1 Wednesday, 28 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-32-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Mitar Vasiljevic.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
10 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: SLAVICA PAVLOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Domazet: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pavlovic, good morning. Mrs. Pavlovic, we
15 will resume where we broke off yesterday afternoon. If you remember, we
16 were discussing the organisation of work that you had at your department,
17 the nurses' shifts and the records you kept. So let us pick up there.
18 Having explained yesterday how the shifts worked, could you tell
19 us how you kept the records about those shifts?
20 A. You mean where we wrote down the patients, the newly admitted
22 Q. What I meant was, what entries did you make in that notebook?
23 A. When a patient comes to the ward, he brings with him the case
24 history in which the particulars have already been entered, that is, the
25 name, surname, the name of one parent, where he comes from, his ID number
1 under which he has been registered in the admissions department, because
2 -- which is the most important number because it is a reference number
3 for everything else we do, his blood count, when he goes into surgery,
4 when any tests are made. So we write down the patient's name and this ID
5 number of the patient.
6 Q. Do you write down also the room number of the patient?
7 A. Yes, we write down the room to which he has been admitted, his
8 first and last name, what the doctor who admitted him -- which tests the
9 doctor wants done, and as I said, the ID or registration number of the
11 Q. The number that you have mentioned as the registration number, is
12 that a number given to each patient individually so that during that year,
13 no one else can have the same number or can that number be accorded to
14 someone else later?
15 A. No, that is the number for that patient only. It is his
16 registration number which cannot be allotted to anyone else.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Madam, may I remind you to pause before you start
18 your answer to enable the interpreters to catch up. You came in
19 immediately after the question there, right over the translation. So
20 please remember to pause.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
22 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. It's very easy to forget. I see
23 that the screen has been put on. You'll see the typing on it. That is
24 the English translation, so that gives you a pretty good idea of where the
25 translators or the interpreters are up to. So wait for the typing to
1 finish before you answer the question.
2 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The number that you were talking about, is such a number given to
4 each patient of the general hospital regardless of which department
5 they're in? Is it a number that is applied to patients regardless of the
6 wards to which they have been admitted?
7 A. That number is given to every patient who is admitted to hospital,
8 regardless of which department he is in. So that is a number allotted to
9 that patient only.
10 Q. Where is that number attributed, in your department or somewhere
12 A. The number is attributed at the admissions department when the
13 patient is admitted, because every patient has to report to the admissions
14 if he's being hospitalised. Then his name is entered in a book that is
15 kept over there and that is when he's allotted a number. Upon admission,
17 Q. In your hospital, was there a register of patients for a
18 particular year by alphabetical order?
19 A. I don't know that because no such ledger was kept in my
21 Q. The records you mentioned, that is, the notebooks that were kept
22 by the shifts for this particular period, you have them even though it has
23 been such a long time ago?
24 A. Yes. There are many people who come to our ward needing various
25 data from us. So in agreement with the head of our department, we decided
1 to keep those notebooks for 1992 and 1993 until further notice.
2 Q. If I understand you correctly, you have kept those notebooks even
3 though you were not obliged to do so by law.
4 A. Yes, that is right. We need to safekeep those notebooks,
5 according to the laws of our country, for two years.
6 Q. You have brought with you to The Hague two such notebooks; isn't
7 that right?
8 A. Yes, I've brought them.
9 Q. I will show you now a notebook from this particular period, so
10 will you be kind enough to look at it and to look at two copies of the
11 pages that I have some questions about. So will you please look at them.
12 In view of the fact that you've brought two books, will you please
13 look which one relates to June 1992.
14 A. This is from the beginning of 1992, January, and then it continues
15 on. This is the notebook which starts out from -- these are two notebooks
16 covering all patients admitted in 1992.
17 Q. Would you please read out the dates for the first book and the
18 second book.
19 A. The first book is from the 9th of January, 1992.
20 Q. Until what date? Until what date?
21 A. Until the 9th of October -- I'm sorry, the 7th. The 9th of July,
22 1992. Then the second book starts from the 10th of July, 1992.
23 Q. There was an error in your answer and in the transcript. The
24 dates for the first book and the second.
25 A. The first book ended with the 10th of July, 1992, with the third
1 shift, and the second book begins with the second shift of the 10th of
2 July, 1992. And it goes on until the 22nd of January, 1993.
3 Q. Will you please look at the first book as it relates to the
4 relevant period, the one which covered the period up to the 10th of July,
5 1992, and will you please tell us whether that is the notebook that was
6 kept by nurses?
7 A. Yes, that is that notebook.
8 Q. Will you please look at the page for the 14th of June, 1992. And
9 to make it easier for you, I will provide copies of that page for you and
10 the Court. I've already provided the interpreters with copies, and there
11 are sufficient copies here for everyone. Mr. Groome was served this copy
12 two days ago.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Is there a translation of it?
14 MR. DOMAZET: I think that Mr. Groome had a translation. For two
15 days I couldn't have a translation, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Is this one of the four pages you said were the only
17 ones left?
18 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Yes. Just first of --
19 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got a translation, Mr. Groome, even a rough
21 MR. GROOME: I have a rough translation, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: You proceed, Mr. Domazet. Thank you.
23 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pavlovic, have you found this page?
25 A. Yes, I have.
1 Q. Will you please read out what it says in that book of yours
2 regarding the third shift on the 14th of June, 1992? Will you please read
3 it out slowly, and then I'll have some questions for you?
4 A. The third shift, the 14th/15th of June, 1992. In the course of
5 the shift, Mitar Vasiljevic, room 413, was admitted. He's being
6 administered the prescribed therapy. The rest of it has been distributed
7 on time. Mulahmetovic in room 414 has a temperature of 38.8 degrees
8 Celsius. He has received Novalgetol injection.
9 For Filipovic, 413, blood test has to be made of glucemia and
10 hematocrit at 0500 hours. Patients present, 54. The shift is handed over
11 by Nada, Milena, and Damir.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, it may assist us, I think, if we knew
13 what is regarded as the usual duty hours of the third shift.
14 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pavlovic, I think you spoke about that
16 yesterday, but could you please tell us once again how the shifts were
17 organised, that is, how long they lasted?
18 A. You mean the third shift, or all shifts?
19 Q. All shifts, madam.
20 A. The first shift starts at 6.00 a.m. and ends at 1.00 p.m. The
21 second shift begins at 1.00 p.m. and goes on until 8.00 p.m. The third
22 shift starts at 8.00 p.m. and ends the next day at 6.00 a.m.
23 Q. Was this kind of schedule always applied or did it change?
24 A. Always, ever since I have been working at the orthopaedics
1 Q. Would the schedule be identical or similar in other departments?
2 Since you have only been working at the orthopaedic department, do you
3 know that?
4 A. I cannot be certain, but I think that is how shifts are organised
5 in other departments as well.
6 Q. So, Mrs. Pavlovic, what you just read out was about the third
7 shift on the night of the 14th to the 15th of June, 1992, the shift that
8 started at 8.00 p.m. on the 14th and ended at 6.00 a.m. on the 15th; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. According to what you read out, Mitar Vasiljevic was admitted and
12 put up in room 413. I'd like to know what is this note made about patient
13 Filipovic? What does it mean?
14 A. Patient Filipovic was admitted on the same day but in the course
15 of the second shift. I think he was taken to the surgery immediately and
16 the anaesthesiologist requested certain tests to be made, and that is why
17 it was the duty of the third shift to write down everything that needed to
18 be done in the course of the next day.
19 Q. Does that mean that this Filipovic was operated before the third
20 shift started?
21 A. Yes, that is what it means.
22 Q. You told us that this patient Filipovic was admitted on the 14th
23 of June but in the second shift. Is this something that is noted in this
25 A. Yes. Here, I have found it. I have it noted down in the
1 notebook. The second shift, the 14th of June, 1992.
2 Q. Will you please tell us, the words at the end of this paragraph,
3 shift handed over and three names. Who are those people, will you tell
4 us, please? What were they doing in those days?
5 A. You mean my colleagues who handed over the third shift?
6 Q. Yes, Mrs. Pavlovic.
7 A. My colleague Nada is no longer working in our department. In the
8 meantime, she fell ill. She's a psychiatric patient. Milena has left.
9 She never contacted us. She's working somewhere abroad. And Damir, a
10 man, he's still in our department.
11 Q. So these are nurses and Damir is a medical technician. Would that
12 be right?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. From your notebook we see that there are entries only about the
15 second and third shifts; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that is right.
17 Q. I think you explained yesterday why there is no reference to the
18 first shift in this book.
19 A. Should I repeat the explanation?
20 Q. No. It's not necessary, madam. Mrs. Pavlovic, looking through
21 this notebook, the original one that you brought with you, there is an
22 entry for the third shift between the 4th and the 5th of July, 1992, where
23 the name of Mitar Vasiljevic appears. Could you find that page, please?
24 A. I've found it.
25 Q. I'd like to give you a photostat of that page.
1 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I also have copies for the Court.
2 Could I ask the usher for his assistance.
3 JUDGE HUNT: What do you want done with the page which we've
4 already dealt with?
5 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I would like it to be entered into
6 evidence, but I was going to suggest at the end the tendering of the book
7 and these photostats.
8 JUDGE HUNT: All right then. As long as we don't forget it. Do
9 you have a translation of it there, Mr. Groome? I'm sorry to be asking you
10 all the time for this.
11 MR. DOMAZET: You have in the other page of this translation from
12 Mr. Groome, yes.
13 JUDGE HUNT: The one that we've already got, is it? Thank you.
14 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HUNT: We still haven't got these documents that you've just
16 handed up. Can we have a copy of this document, please?
17 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, have you looked at that page and the photocopy of
19 that page? So will you please read out what has been noted in your book
20 for the third shift between the 4th and the 5th of July, 1992?
21 A. Third shift, between the 4th and the 5th of July, 1992. There are
22 34 patients. No new admissions. No one had a high temperature. Therapy
23 has been distributed, instruments sterilised. There are three
24 thermometers. The shift is handed over by Nada, Vesko and Buba. PS:
25 Mitar Vasiljevic needs to be cautioned about his behaviour (singing
1 loudly, taking other people's belongings).
2 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, next to the name of Mitar Vasiljevic there is a
3 number. Will you look, please? What does that number mean?
4 A. It is the number of the room in which he was, room 411.
5 Q. Does that mean, Mrs. Pavlovic, that he was moved from one room to
6 another during his hospitalisation since on the previous page that you
7 read out for the 14th of June, I think you said that he was admitted to
8 room 413?
9 A. Yes, he was admitted to 413, and probably because there wasn't
10 room in 411 on that day or that night, because it is a room that is
11 supervised by Dr. Dusko Jovicevic, rooms 411 and 412. And as soon as
12 there was a vacant bed, he was immediately transferred to room 411, and he
13 remained in that room for as long as he stayed at our department.
14 Q. When you said there were rooms of a certain doctor, in this case
15 Dr. Jovicevic, what does that mean? Does that mean that they were
16 patients that were operated by that doctor, that were cared by that
17 doctor, or something else?
18 A. In our department, every doctor has rooms that he supervises, and
19 we admit patients to those rooms that were admitted by that doctor,
20 regardless of whether they are for surgery or not. In the event that
21 there is no room in his rooms, then it is possible, it is admitted --
22 allowed to admit a patient to the room supervised by another doctor.
23 Q. Does that mean, Mrs. Pavlovic, that Dr. Jovicevic was the doctor
24 who admitted Mitar Vasiljevic to the orthopaedics department on the 14th
25 of June, 1992?
1 A. Yes. He was on duty that day.
2 Q. When you looked at the book a moment ago and looking at it again,
3 who wrote these notes? Because the shift was handed over by three
4 individuals. Was it always one person who wrote down the comments that
5 took place during a shift?
6 A. No. They would agree -- the nurses would agree amongst
7 themselves. Do you want me to tell you who wrote this entry, this
8 addition for the third shift between the 4th and 5th of July? Would you
9 like me to tell you who wrote that in?
10 Q. If you can recognise the handwriting, then I'd like you to tell me
11 both for the 4th and 5th of July and later on for the 14th and 15th --
12 between the 14th and 15th of June.
13 A. Well, I am quite certain that the handwriting of the third shift
14 between the 4th and 5th of July, 1992 was that of my colleague Buba. That
15 is to say Buba wrote the first bit, the first portion, and the addition,
16 the additional portion, was written by Nada.
17 Q. When you say the first part, do you mean the part written in the
18 Cyrillic script, up to the signature of those handing over the shift,
19 Nada, Vesko and Buba?
20 A. Yes, that is the portion I mean.
21 Q. And when you say the second part, the second part is written in
22 the Latin script, is it not?
23 A. Yes, it is. That's right.
24 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, is your handwriting on any of these shift reports?
25 I'm not thinking about these two but generally in the book itself.
1 A. No. I don't write into this book. I don't put entries into this
2 book because I only do first shifts. So my handwriting won't be found in
3 the book anywhere because I only do first shifts.
4 Q. Does that mean that at that period of time you were never on duty
5 in a second or third shift?
6 A. That's right. That's what it means. From 1989 up until the
7 present day, I have always worked on the first shift, only first shifts.
8 Q. In addition to this book, Mrs. Pavlovic, you have brought another
9 book, and you said that it continues on from the 10th of July of that same
10 year, and in that book I found no relevant information in view of the
11 period, but why did you bring in that book?
12 A. Well, I thought that it was a good idea to bring books in for the
13 whole year. If we're talking about and discussing that particular year, I
14 thought it would be a good idea for me to bring in the books for the whole
16 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Pavlovic, at your department was there special
17 records or special -- a special book on operations, the operations
18 performed by doctors at your department? Did you have a separate book for
20 A. Yes, of course, and that is the most important book of the
21 department, and entries must be made for each patient if surgical
22 intervention of any kind, no matter how small, was made. So all entries
23 for all patients are made if any surgical intervention was made, whether
24 it was surgery, the administration of a plaster cast, anything at all in
25 the operations theatre.
1 Q. The book that refers to that period you have also brought to The
2 Hague; is that right?
3 A. Yes, I have. And we are duty-bound by the laws of our country to
4 store the book for ten years, keep the book for ten years. So the book is
5 still a very important book which I must take back with me when I leave.
6 Q. Would you take a look to see if this is the book. And I'm also
7 going to ask you to look at the date of the 15th of June, 1992. But first
8 take a look at the book itself and tell us is that the book that you have
9 been describing and what dates the entries range from and the patients
11 A. Yes, that is the book. In this book, entries are made of patients
12 from the 16th of January, 1991, and the book goes on until the 10th of
13 August, 1992.
14 Q. Would you read out the title of the book from page 1. What is the
15 book called?
16 A. "Protocol on operations or persons operated."
17 Q. Does that book relate exclusively to the orthopaedics department
18 of the Uzice general hospital?
19 A. Yes, just the orthopaedic department.
20 Q. Would you now find the page on which entries were made for the
21 15th of June, 1992? And a photocopy of that page I am now going to hand
22 over for the Court. I have already given copies in the original language
23 to the interpreters.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome, have you got a translation? Thank you.
25 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I'll just point out that to read
1 this translation you need to hold the pages side by side like this.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, you have found the page, have you not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you please slowly read out what it says from number 283?
7 And it says "Information about the patient." That is written in Cyrillic.
8 Would you read out everything it says and what the columns are, what the
9 different columns are. Would you please do that for us now.
10 A. The ordinal number is 283, and the personal
11 identification-registration number is 10004. The date is the 14th of
12 June, 1992. It says: "Person operated: Filipovic Dragan from Visegrad,"
13 and his age -- date of birth, rather, is 1962.
14 And then next after that it's under the ordinal number 284.
15 Q. Just a moment, please. Would you please read on until the end.
16 We don't need to have the clinical diagnosis but just the type of
17 operation and the surgeon who operated. Read to the end of the column,
19 A. We have clinical diagnosis, that's the next column, the type of
20 operation, which was performed by the surgeon, a description of what was
21 actually done during the operation, the operating procedure, surgical
22 procedure, what anaesthetic was administered. In this case it was a local
23 anaesthetic. That's what it says. And the surgeon. And where it says,
24 "Remarks," the instruments technician and the plaster technician, person
25 who is in charge of instruments and plaster and their names.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, do you recognise which surgeon this was according
2 to what is written here?
3 A. I can read it out. I can't -- it says Dr. Jovicevic. That's what
4 it says under "surgeon" or "operator."
5 Q. And the instruments nurse and plaster cast technician, are those
6 people from your own department or from some other department who do that
7 kind of work?
8 A. The plaster cast technician is from our department and the
9 instruments nurse is from the operations theatre. She has nothing to do
10 with our department. She is in the operating theatre department.
11 Q. Thank you. When you read out the date in the third column, was
12 that the date of the operation itself?
13 A. Yes, that's right. It is the date when the surgery took place,
14 when the operation took place.
15 Q. Could you tell us what was the next operation and what day? What
16 is the next operation according to the book and on what date did that
18 A. The next -- the next operation was under the ordinal number of
19 284. The patient's identification-registration number was 10012, and the
20 operation was performed on the 15th of June, 1992.
21 Do you want me to read out the name?
22 Q. Yes, please, the name and the surgeon and the other technicians.
23 A. The patient was Popovic Mirjana. She was from Ivancica. Her date
24 of birth, the year she was born was 1945. The operation was performed by
25 Dr. Gordic.
1 Q. And finally who attended the operation, what it says at the end?
2 A. Milovan and Dragana. Dragana was the instruments technician and
3 Milovan was the plaster cast technician.
4 Q. Thank you. Would you read out the next number, please, 284, but
5 everything, from beginning to end, please.
6 A. Ordinal number 285 and the personal registration number was
7 10015. The date was the 15th of June, 1992. The patient operated on was
8 Vasiljevic Mitar from Visegrad, born in 1954. The operation was performed
9 by Dr. Gordic.
10 Q. I asked you, Mrs. Pavlovic, if you would, to read everything it
11 says for this case, the clinical diagnosis and everything else, please.
12 A. Clinical diagnosis, Fractura cruris laternus sinister. The
13 operation that was performed, the type of operation, type of surgery,
14 extensio, transcalcanearis laternus sinister.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately, Mr. Domazet, most of the Latin terms
16 are not being translated, which is understandable. The interpreters are
17 not Latin speakers, but is there any way of getting a layman's
18 interpretation of some of those medical terms?
19 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Perhaps one of the next witnesses, a doctor, will
21 be able to explain to us better, but, madam, with your knowledge and
22 experience and being a nurse yourself, I hope you will be able to
23 translate and explain the clinical diagnosis and the operation performed
24 because the names are written down in Latin. So please, madam, if you are
25 able to so would you go ahead and tell us. Let us look at the clinical
1 diagnosis. Let's take that first.
2 A. I would like to leave that to the doctors from my department. They
3 can do that better than me, if that is possible.
4 JUDGE HUNT: That's fair enough.
5 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Would you tell me next, under ordinal number 6, in the column 6,
7 what it says as to the operative findings.
8 A. You mean 286?
9 Q. No. You were reading ordinal number 285, but just go along the
10 columns and you come to column 6 which is the operative findings under
11 number 6.
12 A. A local anaesthetic was administered and a Kirschner pin is passed
13 through -- was passed through the heel bone where, on the same bone, we
14 place an extension apparatus with a weight of 7 kilogrammes.
15 Q. Is it 7? Would you look at the digits again, please.
16 A. Ah, yes. It says 7.5 kilogrammes. I think it says 7.5
18 Q. Yes. It's not legible enough. This brings us to column 7, Mrs.
19 Pavlovic, and what does it say there?
20 A. It says "Local," which means that the anaesthesia administered was
21 a local one.
22 Q. And, finally, column 13 with the remarks.
23 A. We didn't say who the surgeon was. It was Dr. Gordic. And in the
24 remarks column it says, "Dragana," who was the instruments technician, a
1 Q. Was it the same instruments technician that assisted in the
2 previous operation and in the next one, 286?
3 A. Yes. You see, there were three operations that were performed.
4 Q. However, Mrs. Pavlovic, would this particular patient, Vasiljevic
5 Mitar, it does not say Milovan as being the plaster cast technician. Does
6 that mean that he did not take part or that no plaster cast was
7 administered in this particular type of surgery?
8 A. A plaster cast is not administered when we place an extension, but
9 as I say, our doctors will explain that better. But yes, a plaster cast
10 was not administered on that occasion.
11 Q. Thank you. Would you read out the next number on this page, 286,
12 and the basic information that you have before you.
13 A. Ordinal number 286. Personal registration-identification number
14 is 9133. The date was the 15th of June, 1992. The patient's name was
15 Bugarin Rajko. He was from Priboj, born 1946.
16 Q. As far as that particular patient is concerned, could you just
17 read out the name of the surgeon and who attended the surgeon during the
19 A. The surgeon was Dr. Gordic, and attending the operation were
20 Dragana and Milovan.
21 Q. And would you read out the last column in this book. The number
22 is 287, and the information which -- the same as you did for the previous
24 A. The ordinal number is 287. The personal
25 identification-registration number was 10179. The date was the 16th of
1 June, 1992. The patient operated on was Moljevic, father's name Dusan,
2 and patient's first name Andrija, from Visegrad, born 1959. The surgeon
3 was Dr. Moljevic. In the remarks column, number 15, it says Tanja
5 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Pavlovic.
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Before we continue, let me just
7 note, Your Honour, that in the English translation it does not state that
8 the surgeon's name was written in. Perhaps it wasn't legible enough.
9 It's written in the Cyrillic. Or the name under 13, "remarks", which was
10 also written in the Cyrillic, but they are to be found in the photocopy
11 that I gave to Mr. Groome and the Court.
12 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, before I ask you something else about that page -
13 so please stay with that page - would you tell me about the first number
14 and patient, 283, Filipovic Dragan. The information relating to him, what
15 script were they written in, Cyrillic or the Latin script?
16 A. You mean in this book here?
17 Q. Yes, 283, Filipovic Dragan, Visegrad. What script was the entry
18 written in, the name, surname, and the address? Was that Cyrillic or
20 A. It is written in the Cyrillic script.
21 Q. And what about 284, is that Cyrillic or Latin?
22 A. 284 is written in the Latin script.
23 Q. 285, Vasiljevic Mitar?
24 A. 285, Latin script.
25 Q. 286?
1 A. 286, Latin script.
2 Q. And finally, 287, please.
3 A. 287, Cyrillic script.
4 Q. According to this book and what you read out, this first number
5 written in the Cyrillic script, 283, was done on the 14th of June, 1992,
6 was it not?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. And numbers 284, 285, and 286, Popovic, Vasiljevic and Bugarin,
9 all three operations are dated the 15th of June, 1992; is that right? And
10 their names have been filled in, entered in in the Latin script; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The operation under number 287 of the 16th of June, 1992, the
14 entries there were in Cyrillic; is that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. I am now interested, Mrs. Pavlovic, in 284, 285, and 286, the
17 operations performed on the 15th of June, 1992. Can you recognise the
18 handwriting of the person who made the entries? Do you know who made the
19 entries, the name and surname of the patient, and the first three columns?
20 A. I can recognise 284, 285, and 286. That was written by my head
21 nurse, the head nurse of the department, the ward, Mrs. Branka Djordjevic
22 is her name. I recognised the handwriting because she has a
23 characteristic and easily recognisable handwriting.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should now like to
1 tender, first of all, the shift book which Mrs. Pavlovic has brought with
2 her and which relates to the relevant period, material time, that is to
3 say, the 14th of June, 1992, be admitted into evidence. I think it would
4 be D31.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Groome?
6 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibit D31. That includes the English
9 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Then the surgical book?
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I should also like to tender that
12 into evidence, but I'm afraid of -- bearing in mind what the witness said
13 that this is an indispensable book for her department, although I think
14 the time frame is expiring.
15 Q. So I'd like to know, Mrs. Pavlovic, if that second book, the
16 surgical book, could we keep the original?
17 A. Would you ask my doctors from my department, please, about that? I
18 can leave this notebook and I'll be happy to do so, but us must ask the
19 doctors from my department about the surgical book. I cannot give an
21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, you remember that we discussed in
22 relation to the other books that a photocopy would be made of them by
23 somebody in the registry so that the hospital would have access to the
24 photocopy whilst the original is put through whatever tests it has to be
25 put through. Perhaps we can leave that to the doctors, but that's what I
1 suggest should be done here because the Defence case clearly is one which
2 -- I'm sorry, the Prosecution case is clearly one which creates a
3 suspicion about the documents, these documents, and they are entitled to
4 have them tested since they've only just been produced. But for the
5 moment, it will be an exhibit. Whether it is exhibited or not, I see no
6 problem with that.
7 What about you, Mr. Groome?
8 MR. GROOME: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: The book and the English translations will be Exhibit
11 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. That should be D32. I'm sorry about
14 MR. DOMAZET: Yes, D32. Yes. Could the witness please be shown
15 Exhibit P138, and in the B/C/S version, please.
16 Q. Will you please look at the first page. Have you had time to look
17 at the document? Could you tell us what this document is that you have in
18 front of you?
19 A. It is a case history, the document with which the patient comes to
20 our department from the admissions department.
21 Q. Is that the case history that you told us about when the patient
22 is given his own personal registration number?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where has it been entered in this document, and would you read it
25 out, please?
1 A. Under ordinal number 2, at the top right-hand corner, it says
2 Maticni Broj or registration number, and I see it's been corrected. It's
3 10000. Now, whether it is 14 or 15, I can't tell. That is the last
5 Q. So it says 10014 or 10015; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. You mean that it is difficult to tell whether it is 4 or 5. The
8 last digit has been corrected and one can't tell which it is, in fact?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Will you tell me what is written in the left-hand corner of the
11 case history? Is it customary to enter that there, that is, not in the
12 actual forms and columns?
13 A. Are you referring to the VP number 985 and SUP informed?
14 Q. All. Everything that it says there.
15 A. It says, "VP 985, SUP informed. Injury on the front in Visegrad."
16 And below that, "05 General hospital in Uzice, orthopedics department."
17 Q. Let us focus for a minute on the numbers you just read out. When
18 it says -- there were some numbers, and it says "SUP informed." Could you
19 tell us who would enter that information and for what reason?
20 A. As far as I know, this is entered upon arrival at the hospital,
21 upon admission. Now, why it is entered and who does it, I don't know.
22 Q. You mean about who has been informed that the patient has been
24 A. Yes. I don't know that.
25 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, will you look below that? It says, "On the
1 battlefront in Visegrad." What does the term "battlefront" mean to you?
2 A. Well, you see, all the people who came from that area at that
3 time, I noticed that on their case history this was written. Now, why
4 that is so, I don't know.
5 Q. When you said that all the people coming from the area, the area
6 of Visegrad, they were the most frequent patients that came to your
7 hospital, that it was noted that they were coming from the battlefront, is
8 that what you mean?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you mean regardless of the injuries they had or how those
11 injuries were inflicted?
12 A. Mr. Domazet, when a patient is, I don't ask him whether he waged
13 war or not. For me, he's a patient. I don't have to think about those
14 things at all.
15 Q. Let me finish, please. Perhaps we didn't understand one another.
16 This note from the battlefront in Visegrad was to be found on all case
17 histories for patients coming from that area, regardless of their
18 diagnosis, is that what you're telling us?
19 A. Yes, I assume so. Believe me, for my work that is irrelevant.
20 It's something that doesn't interest me and I paid no attention to it.
21 Q. Will you please look at the other entries and tell us which of
22 those entries were made upon admission and which later on in your ward?
23 Of course, if you can remember and on the basis of what you know from
25 A. I'll tell you the form the case history has when it reaches us and
1 what is filled in upon admission.
2 Q. Yes. Tell us what the regular procedure is and then you'll tell
3 us whether this is an example of that.
4 A. We receive the case history, as I have said, with the registration
5 number entered, which is the number that is the most important for us, the
6 date of admission, which is also important, especially for my surgical
7 department because of the blood type, because that is attached to this
8 number. These are the two pieces of information we attach the greatest
9 significance to, in addition to the first and last name of the patient.
10 Then the name of the patient, the name of the father of the
11 patient, what kind of insurance he has, then also the entry regarding
12 spouse, that is if he's married. If not, then the name of the parent.
13 The address and the date of birth, you see it here. And that's it. That
14 is what is important for us and those are the entries that are made upon
16 Sometimes it happens that they fill in the work he does and the
17 occupation, but not on every case history. Sometimes they omit it. They
18 leave it out.
19 Q. Under entry 8, it says "Category of health insurance." Is that
20 filled in?
21 A. We see underlined here "Military post." I don't know whether that
22 is intentional or unintentional.
23 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Pavlovic, whether the people who were brought
24 from Visegrad and the treatment you gave them, was that paid for and who
25 had to pay for it?
1 A. I don't know that. I am really not familiar with that. That was
2 something I never had any interest in.
3 Q. Do you know the rest of the first page, the entries number 10 and
4 11, who fills those in and when? Do you know or what is the customary
5 procedure, for -- if you're not certain about this particular case.
6 A. It is customary for the doctor to make the entries under 10 and
7 11. That is the customary procedure. But occasionally, we get a patient
8 with number 10 filled in and sometimes, believe me, we get a patient with
9 the wrong diagnosis from the admissions, but not always. So if you're
10 asking me about the details. In that case, our doctor would correct it.
11 So in any event, these entries are made by doctors.
12 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, when you say the doctor corrects it, you mean if
13 the doctor establishes that the original, initial diagnosis was not
14 correct, and then under 11 he writes the proper diagnosis, the main cause
15 being hospitalisation or final diagnosis? Do you know perhaps what entry
16 11, that is, the number at the end means, the number 8232 or 823.2
18 A. I don't know what it means.
19 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, will you look at entry number 12 and the diagnosis
20 there? Was that entry made in your department?
21 A. I am unable to say because, as I said a moment ago, these are
22 entries made by doctors.
23 Q. And for entry 15, where it says "Date" and "Type of operation,"
24 who makes that entry and what does it say in this particular case history?
25 A. This entry is also made by the doctor, only by doctors. Shall I
1 read out what it says?
2 Q. Yes, please do.
3 A. There's a date and the type of operation. Extensio
4 transcalcanearis on the 15th of June, 1992. And then again in that same
5 line, the 15th of June, 1992, I know that it is the duty of each doctor to
6 make this entry on the case history.
7 Q. Are these the data that you read out from the surgical book a
8 moment ago about surgeries performed?
9 A. Yes, precisely those data regarding the type of operation and when
10 it was performed.
11 Q. Let us go back for a moment once again to the top of this page. If
12 you can see above entry number 1, there seem to be some initials, I think
13 in Cyrillic, two letters. Could you tell us, on the basis your own
14 knowledge, what these initials are?
15 A. We always write down the initials of the doctor who admitted the
16 patient. As soon as he arrives at the department, we place the initials
17 there. So in this case this is in Cyrillic, D and J, Dr. Dusko Jovicevic.
18 Q. Would you please tell us to make sure whether this D is in
19 Cyrillic or Latin script?
20 A. I find that it is Cyrillic.
21 Q. And in the top left-hand corner there's a number that seems to
22 have been corrected. Could you remember what that number indicated?
23 A. The number stands for the number of the room, because the patient,
24 as I told you earlier on reading out from the book, the patient was first
25 admitted to room 413, and as soon as there was a vacancy in Dr. Dusko
1 Jovicevic's room, 411, he was transferred to it, and that is why it has
2 been made. This is not something very unusual. It happens very often.
3 Q. So you recognise this number as the number of the room. It was
4 first 413 and then the 3 was corrected to a 1 to make it 411.
5 Will you please turn the page and look at the page where the
6 interventions have been entered? Do you recognise the names or the
7 signatures of the people working there? I think it is the third or fourth
9 What has been entered on that page, Mrs. Pavlovic?
10 A. I can recognise the handwriting of my current head of department,
11 Dr. Djordje Stojkovic. And on the 5th of July, 1992, at 9.00, 9.00 a.m.,
12 he requested a psychiatric examination. So upon finishing his regular
13 round on the 5th of July, when I had to tell him what had happened during
14 the night between the 4th and 5th, I had to brief him on events in the
15 night, and that the patient, Mitar Vasiljevic, was worse than ever that
16 night. That night, none of the patients could sleep. My colleague had
17 noted that down in the notebook. He harassed the staff and the patients,
18 and he demanded that a psychiatrist come to the ward.
19 Q. You just said that "he" demanded. Who demanded a psychiatrist?
20 A. Dr. Stojkovic requested, because Dr. Stojkovic was the doctor
21 making the rounds that morning. And in our institution, it is only a
22 doctor that can ask for another doctor to come.
23 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, you read this out and made your comments. That is
24 the first note made on the 5th of July at 9.00 a.m. Could you identify
25 the next note? Could you read it out and explain if you know what it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 refers to?
2 A. I can read it out. But at 2200 hours I wasn't there, but I'll
3 read it out. On the 5th of July, 1992, at 2200 hours, and again it's Dr.
4 Stojkovic, so I assume he was on duty that day. The requested examination
5 by a neuropsychiatrist has not been performed. The patient continues to
6 be restless, refusing to take his therapy, insulting the staff and
7 patients. Dr. Stojkovic, typed out, and then his signature over there.
8 It means that the psychiatrist did not come for the requested
9 consultation. Why, I don't know.
10 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, you said you would read this out, because at the
11 time you were not present. Does that mean that you were present on the
12 5th of July at 9.00 a.m. that you spoke about a moment ago?
13 A. The nurse in charge of that area has to brief the doctor as to
14 what had happened regarding each patient during the night.
15 Q. Yes, but my question was, when you read this out and made your
16 comments, I had the impression that you were referring to what you
17 personally remember about the incident. Am I right? Were you telling us
18 about what you, yourself, recollect?
19 A. I remember that patient, and I will remember him for a long time.
20 That is why I'm here. If I didn't remember, I wouldn't have come.
21 Q. So is it customary for you to make the rounds together with the
22 doctors every morning?
23 A. Yes, every morning when I'm working, if I'm not on annual leave or
24 on sick leave.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Is that a convenient time, Mr. Domazet?
1 MR. DOMAZET: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 11.30.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet.
6 MR. DOMAZET: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pavlovic, let's resume after the break. We
8 were talking about the case history and what you read out from it, and we
9 heard your comments. Now, you still have the exhibit in front of you, and
10 please take a look at the third page now, page 3.
11 You explained to us about the 5th of July and the event that took
12 place that morning, and you read out what Dr. Stojkovic noted down that
13 evening about that. Now, as there is no further indication that there was
14 anything of note on the 6th of July, what can that mean? Can you comment?
15 A. Well, there's nothing here. Nothing was written here. I assume
16 that the patient got his discharge sheet and that he had completed his
17 treatment, because I see that on the 7th of July, 1992, the patient -- it
18 says: "The patient's discharge sheet was written out yesterday but the
19 patient did not go home."
20 Do you want me to read what it says to the end?
21 Q. No, thank you. There's no need. It's already in evidence.
22 After that date, is there anything else that was filled in by your
24 A. The next piece of information which was written, I assume, by the
25 doctor who came to -- for consultation, the psychiatrist. And finally,
1 there is Dr. Moljevic's report of the 17th of July, 1992, where a
2 consultation was held or, rather, an examination.
3 Q. It says, and please correct me if I'm wrong, it says, "Remark,
4 control in one month's time, Tuesday mornings." Is that what it says?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you explain from your practice why it says "Tuesday morning,"
7 a set day of the week?
8 A. I think that it would be best if you asked the doctors that. They
9 would be able to explain that better, because each of them had a specific
10 day when they were working in outpatients department, and each doctor was
11 assigned a day of the week. I assume the doctor knows why he wrote that
12 down. He will be able to tell you.
13 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about, work in the outpatients
14 department. Does it mean that doctors from the department worked in the
15 outpatients department as well, and if so, how much time did they spend?
16 A. Yes, of course. Doctors from the department would work in the
17 outpatients department, and each doctor had his own set day of the week
18 when he would examine patients in the specialists' outpatients department.
19 Q. Were the same nurses working in the outpatients department as
20 worked in the department itself or were they different nurses?
21 A. Other nurses worked in the outpatients department. They work only
22 in the outpatients. They were outpatient nurses. They don't come to the
23 department and ward.
24 Q. You, personally, at that time never worked in the outpatients
25 department in the course of that year, did you? That would emerge from
1 what you have explained to us so far.
2 A. That's right. I never, ever worked in the outpatients department.
3 Q. Would you look at the second page of the discharge sheet. There
4 are some entries written in the first half of the page and then the 15th
5 of June and two other dates. Can you tell us something with respect to
6 those first entries? Who makes those entries underneath the remarks,
7 where it says "Urgent case"? Have you found that? "Emergency case."
8 A. That information is entered by the doctor who received the patient
9 upon admission, the same day that the patient is admitted. So he fills in
10 the anamnesis. It is only the doctor that does that.
11 Q. And in this case, in this particular case, looking at the
12 signature, that would have been Dr. Jovicevic; is that right?
13 A. It says "Dr. Jovicevic, ORP, orthopaedist."
14 Q. On that same page, with respect to the operation, would you take a
15 look and see if that is data about the surgery itself that you read out
16 from the surgical book?
17 A. Yes, that's right. And those entries are made by the doctor who
18 performed the operation. So those are the facts I read out to you earlier
20 Q. The date is the 15th of June, 1992. That is the date of surgery;
21 is that right? And what does the number represent?
22 A. The number is the surgical protocol number, and we write that
23 number in, in our surgical book. Operations protocol.
24 Q. Do you know, Mrs. Pavlovic, who made the other entries where it
25 says the 8th of July and the 15th of July, those two entries, 8.7 and
2 A. I don't know, but I can assume, judging from what I am able to see
3 here, I think it was the psychiatrist. Which one, I can't say.
4 Q. Thank you. That's all regarding that exhibit. But could we just
5 go back to the operations book or surgical book that we were looking at,
6 and number 285, when Mitar Vasiljevic was operated on. Have you got the
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. I think that you're still looking at the case history. Not the
10 case history now, we've finished with that. I'm referring to the
11 photocopy from the surgical book.
12 A. I haven't got it here. It's not on the table.
13 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] It is Exhibit D32. Would the usher
14 please hand the witness D32. The book itself would be best, the original
15 book, please, so that you can take a look at the page that the operation
16 was recorded on.
17 A. I've found it. Here it is.
18 Q. You have it? You also have a case history that you were looking
19 at a moment ago. Would you compare the two, please, now?
20 In the surgical book, and the ordinal number is 285, look at that,
22 A. Yes, I've found it.
23 Q. It says "Case history," and you read it out, and that's what it
24 says in the book. The number is 10015. Now, on the case history, that is
25 to say P138, Exhibit P138, in the upper corner you will see the number
1 that you identified as being 10014 or 10015; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's right. I can't quite determine the last digit. But
3 as this was written in by my head nurse, I assume -- in the surgical book,
4 what happens usually is she rings up to check. So it is the number that
5 she entered into the surgical book.
6 Q. Just a moment, please. 10015 is the number that has been entered,
7 but my question for you is the following: If the number was the number
8 that you, yourself, couldn't read, whether it was 10014 or 10015, if that
9 is the right -- if it was 10014, if the correct number should have been
10 10014, is the mistake then in the entry with respect to the number of the
11 case history?
12 A. If the case history number is in fact 10014 and it says here
13 10015, then that is a mistake when the entry was made, and I can't know
14 that now.
15 Q. Tell me this: The numbers, generally speaking, are they assigned
16 in the order in which people come in or in some other way?
17 A. Those numbers are only assigned according to the order in which
18 they -- the patients were received, admitted.
19 Q. Have a look at that same page and look at patient 283, the number
20 -- the ordinal number 283, and read his case history.
21 A. His case history number is 10004. The patient's name is Filipovic
23 Q. Which means, does it, that he was admitted before Mitar
24 Vasiljevic? Is that right?
25 A. Yes, of course. He was admitted quite a bit earlier.
1 Q. Is the same thing true of 824, ordinal number 824?
2 A. Yes. Patient 284 was admitted before Mr. Vasiljevic, too.
3 Q. Yes, Mrs. Pavlovic. And a patient that was operated on the
4 following day had a higher number. Perhaps it's a little unusual, but
5 perhaps you can tell us. The patient under 286, who was operated the same
6 day after Mitar Vasiljevic, has a number which is 9133, which is
7 considerably lower, considerably lower number. Is that usual and what
8 does it signify?
9 A. Yes. He was admitted to hospital quite a lot before the rest.
10 Now, why he was operated on only on that day, the doctor will best be able
11 to explain that to you.
12 Q. Thank you, madam, for your answer. I won't be asking you to look
13 at the documents any more.
14 I should now like to ask you to tell me something that you started
15 talking about when you spoke about the rounds on the 5th of July. Will
16 you tell me everything you remember, to the best of your recollections,
17 about Mitar Vasiljevic for the period that you have been studying the
18 documents? I think you've already told us, but let me ask you again, do
19 you remember him as a patient?
20 A. Yes, I do. I remember him very well. I remember the first
21 morning when I met him best, because of -- that is to say, when I asked
22 him how he was injured, I remember his specific answer, and it stuck in my
23 mind once and for all. I thought he was joking at one point when he first
24 said it.
25 Q. And what did he tell you? What did he say?
1 A. I asked the gentleman how he had injured himself, and he said, "My
2 horse slipped and I broke a leg." And that was the first time that we had
3 a patient, at least I had a patient, where a horse slipped and the man
4 broke his leg.
5 Q. So that was your first encounter. And if I understand you
6 correctly, that was how you remembered him. Can you tell me anything else
7 that you recall before the period of the 5th of July? Before the 5th of
8 July, anything you remember before that, what his behaviour was like,
9 whether he had any problems or whether you had any problems with him?
10 A. Well, his behaviour -- by his behaviour, he drew attention to
11 himself while he was lying in bed at that time. I think all the patients
12 in the ward knew him and all the staff working on the ward because his
13 behaviour was rather unusual.
14 Q. When you say, Mrs. Pavlovic, that you think all the people on the
15 ward knew him, patients and staff alike, can you tell us a little more
16 about how they knew him?
17 A. Well, I came to realise that when I would come on duty in the
18 morning and I found a picture of a horse drawn on an ordinary piece of
19 paper stuck up above his bed, and he would say, "A patient from the other
20 wing drew that for me and stuck it up there," which means that even
21 patients from different wings would come in and do things like that.
22 Q. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that patients would
23 draw horses and stick it up on the wall by his bed; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right. We never had a case like that before or after.
25 People never did things like that. So the man did draw people's
1 attention to himself and through incidents of that kind.
2 Q. Do you happen to remember how he reacted to that?
3 A. Well, I can't remember that.
4 Q. Did you personally happen to see a drawing like that? Did you
5 find a drawing like that?
6 A. Yes. I took it down two or three times from the wall because I
7 couldn't allow the doctor to come in on his rounds and see something like
8 that. It was absolutely not allowed. So I took it off and threw it away.
9 Yes, I did see it. And it is my job to prepare the dormitory, the room,
10 and the patients at 7.30 for the doctors' rounds. So I had to do things
11 like that, too, see that everything was neat and tidy.
12 Q. From what you say, this was repeated at least several times; is
13 that right? Because you said that you took a drawing of that kind off the
14 wall several times. Am I right in understanding that?
15 A. Yes. That's just how it was.
16 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, do you remember what the drawing was apart from the
17 horse? You said that there was a drawing of a horse. Were the drawings
18 different? Was anything else drawn in addition to the horse or were they
19 always the -- was it always the same drawing?
20 A. Sir, I didn't study the drawings, nor was I interested in them. I
21 just saw the horse. The horse was the dominant object, and I just took
22 the papers down and threw them away. I can't say what else was on the
23 pieces of paper.
24 Q. When you say, Mrs. Pavlovic, that it was your impression and
25 knowledge that practically every patient knew of him, do you mean that
1 everybody knew about that particular fact and incident, that he was
2 injured by falling off a horse?
3 A. I assume so from the drawings of horses that they did. That is my
4 assumption. That is what I assume. Why otherwise would they draw a horse
5 except if he loved horses, liked horses especially? I don't know.
6 Q. Was Mr. Vasiljevic able to get out of bed? Was he mobile while he
7 was on your ward?
8 A. Mr. Vasiljevic was not able to move from the moment the operation
9 was conducted. He was 100 per cent immobile. What I want to say is he
10 couldn't get out of bed at all.
11 Q. Would you explain to us brief why, why that was?
12 A. Well, he had been operated on and he was practically tied to his
13 bed, because it's the kind of surgery which does not allow him to get up
14 out of bed at all. He had weights hanging over -- from his leg, a
15 Kirschner pin was stuck into his heel, so he wasn't able to get up.
16 Q. Were they the weights, the weights that -- the weight of which you
17 read out from the surgical book, the book of operations? You read out
18 some weight. Were those the weights that weighted his leg?
19 A. Yes, that's right. They were the weights.
20 Q. Does that mean, Mrs. Pavlovic, that his leg -- that to his leg
21 were affixed weights weighing approximately 7.5 kilogrammes and that that
22 was one of the reasons that he was immobile, unable to move?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Therefore, he was a patient who could not and did not go out of
25 his room throughout his stay in the orthopaedics ward; is that right?
1 Have I understood that correctly?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. When you say that other patients knew about that, patients from
4 other rooms, and that even some patients from another wing drew the
5 drawings that were drawn, does that mean that the other patients who were
6 mobile, who were able to move around, could go into his room, the room he
7 was lying in?
8 A. I assume they could, yes. Patients who had an arm injury or hand
9 injury, they were able to move around. And days are very long in
10 hospital, you know, sir. Once the regular first shift work was over, that
11 is the time that they would come to his room, during the second and third
13 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, when you read portions from the case history and
14 the note made by Dr. Stojkovic of the 5th of July, you said that that was
15 noted down during his rounds and that he entered this into this case
17 Now, as we're talking about the patients' behaviour, could you
18 tell us, please, what you remember from that particular medical round,
19 doctors' round, when all this happened, when the incident happened that
20 Dr. Stojkovic made a note of in the case history.
21 A. Well, when my -- the colleague was taking over and when some
22 incident occurred like the one connected to Mr. Vasiljevic, then the nurse
23 must inform the doctor when he comes in on his rounds, and I informed him.
24 And as you can see, the doctor immediately asked for a consultation with a
1 Q. Did you prepare the visits, the doctors' rounds, or were there
2 other nurses who were in charge of that, too?
3 A. The morning preparation for the rounds were done by all sisters on
4 duty that morning. We would attend to the patients in our morning rounds.
5 Now, who was on duty that morning with me, I just can't remember now.
6 Q. And who looks through the notebook to see what the previous shift,
7 what the two previous shifts, that is to say, the second shift and third
8 shift made a note of? Do the nurses look through those remarks or do the
9 doctors do so?
10 A. Well, the notebook that we were looking at a moment ago was
11 examined by the head nurse of the ward, the responsible sisters, and it
12 can also be reviewed by any of other colleagues who are interested in it,
13 nurses, that is. Sometimes the head of the department would look through
14 the notebook, but that's not the rule. It is our book. It is the
15 notebook that we nurses keep. It is a nurse notebook.
16 Q. Tell me, please, this incident of the 5th of July is something you
17 described for us, but do you remember that Mitar Vasiljevic acted in a
18 similar manner even before this date? Do you happen to remember that?
19 A. Well, you see, I said a moment ago, that night he outstripped
20 himself. All the time, he acted strangely. But he is one of many who
21 acted in an unusual manner in those days.
22 Q. When you said he outdid himself, you mean he overdid it, that he
23 had acted similarly before but not to such an extent?
24 A. He really went too far and it was recorded.
25 Q. To the extent to which you were able to see him, I mean, did you
1 see him every day, of course on the days that you were working?
2 A. Which was working, I would see him, of course. He was always in
3 the same bed, in the same place, while he was hospitalised in the
4 orthopedics ward.
5 Q. Because you said that he was there all the time, the people who
6 were with him in the same room, did they change? Do you remember how big
7 the room was, how many beds there were in it?
8 A. I remember because all our rooms were the same then and they are
9 today. We openly have rooms with four beds. So there were four beds. We
10 don't have larger rooms than that. There is a room with three beds, two
11 or three rooms with three beds, and that's it.
12 Q. So the largest room is a room with four beds, and he was in one of
13 those rooms?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember a patient who was with him in the same room and
16 that he had some problems with Mitar Vasiljevic?
17 A. I remember that night, the night we have mentioned, that is the
18 5th. That night he was with a patient of Muslim ethnicity and faith, but
19 only that night, as far as I know. And then it was noted that he harassed
20 the patient. He harassed the nurses. I can even remember the name of
21 that patient because it's a patient who was lying in our ward for four
22 months or roughly so. Approximately that long.
23 Q. Could you tell us who that was and why he was lying in your ward?
24 A. The patient's name was Selim Lepenica, whose leg had been
25 amputated, and he was Dr. Dusko Jovicevic's patient. I know that he
1 stayed in our hospital until he found some appropriate accommodation
3 Q. According to your best recollection, was he there before Mitar
4 Vasiljevic came to the hospital?
5 A. Yes, much earlier. And he stayed on after Mitar left our ward.
6 He was a patient who was hospitalised for a long time and that is why I
7 remember him. And he very often calls us. I'm sorry, I didn't bring his
8 letters. He writes to us from Munich. Quite recently, he wrote from
9 Sarajevo. He thanks us for our care.
10 Q. Just a moment, please. I gather from what you've said that the
11 patient was being treated before Mitar Vasiljevic arrived and that he left
12 the hospital after Mitar Vasiljevic was moved. How serious were his
13 injuries and what kind of care was he given, considering such a long
14 period of hospitalisation?
15 A. All I can say is that he was immobile regarding the work that we
16 nurses did. I can tell you about that. As for his injuries, you must ask
17 the doctors. I just know that he was immobile, with amputated leg. How
18 serious the injury was, you must ask the doctors.
19 Q. In the course of his stay, and I am referring to the patient
20 Lepenica, did he complain about your personal treatment of him or the
21 treatment he was given by the other nurses?
22 A. I can tell you what he would say to me every day when I
23 administered therapy or dressed his wounds. He always expressed his
24 gratitude and blessed me. As for others, I can only assume, but he writes
25 to us quite frequently. He sends his greetings. He wishes us all the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 best, that sort of thing.
2 Q. When you said, "He blessed me personally every day," could you say
3 exactly which words he used, what exactly you meant?
4 A. He was extremely grateful, to put it in a nutshell. He was
5 grateful for my attitude towards him, and I think very fact that he spent
6 such a long time with us is indicative. And all of us nurses did our best
7 to make his stay as comfortable as possible, because after all, he was
8 there for a long time.
9 Q. When you say, Mrs. Pavlovic, that you later received letters from
10 Munich and Sarajevo from him, did you personally, or the other nurses, I
11 mean, was it addressed to somebody in person or all of you?
12 A. It was addressed to the orthopaedics ward, to all of us. And it
13 always -- the letter would say that he remembered us fondly, he sends his
14 greetings, and so on.
15 Q. Are you quite certain that there were no words of criticism in
16 those letters but that on the contrary, he continued to express his
17 gratitude in those letters?
18 A. I read those letters, as did my colleagues, and never did he utter
19 a word of criticism of anyone on the ward. I remember that he cried when
20 he was leaving. Now, whether he was crying because he had nowhere to go
21 or maybe he was crying because he was taking his leave of us, but I saw
22 his tears.
23 Q. Did he have to leave the hospital then? Do you know that?
24 A. I don't know that. I know that he left and went to Novi Pazar.
25 Before that, a discharge document had been written out. He had left the
1 ward and then came back an hour or two later, something like that, if I
2 remember correctly, so that we readmitted him to the ward. He said he
3 didn't like the place where he was supposed to go.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Domazet, where is this leading us? What's it got
5 to do with this case?
6 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you remember, Mr.
7 Groome was relying on this patient, and he made some questions based on a
8 statement of that patient given to the investigator of the Prosecution and
9 MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I wanted to learn from this witness how
10 much she can remember about this patient, because in those statements, he
11 said some very nasty things about this particular witness and other
12 nurses. So I wanted to check whether they had any problems with that
13 patient at all. And I am almost through on this subject. I have two more
14 questions about this with your leave, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you know what's in the statement, we don't, but
16 the only bit that was raised, as I understand it, was what this witness --
17 I'm sorry, this patient was alleged to have said about your client, not
18 about this witness. But if you say this is a general -- that there was
19 some general attack which is inconsistent with the subsequent behaviour,
20 you can proceed.
21 You've got to realise we have no idea what's in this document.
22 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. Thank
24 Q. My last two questions in that connection: Mrs. Pavlovic, would
25 you be surprised to learn that the person you have mentioned said some
1 very nasty things about you and the other nurses in a statement he made
2 and regarding the treatment he was given? Would you be surprised?
3 A. Of course I would be surprised. I would be shocked. That would
4 be a better word.
5 Q. Just one more question. Do you know, was it possible for the
6 wounded Serbs from the seventh floor of your hospital to come to his room?
7 A. We don't have a seventh floor in the hospital. My hospital only
8 has six floors. On the sixth floor is dedicated to child surgery. It is
9 a department that was, until recently, even inaccessible for the
10 children's parents. Parents were not allowed to see them while they were
11 lying in that ward. So there's no seventh floor.
12 Q. And what about the fifth floor?
13 A. On the fifth floor is the ophthalmological department, the eye
14 department. That is one wing, and the other is the ear, nose and throat
15 department. The fourth floor is the department where I work.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pavlovic. I have no further questions for this
17 witness, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Groome:
21 Q. Thank you, Your Honour. My name is Dermot Groome. I'm going to
22 ask you a few questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
23 A. Yes, please do.
24 Q. I just want to make or clarify a few issues. The records that you
25 have brought to us today, none of them are in your own hand; is that
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. And you -- your name is not on any of the records either; correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Now, you said that this book for the second and third shift, it
6 was kept approximately seven or eight years beyond when it was legally
7 required to be kept. Can you tell us where the book was kept?
8 A. The book is kept in the room where the medicines are kept. We
9 have a large cupboard, and we still have enough room to keep those books
10 for another five years, I think.
11 Q. And during the shifts when therapies are given, is this room
12 accessible to nurses?
13 A. The nurses are in that room. Mostly that is where the nurses are
14 always. It is the nurses' room. Not the doctors' room but the nurses'
16 Q. Would a doctor, if he needed to get some medicine, would he have
17 access to that room as well?
18 A. Yes, of course. Of course. They come to that room, just as we go
19 to their room when necessary.
20 Q. Now, you've -- just again to clarify. You were not present when
21 Mr. Vasiljevic was brought into Uzice hospital; is that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. You have no personal knowledge of the precise time he was brought
24 into that hospital?
25 A. No. No. I just know that he arrived during the third shift.
1 Q. And I believe you told us that the third shift, on this particular
2 day, would have gone from 2000 hours on the 14th to 600 hours on the 15th;
4 A. That is correct. Not just that day, but always. That is how long
5 the shift lasts always, always.
6 Q. But you can tell us about when Mr. Vasiljevic actually entered
7 Uzice hospital is that some point between the 2000 hours on the 14th and
8 600 hours on the 15th, that sometime during that period he was brought
9 into the hospital; correct?
10 A. I have to correct you, because if he had arrived after 2400 hours,
11 on the case history it would have said the 15th of June, 1992, instead of
12 the 14th. I hope you understand what I'm saying. So it's quite certain
13 that he arrived before 2400 hours, because on the case history we see that
14 he was admitted on the 14th. So he arrived before 2400 hours. If he had
15 arrived during the third shift, after 2400 hours, then on the case history
16 the date would be the 15th of June, 1992.
17 Q. Let us put aside the case history for a minute. I have a number
18 of questions I'd like to ask you about that. I just want to confine
19 ourselves to the records kept by your department, the shift report. And
20 isn't my statement correct, just looking at the documents kept by the
21 staff who worked with you in the orthopaedic ward, that all we can say
22 from looking at those records is that he entered the hospital on the third
23 shift sometime between 2000 hours on the 14th to 600 hours on the 15th?
24 Is that not correct?
25 A. I have to repeat once again. That is correct, but it is also
1 correct that he must have arrived before 2400 hours because the date on
2 the case history would not be the 14th. I don't know if I'm making myself
3 quite clear.
4 Q. You are, and let me clarify in this way: Taking the two books
5 together, taking the case history and the shift report from your ward, it
6 would seem or we would deduce from that that he arrived at some point
7 after 2000 hours on the 14th but before 2400 hours; correct?
8 A. Yes, quite so. Exactly.
9 Q. Now --
10 A. So he arrived in the period between 2000 and 2400 hours.
11 Q. Now, the shift book that is maintained in your department, just
12 looking through it, let me ask you, am I correct in saying that the
13 following items are usually noted in the shift book: One would be
14 admissions to the ward; the second would be surgeries that are performed
15 on patients; the third item would be the total number of patients present;
16 the fourth item would be the number of thermometers, for whatever reason;
17 and then the last item of information ordinarily recorded would be
18 whatever tests are conducted on patients? Am I correct in saying that
19 that is the type of information that is recorded on the shift books?
20 A. Yes. And I would just add, if something unusual happens. I said
21 a moment ago I would be glad to leave you the book and you can look
22 through it and see all kinds of things written there, that the
23 anaesthesiologist came for consultation, or didn't come, that
24 such-and-such a patient was febrile, that he vomited. These are the
25 things that we have to pass on to the doctor in the morning, just as in
1 the case of Mr. Vasiljevic, who behaved in such a way that night that no
2 one could sleep among the patients in the hospital, that he harassed the
3 people around him, the patients, the nurses. These are the sort of things
4 that we note down in that book in addition to the most important ones, how
5 many patients are present, who was admitted. That has to be entered.
6 That is obligatory. Have you understood what I'm saying?
7 Q. Yes, ma'am. Let me ask you about unusual happenings. Can I take
8 it from that then that the unusual activity or behaviours of Mr.
9 Vasiljevic, that if we take time and look through this shift book, we
10 should be able to find any record of the unusual behaviour that he engaged
11 in? Is that not correct?
12 A. You can't find anything but the note for that night, the night of
13 the 4th to the 5th of July. But then I can tell you what we discussed
14 amongst ourselves, what my fellow nurses would pass on to us. But until
15 that point in time, he wasn't a threat to anyone in my ward. Because it's
16 not just the intelligent ones who break their legs and arms. There are
17 many people like that. And we're used to tolerating such unusual
18 behaviour, because when somebody who is a strong and healthy man and then
19 breaks a leg or an arm, his behaviour changes because it affects him. And
20 he was not the only one, you see.
21 Q. And was that your impression of Mr. Vasiljevic, that he was a
22 strong and healthy man who was having a poor reaction to having broken his
24 A. No, no, no. From the very beginning, I realised that something
25 was wrong with him, but he was not the first one to be like that.
1 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, in preparation for your testimony here today, did
2 you review all of the dates in the shift book from the 14th of June up
3 until the time that Mr. Vasiljevic was discharged from your ward? Did you
4 review all of the entries for those days?
5 A. I think I did, yes.
6 Q. So when you tell us that there are no entries before the -- I
7 believe the 4th or the 5th of July, that's based on your review of the
8 shift book, D31?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Now, I'd ask that --
11 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask the witness to look at a number of
12 documents and perhaps I can just give the numbers now: D31, D32 and P138,
13 as well as P137. The first one I will use is D31.
14 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, just a question on the shifts. Am I correct in
15 concluding from your description of the shifts that the first shift was a
16 seven-hour shift, the second shift was a seven-hour shift, and that the
17 third shift was a ten-hour shift; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, correct. Quite.
19 Q. And can you explain to us why is it that the third shift is three
20 hours longer than the other two shifts?
21 A. I cannot explain that to you. You must ask somebody who fixed
22 such working hours. And these were determined by somebody far further up
23 than me, I assume the director of the hospital. We just have to observe
24 those working hours.
25 Q. Now, on the third -- I'm sorry. If you would take a look at the
1 15th of June. It appears that a nurse by the name of Ljubinko worked on
2 the second shift on the 15th as well as the third shift.
3 A. Would you repeat your question, please?
4 Q. Is it true that a nurse by the name of Ljubinko worked both on the
5 second shift of the 15th and the third shift of the 15th?
6 A. Yes. He's a man, the plaster technician. He no longer works in
7 our ward but he used to work there then. But if you look through the
8 whole notebook, you will see that they often work for 24 hours, the
9 plaster technicians. Not a nurse. She can't stand to work 24 hours. You
10 will rarely see that. But the plaster technicians will. You know, there
11 are few of us. There was a war on. And even today, it happens that they
12 have to work a 24-hour shift.
13 Q. Now --
14 A. That is permitted. That is permitted by our head of department.
15 That is up to an internal arrangement within the department. It is
16 permitted if somebody's willing to do it.
17 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, I have not seen the second shift on the 14th. Can
18 you tell us, did any personnel work both on the second shift and the third
19 shift of the 14th?
20 A. Yes. But they didn't sign their names.
21 Q. And how do you know? If they did not sign their name, how do you
22 know that the same personnel worked on two shifts on that day?
23 A. You mean that day? We were talking about the 15th a moment ago
24 and you asked me about Ljubinko, who did the second and third shift.
25 Q. What I'm asking you now is can you compare who worked the second
1 shift on the 14th and who worked on the third shift on the 14th and did
2 any of the same people work the two shifts on that day?
3 A. I can't tell you who did the seconds shift. They didn't put down
4 their names. But you must know that that year was a year where we worked
5 extremely hard. I can tell you now, out of the 25 nurses working at the
6 time, only 6 remained in my ward. So you make your own conclusions as to
7 how hard it was to work in those days.
8 Q. No one is accusing you or any of the other nurses of anything
9 improper. I'm just trying to find out who was working. Is there an entry
10 or the second shift on the 14th?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now --
13 A. The patients admitted have been registered. The whole text of the
14 handover and takeover has been noted but they forgot to write their names.
15 If you had asked me then, I would be able to tell you who was working, but
16 I can't tell you now, nor can I recognise this handwriting.
17 Q. In the ordinary course of the procedure on the ward, are these
18 notes made at the change of the shift, that is, just before the nurses
19 leave and turn the patients over to the next shift?
20 A. That is always done at the end of the shift, at the end.
21 Q. Now --
22 A. The patients are counted and so on.
23 Q. Now, on the third shift of the 14th to the 15th, there is no
24 mention of Mr. Vasiljevic being sent for surgery at that time; is that
1 A. No.
2 Q. And --
3 A. He was admitted during the third shift, which means we were
4 informed that he had been admitted and which room he had been put up in.
5 Q. So can we conclude from that that the surgery that was performed
6 on his leg was not performed before 6.00 on the morning of the 15th?
7 A. [No translation]
8 Q. I'm sorry, if you can speak a little bit louder. I don't think
9 they picked up your answer.
10 A. Of course. The operation was performed on the 15th, as it says in
11 the surgical book. The patient was admitted. We were informed about
12 that, and that's it.
13 Q. Now, you've mentioned a number of doctors being involved in the
14 care of Mr. Vasiljevic: Dr. Jovicevic, Dr. Stojkovic, and Dr. Moljevic;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Mr. Vasiljevic was admitted by Dr. Jovicevic who was on duty on
17 that particular day.
18 Q. And the doctors, do they have the same shifts as the nurses, the
19 shifts that you've told us about?
20 A. No. No. No. The doctors work first shifts, and they have days
21 when they're on duty. When they're on duty, then they're on duty 24 hours
22 in the hospital, without interruption.
23 Q. Now, on that case history that you've told us about, you said that
24 Dr. Jovicevic would have entered the initial entry regarding Mr.
25 Vasiljevic. Does that mean that he actually typed up that entry or would
1 he have given a note to a secretary to type up for him?
2 A. The nurse at my -- a nurse at my department never types out an
3 anamnesis. That can only be done by the doctor who admitted the patient
4 or a younger doctor, that is to say, a trainee who was training for a
6 Q. So the note in the medical record was either typed by Dr.
7 Jovicevic or one of -- a trainee working under him; correct?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 Q. Do you recall what, if any, or who, if any, trainees were assigned
10 to the orthopaedic ward on this day or this period?
11 A. Yes, I remember, of course. Dr. Gordic, Vladimir Gordic is his
12 name, and Dr. Ivan Jovanovic. They were doing their specialist training
13 at that time, the younger doctors.
14 Q. Now, Dr. Stojkovic, can you explain to us where he fits in
15 regarding the care of Mr. Vasiljevic? He seems to be the person who's
16 made the most notes in the case history.
17 A. When Mr. Vasiljevic was hospitalised in our department, Dr.
18 Jovicevic was the director of the hospital. And I must say that he had a
19 lot of responsibilities and that his colleagues very often would do the
20 rounds instead of him. And it seems that Dr. Stojkovic would be the one
21 to do that most often. You can see that from the case history.
22 Q. Now --
23 A. And of course, he is the head of our department now at present.
24 Dr. Stojkovic is the head of our department.
25 Q. Now, would it be the custom that the doctor who makes the rounds
1 and sees the patient on a daily basis, that it would be that doctor who
2 would decide when the patient was well enough to go home? Is that true?
3 A. You will have to ask the doctors that. I can't tell you anything
4 about that.
5 Q. Well, let me ask you. In your experience on the ward, did you
6 ever see cases where the doctor who was seeing the patient every day was
7 not the doctor who made the decision to discharge the patient? Did you
8 ever see any cases like that?
9 A. I don't understand your question, and I would prefer not to answer
10 it. I think you will get a better answer from the doctors. It's not my
11 job, you know. My job is to care for the patients, to see that he is
12 given therapy on time, that he gets the care and attention that he needs,
13 that I prepare him for surgery, that kind of thing.
14 Q. I'm not asking you any questions outside of your expertise. I'm
15 just asking you what the practice was on the ward, and the question is --
16 it was rather simple. Just is the doctor who treats the patient the same
17 doctor who discharges him or are they different doctors, in your
19 A. Well, please believe me when I say I understand what you're asking
20 me, but I can't say on the basis of my experience off the bat just like
21 that. You must understand me. It is up to them. They decide these
22 things, or whether they decide those things, that's their affair. I don't
23 know that. It's outside my --
24 Q. Let me ask you about Dr. Moljevic. Was he a trainee at this point
25 in time or was he a fully fledged doctor on the orthopaedic ward?
1 A. I think -- I don't think. I'm certain he was a specialist,
2 orthopaedic surgeon.
3 Q. Now, we've heard testimony in this trial that upon arriving at the
4 hospital, Mr. Vasiljevic was not admitted by the admitting doctor but, in
5 fact, asked somebody to contact Dr. Moljevic, and it was Dr. Moljevic who
6 both admitted him to the hospital and directly admitted him to the
7 orthopaedic ward. Now, my question for you is: If that were true, would
8 you expect to have seen Dr. Moljevic write the initial note that we now
9 have attributed to Dr. Jovicevic?
10 A. I must say that I hear this for the first time, but the fact that
11 the patient lay in Dr. Jovicevic's room, well, I thought that Dr.
12 Jovicevic admitted him. I had no need to go into that. I knew that he
13 was Dr. Jovicevic's patient. That's all I knew. I knew nothing beyond
14 that. If he were Dr. Moljevic's patient, he would be lying in the other
15 wing of my department. There are two wings, quite separate, so that --
16 Q. Well, can you describe for us, when a patient arrives at the
17 hospital, how is it decided whose patient he will be?
18 A. That's very easy. The doctor who is on duty that particular day,
19 that's whose he would be. So just the doctor on duty that day, the
20 patient is his. That's what it was like then and that's what it's like
21 now. Nothing has changed in that respect.
22 Q. Now, you said that the doctors work on the first shift, that's
23 6.00 to 1.00 or 1300 hours, and then it's -- from that period on, it's
24 simply the doctor who is on duty who is responsible; is that correct?
25 A. That's correct, yes. Precisely that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And so we know that on the 14th, in the evening hours of the 14th,
2 there was only one doctor on duty at the time; correct?
3 A. On my department, yes, just one.
4 Q. So it seems from the records that we have here that that one
5 doctor would either have to be Dr. Jovicevic or Dr. Moljevic but not both;
7 A. I know that the patient was Dr. Jovicevic's patient because he was
8 on duty. As to Dr. Moljevic, he will be able to explain that to you
9 better than me. He was Dr. Jovicevic's patient.
10 Q. But my question for you is, in the evening of the 14th, according
11 to ordinary practice, only one of those two doctors would have been on
12 duty; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And --
15 A. But you must realise that it was wartime and that there was
16 another team at the admissions department and that Dr. Moljevic and the
17 other doctors were probably written up on that team. So possibly he might
18 have been in that triage team. That is the only way I can link the two
19 up, that he happened to be there, that Dr. Moljevic happened to be there
20 as well.
21 Q. I'm just asking --
22 JUDGE HUNT: Can we just find out what that means, the triage
24 MR. GROOME:
25 Q. Can you please describe what a triage team in the admissions
1 department is?
2 A. That's what the team was called, the team that was set up at that
3 particular time, wartime, during the war. I heard them called that. It
4 was reception, admission, triage, emergency service. There were
5 orthopaedic -- made up of orthopaedic surgeons and instrument technicians,
6 because you didn't know how many patients would be coming in in the day or
7 night. It was an emergency team.
8 Q. Let me give you a definition of a triage unit and does it agree
9 with your recollection of what a triage unit did. The triage unit is to
10 identify which patients are in need of most critical care of the number of
11 patients who might come in at one time. They prioritise the patients
12 according to their need for medical treatment. Would that be correct?
13 A. I really don't know because I don't work at the reception area and
14 admission area. Dr. Moljevic is the best man to ask. He will be able to
15 explain that to you. Nor was I a member of the team.
16 Q. Of your personal knowledge, do you know that Dr. Moljevic was
17 actually working on the triage unit on this day?
18 A. I don't know that. I can't know that. Nor is it my duty to know
19 that. It's quite a separate service. It has nothing to do with the ward,
20 my work on the ward.
21 Q. Do you know from your own personal knowledge whether during this
22 period Dr. Moljevic, in fact, did have to fulfil duties on the triage
23 unit? Do you know that for a fact or is that something that you're
24 concluding based on the information I've provided you?
25 A. No, no. I think that he talked about it once and that I heard him
1 saying that, that he was a member of that reception-admissions-triage
3 Q. Do you recall when it was that you heard him talk about this?
4 A. No. I can't remember. I'm very sorry, but I just can't remember.
5 He was a young orthopaedist, and the others, too. You know, all the
6 doctors from the different branches of surgery were in those
7 reception-admission-triage teams or groups.
8 Q. Now, I believe you told us in response to a question by Mr.
9 Domazet that a discharge sheet was drawn up for Mr. Vasiljevic on the 7th
10 of July. Is that correct?
11 A. I would have to have a look again, because a lot of time has gone
12 by since then.
13 Q. And would the case history help you with that?
14 A. Of course it would. I would see it written down in the case
16 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness be shown P138.
17 Q. I draw your attention to the note by Dr. Stojkovic on the 7th of
18 July. Can we conclude from that note that on the 6th of July a discharge
19 order was made out for the patient?
20 A. We can conclude that it was written on the 6th but on the 7th,
21 too. The 7th of July was a holiday, a national holiday in our country. It
22 is the day when only the duty -- people on duty work, not the whole --
23 Q. Well, is a person ordinarily discharged on the day that the
24 discharge order is made out?
25 A. Usually. Usually, he is discharged, yes, but there are cases when
1 they don't leave, when they can't ensure transport for the patient or
2 other things. Very frequently, patients stay on for a couple of days or
3 they don't want to go. They don't want to leave. We have cases like that
4 too. So ...
5 Q. Now, if you read on in that note, the next sentence says: "He did
6 not go home." And my question to you is, is that a reference to him
7 refusing to go home after being discharged or him being unable to go home?
8 If you can tell us.
9 A. Well, I can tell you that if the patient was discharged to go home
10 and received a plaster cast, so everyone, when he receives a plaster cast
11 one day, he goes home the next. That is the rule. But as to this
12 patient, you will have to ask the doctor, once again, who wrote this down.
13 I'm sure he'll be able to tell you, give you an answer.
14 Q. And we also see on the 7th that the police were called as well.
15 Is that not correct?
16 A. Well, I'm reading the same thing you're reading. I wasn't on duty
17 on the 7th. I don't work Saturdays, Sundays, and national holidays. So I
18 know from what people tell me, from what I was able to read.
19 Q. In response to questions by Mr. Domazet, you've been able to
20 provide us an awful lot of information looking at these records, so I'm
21 just asking you, do the records indicate that the police were called with
22 respect to Mr. Vasiljevic?
23 A. The doctor who wrote this, you know, is a very pedantic, neat
24 doctor who writes down everything. He notes down absolutely everything
25 and has been working like that for years. So I do believe that the SUP
1 was called in if he wrote that down, if he made the entry.
2 Q. Now, in response to a question that Mr. Domazet asked you, you
3 said that during this time period, every case history you saw had the
4 place of injury classified as "battlefield." Did I hear you correctly?
5 A. That's what we noticed. And we would usually make a note of that
6 from people coming from that area. But as I say, this was written down in
7 the reception-admission department, not we at our department. But when it
8 comes into our hands, we can read it and see that the patient is from the
9 Ratiste, and that's what was written at the reception-admission
10 service. Why, I don't know.
11 Q. So it was your perception at this time that this was true. Now,
12 my question to you is: Was this also true in the case of, let's say, a
13 young child who couldn't be a soldier, a young child coming in with a
14 fracture? Was it true in those cases as well?
15 A. You would have to ask somebody who worked in the department with
16 children, children's ward. I do not have access there. And it's a
17 different service altogether, different department. So I don't know
18 whether they used to do that, whether they would describe that in that
19 way. I don't know.
20 Q. Let me ask you this: Let's say an elderly man who was clearly
21 beyond the years of military service, would his place of injury also be
22 listed as "battlefield," in your experience?
23 A. Well, you keep referring to my experience. I don't know what they
24 would write, whether they would write that in that case.
25 Q. Well, Mrs. Pavlovic --
1 A. And why they wrote this, why they entered that.
2 Q. You've testified before us that during this time period, you and
3 the other nurses noticed that all the patients were having their location
4 of injury listed as "battlefield." Is that correct? Please would you
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. I'm trying to clarify the statement that you made and my question
8 is: Was this also true with elderly men who were clearly beyond the age
9 of military service? Did you and the other nurses also note that such
10 people were listed as having been injured on the battlefield?
11 A. Well, to be quite frank, I didn't pay attention to that, but I
12 assume that's what it says, for them, too, it would say that. I assume
14 Q. And did you ever see a similar entry for, let's say, an elderly
15 woman who perhaps fractured her hip? Did you see -- did you and the other
16 nurses notice that they, too, were listed as having been injured on the
18 A. You mean women coming from that area or women who were injured at
19 that time coming from a different village, another village?
20 Q. What I'm asking you is of the case histories that you noticed that
21 were now being described as coming from the battlefield, did those case
22 histories also include elderly women who may have broken their hip or
23 received some other injury, received some fracture?
24 JUDGE HUNT: But, Mr. Groome, the witness has put her finger
25 right on the point. Wait a moment. Put her finger right on the point.
1 She says, you mean those who came from Visegrad. That's what they had
2 said, that those who came from Visegrad were always being described as
3 being from the battlefield. May I suggest you include that in your
5 MR. GROOME: Yes.
6 Q. Sorry for my misunderstanding. Let me go back in and ask another
7 question again. Is it only from the town of Visegrad that you and the
8 other nurses noticed that the location was being listed as "battlefield"
9 for patients coming into Uzice hospital? Is it only from that town or was
10 it from other areas as well?
11 A. Do you mean that the war was -- it was -- they were only at war in
12 Visegrad? We had fighters --
13 Q. No --
14 A. -- from Skelani who were there then. But that area, that
15 general area close to Uzice, that's where they came to us from. Not only
16 from Visegrad but from that general area.
17 Q. So you're telling us that patients that arrived from Eastern
18 Bosnia, close to Uzice, it was those patients who started having their
19 location of injury listed as "battlefield"?
20 A. I assume so, yes. But I didn't make those entries, you see. And
21 at that time --
22 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, I'm just trying to get at the records that you
23 described in response to a question of Mr. Domazet. You seem to be very
24 clear that around this time that you began to notice a change in the
25 location of where the people were injured. My question is: The area from
1 which you noticed it, is it the Eastern Bosnia area, in the area of
2 Visegrad, is that where you noticed the change in what location was
4 A. I'm not quite clear. I don't understand what you are asking me.
5 My job was not to see where the patients were coming from. I'm not a
6 soldier. I don't understand. I really do apologise. I'm just a nurse
7 doing her job.
8 Q. When you told Mr. Domazet that you noticed this change, what area
9 were you referring to? Patients from what area?
10 A. Change of what? I don't understand. What change? What change
11 are you referring to, sir? I'm not clear on that.
12 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think that there was a very great emphasis.
13 If there was a reference to the word "change," I don't remember it. Why
14 don't you just ask her without reference to the "change." This is an
15 important issue, and I think that you're introducing an unnecessary
16 complication to it.
17 Of those that she saw that came from Eastern Bosnia to Uzice, were
18 they all described as having coming from a battlefield, including women
19 who were having a hip replacement? That's what you're really after, isn't
21 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
22 Q. You've heard the question -- the Judge's phrasing of the
23 question. Could I ask you to answer that, please?
24 A. I cannot say that it was for all because I just don't know. I
25 said at the beginning it wasn't my job to see who was coming from the war
1 zone. For me, all patients were equal. So I really cannot answer your
2 question. I really don't know.
3 Q. I'm still trying to understand what you were describing to Mr.
4 Domazet. Can you just tell us as simply as possible? When you told Mr.
5 Domazet that you and other nurses noticed that the location
6 of "battlefield" was on the case histories at this period of time, is that
7 true? Is that still a statement that you feel comfortable making, that
8 around this period of time, on the case history, you and other nurses
9 began to notice that "battlefield" was being listed as the location of
11 A. I don't know what you're asking me. I don't understand. I don't
12 understand your question. Please believe me. I don't know what you mean.
13 Q. Please consider it over the lunch break, and I will ask you again
14 this afternoon.
15 Let me move on to a question regarding the operation protocol.
16 Can you describe for us where the operation protocol book is kept?
17 A. The protocol is kept in the ambulanta, which is where the
18 medicines are, the dispensary. And doctors and nurses have access to it.
19 Usually, nurses write in entries, and technicians, too. Very rarely does
20 a doctor make an entry. That is rare.
21 Q. Is that the same place you described as being where the shift
22 books were kept?
23 A. The same room.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. The same room, yes.
1 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn now until 2.30.
2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Groome.
3 MR. GROOME: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Pavlovic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. I want to return to that issue about the battlefront, and perhaps
7 the easiest way to clear it up is to just read a few of the questions that
8 Mr. Domazet asked you and your answers and let us go from there.
9 Now, Mr. Domazet asked you:
10 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, will you look below that? It says on
11 the battlefront in Visegrad. What does the term battlefront mean to you?
12 And then you answered Mr. Domazet:
13 A. Well, you see, all the people who came from that
14 area at that time, I noticed that on their case history this was written.
15 Now, why that is so, I don't know.
16 And then Mr. Domazet asked you:
17 Q. When you said that all the people coming from the
18 area, the area of Visegrad, they were the most frequent patients that came
19 to your hospital, that it was noted that they were coming from the
20 battlefront and that's what you mean?
21 And you said, yes. Then Mr. Domazet said:
22 Q. You mean regardless of those injuries they had and
23 how those injuries were inflicted?
24 And your answer was:
25 A. Mr. Domazet when, a patient is hospital -- whether
1 he waged war or not, for me he's a patient. I don't -- I don't have to
2 think about those things at all.
3 Mr. Domazet said:
4 Q. Let me finish, please. Perhaps we didn't understand
5 one another. This note from the battlefront in Visegrad was to be found
6 on all case histories for patients coming from that area regardless of
7 their diagnosis; is that what you are telling us?
8 And you said:
9 A. Yes, I assume so.
10 And then you went on to tell us where they came from. It was
11 irrelevant to you.
12 Now, do you remember being asked those questions and giving those
14 A. Yes, of course. Yes, of course.
15 Q. Now my question to you is, when you use the word all the people
16 coming from that area had this "battlefront" listing on it, did that also
17 include elderly men who were beyond military service?
18 A. I think it did.
19 Q. So --
20 A. I think --
21 Q. -- you noticed that elderly men beyond military service also had
22 the location of their injury listed as "battlefront," despite where it may
23 actually have occurred; is that what you're telling us?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Now --
1 A. I think that the admissions service would be able to explain this
2 much better for you, because I don't really know what you're asking me.
3 But I did notice these case histories. When I come across a history, it
4 says injury on the battlefront or theatre of operations. I wasn't
5 interested in the reason why that was said, so I can't answer whether this
6 applied to absolutely 100 per cent of the cases.
7 Q. Well, did you notice that it also applied to at least some cases
8 of women?
9 A. I think it did. It was nine years ago, but I think it was applied
10 to them too, though we had far fewer women than men in those days.
11 Q. Now, was it also common during those days for hospital staff to
12 notify military personnel when one of these people came in who had been
13 injured on the battlefront? Were military people routinely notified?
14 A. I don't know that. Again, the admissions service can probably
15 answer that question. That was not our obligation to do that at the
16 orthopedics ward.
17 Q. So can I take it from your answer that to your knowledge, no one
18 on the orthopedics ward ever notified military personnel about the
19 presence of a patient on that ward?
20 A. As far as I know, they did not. Nobody from the military. I
21 assume there must have been a service that provided such information. As
22 far as I know, no such information went from our ward.
23 Q. I'd like to ask you to take a look at D31, and that is the shift
24 report. If you'd just open it up generally to any page. Now, I was just
25 looking at that for the first time a few minutes ago, and see if you agree
1 with my perception of that book, that quite frequently between shifts a
2 number of blank lines are left between those shifts.
3 A. That doesn't mean anything to me.
4 Q. I'm not asking you to interpret it, Mrs. Pavlovic, but just can
5 you tell us, would you agree with my viewing of the book that between
6 shifts very often blank lines are visible? Do you agree with that?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Now, I want you to go to the page for the date the 27th of
9 February. Now, I want you to look at the scene between the two pages, and
10 doesn't it show some evidence of a page being torn out from that book? Is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Were there regulations regarding what somebody was to do if they
14 made a mistake taking notes in this book?
15 A. There weren't any rules. As you see, the page has been torn but
16 the dates follow one another. So it was possible to tear out a page.
17 There was no rule at all regarding that.
18 Q. Can I ask you to look at the 1st of March. And would you agree
19 with me that in that section of the book, there is a page that is taped
20 into the ledger?
21 A. Yes, a page has been taped into the book.
22 Q. Now --
23 A. That is what you see. But I know that a page fell out. It's an
24 old notebook. Now, who stuck it back in, I don't know. But I will agree
25 with you it's extremely untidy.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Can I ask you to look at the entire section of the book that
2 covers the period between the 5th of May and the 31st of May. Maybe put
3 your finger in the 5th of May and then page to the 31st of May.
4 Would you agree with me that that entire period between the 5th of
5 May and the 31st of May was taped into the book?
6 A. I wouldn't agree. The notebook is so old. Ten years has gone by.
7 It's possible that pages fell out. But what is written there is quite in
8 order, and no one added anything. Of that, I'm sure. It may look like
9 that to you.
10 Q. I'm not interpreting it in any way. I'm just asking you, can you
11 look at the book and do you agree with me that all of the pages between
12 the 5th of May and the 31st of May - perhaps they fell out because they
13 were old - but it is clear that they were taped back into the book?
14 A. You are right. When I found this notebook, that is how it was. If
15 I wanted to stick any pages in, I would have probably stuck these in as
16 well. The way I found it, that is how I brought it. It looks as if it's
17 been stuck in, that's true.
18 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, nobody is suggesting you did anything other than
19 that. I want to ask you to look at the pages for the day of the 5th of
20 July. And it's the page on your right-hand side. And it appears in that
21 case that two pages are stuck together with tape. Is that true?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you -- do you have any explanation for that? Is that a
24 procedure that was followed in particular cases?
25 A. I assume that someone made a mistake. He couldn't tear it out
1 because the other pages would fall out as well. That is my assumption. I
2 could have unstuck it, but I didn't dare to do that. I left it as it was.
3 The way I found it, that is how I brought it. Because if this page were
4 to be torn out, then probably this one would fall out as well. And then I
5 certainly wouldn't be able to explain it, and I didn't want to open it out
6 because I took the notebook nine years later, which we may have looked at
7 two or three times in all in the intervening period.
8 Q. Now, it's hard to see what's on those pages that were taped
9 together, but at least the portion that we can see is blank; is that
11 A. Yes. We can open it and we can all see it together, if you like.
12 Q. I don't think we should alter it in any way at the moment. Now,
13 can you explain to us -- you told us that you brought this book and the
14 operation protocol from the place or the room where the nurses on the
15 orthopaedic ward keep their medicines; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. And can you describe for us what, if any, procedure you had to
18 follow in order to take that book out?
19 A. For me to take this book out, I just had to ask the head nurse. I
20 asked her. I didn't have to. It's a book that doesn't mean anything to
21 us. We don't have to safekeep it. But the other one, the protocol on
22 operated patients, for that I had to ask the head of the department and
23 the head nurse, and they gave their permission.
24 Q. But you said that you didn't have to ask their permission. You
25 could have simply removed it if you wanted to; correct?
1 A. Which book?
2 Q. The shift report.
3 A. I could have taken this one, yes. Because we are duty-bound to
4 safekeep this book for only two years. I said at the beginning why we
5 kept the book on 1992. We even have notebooks on therapy, on test
6 results, and so on, which we are still keeping. When you look at them,
7 they're in very bad shape, but we still have them from 1992.
8 Q. Now, do you have special privileges because of your length of
9 service to be able to take this book out without permission or do all
10 nurses in the orthopaedic ward have the same access to these books as you?
11 A. I have no special privilege because of my years of service, and
12 all nurses have access to this notebook. All the nurses may take this
13 notebook. In fact, all the staff of the department are able to take it
14 and read it, all the people employed. Of course, I have in mind the
15 medical staff, the nurses, the plaster technicians, and the doctors.
16 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that you take a look at D32, and that's the
17 operation protocol. And again, if you would open it up to any page will
18 do for my next question.
19 Column 7 on that operation protocol indicates a column from -- on
20 which the time of the operation is to be listed; is that correct?
21 A. No. In this column, we copy out the course of the operation,
22 actually what the doctor did during the operation, how he performed the
23 operation, if you're referring to this, seven, the seventh column, where
24 it says "operative finding" and then below that.
25 Q. Actually, I'm referring to the column next to that, to the right
1 of that. Does the heading of that column say operation lasted from,
2 "space" and then to?
3 A. Yes. I see that column. It's a column that we do not fill in
4 because not a single doctor, as far as I know, never put down that the
5 operation lasted from such-and-such a time until such-and-such a time.
6 They don't write that in the operative finding. For as long as I have
7 been working in orthopedics, I never saw a doctor indicate that the
8 operation lasted from-until, only the date when the operation was done and
9 that's all.
10 Q. Now, this book that we have before us, is that a log of all
11 operations performed in Uzice or just orthopaedic operations?
12 A. Only orthopaedic operations, those done at the orthopedics ward.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the other operation protocols maintained in
14 Uzice hospital?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Is it possible that in those operation protocols the time is
18 A. I don't know that. I've never held in my hand a protocol from a
19 different ward.
20 Q. Now, you told us with respect to entry 285, that of Mr.
21 Vasiljevic, that you recognised the handwriting to be that of Mrs. Branka
22 Djordjevic; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. That is my head nurse at the time. Now she's deputy head
24 sister of the whole hospital.
25 Q. So Mrs. Djordjevic still works at Uzice hospital?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Now, is there any place that you can tell us from these records
3 when precisely the weights and traction were removed from Mr. Vasiljevic's
5 A. I can't show you from this book.
6 Q. Is that information recorded somewhere?
7 A. I don't see that it was in this case, but there are doctors who
8 are very particular about these records. And where we see Dr. Stojkovic,
9 then they indicate the date when the traction was removed and when a cast
10 was placed. In this case, I don't see it, that it was done. But it's
11 never done in this book, in this protocol. Never for any patient is that
12 indicated in this book.
13 Q. So what you're telling us is that that type of information would
14 ordinarily be recorded on the case history, but in the case of Mr.
15 Vasiljevic, it was not recorded? Is that what you're telling us?
16 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't see it here in front of me. And that is
17 a fact that the doctor would enter, if he enters it. As you can see, the
18 date of the 17th of July, it says that the plaster cast was repaired. But
19 there's no note as to when the plaster cast was placed, but the doctors
20 will be able to explain that best for you.
21 Q. Now, I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Vasiljevic's
22 behaviour. From the records that you have before you, it seems that the
23 first time that anybody made any note about unusual behaviour on his part
24 was on the third shift of the 4th into the 5th of July, 1992; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And we know from the case history book that two things happened
3 after that. One was that a request was made for a neuropsychiatrist to
4 examine him. That's correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. And it seems that we also know that that didn't happen when it was
7 supposed to happen. There's a note saying that he was not examined; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes, correct.
10 Q. And then on the 6th, a day and a half after this initial
11 observation, a discharge form was drafted to discharge him from the
12 hospital; is that correct?
13 A. I don't see that, that it was on the 6th, and I can't remember
15 Q. Well, let's look on the case history, P138, for the note by Dr.
16 Stojkovic on the 7th of July, and the first line of that note says:
17 "A discharge order was made out for the patient yesterday." That would be
18 the 6th, correct?
19 A. Yes. Yes. I see that now, yes.
20 Q. Is it possible that because of the trouble that Mr. Vasiljevic was
21 causing, one of the decisions made was to, let's discharge him, let him go
22 home? That was one way of dealing with the behaviours that he was engaged
23 in in the ward; is that correct?
24 A. I don't know that because that is a decision only the doctor can
1 Q. Well, you will agree with me that the discharge order was written
2 up about a day and a half to two days after the first observation of this
3 unacceptable behaviour; correct?
4 A. I see that the discharge paper, according to this note, was
5 written on the 6th of July, and that was a decision by the doctor.
6 Q. Now, I'm going to ask that you take a look at D30, and it's a
7 discharge order. And am I correct in concluding that that discharge order
8 was drafted on the 28th of July? Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, yes. You're right.
10 Q. And once again, we see that the patient identification number in
11 this case is 10014 of 1992; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, where would be -- where would the discharge order that was
14 drafted on the 6th of July, where would that be? We haven't seen that
15 document yet.
16 A. I don't know that. The discharge order is written by the doctor.
17 The nurses are those who simply hand that discharge to the patient to have
18 it certified. Now, where it could be is something I cannot know.
19 Q. Now, about Mr. Vasiljevic, you said that he was a remarkable or a
20 memorable patient, I believe, and you told us that you remembered him from
21 the very first day because he said that he broke his leg when a horse he
22 was riding slipped; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, correct.
24 Q. Now, up until now we've talked vaguely about some of the other
25 behaviours that he was engaged in that caused you to remember him. Can
1 you tell us more specifically precisely what do you remember Mr.
2 Vasiljevic doing on the ward?
3 A. You see, we never had a patient who sang, then five minutes later
4 he would sing so that the whole floor would echo with the sound. I don't
5 know if you understand what I'm saying. After that, he would quarrel,
6 then he would calm down, then he would sleep. Simply a man, while awake,
7 would draw attention to himself by everything he did. So he stood out
8 from other patients. At least, I never encountered such a patient.
9 Q. Do you recall anything unusual about the songs he was singing? Do
10 you remember what type of songs they were?
11 A. No. No. I can't remember that. I just know that he was singing.
12 He was noisy. He could be impolite with the staff and the patients. Now,
13 what songs he sang, I cannot remember.
14 Q. Now, do you recall him ever bragging or claiming to other patients
15 or to staff that he had killed Muslims?
16 A. I don't remember that. I never heard that.
17 Q. And what is your best recollection regarding when you first
18 observed this unusual disruptive behaviour?
19 A. Well, you see, usually when we enter the patient's room in the
20 morning, they're still drowsy; they're suffering from pain. We find
21 patients -- and then we come across a patient who is euphoric in the
22 morning, who sings. After that, he quarrels with one of us, has an
23 argument. So that all this was rather strange and unusual.
24 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, let's just talk about Mr. Vasiljevic for a moment.
25 Are you able to tell us how -- when he first began to exhibit this singing
1 and these other behaviours that you've described for us?
2 A. Well, from the very beginning he differed quite a bit from the
3 others, but at first he wasn't a threat to anyone, either us or his -- the
4 other patients in his room. There were certain situations, but he wasn't
5 a threat until that third shift on the 4th and 5th of July, when my
6 colleague wrote this down, saying that he had harassed a Muslim who was
7 lying in the same room with him. Until then, as far as I know he hadn't
8 attacked anyone physically.
9 Q. And that was three weeks -- approximately three weeks after his
10 entry onto your ward; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know the name of the Muslim patient he allegedly harassed?
13 A. I do. I said a moment ago. I told the gentleman a moment ago.
14 Q. That's Mr. Lepenica?
15 A. Mr. Lepenica, yes.
16 Q. Just in the interest of your continued friendship, I've read his
17 statement to the Prosecutor's personnel, and he said nothing negative
18 about you in that statement at least.
19 Now, I want to ask you to take a look at P138, the case history,
20 and I'll draw your attention to the surgery note of the 15th of June. And
21 from reading that note, it would appear that that note was written after
22 the surgery; correct?
23 A. Yes. That's what is done. Always after the surgery, the doctor
24 describes his operation, his surgery, what procedure he used, and he takes
25 it to the sisters or to the technician to make the entry, anybody actually
1 who is on duty in that particular shift.
2 Q. And can you tell us, when is the operation log filled out?
3 Is that filled out before or after the surgery as well?
4 A. It is filled out throughout 24 hours, because if the doctor
5 happens to operate sometimes in the second or third shift and writes the
6 operative piece, if he gives it to the nurse, she can include the entry
7 straight away. But as these operations are usually done in the morning,
8 before noon, then they are recorded before noon, but that is not a hard
9 and fast rule. So they can be written out throughout a 24-hour period.
10 The book is always free.
11 Q. So which would have been created first, the surgery note in the
12 case history, P138, or the operation log in D32, I believe? Which one
13 would have been done first?
14 A. You have to write it down in the history first, because the
15 technician just transcribes the operative procedure. The doctor has
16 already written it in the case history.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Domazet --
18 A. It's copied out into the surgical book.
19 Q. Mr. Domazet asked you about a column or space number 8 on the case
20 history and the fact that the word "military post" was underlined, and
21 what I want to ask you is, in your experience having seen many, many of
22 these case histories, how is that section usually marked? Is it marked
23 with an underline under the appropriate choice?
24 A. I never look at that column. The column that I'm interested in,
25 that we are interested in, in the ward, is the very first column where it
1 says the name and surname of the patient, the patient identification
2 number, and the doctor who admitted the patient. That is all a nurse on
3 the ward has to look at. All the rest, we rarely look at all that. I
4 have looked at it now because the gentleman asked me to take a note of it.
5 Q. Now, at the top of P138 there's the number 386. Can you tell us
6 what that number means?
7 A. I couldn't say. I don't know what that number is.
8 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting of the person who wrote that
10 A. No. No. No, I can't.
11 Q. How about 603/92? Do you know what that number is?
12 A. I can't say. I don't know.
13 Q. Would I be correct in thinking that they most probably are ordinal
14 numbers as well that were assigned to the case of Mr. Vasiljevic?
15 A. I can't know what those numbers are, 603/92. When the patient
16 goes home, we usually put a number like that down.
17 Q. And would that be listed on the --
18 A. And then he -- it is entered that he has left the department. But
19 I can't recognise who could have written that.
20 Q. And if that is a number associated with the discharge of the
21 patient, would it be found on the discharge notice that we have before us?
22 A. No. No. No. Only in a notebook which is kept in the department.
23 Q. So is there another notebook that you have in orthopedics to log
24 out when a patient leaves?
25 A. Yes. Yes. And there is a book where we record this, but only
1 when the patient leaves. Then we have that information. We have the
2 ordinal number. It says when he came to hospital, the name and surname,
3 where he came from, what his profession is, the diagnosis is entered with
4 which he is being discharged, and when he actually left the hospital. But
5 I cannot be sure that that is the number, that that is what the number is,
6 because I haven't got the book. I can only guess.
7 Q. Did you look for that book before you came and found that it
8 wasn't there or --
9 A. No, no, no. I didn't look for that book at all because there is
10 the book that I have to save. That is the only book we save for a period
11 of ten years. That's why.
12 Q. Now you've told us about this protocol book for when patients
13 leave, and we've heard from another member of Uzice hospital about a
14 protocol book for his department in which, when the patient arrived, that
15 was noted. Do you have a separate protocol book in the orthopaedic ward
16 where the arrival of a patient is noted?
17 A. No. No. Once they arrive, they are entered into the admissions
18 book. We in the orthopedics department just recorded the results in the
19 results sheet, the therapy sheet, and the operative protocol, the surgical
20 protocol. But we have a book which shows which patient -- when patients
21 have logged out and what their personal patient number -- patient
22 identification number was and so on.
23 Now, I cannot be certain that that notebook is still in the
24 department, on the ward. We have it for the past two years. We have to
25 have that. We have the most recent one.
1 Q. So it is entirely possible that there's an admissions book or an
2 admissions protocol book that would have precise information about when
3 Mr. Vasiljevic came to the ward? That book may exist and may be on the
4 ward at this very moment?
5 A. The most precise and detailed information can be given about that
6 at the admissions reception department of our hospital, because they have
7 to write in the hour and even the minute, and there are technicians who
8 record those things to the minute, when the patient was admitted and what
9 ward he was admitted to or department.
10 Q. But if I understand you correctly, there is a similar protocol
11 book kept on the orthopaedic ward; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, Uzice hospital, is that a military hospital or a civilian
15 A. It's a civilian one, of course. I work in a civilian hospital.
16 Q. Is there a separate place in Uzice for military personnel to be
17 treated or are they treated at Uzice?
18 A. As far as I know, there is an outpatients department for
19 military -- people who have military insurance policies, who are insured
20 through the military, but if they need to be hospitalised or a medical
21 examination in the hospital itself, they come with a military referral
22 from their own outpatients department.
23 Q. So military personnel are treated in Uzice hospital?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Now, is -- are the staff, especially at this time in Uzice, were
1 they equipped to handle emergency cases 24 hours a day?
2 A. I don't understand you.
3 Q. Well --
4 A. You mean each person individually or generally speaking as a whole
5 were we all ready to take in emergencies 24 hours a day?
6 Q. Let me phrase it a different way. If a patient arrived and needed
7 urgent surgery at 2.00 in the morning, would they be able to be operated
8 on at that time?
9 A. I think so, yes.
10 Q. Now, you know the type of operation that Mr. Vasiljevic had. Can
11 you describe for us what kind of preparation is necessary to prepare a
12 patient for this type of surgery that Mr. Vasiljevic had?
13 A. We need to prepare the operative field, which means that for Mr.
14 Vasiljevic, we had to shave the joint, disinfect the area, and of course
15 to call the instruments technicians from the surgery department because we
16 haven't got a theatre in our department. The operating theatre isn't in
17 our department.
18 Q. And approximately how long would it take to do that preparation?
19 A. That all depends on the person preparing that. That is done by
20 the plaster cast technicians and the other technicians working at the
21 department, depending on his capability. That's relative.
22 Q. Well, can you give us a range of what a fast preparer would do and
23 would a slow preparer would do? Can you give us some idea of the range of
24 time it might take?
25 A. Well, half an hour. Thirty minutes, shall we say? That is the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 usual time needed for preparation.
2 Q. Now, I ask you to go back to P138 and look at Dr. Jovicevic's
3 note. I believe you still have it in front of you, do you? The case
4 history. I'm sorry, the case history and the note by Dr. Jovicevic. Can
5 you see that?
6 A. Yes. I must say -- I have to say that I'm reading this for the
7 first time because we don't read those remarks. Us nurses, we don't.
8 Q. Well, if I could draw your attention to the very last line of his
9 note, and am I correct in concluding from that note that at the time Dr.
10 Jovicevic is typing the note, this preparation for surgical treatment was
11 being done at that very moment?
12 A. Judging by what it says, one could come to that conclusion, yes.
13 Q. And Dr. Jovicevic had classified this case as an emergency case;
15 A. I don't know that.
16 Q. Well, I'm sorry. Perhaps it's a translation error. The first
17 word on the top of the -- does it not say "Urgent case"?
18 A. I've read it, the top, what it says. You mean when you says,
19 "Admitted as an urgent case"?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. That's what they usually write, but our doctors will be able to
22 explain that much better than me.
23 Q. Is there any more serious classification of a patient than urgent
24 case? Is there another category or term that's used to significant a more
25 seriously ill patient?
1 A. The doctor determines that. I don't know what the categories --
2 what other categories may exist. The doctor will be able to answer that
4 Q. Well, I'm just asking you, in your experience in looking at case
5 histories, have you ever seen any other categories or descriptions that
6 would indicate the level of severity of urgency, the urgency?
7 A. No. I've seen other case histories where it doesn't say "Urgent
8 case," but this word -- these words to us means that the patient was
9 admitted as an urgent case. I know that because they explained that to
10 us. The doctors explained to us what that meant.
11 Q. Now, there's no mention of the surgery of Mr. Vasiljevic in the
12 shift book that's D31 on the third shift going from the 14th into the
13 15th; is that correct? There's no mention of the surgery of Mr.
15 A. No.
16 Q. So we should expect, if we had the first shift book, we should
17 expect to see the note about his surgery in that book; is that correct?
18 A. If the doctor didn't tell the nurse in the third shift that that
19 would be done in the course of the first shift, she has no right to record
20 it. That means that he didn't say anything. He didn't say when he
21 intended to do it. Had he said -- had he told the nurse, the nurse would
22 have had to have recorded it in the takeover of duty book.
23 Q. The book that we have that records the shift information records
24 information from the second and third shift; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. We don't have the book here in court for the first shift; is that
3 A. That book doesn't exist. It's not kept. It's not recorded.
4 Q. So that there is no book where what happens on the first shift is
6 A. No. What is done in the first shift, we have the protocol, this
7 protocol here. And the results, I mentioned that, we have a results
8 notebook in which all the patients are recorded and what the laboratory is
9 asked to do, the laboratory tests and findings. That book exists. Then
10 there is a book of the consultations asked for, for certain patients, and
11 that's all.
12 Q. When I first began to ask you questions, there were about five or
13 six different things that were recorded in these shift books. Certainly,
14 not all of those six are recorded in the operation protocol; correct?
15 A. No. In the surgical protocol, the operation is recorded.
16 Q. And was there ever a time that a shift book for the first shift
17 was maintained in the orthopaedic ward?
18 A. Since I have been working, no, but there is a consultations
19 notebook in which we record, enter for each patient. If a psychiatrist
20 was called, it is recorded. If an internal medicine specialist was called
21 in, it is recorded. And there is another notebook in which we enter all
22 the patients' names that are patients admitted. That is written in the
23 first, second, and third shift those entries are made. So every single
24 patient who was admitted, it says name, surname, and then take
25 such-and-such from the laboratory, and at the end, the patient
1 identification number. That is all that is done in the first shift.
2 Q. This admissions book that you're talking about now, is that the
3 same book you were referring to a few minutes ago?
4 A. I'm not sure I understand.
5 Q. A few minutes ago you referred to an orthopaedic admittance book.
6 Is this the same book that you're telling us about now or is this a
7 different book?
8 A. It is the results notebook, the findings, the results. That's
9 what we call it. And on the front page, it says "Notebook of results,"
10 and in that notebook we make entries of every patient coming to the
11 department. What the doctor -- what analysis the doctor has asked for and
12 the patient identification number, in addition to the name and surname.
13 Q. In the orthopaedic ward, is there a typewriter there that is used
14 by doctors to type up the notes on the case history?
15 A. Yes, there is.
16 Q. And how many typewriters were there in 1992, more than one?
17 A. Well, I really can't remember. I know that we always have too few
18 of them, always, always a shortage. Sometimes a doctor has to wait for
19 his colleague to type something out. We haven't got too many of them,
20 that's for sure.
21 Q. Can you tell us with certainty that there was more than one at the
22 time of 1992, summer of 1992?
23 A. Well, I can't say so, but perhaps only one was in working order.
24 It was a very long time ago. It's very difficult for me to remember
25 things like that now, and I wouldn't like to say something that I'm not
1 absolutely sure of.
2 Q. And am I correct in thinking that the -- each department in the
3 hospital had its own typewriter to do its own notes on case histories?
4 A. Yes. Yes. You're right.
5 Q. I want to show you one of the medical records. It's P137. You
6 did not bring this, but it is one of the records from Uzice hospital.
7 MR. GROOME: This document has never been translated but I do have
8 copies for the Court if the -- if it's convenient for the Court.
9 Q. I want to ask you to look at the entry in this protocol book with
10 ordinal number 188. Do you see that entry?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And who is that -- what is the name of person --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- in that entry?
15 A. I assume it is Mitar Vasiljevic. This "Vasiljevic" isn't too
16 legible, but yes, Vasiljevic Mitar, yes.
17 Q. Now, am I correct in saying that according to this protocol book,
18 Mr. Vasiljevic was the last patient recorded on the 14th of June?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. And can I ask you to just read across the entry for Mr.
21 Vasiljevic? I believe it's the last column, but I'm not absolutely sure.
22 But does that entry indicate somebody who was notified of Mr. Vasiljevic's
24 A. In the last column it says, "SUP informed," and then it says, "V
25 police," and the number is 985. "V police," and 985.
1 Q. Does that number mean anything to you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Is it possible that "V police" stands for military police? Did
4 you ever see that abbreviation?
5 A. Possibly, yes.
6 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Pavlovic.
7 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Domazet.
9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I do have, Your Honour.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Domazet:
11 Q. When we are looking at this document -- keep it, please, in front
12 of you, Exhibit 137, and will you please look at the first column which
13 goes from 184 to 193; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And 184. Will you tell us what the time of admission was, the
16 date and hour?
17 A. For number 184, he was recorded on the 13th of June, 1992, at 1630
19 Q. And the last entry on this page under number 193?
20 A. I can only see, under 193, that the date is the 15th of June,
21 1992, but I can't see the time. There's no time. There is -- not on my
22 copy. I can't see anything.
23 Q. I think it's 1540. It can barely be seen. But tell me regarding
24 the last column, from the top to the bottom, in all these cases, will you
25 see what it says? Is it right to say that in all these cases the SUP, the
1 military police, and what is known as 985 were informed?
2 A. Yes, I see that. All the admitted patients, we see that it says
3 in the last column that the SUP and the military police have been
5 Q. Would you agree that in some cases it just says, "All informed"?
6 A. Yes. For 189, it says "Informed all."
7 Q. And then when you see Mitar Vasiljevic's entry under number 188
8 and his admission to the hospital at 2135 hours, will you see when the
9 previous person was admitted?
10 A. Yes. 187, on the 14th of June, 1992, at 1540 hours. The name is
11 Dragan Filipovic.
12 Q. Does it say to which department he was admitted or sent to?
13 A. Admitted to the orthopaedic department. It says that in the
14 seventh column, column number 7, "Admitted to orthopedics."
15 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, is that the Dragan Filipovic whose name you read
16 out as having been admitted in the second shift on the 14th of June and
17 who was operated? You found him in the operations book of Dr. Jovicevic
18 on the 14th, and on the 15th, in the morning, you took his results. Is
19 that the same person?
20 A. Yes. Dragan Filipovic, who was admitted before the mentioned
21 Mitar Vasiljevic.
22 Q. Just one further point in this connection. You were looking at a
23 photocopy with the dates and times. Do you know which book this sheet was
24 taken from or photocopied from?
25 A. I can just assume, because I've never seen this book in real life.
1 These data are entered only in the admissions department of a hospital.
2 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions regarding that exhibit. I
3 have a few more questions relevant to questions put to you by Mr. Groome.
4 In answer to Mr. Groome's question as to when you began to notice
5 something in Mr. Vasiljevic's behaviour, you said, and I took that down,
6 on page 50 you said, and I'm quoting: "From the very beginning, I noticed
7 that something was wrong with him."
8 Do you remember having said that?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. And you also said that you heard a lot from your colleagues about
11 it. So I assume they were colleagues from your shift or from other
12 shifts? Could you tell us what it is that you heard from your colleagues?
13 A. Well, you see, we do have the shift book, but we also hand over
14 our shift orally because that nurse cannot leave until the first shift
15 arrives, and she has to be told what happened. Then every nurse briefs
16 the incoming nurse, not just about Mitar Vasiljevic but regularly. So
17 that I would hear -- not just me but all of us -- comments about his
18 behaviour, whether he was restless, whether he harassed anyone.
19 Q. What you heard from your colleagues in addition to what you
20 personally noticed and heard, did that lead you to make the conclusion
21 that you did which I read out a moment ago, and that is that you said that
22 you noted from the beginning that something was wrong with him?
23 A. To tell you quite frankly and informally, he seemed to me not
24 quite normal, quite lost and not quite normal. But I'm saying that as a
25 layman. Because one cannot break a leg and then sing. To me, that is
2 Q. Very well, Mrs. Pavlovic. Mr. Groome drew your attention to an
3 exhibit, D31, this is a notebook of shifts, and asked you to look at the
4 second shift for the 14th of June. Do you have that notebook with you?
5 A. Yes, I've found it.
6 Q. You found the 14th of June?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In answer to Mr. Groome, you said that there was something missing
9 in the note of that shift. If I understood correctly is that the names
10 were not entered of the people who were in that shift, as we mostly find
11 in other cases. Is that true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Apart from that, apart from the fact that on that page we don't
14 see the names of the nurses or technicians who were there, does the report
15 regarding that day have any other shortcomings?
16 A. No. All I can conclude from this note is that they were very busy
17 that day. This probably doesn't mean anything to you, but the report
18 tells me that they were working in the operating theatre, that they had
19 admissions, one, two. So I think there are no shortcomings. They were
21 Q. One further question regarding that date. Was that the shift and
22 date when this patient that we mentioned a moment ago was admitted, Dragan
24 A. Yes. That is the shift that admitted Dragan Filipovic to the
25 ward, the second shift on the 14th of June, 1992.
1 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, asked by Mr. Groome about Dr. Jovicevic and a
2 possible other doctor on duty in the night of the 14th of June, you said
3 that it was Dr. Jovicevic and that it can be seen from the fact that he
4 admitted this patient. But he also said that Dr. Jovicevic was the
5 director of the hospital at the same time. My question is, when Dr.
6 Jovicevic was performing the duties as director of the whole hospital of
7 the general hospital in Uzice; is that right?
8 A. Yes, correct.
9 Q. Was he at the same time working as a doctor in the ward and
10 performing operations?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And like other doctors, did he have the duty to be on duty for 24
13 hours like other doctors?
14 A. Yes, he did.
15 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, did that mean that apart from the time when he was
16 working in the ward or being on duty, that sometimes he had to be absent
17 from the ward to perform the duties he had as the director of the
19 A. I don't know that. That was not something that interested me. So
20 his colleagues will probably be able to tell you something about that.
21 They certainly had to do a lot of those things instead of him. Now, what
22 their internal arrangements were, I don't know.
23 Q. Would it happen, Mrs. Pavlovic, that in the case of an emergency,
24 an urgent case, that in addition to the doctor on duty, another doctor may
25 be called in to assist?
1 A. You mean an orthopaedic surgeon? You are referring to the wartime
3 Q. Yes. I'm referring to 1992.
4 A. There was always another orthopaedist in the admissions department
5 as member of this triage group.
6 Q. You're talking about the triage department. That is the
7 admissions department which has no physical link to the orthopaedics
8 department where Dr. Jovicevic was on duty?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So at the admissions triage department, there was also an
11 orthopaedist who was on duty who took part in the admissions?
12 A. Yes. He was a member of the team, together with the other
13 surgeons, general surgeons or of whatever other speciality. As far as I
14 know, there was an orthopaedist as well, but the doctor will explain that
15 better than I can.
16 Q. Those doctors who were working in the triage group, be they
17 surgeons or orthopaedists, were they doctors who were from that hospital
18 working in their respective departments or were they doctors who were
19 employed somewhere else?
20 A. No. They were doctors of the general hospital, if I understood
21 your question properly. Do you mean whether doctors were called in from
22 other clinics or hospitals? I don't understand your question.
23 Q. Let me try and make it quite clear. The doctors working in the
24 triage team at the admissions part of the hospital which you said
25 consisted of surgeons and orthopaedists, were they the same doctors who
1 were working in the various departments of the hospital?
2 A. Yes, they were the same doctors.
3 Q. Mrs. Pavlovic, Mr. Groome asked you to look at this notebook and
4 Exhibit D31, and he drew your attention to certain dates and certain parts
5 of that notebook which are either untidy, with pages falling out or
6 something like that. I didn't notice that his remarks related to this
7 particular period, but will you please open the page relating to the 14th
8 and the 15th of June, please?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Will you look at those pages, please, a few pages before and a few
11 pages after. Are there any irregularities on those pages which you did
12 notice on some other pages that Mr. Groome drew your attention to?
13 A. To be quite sincere, I see no irregularities except for the fact
14 that the names were not noted down in the second shift for the 14th of
15 June, as we said a moment ago.
16 Q. In those days, was there any other nurse with the name Slavica in
17 the orthopaedics department?
18 A. I would have to think about it, because now there are 6 of us left
19 out of the 25, 6 who were working at that time.
20 Q. Can you remember whether there's another Slavica working, there
21 was another Slavica working?
22 A. Well, you know, it's a very common name in our country. There
23 were 20 nurses, and many have left.
24 Q. Never mind. If you remember, you'll tell me. Let me ask you
25 something else.
1 Who would decide on the transfer of patients from one room to
3 A. Only the doctor could decide, the doctor who admits a patient and
4 possibly the head nurse in the department. But only the doctor could tell
5 us to move a patient to such-and-such a room. But every doctor had his
6 own patients' room, that is, the room where his patients were lying.
7 Q. The head nurse, as far as I can remember, her name was certainly
8 not Slavica.
9 A. No. Her name was Branka Djordjevic.
10 Q. I'm asking you this so as to avoid any misunderstanding in my
11 questions and your answers, because Mr. Groome is right when he told you
12 that in the statement of Selim Lepenica that you, too, mentioned, that in
13 the statement to the investigator you were not mentioned, but you were
14 mentioned twice in his statement to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That
15 is why I asked you about that, and I wouldn't like you to have the
16 impression that I had said something that is not correct, because you are
17 mentioned and two other nurses, Sladjana and Zorica, but there's no need
18 to go into that in detail as I have been advised that that is irrelevant.
19 One more question. In answer to a question from Mr. Groome, you
20 said that there was a notebook of results, and I understand that it
21 contained quite a lot of information from the first shift during regular
22 working hours. Do you know whether that notebook still exists that
23 relates to 1992?
24 A. It does, but that notebook is so disorderly. When this one
25 appeared to Mr. Groome as something in very bad shape, I wonder what the
1 impression he will get to see the other one. So it does exist, but it's
2 in very bad shape and untidy.
3 Q. When you say it's untidy, what do you mean? Is it the original
5 A. Yes, it is the original.
6 Q. Has it been corrected or is it just the condition of the pages?
7 A. I meant the condition of the pages, the various handwritings. The
8 impression is a very bad one, but it is an authentic notebook.
9 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Pavlovic.
10 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, madam, very much for coming along to give
12 evidence and for the evidence which you've given. You are now free to
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE HUNT: Rather than try to start another witness this
17 afternoon, I thought it might be just as well if we cleared up a few of
18 these outstanding issues.
19 Mr. Groome, have you seen the expert witness for criminal law
20 which has been filed?
21 MR. GROOME: We received a copy yesterday, Your Honour. I haven't
22 had a chance to read it yet.
23 JUDGE HUNT: When you do, a great deal of it is strictly
24 irrelevant as to what the criminal law is, but it may be of assistance if
25 we ever got to the stage of looking at particular sentences to know what
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the nature of the crimes were that they were sentenced for. The relevant
2 part is the sentencing practices, which we're obliged to have some regard
3 to, but it's all very usual sorts of things, something I have read before,
4 a great deal of it. I'm hoping that we will not need to bring this
5 witness along. You better have a look at it from that point of view as to
6 whether you need to cross-examine him.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the writing samples. What's happening about all
9 of this?
10 MR. GROOME: I must apologise to the Court again. I was not able
11 to look at the documents either this morning or at lunch. I will look at
12 them after court today, and we still have not been able to reach the
13 forensic examiner. We've tried every day.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I wonder if there is another one available because we
15 can't wait forever.
16 MR. GROOME: It's just that this one is just a few miles away so
17 it avoids a lot of the problems that we would have. So if I don't hear
18 from him by the end of tomorrow, we'll seek to identify another forensic
20 JUDGE HUNT: The Netherlands has a population of 16 million
21 people. I'm sure it has more than one competent document examiner. But
22 there are two matters which follow from this: First of all, I think that
23 at some stage arrangements will have to be made within the registry to
24 photostat these documents so that the hospital will have access to those
25 records until we can return the books, and we can't do that unless they've
1 got the books. So if you're still looking at them, they can't get on to
2 that particular thing.
3 MR. GROOME: I'm return them in the morning, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HUNT: And the other thing is this last book, the surgical
5 one, it seems to have some particular importance to it. Perhaps some
6 priority can be given to that so that that can be returned.
7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: You are, of course, still to nominate the periods in
9 each of these particular books that you want to have examined by the
10 document examiner, and I think we should have a record of that somewhere
11 which ones you are having so that Mr. Domazet, if he wishes, can suggest
12 other portions as well.
13 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Just so it doesn't have to be done twice, that's all.
15 Now, is there anything you want to raise before we perhaps have an
16 early afternoon?
17 MR. GROOME: Not for the Prosecution, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: How about you, Mr. Domazet?
19 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, perhaps this is a
20 good opportunity for us to discuss the timetable, since we have another
21 four witnesses who are present, and tomorrow evening, the last two should
22 arrive. According to the progress we are making, it seems to me that by
23 Monday or Tuesday, we will have finished with the examination of
25 JUDGE HUNT: You don't think that's being just a little
1 optimistic, do you? At the rate we're going, I would have thought it
2 might take a little longer than that.
3 MR. DOMAZET: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not criticising anyone because these documents
5 are very important from both parties' points of view, and they necessarily
6 require a great deal of attention. But who are the other doctors or who
7 are the other witnesses who are coming? You've been dropping some off, I
8 gather, along the way.
9 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, another
10 witness has cancelled. At least, he is not able to come during the dates
11 we would have liked to hear him, and it is Dr. Djordje Stojkovic,
12 precisely the doctor that was frequently mentioned by the witnesses. He's
13 unable to come on Friday or next week, and that is a problem. So if
14 there's no way we can deal with that, we'll have to drop him.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Except that there is the Monday and the Tuesday of
16 the following week, is there not? You see, the sitting has to finish on
17 the Tuesday of the last week because there is a Plenary meeting of the
18 Judges for three days.
19 MR. DOMAZET: Yes.
20 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want there to be a very long period if we can
21 avoid it between your witnesses, because the Prosecution obviously will
22 have somebody in reply, if only in relation to the X-ray issue.
23 Anyway, we can look at that one again at the beginning of next
24 week, remembering that we won't be sitting on Thursday of next week.
25 Now, about your case in reply, if you're able to give us any
1 indication, Mr. Groome.
2 MR. GROOME: I'm still trying to make a determination and
3 evaluation of what the Prosecution will call in reply, but in relation to
4 what Mr. Domazet has said, I am making efforts to bring witnesses at the
5 end of next week. It seems it will probably be prudent for me to put
6 those on hold until we make a final decision about Dr. Stojkovic.
7 JUDGE HUNT: I agree. I would not like the Defence case to suffer
8 if only it means that we will be sitting for a few days taking evidence
9 perhaps at the beginning of next term, subject to the Serbian Christmas
10 Day, of course.
11 MR. GROOME: I can say to the Court at this stage that I cannot
12 imagine that the reply case will be more than a week and it probably will
13 be less than a week.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I hope so. The most important thing I want to
15 emphasise yet again is that the written submissions should be well under
16 way. We just cannot give you a week or so off to do those. They should
17 be well under preparation now. Whatever days we're not sitting next week,
18 those should be taken advantage of to keep going on those written
19 submissions, and of course during the vacation.
20 When we do have a case in reply, my suggestion is that the
21 submissions be made in relation to those -- that evidence, they can be
22 made orally. We need to get on to the case and get it concluded,
23 otherwise, there are going to be two very real problems. One of our
24 members has to start another case, I think on the 21st of January, and
25 there is no way that we can really expect anybody to sit in two cases at
1 the same time. I know the Prosecutor had certain views about that, but
2 they have proved to be utterly discredited by attempts made in both
3 tribunals to follow that practice.
4 The other thing is we only have three courtrooms and there will be
5 six trials running next year throughout the whole year, and unless you
6 want to go to Utrecht, we won't be able to hear the case. Indeed, I think
7 even the Utrecht or the Camp Zeist courtroom is being used for the appeal
8 in the Lockerbie case during January, so we are in a lot of trouble.
9 All right. So on that grim warning, we will adjourn now and
10 resume at 9.30 in the morning.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to
12 be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of November,
13 2001, at 9.30 a.m.