1 Monday, 26 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Zupljanin not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
7 everyone in around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Good morning to everyone, and we resume
10 our work in the usual manner by having the appearances entered.
11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, Belinda
12 Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Appearing for Stanisic
14 Defence Slobodan Zecevic and Slobodan Cvijetic. Thank you.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honour, appearance from
16 Zupljanin Defence Dragan Krgovic for counsel. Our client sent over their
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before I call the witness who is here
19 today, can I just mention in passing, though I would like to discuss it
20 at the end of today, I e-mailed the legal officers and the Defence in
21 respect of the documents for tomorrow's witness. I don't know whether
22 Your Honours were informed about that. And obviously I would like some
23 kind of a ruling or at least some kind of an agreement before he gives
24 evidence tomorrow, because otherwise there are two ways of doing this.
25 One is reasonably quickly, and the other is very, very slowly indeed.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Mrs. Korner. We have eagerly studied
2 the correspondence, and we hope to be able to rule on it after the break.
3 We will discuss it during the break and then hope to pass down our ruling
4 immediately at the beginning of the second session of today.
5 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, the witness this morning is
6 Aleksandar Krulj. Your Honours, he is going to deal with a small
7 municipality but which comes under the jurisdiction of the Trebinje CSB.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: ALEKSANDAR KRULJ
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Witness. Can you make your solemn
12 declaration, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare
14 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Witness, can you please
16 state me your name.
17 THE WITNESS: Aleksandar Krulj.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Krulj. You can understand me? You have the
19 interpretation? Yes?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can you tell me your date of birth, please?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 10th of August, 1958
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your first name? I forgot. Your first name?
24 Your Christian name?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Aleksandar.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. What is your profession, please?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am an attorney.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And your ethnicity?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is this the first time you testify before this
6 Tribunal, or did you already testify in other cases?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm testifying for the first time
8 before this Tribunal.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Okay then. Now you will be asked
10 questions by the Prosecutor first and then in cross-examination by the
11 counsels of the Defence. Okay? Are you okay with that? Okay.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mrs. Korner.
14 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I was complaining I hadn't got any
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MS. KORNER: And the reason is because I haven't plugged my
18 earphones in. It is Monday.
19 Examination by Ms. Korner:
20 Q. Mr. Krulj, can I, first of all, ask you a little bit about your
21 background. I think it's right that you graduated from law school and
22 then worked for the Property Rights Service in the Ljubinje Municipal
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Subsequently, did you join the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina
2 to work as an inspector at the Mostar Security Services Centre?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And from Mostar did you move to Ljubinje at the end of 1989 to
5 work on what you've described as the duties and tasks of defence?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then in 1991, on the 1st of January, did you become chief of
8 the public security station, the SJB, at Ljubinje?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I think you remained there until May of 1994, when you
11 were -- you became chief of the CSB in Trebinje?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And just so the Court is aware, you've told them that this is the
14 first time you've testified before this Tribunal, but did you make a
15 statement originally to the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and Herzegovina
16 at the State Court?
17 A. Yes. In the case of Krsto Savic and others in February of this
19 Q. And you also testified in the trial against Krsto Savic and
21 A. Yes, in March of this year.
22 Q. And I think it's right that a few months ago Krsto Savic and the
23 co-accused were convicted of crimes against humanity.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And just so that the Court understands straight away, Krsto
1 Savic, during the period of 1992, was the chief of the CSB at Trebinje?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Right. Now, I want to move next to asking you a little bit about
5 MS. KORNER: And could we first of all have up on the screen the
6 big map of Bosnia
7 Is there a problem? It keeps coming and going. Actually, Your
8 Honour, interestingly enough we have binders for Your Honours of maps and
9 things that we were going to hand out today and then I left them in my
10 room. We could have used those.
11 Is there a mechanical failure? There's a mechanical failure.
12 All right. No, it's not in ...
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, if the maps are ready in your
14 office, could you have the scout bring them down to us. Then -- if we
15 need them anyway, we might as well get them.
16 MS. KORNER: Or even a Girl Guide.
17 Can we get somebody to bring them down.
18 I tell you what. I gather it works on video. No, it doesn't.
19 It's stopped.
20 All right. While that's happening, Your Honours, I can go on and
21 ask further questions and then hopefully when we get the things done we
22 can come to that.
23 Q. Mr. Krulj, we'll come back to the maps, because the machinery's
24 not working properly for us, unfortunately.
25 Can we try just one more map and see if that comes up better?
1 10 -- 65 ter 10062.
2 All right. We'll come back to that. Sorry, Mr. Krulj, you've
3 got it.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. You've got the map, but nobody else has in court, so we'll come
7 back to the various maps.
8 Now, you told us that you started to work in Trebinje in 1989; is
9 that correct?
10 A. In 1989, I started to work in Ljubinje, not Trebinje.
11 Q. Ljubinje. Sorry, my fault. And when you became chief in January
12 of 1991, was it still an ethnically mixed police station, SJB?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In April of 1991, did you become aware of the division of the
16 A. I think that the division of the MUP took place in April 1992.
17 Q. I'm sorry, 1992. Forgive me. In April of 1992. How did you
18 hear about the division of the MUP?
19 A. Well, that would require slightly longer answer. In our area, in
22 October, 1991.
23 Q. All right. That was the war in Croatia.
24 A. Yes, but the war spread to the Bosnia and Herzegovina area, to
25 the part of the municipalities of Trebinje and Neum, and this is where
1 regular Croatian Army units were involved. At the time, the security
2 situation was the way it was. In Herzegovina the reserves were called
3 up, the police reserves throughout the whole municipality. War was at
4 the boundaries of our municipality. And I found out about the division
5 of the MUP after a decision by the National Assembly -- or the People's
6 Assembly of Republika Srpska, or the then Serbian Republic of Bosnia
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. -- in March 1992 when the government was formed and certain
10 ministries, including the Ministry for Internal Affairs.
11 Q. Were you sent or did you receive a copy of a letter from Momcilo
12 Mandic explaining about the split of the MUP?
13 A. I don't remember the letter, but if each public security station
14 received it, probably I received it as well. I don't remember the
15 contents, but if I can recall correctly, Momcilo Mandic was the justice
16 minister in that government.
17 Q. Yes. He later became that. All right. On the 1st of April, was
18 there a meeting held in Trebinje, which was attended by all the chiefs of
19 the SJBs?
20 A. Yes, I remember that.
21 Q. And was that meeting attended by Mico Stanisic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, were you aware at a stage that he was the new minister of
24 the interior?
25 A. Well, I found out about it that day, because they said that new
1 minister of internal affairs was coming, Mico Stanisic. That was the
2 first time that I saw him in my life.
3 Q. Right. At the meeting what did he say?
4 A. I think that the meeting didn't last that long. Perhaps less
5 than an hour, because the minister was in a hurry to get somewhere. He
6 just informed us briefly that a new Law on Internal Affairs has been
7 adopted of the then Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that the
8 provisions of the law are practically identical to the previous one, then
9 the fact that some other existing centres for informing another one was
10 being introduced in Trebinje.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note there is a background
12 noise making it difficult to hear the witness.
13 MS. KORNER:
14 Q. Right. Now, you say that some other existing centres for
15 informing was being introduced in Trebinje. Before April of 1992, had
16 there been a CSB in Trebinje?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where was the -- which CSB covered the area of Trebinje?
19 A. The Mostar Security Centre.
20 Q. Right. And was there an explanation from Mico Stanisic why there
21 was going to be a change?
22 A. I said that earlier, that the People's Assembly -- well, it was
23 probably -- you know that at the time the National Assembly split up,
24 that the Assembly government and ministries were formed, and I knew that
25 from the media.
1 Q. Yes. Sorry. It's my fault. There hadn't been a CSB at Trebinje
2 until then. Were you being told that there was now going to be a CSB at
4 A. This was written in the law.
5 Q. That's the Law on Internal Affairs.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And was there an explanation as to why it would longer be in
9 A. I don't know how to answer that. The question is not clear to
10 me. A law was adopted.
11 Q. Yes. But was there any explanation given to you why instead of
12 the CSB being in Mostar it was now going to be in Trebinje and that's
13 why -- and there had been a change in the law? Were you -- were you --
14 was it explained to you why there'd been this change in the law?
15 A. I can give you my opinion, because already at the time the
16 majority of the Serb cadres were expelled from Mostar, and they came to
17 the Trebinje area. Not only the employees of the MUP but just regular
18 citizens, people.
19 Q. All right. So had the employees of the MUP from Mostar, or from
20 the centre at Mostar, come to Trebinje?
21 A. Yes. Jovo Cokorilo was the head of the criminal investigations
22 unit in Mostar, and he worked in Trebinje. Zorica Sarenac was the
23 administrative legal advisor in -- in Mostar, and she continued to work
24 on the same job in Trebinje. Marko Cabrilo also performed his duties
25 both in Mostar and in Trebinje.
1 Q. All right. Well, when we get the screen back, I'm going to ask
2 you to look at a diagram of the CSB in Trebinje, but at a meeting on
3 April the 1st, were you told who the new chief -- or who the chief of the
4 CSB in Trebinje was going to be?
5 A. I think that it was said that it was Krsto Savic, but I don't
6 know whether Krsto Savic got the letter of appointment or not within the
7 next few days after that. I don't know, but it was said that he would be
8 the chief, yes.
9 Q. And did you know Krsto Savic before this?
10 A. Yes, for a brief period of time.
11 Q. Where had you known him?
12 A. Well, I met him in Nevesinje. I think that at the time in 1989
13 he worked -- or while I was still working in Mostar, and he was deputy
14 commander at the time. Ibro Feriz was commander and he was deputy
15 commander, and that was his first job in the police force. And since I
16 was police inspector, I used to know these people.
17 Q. Now, after April the 1st in your police station in Ljubinje, was
18 there a change of uniform?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What, none at all?
21 A. Just a change of insignia.
22 Q. Right. And the change was -- was what in the insignia?
23 A. Well, the insignia was changed. Instead of a five-pointed star
24 on the cap, they had a tricolour flag.
25 Q. Right. Did your police officers have to take any kind of oath to
1 the new government, the Serbian republic?
2 A. Well, I don't know. I think that the formal oath was first done
3 in Trebinje. And as for people doing this in police stations, no. We
4 used to sign an oath always, whenever we were issued with an official ID,
5 rather, that was regulated by the Law on Internal Affairs of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina. When a person was given an official ID, then members
7 would give a solemn declaration where they would take up certain duties
8 and so on.
9 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, now I see we have here the actual
10 folders. I don't know if the equipment is working yet, but as I see
11 there's still a technician probably not. Can we hand to Your Honours --
12 there are two different ones. These were provided to the Defence last
13 week, and we've got them for the court staff as well, or legal officers.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours. It was my understanding
15 that the Office of the Prosecutor provided us with this courtesy copies
16 last week in order that we give some comments before it is provided to
17 the Trial Chamber. I'm afraid since we are very pressed with the
18 witnesses this week, very important witnesses, we didn't have time to
19 give our comments on this. So I'm not opposing that this be given to the
20 Judges, but I reserve the right to comment, if I may, later on. Thank
21 you very much.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I say that they're just -- they
23 contain maps. One of them contains maps, and the other contains the
24 diagrams that are attached to the pre-trial brief, but obviously if
25 there's any changes that need to be made we'll take them away and make
1 those changes later.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we've provided them in hard copy, but
4 just in case Your Honours possibly wanted to make any sort of markings.
5 There's two different ones. One is maps, and the other one is
7 JUDGE HALL: Without more, I could understand the Defence wishing
8 to reserve the right to make comments about the charts binder.
9 MS. KORNER: They're the ones, Your Honour, that were attached to
10 the pre-trial brief which were altered after the Defence had and input,
11 but as I say, if there's any problem, we can always change it.
12 Okay. Can we -- I'm told the screens are now working, so perhaps
13 for the purpose of the witness we can have up the map of -- the map of
15 Yes. Now, can we move -- it will have to go up a bit because I
16 want the bottom part of the map. Thank you. Stop, stop, stop. Thank
17 you very much.
18 Q. All right. Mr. Krulj, I think we can see Trebinje marked at
19 the -- near the bottom tip of Bosnia
20 see Dubocanin just to the left of it, and as you pointed out to us,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Ljubinje, which is where you were based, if one goes up the
24 map from Trebinje towards Stolac --
25 A. Yes. Sixty kilometres to the west.
1 Q. Yes. And just while we've got the map open there, Bileca, which
2 was another municipality that came within the jurisdiction of the CSB
3 Trebinje, is to the right of Trebinje, looking at the map, and virtually
4 on the border with Montenegro
5 A. Yes. Thirty kilometres to the north of Trebinje.
6 Q. And then -- I don't have Gacko marked, but I can't see it at the
7 moment. Oh, yes, Gacko. One goes up the border from Bileca, going up
8 the map. Gacko is a little bit further up to the -- to the right; is
9 that right?
10 A. Forty-four kilometres to the north of Bileca.
11 Q. Quite right, to the north.
12 MS. KORNER: All right. And then can we have the next map on the
13 screen, which is the second map in the bundle. 10134.
14 Q. All right. And that gives us a clearer idea of the
15 municipalities. We see Ljubinje, and as you talked about, there's Neum
16 to the west and Bileca to the east, and then Stolac and --
17 A. To the west.
18 Q. To the west. Right. Finally on maps, can I ask you to look,
19 please, at an ethnic map of Ljubinje, which is number 10062, which you
20 had a chance to look at yesterday.
21 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, that's not in Your Honours'
23 If we -- can we see the top of the map first of all, please.
24 Q. This shows the -- your -- the municipality of Ljubinje
25 markings showing the ethnicity.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's fairly clear so we haven't
2 bothered to translate it. It's a map based on the census of 1991, Hrvati
3 being Croats, Srbi being Serbs, and Muslimani being Muslims, fairly
4 obvious, and those that describe themselves as being Yugoslavs and then
6 Q. First of all, you had a chance to look at this map. Do you agree
7 that it's an accurate representation of the way the -- the various
8 villages were made up ethnically in the area of Ljubinje?
9 A. Yes. And I agree, and I'm familiar with this, yes.
10 Q. And it appears that the only majority Croat village was a small
11 one called Misljen.
12 A. Yes, Misljen.
13 Q. And we can see that in fact the Serbs in this municipality had an
14 absolutely overwhelming majority; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There appear to be only 39 Croats on some 332 Muslims in 1991.
17 In 1992 were the figures still the same more or less?
18 A. Which month?
19 Q. April.
20 A. All of the Croats remained in the territory of Ljubinje
21 Muslims moved away in July of 1992 to Montenegro and to Mostar.
22 Q. And now finally on diagrams, could you have a look, please, at a
23 pictorial representation of the CSB in Trebinje.
24 MS. KORNER: It's in Sanction, and it's in the second binder,
25 Your Honours. I think it's 610. 611. Sorry, it is number 11. It's the
1 last document in the binder.
2 Q. All right. First of all --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
5 Q. The chief is shown as Krsto Savic, and we see the chiefs of the
6 SJBs that came under Trebinje, and we can see you. I agree it's not a
7 very good picture of you, Mr. Krulj, but that's you to the very right; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are the chiefs who are shown on that diagram correct? I
11 mean, obviously we know there were changes, but at the time we're talking
12 about it's April of 1992.
13 A. I can say that in 1992, at that meeting, there were chiefs of
14 Trebinje village, Gacko, Berkovic, Nevesinje, and Ljubinje stations.
15 Now, as for the reorganisation, when Foca, Kalinovik, Rudo, Cajnice, and
16 Visegrad were attached, I can't really confirm that it was in April.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. And there was a mistake here. I think it says -- let me just
19 see. Bosko Govedaric. His real name is Govedarica -- his last name is
20 Govedarica, and as for the others, yes, I'm familiar with their first and
21 last names.
22 Q. Sorry, of -- this is Kalinovik SJB, is it? You say there's a
23 mistake in the name.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you just spell the last name of that chief for us.
1 A. Govedarica.
2 Q. We'll have to make some changes. Now, was there also working at
3 Trebinje CSB a gentleman named Cuk?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what position did he hold?
6 A. Cuk was acting chief of police department in the Trebinje centre.
7 Q. And was he appointed early on or later?
8 A. He was commander of the police in charge of traffic security. He
9 had completed only secondary education, and he didn't have an education
10 higher than that, and I think that that's why he was acting chief. That
11 was back in 1992.
12 Q. Yes. I will just ask -- sorry, it's my fault. When was he
13 actually appointed acting chief? Straight away when the CSB was created?
14 A. When the CSB was created, because police department exists within
15 the security centre. He could not have been appointed earlier than that,
16 because the institution did not exist earlier.
17 Q. And finally before we leave the diagram, we see that the
18 undersecretary for national security service, the SNB, first of all, was
19 a man called Slobodan Skipina, and then Dragan Kijac. Did you attend
20 later in 1992 meetings or a meeting with Slobodan Skipina?
21 A. As far as I remember, just once. There was a joint meeting in
23 Q. And underneath that as head of the SNB in the Trebinje CSB was a
24 gentleman named Slavko Draskovic. Did you also meet him?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you very much. That's all we need from that diagram.
2 Now, next can I just ask a few things before we look at the
3 documents that I'd like you to assist us with. Was there a Crisis Staff
4 set up in Ljubinje as everywhere else in the area?
5 A. Yes. In every municipality there was one, either War Presidency
6 or in some cases it went by the popular name of Crisis Staff, but, yes,
7 they did exist.
8 Q. Yes. Don't worry, because we know they were later renamed War
9 Presidencies. And did you attend meetings in your capacity as chief of
10 the CSB in Ljubinje?
11 A. Chief of the public security station in Ljubinje, yes.
12 Q. Sorry. I said CSB. SJB. And would you attend those meetings on
13 a regular basis?
14 A. No, not every time.
15 Q. Did you also attend a number of meetings in Trebinje which were
16 called by Krsto Savic as the chief?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We're going to look at the records of some of those in a moment,
19 but how often would Krsto Savic call meetings on average during the
20 period April until September of 1992 in particular?
21 A. Well, depending on the security situation, but mostly there would
22 be a meeting every 10 to 15 days. Every 10 or 15 days. And maybe
23 sometimes there were meetings that were one week apart.
24 Q. How would you find out about the meetings?
25 A. Communication was a problem with us, telephone communication. We
1 didn't have faxes either. Sometimes we would use radio stations, ultra
2 shortwaves, and we would be notified either by a courier or by telephone,
3 because almost every day somebody travelled between these places, either
4 civilian authorities or somebody else. So we would use that. We would
5 use courier if telephones were not operating. Otherwise, we would use
6 telephone, and we would be notified that the meeting would be held on
7 such and such day at such and such time. They would be mostly in
8 Trebinje or in Bileca. In Trebinje we would hold meetings in the
9 pensioners' centre, and in Bileca it would be in cultural centre, which
10 is used for something else nowadays.
11 Q. Right. Can I deal now with communications, please. Were you
12 obliged to send reports to the CSB in Trebinje?
13 A. Every police force, even nowadays, all European police forces
14 have regulations on how reports are sent in their chain of command. So
15 we had a regulation that regulated all kinds of reports. It was called
16 an instruction on regular, emergency, and so on reporting. It existed
17 within the ministry. It was in force then, and it is in force even
19 Reporting covered some major events. I don't want to go into
20 details, but we would have monthly reports, reports sent every three
21 months, and we would have current reports that were sent daily every day
22 at 6.00 p.m.
23 municipality, and it would be sent to centre, and then the centre was
24 duty-bound to send a report to its superiors, which was within the
25 ministry. So we would make it for the territory of municipality. Krsto
1 would make a report for the territory of the region, and then somebody
2 else would probably make it for the territory of the entire republic.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not sure whether the
4 report was sent at 6.00 p.m.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Did you hear that, Mr. Krulj? Could you tell us, was it 6.00
8 A. I think that at that time it was both in the evening and in the
10 Q. And you told us that you occasionally had problems with the
11 telephone. How would you send the reports or the -- by
12 telecommunications, I mean, fax, printer, what?
13 A. It applied only to Ljubinje. It was typical for Ljubinje only.
14 Before the war within the postal and telephone telegraph system Ljubinje
15 belonged to the Mostar area code 088. So physically speaking there was a
16 communications tower facing Mostar and the Velez mountain. When it was
17 destroyed a new one had to be built in 1992, a new relay tower, and then
18 the new one was turned to face another direction. So for about six
19 months we had problems with telephone communications, which means that we
20 did not have fax or teleprinters. So we would mostly send it via
21 courier. At least I would from Ljubinje.
22 Q. All right. And did you have secure -- when you had telephone,
23 the telephone working, did you have secure phones? Special police secure
25 A. No. We had it before the war but not later on. You mean what we
1 used to popularly call special phones.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. No.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours line 19 -- page 19, line
5 12. I believe the witness gave the number of months during which he
6 lacked any communication, and it didn't enter into the transcript, and I
7 would like that this be clarified. Thank you.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Do you -- did you -- Mr. Krulj, you were asked if you gave the
10 number of months that you say that the communication tower wasn't
12 A. I said perhaps as long as six months. I think while the new
13 relay tower was being built. I wouldn't be able to say whether it was
14 four months or six months, but for a longer period of time in 1992,
15 starting with the destruction of the relay tower on the Velez mountain,
16 which was sometime in late April, and then all the way until the fall.
17 During that period of time. It could have been as long as six months.
18 Q. Are you saying you had no telephone communication at all during
19 that period or only intermittent? In other words, from time to time.
20 A. None at all.
21 Q. So all reports had to be delivered by courier every day.
22 A. Mostly, but it wasn't an everyday thing. It was too expensive.
23 We used a macadam road that you could only drive 50 kilometres an hour to
24 get to Trebinje, so it was difficult.
25 Q. Now, as it turned out, did you have any major problems in your
1 area of operations, in Ljubinje? For example, with paramilitaries or the
3 A. No, but we had a lot of soldiers coming in, because war was under
4 way. The Trebinje road was captured by the Croatian Army, and there was
5 the Podgorica Corps of the then army in our area. There was a lot of
6 uncontrolled firing throughout the town, violations of law and order.
7 Catering facilities would be taken over. I mean, it was a difficult
8 situation. Thank God there were no killings and things like that.
9 Q. When you had your meetings, you presumably learnt about the
10 problems that were apparently occurring in other places such as Gacko and
11 Bileca. Did you have anything like their problems?
12 A. We all had similar problems as far as the security situation was
13 concerned, if you're thinking about the things that I was talking about,
14 the security situation.
15 Q. All right. We'll look at it as we look at the records of some of
16 these meetings.
17 I want to just concentrate on some reports that were sent.
18 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please, on the screen 65 ter
19 number 936.
20 Q. And it's -- have you got your volume of documents, Mr. Krulj?
21 Could you -- no, you haven't. Somebody's taken them away?
22 MS. KORNER: Could he have them, please? It's going to be easier
23 if he look -- quicker if he looks at them in the binders. Sorry, there
24 was a binder in front of him. Yes.
25 Q. And if you go to, please, the first page. It's now on our
1 screen, but -- in other words, the B/C/S is but not the English.
2 MS. KORNER: Could we go to the last page, please, of that to
3 begin with. The last -- very, very last page. And for some reason we
4 have B/C/S on both sides of the screen. No. What's going on. We want
5 the last page in English, please, and the last page in B/C/S.
6 No, the last page. No, honestly, you had it up. Last page in
7 B/C/S, please, last page in English. All right.
8 Q. Okay. This is apparently a document which bears the stamp of the
9 minister of the interior and a signature. Do you recognise
10 Mr. Stanisic's signature or not? If you say -- if you don't, say so.
11 A. I didn't really see that many documents with his signature.
12 Q. All right. It's dated -- and if we go to the first page, please,
14 MS. KORNER: Yes. And English as well, please.
15 Q. All right. That says "Daily report," from the minister of the
16 interior, dates 22nd and 23rd of April, 1992. It's report number 3.
17 Then can we go, please, to the second page in the English, and
18 it's still the first page, I think, in the B/C/S.
19 Does that say -- I think it's the last paragraph, that:
20 "On the 22nd of April, 1992, an explosive device went off in the
21 Centar cafe in Gacko"?
22 Now, two questions: I know you weren't in Gacko. Were you aware
23 from any meetings you had that this had happened, this explosion in a
24 cafe owned clearly by a Muslim?
25 A. Well, I believe that it did happen. It says so in the report,
1 but I don't think that it was particularly discussed at any meeting. I
2 mean, it's not the only thing.
3 Q. No, but it was quite --
4 A. It was the only thing that happened in our area. It's possible
5 that the chief informed us at a meeting that during the past month such
6 and such things happened. That's possible.
7 Q. But you say it wasn't particularly -- sorry, I'm just going to
8 turn up what you did say. I don't -- you don't think it was particularly
9 discussed. Was it not there -- wasn't it unusual, therefore, to have an
10 explosive device placed in a Muslim cafe?
11 A. Looking at it from now, from this point of view, it is unusual,
12 and it's terrible. At the time, such device were planted under cars, in
13 cafes both on the Muslim and Serbian side, and unfortunately was just a
14 part of our everyday life at that time.
15 Q. And this is a report, apparently, from Mr. Stanisic. How would
16 the information from Gacko, in your experience, have got to him?
17 A. I think that Gacko sent the information to the Trebinje centre.
18 Let me just take a look at the date. Yes. And then the duty operations
19 processed that in Trebinje, and then from the Herzegovina area they sent
20 it to the service in the ministry, and then they compiled the bulletin.
21 It's unusual for the minister to sign a report of -- a daily report. In
22 the station it's not even the chief who signs the daily reports. This is
23 something that's done by the duty officer. So this is why I think this
24 is unusual, but perhaps this was signed by the minister. I don't know.
25 Q. Well, we can look at a second example and that's all that I want
1 to. Can we go, please, to 65 ter 938?
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, before we leave this document, I
3 apologise for being unable to catch exactly to whom this report was sent.
4 I think it appeared from the top of the document, but I just --
5 MS. KORNER: No, it doesn't say to who it was sent. It just says
6 the minister of the interior.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: But could we clarify it, to whom this document
8 was sent?
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Do you know, Mr. Krulj, to whom this document would be sent?
11 A. As far as I know, we made a bulletin, my service, in order for me
12 to be informed as the chief of the station with all the events during the
13 previous 24 hours. We would send it to the centre so that the chief of
14 the centre would know what would happen -- what happened in the area, the
15 centre covered over the past 24 hours, and then the bulletin would be
16 drafted at the service at the ministry for the minister for his
17 information to know what happened in the territory of the republic. If
18 somebody outside of the MUP requested a bulletin, then it's possible that
19 it was signed by the minister as such a request could be made by the
20 prime minister, the president. In that case, it would be signed by the
21 minister. For your information purposes, internally, that document would
22 be signed by the head of the duty operation service.
23 I hope I was clear.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: So presumably the document that was signed by
25 Minister Mico Stanisic, would then be sent probably to the government or
1 to the prime minister?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to our rules, according
3 to the rules of any police force, any document that is sent for
4 information purposes outside of the ministry should be signed by the
5 minister. This is possible. I cannot tell who -- to whom this bulletin
6 was sent. Perhaps to the prime minister, perhaps to the military command
7 if they requested it. This is a regulation of the law on the MUP duties.
8 That's how the procedure goes according to the law.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may -- may this be exhibited.
11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. It will be exhibit P155.
13 MS. KORNER: All right. And very quickly because I don't want to
14 get too buried in these documents. One other example of Mico Stanisic.
15 If you would pull up, please, 938. First page for the B/C/S and the
16 English. And if you go to divider number 2, please.
17 Q. That's dated the 24th of April. The first one was dated the 23rd
18 and was marked number 2. This is number 5. And again, if we go to the
19 last page. Second page in B/C/S, third in English.
20 Again, it looks like this -- this one actually is signed for. We
21 see "Za," don't we, for the Minister of the Interior, Mico Stanisic.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And again there's reference to something that happened in Gacko.
24 This covers a number of areas, but if you go to the last paragraph in
25 B/C/S on page 1 and the fourth paragraph on page 2 of the English. We
1 see that on the 23rd of April, a manslaughter took place, and there was
2 an investigating judge from the Trebinje Lower Court.
3 Can we take it from that that investigations into crimes were
4 carried on even during this -- this period of conflict?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Yes. Thank you.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may -- that's also on our 65 ter list.
8 May that be exhibited, please.
9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers] As Exhibit 156, Your
12 MS. KORNER:
13 Q. Now, there are a number of examples of these reports but I just
14 want you to look very quickly, if it's at all possible, for one more
15 report, which will be 65 ter 973 behind divider 7. No, sorry, it's
16 wrong. I beg your pardon, 65 -- forget that. That's the one I didn't
17 want to show, actually. It's 65 ter 959, behind divider 4.
18 That shows that it's -- again it's the ministry of the interior,
19 Daily Incident Bulletin Number 15. And if we go, please, to the second
20 page in the English and the bottom of the first page in B/C/S.
21 It says:
22 "No reports or daily incident bulletins had been submitted by
23 Doboj, Bijeljina, or Trebinje, CSB by 1200 hours," 21st of May.
24 What would -- in your experience would be an explanation for
25 Trebinje and indeed the other two not being able to submit reports?
1 A. I already said that Ljubinje had problems with reporting back.
2 There were problems with telephone lines because there was no other
3 reason not to send reports.
4 Q. Okay. And this -- on this occasion it's signed apparently -- or
5 it's not signed but typewritten it says "Investigation And Documentation
6 Service." What was that?
7 A. The service for analysis and data. They compile all the
8 interesting events and put them together for purposes of information of
9 the employees. This service was formed in our branch in 1994. It
10 monitors, analyses the situation, the crime rate and the general
11 situation in the area, and then reports back about it. It's a section
12 within the security centre that deals with analysis, and I think -- I
13 hope that it is clear what I was trying to say.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... assistance. I
15 note for some time that the witness is talking far too quick for
16 interpreters, and a number of words that he says and parts of the
17 sentences is not entered into the transcript. So if my colleague can
18 please instruct the witness to talk slowly.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Mr. Krulj, you've heard Mr. Zecevic. If you could try and talk a
21 little bit more slowly so that every word can be interpreted.
22 A. I apologise.
23 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honours, may that be exhibited
24 again. It's on our 65 ter list.
25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 157. Your Honours.
2 MS. KORNER: This is one of about a number of reports which
3 purely go to the communication that was going on. I don't want to waste
4 time by going through every single one of them and it's to be hoped that
5 we can find some method of dealing with these documents either by them
6 going in as a bar table motion or as some kind of agreement about
8 Q. So can I move next -- oh, well, Your Honours, perhaps -- I note
9 the time. I think it's -- it would probably be better, I'm moving to a
10 different area.
11 JUDGE HALL: We have two minutes. Can you make use of it?
12 MS. KORNER: I can try to get something up on the screen. That
13 would be useful, I'm sure. I'd like to move, please, to document 96 --
14 sorry, 65 ter 47.
15 Q. And you, sir, will find it behind divider 8. This is a report
16 from the CSB at Trebinje, and it's headed "Information on the work of the
17 Trebinje CSB," between the 1st of July to the 15th of August.
18 Now, when you became chief in 1994, would you send these types of
19 reports to the minister of the interior?
20 A. Not like this unless somebody particularly requested it.
21 Q. And what's -- why -- when you say "not like this," what's the
22 difference between this report and any that you sent?
23 A. The information on the work and the security situation in the
24 police is done monthly, every three months, every six months, and
25 annually. Here we're looking at something else. I think that the
1 security situation was quite complex and there were plenty of remarks on
2 the work of the Trebinje Security Centre. So the ministry wanted a
3 report to be drafted for the period of 1st of July to the 15th of August
4 because you can see that it is a little bit unusual what was going on for
5 that period of month and a half. Anyway, that is my opinion of it.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes. Would Your Honours like me to go through the
7 content or pause there for the break?
8 JUDGE HALL: It's 10.25. We could take a break.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
12 JUDGE HALL: Mrs. Korner, the reason for our extended break was
13 that as promised, we are considering -- we have considered, really, your
14 application, and we will give an oral ruling before the Court rises for
15 its next break. Thank you.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Mr. Krulj, just before we go back to the document that you were
19 looking at and we were all looking at, two matters I ought to have dealt
20 with earlier. Firstly, I forgot to say that apart from your interviews
21 and testimony at the state court, you were also interviewed by the Office
22 of the Prosecutor in August of this year, and I think you saw Mr. -- you
23 were able to speak to Mr. Zecevic yesterday; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. And one other thing. You were talking about the
1 problem with telephone communication in Ljubinje because of the
2 transmitter. To your knowledge, and if you don't know say so, did the
3 same problems apply to other municipalities such as Bileca and Gacko, or
4 was it only in Ljubinje?
5 A. Occasionally other municipalities would have problems too.
6 Q. But you say there was no telephone communication for
7 approximately six months. Was that the same everywhere, or did the
8 transmitter only affect Ljubinje?
9 A. Only Ljubinje.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, if we go back very swiftly to this report. If
11 we go, please, in the English to the second page and in the B/C/S also to
12 the second page. Sorry, third page. I see it's got these ridiculous
13 stamps by Mr. O'Donnell.
14 In the second paragraph it states that:
15 "Mostar and Konjic police stations do not function in the area of
16 Eastern Herzegovina
17 of the Serbian Army. Reserve policemen of Bileca ... 15 active policemen
18 from Stolac ... and 30 policemen from Ljubinje are at the front."
19 And the date of this report -- well, it was a report between July
20 and August. Was that accurate, that you had 30 of your force fighting?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And then can we go, please, to page 7 in the English and to
23 page -- it's got 4 at the top in B/C/S, but it's -- 0074-9771 is the ERN
25 A. All right.
1 Q. We see in the third paragraph:
2 "Frequent cases of unlawful breaking into apartments and moving
3 in represents one of the most complex security problems ..."
4 Was that a problem that affected you in Ljubinje?
5 A. In Ljubinje we didn't have this problem. We had very few cases
6 of apartments broken into. But I need to clarify something here. This
7 was the period of time when from the Neretva valley, from Mostar and from
8 Capljina, to the borderline municipalities a lot of refugees came to
9 those municipalities, refugees of Serb ethnicity. They had been expelled
10 from Capljina, Dubrava, Stolac, Mostar, and they were the ones looking
11 for some sort of accommodation. If they happened to find a vacant
12 apartment, then they would, on their own, enter those apartments without
13 having a prior decision of the commission for accommodation. So that was
14 what was going on.
15 Q. And the empty apartments, who did they belong to? That they
16 broke into.
17 A. In these municipalities, if there were cases of non-Serbs leaving
18 their apartments, then into those. And there were also cases where Serbs
19 had left their apartments, and there were a lot of such cases. People
20 would flee to Serbia
21 these refugees would break into those apartments as well.
22 MS. KORNER: And then if we go to the last page -- sorry, the
23 second to last page in the English. And in the B/C/S it is page 5. It's
24 got a little 5, but it's 0074-9773. Sorry, not the last page. Can we go
25 back to the one before the last page in English. Okay. Sorry about
1 this. Forget certified. It's the page before that. Yes, no. No,
2 before. Before, before, before. Page 9 of 12 at the bottom it says, in
3 English. Yes.
4 Q. There's a list of all of those criminal reports that have been
5 sent in, and we can see that from your municipality it's the smallest
6 virtually. And then at the last paragraph:
7 "For known reasons of nonfunctional judiciary organs in this area
8 reports are not timely filed, although the majority of cases are
9 processed and completed, what will be done."
10 What was the problem about the judicial organs?
11 A. As I have said earlier, Trebinje was under the jurisdiction of
12 the District Court in Mostar. So there was just the basic court in
13 existence. At the time it was called the Municipal Court in Trebinje,
14 and at that time it wasn't functioning for the simple reason that some of
15 the judges had been mobilised. You won't believe it, but there were --
16 they were. And as for the judges that I know, I used to know one of them
17 who was a Muslim. He had moved away to Zenica. We still are in contact
18 to this day. His name as Kurtovic Sudo, and I think that that was the
19 reason. So there used to be just two or three judges before the war so
20 that the court didn't start operating right away until new judges came in
21 from Mostar.
22 Q. I just want to look at one example of a report that you were
23 involved in but can we ask, please, that this document be exhibited.
24 It's 65 ter 47.
25 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P158, Your Honours.
3 MS. KORNER: All right.
4 Q. Can you, sir, in your binder go to divider 22.
5 MS. KORNER: And can we have on the screen, please, 65 ter 10060.
6 Q. This is a record of an on-site investigation. The crime was May
7 the 10th, 1992. And if we go, please, to the last page in the B/C/S.
8 MS. KORNER: Sorry, the ... sorry, my mistake. Can we -- not the
9 last page in the C/B/S [sic]. It's an on-site investigation -- beg your
10 pardon. Can we have, sorry, the first page. Yes, in B/C/S. That's
11 right. And the first page in the B/C/S. Yes, dated the 4th of February.
12 Q. This is addressed to the public security station Trebinje. The
13 date is actually the 4th of February, 1993, and we see the head of the
14 SJB, Aleksandar Krulj, but the offence was May the 10th, 1992, and what
15 happened was that artillery shells seemed to have damaged the Orthodox
16 cemetery. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And can you tell us, first of all, why would the date of the
19 report that you sent be in February of 1993?
20 A. I can't remember the reason now. I did sign this criminal
21 report, this criminal complaint. Whether it was only the fact that they
22 were not functioning, I don't know, but I can say that starting on the
23 10th of April, almost on a daily basis 20 to 30 shells fell on Ljubinje,
24 the inhabited part. So all of the buildings were damaged by the shells,
25 private houses, socially-owned houses, villages, buildings, and so on.
1 If in wartime one were to create such on-site investigation reports and
2 file criminal reports, I don't know if it would be possible, because this
3 was a war area after all. And in this particular case, somebody -- some
4 of the religious officials asked us to compile this report, and we did
5 file a criminal report. And as you could hear just now, the courts were
6 not functioning at the time when this record was made.
7 I gave you an explanation. I don't know. That's how it was.
8 Q. Right. All right. On the subject of -- of religious damage,
9 destruction, was there a mosque in the town of Ljubinje?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What happened to that?
12 A. I think that during night-time some kind of an explosive device
13 was planted there.
14 Q. And was it -- it was planted. Did it go off?
15 A. Yes, yes. And the majority of it was torn down. When I say a
16 device, I'm referring to an explosive device.
17 Q. Can you give us a rough idea of when that was?
18 A. I think that it happened sometime in early June, and I think that
19 we have records of that at our police station. I can't give you the
20 exact date, but I think it was early June.
21 Q. So this destruction wasn't the result of shelling but somebody
22 planting explosives. Did you ever find the perpetrator?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you see if you could find the perpetrator?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was if possession of explosives at that time of the -- the
3 A. Well, the military -- or, rather, the engineering corps.
4 Q. Was there also a Catholic church in the town?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did anything happen to that during these events of 1992?
7 A. Nothing. Not a single bullet was fired into that church. It
8 remained intact as it used to be, and now they have added some more to
9 it, so it's bigger now.
10 Q. Yes. Thank you.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this wasn't on our 65 ter list, but
12 it's a document that this gentleman dealt with. May it be admitted as an
14 JUDGE HALL: There --
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: We do not object to this document.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Admitted and marked.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P159, Your Honours.
21 MS. KORNER:
22 Q. All right. Mr. Krulj, I want to move to a very big meeting that
23 you attended on the 11th of July of 1992.
24 MS. KORNER: Could we have 65 ter number 198, please.
25 Q. And you will find it behind divider number 9 in your bundle.
1 Now, the document is headed "A brief analysis of the functioning
2 of the MUP so far and the outlines of its future activities. (Summary of
3 the meeting of the MUP officials of the 11th of July, 1992)," and it's
4 headed, the Ministry of the Internal Affairs.
5 Can we turn, please, to the second page in both English and
7 Does your name as attending appear in the second paragraph,
8 roughly three lines from the bottom of that paragraph?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. And the meeting, it was attended by really the great and the
11 good, Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Skipina, Mr. Kusmuk, everybody and
12 everybody, as we can see.
13 There were very few members of the heads of the SJBs present.
14 Just yourself, was it, and Mr. Cokorilo? Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And also Mr. Petar Mihajlovic was their from the Federal Republic
17 of Yugoslavia
18 and I should ask you this first: Who asked you to attend the meeting?
19 A. Krsto Savic asked me to attend. Since this was a rather serious
20 meeting they needed information on the security situation, so it was up
21 to me to inform them about the situation regarding the police and Jovo
22 Cokorilo about the crime rate and so on. I think that I was invited
23 because, I can say so openly, I was qualified for this particular area.
24 Before the war I used to work as a police inspector. I controlled the
25 work of all police station, Mostar, Neum, Rudo, in the area of the entire
2 this is why I informed them about the security situation, and it's most
3 likely that Krsto selected me because other chiefs had just started
4 working. They were new to their jobs and they probably weren't as
5 familiar with the topic as I was.
6 Q. All right. We'll come to what you dealt with in a minute, but if
7 we go in the English to page 5 of 29, and in the B/C/S to the third --
8 no, sorry, one, two, three, four ... it's 0324-1852 at the top.
9 Stojan Zupljanin was the first to speak. Was he somebody that
10 you knew? Sorry, after Mico Stanisic, rather.
11 A. I didn't understand your question.
12 Q. Sorry. Did you know Stojan Zupljanin before this meeting?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, he made a very, very long speech indeed, and I would like
15 you to have a look, please, at -- and it's the English page 8 at the
16 bottom and in the B/C/S it is page 0324-1855, I think. At least I hope
18 Do you see a paragraph, sir, that begins "The army and the Crisis
19 Staffs/wartime Presidencies"? Can you see that in the B/C/S?
20 A. I can.
21 Q. " ... demand gathering as many Muslims as possible and leave such
22 non-defined camps to the internal affairs."
23 Now, in your municipality or in any that you knew about from your
24 meetings at Trebinje, were the army and Crisis Staffs demanding Muslims
25 should be gathered together and put in camps which were being run by the
2 A. What I see here is that this was something that the army and the
3 Crisis Staffs asked for. I can say that in the territory of my
4 municipality there was no such thing. No population was gathered. There
5 was nothing of this sort. I heard that this happened in Bileca, but I
6 don't think it lasted for a long time, at least that's what I heard, as
7 far as our area is concerned, and it's the first time that I see here
8 that something like that was asked for.
9 Q. But -- I mean, you were present at the meeting. First of all, I
10 suppose I should ask you, did you get a copy of those minutes?
11 A. The security centre received it. I think there was a copy at
12 Krsto's, and I think I read it. All right. But what I'm saying is I saw
13 that then. I found out about it. I found out about these things then.
14 Q. Right. All right then. I want to go through this fairly quickly
15 because it's a fairly long document and it's bound to be -- come up
17 Krsto Savic spoke and gave a -- a rundown on what was happening
18 in Trebinje. Then Mico Stanisic again.
19 Can we come, please, to page 14 in the English, and I think it's
20 page 12 in the B/C/S.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we go down the page in English, please. Thank
23 Q. "Mico Stanisic emphasised that the government was working on a
24 new political territorial division of the Serb republic in order to avoid
25 the previously necessary forms of Serbs autonomous districts and regions
1 and to introduce districts."
2 Now, were you aware of the formation of the Serb autonomous
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And did you in your area -- which Serb autonomous region did you
6 come under in your area?
7 A. The Autonomous Region of Herzegovina, or Eastern Herzegovina
8 don't remember exactly what the name was.
9 Q. As far as you were concerned, was there any role played by the
10 leader of the autonomous districts in that area?
11 A. As far as the police was concerned, no.
12 Q. And then can we move, please, to Mr. Kusmuk. Page 17 in the
13 English, and I think it's page 14 in the B/C/S. I'll just see if I've
14 got that right.
15 Now, Mr. Kusmuk was the assistant minister for police affairs and
16 tasks, and he -- in the second dash in his speech says:
17 "Determining the exact number of policemen who will be
18 exclusively engaged in tasks in their jurisdiction and determining the
19 number of reserve police for the sake of professional work. In
20 connection to that, it is necessary to determine Special Police Units for
21 work from the jurisdiction of the MUP."
22 We're going to look at a number of other meetings you attended
23 where the Special Police were discussed, but by July of 1992, were you
24 aware of any Special Police operating in the jurisdiction of the Trebinje
1 A. There was one unit called Special Police, but this was not under
2 the jurisdiction of the CSB, because the CSB wasn't formed as yet. This
3 was formed by the government of the SAO of Herzegovina, and there were a
4 couple of people who were active policemen. None from my station,
5 though, but the rest of the unit comprised criminals and who knows what
6 sort. They had camouflage uniforms, and they were called Special Unit,
7 but they had nothing to do with the security services centre. And Kusmuk
8 says here that it should be formed the way it was done before the war and
9 the way it's done -- or it's supposed to be done, and these are special
10 units of the police where it is exactly specified what their duties are
11 in peacetime and wartime.
12 Q. Right. Well, first of all, you say the CSB wasn't formed as
13 yet -- oh, sorry. I'm sorry.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry. Your Honours, there -- the two -- the two
15 terms that the witness used, and in Serbian they're -- they're quite
16 distinct, but they have been -- there is a distinction about the units of
17 the police that he talked just right now and the one which he was --
18 addressed before, and they're both translated as Special Police Units.
19 Now, I can deal with that during my cross-examination, but I just wanted
20 to put you on notice that there is a problem with -- with that. If you
21 allow me, I will deal with that. Thank you.
22 MS. KORNER: Well, I don't think we should leave it. We'll try
23 and sort it out now.
24 Q. Mr. Krulj, you're talking about a unit that you say was formed by
25 the government of the SAO. Can you -- what were they called?
1 A. Special Unit, Specijalna Jedinica of the police.
2 Q. And then you talked about another unit that was before the war,
3 which you also called Special Unit. Is it a different term in Serbian
4 from Specijalna?
5 A. I will try to explain very briefly. I will try. I worked on
6 these duties, and during the war in the law and also during the war --
7 before the war and during the war members of the Posebna Jedinica
8 comprised of members of regular and reserve forces from the stations.
9 These are younger people up to the age of 28, and they are used in order
10 to prevent arming in greater numbers, destruction of sabotage groups,
11 assistance when there's some natural catastrophes. During the war these
12 units in the station zone are engaged in combat areas in a specific area.
13 In later organisation, a Posebna Jedinica was established at the public
14 security centre. This unit is headed by an inspector from the police who
15 deals with preparations and defence and heads that unit. There is a unit
16 like that in every -- there are members of that unit from each
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the numbers of
19 the units from the different municipalities.
20 MS. KORNER:
21 Q. You're going too fast, Mr. Krulj. How many members are there
22 from each municipality?
23 A. It depends on the number of the police. There were five from
24 some municipalities, ten from others. These were men who were fit to
25 serve on complex assignments. These units still today are used, for
1 example, when there are high-risk football matches. Then the unit would
2 be assembled in Trebinje under the command of an inspector from the
4 This has nothing to do with the Specijalna Policija.
5 Q. Right. Now, I want to concentrate on what you called the
6 Specijalna Policija, the one that was performed by the SAO?
7 A. We have nothing to do with that police. We got a detachment of
8 the Specijalna Policija in June 1993. This was in the area of Trebinje,
9 and it was part of the police brigade, but we had no jurisdiction over
10 that unit.
11 Q. Yes. Sorry. I -- I'm not disputing for the moment anything. I
12 just want to find out a little bit more about this unit. This unit, you
13 say it was formed by the SAO. By who in the SAO?
14 A. I don't know. The government.
15 Q. Right. And who was the -- do you know who the head of the
16 government was of the SAO Herzegovina?
17 A. Vucurevic was the president and the prime minister was Bojovic.
18 I think it was Bojovic. I don't know the first name.
19 Q. And you said that this unit was formed of -- sorry, can we just
20 go back in LiveNote to -- what she actually said?
21 Right. There were a -- yes. You said there were a couple of
22 people who were active policemen, but the rest of the unit comprised
24 How -- how did you know that?
25 A. Well, I didn't say criminals. I said people who were on the
1 boundary of or on the boundary of the good side of the law. They could
2 be thugs.
3 I explained that earlier. When we worked after those events,
4 many of those in the civilian authority didn't have confidence in the MUP
5 because they believed that we were a remnant of the old system, and this
6 is where we had problems in our operation regardless of how professional
7 we were in the force.
8 Q. Yes, sorry, but how did you find out about these Special Police
9 that you say had two active policemen at least?
10 A. Well, every time I went to Trebinje I found out. Of course, this
11 unit was discussed, that it existed, that it went to assist here and
12 there in the front near Mostar or Dubrovnik. This is what I know. This
13 was some kind of informal conversation in the town. There was no
14 connection either in terms of logistics or establishment with the
15 Ministry of Internal Affairs. I didn't ask for their services and nobody
16 else did.
17 Q. No, but if it had two active policemen in it, how do you know it
18 had absolutely no connection with the Ministry of Internal Affairs? And
19 not too fast, please, Mr. Krulj, because the interpreters are having
21 A. Many members of the police left the police force at the time.
22 Some went to the army. Some were in this unit. The unit was not
23 accountable to anybody at the security centre. All I can say is that I
24 heard that it existed.
25 Q. Well --
1 A. And that it didn't exist that long.
2 Q. Sorry. Did you speak to Krsto Savic about this unit to find out
3 what he -- what connection, if any, he had with it?
4 A. I don't know. We did talk for sure, but I cannot remember. I
5 don't know the connection that he had with it. Perhaps the fact that it
6 was engaged in the Nevesinje front, that could be the only connection,
7 but we did talk about, and it was known that they were engaged at the
8 Trebinje and Dubrovnik
9 Q. All right. And you said -- lastly, you said that the CSB hadn't
10 been formed. But by July of 1992, there was a CSB at Trebinje, wasn't
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. And then finally, can we look at what you said, and
14 Mr. Planojevic. You spoke -- it's our page 18 of 29 in English, and I
15 think you'll find it -- sorry, that's one thing I haven't marked.
16 We see Mr. Nedjus [phoen] speaking, first of all, and then you.
17 A. What page?
18 Q. Yes. That's, unfortunately, one thing I failed to mark.
19 Did you find it? Could you just tell us the page so we get the
20 right part on the screen. I think it's -- yes, I see Mr. Nedjus now.
21 A. Sixteen.
22 Q. Sixteen. Thank you. When you spoke, Mr. Krulj, you directed,
23 according to the minutes, your speech towards the supply of personnel and
24 the operation of paramilitary formations. Can you now remember, and if
25 you can't, what you were actually -- what your topic of -- what you were
1 raising for discussion?
2 A. I already said that, that I was invited to the meeting, the topic
3 of which, as you can see, was that the level to which the centre was
4 manned was not even 10 per cent. The police stations also were suffering
5 from shortage of active police officers, people who are familiar with
6 police work. And I can see here that others said that we needed to
7 engage policemen who were refugees from Mostar or Stolac, not even from
8 our -- that we need to accept them in our region and replenish our ranks
9 in that way.
10 As far as paramilitary formations were concerned, I also said
11 that we didn't have any in the area of our municipality. There was a
12 group, local thugs. I don't say they were criminals. They tried to
13 engage units of that sort, but I prevented this. This happened in the
14 Mostar area, I think in Nevesinje. There was a small group. I just
15 reminded myself about that by reading the material. Berkovici. These
16 were units of some kind of volunteer forces who arrived without any kind
17 of command, any kind of equipment, and their only, their sole objective
18 was looting.
19 Q. All right. And you say you were able to prevent them, were you?
20 A. I did that in Ljubinje, yes.
21 Q. What happened in our municipalities, though, Bileca and Gacko,
22 for example?
23 A. I really don't know any details about that.
24 Q. All right. Well, I want to leave that meeting, thank you very
25 much, because other witnesses will talk about other matters. But may it
1 now be exhibited, Your Honour. That was 198, 65 ter 198?
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P160, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Very quickly could you have a look, please, at document behind
7 divider 10, which is 65 ter 992. First page in B/C/S, second page in
9 This is a report of the 20th of July.
10 MS. KORNER: Second page in English, please. It was along the
11 last meeting. Thanks. At the top. At the top of the page, please. No,
12 that's not -- that's the first -- no, no, it is. Third -- I do beg your
13 pardon. Third page in English. It's my fault. And second page in
14 B/C/S. Yes.
15 Q. At the top of the page there, it's the last sentence in the
17 MS. KORNER: Can we bring down -- you've got Trebinje back again,
18 please, in B/C/S, not Bijeljina. Yes.
19 Q. "An increasing volume of misinformation is affecting the
20 political situation in the centre's area by giving rise to anxiety and
21 concern amongst the population."
22 Do you -- do you know what that refers to?
23 A. I don't know. This is not an official matter for the police to
24 be assessing the political situation. Perhaps -- and it has to do with
25 the kind of misinformation that somebody of the -- from the politician
1 ranks sold the territory, that such and such forces captured a certain
3 The misinformation was spread by those who deserted from the
4 army, not by the media. I really cannot talk about the political
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... we have on
7 the -- on the screen is not exactly what Ms. Korner was asking for. I
8 think she was mentioned -- she asked for Trebinje, and we still have
9 Bijeljina on the screens. We can follow, but I think the accused should
10 be able to follow this as well. Thank you.
11 MS. KORNER: That's okay. I appreciate that. It should be --
12 no. I think that is Trebinje. It's the last paragraph that I'm looking
13 at, which should say what it say in English.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. I thought that was right.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, could you also assist the Chamber in
17 explaining or getting back to what is this document?
18 MS. KORNER: Oh, right. Yes. It's a -- well, perhaps we better
19 go back to the first page.
20 This is another daily report, I think.
21 Q. Is that right?
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: From whom to whom?
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Mr. Krulj, are you able to assist?
25 A. In handwriting it says "Bulletin of daily events" of the 20th of
1 July, 1992, and it's report number 70. But it doesn't look like a
2 bulletin to me, because there was a daily bulletin.
3 Q. Yes. It's headed "CSB Romanija-Birac."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And where was that?
6 A. And it's sorted by centres.
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. The Romanija-Birac CSB was headquartered in Sokolac.
9 Q. And was that CSB -- yes, I see. It's one the CSBs that came
10 within the SAO Herzegovina; is that right?
11 A. No, this is the CSB near Sarajevo
12 Services Centre existed for Eastern Herzegovina, but now we're talking
13 about the area around Sarajevo
14 Q. And have you seen one -- a document like this before?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, in fact we've got a number of them. If you go very quickly
17 to the next document, which is 65 ter 994. That's -- oh, we're still not
18 on that yet.
19 MS. KORNER: In English, please.
20 Q. That's number 72, the 22nd of July. And we've got a third one,
21 number 74, the 25th of July.
22 So you -- you don't know who prepared these documents? Don't
23 worry, Mr. Krulj, I'm not going to spend much more time on them.
24 A. I don't know. I don't know.
25 Q. All right.
1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I'm not at this stage proposing
2 to try and exhibit them.
3 Right. Can we come next, please, again fairly swiftly, I hope,
4 to a report of the 4th of August. Behind divider 14 for you, and it is
5 65 ter 324. Sorry. 324. Thank you.
6 Q. This is a report dated the 4th of August, 1992, addressed, is it
7 right, to the ministry of the interior in Sarajevo, subject, "Information
8 on the activities of the so-called paramilitary formations. Reference:
9 Your memo. Strictly confidential of the 19th of July." And then in
10 closing it says, "Chief of Centre, Krsto Savic," but is it stamped and
11 signed by Mr. Milorad Cuk?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay, I want very quickly, please, to look at the contents of
14 this report, page 3 out of 10 in the English. And page 3 in the B/C/S.
15 Now, this report was -- is written in -- in the Latin script,
16 isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were -- were both Latin and Cyrillic used during this period?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what it says in the first paragraph of this report is that on
21 the territory of the Ljubinje municipality no paramilitary groups ever
22 came. Was that -- was that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The next paragraph, however, describes other groups that
25 apparently came to other municipalities called the Seseljevci, the Beli
1 Orlovi, small groups of Arkanovci, and other self-proclaimed groups under
2 different names. First, Seseljevci, those were Seselj's men, calling
3 themselves, leaving aside whether he actually organised them?
4 A. I was informed about the security situation, so there would be a
5 group, say, from Berkovici, from Stolac municipality and they would call
6 themselves Arkan's men and it was a homeless person from that village who
7 had killed 30 men or something like that and they would just give
8 themselves those names, Seselj's men, Arkan's men. Whatever the term was
9 popular at the time, whatever term was bandied about. They would be
10 called Children Of Hell, Parachutists, White Eagles and so on, all sorts
11 of names. It says here on page 3.
12 Q. Yes, quite. Yes, exactly. If you look, please --
13 A. Samardzic.
14 Q. Yeah. You mentioned the -- the Berkovici incident. If you look,
15 please, at the third page in B/C/S and the second page in the -- so
16 sorry, page 5 because of the stamps.
17 We see that after the war conflicts have started on the territory
18 of Stolac a group about 20 members of Seseljevci came to Berkovici.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, again page 49, line 13. I don't believe
20 the witness said killed 30 men. I think he said something else. If you
21 can clarify with the witness.
22 MS. KORNER: Yes.
23 Q. You were talking about people calling themselves Arkan's men, and
24 you said it was a homeless person from that village who had killed 30
25 men. Did you say killed or did you say something different?
1 A. I didn't say anything of the sort. On page 3 you have that. In
2 mid-July in Berkovici, a group of five to six persons arrived and
3 introduced themselves as Arkan's men. They were led by Samardzic Jovo, a
4 person who was born in this area who is currently residing in Belgrade
5 They were issued with automatic weapons by the army and --
6 Q. Okay. Pause for a minute. We just need --
7 A. I didn't mention that somebody had killed somebody.
8 MS. KORNER: Can we -- we need to go to page 7 of 10 in the
9 English. What you've just been reading is it shown on the -- yeah. The
10 incident that's described there, Jovo Samardzic.
11 Q. And finally on this document. In the paragraph that talks about
12 the Seseljevci again, in Bileca that attacks the property, especially of
13 persons of Muslim nationality entering their homes, flats, taking their
14 cars away, looting.
15 Were -- at the meetings that you attended of the SJB chiefs in
16 the CSB, did you hear about this?
17 A. Yes, and you can see it here in this paragraph. It's written
19 Q. Yes, thank you very much. That's all I wanted to ask you about
20 that document?
21 MS. KORNER: May that be exhibited.
22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P161, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, it's time for a break, but before we
25 rise, the -- in terms of the matter that you raised this morning, there
1 are a number of steps that in our ruling we propose to be followed.
2 In proofing, the Prosecution would have or should have asked the
3 witness ST-111 whether he's familiar with any of the documents such as he
4 is unable to testify about them, and in which case such documents would
5 prima facie be inadmissible through that witness. And in an effort to
6 assist the registrar, the Prosecution shall provide the registrar and
7 copy to the Defence and the Chamber an electronic list of the documents
8 to which the witness can testify. And at the beginning of the witness's
9 testimony, using one or two examples from each of the three categories of
10 documents as you have identified them, the Prosecution will explain their
11 relevance to the particular case. Following that, the Chamber will then
12 mark for identification the documents to which the witness can testify,
13 and the registrar will thereafter circulate to the parties and the
14 Chamber an electronic list indicating the relevant MFI numbers, and the
15 Chamber will rule upon the admission into evidence of the documents after
16 the conclusion of cross-examination.
17 So as I said, there are a number of steps which we think should
18 simplify the management of this hundred --
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I don't think -- I can't
20 have made myself clear. Each and every one of the documents -- the list
21 has already been provided electronically to the Chamber and to the
22 Defence last Thursday, are documents to which the witness can speak of
23 his own knowledge.
24 JUDGE HALL: Oh. That has been done. So the 100 fall into that
1 MS. KORNER: I think 108 or whatever it is. Yes. Your Honor, I
2 don't personally propose to proof Mr. Djeric. Mr. Djeric is going
3 through the documents now, other than to say are there any documents
4 about which you can't speak? I take the -- I take the view that
5 Mr. Djeric is not somebody who ought to be treated as a witness to be
6 proofed. I'm simply going to ask him whether or not he is able to
7 identify the documents. But my understanding is that effectively he
8 appears on each and every one of these documents. So, therefore, that's
9 it. Therefore, what we're asking is whether we can have them all
10 admitted. They're all on our 65 ter list in advance and purely
11 concentrate on ones on which he may be able to give a further explanation
12 and/or are samples of, for example, the Assembly minutes.
13 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- Ms. Korner, the Chamber agrees with
14 devising a method to simplify bringing these documents in, but there are
15 two concerns that we have: One is that the -- although the proofing
16 exercise would have, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, satisfied
17 you as to the relevance of the documents, the Chamber, and that is why we
18 propose random examples of -- of each of the categories, to show us how
19 they're relevant. That's the first step. And then the second step is
20 that the -- we still need to hear from the -- whether the Defence has
21 any -- well, how the documents survive cross-examination. Let me put it
22 that way. Hence, the two steps of them being marked for identification,
23 but they will only be given full exhibit numbers at the end of
25 You think we have complicated matters for you.
1 MS. KORNER: Hmm. I do. I'm asking effectively if I can have
2 them all pre-marked in advance. Your Honours, can I assure you --
3 Mr. Djeric was the president of the government. It's hardly likely that
4 the documents are not relevant to an issue in this case. And they are on
5 the 64 ter list. Now, I heard what Mr. Zecevic said yesterday -- no,
6 last Thursday about the Bosnian Serb Assembly being the democratic
7 expression of people's opinions, but that's neither here nor there. He
8 may argue that. Our case is these are all highly relevant documents to
9 the -- if nothing else, the concept of joint criminal enterprise, because
10 the Assembly minutes that we have selected, and they're not all of them
11 by any stretch of the imagination, all deal with that aspect. And so
12 whether --
13 JUDGE HALL: May I suggest this, Ms. Korner, that during the
14 break that you look again at the transcript of what we have ruled and see
15 whether it is not as -- as unhelpful as your initial impression may lead
16 you to believe it is.
17 MS. KORNER: Certainly, Your Honour.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE HALL: And if you would have picked up what Judge Harhoff
20 said sotto voce this would be a template for future exercises, so we want
21 to be sure that we get it right and that everybody understands how we're
22 going to go about it.
23 Twenty minutes.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, before the witness enters, if I may
4 address your instruction which you gave just before we adjourned. If I
5 may, I'll talk in Serbian just to be very precise.
6 [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has a certain concern
7 with respect to the instruction you just gave us. If we understood your
8 instruction correctly, in the practical terms that would mean that
9 exhibits of the OTP would be marked for identification and then finally
10 admitted only after the completion of cross-examination. By doing so --
11 or, rather, they would be admitted on the basis of cross-examination.
12 And in a sense, that puts on the shoulder of the Defence a certain
13 obligation with respect to each of the documents tendered by the OTP in
14 this speedy manner. That would mean that we, the Defence, would need to
15 discuss each document with the witness in order to potentially prevent
16 that particular document from being admitted into evidence, which means
17 that the Defence would need about 12 documents for Djeric given the
18 number of documents.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The Defence would
20 need 12 days for Djeric given the number of documents.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's one aspect of the problem.
22 The other aspect is that the burden of proof is by doing so being shifted
23 to the Defence. That was the conclusion of our brief analysis done just
25 We have certain proposals in that respect as to how to resolve
1 this, but we really didn't have time during this short break to consult
2 amongst ourselves. We only had a brief conversation with our learned
3 friends from the Prosecution, but we would like to be given a very clear
4 instruction from the Trial Chamber, because this is a very complicated
5 situation. It requires time.
6 And thirdly, the entire trial would need to be organised in a
7 different way in that case given the amount of time that is needed for
8 the Prosecution to present its case and the time needed for Defence to
9 conduct its cross-examination.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, the purpose of this exercise is to save
12 time on all sides because of the large number of -- relatively large
13 number of documents with which we're dealing. The -- allowing the
14 Prosecution to exhibit the documents in a bundle would -- had the
15 Prosecution -- if the Prosecution is not permitted to examine -- to
16 exhibit the documents in a bundle, it seems to me that your apprehension
17 as to having to test the witness on each of the documents would be made
18 much more difficult without gainsaying the incidence of the burden of
19 proof in this exercise.
20 The Chamber's ruling that the documents having been all put in
21 and marked for -- for the sense of being marked for identification
22 doesn't shift the burden of proof to the Defence. All it does is to
23 permit the Defence to show in particular cases, because you would recall
24 that the first part of the ruling is that the -- without examining the
25 documents individually, the Prosecution would show generally from each of
1 the three batches their relevance. In a similar vein, the Defence would
2 have an opportunity to show how they should not be finally admitted as
3 exhibits that the Chamber should consider. But the -- I return to the
4 principle that the idea is to find a way to efficiently manage the
5 process through -- through the hearing of a large number of documents.
6 I trust I've made myself a little less unclear than I may have
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. It is pretty
9 clear to me what the position of the Trial Chamber is, and as far as I
10 was able to talk to my learned friend from the Prosecution, the interest
11 of the Defence is completely identical. All of us here have an identical
12 interest. It is in our interest to have this trial proceed as
13 efficiently as possible. This is beyond dispute.
14 What is a fact, though, is that we have truly a huge amount of
15 documents, a huge amount of documents on which the Prosecution relies and
16 the same applies to the Defence. We also rely on a huge number of
18 In this very peculiar situation, the Prosecution has explained
19 that they wish to prove via these documents, via a selection of these
20 documents, the existence of joint criminal enterprise, which is one of
21 the key matters in this trial.
22 On the other hand, if we are talking of a selection, the
23 Prosecution will select the documents that support their case, that
24 support their theory in this case, and then the Defence, in that case,
25 will be forced to introduce other documents which support our case, which
1 support our theory.
2 That is the substance of this system applied in this Tribunal.
3 And we will then find ourselves in a situation where the Defence will
4 need a huge amount of time to conduct cross-examination of witnesses who
5 will testify about these facts. I think that we have two such witnesses
6 coming this week.
7 This is why I'm not so sure that this instruction of yours is the
8 best method of accomplishing what all of us together want, and on the
9 basis of that, I believe that perhaps we need to give it some more
10 thought, and perhaps we should hear from all sides once both the
11 Prosecution and the Defence are a bit more prepared to discuss this to
12 see what other possibilities exist in order to ensure what all of us want
13 and what all of us have a right to, and to also have an efficient trial
14 at the same time.
15 I hope that the Trial Chamber has understood.
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, I'm a bit surprised by -- by this
17 objection of yours. The nature in which evidence is brought before this
18 Tribunal is no different from the nature and the method by which evidence
19 is brought in any other trial, including in your own jurisdiction. It
20 goes without saying that the Prosecution brings its evidence and the
21 Defence brings counter-evidence. I mean, that's the nature of these
23 As for these exhibits, here, too, what the Chamber proposes is no
24 different from what applies to every other piece of evidence. Of course
25 we will not admit into evidence anything without having given the Defence
1 the chance to counter it. And this is why we say that Mrs. Korner can
2 bring this whole bunch of documents, 108 documents, and we will MFI them,
3 and if the Defence has specific reasons why it wishes to challenge some
4 of them, it can do so, and then we will, after the completion of the
5 cross-examination, then take the position of whether those particularly
6 challenged documents should also come into evidence. But otherwise,
7 we'll have to accept that they will be admitted, and if, then, when you
8 come to the Defence case you wish to bring evidence to show the contrary
9 of what these documents tend to show, then that's your duty to do it at
10 that time. But I don't think it's -- it makes sense to -- to seek to go
11 into each of the 108 documents now and try to challenge them. We have
12 looked at the documents, and most of them seem to us to be official
13 documents coming out from various institutions at the time, minutes and
14 so on, and it's difficult to challenge their existence. So you'll have
15 to accept the fact that they will be admitted, unless for some of them, I
16 suppose a few of them, you can really prove that they cannot be admitted
17 because they are unauthorised or for some other reason that goes to their
18 authenticity. That's what we will give you a chance to do, to challenge
19 their authenticity, their truthfulness, their reliability, and if you can
20 do that then we won't admit them, but otherwise we will.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, a very basic question which may --
22 perhaps maybe that this is much ado about nothing. Are you right now in
23 a position to say whether -- no, I'll rephrase.
24 Do you know already right now that if we go through all those
25 documents with this witness that you won't object to any of those
1 documents be tendered as an exhibit through this witness? Perhaps you
2 already know that as the Prosecutor says this is so obvious that this
3 witness knows about all those documents, so if we go through them all
4 they will be admitted without any problem. If you know that that's the
5 case, then perhaps we are discussing for nothing.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think that
7 you have understood me well. I understood the ruling by the Trial
8 Chamber and what His Honour the Presiding Judge said about the
9 instruction that on the basis of random samples of a couple of documents
10 we would accept the entire category of documents, say 50 of them in a
11 batch from different sessions and so on.
12 I apologise. I see that the Trial Chamber's --
13 JUDGE HALL: If I may interrupt you at this point, and it may
14 have been I didn't fully explain myself. The question of the random
15 sampling is the Prosecution showing -- showing us prima facie the
16 relevance, and basically we have, as Judge Delvoie has said, is
17 essentially the nature of the documents is that we have virtually passed
18 that stage.
19 You would have -- because these documents would have all been
20 provided to the Defence as part of the preliminary exercise, you would
21 know what -- you would already -- or ought to already know what these
22 documents are, so that you aren't limited to challenging the samples that
23 the Prosecution chooses to use. The cross-examination being at large,
24 you have before you the whole 108 on which they rely.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely where the problem
1 lies, Your Honours.
2 This means -- I understood you well. We fully understood each
4 These documents would be marked for identification, and then
5 after the completion of cross-examination, the Trial Chamber would decide
6 which of them would become exhibits and which wouldn't, which means that,
7 of course, the Defence is not only going to work on the basis of the
8 documents presented by the Prosecution, but it has to respond to all 108
9 documents. So these are not documents where we challenge their validity,
10 authenticity, and so on. These are documents of the Presidency,
11 documents of the government, documents of the Assembly, and so on.
12 What is the problem here is the conclusion, the selection of
13 these documents which is conducted by the Prosecution, because by
14 selecting these documents, they, in our view, wish to convince the
15 Chamber, to make the Chamber reach a wrong conclusion, wrong in our
16 opinion. And in order for us to prevent that, we will be forced to
17 challenge each of these documents in order to prove that our theory, our
18 case, is stronger and that these documents, as a matter of fact, do not
19 prove the existence of joint criminal enterprise but, rather, something
20 else that is part of our case.
21 This is why I'm afraid that this would bring us into a situation
22 where the Defence would need a huge amount of time to cross-examine
23 witnesses who are from this category.
24 I agree with Judge Harhoff in the sense that this is not
25 something completely new or something that does not exist in our local
1 jurisdictions. What is really particular in relation to this Tribunal is
2 that we have a huge amount of documents here. We have documents from
3 four different state organs over approximately one period of time. So
4 this is a huge amount of material. And this is where the problem arises.
5 Not because of the way these documents are introduced, not because of the
6 character of this trial, but because of the simple fact that we're
7 dealing with an enormous amount of documents.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, to understand you well, let me ask
9 you two questions. First question is: Would it suit you better if we
10 accepted -- if the Trial Chamber accepted all those documents as exhibits
11 before cross-examination rather than after? That's my first question.
12 Second question is: In your opinion, is the only alternative
13 that we have to spend 12 hearing days with the witness on each and every
14 of these documents? You said 12 hearing days, but -- not by you but by
15 the Prosecutor. Is that for you the only alternative, the only good way
16 to do it?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely not. Absolutely not,
18 Your Honours. What I'm trying to do is point out to the Trial Chamber
19 possible repercussions of your instruction, possible consequences of your
20 instruction. It is possible that this could arise. I do not consider
21 this an alternative, and I do not consider this to be a good alternative,
22 because otherwise it would take us four years to complete this trial.
23 It is quite clear that it suits us better to have this document
24 marked for identification and then admitted after cross-examination.
25 This is beyond dispute. What I was trying to achieve by this submission
1 is to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to the fact that this could
2 produce certain negative consequences, and this is why I propose that we
3 get together with the OTP to see whether there is an alternative method
4 by which we would achieve what the Trial Chamber wishes and what all of
5 us wish without having such a situation where the interests of the
6 Defence would be threatened.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I -- can I add to this? You saw
8 my reaction you gave to the ruling. The problem here is not so much the
9 quantity of documents, although I hear what Judge Harhoff says, but the
10 time limits that have been imposed upon this trial. On earlier trials
11 that I did here, we did not have these time limits, and we went through
12 every document.
13 It is not possible. All the documents on this list, I am pretty
14 certain but I'm having checked and certainly all the minutes from the
15 national security council, the Bosnian Serb Assembly, and the government
16 have been admitted already in other trials of the Bosnian Serb
17 leadership, which is why I say it seems to me that it is a complete waste
18 of time to go through every document to see whether they're relevant and
19 admissible. They are clearly relevant. We would submit they are clearly
21 What we wish to concentrate on with Mr. Djeric is those documents
22 which do not fall into those three categories but which are more
23 directives from him. And those are the ones we need to concentrate on
24 and which, if you've read his testimony in Krajisnik, you will see there
25 are complications because he says one thing on one page and another thing
1 on another page about it.
2 If the documents are all admitted, then Mr. Zecevic in
3 cross-examination can put forward the documents that he actually wants to
4 bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber and Mr. Djeric, and it would
5 save a lot of time. The other alternative is that we agree, the Defence
6 and the Prosecution, that these documents are all relevant and should be
7 admitted. And I'm afraid that I know Judge Harhoff is very keen on no
8 documents, if at all possible, but this is a document case.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I'm sorry, Mrs. Korner, at no point have I said
10 that I don't want to have any documents presented in this case.
11 The Chamber's position is clear. We have ruled that from a
12 preliminary view these 108 documents seem to us to be admissible. Now,
13 should the Defence be able to knock out some of them for reasons of
14 authenticity, they are free to do so. This is why we MFI them to begin
15 with. And then the Defence may show that some of them are not authentic
16 or otherwise suffer from formal defects which speak to their not being
18 Now, to Mr. Zecevic, I would say that if the documents that have
19 been selected by the Prosecution do show that a joint criminal enterprise
20 existed, and if you have other documents that show that such an
21 enterprise did not exist, then the nature of these proceedings is such
22 that the Prosecution indeed is -- is required to put forward the
23 documents that speak to the existence of an enterprise, and you're
24 equally required to put forward the documents that do not. And I don't
25 see that you have to challenge, necessarily, each and every one of the
1 108 documents to prove your point. It would appear to me that you
2 should, rather, then bring forward the documents that show the opposite
3 results, so the prima facie determination in respect of the 108 documents
4 is that we agree that they are reliable and relevant, but we allow for
5 the possibility that some of them may be knocked off for formal reasons,
6 and you can then deal with that if you have any reason to do so. But
7 otherwise, I think if you wish to put to this witness documents that show
8 that a joint criminal enterprise did not exist, then you should do so.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think I heard from both sides that you would
11 prefer to reach an agreement, Prosecutor and Defence. If you can do that
12 by tomorrow and the agreement has the results that we all are looking
13 for, not to have 12 hearing days spent on these documents, then it's
14 fine. If you can't, we must go on and the rule stands. Is that a good
15 way of doing it?
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll try and get together this
17 afternoon and deal with this.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, in the 40 minutes before the break,
20 would I remind you that of those 40 minutes, you have 30 minutes left in
21 terms of your 2 hour and 30 minutes indication of time you would spend
22 with this witness.
23 The other matter that I would announce now is a housekeeping
24 matter. For reasons, of course, external to this Chamber, when we take
25 the adjournment at 1.45, we will resume in this courtroom at 2.15
1 tomorrow, not 9.00 in the morning. Thank you.
2 Could the witness return to the stand, please.
3 MS. KORNER: Can I just ask -- yes, are we going back to mornings
4 after that? So we've got 2.15 plus the 9.00?
5 JUDGE HALL: As far as we know. I commented coming in, I take
6 these things one day at a time.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, because of the time limit I'm going to
9 gallop through the next lot of exhibits and only ask him to identify
10 certain items so that I can get them admitted.
11 Q. Mr. Krulj, I'm afraid we don't have much time left, and I'm sorry
12 you've been kept waiting.
13 MS. KORNER: Can we have up, and speed of getting these documents
14 on the screen would assist as well, please, document number 65 ter 302.
15 Q. And you'll find that behind divider 16, Mr. Krulj.
16 A. [In English] Okay.
17 Q. This is a report from the CSB Trebinje, headed "The assessment of
18 the political and security situation in the territory of Trebinje
19 Don't bother to turn the page up on the screen. On the last page
20 it's dated the 19th of August, 1992.
21 MS. KORNER: Can we go to the second page in the English, please.
22 And regrettably in the B/C/S it's got these ridiculous pages of
23 Mr. O'Donnell's stamp.
24 Q. And can you find there the paragraph activities on the
25 disarmament of -- yes. It's page 3 in the B/C/S, and it's the second
1 paragraph on that page.
2 "Activities on the disarmament of extreme Muslims are continuing
3 in other municipalities. The result of this action is a massive moving
4 out of Muslims from Gacko, Nevesinje, Bileca, Ljubinje, and partially
5 from Trebinje."
6 Now, leaving aside whether it was the activities of disarmament
7 of extreme Muslims, is that right, there was a massive moving out of
8 Muslims from these municipalities?
9 A. Yes. I don't know how the numbers were from Ljubinje, but I
10 already said that civilian authorities agree that there were no victims
11 in Ljubinje, that they had agreed with the members of the Muslim people
12 whether they wanted to go to Mostar or Montenegro, some of them went.
13 They handed over their property, handed the tractors, et cetera, to the
14 neighbours and to the -- for the safekeeping of the commission that was
15 in charge of that, and as far as I know, everything was returned to them
16 after the war.
17 Q. All right. That's in your municipality, Ljubinje. What about
18 the others? Was there a massive moving out from Gacko, Nevesinje,
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honours may that be made
22 an exhibit please.
23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P162, Your Honours.
25 MS. KORNER: Right.
1 Q. Can you move next, please, to the exhibit -- 65 ter 225. You'll
2 find it behind divider 17, Mr. Krulj, in your binder.
3 This is a document which is the summary from a MUP management
4 working group held on the 20th of August, 1992, in Trebinje.
5 If we go to the second page. We can see that this meeting was
6 attended by again the great and the good. Mico Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic and
7 the like. Mr. Cuk if we go to the bottom of the page, attended from
8 Trebinje, and I think you also attended this meeting, didn't you, with
9 other chiefs of the SJBs?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I want to go, please, to page 6 in the English and page 4 in the
12 B/C/S, a paragraph that begins "Considering the situation in the field."
13 MS. KORNER: No, it's 161. Page 4, not page 3, please. I'm
14 sorry, it's ERN number 161. Thank you. And sorry, in the English it's
15 page 6. Oh, yes, sorry. The -- yes.
16 Q. Do you see the paragraph: "Considering the situation in the
17 field and the need for timely action, he believes ..." and I suppose we
18 should say this is Mr. Savic speaking.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. " ... that a Special Police unit in the Trebinje CSB base is
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So it wrote appear that by August there was no Special Police
24 Brigade set up in -- in Trebinje.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Right. And again, I don't think I've got enough time to take
2 you -- oh, yes. No. Can we go to one more paragraph. It's page 11 in
3 the English, and it's page -- sorry. Yes. Because we skipped, I think,
4 where you spoke. Sorry, I haven't marked that. It's my fault.
5 Can we just have the English. At the bottom of the page. Right.
6 I'm not sure where that is in the B/C/S. I'm sorry, it's my
7 fault, but I haven't got time for you to find it, and I appreciate
8 Mr. Stanisic may not be able to see it but I'll say it in English.
9 After the minister explained the reasoning behind the order to
10 disband all special units and CSBs and SJBs he explained the principle of
11 the special unit of the MUP police detachment and the issue was further
12 explained by the detachment's commander Milenko Karisik.
13 Now, did you know -- Mr. Karisik was present at the meeting? Did
14 you know him from before?
15 A. A little bit. While I worked in Mostar, I would meet him at the
16 MUP in Sarajevo
17 Q. All right.
18 A. I met him once or twice.
19 Q. And what did you understand was going to happen to police special
20 units that had been in SJBs and CSBs?
21 A. I never called that Specijalna Jedinica, Posebna Jedinica of the
22 police, but this was required by the brigade because of the paramilitary
23 formations and unrest that occurred in some of the municipalities in
24 Eastern Herzegovina
25 formed for the Herzegovina
1 Q. All right. Was there any explanation given at this meeting why,
2 however, there should be one unified Special Police as opposed to the
3 different groups which had been attached to the CSBs or the SJBs?
4 A. This was more or less a question of how they called them at the
5 station, but it had to do with one of them having to be under the command
6 of the commander of the brigade at the location where they were
7 headquartered. This is how I understood it anyway.
8 Q. All right. And finally just to note at page 13 of the B/C/S and
9 page 18 of the English, you actually spoke.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Thank you.
12 MS. KORNER: Could that please be admitted.
13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Again very quickly --
16 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. As Exhibit P163.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. All right. Very quickly could we look at 37 -- 65 ter 373, and
19 behind divider 18 for you, Mr. Krulj.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. This is a document dated the 28th of the 8th, 1992, apparently
22 signed and stamped by Mico Stanisic, addressed to the CSBs in Sarajevo
23 Bijeljina, and Trebinje, informing the CSBs that commission for the OSCE,
24 in fact -- no, it's called the CSCE then, were going to visit prisons in
25 Pale, Bijeljina, Trebinje, Bileca and Foca. All I want to know is were
1 you informed by Mr. Stanisic or somebody else that there was this
2 commission coming?
3 A. No.
4 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours in those circumstances obviously
5 a document is going to be admitted at some stage, I mean, we can either
6 have it admitted as an exhibit now or I'll mark it for identification,
7 because this witness wasn't told about it.
8 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P164 marked for identification, Your
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. Okay, next document then very quickly, which is 65 ter 1270. And
13 behind your divider 19, Mr. Krulj.
14 This is a report which was received on the 22nd of August, 1992
15 and talks about two, effectively inspectors, Mr. Avlijas and Goran Saric
16 visiting Trebinje, Gacko, and Bileca.
17 Did you ever meet these gentlemen?
18 A. Yes, Goran Saric later, yes.
19 Q. All right. And it says about halfway down the page in their
21 "We have talked to the head of Bileca SJB Goran Vuckovic [sic]."
22 Firstly, did you know him? Vujovic, sorry.
23 A. Yes, I did. He was the chief in Bileca. I knew him from
25 Q. And were you aware as he apparently told the inspectors that 140
1 Muslims were accommodated in the SJB premises?
2 A. I didn't know that, no. I knew that there were some people there
3 but not how many. It says 140 here.
4 Q. All right. And the inspectors pointed out that ten people in
5 this group were over 60 and said that they should be released.
6 If -- if as they were there for safety reasons, what was the
7 relevance, as far as you can see, of them being over 60?
8 A. I don't know. I'm seeing this document for the first time.
9 Q. All right.
10 MS. KORNER: Can that be marked for identification, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, so marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P165 marked for identification, Your
14 MS. KORNER: All right.
15 Q. Now, we've got another one of these bulletins which I won't
16 trouble you with. It can come in.
17 Yes. Can you look, please, swiftly at 65 ter 2762. Oh, sorry,
18 behind divider 21, please, for you, Mr. Krulj.
19 A. Very well.
20 Q. And this is the 17th of September, 1992. Sorry, it's dated the
21 9th of October. And is this a document that appears to be sent by fax or
22 teleprinter or whatever it was called in those days?
23 A. It's a document that is the usual way that was -- we communicated
24 in, and it's called a dispatch, and it was sent by the teleprinter.
25 Q. Right. And if we just look at the first page. Yes, sorry. It's
1 the second page in B/C/S, and it's the third page in English.
2 We see there that the SJB Ljubinje, there were seven criminal
3 offences of which five were solved, a hundred and three criminal reports,
4 and that CSB Trebinje, the SNB sector, submitted four criminal reports
5 for war crimes against 138 persons in the killing of a group of citizens
6 of Serbian nationality, and Foca submitted a criminal report for genocide
7 against unknown perpetrators.
8 No reports of any crimes apparently committed against Muslims or
9 Croats in this period. Is that right?
10 A. I haven't read the whole text, but if it's not mentioned in the
11 text then there are none, no.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honours, may that be admitted, please.
13 It's on our 65 ter list.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P166, Your Honours.
16 MS. KORNER: All right.
17 Q. I want to move now, then, please -- well, actually, very quickly
18 to look at one document that you personally dealt with against -- so it's
19 10061, and you'll find it behind divider 23.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. And this is a criminal report dated the 30th of November, 1994
22 against a large number of Muslims and Croats for apparently crimes
23 committed in Capljina but going back to 1992; is that right? And it's
24 signed, I think, by you on the last page.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And perhaps we can just deal with it this way: Was this your
2 continuing investigations, and you by then were chief of the CSB in
3 Bijeljina, into war crimes committed against Serbs?
4 A. These are war crimes perpetrated against Serbs in Capljina.
5 There were a number of camps. The biggest one was Dretelj near Capljina,
6 and these persons took part in the arrest of Serbs in that area over a
7 long period of time. This is a longer document. Everything was
8 documented, and probably the request at the time was to send this to the
9 Prosecutor's office and there was a deadline provided. So it was a long
10 process. People were searched for -- throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina
11 to provide statements, also in Bijeljina, who -- these were witnesses who
12 were in Bijeljina at the time, but they had to be found wherever they
13 were at the time. So it wasn't a simple task.
14 Q. Did you ever, that you can recall, because we don't have any
15 documents, conduct investigations in 1994 into war crimes committed
16 against Croats or Muslims?
17 A. I think that there were some, but I don't remember how many.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, again I'm sorry, it's not on our
19 65 ter list, but it is relevant. It's signed by this witness and it goes
20 toward the general picture of the witness we had from last week about
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I have no objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P167.
25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
1 Q. Right. Can we now turn to the last two documents that I'm going
2 to have to ask you about very quickly, unfortunately. You will find --
3 it's 65 ter 2118. You will find it behind divider 28 in your binder
4 Mr. Krulj, and it's a document you've been through on a number of
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. It's a handwritten diary. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And it contains notes taken by the author of various meetings,
10 many of which when you went through it, you were able to say both here
11 and the state court, you attended; is that right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And I think your position is that you are unable to say with any
14 certainty who the author is.
15 A. I cannot.
16 Q. But maybe the best way is to look at just one of the meetings.
17 It starts at page 10 of the English, and it's at page -- there are no
18 page numbers on it in B/C/S, but it's 0297-1403. Page 10 in the B/C/S.
19 Thank you very much.
20 A. 403 are the last digits.
21 Q. Exactly. And you'll see there at 1200 hours on the 26th of June,
22 meeting with the centre employees and station chiefs. And then
23 informed -- I need to go further down, there on the English. And there
24 we see Ljubinje.
25 I'm not sure what -- what does the "UKT/USW/ link" refer to?
1 A. UKT which means that the phones were not operating, it was via
2 radio station via the transmitter. And in Nevesinje as well there was no
3 communications so the information went via the centre for information.
4 That's what I explained earlier.
5 Q. There are further notes of the meeting and then it says "points"
6 if we go over, please, page 05 in the B/C/S -- 405 -- oh, yes, sorry,
7 page 12 in the B/C/S and page 12 and 13. That's points for the meeting.
8 Page 12. Right. And then can we go to the next page in each the B/C/S
9 and the English.
10 The author of this diary is saying: "I have briefly presented
11 the role and task of the police department so that you'd find it easier
12 to understand the importance of the daily co-operation," et cetera.
13 "It is necessary to respect the principle of subordination. I
14 will take the liberty of asking you SJ [sic] chiefs to make the chiefs of
15 stations and other SJ [sic] managers responsible," et cetera.
16 This is the author of the diary speaking. Who would have been in
17 a position at the CSB Trebinje to be making that sort of statement?
18 A. What the page number, please?
19 Q. In the B/C/S it's at page 0297-1406, and in the English it's page
21 A. 403 are the last digits.
22 Q. No, 406.
23 A. I have read it.
24 Q. Yes. I just want to know who -- whoever wrote this diary was
25 clearly in a position to be giving instructions or advice to the chiefs
1 of the SJBs. Who would that be?
2 A. Well, you keep insisting on Mr. Cuk, but this could have been
3 Krsto. It could have been Krsto speaking about how police department
4 functions, because it is not clear to me.
5 Look at Cuk's signature a bit earlier. I know that Cuk never
6 wrote in Latin script, and he died, and I have absolutely no proof that
7 it was him, and I state this with full responsibility.
8 Q. And when you say, "I absolutely insist," we're asking you who
9 would have been in a position -- whoever's writing this diary is saying,
10 "I have briefly presented the roles of the police department." If it
11 wasn't Mr. Savic, and you know his writing -- it wasn't his writing this,
12 was it?
13 A. If anybody spoke on behalf of the police department, then, yes,
14 Cuk was acting chief, but I cannot say that this is his -- that this is
15 his handwriting.
16 Q. All right. And as you say, he's dead. When did he die?
17 A. He died in 1995.
18 Q. All right.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I simply don't have time to take him
20 through all the meetings that he attended in this, but can I have this
21 now exhibited as an exhibit.
22 JUDGE HALL: Exhibited.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit Number --
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I object, because the witness -- there is --
1 the idea is that this was prepared by late Mr. Cuk, and the witness just
2 confirmed that he wasn't using the Latinic script but the Cyrillic. So I
3 have a problem in accepting that this document can be introduced through
4 this witness.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I can go through every single meeting
6 that he attended and he can confirm what was said, but I simply don't
7 have enough time.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I sympathise with that.
9 MS. KORNER: If I have to take more time I will take more time.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Is that likely to change the witness's opinion
11 about who is the author?
12 MS. KORNER: No, but it doesn't matter who the author is. It
13 doesn't actually matter whether it's Mr. Cuk or anybody else who the
14 author is. The point is, he can confirm, as Mr. Zecevic knows because
15 he's been through the interview and the evidence, that the meetings took
16 place and what was said was said.
17 Your Honours, that's one of the problems about these matters.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, if I understood you well, the reason
20 of your objection is that the witness said that, "This part I briefly
21 presented the role and the task of the police department." The
22 Prosecutor asked, "Who was speaking here?" The witness said it was
23 probably not Mr. Cuk. Cuk, that's the name? Okay. So that's why you
24 object to the fact that this should be tendered -- should be exhibited.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, the whole document -- the theory of
1 the Prosecution is that this is a Cuk -- Mr. Cuk's diary, handwritten
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness says Mr. Cuk -- it might be Mr. Cuk or
5 Mr. Krsto Savic or somebody else, but as far as I know, Mr. Cuk never
6 wrote Latinic script but Cyrillic script and that's why I don't think
7 it's his diary," and that's the basis of my objection, and I don't think
8 there is enough nexus between this --
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: I misunderstood.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay, I'm sorry.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I say -- I can take -- your own
12 rules say that we can get them in if a witness can speak to the contents.
13 I say it doesn't matter -- ha'pworth who wrote the diary whether it was
14 Cuk or somebody else or Krsto Savic, although clearly it wasn't. This
15 witness I can take him through the rest of the meetings of which there
16 are numerous ones which he attended.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, this is not about the contents, it's
18 about the authenticity.
19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's the whole point. One, we
20 can show where we recovered this document from. Two, this witness can
21 say, yes, these meetings happened, and, yes, I was there and that's what
22 was discussed."
23 There is no -- yes, I'll remind you of -- of Rule 4 of your own
24 guidelines. There is no rule which prohibits the admission into evidence
25 of documents merely because their alleged source was not called to
1 testify. Likewise, the fact that a document has neither a signature nor
2 a stamp is not in itself a reason to find the document is not authentic."
3 We haven't got the actual records from a lot of these meetings
4 except in one case where you can see where the two correlate which is in
5 the diary and which is in an actual -- where we have the minutes. It's
6 one of the few where we managed to recover the minutes.
7 Your Honours, this document is important. If I have to do that
8 then I will have to take more time out of our 200 hours or whatever's
9 left to take the witness through it.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mrs. Korner, you can spend the rest of your time
11 discussing the contents of this. We sit with the problem that its
12 authenticity has been challenged by the Defence. For all we know, this
13 diary could have been produced by, say, someone in the OTP. I mean --
14 MS. KORNER: I hope Your Honour is not making that a serious
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, no. No, no. Come on, please. As an example
17 of the problem that we're facing, I don't see any difficulty in admitting
18 it for its contents, but there is a serious problem about its
19 authenticity, because it could be false. We have no reason to believe it
20 is, but it could, and so this is why the furthest we can go is to MFI it,
21 I think. And if at a later point you have a witness who can testify to
22 the fact that --
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, there is no other witness --
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- Mr. Cuk did in fact sometimes write in Latin,
25 then that will be one factor weighing against --
1 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, can I make this absolutely clear.
2 There is no other witness we are calling or indeed can I say that we've
3 tried to find who can attest to the contents of this document.
4 This witness may, as I understand it, have some handwriting of
5 Mr. Cuk available, but he hasn't, I don't think, brought it with him, so
6 we can't even do that.
7 We can prove and can call evidence to show how we acquired this
8 document, but as to what's in the document, only this witness can testify
9 to it. We have no other witness coming, if I can put it that way,
10 linkage witness coming from this area. And much as we'd like to put
11 Mr. Savic in the box, at the moment we haven't because he's doing his --
12 serving his imprisonment, we haven't been able to approach him.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I would be very brief. The
14 Prosecution know its case. If this is the only witness, they should have
15 proposed it as a 92 ter witness with the statement where they show him
16 the document page by page, page by page, and he confirms the document.
17 MS. KORNER: It's in the interview [overlapping speakers].
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Yeah. If that is the issue with this witness.
19 Now, they haven't, and now we are -- we have a problem. I don't have a
20 problem with my colleague having additional time. I understand fully the
21 need for -- for her that she explores this matter further. I don't have
22 a problem with that. I'm just saying that we could have saved the time
23 if this was presented to the witness before and if the witness gives
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the witness has dealt with this in the
1 interview he had with the OTP and in his evidence to the state court.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something? May I say
4 something? May I address you?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the witness wants to say something, Your
7 JUDGE HALL: Excuse me. I was confused as to where the voice --
8 it was the witness who was speaking.
9 Yes. We're about to take a break, but you wish to say something,
10 Mr. Krulj. Please go ahead.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am with -- I went over this
12 entire package at the state prosecutor's office in Sarajevo with the
13 prosecutor, and for the second time I did it with the OTP investigators,
14 also in Sarajevo
15 office that I cannot confirm that this is Cuk's handwriting. He gave me
16 three sheets. He made copies of three pages from this diary and gave it
17 to me, and I asked my colleagues who used to work with me in Trebinje
18 centre. I asked the chief of crime prevention police who used to work
19 with Cuk whether this was Cuk's handwriting. I was interested in it
20 myself. And the man said to me that he didn't know. So I cannot
21 confirm. We can go over as many pages as you want, but I cannot confirm
22 that this is the diary of the late Mr. Cuk.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you very much, Mr. Krulj.
24 It is pastime for the adjournment. We are going to rule on this
25 by tomorrow morning -- tomorrow afternoon when we resume.
1 To the witness, I would point out that your evidence -- your
2 testimony's not complete, and because of that, you are -- we are about to
3 take an adjournment and we will resume in this courtroom tomorrow
4 afternoon at 2.15. In the -- during the -- until you're released as a
5 witness, you cannot communicate with counsel from either side, nor can
6 you discuss your testimony with anybody outside of the courtroom. You
7 can talk about anything else except your testimony here. Do understand?
8 Yes. So we --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
10 JUDGE HALL: So we resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon in this
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day
14 of October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.