1 Wednesday, 14 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Good morning all.
9 May we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner and Crispian Smith for the
11 Prosecution. Good morning, Your Honours.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: For the Stanisic Defence, Slobodan Zecevic. Good
13 morning, Your Honours.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
15 Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, Mr. Eric Tully, and our lovely
16 assistant Ms. Harriet Taylor. Thank you so much.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 May we have the witness return to the courtroom, please.
19 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I was just preparing for
21 cross-examination. Nothing else.
22 Well, I know Your Honours are so conscious about time, so that's
23 why --
24 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. Yesterday when we
25 finished our session, I addressed the Chamber. I owe certain
1 explanations to honourable Judge Harhoff regarding some questions that I
2 put to Colonel Basara yesterday. In particular, when I asked him a part
3 of line of my questions regarding the episodes where he personally came
4 to Manjaca to bring out young Muslim, Nijaz, and also on the other
5 occasion when he personally and -- ordered two of his soldiers to go to
6 school in Sanski Most to get out two Muslims to make a favour to the
7 father of these young people when he know -- knew him before, the line
8 was very simple. We tried to show that Colonel Basara, being a military
9 commander, in his zone of responsibility was able to sort of act whenever
10 he found its necessary to bring people in detention or to get them out.
11 And our theory, Your Honour, is that in accordance with the international
12 criminal law, case law, within this Tribunal and the international
13 humanity law as well as the local domestic jurisdiction, that military
14 commander during the armed conflict is the supreme master or person for
15 particular zone of responsibility. And that of course all other forces,
16 including police forces, should be and will be subordinate to him in
17 certain aspect of civilian life of course. More details we shall hear
18 from OTP witness Mrs. Hanson, Dorothea Hanson, and other witnesses as
19 well as from OTP side and Defence side. That was the line of question
20 which I followed yesterday with Colonel Basara, who testified. If it
21 pleases the Court, this explanation.
22 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I don't want to waste any more
23 time, and I'm not going to, but I don't think it's appropriate for
24 counsel to make speeches like this. I appreciate Mr. Pantelic says he
25 was answering the question, but that's a speech and the time for speeches
1 is not during the evidence. Speeches are for the end of the trial or at
2 the stage where there's a submission of no case to answer. But I don't
3 think that speeches like this are appropriate.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Well, I respectfully disagree that that was a
5 speech. It was just a part of Defence strategy to be shown -- explained
6 to the Trial Chamber. Thank you so much.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Counsels, let's not waste any more time. My
8 understanding of Mr. Pantelic's intervention was a response to a question
9 that I actually did put to him yesterday, but of course I agree that this
10 is too early for the concluding remarks.
11 Should we get the witness in?
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, good morning to you. As would
14 have -- as I believe we would have explained to you on -- when we took
15 the -- when you were stood down on Friday, it isn't always possible to
16 predict how long witnesses will take and, therefore, you're returning on
17 Wednesday, a little later than you or the Chamber would have anticipated.
18 But the -- I would remind you that where we are is that counsel for the
19 Prosecution has completed her examination-in-chief and now it remains for
20 you to be cross-examined. I would remind you that you're still on your
21 oath, and in that vein I would remind you that the obligation of your
22 oath to give truthful testimony carries with it the sanction of penalties
23 for testimony that is false.
24 Mr. Zecevic.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 WITNESS: NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djekanovic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I hope you've managed to have a good rest over the past three
7 days. Mr. Djekanovic, during your first day of examination, on page 8 of
8 the transcript and on page 51 of the transcript, you discussed with the
9 Prosecutor the issue of the community of municipalities of Banja Luka and
10 its relationship with the autonomous region of Krajina. When I read the
11 transcript, I found out that it was not quite clearly recorded, and I
12 would appreciate some clarification for the benefit of all of us,
13 including the Trial Chamber.
14 Now, the union of municipalities or the community of
15 municipalities was a regional structure that existed in the former
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Those unions of municipalities, those regional unions of
19 municipalities, were constituted for geographic, economic, and other
20 considerations whereby it was in the interests of municipalities to form
21 an association and that's why they did it; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, this union of municipalities had a certain structure that
24 reflected the structure of single municipalities. It had Assemblies and
25 other agencies?
1 A. I was not involved in politics, and I cannot answer you clearly
2 whether these structures were identical, but it's quite certain in any
3 case that all those unions of municipalities had all the various bodies
4 which had their jurisdiction each.
5 Q. I understand. I'm sorry that you are a mechanical engineer by
6 training. Just one question: Was the union -- did the union of
7 municipalities of Banja Luka have an Assembly, a parliament?
8 A. Yes, it did.
9 Q. So in 1991, when the Assembly of the union of municipalities of
10 Banja Luka became the Assembly of the autonomous region of Krajina, it
11 was just a case of re-naming, wasn't it? I'll ask you about that later.
12 I know you are about to tell me that some other municipalities joined at
13 that point. But formally speaking, it was just a change of name and the
14 joining of the union by some additional municipalities; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So in that context, the continuity of the municipality of Kotor
17 Varos and the union of municipalities of Banja Luka, later the autonomous
18 region of Krajina has lasted from the 1980s, 1980-something when the
19 union of municipalities of Banja Luka was created?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that's why you said in your answer that you in the SDS did
22 not raise this issue as a priority, because it was a very well-known fact
23 already by that time?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Now, in addition to this autonomous region of Krajina, there was
1 also a Croatian union of municipalities called Herceg-Bosna; do you know
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know that the Croatian community of municipalities,
5 Herceg-Bosna, was created back in -- on 18 November 1991?
6 A. I don't recall the exact date, but yes.
7 Q. I'd like to show you a map, a pre-war map of Bosnia and
9 and then I'd like to ask you to circle, to the best of your recollection,
10 the municipalities which constituted Herceg-Bosna to the best of your
12 A. All right.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show to the witness
15 Q. Let me just ask you, Mr. Djekanovic, the interpreters have warned
16 me that we are talking too fast. Will you please mind the pause between
17 questions and answers, and I will take care too.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge this map a little?
19 Thank you. That's all right now.
20 Q. Can you see well on the map?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right then. The municipality of Livno
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the
1 witness a pen.
2 Q. Could you please circle the municipality.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. In the future, please put a circle around the name of the
5 municipality. Now Kupres, was it part of Herceg-Bosna; if so, put a
6 circle around it.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Bugojno?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Gornji Vakuf?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Travnik?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Put a circle around it, it's in the middle, the very centre.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. You just encircled Novi Travnik. Was it part of Herceg-Bosna as
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Vitez, municipality of Vitez
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. You put a circle around it. Thank you.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Fojnica -- did you put a around Busovaca, it's below Vitez, a bit
25 to the right.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. That's it. Fojnica, was it part of Herceg-Bosna?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Kiseljak?
5 A. Yes. It's to the right of Fojnica.
6 Q. Kresevo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Konjic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Prozor?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Jablanica?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tomislavgrad -- sorry, at the time it was called Duvno?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Posusje?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did we mention Jablanica? Yes, you put a circle around it.
20 A. Mostar was the centre.
21 Q. Siroki Brijeg, then called Listica?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we raise the map, please, just
24 2 centimetres -- oh, sorry, now you can't do it, now you can't do it
25 because it's marked. We didn't position it too well, but never mind.
1 Q. In addition there was Ljubuski?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Citluk?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Capljina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Trebinje?
8 A. No, Trebinje wasn't.
9 Q. Part of Trebinje?
10 A. Yes, part of Trebinje was.
11 Q. And then Jajce, put a circle around Jajce.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Kakanj?
14 A. I don't remember about Kakanj, I can't tell you, but Zepce was
15 part of Herceg-Bosna.
16 Q. Then put a circle around it. Fine. Now, the municipalities we
17 have enumerated in addition to those we can't see on this map because we
18 didn't position it well formed the Croatian community of municipalities
19 Herceg-Bosna from 18 November 1991
20 A. Yes, but I think Kotor Varos joined also.
21 Q. Let's take it one step at a time. We'll come to that.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get a number for this
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D20, Your Honours.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we get again 1D4619 [as
1 interpreted] again, but this time raise it a bit higher.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have to emphasise that
3 Derventa, Brod, Samac municipalities were also part of this community.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We are coming to that.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the whole map of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina
8 Q. Right. Now, can you see well on this map? You know what? Just
9 put a little cross or a dot on the municipalities that were part of
10 Herceg-Bosna. Right. Go ahead now.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness get some help --
12 no wait a bit. Can the witness start marking now?
13 Q. Wait a second -- no, no, no, please don't do anything until the
14 map is positioned. This is the AV service which usually works very well
15 with occasional hitches.
16 Now start.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And mark all those you marked on the previous map, please.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Kresevo, Fojnica, Konjic. Konjic and Kresevo I believe you
21 didn't mark. You didn't mark Konjic and Kresevo. You marked Mostar,
22 Capljina, did you?
23 So this is roughly what the Croatian community of the
24 municipalities of Herceg-Bosna looked like in 1991, isn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we assign an exhibit number
2 to this document, please?
3 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit 1D21, Your Honours.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Tell me, Mr. Djekanovic, judging by the area of this Croatian
6 community of municipalities, Herceg-Bosna, accounted for about a third of
7 the overall area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, didn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You spoke about Ante Mandic as your community prefect. The SDS
10 of the Kotor Varos municipality, irrespective of the party agreement in
12 that position to the HDZ and Ante Mandic was appointed to that position,
13 wasn't he?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. That community prefect who was actually supported by you wanted
16 to join Kotor Varos to this community, the Croatian communities of
17 municipalities, and practically take it out of the Banja Luka union of
18 municipalities to which it had belonged for so many years. Wasn't that
19 the case?
20 A. Yes. In contravention of the positions of the Municipal
21 Assembly, he did decide to that effect. He signed an agreement to that
23 Q. Can you show on this map where your municipality of Kotor Varos
24 is located and mark it with a large X.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. So this municipality of yours, Kotor Varos, was to be -- was to
2 join the Croatian community of municipalities, that was the intention of
3 Anto Mandic, although by its geographic position and by all other
4 criteria it belonged to the Banja Luka region, didn't it?
5 A. Yes, indeed.
6 Q. In that sense, Mr. Anto Mandic participated in the work of the
7 community of Herceg-Bosna and effectively signed the -- signed a document
8 about the municipality of Kotor Varos joining the Croatian Community of
9 Herceg-Bosna, although that was not the position of the Municipal
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that roughly?
13 A. It was in late 1991. I do not remember the exact date, as I said
14 earlier, but it was toward the end of 1991.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this marked
17 map into evidence also, please.
18 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D22, Your Honours.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Q. Let us pass on to something else, to another problem.
22 If I remember well, in your examination-in-chief you were member
23 of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As a delegate?
1 A. Yes, as a delegate I was elected delegate at the first
2 multi-party elections.
3 Q. You're speaking about 1990?
4 A. Yes, 1990.
5 Q. Let us shed some light on this issue for the benefit of the
6 Trial Chamber. The Socialist Federal Republic
7 federation in 1991 was in existence, and it was in 1992 until sometime in
8 April, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes, but before that Slovenia
10 unilateral separation, and I believe Croatia
11 Q. Yes, but the issue of the secession of two republics does not
12 mean --
13 A. Yes, yes, at that moment. Yes, at that moment the Socialist
14 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was still in existence.
15 Q. Tell me, do you remember that as early as February 1991 Alija
16 Izetbegovic tried to initiate a vote about the declaration on the
17 sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Assembly? Were you present at
18 that Assembly meeting?
19 A. I was present at all Assembly meetings, at all sessions; and
20 since the beginning, that is, since that Assembly started functioning, it
21 was clear that things would develop in that direction. There were
22 such -- such tendencies at the very beginning.
23 Q. Our time is limited, so I would ask you to limit yourself to
24 answering the question. This is not a crucial issue for what we are
25 talking about, but it does provide a context. So do you agree with me
1 that in February 1991 Alija Izetbegovic for the first time tried to push
2 a declaration on the sovereignty of BiH through the Assembly but it
3 didn't -- he wasn't successful at the time; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was the structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina such that there were
6 three constitutive people which, in essence, means that all three peoples
7 constituted that republic; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So there were mechanisms that prevented any one people to be down
10 voted or two peoples joining forces against the third; is that correct?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. However, in spite of all these constitutional and other legal
13 limitations, in October 1991 the HDZ, that is, the members of parliament
14 belonging to that party and to the SDA, passed a decision on the
15 declaration of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the night of the
16 14th through the 15th October or the 15th to the 16th?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That decision was passed in an illegal manner and contrary to
19 your constitution; isn't that so?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Even the session of parliament which was interrupted or which had
22 been interrupted was continued in a way contrary to the rules of
23 procedure; isn't that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So if I may call it that, your fellow members of parliament who
1 belonged to the HDZ and the SDA parties in the Assembly in effect, by
2 force and in -- illegally, contrary to the constitution, voted about the
3 sovereignty and the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in October 1991;
4 isn't that the case?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Do you remember the president of the SDS, Radovan Karadzic,
7 asking them not to do that, yes or no?
8 A. Yes, I remember very well.
9 Q. Tell me, there is much talk here about the position of the SDS
10 being to preserve the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that
11 is then put into some virtual context of a Greater Serbia, et cetera.
12 Tell me, apart from the SDS, the SKSDP, and the SRSJ, that is, parties
13 who were -- that were also represented in parliament, the parliament of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, since the multi-party elections, were those parties
15 also in favour of preserving the SFRJ and Bosnia as part of the SFRJ?
16 A. Certainly the SDS at that time politically acted to preserve
18 political parties that also wanted to preserve Yugoslavia, among them the
19 ones that you mentioned.
20 Q. Were there others?
21 A. That was -- those were the early days of multi-party political
22 life, and there weren't so many parties apart from the League of
23 Communists that had survived. There was some reformists also that were
24 in favour of preserving Yugoslavia
25 former League of Communists.
1 Q. Yes, indeed, now I remember too. Thank you.
2 Tell me, after that the Serbian people held a referendum that was
3 attended -- or rather, the turn-out at the referendum of over 99 per cent
4 and that referendum corroborated the wish of the Serbian people to remain
5 in Yugoslavia
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Irrespective of this situation, that is, the declaration about
8 sovereignty which was an illegal decision contrary to the constitution,
9 which was passed by force, did you as a party and do you personally as a
10 Member of Parliament continue going to the sessions of the BiH
12 A. I believe that until the end of December we attended the common
13 sessions. By that time we also tried to -- or rather, we tried to
14 preserve all that, but as it became clear that we would be unsuccessful
15 we left the Assembly very soon and established a separate Assembly.
16 Q. Do you remember the decision passed on the 18th of December
17 addressed to the Presidency or the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, asking
18 for recognition -- just wait a minute, please.
19 A. I remember all these decisions, but after all this time I cannot
20 mention all these dates exactly. But I do remember the events,
22 Q. At that moment when that illegal decision contrary to the
23 constitution was passed about the -- about making the decision from
24 October 1991 operational, you understood that it was no longer possible
25 to go back; isn't that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. During the examination-in-chief you said that the position of the
3 SDS was to advocate centralisation rather than regionalisation or
4 cantonisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
5 A. I don't quite understand the question. If you think -- if you
6 mean the Republika Srpska, then yes.
7 Q. Well then obviously I didn't understand your answer either.
8 So the SDS at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina advocated
9 regionalisation, but in the context of the Republika Srpska that was
10 created later he was -- it was in favour of centralisation, more or less?
11 A. Yes, more or less.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know -- we're now speaking about
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you know that the regionalisation and
14 cantonisation was absolutely supported by the European Union, wasn't it,
15 in 1991 and in early 1992?
16 A. Yes. Actually, you are reminding me of that. You are keeping
17 track of all this information. I do remember some plans, a Lisbon Plan
18 and the attempt to create an atmosphere to avoid conflict, but those
19 plans came to nothing; Alija Izetbegovic rejected them. Those
20 negotiations and the solutions advocated by the European Union of the
21 international factor implied a regionalisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
22 certainly a different organisation -- organisational structure.
23 Q. When you say "Lisbon Plans," you mean the plan of the European
25 A. Yes, it was the Cutileiro Plan.
1 Q. In essence, the Cutileiro Plan envisaged a regionalisation of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the effect of the creation of three communities
3 that would have all structures of power and administration, and in
5 federal state?
6 A. Yes, that plan was crafted in Lisbon, but as soon as everybody
7 got back to -- got back home it was rejected.
8 Q. Just for the sake of better understanding, the Lisbon Plan or
9 these Cutileiro Plans, would you please limit yourself to the question
10 because your response may turn out differently in the transcript. So the
11 Lisbon Agreement, under the auspices of the European Union chaired by
12 Mr. Cutileiro, properly called the Cutileiro Plan, was signed by all
13 three parties, major parties, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the SDA, HDZ, and
14 SDA [as interpreted], that is, in other words, Mr. Karadzic,
15 Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Kljujic or whoever it was at the time, and they
16 all accepted that plan in Lisbon
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Upon returning to Sarajevo
19 signature on that plan, did he?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djekanovic, let us speak a little about Crisis
22 Staffs. You know that at the level of the Presidency of BiH, the Crisis
23 Staff of the Presidency was established on the 21st of September, 1991
24 and the president of that staff was the member of the Presidency, Mr.
25 Ejup Ganic, do you know that?
1 A. Yes, there were Crisis Staffs in all municipalities, also at the
2 level of BiH and at the level of the Presidency, but I don't remember the
3 dates when they were established, but there were Crisis Staffs all
5 Q. Do you know that the HDZ of Kotor Varos municipality established
6 its own Crisis Staff which held meetings regularly, ever since February
7 or March 1992?
8 A. Yes, all three parties had Crisis Staffs at -- or in the
9 territory of the Kotor Varos municipality.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us show to the witness document
12 Q. Can you see the document on your left-hand side?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you seen this document before?
15 A. No, I haven't. I've seen it here for the first time although I
16 knew of its existence.
17 Q. You see that the HDZ on the 8th of March, 1992, decided to
18 establish a Crisis Staff and five individuals are mentioned here. Do you
19 know anyone from Kotor Varos, any one of them?
20 A. Pile Mandic, I knew him. I knew Ilija Zeba.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Slavo Petrusic I think.
23 Q. So you knew of its existence, and there's no reason for you to
24 doubt the authenticity of this document?
25 A. No, I don't doubt it at all.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document
2 into evidence.
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HALL: As I understand his testimony, he wasn't the author,
6 and he only became aware of it a few days ago.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but he doesn't dispute the existence of the
8 HDZ Crisis Staff at the time in Kotor Varos, and I asked him does he --
9 has any -- does he have any -- knowing all the situation in Kotor Varos,
10 does he have any doubts as to the authenticity of this document. He says
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have to -- I have no particular
13 objection to this going in, although as I say the witness can't really
14 deal with it. But I don't think that strict proof is really required by
15 the Rules of this Tribunal. However, I am concerned it's not on the list
16 that we were sent. Are there any other documents that aren't on our
17 list? That's all I want to know?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, it might be an oversight. I'm sorry. I
19 apologise. Because this is the document which I used with the very first
20 witness, and then I asked him do I need to -- can he confirm that the
21 HDZ, the Crisis Staff existed and he says, "You don't have to show me the
22 document," that is why I -- I'm sorry. But since this is our last
23 witness from Kotor Varos, that is -- I thought that that would be the
24 only appropriate point where I can offer this document because I wouldn't
25 have any other opportunity, Your Honours. We don't intend to call any --
1 nor can we expect that any members of the HDZ Crisis Staff will testify
2 in our case. Thank you.
3 JUDGE HALL: It's admitted and marked.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D23, Your Honours.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Tell me, do you know that apart from the Crisis Staff, the HDZ
8 established an HVO command or headquarters for Kotor Varos?
9 A. I also said last time that at the time when the conflict broke
10 out, especially in March, April, May, of a time before June, all three
11 ethnic communities had commands of their own armed forces and that they
12 had a large number of armed men organised into various units. And there
13 was a display of this -- of these troops in the town there was even
14 shooting. And once Mr. Anto Mandic was stopped at such a barricade that
15 the members of the HVO and the Green Berets had put up.
16 Q. So if I understood you correctly, all three ethnic parties had
17 some sort of military wing and there were commands of these persons who
18 were established into units and the territory any one party tried to hold
19 some check-points and barricades were put up where they stopped citizens.
20 Is that correct or not?
21 A. I cannot merely answer by yes or no because I would like to add
22 an explanation. At that period the Serbian people was leaning on the
23 Yugoslav People's Army, and at the time we didn't establish our own armed
24 forces because there was this military force of the Yugoslav People's
25 Army that we were relying on. But the Green Berets and the HVO were
1 already established in the territory of the Kotor Varos municipality.
2 Only later when the VRS was established or was being established, our
3 formations were also established. So the SDS went about it in a
4 different way, certainly.
5 Q. The SDS didn't have a Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos municipality,
6 as a party Crisis Staff, yes or no?
7 A. The Serbian municipal office or municipality formed a Crisis
9 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, can you please listen to my question. I'm asking
10 you whether the SDS party formed its Crisis Staff just as you saw earlier
11 that the HDZ formed its own Crisis Staff. Did the SDS in Kotor Varos
12 have its Crisis Staff, yes or no?
13 A. I don't know whether this was directly consequence of a decision
14 by the SDS or the Serbian Assembly. I'm not quite sure about that, but
15 there was a Crisis Staff, that is definite.
16 Q. When you formed -- when the Serbian Assembly formed the Crisis
17 Staff, did you review the legal basis for that at the time, yes or no?
18 A. I spoke about it last time --
19 Q. No, please, just answer with a yes or no if you can.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The legal basis for the establishment of the Crisis Staff was the
22 Law on All People's Defence and social self protection, the constitution
23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
24 the strategy of All People's Defence; is that right? This would be the
25 legal basis for the establishment of an organ such as the Crisis Staff?
1 A. Yes, this is what I actually wanted to say in my answer to the
2 previous question.
3 Q. To simplify things, the regulations provided that in
4 extraordinary circumstances, even due to inclement weather or
5 catastrophes caused by weather such collective organs be formed
6 comprising the most responsible people in the municipality, who would
7 take over the powers for the functioning of the municipality in such
8 extraordinary circumstances because there was no possibility for the
9 legally-elected municipal organs to convene. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When the Crisis Staff was formed, it became the sole authority in
12 the municipality, uncontested power; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When I say "uncontested," what I mean by that is that all the
15 rights and duties for normal life in the municipality, the economy, the
16 utilities, the schools rested with the Crisis Staff?
17 A. Yes, all matters except for military matters.
18 Q. In that sense you absolutely didn't require any instructions
19 because the legal powers in that sense and the text of the law are very
20 clear in terms of what are your powers, responsibilities, rights; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In order to form the Crisis Staff, you didn't have to resort or
24 rely on any kind of instructions, yes or no?
25 A. The people who made the preparations for the setting up of the
1 Crisis Staff actually took as their basis the Law of All People's
2 Defence. At the time when it was formed we were looking for a legal
3 basis in those kinds of documents.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat
5 exactly which documents he was referring to.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. When you say "documents," what do you mean? You mean legal --
9 A. Yes, the laws in force in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
11 Q. In that sense the duty of the Crisis Staff, as far as those laws
12 were concerned, was that once the emergency situation had ended it was
13 obliged to submit a report to the Municipal Assembly, which then the
14 Municipal Assembly of a given municipality - in this case it was Kotor
15 Varos - would adopt or not adopt the report and would decide on the
16 responsibilities of the Crisis Staff members for their work?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In that sense it was not one of your duties to send reports to
19 anyone about your work, except to keep records and minutes so that in
20 your final report you would be able to report to the Municipal Assembly
21 about your activities, what you did, and so on and so forth?
22 A. Absolutely, we did not have any obligation to report to anyone
23 about our work, no.
24 Q. In the examination-in-chief you said that from time to time you
25 submitted a kind of summary report to the Assembly of the Autonomous
1 Region of the Krajina in order to present the situation in the
3 A. Yes, there were just brief reports about some aspects of our
4 work, but not a detailed report about all of our activities.
5 Q. When you said you didn't submit any reports, does that mean you
6 didn't submit reports to any state organ: The government, the ministry,
7 the Presidency, yes or no?
8 A. No, we didn't submit any such reports to those organs.
9 Q. Thank you. We've clarified this because that part was a little
10 bit unclear during the examination-in-chief why you kept minutes of
11 Crisis Staff meetings, so basically it was in order to document the
12 proceedings on the basis of which you would compile reports that would be
13 submitted to the Assembly of your socio-political community or the
14 Municipal Assembly of Kotor Varos which could then agree to adopt it or
15 reject it and establish your responsibility as members of the Crisis
16 Staff; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that is right, but here I would just like to add one
18 sentence about those reports.
19 Q. Go ahead.
20 A. As soon as the Dayton Accords were signed, I think that we were
21 probably the first municipality to voluntarily hand over all those
22 reports to the representatives of the international community. I think
23 it was the IFOR at the time. Our secretariat took those documents to the
24 Ramici base and made copies of all those documents. This was as soon as
25 the Dayton
1 reports to them. We did not wish this to be a confidential procedure or
2 anything like that.
3 Q. Thank you. This is a question that should have been put to you
4 by my learned friend, the Prosecutor, but I would like to help her.
5 Can you please tell me, in September 1992 you had already set up
6 a normal situation to a certain extent and the Executive Board of the
7 municipality had started to function at that time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall when the municipality of Kotor Varos Assembly was
10 re-convened again?
11 A. I repeat, I don't recall the exact date but parallel with the
12 establishment of the Executive Board the Kotor Varos Municipal Assembly
13 began to work, and it included the deputies who had been elected in 1990
14 if they were still there.
15 Q. In any case, if you're unable to remember the date, this was in
16 1992, the end of 1992?
17 A. Yes, it was in 1992, end of 1992 in any case.
18 Q. I'm now going to show to you a number of these minutes from
19 Crisis Staff meetings, and we're not going to comment in detail on all of
20 them, only some of them. But since you were the one who signed these
21 reports we need to be able to tender them as exhibits in this case.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
23 document 1D00-0749.
24 [In English] Your Honours, just one indication. I believe I will
25 finish right -- half an hour after the break, just an indication. That
1 is the proximity as I can see at this moment. Thank you very much.
2 I was notified by my learned colleague that this one was omitted
3 to be sent to them again.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's fine. So in that case --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. I'll withdraw that one.
6 Can I have 65 ter --
7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
8 I'm not objecting, I'm just pointing out without the microphone
9 on --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no, principles are principles, and we will
11 follow the principles. I will withdraw this document. Thank you.
12 Could the witness be shown 65 ter 00690. This one is
13 definitely --
14 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, Mr. Zecevic. We of course agree with your
15 observation about principles, but if the Prosecution isn't objecting and
16 there's a document that you need for your Defence, what do you propose to
17 do if you aren't going to exhibit it at this stage?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: No, Your Honours, I understood that your ruling
19 was that we will follow the guide-lines. I failed. The Prosecution
20 raised the issue. Your Honours ruled, and I withdrew the document. That
21 is why -- I meant no disrespect to the Trial Chamber of course. I was --
22 it was just a comment to Ms. Korner.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: We understand, Mr. Zecevic, and we will also
24 understand the basis for your objection if and when the Prosecution --
25 MR. ZECEVIC: That's exactly what I was doing, preserving my
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. This document is Prosecution exhibit from
4 the 65 ter list. It will become exhibit for the Defence.
5 Can the witness be shown the second -- [Interpretation] Could the
6 witness be shown page 2 of the document, please.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, while we're struggling with the
8 page, this is 65 ter number 690, is that it?
9 MR. ZECEVIC: That's right.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: But I wanted the second page. The first one is
12 just the cover page for the document.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djekanovic, this is an order by the Crisis
14 Staff to impose a curfew in the Kotor Varos municipality dated the 12th
15 of June, 1992. It has a number, and it's signed by you. Is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You recognise this order, yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?
22 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D24, Your Honours.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
25 document 1D00-0751.
1 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, could you please look at this document. It's an
2 excerpt from the minutes of the Crisis Staff meeting of the 20th of June,
3 1992. Is that correct? That's what it says in the heading.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at
6 page 2 of this document.
7 Q. Is this your signature, Mr. Djekanovic, in your capacity as
8 president of the Crisis Staff?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, Mr. Zecevic. What -- before we put it into
13 evidence, what exactly do you wish to draw the Court's attention to?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we are having -- we will be
15 having Ms. Hanson as the OTP expert on Crisis Staffs in very imminent
16 future, I guess next week or the week after, something. Now, we have a
17 number of documents which pertain to the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos. As
18 Mr. Djekanovic was the president of the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos, he
19 signed these minutes, and this is the only way which I see appropriate to
20 tender this as exhibits because there will be no other way for us to
21 tender these exhibits before Ms. Hanson appears -- appears in court.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. Thank you. I understand that, but --
23 MR. ZECEVIC: And -- yes --
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- you see, the reason I'm asking this is I want
25 to be sure that in the end when the trial is over and the Chamber has
1 withdrawn to deliberate, then we will come across this document and we
2 will all wonder: Why on earth was this document put into evidence? It
3 shows that there was an SDS Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos; that I think is
4 not disputed. It shows that the witness was the president; that too is
5 obvious and not disputed. So unless -- unless there's something in the
6 contents of the document that you specifically want to draw the Court's
7 attention to --
8 MR. ZECEVIC: There is definitely a lot of the specifics in these
9 documents which I need for the cross-examination of the expert
10 Ms. Hanson. But if Your Honours want me, I can file a bar table motion
11 and explain the relevance of each and every of these documents. Because
12 I thought it would be appropriate that I tender these documents as
13 exhibits and then discuss them with Ms. Hanson because that is -- that
14 was my intention. I don't need to -- I don't need to discuss this with
15 the witness, as he can confirm only the authenticity. That is the only
16 purpose. There is nothing that I need from these documents from this
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Except maybe a line or two on some of them, yes.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's on our 65 ter list, which takes --
21 makes the point that we thought it was relevant to an issue. It is
22 actually relevant to an issue. I'm not inviting Mr. Zecevic to make a
23 speech about why it is relevant, but it is relevant.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, again, I wasn't making a speech, I just --
25 MS. KORNER: No, no, I'm just saying to avoid you making a
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm just answering the Trial Chamber's question.
3 MS. KORNER: No, no, I'm not criticising you, Mr. Zecevic. I'm
4 just saying that it didn't need a speech. I accept that it's relevant to
5 an issue.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. I will -- the Chamber will accept this,
7 but maybe we should bring it up in this 65 ter meeting later on. I mean,
8 to find some sort of form of showing to the Chamber the relevance of
9 documents as we admit them, I think that would be preferable. I don't
10 mind you putting in this document at this time and then taking it up
11 again with Ms. Hanson --
12 MR. ZECEVIC: But, Your Honour, you see --
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sorry, let's stop here and just proceed.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D25, Your Honours.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Is -- I'm sorry, I just lost -- it's admitted.
17 Thank you.
18 Can the witness be shown document 1D00-0755.
19 JUDGE HALL: Well, we're just up on the break now. Do you wish
20 to do this now or when we return?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: As it pleases the Court, Your Honours.
22 It's time to rise?
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we begin I
4 would just like to apologise once again to the interpreters. I've been
5 warned during the break about my speed, and I'm going to try to do my
6 best to go slower, and I apologise once again.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: While we wait for the witness to come in, maybe
8 we can just raise the venue for this afternoon's meeting, and I
9 understand that the little conference room is booked. The big conference
10 room upstairs is available only between 2.00 and 4.00, and therefore it
11 was suggested that why don't we use a courtroom. And it turns out that
12 Courtroom III is available this afternoon, so the deal is therefore that
13 we'll meet informally, that is, not robed, in Courtroom III and use it as
14 a conference room simply for this afternoon's meeting, and that will give
15 us also the advantage of being able to use the computers. We had
16 anticipated that we would start the meeting at 2.00, so we could either
17 stop five minutes before and have a 20-minutes' break, or we could simply
18 say that we'll stop at a quarter to 2.00 and then just not begin the
19 meeting until 2.15. I don't know which -- it seems to me to be more
20 gentle to have half an hour's lunch break. So maybe we should
21 re-schedule and say that the meeting will start at 2.15 in Courtroom III.
22 Is that acceptable to the parties?
23 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Certainly, Your Honour.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
2 the document that I asked for, 1D00-0755.
3 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, can you please look at the document. This is an
4 excerpt of the minutes from the 33rd meeting of the Crisis Staff, and it
5 was held on the 22nd of June, 1992, and your signature is at the bottom.
6 Do you recall this document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So it's your document?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Document that you signed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, as with the last document, it would be
15 useful to indicate the connection. It will be admitted.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, no, again, Your Honours, this is the very
17 same situation and I have, like, ten other documents precisely the same
18 and for the same purpose. Your Honours, one thing I believe should be
19 said. There is no objection from the Prosecution side. That would
20 suggest that the Prosecutor is fine with this document, and I'm just --
21 I'm just still getting this --
22 JUDGE HALL: Please don't misunderstand me. The Chamber isn't
23 saying that it shouldn't be admitted.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE HALL: It's just that in the process of admitting it, it
1 would be useful where it is obvious what the relevance is to indicate the
2 purpose at this stage while you were -- while you're seeking -- while
3 you're tendering it to indicate why it's being admitted.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I tried to explain. Maybe I should
5 endeavour a bit more. The purpose of introducing these documents is to
6 create the body of evidence which will be commented and shown to the
7 expert -- to the OTP expert, Ms. Dorothea Hanson, and she's -- precisely
8 for the purpose of explaining the Crisis Staff, she would be called to
9 appear before the Trial Chamber and comment.
10 JUDGE HALL: And that holds good for each of these ten documents?
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, that's right, Your Honour. I thought that you
12 understood -- I meant as a whole body of documents I have I believe 15
13 documents, except one or two they're all of the same provenance.
14 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic. The lack of understanding
15 is personal to me.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
17 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, why don't you then just throw the
19 whole batch at us, just in one cut we can take it all rather than having
20 to -- if what you're saying is that you will bring up each of these
21 documents at a later stage with Mrs. Hanson and during your
22 cross-examination of Mrs. Hanson and using these documents, then we will
23 be led to understand why they're relevant. If that is the case, then
24 let's just have them all in one batch now.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. Your Honours, there are two things: Should
1 I do it as a bar table motion?
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is a matter of simple choice. You can do it
3 through this witness if you feel comfortable with that and he is the
4 author of them so it's perfectly legitimate to have them come in through
5 him, or you can do it as a bar table motion -- my suggestion was just to
6 save time.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I understand. I'm perfectly willing to
8 accommodate the Trial Chamber. I'm just wondering how to do it. I have
9 the hard copies with me, so maybe I can give the hard copies of these
10 documents to the witness, witness reviews them for, like, couple of
11 minutes just to see if it's the minutes of the Crisis Staff, his
12 signatures, and then I list, and then I read all these -- all their
13 numbers, and they're admitted as exhibits with the appropriate exhibit
14 number, if that is okay with the Prosecution.
15 MS. KORNER: I have absolutely no objection to that course at
16 all. I suggest also that we really ought to discuss in the 65 ter
17 conference this business of explanations being given.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay.
20 MS. KORNER: Perhaps Mr. Zecevic could be kind enough just to
21 read out the numbers so that we know which they are.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. The document -- the first document is
23 1D00-763 [sic] -- I'll speak in Serbian, I'm sorry.
24 [Interpretation] Then 1D00-0775, 1D00-0777, 1D00-0779, 1D00-3447,
25 1D00-3118, 65 ter 00735, then 65 ter 00684 -- [In English] I suggest,
1 Your Honours, while I'm reading this maybe the usher can give it to the
2 usher so that he can review the documents if Ms. Korner has nothing
3 against that.
4 I suggested that I give the other documents to the witness for
5 review while I read the --
6 MS. KORNER: Certainly.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-0785, 1D00-0787, 1D00-0791,
8 and 1D00-0815.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 12 documents in all, Your
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit numbers are therefore
13 1D26, 1D27, 1D28, 1D29, 1D30, 1D31, 1D32, 1D33, 1D34, 1D35, 1D36, 1D37,
14 and 1D38.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, have you looked at these documents? Are they all
21 documents of the Crisis Staff and then beginning with 1D00-0775, now
22 1D27 -- sorry, 1D28 is the first document related to the War Presidency,
23 starting with June, and all the later documents are documents of the War
24 Presidency. Have you looked through all of them?
25 A. I have glanced through them. I haven't really reviewed them.
1 Q. Yes, but they are minutes of the sessions of the Crisis Staff and
2 minutes of the War Presidency and you've signed a great number of them?
3 A. Yes, they are minutes of the Crisis Staff and War Presidency. I
4 signed most of them, not all, but I don't question their authenticity.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to bring the
6 documents back to me.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic. Could you tell me, in addition to the
8 fact that you were a deputy to the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina
9 you were also a deputy to the Assembly of Republika Srpska; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your examination-in-chief my learned friend asked you whether
12 you had attended the session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska of the
13 12th of May in Banja Luka, and you confirmed; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Tell me, these Assembly sessions, you did not attend them only
16 when it was impossible to go there because roads were blocked, that's May
17 through July 1992, until the corridor was made in north Bosnia?
18 A. Yes, I don't know how many sessions I missed in that period.
19 Q. You touched upon in the direct examination the situation in Kotor
20 Varos municipality in the period May through July 1992. Tell me, in the
21 second half of June and in July, was there electricity available?
22 A. Most of the time not.
23 Q. When you say "most of the time," do you mean really most of the
24 time or on most of the territory or both?
25 A. Most of the time in a large part of the territory, and in some
1 areas not at all. I know that because we had huge problems with
2 water-supply, and we had to mount aggregates and pumps and supply water
3 in this way to cities and towns. I know it also from many other things
4 such as sessions.
5 Q. Tell me, telephone lines were also cut off; right?
6 A. The greatest part of that period, no telephone communications
7 were available at all. Only later did we establish one telephone line
8 through the post office in Banja Luka
9 first days we had no telephones at all.
10 Q. You mean to say that there was one telephone line -- first of
11 all, at the beginning there was no communication with the outside world,
12 and then later one telephone line was established for the whole of the
13 municipality; correct?
14 A. Yes, I'm talking about the whole of the municipality.
15 Q. So your only means of communication, apart from your physical
16 ability or inability to leave the municipality and then only to Banja
17 Luka, was this one telephone that was made to work?
18 A. Yes, in that period, yes.
19 Q. If I understood you correctly in your direct examination it was
20 not safe to travel because there were ambushes along roads and other
22 A. In June the road between Kotor Varos and Banja Luka was not safe
23 at all. A number of people were wounded, even killed, especially the
24 fork-offs towards Grabovica and other places where ambushes were set up
1 Q. They were set up by the Muslim and the Croat armies; correct?
2 A. That's quite clear, armed forces who were not with us and there
3 were other troops beside them.
4 Q. So the situation in the municipality in June and July 1992, if I
5 understood correctly what you said now, first you had no power, no
6 telephone communication, and the fact that there was no electricity makes
7 it difficult to supply water. And you also had the problem of refugees
8 coming from villages across the municipality to the town of Kotor Varos
9 A. We had a problem with refugees who escaped along the front lines
10 towards town. We had the problem of fuel. We had had refugees in Kotor
11 Varos from before, refugees from Croatia
12 Varos? Because in 1970s they bought land in Kotor Varos -- sorry, they
13 had bought land in Croatia
14 there they returned to Kotor Varos.
15 Q. When you speak of those refugees from Croatia, you mean Serbs who
16 had lived in Croatia
17 A. Yes, Serbs who had fled from Croatia to Kotor Varos.
18 Q. However, in addition to Serb refugees, there were also Croat and
19 Muslim refugees; right?
20 A. In June, certainly. As I said in my previous testimony, people
21 were leaving their villages and looking for a safe place, looking for
22 protection from us in the municipality. Some of them asked us to
23 transport them - some people would call it escorting them out. Anyway,
24 they wanted safe accommodation until transport was available, and there
25 were cases when Muslim families or Croat families from more remote
1 villages would come to town and find accommodation in the houses of their
3 Q. When you say "protection," they were seeking protection from the
4 war, from the conflicts that had engulfed their villages?
5 A. Yes, that was a by-product of armed conflict. There were always
6 people coming with completely different intentions, but most of them were
7 people who fled before armed conflict.
8 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many refugees you had in Kotor
9 Varos, the ratio of refugees to the population, the pre-war population?
10 A. In certain periods there were over 1.000 or 1500 refugees of Serb
11 ethnicity, those from Croatia
12 parts of our own municipality. And as for refugees who had just fled to
13 save their lives of other ethnicities, those refugees did not stay with
14 us long; they were just waiting for transport to other places and they
15 were provisionally accommodated. We've discussed this at length here.
16 Q. When you mention the sawing mill in direct examination, you were
17 shown Exhibit P46, and you confirmed that the Crisis Staff had
18 established that collection centre?
19 A. We had come to an agreement that we had no better accommodation
20 to offer. It used to be a restaurant, the cafeteria, the canteen of this
21 sawing mill, and there were also some workshops empty of equipment
22 available for accommodation.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness P66.
24 Q. You remember this map where you marked the location of the public
25 security station. I'm more interested now in that last photograph on the
1 right showing the prison in Kotor Varos. That is the remand prison next
2 to the court building, isn't it?
3 A. Yes, that was a prison used for a certain period before 1970 as a
4 remand facility, and from then until 1992 it was simply not used. In
5 1992 it was again re-activated as a detention facility and has never been
6 used as anything else but a prison.
7 Q. But as a remand prison; right?
8 A. Yes, as a remand prison. It's just behind the court building.
9 Q. Thank you. This prison in Maslovare on the territory of your
10 municipality, it was a military prison, wasn't it?
11 A. Frankly, I don't remember any prisons in Maslovare. I know that
12 some people were taken there. I don't know whether they spent the night,
13 but they were not there for long. It was a military prison because there
14 was no police and especially no court guards.
15 Q. Maybe it's my mistake. Maybe it was not a prison. Maybe it was
16 a collection centre, but at any rate it was under military control?
17 A. Yes, it was under military control.
18 Q. Thank you. During your direct examination you will remember that
19 my learned friend asked you about that fire at the Catholic church, it
20 was the 9th of October, page 73 of the transcript, lines 16 through 23,
21 you do remember, don't you?
22 A. I remember the incident. I remember being asked about it.
23 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, do you know that the public security station
24 filed a criminal complaint to the competent prosecutor's office after
25 that prosecutor's office had been set up pertaining to that incident?
1 A. It's possible that I knew about it, but I can't recall it now.
2 At any rate, I know about the fire. I know that we responded. I
3 remember we did something but I can't recall what.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you show 1D00-0821. Could we
5 zoom in a little. Could I have the Serbian version, please. No, this
6 is -- that's a different document. I need 1D00-0821. The English
7 document is correct but not the Serbian one. Used to be the right one,
8 but then you pulled it down. That's the document.
9 Q. First of all, let me ask you, when was the prosecutor's office
10 established and when did it become operative in Kotor Varos municipality
11 after May-June 1992, if you remember?
12 A. I cannot remember the exact dates. I'm not even sure it ever
13 stopped working. The judicial and prosecution authorities worked
14 continuously, I think, and the reason I remember this is I remember
15 discussions about who's going to be the prosecutor, who's going to the
16 front line, et cetera, so I'm pretty sure that the judicial authorities
17 and the prosecution continued to work throughout.
18 Q. Could you look at the criminal report on the left. It's a
19 criminal complaint against an unidentified perpetrator or perpetrators
20 pursuant to Article 172, paragraph 1, in Article 177 causing public
21 danger at the detriment of the Roman Catholic church in Kotor Varos.
22 Have you seen this document before?
23 A. No, this is the first time.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness the
25 second page.
1 Q. Just one question, this document was signed by Savo Tepic, chief
2 of SUP; correct?
3 A. Yes, he was chief at the time, and I think I see his signature.
4 Q. Attached to this criminal report is an Official Note, saying that
5 on the 2nd July 1992
6 Catholic church had been set on fire, and the whole incident is
7 explained, and the Official Note bears this date; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you remember that the church was set on fire on the 2nd July,
10 is it your recollection?
11 A. I can recollect the approximate time. I can't say whether it was
12 the 2nd or the 5th, but I remember the day when it was set on fire. I
13 know where I was then and how I reacted.
14 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that this Official Note is
16 A. No reason whatsoever especially because this person who signed on
17 the document was an inspector of the police station, I remember that.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honours, that the
19 witness has provided sufficient explanation, and if there is no objection
20 from the Prosecution, I would like to tender this document.
21 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D39, Your Honours.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. The last subject for today is the police. On the first day of
25 your direct examination led by my learned friend Ms. Korner on page 56,
1 date 8 October, line 10, you started saying that you had attended a
2 meeting with the police with Ante Mandic. My colleague asked you about
3 it, but what can you remember about this meeting? What was discussed
4 with the police? Anto Mandic was the president of the municipality and
5 you were the president of the SDS?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in this capacity you went to that meeting?
8 A. That meeting was held in the pensioners' community hall next to
9 the church, and representatives of all agencies in Kotor Varos was
10 present. And we went there as, let's say, political leaders. But there
11 was also a representative from the SDA party, and we were also trying to
12 persuade each other and the police how law and order should be protected,
13 that everyone should stay on the police force and do their jobs. We were
14 simply trying to maintain law and order together. Let me just say again
15 something that I've mentioned before. At the time when we were holding
16 this meeting attended by all representatives of the police, there was a
17 skirmish, an exchange of fire, before the pensioners' community hall.
18 There was this man Sprzo and some other people going along the streets,
19 firing into the air, running people down. It was a general chase all
20 over town and shooting.
21 Q. Yes, go ahead, but a little more slowly for the interpreters.
22 A. That's just what I wanted to add. That's this meeting, although
23 we had more than one meeting concerning the need to maintain law and
24 order, the community spirit, et cetera. But we said one thing at
25 meetings and quite another thing happened in practice.
1 MR. PANTELIC: The person who shooted [sic] at the pensioners'
2 hall, it was a member of HVO. Maybe we could clarify that with the
3 witness because it is not in the transcript I think.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, you heard my colleague. You mentioned the name
6 of that gentleman, member of the HVO, who while you were having that
7 meeting in the pensioners' hall led a group of HVO that shooted [as
8 interpreted] from fire-arms. Could you just say his name slowly?
9 A. We all called him Sprzo. We all knew him as Sprzo. I think his
10 real name was Maric. He shot not at the pensioners' hall, but he did
11 shoot at the building and in the air. And members of the police went out
12 and, like, walked him along. You can imagine what kind of scene that
13 was. Mandic and I stayed together for quite a while after that meeting
14 in the pensioners' hall. We had coffee and a few drinks, and we tried to
15 find solutions, and both of us saw that things were not funny anymore.
16 It was the month of May.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, the chief of the public security station was
18 Savo Tepic at the time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He came to the position of chief of SJB after the elections in
21 1990 and in keeping with the election agreement between national parties;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That would mean that Savo Tepic took over as chief of the public
25 security station of Kotor Varos in 1990?
1 A. Yes, as soon as the parties agreed and the new authorities were
2 put in place, Savo Tepic took over as chief of the police station
4 Q. That means that his election as chief of SJB was supported both
5 by HDZ and the SDA parties. It was an agreement?
6 A. Yes, it was an agreement. Everybody supported his election.
7 Nobody had objected.
8 Q. The actual decision to appoint him as chief of the public
9 security station of Kotor Varos was issued by the Ministry of the
10 Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, headed by
11 Minister Alija Delimustafic, who belonged to the SDA party, the Party of
12 Democratic Action?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember at that time were there any objections from
17 A. No, no, I don't remember any objections. There was only one
18 suggestion, namely, that it would be desirable to have a person graduated
19 in humanities rather than engineering. Savo was an engineer. And they
20 wanted three nominees for that position.
21 Q. In other words, Savo Tepic, when he was appointed in 1990 by the
22 ministry, which was headed by minister Alija Delimustafic, who was a
23 member of the SDA party, he was an engineer who basically had no
24 experience with policing whatsoever at the time, at least directly, yes
25 or no?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When conflict erupted, that is, in May-June 1992, Savo Tepic
3 remained chief and which had -- in the position where he had been since
4 1990; right?
5 A. Right, he did.
6 Q. There were no changes to that effect, were there?
7 A. No, no changes as to the chief of the police station.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions for this witness.
10 Q. Thank you for providing these answers, and I apologise to you
11 that you had to wait so long. It wasn't up to us and nor was it the will
12 of the Chamber. It was merely a result of circumstance.
13 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djekanovic.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
17 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic. On behalf of the Defence of Stojan
18 Zupljanin, I'm going to ask you a few questions. I apologise for saying
19 "Slobodan" instead of "Stojan." We tend to get -- we tend to confuse
20 those two names. So I'm going to ask you a few questions about your
21 previous testimony and about your testimony that you gave today.
22 Mr. Djekanovic, in replying to the questions of my learned friend,
23 Mr. Zecevic, about the events preceding the outbreak of conflict in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you spoke about the session held on the 14th of
25 October, 1991, you said so to the Prosecutor when the Serbian Members of
1 Parliament walked out of the parliament hall because they were down voted
2 by Muslim and Croat Members of Parliament. Do you remember those events?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. It is the position of the Defence that that very event, that down
5 voting, was the crucial moment because the constitutional rights of the
6 Serbian people had been infringed upon, and that's what incited the
7 avalanche in Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you agree with me?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As far as I understood what went on at that time in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, with regard to the position of the Serbian people the
11 members of the Muslim-Croat coalition had a similar plan as to that which
12 had been going on in Croatia
13 constitution and deleted the Serbs from the constitution as a
14 constitutive people in Croatia
15 rights; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. And that started the avalanche of conflict in Croatia, and so
18 that similar scenario was to be expected in Bosnia-Herzegovina and it was
19 obviously being prepared; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, for Bosnia-Herzegovina too. There had been several attempts
21 to preserve -- at least Bosnia
22 probably remember Muhamed Filipovic who tried to strike agreements in
24 nothing, and things developed in the direction that you outlined.
25 Q. And the constituting of the Serbian republic of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and all these organs was a direct outcome of that
2 parliamentary session and the behaviour of the Muslim-Croat coalition; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Absolutely, it was a direct outcome and -- because the
5 constitution of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had been
6 infringed upon.
7 Q. You spoke about the constituting of your own Serbian Assembly and
8 the attempts to protect the rights of Serbs and organise themselves
9 better within Bosnia-Herzegovina to the extent it was possible; correct?
10 A. Yes, but I would like to add that in my sincere opinion we had
11 always been forced to do things. We were always lagging behind things.
12 We never had the initiative to start something. We always reacted to
13 something that had already happened.
14 Q. And in reality with regard to the coalition agreement after the
15 multi-party elections, you as a member of your party did not expect the
16 subsequent development and you weren't prepared?
17 A. No, the SDS was not prepared.
18 Q. And what I have briefly outlined is your conviction and your view
19 of the events in which you took part and which you witnessed; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, speaking about the establishment of Crisis
22 Staffs, I may have overlooked something but I believe that you answered
23 to the Prosecutor that Crisis Staffs had been established in the Kotor
24 Varos municipality much before these events, namely, the arrival of
25 refugees from Croatia
1 A. Yes, some form of Crisis Staff we had much earlier, both us and
2 the others, earlier than the dates that are mentioned as the dates of
3 establishment because we had -- we had taken action before that.
4 Q. And you met for the first time to try to help the refugees who
5 were coming from Croatia
6 A. The first concrete activity was helping to accommodate these
7 people and the municipal organisation of the Red Cross, gathering aid for
8 those people such as food, clothing, et cetera.
9 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, can you explain the Chamber the notion of Crisis
10 Staff? It goes to mean that it's a body that established in a crisis
11 situation, others -- in an extraordinary circumstances, when things are
12 beyond normal. So that is the essence of both the name and of the
13 function of the Crisis Staff, irregular circumstances; right?
14 A. Yes, absolutely. So there must be extraordinary circumstances
15 and events.
16 Q. And the establishment of the Crisis Staff you understood to be an
17 activity to ensure normal functioning of the municipality and its bodies
18 until regular -- regular bodies are established; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, absolutely.
20 Q. And in the work of the Crisis Staff and the subsequent period,
21 not only members of the SDS took part in that but also persons who were
22 not SDS members; is that correct?
23 A. SDS membership was not essential. We wanted people who worked in
24 certain areas, who did certain jobs, but I would like to add that once
25 the conflict started in Croatia
1 Varos. But a dozen people or so had already been killed in Croatia
2 fighters fighting in the ranks of the JNA who -- which was established
3 under the laws and the constitution of the SFRY. So we had people from
4 Kotor Varos who had been killed, and we also took -- we also took care of
5 such activities in order to assist the families of those killed to bury
6 their dead.
7 Q. But the municipal bodies of the -- of Kotor Varos were not able
8 to get involved, but you tried to assist the families in burying their
10 A. Yes, that's what we did because the -- in -- the municipality
11 prefect did not want us to do anything so that the executive committee of
12 the municipality did not pass any decision to that effect. So we as a
13 Crisis Staff assisted the families to bury their killed family members.
14 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, I'll try to make an effort, but you make an
15 effort too because we speak the same language for behalf of -- or rather
16 for the sake of the Chamber.
17 A. Yes, I understand. I will make an effort.
18 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, in replying to the Prosecutor's question you
19 confirmed that on the 12th of May, 1992, you attended the Assembly of the
20 Republika Srpska in Banja Luka. Do you remember speaking about that
21 session? When the VRS was founded and a number of important decisions
22 for the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina was passed; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, I said that I attended that session, but what was decided
24 there was brought -- was brought to my mind again only after seeing the
25 relevant minutes. But yes, I was there and I know what happened.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up on e-court
2 Exhibit P74.
3 Your Honours, we have a problem with e-court here. Mr. Pantelic
4 took part in resolving the problem that we had with the OTP, but there is
5 a part which is not in e-court and it is important for this questioning
6 today. So Mr. Pantelic, who was involved in correcting the error in
7 e-court will now take over.
8 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues]... with our
9 learned friends from OTP, and Mr. Smith told us that it will be
10 corrected -- actually, what we see here on the screen are the original
11 minutes of the whole session of the Assembly, but prior to this page we
12 have four pages of actually minutes in shortened form with agenda. So we
13 have it in English language, these four pages, but apparently they are
14 missing in B/C/S language. So for the purpose of the next numbers I
15 think -- questions, maybe our friend from OTP can --
16 MS. KORNER: We're just checking. It's quite right, it was
17 brought to our attention. We're just checking to see whether it was
18 corrected. It may not have been corrected.
19 MR. PANTELIC: In any case what I could suggest is that we could
20 have on e-court pages -- previous pages of the document in English, the
21 ERN number is 0091-3501 up to 04. So we could have English version and
22 then with the help of interpreters maybe my friend can just brought
23 attention of this witness to certain portions and then we could have it
24 in transcript. And then on a later stage our friends I'm sure will
25 download this --
1 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid we can't --
2 MR. PANTELIC: -- few pages in B/C/S. I think that would be a
4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, what happened was that what we did
5 originally is we took out the English pages so that the B/C/S and English
6 corresponded. We haven't yet put back the English and the B/C/S. So at
7 the moment, I'm sorry, I'm afraid we can't assist.
8 MR. PANTELIC: It can be resolved like that. My friend will go
9 through these particular points, and then the witness will comment, and
10 then in later stage they can put. Thank you so much.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, could now
12 please ERN number 0091-3501 be called up.
13 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, this is what this is about, there is a minor
14 mismatch between the English translation and the original because the
15 agenda is missing. I want to show you a part of the agenda and the
16 decision that was taken with regard to that.
17 MS. KORNER: Okay. We can pull up the B/C/S but we can't pull up
18 the English at that moment, I'm afraid. We've got the first few pages in
19 B/C/S, so it's going to have to be the other way around -- oh, it's in
20 Sanction at the moment.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Under item 3, confirmation of the decisions and
23 other regulations passed by the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
24 BiH. Do you remember that some of these were actually confirmed at this
25 parliamentary session? I will later continue.
1 A. Yes, that was the practice for the Assembly to confirm the
2 decisions that the Presidency had passed at a moment when the Assembly --
3 when it wasn't possible to call an Assembly. But I can hardly remember
4 any one particular decision, but yes that was the practice to proceed
5 that way.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us see the next page of this
7 document, please. The next page. The B/C/S version differs from the
8 English copy that I have in my hand, so the next page, please.
9 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, we need the third page.
11 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, do look what it says under item 7, the decision
14 on the proclamation of imminent threat of war. That is one of decisions
15 that was confirmed by the Assembly, that there is an imminent threat of
16 war in the territory of the Republika Srpska?
17 A. As far as I see, item 7 reads that the Assembly adopted the bill
18 about the amendments of the law on people's defence.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat. The
20 interpreter didn't hear the question.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You remember that there was discussion about taking some measures
23 about this decision?
24 A. There was much decision about this item. I know that there was
25 much discussion about why not to immediately proclaim the state of war
1 rather than an imminent threat of war, but I don't remember the details
2 anyway. This is what it was about.
3 Q. For the sake of the interpretation I must repeat once more. So
4 here at this session the decision on the proclamation of the imminent
5 threat of war in the territory of Republika Srpska was passed; is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, as far as the situation is concerned I will now
9 take you back to the start of wartime activities in the municipality of
10 Kotor Varos.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since this document
12 should be an exhibit, I believe that we can resolve the issue in direct
13 communication with the OTP. So for these documents to become part of
14 Exhibit P47, so that for the time being I will not tender this part of
15 the document if that is acceptable. I see that the OTP are nodding in
17 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, you were saying in replying to the questions
18 asked by both the OTP and Mr. Zecevic, you were speaking about the
19 conflicts in the municipality of Kotor Varos in 1992. Let me take you
20 back to the start. It is obvious that all the events that happened in
21 June were preceded by tension and sporadic conflicts among members of all
22 three ethnicities in Kotor Varos, the municipality?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And all three sides had set up guards, barricades, everybody was
25 mindful to protect their village or hamlet or street because there was an
1 atmosphere of fear, as there had already been conflicts in Bosnia and
3 A. Yes, and this also calls for an amendment. Both I and Anto
4 Mandic and Fikret, from SDA, Abdic did visit the guards because we knew
5 where -- who had guards where. SDA had some guards in the streets that
6 they controlled, and that man stayed at Kotor Varos throughout the war.
7 I will not say that he didn't have any problems, but he didn't have
8 problems that could have occurred, fortunately.
9 Q. Do slow down a little because the interpreters cannot keep up
10 with you.
11 A. Sorry, I got carried away.
12 Q. Yes, I understand you, but I have to remind you to go a bit
13 slower. Could you please repeat this part.
14 A. Yes. So everybody had their guards. In the town itself the
15 guards were separated. There were attempts to have joint guards, but
16 that didn't succeed, but we knew who had guards in which streets. And I
17 said that on one occasion or several, but I do remember one clearly we
18 went to see those guards together, and we went to the Muslim guards in
19 lower Kotor Varos. So that was the situation at the time. Everybody had
20 their own guards, they were -- everybody was scared, but unfortunately
21 everybody was also preparing for the worst, namely, for war.
22 Q. And before the events of mid-June 1992, there were movements of
23 the population so that some Serb inhabitants of the outskirts of the
24 municipality that were encircled by Croatian villages started moving into
25 Kotor Varos; isn't that correct?
1 A. Yes, there were such instances.
2 Q. You spoke about the 11th of June here as the date when the
3 Serbian forces decided to take full control, let's say in the
4 municipality of Kotor Varos. Can you tell us something about the
5 incidents that preceded these events and what was the immediate cause for
6 the decision to take control in the municipality of Kotor Varos? Do you
7 recall the incidents that preceded that act? I'm going to focus you on
8 two of them, the one in Sipovici and the one in Vasiljevici, can you tell
9 us anything about that?
10 A. Yes, there were other things happening in the course of May,
11 other than those two incidents. There was an attempt by all three of the
12 national parties to organise a public forum where we were supposed to
13 assemble the public intelligence and the political elite of Kotor Varos
14 and to make an effort to avoid the war conflict. The idea was to hold
15 this meeting in the Kotor Varos cinema, but the SDA and the HDZ went
16 behind our backs and made a completely different arrangement. So instead
17 of setting it up in the cinema in Kotor Varos they organised it in the
18 sports stadium of Kotor Varos and invited their own sympathisers. So
19 there was a lot of provocations that took place, and then behind that
20 location armed members of the HVO were walking around and stories were
21 already circulating in town almost every evening how these two parties
22 would take over power in Kotor Varos at the time this evening or that
23 evening. In any case, there was a lot of fear among all sides. And then
24 the prevailing opinion on our side was that it was about time to do
25 something ourselves instead of getting caught out. Before that things
1 happened, not only the ones that you referred to, there were barricades
2 being set up in several places, the ones followed by ultimatums. And I
3 recall very well that I went with members of the police, with Anto
4 Mandic, to this village of Vecici
5 difficult to get out there of that village. People were up in the trees
6 and there were barricades so it was difficult to get out. And then this
7 killing of this family happened. I don't remember the exact date, and I
8 think the court case is being brought to its completion for the murder of
9 a family in Glamoc by the courts in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 There were killings also in other hamlets and villages around
11 Vecici. There were small settlements or hamlets settled by Serbs, and so
12 there were some shootings and provocations happening in those areas too.
13 Q. Just one correction, we're talking about the killing of the
14 Glamocak family, not a family from Glamoc. So we're talking about the
15 killing of the Glamocak family in the village of Sipovi
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And they were of Serb ethnicity; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know that a person called Neskobic [phoen] was sentenced
20 to the Bosnia and Herzegovina court to a sentence of nine years. I read
21 this in the newspaper. Does that refer to this incident?
22 A. Yes, it does refer to this incident. I don't know if this was a
23 final decision, but I know that a judgement was passed and the sentence
24 too. I don't know if the person is actually -- has began to serve his
1 Q. And then this killing in the village of Vasiljevici
2 happened sometime before the take-over of power?
3 A. Vasiljevici is a hamlet above the village of Vecici
4 where the killing happened in that period of time. The communication
5 with the municipality -- actually, the road passed through the village of
6 Vecici that led to our municipality --
7 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated].
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, before Mr. Krgovic continues, can I
12 just raise one matter. I've discussed this with my learned friends in
13 the break. Mr. Zecevic concluded his cross-examination without putting
14 to the witness at all that when he said - and I'm looking at the
15 transcript on the 8th of October, Thursday, at page 1101 and 1102 - that
16 the Crisis Staff did not have the authority to order the police, we could
17 not issue orders to the police. We did not have the right to do that.
18 That was not challenged, and I asked if that evidence was accepted
19 because if it's not challenged we're entitled to assume it's accepted,
20 and Mr. Zecevic says it is not accepted. In which case I said that then
21 that must be put to the witness that he's not right when he says that.
22 And I understand Mr. Zecevic has a problem with that which perhaps he can
23 explain. But, Your Honours, I think it's important that this is dealt
24 with now.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, there are two aspects of this.
1 Aspect number one is I believe during the cross-examination the witness
2 said -- I cannot find it right now in the transcript, but if you give me
3 some time I will. I was asking him, "Did you have the overall power as a
4 Crisis Staff on the municipality?" He says, "Yes, except for the
5 military matters." That is -- as far as I am concerned that is actually
6 counter to what he said in the direct examination, where he was saying
7 that he didn't control either the police or the military. Today he said
8 only military. As far as I'm concerned, this is a challenge of what he
9 says -- what he said to my learned friend in the -- during the direct --
10 cross-examination. Therefore, I didn't want to pursue the matter
11 anymore. We had the documents which confirmed that they were giving, in
12 fact, orders to the police. That's one aspect.
13 The other aspect, Your Honours, again we're coming back to the
14 issue of he -- him being a suspect. If I ask him, "Did you control --
15 did you order the police?" And he says, "Yes," he's incriminating
16 himself. I mean, this has to be again in a sense addressed. We need to
17 know how to proceed in these situations. That is my comment. Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I mean -- I can certainly deal
19 if Mr. Zecevic and Your Honours take the view that that's sufficient, we
20 controlled everybody except the military say the police, then I can deal
21 with that in re-examination and go back to what on the face of it is now
22 contradictory answers. But I don't think that in itself is sufficient to
23 put to a witness that a clear and one of the few unambiguous statements
24 he made is not accepted. So that's the first thing.
25 As to the second point, Your Honours, with the greatest of
1 respect I don't think Your Honours should be considering what any
2 position may be in any other court. For the moment I'm just leaving it.
3 I'm hoping to get information to put before Your Honours to show that any
4 suggestion that this can be used, that answers which might incriminate
5 him and which he's told to answer in this court can be used against him
6 in subsequent proceedings in another court is incorrect. I've made
7 certain inquiries to confirm my own knowledge, but at the moment I can't
8 put something before Your Honours. But it's absolutely clear in any
9 event in the law that Mr. Zecevic quoted to you that evidence can be
10 excluded if it is more prejudicial than probative and clearly if an
11 answer was, as it were, forced out, he was forced to answer a question
12 which might incriminate him that would come within that aspect of the
14 But in any event we would argue that what may happen in another
15 court is not for Your Honours to concern yourself with at the moment.
16 But, Your Honours, I think the better point is: Do Your Honours feel
17 that that is sufficient that today he only mentioned the military and not
18 the police in the light of what he said earlier and I believe said twice
19 in chief?
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner and Mr. Zecevic, obviously the
22 control which the Crisis Staff had over the police is an essential issue.
23 This is very obvious from the case, so we thought that it might actually
24 be helpful to the Chamber if that point could be taken up just to clarify
25 the answer that he gave to you this morning because we all -- it turns
1 out that all three Judges took exactly that note, that he said that he
2 had control over everything except the military. So I think if we can
3 ask Mrs. Korner to bring it up and to clarify with the witness while he's
4 here and -- but to do so in a manner that doesn't lure him into a trap
5 that may later on be held against him if criminal proceedings are raised
6 in other courts. I -- I'm not going to engage in a discussion about this
7 fact, but I think that there is a potential for using testimonies before
8 this Tribunal as evidence in other courts. So I think Mr. Zecevic during
9 his cross-examination steered very skillfully around the issues that
10 might become difficult for the witness later on --
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, -- yes, I'm sorry, but he didn't -- he
12 doesn't -- I don't think he wants the answer, as I wouldn't if I were
13 defending. But as Your Honours say, it's such an important matter that
14 if the Defence case is he is not telling the truth or is mistaken about
15 that, it has to be properly put. But -- and proceedings in other courts,
16 I'm afraid, should not be troubling this Trial Chamber because although
17 of course were he could be prosecuted for his part in these events, what
18 he says here will go. The judges there do have a discretion under their
19 laws to exclude evidence. And I'm aware that that has been done, and I
20 can put it no higher than that at the moment. But my point is simply,
21 and it's one that will affect future witnesses, if something is not
22 accepted by a defendant of such importance to an issue in the case then
23 it must be put in clear terms. But I am perfectly willing to deal with
24 this in re-examination. My only query is what happens if in
25 re-examination he says now I couldn't give orders and that's not the
2 But anyhow, Your Honours, there's one other matter which the
3 Registrar raised with me, apparently he's due to fly back this afternoon.
4 I do have to deal with that in re-examination and two other matters which
5 he dealt with that came out as a result of cross-examination. I don't
6 know how much longer Mr. Krgovic has got, but it seems to me he may not
7 be able to fly back if we're stopping at quarter to 2.00.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: There is -- there are 60 minutes left,
9 Mr. Krgovic. How much time do you need?
10 MR. KRGOVIC: I will do my best, Your Honour, to conclude my
11 cross-examination before the break.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: That is to say you're going to use the next hour?
13 MR. KRGOVIC: Probably. Depends on the answer, but I got -- the
14 very narrow issues of the case.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. I mean, in that case he won't be able
16 to leave? We're sorry we have to contact --
17 MS. KORNER: No, he won't unless we use -- the only suggestion I
18 had, Your Honours, is if we've got Court III and if we're going to have
19 interpreters perhaps we could finish him off at 2.15 this afternoon if
20 it's just ten minutes' worth of re-examination.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: The Registrar informs us that it will take too
23 long time to set up Courtroom III for this purpose. So the only way in
24 which we can conclude his testimony is by, once again, turning to the
25 interpreters. And I'm really not very happy about having to do that
1 because I think the interpreters are carrying such a huge load for us and
2 I would feel bad about having to ask them once again to sit here for
3 another half hour or whatever it takes to finish it.
4 MS. KORNER: Obviously, he'll have to stay and just be here for
5 tomorrow morning then.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm afraid so.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]
9 MS. KORNER: No, I think, Your Honour -- obviously this is
10 important, as Your Honours realise.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: So we will adjourn at 1.45, as scheduled, and
12 hope that we can then finish Witness 181 off tomorrow morning.
13 Mr. Krgovic.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Unfortunately, the witness is not here.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, let us continue where we left off before the
18 break. Just one clarification. When I asked you about the villages and
19 the incident in the village of Vasiljevici
20 Vasiljevici is a Serb village, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the shepherd who was killed in the village of Vasiljevici
23 a Serb, wasn't he?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, you spent a lot of time talking about the
1 situation in Kotor Varos in 1992, and I'm going to just say in a few
2 words how I understood your words. It was war in the territory of
3 municipality of Kotor Varos. There were many people killed, wounded,
4 refugees on all three sides. Isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Lack of consumer articles, the presence of different military
7 formations in the municipality area, constant tension. In brief it was
8 an actual state of war, an actual war situation?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. And the functioning of the municipal organs and all other organs
11 was guided by those conditions, wasn't it?
12 A. Well, the situation corresponded to the conditions that
13 prevailed. There was no agreement. It was impossible to come to any
14 kind of decision. The organs of power were not functioning. I said that
15 the -- each chief of police was informing his own people in Sarajevo
16 Banja Luka; the Croats were informing their people, I'm talking about the
17 police chiefs. So it was a difficult situation and the war had engulfed
18 practically the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 Q. After the 11th of June, a fierce conflict broke out in the Kotor
20 Varos area as well?
21 A. On the 11th of June you could really say that there were no
22 conflicts really. There were no killings, no re-settlement of the
23 population. Everybody was rallying around their own groups. There were
24 no killings on the 11th itself, and that can even apply to the 12th.
25 Q. But then after the combat began in the areas around Kotor Varos
1 and Kotor Varos itself, general conflict broke out in the whole of the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there were many casualties as a result of that conflict;
5 isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes, there were many casualties.
7 Q. Now I'm just going to give you a piece of information speaking
8 about the strength of the Croat-Muslim coalition. It's a fact saying
9 that 400 people were killed and 650 people were wounded during the combat
10 in Kotor Varos until the situation calmed down. I'm speaking about
11 Serbian casualties.
12 A. Yes, it's accurate data about the casualties. I cannot really
13 tell you how many Serbs were killed in the territory of Croatia
14 the conflicts here broke out, but overall there were about 400 killed
15 victims in the area of Kotor Varos and there was a large number of the
16 wounded, many of whom were actually civilians.
17 Q. And this number who were actually killed in Croatia, I mean it's
18 about ten-odd people that we're talking about; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After the situation calmed down somewhat in June, the
21 Muslim-Croat formations changed their tactics and began to set up
22 ambushes and carry out attacks along the roads, moving on to a kind of
23 guerilla-type conflict in the entire municipality of Kotor Varos
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And it was normal that the units of the Territorial Defence and
2 the army had to carry out military actions in order to neutralise these
3 units that were in the areas around Kotor Varos; is that correct?
4 A. For the first seven, eight, or ten days the line actually was in
5 the town itself. The Vrbanja river was a front line, and in the town
6 itself we had people who were killed by sniper fire from snipers firing
7 around -- positions around the town of Kotor Varos from neighbouring
9 Q. As a result of those actions and the conflict between the
10 Croat-Muslim and Serb forces, the civilian population withdrew from those
11 villages and entered the town. This is what I understood from your
12 testimony. Is that correct?
13 A. A smaller number of people came to town, where the bulk actually
14 through their representatives in the negotiations, sought to move out and
15 leave the area of the Kotor Varos municipality, and this is -- this
16 situation in which these convoys were formed which some people are
17 interpreting in this way and some people are interpreting in another way.
18 But we believed that they were the best way to protect a substantial part
19 of the population, and these convoys were the means by which people left
20 to other parts of the country.
21 Q. It was essential to remove those people from combat zones because
22 the fighting there was continual and there were ambushes and attacks; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes, it was essential and the people themselves wanted to leave
25 those areas.
1 Q. There were ambushes in that period in which Colonel Stevilovic
2 was killed and Markovic who was a police official. This was in an -- in
3 a road ambush, and they were killed and massacred?
4 A. Yes, there was an ambush and the two of them were killed, along
5 with one other civilian -- actually, they had given a ride to two
6 civilians in their car. The three of them were not only killed but they
7 were butchered. Their skulls were smashed. The car was riddled with
8 bullets and one of the civilians was captured and taken with the
9 attackers, and he spent about a month or so on enemy territory.
10 Q. And this was followed by a military action attacking Croat-Muslim
11 positions and the fighting continued, didn't it?
12 A. Yes. In any case there was a military response against the
13 Vecici settlement. I don't remember whether it was on that occasion
14 because there was several attacks that ensued on that road where
15 civilians were killed and wounded. In one of those attacks on the
16 village of Vecici a group was arrested. I don't know how many of them,
17 but I did see them with my own eyes when they were brought in. So a
18 group of soldiers was arrested. Some were killed, some were arrested,
19 and after a long negotiation about the wounded soldiers they were brought
20 in a tractor-trailer which was loaded with a whole pile of bodies that
21 were scorched that had been in a fire that were massacred.
22 Q. Another question that has to do with this area. In Croat-Muslim
23 villages there were no conflicts. You told the Prosecutor about those
24 villages, and you showed those villages on a map for the Prosecutor.
25 There was no movement of population or armed conflicts in those villages;
1 is that correct?
2 A. Well, you couldn't say that nobody left those villages.
3 Individually people did leave, but the bulk of villagers stayed in
4 Siprage and Barici and other villages. The bulk of those inhabitants
5 stayed. A significant portion of the Muslim population also remained in
7 Q. So I understand that what you understood of the situation is that
8 Muslim civilians were evacuated only from those villages that were in
9 conflict and those villages where there was no conflict no population
10 really left the villages?
11 A. Yes, in any case nowhere were the civilians removed by force. In
12 any place where stability could be maintained and where people wanted to
13 stay, they stayed. I have firm evidence of that, I have witnesses, I
14 have written material and statement, but that is not the topic of what
15 we're talking about now. In any case, there was security for those
16 people in Marici [as interpreted], in Siprage, people were in those
17 villages. I don't know that any excess or any incident occurred. I
18 haven't heard of anything out of the ordinary taking place in such
19 villages. Mostly they were safe where they were.
20 Q. As a result of the killing of those Serb civilians, the tensions
21 grew in town itself. There was pressure from victims' families on you.
22 There were cases of retaliation and revenge against some members of the
23 Croat-Muslim forces. Isn't that right?
24 A. Unfortunately, that was the situation. It was unbearable and
25 looking at it from now I think we did quite well to go through all of
1 that. I did refer to those families a couple of days ago during my
2 testimony. There were days when we would bury 12 or 16 people. There
3 was no day that would pass without funerals. And on top of all the
4 things that we had to do in that period most of our work actually had to
5 do with organising funerals.
6 Q. And did you know what happened --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat his question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was the result and
9 a response, but I don't justify such a response. But it did happen.
10 It's true that the evening before in this village of Kotor
11 Vrbanja river some people were killed. While they were asleep a bomb was
12 thrown into the bedroom as they were sleeping and then there was this
13 reaction, military reaction in the morning. And then as a consequence of
14 this military action is what happened among a sector of those people, but
15 I don't justify those actions in any way.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].
17 Q. My question was not recorded. I asked about this incident in the
18 health centre. Your reply was the reply to this question?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Local people were killed in their sleep, people from Kotor?
21 A. Yes, a number of people were brought from Kotor where this
22 incident happened.
23 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, you described in your prior testimony the rising
24 of tensions between various police forces, military forces, lack of
25 coordination in their work, mutual apportioning of blame. Was that what
1 was happening in Kotor Varos?
2 A. Yes, especially in the last days of June -- sorry, the whole of
3 June and the first ten days of July. There was a great shortage of
4 coordination and very poor linkage between forces in military operations.
5 Q. That made you quite angry. What happened when one such action
6 led to the death of a number of people because it was poorly coordinated?
7 A. Just one example. It was another military action in that part of
8 town near Kotor. We had information that up to noon we were to expect
9 our first military success. Then a number of commanders went each their
10 own way, made themselves scarce. Things ran out of control and things
11 took a completely different turn. Some people got wounded, an ambulance
12 went to fetch them, the staff of the ambulance vehicle including the
13 driver was killed, some people were captured. Complete chaos ensued in
14 town but also in the units on the territory of Kotor
15 Q. And that was why you addressed Stojan Zupljanin at that picnic,
16 that lunch you had, you mentioned it before?
17 A. I addressed not only Stojan Zupljanin, but also Mr. Peu lic and
18 the other Zupljanin who was commander of some unit. So it was a broader
19 discussion, not just one on one.
20 Q. Just let me clarify this, although I understand it from your
21 interview and your testimony. When you discussed all these matters, that
22 was the only conversation of that kind you had with Stojan Zupljanin?
23 A. In that period, yes.
24 Q. Yes, in 1992.
25 A. Perhaps at some other points in 1992 towards the end we met more
1 frequently when the Assembly started to work. But in June and July, that
2 was the only occasion I spoke to him apart from the contacts we had or
3 were supposed to have through the War Presidency, and the chief of the
4 public security station Savo Tepic also took part in this. I don't
5 remember that we had any more discussions on that topic.
6 Q. And this was practically the main subject because you were quite
7 concerned and very upset over what happened. You expressed your
8 dissatisfaction over the lack of coordination and the general military
9 situation in your area?
10 A. Certainly, and we made no secret of our views, and we also
11 imparted to them the positions taken by the Crisis Staff.
12 Q. When you were interviewed by the OTP, the Prosecution asked you
13 about the date of this meeting, whether this meeting happened before the
14 incident at the health centre or after, and you said you couldn't
15 remember. You still can't remember, can you?
16 A. I really cannot give you a time-line of these events. I did not
17 keep any documents. I did not keep record. I'm not that kind of person.
18 I just cannot give you the chronological order of these events, whether
19 it was before or after the health centre.
20 Q. In that broader discussion, that informal talk over lunch, you
21 addressed all those present, not specifically Stojan Zupljanin?
22 A. Well, a group of us sort of went to one side. I don't think I
23 actually stayed for lunch. We just went to one side and discussed this,
24 the people I've already enumerated.
25 Q. And you did not discuss specific incidents. You spoke of
1 problems and incidents. You did not go like, this happened in this and
2 that place in such and such a time. It was in general terms?
3 A. Yes, we discussed in general terms the problems we were facing
4 and the need to coordinate that, to put these things under control so
5 that nothing like that happens again.
6 Q. And you probably said that this communication with Zupljanin
7 should go through Savo Tepic?
8 A. Yes, I've already said that. To me it was a normal line of
10 Q. We mentioned Savo Tepic. You knew him. What kind of person is
11 he? Is he a straightforward person who would readily share information
12 with you and with others? What sort of contact did you have with him?
13 A. Savo Tepic tends to keep things to himself. Later on he was
14 reluctant to get involved and share information that he actually could
15 have shared. When we would sit down and talk he was always rather grim,
16 in a bad mood. And we even had a problem over these disagreements and
17 this lack of readiness to cooperate, and even though we didn't want to
18 interfere with the work of the police it led to incidents. Savo Tepic
19 didn't like interference, and we did not interfere. So even if we did
20 not always give him as much support as we -- as he should have liked, we
21 certainly didn't interfere.
22 Q. And even when he attended official meetings or failed to attend
23 them, you always had the impression, didn't you, that he was making
24 pretexts in order not to go?
25 A. Well, I can understand that. I know that on the one hand you are
1 supposed to go to Banja Luka to attend these meetings, and you never get
2 any feedback from him. If a person really wants to they can always find
3 a means to get there. At least in June and July he was a very frightened
4 man. He barely ever left the police building.
5 Q. This -- what you just said is about Savo Tepic because it's not
6 clear from the record?
7 A. Yes, Savo Tepic.
8 Q. And he had a nickname "Very Urgent" because he would always say
9 he had something urgent to attend to but never said any more about it?
10 A. Yes, our colleagues on the Crisis Staff called him "Very Urgent."
11 There was a label on documents in MUP, and he would often say, "I'm
12 urgently, very urgently, required elsewhere," and he would use it as a
13 pretext to leave the session of the Crisis Staff.
14 Q. Talking about this incident outside the health centre, you didn't
15 have any detailed information about what was going on. You just heard
16 from the director that some people were murdered?
17 A. Precisely. I just got a report at Crisis Staff, and of course
18 there was more talk later that reached me. But the first report I got
19 from the director of the health centre.
20 Q. You did not know who the perpetrators were or any other facts?
21 A. No, I never found out the names.
22 Q. And various stories circulated that those were irregular units,
23 all local units, but you never found out for certain who killed those
25 A. Never. I know that people talked, some of our own local people
1 talked, that these murders were committed by members of special units.
2 But I cannot imagine that Rajko Skoric was mentioned as a possible
3 perpetrator in some documents.
4 Q. Correction -- sorry, the witness didn't say that it was special
5 units, but local units.
6 A. I found that -- out about that later. At first we just got a
7 preliminary report at the Crisis Staff that some people were killed. But
8 then various stories started circulating around town, and there were
9 suspicions against various people and some names began to be mentioned,
10 including Rajko Skoric.
11 Q. So you learned later that some of the locals took part in this
13 A. Actually, I learned that some of the locals were present on the
15 Q. And you heard that much later because there was no one like Savo
17 A. No. At the Crisis Staff we really had no details. We did not
18 know either the number of people who were killed or the perpetrators.
19 Q. And it's possible that if local people were involved, that
20 information would be kept back from you and those real perpetrators would
21 try to blame someone else?
22 A. Yes. There were of course attempts to shift blame, but those
23 were times when nobody really assumed any responsibility, and no one had
24 the time to investigate thoroughly. It was never a priority, not even
25 for us. We never made a decision to investigate the whole matter through
1 and through. But we did try to prevent anything like that from happening
2 again. And actually, I can't recall any more incidents on that scale.
3 There was perhaps one more minor incident later. There was a couple of
5 Q. And you in the Crisis Staff did your best to prevent further
6 incidents of the sort?
7 A. We absolutely tried, and I believe there is evidence of that, and
8 I think you can freely say that as of mid-July no such things happened
10 Q. And you urged members of the police, the army, and other forces
11 to work on it, to prevent such things?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm sorry, the last part of your answer was: And we did achieve
14 good results?
15 A. Yes, I think our efforts really resulted in something.
16 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, the OTP asked you a series of questions about
17 commanding that special unit. You said then that, both in your interview
18 and here, that you weren't sure who of them was the commander. If I were
19 to put to you that the commander of that unit was --
20 MS. KORNER: Could I have a reference to the page in the
21 interview, please.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: It takes some time, Your Honour, because my learned
23 colleague mentioned that in examination-in-chief but -- [Microphone not
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't want to delay matters, but
1 perhaps Mr. Krgovic can point it out to me when he's finished.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I haven't heard, can I continue?
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, you are going to ask about "that
4 special unit." What special unit do you mean? I don't see what it's
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The unit that was in Kotor Varos,
7 that's what I meant, Your Honours, and its commanding personnel. The
8 unit that was in Kotor Varos in the summer of 1991, a special unit.
9 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, do you know by any chance that that unit was
10 commanded by Captain Lukic, member of the 1st Krajina Corps, and that
11 that unit had a mixed composition. It consisted of both military units
12 and police units, and they also had military IDs. Do you know about
14 A. I must be -- I must sincerely admit that I didn't know all those
15 details. I don't know them now even, so I cannot really corroborate what
16 you said with any certainty. I said on the last day when I was
17 questioned here that I don't know whether that unit even was completely
18 manned or whether it was just part of a larger unit. I heard of
19 Mr. Lukic, but whether or not he was the commander of that special unit I
20 must admit I do not know.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: We're talking about a police unit. Is that
22 correctly understood?
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our position differs
24 somewhat from that of the OTP. We consider that unit not to have been a
25 purely police unit -- I'm sorry, I apologise. It really wasn't my
1 intention to --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: This is exactly the reason why I asked, because I
3 want to make sure that we --
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I may have stated my case now that
5 is the position of the Defence, but I do apologise for that. I really
6 try not to make speeches here and put forward my own positions when
7 trying to obtain evidence, but it does happen.
8 Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let us elicit from the witness again what is his
11 views on the identity of this special unit. Was it a special police unit
12 or a special military unit or a special unit of volunteers or TO or where
13 are we? What kind of special unit was it?
14 Can you help us understand this, Mr. Djekanovic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for this question. I
16 know for sure that among those people who were in Kotor Varos there were
17 some who had never been with the police. I even mentioned the name of
18 Slobodan Dubocanin, and I know that he has never been a police officer.
19 And it seemed to me -- seems strange to me too for such a person to
20 command a police unit, and there are others who had never been with the
21 police. So I cannot really -- I don't really know what to make of all
22 that, but some people from our municipality joined that unit later. I
23 know that so -- I know instances of that to have happened, Your Honours.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, I --
25 Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Pantelic have just suggested to me that with regard
1 to the OTP's remark of putting forward our own position, that I should
2 try to elicit through the witness about the relations between the police
3 and the Crisis Staff and that sort of thing. So if you allow, I would
4 like to clarify that with the witness now.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do, but I see that we are actually a bit
6 ahead of our time, and if we could conclude the testimony of this witness
7 today I'm sure it would be very helpful. Mr. Krgovic --
8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
10 MS. KORNER: I can't conclude my re-examination today,
11 particularly in the view of the very last answers and the fact that I've
12 got to now check the interviews.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
14 Mr. Krgovic, please carry on with your cross-examination.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, I apologise but I will ask for some more of your
18 time. Many documents have been shown to you and tendered into evidence,
19 and they pertain to the relations between the Crisis Staff and the police
20 in the municipality of Kotor Varos, and in our conclusions as to the
21 relations between all Crisis Staffs and the security forces in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I will focus on this aspect of the relations between
23 the police and the Crisis Staff, and I will show you some documents and
24 put forward our position with regard to that.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness
1 the 65 ter document number --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the document
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Registrar could help
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]...
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00690.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The document has already been admitted as Exhibit
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, the document is about to appear on your screen.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us see the second page, please.
13 Q. Mr. Djekanovic, take a careful look at the document. You have
14 seen these documents briefly when they were introduced, but now I'll ask
15 you to read it carefully.
16 A. I've read it.
17 Q. This is an order to impose a curfew in Kotor Varos municipality.
18 This is a decision of the Crisis Staff, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Here you're actually issuing an order as this document reads.
21 "The Crisis Staff hereby issues an order to the Army of the
22 Serbian Republic
23 That's what it says?
24 A. Yes, beyond a doubt this is what it says, and the Crisis Staff
25 consisted of all of us so it was our joint decision.
1 Q. This is a joint decision taken by you and the police?
2 A. It's a decision by the Crisis Staff because it was within the
3 remit of the Crisis Staff.
4 Q. But it was also -- it also includes some powers, that is, some
5 remit of the police, doesn't it?
6 A. Yes, when it comes to implementation. But it refers not only to
7 the police but also to military structures, that is, those controlling
8 the security situation in town.
9 Q. And as far as I understood this document, you - the Crisis
10 Staff - are ordering to the police and the military to implement some
11 decisions; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, but this decision was necessary for everybody, the military,
13 the police, and the questioning so far I have said that there was a state
14 of war.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness Exhibit
16 P86, please.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt but an urgent
18 matter has come up, and as this witness is going to have to come back
19 tomorrow I wonder if we could adjourn at this stage. It's a matter I
20 need to address Your Honours on pretty urgently.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: I agree, Your Honour.
22 MS. KORNER: Are you happy with that?
23 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah.
24 MS. KORNER: Yeah.
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djekanovic, I will have explained to you at the
1 beginning of the day's session that one can't always predict the progress
2 of these matters, and I know that you were all prepared to return home
3 today, but as you would have gathered between what has passed between
4 counsel and the Bench that your testimony still is not completed, and you
5 would have to delay your return until tomorrow. And you would be
6 required to attend the Tribunal again tomorrow. So you are now stood
7 down as a witness but you're not excused, and I repeat the warnings that
8 I would have given last week, that you cannot discuss your testimony with
9 counsel from either side or with anyone outside of the chamber.
10 So you are excused now to return tomorrow morning at 9.00.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 MS. KORNER: Could we go into private session, please, Your
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 1471-1473 redacted. Private session.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of
25 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.