it has
14 something on the front part, some kind of sign.
15 Q. Would it be correct for me to say that sajkaca doesn't have any
16 rim, unlike a hat, which does have a rim, and the hat, the particular hat
17 that you described, had an especially large rim?
18 A. Yes. Yes. He had a very large hat with a rim.
19 Q. Sajkaca is a typical cap, a typical hat usually worn by Serbs and
20 not Muslims; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And sajkaca does not have a rim at all?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Were you able to notice that in your statement, apart from the
25 place where you describe Mitar as wearing civilian clothes and a sajkaca,
Page 1329
1 no weapons at all, you also mentioned that a certain Meho from Sase gave
2 him a certificate? That is, apart from these two incidents, you made no
3 mention of him in that particular statement, including the event which
4 took place in Pionirska Street on that night; is that right?
5 A. Yes. I did mention Meho. He continued along the way with us. He
6 joined us in his village. He was also in the house, but I didn't tell his
7 name in this list that I made because I didn't know his surname then. But
8 I think that his surname is Jasarevic.
9 Q. Yes, but the reason I mentioned this was because, in your
10 statement, the person referred to as Mitar is mentioned only on these two
11 occasions, that is, when you saw him wearing a sajkaca, as you have
12 described, and also when you speak about a certain Meho from Sase, to whom
13 he allegedly gave some kind of certificate. So apart from these two
14 instances, you make no mention of him at all in your statement; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You have also described in that statement an event which -- that
18 is, the other event which took place at around 11.30, when you and your
19 sister escaped; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have testified today that your sister was with you throughout
22 that period of time, that is, from the beginning of the journey until the
23 end; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you ever separate at any point in time?
Page 1330
1 A. No.
2 Q. According to what you can remember, she was with you all the time?
3 A. Yes, also in the house where I was.
4 Q. And she went with you towards the house and she also left the
5 house with you when you escaped?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So if I understand you correctly, your sister was also able to see
8 and hear whatever you were able to see and hear?
9 A. Yes. She may have seen something that I didn't see at a
10 particular point in time, but more or less I think that throughout that
11 period of time, from the house up to the hotel, and when at Mahala and
12 onwards, we more or less saw the same.
13 Q. Did your sister also give a statement to the MUP of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina before she gave a statement to investigators of the OTP?
15 A. No, because I lived in Visoko and she didn't live there at that
16 time.
17 Q. She never told you anything about having given any other statement
18 concerning these events to some other authority?
19 A. Yes, she did, but to some ordinary people, some teachers or other
20 individuals who were involved in this. I remember a man from Zenica who
21 questioned her about it. But I didn't give a statement at that time at
22 all. But I don't exactly remember to whom she gave a statement.
23 Q. Was that an individual who was writing a book about those events
24 or an investigator from the MUP?
25 A. No, I don't think he was an investigator from the MUP. I think
Page 1331
1 that he was just an ordinary man. I don't -- I don't know. I can't
2 remember. It was a long time ago.
3 Q. When you testified today about the fact that he was wearing a very
4 large hat which was different from this sajkaca type of hat, can you
5 remember what colour it was; the hat, that is?
6 A. No -- I mean, yes, the hat. I thought you were referring to a
7 sajkaca. I think that the hat was grey, unicoloured.
8 Q. You described in detail what he was wearing. You didn't tell us -
9 you may have not noticed - what he was wearing on his feet, what kind of
10 footwear he was wearing.
11 A. No.
12 Q. So you don't remember what kind of footwear he was wearing,
13 whether he was barefoot or whether he had something else?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Before the time when you and your sister decided to leave the
16 column and try to escape, were you able to have a good view of the house
17 where people were being taken to?
18 A. No, just a little.
19 Q. In the statement that you made in January this year to the
20 investigator of the Prosecution, you said that you had seen armed men in
21 front of the house and on the sides of the house and that there was no
22 entrance door to that house?
23 A. Yes, because other people told me that there was no actual door,
24 that there was only a curtain hanging there.
25 Q. So you -- this is what you stated to the investigator on the basis
Page 1332
1 of what other people had told you; it is not something that you personally
2 saw?
3 A. No, I didn't come close, I didn't go into the house, so I didn't
4 see it.
5 Q. When you spoke about the event involving plunder and seizure of
6 belongings from you and others in which Milan Lukic took part, you told
7 the Court that it happened during the day, shortly after Mitar Vasiljevic
8 had left?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the statement you gave to the investigator, you said it was
11 dark, that it was dark in the house, and that there were only some street
12 lights outside. So what is true; can you remember now?
13 A. It is true that it was still day, 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., maybe even
14 4.00 p.m., when Milan Lukic came to the house and seized our money and our
15 gold.
16 Q. So since it was in the month of June, it could not have been dark;
17 it was still daylight?
18 A. Yes, one could see outside. It was not dark.
19 Q. Do you remember having stated that to the investigator, that is,
20 that you stated to the investigator that it was dark and that street
21 lights were on? Do you remember having said that?
22 A. As far as I can remember, yes. But when Milan Lukic came to the
23 house to take our money and our gold, it was still daylight.
24 Q. Let me just quote this very short portion from your statement, and
25 will you please confirm whether this is what you stated and if you
Page 1333
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1334
1 remember that:
2 "When it became dark, Milan Lukic appeared in the house. We were
3 inside, there was no electricity, and I believe that street lights were
4 already on. Members of his group were in front of his house. They came
5 in two cars. I didn't see the cars, but that is what I was told. We
6 gathered in the basement of the house."
7 A. Well, yes, maybe I -- my memory didn't serve me right at that
8 time. As far as I can remember now, it was still daylight. One could see
9 outside. And when we left the house, it was dark, it was in the evening.
10 There was no light in the house at that time, but I remember that the
11 street was lit.
12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further
13 questions for the witness, except that I would like to make an agreement
14 with the Prosecution as to certain differences in statements, certain
15 discrepancies concerning the statement given to the investigator, so that
16 we do not tender this into evidence, if possible.
17 JUDGE HUNT: You already have that, to a very large extent,
18 haven't you? Is there something that the witness didn't agree with? It's
19 only where the witness has not agreed that there is something different in
20 the statement. My recollection, which may prove to be faulty when the
21 transcript is read, is that the witness in each case agreed that she had
22 not included the particular matter or had agreed that she had included the
23 particular matter in her previous statements.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have not been provided with the
25 relevant statement, so what you have heard was just a simultaneous
Page 1335
1 interpretation of what the counsel quotes.
2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, one thing is the
3 statement that she gave to the MUP in 1995, where we clarified the
4 problem. However, the statement which was given to the investigator
5 contains certain discrepancies concerning some, in my opinion, very
6 crucial things. In the statement that she made to the investigator, from
7 that statement one can conclude that she didn't at all see the person whom
8 she identified as Mitar in front of the hotel. So in the statement given
9 to the investigator, she only referred to Serb policemen who told her
10 where to go and that after that --
11 JUDGE HUNT: Please don't repeat it all. We've heard it at least
12 twice during the cross-examination already. We know the point you've
13 made. I've suggested to you that the witness has agreed that she did not
14 include those matters in the statements. The matter that she did say she
15 agreed she included was the reference to or the description of the hat
16 that the man was wearing. Now, why is there any need to go through this
17 procedure if you've already got an agreement from the witness that those
18 discrepancies arise? I pointed out to you that this procedure is
19 available and it should be followed where the witness does not agree.
20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, if that's what
21 she has agreed with. However, it seems to me that the witness did not
22 agree that this is not contained in the statement given to the
23 investigator. If that is indeed correct, then of course there's no need
24 for me to repeat it.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, may I suggest to you you wait until you
Page 1336
1 see the transcript. If it's not there, then you raise it with the
2 Prosecution. But it has probably taken longer to debate this with you
3 than it would have taken to do it, but I'm trying to stop this happening
4 in every case. Where the witness does agree, there is no need to obtain
5 the Prosecution's acceptance. You wait until you've seen the transcript.
6 If there's something there that you say has not been agreed, then it can
7 be agreed.
8 May I also draw your attention to this: that if you want to
9 cross-examine the witnesses on their statements, as I think has been your
10 practice, it is best to ensure that the interpreters have copies of the
11 statements so that they can follow them. It's always easier for them to
12 ensure that they are using the same language as is in the statement. They
13 should be supplied, of course, by the Prosecution in any event, as I
14 understand it. But just would you please make certain that the
15 interpreters do have the statements before you cross-examine on them.
16 Now, is that the end of your cross-examination?
17 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 Ms. Bauer, that is something which the Prosecution should have
20 done. They should have supplied a whole set of these to the
21 interpreters.
22 MS. BAUER: My understanding is that probably the English versions
23 from the OTP statements have been supplied but not the copy of the MUP
24 statement, because --
25 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, I see. All right, then. Now, do you want to
Page 1337
1 re-examine?
2 MS. BAUER: Only two short questions.
3 Re-examined by Ms. Bauer:
4 Q. VG79 [sic], have you been ever asked to provide such details about
5 the events like you were inquired about today?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And what you told the Court today, is this the best recollection
8 of the events that occurred on the 14th of June, 1992?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. BAUER: Thank you very much. No further questions.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, madam, for coming to give
12 evidence. That finishes your task here. We're very grateful to you for
13 your assistance. You are now free to leave.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome.
17 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls its next witness,
18 VG38.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in
21 the document which the Court usher is showing you.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS VG38
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Page 1338
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Sit down, please.
2 Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examined by Mr. Groome:
5 Q. Good morning, Witness 38. Before we begin, you will be here for
6 quite some time; if you want to take off your jacket, please feel free to
7 take off your jacket if you so desire.
8 I'd ask that the witness be shown the pseudonym sheet, which is
9 document number 88.
10 JUDGE HUNT: This will be Exhibit P88 and it will be under seal.
11 MR. GROOME:
12 Q. Witness 38, I would ask you to take a look at Exhibit P88 in front
13 of you, and ask you, is that your name on the top line of that document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is that your date of birth on the second line of that
16 document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For the purposes of concealing your identity, we will refer to you
19 throughout the course of these proceedings as "Witness 38." I would ask
20 you, if you need to refer to any of the witnesses listed on that document,
21 that you please do so by referring to their number.
22 I'd like to begin by asking you to tell us a bit about your
23 background. The first question I would ask you is: Did you complete
24 primary school?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1339
1 Q. And where did you go to primary school?
2 A. In Visegrad. The name of the school was (redacted).
3 Q. And what street is that school located on?
4 A. In the neighbourhood called Mahala.
5 Q. Is that school across the street from the events that you are
6 going to testify about today?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. After finishing primary school, did you go to a secondary
9 technical school?
10 A. Yes, but that was in Sarajevo.
11 Q. And what profession did you learn?
12 A. Locksmith.
13 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
14 A. I'm a Muslim.
15 Q. I want to draw your attention back to 1992. How old were you at
16 that time?
17 A. Thirteen and a half.
18 Q. And what village did you grow up in?
19 A. Koritnik.
20 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to a specific day, the 15th of
21 April of 1992. Did something happen in the village of Koritnik on that
22 day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what was it that happened?
25 A. We were attacked by local Serbs, our neighbours, that is.
Page 1340
1 Q. And where did that attack come from?
2 A. From a neighbouring village, Koritnik. We lived nearby.
3 Q. Were any of the villagers from Koritnik injured in that attack?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you able to see that some bullets had hit houses in the
6 village?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you able to see whether or not bullets -- or some windows in
9 those houses had been shot out?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did there come a time that day that members or villagers from the
12 village of Koritnik left Koritnik that day?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And approximately how many villagers left that day?
15 A. Fifty-six, approximately.
16 Q. And where did those villagers go?
17 A. We went to the village of Brstanica.
18 Q. And where is that village in relation to the village of Koritnik?
19 A. The two villages are separated by the Drina River only.
20 Q. Is Brstanica a Muslim village?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And how did these people from Koritnik get to the village of
23 Brstanica?
24 A. Well, we went to the river by ourselves, and then we crossed the
25 river in boats.
Page 1341
1 Q. When you arrived at Brstanica, would you describe what you saw
2 when you arrived there.
3 A. We were met there by the Uzice Corps with trucks.
4 Q. And what happened in Brstanica?
5 A. We were forced to leave the village, that is, the neighbouring
6 villages surrounding the town of Visegrad, and then we were transported to
7 the stadium.
8 Q. And how were you transported to the stadium?
9 A. Some went on foot and some in trucks.
10 Q. How did you yourself go to the stadium?
11 A. In a truck.
12 Q. When you arrived at the stadium, were there other people present
13 in the stadium?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you approximate for the Court approximately how many people
16 were in the stadium?
17 A. There were about 6.000 people.
18 Q. And from what you could tell, what was the majority -- what was
19 the ethnic majority of those people?
20 A. Mostly they were Muslim.
21 Q. And what occurred in the stadium?
22 A. They separated military-age men.
23 Q. What happened to those men?
24 A. We haven't heard anything of them ever since.
25 Q. What else happened in the stadium that day?
Page 1342
1 A. They were looking for weapons.
2 Q. And how did they look for weapons?
3 A. They searched us.
4 Q. And were you yourself searched?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were the women in the crowd searched?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And were the children in the crowd searched?
9 A. All of them.
10 Q. Was anything said to the crowd at that time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did there come a time when you were allowed to leave the stadium?
13 A. Some did, some didn't, because we didn't dare go back.
14 Q. You didn't dare go back where?
15 A. The village of Koritnik.
16 Q. And so where did you go?
17 A. We stayed at the stadium, at the Drina Hotel.
18 Q. Where is the Drina Hotel in relation to the stadium?
19 A. In the middle.
20 Q. From this point in time onward, did you ever attend school again
21 in Visegrad?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How long did you stay in the Drina Hotel?
24 A. Fifteen days.
25 Q. And without telling us their names, would you tell us who you
Page 1343
1 stayed there with.
2 A. VG13, VG18 and VG084.
3 Q. And were there other people from Koritnik staying in the hotel at
4 that time as well?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, did there come a time when members of the Uzice Corps allowed
7 you to go and get some food?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And would you describe for the members of the Court how they
10 allowed you to go get food.
11 A. Well, when we went to the shops, they filmed it on -- with a
12 camera. When they didn't, they would curse and swear at us. When the
13 cameras were off, they would curse at us and swear at us.
14 Q. And approximately how many times were you allowed to go and get
15 food in this manner?
16 A. Just once.
17 Q. And where were the shops that you were allowed to go and get food
18 from?
19 A. Near the bus stop in Visegrad.
20 Q. After spending 15 days in the Drina Hotel, where did you go when
21 you left it?
22 A. We went to the village of Koritnik.
23 Q. And can you describe what you saw when you returned there.
24 A. As not everybody could go, there were some older women who stayed
25 in Koritnik village.
Page 1344
1 Q. And could you tell whether the house that you lived in had been
2 damaged or looted in any way when you were away?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So it was not damaged or looted; is that correct?
5 A. No, it wasn't.
6 Q. Did there come a time after you returned that you had
7 conversations with local Serbs regarding whether or not you should remain
8 in Koritnik?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you describe for us the contents of those conversations?
11 A. We talked to them about a return. Allegedly we weren't allowed to
12 be there because -- we shouldn't be there because one side would attack
13 us, but they didn't know which side, which army.
14 Q. And did these types of warnings continue throughout the month of
15 May?
16 A. Yes, they did.
17 Q. And in the early part of June?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I want to now draw your attention to the 13th of June. Do you
20 recall that day?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you recall somebody from another village coming to speak to
23 the members of your village?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was the name of this person?
Page 1345
1 A. I don't know his proper name, but I know his nickname.
2 Q. Would you tell us that, please?
3 A. Ciro.
4 Q. And did you know where this person was from?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what village was this person from?
7 A. Loznica.
8 Q. And can you tell us, approximately how far away is Loznica from
9 Koritnik?
10 A. Perhaps about 15 kilometres.
11 Q. Now, can you tell us what happened when this person you've
12 referred to as "Ciro" arrived in Koritnik?
13 A. Well, that we had to leave the village. They promised us buses to
14 take us to the free territory, that is to say, to Zenica.
15 Q. I'd ask you to use the words that this Ciro person used when he
16 told you this.
17 A. "You must leave the village because the army will attack," some
18 foreign army; they don't know which.
19 Q. Can you describe how this person was dressed?
20 A. He had a multicoloured uniform on.
21 Q. And what was the -- is this a camouflage uniform?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what was the predominant colour in that uniform?
24 A. Green.
25 Q. And was this person, Ciro, armed?
Page 1346
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that the village of Koritnik has both
3 Muslim families and Serb families living there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see Mr. Ciro address these warnings to any of the Serb
6 families?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So it was only addressed to Muslims?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Can you tell us approximately what time of day this occurred?
11 A. About 12.00, 1.00.
12 Q. And that is in the afternoon?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was your mother present during this morning?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And approximately how long did this interaction with this person
17 Ciro last?
18 A. Not more than 20 minutes.
19 Q. And were you able to see where Ciro went after he warned you?
20 A. He went back to where the Serbs were mostly.
21 Q. Is that the Serb houses in Koritnik?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Approximately how many Muslims were in the group with you that
24 were warned by him?
25 A. They were elderly persons who were not up to it, five of them.
Page 1347
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1348
1 They were not fit for service. There were about five of them.
2 Q. I want to draw your attention to that night. Did you and your
3 mother discuss whether you should try to leave Koritnik?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At that point in time, had you heard of Muslims being killed in
6 Visegrad?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you decide that night to leave Visegrad?
9 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
10 Q. Did you and your mother that night decide to leave Koritnik in the
11 municipality of Visegrad?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you pack that night?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you describe for us briefly what you packed to take with you.
16 A. Mostly clothes; underwear and clothes.
17 Q. Did you pack any food?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you given an instruction regarding how much food to pack?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And did you pack any photos or other family possessions?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On this night, did you think that you would be coming back or
24 returning to Koritnik?
25 A. No.
Page 1349
1 Q. And was a plan made or an arrangement made for the time that you
2 would leave Koritnik the next morning?
3 A. Could you repeat that, please?
4 Q. Did you and your mother agree that you should leave at a
5 particular time the next morning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what time was that?
8 A. 7.00 in the morning.
9 Q. Did you gather to leave at 7.00 in the morning the next day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And where did you gather?
12 A. In front of the shop in Koritnik.
13 Q. Were there other people there aside from yourself and your mother?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Without telling us their names, can you approximate the number of
16 people that had gathered at that point in time?
17 A. Well, about 50.
18 Q. And would it be fair to say that most of these people were related
19 to you in some way or another?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Aside from these Muslim people, was there anybody else present at
22 that time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And who was that?
25 A. Dusan Gavrilovic.
Page 1350
1 Q. And what is his ethnicity?
2 A. A Serb.
3 Q. And can you describe for us how he was dressed?
4 A. He didn't have a uniform on, but he was armed.
5 Q. And what was he armed with?
6 A. An automatic weapon.
7 Q. Did he say anything to you and other people in the group?
8 A. Allegedly the buses were supposed to transfer us to Visegrad.
9 Q. Were there any buses in Koritnik that morning?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did this person you've described as Dusan, did he say anything
12 regarding how you would get to Visegrad?
13 A. The buses were to come and get us, but as they didn't arrive, we
14 had to go on foot.
15 Q. And approximately what time would you estimate you departed from
16 Koritnik that morning?
17 A. About half past 7.00.
18 Q. This person Dusan, did he go with you?
19 A. Yes, to the village of Greben.
20 Q. Is Greben the next village on the way to Visegrad from Koritnik?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And can you tell us how far away is Greben from Koritnik?
23 A. About 15 minutes on foot.
24 Q. Now, this person Dusan, where exactly, where precisely did he walk
25 in relation to the group of people that left Koritnik?
Page 1351
1 A. He was in front of us.
2 Q. And you said that 50 or 60 people -- 50 to 60 people gathered at
3 7.00 in the morning. Did that entire group leave for Visegrad?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was there a dog also in the group?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did that dog belong to one of the people who was travelling
8 down to Visegrad?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, did you in fact arrive in the village of Greben that morning?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And can you describe for the Chamber what occurred after you
13 arrived in the village of Greben.
14 A. When we got down there, we still waited for the buses, but as they
15 didn't show any signs of turning up, we left. A Golf car came by once.
16 And there were two policemen there. They were wearing uniforms, and they
17 swore at us and said, "Fuck your mothers. We'll drown you in the Drina."
18 Q. Did they remain in Greben, the two policemen? Did they remain
19 there?
20 A. No. They went further on towards Prelovo village.
21 Q. Was that up in the direction from which you had just come?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you see this person you've referred to as Dusan go anywhere
24 when you arrived in Greben?
25 A. Dusan went to Lipovac, Milorad.
Page 1352
1 Q. Is that the name of a person: Lipovac, Milorad?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you know this person from before this day?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When this group from Koritnik stopped in Greben, would it be fair
6 to say that they were in the centre of the village?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And were you able to see the house of Lipovac, Milorad at this
9 time?
10 A. Yes. His house is right by the road.
11 Q. And Dusan, did he enter that house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did there come a time when you saw somebody leave that house?
14 A. Lipovac -- Milorad Lipovac went out.
15 Q. And approximately how much time transpired between the time you
16 saw Dusan go in and Lipovac Milorad come out?
17 A. Perhaps three minutes. It was just in passing, because we were
18 going down to Greben, towards the main road towards Visegrad.
19 Q. What did Milorad Lipovac do after he left the house?
20 A. He took us over and took us off in the direction of Visegrad.
21 Q. Did he say anything to you and other members of the group before
22 he left for Visegrad?
23 A. He just said, "The buses are due to arrive, but since they didn't
24 arrive, we have to walk."
25 Q. Did he say what would happen to you when you arrived in Visegrad?
Page 1353
1 A. Allegedly that we would be transported to Zenica.
2 Q. Approximately how long did you remain in Greben in total?
3 A. Just about half an hour.
4 Q. After you left Greben, what would be the next village that the
5 group headed towards?
6 A. Sase.
7 Q. And did you arrive at Sase?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you approximate for us how long it took to get from Greben to
10 Sase?
11 A. Whereas there was some elderly women and women with children,
12 about an hour.
13 Q. Did there come a time when the group arrived at the intersection
14 of the road you were travelling on and the road that goes up to the Vilina
15 Vlas Hotel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'd ask you to describe to the Chamber what you observed at that
18 intersection.
19 A. There was a sort of checkpoint there. There were five people in
20 camouflage uniforms, and they were armed with automatic weapons.
21 Q. And what, if anything, happened at that checkpoint?
22 A. No, nothing happened there.
23 Q. On the road between Greben and Sase, did you pass by houses
24 belonging to Serb people on the road?
25 A. Yes, we did. Along the road, there was a lot of swearing from the
Page 1354
1 Serbs.
2 Q. On the road between Greben and Sase, did you see a bus travelling
3 on that road?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was the bus travelling to Visegrad or from Visegrad?
6 A. To Visegrad, but the bus was transporting Muslims from the
7 neighbouring village of Vlahovici.
8 Q. And was the bus full?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many buses did you see that morning?
11 A. Three buses passed by.
12 Q. Were you able to tell who was in the other buses?
13 A. People from the village of Vlahovici as well.
14 Q. Now, what would be the next village going from Vlahovici to
15 Visegrad?
16 A. Kosovo Polje.
17 Q. And before you left for the village of Kosovo Polje, did any
18 people from the village of Sase join this group?
19 A. Yes, they did.
20 Q. Approximately how many?
21 A. About 10, 10 to 13.
22 Q. Were you able to learn what their intention was in going to
23 Visegrad that morning?
24 A. Well, I learned that they were allegedly going to transport us to
25 Zenica because we weren't safe in those villages. That's what was
Page 1355
1 allegedly said.
2 Q. Approximately how long did it take you to reach Kosovo Polje?
3 A. Not longer than 25 minutes.
4 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that, in Kosovo Polje, the population
5 is made up of both Muslim families and Serb families?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do the Muslim families in Kosovo Polje live in a particular
8 area of Kosovo Polje?
9 A. Could you repeat that, please?
10 Q. The Muslim families living in Kosovo Polje, did they at that time
11 live in a particular area of Kosovo Polje?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you describe, in relation to the road that you were
14 travelling on, where those Muslim families lived.
15 A. Moving from Koritnik to Visegrad, the Muslims lived on the
16 right-hand side and the Serbs lived on the left.
17 Q. Where is the Drina at this point; which side of the road?
18 A. Below the road, that is to say, on the right-hand side.
19 Q. I just want to ask you a few questions to help orient us regarding
20 this trip. Would it be fair to say that -- or let me ask you this:
21 Koritnik is on which bank of the Drina; the western bank or the eastern
22 bank?
23 A. Eastern.
24 Q. And is that commonly referred to as "the right bank" by people
25 living in Visegrad?
Page 1356
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, travelling from Koritnik to the town centre of Visegrad,
3 would it be necessary to cross the Drina?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So that they are on the same side of the Drina; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, near the centre of Visegrad, is there another river that
8 joins up with the Drina River?
9 A. Yes, the River Rzav.
10 Q. And from which direction does the River Rzav come from?
11 A. From the direction of --
12 Q. Let me ask the question in another way. Travelling from Koritnik
13 to the centre of Visegrad, would the group have had to have crossed the
14 Rzav River?
15 A. Yes. It flows from the direction of Dobrun. That's the direction
16 of the Rzav River.
17 Q. And did the group cross the Rzav River that day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Approximately how much time did it take for this group to travel
20 from Kosovo Polje to this point where you're about to cross the Rzav
21 River?
22 A. About half an hour.
23 Q. And is there a bridge crossing the Rzav River at that place?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe for us where that bridge is in relation to the
Page 1357
1 police station in Visegrad?
2 A. Going from the Pionirska valley to Visegrad, across the river,
3 right by the Rzav bridge, on the left-hand side, is where the police
4 station, or rather, the MUP.
5 Q. And are you able to estimate what time it was when you arrived at
6 the Rzav bridge?
7 A. About half past 12.00.
8 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what you observed at that
9 location at that time.
10 A. When we crossed the bridge, there was a group of armed people by
11 the MUP and there was a car there. I wasn't able to identify it. On the
12 car, there was a machine-gun while we were crossing the Rzav bridge.
13 Q. Approximately how many people were in this group?
14 A. About five or six people.
15 Q. And was this group of people within eyesight of the MUP station?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And were you able to see where this machine-gun was being pointed?
18 A. At us as we were crossing the bridge.
19 Q. And did any of these men say anything to the group as the group
20 crossed the bridge?
21 A. They just cursed us.
22 Q. Were any threats made?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know where Milorad Lipovac is at this time?
25 A. He was in front of us, ahead of us.
Page 1358
1 Q. Now, from the point in time where you first see him in Greben
2 until this point in time now, has he been with the group the entire time?
3 A. Yes, but some ten metres ahead of us.
4 Q. After you crossed the bridge, where did you and this group go?
5 A. We went towards the old bridge.
6 Q. And approximately how long does it take or did it take to travel
7 from the Rzav bridge to the old bridge?
8 A. Not more than 20 minutes.
9 Q. And was Milorad Lipovac with you as you travelled to the old
10 bridge?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you describe for us where is the old bridge in relation to a
13 hotel which is commonly called the new hotel?
14 A. To the left.
15 Q. And approximately how far away is it from -- how far away is the
16 hotel from the bridge?
17 A. I'm not able to tell that. I don't know.
18 Q. Can you see the bridge from the front of the hotel?
19 A. I'm not very familiar with this new hotel. I've heard of it, but
20 I'm not able to explain to you.
21 Q. The dog that you mentioned, was the dog still with the group at
22 this point in time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did something happen to the dog when you arrived in this area?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1359
1 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the dog?
2 A. Jovo Rajak was there. He's from Lijeska. And he was wearing an
3 automatic weapon and he said, "Take this dog away. He's going to bite
4 someone." And then he fired five bullets into him, into it.
5 Q. And did they kill the dog, or did this person kill the dog?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was done with the dog after it had been shot?
8 A. Alija Kurspahic took it away, together with Munira Kurspahic, and
9 they threw it from the old bridge into the Drina.
10 Q. When you arrived at this location, did you see Milorad Lipovac
11 speaking with anybody?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And who did you see him speaking with?
14 A. With Mitar Vasiljevic.
15 Q. And for approximately how long did they speak?
16 A. Not more than ten minutes.
17 Q. Can you describe for the Court how it is you know that the person
18 you're referring to now is Mitar Vasiljevic.
19 A. He used to work in Panos in the new hotel, and sometimes he would
20 be in the Vilina Vlas Hotel.
21 Q. Did you have any relatives that also knew him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And without telling us the name of any relatives, can you tell us
24 what their relationship was with Mitar Vasiljevic?
25 A. They were on very good terms.
Page 1360
1 Q. Did you have a relative that also worked in one of the places that
2 Mitar Vasiljevic worked?
3 A. Yes. He was an intern there, a trainee.
4 Q. Did there come a time when you were shown a group of photographs
5 of 12 different people and asked whether or not you could recognise
6 anybody?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And did you recognise anybody in that group of photographs?
9 A. I recognised Mitar Vasiljevic.
10 Q. And did you do anything on that group of photographs to mark or
11 indicate that you recognised Mitar Vasiljevic?
12 A. Yes; I signed it.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would ask to go into
14 private session for the purposes of showing an exhibit which bears the
15 name of the witness.
16 JUDGE HUNT: But where is it going to reveal it? It doesn't have
17 to be shown on the ELMO, does it?
18 MR. GROOME: No, it doesn't, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then let's get on with it without worrying
20 about it.
21 MR. GROOME: I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution
22 Exhibit 20.38.
23 Q. Witness 38, Prosecution Document Number 20.38 has been placed in
24 front of you. Do you recognise what this document is?
25 A. Yes, I do.
Page 1361
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1362
1 Q. And what is it?
2 A. These are photographs of criminals.
3 Q. And is this the group of photographs that you were shown in
4 connection with this case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said that earlier -- that you indicated one of these
7 photographs to be that of Mitar Vasiljevic. Can you tell us the number of
8 which photograph you identified as such?
9 A. Number 3.
10 Q. And does this document contain your photograph? I mean - sorry -
11 your signature?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I would tender Prosecution
14 Document Number 20.38 into evidence.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
16 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P20, VG038, and it
18 will be under seal.
19 Mr. Groome, are you going to try to pin down the appearance of
20 Mr. Vasiljevic more than we have at the moment?
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: We started back at 12.00, and there was 20 minutes
23 for something and then something else happened. But at the moment, this
24 is left completely up in the air.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour, I'll do that now. Before I do it,
Page 1363
1 Your Honour, I just have a couple of questions to ask the witness.
2 Q. Would you recognise Mr. Vasiljevic if you saw him again?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I'd ask you to look around the courtroom today and tell us, do you
5 recognise anybody in this courtroom?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And who do you recognise?
8 A. Mitar Vasiljevic.
9 Q. And can you describe where the person you're identifying now is
10 sitting and describe what he is wearing.
11 A. He's wearing a brown blazer, and he's sitting at the back; on the
12 left side, that is.
13 MR. GROOME: Let the record reflect --
14 JUDGE HUNT: We've agreed that he has identified the accused.
15 "The record reflecting" is a term which means all sorts of things, but it
16 doesn't really mean that. But I know that it's an American phrase that we
17 hear so often here.
18 MR. GROOME:
19 Q. Now, I want to take you back to this initial viewing of Mitar
20 Vasiljevic. Approximately how far away were you from Mitar Vasiljevic at
21 this particular point in time?
22 A. Not more than five metres.
23 Q. And are you able to tell us what you remember about what he was
24 wearing?
25 A. He was wearing a large black hat on his head and a black uniform.
Page 1364
1 Q. And do you recall whether or not he was armed?
2 A. No. I mean he didn't have a weapon.
3 Q. Did he say anything to you and other members of the group?
4 A. He said that there were no buses that day, that there would be
5 some "tomorrow," the next day.
6 Q. And did he say anything else?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Aside from the people from Koritnik and Sase, are there other
9 people present on the street at this time?
10 A. No, not Muslims.
11 Q. Were there Serbs in the area at the time?
12 A. There were Serbs, but not women and children; just soldiers.
13 Q. And were you able to tell whether those soldiers were members of
14 the Yugoslav People's Army or other types of soldiers?
15 A. Most of them were local Serbs.
16 Q. And can you describe for us how they were dressed?
17 A. The majority were wearing multicoloured uniforms, predominantly
18 green in colour.
19 Q. Similar to the camouflage uniforms you've referred to already in
20 your testimony?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And were these people armed?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did there come a time when you and other members of the group left
25 this area by the bridge?
Page 1365
1 A. Yes, we did.
2 Q. And approximately how long did you remain in this area before you
3 left?
4 A. Until half past 2.00.
5 Q. And how was it you came to leave this area?
6 A. We were led by Mitar Vasiljevic to Nova Mahala.
7 Q. Did he say anything before what you describe as leading you to
8 Nova Mahala?
9 A. Yes. He said, "There are no buses today. There will be some
10 tomorrow."
11 Q. Did you know where he was leading you before you left this area?
12 A. Well, we were familiar with the streets of the neighbourhood, but
13 we didn't know where he was taking us to.
14 Q. Can you describe for us the path that you took from this area by
15 the bridge to the place that you're describing as Nova Mahala?
16 A. Again, we went back via the Rzav bridge; that is, we passed by the
17 MUP and went towards Mahala.
18 Q. And is Pionirska Street in Mahala?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was Mitar Vasiljevic among the group of people that went up to
21 Pionirska Street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you recall where he was in relation to the group?
24 A. He was walking ahead of us.
25 Q. When you arrived at the Rzav River and crossed the bridge, did you
Page 1366
1 see the people you described earlier as having a machine-gun? Did you see
2 them at this time?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And can you tell us how long it took to travel from the area by
5 the bridge to the area known as Nova Mahala?
6 A. About 20 minutes.
7 Q. Now, can you describe to us what occurred once you arrived in the
8 area of Nova Mahala?
9 A. We entered the house of Jusuf Memic.
10 Q. And where was that house in relation to your school?
11 A. It's on the left side.
12 Q. Did all of the people enter the house of Jusuf Memic?
13 A. No. Some got into the house of his son.
14 Q. And where is that house in relation to the house of Jusuf Memic?
15 A. Right across.
16 Q. Across the street?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Are these two houses on the same side of the street?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And are they next to each other?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which house did your mother initially go into?
23 A. She got into his son's house, where I was.
24 Q. Did there come a -- I'm sorry. So the first house that you went
25 into is which house?
Page 1367
1 A. His son's house.
2 Q. And how long did you remain there?
3 A. For about an hour.
4 Q. Now, the group that came from Koritnik, did they all come up to
5 this area in Nova Mahala?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And where was Mitar Vasiljevic at the time that you arrived in
8 Nova Mahala?
9 A. He was in front of the house.
10 Q. And did he say anything that you could hear?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, after an hour of being in the son's house, where did you go?
13 A. We got into Jusuf Memic's house.
14 Q. And can you tell us approximately how many people originally went
15 into the son's house?
16 A. About ten.
17 Q. And did they all move out from that house?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us what happened when you moved to the house of Jusuf
20 Memic?
21 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
22 Q. Can you tell us what happened after you moved to the house of
23 Jusuf Memic?
24 A. Mitar Vasiljevic wrote something on a piece of paper. I
25 personally didn't read what was written on that piece of paper, but he
Page 1368
1 gave it to [redacted] and he kept this piece of paper which was
2 supposed to protect us, allegedly, so that nobody would harm us.
3 Q. And did you know [redacted] before this day?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us what village he was from?
6 A. Sase.
7 Q. Did [redacted] tell the group of people what was contained on
8 this paper?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you able -- you said that you couldn't read the paper. Were
11 you able to see the paper?
12 A. Yes, we could see the paper. We saw the paper.
13 Q. And were you able to tell whether it was an official document or
14 simply a piece of ordinary paper?
15 A. It was just a piece of ordinary paper.
16 Q. After this occurred, did Mr. Vasiljevic remain at the house?
17 A. No. He left. I don't know where.
18 Q. Now, can you describe the door -- where is the door on -- the
19 entrance door on Jusuf Memic's house? Which side of the house?
20 A. The door was on the upper part, because we were upstairs.
21 Q. And did that door face Pionirska Street?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And the door of the other house, did that door face Pionirska
24 Street?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1369
1 Q. And which house is this that you're referring to now: the house of
2 Jusuf Memic or the house of his son?
3 A. The house of his son. In that house, the door was facing the
4 street.
5 Q. And did you have to take stairs to get up to the entrance door of
6 that house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And approximately how many steps to the entrance door of that
9 house?
10 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell.
11 Q. That afternoon, did you see anybody pass by the house?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did the people in the house have a meal that day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And where did they get the food?
16 A. What they had taken from their homes.
17 Q. Was anybody cooking with a fire that you could see?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, after Mitar Vasiljevic left, did other people arrive at the
20 house of Jusuf Memic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did there come a time when other people entered the house, other
23 Serbs?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know a person by the name of "Milan Lukic"?
Page 1370
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did there come a time when he arrived at the house?
3 A. Well, they arrived at half past 4.00.
4 Q. Can you tell us, did you know Milan Lukic prior to this day?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How did you know his name on this day?
7 A. Probably because there were some people who had gone to school
8 with him, men and women who knew him very well.
9 Q. And were there other people that came to the house with him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you describe those people or tell us their names, if you know?
12 A. Milan Susnjar, also known as "Laco"; Milan Lukic; Sredoje Lukic;
13 and Mitar Vasiljevic.
14 Q. The person you're describing as Sredoje Lukic, did you know him
15 prior to this day?
16 A. I think he used to work as a police officer in Visegrad.
17 Q. And the person you're describing as Milan Susnjar, did you know
18 him prior to this day?
19 A. Probably by sight, but not before this day. But there were people
20 there who knew him.
21 Q. And did you learn his name from people that were there?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, before I proceed, this might be a good
24 place to break.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll adjourn now until 1.30 [sic].
Page 1371
1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry that I gave everybody a fright when I said,
4 "We'll adjourn until 1.30." I'm glad you all stayed away until 2.30.
5 Yes, Mr. Groome.
6 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 38. Before the break, you were describing
8 for us a period of time when Mr. Lukic, Sredoje Lukic, Mitar Vasiljevic
9 and Milan Susnjar came to the house of Jusuf Memic. I want you to orient
10 us regarding time. Are you able to estimate how much time elapsed between
11 the time that Mitar Vasiljevic left the house the first time and the time
12 that these men arrived at the house?
13 A. Well, about an hour.
14 Q. And between the time that he left the first time and then returned
15 with these men, did anybody else come to the house?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did anybody else pass the house, that you could see?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, could you describe for us how Mr. Vasiljevic was dressed at
20 this time?
21 A. He had a black hat and a black uniform.
22 Q. Was it the same as when you saw him earlier in the day?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And could you tell if he was armed?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1372
1 Q. And are you able to tell us what he was armed with?
2 A. An automatic.
3 Q. I'd ask you to describe each of the other men. Can you tell us
4 what they were wearing? We'll begin with Mr. Lukic, Milan Lukic.
5 A. He was wearing a multicoloured uniform.
6 Q. And what was the predominant colour of that uniform?
7 A. Green.
8 Q. Was that a camouflage-type uniform?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And could you tell if he was armed?
11 A. Yes. He also had an automatic weapon.
12 Q. Mr. Sredoje Lukic, could you please describe what he was wearing.
13 A. The same as Milan Lukic. He was armed with an automatic weapon.
14 Q. And finally, Mr. Milan Susnjar, can you describe what he was
15 wearing?
16 A. The same as Milan and Sredoje, and he had a bayonet.
17 Q. Is that the only weapon that he had with him?
18 A. Could you repeat that, please?
19 Q. You said he had a bayonet. Was this the only weapon he had or did
20 he have other weapons as well?
21 A. He had an automatic rifle as well.
22 Q. Now, aside from these four men, did you see any other people there
23 present at that time?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Can you describe for us what happened when these four men came to
Page 1373
1 the house of Jusuf Memic?
2 A. Mitar Vasiljevic and Milan Lukic were in front of the house, that
3 is to say, where the windows were. He was on one side and the other one
4 was on the other side. And Milan Susnjar and Sredoje were inside, and
5 they were searching for money and gold. If you didn't give it up, then
6 you would get a bullet in your forehead.
7 Q. Did one of the two men that was inside say something regarding
8 money and gold?
9 A. No. They just asked us for money and gold.
10 Q. Can you tell us, using as best you're able their words, what was
11 said to the people inside the house?
12 A. Milan Susnjar said, "Money and gold. If you don't give it up,
13 you'll get a bullet in your forehead."
14 Q. And the other person with him, Sredoje Lukic, I believe, did he
15 say anything?
16 A. No. He was standing in the middle of the house.
17 Q. Are you able to approximate for us what time of the day this is
18 occurring?
19 A. About 5.00.
20 Q. And did any of these four men have any covering on their face or
21 any disguise on their face?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can you describe for us what occurred after Mr. Susnjar demanded
24 this money from the people?
25 A. They searched us in the room next door. That is to say, they took
Page 1374
1 our clothes off. We were naked, men and women.
2 Q. This other room that you're referring to, can you tell us what the
3 room was used for?
4 A. Probably for sleeping in.
5 Q. And can you describe for us in greater detail how the people in
6 the house were searched? Were they all searched together or in groups or
7 individually?
8 A. Individually.
9 Q. And who was inside that room, doing the search?
10 A. Milan Susnjar.
11 Q. And where was the other person at this time?
12 A. He was in the neighbouring room.
13 Q. Now, you said earlier in your testimony that you saw Milan Lukic
14 and Mitar Vasiljevic at the front of the house; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how was it you were able to see them at the front of the
17 house?
18 A. Well, we could see them -- I could see them when they came, all
19 four of them, and then two of them went down outside in front of the house
20 and the other two were inside.
21 Q. And how were you able to see where they went outside the house?
22 A. Because I heard them talking. They said that we shouldn't throw
23 any jewellery or money out of the window.
24 Q. Approximately how long did it take for all of the people in the
25 house to be searched?
Page 1375
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1376
1 A. About two hours, I think, two and a half, perhaps.
2 Q. And during this entire two-hour period, is it Mr. Susnjar who is
3 doing the actual searching of people?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What happened after the last person was searched?
6 A. Then Milan Susnjar said, "We're going to drink now, have a
7 drink."
8 Q. Then what happened?
9 A. Then they left. We stayed on there in the house.
10 Q. Did there come a time when some of these men returned to the
11 house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you estimate for us the period of time between when they
14 left after the search and the next time some of these men appeared at the
15 house?
16 A. I know they came at about half past 10.00, because I had a watch
17 on my hand.
18 Q. Was that a watch that was not taken during the search?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And why was that?
21 A. Well, who had earrings in their ears and rings on their fingers,
22 they didn't take that; just if you had anything on you, any other things
23 on you.
24 Q. Was it dark out at this point?
25 A. You mean when they came at half past 10.00 or when they searched
Page 1377
1 us?
2 Q. Yes, when they came at half past 10.00.
3 A. Yes, it was dark.
4 Q. Can you describe for us what happened when some of these people
5 returned.
6 A. They said, "The Green Berets are shooting. You have to hide in
7 the cellar."
8 Q. Were you able to see who it was that returned at this time?
9 A. Yes; the same four men who had searched us.
10 Q. You've just described somebody as speaking. Did you see who or
11 hear who it was that spoke?
12 A. No, I didn't see anything, but I heard who was doing the talking.
13 Q. You heard who was doing the talking?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you able to identify who it was?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Can you give us the names of the people that returned at this
18 point in time?
19 A. Milan Susnjar, Mitar Vasiljevic, Sredoje Lukic, and Milan Lukic.
20 Q. Was there any source or sources of light that you could tell at
21 this point in time?
22 A. Yes, there was some light there, and in the house next door there
23 was no light.
24 Q. So was there light in the house of Jusuf Memic?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1378
1 Q. Were there lights in the house of his son?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did any of these men have a source of light with them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe it for us?
6 A. They had a flashlight.
7 Q. How many of them had a flashlight?
8 A. All four of them.
9 Q. What happened after the man made this statement regarding the
10 Green Berets; what happened after that?
11 A. After that, they took us into the next house, Adem Omeragic's
12 house, and they told us that we'd be safest in the cellar. And when we
13 started going out of the house of Jusuf Memic, they said, "Fuck you."
14 Q. When you say "they," are you able to be more specific about which
15 of these men said that?
16 A. No, I couldn't recognise that because it was night-time and we
17 didn't dare look at them that much. We were afraid.
18 Q. On the way to this other house, were you able to see any of these
19 men?
20 A. All four of them took up positions between one house and the next,
21 but I couldn't actually see where they were standing.
22 Q. Are you familiar with a creek in the area of Pionirska Street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you describe for us where the Omeragic house is with respect
25 to that creek?
Page 1379
1 A. The creek is behind the house.
2 Q. And did you enter the room of that house?
3 A. Which one do you mean? Adem Omeragic's?
4 Q. Adem Omeragic's house.
5 A. It was just one room, actually, as far as I was able to
6 understand. It was night-time.
7 Q. Approximately how far was the distance between the house of Jusuf
8 Memic and the house of Adem Omeragic?
9 A. About 150 metres.
10 Q. I'm going to ask you to describe for the Chamber what the inside
11 of that room looked like. What was its approximate size?
12 A. Perhaps eight by eight.
13 Q. That's metres?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were there windows in that room?
16 A. Yes. There were two windows.
17 Q. And in which direction did those windows face?
18 A. The lower side of the house.
19 Q. If one were to stand inside the house and look out the window,
20 what would one be looking at?
21 A. The creek flows below the house.
22 Q. Would that be true for both windows? Were both windows on the
23 same side of the house?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Aside from -- let me ask you this: Were there any stairs to the
Page 1380
1 upper floors of this house which you could tell from the room that you
2 were in?
3 A. No, I couldn't see that because it was dark.
4 Q. Aside from the two windows you've described and the door of this
5 house, was there any way that you could see to enter or leave the house?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The windows in the house, did they have glass in them?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And was there anything else, aside from the glass, on those
10 windows?
11 A. Yes. There was a net of some kind, some netting.
12 Q. Were you able to tell whether both windows had glass?
13 A. Yes, there was glass on both the windows.
14 Q. And were you able to tell whether both windows had this netting
15 that you're describing?
16 A. I couldn't see that because I jumped up to the second window from
17 the door.
18 Q. Can you describe this netting with a little greater detail for the
19 Court, perhaps by using an example of something similar to the netting
20 that covered the window?
21 A. The netting was -- oh, there were -- there were several nets from
22 peppers, paprikas.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes: Probably from the sacks.
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Was the netting similar to the net sacks that peppers are sold in
Page 1381
1 in Bosnia?
2 A. Yes, similar to that, that's right.
3 Q. What, if any, furniture was in the room?
4 A. As far as I know, there was just a table.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Does your expertise, Mr. Groome, extend to the size
6 of those nets that the paprikas are sold in in Bosnia?
7 MR. GROOME: Not mine, Your Honour, but I can certainly ask the
8 witness.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Are they like a tennis court net or something?
10 MR. GROOME: I'll ask a few more questions regarding that and
11 see.
12 Q. I want to ask a few more questions regarding the nets that you've
13 described here. Did the netting cover the entire window that you
14 described as being covered by it?
15 A. Yes, it covered the whole window.
16 Q. And can you approximate for us, what would be the open area in the
17 net? How large were the holes or the open spaces in the net?
18 A. Perhaps half a centimetre.
19 Q. Would those holes have been larger or smaller than the spaces that
20 we would see in a tennis net?
21 A. Smaller, smaller.
22 Q. Would the space of the net have been large enough to put your hand
23 through it?
24 A. No. Perhaps a mosquito could get by, but that's all.
25 JUDGE HUNT: The other question, I suppose, which will arise is:
Page 1382
1 What was it made of; plastic, or metal, or what?
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Were you able to tell what material this netting was made from?
4 A. It's plastic, mostly.
5 Q. Were you able to tell -- let me ask this question: Was the
6 netting on the inside of the glass or on the outside of the glass?
7 A. Outside.
8 Q. Aside from this table, was there any other furniture in the room,
9 that you could tell?
10 A. No, I couldn't tell because it was night, dark.
11 Q. Could you describe for us, where were you with respect to the
12 people that went into this -- well, let me ask you this: How many people
13 went into the room of this house? Can you estimate that for us?
14 A. About 75 to 80.
15 Q. And where were you in that group; one of the first, one of the
16 last, or in the middle?
17 A. I was in the middle, by the table.
18 Q. Were people standing in the room or was there anywhere to sit in
19 the room?
20 A. Some people were standing, others were sitting, but there wasn't
21 enough room.
22 Q. Can you tell us what you observed when you went into the room?
23 Were any of the four men you've described inside the room when you went
24 into the room?
25 A. No, nobody was there.
Page 1383
1 Q. What did you do after you entered the room?
2 A. I went to sleep. I put my arm on the table and went to sleep.
3 And suddenly I heard a scream and cries, and I heard someone say, "They
4 are going to set light to us."
5 Q. Were you able to tell who said that?
6 A. I couldn't say. I don't know who said that, but I just heard
7 someone say it. It was a woman, a female voice.
8 Q. Could you tell where in the room this person was?
9 A. By the door.
10 Q. Do you know how long you were asleep?
11 A. I couldn't say.
12 Q. Can you tell us what happened after you heard the screams?
13 A. I moved to the window, and I saw a woman breaking the window. It
14 was VG18.
15 Q. What happened then?
16 A. I rushed to the window. She had managed to break part of the
17 glass or part of the window, the one window pane, and I broke the other.
18 And VG18 then got the netting down, and I tried to jump out. When I tried
19 to jump out, the part by the door was in flames so that I was able to
20 recognise Milan Susnjar standing there, standing next to the other window
21 and door, and then he went off towards the next-door window. I came back
22 into the house.
23 Q. What happened then?
24 A. Then he threw a bomb in the next-door window by the door. The
25 bomb exploded, and I jumped out.
Page 1384
1 Q. Before you jumped out, did you see or smell smoke in that room?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At what point in time did you first realise that there was smoke
4 in the room?
5 A. When I wanted to try and jump out, it was suffocating.
6 Q. Can you describe that smoke for us? Is there anything unusual
7 about it?
8 A. It was some sort of mat. I don't know what.
9 Q. You said it was some sort of mat. Can you describe what you mean
10 by that, please?
11 A. Mata [phoen].
12 Q. Can you describe for us again the smoke and what you believe it
13 came from?
14 A. Well, it was some sort of mixture like paint, or dye, or something
15 like that. It smelt like that. It was a blend of this.
16 Q. Did there come a time that you noticed a flame in that room?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us when it was you first remember seeing flames in
19 that room?
20 A. When I moved towards the window.
21 Q. And can you tell us where in the room you saw flames?
22 A. At the entrance door.
23 Q. What were the other people in the room doing at this time?
24 A. They were screaming, crying.
25 Q. At the time you first saw flames, is this before or after Milan
Page 1385
1 Susnjar threw what you described as a bomb in one of the windows?
2 A. Yes, I saw him at the time the fire broke out on the first window
3 and I was about to jump, jump out, and the area -- one part of the area in
4 front of the house was lit.
5 Q. What was it lit from?
6 A. It had already been on fire before he threw it in.
7 Q. The window that you jumped out of, was it the window closest to
8 the door or furthest from the door?
9 A. Furthest from the door.
10 Q. Can you describe for us what happened as you jumped out?
11 A. I hid in the bushes not far from the house, maybe 20, 25 metres
12 away from it, and I was watching the house and fire.
13 Q. Where was your mother at the time that you first saw the flames
14 break out inside the room?
15 A. I didn't know anything about what was going on with her at the
16 time I jumped out.
17 Q. Where was she the last time you saw her?
18 A. We were together in the house, that is, in the house that was on
19 fire. And then I never saw her again up until 1995.
20 Q. And when was it -- the last time you saw her in that house? At
21 what point in time did you last see her?
22 A. I can't say exactly when that was because I was trying to get out.
23 Q. You spoke earlier about going to the window the first time and
24 then coming back in. Was it before or after that event?
25 A. Before.
Page 1386
1 Q. Do you recall her saying anything to you at the time that this
2 person screamed that, "They are burning us," or, "They are going to burn
3 us"? Did your mother say anything to you?
4 A. No, she didn't.
5 Q. Did you say anything to her?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, can you be more precise -- I'll withdraw that. When you
8 jumped outside the window of the house, was the house in flames at that
9 point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did the light from those flames illuminate the area around the
12 house?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were you able to see anybody outside the house at that time?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And where did you go immediately after you jumped out of the
17 window of the house?
18 A. I went behind the house. I was in a bush there, and it was from
19 there that I watched the house burn and could hear people cry. There was
20 shooting from automatic weapons as well.
21 Q. Can you describe where you were in relation to the creek that runs
22 behind the house.
23 A. I crossed over. I crossed the creek. There was a little bridge
24 there that I crossed.
25 Q. And would you describe what the ground was like on the far side of
Page 1387
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1388
1 the creek; whether it was flat, whether there was a hill?
2 A. There were some hills and houses around that area. It was a
3 populated area where both Serbs and Muslims lived, Croats as well.
4 Q. And you've described yourself as watching this fire.
5 Approximately how far from the rear of this house are you at the point
6 that you're watching this fire?
7 A. Twenty-five, maybe thirty metres away.
8 Q. Would you describe for us what you observed or -- sorry.
9 Approximately how long did you stay there in that bush and watch the fire?
10 A. For about half an hour.
11 Q. And can you describe for us what you saw during that half an hour?
12 A. I listened to their screams. I could hear people cry, including
13 women and children, and I could see the house in flames.
14 Q. During the time that you're watching this fire, did you think that
15 your mother was still in the house?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you think that your mother burned to death in that house that
18 night?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When was it that you found out that your mother had escaped the
21 house that night?
22 A. [redacted].
23 Q. So between 1992 and 1995, you believed that your mother had died
24 on the 14th of June?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1389
1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time I'm going to ask that the
2 witness be shown a black and white copy of Exhibit 17.1, and I would ask
3 that it be introduced as Prosecution Exhibit Number 17.1.38 to indicate
4 that this witness will be making some marks on it.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Let's wait until he's marked it.
6 MR. GROOME: Okay.
7 Q. Witness 38, I'm going to ask you to take the blue pen in front of
8 you.
9 MR. GROOME: We'll leave it on the desk and have the witness make
10 the marks there.
11 Q. If you'll take the blue pen, I would ask you to put "VG38" at the
12 bottom of that piece of paper to indicate that it's you that's making
13 these marks.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. I'd ask you to trace, with the blue marker, the path that the
16 group from Koritnik took on its way from Koritnik down to the place by the
17 bridge that you indicated.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Has there been any dispute about this with any
19 witness so far?
20 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. I'm going to ask him to mark one of
21 the events that happened on that path. Does Your Honour wish us to move
22 on?
23 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure. Is there a dispute about this
24 particular event that you want him to show? It's not something you have
25 to do with every witness. There's been no dispute, so far as I have
Page 1390
1 ascertained, to the description of how they arrived in Visegrad.
2 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: We don't really need to repeat that with every
4 witness. That's the point about getting on with the case. If there is an
5 event that there is no evidence about or you want to add to something, by
6 all means, let's go straight to it.
7 MR. GROOME:
8 Q. Witness 38, I'd ask you to put "MV1" and a circle to indicate
9 where it was you saw Mitar Vasiljevic the first time that day.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. I'd ask you -- I'll have you make a few marks before we put it on
12 the ELMO. I'd ask you to indicate where it was that this machine-gun was
13 mounted on the car as you crossed the bridge.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now I'd ask you to take the red pen, and would you trace the route
16 that you describe Mitar Vasiljevic as having led the group of people into
17 the area known as "Nova Mahala."
18 A. [Marks]
19 MR. GROOME: At this time, I would ask that the usher place the
20 exhibit on the ELMO. Your Honour, at this time I would tender 17.1 into
21 evidence as 17.1.38.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
23 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. It will be Exhibit P17-1-VG38.
25 MR. GROOME: Now I'd ask the witness be shown a black and white
Page 1391
1 copy of Prosecution Number 17.3. I'd ask it be placed on the desk.
2 Q. I'd ask you to take the red pen and put "VG38" to indicate that
3 you're the person drawing on this photograph.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. I'd ask you to put a number "1" on the roof of the house that
6 you're describing as Jusuf Memic's.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And I'd ask you to put an arrow to show us where the door is on
9 that house.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. I'd ask you to put a "2" on the roof of the house that belongs to
12 his son.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. And an arrow to indicate where the door on that house is.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And I'd ask you to put a "3" on the house that was ultimately set
17 on fire.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And I'd ask you to put an arrow to indicate where the door is on
20 that house.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. I'd ask you now to put an "MV2" to indicate where is the first
23 place that you saw Mr. Vasiljevic up in this area on this day.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. I'd ask you now to put "MV3" to indicate where Mr. Vasiljevic was
Page 1392
1 the next time you saw him up in the Pionirska Street area.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. And finally, I'd ask you to show us or trace in red the path that
4 you took into the house from House Number 1 to House Number 3.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that that now be placed on the ELMO. Your
7 Honour, at this time I would tender 17.3 as 17.3.38 into evidence.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know why you do this for us if we can't see
9 it. The other one didn't seem to have very much interest to it, but this
10 one is important. I can see "1," I think I can see a "3." Perhaps we
11 could use a pointer and then we'll see where this witness has made these
12 marks.
13 MR. GROOME:
14 Q. I would ask the witness take the pointer. I would ask you to
15 point to House Number 1.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 Q. Now point to the house that you've marked as House Number 2.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. And House Number 3.
20 A. [Indicates]
21 Q. Where is the door on House Number 1?
22 A. In the area above.
23 Q. And where is the door on House Number 2?
24 A. Here, from the entrance from the street.
25 Q. Now, can you point to where you've made the mark "MV2."
Page 1393
1 A. In front of the door of the house of Jusuf Memic.
2 Q. And where did you make the mark "MV3"?
3 A. No, I didn't. I didn't mark it.
4 MR. GROOME: Okay. I would ask the document be placed on the desk
5 again.
6 Q. Do you need to make a correction to what you've done?
7 A. No, everything is okay. It is that "MV3" -- you told me about MV1
8 and MV2.
9 Q. Point to -- where is the first place you saw Mitar Vasiljevic in
10 this area of Visegrad on this day? Can you point to where that is?
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. And what number did you put in that, "MV" what? Without leaning
13 over.
14 A. "MV2."
15 Q. Can you point once again to the first place you saw Mitar
16 Vasiljevic that day.
17 A. [Indicates]
18 Q. And what have you written in there to indicate that?
19 A. "MV1."
20 Q. Where is the second place that you saw Mitar Vasiljevic that day?
21 Can you point to that for us?
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. And what have you written there to indicate that?
24 A. "MV2."
25 Q. Now I'd ask you just to trace very slowly the path that you took
Page 1394
1 from the house marked number "1" to the house marked number "3."
2 A. [Indicates]
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you. Your Honour, at this time, I would
4 re-tender that exhibit.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
6 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Exhibit P17-3-VG38.
8 MR. GROOME: I'd now ask that Prosecution Number 17.7 be placed on
9 the desk in front of the witness.
10 Q. VG38, I would ask you once again to write "VG38" at the bottom of
11 that document.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And I'd ask you to circle the window that you testified you jumped
14 out of.
15 A. [Marks]
16 MR. GROOME: And I'd ask that that be placed on the ELMO. Your
17 Honour, at this time I would tender that into evidence as Prosecution
18 17.7.VG38.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
20 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P17-7-VG38.
22 MR. GROOME: And finally I would ask that the Prosecution
23 Document Number 17.14.VG38 be placed before the witness.
24 Q. And once again, I would ask the witness to write "VG38" at the
25 bottom of that photograph.
Page 1395
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. The place that you hid in the bush and watched the fire, is that
3 on this photograph or can you find it on this photograph?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'd ask you to put a circle and put "VG38" inside that circle to
6 indicate for us where it was you hid and watched the fire from.
7 A. [Marks]
8 MR. GROOME: And I would now ask that that be placed on the ELMO.
9 Q. I would ask you to take the pointer and indicate for us where you
10 have made the mark.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. And I would ask you now to point to the house that was set on
13 fire.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 MR. GROOME: Thank you. Your Honour, I would like to tender that
16 into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 17.14.VG38.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Domazet?
18 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P17-14-VG38.
20 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions. Thank you, VG38.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Domazet.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Domazet:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. VG38, at the relevant times, you said you were
24 about [redacted]; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1396
1 Q. You attended the primary school in [redacted]?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Only that particular year or had you attended that school even
4 before?
5 A. From the [redacted]
6 [redacted].
7 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, when you are dealing with questions coming from
8 your left, from Mr. Domazet there, you are both speaking the same
9 language. Both the questions and the answers have to be interpreted into
10 English and into French. The interpreters have a great deal of difficulty
11 if you don't pause before you start your answer because they are still
12 interpreting the question. So just wait a few seconds before you answer
13 the question, just as Mr. Domazet will be waiting an appreciable time
14 before he starts the question. Do you understand that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
16 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
17 Q. So that year, you were in the [redacted]?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In your school or in your class, were there both Muslim and Serb
20 students or was only one community represented?
21 A. There were both Muslims and Serbs.
22 Q. During that particular school year in 1992, was the situation any
23 different from previous years or was it the case that some of your
24 colleagues had already left the school? Do you remember that?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1397
1 Q. Do you remember the reason why? And who was it that left; Serbs,
2 or Muslims, or both?
3 A. Muslims were the first ones to leave, and later on, I don't know
4 about the Serbs.
5 Q. [No interpretation]
6 A. Some 15 days before the Uzice Corps entered Visegrad.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. We never got an interpretation of
8 your question. If you tell us what your question was, it will help us to
9 understand the answer.
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] "When did this happen? When did the
11 majority of students leave school?" That was my question.
12 Q. Did you, sir, leave school then too?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And from that time on, you were in your village, Koritnik; is that
15 right or not?
16 A. Yes, I was in the village.
17 Q. When you talked about leaving the village -- actually, prior to
18 leaving the village, asked by Mr. Groome what happened on the 13th of
19 June, you said that some Serbs came to the village and that this was a
20 question that was discussed. How do you know that it was the 13th of
21 June?
22 A. Well, I won't forget the 13th and 14th for as long as I live.
23 Q. Yes, I can well believe that. I know you have every reason to
24 remember those dates. But I'm asking you: How come you remembered that
25 it was the 13th the day before and the 14th the day after, and the time
Page 1398
1 you left?
2 A. Can you repeat that, please? I don't follow.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, it might be simpler if you look at it
4 from this point of view: Even if he was told later what the date was, it
5 doesn't matter, does it? Is the point you're trying to ask him: Was it
6 only the day before that he left, the day before the fire?
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you approach it from that point of
9 view, because the question is confusing, if I may say so.
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
11 Q. I'm asking, because in the statement you gave to the
12 investigator -- and you were interviewed by the investigators of this
13 Tribunal; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. In that statement, you say up until the 14th of June, you were
16 hiding in the village, and that a day later you moved to Visegrad, which
17 is a little different from what you said today. And that's why I asked
18 you what the date was or whether you were able to remember the date on the
19 basis of something or, as Judge Hunt said, somebody perhaps told you that
20 date later on?
21 A. No, sir. The date, the 13th, was when we left the village, and
22 the 14th -- that is to say, we were in the village on the 13th, and on the
23 14th we were set fire to.
24 Q. And you're sure that was the 14th?
25 A. Sure.
Page 1399
1 Q. Do you perhaps remember what day of the week that 14th was?
2 A. It was Monday.
3 Q. When you spoke about what went on before that at the stadium, that
4 was quite a bit before that date, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes. It was in April. Whether it was the 16th or not, 15th or
6 16th, I don't remember.
7 Q. Was it an occasion when a large number of inhabitants were
8 gathered together, they had come from all parts, and some of the JNA -- a
9 JNA officer held a speech, addressed them, and said that they should all
10 return to Visegrad; do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, I remember Jovanovic making a speech, saying that all Muslims
12 should return to Visegrad because, as he put it, allegedly they could live
13 safely there. But when they went back, that was the worst time in
14 Visegrad, the worst killings.
15 Q. When you say "the worst killings in Visegrad," are you referring
16 to the period when the JNA was in Visegrad or after the JNA had left
17 Visegrad?
18 A. No, after the Uzice Corps had left, and this was -- the
19 perpetrators were the local Serbs.
20 Q. Do you remember what happened after that meeting/rally at the
21 stadium? You said today that at the Drina Hotel at the stadium itself,
22 that you went there. Is that a hotel or is it something else?
23 A. It's a hotel.
24 Q. You said today that you stayed in that hotel for 15 days?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1400
1 Q. You told the investigator of the OTP that on the following day,
2 the day after, that is, that you were taken, accompanied by the Uzice
3 Corps soldiers, to the village?
4 A. No, that's not true.
5 Q. It says so in your statement. But you claim that that's not
6 correct?
7 A. No, sir. Some returned, others stayed.
8 Q. The ones that stayed at the stadium - and you were among them -
9 did they stay of their own free will or were they kept there by the JNA,
10 the army?
11 A. No, sir. They were not safe where they lived in the surrounding
12 villages around Visegrad, and that's why they didn't dare go back.
13 Q. Yes. So that's why they stayed of their own free will. Nobody
14 was compelled to stay, was forced to stay?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you spoke about your journey from the village to Visegrad,
17 you mentioned that three buses -- as many as three buses passed by you,
18 and you identified the people as being the inhabitants from Vlahovici
19 village. How do you know they were from Vlahovici village?
20 A. As far as I was able to understand, the buses didn't stop at all.
21 Yes, a woman got on - she was almost 90 - and she went off with these
22 other people. She was from the village of Vlahovici, and she's still
23 alive.
24 Q. So a bus stopped for this woman to get on, and that's when you
25 learnt that the people were from Vlahovici; is that right? Have I
Page 1401
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 1402
1 understood you correctly?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. In Sase, you were joined, as you said, by about 10 to 13 people?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. You said that you knew one of these individuals. Did you know the
6 others and, if so, how long had you known them for and how did you come to
7 know them?
8 A. I knew one person, and I knew another person, too, because it was
9 a relative of mine. We were related.
10 Q. You reached Visegrad sometime after 12.00, you say that it was
11 about 12.30 or thereabouts, and you came to in front of the hotel. You
12 said that Milorad Lipovac came to the hotel with you and that he stepped
13 aside to talk to Mitar Vasiljevic for about ten minutes; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was that straight after you arrived at the hotel? Was Lipovac the
16 first person to approach that man, the one you identified as being Mitar
17 Vasiljevic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you able to hear their conversation? Did you hear what they
20 were talking about?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did Lipovac leave after that? Did you see him at all after his
23 coming to in front of the hotel?
24 A. No, I didn't see him.
25 Q. Did Lipovac say anything, tell you anything before he left?
Page 1403
1 A. No, he didn't.
2 Q. When you described the person you say you identified as Mitar
3 Vasiljevic, you said that he had a black hat and a black uniform on.
4 That's what you said today.
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. What do you mean by "a black uniform"? Because I myself don't
7 know that uniforms like that existed, if you're referring to a military
8 uniform.
9 A. It was a military uniform, but I don't know what it actually
10 represented.
11 Q. So you think it was a military uniform and the colour was black?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you happen to remember what he had on his feet?
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. What about the other people who were there, the Serb policemen, if
16 they were there? Did they say where you ought to go and was Bikavac
17 mentioned as a possible location?
18 A. No, Bikavac wasn't mentioned; just Nova Mahala, the New Mahala.
19 Q. When you say "Nova Mahala," can you explain to the Court what you
20 mean? Which part of Visegrad was that?
21 A. It's a settlement called Mahala and it's actually Pionirska
22 Street.
23 Q. Isn't the Mahala settlement a settlement below Pionirska Street?
24 The part up until the beginning of Pionirska Street, isn't that what they
25 call Mahala?
Page 1404
1 A. Could you repeat that, please?
2 Q. Isn't Mahala part of Visegrad which is below Pionirska Street,
3 where Pionirska Street begins, next to the Cadjava cafe, that part of
4 Visegrad, and not the upper part, which is Pionirska street?
5 A. I couldn't really answer that.
6 Q. Asked by Mr. Groome about the new hotel and the distance from the
7 old bridge, I think you said that you couldn't determine that distance
8 because you were much younger then and didn't know. I think you said
9 something like that. Does that mean that you didn't go into that part of
10 town often for you to be able to tell us now the details of that?
11 A. I think it's by the bridge, that the hotel is by the bridge. And
12 I went around Visegrad enough, because I went to school there, so I knew
13 it sufficiently well. I didn't actually know the streets and their names
14 very well, but I knew the town.
15 Q. Is there anything that lies between the bridge and the hotel?
16 A. Yes. There's a garden.
17 Q. Is there anything opposite the gardens?
18 A. There's a monument to a writer, Ivo Andric.
19 Q. Did it exist -- did the monument exist while you were there?
20 A. Yes. Well, I don't actually know whether it did or didn't.
21 Q. When you went towards the Mahala or Pionirska Street, we have
22 established the direction you took. You said today that Mitar Vasiljevic
23 accompanied the column; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right. Mitar Vasiljevic did go with us.
25 Q. Did anybody else accompany the column, of the people who were not
Page 1405
1 of the column, who were not from Visegrad and Sase?
2 A. No. There was just Mitar Vasiljevic.
3 Q. So only he accompanied you and went from the hotel to the Memic
4 house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you reached Memic's house, you said that Mitar Vasiljevic
7 wrote something down on an ordinary piece of paper which you couldn't see
8 or read. Did you happen to see the writing itself or did you just hear
9 about the existence of a piece of paper?
10 A. I saw him when he was writing it down, but I didn't know what he
11 was writing down. And he gave the piece of paper to [redacted].
12 Q. Where did this happen? Where did this take place?
13 A. In front of Jusuf Memic's house.
14 Q. Who did you see? Who was present there when he wrote this down?
15 A. [redacted] was present.
16 Q. So the two of them, [redacted] and Mitar Vasiljevic; is that
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How far were they from you and the others?
20 A. The other people were in the house, and we were separated some 10
21 to 15 metres.
22 Q. Were the two of them standing or were they sitting down?
23 A. They were standing.
24 Q. Did you happen to notice how long they were standing and talking
25 and whether that was the only place they stood and talked?
Page 1406
1 A. I can't really say how long they were standing there for and
2 talking. I don't know. I simply don't know. All I do know is that they
3 were talking and he wrote on this piece of paper. And what he wrote was:
4 "If anybody comes to touch you, just show them the piece of paper."
5 Q. Did you happen to notice them doing anything else apart from
6 talking and this person writing down on a piece of paper?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Did you happen to notice a bottle in either of these persons'
9 hands? Were they drinking anything from a bottle perhaps?
10 A. (redacted) was an alcoholic. Probably they were -- he gave him some
11 brandy to drink.
12 Q. So as far as you remember, they were drinking something, but I'm
13 sure you didn't pay much attention to that; is that right?
14 A Yes, that's right.
15 Q Did this conversation with (redacted) take place immediately after
16 your arrival and after you were put up in the Memic house?
17 A. Well, I couldn't say.
18 Q. You can't remember how much time went by from the time you arrived
19 to the time you saw them, the two of them talking?
20 A. No, I can't say.
21 Q. Did you see them separate after that?
22 A. No. I went into the house.
23 Q. Did [redacted] go into the house later as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Without Mitar Vasiljevic?
Page 1407
1 A. That's right, without Mitar Vasiljevic.
2 Q. From that moment on, did you see Mitar Vasiljevic at all?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember anything else that would have been characteristic
5 that you would remember, any other event that took place before you went
6 into the house which would catch your attention in any way?
7 A. Well, yes. In the meantime, a woman went out to look into the
8 house at that Mahala place, and she found two people slaughtered there,
9 with their throats slit, from Koritnik, and we knew who they were and what
10 they were.
11 Q. So that was in the house where you -- I'm asking you about the
12 house where you were. Did anybody come and take anybody away from that
13 house?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who, and what happened?
16 A. Mitar Vasiljevic was outside.
17 Q. You're now talking about the other event when you say that the
18 four men turned up; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But I'm referring to before that. Did anybody come before that
21 and take any other people out of the house?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about the people you said were found in this other house?
24 And if I understood you, you said they had been slaughtered, their throats
25 slit.
Page 1408
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It was a married couple; they had been found with their throats
3 slit. Is that it?
4 A. No, they weren't a married couple. It was an elderly man and an
5 elderly woman.
6 Q. Do you know who they were?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Can you tell us their names or surnames?
9 A. Seco Kurspahic and Rasema Kurspahic.
10 Q. I'd like now to ask you about the second event, focus on the
11 second event, when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic for the second time, when you
12 say that four men turned up and you gave us their names: Milan Lukic;
13 Sredoje Lukic; Milan Susnjar, nicknamed Laco; and Mitar Vasiljevic. Is
14 that right; they were the four men?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. As we have descriptions of these men by witnesses, and apart from
17 Milan, who most people know on the basis of some other characteristics,
18 they spoke about a tall, fair man in the group. Who would you say was
19 this tall, fair or blond person, a tall, fair guy?
20 A. No, he wasn't tall and fair, sir.
21 Q. Of those four men, none of them you would describe as tall and
22 fair; is that right?
23 A. No, I wouldn't.
24 Q. Did anybody have a moustache?
25 A. Yes. It was Milan Susnjar.
Page 1409
1 Q. And was there someone who was very young, a young person of 18,
2 19?
3 A. No. As far as I was able to see, no.
4 Q. There was nobody like that amongst those four men?
5 A. No, sir, I didn't see anybody like that.
6 Q. Could you -- you explained to us how you knew the names of those
7 men, and you said that you knew some of them. Now, at that time, straight
8 away, immediately, while they were there, did you know their names, or did
9 you learn of their names later on?
10 A. There were people there who knew all four of them, and that's when
11 we learnt their names, when they took the money and gold, whereas they
12 knew Mitar, some of them knew Mitar from before, Milan Lukic, that is.
13 They knew him from before. Milan Susnjar as well, Laco, from the village,
14 and Sredoje.
15 Q. The people who knew Susnjar, what did they say? Who and what was
16 he?
17 A. As far as I heard, he was a baker.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, this is going to be a long subject, I
19 think, and it's now 4.00. So we'll adjourn - I hope I get it right this
20 time - until 9.30 tomorrow.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of October,
23 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
24
25