1 Wednesday, 14 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
7 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: WITNESS VGD22 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. VGD22, good morning. We shall continue our
12 conversation that we started yesterday afternoon when you explained how
13 and when you saw Mitar Vasiljevic near your house as you were on your way
14 home. Did you ever see him in the command for which you provided security
15 at Bikavac?
16 A. Good morning. I understand where we're going to pick up from.
17 The only problem is my monitor's not switched on, so I can't follow the
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 A. So your question was whether I ever saw Mr. Vasiljevic at the
21 command where I worked in the security.
22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I did not have occasion to see Mr. Vasiljevic at the command which
25 I provided security for.
1 Q. Did you hear of him coming to the command at Bikavac?
2 A. Yes. My colleagues who were working in the security at the
3 command told me on one occasion that he had come to the command.
4 Q. Did you find out what the reason was for his coming and what
6 A. I don't know why he came, but I think a misunderstanding occurred
7 in the command. I think that Mr. Vasiljevic had, I think, refused to
8 carry out an order of the command, and I think he left his weapon at the
9 command and marched out in a huff. At least that is what I heard.
10 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you learned from others, because
11 you were not at the command at the time, Mr. Vasiljevic came, there was a
12 discussion, and you said he left his weapon.
13 A. Yes. That is what I heard.
14 Q. Do you know what happened with Mr. Vasiljevic after that?
15 A. In view of the fact that I was working in the security of the
16 command, I know that they took Mr. Vasiljevic into custody.
17 Q. Was Mr. Vasiljevic taken into custody at the command itself or was
18 it somewhere else? Do you know that?
19 A. I don't know whether it was at the command itself or at some other
21 Q. Where was this detention that Mr. Vasiljevic was taken to, as you
23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, I don't recall there being any challenge
24 to your client's evidence about this. If there is something that you
25 really want him to deal with, I suggest you lead him to the position where
1 you want him to add something to what's already been said. I know you're
2 being very careful to not ask leading questions, but there was no issue
3 taken that your client was charged with something, and indeed there is
4 some promise, I think it was by you, that you would produce the document
5 indicating what the punishment was.
6 So if you want this witness to deal with something, please take
7 him to it. It will save us an awful lot of time.
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately, we do
9 not have any document about this - Mr. Vasiljevic testified to that - nor
10 do we have a document in our possession today about his detention. That
11 is why I address these questions to this witness. But I shall try and
12 limit myself to what may be of importance.
13 Q. So my next question would be whether you had occasion to see
14 Mr. Vasiljevic during the time he was in prison.
15 A. Yes. Once I did have occasion to see him in the prison where he
16 was held.
17 Q. Could you please describe how that happened.
18 A. Actually, the encounter occurred as follows: My neighbour and
19 friend, Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic, had been informed that Mr. Mitar was in
20 detention, and since he knew that I was on duty in the security of the
21 command, he asked me whether I could go with him to the place where the
22 detention unit was, for us to be able to visit Mitar.
23 Q. And did you do that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did anyone else go with you in addition to Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic
1 and yourself, if you remember?
2 A. Since it's been a long time, I think that we used the ambulance to
3 go to the detention unit, and I assume that one of the nurses may have
4 been present in the ambulance.
5 Q. Did you hear from Dr. Vasiljevic, or anyone else, the reason why
6 the doctor and possibly a nurse needed to visit him?
7 A. Mr. Radomir Vasiljevic had been informed that Mr. Mitar was
8 refusing food in detention, that he refused to eat, and he went to check
9 that out, to see whether it was true.
10 Q. On that occasion, did you personally see Mr. Vasiljevic, or was it
11 only Dr. Radomir Vasiljevic who actually saw him?
12 A. Yes, I also saw Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic on that occasion.
13 Q. Do you know, or could you perhaps tell us approximately when that
14 was when this happened, bearing in mind the time that you know you spent
15 at Bikavac?
16 A. If you mean a date, then I would say it could have been the end of
17 May, possibly the beginning of June.
18 Q. Do you know how long Mr. Vasiljevic was held in that detention
19 unit, for how many days?
20 A. I don't know how much time Mr. Vasiljevic was held there.
21 Q. And after that, did you see him around in Visegrad?
22 A. Yes. Shortly after that, shall I say a couple of days after this
23 visit of ours, I would see Mr. Vasiljevic in Visegrad.
24 Q. Do you remember what he was doing when you saw him?
25 A. I would see him -- or I saw him once when he was some kind of a
1 monitor, a person working with a group of other people cleaning the
2 streets and shop windows in town.
3 Q. Do you remember how he was dressed on that occasion, what kind of
4 clothing he wore?
5 A. If I remember well, at the time Mr. Vasiljevic was dressed, in
6 part, in military clothes, because I remember well he was just wearing
7 SMB, or that is, olive-grey trousers of the former JNA, and on top he was
8 wearing a civilian shirt or jacket of a darker colour.
9 Q. You mentioned that he acted as a kind of monitor. How did you
10 come to that conclusion?
11 A. I came to that conclusion on the basis of two reasons. One was
12 that I had heard from my colleagues previously that Mr. Vasiljevic was
13 performing those duties, and the second reason was because - I don't
14 remember now whether it was his left or his right arm - he was wearing a
15 ribbon which was, in my mind, probably a marking for the Red Cross or
16 something like that.
17 Q. What colour was this ribbon?
18 A. I'm afraid I'm not quite sure, but I think it was red with white.
19 Now, whether it was white with red or red with white, I'm not quite sure.
20 I don't know which colour predominated. But it was an indication of the
21 Red Cross.
22 Q. Do you mean to say that in view of the colour that you remember
23 the ribbon was in, that your association was that it was linked to the Red
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was he armed on that occasion?
2 A. On that occasion he certainly did not have a weapon. I didn't see
3 a weapon on him. Because he himself participated in the cleaning of the
4 streets and the shop windows. He was actually working.
5 Q. You said a moment ago that after that day, you would also come
6 across him. Was he armed on any of those other subsequent occasions?
7 A. I saw him as this monitor only once. The next time I would see
8 him, it would be in front of his family home, and he was not armed.
9 Q. Until when were you personally in Bikavac working as security of
10 the command?
11 A. I don't remember the exact date, but very briefly. I performed
12 those duties for a short while.
13 Q. And after that, where were you assigned?
14 A. After that, I was assigned to the duty of an operator for
15 ammunition, which actually I had done before the war had broken out, at
16 the ammunition depot.
17 Q. Does that mean that you returned to (redacted) and continued
18 working there?
19 A. No. In that period of time, the (redacted) was not at (redacted).
20 Q. After these occasions that you have described, when you saw
21 Vasiljevic, did you continue seeing him in the course of June or July or
23 A. I may have seen him a couple of more times after that, but later,
24 I was told that he was no longer in Visegrad, as he had an injury of his
25 leg, a fracture of his leg, as I was told.
1 Q. Did you hear where he was undergoing treatment?
2 A. At the hospital in Uzice was where he was treated.
3 Q. Did you see him after he returned from treatment?
4 A. Upon his return from treatment, whenever I went home, I would see
5 Mr. Vasiljevic in front of his own house. Usually he would be sitting
6 there with a plaster cast on his leg. And if he was walking, he did so
7 with the help of crutches.
8 Q. In view of the fact that you lived quite close to his house and
9 you knew him, could you tell us a few words about him as a person,
10 especially what you knew about him in those days in particular.
11 A. I don't know whether I will manage to explain properly the person
12 as I know him, for Mr. Vasiljevic, as far as his humane and moral
13 qualities are concerned, was a positive character in every sense of the
14 word. When I say "positive," I mean that there wasn't anyone who could
15 say that he had done anything bad or that he had hurt anyone at all.
16 Actually, there was no one who could say any such things. And I should
17 like to be more precise.
18 Q. Yes, please try.
19 A. From the moment I met Mr. Vasiljevic, as I lived in a certain
20 family situation, he would always assist me. When I was building my own
21 family house, in a period of time when the building was ongoing, I went to
22 do my regular military service, and Mr. Vasiljevic, not only did he
23 personally come to the assistance of my mother, as I was living with my
24 mother only, but he also organised other neighbours and friends to lend a
25 helping hand to my mother in the construction of our house. For me, this
1 is a gesture that I will never forget.
2 And there are other situations on the basis of which I see
3 Mr. Vasiljevic as a noble and good-hearted man.
4 I am married now and I have two children, a six-year-old daughter
5 who is handicapped. She has been since she was two. And for a whole
6 year, we chased around various medical institutions looking for remedies
7 for my daughter. And among other things, on one occasion we needed to go
8 to Italy for certain tests to be done over there. I think this was in
9 1998 or 1999.
10 Mr. Vasiljevic, whenever we would meet, would inquire about my
11 Tamara, my daughter, whether she was better. And when my wife was due to
12 leave for Italy with Tamara, Mr. Vasiljevic came over and gave my wife a
13 hundred German marks banknote, which was for us a lot of money in those
14 days, for her to have on her journey. And for us, this was a lot of
15 money, because our earnings were very small. And I considered this a most
16 generous gesture which I will always remember.
17 Q. Thank you for this description. But let me ask you, in those
18 days, in 1992, did you hear from others that Mr. Vasiljevic had done
19 anything bad to anyone or that he was a member of any paramilitary units?
20 A. I never heard from anyone that Mr. Vasiljevic was on bad terms
21 with anyone. And if you were to ask anyone from Visegrad the same
22 question, you would get the same answer.
23 As regards paramilitary organisations and Mr. Vasiljevic's
24 involvement with them, as far as I am familiar with the situation and as
25 far as I know Mr. Vasiljevic, I cannot imagine him being one of them.
1 Q. When you learnt that he was arrested and surrendered to the
2 Detention Unit in The Hague, what was your reaction?
3 A. Well, you see, in view of the kind of person I know Mr. Vasiljevic
4 to be, I was astonished that this could have happened to him, because I
5 really couldn't think of a single reason that would justify him being held
6 here as an accused for anything.
7 Q. Was this just your opinion or was it shared by anyone else in
9 A. Everyone was surprised that this should have happened to him.
10 Q. Did Mr. Vasiljevic like to have a drink? And of course I mean
11 spirits. Are you aware of that?
12 A. Yes. Mr. Vasiljevic, in a certain period of his life, drank a
13 little too much, which did not affect our good neighbourly relations.
14 This applies both to me and other neighbours and acquaintances. Nor did
15 it affect his family situation. What I mean to say is that the family did
16 not suffer because he used alcohol.
17 Q. Apart from this injury for which he was treated in hospital, as
18 you explained, do you know whether he was injured at any other time after
19 that again?
20 A. Yes. Mr. Vasiljevic did not seem to have any luck with those
22 As soon as his plaster cast was taken off the first time he had
23 broken his leg - I think he was visiting his father in the village - he
24 broke the same leg again and had to go to Uzice for treatment once again,
25 to the hospital there, and he had to wear a plaster cast for a long time
1 again, so that was rather unlucky.
2 Q. After what you have just told us about, was he injured at all?
3 Did he have another incident of that kind?
4 A. Yes. I do know that Mr. Vasiljevic had another spine operation
5 during the war, and that operation was performed, I think, in Belgrade.
6 After that, he had another injury. He was somewhere at the front lines,
7 deployed there somewhere, and as far as I know, he wasn't very
8 professional in handling weapons. He didn't -- and there was a
9 self-inflicted injury that took place. He injured his foot. I don't
10 remember whether it was the foot of the right or the left leg.
11 Q. Thank you. And finally, I should like to ask you a few questions
12 relating to the early period at the end of May, or rather, in April, when
13 you were in (redacted), before the arrival of the Uzice Corps. Now, from
14 the compound of your (redacted), was there shooting from there,
15 before the Uzice Corps arrived, at any time?
16 A. From the (redacted), where I was working immediately prior
17 to the outbreak of the war, quite certainly there was not. Not a single
18 shot was fired. I'm quite sure about that. And let me explain. The
19 first bullet that was fired, unintentionally, was by a member of the
20 reserve forces from within the Uzice Corps, and this happened just by
21 chance, and a fire broke out in one of the outhouses in the store house.
22 I mention that because I know that that was the only bullet that caused
23 problems for us in the warehouse itself.
24 Q. But as I understand you, this incident took place after the
25 arrival of the Uzice Corps; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said "not a single bullet." Now, to be precise, was there any
3 shooting from a mortar or from any other type of weapon?
4 A. No. From no kind of weapon was there any shooting from the
5 (redacted), neither before the Uzice Corps arrived or afterwards.
6 Q. And one more question related to the departure of the Uzice Corps,
7 which, as you said, took place in the days before the 19th of May. You
8 said that the 19th of May was the date when the last members of the Uzice
9 Corps left. Now, as they left Visegrad, did the members of the Uzice
10 Corps take with them vehicles, armaments, and all the other equipment that
11 they had with them, or not?
12 A. As I worked in the post that I did, I can say with full
13 responsibility that after the departure of the Uzice Corps, everything in
14 the warehouse was empty, and the doors were open, the keys were in the
15 administrative building, and everything had been taken. It all went with
16 the Uzice Corps.
17 Q. Yes, but what I was asking you was: Did they leave behind a tank,
18 a top, or any other materiel of that kind, a gun?
19 A. No. We didn't have materiel of that kind in the warehouse.
20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. VGD22. I have no
21 further questions.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Bauer.
23 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, I would like to go, for a start, in a
24 short private session because I have some questions which would reveal
25 probably the identity of this witness.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well. We'll go into private session.
2 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE HUNT: We are now back in public session.
15 MS. BAUER:
16 Q. VGD22, you just told us at the end of your testimony today that
17 Mitar Vasiljevic would have a drink from time to time; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And as far as you know, he continued regularly to work as a
20 waiter; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He continued to build his new house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As far as you are aware, he didn't react aggressively if drunk?
25 A. No. He never behaved aggressively.
1 Q. Neither to you as a neighbour?
2 A. Towards me as a neighbour, never. I don't know about -- and he
3 wasn't aggressive to other neighbours either, and I said that he wasn't
4 aggressive towards his family members.
5 Q. Did you ever see him drunk?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And according to you, he never lost control, did he?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you know that Mitar Vasiljevic was convicted for having an
10 altercation with a Serb in the 1980s?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Yesterday, you told us - and for the reference of the Court and
13 the Defence, at transcript page 83 - that you were contracted by the JNA
14 as of 1st of April, 1992; correct?
15 A. I was not called. I signed a contract on permanent employment
16 with the JNA.
17 Q. Who negotiated this contract with you?
18 A. The contract appeared in the Official Gazette. I responded to the
19 competition that was published, and I had all the qualifications for that
20 post and was accepted.
21 Q. Did you get any support from any side, political support, for this
23 A. I don't understand what you mean by that. How do you mean
24 "political support"? From what side? As I said --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
1 A. No. I had nothing to do with them, no contact with them at all.
2 Not only with them but with no party.
3 Q. Who paid your salaries?
4 A. Well, the then-JNA.
5 Q. And where did your paycheques come from?
6 A. From the command of the army.
7 Q. And where was the command of the army?
8 A. The command of the army -- it was the army district in Sarajevo,
9 and the command of the army was in Belgrade.
10 Q. So you got your money from Belgrade; is this correct?
11 A. Probably.
12 Q. You went right to the (redacted) without any training,
13 didn't you?
14 A. Yes, but previously I had been trained for work of that kind, the
15 work that I was later to do. I had been previously trained.
16 Q. Where had you been trained?
17 A. While I did my regular military service in the JNA.
18 Q. And where did you do your regular military service?
19 A. In Pec. It is a town in Kosovo and Metohija.
20 Q. VGD22, the JNA was a rather big army; right?
21 A. Was, yes.
22 Q. And they did recruit you directly from Visegrad; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did they recruit other people from Visegrad at the same time?
25 A. Yes, in Visegrad.
1 Q. Who were those people?
2 A. I don't know if I can remember the names now, but when I responded
3 to the competition and applied, they asked for five candidates. I think
4 it was five, and I think that five were accepted for different work posts
5 at the time. There were five vacancies.
6 Q. And the five that were accepted, what ethnicity were they?
7 A. All five were of Serb ethnicity.
8 Q. Apart from those five positions, did the JNA do any other
9 recruitment at that time in Visegrad?
10 A. Then, no.
11 Q. So later they did?
12 A. No, before.
13 Q. So would they recruit any paramilitaries as well?
14 A. No, not at all, by no means.
15 Q. So you testified that you worked as an ammunition mechanic at the
16 [redacted]. The (redacted) actually stored TO weapons
17 ammunition for the whole municipality, didn't it?
18 A. I don't know whether I am qualified enough to talk about that
19 topic, but I think that they were federal reserves, federal ammunition
21 And I would like to ask that as I still work in that work post in
22 the same warehouse, that we do not discuss that portion of how much is
23 where, whose it is, and so on. I'm thinking of the military materiel
24 stored in that warehouse.
25 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, if the witness has some serious concerns
1 about his security, I would have a couple of questions to ask him about
2 exactly the issue of weapons in storage, et cetera, and I would then ask
3 to go for a short private session.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any view on that, Mr. Domazet? It seems the
5 witness does have some concern.
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I agree that we move into private
7 session, because I feel that the witness is concerned. He's worried that
8 the questions that might be asked of him might bring him into a difficult
9 position and what was called in the JNA a military secret that he is
10 obliged to keep, confidentiality and secrecy that he is obliged to keep.
11 So I assume that the witness is concerned about that. But we can only
12 know what that will entail when the question is actually asked.
13 So I do agree that we go into private session, yes.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Bauer, we will go into private session and then I
15 want to say something about what Mr. Domazet has said.
16 Private session, please.
17 [Private session]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
13 Page 2375 – redacted – private session.
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in public session.
23 MS. BAUER:
24 Q. You yesterday told us that at that time you feared an attack by
25 Muslim extremists, and now you're telling us that you did have Muslim
1 soldiers and co-workers at that time still with you. Wouldn't it have
2 been logical to get rid of the Muslim soldiers first?
3 A. No. To my understanding, that is not logical. When I said
4 "Muslim extremists," not all the Muslim population was extremist, if I
5 may say so, like those groups of extremists, and especially not
6 professional military men. There were different ethnic groups, and
7 especially those working in the warehouse.
8 Q. But if they would have feared an attack of their like, they would
9 have not come to work any more, would they?
10 A. As they said in those days, they were not their like. There was
11 equal status for members of Serb and Muslim ethnicity that were working in
12 the warehouse at that time.
13 Q. So if I understand you, then, correctly, at that time there was no
14 conflict between the Muslim and Serb population in Visegrad around the
15 beginning of April; is that what you're telling us?
16 A. In Visegrad, yes, among the civilian population, but in the
17 warehouse itself, amongst us, there were no problems.
18 Q. So the civilian population would fight with each other and the
19 military would be peaceful; is this correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did they get their weapons from, the civilians?
22 A. The weapons were probably illegally procured.
23 Q. Isn't it rather correct, VGD22, that Serbs were provided, through
24 political and military bodies, with weapons in spring of 1992?
25 A. In view of the fact that I had no contact with weapons, I was not
1 handling weapons, I don't know that.
2 Q. Did you have a weapon before 1st of April, 1992?
3 A. No.
4 Q. As of April 1st, 1992?
5 A. As of 1st of April, 1992, that was the beginning of my official
6 contract with the JNA. Before that I was also in the (redacted),
7 and both myself and all others were armed.
8 Q. So my question was: Did you have, before April 1st, 1992, a
9 weapon? Yes or no, please.
10 A. Yes, in the (redacted).
11 Q. So that means -- was there storage room for weapons if you would
12 leave the (redacted)?
13 A. The personal weapons we had would be left with the security of the
15 Q. VGD22, it was wartime, wasn't it?
16 A. The war could be said to have started on the 6th of April. You're
17 asking me about the period prior to that.
18 Q. Then let's go after the 6th of April. You still worked at the
19 (redacted); right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So if you say the war broke out on the 6th of April, it would have
22 rather been unsafe to walk around without a weapon after that, no?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So at that point in time, you didn't walk around without a weapon
25 any more, did you?
1 A. At that time, too, I was in the warehouse.
2 Q. You also slept at the warehouse?
3 A. Yes. Not in the warehouse, but in a dormitory.
4 Q. So when was the first time you personally would leave the (redacted)
6 A. On the 19th of May, when the JNA left the then Bosnia and
8 Q. And when you left the (redacted), would you take your
9 weapon with you?
10 A. Yes. We were all left with our personal weapons when the JNA
12 Q. And isn't it correct that according to military rules, it would
13 have been an offence to lose your weapon?
14 A. Probably, but I don't know which weapons were lost.
15 Q. Did you personally ever lose your weapon?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I assume when you were on leave, you took it home with you, didn't
19 A. Sometimes I took it with me, but in most cases while we were at
20 the warehouse, we left it there.
21 Q. I'm talking now after the warehouse, when you were basically
22 assigned in Bikavac as a military policeman.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that was around end May; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you told us that Mitar Vasiljevic was mobilised at the same
2 time, correct, end May, 19th May?
3 A. I don't know when he was mobilised, but he was mobilised, like
4 everybody else who was able-bodied.
5 Q. And you knew that he worked in a kitchen in Prelovo. You
6 testified that at transcript page 94 of yesterday's transcript.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he told you that he was a cook; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the assignments of a cook are actually to transport food back
11 and forth from Visegrad front lines to supply food to soldiers and troops;
12 isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It would have been rather unsafe for him to have no weapon; isn't
15 that correct?
16 A. It doesn't mean that the cook had to go personally every time
17 distributing food to the troops.
18 Q. And let's assume he would travel to Visegrad and back and forth.
19 You would have taken along a weapon, wouldn't you?
20 A. Yes. I would, yes.
21 Q. Coming back to you, actually when you were assigned, how was your
22 shift like in Bikavac? Did you work daytimes, night-times, mixed shifts?
23 A. Mostly they were day- and night-long shifts, so it depended on the
24 time period how long our shifts would last.
25 Q. How would a usual -- how long would a usual shift last?
1 A. I don't know, but I think like guard duty. I don't think it
2 lasted more than two hours.
3 Q. So how often would you say you would go home, every two days,
4 every day, every night?
5 A. I don't remember exactly how frequently we went home, but when I
6 was free, when I was not on duty, I could be given a short leave to go
8 Q. When you went home, you took along your weapon, didn't you?
9 A. Not every time.
10 Q. Most of time?
11 A. Yes, probably.
12 Q. Sir, you testified that you never, ever, when you saw Mitar
13 Vasiljevic, saw him with any kind of -- type of weapon; correct?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. Can you think of any reason why Mitar Vasiljevic would tell us
16 then that he possessed an automatic rifle during his time in Prelovo? You
17 didn't see him with this, did you?
18 A. I would see Mr. Vasiljevic mostly when he was on leave, in front
19 of his house, and I never saw him when he was on duty as a cook in
21 Q. So you didn't see him having an automatic rifle? Yes or no,
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you also never saw him carrying a submachine-gun, a so-called
25 Schmeisser, in spring of 1992, did you?
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. And once released from hospital in summer, you never saw him
3 having a tommy submachine-gun in his house for his protection, did you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. A Thompson gun, I think is the correct word. I'm sorry I confused
7 A. No, I didn't see him.
8 Q. So actually, you didn't saw him that often at all to be absolutely
9 sure whether Mitar Vasiljevic had a gun or not; right?
10 A. As at the time he was on sick leave whenever I saw him in front of
11 his house, he was not armed.
12 Q. Let's go to see Mr. Vasiljevic cleaning the street. Did you see
13 him once or several times doing that?
14 A. Only once.
15 Q. As a military policeman in the Bikavac Hotel, did you have any
16 notice that Mitar Vasiljevic would undertake such a cleaning job?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you saw him, did you stop actually and talk to him or were
19 you just in passing?
20 A. Only in passing.
21 Q. So you actually cannot really talk about the operation of the
22 cleaning, can you?
23 A. When I say "in passing," I saw some people washing the shop
24 windows, cleaning, removing certain posters and leaflets. Others were
25 cleaning the streets with brooms. That is what I could see as I passed
2 Q. You said you passed by. Walking or in a car?
3 A. On that occasion, I was in an official vehicle.
4 Q. So actually, you had just a short glimpse of Mr. Vasiljevic,
5 didn't you?
6 A. Well, you could put it that way. I didn't stop the car. I didn't
7 stop. I saw him from the car as I passed by.
8 Q. Do you remember whether this was daytime or night-time?
9 A. Daytime.
10 Q. The people he was cleaning with were the Serbs?
11 A. If I remember well, there were both Serbs and Muslims. All the
12 people who were employed in a particular shop would come out of the shop
13 to clean their shop windows. The others were cleaning the streets.
14 Q. It was end May, beginning June of 1992; correct?
15 A. I think that was the period, yes.
16 Q. And Muslims were at war at that time with Serbs; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So can you explain the reason why Muslims would happily clean
19 streets with a Serb?
20 A. Probably, as would happen in my own unit, not all the people were
21 keen on waging war.
22 Q. Isn't it correct that most of the Muslim shops were actually
23 closed at that time already?
24 A. I don't know about that.
25 Q. You testified about Mitar Vasiljevic wearing a SMB old uniform.
1 Did you ever see him with a black military-type hat?
2 A. No. No such military hat exists.
3 Q. Is your testimony that in the whole military there was no military
4 hat in existence?
5 JUDGE HUNT: No black one, I think he's saying, Ms. Bauer.
6 MS. BAUER:
7 Q. Black military hat. Sorry.
8 A. No. There was no black hat among army members.
9 Q. So what kind of colour hat, if any hat was worn by the military
11 A. No hats were worn in the army as part of the official military
13 Q. You said as part of the "official military uniform." Were there
14 unofficial occasions where a hat was worn?
15 JUDGE HUNT: Look, Ms. Bauer, I'm not sure where we're going with
16 this. How can he answer that? A lot of people may have worn a military
17 uniform and a black hat. How would he know, unofficially or otherwise?
18 The problem is that the Prosecution seems to be unable to identify
19 just what hat it is they're referring to. It's been described in other
20 terms other than a military hat, and I don't really see that it is part of
21 its case that the hat that the accused was seen wearing was any sort of
22 military hat. It certainly hadn't been apparent if that is its case. So
23 I don't see where you're getting with this cross-examination. If I may
24 suggest that you move on to something that you may get somewhere with.
25 MS. BAUER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. On his uniform -- you're a military person; right? You were a
3 A. Yes, I was a soldier.
4 Q. So you were familiar with insignias; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the insignia you referred to Mitar Vasiljevic having was a Red
7 Cross insignia; isn't that correct?
8 A. I assume it was a mark indicating the Red Cross.
9 Q. Did he wear this ribbon any time else apart from the one time you
10 saw him cleaning the street?
11 A. It was only then that I saw this ribbon on his arm.
12 Q. So you never, apart from this one time, saw him having this ribbon
13 on the arm; right?
14 A. I don't remember whether I saw him any other time with that
16 Q. Do you remember having given a statement to Mr. Tanaskovic in
17 August 1992 -- sorry, 2000.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you gave the statement voluntarily?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you signed that statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you signed it as basically true and accurate to your knowledge
24 at that time; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. Did you say to Mr. Tanaskovic, and I quote you from the
2 English translation:
3 "I forgot to say that Mitar Vasiljevic wore an armband with a red
4 cross on the said uniform. He also," and I stress the word "also," "wore
5 that symbol when he was making the people clean the streets."
6 Did you say that to Mr. Tanaskovic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Wouldn't you agree with me, VGD22, that the word "also" refers
9 that you have seen him more than once with the said Red Cross sign on his
11 A. But you see, the way I recollected that particular detail then,
12 and I am reminded now again that he did have this red ribbon on his arm.
13 It wasn't something that I would have to remember.
14 Q. But it was rather such a distinct sign, wasn't it, that you refer
15 to it as a Red Cross sign in the statement?
16 A. I said that, that it was a mark indicating affiliation with the
17 Red Cross, because that type of work that he was doing was done by members
18 of the Red Cross and the civil defence.
19 Q. Did he ever tell you that he worked for the Red Cross maybe?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now let me ask you: End May/beginning of June, you were to go to
22 the town of Visegrad on occasions, wouldn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Would you see many Muslims around that time?
25 A. Not many, but I would see them.
1 Q. Isn't it a fact that most of them were leaving town in convoys at
2 that time?
3 A. I don't know. In that period I would still see them in town.
4 Q. As part of the military police, did you ever arrest Muslim men?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you learn that Muslim men were taken away?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You never heard that they were interrogated?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Bauer, may I remind you of something I said to
11 Mr. Ossogo yesterday about this line of cross-examination. There was no
12 dispute, as I understood it, to the Prosecution case that there was such
13 conduct in relation to Muslims in this particular town or the area. Now,
14 in those circumstances, do you need to pursue this witness' knowledge that
15 it was going on if it's not in dispute?
16 MS. BAUER: Your Honours, I'm not quite sure it's not in dispute,
17 actually, because as far as I understood so far the Defence case, it still
18 is in dispute that there was an attack on the civilian population.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there is on paper, but where was there in the
21 MS. BAUER: Well, so far we didn't hear all evidence yet.
22 JUDGE HUNT: It was the obligation of the Defence to put its case
23 to the Prosecution witnesses. None of them was cross-examined to suggest
24 that their evidence in relation to that sort of thing was untrue. Now,
25 the Trial Chamber is permitted in those circumstances to proceed upon the
1 basis that it is not in issue. If the Defence is unwise enough to attempt
2 to bring evidence in its case that it hasn't raised in the
3 cross-examination of the Prosecution case, then you will have a case in
4 reply. Let us not attempt to assume that the Defence doesn't know what
5 it's doing.
6 MS. BAUER:
7 Q. VGD22, you told us something yesterday about the relocation of or
8 dismantling of the (redacted). Where was the materiel relocated
9 to, if you testified about relocation?
10 A. All the ammunition (redacted), already while the
11 Uzice Corps was present there, was dislocated and moved to other
12 warehouses outside Visegrad.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Is that an appropriate time?
14 MS. BAUER: Yes.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll resume at 11.30.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Bauer.
19 MS. BAUER:
20 Q. VGD22, I'd like to go back to the Red Cross sign. I'd like to
21 understand your testimony. Did you say today that you actually saw a Red
22 Cross symbol or that you assume that Mitar Vasiljevic wore a Red Cross
24 A. I said that I saw Mitar Vasiljevic wearing a ribbon on his arm
25 which was red in colour, and in view of the kind of work he was doing, I
1 assumed that it was the sign of the Red Cross.
2 Q. However, also as you told us in your statement, you didn't say you
3 assumed it but you saw him actually with it; is that correct?
4 A. I still think that it was the sign of the Red Cross.
5 Q. Thank you. Would you say you knew Mr. Vasiljevic very well before
6 the war?
7 A. Well, I can't say that I knew him especially well. We weren't
8 especially intimate, but we were on good terms, good neighbourly
10 Q. And you would consider him a rather, you know, well-known person
11 in town, wouldn't you? He was a waiter as far as we know, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes. People mostly knew him. Most of the locals knew him, yes.
13 Q. And as far as you are aware, he never had a bad reputation in
15 A. As far as I know, that's right.
16 Q. So Muslims as well as Serbs alike didn't have any reason to
17 dislike Mr. Vasiljevic, did they?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And you wouldn't know of any reason why somebody would lie about
20 Mitar Vasiljevic, would you?
21 A. I'm not sure I understand your question.
22 Q. Well, do you think there is any reason that people would want to
23 lie about Mitar Vasiljevic if he was a rather well-liked person?
24 A. I don't know the reason why some people said about Mr. Vasiljevic
25 that he was a negative character. As far as I know, there was no reason
1 for characterising him in that way.
2 Q. Would you consider Mr. Vasiljevic a friend?
3 A. Well, I would say basically yes.
4 Q. And you would like to help a friend, wouldn't you?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. Is this the reason why you came here today?
7 A. I am here just to say how I know Mr. Vasiljevic, the kind of man
8 that I think he is.
9 MS. BAUER: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?
11 Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, just a moment ago when we went back to the
13 question of the ribbon and when you -- your attention was drawn to the
14 statement that you gave to Mr. Tanaskovic where the Red Cross was
15 mentioned, the question was, in fact, to explain that. And you said that
16 today you also think that it was the Red Cross sign.
17 Now, I'm asking you the following: Do you think that for the
18 reasons you stated a moment ago - and you said that it was a red band and
19 that that is why you assumed that it was the Red Cross and because of the
20 kind of function he performed, the post -- the job he was doing - or
21 because you saw something else on it?
22 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, if you want us to take any notice of his
23 answer, you must not ask leading questions. Just as in evidence in chief,
24 you must not ask leading questions in re-examination. You've probably
25 destroyed the value of his answer already, but I suggest that you do not
1 lead him to the answer you want.
2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Well, there were
3 several different answers so that I was in dilemma. I don't know what the
4 witness's final answer was. So let me restate the question, rephrase it.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I'll read you his final answer. The question was:
6 Q. However, also as you told us in your statement, you
7 didn't say you assumed it but you saw him actually
8 with it; is that correct?
9 And the answer was:
10 A. I still think that it was the sign of the Red
12 Now, that's where he's finished. You may ask him any questions
13 you like in a non-leading form about that, but that's where he is at the
15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely that: "I think it
16 was the sign of the Red Cross."
17 Q. Now, I'm asking you: On the basis of what do you assume that it
18 was the sign of the Red Cross? What leads you to that conclusion?
19 A. I'm not sure that I actually saw - how shall I put this? - a red
20 cross, an actual red cross, but the jobs he was doing, as far as I was
21 able to see, would have been the kinds of jobs performed by somebody
22 belonging to the Red Cross.
23 Q. Thank you. I think that is sufficient. Another question asked by
24 the Prosecution was the following, and it had to do with the function of
25 Drago Gavrilovic. Now, I'm just interested in the following: Did he work
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 in the command that was at Bikavac?
2 A. While I was there, no.
3 Q. Did he come there, as far as you know?
4 A. I didn't notice him up there, no.
5 Q. Was there some other command in the town of Visegrad itself or at
6 Bikavac itself?
7 A. I was providing security for the command that was at Bikavac. As
8 for the rest, I don't know.
9 Q. And one more question. I think that there was some
10 misunderstanding how you started working on the 1st of April in the JNA.
11 Did this come about because you responded to an advertisement published by
12 the JNA with vacancies for certain posts?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, this advertisement, was it public? Did it appear in the
15 public information media?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could all citizens apply, all citizens of Yugoslavia, could they
18 apply, the then Yugoslavia that existed?
19 A. Yes. Everybody who fulfilled the conditions of the competition or
20 advertisement were eligible to apply.
21 Q. Was it for five work posts, five vacancies, and were all five
22 vacancies filled after that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It was a contractual relationship with the army, for which you
25 received remuneration; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does it have anything to do with doing your military service, that
3 all able-bodied young men and citizens have to do?
4 A. No.
5 Q. At that time, that is to say, from the 1st of April until the 19th
6 of May, did you leave the warehouse at (redacted) or not?
7 A. No.
8 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
9 questions, Your Honours.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no questions, but I do have an
11 application before you excuse the witness.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it's regarding the prior statement of
14 this witness. Under its present form, the only proper use, according to
15 my understanding, that the Court can use it is to assess the credibility
16 of VGD22. It is a statement that does contain an affirmation by the
17 witness, and his signature, that he acknowledges, that he affirms that
18 everything stated here is the truth. I would at this time tender that
19 statement into evidence so that the Court can -- because of the importance
20 of the issue raised, that the Court can use it substantively as a piece of
21 evidence in the case.
22 JUDGE HUNT: But Mr. Groome, you can't bolster your witness'
23 credit in that way. If there had been a suggestion of recent invention,
24 you would get it in as a prior statement, but how else can it be?
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm not seeking --
1 JUDGE HUNT: It's not corroboration or anything like that. He's
2 given his evidence.
3 MR. GROOME: I'm not seeking to bolster any --
4 JUDGE HUNT: You said you were putting it on the basis that it was
5 relevant to credit.
6 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour. It's before the Court as that now,
7 so the Court -- the only proper use the Court can make of --
8 JUDGE HUNT: It's not before the Court at all. I'm sorry.
9 MR. GROOME: Well, the statements that are regarding it are before
10 the Court. The only proper use the Court can make of it at this stage is
11 to assess the credibility of this witness. My argument to the Court, or
12 my application, is that given that it is a statement signed by this
13 witness containing an affirmation that what's contained in here is the
14 truth, and given the importance of the issue that it speaks to, I make an
15 application to tender it into evidence so that the Court can not only use
16 it to assess his credibility but also use it substantively to reach a
17 decision on this important issue in the case.
18 JUDGE HUNT: I don't see how that gets it into evidence. I'm
19 sorry. What principle gets it into evidence? There's some independent
20 evidence of what he is saying? Because he has told us what he has said.
21 He's said a number of different things. We have to assess which one of
22 them is correct.
23 MR. GROOME: Well, then maybe there's a difference in law between
24 my jurisdiction and the Court's. My understanding is that the statements
25 made regarding this statement cannot be used substantively by the Court at
1 this point. The only way the Court could do that is if it were to admit
2 this statement as a piece of evidence in and of itself, and I believe
3 there is a foundation for doing so, given that it's a sworn statement.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I have only been here for three years, but I have
5 never seen it done. Have you got any instance where it has gone in
6 independently of his oral evidence?
7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I do not have any jurisprudence from the
8 Tribunal itself. I do have a treatise on evidence, and I would be willing
9 to raise the point or read the portion of the treatise on evidence, the
10 legal principle upon which I'm relying.
11 JUDGE HUNT: We have allowed statements to be used because they
12 are hearsay, but only because they are hearsay that we think they have
13 some value. A statement, a written statement such as that, is hearsay.
14 It doesn't become anything better than that. Now, we have allowed hearsay
15 evidence in because we are not restricted, as the common law would
16 restrict us, to direct evidence. But I don't see that a hearsay statement
17 as to what the witness said some time ago is going to assist us in
18 determining which of the different versions he has given here is the
19 correct one.
20 MR. GROOME: It would be my position, Your Honour, that it is not
21 hearsay, because the witness is here in Court and can presently adopt it
22 or has made an adoption of it in Court as something that was said.
23 JUDGE HUNT: But you have no opportunity to have him do that. You
24 didn't do it in cross-examination, as you could have.
25 MR. GROOME: Your Honour is correct in saying that.
1 JUDGE HUNT: I can see no procedural basis upon which you can get
2 it in, and in any event, I don't see that it's not already in evidence.
3 He agreed with Ms. Bauer that it was in his statement. Whether it was the
4 same statement, I don't know.
5 MR. GROOME: Okay, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you, sir, for coming here to give
7 evidence and for the evidence which you gave. You are now free to leave.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should like to thank the President
9 of the Trial Chamber for having listened to my testimony, by which I
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Domazet, while the next witness is coming, we were given this
13 morning the document which was filed yesterday about this expert on
14 X-rays. You haven't filed with the statement -- with the document the
15 statement that he has made.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE HUNT: And as you yourself was quick to point out in
18 relation to Dr. de Grave's statement, you are entitled to have it 21 days
19 in advance of his giving evidence, so just as the Prosecution is entitled
20 to have this doctor's statement.
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, I know, Your Honour, but this
22 witness, expert witness would have to take a look at the evidence in the
23 Tribunal, which the Prosecution has, before stating his views. And I
24 tabled a request to the Registry to that effect to allow him to obtain a
25 visa for him to be able to come to the Tribunal. Perhaps he would need to
1 have a talk with Mr. Vasiljevic as well and to take a look at all the
2 documents -- or, rather, the X-rays that are relevant in the case.
3 I see no other way of him being able to do this except if the
4 X-rays to be -- were to be taken to Belgrade, but ...
5 JUDGE HUNT: There's something to that, but Mr. Domazet, what I'm
6 concerned about is that this has always been an issue. It's been an issue
7 ever since the case began. The Prosecution sought your client's consent
8 to have him X-rayed sometime, as I recall, at the end of last year. Now,
9 it's a bit dismaying that you are leaving all of the preparation of your
10 case on this matter until now.
11 I drew your attention to the fact that you had not put any expert
12 opinion to Dr. de Grave when he gave his evidence, and you explained it
13 was because you hadn't yet received a report. But at some stage, the
14 Prosecution has to know what it is he's going to say, because as a result
15 of what you did not do when Dr. de Grave gave his evidence, the
16 Prosecution obviously has a case in reply, and it can call an expert to
17 deal with your expert's evidence. Hopefully, though, the Prosecution will
18 be in a position to be able to cross-examine your doctor based upon the
19 report which it obtains from its expert as a result of the report that you
20 have to produce.
21 This is why experts' reports are specially dealt with in the
22 Rules. The time can be shortened, and indeed I would hope that the
23 Prosecution would cooperate in doing so. But nevertheless, before your
24 doctor is called, they have to have the opportunity of obtaining advice
25 from their expert as to what he says so they can properly cross-examine
1 him, and then they will be in a position to call their expert in
3 So you better work out how this is going to be done. If your
4 doctor is going to come here and look at the X-rays and see your client
5 before he gives his evidence, he may have to go home again before he gives
6 his evidence. That's not the end of it. It's a very important issue in
7 this case. I'm just, as I say, dismayed that it's all being left so
9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, two days ago I received
10 another report from Mr. Groome. It is another expert opinion. So that
11 that finding, too, seems to me to be considerably different than the
12 previous one, and that too has to be looked at by my expert.
13 So I will do my best. I will really endeavour to do what I have
14 to do quickly.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, may I suggest this: that you and Mr. Groome
16 talk about some procedure that you can have. It may be that the two
17 doctors can discuss the matter. I don't know. But we have not got an
18 unlimited period in which to hear this case. We are all involved in
19 matters that are meant to be beginning at the commencement of next year,
20 and it was upon the agreed estimate, with some degree of addition added to
21 it, that we undertook this case.
22 Now, there's going to have to be something done between you and
23 Mr. Groome as to how this evidence is going to be given and how the issue
24 is going to be determined. But we cannot sit back and wait 21 days after
25 your doctor has seen your client, had a look at the X-rays, had a look at
1 this other report, which we haven't seen, and then bring him back and then
2 call another doctor obviously in reply.
3 So that's why I am raising it now, that you and Mr. Groome,
4 between you, in accordance with the cooperation that you've so far been
5 able to afford each other, can think of something, some way of getting
6 around this. It is, as I have said, a very important issue in the case,
7 and it's something which we cannot deny either party the opportunity of
8 dealing with it properly and fairly so far as other party is involved.
9 So during some adjournment, I urge you and Mr. Groome to come to
10 some agreement or some proposal perhaps for us to consider so that the
11 evidence can be given by both sides properly but after fair warning to the
12 other party.
13 Now, is the witness ready now? Right. Let's have the witness,
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you please make the solemn
17 declaration in the terms of the document which the court usher is showing
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
22 WITNESS: DRAGISA LINDO
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE HUNT: Your witness, Mr. Domazet.
25 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Thank you.
1 Examined by Mr. Domazet:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Would you be kind enough to introduce yourself? Tell us your
5 name, please.
6 A. My name is Dragisa.
7 Q. Will you please repeat your name and approach the microphone so
8 that the interpreters can hear you properly?
9 A. Lindo, Dragisa. Dragisa Lindo.
10 Q. When were you born, Mr. Lindo?
11 A. On the 8th of August, 1954.
12 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Lindo?
13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. Could the witness repeat that
15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you will have to speak up. It's very hard for
16 the interpreters to hear you, and if they don't hear you, we don't hear
17 you. So speak up, please.
18 Now, where do you live, Mr. Lindo?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Trsevine.
20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Trsevine, I assume is a village. Is it close to Visegrad?
22 A. Trsevine is a village close to Visegrad, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lindo, in 1992 were you also living there?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Where were you working at the time?
1 A. You mean the company or what? Varda, is that what you mean?
2 Q. No, before your mobilisation.
3 A. In the furniture factory Varda.
4 Q. Let me ask you something about this period, that is, 1992. Do you
5 remember at the time that the Uzice Corps was in town?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember the period after the Uzice Corps left?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell me regarding that period, after the departure of the
10 Uzice Corps, where were you and what were you doing?
11 A. I was mobilised by the Territorial Defence. They established a
12 kitchen in Prelovo, and I was there as an assistant worker. I would clean
13 up and look after the hygiene.
14 Q. So you were working in this kitchen in Prelovo mostly doing
15 maintenance of cleanliness; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember any of the people who were working in that same
18 kitchen doing the same or similar work as you?
19 A. Yes. There was the main cook, Vaso Vojinovic, his assistant
20 Mitrasin, and this [redacted]. I can't recall his name. There was a health
21 inspector who was there, Mitar Vasiljevic.
22 Q. You mentioned Mitar Vasiljevic.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you know him from before or did you meet him then?
25 A. We know each other from childhood. He went to school passing by
1 my house. We went to the same school, and that's how we know each other.
2 He completed his schooling as a waiter and went to Visegrad. So -- shall
3 I continue?
4 Q. Just a minute, please. So, Mr. Lindo, this Mitar Vasiljevic who
5 is from Djurevici and who you say you know well was with you and with
6 these other people, when the Uzice Corps had left, in Prelovo and worked
7 there. Was he, too, mobilised like you?
8 A. Yes. He was mobilised in Prelovo. He received a red armband. He
9 took care of cleanliness and hygiene and the distribution of food and
10 things like that.
11 Q. Was he also responsible for supplies? Did he go and fetch
12 victuals and other things that he needed?
13 A. Yes. We had a small van which was mobilised by the TO, and it was
14 used exclusively for getting food. What exactly were the foodstuffs, I
15 don't know in detail.
16 Q. So if I understood you correctly, in addition to hygiene and
17 cleanliness, he also went to fetch foodstuffs in this van which you had
18 and which, as you said, had been taken by the Territorial Defence,
19 probably from somebody, for their needs.
20 A. It belonged to the Sumarstvo of which Vojinovic was in charge, the
21 forestry company. I can't remember the first name now. Obren.
22 Q. So this van was driven by Obren Vojinovic; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So this van, which was really the property of Sumarstvo, this was
25 probably a company of which Obren -- and Obren Vojinovic drove it, and
1 they used this van to get supplies?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So where did they go? Do you know?
4 A. From Prelovo to Visegrad. I don't really know exactly where they
5 went. Where the front lines were. That was what it was intended for.
6 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Lindo, whether Mitar Vasiljevic wore a
7 uniform, and if he did, could you explain what kind?
8 A. Mitar Vasiljevic was issued an olive-green uniform such as the JNA
9 used to wear, and most of us were wearing that uniform.
10 Q. Is that the uniform that the reservists of the then JNA held at
11 home? They were issued with them and they kept them at home; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Apart from what you told us regarding the duties of Mitar
15 Vasiljevic, do you know whether he took part in the distribution of food?
16 A. From time to time he would go, when these others were not
17 available. This was according to a schedule, and I really can't remember.
18 Q. You personally, did you go to carry food to the front line?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. So you could not have gone with him on such an occasion?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Do you perhaps remember, Mr. Lindo, timewise, how long was Mitar
23 Vasiljevic with you?
24 A. He was there for about 10 to 15 days in this kitchen. After that,
25 when the kitchen was to be moved closer, we went to the village of Blace,
1 with the kitchen.
2 Q. At the time when you went with the kitchen towards Blace, was
3 Mitar Vasiljevic with you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And do you know how it came about that he was no longer in
7 A. Simply, we left. We went on working there. So I don't know.
8 Whether he was mobilised to some other place, I don't know. I heard
9 afterwards that Mitar had broken a leg.
10 Q. If I understood what you said correctly, Mr. Lindo, Mitar
11 Vasiljevic stopped coming to Prelovo one day and you didn't know why.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And it seems to me that it's possible that he may have been
14 reassigned to some other position but that you don't know about that. Is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall whether he was issued any weapon?
18 A. I don't remember. He was naturally issued with a weapon. Whether
19 it was an automatic, semi-automatic weapon, I really don't remember. But
20 he rarely carried it, because there was no fire there. How can I put it?
21 I didn't pay attention what kind of weapon he was carrying, whether it was
22 automatic or semi-automatic. I don't remember.
23 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you know for certain that he was
24 issued a weapon but you cannot now recall what type of weapon it was.
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. During those 10 to 15 days, as you said, that you remembered that
2 he was with you, did you have any kind of problems with him or did anyone
3 else that was with you have any problems with him, provoked by Mitar
5 A. No. I said we know each other since childhood. It's a good
7 Q. Did you hear later what happened to him?
8 A. As I said, I heard he had broken a leg. And then later I met him
9 in town. I saw him with crutches. He had broken a leg. I don't know how
10 much later this was.
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
12 questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination? Mr. Groome.
14 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Groome:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lindo. I'm standing to your right, and my
17 name is Mr. Groome and I'm representing the Prosecution in this case. I'm
18 going to ask you a number of questions regarding some of the things you've
19 testified about here this morning.
20 From what you've told us, it seems that you were born the same
21 year as Mr. Vasiljevic; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And would it be correct to say that you essentially grew up
24 together with Mr. Vasiljevic?
25 A. No. It's almost 15 kilometres away, but he had to go to school on
1 foot - there was no bus - and he would pass by my house.
2 Q. Did you and Mr. Vasiljevic attend the same school?
3 A. No.
4 Q. As children growing up, would you and Mr. Vasiljevic ever play
6 A. For the first four years, yes. I left school, but he went on to
7 catering school.
8 Q. Let me ask you if you can maybe help us understand a little bit
9 about Mr. Vasiljevic as a boy. Are you aware of any particular hobbies
10 that he had, perhaps sports, music, art, or horseback riding? Are you
11 aware of any particular interest he had in hobbies?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. The town of Visegrad, did you know the names of or did you know
14 who the Muslim imams were in that town?
15 A. There are a lot of them. This was nine years ago. I never
16 thought about these things. I can't remember. My friends -- I can't even
17 remember the names of my friends now.
18 Q. I realise that it was a long time ago, Mr. Lindo, but if you could
19 assist us and tell us approximately how many different imams would you say
20 there were in Visegrad in the year 1992?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't quite catch the word
22 you're using.
23 MR. GROOME: I'll just repeat the question.
24 Q. Mr. Lindo, I realise that it was a long time ago, but I'm asking
25 you if you can assist us by telling us approximately how many imams, or
1 Muslim holy men, lived in the town of Visegrad in 1992. Just an
2 approximation will do.
3 A. I really can't remember.
4 Q. Were you familiar with any of them?
5 A. Among them? What do you mean? I don't know.
6 Q. Let me ask you this: Would you say that there were more than two
7 Muslim holy men, or imams, in the town of Visegrad in 1992?
8 A. You mean the number of them? I'm not able to tell you. I don't
10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, if you want to object, please say so.
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe I can be of
12 assistance. The interpreter is using the word "imam." I would prefer the
13 use of the word "hodza." Maybe the witness will understand it better. It
14 is one and the same, "hodza" and "imam." The Serb population uses this
15 term more often, and it's quite possible that the witness didn't
16 understand the word "imam." If you ask him how many hodzas there were,
17 maybe he will find it easier to answer your question. That is all I
18 wanted to say. The same applied to Mr. Vasiljevic when that question was
19 put to him. So if you could use the term "hodza," please.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Does that include the term "religious holy man,"
22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so, Your Honour. A
23 hodza is another word for the imam, but it is more frequently in use among
25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Groome, I suggest you take up Mr. Domazet's
1 very helpful suggestion.
2 MR. GROOME: I will, Your Honour. I thank Mr. Domazet for that.
3 Q. I apologise, Mr. Lindo. That is what I'm asking you about:
4 hodza. Let me repeat the question. Are you able to approximate for us
5 about how many hodzas were in Visegrad in 1992?
6 A. I know of one only.
7 Q. When I misused the word, or I used the other word, "imam," you
8 said there were a lot of them. So were you thinking of something other
9 than hodza when you said that there are a lot of them?
10 A. I don't know what you meant. I thought you were referring to
11 Muslims as a whole, in general, but I never heard of this word "imam."
12 We use the word "hodza."
13 Q. Now, the hodza that you know, did he own a horse?
14 A. I can't remember now whether he had one. I really won't know.
15 Q. I want to ask you a little bit about your work in Prelovo. How
16 long did you work in the Prelovo area?
17 A. About all in all, from the time we were mobilised -- let me see.
18 How long was it until the Uzice Corps left? After the Uzice Corps, it
19 was. I can't remember. I didn't keep a diary.
20 Q. Are you able to approximate for us how long Mr. Vasiljevic worked
21 in Prelovo?
22 A. I said about 10 to 15 days.
23 Q. Now, you told us that Mr. Vasiljevic was -- I believe you said a
24 hygiene inspector. Could you please tell us specifically what his
25 function was? What would he do on a day-to-day basis?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. As I was saying, he would give us orders, the lower-level people.
2 We were assistant workers. He was a kind of inspector. That's how I
3 understood his position to be, because he gave us orders how to maintain
4 hygiene, to make sure the food was clean, to wash up and clean up and that
5 sort of thing.
6 Q. And if somebody did not show up for work, would he be responsible
7 for shifting people in their responsibilities to cover the
8 responsibilities of the person who did not come to work that day?
9 A. I didn't notice anything. People came regularly.
10 Q. Let me ask you this: If perhaps one day you were sick, whose
11 responsibility would it be to find somebody to actually cook the food, to
12 do your job?
13 A. Cook Vaso Vojinovic. He was the cook.
14 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. If Vaso Vojinovic was sick one day, whose
15 responsibility would it be to find somebody to replace him for that day?
16 Would it be Mitar Vasiljevic's?
17 A. As he was a waiter he would do those things, but whether Vaso
18 Vojinovic didn't appear for work one day, I don't know. It could happen,
19 but I don't remember.
20 Q. Let me ask you the question a different way. You said that from
21 time to time, Mitar Vasiljevic would actually distribute the food,
22 something different than his ordinary duties. What I'm asking is: Who
23 would make the decision that on a particular day, Mitar Vasiljevic should
24 not be in charge of hygiene but should go and distribute the food? Who
25 would make that decision?
1 A. I don't remember, because I didn't distribute the food. So I was
2 never close by to see people coming and going. I know that he would go to
3 fetch food in the van. Now, whether they agreed amongst themselves who
4 would do what, I really don't remember.
5 Q. During the entire time that -- well, I'm sorry. I withdraw the
7 You said that Mitar Vasiljevic worked there between 10 and 15 days
8 and that from time to time he would distribute the food. Can you
9 approximate for us how many times he actually went and distributed the
10 food? Would it be more or less than two?
11 A. The food was taken once a day, because for the evening it was
12 dry-packed food so as to avoid travelling in the dark. So I really can't
13 remember who went when. This school where we were working is a big
14 building. I had my own premises where I was working, so I really can't
16 Q. Was it the regular practice of your unit to distribute dry-packed
17 food for the evening meal so that nobody would have to distribute food in
18 the night? Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. I suppose that was how it was. I don't remember any more
21 Q. I want to ask you a hypothetical question. In your opinion, had
22 Mr. Vasiljevic expressed a fear of distributing the food because of where
23 the location was? Is it your opinion that he would have been forced,
24 nonetheless, to go distribute that food?
25 A. I had nothing to do with that, as I said. I don't remember these
2 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Lindo: During the 10 days or 10 or 15
3 days Mr. Vasiljevic was there, did you ever see anybody order him to go
4 and distribute food against his will or against his reservation? Did you
5 ever see that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The place where you worked, where the food was prepared, did you
8 yourself feel that under threat there? Did you feel that you could be
9 harmed because of the nearby conflict, or did you feel safe in that place,
10 in that school?
11 A. We didn't feel too safe.
12 Q. During the time that you worked in this -- on these duties, was
13 there ever an incident where somebody either in the school where you were
14 cooking or somebody nearby was injured?
15 A. I don't remember that happening.
16 Q. Now, in your position, were you required to wear any special
18 A. It depended what people had on them. I had an SMB JNA uniform as
19 it arrived, this other uniform.
20 Q. And were you required to wear that SMB uniform or that's simply
21 what you chose to wear?
22 A. We had it ourselves.
23 Q. Now, given that you've told us that the evening meal was provided
24 as a dry-packed food, what time would you typically serve the midday meal
25 and this evening meal? What time of the day would that be done?
1 A. I don't remember that, because this -- the distribution depended
2 when they got to it. We were cooking. Those of us who was in the
3 kitchen, we didn't eat dry-packed food. I said that food was packed for
4 those further away.
5 Q. Well, what time was the kitchen expected to have finished the
6 preparation of the midday meal? What time was that supposed to have been
7 completed by?
8 A. Well, it depended. If you had enough wood and enough people to
9 serve, then it was quick, but otherwise, I can't remember. I never paid
10 attention to that kind of thing.
11 Q. Am I correct in thinking that the food that you were preparing was
12 for soldiers that were fighting on the front line? Is that correct?
13 A. Well, I didn't do the cooking. I was just one of the workers,
14 assistants. So there was the cook, there were the other people, and I was
15 in charge of the cleaning or anything that Mr. Vasiljevic told me to do,
16 the hygiene, cleaning.
17 Q. Let me ask you again. The food that you were preparing though,
18 the work of this team was to feed soldiers fighting on the front line;
19 correct? You need to speak up so that the interpreters can hear you.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And would I be right in thinking that the commander of these
22 soldiers expected his men to be fed at a specific time? Is that not
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are you able to tell us what that time was? An approximation is
1 fine. Is it noon, is it 4.00 in the afternoon, is it 6.00 in the
2 evening? Can you give us an approximation of when those soldiers were to
3 be fed?
4 A. Well, it depended. It didn't have to be at a set time. I don't
5 know. I never had to -- I can't tell you. I can't give you the exact
6 time. I don't really remember. I don't know. It wasn't my ...
7 Q. How long did you work there, sir?
8 A. Well, the time I was there, when that kitchen started. Whether it
9 was after the Uzice Corps, I don't remember. We were there in Prelovo.
10 We went to Blace. How much time passed, I don't know. Perhaps more than
11 15 days. I don't know. I don't remember.
12 Q. When you finished your work for the day, how would you get back to
13 your home?
14 A. I lived nearby, and he would go. Sometimes he had the kombi van
15 belonging to the Territorial Defence. Well, he did what he could. He
16 fended the best he could. I didn't actually follow all that. I don't
18 Q. Who is the "he" that you're referring to now?
19 A. Mr. Vasiljevic. He lived in Visegrad. So he would go up to his
20 home and come back in the van, or when Obren would go to fetch the
21 foodstuffs or if he had to spend the night or the van had to spend the
22 night from time to time. I don't know. I can't remember.
23 Q. Who would -- would Mr. Vasiljevic sometimes drive down to Visegrad
24 in this kombi van by himself?
25 A. He's not a driver. So nobody can take the vehicle. He's not a
1 driver. He would have to be issued a vehicle. He's not a driver.
2 Q. So you said -- when you said "he had the van," meaning
3 Mr. Vasiljevic had the van, did you mean that he had responsibility for
4 the van and could direct the driver to go wherever he needed to go? Is
5 that what you mean?
6 A. No. No. No, no. I said for the transport, for transport to
7 Visegrad. He went with Obren Vojinovic. And whether he went -- whether
8 he ask an auto stop or stopped somebody along the way or -- he didn't have
9 his own van. He wasn't a driver either.
10 Q. You said -- you told us that you live close by to Prelovo. Did
11 you ever stay overnight in the school?
12 A. No. I'm from Trsevine. It's one village next to the other.
13 Q. And were you aware that Mitar Vasiljevic ever stayed overnight in
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Now, you've told us that one of the people who worked on this crew
17 was a person by the name of [redacted] and that you don't know his first
18 name; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, [redacted]. Whether [redacted]or -- I couldn't put him down on a
20 list. I don't know the first name. It says [redacted] Whether it was
21 [redacted] or something, I don't know. So I couldn't mention it, because I
22 don't now know his first name. So I couldn't state his -- I couldn't say
23 Obren's name either a moment ago.
24 Q. Could I ask you this: Is the reason you don't know his first name
25 is because on this crew, people referred to him as [redacted]; that's what
1 they called him when they needed to speak to him?
2 A. [redacted]was his nickname. [redacted]. I couldn't give you his name, but
3 [redacted]was his nickname. And [redacted], well, so that was without his
4 first name, but his nickname was [redacted]. That's why I said it.
5 Q. Can you describe his physical appearance for us?
6 A. Well, like me, a man like me, my sort of height. He had a
7 moustache, like I do.
8 Q. Could you tell us what your height is?
9 A. Well, is it 68? How should I know? I never measured myself. I
10 really don't know.
11 Q. And was he your approximate build or your approximate weight?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And can you tell us approximately how much you weigh?
14 A. Seventy-three.
15 Q. And can you tell us what was his approximate age?
16 A. I don't remember. He was from quite another village. He was
17 there with me, but we never went into those things, about years and so
18 on. And he lives abroad anyway now. I don't know for how long he's been
19 living there.
20 Q. Was he living abroad before his work in Prelovo, or do you know?
21 A. No. Yes, he did, abroad, and then during those - how shall I say
22 this - mobilisation, during the mobilisation.
23 Q. So he was from outside the Visegrad but returned when the conflict
24 began and local Serbs were mobilised; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, would I be correct in assuming that Mitar Vasiljevic also
2 would have known this [redacted]? It sounds like it was a relatively small
3 crew. Would I be correct in assuming that?
4 A. Well, whether he's abroad or not, I wasn't with him much, and I
5 can't even remember his first name now. Now, whether somebody knows him
6 or doesn't know him, they should have known, but I don't know.
7 Q. What I'm asking you is: The 10 to 15 days that Mitar Vasiljevic
8 was there, at that time was [redacted] also working on this crew?
9 A. [redacted]?
10 Q. Yes. Were [redacted] and Mitar Vasiljevic working in this crew at
11 the same time?
12 A. [redacted] was there in the kitchen, but who did what, what
13 responsibilities, I don't know.
14 Q. Okay. I'm not asking you what their responsibilities were. I'm
15 simply asking you: At the time that Mitar Vasiljevic was the hygiene
16 inspector, was [redacted] working in the kitchen?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And is there any reason that you can think of why Mitar
19 Vasiljevic, if asked to name the people he worked with, would not mention
20 the name [redacted] as one of those people? Is there any reason that you're
21 aware of?
22 A. Well, I don't remember the name either, so maybe -- that's what
23 I'm saying. It was a long time ago. I don't remember. Maybe he didn't
24 remember either.
25 Q. Perhaps. I want to ask you about the weapon now. You have told
1 us about the weapon that you were issued. Are you able to say that
2 everyone on the crew was issued a weapon? Is that true?
3 A. Well, we were mobilised, so regardless of who we were and what we
4 were, we all did, yes. Now, what it was, I don't remember. I know that I
5 had a semi-automatic.
6 Q. Now, were you forced to carry a weapon? In other words, if you
7 felt that you did not need your weapon on a particular day, could you be
8 punished for not having it with you?
9 A. It was a matter of luck. The guards were always there.
10 Q. If you showed up for work one day and you had left your weapon at
11 home, would those guards have punished you or reported you to the military
13 A. No.
14 Q. So in other words, if for some reason you decided not to carry
15 your weapon on a particular day, you could perhaps lock it in your house
16 or some other safe place and not worry about being punished for not having
17 your weapon; is that correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It's correct that you would not be punished if you did not have
20 your weapon; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, again if you could assist us with your experience. If
23 somebody was caught misusing a weapon - let's say they were very careless
24 with it or perhaps had fired it while being drunk - would the superiors in
25 the Territorial Defence, would they take the weapon away from that person?
1 A. Well, it didn't happen to me. I don't remember.
2 Q. Are you aware of any instance where a superior officer confiscated
3 or ordered the confiscation of a weapon from one of the TO members?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, can you tell us: When did the kitchen move from this school
6 in Prelovo to -- I believe the village is Blace? When did that happen?
7 A. I keep telling you that I really don't remember. It's nine years
8 ago. Had I known that I would need that -- I never knew that I would
9 have -- I would have noted it down, had I known that I would need it.
10 Q. Can you tell us what month it occurred in?
11 A. Well, when you ask me that, let me tell you, I don't even know
12 when the war started or when the war ended. I don't really know. I don't
14 Q. Let me see if perhaps I can assist you. Are you familiar with the
15 Orthodox holiday of the Holy Trinity?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. The question is: Do you know that holiday? Is that a holiday
18 that --
19 A. Yes, I know of it, but I don't know what month it falls in.
20 Q. Can you tell us whether the kitchen moved to Blace before the
21 Feast of the Holy Trinity or after the Feast of the Holy Trinity? Are you
22 able to tell us that?
23 A. I keep telling you: I really don't remember. I don't know what
24 month. Whether it was before, whether it was after, I really don't know.
25 If I knew, I would say, but I don't know, and that's it. I don't
1 remember, so don't please keep asking me.
2 Q. I apologise. I'm just going to ask you a couple more questions
3 regarding the time. You're not able to tell us, in other words, with any
4 type of precision, when Mitar Vasiljevic left Prelovo; is that correct?
5 A. He was there a very short period, 10 to 15 days. He left, but
6 what time and when that was, please don't insist. If I knew the dates, I
7 would tell you straight away, right here and now.
8 Q. Now, I see from your statement you've said that a few days after
9 he left, you heard that he had broken his leg. Is that correct?
10 A. Several days. Now, whether it was a month, I don't know. It
11 might have been a month. Whether it was a month or two. I said a few
12 days. I meant some time later I heard that Mitar Vasiljevic had broken
13 his leg. I was still doing my work and I had a lot of farming to do, and
14 I didn't pay attention to any of that.
15 Q. So but it could have been as much as one month or two months after
16 he left that you heard that he had broken his leg; is that correct?
17 A. Well, that's what I'm saying, but I don't remember anything. I
18 can't tell you face to face even if it was half a year. I don't know. I
19 don't remember. I never said a date. I don't know.
20 Q. And at the time that you heard that Mr. Vasiljevic had broken his
21 leg, would it be fair to say that you learnt that it happened -- that he
22 broke his leg soon after he had the accident? It wasn't a long time, but
23 a short period of time; is that correct?
24 A. I said after a longer time, when he came back from hospital, I saw
25 him in Visegrad with crutches and a plaster cast on his leg. Now, how
1 much time went by, I really don't know. I can't tell you a date. I don't
3 Q. Is that the first time that you learnt that he broke his leg?
4 A. I said a moment ago that I heard, a few days afterwards - I can't
5 say - 10, 15. I didn't know how much time had gone by, but one or two
6 months later I heard; I heard he had been in hospital and came to
7 Visegrad, and I saw him in Visegrad and he was wearing a plaster cast and
8 walking with crutches.
9 Q. Did you hear how he broke his leg?
10 A. Well, I heard what I heard, that he fell off a horse.
11 Q. And did you know whose horse it was?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And can you tell us how it was that Mitar Vasiljevic came to be
14 riding that horse?
15 A. I really don't remember any of that, what happened. He was
16 immobilised. That's what I had heard. Now, what actually happened, I
17 don't know. I don't remember. I wasn't informed about it. I also broke
18 my leg. I know what it's like when you break a leg, because I myself have
19 broken a leg.
20 Q. Well, am I correct in thinking that when you first saw him after
21 he came out of the hospital and you saw him with the cast, that one of the
22 first questions you probably asked him was: "Mitar, how did you break
23 your leg?" Am I correct in thinking that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So when you saw Mitar that day on crutches and with the cast, you
1 never asked him how he broke his leg? Is that what your testimony is?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. So your testimony is that you did not ask him about how he broke
4 the leg; correct?
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. I apologise --
7 A. I didn't.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, also in your statement, you said that you
9 know Mr. Vasiljevic well and that you asserted that he was not the member
10 of any paramilitary unit; is that correct?
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says, "No. No."
12 MR. GROOME:
13 Q. So you do not believe that he was the member of any paramilitary
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you know a person by the name of Dragan Tomic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I want to ask you about Pionirska Street. As you must know at
19 this stage, this trial involves a house burning that occurred on Pionirska
20 Street with a great loss of life. When did you first become aware of what
21 happened on Pionirska Street?
22 A. I really don't remember where the house burnt, what street. I
23 tell you again, I really don't remember anything, because there was
24 burning all over the place. So ...
25 Q. When you say "burning all over the place," are you referring to
1 the town of Visegrad itself or the villages surrounding Visegrad or
2 perhaps both?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. So you mean the villages surrounding Visegrad and the town itself;
5 correct? You need to answer --
6 A. Yes. That's why I don't remember when that actually was.
7 Q. Now, I'm not asking you to tell us where it was or any details
8 about it, but I'm asking you to recall for us the first time you heard
9 that this occurred. When was the first time that you learnt of this
11 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember. Well, here I am, but
12 I don't remember.
13 Q. Well, can I ask you, did you learn about it in 1992 or did you
14 learn about it at some point after Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested and
15 charged with it?
16 A. I don't remember that either.
17 Q. Did you learn about it before Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested?
18 A. I told you a moment ago that I don't remember when that Pionirska
19 Street was or what house it was. I had my work to do, and I didn't go
20 into town. I never went into town. I just said that when I went to town
21 on business after a longer amount of time, I saw that Mr. Vasiljevic had
22 broken his leg. Now, when that was, when that all happened, I don't know.
23 Q. Mr. Lindo, I'm not asking you when the fire was. I'm just simply
24 asking you when was the first time somebody told you that there had been
25 this fire on Pionirska Street? Was it before Mr. Vasiljevic was
2 A. I told you a moment ago I don't remember one, and I don't remember
3 the other. I said I don't remember any of that. Whether it was May or
4 December or -- I don't know. I don't remember any of the dates. I'm just
5 talking off the top of my hat now.
6 Q. I apologise for keep insisting on this --
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Groome, really. He's told you twice quite
8 specifically he does not remember. Now, can you challenge that rather
9 than just asking the question again?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you repeat, please?
11 JUDGE HUNT: Don't you worry, sir.
12 There has to be a limit to repetitive cross-examination.
13 MR. GROOME: Just that the answer is somewhat non-responsive, Your
14 Honour, and --
15 JUDGE HUNT: It is directly responsive. You have asked him:
16 Q. ... did you learn about it in 1992, or did you learn
17 about it at some point after Mr. Vasiljevic had been
18 arrested and charged with it?
19 A. I don't remember that either.
20 Now, that's clearly responsive and it's an answer to your
21 question. Then you asked him again at lines 8 to 10 on the page, and he
23 A. I told you a moment ago I don't remember one and I
24 don't remember the other ... I don't remember any of
1 Now, that clearly is a responsive answer to your question, and
2 there comes a time when you really can't pursue in asking him the same
3 question again and again. You can cross-examine him as to his answer that
4 he does not remember, but you don't do so by asking the question again.
5 Well, we'll resume now at 2.30.
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 2.28 p.m.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
9 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour. Just before I begin, just to
10 inform the Court, I have spoken to Mr. Domazet regarding the X-ray expert
11 and arrangements to have copies made so that they can be sent to Belgrade
12 hopefully within the next few days for that expert to see them.
13 JUDGE HUNT: We're very grateful. Whatever you can do to make
14 sure we don't have a long wait to get your case in reply.
15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: By the way, have you filed the other report that you
17 have given Mr. Domazet or is it not for our sight yet?
18 MR. GROOME: Well, Your Honour -- I believe there's no
19 translation, is that correct?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The transcript, Mr. Groome.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, actually the transcript is missing some of what
22 you said, too. However, what you said was that you have made arrangements
23 with Mr. Domazet to provide copies of the X-rays and reports.
24 MR. GROOME: That's correct, Your Honour. And regarding the other
25 report that Mr. Domazet referred to, the Prosecution received a report
1 from another expert on Friday that was furnished to Mr. Domazet Monday
2 morning. As it is not tendered into evidence, I think it may be
3 inappropriate for me to discuss the results of it, but Mr. Domazet is
4 aware of those results and can use them as he sees fit.
5 And then just one other very minor matter. I'm going to ask the
6 witness a number of questions regarding Exhibit D22. Because that's
7 handwritten and because it's caused some confusion in the past, the
8 Prosecution has typed up a copy of that list. With Mr. Domazet's consent,
9 perhaps we can use the typed copy rather than the handwritten copy to
10 avoid any further confusion. And I would propose that it be marked as
11 Defence Exhibit 22.1.
12 JUDGE HUNT: That has only one set of numbers, has it?
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Have you seen this, Mr. Domazet?
15 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
16 MR. GROOME: I don't believe you have, Mr. Domazet. This is -- I
17 just did this over lunch.
18 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. It's new, yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be Exhibit D22.1, and it will be
20 under seal.
21 Thank you very much, Mr. Groome.
22 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that that now be shown to the witness.
23 Q. Mr. Lindo, I'm going to ask you to look at Exhibit D22.1, and I'm
24 going to ask you a number of questions about these people. But rather
25 than us refer to them by name in court, I would ask you to refer to them,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 as I will, by their number that is just to the left of their name. Do you
2 understand that instruction, sir? Do you understand how we will use that
3 sheet of paper, D22.1, Mr. Lindo?
4 You're shaking your head no. Let me give you an example. If
5 there was a number 100 on that list and the person's name was Bozo, we
6 would refer to Bozo as VGD100. Do you understand now how we will use this
7 sheet? We need you to answer verbally for the record.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think it might be better if I explained to the
9 witness. We're not asking you to learn them off by heart.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VGD20. I'm saying 20. I don't know
11 it. I don't know him.
12 THE INTERPRETER: "VDG20, I don't know him," says the witness.
13 JUDGE HUNT: We're not getting any translation. We're still not
14 getting any translation.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear on this microphone?
16 JUDGE HUNT: Oh. Somebody has been interfering with my
17 microphone. It's on another channel.
18 Yes. Anyway, I think the witness now understands that if we want
19 to refer to VGD20, then we will refer to him by that number and not by
20 that name.
21 Do you understand that, sir?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] VGD21, I don't know him. Should I
23 go right through the list from the top down?
24 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. Counsel is going to ask you some questions.
25 If you have to refer to any of these people, what we want you to do is to
1 refer to them by the number on the left-hand side - you needn't worry
2 about the VGD; just the number - rather than by their name.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.
4 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. The first person I will ask you about, Mr. Lindo, is VGD7. Would
6 you look at the name next to VGD7. And my question for you is: Do you
7 recognise that name?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I'd ask you to look at the name next to VGD8. Do you recognise
10 that name?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I'd ask you to look at VGD9. Do you recognise that name?
13 A. I don't know this one either.
14 Q. How about VGD3?
15 A. No.
16 Q. How about VGD4?
17 A. I don't know that one either. I can tell you straight away, I
18 looked through this list briefly. I know [redacted] as a policeman
19 here from this list, so you don't have to ask me further.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the only person you know on that list, sir?
21 Don't mention any names; just the number. Is that the only person whose
22 name appears on that list that you know the name of?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think it will save us a lot of time, and
25 we'll redact the reference to the person.
1 MR. GROOME: Okay.
2 Q. So would it be fair to say that if there was other evidence before
3 the Court that some of the people, some of the names on this list which
4 you do not recognise, were paramilitaries, would it be fair to say that
5 you did not know who the paramilitaries were operating in Visegrad? Is
6 that correct?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You did not know who the paramilitaries were?
9 A. No. I just know the White Eagles, that they came. I knew about
10 them. They mistreated me a little. The man had his face blackened, and
11 then I realised they were the White Eagles. That's how I learnt who they
12 were, that they were the White Eagles. That's all I know.
13 Q. Now, after Mitar Vasiljevic stopped coming to Prelovo, would it be
14 fair to say that you rarely saw him after that point in time? Is that
16 A. I told you a moment ago that I went to Blace, and after that I
17 didn't leave for some time. And then after some time, I heard that he
18 broke his leg. I told you that. And then after that I didn't see the
20 Q. So from between the time that the kitchen moved to Blace and the
21 time that you saw Mr. Vasiljevic in a cast, on crutches, you did not see
22 him during any time between those two events; is that correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. So you are not able to tell us who during that period
25 Mr. Vasiljevic may or may not have associated with; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, once again I want to ask you a couple of questions regarding
3 something related to Prelovo. During your time in Prelovo, were you ever
4 issued a red armband to wear on your arm, above your elbow? Did anybody
5 ever give you a red armband?
6 A. No, not here on my arm, but on shoulders there were some kind of
7 insignia. I can't remember which arm. Small ribbons. I can't remember
8 the colour. Every soldier had them when they went to the front lines.
9 And he had an armband over here, as I said, but I can't remember whether
10 it was on his left or his right arm.
11 Q. Let's talk about what you had first. What you're describing you
12 had, you wore on the top of your shoulder? Is that where you indicated
13 you wore whatever it was you wore?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how would you affix that to the clothing or the uniform you
16 were wearing? Would you pin it on?
17 A. One would tie it on, on the epaulettes. I don't know how to
18 explain it to you. A tiny, little ribbon.
19 Q. And can you approximate for us about how long was this tiny,
20 little ribbon?
21 A. Something like this, so you could tie it. Ten centimetres or so.
22 You just tied it, knotted it there.
23 Q. And you said you don't recall the colour of the one that you had.
24 Did the colour change from time to time?
25 A. The colour did change, under their orders, from the orders of the
1 superiors. One day it was one colour, the next day another, the third day
2 another still.
3 Q. And do you know what the purpose of this ribbon was? Do you know
4 what the purpose was?
5 A. The purpose was to mark the troops - I don't know how to put it to
6 you - so that other troops would not interfere, that it was all one
7 Territorial Defence.
8 Q. Did the men on your crew that prepared food, would they wear the
9 same colour ribbon as the men out fighting on the front line?
10 A. I am afraid that even that I don't quite remember, whether they
11 paid attention to this. Whether they changed it regularly or not, I
12 really can't recall now.
13 Q. Now, the cook, Mr. Vaso Vojinovic, did he wear a similar tiny
14 ribbon on his epaulette? Did he wear the same thing?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you see Mr. Vojinovic with a red armband around his arm,
17 just above his elbow?
18 A. No. No.
19 Q. Now, can you tell us what it was that Mr. Vasiljevic wore?
20 A. He wore a broad red armband as a sign of the Red Cross, the
21 medical, as I said.
22 Q. Did anybody on your crew wear a similar armband with the red cross
23 on it?
24 A. Not with the red cross. For me, this red ribbon meant the Red
25 Cross. But he carried -- the doctor would wear the red cross marking the
1 medical corps. So for me, that is what the red cross meant.
2 Q. And did Mr. Vasiljevic wear this every day when he went to work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, in your last answer -- well, I want to make sure that we're
5 clear here. Was there an actual red cross on the ribbon -- I'm sorry, on
6 the armband?
7 A. I told you that the red ribbon marked that it was the Red Cross.
8 The red ribbon. And that is why I mentioned the Red Cross.
9 Q. Let me ask you again, and I'll ask you to answer with a simple
10 question or no. Was there an actual red cross on this armband?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness -- or that the
14 following Prosecution documents, document 102.1 and 102.2, I'm going to
15 ask that a copy of that be shown the witness. I would note for the
16 transcript that 102.1 is - I'd ask that it be distributed to the Court as
17 well - that 102.1 is the English version of the original B/C/S version,
18 which is 102.2.
19 I'd ask that the second page be shown the witness, the B/C/S
20 version, and that's 102.2.
21 Q. Mr. Lindo, I want to draw your attention to the last -- July of
22 2000 and ask you -- I'm sorry. Did you give a statement to
23 Mr. Tanaskovic, who is in the courtroom here today, did you give to him a
24 statement regarding your observations of certain events in Prelovo?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And at the time you gave that statement, you realised or you knew
2 that Mr. Vasiljevic had been arrested and that your statement might be
3 used in a trial of this matter; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it was your sincere wish at that time to be as truthful as
6 possible with Mr. Tanaskovic; was it not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you told Mr. Tanaskovic everything that you could recall about
9 the events that he asked you about; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I draw your attention to the last line of your statement,
12 just above the date, and ask you, does it not say: "I affirm that
13 everything I have said here is true, and I am willing to repeat it in
14 court"? I'd ask you, is that not written on the statement before you?
15 MR. GROOME: I see the witness looking at the monitor instead of
16 the statement.
17 Q. I'd ask you to look at the photocopy of the statement directly
18 down on the desk.
19 A. I see. I see.
20 Q. Do you recognise Prosecution document 102.2, the document in front
21 of you on the desk?
22 A. This one.
23 Q. Correct. That one that you've just put your finger on. Do you
24 recognise that document?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that your signature on the bottom of that document?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. And prior to signing that document, you had an opportunity to read
4 it; correct?
5 A. I don't quite remember, but I remember what I said, and I suppose
6 I signed what I said.
7 Q. And is that a photocopy of the statement that you gave to
8 Mr. Tanaskovic in July of 2000?
9 A. I beg your pardon. Yes, it is.
10 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, at this time, the Prosecution would
11 tender documents 102.1 and 102.2 into evidence.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Are you going to put it to him at some stage as an
13 inconsistent statement?
14 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that when you do so, so there can be no
16 argument about the translation, you have him read the B/C/S version that
17 he signed, and we'll get the English translation from the interpreters.
18 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: It might be a very good idea, too, if there was a
20 copy given to the interpreters.
21 MR. GROOME: They already have that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, right. Okay.
23 Mr. Domazet, any objection to the tender of those two documents?
24 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HUNT: My only concern, Mr. Groome, is that we had got a
1 whole system running of when an inconsistent statement is going to be
2 relied upon that it's agreed that that's what it says so that we don't
3 have a lot of unnecessary statements. Is it being intended solely for the
4 purpose of demonstrating an inconsistent statement?
5 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour, and I --
6 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to run your argument about it not being a
7 hearsay statement and it has some individual probative value?
8 MR. GROOME: That and -- it is both that, and it does -- I am
9 offering it as impeachment. While I think the agreement that Mr. Domazet
10 and I reached is a useful mechanism for saving time and we've employed it
11 in every case up until this, I think in this case it is more appropriate
12 that the actual document be put before the Court.
13 JUDGE HUNT: But why? Because I don't want now to have now a
14 cascade of documents when their only purpose, and their only purpose is,
15 as you say, is to impeach his evidence.
16 MR. GROOME: No. I don't think that -- that is not my only
17 purpose, Your Honour, and I assure the Court --
18 JUDGE HUNT: I can't see any other.
19 MR. GROOME: I assure the Court that there will not be a cascade
20 of documents. At this moment, I cannot see the need to introduce any
21 other document during the remainder of this case.
22 I would propose at this stage that he only read the relevant
23 portion. So I don't believe that will take very much time as well.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. If there is no objection to it, they will
25 be Exhibits P102.1 and 102.2.
1 MR. GROOME:
2 Q. Mr. Lindo, I'm going to ask you to simply read the second
3 paragraph of your statement, and in the English version, it begins with
4 the phrase "Sometime in April 1992." Can you find that paragraph and
5 please read it for us?
6 JUDGE HUNT: Not too quickly so that the interpreters can follow
8 A. "Sometime in April 1992, after the Uzice Corps had left from this
9 area, I was assigned by the competent organ, I think I said the
10 Territorial Defence, I was assigned to work in the kitchen. That was
11 organised in Prelovo near Visegrad, which is about 20 kilometres from
12 Visegrad -- from Visegrad.
13 This kitchen was organised immediately after the departure of the
14 Uzice Corps, because the people were upset, scared, and did not have food,
15 so this kitchen was organised to feed the people, to assist, at least to
16 some extent. In the kitchen I worked with Vaso Vojinovic and Mitrasin
17 Glisic, and Mitar Vasiljevic was there too, as was [redacted]. I do not
18 recall his first name. Vasiljevic was in charge of hygiene in the
19 kitchen, and the food, and so on. He was a sort of health inspector,
20 because he had an armband with a sign. It is the ribbon of the Red
21 Cross. That is what I said, not that he had a red cross on it. Here,
22 too, I said something like that. I didn't say he had a red cross; that he
23 had this five- or six-centimetre-wide armband. He wore an olive-drab
24 uniform, as I said, of the Yugoslav People's Army, and he had been issued
25 a rifle. Whether it was automatic or semi-automatic, I really cannot
1 remember now. I said that when I was giving the statement. In any case,
2 he rarely carried this weapon, but I know that one had been issued to him,
3 like all of us." Shall I go on?
4 MR. GROOME:
5 Q. That's sufficient, sir. Can I ask you: Who was it that first
6 approached you regarding giving testimony here in Court?
7 A. Who was the first to approach me?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. The attorney.
10 Q. Which attorney?
11 A. Rudomir Tanaskovic.
12 Q. Aside from your own statement, did you have an opportunity to see
13 any other statements in connection with this case?
14 A. No. I didn't know really what it was all about, whether it was so
15 necessary. I knew the person, and now I've come here to tell what
17 Q. Did you have an opportunity to either see, or see a transcript of
18 Mr. Vasiljevic's testimony in these proceedings?
19 A. No. I don't have a TV over there. We live in the village.
20 There's satellite now, and I don't have a TV set, and I work all day long,
21 from dawn to dusk. And I just come here because you called me, and I'm
22 making this statement here, too.
23 Q. Now, on your trip up here, Mr. Domazet told us yesterday that in
24 the Sarajevo airport, a person working in a coffee bar threatened you and
25 accused you of committing some crimes in Visegrad. Is that correct?
1 A. No. No. Not me.
2 Q. Can you tell us who did this person, this waiter, accuse of
3 committing crimes?
4 A. He accused - he didn't accuse - this one who was to come before
5 me. They went to have coffee, and he mentioned my brother, how they knew
6 each other. I don't know. And I said, because he was working in the
7 police, and I know him, and this one was working in the police, and then
8 this young man recognised him and asked him something, and he would
9 complain to you and his turn will come. I -- what they actually said, I
10 don't ...
11 Q. Who did this young man recognise?
12 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Domazet.
14 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid he mentioned
15 the name, which we have protected here as a witness. I don't mind the
16 witness telling you, but ...
17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we've got the document, have we not, with the
18 pseudonyms on it? He's got it.
19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Groome is asking who this
20 young man approached, this waiter approached at the Sarajevo airport.
21 This person is a witness here and he is due to appear as a protected
22 witness, and this witness here doesn't know that. That is why I would
23 suggest that we either go into private session or that he be shown the
24 name in writing, and then he can say whether that is that person.
25 JUDGE HUNT: You're talking about VGD23, I assume.
1 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, is there a piece of paper with that written on
3 it? Yes. Put the name, would you? It's Witness number 14 on the list.
4 Unfortunately, from our previous experience, I'm not sure that the witness
5 will quite understand, but we'll try.
6 Are you prepared to put the matter to him directly by the
8 MR. GROOME: Sure.
9 JUDGE HUNT: And then he can see from the piece of paper who it is
10 you're referring to.
11 MR. GROOME: Yes. That's quite acceptable.
12 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, show that to the witness, please,
13 and it will be exhibit -- it will be one of yours. What's your next
15 MR. GROOME: 105, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 Have you seen that, Mr. Domazet? Have you seen the piece of
19 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: That is Exhibit P105. It is under seal. Show it to
21 the witness, please.
22 Now, sir, counsel is going to put to you a question about somebody
23 to whom he will refer to as VGD23. The person to whom he is referring,
24 his name is on that piece of paper which the usher is showing you. Please
25 do not refer to him by that name.
1 Yes, Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME:
3 Q. Is that the person who the waiter recognised? You need to answer
4 verbally, please.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were you present when --
7 A. No.
8 Q. And was the waiter a person from Visegrad?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you know, what did the waiter accuse that witness of doing?
11 A. I don't know, because they went on to complain, so I'm not
12 familiar with the whole incident. They were up at the bar. What was
13 going on, I don't know.
14 Q. Well, you --
15 A. I can't tell you anything about that. That is why I said a moment
16 ago that the man would be coming here and he will explain everything to
18 Q. Well, did Mr. VGD23 tell you for the rest of your travels, or
19 during the rest of your travels, what it was the waiter accused him of?
20 A. No. We didn't have time for that, because we went on to the
21 station for transportation. There were seven of us. There were three or
22 four at one table, so we weren't all together. That was how the whole
23 journey evolved. So he complained to Domazet, and I know nothing more
24 about it.
25 Q. Mr. Lindo, you were given a guarantee, were you not, before you
1 came to The Hague that you would not be arrested during the time that you
2 are here? Is that correct?
3 A. No. Nobody told me anything, nor did I think about it. When
4 somebody's not guilty, I'm not afraid of anything. Why are you asking me
6 Q. Well, there have been representations made that you did so require
7 a guarantee that you would not be arrested. Is that not correct?
8 A. No.
9 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Mr. Lindo. I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?
11 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lindo, at one point, answering a question put
14 to you by Mr. Groome about some paramilitary formations, you said that you
15 only saw some people called the White Eagles and that you had some
16 problems with them. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, and that's why I said that I had seen that, and they came and
18 frightened me, and they had -- I was wearing a JNA cap, and they came with
19 their faces sooted and I didn't know what they were. And he said if I
20 don't wipe out that five-point star, he would take down my particulars.
21 Q. Judging by what they looked like or judging by the dialect they
22 were speaking, or their speech, could you judge whether they were from
23 Visegrad or from Serbia proper?
24 A. No, I wasn't able to. I don't know them and I don't know them.
25 That's all.
1 Q. Was that your only contact with people of that kind?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In your written statement, the one you gave to Mr. Tanaskovic and
4 the one you looked at and partially read a moment ago, would you take a
5 look at it again, please.
6 And in the one but last paragraph, it says, and please look to see
7 whether I'm reading it correctly:
8 "I know Vasiljevic well, and I assert that he was truly not a
9 member of any paramilitary unit and was not prone to killing and the
10 like. As far as I know, he did not do that. He did not, no."
11 Are those your words?
12 A. Yes, they are. And as I stand here, I can say and guarantee that
13 he was not in any paramilitary unit. He was with me, and I say that on --
14 I guarantee it with my life.
15 JUDGE HUNT: That was, of course, not really arising out of
16 cross-examination, but it will perhaps demonstrate to Mr. Groome why we
17 don't have documents in evidence if we can avoid them.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: "Paramilitary unit," not
19 "military unit." "Paramilitary unit."
20 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, possibly, but I feel
21 that in Mr. Groome's questioning, when he quoted and asked the witness
22 something precisely connected to that to say yes or no, the witness said,
23 "No," meaning yes, because he said he was not a member. So it appeared
24 that he was saying something else, and this was not clear to me when I saw
25 the question and answer in the transcript. That's why I asked him again,
1 to see if he stood by what he said here. I needn't have quoted it. Could
2 have just simply asked him, that is true.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, I admire you for that explanation.
4 There was no doubt in my mind when the witness answered it just exactly
5 what he meant, but still you got away with it. That's quite all right.
6 We're not rejecting the evidence.
7 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Lindo, in answering questions put to you with respect to
9 whether you knew Mitar and the schooling and so on, you said that for four
10 years, you went to school together. Did I understand you correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. After that, you weren't together. That's what I understood that
13 you said, that you weren't together any more after that. So please say if
14 so and why.
15 A. Mitar Vasiljevic, I said a moment ago, did go to the first four
16 years of school, but he was from a better-off family, and he was better at
17 school. And as you can see, he graduated from catering school, whereas I
18 was poorer, and I wasn't as bright, and I didn't have the possibility. So
19 I just did these four years and then started farming, whereas Mitar went
21 When he finished school, he went into town. He got married. He
22 got a family. So I know that very well. I know him very well as a waiter
23 later on. And so there were no problems.
24 Q. You personally, have you got more than four years of primary
25 school or not?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No. I finished four years, and I added on to that by taking some
2 part-time exams to make up for the eight years.
3 Q. Mr. Lindo, when you were answering Mr. Groome with respect to the
4 type of work you did in Prelovo, you said in a way that Mitar was some
5 sort of superior and that you would get instructions from him or he would
6 tell you to do things. Was he a superior on that same sort of basis to
7 others in addition to you?
8 A. Well, I said that he was the main person, because I was an
9 assistant worker in -- dealing with hygiene. I cleaned up. So he was in
10 charge of that and in charge of the kitchen, and of course, I saw to the
11 hygiene. I had to see that the plates were kept clean and things like
12 that. But he was the main inspector for me. He was the supervisor.
13 Q. Do you mean by that that as far as hygiene and sanitary conditions
14 were concerned, he was the person that was -- that supervised your work
15 and everything?
16 A. Yes. That's right.
17 Q. You mentioned someone with the name -- surname of [redacted] as being
18 somebody who did something around the kitchen, as you put it.
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. That person, did they go to Blace with you when you left?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. Did they stay with you in Blace? And if so, can you tell us how
24 A. He stayed in Blace, but I was reassigned. So I don't want to say
25 why, but actually, I had broken a leg, too, when I was doing guard duty in
1 Prelovo. Those were different conditions. I was transferred there.
2 Q. You were transferred later from Blace; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Whereas the man [redacted] stayed there; is that what you're saying?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Do you remember what kind of work he performed there?
7 A. Well, he was the assistant. He did the dishes. I did the
8 firewood. He went to take round -- to distribute the food with the van,
9 the same van that Obren Vojinovic drove. Supplies, yes.
10 Q. So he drove the van.
11 A. Vojinovic, Obren Vojinovic drove the van round and brought in
12 supplies for the kitchen.
13 Q. Which one do you mean?
14 A. [redacted].
15 Q. Just once again to avoid misunderstanding. [redacted] drove the van
16 in Blace and -- explain again, please.
17 A. [redacted] was transferred to the kitchen and he worked as an
18 assistance to Vaso, and then [redacted] began to drive around in the field,
19 and then he went with Obren and he was the main supplier of food to Blace.
20 Q. Very well. Now, you mentioned Obren Vojinovic, who drove a van in
21 Prelovo and went to fetch supplies.
22 A. Yes, in Prelovo, and Blace, he was transferred to. But in Blace,
23 the main one was for driving around the field, [redacted],.
24 So he was the main one in charge there, [redacted]. He transferred to
25 Blace, but Obren still kept driving. And Obren still keeps driving around
1 today, too, that van.
2 Q. So in Blace, this man [redacted], did he replace Mitar Vasiljevic
3 doing the jobs that Mitar Vasiljevic did when you were with him?
4 MR. GROOME: Objection, leading.
5 A. Well, yes, but what he was actually called -- I know they went in
6 the field, and twice a week they would bring in supplies. Whether he was
7 the main driver or whether this [redacted] person went with him, I can't say
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome.
10 MR. GROOME: I object to the form of the question.
11 JUDGE HUNT: The question, "Did he replace Vasiljevic or" -- yes.
12 I must confess that your substantial cross-examination about this man
13 named [redacted] completely went over -- the relevance of it completely went
14 over my head, but if there is some issue to be raised about it, it is a
15 leading question, I'm afraid, Mr. Domazet.
16 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, it is an absolutely critical issue in
17 this trial, and I would be happy to point that out to the Court if it
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, at some stage no doubt you will, but it
20 certainly wasn't apparent to me at the time. It's a leading question.
21 It's been answered. I don't know whether you can do very much about it,
22 Mr. Groome. You didn't object until he was well into the answer, I'm
24 Mr. Domazet, I don't know how you can go about it. You can ask
25 him in a non-leading form, perhaps, but I think that probably the value of
1 the evidence is of little importance now, or little probative value, shall
2 I say.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unlike Mr. Groome, I do
4 not consider that this is of key importance, this matter regarding the man
5 [redacted], but I wanted to ask the question because other people, and not
6 even Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic, mentioned that particular person. And that is
7 why I wanted to clear this up with the witness, because it does emanate
8 from Mr. Groome's question. And from the answer, I understand that he was
9 helping Obren Vojinovic and did what Mitar did. Perhaps that is why my
10 question could have been considered to be a leading one.
11 JUDGE HUNT: If the issue of the relationship between them is of
12 importance, as Mr. Groome says, whether it's substantial or even minor,
13 there is no doubt that the question is a leading one. Now, the problem is
14 the weight to be given to an answer to a leading question is usually very
15 little indeed. All I've done --
16 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: -- you might be able to get an answer from him which
18 is not leading which will have some value. It's rather difficult to
19 imagine how it -- how you can. The problem, of course, is that the
20 witness had well and truly started to answer it before Mr. Groome had got
21 the interpretation and was able to object to the question.
22 So I'm leaving it to you. If you want to try and get an answer
23 from the witness which has some probative value, you can try it. I should
24 warn you that the answer, if it becomes important, the answer which he has
25 given cannot be given very much weight.
1 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand, Your Honour, and
2 I don't insist on further questioning in that regard. Let me just ask the
3 witness one thing.
4 Q. The man [redacted], was he from the first days, that is to say, when
5 Mr. Mitar Vasiljevic was in Prelovo, was he there, too, or not? Was he
6 there from the start or not?
7 A. He came in the last days. He was transferred to Blace with us.
8 So he could have joined up in the kitchen, working in the kitchen, and
9 continued to distribute and transport food with Obren to Visegrad. Well,
10 he did come to get supplies in Blace. Now, at whose initiative or
11 whatever, I don't remember.
12 Q. Mr. Dikic -- I'm sorry. Mr. Lindo, just one question in that
13 regard. When you said he came in the last days before you went to Blace,
14 is that right? Is that what you mean, before you went to Blace?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Thank you. And my last question for you: After everything you
17 have told us, do you still state that Mitar Vasiljevic was the person who
18 was with you in Prelovo up until the time when you say, 10 or 15 days
19 later, he stopped coming? Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
24 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm going to ask to be permitted --
25 JUDGE HUNT: Do you do this to every witness that you've
1 cross-examined on?
2 MR. GROOME: The issue has arisen in the re --
3 JUDGE HUNT: What has?
4 MR. GROOME: The witness has mentioned that he broke his leg in
5 Blace, and I'd like to ask --
6 JUDGE HUNT: He talked about his broken leg in cross-examination.
7 MR. GROOME: He didn't say it was regarding Blace, though, Your
8 Honour. There's a general reference to a broken leg, and it would have
9 been irrelevant for me to have gone into --
10 JUDGE HUNT: How is it relevant now?
11 MR. GROOME: I want to ask him where he was treated and when he
12 broke his leg.
13 JUDGE HUNT: I'm still at a loss to know how this is relevant.
14 MR. GROOME: Depending on his answer, it may be very relevant,
15 Your Honour.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say, Mr. Domazet? Certainly he did not
18 mention the place where he broke his leg or the particular time in
19 cross-examination. Do you object to counsel for the Prosecution asking
20 any questions about it?
21 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if Mr. Groome considers
22 that the question is important for him, then I have nothing against it; of
23 course, if you allow this yourself.
24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure whether that's an answer or not. If you
25 say you do not object to him doing it because Mr. Groome thinks it's
1 important, then we, of course, will allow him to do it. If we have to
2 rule upon it, it may be a different question. I don't know.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I have no objection, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Groome.
5 Further cross-examination by Mr. Groome:
6 Q. Mr. Lindo, can you tell us where you were treated for your broken
8 A. Me? You're asking me?
9 Q. Yes. Do you remember, were you treated in the hospital, and if
10 so, which hospital?
11 A. I just said a moment ago that I had broken my leg too. I broke it
12 in the company I worked for, in 1989, and I was treated in Sarajevo.
13 Q. Did you break your leg in Blace?
14 A. No. No. When you asked me about Mitar, when he broke his leg, I
15 said I don't know, but I know what it's like when you break a leg, because
16 I've broken a leg too. That's what I said. I have nothing further to
17 add. I just said that I knew what it was like to break a leg because I
18 had broken a leg too. Do you understand me? I'm not an eyewitness or
19 anything. I just said, when you asked me whether I went up to ask him how
20 he was, where he had broken a leg, I just said that I know what it's like
21 to break a leg, and that's why I didn't ask him.
22 JUDGE HUNT: This is what appears at page 85, Mr. Groome, if
23 you're looking for it. He --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1989. 1989.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Please. Just one moment. He said, at line 12:
1 A. But actually, I had broken a leg too when I was
2 doing guard duty in Prelovo. Those were different
3 conditions. I was transferred there.
4 Q. You were transferred later from Blace; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Is that what you're thinking of?
8 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Lindo, you've just heard the Court read your testimony from
10 just a few minutes ago. Did you or did you not break your leg while you
11 were on guard duty in Prelovo?
12 A. No. No. What I said was, when the Judge asked me whether I knew
13 him when he broke his leg, and I said that I don't know when he broke his
14 leg but that I broke a leg in 1989 and I know what it feels like when you
15 break a leg. That's what I said. I don't know what else. I didn't say
16 that I was on guard duty here or there. That's what I said.
17 Q. Just one final question. If you had -- if somebody had broken
18 their leg in Prelovo, would I be correct in saying that the nearest
19 hospital, or the hospital they would have been brought to, would have been
20 Uzice hospital? Wouldn't that be correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. GROOME: Thank you.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination on that, Mr. Domazet?
24 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 Thank you, sir, for coming along to give evidence here. We're
2 very grateful to you for coming and for the evidence you've given. You
3 are now free to leave.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you please make the solemn
7 declaration which is in the document that the Court usher is showing you.
8 WITNESS: VASILIJE VOJINOVIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE HUNT: Take his headset off.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to take this off. Shall I
12 read it aloud? I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
13 truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please. Please sit down, sir.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Tanaskovic.
17 Examined by Mr. Tanaskovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojinovic, good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Would you please tell us your name, first and last.
21 A. I am Vasilije Vojinovic.
22 Q. Tell us when and where you were born.
23 A. I was born in the village of Vlasina, near Visegrad, in 1935, on
24 the 24th of April - that's what my parents told me - on Easter day, and
25 that's why they gave me the name Vasilije.
1 Q. I have to caution you to pause between my question and your
2 answer, because the interpreters can't keep up with us. So I'm saying
3 this so that the President of the Chamber need not interrupt the
5 A. I understand.
6 Q. Well, you didn't, since you didn't make a pause in answer to my
7 first question.
8 Tell me, please, where you are living now and what you do for a
9 living. What is your occupation?
10 A. I'm a cook by occupation, and I am now in the village of Blace,
11 near Visegrad. I am retired and I'm working the land.
12 Q. So you used to work as a cook and retired as such?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. And in which company?
15 A. I worked in Belgrade, in Zegrep, in the Sarajevo Zegrep, but the
16 branch office in Belgrade; headquartered in Sarajevo but with a branch
17 office in Belgrade.
18 Q. For how long did you work in that company?
19 A. I worked there for 24 years, in the same company.
20 Q. Does that mean that you lived in Belgrade during those 24 years?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Would you come to visit your native region?
23 A. Yes, I did visit, as my family were in the villages, the children
24 were at school, my wife and mother were in the village. Sometimes it
25 would be after a month, sometimes a month and a half, I would go back home
1 to visit them.
2 Q. So you would go home after a month or after a month and a half; it
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said that you are now living in the village of Blace.
6 A. Yes, now.
7 Q. And do you know Mr. Vasiljevic, Mitar?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. How do you know him?
10 A. He went to school when he was younger, and he would pass by my
11 house as he travelled from his village to the bus stop, until he
12 completed -- I assume it was his eight-year elementary school.
13 Q. Tell me: What is the name of his village?
14 A. His village is called Djurevici.
15 Q. How far is that village of Djurevici from your village?
16 A. Well, maybe three or three and a half kilometres. You go over a
18 Q. Does that mean that you knew that family, the whole Vasiljevic
20 A. I do know them, because we are not far from one another.
21 Q. Tell me, please, or rather, tell us: Have you done your military
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. That was in the former Yugoslav People's Army, was it not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And where did you do your military service?
2 A. In Pozarevac for six months, and then I was transferred to Pirot
3 on the -- to the Bulgarian border, the village of Toplje Do [phoen]. I
4 was at the guardhouse there.
5 Q. What was your speciality or what branch of the army were you?
6 Please, Mr. Vojinovic. Wait a moment and then give us your answer. Go
8 A. I was a border guard.
9 Q. Were you a cook in the army?
10 A. I was a border guard in the army, and then I went to Dimitrovgrad
11 to attend a cooking and baking course, because there was a bakery at the
12 border which was far removed from the town. So I had to complete this
13 course for a cook and baker at the same time.
14 Q. You told us a moment ago that you were a pensioner.
15 A. I am.
16 Q. When did you retire?
17 A. Well, I'm afraid I can't remember what year it was. I've forgot.
18 I am a bit nervous, so I've forgotten.
19 Q. Let me ask you a different question. Since when have you been
20 permanently residing in Blace, in your village? When did you stop working
21 in Belgrade? Wait a moment, please. Please, Vojinovic. Go on.
22 A. I have been in Blace since 1992.
23 Q. After the Uzice Corps left, there was a mobilisation. Were you
24 mobilised and by whom?
25 A. I was, by the Territorial Defence, whatever it's called. I was
1 mobilised as a cook.
2 Q. Where were you assigned to?
3 A. I was assigned to Prelovo, to the school building there.
4 Q. Would you explain what the school building contained?
5 A. It used to be the elementary school, eight-year elementary
7 Q. That is not what I meant. I was asking you what was organised in
8 that building to which you were assigned. Please wait, Mr. Vojinovic.
9 Look at the screen in front of you.
10 THE INTERPRETER: It is not switched on.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Switch it on to the transcript.
12 MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. My question was: What had been organised in that school building
14 to which you had been assigned? You can go on.
15 A. In that school building a kitchen was set up, and there were
16 refugees. This was a large hall, and there were a lot of refugees. And
17 we were given two rooms for the storage and for the kitchen, a storeroom
18 and a kitchen.
19 Q. So this kitchen, who was it meant for, or rather, who did you
20 prepare food for?
21 JUDGE HUNT: Have you some trouble in answering the question,
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid of making a mistake. We
24 prepared food there for the army, for the Territorial Defence. I can't
25 even speak it properly.
1 MR. TANASKOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Tell us, please, who was working in that kitchen, all the people
3 who were working there?
4 A. The Territorial Defence asked me to go there to be the cook, as I
5 had been a cook in the army too. And there was a Mitrasin there, Mitrasin
6 Glisic, who was cleaning. Dragisa Lindo, he helped us. He cleaned the
7 compound and brought firewood for the stoves which we cooked on. We had
8 very limited resources. And they cleaned around. And I prepared the
9 meals for the front lines.
10 Q. For the Chamber to clearly understand what you mean, what do you
11 mean when you say "lines"?
12 A. It's for the troops. The army of the Territorial Defence that was
13 on the war front, that was deployed on the front lines. And then
14 cauldrons of food were being prepared, breakfast and lunch. The dinner
15 was sometimes dry-packed rations because it was a long distance across
17 Q. You have mentioned Dragisa Lindo, Mitrasin, yourself. Was anyone
18 else there with you?
19 A. If we needed to peel potatoes, to clean the beans, they would give
20 us some other people who were unfit for going to the front line. Then
21 they would be assigned to us as necessary, when that was necessary.
22 Q. Tell us, please, who was the chief of the kitchen?
23 A. When I arrived, Mitar Vasiljevic told us what each one of us was
24 to do and how many cauldrons should be sent where and the numerical
25 composition of the troops.
1 Q. You mentioned the duties of each of these persons that you
2 mentioned. What did Mr. Vasiljevic do? What was his duty?
3 A. He provided foodstuffs, and as the kitchen was not in order, he
4 supplied us with the pots and food because this wasn't something that was
5 clean and regulated and in order. So he was with us. Sometimes he would
6 go into the field with the troops to assist them for the time that he was
7 with us.
8 Q. You said that he brought in supplies. Tell us, how did he do
10 A. He would go into town. The Territorial Defence, whatever they
11 had, they sent us. Sometimes it was cabbages, sometimes beans, sometimes
12 macaroni. The situation was bad. And what they had, what was available,
13 he brought it and we prepared it. That's how it was.
14 Q. How were those provisions brought from Visegrad or from wherever?
15 What was used? Wait a moment, Vojinovic, please. Look at the screen in
16 front of you. You can proceed.
17 A. Sumarstvo gave us a van, and they drove the food in that van. And
18 when we prepared the meals, again the same van would deliver them, deliver
19 the food.
20 Q. The van you mentioned, was it requisitioned too or mobilised?
21 A. I don't know. Well, surely it must have been requisitioned when
22 it was used to transport the food. Sometimes it had a red marking,
23 sometimes a green one. When it went into the field, they changed these
25 Q. Could you explain what markings you're referring to?
1 A. Well, I don't know how to put it. I suppose on the basis of some
2 kind of military secret, so that somebody would not intercept it.
3 Q. Mr. Vojinovic, do you know the driver of the van?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Who was it?
6 A. Obren Vojinovic. He used to work in the Sumarstvo company, and
7 the van belonged to that company.
8 Q. A moment ago, you explained what the duties were of Mr. Vasiljevic
9 and what he was doing in that kitchen. Among other things, you mentioned
10 that he procured the food. Did he do so using this van you mentioned and
11 the driver that you mentioned?
12 A. There was another van, and one would go in one direction and the
13 other in the other direction, because they couldn't make it with one van.
14 Q. Specifically, we are talking about the van with which foodstuffs
15 were transported from the Territorial Defence, as you told us. Now, which
16 van are you talking about? The one that was driven
17 by Vojinovic or some other van?
18 A. Sometimes [redacted] would drive it. That was his surname.
19 Q. What did [redacted] drive?
20 A. He drove foodstuffs like this other one. My duties were in the
21 kitchen. I didn't go out much. I don't know what people were doing
22 outside the kitchen, because I couldn't move away from the pots. The
23 firewood wasn't dry. It was difficult to cook the food, and it was my
24 duty to cook it properly for the people who spent days and nights in the
25 mountains. So I couldn't see or hear anyone or talk to anyone. I was
1 busy all the time around the stoves.
2 Q. Mr. Vojinovic, who drove the food when the kitchen was in Blace?
3 A. When the kitchen was in Blace, the driver was [redacted].
4 Q. A moment ago you said that Mr. Vasiljevic was the one who
5 appointed you specifically as the cook. Tell us: Were you issued any
6 kind of weapon, and if so, which?
7 A. I asked from the Territorial Defence that I be given a weapon
8 because I had to travel home seven kilometres during the night. My wife
9 was alone. There was a war on, and it wasn't safe, so I had to go to
10 check on her to make sure she was all right. So I carried this weapon.
11 Fortunately, I never had any problems, because it's seven kilometres, the
12 distance through the woods to my house.
13 Q. Mr. Vojinovic, would you please answer my questions, the specific
14 questions I'm asking you. My next question is: What weapon were you
15 issued, and who issued it to you?
16 A. I was given an automatic rifle from the Territorial Defence. A
17 soldier brought it to me in the kitchen. I asked him to bring it to me
18 because I was travelling at night. I was afraid. I didn't dare cross the
19 mountains on my way home unarmed.
20 Q. Tell me: How frequently would you go home from the kitchen?
21 A. Every other evening, as my wife was alone at home. She was
22 afraid. And I would come back at 3.00 or half past 3.00 a.m. so as to
23 have enough time to prepare the food.
24 JUDGE HUNT: It's 4.00, Mr. Tanaskovic. We'll adjourn now until
25 9.30 in the morning.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
3 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.