1 Wednesday, 21 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to everyone. May we have the
9 appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, good morning. It's Joanna Korner,
11 Alex Demirdjian and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. The
13 co-Defence counsel and the Defence team of Mico Stanisic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene O'Sullivan, legal advisor.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin Defence
16 this morning, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and I have special honour to
17 announce Ms. Michelle Butler, our legal consultant, and just for the
18 record, special legal weapon for Defence against the Prosecution. Thank
19 you so much.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may we revert this morning, before
21 Mr. Gasi comes back, to Your Honours' ruling yesterday, and we are
22 seeking clarification. We did ask for a written decision, and I believe
23 Mr. O'Sullivan wants to address Your Honours on the matter, but from our
24 point of view, what Judge Harhoff said yesterday was this:
25 "The Chamber may decide whether she is an expert or not. On this
1 question, the Chamber has deliberated and ruled. She is qualified as an
2 expert. The next question is what to do then with her report. You will
3 bring it under Rule 94 bis as an expert report, and it is for the Defence
4 to challenge. If at the end of the challenge raised by the Defence, the
5 Chamber finds that there is really nothing of substantive value in this
6 report, just as an example, then of course the Chamber has to be free to
7 say we will not admit the report or at least not all of it."
8 Your Honours, what is still, I am afraid, unclear to us, is
9 whether Your Honours are admitting the report under Rule 94 so that it
10 can go in as an exhibit, and then deciding, having heard the evidence,
11 what weight to attach to which parts of the report. Because, Your Honour
12 Judge Harhoff, used the word "will decide" whether to admit and that's
13 what we are just querying. In other words, when Ms. Hanson is called, as
14 with other experts, does her report as she is called go in as an exhibit
15 and then we deal with such parts of it as we think relevant and the
16 Defence deal with other parts. So that you then decide what weight, if
17 any, you attach to such parts of the report. That's our query this
19 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
20 JUDGE HALL: The practical way of viewing our ruling yesterday is
21 that the -- having deemed her as an expert, by virtue of that fact, her
22 report becomes admissible. Everything after that is a question of
23 weight. So we would -- as the Chamber, we would have to see what is --
24 what to make of that report after especially cross-examination. So her
25 report is in but everything thereafter is a question of weight.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honours, that's helpful. Before I
2 deal with the practical consequences of this, I think Mr. O'Sullivan has
3 something to say on the matter.
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. The -- for the
5 record, yesterday at the conclusion of the discussion on this,
6 Judge Harhoff said that if the parties requested it there would be a
7 written ruling, and yesterday the parties did informally contact the
8 Chamber by e-mail requesting a written ruling and I wish just to place
9 that request on the record. It came both from the Prosecution and the
10 Defence for a written ruling. Our intention is to seek certification of
11 your decision and under Rule 73(C), our certification must be filed with
12 you within seven days of your written ruling.
13 That being the case, we would wish to request a stay of the
14 testimony of this witness until there has been a ruling on our request
15 for certification. This witness should not be heard because we, with all
16 due respect, wish to challenge your ruling on appeal and we were seeking
17 your leave for certification to bring this before the Appeals Chamber.
18 So we say that the witness shall not be heard pending the ruling on your
19 behalf on our request for certification which will follow your written
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I assist on the timing?
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I was going to say was, in any
24 event, we foresee enormous difficulties in calling Ms. Hanson this week
25 now. We've still got this witness, who is still in chief, another
1 witness to follow and I think the estimate of cross-examination was not
2 less than a couple of hours and he is a couple of hours in chief. We are
3 not sitting beyond, as I understand it, Thursday lunch time, tomorrow
4 lunch time. We have an unmovable witness on Monday, followed by two
5 further unmovable witnesses, and big witnesses, who are answering
6 summonses on Tuesday and Thursday of next week. So the reality is, we
7 wouldn't, in any event, be able to put Ms. Hanson in. So that's why I
8 thought I'd better tell you.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: So in essence, you would agree to the proposal
10 made by the Defence that they be given their full seven days to respond
11 in good order to the written ruling that we are going to hand down very
13 MS. KORNER: Yes, I mean, as a matter of -- that's what I was
14 going to say, as a matter of practical reality.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you also request then two weeks in addition to
16 respond to the motion made by the --
17 MS. KORNER: No, no, we'll respond very quickly to that,
18 Your Honour. We only requested that the proper time for the intercept
19 motion, but if an appeal -- if an application for leave to appeal is
20 filed, we will respond very quickly. I think the actual consequences of
21 all of this is, at Your Honours' urging, we've literally stacked -- as
22 we've discovered when Judge Delvoie worked out the timings on our
23 witness, we have witnesses stacked between now and Christmas, subject to
24 all the usual things going wrong. So it's unlikely, I anticipate, that
25 you will be hearing from Ms. Hanson before the Christmas break, unless
1 something goes very wrong.
2 JUDGE HALL: Please have the witness return to the stand.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, Mr. Gasi. I will remind you that you
5 are still under oath.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
7 WITNESS: ISAK GASI [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]
10 Q. Morning, Mr. Gasi.
11 A. [In English] Good morning.
12 Q. I'd like to start off by showing you a document.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown 65 ter 320, please.
14 Q. Mr. Gasi, this is a document that was shown to you, I believe in
15 the Krajisnik case. It is a summary by the War Presidency of the
16 municipality of Brcko. It deals with the background of the conflict,
17 the Assembly session we talked about yesterday, the blowing of the
18 bridge, et cetera. Now, you hadn't seen this document at the time; is
19 that correct? When I say "at the time" I mean in 1992.
20 A. [Interpretation] I didn't.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I ask the usher to go to the last numbered
22 page and show the witness the signature block on this document. The page
23 previous to that. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise that signature?
25 A. Yes, I do. It's the signature of Djordje Ristanic.
1 Q. Can you remind the Trial Chamber who Djordje Ristanic was in
3 A. He was the president of the War Presidency of the municipality of
4 Brcko, and I know him personally.
5 Q. And are you able to tell us whether the signature is in Cyrillic
6 or in Latin letters?
7 A. In Cyrillic letters.
8 Q. And how do you know Mr. Ristanic?
9 A. We went to primary school together at Brcko from the 1st to the
10 8th form. And when I went to the secondary electrician school, he went
11 to another vocational school. So I know him well and we grew up
13 Q. I'd like to take you to page 3 in the B/C/S, and in English it is
14 page 2, middle of the page. Now, on this page, Witness, there's a
15 reference to members of the "Zelene Beretke," the Green Berets. Are you
16 able to locate that on that page? Page 3, I believe it's the third
17 paragraph in Cyrillic.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can scroll up just a little bit. I
19 apologise, can we scroll up a little bit more? Scroll up. This is
20 page 2. Page 3, please, on the document. I apologise. Thank you.
21 Q. Do you see the third paragraph?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. This paragraph starts with:
24 "Members of the Green Berets placing barricades in areas
25 bordering Serbian parts of the city, cutting the main roads towards
1 Loncari, Bosanski Samac and Modrica."
2 Now in 1992 did you have a chance to drive around the town of
3 Brcko during the months of April and May?
4 A. Yes, I did. I was -- I had a chance to move about almost in the
5 entire territory of the municipality.
6 Q. And what can you tell us about this paragraph talking about
7 barricades by the Green Berets?
8 A. I personally didn't see barricades put up by the Green Berets at
9 that time at Brcko. That goes for all of April and the part of May when
10 I was in -- either in my apartment or later at the Elektrodistribucija
11 centre at Brcko, I never saw them.
12 Q. Just so the Trial Chamber understands, when you were working for
13 Elektro Brcko in the month of May, can you explain your travels during
14 that month?
15 A. On one occasion, the furthest I went was to the vicinity of the
16 place mentioned here in this report, it's on the main road from the Brcko
17 hospital toward Mujkici and Gluhakovac. These are the local communities.
18 They aren't mentioned here. But it's the road that goes in that
19 direction. It was on the 11th or the 12th of May, possibly the 13th of
20 May. But I didn't see any barricades. There were damaged houses in that
21 part of town and broken glass and damaged vehicles along that main road,
22 but barricades, no, I didn't see any.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we move to -- in the B/C/S page number 4.
24 And it's 4 on the top of the page. And in English page 3, paragraph 3.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, while we wait for this to come
1 up, could we just ascertain from the witness whether he saw -- whether
2 his testimony is that he didn't see any barricades at all, because I
3 think your question was whether he saw any barricades set up by the
4 Green Berets. The question could be, well, did he see other barricades
5 such as ones set up by the Crisis Staff of the Serbs, or any other
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Witness, you heard the question by Judge Harhoff. Do you
9 remember seeing any other barricades in and around the town of Brcko
10 A. Before the war started in Brcko, throughout the month of April,
11 they put up the so-called check-points, security points manned by the
12 civilian police and the military police from the Brcko garrison. That
13 was before the war, throughout the month of April almost. And during the
14 war - when I say "war," I mean from the 1st of May up to the 13th of
15 May - as I was moving through town, there were still check-points but the
16 composition of people at those check-points was not mixed. There were
17 people in camouflage uniforms from the Brcko garrison and members of the
18 Territorial Defence, I suppose they were Serbs.
19 And there were some other men from the police station in Brcko.
20 They were present all over the town. Wherever you moved about there were
21 three or four or five people on every road who stopped you, asked you for
22 your ID, asked you where you were headed, who had approved your movement,
23 what was your reason for going to that particular part of town and so on
24 and so forth.
25 Q. At page 8, line 8, I believe it reads that those check-points
1 were not mixed.
2 Witness, can you clarify, you just told us that you saw
3 camouflage uniforms, TO members, police members. Did you mean to say
4 that the check-points were mixed or were not mixed? Perhaps it's a
5 lost-in-translation issue.
6 A. Before the war, in the month of April 1992, they were mixed with
7 the members of the civilian police, and when I say "mixed," I mean
8 national composition. If there were members from the Brcko SUP, then
9 that means that there were Croats, Serbs and Muslims, and they were
10 combined with the members of the military police from the garrison. In
11 the month of May, I did not see that kind of check-points in Brcko. They
12 were all members of one ethnic group and that's what I meant when I said
13 that they were no longer mixed.
14 Q. Mr. Gasi, can I take you now at page 4, the second paragraph from
15 the bottom, and in English it's page 3, the third paragraph.
16 Do you see discussions about:
17 "When the war begun and the public security station was taken
18 over, the same day the War Presidency appointed Dragan Veselic, chief of
19 the public security station ..."
20 Do you see that paragraph?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Did you know Dragan Veselic?
23 A. Yes, I know him.
24 Q. Since when do you know him?
25 A. I've known him since before the war in Brcko, a couple of years
1 before the war. I believe that we were engaged in some conversations
2 with other people who know him. I believe that we even had a cup of
3 coffee or two together in one of the cafe bars in Brcko.
4 Q. What was his occupation prior to the war?
5 A. He was mathematics and physics teacher at the Brcko grammar
6 school known as the Vaso Pelagic school.
7 Q. Do you know if he had any training, any police training prior to
8 the war?
9 A. I don't know. I don't think so. I would be surprised to know
10 that Veselic had any police training.
11 Q. And do you know whether around the elections in 1990 or after the
12 elections if he belonged to any of the political parties?
13 A. I believe so. I believe that he was an SDS member, the Serbian
14 Democratic Party in Brcko.
15 Q. If you look at that paragraph, it carries on and says that after
16 the appointment of Dragan Veselic:
17 "... began the staffing of the station with new people, including
18 Serbs who had been employed there before."
19 And it continues by:
20 "The problem was the same as the army. Most of them were not
21 trained to work as policemen, but there was no option."
22 Can you tell us anything about that?
23 A. I don't know what the reason was to replenish the police station
24 in Brcko. Already at that time the same men who had worked there before
25 the war, and I'm referring to the ethnic composition, they were again
1 brought back to continue working. Whether they stopped working before
2 the war or not, I don't know. I don't think that anything ever changed,
3 either before he was appointed the chief of the SUP or thereafter. As
4 far as I can remember and as far as I could observe around the town, I
5 don't know if anything was changed either before or in the course of the
7 Q. May I take you at the top of page number 5 in the B/C/S version.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, can the top of page 5 be displayed to the
9 witness, please. And in English that's still page 3, second and third
10 paragraph from the bottom. The page has a 5 on the top of the page.
11 Next one in B/C/S. Next one. Does it show page number 5 at the top of
12 the page. Can we scroll up? Okay, if we can scroll up to the top of the
13 page. Thank you very much.
14 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you see a section there that deals with the largest
15 part of the Serbian forces came from Semberija, Bijeljina, Ugljevik?
16 A. Yes, I can see that.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And for the English, if we can just scroll down
18 a little bit, please, for the English version.
19 Q. The paragraph continues and says that:
20 "They were mainly organised in two formations, the Serbian guard
21 under the command of Ljubisa Savic, aka Mauzer, and the radicals under
22 the command of Mirko Blagojevic."
23 Did you have a chance to meet Mr. Savic, aka Mauzer, in 1992 in
25 A. Yes, I did have an occasion.
1 Q. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber the occasion on which you
2 met Mr. Mauzer?
3 A. One day in the month of May while I was still working at
4 Elektrodistibucija, that gentleman came. In the company of two other
5 members of his unit, he came to the Elektrodistribucija. He had a chat
6 with our director. And he then he called all the staff who were at the
7 Elektrodistribucija at the time, and they lined up in files -- they lined
8 us up in files of two and then we heard a political speech delivered by
9 Mr. Mauzer. And that was my meeting with him.
10 Q. Did he address you?
11 A. He went from one man to the next as we were lined up as if we
12 were in the army. He asked everybody what our names were. Most of us,
13 maybe six or seven -- or rather, most of us were Muslims, six or seven
14 were Serbs, and there were two Croats. And as I said, he went from one
15 man to the next. He asked our names. He came up to me, asked me what my
16 name was. I said Isak and then he moved on. He did not ill treat me
17 either verbally or physically at the time.
18 Q. Did he say anything to your group? You've explained to us that
19 he had the Croats and the Muslims on one side?
20 A. Later on when he was done doing that, there was a colleague of
21 ours who was Serb and he was with us and he said we should be separated.
22 The Serbians to one side and the Muslims to the other side. The Serb
23 colleague stayed with us. He came up to that Serb colleague, asked him
24 what his name was. The colleague answered. And then he said, What are
25 you doing with the balijas here? And he answered, Well, they are my
1 colleagues, my work colleagues. Then he asked again, What was your name
2 again, to which he answered. And then he said, Well, your brother got
3 killed and the likes of those in Elektrodistribucija killed him. And the
4 guy said, No, they didn't, I'm staying with them. And that was the
5 discussion which resulted in the ill treatment of us non-Serbs.
6 And then, after that, he changed his discourse because he
7 remembered who the brother of that electrician was and then he came up to
8 the director and members of the Serb people and started talking to them,
9 we couldn't hear that conversation and he told the rest of us that we
10 could go, that we were no longer needed. And that's how the whole event
12 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry to interrupt you, my learned friend. It's
13 page 12, line 18, the sentence is starting:
14 "And that was the discussion which resulted in the ill treatment
15 of us non-Serbs."
16 I think we heard something else. Could you clarify that with the
17 witness, please.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Line 13, isn't it, the discussion with the ill
19 treatment, yes.
20 Q. Witness, I don't know if you see it on the screen, it says:
21 "... discussion which resulted in the ill treatment of us
23 Can you clarify that for us? Counsel seems to think something
24 else was said. Or is that what you said?
25 A. Verbal ill treatment, Mr. Pantelic, consisted in somebody walking
1 behind your back with a Scorpion gun and then shouts at you in loud
2 voice, What is your name? And then you say Ibro, Sulja or Husa. Now
3 whether you would call that verbal ill treatment or physical ill
4 treatment, I don't know. In any case, that's how things transpired.
5 Dusko Tuzlancic, who followed him at the time, had a shot-gun and he
6 turned the barrel towards the group where I was standing and he started
7 playing with the bullet. He -- that was the kind of ill treatment we
8 suffered. But I never said that anybody was hit with a rifle-butt, a
9 Mauzer rifle-butt, or that Dusko Tuzlancic did that. No, they didn't.
10 But it was not a pleasant thing to hear somebody say to you "balija" or
11 things like that. And the ill treatment that I mentioned was that sense.
12 I really did not feel comfortable, I must say, at that time.
13 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you look at the next paragraph which starts with:
14 "The first to arrive in Brcko was the group of instructors of
15 Captain Dragan."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. In the middle of the paragraph there's a sentence that reads:
19 "When the war started and during the combat activities, a number
20 of members of this unit joined the police intervention platoon, but the
21 special unit grew to about 70 people."
22 What do you know about the police intervention platoon?
23 A. I know that a neighbour of mine, in the month of April, was a
24 member of that Special Police. His name was Ranko Cesic and he lived in
25 the same building as I did. Miso Cajevic was also a member of that unit.
1 I know that two brothers from the same building where I lived also
2 belonged to the same unit. One of the brothers, a neighbour of mine, his
3 name is Predrag, I believe, personally told me that he had participated
4 in the liberation of Bosanski Samac. Ranko Cesic and Miso Cajevic, whom
5 I both saw in Luka wearing police uniforms, light blue uniforms, they
6 were later on transferred from that unit.
7 Q. Now, this paragraph says that a number of members of these
8 paramilitary units joined the intervention -- the police intervention
9 platoon. What can you say to us about the relationship between the
10 police and these paramilitary groups in Brcko in the month of April and
11 May 1992?
12 A. In the town itself, in the course of the month of April, before
13 the bridge on the Sava
14 town centre, a lot of people did walk around during the month of April.
15 You could see members of those units. They often came to the Brcko SUP.
16 They parked their vehicles in front of the Brcko police station. And the
17 purpose of all that was the establishment of joint patrols and joint
18 mixed check-points at the exits from the town of Brcko in both
19 directions. This is what I saw and noticed in Brcko at the time.
20 Q. I'd like to show you one last extract from this document at
21 page 8 in the B/C/S version.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The top paragraph. When I say page 8, it's
23 again the page number 8 on the document. And in English it's page 5, the
24 fourth, fifth, and sixth paragraph.
25 Q. Are you able to see the document, Mr. Gasi?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And can you see it starting with:
3 "The result of looting is that Brcko is now a devastated town."
4 Is that the first sentence you see on that paragraph?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, the paragraph deals with stealing and seizing cars, looting
7 by various units, and the last sentence of that paragraph says:
8 "Locals joined those teams and the police were unable to prevents
9 this, and some of them probably joined in."
10 Can you tell us anything about the looting in the town of Brcko
11 A. On one occasion between the 1st of May and the 10th of May, while
12 I was in my apartment, the street where I lived was next to the garrison.
13 A vehicle came by with loud-speakers inviting people who felt threatened
14 by combat activities to come out of their apartments because they would
15 be transported to the garrison of the JNA in Brcko. And people did come
16 out, and I was observing that from the window of my apartment.
17 And my -- a neighbour of mine told me, Don't move anywhere from
18 your apartment. Then military truck came, they picked up all the people
19 from private houses and they took them away. I suppose they took them to
20 the garrison. An hour later, a few more trucks came and started taking
21 things from those houses. A few days later, those people who had been
22 taken to the garrison came back. They were returned to their homes.
23 This is what I could observe at the time.
24 Q. The people that were taken out, can you tell us, if you know,
25 what was their ethnic background?
1 A. Those people residing in residential houses across the road from
2 my building were Muslims. The name of that street was Blagoje Simikic
3 Street before the war. I don't know what it's called now. The names
4 change all the time.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask for that document to be
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness did not recognise the
8 document. He is not the author of the document. He doesn't know
9 anything about the document. He never saw it. The only thing that he
10 recognised on the document is the signature of the document's author, and
11 that's all. The Prosecutor used the opportunity to talk to him about the
12 events, but we don't think that this document can be admitted through the
13 witness. There were -- there will be other people from the police, from
14 the War Presidency, who will be more competent and better suited to talk
15 about that document. We will perhaps even have the author of the
16 document himself. Thank you.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I just add something. We don't know at this
18 stage if the author will be called. We are not calling him. May I just
19 point out to the Judges that this document in terms of relevance, I think
20 the witness has covered the relevance. In terms of reliability, he has
21 authenticated the signature of the author. Although he hasn't seen the
22 document at that time, he is familiar with the underlying facts. At this
23 stage I would say it's a matter for the Judges discretion under
24 Rule 89(C) which he covered extensively.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic's objection is noted, but in the
2 Chamber's view, the document is admissible and it may be admitted and
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P129, Your Honours.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
6 Q. Mr. Gasi, you mentioned in your testimony in the Krajisnik case,
7 and this is at page 422 of the Krajisnik transcript, that you witnessed
8 killings on the 6th or the 7th of May at the marketplace. Do you recall
10 A. Yes, I do indeed. It was not at the marketplace itself. It was
11 on one of the streets leading to the marketplace.
12 Q. And you mentioned, at page 424 of the Krajisnik transcript,
13 seeing a policeman wearing a blue uniform shooting at three civilians in
14 their heads. Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes, I recall that.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown 65 ter 2163. And may I
17 just note for Your Honours that this is one of the three documents that
18 were in the 92 ter package for this witness.
19 Q. Do you see the image on your screen, Mr. Gasi?
20 A. Yes, yes, I do.
21 Q. Do you recognise the area?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And what -- which part of town is this?
24 A. This is the very centre of the town.
25 Q. Is this where you were on the 6th or 7th of May when you
1 witnessed the shootings?
2 A. Yes, I was there.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we have the assistance of the usher so that
4 the witness can mark this image.
5 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you indicate to the Court with the pen in which
6 building you were when you witnessed the shootings? Can you mark that
7 with a 1?
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. I know it's not very easy to draw on that board. Yes. And can
10 you indicate to us where you saw the policeman shooting at the three
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And can you mark that with a 2.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Can you tell us approximately what is the distance between the
16 building and the area where you saw the shootings?
17 A. Maybe 30 to 40 metres.
18 Q. From that distance, were you capable of identifying the
20 A. No. He had his back turned to me, and later on they moved to a
21 different street around the corner and I could no longer see anything.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May this photo be seized and admitted.
23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P130, Your Honours.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And may the witness be shown the next
1 photograph, 65 ter 2167.
2 Q. Do you see the photo, Mr. Gasi?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you tell us what is this image?
5 A. Now we can see the street where the building is on the left-hand
6 side with the damaged facade. That's where all that happened. Here, I
8 Q. If you could mark the area where you saw the three civilians
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And can you just mark that with a 1.
12 A. [Marks]
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And may that be captured and admitted, please.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P131, Your Honours.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown the next photograph,
17 which is 65 ter 2164.
18 Q. Do you see the photo, Mr. Gasi?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Is this the same street that we just saw earlier?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. The policeman you saw on that day, was he wearing a similar
23 uniform as the man we see on the right with the blue shirt?
24 A. Yes, it's the same a uniform. The same kind of uniform.
25 Q. This was not the man that you saw, however, just to be clear?
1 A. I don't believe that's the very man, but I do remember that he
2 had a bandaged arm -- or rather, I would have remembered if he had a
3 bandaged arm such as this one in the picture has.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May this document be admitted.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown the next photograph --
8 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. As Exhibit P132, Your Honours.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown 65 ter 2165.
10 Q. Witness, is this the same street that we were discussing?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And again, this is the same uniform that the policeman you saw
13 was wearing on the 7th of May?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: There's actually a third photograph in this
16 series, perhaps we can put them in one bundle, put tab 1, tab 2, tab 3.
17 If we can show the next photograph which is 65 ter 2166.
18 Q. Once again, this is the same street, Mr. Gasi?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Now, while you were in Brcko during the month of May, this
21 uniform, was it a uniform you regularly saw?
22 A. That's a pre-war police uniform like those --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The police wore such
24 uniforms before the war and I believe during the war too.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
1 Q. And these three photos that we just showed you, would you happen
2 to know who took those photographs?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you tell us who that person was?
5 A. It was Bojan Stojanovic, a reporter, photo reporter from
7 Q. And how do you know that he took those very photographs?
8 A. In July 1992, when I was in Belgrade
9 that friend of mine and he came with a folder full of photographs that he
10 had taken during the war at Brcko.
11 Q. And he showed you those photos?
12 A. Yes, he did. And others too.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May that last photograph be admitted.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes. These photographs will be admitted and marked
15 sequentially, not as a package, for certain administrative reasons.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's perfectly fine.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P133 and Exhibit P134, Your Honours.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
19 Q. Mr. Gasi, you told the Court in the Krajisnik case that during
20 the month of May you were asked to work for Elektro Brcko; is that
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. And that you had to stay at the Elektro Brcko building, eat and
24 sleep there, 24 hours?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. On one occasion you told the Court, and this was at page 435 and
2 436 of the Krajisnik transcript, that you had to work on a transformer
4 A. To be precise, we are speaking about high-voltage electricity
6 Q. And is it correct that you had to climb up this pole?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. We did climb up.
8 Q. Approximately how high was this pole?
9 A. Some 20 metres.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I ask the Court Officer to display on the
11 screen 65 ter 2170.
12 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise this photo?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And can you tell us what this photo is?
15 A. I know exactly where this place is. Very close to this spot we
16 worked on those high-voltage poles.
17 Q. And from the high-voltage pole you had climbed, were you able to
18 see this grave?
19 A. Not this one. I saw another.
20 Q. And this grave itself, where was it in relation to the pole that
21 you had to climb up?
22 A. Roughly speaking, it was 150 to 200 metres away from the pole
23 where I was. I mean, this very grave we are looking at now.
24 Q. And the grave that you were able to see from the pole, how does
25 it compare to this image?
1 A. This one would be behind my back if I were on the pole now. And
2 the other I mentioned would be in front of me. So I would be facing the
3 other and this one would be behind my back. Unless I lost my sense of
4 orientation due to the lapse of time. Yes, I do think that this one
5 would be behind my back and the -- I would be facing the other.
6 Q. On the top right-hand corner of the photo, there is part of a
7 truck. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And do you recognise this truck?
10 A. Yes, I can recognise it. It used to drive down the main road
11 that passed by the Elektrodistribucija where we were.
12 Q. It is correct in the Krajisnik case that you stated that you had
13 seen this truck go back and forth while you were working at Elektro
15 A. Yes, that is correct. It would probably pass in one direction in
16 the morning and go back later, but there were days when it passed to and
17 fro twice.
18 Q. And on some occasions, did you recognise the driver?
19 A. Yes, I believe so. I think that I saw a man whom I knew before
20 the war twice. He worked at the police station at Brcko before the war.
21 Q. And can you indicate to the Court what his name is?
22 A. Mika Marinkovic.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could this photo be admitted.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P135, Your Honours.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
3 Q. Mr. Gasi, you mentioned to us, in the Krajisnik case again at
4 page 440, that you worked at Elektro Brcko between the 10th and the
5 27th of May, 1992, and you also stated that you were arrested on the
6 27th of May at your place of work. Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Can you tell the Court who arrested you on that day?
9 A. Two police officers. One was a professional police officer. He
10 had been with the police before the war at Brcko. And the other was a
11 reserve officer before the war, probably during the war became an active
12 serviceman with the police.
13 Q. And what were their names?
14 A. The professional was Dragan Pantelic, and the other was
15 Stevo Knezevic.
16 Q. When you were arrested, were you given any reasons for your
18 A. No, they stated no reasons to me, and when they arrived at the
19 entrance gate, where an office is, where the electrician on duty was, and
20 the director of the company, Miodrag Ristic, was there too. They
21 approached them first and asked if I was here, and they confirmed. And I
22 was in the warehouse some maybe 20 metres away from that office, and I
23 went there, and the director said to me, Well, the police is here, they
24 have come for you.
25 And before they put me in that vehicle, he asked -- the director
1 asked them, where are you taking him and why? And I think it was Stevo,
2 and possibly Dragan, who said if someone comes asking for them -- for
3 him, just tell them that the Serbian police has taken him away. And that
4 was all. They put me in the vehicle and took me to the police station at
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May the witness be shown 65 ter 2161.
7 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you see the photo on your screen?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Do you recognise this building and can you tell us what is this
11 A. It's the Brcko police station.
12 Q. And this is where Mr. Pantelic and Mr. Knezevic took you on the
13 27th of May?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Were you brought inside the police station?
16 A. Yes. As you see, this is the main entrance, and we entered
17 there, and to the right, there is a reception desk. They took me into a
18 room. They called it Room 13. Actually, they bounced me into it, pushed
19 me into it. It's on the right-hand side viewed from here.
20 Q. And when you entered the police station and you saw the reception
21 area, did you see any policemen?
22 A. Yes. There may have been six or seven police officers in regular
23 police uniforms in that reception office, and in that wider part of the
24 entrance I saw also some people in civilian clothes and members of the
25 regular police.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I offer this document.
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P136, Your Honours.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if the witness can be shown the next
5 document, 65 ter 2162.
6 Q. Do you see the image on the screen?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. What can we see on this image?
9 A. That's a photograph of that room, number 13 they called it, where
10 I was.
11 Q. And is this how it looked in 1992?
12 A. I believe so, yes. Yes.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I offer this image, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P137, Your Honours.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
17 Q. How long were you held in this room, Mr. Gasi?
18 A. Not longer than -- or actually less than an hour.
19 Q. And is it correct to say that after an hour, you were taken to
20 another detention centre?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And is it correct to say that this was the Luka camp?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the Krajisnik case you deal with your detention at the Luka
25 camp as of page 443.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if we may show the witness the next
2 photograph, which is 2156. 65 ter 2156.
3 Q. Do you recognise this image?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Before I get into the Luka camp, can you quickly tell us, if you
6 know, what is the distance between the police station and the Luka camp,
7 approximately, if you know?
8 A. 300 to 400 metres.
9 Q. When you arrived at the Luka camp, you told us in the Krajisnik
10 case, and that's at page 445, that a man named Pudic hit you. Can you
11 describe this event, this incident?
12 A. He was waiting for me in front of the first office, here where
13 the hangars begin. He was there already and when I got out of the
14 vehicle, he immediately started shouting and asking about Muslim
15 barricades. He mentioned some family names such as Islamovic and
16 Jasikovic and I had never heard of these people before and I replied,
17 What you are you talking about, man? And then he took his pistol and
18 started pushing me and hit me behind the neck and pushed me into a
19 hallway where that office was.
20 Q. With the assistance of the usher, if it's possible to mark this
21 image, if you can show us where Mr. Pudic was when you entered Luka camp.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. If you can mark that with a number 1.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And secondly, if you can indicate to us which office he pushed
1 you in?
2 A. It was right here at the same spot, in that building.
3 Q. Can you tell us what was the first name of Mr. Pudic?
4 A. I think it was Branko.
5 Q. Did you know Mr. Pudic before the war?
6 A. I didn't know him personally. I only knew him by sight, and I
7 know he was a police officer at Brcko. He also lived in the same part of
8 town as my parents-in-law, and he used to -- and I used to see him
9 around. I know that he was a police officer, and that's all.
10 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing on that day?
11 A. A regular police uniform, as any normal or regular police
13 Q. How long were you in that office with Mr. Pudic?
14 A. From the moment I entered, the entire conversation lasted about
15 30 or 40 minutes, and that's all.
16 Q. And what happened after these 30 or 40 minutes?
17 A. When I entered the office, there were another four men. On the
18 right there was one with a large beard. He was wearing a cockade, and
19 one was wearing a JNA uniform, and one was wearing a fire -- or carrying
20 a fire hose. One of them was wearing a camouflage uniform, and in the
21 centre of that office there was a table at which two people were sitting
22 facing each other. I knew one of them. And the other I had never seen.
23 The one to the right of that table was wearing an old reserve
24 uniform of the JNA with the rank of a 2nd lieutenant. And when they
25 pushed me inside, I said good afternoon. And the bearded guy jumped up
1 and said, What is this, good afternoon? Don't you know how the Serbian
2 brethren greet each other? And I said [B/C/S spoken] and he replied, You
3 see, he knows. And they were saying, Where was this one on Kosovo
4 engaged in counter-revolution. And in that office there was another
5 friend of mine, a Serb from Brcko who was an active captain at the JNA
6 who said, Come off it, stop it already. I know the man. He is an active
7 sportsman, and started speaking about my sporting achievements.
8 And then the situation changed somewhat, and the one -- the 2nd
9 lieutenant who was sitting said to Pudic, Pudic, take him away to the
10 hanger and then we'll see what we do with him.
11 Q. Where were you taken next, were you taken to the hangar?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Can you mark on this image where this was?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And mark that with a number 2, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. And this is where you were detained on that day?
18 A. Pudic took me in and on the right from the place where we entered
19 the hangar, there was a chair. The entire hangar was empty. He said,
20 You see that chair, sit on it and don't budge, and don't look around
21 either, and I'll be back and then we'll see what will happen. And then
22 after some 20 minutes, Pudic came back and he said to me, Now go to the
23 other part of the hangar which is separated from this number 2, or
24 rather, connected with a large gate. And I was looking to the left and
25 to the right. There were people lying there on the concrete floor. And
1 he said to me, Find yourself a place. And that's how I entered.
2 Q. You told us in the Krajisnik case at page 460 that that day --
3 JUDGE HALL: Counsel, at what point would it be convenient to
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
6 JUDGE HALL: At what point would it be --
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes --
8 JUDGE HALL: Are you -- I thought you were finished with this
9 photograph and I was going to invite you to take the break at that point,
10 but you seem to be going on.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I agree. We could actually tender this
12 photograph and I can continue after the break with the next question.
13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P138, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HALL: 20 minutes.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
19 JUDGE HALL: While the witness is coming in, there's just one
20 small procedural matter. We have been alerted that the record is
21 somewhat unclear as to where we stand in terms of what the Chamber has
22 decided with respect to the witness Hanson. As we would have indicated,
23 the written decision will be, we trust, available tomorrow. And then
24 things will follow in their ordinary sequence. So whereas it appears
25 that implicitly we have acceded to the application by the Defence for a
1 stay of her testifying, as I said, after tomorrow's ruling, then we would
2 hear from the parties and things would follow their natural course. But
3 it is obvious from what will have passed before that she is not coming
4 this week.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
7 Q. Mr. Gasi, before the break we were talking about the time when
8 you were brought to the Luka camp and you indicated to us that you were
9 hit by Mr. Branko Pudic. Did there come a time later on in that day
10 where you were dealing a man named Ivan?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And at page 468 in the Krajisnik case, you indicated to us that
13 he was wearing the insignia of Arkan's men?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you briefly describe that incident for the Trial Chamber?
16 A. Ivan came to the hangar accompanied by two other men and then he
17 stood in front of them in the middle of the hangar. And he asked aloud,
18 Where is that Siptar that came today? I didn't respond immediately.
19 Across the hangar from me there were two men of Albanian origin, just
20 like me. Their parents hailed from Kosova, just like mine. That's why I
21 didn't respond immediately.
22 Let me -- and then he says, Let me repeat, where is that Siptar,
23 the athlete that came today? And then I stood up, and then he says, Come
24 closer to me. And I came closer, maybe 2 or 3 metres away from me. And
25 he then he said even closer. And then he asked me, What is your
1 nationality? And I answered I'm a Yugoslav. And then at that moment he
2 came up to me, he was holding his right arm behind his back, and then he
3 said, Where is that Yugoslavia
4 interpreted], he was aiming at my head but he missed and he hit me here
5 and then he hit me in the shoulder. I fell on the ground and then he
6 started kicking me. One of the men who were with him grabbed me by the
7 jumper and lifted me. One of them took the pistol out of the bolster,
8 put it in my mouth, he wanted to fire a bullet but there was no bullet in
9 the pistol. And then he said, This time you are lucky, but the next time
10 I'm going to have a bullet for you.
11 The man who was holding me let me go. I fell down on the ground
12 and I remained lying there for awhile. That was that.
13 Q. What was the instrument that he used to hit you?
14 A. I believe that he hit me with a metal implement for screwing and
15 unscrewing firemen's hoses. When there is a fire, that's what the
16 firemen will use to secure the hoses.
17 Q. And after this incident, Mr. Gasi, were you beaten again during
18 your time at the Luka camp, and you told us you were there between the
19 27th of May and the 7th of June, so during that time-period?
20 A. They didn't beat me but Goran once took me out -- actually, it
21 was Kosta who wanted to see me in his office. Then they tied me to a
22 chair and Goran started showing off with his knife, which he threw at me,
23 and he threw the knife next to me. And he said, I'm not going to use the
24 pistol, I'm going to use the knife. I'm going to cut off your hands and
25 feet first. Then Goran said, We are not going to do anything to him
1 tonight. Then they took me out.
2 Q. You mentioned two names, you mentioned Kosta first of all. Can
3 you tell the Court who is Kosta, and what is his full name, if you know?
4 A. It was a local Serb from Brcko. Before the war, I believe he was
5 a decorator. And during the war he wore a police uniform. And when I
6 was taken to Luka, I saw him on the following day, immediately the day
7 after. He introduced himself as somebody who was the deputy commander of
8 the Luka camp, or the investigating prison as he called him. He was
9 wearing a police uniform all the time. His name is Konstantin Simeunovic
10 and in Brcko we refer to him as Kole, that was his nickname.
11 Q. And the other person you mentioned was Goran. Can you tell us
12 who Goran is and his full name, please?
13 A. Goran Jelisic. He also had a nickname. Adolf, that's what he
14 used to call himself when he came to the hangar. He came twice before
15 the incident involving me, and every time he wore a camouflage uniform.
16 And on that a particular evening, I believe that he was wearing a blue
17 shirt. I don't know whether it was a short-sleeved or a long-sleeved
18 police uniform, and I saw that he had one star as -- of the kind that the
19 police inspector would have. That's all I can remember at the moment.
20 Q. Mr. Gasi, you told us by Goran Jelisic --
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And just for Your Honours' information,
22 Goran Jelisic was accused and sentenced by this Tribunal several years
24 Q. What did Jelisic do exactly with the knife? If you could just
25 clarify that area.
1 A. Well, nothing. But Kosta brought me in. He asked him, Is that
2 the guy who is playing smart, because Kosta asked me about the names of
3 some Muslim extremists. Before that I had a stomach-ache and I had
4 diarrhoea at the time, he said, Isak, I'm going to give you a lot of
5 tablets but if you give me a lot of names of Muslim extremists. And then
6 I said, I'm going to give you ten names. And he says, how come? And
7 then I said, Just bring me a piece of paper and I will give you the
8 names. And then I gave him the names of all the members of the SDA board
9 in Brcko, but all those people had fled Brcko before the war. And then
10 he gave me the tablets.
11 A couple of days after that he came at dusk and he says, Okay,
12 come with me, Isak. And then Goran says, Is that the guy who is playing
13 smart? And he says yes. And then he says, Okay, tie him to the chair.
14 Kosta then handcuffed me and tied me to the chair. And then he said, I'm
15 not going to use the gun, I'm going to use the knife. I'm going to cut
16 off your -- both hands and feet. I will leave you like that and then
17 I'll slaughter you. And then when Kosta tied me on the chair, then he
18 approached me from the left side and knifed me lightly on the left-hand
19 side two or three times. And after that he says, Okay, you can take him
20 out now, we'll finish him off later.
21 Q. When Kosta asked you for those names, was he alone or was there
22 other people during this exchange when he promised he would give you
24 A. There was another man. That happened once when they allowed me
25 to go out. Sometimes they would allow you to go out and go to the
1 toilet, and there was a bathroom in a different part of the building
2 where their offices were. Kosta encountered me there and he realised
3 even a few days before that I had problems with my stomach and that's how
4 the dialogue started.
5 I suppose that there were other people in the offices listening
6 in. I don't know.
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Gasi, we need you to slow down a bit, please.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: For the interpreters.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
11 Q. Mr. Gasi, did there come a time where you were interrogated at
12 the Luka camp?
13 A. On the following day, to be more precise.
14 Q. Can you tell the Court who interrogated you?
15 A. Petar Kaurinovic put questions to me in the presence of
16 Zoran Kontic and Pero Zaric. I know the three of them. Petar Kaurinovic
17 used to work in the Brcko police before the war. He was a crime
18 inspector. Zoran Kontic was a forensic technician who used to take
19 photos of incidents and traffic accidents. And Pero Zaric was an athlete
20 whom I had known before the war in Brcko, but he was not a policeman
21 there in Brcko at that time.
22 Q. And what was Petar Kaurinovic wearing on that day when he
23 interrogated you?
24 A. Civilian clothes. Pero Zaric and Zoran Kontic wore camouflage
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we display on the screen 65 ter 2138,
3 Q. Now, Mr. Gasi, I'm going to show you a list of names, and this is
4 a list of employees of the Brcko police station. It is dated the month
5 of September 1992.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And, Your Honours, this is the only SJB Brcko
7 document we actually have, the only list we do have here.
8 Q. You can see on the first page that this document is dated the
9 7th of October, 1992. And is it -- it is correct to say that prior to
10 coming here a few days ago you hadn't seen this document before?
11 A. No, you showed it to me in your office the first time ever.
12 Q. Can you look at the first name on that list.
13 A. Zarko Cosic. I know him. We went to school together. In
14 elementary school and then for a while the secondary school as well.
15 Q. Now, it indicates on this list that he is the chief. You
16 indicated at the beginning of your testimony that Dragan Veselic was the
17 chief at one point. Do you know anything about what happened to
18 Dragan Veselic?
19 A. Later, when I was released from Luka, between June and August, I
20 was in Belgrade
21 in Belgrade
22 gathered and then I heard that Veselic had been killed in a traffic
23 accident in Vojvodina, somewhere near Novi Sad. That's what I heard from
24 the Serbs from Brcko and from the Bosnian Muslims from Brcko as well.
25 Q. And the individual at number 7, can you read out his name?
1 A. Petar Pero Kaurinovic.
2 Q. And is this the Petar Kaurinovic who interrogated you at the Luka
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And on the rest of that first part of the page, do you recognise
6 any other names?
7 A. I know most of these people. For example, number 4, Petar
8 Gavrilovic, Dragica Tesic. Stojan Vasiljevic was my neighbour. Petar
9 Stevic, I also know him from before the war. I know Cvetko. I know
10 Ljubica Knezevic as well. Stevo Knezevic, who arrested him, is her
11 brother. I also know Milenko Simikic [phoen], many others. Sojka Pajic,
12 I also know her. She still works at the Brcko SUP in the office for the
13 issuance of identity cards. I also know Branko Kisic.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we flip to page 5, please. Scroll up a
15 little bit, please. Thank you.
16 Q. Do you see the name at number 217?
17 A. Yes, Branko Pudic.
18 Q. You mentioned that Branko Pudic is the policeman who you saw on
19 the first day who hit you on the back of the head; is that right?
20 A. I believe so, yes. Yes, that's him.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we scroll down a little bit, please. A
22 little bit more.
23 Q. Do you see the name at number 252?
24 A. Konstantin Simeunovic, aka Kole, yes.
25 Q. Is this the man who presented himself as the commander of the
1 Luka camp?
2 A. Yes, I believe so, yes.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we flip to the next page, page.
4 Q. Do you see number 297?
5 A. Yes, I do, Dragan Zivkovic, also known as Travolta. Also a
6 policeman before the war in Brcko, a professional policeman.
7 Q. Did you see him during the month of May 1992?
8 A. Yes, I did. On one occasion, before I was arrested, he came to
9 my office in Elektro Company Brcko, together with Miso Cajevic. They
10 both wore camouflage uniforms. They carried out interviews with every
11 single employee. Before I was even arrested by those men and taken away,
12 maybe two or three days before I was taken to Luka, that's when I met
13 Dragan Zivkovic and Miso Cajevic in our company, on the premises of
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we scroll down a little bit more on that
17 Q. And can you see the name at number 312?
18 A. Yes, Milomir Marinkovic. I believe that that's actually Mika. I
19 believe so.
20 Q. And just to refresh our memories, who was Mika Marinkovic?
21 A. Before the war, he was issuing driving licences at the Brcko SUP.
22 He was the secretary of the SUP. And during the war, I saw him in that
23 Bimeks car that was passing by the Elektrodistribucija building.
24 Q. And the Bimeks car, can you clarify the word "car" here. I'm
25 sorry, it translated at the Bimeks car?
1 A. Bimeks is actually a small lorry, and Bimeks was the company for
2 the processing of meat and meat products before the war. And they used
3 that small-tonne freezer lorry to transport their products, and it was
4 painted white. And I don't know what it was used for during the war. I
5 can only guess that it was used to transport dead bodies.
6 Q. And this is the truck that you saw passing while you were working
7 at the Elektro Brcko?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I realise that this is not a
10 document that the witness can authenticate. He has been able to identify
11 a number of policemen on this list. The document can be dealt with the
12 next witness as well, so at this stage I would ask for it to at least be
13 exhibited here, unless there's an objection from the Defence.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE HALL: Before we hear your objection, Mr. Cvijetic,
16 counsel, could you assist us with the purpose for which this is being
17 tendered? You will remember the -- this is a reminds -- a reminder of
18 the path we took with -- I think it was the last document yesterday
19 afternoon. The witness has spoken to such of it as a system, but again
20 it isn't a document that he -- which he is the author and what does it do
21 but add to the clutter.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At this stage, Your Honour, this is the type of
23 document we would really insist to admit in evidence. It demonstrates
24 the membership of certain individuals who were seen at the crime sites,
25 members of the police. This is a --
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but the witness has testified to the presence
2 and the actions of certain police officers whom he has identified. How
3 does this advance the witness's testimony in that regard?
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In the sense that he -- for example,
5 Mr. Kaurinovic, who is number 7, on that day was wearing civilian clothes
6 but know he was a member of the police. This document confirms it. I
7 will not insist for this document to be exhibited. We can MFI it and let
8 the next witness deal with it who was a member of the police. But this
9 document demonstrates the membership of the police of certain
10 perpetrators, and we believe that this goes to the linkage between the
11 crimes and the accused in this case.
12 JUDGE HALL: It confirms that these persons were police officers.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
15 JUDGE HALL: It confirms that these persons were police officers.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Exactly.
17 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Let me hear Mr. Cvijetic, please. I think he
18 had a -- Mr. Cvijetic was it. Yes.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I won't take up much of your time,
20 Your Honours. I believe that the Prosecutor himself mentioned reasons
21 for which this document cannot be admitted immediately. As for MFIing
22 this document, we don't object because after this witness we will have
23 another one who will be able to tell us more about the document, as well
24 as about the names of the MUP members. So the witness that we are -- we
25 have before us today is not the best suited to do that.
1 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So it makes life simple for everybody
2 including the Chamber if it's marked for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P139, marked for identification,
4 Your Honours.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P139, marked for identification,
7 Your Honours.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
9 Q. Mr. Gasi, I'm going to jump a little bit in time. On the
10 7th of June, this is the day that you were released, you told us in the
11 Krajisnik case, and this is at page 490 of the transcript, that a JNA
12 captain by the name of Rade Bosic came and you described your exchange
13 with him.
14 You told us that you were taken to Kosta's office to have this
15 discussion with Mr. Bosic. Can you tell us, did Mr. Kosta Simeunovic,
16 did he have a permanent office at the camp, was there an office where he
17 was regularly at?
18 A. Yes, he did. That building where they were, his office was
19 somewhere in the middle. As you are looking at the building from the
20 hangar, you will see that it has four entrances, and I believe that the
21 middle entrance was the one leading to Kosta's office. That's the office
22 that I went to when Rade came down there for the first time to inquire
23 about me. And that's where I was with Kosta as well as with
24 Goran Jelisic on that night. That was one and the same office.
25 Q. I will not ask you about the details of the exchange because you
1 deal with it in the transcripts in the Krajisnik case. However, when you
2 left the office, did you notice something on the door of that office?
3 A. Not only then, but also when I complained about the stomach pain,
4 as I was leaving his office, there was a piece of paper on which Kosta
5 wrote down and signed it in his own hand that nobody had a right to enter
6 the hangar without his presence, that nobody had the right to ill treat
7 and kill prisoners in the presence of other prisoners or without his
9 This is roughly what I could read on that piece of paper. There
10 was no stamp that I could see, but it was signed by
11 Konstantin Simeunovic, Kole, as the deputy commander of the investigating
12 camp Luka.
13 Q. And this was on the door of his office?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned to us Goran Jelisic earlier. Can you tell us
16 approximately how many times did you see him at the Luka camp?
17 A. Twice in the hangar and the third time in the office.
18 Q. And it is correct to say that you didn't see Goran Jelisic
19 killing anyone at the Luka camp; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct, he did not kill anybody with me being present or
21 seeing that.
22 Q. And at page 459 of your Krajisnik testimony, you do say that you
23 were told by other prisoners that they had seen Goran Jelisic kill
25 A. Yes, I heard from two men who had been my colleagues. One was
1 Smail Delic, and the other was Osman Stranjac. And his father also told
2 me about an incident where he lay people down in front of the office
3 building and shot in their heads. And during that incident, he killed
4 maybe three or four men. All the three of them told me the same story.
5 Osman Stranjac and Ahved Stranjac [phoen] themselves participated in the
6 loading of bodies at the beginning of May 1992. Some 80 men Osman
7 counted and they had to load them on to a military truck, and I don't
8 know where the bodies were taken. In any case, he said that he was
9 counting 80 dead bodies.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: I realise that you have called Mr. Gasi as a
13 92 ter witness, and you had indicated that you would spend one hour
14 leading him through his previous testimonies. You've already spent an
15 hour -- almost an hour and a half now, and it seems to me that what you
16 have done actually is to examine him in chief as if he were a viva voce
17 witness, which is kind of inappropriate when you have announced that he
18 is to be called as a 92 ter witness.
19 So I think in keeping in with your own identification of Mr. Gasi
20 as a 92 ter witness, you are required to round up your introduction of
21 this witness very quickly.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour. I will deal with two other
23 areas that were not covered in the Krajisnik case and we'll wrap up
24 within the next 10, 15 minutes.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do so very briefly and very shortly.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Please do so very shortly and very briefly, and
3 for the future, I think that we should stick to the main rule which has
4 been explained in the procedural guide-lines that for 92 ter witnesses,
5 20 to 30 minutes will be the normal length of time to be used for
6 introduction of the witness before we pass the floor on to the Defence
7 counsels for cross-examination.
8 So make up your mind as to how you wish to present the evidence.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, I will, Your Honours. Much obliged.
11 Q. Mr. Gasi, you were mentioning in your Krajisnik evidence that at
12 one point a man by the name of Vojkan Djurkovic visited the Luka camp.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes. Mr. Vojkan Djurkovic came to the hangar twice or thrice.
15 Q. You also said in the Krajisnik case that on a number of times he
16 visited, he addressed the prisoners.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would like the witness to be shown a video,
18 65 ter 2108. It is a BBC programme called "Cracks in the Armour" from
19 1994. If we can show the first extract of that video, please. 2108.
20 Yes, I need to say that this is in Sanction actually, the video.
21 There seems to be a technical problem, Your Honours. This is the
22 last part of my presentation.
23 JUDGE HALL: Could you move on to something else in the --
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In the meantime, yes.
25 Q. Mr. Gasi, one other area that you did testify about in the
1 Krajisnik case was the time you were taken to the police station to clean
2 out the SJB. Do you remember that?
3 A. Yes, I do. Perhaps it was early June. The 1st of June or the
4 30th of May. I cannot recall exactly. Some people arrived from the
5 police station asking for volunteers. They took some 15 people with
6 them --
7 Q. I don't want us to go into the details. I just want to confirm
8 that you did see this event at the police station where you were taken
9 and you witnessed the killing of two prisoners, and this was by a
10 policeman in a blue uniform; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I believe the video is available now.
13 Q. Can you see the video on the screen? The image?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can the first clip be played, please.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
18 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you recognise the man in this video, the man with
19 the sunglasses?
20 A. In May 1992 he looked somewhat differently. He used to wear a
21 uniform, a camouflage uniform with the insignia of a major. And instead
22 of boots, he had Adidas track shoes. But yes, this is Vojkan Djurkovic.
23 Q. This is the man that you describe as coming to the Luka camp; is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we show the next clip.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
4 Q. Now, you heard Mr. Djurkovic speak here. Is this the type of the
5 speeches he would make at the Luka camp?
6 A. When he came to the Luka camp, he usually went to the middle of
7 the hangar by himself. That was rather interesting to see. Then some of
8 the prisoners recognised him. He told them, Come closer so that we can
9 talk. And on one such occasion, I came close as well. We made a circle
10 around him, and then he held speeches.
11 There were two brothers from Brezovo Polje, whose names I cannot
12 recall, and he seemed to have addressed them directly, and he told them,
13 You remember when the Luka camp was opened and how things used to be
14 here. I was trying to save people and I did. This was madness here. So
15 you should tell about it. And then he would change his tone somewhat by
16 saying things would be normalised here, conditions improved, and all will
17 be well. I heard that some people consider me a war criminal.
18 Whenever he came there, and I saw him on two or three occasions,
19 he would hold -- give such speeches. Once he would leave, some half an
20 hour later or 40 minutes later, four, five or six men in camouflage
21 uniforms would burst in with shovels, starting to hit whoever they could
22 in the hangar. Once done, they would leave and then the same people
23 would come back bringing in coffee, as they say, to us, the Turks, the
24 balijas, to have some to drink.
25 Those same people who hit us with their feet and shovels, wanted
1 to drink coffee with the same people they had previously beaten, and
2 share their cigarettes with. That is what things were like in the Luka
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we show the third clip from this video.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
7 Q. Now, on this last clip he says that he should receive the Nobel
8 Peace Prize and that people are free to return. What can you tell us
9 about that?
10 A. This was typical of such a person. As I used to know him in
11 1992. Who can say such things when the war in Bosnia was such a horrific
12 event. I see it completely differently and I simply fail to understand
13 this. I don't know. Madness.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I will conclude my examination with this last
15 clip, Your Honours. Can we show from this video the last clip, yes,
16 fourth clip.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we freeze here for a second?
19 Q. Do you recognise this individual?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is this?
22 A. Mauzer.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we continue playing, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know who he is. Zarko Cosic. He
1 is a lot fatter here, that is why I could not recognise him.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can you continue playing, please.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
5 Q. Now, this is the new SJB chief in 1992, Zarko Cosic, who said
6 that the conditions in Brcko were so difficult that they had to throw the
7 Muslims out. Can you comment on this? Was the situation in Brcko so
9 A. Well, I don't know why they had to throw me out of Brcko. Why
10 was I taken away? Why was I held at the Luka camp? I did not present a
11 problem. There was no reason for me to drive me out or to drive my
12 father, brother, and sisters out. I don't know.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I ask for this video to be
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before I conclude, Your Honours, in relation --
18 THE REGISTRAR: Apologies. As Exhibit P139 [sic].
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In relation to the newspaper article that was
20 shown yesterday --
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Item 139 was the list of policemen that was
23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. This will be
24 Exhibit P140.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, just before I conclude, the
1 newspaper article that we displayed yesterday and that Your Honours
2 decided not to admit, I would ask -- it's 65 ter 267. Thank you. I do
3 understand that this witness could not tender this document. Could I ask
4 for it to be MFI'd for the time being with the possibility that somebody
5 else may talk about it and authenticate the document.
6 One clarification is I remember Your Honours saying yesterday
7 that we don't have the source or the author, and I do apologise, last
8 week we did realise that the translation we had and the original we had
9 didn't have the source, but in the meantime by the end of the week we
10 were able to locate the original. It was disclosed to the Defence and it
11 shows that it was the newspaper "Oslobodjenje". So for the time being,
12 if it could be marked and we'll see if another witness can talk about it.
13 JUDGE HALL: It's a matter on which we've ruled. We aren't going
14 to revisit that. If another witness is able to prove it, we'll see.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just for the record, I was thinking if ever it
16 is admitted, it would be good to know that this witness also talked about
17 it. It's just for matters of record for final briefs or any other
18 submissions in the future.
19 JUDGE HALL: I have no doubt the Prosecution in their closing
20 submissions, that they would not fail to remind the Chamber of that fact.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. No more questions for
22 this witness.
23 JUDGE HALL: Cross-examination.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gasi.
1 A. Good morning, Mr. Cvijetic.
2 Q. I'm co-counsel in the team of Mr. Stanisic. I'll have a few
3 questions of you. First, I'd like to deal with your membership in the
4 SDA party. You were a member of the party; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It says here between the 26th of May, 1990, until November 1992;
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Cvijetic should make pauses between
10 questions and answers. Thank you very much.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Excuse me. I apologise, can we have the page
12 reference number, please.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm asking the witness directly
14 about his membership in the party. In his earlier interviews he
15 mentioned that fact and I don't think that is in dispute.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise, because it says "it says here," I
17 thought you were referring to the Krajisnik testimony. If that is not
18 the case, that's perfectly fine.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, I will remind you -- I don't know if
20 you heard the interpreter's intervention, but I would remind you of the
21 need to slow down and allow time between the question and the answer.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Gasi, obviously this is not in dispute and there is no need
24 for me to jog your memory in terms of your previous testimonies.
25 A. Any way you wish.
1 Q. How did you see this party of yours, in one or two sentences?
2 A. At first I believed it was supposed to be the party of all those
3 people who were in favour of cohabitation in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. Let's try to define it then. The party that demanded that all
5 peoples enjoy the same rights; am I correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. This opinion of yours about the party platform, did it remain the
8 same or did you change it at some point?
9 A. It remained the same until I began attending Executive Board
10 sessions in which I saw some people approach matters in a rather
11 religious way, which I found a bit distasteful. I'm talking about the
12 people at the local level. I have been an atheist throughout my life.
13 I'm a former communist and this is what repelled me. It drove me away
14 from the party. Of course to repeat, this is at the local level.
15 Q. Concerning the party programme, it was supposed to be a party
16 that would seek equal rights for the people of all three ethnicities.
17 This included the right of every people to decide on their own fate,
18 let's put it that way?
19 A. I believe so.
20 Q. And say the Serb people could not dictate to the Muslims what
21 sort of a state they would live in, whether they would live in Yugoslavia
22 or in a separate sovereign state?
23 A. You are correct.
24 Q. Then you will agree that neither the Muslims nor the Croats could
25 impose the same on the Serbs?
1 A. I don't know what you mean by imposing, but if this is physical
2 duress that we are talking about, then I wouldn't agree with you.
3 Q. No, that's not what I meant. I meant by out-voting the other two
4 peoples --
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm being told that it's time for
6 the break, Your Honours? No? Oh, I need to go more slowly. I
7 misunderstood my colleague. Very well.
8 Q. So we agree, then. The Serbs could not force the Muslims or
9 Croats and the other way around, to force this important issue on other
10 peoples as to what kind of a state they would like to live in. Do you
11 agree with me?
12 A. I agree. Of course, no one can force anyone else to do something
13 they don't want to.
14 Q. Mr. Gasi, please wait before answering and I'm being criticised
15 as well. We speak the same language.
16 A. It's a bit difficult.
17 Q. Yes, we start to chat and then the interpreters are in trouble.
18 Let's try and interpret the decision of the Assembly of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina of the 15th and 16th of October, 1991, by virtue of
20 which it was decided on the sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina without the
21 approval and presence of Serb deputies, or of the SDS, so to say. I
22 won't ask you about the constitutionality of that decision because you
23 are not a constitutional expert, but such a decision, be it that included
24 the imposition I have mentioned or anything else, goes to the crux of the
1 A. Mr. Cvijetic, if you link the entire Serbian people to only one
2 party, the SDS, then you are greatly mistaken. I think many Serbs did
3 vote for them, but a great many of them were members of the SDP and other
4 parties, such as Ante Markovic's party, and Bogic Bogicevic himself was a
5 Serb who was a member of the Presidency of the SFRY at the time. If
6 there is one party, as you yourself said, I'm not a constitutional
7 expert, but if a party walks out of the parliament and still the
8 parliamentary majority makes a decision, then it's a legitimate majority,
9 a legitimate decision. Well, there may be various interpretations but
10 this is how I see it.
11 Q. This is what I'm discussing. It was not a legitimate majority
12 because there was no required majority under the constitution. Making
13 decisions that are of vital interest could not be even done by outvoting
14 or simple majority, but by consensus and mutual agreement alone. You
15 know that nowadays in the B&H parliament there is the House of the
16 Peoples in which decisions are made by consensus and all the three
17 peoples are on an equal footing.
18 Mr. Gasi, if you feel incompetent to deal with this matter, just
19 tell me and I'll move on.
20 A. Mr. Cvijetic, I have my opinion. You are probably more educated
21 in the sense of law than me, but I may have a differing opinion about the
22 legitimacy of the Serb deputies walking out and not participating in the
23 referendum on independence. As a person, I never wanted to impose my
24 opinion on anyone else or did I ever have anything against any single
25 Serb in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I still don't.
1 Q. Very well. I'll try to address you as a simple man. If three
2 peoples cannot reach a consensus as to what type of state they would live
3 in, what is an alternative to that?
4 A. As far as I'm concerned, and as our people would say, if a
5 marriage is broke, it's broke. Split it. What was Bosnia like before
6 the war? A journalist said that it resembled the patterns of a leopard
7 skin. There were so many different peoples living in different people
8 [as interpreted] and all of a sudden it was gone. It was gone from Brcko
10 Q. All right. If in that, as you called it, the divorce of three
11 peoples in a peaceful way has as its only alternative war, and I consider
12 them going their own ways bad too, isn't that the lesser evil than war?
13 A. I lived for 33 years in the former Yugoslavia, but I would have
14 prayed to God even though I was -- had no religious affiliation for that
15 country to be preserved.
16 Q. You were a sportsman. How far did you get in sports?
17 A. In 1990, I represented Yugoslavia at the world championship in
19 Q. But you are saying as far as you are concerned, you think that it
20 would have been a good thing for Yugoslavia
21 A. Yes, it would have been excellent.
22 Q. So what was bad about the efforts of the Serbian people to
23 preserve Yugoslavia
24 A. What happened in Brcko was bad and what happened to me personally
25 was bad.
1 Q. No, we'll get to that yet.
2 A. Can you repeat, please. I didn't get the essence of your
4 Q. All right. I'll simplify. I will not go back to your opinion on
6 Serbian people who, at their own referendum, stated that they wanted to
7 remain in Yugoslavia
8 within Yugoslavia
9 A. I can see nothing bad about the democratic vote of the people.
10 Q. Mr. Gasi, I agree with you when you said that the way -- I
11 believe it was Ristanic drew that map about the -- about the division of
12 Brcko wasn't good.
13 A. It wasn't only him. It was the entire SDS.
14 Q. Well, the way they went about it was inadequate clearly. It
15 won't do to start constructing Berlin walls. But we see that the
16 Dayton Accord actually resulted in -- had the same result, and there is
17 even an unofficial entity called the Herceg-Bosna where the Croats are
18 the majority; isn't that correct?
19 A. I know all that. I read the papers and I sometimes look at
20 websites on the internet. I can tell you the Dayton Accord, to my mind,
21 had as its purpose to stop the war and the killing and the destruction.
22 Q. All right. But that is what it achieved, peace was brought about
23 by dividing the peoples along ethnic lines mostly. I agree with you that
24 it shouldn't have been done in an absolute sense because
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina can never be divided that way.
1 A. But, Mr. Cvijetic, the way I was brought up it is clear to me
2 that people cannot be divided by any borders. It's the politicians who
3 divide them, the ideologists. If I start feeling threatened as a member
4 of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it isn't my personal
5 feeling; it's because I listen to my leaders. People listen to their
6 leaders, that's why.
7 Q. All right. Mr. Gasi, I won't venture into politics and probably
8 won't be allowed to go beyond what you have stated in the
9 examination-in-chief. But let's go back to the events in Brcko. After
10 the incidents in Bijeljina, did certain forces of the Muslim people of
11 the SDA party started assembling with the intention to go to Bijeljina?
12 A. I don't know anything about that, Mr. Cvijetic.
13 Q. Didn't you mention that Mr. Ramic intervened to that effect?
14 A. I never said that.
15 Q. Did you notice that a column of refugees from Bosanski Brod
16 passed through Brcko after the crime at Sijekovac where the Croatian
17 forces committed a crime on the Serb people. Did you witness that?
18 A. No, Mr. Cvijetic.
19 Q. We have mentioned the map drawn by Ristanic. I remember what you
20 marked on the map as his marking. What is the name of that part of
22 A. I was explaining that yesterday. These are the local communities
23 leaning on the southeastern part of the town of Brcko. From the Serbian
24 border, Stolina -- road to Bijeljina, Brcica and the town centre.
25 Q. Isn't the majority of that part of town called Srpska Varos?
1 A. Yes, there has always been an Orthodox church there. It's still
3 Q. Okay. So that line of his mostly includes that part of town?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Gasi, when you left Brcko and when you were able to go
6 abroad, you gave a statement to the Helsinki Committee? You remember
8 A. Yes, in 1993.
9 Q. It was in Denmark
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In that statement, you said, among other things, that the worst
12 crimes in Brcko were committed by paramilitary formations. Do you
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You furthermore said that the most significant paramilitary group
16 were the Arkan people and that they were led by someone from Bijeljina?
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I tried
19 to correct that statement of mine but I never got the chance to do so.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. All right. We'll go through that quickly. Then I suppose that
22 you don't know that Zdravko Ljubinkovic?
23 A. No, I don't have any connection with that man whatsoever.
24 Q. Then you allegedly said that both groups were united into the
25 Serbian guards, both the Mauzer's guard and the Arkan -- Arkan's group
1 led by Mirko Ilinkovic [as interpreted] were united?
2 A. I believe that they united later during the war.
3 Q. But did you know it at the time or did you say that?
4 A. I've just said, I did give statements to the Helsinki Committee,
5 but when I saw the document it was two or three months after -- or later.
6 It was in English. I was never able to correct my statement.
7 JUDGE HALL: I remind counsel and the witness again to slow down.
8 You are overlapping. And it's 12.05, so could we take the break now.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: Okay.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- Recess taken at 12.04 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Gasi, I believe that we broke off when we spoke about the map
17 drawn by Ristanic. You said in your earlier statement that you saw from
18 your house that 300 to 400 people were killed in the town centre and that
19 they were taken out in groups of 30 to 40, and that it took days to wash
20 away the blood. Do you remember that part? It was put to you in your
21 previous testimonies.
22 A. I remember that Defence counsel did quote that statement to me
23 that I gave to the Helsinki Committee and I said before that I never said
24 that. Who in his right mind could say that 300 people were killed in
25 half an hour.
1 Q. Then you are saying that that is false?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. A photograph was shown to you, I believe it was a photograph with
4 a Scorpion, and we are going to need it. In your statement you
5 identified that person as Jovan Pudic. That is what the statement reads.
6 Do you remember that?
7 A. There was a copy from an English newspaper, I believe it was the
8 Guardian. So the article was photocopied. And when we were discussing
9 that photograph with a gentleman from the Helsinki Committee, I said to
10 him that I was with the author of that photograph who had shown me other
11 photographs where that man Pudic could be seen. But it was not that
12 photograph. How that entered the report, I don't know because I didn't
13 say it that way.
14 Q. So you didn't identify that person as Jovan Pudic?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to -- I
17 would like the photograph under 65 ter something but I believe it was
18 2164, I would like that photograph to be put up on the screen again.
19 Q. That's the photograph. Can you see it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The person carrying a Scorpion with a silencer, do tell me, you
22 said that it was the policeman you had seen earlier, I believe that's
23 what you said, in this photograph?
24 A. Which policeman?
25 Q. The Prosecutor asked you whether that was a policeman and whether
1 you can compare him with the other whom you saw in the city?
2 A. But I replied that it was not the same man.
3 Q. I want to ask then whether that's a police officer?
4 A. Yes, he is wearing a police uniform.
5 Q. Do tell me what you see, which parts of the police uniform you
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Slow down. The interpreters can't follow you.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Gasi, do wait after my question. Do look at that person and
10 tell me what he is wearing, which parts of a police uniform, the ones
11 that were used before the war, and you and I remember very well. Wait a
12 minute. Now, tell us.
13 A. Well, the blue short-sleeved shirt and the boots and the trousers
14 he is wearing are police trousers. It's this dark shade of blue.
15 Q. As far as I remember, before the war, the trousers were light
16 coloured and they were wearing shoes rather than boots?
17 A. Oh, but the police officers did wear boots too, Mr. Cvijetic.
18 Q. Is anything missing on the shirt?
19 A. What do you mean? What could be missing? It's a police shirt,
20 short sleeved --
21 Q. Did they wear anything on their shoulders?
22 A. Yes, they did wear a rank insignia, but it can't be seen in this
24 Q. Well, it can't be seen because there aren't any. They would have
25 been on his shoulders.
1 A. Well, it depends on the way you look at it. I believe it's a
2 police shirt.
3 Q. Uniform hat --
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic and Mr. Gasi, you have been reminded on
5 several occasions today about the need to slow down so the interpreters
6 can interpret what you are saying. This continuing "chat," to use your
7 words, Mr. Cvijetic, may be useful to you but it isn't helpful to the
8 interpreters. At the end of the day it doesn't assist the record.
9 Please discipline yourselves.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we have reached a
11 stage when you could probably punish me and it may even be efficient. Of
12 course that's joke.
13 Q. Mr. Gasi, speaking about uniforms, you said today that
14 Ranko Cesic also wore police uniform and that Goran Jelisic did and also
15 the person you identified as Jovan Pudic, that he was a police officer.
16 You said that -- help me with the last name, please, and you say you know
17 him, Konstantin Simeunovic, also know as Kole. Is that his name?
18 A. Yes, Kosta Simeunovic, Konstantin.
19 Q. He also wore a police uniform?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. I'll have to return to the list of police officers, if you will
22 just let me find that Prosecution exhibit which was shown to the witness.
23 You recognised Branko Pudic on that list. The name was shown to you and
24 you recognised Branko Pudic. Just give me a minute to find the list.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It was shown as a 65 ter exhibit.
1 Let us just see the page number. Yes. Under 65 ter it was 2138, so let
2 us immediately go to page 5. Page 5 in B/C/S, please. That's number 5,
4 Q. Look at the part that is being shown to you, that is being blown
5 up for you. Under 212, Pero Pudic, am I right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Let's move on. Under 217, Branko Pudic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Under 222, Boro Pudic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your statement, Jovan Pudic?
12 A. What statement?
13 Q. The Helsinki
14 A. Let me tell you this, to this very day, okay, today I'm sure what
15 Pudic's name was, the one who hit me. Every time, including that
16 statement that I provided to the Helsinki Watch Committee, that was the
17 one and the same Pudic that I saw. And I don't know how the name Jovan
18 entered that report. I never said the whole name because I didn't know.
19 And I know Pudic because I've known him from before the war and that's
20 the Pudic that I have in mind, Branko Pudic.
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] On the same list can we go to
22 number 252, please. And let's find the person under that number. The
23 policeman under 252, please.
24 Q. Look at the list. It says Simonovic, Konstantin. Do you allow
25 for the possibility that that is not the person called
1 Konstantin Simeunovic?
2 A. It is my mistake. I believe very probably that his same is
3 Simeunovic. I apologise but I know Kosta really very well and that's
4 Kosta, Konstantin Simeunovic, that's the person.
5 Q. Again you say Simeunovic?
6 A. It's the way I'm saying. It could be Simonovic, of course.
7 Q. But you are correcting yourself when I show the name to you?
8 A. You are absolutely right but that's the same person. It's the
9 same Kosta, the same Kole that I know.
10 Q. I can't agree with you. He can't be the same. There's no other
11 way to identify him. Maybe a photo would help?
12 A. Well, if you do have a photo I'll be able to identify the man.
13 No problem.
14 Q. Very well. Mr. Gasi, I apologise, I just called you Mr. Pudic.
15 In your earlier testimonies you put a military uniform on Cesic. You put
16 a military uniform on Goran Jelisic as well. I have to face with you
17 your previous statements provided in the previous cases that you
18 testified in. The Krajisnik case, 4 February 2004. You were describing
19 the moment when he arrived in the hangar. I'm referring to
20 Goran Jelisic, of course. And you say this:
21 "He came to the hangar. He was wearing a camouflage uniform of
22 the JNA. I didn't see any markings or ranks. He did not wear a cap.
23 "I'm asking you again, what kind of camouflage uniform was he
24 wearing at the time?
25 "As far as I'm familiar with uniforms, I believe that it was a
1 camouflage JNA uniform?"
2 A. And this is what I still claim.
3 Q. Didn't you tell us that he arrived in a blue police shirt and
4 that he was wearing the markings with the one star showing that he was an
6 A. Yes, but that was on another occasion when Kosta took me to the
7 office and when we had a short discussion. That's when he was wearing a
8 blue police uniform with one star showing that he was a senior police
9 inspector. That's when he was wearing that uniform.
10 Q. You explained that that one star at that time as the rank of a
11 lieutenant -- sergeant on his military camouflage uniform?
12 A. I must have made a mistake. I can't remember. But I know that
13 Goran liked to change uniforms very often.
14 Q. What do you mean?
15 A. As far as I could hear from the Serbs in the hangar and the
16 guards, the more valuable a uniform was perceived the more prone he was
17 to wearing it.
18 Q. And on those uniforms that he wore, did he add ranks to the
20 A. Let me tell you, it is possible. Just like Major Duskanovic did.
21 I can't believe that that person could have ever reached the rank of a
22 major before the war.
23 Q. Could Goran Jelisic be a member of the police in the first place?
24 A. I believe so.
25 Q. Based on what?
1 A. Well, he wore the uniform when I saw him wearing that uniform.
2 Q. You've just told us that he was wearing both the police and the
3 military uniform at the same time. Could he be both a policeman and a
4 member of the military?
5 A. Mr. Cvijetic, I'm sure that you know it only too well who was
6 distributing uniforms at the time to the Serbian people in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and what the role of Jelisic was at that time when he
8 wore one kind of uniform and what was the role of Mr. Jelisic when he
9 wore the other kind of uniform, I really can't talk about that. But I
10 can easily assume that he was a member of the army for awhile and then a
11 member of the police, and I'm basing that assumption on the basis of the
13 Q. Only on the basis of the uniform?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is there a possibility that members of the paramilitary
16 formations also came by those uniforms and that they changed them at
17 their own will?
18 A. I'm sure that they did. I'm sure that you are right. I would
19 agree with you in that.
20 Q. Very well. Let me quote from your statement, or rather, your
21 testimony from another case, or rather, it was still the same case, the
22 Krajisnik case. Page 456 starting with line 4:
23 "Ranko Cesic would come wearing a JNA uniform." And so on and so
25 So there you have Ranko Cesic in a military uniform, and today
1 you told us he was wearing a police uniform?
2 A. Yes, I said that before and today.
3 Q. Why are you changing your testimony, Mr. Gasi?
4 A. I'm not changing my testimony, Mr. Cvijetic. When people ask me,
5 I tell them what I saw.
6 Q. Mr. Gasi, you testified in the Milosevic case; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Mr. Milosevic was charged with responsibility for the
9 participation of JNA units in the events in Brcko and you will remember
10 that at the time the Prosecutor and Milosevic himself asked you a lot
11 about the role of the JNA in Brcko?
12 A. You're absolutely right.
13 Q. It was interesting at the time to prove that members of the
14 paramilitary formations actually belonged to the JNA. And you, on
15 page 75, line 24 and 25 in that case, said that Ranko Cesic was a member
16 of the JNA. Who else could he have belonged to? He was wearing a
17 camouflage JNA uniform?
18 A. And what is in dispute here?
19 Q. And now you are telling us, or rather, you told us then, who else
20 could he belong to? Today, earlier today, you said that he wore a police
22 A. That's what the Prosecutor asked me, and I told him that I also
23 saw him wearing a police uniform.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise, Mr. Cvijetic, if it's possible to
25 give us the exact page number in the Milosevic case. Because you said
1 page 75, but we have the sequential number is actually in the 26.000's,
2 so if you could give us that page number. Thank you.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Milosevic, I have a print-out of
4 the transcript in English so we can actually check the page number that
5 I'm quoting. Page 75. Date, 21 October 2009. Well, no, no, that's when
6 this was printed. It's page 75, lines 24 and 25.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It appears that you have printed it off the
8 version that doesn't have a sequential number. Because the page number
9 where his testimony starts at is 26.430.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My apologies. You
11 are absolutely right. 26.449 is what has been printed. I apologise.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] You are right, I was looking at
14 the page markings. So yes, indeed, we are on that same page.
15 Q. Where you said, and there's no two ways about it that he was a
16 member of the JNA, not for a single second in any of the previous
17 testimonies did you say that he was wearing a police uniform. Please
18 hold on just for a moment. The Milosevic case, the Krajisnik case, the
19 Tadic case, three cases, and in all the three you said that Cesic wore a
20 military uniform, and the first time today you mentioned that he wear a
21 police uniform. And today, people on trial are heads of the police.
22 Doesn't this look suspicious to you, Mr. Gasi?
23 A. Listen, Mr. Cvijetic, you know very well who dressed people in
24 uniforms in the former Yugoslavia
25 time. I'm not putting any uniforms on anybody. I just said that he wore
1 two different kinds of uniforms. Who Ranko Cesic belonged to, I believe
2 and I know that before the war started in Brcko Mr. Cesic wore a
3 camouflage uniform around Brcko, and that he was a member of the special
4 units of the JNA. I don't know whether his role changed during the war.
5 In any case, he also appeared in the police uniform when he came to look.
6 That's all I know. I'm not putting anything on anybody, and I never said
7 that I put a JNA uniform on anybody. That was the uniform that he wore
8 and I assume that it was a JNA uniform. That's all I can tell you.
9 Q. Unfortunately, Mr. Gasi, I have to confront you with your own
10 testimonies. Krajisnik, 4 February 2004
11 soldier wearing a military uniform. No police uniform in sight.
12 Page lines 17 to 29. I have to tell you that I don't know what to choose
13 from which case, to be honest, but what I have to tell you is the fact
14 that we haven't been able to find anywhere that you say that those people
15 were wearing police uniforms. It was only today that you mentioned it
16 for the first time ever.
17 A. I've tried to answer. I've tried to tell you what I think and
18 what I know. And it's up to you. I did not have any intention to put
19 any uniforms on anybody in order to reflect the nature of any of the
20 cases. That's my opinion, and if I'm mistaken, I apologise if I put a
21 uniform on somebody that he never wore. But I'm sure that I didn't make
22 a mistake because I'm telling you what I saw.
23 Q. However, we still have the impression that you are adapting your
24 testimony to the accused.
25 A. Mr. Cvijetic --
1 Q. Please allow me to finish. If it was interesting to put military
2 uniforms on them in the Milosevic case, then you put military uniforms on
3 them. If the accused are people in charge of the police, then you put
4 police uniforms on them. That's the long and the short of it. Let me go
5 back to the case of Dusko Talic.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And I'm going to give you the
7 transcript page. The date is 15 May 1996. And the page number is 739,
8 lines 11 to 23.
9 Q. Here you say about Goran Jelisic that he put the star on the
10 military camouflage uniform and that he liked to be exclusively dressed,
11 that he liked to wear a special uniform and that the rank that he wore
12 was the rank of a corporal. Today you are saying that the star was the
13 star featuring on the uniform of a police inspector. Do you know that
14 that star does not exist in the police and that it doesn't stand for a
15 police inspector in the police?
16 A. Again I don't understand you. I'm not an expert. I'm just
17 telling you what I thought at the time. Before the war, police
18 inspectors had stars. If your information tells you differently, then I
19 don't know. I'm not an expert. I'm not a big expert. I can't tell you
20 what position people held.
21 Q. I'm going to try to assist you with that. In the police there
22 are functions. The function of a police inspector and so on and so
23 forth, there are no ranks at the moment. So how may we account for your
24 behaviour today?
25 A. There's nothing to explain. I'm telling you what I saw. I don't
1 see a reason for any doubts. What is disputable about uniforms? I'm not
2 here to put uniforms on people. I'm telling you what I saw and I'm
3 talking about the types of uniforms that I saw.
4 Q. The Krajisnik case, 4 February 2004
5 Ranko Cesic came in an olive-drab JNA uniform. That's what you said, and
6 I must admit, I don't know how many times do I have to show you all that,
7 I am not convinced in the authenticity of your words.
8 A. I'm very sorry that you did not get from me what you wanted. I'm
9 just telling you what I saw.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise, but I think the witness has
11 answered enough on this question and he's said repeatedly that Jelisic
12 and Cesic liked to change their uniforms. What else is counsel trying to
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And Mr. Cvijetic, Mr. Cvijetic, can I just ask
15 you just for clarification that the photos we saw, which were exhibited
16 as P133 and P134, I believe those photos were of Mr. Jelisic, were they
17 not, and there apparently he was dressed in a blue shirt at least, which
18 would indicate a police uniform. Or am I mistaken?
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I really don't know
20 who is depicted in that photo. Far be it from me to try and identify the
21 people in the photo. But let me remind you that in the Jelisic case it
22 was established that he was never a member of the police force. If
23 nothing else, we can claim that with certainty, and please don't ask me
24 about the photo.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: As we are speak being that photo, I would like to
1 have that photo on the screen again, if possible. I think it's P132 or
2 P133. 133, sorry. That was the previous one. Yes, that's the one.
3 Could we zoom in on the right hip of the man dressed in the blue shirt.
4 Just a moment, I have to take the other one. More, please. Yes.
5 Can the witness tell us what he sees on the belt of the man?
6 Eventually we zoom in a little bit more.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a police baton that used to be
8 used before the war, and I still think they have the same ones.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Gasi, while we're on this photograph, this cowboy style
12 wearing of a uniform, do you believe it is appropriate of a police
14 A. Not before the war. That far you are correct.
15 Q. Am I correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gasi, at Luka, as you said, when that lieutenant
18 came, he ordered Kole to bring you in; am I correct? Did I understand
19 correctly, the JNA lieutenant?
20 A. I'm not clear about this. To bring me where?
21 Q. The one that set you free from the Luka camp?
22 A. Captain Bosic.
23 Q. He ordered that you be taken out?
24 A. No, he came to fetch me from the hangar. He brought me outside
25 and told me we are going on a trip.
1 Q. Very well. Was there a lieutenant inside of the JNA, I think you
2 mentioned him when Jelisic came?
3 A. Not a lieutenant. There was a JNA major that was there on one
4 occasion, escorted by two policemen.
5 Q. What did he order?
6 A. He asked who we are and where the Muslim snipers are, and then
7 Kosta indicated two men who were lying on the ground to my right. Then
8 the major approached him, escorted by the two policemen and began
9 interrogating them.
10 Q. Very well. In your testimony today you were shown a video-clip
11 with Vojislav Djurkovic, who, as you say, was a major since he sported
12 that rank but he wore running shoes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You say that the other prisoners in the camp told you that he
15 behaved well towards them; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My last question to you is, Mr. Gasi, when Kole took you out and
18 he told you that you were to go home, he said again you will row on the
19 Yugoslav team; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would you have been glad to have been able to compete for
23 A. Yes, I would have.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm glad to hear that and I see a
25 tear in your eye which tells me that you are being sincere. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: If the witness needs time to recompose before we
3 move on, then let us know.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine. Let's move on.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, we don't have cross-examination for
6 this witness. Thank you.
7 JUDGE HALL: Re-examination.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a couple of issues, Your Honour.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
10 Q. At page 48/25, of today's transcript, Mr. Cvijetic asked you when
11 was your membership to the SDA. I think there was a little error in the
12 transcript it said 26th of May, 1990, to November 1992. Is there an
13 error in that?
14 A. November 1992 may be a mistake. I apologise. I wasn't focused
15 enough. Me leaving the SDA and the Executive Council happened before the
16 first multiparty elections in Bosnia
17 list. I'm not sure whether it was in November, but in any case, it was
18 before the elections.
19 Q. During the time of your detention at the Luka camp, were you a
20 member of the SDA?
21 A. Perhaps not a member, but a sympathiser.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I have P129 again on the screen, please.
23 Q. At page 55/19 of today's transcript, Mr. Cvijetic asked you about
24 the map that Mr. Ristanic was drawing, or at least that the SDS had
25 provided, and he asked you about the area called Srpska Varos. If we
1 look at the first page of P129, the first paragraph deals with the
2 percentages in the Brcko municipality. And the last sentence, if you see
3 the last sentence, it says that 41.346 people were registered in the
4 town, among whom 20 per cent were Serb, 6.9 per cent were Croat,
5 55.8 per cent were Muslims.
6 Does that agree with your recollection of the ethnic breakdown in
7 the town of Brcko
8 A. I think this is correct.
9 Q. The last topic that I'd like to cover is this issue of the
10 uniforms of Mr. Cesic and Mr. Jelisic.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The same document at page 3 of the English
12 version. I'll try to find the equivalent in the B/C/S version. That is
13 page 4, the bottom of that page in B/C/S, the page which has 4 on the top
14 actually. If it's easier I'll say the ERN. It's 0074-1400 on that page.
15 Q. While that document is being brought up, Mr. Gasi, do you
16 remember earlier today you told us that a number of people were in the
17 police intervention platoon, and you also stated that Mr. Cesic was a
18 member of the police intervention platoon. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. The last paragraph of that document in the B/C/S and at page 3 is
21 the paragraph before the last. In the middle of that paragraph, doesn't
22 it say that there was a number of paramilitary troops in that area and
23 that when the war started and during the combat activities, a number of
24 members of these units joined the police intervention platoon. Isn't
25 that what it says?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And my last question, on those photos, earlier today I asked you
3 if you recognise -- if the policeman on those photos was the same as the
4 one you saw on the 7th of May. You told us this was not the same man.
5 But on those photos, were you able to recognise who that man was? Once
6 you saw the photos.
7 A. No, I wasn't. I never even said I could recognise him on a
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No further questions, Your Honour.
11 I apologise, Your Honours, one last question. I'm sorry.
12 Q. Counsel said to you today that on a number of occasions in the
13 Tadic case, the Milosevic case and the Krajisnik case, you said that
14 Cesic and Jelisic were wearing camouflage uniform. Do you remember
15 having given a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995 to
16 Mr. Buckley and Madam Castro?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And could in the English version page 9 be
19 displayed? In Sanction, please.
20 Q. Do you see it on the screen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The third line deals with Goran Jelisic. Doesn't it say there
23 that he was "keen on changing his uniform"?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And does that recollect with your memory?
1 A. Yes, this is my statement.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much. No further questions,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Gasi, we thank you for coming to testify once
5 again before this Tribunal. We wish you a -- you are now released and we
6 wish you a safe journey back to your home.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the Prosecution is ready
10 to call its next witness, Mr. Ignjic, and I now call that witness.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE HALL: Please make your solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: CVJETKO IGNJIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon, sir. Would you give us your name,
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Cvjetko Ignjic.
20 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 JUDGE HALL: What is your occupation?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a machinist.
24 JUDGE HALL: And could you tell us when and where you were born,
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 25th of December,
2 1948, in Covic Polje, the municipality of Orasje
3 JUDGE HALL: And what is your ethnicity?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.
5 JUDGE HALL: Have you given testimony previously before this
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
10 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
11 Q. In addition to those personal details that the President just
12 obtained from you, can you tell us if these details are correct:
13 Although born in Orasje, you've lived most of your life in Brcko
14 municipality or in the town of Brcko
15 nod, always answer yes or no.
16 A. Yes, in the town of Brcko
17 Q. Thank you. In 1972, you joined the police and thereafter you had
18 a career in the police as a police crime scene technician?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You continued working in the police until 1993, when you retired
21 but nonetheless continued doing police work as part of your wartime
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As part of your duties as a crime scene technician, did that
25 involve examining the scenes of crimes and gathering and recording
1 whatever evidence you could find there, such as photographs,
2 finger-prints, and other similar tasks?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think you examined during the course of your career about
5 5.000 crime scenes of which about a thousand were murders. Would that be
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Just turn your attention now to the events in Brcko
9 in late April -- or in April and May of 1992. During that period of time
10 were you married?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In the month of April, did you take your wife anywhere?
13 A. Just before the beginning of May, I took her to Bijeljina.
14 Q. And can you explain what your reason was for doing that?
15 A. Everyone expected there would be a war and one could feel tension
16 in the air. I was afraid.
17 Q. Although there was an expectation of war and tension in the air,
18 had hostilities actually broken out in Brcko or in the Brcko
20 A. The war began precisely on the 1st of May in the afternoon.
21 Q. And what, to your mind, was the event that symbolises or marks
22 the beginning of the war?
23 A. I think that it was the shooting in the eastern part of Brcko,
24 between Grtica [phoen] and Begovaca.
25 Q. What shooting are you referring to?
1 A. One could actually hear detonations.
2 Q. That's actually part of the township of Brcko
3 understand you correctly or not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. I just want you to briefly look at a document that I
6 produce to you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 92. And for the
8 benefit of the court ushers, on the B/C/S version that I want to show to
9 the witness, the section is actually on the fourth -- third page of the
10 document and it's self-evident that it's the section there headed
11 "Brcko." And if we could also have the English, that would be helpful.
12 Q. Now, this document is a document that predates the commencement
13 of war in Brcko, according to your calculations. It's dated
14 21 April 1992
15 interior and signed by the gentleman named, and you can see that on the
16 B/C/S version, a gentleman named Predrag --
17 A. Predrag Jesuric.
18 Q. -- Jesuric. That's right. Did you know him during the war?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Had you heard of him as the CSB chief in Bijeljina?
21 A. No.
22 Q. The section on Brcko which I think you can read, I hope you can
23 read, in that particular document.
24 A. I'm not familiar with this.
25 Q. No, no, I understand that. I know you are not the author of the
1 document, but I just want to ask you some questions about the content.
2 The author of the document, this Predrag Jesuric, in speaking about
3 Brcko, says that he is getting information on Brcko Serbian municipality
4 from JNA colleagues with whom the Bijeljina CSB chief has contacts. And
5 goes on to say that there are no combat activities in the area.
6 As far as you are aware, thinking about your experience in the
7 police force, were you aware of the JNA providing intelligence or
8 information to CSB chiefs? Did that ever occur during the period of time
9 that you were in the police, that you are aware of?
10 A. I'm not familiar with the relationship between the police and the
11 army and what sort of communication they had.
12 Q. The document itself goes on to refer in the very last couple of
13 sentences or last sentence, in fact, that:
14 "Meetings with SJB chiefs are to be organised, as well as chiefs
15 of stations, that are to be set up in the Serbian municipalities of
16 Zvornik and Brcko, that will eventually belong to Bijeljina CSB."
17 In April of 1992, were you aware of any Serbian municipalities to
18 be established in Zvornik and Brcko?
19 A. I wasn't.
20 Q. In April of 1992, can you remember who the chief of police was in
21 Brcko itself, and his ethnicity? If you can't remember his name, at
22 least try and give us the ethnicity of the gentleman?
23 A. He was definitely a Croat, a Catholic. I think his name was
24 Mijo, but I'm not sure. The HDZ delegated him according to the party key
25 and he was appointed the chief of SUP.
1 Q. I'm going to ask you some more details about events in early May,
2 but by early May of 1992, in Brcko, was there another chief of police;
3 and if so, what was that person's name?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd seek to tender that
7 document into evidence or at least have it marked for identification.
8 JUDGE HALL: To what end is this being tendered?
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the document itself is relevant to JCE
10 issues, communications between the military and the police, and it's also
11 relevant to the establishment of the Serbian municipalities in Brcko.
12 And it also goes to establish what the state of play was in Brcko
13 municipality at the time prior to the outbreak of war in 1992. In
14 May 1992.
15 JUDGE HALL: But how does it come through this witness?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that is why I said if the Trial Chamber is
17 not disposed to admitting the document, that it be marked for
18 identification at least.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Di Fazio, what exactly is the document?
20 I --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not headed by any -- it's not headed by
22 any -- it's not headed as a decision. It's obviously a letter or a
23 communication directed to the minister or deputy minister of the
24 interior, and from a police chief, CSB regional police chief.
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: In Bijeljina.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: He is based in Bijeljina. The author of the
2 document is Mr. Jesuric. And the intended recipient is the Ministry of
3 the Interior, attention for the minister or his deputy minister.
4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic is on his feet, yes.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you anticipated the
6 essence of my objection. We cannot even mark this document for
7 identification through this witness because he doesn't know anything
8 about the document. And you can see what the document is like. It would
9 be appropriate to tender it when we have witnesses who belong to the
10 police who may know something about this. But this witness explicitly
11 stated he knew nothing about this document.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: If I can say, just comment on that. This is most
13 definitely a document that should be marked for identification if
14 Your Honours are against me on admitting fully the document into
15 evidence. It's been referred to in the record. The only way to maintain
16 and track the use of this document is precisely for it to be marked for
17 identification. And if -- and it may then be admitted at a later stage
18 after hearing further evidence from other witnesses.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm not sure understand what you mean
20 by should be marked for identification. I've heard what you said, but I
21 confess, I don't follow the -- your reasoning.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: My colleague from the Defence just objected to its
23 even being marked for identification. I'm saying that if you don't -- if
24 you are not with me on the full admission of the document into evidence,
25 then at the very least it should be marked for identification so that at
1 a later stage if there's further evidence about the document or its
2 provenance, where it comes from, who wrote it, then at that point the
3 document that is marked for identification can be fully admitted into
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HALL: So we'll mark this for identification.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P141, marked for identification,
8 Your Honours.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you mentioned to us that you had
11 gone to Bijeljina and taken your wife there, I believe, for her safety.
12 What did you do upon your return to Brcko?
13 A. I went to my house, home.
14 Q. Did you go to the police station or report for duty upon your
15 return from Bijeljina at all?
16 A. No, I believe it was a weekend. It was the 1st of May, so there
17 were two work-free days. I believe that I went home without going to the
18 station first.
19 Q. Did you eventually go to the police station, and if so, how did
20 that come about?
21 A. When the declaration was published on Radio Brcko, it was called
22 Serbian Radio Brcko then, calling upon all of us to report to the
23 stations, I went there. It was on the 1st of May in the early evening
24 hours, or the late afternoon.
25 Q. Was that essentially a mobilisation call? Some sort of
1 mobilisation call?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is that the central police station in Brcko itself?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see police officers present?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was their ethnicity?
8 A. Serbian.
9 Q. Did you see any other persons or people apart from police
10 officers inside the police station or around the police station?
11 A. Yes, there were some troops.
12 Q. And can you describe them, please? Can you describe the uniforms
13 they were wearing and their ethnicity, please.
14 A. They were mostly unknown to me. They wore -- some wore
15 camouflage uniforms, others wore old military uniforms.
16 Q. And ethnicity, please? What sort of -- where were they from?
17 A. I didn't really know. They were mostly unknown people.
18 Q. Were they Croats?
19 A. No. I think they were Serbs but I don't really know. But I
20 suppose they were Serbs.
21 Q. Were they armed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On that occasion when you first went back to the police station,
24 did you find out what their business was, what they were doing there in
25 the police station?
1 A. I learned that on the previous night they had liberated the SUP,
2 that the chief had been replaced, and that there was now a new chief in
3 place. And the police station had become the Serbian SUP or the Serbian
4 police station, whichever way you want it.
5 Q. Thank you. The -- can you describe the atmosphere that was in
6 the police station on this occasion. Was it a calm, orderly situation,
7 or did it differ from that? Do your best and give the Trial Chamber an
8 idea of what the atmosphere was like when you first went back and
9 discovered all of this?
10 A. It was rather awkward. All the office had been broken open.
11 Things had been stolen from in there. There was shooting in town. There
12 was chaos. It was a really war-like atmosphere.
13 Q. Does your description of chaos also describe to the police
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you remain there?
17 A. No, I returned home in the evening.
18 Q. How did you -- well, let me rephrase that. Did you go back to
19 the police station over the next few days or not?
20 A. No, I went home and after four or five days, they came for me to
21 report to the criminal police department saying that the Serbian police
22 station had been established under Serbian criminal police and that I had
23 to report for duty, and that's what I did.
24 Q. Had you just taken the time off or did you get permission to go
25 home for a few days?
1 A. No. On the 1st of May, when I went home in the evening, in that
2 neighbourhood where my house is, the neighbours and I were on duty in one
3 of the houses. But in that neighbourhood there was no fighting.
4 Q. Which neighbourhood of Brcko is that?
5 A. The -- it was the Es neighbourhood.
6 Q. Was there fighting going on in Brcko town itself?
7 A. In those early days, there was fighting around Izvori [phoen].
8 It's a part of town mostly populated by Muslims. And the very centre of
9 town and the eastern parts of town, there was no fighting there.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'd like to show the witness
11 65 ter 947, please. Both the English and the B/C/S, if I may.
12 Q. While that's coming up on the screen. I think you can already
13 see the B/C/S. It's the second paragraph that I'm interested in. But
14 firstly, the document itself, you can see that it's dated from the
15 6th of May, 1992. It's a Ministry of the Interior daily report signed on
16 behalf of the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic. And it refers to:
17 "Ongoing fierce fighting in Brcko. According to the latest reports, the
18 Serbian Territorial Units are on the offensive."
19 A. Yes. That's more or less how it was. There was fighting
20 throughout May. There was fighting around Brcko practically throughout
21 the war.
22 Q. Thank you. And -- but was it fierce fighting at the time on the
23 6th of May, from what you recall, or was it just pockets of resistance
24 around town? Can you recall?
25 A. I think that in the first two months there was fierce fighting
2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender or have
3 this document marked for identification on precisely the same basis as
4 the last document. I might add that this document and the previous
5 document, of course, are either directed to one of the accused,
6 Mr. Stanisic, or authored or signed on his behalf. In this particular
7 case, the document is signed on behalf of Mr. Stanisic. The previous
8 document, it was directed to him, addressed to him or to the ministry.
9 But I just make clear that my application is to either admit the
10 document, or if you are not with us, to at least have it marked for
11 identification until there is later evidence in the case.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my objection is
15 identical as the previous one. My learned friend from the Prosecution
16 has himself stated the reason why we cannot accept the admission of this
17 document as evidence. As for marking it for identification, we are in
18 your hands.
19 JUDGE HALL: It will be marked for identification.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, could you -- [Microphone not
21 activated] I'm not sure about to whom this --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you please clarify for us to whom this
24 document is addressed. I see that it is signed by Mico Stanisic on
25 behalf of the MUP in Sarajevo
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it would appear to be at least a Ministry of
2 the Interior document. It's a daily report. At the top left-hand corner
3 of the document it says the ministry, and I dare say it's either -- I
4 dare say that it's a document intended as an archival record for the
5 Ministry of the Interior at least. Now, I can't tell from the face of
6 the document whether it was ever intended that it should go beyond the
7 Ministry of the Interior to other government organs or other government
8 representatives. At this stage there's no evidence about that. But on
9 the face of the document it just remains a daily report emanating from
10 the ministry -- coming out of the Ministry of the Interior. I can't shed
11 any light at this stage --
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: That's fine, Mr. Di Fazio. That explains at
13 least part of the reason why the Chamber is unable to admit it into
14 evidence. So the maximum we can do is to MFI it.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm -- my conjecture has just been confirmed
16 by my colleague Mr. Demirdjian. There will be evidence in this case
17 showing that these documents were later sent to the government.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It's admitted as Exhibit P142, marked for
19 identification, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, you have something before we take the
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that we can clarify a
23 misunderstanding. The signature on this document is not the signature of
24 Mico Stanisic. The Prosecutor himself said that it was signed on behalf
25 of Mico Stanisic which means that the document was signed by somebody
1 else. That is all I wanted to clarify. Nothing else.
2 JUDGE HALL: There's no dispute about that, yes. We return in
3 60 minutes.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 2.50 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record, Your Honours, before witness
9 is starting, just for the record, I'm back. Thank you.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]
11 MR. PANTELIC: Adjusting parts of the mechanisms. Thank you.
12 JUDGE HALL: I would remind the witness that he is still on his
14 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. Can the witness be shown MFI
16 P139. That was the document marked earlier this morning during the
17 Mr. Demirdjian's examination-in-chief of the former witness. MFI P139.
18 It's a list of employees of the police. Can we get the English up as
19 well or -- it's coming, is it? Thank you. We'll proceed with the B/C/S
20 in the meantime because ...
21 Q. Firstly, that document, on the face of it, is dated
22 7 October 1992
23 public security station for -- relating to salaries for the month of
24 September 1992.
25 At the top it says number 1, Zarko Cosic, chief, and you can take
1 it from me that he has also signed and stamped the document. Who was
2 Zarko Cosic?
3 A. He was the chief of SUP in Brcko.
4 Q. Do you know when he was appointed and how it came to be that he
5 was appointed chief of police?
6 A. The late Veselic got killed and he was chief before. I don't
7 know when that happened. I can't remember. And I believe that
8 Zarko Cosic came after him.
9 Q. Okay. I don't think this is in dispute. Are you talking about a
10 man named Dragan Veselic who was killed in a car accident in Serbia
11 this fellow Cosic replaced him?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Just cast your eye down the -- we have the English
15 Cast your eye down the list of names on the first page and pay,
16 of course, attention to number 13 and this appears to be your name. Are
17 they all police officers whose names you see there.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is -- we cannot interpret.
19 MR. DI FAZIO:
20 Q. Witness, can I just interrupt you briefly. If you can just do it
21 in silence, just cast your eye down, you don't have to read it out for
22 us. And look down the first page and if you need to go any further, let
23 us know. But that first page, are they all police officers?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Which one isn't a police officer?
1 A. Number 2, 5, 6, 11, 12 --
2 Q. Before you go any further, were they employees or working for and
3 on behalf of the SUP?
4 A. They were employed by the SUP in order to make up the numbers
5 since there were no Croats and Muslims available.
6 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. So, for example, number 35,
7 Trifka Zimonjic, the cleaning lady, she wasn't actually carrying out any
8 police duties at all, other than cleaning the police station; would that
9 be right?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown --
12 Q. And of course number 13, Cvjetko Ignjic, described as forensic
13 technician, that's a reference to you, is it not?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown the second page of the
17 Q. Again, cast your eye down that list, and other than people who
18 were written there in order to make up numbers, are the remainder police
19 officers who were functioning and working at Brcko in 1992?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And just to wrap this up, some individual names, please.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If we could just scroll down to 100. I think
23 that's on the -- must be the next page. 100.
24 Q. Petar Djokic. Who was he?
25 A. Before the war he graduated from the police school, then on the
1 eve of the war he was a member of the municipal board as a politician,
2 and later on, I don't know exactly when he became commander. He is a
3 police officer by profession.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I now seek to tender that document fully into
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P139 admitted in evidence, Your Honours.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with that document for
10 the time being. Can we now --
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, before we leave the document, I
12 wonder if it would make any sense to elicit from the witness if he can
13 tell us about the ethnicity of the people on the list, because the
14 document, as I recall, was from a later point, was it September or.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I can do that. I'll do that.
16 Q. Again while we've still got the document up there, all of the
17 names that you've -- that I've directed your attention to so far in the
18 last few minutes, all of the names that you've seen as you cast your eye
19 up and down the list at least on the first two page, what ethnicity are
20 the people whose names are written there?
21 A. I believe that a majority were Serbs.
22 Q. Do you see a single Croat or Muslim there anywhere?
23 A. No, not at the moment. No.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Does Your Honour wish me to take the matter any
25 further than that? Thank you.
1 Q. All right. Now, you've mentioned that you got -- took your wife
2 to Bijeljina, came back, took a few days off, and then went back to work
3 and you described the scene that met you when you came back. Did you
4 become aware of any killings, murders, killings that had occurred in the
5 town of Brcko upon your return to the police station?
6 A. Yes. There were colleagues of mine who worked with me even
7 before the war and I heard from them. They told me everything that was
9 Q. And what did they say was happening in Brcko?
10 A. That there had been a lot of killed. Dragisa told me that there
11 had been about 40 bodies discovered until then.
12 Q. The man you just called Dragisa, is that Dragisa Tesic?
13 A. Dragisa Tesic.
14 Q. And was he --
15 A. Yes, the inspector. Yes, he was an inspector who worked with us.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you get any information as to the ethnicity of
17 the people who had been killed?
18 A. A rumour had it that most of them were Muslims. Those who had
19 remained in the city. I'm not sure about every single of them, I'm not
20 sure about a hundred per cent of them. But a majority of the cases
21 involved Muslims.
22 Q. Now, I don't think it's in dispute that in May of 1992 you
23 performed some work at a grave-site. I want to ask you how it came to be
24 that you came to be carrying out that work?
25 A. When I was called to come to the SUP on the 5th or the
1 6th of May, I don't know when exactly, I don't know who it was who told
2 me, either Dragisa or the chief that I was supposed to go to carry out
3 identification of the bodies who were being buried. I was to replace
4 Dragisa who was called to another place. Before I came, it was Dragisa
5 who was doing that.
6 Q. Right. So you were tasked with carrying out this process of
7 identification and it was an instruction that was given to you by police,
8 either Dragisa or Veselic. Is it -- do I understand you correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you told where to go, where to find this grave-site?
11 A. I believe that Dragisa showed it to me. It was a long time ago.
12 It's very difficult for me to remember exactly.
13 Q. Thank you. And did you eventually go out there and look at the
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. When you got there, what did you first see? And I'm talking
17 about the occasion when you first went to this place?
18 A. I saw the road towards Bijeljina, the road forked off on the
19 right-hand side towards a farm, and on the right-hand side a hole had
20 been dug out some 5 to 6 metres wide and some 10 to 15 metres long. It
21 was about 3 metres deep, and at the bottom of that hole or pit I saw
22 certain number of bodies.
23 Q. Was the -- is there a farm anywhere near the location?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did it have a name? If so, what?
1 A. It was the so-called Bimeks farm. Bimeks was a meat processing
3 Q. And were you given any assistance by the police to carry out this
4 process of identification or were you carrying out this task by yourself?
5 A. I was assisted by the workers from the utility company who
6 brought the bodies.
7 Q. But you were the only policeman operating and working at the
9 A. The only forensic technician.
10 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how the bodies got there?
11 A. The utility company had a vehicle. It was a small cooler truck.
12 That truck belonged to the utility company. In the course of the
13 morning, they would go and collect bodies if they had learned -- if it
14 had been reported to them that there were dead bodies to be found lying
15 somewhere on the road. And they would bring such dead bodies close to
16 the farm where they were deposited.
17 Q. Was there any heavy earth-moving equipment nearby during the time
18 that you were there?
19 A. I remember that there was a yellow excavator that does do some
20 earth works, but I don't know exactly where it was located.
21 Q. Thank you. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how you came to go
22 to the grave-site, this grave that had these people in it? Was it
23 something that you did every day or something you were notified about or
24 something done according to a schedule? How did you come to go --
25 actually go there?
1 A. The workers from the utility company called a duty officer. The
2 duty officer would tell me. I would get into my car and I would go
3 there. I spent nights and days at the SUP building. I never went home.
4 I slept there as well.
5 Q. But the instructions to go on any given day to the mass
6 grave-site emanated, as far as you were concerned, from the duty officer,
7 the police duty officer?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And do you recall how often you went to the site of
10 the grave during the month of May?
11 A. You can find the dates when I went there. I believe that it was
12 more frequent in the month of May, and as time went on, it happened less
14 Q. Thank you. And what about June and early July, did you also go
15 to the grave-site?
16 A. In early July. I believe that early July was the time when that
17 grave-site was no longer used and was replaced by a normal procedure to
18 bury dead bodies at regular cemeteries. I believe that -- actually, it
19 was in early June when a more normal procedure was put in place to bury
20 dead bodies.
21 Q. Thanks. And just to finally be clear on this issue of visits,
22 you've talked about May and you've clarified the situation for early
23 June -- for early July. In June, did you go to carry out the same sort
24 of tasks at the grave-site?
25 A. I'm not sure that I understood your question properly. I did go
1 there in the month of May and the month of June, and then in early July,
2 dead bodies started being buried according to a normal procedure. In
3 cases of crimes there were investigations. And I believe that already in
4 the month of July there was a case of foul play and that that was
5 investigated by the Brcko court. And that from then on, the procedure
6 that was followed was a more normal, regular burial procedure.
7 Q. Thanks. I'd like to show you two photographs now.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: The first one I'd like to show you is P135. Can
9 that be put up on the screen, please.
10 Q. Do you recognise that location?
11 A. Yes, that's the grave-site.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: And can the witness be shown 65 ter 2692. Can
14 that also be put up on the screen.
15 Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment, please.
16 That's not the photograph that I intended to exhibit. Would
17 Your Honours just give me a moment, please.
18 My apologies, my mistake. 2693. That's the one.
19 Q. Now, do you recognise that --
20 A. I don't have a photograph in front of me.
21 Q. You will in a moment. Just hang on.
22 A. Oh, it's the same photograph with a perhaps wider angle.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Would the ushers be so kind as to try and get a
24 bigger image of the gentleman standing to the right of the photograph.
25 You can see him there in what appears to be a brown jacket. That man.
1 Thanks. Okay. That will be enough.
2 Q. Do you recognise that individual?
3 A. Yes, Aco Stevanovic.
4 Q. And who is Aco Stevanovic?
5 A. He drove the truck. He was an old worker from Brcko. By that
6 time he may have been 60 years old. He used to work for the public
7 utility company, fixing their trucks and driving them.
8 Q. Thank you. You've told us that the police provided you with
9 information about where these bodies were coming from. Did you ever get
10 information from the drivers of trucks, for example, from Mr. Stevanovic,
11 as to where they were picking up and collecting bodies?
12 A. I never asked questions about that topic.
13 Q. Thank you. You may not have asked questions but perhaps they
14 might have volunteered information. Did they ever volunteer any
15 information to you about where they were collecting these bodies that
16 you, throughout the month of May and June, and early July of 1992, were
17 burying in a pit? Did you ever ask them that question?
18 A. I may have but I can't recall any details now. I don't know. It
19 was a long time ago. They probably did say things about that.
20 Q. Would it assist you to refresh your memory, since you can't
21 recall any details now, to look at a statement that you provided to the
22 Office of the Prosecutor on the 29th of October, 2002, with a view to
23 refreshing your memory? Would that be of assistance to you?
24 A. Perhaps.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I would like the witness to be -- would
1 Your Honours just bear with me.
2 Be shown on the screen 65 ter 10025. 10025.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Di Fazio, do you want that previous photo
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I do, and I'll just -- I'm going to come back to
6 that so I will be asking for that one to be made a full exhibit. But in
7 the meantime, if we could just deal with the topic of the memory. Thank
8 you. And can we go to page 3. Yes, the third page in of the English.
9 And I am afraid I don't know where it appears in the B/C/S because --
10 I'll do my best, but -- it's about -- the paragraph I'm interested in is
11 about midway down in the English.
12 Q. Perhaps if just I read out the English paragraph to you, that
13 will assist. Sorry, my apologies --
14 A. "The corpses were being collected in the towns and its environs.
15 I never asked Stevanovic where he collected the bodies."
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to read slowly.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. DI FAZIO:
19 Q. Okay. I'll just -- I'll assist you. You said:
20 "I never really asked Stevanovic where he took the bodies from.
21 At the beginning of the war, most of the bodies were collected from the
22 Luka detention camp and then the centre of town close to the SUP and the
23 hotel Posavina."
24 Now, having seen that in your statement given to the Office of
25 the Prosecutor in 2002, does that assist you or refresh your memory as to
1 information that you received anyway about where the bodies were being
2 collected from, where they were coming from?
3 A. Well, I'll tell you what, as part of the crime department, where
4 I spent my days at that time, there was much discussion about the
5 murders. Therefore, I managed to hear a lot from my work-mates.
6 Q. I can well understand that, and I'm sure everyone here does, but
7 all I'm asking you is this: Having seen what you said to the Office of
8 the Prosecutor in 2002, that most of the bodies were collected from Luka
9 detention camp, the centre of town close to the SUP and the hotel
10 Posavina, does that assist you now in recalling information that you
11 received about where these bodies came from?
12 A. I believe I heard it from my work mates. I heard a lot from
13 them, I think.
14 Q. I'm sure you did. I'm sure you did. Some of the things that you
15 heard were that bodies were being collected from Luka, centre of town
16 near the SJB station and this place called the hotel Posavina; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thanks for that clarification.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we go back to the last photograph I
20 exhibited, please. It's the photo that shows the man, Mr. Stevanovic.
21 Thanks. And could we please just scroll -- I just want to get a bigger
22 look at the bodies, please. A more closer zoom-in view of the bodies.
23 Bottom half of the photograph, in other words.
24 Q. Those people seem to have -- seem to be wearing civilian
25 clothing. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if the people who you saw being
1 buried in May and June and to a lesser extent in early July wore civilian
3 A. For the most part. A very high per cent of them did.
4 Q. And it's difficult to tell the sex of any of those people, but in
5 that period of time that I just referred to, were some of the people
6 being placed in the mass grave women as well as men?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I seek to tender that photograph into
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P143, Your Honours.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, you've told us that you are the only police officer working
14 there apart from other council workers or assistants from the local town,
15 like Mr. Stevanovic -- I'll withdraw that question.
16 Let me ask you this: Did you carry out any identification of the
18 A. We would do as follows: When the bodies were brought in, two
19 workers would get them off the truck, and as I had no protective
20 equipment such as gloves, I would ask them to search the bodies and the
21 pockets for any documents. If any documents were retrieved, we used
22 those to ascertain the identity of the corpse. Some of the dead bodies
23 used to be people whom I had known previously and I was able to identify
24 them even without any documents.
25 Q. Okay. So other than documentation that was found on the body
1 itself or from knowledge, your own personal knowledge of faces and of
2 people, there was no other way of identifying who went into the grave?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you keep records of the identifications you made?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you keep the actual documents or objects that allowed you
7 to identify the person? I suppose like driver's licences and identity
8 cards and so on?
9 A. The documents were preserved for awhile in the SUP building, but
10 at some point they began to stink because some of them were covered in
11 blood, and I asked the chief what I was to do with them. He simply said
12 that the documents should be destroyed, burned.
13 Q. Chief who precisely? Who was that, is that Veselic or someone
15 A. Veselic.
16 Q. Right. So before he died in his car accident, obviously -- I
17 suppose that's self-evident, I won't ask that question.
18 Did you ever -- now, you've told us you kept the records of the
19 identifications you made. Did you ever use those records to produce some
20 sort of permanent record of whatever identifications and numbers of
21 bodies that had gone into that particular grave that you were working at?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So you made only one record?
24 A. Yes. There was a list which I handed over.
25 Q. Yes. To whom?
1 A. To one of the supervisors. I think it was the chief, but after
2 this much time it's difficult for me to say who. Someone ordered me to
3 hand it over and I did. Later on, at some point in time, I did see the
4 list again. When I gave my first statement to the OHR, I was shown that
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown 65 ter 10131.
7 Both B/C/S and English, please. Thank you. And I'd ask for the Court's
8 indulgence and the usher's assistance.
9 Q. I'd just like you, witness, please to have a look at the document
10 as it comes up on the screen.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we have the next page, please. And if we
12 could just go to the top of the document. See what's at the top. If we
13 scroll up.
14 Q. While we are waiting for that, you can -- there we are. We can
15 see on the English that another date appears, and in the interests of
16 time, and there's no dispute about this, I don't think, this document
17 contains lists of names and dates. Having seen the first and second page
18 at least, is that -- does that contain information that you acquired, you
19 produced, concerning the identities when you were working at the grave?
20 A. The one for the 6th of May?
21 Q. I'm talking about the entire document now. Let me ask you this:
22 Is this a document that I showed you some days ago here in The Hague
23 A. Approximately, yes. I don't recall everything precisely, but it
24 was similar to this one.
25 Q. Is the information that you got when you were carrying out your
1 identifications contained in this document?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Thank you. Were all of the people that you identified, all of
4 the names you produced, either Muslims or Croats?
5 A. I recall the people of the 6th of May. Franjo Vugrincic was a
6 Croat. I knew him personally.
7 Q. He was one of the people who was buried at the grave that you
8 worked at?
9 A. Yes, on the 6th of May.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. I also knew Safet Sahrimanovic. He was frequently in prison.
12 Some of them I knew, others I didn't.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'd like to look at items 114 and then
14 123, number 123. In the English, 123 appears at -- seven pages in, I
15 believe, and it's under the 24th of May, 1992. And for the B/C/S, well,
16 it's under the 24th of May, 1992, but I'm not sure how many pages in.
17 Q. Number 123 is a chap named Zeljko Malencic, son of Marjan and
18 someone has written, you can see it in the B/C/S version, just to the
19 left of the document - if we scroll to the extreme left - ZNG or Croatian
20 National Guard Corps.
21 Do you know how it was that that one individual happened to be
22 identified as being a member of the ZNG or Croatian National Guard Corps?
23 A. I recall that case, he was brought in in a uniform of the
24 Croatian Defence Council or with some other Croatian insignia. He was in
25 uniform and had ID on him.
1 Q. Thank you. And that was something that assisted you in order to
2 conclude this man is a --
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. -- Croatian?
5 A. I recall that particular case. I think he was from Rijeka
6 it says Rijeka
7 Q. If we just scroll back to number 114, that's an item that appears
8 on the 19th of May --
9 A. [No interpretation]
10 Q. Number 114 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading to himself.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I could see.
13 MR. DI FAZIO:
14 Q. Okay. And there we can see that you must have been able to make
15 a note observing that this chap who had died and was going into the grave
16 was dressed in a camouflage uniform and had a band around the head. That
17 must have obviously come from observations you made; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So therefore if the vast majority of these -- if you've been able
20 to carry out observations like this, you would have been able to note if
21 the remainder of the people who went into that grave were in any way
22 combatants because the remainder don't have any -- any combatants,
23 c-o-m-b-a-t-a-n-t-s, because you'd -- the list is -- other than those
24 two --
25 A. I never wrote that down, save for these two ...
1 Q. Thank you. And were you ever -- did you ever receive
2 instructions to differentiate between civilians and combatants?
3 A. No one gave me any particular instructions.
4 Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe the wounds on the people
5 who were going into that particular grave?
6 A. Yes. Many people were covered in blood because they had bullet
7 wounds in the chest or the head. I didn't register each and every such
8 wound, but a high percentage of them had them.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, now I come to look at the documents
10 and there's a note dated 18th of May, 1992. It's about five persons,
11 four of them being apparently elderly women. And it says -- there's a
12 note underneath it that says all dead women brought from the morgue died
13 of natural causes. And my question is: Whose note is that exactly? Is
14 that the witness's note or a doctor's or?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know. And I think the best thing is to
16 ask the witness.
17 Q. You've heard His Honour's question, can you give us any idea of
18 that particular note, 18th of May?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps the B/C/S could go back one day.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall it. Could I be
21 shown the note, please.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. There it is, you can see it at the bottom of the B/C/S version.
24 18th of May. 109 to 113, four females and a male, all of a certain age,
25 brought from the morgue. Died of natural causes. Do you know who made
1 that note?
2 A. I suppose I typed it out because it seems to be the same
3 typewriter throughout the document. I can't recall it but I think it was
4 in the hospital, that those bodies were taken from the hospital to the
5 morgue and then from the morgue to the location. I suppose the women
6 were Muslim. All brought from the morgue died of natural causes, as it
7 says here. I can't recall the specific cases then.
8 Q. Thank you. I can assist you in directing your attention to other
9 bits of the document but it may not be necessary. I can tell you that
10 the document has -- and if Your Honours want to see this, it's at 136,
11 137, item 136 and 137. At some times throughout this document people are
12 listed as being suicides. Do you know how -- how that note came to be
13 made and why people who had committed suicide would be going into this
15 MR. PANTELIC: I think, Your Honour, objection. It's really
16 calling for speculation. This witness is neither psychiatric or --
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: If I may clarify. I guess the point, if at all
18 relevant, the point would be from whom would the witness receive
19 information that he would then subsequently put into the list.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's right. And that's precisely right
21 and I'm certainly not inviting any speculation.
22 Q. So please don't speculate. But these entries appear, do you know
23 where the information came from? And secondly, do you know, if they were
24 in fact suicides, why they were put into that grave?
25 A. Because the Muslim cemetery or the mezar could not be approached
1 since it was in the proximity of some combat activities and the area was
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, I seek to tender that document into evidence.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P144, Your Honours.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown another document, please.
8 It's 65 ter 258.
9 Q. Witness, just so that you can -- you don't need to read it out,
10 by the way. Just have a read of the first page. You see that this is a
11 document dated 22nd October 1992 from Momcilo Mandic and sent to various
12 government entities and personalities. And it says that there is a
13 report attached on the situation in prisons and collection camps in the
14 territory of the Republika Srpska.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: If we go to the next page, please, of both
17 Q. And again you can see that it's dated the 22nd of October, to the
18 minister of justice and administration. And it's a report on the
19 situation in prisons and collection camps, prisoners of war, and it deals
20 with various municipalities. Number 1, Vlasenica; 2 is Zvornik.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If we continue with the English, please. And I
22 think the next page in the B/C/S should take us to Brcko. Number 3. And
23 if that could be made visible for the witness so that he can read it.
24 Q. Just have a look at what it says about Brcko.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And if -- Your Honours will have to ask for the
1 English to go over to the next page because it doesn't finish on the same
2 page. Okay. May I proceed, Your Honours? Thanks.
3 Q. Well, the first sentence, the report says:
4 "In the town of Brcko
5 accommodation of detained enemy soldiers."
6 Then he says that the author of this report says he visited the
7 town to verify a report by the International Red Cross who alleged or
8 were concerned about a large number of citizens of Muslim nationality
9 being liquidated. And the author says that he had a meeting with the
10 most responsible people in Brcko and eventually ascertained that there
11 were five mass graves where a total of 226 people are buried.
12 Thinking back now, are you aware of there being four other graves
13 apart from your own?
14 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
15 Q. Thank you. Thinking back, can you tell the Trial Chamber how the
16 job that you oversaw, that you personally oversaw continued throughout
17 June and July, was there one hole only into which the bodies were placed
18 or were there more holes created at the same site as time wore on?
19 A. As far as I know, there was just one. And later on, burials took
20 place in the cemetery. As of the month of July onwards, people were
21 buried in cemeteries.
22 Q. Yes, yes, I understand that. I'm with you there. But what I'm
23 asking you is this: During May and June when you are carrying out this
24 task of identifying the bodies before they were put into the grave, you
25 must have covered them at some point, surely, with earth, otherwise they
1 would putrify?
2 A. Unfortunately they did putrify and they did smell, unfortunately.
3 Q. I can understand that. But as that process went on, did you dig
4 any more holes at the same site, the same place you were working at?
5 A. No, as far as I know.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. And the number corresponds, 266 persons. If I were to draw a
8 list combining five mass graves, that would correspond. I actually don't
9 think that this is correct. Five mass graves. No, that's not correct,
11 Q. The author of this report goes on to say these people died during
12 combat activities in Brcko. Since there was a danger of an epidemic,
13 they were buried with religious rites. And the relevant services of
14 interior ministry and other services carried out the identification of
15 dead people on several occasions.
16 Are you aware of anyone else in Brcko, any other police officer
17 from the interior ministry carrying out identification of dead people
18 other than yourself?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And we don't need to look at the screen but --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. We don't need to look at the screen but the author of this report
24 is some person named Slobodan Avlijas. Have you ever heard of the
1 A. Slobodan?
2 Q. Avlijas?
3 A. No, it doesn't ring a bell. I've never heard of a family name
4 like that.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, I would either -- my
7 first application is to admit the document fully in evidence, but again
8 if you are not with me, I'd ask for it be marked for identification. And
9 there will be further evidence later in the case concerning this
10 particular document.
11 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P145, marked for identification,
13 Your Honours.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 10132. It's a
15 handwritten note.
16 Q. Witness, the document that I showed you earlier, the list of
17 names of identified people, that runs from May -- 1st of May to the
18 10th of July. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. I mislead
19 you. It runs from the 5th of May to the 10th of July. And on my
20 calculations it's got about -- has got 216 people.
21 So this note may or may not refer to your list.
22 First question is this: Do you recognise the handwriting or do
23 you know --
24 A. I believe that this is my handwriting.
25 Q. It's yours?
1 A. I think so but I think roughly.
2 Q. There's no one better qualified to tell us than you. That's your
4 A. I think so. I think it is.
5 Q. Well, in that case, can you tell us how it was that you came to
6 write this note; why; for what reason?
7 A. That I can't recall. Buried in mass grave, 216 total;
8 identified, 103; died of natural causes, 8; female bodies, 9. The people
9 killed were buried at the cemetery properly marked and with religious
10 rites. Maybe as I was handing over the list to somebody, to the chief or
11 somebody, it doesn't really matter, maybe I also compiled this note. But
12 I can't recall. I can't ...
13 Q. Very well. Thank you very much.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: And I ask for this to be fully admitted into
15 evidence, and I can tell the Trial Chamber that there will be other
16 evidence about this particular document
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, before we hear Mr. Pantelic, can
19 you clarify with the witness the meaning of the second addition at the
20 bottom of the note that says that:
21 "The people killed were buried at a cemetery, properly marked and
22 with religious rites."
23 Because I'm not sure I completely have understood the sequence of
24 events here. Did the witness first take part in the opening of a mass
25 grave and then identify the bodies and then have them reburied somewhere
1 else, or can you clarify --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I will. I don't think that's the scenario but
3 I'll ask the witness to describe -- to provide us with the information.
4 Q. Firstly, the mass grave that you worked at in May and June and
5 early July of 1992, they were people who had been killed and were being
6 brought directly to that grave, they hadn't been exhumed or taken out of
7 graves elsewhere, as far as you were aware?
8 A. No, no.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, an objection. There
10 is a discrepancy between the original in B/C/S and the translation. My
11 learned friend from the Prosecution uses the term "killed." However, in
12 the handwritten text it says "buried," not "killed." However, in the
13 English version I can see the word "killed" instead of "buried," and
14 that's what the Prosecutor is using. I don't think that the witness, if
15 this is indeed his document, did not use the term "killed."
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about this word [B/C/S
17 spoken], this is not the term I would use. I have my doubts now as to
18 whether I really authored this document. I don't think so. I would
19 never have used this term [B/C/S spoken] "buried." I'm in doubts.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Be it at it may, the word [B/C/S
21 spoken] does not correspond with the word "killed."
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In any case, this is not the word
23 that I would have used.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Please let me finish --
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Let's cut through this. Could the witness please
1 read out from the last parts -- the last paragraph and then hear what the
2 interpreters have to say about it. Then we'll have an interpretation
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Starting with the 10th of July,
5 1992, [B/C/S spoken] buried at a certain cemetery properly marked in
6 keeping with religious rites.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's remark the word [B/C/S
8 spoken] almost cannot be translated into English. It means "pushed" and
9 it's out of the context completely.
10 MR. PANTELIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honour. The word
11 [B/C/S spoken] in B/C/S means like when some of members of Trial Chamber
12 are familiar with that, like when we are launching a new ship into the
13 sea, Your Honour. So that means word [B/C/S spoken]. You know, like we
14 have in shipyard new and it's going to the sea. So I really cannot find
15 exact word in English, but ...
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Ignjic, is that the word that you said
17 that you would never use?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I don't -- no, I
19 don't think I would ever use this word, [B/C/S spoken].
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: We won't get any further with this.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, Your Honours. I'm grateful to
22 Mr. Pantelic for his assistance.
23 Q. But let me go back to my question, which actually had nothing to
24 do with this document. It was answering a query that His Honour
25 Judge Harhoff had asked, and that's this: The people who you were -- who
1 were going into the mass grave in May and June and July whom you were
2 sometimes identifying, had they been killed or died somewhere and been
3 brought directly to the site, or had they been exhumed from somewhere and
4 taken once again to be buried a second time?
5 A. Directly brought.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Ignjic, what I don't fully understand
7 yet is you then met the bodies in that mass grave to which the bodies
8 were brought directly, that's what you are saying. You then proceeded to
9 try and identify the bodies that were brought to that mass grave; is that
10 correct? And once you had identified them to the extent that you could,
11 what would then happen to the bodies? Would then they be left in the
12 mass graves for some time and then taken to the cemetery or what
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Let me explain. When that
15 truck brought the dead bodies from any part of the town, before they were
16 put in that hole that had been dug out, before that we tried to identify
17 them, and when that was done, they would be lowered into that hole or
18 pit. And then as far as I know, that hole was sealed after the
19 10th of July or some date around that time in July. And I don't know
20 what happened after that to those bodies.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry to spend time on this, but if I
22 understand you correctly, then the bodies remained in the mass grave and
23 then at some later point somebody else took them to a cemetery and had
24 them properly buried; is that correct? Or is it a fact that you simply
25 don't know what happened? In any case, what brought you to add the
1 second paragraph on your note that the people who were pushed were buried
2 at a cemetery properly marked and with religious rites. Can you tell us
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 1st of May until the 7th
5 of -- or 10th of July, all the dead bodies of non-Serbians lying around
6 the town were buried in that mass grave. And I'm giving you approximate
7 dates. After the 10th of July, the authorities were re-established. In
8 town when a dead body was found, the investigating judge and prosecutor
9 would come to the site. There would be investigation. Doctors came from
10 Doboj to carry out postmortems, and then people were buried in cemeteries
11 after having undergone that procedure. And the burials were carried out
12 in accordance with procedure.
13 Anything that happened between the 1st of May and the
14 10th of July people were buried in the mass grave. People were not
15 buried in a proper way in proper cemeteries. It only started happening
16 after the 10th of July, not before.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you. Now, all of this leads to the
18 question: Who organised the burial in the mass grave up until 10th July,
19 and who organised the burial in the cemeteries after the 10th of July?
20 Which authority organised all of this, do you know?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe it was the authorities,
22 but I don't know who exactly.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you be more specific? Was it the municipal
24 authorities or was it the police or was it the army or -- who took care
25 of all of this?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO:
4 Q. Just to follow on from His Honour's question, were you ever
5 present at any exhumation and reburial?
6 A. Many times before the war.
7 Q. Okay. But I'm talking about the people at the grave-site that
8 we've been talking about this afternoon?
9 A. No, no.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. No.
12 Q. And how do you know it occurred?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. What I'm asking is this: Your note indicates that the
15 people were buried at a cemetery properly marked with religious rites.
16 You didn't attend any exhumation and reburial --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I think there is a misunderstanding
18 here. If I understood the witness correct, the second paragraph refers
19 to other bodies, not to the bodies that were in the mass grave. That's
20 bodies that were found or collected after the 10th of July. And they
21 were buried properly. That's what this tends to say.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I must have misunderstood.
23 Q. You just heard His Honour. His Honour has got the correct
24 understanding and I don't; is that right?
25 A. His, yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honour for that.
2 I might just alter my order of documents at the moment and just
3 utilise the last five minutes because I will have about another
4 20 minutes in the morning, if Your Honours, please, or 15 minutes.
5 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 33, please.
6 Has the note been given an exhibit number?
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes, it now will be.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P146, Your Honours.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just for the record, I'm not
10 objecting to -- for the admission of this exhibit if you are speaking
11 about this note where witness was not a hundred per cent sure whether
12 that was his handwriting or not. I would suggest that this witness now
13 in this courtroom make his writings of the same text which is on the
14 document and then Defence could forward it to graphologist or a
15 handwriting expert in order to be a hundred per cent sure whether that
16 was his handwriting or not.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic, may I just ask you, do you contest
18 the information provided in the note, because the only thing of
19 importance are the numbers there, that there were 216 persons in total,
20 103 were identified, 8 died of natural causes, and 9 of them were
21 females. That's the substance of the note which the Chamber needs to
22 take into account at a later stage.
23 Now, if you want to challenge those figures, then of course we
24 can proceed through the procedure that you'd -- but if you are fine with
25 the figures, then I don't see the point in having a graphologist to check
1 whether this was or was not his handwriting. That's, in my view,
3 MR. PANTELIC: If your opinion, Your Honour, is that it's not
4 relevant, then I cannot say nothing but to admit. But it's a matter of
5 principal, you know. If --
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: It's the information -- sorry to interrupt you.
7 It's the information contained in the note that is relevant. And if you
8 agree that this is relevant and you don't contest the substance of that
9 information, if you agree with the numbers that are there, then I don't
10 see the need to proceed to a graphological examination of whether this is
11 or is not his handwriting. Because in the end what matters is the
12 figures that are contained therein. And if you are fine with them, then
13 I suggest we just drop it and take the information for what it is,
14 whoever drafted it.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Could I be of some assistance to Mr. Pantelic. I
16 have I'm sure I can be. We've already heard that the witness said it was
17 his handwriting and then later had reservations about an expression used
18 in the document. But there will be other evidence in the case about that
19 note, and Mr. Pantelic may want to revisit the whole issue after that
20 other evidence in the case has come -- has been presented to you, and
21 Mr. Pantelic has had an opportunity of observing it, so why don't we put
22 the issue on ice. He can always revisit it later, having heard all of
23 the evidence concerning the note.
24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes, I agree with this approach. Yes, sure.
25 We shall have time to challenge that then.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm always glad to be of assistance.
2 Now if we could have 65 -- I note the time, Your Honours. It
3 might be -- it's quarter past.
4 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated].
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, rather than embarking on a new line, we'll take
7 the adjournment to tomorrow morning.
8 To the witness, you are now sworn as a witness in this case and I
10 the lawyers from either side in this matter and in your conversations
11 with anybody else you cannot discuss your testimony that you are giving
12 here. Do you understand what I've just said?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
14 JUDGE HALL: So you would be required to return to this Chamber
15 tomorrow morning at 9.00 when your examination-in-chief by Mr. Di Fazio
16 will continue. Pleasant evening.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, if you could just clarify one other
18 thing. The Prosecution has filed a motion on 14th of October seeking to
19 change the mode of testimony of three witnesses, ST-52, ST-79, and ST-4,
20 and it is unclear it me in the motion whether the testimony of the last
21 of these three witnesses, ST-4, who originally was listed as a 92 bis
22 witness, whether you wish to have him or her transferred to a 92 ter or
23 to a viva voce, and I'd kindly ask you to clarify tomorrow.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll get -- either I'll address you or Ms. Korner
25 will in the morning and we'll clarify that.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.
2 JUDGE HALL: I understand that tomorrow morning we resume in
3 Courtroom I. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.16 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of
6 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.