1 Wednesday, 7 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 -- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
6 IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon. Counsel and the parties would be
8 aware that the Chamber insists on punctuality. It's a matter both of
9 courtesy and a matter of efficiency, and -- but notwithstanding the
10 desirability of that, from time to time problems do arise, and in this
11 case the Chamber must apologise for the inconvenience to counsel and the
12 parties for taking the bench a little late.
13 Thank you. Yes, may I have the -- I was about to ask for the
14 appearances, but Ms. Korner, you were on your feet. Were you about to
15 say something?
16 MS. KORNER: I was about to announce the appearances.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. It's Joanna Korner,
19 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution today.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Appearing for
21 Stanisic Defence Slobodan Zecevic, Mr. Slobodan Cvijetic to my right and
22 then our case manager Ms. Tatjana Savic. Thank you.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Zupljanin Defence:
24 Igor Pantelic, Mr. Dragan Krgovic, Mr. Brent Hicks, and Mr. Eric Tully.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So noted.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, there's one matter I need to raise
3 before the witness comes into court, which relates to the evidence of the
4 witness. The second matter is I believe Your Honours have been informed
5 about the problem that has arisen with the witness next week through
6 VWS's contact with the witness. I'm not sure how it's going to be
7 resolved at the moment, but it may cause yet again, I'm afraid, a
8 possible gap. Can I say we were unaware of the fact that he couldn't
9 travel, apparently.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: 150?
11 MS. KORNER: I believe so. It's the one that VWS contacted
12 Ms. Featherstone about -- Mrs. Featherstone.
13 Your Honours, then in relation to the next witness, he's the
14 first witness that falls into the category that I said something about my
15 opening; namely, he is connected with the events that happened in Kotor
16 Varos, if I can put it that way, from the side of the defendants,
18 Your Honours, it's a matter for Your Honours, but I feel I ought
19 to remind Your Honours of Rule 90(E). I should tell Your Honours that he
20 was interviewed on two occasion by the Office of the Prosecutor as a
21 suspect. So he was given his rights not to answer questions. He did
22 answer questions then, but that was a right that was given to him at the
23 time. So as I say, I think it's really a matter for Your Honours to make
24 the decision as to whether any warning needs to be given and, if so, at
25 what stage, but I thought I'd better remind Your Honours of that.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Does he fall under the category of witnesses
2 covered by Rule 90 -- yes, he does.
3 MS. KORNER: He's Rule 90(E).
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER: He comes or it was thought -- or it's a rather odd
6 rule now as -- under the definition of a suspect in Rule 2.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, so he does not require any protective
9 measures, and so, Your Honours, the next witness is Nedjelko Djekanovic.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner and Counsels, I would like to make a
11 request to the parties in relation to the witness statements. Yesterday
12 there was reference across the courtroom to the statements made or given
13 by the previous witness, and Defence counsels raised at several occasions
14 the statements and confronted the earlier statements to the witness
15 directly, and the Prosecution in return sought also to rebut the evidence
16 offered by the witness in response to the challenge made by the Defence
17 counsels arising out of his earlier statement.
18 For this reason, I would like to ask the parties to in the future
19 to submit also the earlier statements to the Chamber as they're being
20 exchanged to the other party.
21 MS. KORNER: Is that in relation -- in relation just to the
22 92 ter witnesses or to viva voce witnesses?
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm fully aware of the controversial aspect of
24 this request, but my request would be for both, both for viva voce and
25 for 92 ter witnesses.
1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, may I say in my last trial here
2 certainly the Judges had copies particularly of these interviews. I
3 think we're perfectly prepared to supply them.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mrs. Korner. Thank you, Counsels.
5 JUDGE HALL: At yesterday's adjournment counsel would recall that
6 I had indicated there was a possibility of us sitting on Thursday and
7 Friday in the mornings. We can now confirm that we would be sitting
8 tomorrow morning and Friday morning, and I'm giving this early heads-up
9 so that counsel can arrange their affairs accordingly.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 WITNESS: NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. President, if I may please address the Chamber
16 in relation to your announcement of times of sitting for tomorrow. I
17 really kindly ask you. This is a very unique situation that we have here
18 today given the importance of this witness for the Defence, and then if
19 possible in future if we have similar situation then to have possibility
20 to -- not to jump from the evening session to the morning, because we
21 have to prepare cross-examination, to check many documents. I agree
22 ruling is absolutely accepted, but just to have in mind that in specific
23 situation when we have very serious questions -- sorry, witnesses for the
24 Defence that that should be taken in mind.
25 Thank you so much in advance. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.
2 Good afternoon, sir. Thank you for your appearance here this
3 afternoon. The -- what is your name?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nedjelko Djekanovic.
5 JUDGE HALL: And your date of birth?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 15th of November, 1958
7 JUDGE HALL: And -- and what is your ethnicity, sir?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.
9 JUDGE HALL: Have you testified previously in this -- in these
10 proceedings, the proceedings of this Tribunal?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not before this Tribunal but
12 before some other court organs.
13 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... [overlapping
14 speakers] ... Sorry, my microphone may have been off. What is your
15 profession or occupation, sir?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mechanical engineer.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 Ms. Korner, you may proceed.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
20 Examination by Ms. Korner:
21 Q. Mr. Djekanovic --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, let me start by setting the background to how you
25 come to be here as a witness. I think it's right that you were
1 interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor on two occasions.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The first on the 12th of June of 2003.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And secondly, on the 25th of March of this year.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Before speaking to the Office of the Prosecutor in March of this
8 year, I think it's right that you spoke to or had an interview with the
9 Defence for Stojan Zupljanin in this case, in particular Mr. Pantelic; is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes, we spoke briefly.
12 Q. And you've had an opportunity to speak to the Defence since your
13 arrival in The Hague
14 this morning?
15 A. We met last night over a cup of coffee.
16 Q. All right. And finally, I think it's right that you are
17 testifying here not voluntarily but because a summons was issued by this
18 court which you are obeying.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You've been asked for your occupation presently. Can I deal with
21 your past occupations. I think at the time of the multi-party elections
22 in 1990, were you a member of the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party?
23 A. Yes, I was a member of the SDS then as I am now.
24 Q. And as a member of that party, did you stand for election to the
25 Assembly of, as it was then, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
2 A. Yes. I was a candidate for the municipal assembly of the
3 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I won at the first multi-party
4 elections, and I became a deputy representing the municipality of Kotor
6 Q. All right. So is that what's called the Chamber of the
7 Municipalities of the Assembly?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were elected, is this right, for -- to the Municipal
10 Assembly of Kotor Varos?
11 A. Yes. I was also a deputy to the Municipal Assembly of Kotor
13 Q. Right. I want to ask you, please, a little bit, first of all,
14 about Kotor Varos. Firstly, I think it was pretty evenly ethnically
15 divided; is that right?
16 A. Kotor Varos municipality had around 36.000 inhabitants.
17 According to the census of 1991, Serbs comprised over 36 per cent of that
18 population, nearly 14.000. Muslims had slightly over 10.000 inhabitants,
19 and Croats were somewhat less, 9.000 plus. In such an ethnic make-up
20 when everyone voted for the Assembly as an SDS representative and a Serb,
21 I won in the second round of elections.
22 Q. Dealing with what happened after those elections as regards
23 positions in the Assembly and elsewhere, did Ante (sic) Mandic of the
24 HDZ, the Croat party, become the president of the Municipal Assembly?
25 A. Yes. Anto Mandic did become the president of the Municipal
1 Assembly of Kotor Varos, but after an agreement had been reached with the
2 SDS and at the level of the three parties' leadership, it was agreed that
3 at local levels the party which received the most votes can appoint their
4 own person at -- at the position of the Municipal Assembly president. In
5 Kotor Varos the SDS was that party, and pursuant to the agreement we
6 could appoint the Assembly president.
7 In agreement with the HDZ, we agreed that they appoint a person
8 to that position. The person was Anto Mandic. We as the SDS took the
9 second position that had originally been allocated to the HDZ, to the
10 Croats, that is to say, and that person was supposed to be the deputy
11 president Assembly.
12 Q. Right. You, however, did you not, took the position of chairman
13 of the Executive Committee of the Assembly; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And as you've pointed out because you in fact got more votes in
16 the election, you could have had the Presidency of the Municipal
17 Assembly. Why did you decide to take the Executive Committee?
18 A. We couldn't have both the president of the Assembly and the
19 President of the Executive Board. We were allowed to appoint a person to
20 the post of the Presidency of the Municipal Assembly, but in agreement
21 with the Croats we swapped the two places, and actually it was Momcilo
22 Komljenovic who came President of the Executive Board, not myself. The
23 reasons were that we were of the opinion, politically speaking, that it
24 was favourable for us to have a President of the Executive Board from
25 amongst our ranks, because that person was in charge of many programmes
1 such as development in Kotor Varos. Such programmes were mainly
2 discussed at the Executive Board, and that is why we decided to opt for
3 that position. That decision was not unanimously agreed upon in -- by
4 the SDS. It was simply a majority vote that decided.
5 Q. All right. In the light of the composition of the -- of the
6 three parties, which I think reflected the -- as it were, the ethnic
7 make-up, did the SDS have an absolute majority in the Assembly?
8 A. No. No party had an absolute majority. The SDS had only a
9 relative majority.
10 Q. So it follows from that that if the SDS and the HDZ decided to
11 band together, they could out-vote the SDS; is that right?
12 A. If we are to look into the statute and decisions of the Municipal
13 Assembly of Kotor Varos, such options were not included. But if we go by
14 the simple number of votes, then they could.
15 Q. Then as far as the SDS is concerned, were you in fact president
16 of the municipal SDS board in Kotor Varos?
17 A. Not at the time of the multi-party elections but shortly
18 afterwards. I believe as of February or January. I cannot recall
19 precisely. It was then that I took charge of the SDS board in Kotor
20 Varos. Later on, I was also president of the municipal SDS board of the
21 Kotor Varos as well as several -- I took up several other positions in
22 the party.
23 Q. All right. Did that Presidency within the Municipal Board give
24 you a seat on the Regional Board of the SDS based in Banja Luka?
25 A. I do not recall whether automatically all municipal SDS
1 presidents became members of the Regional Board. I tend not to think
2 that way, but in any case, I frequently participated at Regional Board
3 meetings of the SDS, including some other party members from Kotor Varos.
4 Q. And was that Regional Board presided over by somebody called
5 Dr. Vukic?
6 A. Chronologically speaking, I cannot recall the persons who
7 occupied that position. There were several of them, and I don't know in
8 what term they came, but I think for a while Dr. Vukic was the president
9 of the SDS Regional Board.
10 Q. Now, at this stage in 1991, were you a member of the Main Board
11 of the SDS?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you later become a member of the Main Board?
14 A. I became a member of the Main Board of the party in 1996, 1997,
15 or 1998. At any case, during that period and not during the period that
16 you are asking me about.
17 Q. I want to ask you in a moment a few more questions about how the
18 structure of the SDS worked, but can I ask you now to look at some
19 photographs and maps which relate to Kotor Varos, and let's deal with
20 that at this stage.
21 First of all, could you have a look at a map which shows the very
22 ethnic breakdown, which is 65 ter number 10117.
23 I think you had a opportunity to look at this yesterday when you
24 went through a bundle of documents. Can you just tell us, we can see
25 there the, as it were, the majority nationality is shown for each of
1 these villages. Do you accept that's an accurate map?
2 A. Could we please zoom in? Yes, for the most part.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you.
4 A. For the most part it is correct.
5 Q. Well, do you want to suggest that there's -- if you think there
6 are some aspects which are not correct, then do tell us, sir.
7 A. You cannot depict such a diverse ethnic make-up on a single map
8 in Kotor Varos. There were villages which were mixed, and yet here they
9 are shown as single ethnicity villages, although there was significant
10 populations of other ethnicities there.
11 Generally speaking, this was so. That is not in dispute. The
12 town of Kotor Varos itself had a Serb majority.
13 Q. Yes. As I say, sir, I accept entirely that even in villages
14 which are marked as Muslim ones there were other ethnicities living
16 Actually, I don't need to bother about the next map. Could you
17 have a look, please, at --
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, could I -- I'm not sure we've made
19 this an exhibit. No, we haven't. Could I ask that be exhibited.
20 JUDGE HALL: Entered -- marked and entered.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P65, Your Honours.
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. Next, can I ask that you have a look, please, at 65 ter number
25 Now, sir, you had a chance to look at this yesterday, and indeed
1 I think you -- from the original one that you looked at, you made some
2 corrections because you said that the sawmill had been put in the wrong
3 place. Can you confirm now that the photographs of the various buildings
4 are shown in the right place on the map?
5 A. It seems to me that the SJB building, that is to say the police
6 building, is not in the proper location. The hospital is more or less
7 positioned well. Between the Catholic church and the hospital it is
8 there that the police building should be. On a map we saw yesterday, we
9 can see that clearly, and I believe we marked it as such.
10 The last facility on the right-hand side, although I don't have
11 translation here, is something that I'm not aware of.
12 Q. All right. Well, it's said to be the Kotor Varos prison, or a
13 building that was used as a prison.
14 A. That is possible, next to the court. In terms of physical
15 location this could be it, yes.
16 Q. So, can I -- you say that the SJB building should be between
17 what, the hospital -- the Catholic church and the --
18 A. Yes. It is now and it was so. It's still in the same location.
19 Q. Okay. So it should be between the Catholic church and where the
20 hospital is shown, but on the main road; is that right?
21 A. Yes, on the main road. Somewhat closer to the hospital than to
22 the Catholic church.
23 Q. All right. And can you just, because it's not indicated here,
24 could you tell us where the municipal building was, where the Municipal
25 Assembly sat?
1 A. The Municipal Assembly building is further away from the court
2 and the prison you marked here. It is further down on this map by a few
3 hundred metres.
4 Q. Do you mean it's not shown on the map at all?
5 A. Yeah, that's right. Actually, it cannot be placed here on this
6 part of the map that we can see.
7 Q. Okay. So it's further down from where we've indicated the
8 prison. That's what you're saying, is it?
9 A. Yes, a bit lower.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, do you think the witness can actually
11 mark with a pencil.
12 MS. KORNER: No, I don't. Can he? I have no idea.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think so. It would be useful to see exactly
14 where the prison is.
15 MS. KORNER: Apparently he can mark on the board.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mr. Witness. Could you tell us by
18 putting a small circle and a "P" where the prison is according to your --
19 to your observation.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in the correct place, the
21 prison. It would be more or less here. The prison is in the correct
22 position, because I determined the location of the municipality on the
23 basis of the location of the prison. So here I think it is in the proper
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the SJB building?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. And could you put a small "P" to
3 indicate this is the -- sorry, SJB, could you just write "SJB" next to
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER:
8 Q. All right. Now -- sorry. The distance between the SJB building
9 and the municipal building was how much, because maps can sometimes be
11 A. In my estimate it would be some 800 metres. Perhaps it could be
12 a hundred metres up or down, but it's about 800 metres away.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. That's -- that's all I'm going to ask
14 you. I may ask you to look at some photographs at some other stage,
15 because we've got some new photographs.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me. While we're on the same topic, maybe
17 it would be appropriate the witness mark sawmill, because I think he
18 mentioned that it was not the right position on the map so maybe we could
19 clarify that.
20 MS. KORNER: No, this is the corrected version. He mentioned
21 that yesterday and we corrected it. I'll get --
22 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, sorry.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Sir, could you confirm that is where the sawmill is -- was, in
25 certainly 1992?
1 A. It's more or less in the same place. The sawmill was opposite
2 from the Catholic church, across the street from the Catholic church. To
3 the right side on the exit road from Kotor Varos towards Banja Luka was
4 the Catholic church, and then on the opposite side of the road is the
6 Q. All right. So -- yes. I think what you were being asked to
7 confirm is that it's shown correctly on this map.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you wish --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you want to tender it?
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P66, Your Honours.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, just one clarification, Your Honours.
14 In a previous case -- this is just one comment. In a previous case, we
15 would have a problem with -- with the documents which were marked by the
16 witness, and they have been given an IT number in order to not to mix
17 with the original document which is tendered by the Prosecution, which,
18 for example, is a map of Kotor Varos, P66. So I'm just suggesting that
19 anyway we just -- we just give it some -- some kind of indication that
20 this is a map which the witness has drawn upon. Thank you very much.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, you are absolutely right, and I
23 guess the Court was simply not quick enough on its feet to -- to make an
24 observation about this.
25 In general terms, I think the Court would prefer not to have
1 pre-marked maps being presented in court unless it's for -- for other
2 purpose, but in instances like this where the witness is being shown a
3 map and could you please point out where this or that is, I think it's
4 the safest to ask him to do so in court.
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, just so I follow. Sorry.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours, but still when the
7 witness like in this case has marked the map in the court, it is my
8 understanding of the e-court that the -- that the photo is taken of that
9 particular document where there is his markings where -- which he just
10 shown to us like SJB. There is a photo made and it's downloaded in a
11 memory. That is my understanding.
12 So this document is somewhat different than the original P66
13 which was given by the OTP, and I -- and it is my understanding that such
14 documents where the witness marks them are given an IC number, IC number.
15 Well, that was -- that was the case in our previous case, and that was
16 the explanation we were given during the -- during the e-court training.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm just -- better
19 clarify this right now. I overheard what you were discussing. I'm
20 sorry, but it was heard over here.
21 Now, I understand our P66 is a marked map. Okay. The situation
22 might be the following: One -- the witness which is -- which is proposed
23 by the Prosecution does not mark. He recognises the map. He says it's
25 Now, I call -- I call that particular document during my
1 cross-examination, and then I show him, let's say P66, and then he draws
2 on the map. So what -- and I ask that document to be tendered. What are
3 we going to do then? I mean --
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, I think if you want somebody else to
5 put another drawing on the original map, then you just call up the
6 document and you ask your witness to put on it whatever he wants to put.
7 So then that becomes a new Exhibit.
8 P66 is now this map with this witness's marking. The original
9 map has not been tendered into evidence, and it doesn't need to be, for
10 all I know.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honours, please -- I beg you to bear with
12 me. It might be the situation where the actual position of the CJB (sic)
13 might be an issue. It might be an issue. It might be the situation
14 where this witness will show where in his opinion or his recollection the
15 CJB was, and the other witness might say it was cross the river. Now, if
16 I show the next witness which comes and he says the CJB was across the
17 river, of course it doesn't make sense that I show him the -- the map
18 which was marked by this witness. It should be the original map we --
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. I think we're talking past each other.
20 The map as you see it on the screen now has not been tendered into
21 evidence. It lies as a document that can be pulled up at any time in the
22 form and shape it has just now.
23 Now, if you have a witness and there is another witness and
24 there's disagreement about where the SJB building was, then you can
25 confront your witness with this witness's marking and you can tell him
1 that, you know, another witness claimed it was here. Then you revert to
2 the original map, and you ask your witness then to indicate where he
3 thinks or she thinks the SJB building was, and then in the end we can sit
4 with two maps.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. I just thought that
6 it -- this, what I was proposing, was much simpler to deal with, but if
7 Your Honours please. Thank you very much.
8 MS. KORNER: As you know, I mean, this system is new to me since
9 I was last here, but the way we dealt with it, and it seems sensible,
10 what we want exhibited is an original unmarked map so we can pull that up
11 at any time, and then our suggestion would have been that this is marked,
12 the map -- the copy that's being marked by this witness is P60, whatever
13 it is, .1. So at least we know that's what it is and it reflects on the
14 transcript and it's quite simple, and I see both sides nodding.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: We fully agree with -- this is exactly what I was
16 talking about. Thank you, Ms. Korner.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: We agree.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: To complete the confusion, we are now being
21 instructed or told or advised by the registry that this is -- what we
22 have just agreed on is in fact impractical. The 65 ter exhibit that you
23 had showing the witness's pre-markings should remain as such. It has not
24 been admitted into evidence, but it remains a 65 ter number.
25 Now, if anyone wishes to use the same map unmarked, that is to
1 say without the witness's pre-markings, which is to go back to the very
2 original version of this document before the witness actually marked it
3 out, then that should be given a 65 ter number so that the Defence can
4 use the raw original version of the map for any subsequent purpose.
5 MS. KORNER: Right.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I still --
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Got it now.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes. I was going to say perhaps, Your Honour, we
10 can try and sort this out maybe at the end of the session.
11 Q. Okay. All right. Mr. Djekanovic, we'll leave for the moment
12 what Kotor Varos look like. Can I ask you next about your knowledge of
13 the two accused.
14 Firstly, you told us you were a member of the Assembly, the
15 Chamber of Municipalities in the Socialist Republic
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Did you then subsequently become a deputy to the --
17 the Assembly, as it was then called, of the Serbian Republic
18 and Herzegovina
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. As such, did you ever meet Mico Stanisic?
21 A. I met Mico Stanisic during the Assembly sessions. We didn't have
22 any private or official contacts other than that. I knew him as a man
23 who worked on the same tasks and in similar organs that I did, but we
24 didn't have any other contacts or things in common.
25 Q. And which organs did he work on that -- that you did? Or which
1 tasks, sorry, first of all?
2 A. He worked in the MUP organs. I don't know what all the posts he
3 had were. I really cannot remember after all this time. Many people and
4 a lot of time has passed since then, so I don't know exactly which posts
5 he was serving in. I think for a time he was perhaps a minister as well.
6 Q. I'm just asking you about your answer. "I knew him as a man who
7 worked on the same tasks." I was just asking you what tasks.
8 A. Members of the government and ministers attended the Assembly
9 sessions of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. All right. But you say you didn't have any private contacts
11 or -- or official contacts other than in the Assembly?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Well, let's turn to Stojan Zupljanin. When did you
14 first meet him?
15 A. I met Stojan Zupljanin after the first multi-party elections in
16 1990. That was the first time that I met him. I didn't know him before
17 then. It's true that Stojan is from our municipality, but he was a man
18 who worked in the MUP structures, and before he had worked in Banja Luka
19 so I didn't have the opportunity to get to know him before.
20 Q. And how did you come to meet him after the first multi-party
22 A. We first met during the process of the elections during the
23 candidacy process for the chief of the CSB in Banja Luka. That's when we
24 met. And members of all the Municipal Boards from all the municipalities
25 put forward their candidate. So we were happy that a person who is from
1 our municipality was also put forward as a candidate. So he did have our
2 support and the support of other municipalities for the post of chief of
3 the public security centre in Banja Luka, the CSB in Banja Luka.
4 Q. All right. So you were supporting him as chief of the CSB. What
5 qualities, in your view, did he possess to become chief of the CSB?
6 A. I wasn't the only one who offered my support. He had the support
7 of the entire party in the Kotor Varos region, all the people from our
8 party from Kotor Varos. To tell the truth, we didn't even discuss any
9 abilities or at the time, at any structure level, not just within the SDS
10 but within any political party, the criteria was not based on abilities
11 or aptitude. It was just the time that had dictated that certain people
12 be elected to certain positions. Ultimately we were there from the
13 beginning, and he was working on these police jobs anyway, so it was
14 natural that he was an educated man. He had worked through those
15 structures and was familiar with them.
16 Q. All right. But you said that a number of Municipal Boards were
17 putting forward candidates for this position. So you voted for him, is
18 that what you're saying, simply because he came from Kotor Varos?
19 A. One of the main reasons was that he was our candidate, just like
20 others put other candidates forward because they were closer to them,
21 although there were some other reasons too.
22 Q. Okay. Well, what were the other reasons?
23 A. Oh, I said that there were no other reasons --
24 Q. No other reasons.
25 A. -- due to which we --
1 Q. All right. Between that election which I think was May of 1991
2 and June of 1992, how often did you see Stojan Zupljanin?
3 A. Now after so much time has passed I cannot really say how
4 frequently we saw each other. I mean, we did see each other. We did run
5 into each other, but I really couldn't say how often that was. Just by
6 the nature of our work. There was no need for us to really meet, but we
7 did meet often during 1992.
8 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to deal with some of the events where
9 you came across him in a moment.
10 Can I next ask you, as I said I would, about SDS and their
11 policies. Who formulated the policies for the S --
12 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm sorry, just one correction for the transcript.
13 The witness just said "we didn't met often during 1992," and the
14 transcript, page 22, line 4, it says "we did met."
15 MS. KORNER: But that's what I heard over the translation as
17 Q. Sir, I'll repeat the question. Between the elections and -- the
18 election of Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the CSB and June of 1992, did
19 you say that you met him often in 1992 or not often?
20 A. Not often. It was the nature of our work that we didn't really
21 need to meet often. We were not working on the same tasks.
22 Q. All right. Well, then I'll come back to the SDS. I was asking
23 you, please, who formulated SDS policy?
24 A. Could you be a bit more specific, please?
25 Q. Yes. Who was it -- you've told us about a Main Board, a Regional
1 Board, and the Municipal Boards of the SDS. If there was a policy to be
2 followed, who would decide what that policy was? Would it be the Main
3 Board or the Regional Board or the Municipal Board?
4 A. Depending on the level. The policy and the procedure of adopting
5 decisions is regulated by the statute of the party, so every level of the
6 party had its own statute. The municipal, regional, and the republican
7 structures or the SDS top leadership had those. So depending on the
8 level, the policy of the party was adopted pursuant to the statutory
9 norms at the party organs. And pursuant to who had lesser or a greater
10 influence in the adoption of these decisions.
11 Q. All right. Well, let's -- let's start with the stop. If the
12 Main Board of the SDS made a decision, was it the obligation under the
13 statute for that decision to be put into effect by the Regional Board and
14 then the Municipal Board?
15 A. If possible, yes, but in many cases there were many exceptions
16 where literally some decision which was of a general nature could not be
17 applied at all levels and in all areas. There was some instances like
18 that in our region of Kotor Varos as well.
19 Q. All right. Well, perhaps you can just to illustrate give us one
20 example of where the Main Board made the decision which you couldn't put
21 into effect in the Kotor Varos region.
22 A. The first decision was the election of the president of the
23 municipality. The position of the negotiating team of the SDS that
24 reached an agreement with the SDA and the HDZ, according to the majority
25 votes, was not implemented. There was a different decision that was
1 actually implemented. Our position was the one that took prevalence.
2 There was another item where the three national parties were
3 deadlocked, and we could not find a solution on this matter, so we had to
4 negotiate in Sarajevo
5 resolutions at a higher level, even split up certain departments in order
6 to satisfy all these needs, and this is how we resolved that particular
7 matter. Usually it just depended from case to case how this was done.
8 Q. All right. But you're saying here, are you - I just want to make
9 sure that we've all understood - that you couldn't -- when you were
10 deadlocked in your municipality, you had to go back to Sarajevo
11 main boards of all three parties to renegotiate. Is that what you're
12 saying? I just want to make sure we've understood this.
13 A. No. We didn't have to go, but the common mutual agreement at the
14 level of the municipality was to try to restructure the composition of
15 power and in that way try to achieve a solution.
16 Q. All right. Well, I think we're slightly drifting away. So
17 you're saying there were two -- at least two matters --
18 MR. ZECEVIC: I have an intervention in the transcript. I
19 believe the witness said that they have reached the common mutual
20 agreement at the level of municipality to ask the three parties in
22 MS. KORNER: Well, yes, that's what I understood him to be -- to
23 be saying as well.
24 Q. And that is what you're saying, is it, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. So does it come to this: You had a certain amount of
2 autonomy within the Municipal Board, but for major matters you had to go
3 back to the Main Board in Sarajevo
4 A. Each Municipal Board had a rather comprehensive autonomy in its
5 work, as well as the understanding on the part of the party leadership.
6 The situation on the ground was quite specific, and not all principles
7 could be applied across the board in all municipalities. There were many
8 elements which required separate approaches, and for such problems there
9 was always understanding for in the Main Board of the party. And in
10 several other instances and periods, you can see for yourself that the
11 decisions made by the local party boards were those that were later
13 I don't think I can say that there were tensions or conflicts
14 along those lines. In any case, the Main Board always took into account
15 local opinions even though such opinions may have been contrary to the
16 policies of the party or the opinions of those in the leadership.
17 Q. Well, you say it took into account local opinion. Are you saying
18 that as a result of local opinion, the decision, if it was -- I'm sorry.
19 If it was contrary to a policy, then the policy would be changed?
20 A. At the local level there were no key or important decisions which
21 would deviate significantly from the policy of the party. But on the
22 other hand, the policy did not strictly limit or try to impose
23 hierarchical solutions so as to have every single word of the president
25 I can say with full responsibility that in my political career,
1 sometimes my positions were such that would oppose the rest of the party,
2 and I know that such opinion existed in certain local boards of the
3 party. Even today you meet such situations in the work of the various
4 political parties across Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 Q. All right. Well, I think we're going to look at one particular
6 document in a moment. Can I next turn to the topic of regionalisation.
7 Was that, in fact, a policy that was adopted by the SDS to begin
9 A. If you want me to be honest, the SDS always stood against
10 regionalisation. SDS policy was not regionalisation but, rather, an
11 attempt at centralisation. Although, I must say again that all separate
12 needs were taken into account for regional organisations. During a
13 certain period the regional boards were even abolished and then again
14 reinstated and mentioned in the statute. So the situation changed.
15 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to ask you to look, please, at a
16 document which is 65 ter number 5, please. And can we -- which you had a
17 chance to look at yesterday.
18 Is that headed "Agreement on the Formation of a Community of
19 Bosnian Krajina Municipalities
20 including Kotor Varos?
21 A. Yes. That is what it says. But it is important to say,
22 mentioning this document, that the community of Bosnian Krajina
23 municipalities had existed as part of the SFRY, as well as
24 Republika Srpska. That community had existed even prior to World War II.
25 Kotor Varos, by virtue of its natural geographical position and other
1 historical, cultural, traffic and developmental elements gravitated
2 towards Banja Luka, and it was always a part of that region.
3 Q. Yes, but the -- you're not saying -- this was a different type of
4 organisation, wasn't it, Mr. Djekanovic?
5 A. I don't know what you have in mind specifically in what way was
6 it different. But there must have been a number of municipalities which
7 were new to such a community. If we compare its statutory role in the
8 former Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the current
9 status, we would see that the similarities are great. Of course, certain
10 municipalities did not used to belong to the community, but that is not
11 the case with Kotor Varos [as interpreted].
12 Q. The difference was this -- between this and the one you've just
13 mentioned is this was in fact made up entirely, wasn't it, or almost
14 entirely of Serb --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, another intervention in the transcript. 27,
16 8, the witness said Kotor Varos was always within this community of the
17 municipalities. Thank you very much. This was left out from the
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. All right. Can we go back to -- can I have the document back
22 All right. The delegates to this association were, if not a
23 hundred per cent, pretty much Serb delegates, weren't they?
24 A. I do not deny that it was so in that period of time, but that
25 policy existed across all levels, regions, and environments. Here we had
1 Serbs. In some other locations we had Croats and Muslims jointly, and no
2 one was bothered by that when they made decisions, although in the
3 statute and the constitution of the then Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 it clearly stated that a decision on the part of one people would not be
5 accepted as valid. Although at certain point they -- this was accepted.
6 Of course, in this environment, Serbs were the only delegates because
7 others refused to participate.
8 Q. And why did others refuse to participate?
9 A. Because they had the concept of centralisation of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what we can see now in which one or two peoples would
11 have power over a third. Those people tried to create ties between
12 communities which had never lived together. We had the case of
13 Ante Kotormanovic [as interpreted] who signed a decision that was made
14 public. That decision had to do with the signing of Kotor Varos with the
15 association of the municipality of Herceg-Bosna
16 the spring and it was done without the support of any Serb delegates.
17 This was simply the situation on all three sides at the time.
18 Q. So this was a -- leaving aside Herceg-Bosna -- and I'm not
19 seeking to argue --
20 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. Please, just a correction to the
21 transcript. It's at page 28, line 10 and 9. Correct name should be
22 Ante Mandic was at that time president of Kotor Varos municipality. Yes,
23 and that was the association of municipality of Herceg-Bosna, another
24 correction in line 11 and 12. Thank you.
25 MS. KORNER:
1 Q. This association of Bosnian Krajina municipalities transformed
2 itself, didn't it, into something called the Assembly of the Autonomous
3 Region of Krajina?
4 A. Yes, it is possible.
5 Q. No, not it's possible. You attended meetings, didn't you
6 Mr. Djekanovic, of both the association and the Assembly of the
7 Autonomous Region of Krajina?
8 A. Yes, I did attend such meetings.
9 Q. And if we look, please, at a second document --
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask that this be admitted now as
11 an exhibit.
12 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P67, Your Honours.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
15 Can we move now, please, to a document which is a list of
16 delegates, which is 65 ter 3107, please. Could we have the English up as
17 well, please. English? Anybody? All right. There's a problem,
18 apparently, with the English. Could we -- if we go in -- because we've
19 got numbers even though it's in Cyrillic, to 172, 173, and 174. It's on
20 page 4 of the document.
21 Right. Next page, please, page 4. Thank you.
22 Q. Is 172, sir, Momcilo Komljenovic, from Kotor Varos?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And he's the gentleman who you told us became head of the
25 Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly; is that right?
1 A. Yes. Yes. After the multi-party elections in 1990, he became
2 president of the Executive Board.
3 Q. Goran Krzic, who was he? Who is number 173?
4 A. I don't know what period this is, but at that time he was the
5 president of the municipal SDS and the president of the Municipal
6 Assembly of Kotor Varos elected at the elections.
7 Q. And Savo Tepic?
8 A. Also he was the deputy appointed as the chief of the police
9 station in Kotor Varos.
10 Q. Right. And can you tell us why the police chief from Kotor Varos
11 would be attending the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?
12 A. If you tell me the precise dates -- date of this document and if
13 I could recall things so well 17 years later, I would tell you that I
14 presume that he was not there as the chief of police of the Kotor Varos
15 municipality but as the president of the local SDS board. Perhaps I
16 could not attend. Perhaps I was at the time attending a session of the
17 Republika Srpska Assembly at Pale. That is possible, but in terms of
18 date I cannot recall exactly. I'm not sure -- I am sure he was not there
19 in his capacity as the chief of the police station in Kotor Varos.
20 Q. All right. Well, I can't -- I'm afraid I can't assist with the
21 date because it's not a dated document.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that now be admitted?
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes. And -- admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P68, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL: And it is now time for the break. Twenty minutes.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 -- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
3 -- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, just before we leave the Assembly of the
7 Autonomous Region of Krajina, the president of that Assembly was somebody
8 called Vojo Kupresanin. That's right, isn't it?
9 A. I think so. He was.
10 Q. Sorry? He was. Oh, I see. And the vice --
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. And the vice-president was Radoslav Brdjanin.
13 A. I don't know the entire structure, whether there was an executive
14 body of sorts, but in any case, Radoslav Brdjanin was the man number two.
15 Q. Right. And as we'll hear, when it came to the Crisis Staff of
16 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, which came out of the Assembly, it was
17 Radoslav Brdjanin who became the president of the Crisis Staff, wasn't
19 A. From this seat here it's difficult for me to recall all the
20 details. I know he was the president of the Crisis Staff of the Krajina.
21 I only don't know whether it was throughout the entire period the Crisis
22 Staff existed or not.
23 Q. All right. And you knew both Kupresanin and Brdjanin, didn't
24 you, because they were, like you, members of the Assembly of the -- I'm
25 going to call it the Republika Srpska. I know it didn't change its name
1 till much later, but they were both members of the Republika Srpska
2 Assembly, weren't they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. I want to move now, please, to the events which led
5 to the -- effectively the -- first of all, the declaration of the Serbian
7 Were you present at the meeting in October of 1991 of the Bosnia
8 Assembly, the socialist Republic of Bosnia
10 A. Yes, I was present at that meeting.
11 Q. And were you present at the founding session of the Assembly of
12 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes, I was present.
14 Q. Now, let's look, please, at what happened at the end of 1991. In
15 December of 1991, did you receive a copy of a set of instructions which
16 had been issued by the Main Board?
17 MS. KORNER: And can I have, please, 65 ter 2333.
18 Q. It's a document entitled "SDS Main Board." The one we've got is
19 "strictly confidential," copy number 93, "Instructions for the
20 organisation and operation of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia
22 Did you get a copy of those instructions? And when I say you,
23 not particularly you personally, but you the SDS party in Kotor Varos?
24 A. I have to say that we did have access to that document. At what
25 stage -- during what period of time we actually were able to access it is
1 something I cannot tell you, but I would kindly ask the Chamber to allow
2 me to add something to the last two responses which I believe are
3 important. It has to do with things which preceded this decision of the
4 Serb representatives to form a separate Assembly, if I may.
5 Q. You've asked Your Honours.
6 MS. KORNER: It's up to Your Honours to allow him.
7 JUDGE HALL: Inasmuch as he's being led by counsel, counsel would
8 know what their respective cases are and we'll see where we go. If the
9 Chamber wishes clarification at the appropriate stage, it would do that,
10 but there's always a reluctance of witnesses to volunteer testimony.
11 MS. KORNER: Can I say straightaway I have no idea what he wants
12 to say.
13 JUDGE HALL: Hence the general reluctance to have witnesses
14 volunteer, Ms. Korner.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, it's not exactly my witness in the way that one
16 would normally say it's my witness.
17 Q. But, sir, we have limited time, but if there's something you feel
18 is important that the Trial Chamber should know, then could you tell them
19 very briefly.
20 A. Yes, its's very important for one to know. This decision by the
21 Serb deputies to walk out of the Assembly and form a separate Assembly is
22 something that was preceded by a vote that was taken without the consent
23 of the Serb deputies in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly on the
24 declaration of independence. We were out-voted in spite of all the
25 existing Assembly regulation. That is why we walked out and decided to
1 form a separate Assembly. We realised that even decisions that were
2 supposed to be in force could be simply declared null and void or
3 out-voted. Although that was unconstitutional under the then
4 constitution, we then decided to make this move. This is what I wanted
5 to add.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the issue? Was that the fundamental
9 issue of regionalisation versus centralisation? Was that the issue in
10 which you felt that you were voted down?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The issue was the break-up of the
12 former common state of Yugoslavia
13 disagreed with that concept. The SDS and the Serb people at that time
14 had the idea of conserving Yugoslavia
15 remain within Yugoslavia
16 The other two peoples had their own policy. That was to say that
18 which were not made in keeping with the then regulation and laws.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. You were asked, sir, whether this had anything to do with
21 regionalisation, because you told us that regionalisation wasn't a policy
22 of the SDS. So can I just ask one further question on that: Are you
23 aware of documents produced by Karadzic and others showing that
24 regionalisation was a policy?
25 A. Through my political activity in the SDS and its political
1 bodies, I know that for the most part there were cases in which
2 regionalisation was prevented, because it was widely believed that this
3 would divide or break up the SDS and that local antagonisms would take
4 precedence over the general needs of the situation.
5 Q. As I say, I don't want to be buried in this topic, but were you
6 aware of the declaration of the so-called autonomous regions, including
7 that of Krajina?
8 A. Yes, but I would also like to say that we didn't really deal with
9 that question too much, because the political side was quite organised
10 in -- in that region.
11 Q. All right. Well, as I say, I've got a lot to get through with
12 you, Mr. Djekanovic, and the Chamber will hear other evidence about this,
13 so I want to move, please, back to this document.
14 You said you had access this document. Do you mean you got the
15 document, because if so, could you say so, please?
16 A. I cannot affirmatively answer whether I received this document
17 personally, whether it came through the autonomous region of the Krajina
18 or through the -- the party organs into the party. I really cannot
19 remember at this point how I got it.
20 Q. That's all right, but -- sorry.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, there is another -- I'm sorry to
22 interrupt, but there is another problem with the transcript. Page 34,
23 25, and 35, 1 and 2. I believe the witness said, "I would also like to
24 say that we didn't really deal with that question too much because the
25 Kotor Varos was already a part of regional association of the
1 municipality Bosanska Krajina," and that is not what the -- what the
2 transcript says. Something different. Thank you very much.
3 MS. KORNER: That's not at all what the transcript says. But is
4 that what you said, sir? Because it's not what I heard through my
5 headphones either.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.
7 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.
8 Q. All right. However you got it, you got a copy of this document,
9 did you?
10 A. We did have it at our disposal.
11 Q. All right. And that was a set of instructions, wasn't it, from
12 the SDS board for what was to happen. If you turn -- if we go to page 2
13 of the document.
14 In paragraph 1, it was to implement, as it was put, the decision
15 adopted in the plebiscite by the Serbian people. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the plebiscite referred to, is that the one that was held at
18 the beginning of November of 1991 as to whether Serbs wished to remain in
19 the Yugoslav state?
20 A. The only plebiscite which we conducted was the support to remain
21 in the former state of Yugoslavia
22 that assertion.
23 Q. Yes. Sorry, the question was whether that's the one that was
24 held at the beginning of November 1991.
25 A. I have to stress I don't know what time that -- I really cannot
1 remember after such a long time has passed and in view of the conditions
2 that I'm living in exactly what happened when. If you wished me to state
3 in the order of things that they happened in, I would not be able to do
5 When the plebiscite was held, it was during the time when the
6 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina already decided to declare independence
7 regardless of what the Serbian people wished. So it was probably at that
8 point in time.
9 Q. Right. Well, let's not bother then. Can you -- if we go down
10 the page to paragraph 3:
11 "The tasks, measures and other activities set forth in these
12 instructions shall be implemented over the entire territory of the
13 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or in every municipality
14 where the Serbian people live, as follows:
15 "In their entirety in those municipalities where the Serbian
16 people constitute a majority ...
17 "And partially in those municipalities where the Serbian people
18 do not constitute a majority (Variant B)."
19 Which variant did Kotor Varos come -- under which variant did
20 Kotor Varos come?
21 A. Kotor Varos had a relative majority Serbian population. I don't
22 know which variant applied where. In seeking a resolution and having
23 this document, which was not an executive document or of the nature of an
24 order, its task was to anticipate or prevent certain things, we were
25 trying to find a solution for survival. So I don't know whether that was
1 the best solution or not, but we did not opt for either Variant A or
2 Variant B in our municipality. We were trying to see what was
3 realistically possible to undertake in that period.
4 Q. Sorry. You say this was not -- I'm sorry. It was not the nature
5 of an order. What do you read the words as, "shall be implemented" as if
6 not an order?
7 A. What will be implemented will be what would be possible to
8 implement and what the situation in the field ensures would be
9 implementable. You have a general assertion here of municipalities where
10 the Serbian population is not in a majority, but nowhere is it explicitly
11 stated exactly what would be implemented in such a situation. So
12 everything that was implemented in Kotor Varos, in my opinion, I'm really
13 unable to see under which variant you would be able to classify it.
14 Q. Forget -- forget which variant you were -- I'm sorry. Forget
15 which variant you were for the moment. All I'm asking you is do not the
16 words, "shall be implemented" constitute an order? Whether you could
17 implement it or not is another matter, but isn't that an order?
18 A. I spent a long time in the municipality and in politics in those
19 periods, and I never received a document which I strictly had to
20 implement from the SDS. I always carried out a discussion at the party
21 organs, at the Municipal Board. We would always review these matters.
22 Thank God taking into account the policies of the SDS and seeking
23 solutions which for us would be the best, the most acceptable at a given
24 moment in time.
25 Q. Right. I think I'll just ask one more time. Do the words "shall
1 be implemented" mean that it's an order or not? That's all I'm asking.
2 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I haven't heard an intervention from the
3 other side --
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But it's a leading question. I
5 mean, this is not cross-examination, Your Honour. Asked and answered.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as I said, I'm simply trying to get an
7 answer. I'm not cross-examining him. I'm just asking him to give me an
9 JUDGE HALL: I understand that, but the -- as Mr. Krgovic has
10 said, the one point that could be taken as a question has been asked and
11 answered, but I was -- it seemed to me sitting here that one of the
12 difficulties is that you are pressing the witness on the imperative
13 meaning of a word in English, and English -- which may not convey the
14 same meaning in its original form, and perhaps the question should be
15 rephrased. Not saying Mr. Krgovic -- so the question may not have been
16 asked and answered, that you rephrase it.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. I will read the English translation of those words that appear
19 at -- in the first line of paragraph 3 on that page, and I want you to
20 confirm whether it is correct in the Serbian language.
21 MS. KORNER: It's quite difficult to do this actually, Your
22 Honour, but anyhow.
23 Q. "The tasks, measures, and other activities set forth in these
24 instructions shall be implemented ..."
25 A. In the Serbian it says:
1 "The tasks, measures, and other activities set forth in these
2 instructions shall be implemented." It does not say -- "are to be
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note that the distinctions
5 are very, very fine. It's very difficult to say.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes. Anyhow I've made my point. We'll move on
7 because we're spending too much time on this.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may try to be of assistance. I think the
9 proper -- maybe the proper English translation would be "carried out."
10 MS. KORNER: The word "shall" --
11 MR. ZECEVIC: "Would be carried out."
12 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic, but I'll move on.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm just trying to be helpful.
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. All right. Can we look, sir, please, then, at what those
16 instructions were, and you say you don't know which variant you came
17 under, but as you told us already, the Croats and Muslims, if they got
18 together, had a larger majority than that of the Serbs, did they not?
19 A. Yes, they were in a majority, but also it was clear that they had
20 already had their own Crisis Staffs, that units were already formed, that
21 practically in a small municipality three armies were practically
22 functioning, three completely opposed to each other military formation.
23 So it was quite normal --
24 Q. Yes. Look, sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I do have a
25 limited amount of time. That's not the question I asked you. The simple
1 answer was yes. Those details I'm sure you'll be asked about in
2 cross-examination. For the moment, can we move along and just deal with
3 what you are told to do, putting it neutrally, I hope in this document.
4 If you look at Variant B, which would be my suggestion was the
5 level -- the variant under which you came, at page 7 in the English. And
6 I can probably tell you what it is in the B/C/S as well. It's the same
7 page, I think.
8 All right. Under item 3:
9 "SDS Municipal Boards shall establish immediately a Crisis Staff
10 of the Serbian people in the municipality ..."
11 And then it gives a list of who should be on that Crisis Staff.
12 Did you form a Crisis Staff?
13 A. Yes, we did form a Crisis Staff, absolutely.
14 Q. The president of the SDS Municipal Board shall be the commander
15 of the Crisis Staff." That was you, wasn't it, in Kotor Varos, and did
16 you become, in fact -- I don't think "commander" is the right word, but
17 president of the Crisis Staff?
18 A. I'm hearing for the first time that I was the commander of
19 anything, but I was the president of the Crisis Staff.
20 Q. Yes. Forget -- I think that's a bad translation. Did you
21 appoint anybody to be a coordinator for relations with the SDA and the
23 A. The coordination with the SDA and the HDZ was present up until
24 almost the end of May 1992, and this coordination proceeded at the level
25 of the president of the SDS Municipal Board or the parties, but mostly at
1 the level of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly where
2 representative of all three parties were.
3 Personally, we co-operated with the president of the municipality
4 and the president of the HDZ. We communicated very well. We sat down
5 often together. We socialised together. We often got drunk together,
6 and we used these occasions to speak. So these communication occurred on
7 a daily basis. We would go to him to his office, he would come to us to
8 our office, and so on and so forth.
9 Q. Right. The question was simply --
10 MR. PANTELIC: Again, I really apologise to my learned friend
11 Ms. Korner. I think on page 41, line 21, I don't think that -- that this
12 witness said, "we often got drunk together." I mean, it's a little bit
13 harsh word, I think. Maybe socialised --
14 MS. KORNER: No, no, Mr. Pantelic -- no, no, Mr. Pantelic, let's
15 not have you giving evidence. Nor do I think it's going to be the most
16 important aspect of this case.
17 Q. Sir, but, however, can I urge you, please, to simply answer my
18 questions as shortly as possible. I have a limited amount of time that I
19 have to take you through this, and all that required was, "Yes, there was
21 Right. Item number 4:
22 "Convene and proclaim an Assembly of a Serbian People in the
23 municipality composed of Assembly men, representatives of the Serbian
24 people in the municipal Assembly, and presidents of SDS local boards."
25 Simple question. Did you actually convene an Assembly of the
1 Serbian People in Kotor Varos?
2 A. Yes, we did convene it. An Assembly of the Serbian People of the
3 municipality of Kotor Varos.
4 Q. Which was separate from the elected Municipal Assembly which
5 contained SDA, HDZ, and SDS?
6 A. All political groups and all three national parties had separate
7 parallel structures in the area of the Kotor Varos municipality,
8 including my own -- or, rather, the political structure to which I
9 belonged, the SDS. What we had and what we managed to maintain together
10 continued somehow until May, and that was the Municipal Assembly of the
11 municipality of Kotor Varos, but the first, second, and third of those
12 parties, all of us, were working on other things along parallel tracks.
13 Q. Yes. All right. Again, sir, whatever the other parties were
14 doing at the moment, I'm simply asking you what you did as a result of
15 the instructions.
16 Right. Item number -- could you turn over -- could we have the
17 next page and see item number 8 -- 7 first. The next page of the
19 Item number 7:
20 "Step up information and propaganda in order to ensure that the
21 Serbian people are informed fully and in time ..."
22 Did you carry out that instruction?
23 A. We never had a service or a team of people within the party
24 dealing with any propaganda activities. We did issue a bulletin and the
25 odd proclamation. If you can consider that to be of that nature, then
1 that would be that.
2 Q. And did you carry out instruction number 8, "Prepare an estimate
3 of the number of necessary active and reserve policemen, TO units ... and
4 bring them up to full manpower levels ..." et cetera?
5 A. That was an item that was impossible to implement, and we did not
6 deal with that at the party organs. We were unable to man or staff any
7 unit or any organ, and we could not implement that in the territory of
8 the Kotor Varos municipality. Therefore, my answer would be no.
9 Q. It says "prepare an estimate." Did you ever give the Main Board
10 an estimate of how many active and reserve policemen and TO units you
12 A. As far as I recall, we never provided such an estimate.
13 Q. All right. And finally, can we go to the -- almost the last page
14 of this document, penultimate, number 11, page 11.
15 Item number 4:
16 "The secret procedure for transferring and receiving orders to
17 implement tasks ..."
18 Can we pause there. Do you agree that says "orders"?
19 A. It does say "order," yes, that is correct.
20 Q. "To implement tasks, measures, or other activities ... shall be
21 established subsequently. "
22 Were you ever given a secret procedure?
23 A. I was never given any kind of secret procedure nor am I aware
24 that such a measure was ever adopted within the party. I don't know of
25 anything like that at least.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, that's all I ask about the document.
2 May that be admitted as an exhibit now.
3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P69, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. I want you briefly, please, to look at 65 ter 00097. Which is
7 the same as 1598, apparently.
8 All right. That's -- that's jumping ahead slightly in the
9 chronology, but it's because it's dated on the last second page the 26th
10 of April, but it's headed "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
12 of the Serbian people."
13 And if we go to the second page now of the document. Dated, as I
14 say, the 26th of April, 1992. And is signed by Mr. Djeric. Well, I say
15 signed. It bears his typed signature.
16 Did you receive this document, Mr. Djekanovic?
17 A. Looking at it from this point of view today, I have the
18 impression that I'm seeing it for the first time. I cannot remember
19 precisely whether I had it then or not, whether I saw it or not. I
20 really cannot remember.
21 Q. Well, seeing it for the first time can't be right, can it,
22 because you were shown it in an interview.
23 A. The reason for that is that the document could have gone through
24 the Kotor Varos municipal Executive Board and not through the party
25 Executive Board, and that is the reason why I'm saying that I may not
1 have seen it. I'm not disputing the document's existence. Perhaps in
2 this form or some other form.
3 Q. All right. Well, all I wanted to ask you about is item number
5 "The Crisis Staff shall ... make decisions --"
6 Sorry, paragraph 14:
7 "The Crisis Staff shall ... make decisions and hold sessions
8 in --" sorry. Thank you. "The Crisis Staff shall convene and make
9 decisions in the presence of all its members, take official minutes,
10 issue written decisions, and submit weekly reports to the regional and
11 state organisations of the Serbian republic ..."
12 All I want to ask you is, did you have minutes taken of your
14 A. When the Crisis Staff was functioning, we did take minutes. The
15 bulk of the excerpts from those minutes you also have, so the question is
16 superfluous. We did have meetings -- minutes, not only at the Crisis
17 Staff meetings but only -- but at all types of meetings or sessions. We
18 did take the minutes of the meetings. There were transcripts of those
20 Q. And did you submit weekly reports to the regional and state
22 A. In the period that this refers to or could refer to, many
23 communications had broken down in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So now I can
24 decisively state that the organs at the central of the party did not
25 receive reports that were submitted by us. Sometimes we would give them
1 a summary that would be those from the meetings at the regional Crisis
2 Staff sessions, but we did not make reports for each individual meeting.
3 This was simply something that was done from case to case, just as if --
4 as the change -- as there were changes in the need for convening Crisis
5 Staff meetings. Sometimes they would be held from time to time.
6 Sometimes there was need for them to be held on a daily basis.
7 Q. Yes. All right. Honestly, sir, I'm going to ask you again --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Please just answer the question I ask and don't volunteer
11 information that really isn't necessary.
12 Right. I want to move, please, to the -- or go back, rather,
13 because that was later on, and look at document 65 ter 671, please.
14 MS. KORNER: And may I ask that the previous document is
15 admitted, this one I've just looked at.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As P70, Your Honours.
18 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour. I was really -- I
19 was really busy with some other issues. I again apologise.
20 I don't think that this is an appropriate way that through this
21 witness we could admit this particular document in light of the previous
22 rulings that this Honourable Trial Chamber made. And in addition, the
23 author of this document is on the Prosecution list, so we shall have a
24 possibility to -- to have possibility to tender it through the author of
25 this document, because Mr. Djeric will be on the list of OTP. But
1 specifically, we know here that when we try to get some answers from
2 previous witnesses with regard to the other documents about the events in
3 municipality of Kotor Varos and Sanski Most, a ruling was not that these
4 particular documents can -- because this witness simply said he doesn't
5 know about these document, he never saw these document, and finally, he
6 don't have -- he didn't implement it.
7 So that's the basis for our objection to tender this document
8 through this witness. I'm not challenging the option that maybe OTP can
9 tender this document through the author or some other relevant officials.
10 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, does your objection apply only to the
11 most recent document or other documents that were tendered this
13 MR. PANTELIC: I'm just speaking about this particular document
14 because the author was the prime minister at that time and obviously this
15 witness doesn't know anything about --
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be brief.
17 Yesterday we had a similar situation, and I agreed fully with your
18 decision, with your ruling, and I withdrew the document in question. The
19 explanation given was identical to the one given by my learned friend
20 now. I join his objection, and in accordance to -- with your yesterday's
21 ruling, I don't think this document should be tendered and admitted
22 through this witness. We will have the author of the document here.
23 MS. KORNER: What he said was he wasn't denying they had it, and,
24 yes, contrary to what was suggested by Mr. Pantelic, he did implement the
1 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I mean, if they did take minutes, my learned
2 friend, I mean, minutes are minutes. They are doing that prior, during,
3 and after all these seasons. I mean, it's not the main issue of this
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, if you are going to call the author
7 of the document as a witness in any case, then it might be wise to seek
8 the admission of the -- this document through the author.
9 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I don't have particularly strong
10 feelings about it. It just makes more sense logically to have this
11 document as an exhibit next to the Variant A and B document, but my
12 submission is it I've laid the groundwork. If you rule against me on
13 that, then it can just be marked for identification.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. What the Chamber would do is to recall
16 its order exhibiting this document and make a new order having it marked
17 for identification.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P70, therefore, is marked for
19 identification, Your Honours.
20 MS. KORNER: Okay. Could we have the next document that I asked
21 to come up -- up again, 65 ter 671.
22 Q. This is the decision, and there we see the dates of the
23 plebiscite for you, Mr. Djekanovic, the decision to found the Serbian
24 Municipality of Kotor Varos. When did you make the decision to found the
25 Serbian municipality?
1 A. I cannot give you the exact date.
2 Q. That's fine.
3 A. It was in that period. Perhaps it could have been a month before
4 that or later.
5 Q. And there we see decision on the verification of the declared
6 Serbian autonomous districts, which it was a decision that had been made
7 bit Serbian Assembly, the main Assembly, hadn't it? Mr. Djekanovic?
8 A. The decision on the founding of the Serb Municipal Assembly of
9 Kotor Varos was made by the deputies of --
10 Q. No, sorry. The decision to verify the declared Serbian
11 autonomous districts. That was a decision -- that had been made, had it
12 not, by the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
13 A. Before me I have a decision to join the Autonomous Region of
14 Krajina, and I'm reading from the Serbian version that I have before me.
15 Q. Never mind.
16 "It's hereby proclaimed the Serbian Municipality of Kotor Varos
17 shall be part of the Autonomous District of Krajina ..."
18 And if we go to the bottom of the page in the translation. That
19 was you signing that decision, wasn't it?
20 A. My first and last name as typed are mine, but this is not my
21 signature. I'm not disputing this, though, because I would have signed
22 it myself if I had been given the chance to.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 MS. KORNER: Can I just go back to the paragraph about the
25 Serbian municipality in English, please. Thank you.
1 Q. There wasn't, was there, a Serbian Municipality of Kotor Varos.
2 There was a municipality of Kotor Varos made up of three different
4 A. If we take it out of the context, then that is true, but there
5 used to be a common state called Bosnia and Herzegovina in which the
6 three different peoples did not wish to secede from Yugoslavia, and still
7 it was recognised. By the same token, it is true that this was the
8 Serbian Municipality
9 was also the joint Municipal Assembly in the work of which
10 representatives of all the parties participated, that is to say, people
11 elected during -- or through the election process legally.
12 Q. All right. The HDZ and the SDA, the Croats and the Muslims, were
13 not going to be joining, were they, the autonomous district of -- it
14 should be region, I think, Autonomous Region of Krajina?
15 A. I wish to say that Anto Mandic as the municipal president did
16 participate in certain sessions, although I don't know how many.
17 Specifically I have in mind a session in Celinac, that session of the
18 autonomous region in which he participated.
19 I've already stressed that we as the SDS did not take much
20 interest in that issue, because we had the heritage and the situation in
21 terms of facts which worked in our favour. That is to say, that Kotor
22 Varos had been part of that region and that geographically and by all
23 other means it gravitated to Banja Luka. Therefore, passing this
24 decision was not of essential importance to us. This decision probably
25 arose from the results of the plebiscite and based on the requests of our
1 people. People started doubting our ability, asking themselves what we
2 were doing, although we tried to explain to them that formally speaking
3 this didn't change a thing.
4 Q. I'll ask the question again, please, and if you'll just answer
5 that question. Were the HDZ and the SDA and the Croats and Muslim
6 population of Kotor Varos going to be prepared to join the Autonomous
7 Region of Krajina?
8 A. I don't have an answer to that because no one asked those people.
9 Their political representatives disputed everything that had existed in
10 the previous state, and they were trying to break up everything.
11 This question of yours may also be seen as leading, but had we
12 had a plebiscite in which they could freely decide on this issue, I don't
13 know what would have been the result of that.
14 Q. All right. I'm going to move on.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I have that document exhibited?
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 71, P71, Your Honours.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Can we move now, please, to April, and could you have a look at a
20 record of the National Defence Council, 65 ter number 676.
21 This is the minutes of the National Defence Council of Kotor
22 Varos, dated the 7th of April, 1992. Present at the session was -- let's
23 just deal with them. Nedeljko Maric. What position did he hold in the
25 A. He was the commander of the police station, commander of the SJB.
1 Q. And was a Croat; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Muhamed Sadikovic?
4 A. Sadikovic was deputy commander, as far as I know, and his
5 ethnicity at that time was Muslim.
6 Q. Right. Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic and Captain Slobodan Zupljanin,
7 who at that stage were still members of the JNA; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And there was yourself?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Anto Mandic who was also chairman of the National Defence
13 I just want to ask you about the paragraph which is at the bottom
14 of the first page in English and at the top of the second page in the
16 There was a discussion, wasn't there, about the fact that the
17 weapons had been taken from the Territorial Defence depot to Mali Logor
18 in Banja Luka? Do you remember that discussion, sir?
19 A. First of all, I was not a member of the council. I attended this
20 session as an SDS member, as the president of its Executive Board, and I
21 remember the discussion fairly well. Of course, I cannot recall all the
22 details, but I remember the session.
23 Q. Yes. And the -- Mr. Mandic and others present, Mr. Sadikovic,
24 were worried, weren't they, that the weapons had been removed and taken
25 to Banja Luka? That was a question, sir.
1 A. I did not understand this to be a question. You simply stated
2 that they were worried. I don't know if they were. I know they objected
3 at the session. As for the results of their intentions, this is
4 something I don't know about. I don't know the degree of their concern.
5 There was a lot of falsehood and insincerity involved among all of us.
6 Hence I cannot comment their concerns.
7 Q. All right. Can we look, then, please, at the paragraph that
8 begins "After remarks by Savo Tepic," which is on page 2 of the English,
9 and it's the same page in the B/C/S.
10 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise again. Correction to the
11 transcript. Page 53, line 21 witness didn't say that falsehood and
12 insincerity amongst all of us. He said falsehood and insincerity among
13 them, meaning Mandic and Sadikovic against the Serbs. That was the
14 meaning, but you can clarify that with the witness, please.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. Is that what your said? It was the other side who was insincere
17 and false but not the SDS?
18 A. Each conversation with them was absolutely insincere. They
19 always had a hidden agenda from the one they proclaimed publicly.
20 Q. The question, sir, was did you say that it was only the SDS and
21 the HDZ who were telling lies, but the SDS was not? That was what the
22 correction was.
23 A. As far as I understand from the interpretation I'm receiving is
24 whether the HDZ and the SDA lied, whereas the SDS did not. It seems to
25 be contradictory. I cannot answer. I said that representatives of the
1 SDA and the HDZ at such meetings stated one position, whereas behind the
2 scenes they did something completely opposite.
3 Q. I don't want to waste any more time on this one either. Can
4 we -- can you now look at the paragraph that begins:
5 "After remarks by Savo Tepic on the conclusions of the meeting
6 held on the 6th of April, 1992, at the security services centre in Banja
7 Luka, others also took part in a discussion on the transformation in the
8 Kotor Varos SJB."
9 Okay. What was the transformation of the Kotor Varos SJB going
10 to be?
11 A. As for the work of other institutions where I was not in charge
12 and the structure of which I was not familiar with in full, that is
13 something that I find difficult to answer, but in keeping with the
14 organisation of the Krajina region, similarly, at least hierarchically
15 speaking, the CSB was organised in the same fashion in Banja Luka
16 as for the SJB in Kotor Varos, it fell under the competence of the CSB in
17 Banja Luka in terms of all structural levels. What happened when is
18 something that was debated extensively, and it involved different issues.
19 If we address each such an issue in particular, I can try and answer to
20 the extent possible.
21 Q. I'm just asking you, because you were there and we weren't, what
22 was the issue about the transformation in the Kotor Varos SJB?
23 A. I think that the basic transformation was that the hierarchy of
24 command was supposed to be implemented. That is to say that the police
25 station in Kotor Varos fell under the CSB. As I said, by that time we
1 had double or triple authorities, each one using its own channels to pass
2 on information rather than sharing that information across the joint
3 bodies at the level of the B and H. By the same token, different
4 information came out of the police station from various representatives.
5 For example, an HDZ representative sent his information to his people, a
6 SDA representative to his own, and the chief of the station who was an
7 SDS member was supposed to honour the structure, and I believe he did so,
8 and he was supposed to follow the structure and pass on information to
9 the CSB in Banja Luka.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Initial disputes began with the issue of coordination as I have
13 Q. Did it have anything to do with the change in the insignia?
14 A. It is possible that some dissatisfaction arose from the change of
15 the insignia on the uniforms, although no one ever insisted in full on
16 that issue in Kotor Varos.
17 Q. Or having to take a loyalty oath to the Serbian republic in
19 A. I don't know if that was an issue or whether anyone received such
20 a text and in what form, but I do know that together with Anto Mandic I
21 attended a meeting during which -- or rather which was attended by almost
22 all members of the police station in Kotor Varos, during which such
23 issues were openly discussed.
24 Q. Was that the meeting with Stojan Zupljanin that's referred to
1 A. The meeting I have in mind that was held in the pensioners' hall
2 does not include Stojan Zupljanin. And I don't think he attended the
4 MS. KORNER: Forgive me, Your Honour. I'm just checking the --
5 all right. Your Honours, may that be made an Exhibit Number?
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P72, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. All right. On this topic can you look very quickly, please, at
10 some minutes of the executive committee held two days later, 9th of
11 April, 1992, which is 65 ter 2338.
12 All right. We can see there this is the minutes of an
13 extraordinary session of the Executive Committee on the 9th of April,
15 If we go to the second page in the English we can see that you
16 were there. And it's also page 2 in the B/C/S.
17 I just want to ask you about one matter, so we have to go -- I
18 think it's on the same page, actually. Yes, conclusions. Bottom of the
19 page after Mr. Spahic. Bottom of the page in English, and in B/C/S it's
20 on the next page, page 3.
21 Under item 2 -- sorry, conclusion number 2:
22 "In order to prevent possible incidents, it was agreed not to
23 make changes in the public security station ... Kotor Varos, the
24 Territorial Defence or other government institutions without prior
25 agreement of the ruling parties."
1 Now, this was two days after the last meeting. Did the changes
2 have anything to do with a loyalty oath having to be taken to the Serbian
4 A. Through this conclusion one can see that this and other decisions
5 and instructions were not implemented entirely in the area of Kotor Varos
6 municipality. I did not really complete the story from which you could
7 clearly get an idea of what the situation was in Kotor Varos, so then
8 there will be space for you to conclude what it was like, but the
9 situation was very close to incidents breaking out. There were barriers
10 and obstacles placed on the roads already. There were shooting and
11 conflicts in the surrounding villages already. So that was the general
12 tone of the situation, and I'm not going to really comment on that any
13 more. But I do know that members of the police station of other
14 ethnicity, Muslims and Croats, rather, never asked them definitely to
15 sign any loyalty oaths, and I don't know of any of them that had been
16 left without a job in that period.
17 Q. It really is -- what changes, therefore, if it had nothing to do
18 with a loyalty oath or uniform, in the police station could this have
19 been referring to? That's all I want to know.
20 A. If you hold a meeting with the police attended by representatives
21 of all the political parties, and at the same time in front of the hall
22 where the meeting is being held you have people with weapons walking
23 around who do not belong to the police, who fire from automatic weapons
24 and are chasing each other around town, then I guess you would be likely
25 to understand better exactly what kind of a situation this was. And this
1 actually happened on the day this joint meeting was being held.
2 Q. No, all right. I'll move on otherwise we'll get buried forever.
3 I want to move then -- thank you very much.
4 MS. KORNER: Can that, Your Honour, be exhibited?
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P73, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE HALL: And I think we're coming up on the break.
8 Ms. Korner, in the next five minutes when it's convenient.
9 MS. KORNER: No, sorry. You obviously heard my muttering, is
10 what I'm worried about is the amount of time this is taking. That's all.
11 That's a perfectly convenient place, Your Honours.
12 [The witness stands down]
13 -- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
14 -- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, the registrar advises us that you
17 have used two hours. I think you originally asked for three hours to
18 complete your examination-in-chief of this witnesses -- of this witness,
19 and each of the two Defence counsels have asked for two hours.
20 MS. KORNER: I changed that, Your Honour. I said between three
21 and a half and four.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. There is a subsequent e-mail to suggest
23 that you would ask more time, but I just want to be sure that when we
24 come halfway down the line of your case, that you keep track of the total
25 amount of time that has been allocated to you so that we do not run into
1 a situation where -- where you have to ask for more time than the total
2 amount of hours that has been --
3 MS. KORNER: Can I -- as you are obviously aware, I have well in
4 the forefront of my mind the number of hours, but this is the first
5 witness of this type that Your Honours have seen. It would help, I
6 think, if perhaps you could instruct the witness, rather than me saying
7 it, that he should really just answer the question I ask rather than
8 adding all the detail which doesn't really relate to the specific
9 question I ask. That's my problem at the moment, and I dislike
10 interrupting witnesses.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: We'll instruct the witness.
12 Please be advised of what the Prosecutor has just said.
13 But also to you, Mrs. Korner, please keep track of the time so
14 that you don't get into trouble at the end.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. I fully appreciate that, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, I want to move now, please, to the only Assembly
19 meeting I want to ask you about that you attended, that of the 12th of
20 May of 1992. You recall attending that meeting, don't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask, please, that we have on the screen
23 65 ter number 926. And we need to go in the English, please, to page 13,
24 and in the B/C/S to, I believe, page 7.
25 Can we move the page in English up, please. Thank you.
1 Q. This is Karadzic speaking and setting out the six strategic
2 goals. Do you remember hearing Mr. Karadzic speak?
3 A. I reminded myself of that meeting yesterday and took parts of
4 addresses of certain people. Had you asked me the day before yesterday
5 about it, I wouldn't have remembered the people or the dates, but now I'm
6 saying that I partially remember. I reminded myself of their addresses,
7 but if you were to ask me now about the goals, I doubt that I would be
8 able to list them.
9 Q. Yes. But -- sorry. Let's just get this straight. You were
10 there, and you heard Dr. Karadzic speak; is that right?
11 A. That is correct, yes, but it's true that it has been 17 years
12 since then and that I'm a man who is living under difficult mental and
13 physical circumstances, and my psychological and physical state and my
14 struggle for survival do not permit me to remember what happened at each
15 one of those meetings and who said what.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, why don't you wait until you hear
17 what the Prosecutor wants to ask you. Once you said you were there and
18 you listened to it.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. All right. Looking at the preamble, "The Serbian side in Bosnia
21 and Herzegovina
22 the other two national communities, separation of states. "Separation
23 from those who are our enemies and who have used every opportunity to
24 attack us, et cetera."
25 How in a mixed municipality such as Kotor Varos were you going to
1 be able to achieve a separate state or a separate municipality?
2 A. We were not able to do that. We knew we were not able to do
3 that, and we did not do it either.
4 Q. All right. You're saying you didn't do anything to set up a
5 Serbian municipality in Kotor Varos. Is that really what you're -- is
6 that what you're saying?
7 A. No, I don't want to say that. What I want to say is that we knew
8 that there were representatives of other peoples in the region of the
9 municipality who disagreed with some of our positions, just as we
10 disagreed with some of theirs. All three of us knew that we cannot
11 separate in the way that is being implied here or that I am being asked
12 to answer about.
13 Q. All right. So -- so you're saying that it wasn't possible
14 because of the ethnic mix to separate Serbs from Croats and Muslims; is
15 that right?
16 A. That is right. And the current situation in the municipality of
17 Kotor Varos confirms that.
18 Q. We'll come on to -- we won't come on to the current. I'm
19 interested, please, in 1992.
20 I would then like you to look, please, at the speech made by
21 Mr. Kalinic, which I think is on page 21 in the English, and maybe
22 slightly different because we've got a different -- and it's -- in the
23 B/C/S it's page 14.
24 Sorry, it's page 22. I'm sorry.
25 You did know Mr. Kalinic, did you?
1 A. Yes, I did know him, and I still know him.
2 Q. Did he become the minister of health in the government at some
4 A. At some stage, yes.
5 Q. What he said about this was:
6 "Have we chosen the option of war or the option of negotiating?
7 I say this with a reason, and I must instantly add that knowing how our
8 enemy is, how perfidious they are, how they cannot be trusted until they
9 are physically, militarily destroyed and crushed, which of course implies
10 eliminating and liquidating their key people. I do not hesitate in
11 selecting the first option ..."
12 Did you agree with those sentiments expressed by Mr. Kalinic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So you wouldn't have agreed to the elimination and liquidation of
15 key people from the Croats and the Muslims?
16 A. I don't think that I would ever agree with that, and I don't
17 believe that Kalinic would either.
18 Q. All right. So you don't believe he meant what he was saying.
19 A. I don't know what he was thinking. Like I said, I had heard all
20 kinds of stories and tales, and had I taken each one for what it was, I
21 would have had a headache. But having known him in life, I don't think
22 that he was that kind of a man.
23 Q. All right. Can we just go down a bit further in the English.
24 Yes. He said -- he went on to say in the next paragraph:
25 "Why do I say that the option of war seems more likely to me?
1 Because only what has been conquered militarily may become really and
2 truly ours."
3 Did you agree with that?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Could we go, then, please, in the English to page 24. And in the
6 B/C/S it will be, I believe, page 16. And it will be 25 in the English,
7 actually. Miroslav Vjestica.
8 You should have up in front of you, sir, Mr. Vjestica's speech.
9 Did you know him?
10 A. Yes, I know him. I know him still today.
11 Q. He was, was he not, the SDS president in Bosanska Krupa?
12 A. I don't know if he was that at the time. I know that he was a
13 deputy together with me in the municipality -- in the Assembly of Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, you are asked by the interpreters to
18 repeat your last sentence.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I knew that he was a
20 deputy together with me in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 Assembly of Republika Srpska at the time, but I don't know whether he was
22 also a member of the SDS board at that same time.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. All right. The only thing that I want to ask you about in his
25 speech is this: He says somewhere in the middle of it:
1 "For a year and a half we've been preparing for war in the
2 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa because we knew there would be a
3 war and it could not be avoided."
4 Had you been preparing for a war in Kotor Varos?
5 A. Members of the former Yugoslav People's Army from Kotor Varos
6 would go to the front in Croatia
7 Q. No, sorry, sir. You misunderstand. I believe that what
8 Mr. Vjestica is talking about is a war that is going to happen with the
9 other nationalities in Krupa. I'm asking you whether that was your
10 opinion in respect of Kotor Varos.
11 A. I cannot speak about Krupa, I can talk about Kotor Varos, and I
12 can talk about other municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were
13 violent killings and conflicts in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
14 before then as well, meaning that war was inevitable. Bijeljina,
15 Sijekovac, Kupres, these municipalities were all close to us where there
16 were conflicts. So war was already there.
17 Q. All right. I'll try once more --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
20 Q. All I want to know is whether you were preparing for a war with
21 the Muslims and Croats in the municipality of Kotor Varos.
22 A. We were preparing for defence, for the protection of our people.
23 And we did not have any intention of killing or relocating anyone, only
24 to protect our people, to organise and protect our people, because it was
25 evident that war was all around us taking place, so we could not stick
1 our heads into the sand and say nothing would happen. Already in April
2 there was firing and shooting in Kotor Varos, and if I'm wrong about
3 that, then I apologise.
4 Q. All right. You call it defence, but were you in fact preparing
5 for a conflict, an armed conflict?
6 A. Everyone was carrying weapons and everybody was preparing for
7 some kind of goal of their own.
8 Q. All right. Move on for the last speech I want to ask you about,
9 that of Radoslav Brdjanin, which is at page 28 in the English, and I
10 believe at page 20 in the B/C/S. I'm sorry, 29 in the English it will
12 First of all, you knew Radoslav Brdjanin quite well, didn't you?
13 A. Of the people that you refer to, perhaps I knew him the best. I
14 don't know if I knew him all that well or if I saw him all that much.
15 Perhaps not, but I did know him the best out of all the people that
16 you've mentioned.
17 Q. His speech, the only part that I want to refer to is -- he says:
18 "I would like to say a heartfelt bravo to Mr. Kalinic. In all
19 my appearances in this joint Assembly it has never crossed my mind that,
20 although he seems quiet while I seem hawkish, his opinions are the
21 closest to mine."
22 You told us you knew Brdjanin the best of all these people.
23 Would you agree that his opinions were hawkish and close to those
24 expressed by Mr. Kalinic?
25 A. Perhaps his statements seemed that way, but actually in life,
1 since I travelled with him to the Assembly sessions in his car, in life
2 he didn't seem like that, but in his speeches he did have a habit of
3 saying things like that. Perhaps more than he should have. Maybe that
4 was part of his nature. But actually, in life he wasn't like that.
5 Q. So what he said -- so what he said in his speeches were hawkish,
6 but if you talked to him he was really a very nice man. Is that what
7 you're saying?
8 A. Yes. In the majority of cases, yes. Even up until May his
9 driver was a Muslim. A Muslim would drive him to the Assembly session.
10 This was right up until the outbreak of the war.
11 Q. I'm sorry, I said that was the last part, but there was one other
12 part. Page 30 of the -- 31 of the English, and I think probably 21 of
13 the B/C/S. I think.
14 He's referring there -- he starts:
15 "As for the military options, I do not know much about that, but
16 I propose, as Mr. Zupljanin has said, that Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 cannot be defended if it is based on the voluntary principle."
18 Do you know what he was referring to there in the sense of
19 something that had been said by Mr. Zupljanin?
20 A. I really cannot recall that at this moment. I don't know what he
21 was thinking, what he meant.
22 Q. All right. That's all that I want to ask you about that
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted, please.
25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P74, Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. All right. I want to now move directly to how Kotor Varos came
4 to be taken over by the Serbs.
5 Could you have a look this document, please, which is
6 65 ter 10101.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one explanation, because now
8 I'm looking at the transcript. When the Prosecutor asked about
9 Mr. Zupljanin, it's not clear which Zupljanin the witness meant here.
10 The entire question and answer don't make sense, whether the Prosecutor
11 is thinking about Slobodan Zupljanin or the deputy in the Assembly of
12 Republika Srpska.
13 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, perhaps you should ask the question
14 again to clarify this matter.
15 MS. KORNER: Okay.
16 Q. Was there a deputy in the Assembly called Zupljanin?
17 A. In that period there was no Zupljanin deputy in the Assembly.
18 I'm talking about the Assembly of Republika Srpska.
19 Q. Yes. Are you able to say, and if you're not say so straightaway,
20 whether he was referring there to Slobodan Zupljanin or Stojan Zupljanin?
21 A. It's truly difficult to say who he was thinking of, and it's
22 difficult to conclude that from this. There was a Slobodan Zupljanin -
23 and he existed - who was one of the commanders of the units. So I don't
24 know who he was thinking of.
25 Q. I'm sorry, I mentioned --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. I asked for a document to be put up, but I'm going to skip that
4 in the interest of time.
5 Could we have a look, please, though, at the next document, which
6 is 65 ter number 10102.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I should explain. I think you asked
8 me last week, Your Honour, about the business of 65 ter numbers. This is
9 not on our list. I'm not going to ask for it to be exhibited. I'm just
10 going to ask that it be marked for identification until we get a witness
11 who can properly deal with it.
12 Q. Sir, that document there, you won't have seen it before but it's
13 the content I want to ask you about.
14 Were you aware of a gathering of patriotically inclined citizens
15 in the Maslovare area, demanding weapons and joining military formations
16 in order to oppose the extremist in the Vrbanjci and Kotor Varos area?
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, before the witness answers, would you
18 be good enough to tell us what it is?
19 MS. KORNER: The what?
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: The document.
21 MS. KORNER: Oh, the document. It's one of the Milos set of
22 reports. I think I explained to Your Honour in opening, and you're going
23 to hear evidence from a witness about it, that this was an operative of
24 the SNB who was reporting to Banja Luka. And there are a huge number of
25 these reports. And as I say, I'm not saying the witness will have ever
1 seen this before. I'm just asking about the content.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this document yesterday for
4 the first time.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Yes. I'm not suggesting you seen it before, as I say, until you
7 saw it yesterday. I just want to know whether you were aware of people
8 in the Maslovare area, citizens demanding weapons.
9 A. It was a daily occurrence in the area of the municipality of
10 Kotor Varos, as early as March and April. Different groups of different
11 ethnicities gathered in different places. They all required to --
12 demanded to fight against the others. I participated in various
13 negotiations across different villages, and we all travelled together to
14 attend such negotiations until May. There were such requests put for
15 weapons, because there had been a number of incidents in the area of the
16 municipality of Kotor Varos.
17 Q. So were these requests made by Serbs to you?
18 A. I don't know what requests in particular these are. Specifically
19 these are mentioned in this document?
20 Q. No, generally speaking. Serbs from Maslovare and other
21 neighbouring villages.
22 A. Generally speaking, Serbs asked to be organised, that we should
23 be ready and not taken by surprise. And most of the Serbs had been
24 incorporated into the JNA units active in the theatre of Croatia, which
25 were later on transferred to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina
1 able-bodied Serbs had joined the JNA prior to the formation of the Serb
2 army in March. Villages and hamlets were for the most part left without
3 any able-bodied men.
4 Q. Yes. Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER: May that --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MS. KORNER: May that be marked for identification.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, marked accordingly.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P75 marked for identification, Your
11 MS. KORNER: Could we have the next one up which again is a Milos
12 report. This is on our 65 ter list, 688.
13 Q. This is dated the 9th of June and begins:
14 "Following our proposals and the proposals of others, the SDS is
15 due to start operation soon with the aim of taking over power in the
16 Kotor Varos area ..."
17 Now, did you intend to start an operation by the 9th of June to
18 take over power?
19 A. We already were in power. And as for any takeover of power, that
20 could be interpreted this or that way, but on the 9th I don't think we
21 were ready, and we knew that on the 11th we would be taking over anything
22 from someone else. In particular given that we had that for the most
23 part, but that power, those authorities were not functioning in the times
24 I have already said. On the 9th or 10th, yes, there was a decision or an
25 operation planned, but it existed -- such decisions existed on all sides.
1 It was only a matter of time who would move first.
2 Q. All right. Stop for a moment, please, because I think there is a
3 mistake on the transcript. You said as for any takeover of power, that
4 could be interpreted this or that way, but on the 9th I don't think we
5 were ready and we knew on the 9th we would be taking over anything from
6 someone else. I thought you said that you knew you were taking over
7 power on the 11th of June.
8 A. I cannot tell you precisely on what day, but I don't think it was
9 on the 9th.
10 Q. It was on the 11th, sir, as we will see. But please, sir --
11 A. Yes, the 11th, but I'm trying to correlate that to what was put
12 to me, that we knew on the 9th that what we would be doing on the 11th.
13 This is something that I cannot confirm.
14 Q. An operation with the aim of taking over power. Were you about
15 to mount an operation to take over power?
16 A. Yes. We were getting ready to take over power, as did the
17 representatives of the other two ethnicities.
18 Q. And how were you planning to take over power, in the teeth as you
19 say -- as there would have been opposition from the legally elected SDA
20 and HDZ representatives?
21 A. Nothing spectacular happened. There were TO units. There were
22 police structures, and in the municipality the authorities no longer
23 functioned. In the course of those few days, the Crisis Staff took over
24 some of the remit of the former authorities.
25 Q. All right. Well, let's -- can we look, please, at the second
1 part of this note.
2 "This operation should be carried out in a synchronised manner
3 with the help of Banja Luka CSB."
4 And: "We shall keep abreast of everything ..."
5 Was the operation carried out with the help of the CSB?
6 A. Yes, it is correct. We asked for the Banja Luka CSB's help, and
7 I have in mind the Crisis Staff and other bodies of the municipalities.
8 I have explained the reasons for that already.
9 Q. And what help did the Banja Luka CSB provide you with?
10 A. Primarily in personnel. It was obvious that we were
11 short-staffed. As I've said already, most able-bodied Serbs had been put
12 into different units in the various fronts and theatres around us.
13 Therefore, with additional reinforcements we could not take over power
14 and preserve peace and the functioning of institutions in the town.
15 Q. And who -- and what kind of police or personnel did CSB Banja
16 Luka provide you with?
17 A. I don't know what you have in mind specifically. Police units
18 comprising some good guys was sent in. That's what I can tell you. But
19 as for any other specifics such as its name or who commanded it, that is
20 something I cannot tell you.
21 Q. Really? Because you had a lot of dealings with the unit they
22 sent in later, didn't you? You're sure you can't tell us the name of the
23 unit or the type or who was leading it?
24 A. If you want me to say that it was a special unit, then I say yes,
25 it was. During the days you are referring to, I don't know who led the
2 Q. All right. It's not what I want you to say, sir. It's -- you
3 were there. Who actually or what the unit was that came. So was it the
4 Special Police?
5 A. As I said already, it was a well-trained unit. Perhaps a special
6 unit. Yes, a Special Police unit. To repeat, I don't know who was at
7 the helm at that moment.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: How big was the unit? How many special policemen
9 did it include?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that either. I don't
11 think it was a great number. Perhaps 30 or 40.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm going to ask that be admitted an
13 exhibit, because he's able to say what's in the contents is correct,
14 although he hasn't seen the note before, although I can get it in through
15 another witness, but I would like that admitted, if I may, as an exhibit.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, it's absolutely no ground to admit
17 this document. Point number one, although this witness might give the
18 testimony regarding certain aspects of -- of the part of the report, it
19 is not enough to -- for admission when he said that first time he was
20 seeing here that he doesn't know what it's all about, he doesn't know the
21 source, who is the author of that. In addition, again, I cannot say
22 because this is a -- we have to go to private session, but --
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. --
24 MR. PANTELIC: The author is also on the list more or less.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic, I think this witness has commented
1 on the contents of the document. He's confirmed that a Special Police
2 unit did arrive from Banja Luka as requested by the people in Kotor
3 Varos. So in my view, there is a sufficient link between the witness's
4 testimony and this document. I don't see a reason why we should not
5 admit it.
6 MR. PANTELIC: First of all, Your Honour, there is no any trace
7 or detail of mentioning of special unit in this report. That's point
8 number one.
9 Point number two, these are all assumption of this witness. Who,
10 how, which. I don't have any problem with his testimony answering the
11 questions of my learned friend, but absolutely don't see any basis for
12 admission of this document.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: We take note of the objection by counsel for
15 Zupljanin, but we are satisfied there is sufficient of a nexus for the
16 document to be tendered through this witness and accordingly order it be
17 admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P76, Your Honours.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
20 Q. Can you now look, please, at a document that's dated the 14th of
21 June with the number 10103.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm only going to ask him to look at
23 it. I'm not seeking to exhibit this document through this witness.
24 Q. This is a military report, and I just want to ask you about --
25 dated the 14th of June, the command of the 2nd Light Infantry Brigade.
1 "Following the mopping up of Kotor Varos, part of the enemy
2 forces and Croatian and Muslim population have pulled out to the broader
3 area of Hadrovci village."
4 What had been happening in Kotor Varos between the 11th and the
5 14th of June?
6 A. It could be described as a period in Kotor Varos itself which was
7 relatively calm. However, in the course of those few days in the
8 municipality, the few casualties occurred, the first murders which again
9 happened on the Serb side. People were taken out of their homes, their
10 families killed. And a shepherd with his cows was intercepted and
12 In the town itself, though, there was nothing unusual happening
13 in the course of those few days, save for short bursts of fire and the
14 transfer of ammunition across the Vrbanja River.
15 Q. Are you saying that in those two days the only people killed were
17 A. I don't recall exactly when the first Muslim victim happened, but
18 for the first two days I'm certain that in the municipality of Kotor
19 Varos the initial victims were solely Serbs. I claim that with full
21 Q. So what do you understand --
22 MR. PANTELIC: I'm sorry, again correction to the transcript.
23 Page 76 line 9. Instead of initial villages, initial victims should
24 stay, because witness just stated it.
25 MS. KORNER: I'm perfectly prepared to accept that. I heard the
1 witness say that as well.
2 Q. The 2nd Light Infantry Brigade was part of the VRS, wasn't it?
3 A. All Light Infantry Brigades were a part of the VRS, including
4 this one, but I don't know anything about its war path and the extent in
5 which they were included in combat. I don't believe they were
6 significantly included in the territory of Kotor Varos municipality.
7 Q. No. All right. But I'm asking about this mopping up. Do you
8 have any idea to what activity exactly this report refers? Given that
9 you were in Kotor Varos between the 11th and the 14th of June?
10 A. Yes, I was there, and I don't know. I don't know what mopping up
11 they had in mind. There were no significant military operations in that
12 period. There were no significant takeovers or movements of units save
13 for the sporadic murders which would later be followed by offensive
14 operations and combat such as those mentioned by this commander whom I
15 don't know. He mentions a mopping-up operations, but in the course of
16 those few days he was not in the territory of the municipality.
17 Q. Sorry, who wasn't in the territory of the municipality, the
19 A. This unit. Especially on the 11th of June. Who is the commander
20 who signed this?
21 Q. I can tell you. It's a gentleman named Milos Kesic?
22 A. That unit under that commander was not in the territory of Kotor
24 Q. You knew him, did you?
25 A. Ever so slightly. Maybe I didn't even know him, and I don't
1 think I know him today. I heard of his name being mentioned.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. I can't deny that.
4 Q. Well, let's move on then, please, to meetings of -- held of your
5 Crisis Staff. Can we move now to the 20th of June, which is 65 ter
7 These minutes, do you have -- if we go to the second page, is
8 that your signature on them?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. I want to ask you just about one aspect of this. The
11 bottom -- oh, sorry, could we go back to the first page on each. Sorry.
12 Mane Tepic
13 A. Mane Tepic
14 Kotor Varos municipality during the multi-party elections and during the
15 takeover, as I believe you termed it. He remained the commander of the
16 TO, which was within the structure of the former JNA and the Secretariat
17 for National Defence.
18 Q. Bottom of that paragraph of his speech - we can just make it out
19 on the screen - he stated that:
20 "... Bakir Dizdar is staying in Cepak and has a certificate
21 issued by the commander of the special unit Samardzija on free movement,
22 and this should be checked at the SJB. "
23 Now, did you know Mr. Samardzija?
24 A. I met him a few days after he arrived in Kotor Varos. It may
25 have been on the 13th, the 14th, or the 15th. I did encounter him in any
1 case, but we seldom met after that.
2 Q. So certainly by the 20th of June you were aware of the name of
3 the person who was in command of the Special Police?
4 A. Not even today I can say with any certainty whether this or that
5 person was that commander. I don't know whether it was Samardzija. I
6 cannot say that with any degree of certainty. It was always my
7 impression that it was Slobo Dubocanin or someone else. But according to
8 the organisation, I don't really have a clear opinion on who the
9 commander was that I could convey to you with certainty.
10 Q. All right. I also should have asked you, first of all, about
11 Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic, who is in item 1. When did you first meet
13 A. I met Peulic a month before that or maybe earlier. He was a
14 commander of -- he was the commander of a JNA unit when that unit was
15 engaged in Croatia
16 regulations were mobilised into that unit from our municipality. This is
17 how I met him. Later on, the unit was transferred to the area of Kotor
19 Q. And he's telling you on the 20th of June, there were combat
20 operations in the area overlooking Vecici village. So by the 20th of
21 June there were certainly combat operations going on, weren't there?
22 A. Yes, certainly. As I said, by that time there was. I also said
23 that there was some conflicts as early as April. In May, yes, by all
25 Q. Conflicts. This is an all-out military and police operation,
1 isn't it, against non-Serb villages?
2 MR. KRGOVIC: I mean, it's purely a leading question, Your
4 MS. KORNER: I'll rephrase it.
5 Q. What kind of operation was it that involved military and police
6 against these -- Vecici was a non-Serb village, wasn't it?
7 A. Vecici was a non-Serb village, but perhaps a hundred or 200
8 metres from Vecici they were Serb villages. Just above Vecici, one of
9 the first murders took place.
10 Q. I'm sorry, I'll ask the question one more time. What sort of an
11 operation was it that was going on against the -- here, according to the
12 area overlooking Vecici, which involved the military and the police?
13 A. I don't know when the operation took place. In the area of
14 Vecici there were several operations and lots of combat. It lasted for
15 quite some time, as of, say, mid-June and all the way up to --
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: You're being asked what sort -- what was the
17 magnitude of this operation that took place that apparently included both
18 military forces and police forces. You're not being asked about when,
19 but what was the nature of this operation? So please be precise in your
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fact that Vecici were not
22 cleansed at that time as some are trying to show is enough to indicate
23 that the military operation was not of that scale. That there were armed
24 formations and lots of weapons in the village of Vecici
25 were able to put up resistance or respond to any kind of military action,
1 that is indicated. I don't know what the thrust of this question should
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the problem is in the
4 question referring to police. Nowhere is the police mentioned here.
5 This is a military action, not a military police action.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honours -- sorry, there's going to be evidence
7 about this, but I'll move on.
8 Q. Finally -- well, two questions: Firstly, Mr. Tepic, the chief of
9 the police, is talking -- is briefing the Crisis Staff on the number of
10 weapons returned yesterday, and said that a total of 14 guns were
12 There was, was there, some kind of a weapons collection going on
13 from non-Serbs?
14 A. The action of collection of weapons from all members who were
15 living but were not members of the military was something that happened
16 quite frequently and happened in that period as well. It's quite normal
17 that in certain areas where there was no combat activity it was requested
18 that people be disarmed so that one could make sure that there would be
19 no fighting and no conflicts. I think that that's what that referred to.
20 And I know that we declared such moves.
21 Q. Were any weapons collected from Serbs?
22 A. I've already said that. Out of all those who were not military
23 engaged and happened to possess weapons.
24 Q. That's not an answer to my question. Were any weapons collected
25 from Serbs?
1 A. I said that the weapons were collected from all, meaning Serbs
2 too. And as for proof of how much was taken from whom or such a list is
3 something that I don't have.
4 Q. All right. And then finally, and I think that will be finally
5 for today, tell the Court what happened to Anto -- Anto Mandic.
6 JUDGE HALL: The witness just raised his hand. Did he -- was he
7 attempting to answer your question, or did he want to volunteer something
8 to the Chamber?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I wanted to make an addition
10 to my answer. In these reports, when you look at them, and perhaps you
11 might skip that but the Crisis Staff is in one place asking for weapons
12 to be returned to a Muslim in order for him to be able to protect his
13 company that was being guarded by members of the police and Army of
14 Republika Srpska. Things like that happened as well. And also, things
15 like that are mentioned in these reports.
16 This is what I wanted to emphasise. I feel that this is also
17 very important.
18 MS. KORNER:
19 Q. Don't worry, Mr. Djekanovic, I have not forgotten that.
20 MS. KORNER: Mr. Pantelic, unless it's really urgent could I
21 finish my last topic. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE HALL: It's that time, Ms. Korner.
23 MS. KORNER: All right.
24 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment to --
25 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honour, just if you permit me. In
1 light of the fact that we have a morning session and that we have to
2 prepare for cross-examination, I just am wondering if it's possible to
3 have today extended hours for half an hour so that Defence will be in
4 better situation to cover many things. Otherwise, we shall be in sort of
5 unfair position tomorrow, because we are going to listen this witness,
6 and during his chief we have to -- to prepare for cross-examination. So
7 I kindly beg all participants, and I would like to thank in advance of
8 our learned friends from interpreters booths to help as well the other.
9 I'm not thanking in advance to our friends for OTP because they are doing
10 their job like we are doing.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic, for obvious -- for administrative
13 reasons with which you may be very familiar, it is not possible to simply
14 extend today's sitting by a half hour. We were wondering, and indeed
15 that is what we thought you were going to be asking, if it would -- if
16 your difficulty would be addressed by resuming a half hour later in the
17 morning, at 9.30 instead of 9.00.
18 MR. PANTELIC: No, Your Honour. As usual, we have many sleepless
19 nights, so we are ready to work, to do our job. So it's not -- we could
20 perfectly -- even start half an hour before or as designated, but really
21 it's important because we would like to cover as many as possible topics
22 in chief so that we could be prepared for cross-examination due to these
23 changes. If it's possible. If not, that's life. What can I do?
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I should say that -- I mean, all of
25 this is covered in the two interviews which the Defence have, and that
1 was the last thing I was going to ask, whether Your Honours tomorrow,
2 having asked for copies of these interviews, would want them tomorrow so
3 we can make copies. All right.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness -- sorry, are you through Ms. -- was
5 there something else, Ms. Korner?
6 MS. KORNER: I think I am through.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I would -- I would take the issue
10 with -- this is a viva voce witness. I don't think that it's appropriate
11 that we have his interviews tendered. Would it be an exhibit or -- I'm
12 not sure if I -- if I understand Ms. Korner. I mean, we can talk about
13 this tomorrow, but --
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, we will.
15 Mr. Witness, your testimony is still not complete. Ms. Korner
16 still has to complete her examination-in-chief, and then there's
17 cross-examination to follow. Having been sworn as a witness, you cannot
18 communicate with the lawyers from either side, the Prosecution or for
19 Stanisic or Zupljanin, nor can you in your conversations with anybody
20 else talk about your testimony before the Tribunal. Do you understand
21 what I've just said?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir.
24 We take the adjournment until 9.00 tomorrow morning in this
1 -- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day
3 of October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.