1 Wednesday, 4 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The accused Zupljanin not present]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon to all, and as usual, may we begin by
9 taking the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
11 Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Cvijetic,
13 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Slobodan Zecevic appearing for Stanisic Defence.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Igor Pantelic for
16 Zupljanin Defence. Thank you.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. If there are no preliminary -- if there
18 are no preliminary matters.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: By all means, Ms. Korner.
20 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, there are, because I don't know
21 whether you've seen the e-mails that were exchanged about the timing.
22 Your Honours, I understand the Defence want an hour and a half. We've
23 been given two documents that appear to have absolutely nothing to do
24 with the sole issue for which in any event they need Your Honours' leave
25 to re-cross examine and the only matter in which they can re-cross
1 examine is something that arose out of Your Honours' questions.
2 Otherwise, they have no right to continue cross-examination.
3 There is one issue on which we understand that Mr. Cvijetic
4 wishes to -- to re-cross examine and that is the answer given to the last
5 question by Judge Delvoie. In our submission, no more than at the
6 absolute maximum, really, 30 minutes ought to be given and ten should be
7 sufficient to challenge that assertion if that's what they wish to do.
8 So, Your Honour, there certainly should be some ruling from Your
9 Honours on that.
10 JUDGE HALL: Let me hear from Mr. Zecevic, but of course it goes
11 without saying that hour and a half is out of the question.
12 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I have another preliminary
14 matter that concerns other witnesses for this week, so maybe we can --
15 maybe first Mr. Cvijetic can address the issue which was raised by
16 Ms. Korner, and then after that if -- if it pleases the Court, I might
17 address the issue pertaining to the other witnesses this week. Thank
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, before I hear from you, perhaps in
20 order for you to articulate your response to Ms. Korner, it may be useful
21 if we return to where we were yesterday at the adjournment, and I would
22 invite His Honour Judge Delvoie to -- to return to the -- that question
23 which elicited the answer which in turn precipitated the present
24 applications before the Court. So perhaps you should reserve your -- any
25 response until you have heard Judge Delvoie's continuation.
1 Thank you. Could we have the witness back in, please.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 WITNESS: BRANKO DJERIC [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Djeric, good afternoon to you. I remind you,
6 sir, that you're still on your oath.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
8 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Djeric, good afternoon. As a result of my
10 question yesterday and your first answer, I ask you, and I'll read the
12 "Mr. Djeric, you say now that ministers took --" I suppose it's
13 part, "took part in crime. What do you mean by that?"
14 And your answer was as follows:
15 "Information reached me to the effect that crime was made
16 possible primarily by the participation of these two ministers in those
17 crimes, Minister Stanisic and Minister Mandic."
18 At that moment it was 7.00 and we had to stop. So I would like
19 to ask you now to elaborate that answer a little bit. What do you mean
20 by participation of those two ministers in those -- in those crimes?
21 What kind of participations, and what kind of crimes?
22 A. The prevalent opinion was that in crime -- first of all, these
23 two ministers were participating, and Minister Mandic, the justice
24 minister, was the key person involved in the criminal acts, and the
25 minister of the interior was covering for him or standing or backing him.
1 So it was in that sense that I also talked about this matter at the
2 Assembly sessions in that period. So all of this could have been read in
3 the material. This was a topic of the debates.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what crimes are you referring to?
5 A. I'm talking about crime, crime in the sense of illegal
6 transports, acquiring profit, that kind of thing, involvement in certain
7 jobs or operations that they were involved with. They were involved in
8 illegal business transactions. This is the opinion, and these kind of
9 things were reaching me, especially vis-a-vis Serbia.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Did this kind of involvement, as you say, have
11 anything to do with the paramilitary units and what they were doing?
12 A. I don't know. It had to do with their work here, you know, when
13 they were managing the ministry. We had already noted that they were not
14 there, that they were ignoring the government, they were not attending
15 the meetings. So in that sense the question was put where are the
16 people? Where are these people.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Mr. Cvijetic, what is your application?
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I'm going to respond
20 to Ms. Korner's suggestion to make the Trial Chamber's work easier and to
21 say the time that I asked for, the hour and a half, was a result of
22 extreme caution because I was awaiting instructions from my client and
23 the development of the situation in the courtroom, but after a statement
24 like this by the witness, I will not be requiring longer than ten
25 minutes. So I want to be clear about that right at the outset.
1 Mr. Djeric --
2 JUDGE HALL: And your application is for ten minutes to --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. So your application is to have ten minutes
5 to examine -- to re-cross examine the witness on the questions that the
6 Chamber asks. That is your application.
7 MS. KORNER: On that issue and that issue alone. No other issue.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, the topic is
9 crime and criminal matters, so I'm not going to go beyond that topic, and
10 I know that I cannot.
11 MS. KORNER: No. The issue is whether or not you want to ask
12 further questions about any allegation that your client was involved not
13 in war crimes but effectively in black marketeering.
14 JUDGE HALL: We agree that you have ten minutes, Mr. Cvijetic --
15 for that purpose, Mr. Cvijetic.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, I cannot but repeat a previous
18 question from yesterday. All of these suspicions of yours in relation to
19 crimes allegedly committed by Mr. Stanisic, I'm not going to deal with
20 Mr. Mandic, I'm interested only in Mr. Stanisic.
21 Did you mention in the Assembly on the 23rd and the 24th of
22 November when you spoke about his participation in crimes in a general
23 way, did you stand up and tell him what you were thinking of exactly when
24 he asked you to do that? Did you come, stand up and tell him to his face
25 exactly what you meant? I still don't know what you're talking about, so
1 can you be more specific, sir?
2 A. The whole time we're talking about the problems that we had, and
3 I have been telling you about the problems.
4 Q. Well, just answer the questions, just answer the question.
5 A. I cannot answer the question. You're not letting me.
6 Q. Just answer the question. In the Assembly did specifically put
7 that question?
8 A. I spoke about this at the Assembly sessions, in the government.
9 Wherever I went I talked about this matter, and I always started on this
10 topic, and you can see that from all the documents.
11 Q. Okay. I'm looking at this document from the Assembly and you
12 didn't begin that topic at all.
13 A. Well, I submitted my resignation at that Assembly session
14 specifically because of all the crimes that were going on. But please
15 don't. I apologise, but you are simply burdened with the fact that the
16 prime minister had problems with the president of the republic, so that's
17 the problem. I did have problems. We did have differences of opinion,
18 but that has nothing to do with the work of the ministers in the
19 government. We did have different concepts. I mean, that is not
21 Q. All right. But that has nothing to do with what I'm asking you.
22 I have to then try to guess what you are trying to say. You did not
23 complete your answer about the TAS affair. How did that end?
24 A. Well, it ended because the government insisted that the
25 perpetrators be prosecuted. So why don't you ask the minister that you
1 are defending whether that matter was prosecuted and whether the minister
2 of justice was also called to responsibility because of that.
3 Q. The chief of the station and his deputy, when the inspectors
4 established that this affair was going on, was that person and his deputy
5 arrested and prosecuted according to the law? Do you know about that or
7 A. Well, this is slightly -- this is a larger quantity of vehicles,
8 the reputation of the factory, our interest to preserve the integrity of
9 the factory and its reputation, so we consulted at all sides in a way to
10 deal with the matter that would help us to preserve our relationship with
11 the factory.
12 Q. You didn't respond and you didn't tell us whether the chief of
13 the police and the deputy were arrested and handed over to the
14 prosecutor's office by the inspectors from the police station?
15 A. What are you -- what are you talking about, the TAS?
16 Q. Yes, the TAS.
17 A. Well, yes, we're talking about 2.300 vehicles there in that TAS
19 Q. Mr. Djeric, the topic of this cross-examination is not that. So
20 I cannot deal with the factor -- with the fact that the inspectors also
21 looked at your role in the whole matter.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last part of
23 the question and the answer of the witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, you would have been able to
25 find in the material where the ministry --
1 JUDGE HALL: The -- could we have the question and answer again,
2 and I would remind counsel and the witness that the interpreters need an
3 interval between question and answer in order to interpret fairly and
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Here's the question. Mr. Djeric the problem is that the
7 inspectors of the Ministry of the Interior apparently took the order by
8 Minister Mico Stanisic too seriously, and besides, among their own ranks,
9 meaning the chief of the police and the deputy, the affair also began to
10 touch you. So in that did you -- and so that is also part of the
12 A. Well, everything is really well known, sir. All of these things
13 are just stories. I am the one who asked for all of these matters to be
14 resolved. I'm the only official who actually resigned, you understand.
15 Why didn't any of the others resign? Because I insisted that rules be
16 respected, that there be no interference in the political process and so
17 on and so forth. Do you know that the government --
18 Q. All right. Can I put a question, I only have ten minutes. With
19 your resignation, Mr. Djeric, you found a smart way of preventing
20 yourself from being investigated, because with your resignation you also
21 withdrew the ministers.
22 A. No. These are your stories. You have no arguments. This only
23 tells about you and your seriousness and the way you understand things.
24 I am the one who fought to have matters clarified in all possible ways,
25 and the government.
1 Q. All right. Can I put my next question to you?
2 A. The government made steps and persisted in prosecuting all kinds
3 of perpetrators of all kinds of crimes. Not only these kinds of crimes
4 but those that have to do war crimes and violation of human rights and so
5 on and so forth. I was the one who worked on all of that and asked for
7 Q. Mr. Djeric, you mentioned proof or exhibits, and the Defence has
8 proof about the chief of police, the deputy, and for all the others, much
9 substantial proof, and we will introduce that proof, but now I have to
10 put a question to you because my time is running out.
11 Do you know that because of such rumours that had to do with
12 Mr. Stanisic, a state commission was formed to investigate that? Do you
13 know what the results of the work of that commission are? Just wait.
14 Just wait, please.
15 Go ahead. You can answer now. Do you know? Do you know?
16 A. Well, these commissions simply were formed in the places where
17 there was protection available, where the president was and so on, where
18 there was actually protection for the people who in my opinion were
19 responsible for the violations of the law.
20 Q. Do you know and can you qualify the Assembly in the same way as
21 the highest organ of power?
22 A. I've said openly what I had to say. No one --
23 Q. Sir, you don't want to answer my question.
24 A. Well, no, it's not that I don't want to. I've said what I wanted
25 to say. I've stated the arguments. The Assembly had the opportunity
1 to -- to deny what my claims were.
2 Q. You are evading the answer. Just be patient. So the Assembly
3 formed a commission, the commission completed its work, and its findings
4 were that there were no illegal actions on behalf of Mr. Stanisic and
5 elected him again as minister of the interior in 1994.
6 A. Sir.
7 Q. Well, this is the question I'm asking you. Do you know that the
8 Assembly did this?
9 A. Sir, this is a question of procedure. This happened after I
10 resigned. As to how Stanisic again came to that same post I'm not going
11 to actually deal with any of that.
12 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right. All right.
14 Mr. Djeric, thank you very much.
15 I have no further questions.
16 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, anything arising?
17 MS. KORNER: Absolutely, positively, 100 per cent not.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 Mr. Djeric, thank you for the days you've spent with us --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You are now released, and we wish you a
22 safe journey home. Thank you, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE HALL: We -- sorry.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that brings us to the documents.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if I may interrupt. I know
4 Mr. Zecevic is relating to another witness to come in the future so I
5 think it may be preferable that we deal with this now, the documents.
6 Your Honours, I'm asking for admissions of all the documents on
7 our list as put up as exhibits.
8 JUDGE HALL: The -- your motion is already a matter of record.
9 MS. KORNER: I didn't make --
10 JUDGE HALL: It tells of the documents --
11 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] it simply gives a list, yes.
12 JUDGE HALL: And the Chamber hasn't forgotten it. The Chamber is
13 in the process of deciding how it will -- how it will deliver its ruling,
14 but it hasn't forgotten.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, I know that, Your Honour, but if there are --
16 with the greatest of respect, we're building up a library of unresolved
17 issues in this case, and with the greatest -- with the exception of the
18 intercepts, which I understand there is certainly a legal argument
19 about ...
20 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I appreciate the intercepts are still
22 a matter obviously of something you have to rule on, but outside of the
23 intercepts there's been absolutely no challenge to any of the other
24 documents, their authenticity, or anything. So --
25 JUDGE HALL: We haven't lost sight of that, Ms. Korner.
1 MS. KORNER: Well, I made my submissions, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, you have something, because
3 Mr. Zecevic, has -- he alerted us that he has a matter to raise. What is
4 your --
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is in relation
6 to Ms. Korner's submission. Would you allow me? I need just a very
7 short period of time, perhaps between two breaks.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] This has to do with the documents
10 and exhibits that I mentioned and that we tendered into evidence through
11 my cross-examination. We will be submitting a written submission where
12 we ask for your ruling to have those documents admitted into evidence as
13 well, and I just wanted to announce this.
14 JUDGE HALL: Of course our ruling will abide receipt of your
15 written submissions and any response from the other side.
16 MS. KORNER: No, no, no. I think this is all a bit confusing. I
17 think Mr. Cvijetic means he wants the documents he asked about put into
18 evidence. I don't think he's at all objecting to any of ours.
19 Is that right?
20 JUDGE HALL: I didn't understand that he was.
21 MS. KORNER: No, and --
22 JUDGE HALL: He will correct me if I misheard him, but what I
23 understood his intervention to be is that he wasn't dealing with your
24 application, your extant application which we addressed a few minutes
25 ago. He was talking about different documents.
1 Isn't that correct, Mr. Cvijetic?
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I was referring to the documents
3 and exhibits that I mentioned during cross-examination. I was referring
4 to those documents. I hope that I'm clear enough now.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, at several points during your
7 cross-examination of Professor Djeric the Judges asked themselves whether
8 you would wish to have all these documents introduced into evidence while
9 you were putting them to the witness, and we were surprised that you
10 didn't seek to tender them into evidence while the chance was there. You
11 are perfectly aware of the facts that the normal procedure is that any
12 party who wishes to have documents tendered into evidence and admitted
13 into evidence can do so through a witness or through a bar table motion,
14 and the bar table motion option applies only where documents cannot be
15 introduced in any other manner, that is to say, through a witness. So
16 now I really think that you are late with your motion, that you come
17 after the witness has left the courtroom and has been dismissed, and now
18 you wish to have your documents admitted. It's irregular, and I don't
19 have my procedural guidelines in front of me so I can't refer to them,
20 but I would imagine that we have a rule in the guidelines that exactly
21 says -- says this, that --
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I interrupt --
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: No.
24 MS. KORNER: -- because --
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: No. Please can I just finish. So if we are
1 going to be handling this with caution, we may entertain your motion, but
2 I want to be very clear that from now on and in the future, evidence --
3 documents or evidence has to be tendered through witnesses, and if they
4 cannot be tendered through a witness then we will have to go into the
5 option of tendering evidence through a bar table motion but that, as
6 we've said many times before, that has to be the exception. We do not
7 wish to end up at the end of the trial with a huge load of documents in a
8 bar table motion.
9 You may reply, and then we will give the floor to Ms. Korner.
10 Oh --
11 MS. KORNER: I was going to rely on behalf of Mr. Cvijetic for a
12 change and support him.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think we should let him speak for himself.
14 MS. KORNER: But I can explain, because he tried to introduce
15 them on the day you were absent, and I got up and said, Just a moment, we
16 can't get any of our documents in at the moment. They are all floating,
17 as I said, in an amorphous mass above the court. It surely cannot be
18 right the Defence should get theirs in, and that's why he's left it until
19 the end, and I hope that assists him.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours? With all due
21 respect, I have to remind the Chamber and Ms. Korner. I started offering
22 documents for exhibits from number one, and then Ms. Korner protested,
23 asking that there be a single ruling by the Trial Chamber that would
24 include me and her, and namely that it would be done at the end based on
25 the list submitted. So that was an objection by the OTP, and the Chamber
1 granted their objection, and this is why I was waiting for an opportunity
2 to do it at the end.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic and Mrs. Korner, please be
4 reasonable and do it our way. The understanding the Chamber has of the
5 Prosecution's motion for admission into evidence of the 108 documents was
6 a motion that was filed in advance of the witness coming, and the reason
7 why the Prosecution, if I understand it correctly, used this approach was
8 that the Prosecution was dealing with a very large number of documents,
9 108 documents altogether, and rather than having to go through all of
10 these 108 documents in order to have them introduced and admitted into
11 evidence through this witness, the Prosecution put the whole thing to the
12 Chamber in advance of the witness's arrival and asked for a procedure by
13 which these documents could be tendered and admitted into evidence.
14 The Chamber is yet to rule on this matter, but we gave a
15 preliminary indication of what we had in mind by saying that the
16 Prosecution could seek to subdivide the 108 documents into various
17 categories that sort of were coherent and then put a couple of documents
18 from each of the groups to the witness so as to give an indication to the
19 Chamber what was in the rest of each of those groups, and that was then
20 the procedure that was followed by the Prosecution. But this is and was
21 completely different from the approach that you are now trying to take,
22 namely by first introducing a document to the witness and then when the
23 witness has been dismissed then coming forward with your motion to
24 request admission.
25 So if we can settle this issue, Mr. Cvijetic, by saying that we
1 will then hear your motion out of caution, but that we remind both
2 parties that in the future documents that are sought admitted into
3 evidence must be presented and must be -- must be sought to be admitted
4 while the witness is here, and only in cases where we are dealing with a
5 complex situation such as the introduction of a very large number of
6 documents will we then require a motion in advance of the witness so as
7 to deal with it. But now this is the first time that we have had this
8 situation with one of the parties seeking to have admitted a large number
9 of documents. We got the motion in advance. The witness came here, and
10 we will hand down our decision on that motion very shortly, either later
11 today or maybe early tomorrow morning.
12 Does that conclude this matter?
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: If I may be of assistance, Your Honour, the
14 reference is page 2430 from the transcript of the 2nd of November. If
15 that can assist, that's where Ms. Korner and Mr. Cvijetic had the
16 exchange initially, the day you were away, Your Honour. I just give you
17 that for reference.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 Mr. Zecevic.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm not -- I'm not sure. I need
21 to -- just a short address on this. I think the matter was ruled by the
22 Trial Chamber that at the end we will be given the opportunity to offer
23 the document. That is the reference Mr. O'Sullivan has given. So that's
24 why I don't really understand the argument right now, but I will -- I
25 will not dwell into that, because Mr. Cvijetic was leading the witness,
1 and Ms. Korner is here. I just wanted to -- to mention this.
2 Now, Your Honours, we have -- we have a completely different
3 matter which I need to address. The matter concerns one of the witnesses
4 which is coming this -- this week.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: This matter concerns a situation with the witness
9 which comes this week, namely the witness ST-156. In the course of
10 yesterday, we received the proofing note from our colleagues of -- of the
11 record of the proofing session that they had with this witness. Now, the
12 proofing note is five pages long and contains a number of data, events,
13 names, and issues which are not contained in the 65 ter summary of this
15 Now, the guidelines which you ordered, Your Honours, the
16 guideline 25, say, at least I understand it, that the party seeking to --
17 to introduce evidence in the cases of 92 ter witnesses, the evidence
18 which are beyond the scope of the statements or transcripts which are
19 provided in the package, must ask leave from the Trial Chamber to do so.
20 That is -- that is -- that was my understanding. So as to amend the
21 65 ter list and only then be able to -- to introduce these -- these new
23 Now, if -- if even in a case where -- where the Prosecution would
24 do in accordance with your guidelines, which they didn't in this case,
25 I'm afraid, then it would create a problem for Defence, because we are
1 not put on notice, and we -- we find just 24 hours before that the
2 witness now changes his statement significantly, and then the -- then
3 there is no way that the Defence can be ready to cross-examine the
4 witness, because eventually we will have to conduct at least some kind of
5 investigation on the new -- on the new data which is provided in this
6 proofing note.
7 So I'm just opening up this -- this issue in a timely manner,
8 because we received it yesterday. We tried to -- to jointly resolve the
9 issue between -- between the parties in order that we find a compromise
10 how to do it, but we're unfortunately unable, and -- and ultimately that
11 is why we're -- that's why I'm addressing the Trial Chamber, and we need
12 to -- to clarify the situation, how are we going to do with this witness
13 and the future cases which I'm sure will happen.
14 Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic. We have heard what you've
16 said, and we'll process the -- how to deal with this, as you say, which
17 is likely to be a recurring problem.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That is exactly -- that is exactly the case, Your
19 Honour, but I'm sure we would need to know the -- the clarification by
20 the Trial Chamber, because I appreciate that the -- that the Office of
21 the Prosecutor has some scheduling problems as a result of that, or might
22 have some scheduling problems, and also we might have to, I don't know,
23 adapt our -- our resources in order to deal with that problem. So we
24 would appreciate if some clarification could be given by Trial Chamber as
25 soon as possible, because the witness is in line and is waiting here.
1 Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I -- may I just assist on this
4 particular witness who is here and expecting to testify tomorrow? And
5 he's been here, I believe, since Saturday I'm told. Yeah.
6 What happened was he testified in the state court. That
7 testimony was disclosed to the Defence, I understand, in December of last
8 year. When he came here, the lawyer who was going to be leading his
9 evidence was obviously, because that wasn't contained in the 92 ter
10 package, was obviously clarifying with him the matters that were raised
11 in the Belgrade
12 longer proofing note than would normally happen.
13 I understand, because obviously I haven't seen the witness
14 myself, that there are some matters in this which are new, but there are
15 largely those that have already been contained in that transcript, and
16 that's the situation. And the lawyer concerned decided to amalgamate
17 everything into one long note, which is why it's much longer than the
18 normal proofing note.
19 So that's -- that's the situation with this witness. It's only
20 really a question of whether Your Honours or the Defence will agree that
21 they are in a position to deal with it given that they've known most of
22 the information since December last year for tomorrow, or the witness
23 will have to be sent away to come back again.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I just want to very briefly say this:
25 The only notice document, according to the rules and the procedure in
1 this Tribunal and the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, is the 65 ter list,
2 9th of June, 2009, nothing else despite the fact that when some other
3 documents were -- were disclosed to us.
4 Nobody expects the Defence to read every single document which
5 has been disclosed, because it's a million of documents. There is no way
6 that -- that the Defence of five people over this period of time can do
7 that. So it's quite logical.
8 What we are -- what we have as our frame are the 65 ter notices
9 which are provided by our opponents, and that is what we concentrate on.
10 Now, this -- in this case, in this case, the 65 ter notice is 9th
11 of June, 2009, and it -- and it contains -- and the package contains only
12 his statement and his statement only. In the meantime, I don't dispute
13 that -- that we were disclosed the documents from the state court, but,
14 Your Honours, that's a number of witnesses in that particular case. It's
15 more than 600 pages, I believe, the whole -- the whole case file.
16 Now, what is -- what has happened with this proofing note is that
17 his statement and the 65 ter summary, which was given to us, is expanded
18 beyond the contents of the 65 ter summary and his statement, and that is
19 creating a problem. And I think the guideline 25 is exactly for these
20 reasons, inside your order on guidelines and production of evidence and
21 presentation of evidence. Thank you.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if it assists, for what it's worth,
23 and of course it's a matter of cost, the witness can return next provided
24 he's given a fixed date. But of course, he's been here for a number of
25 days now.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I say that Your Honours may want
3 to rise because we have to get protective measures put in place for the
4 next witness anyhow, and it would certainly assist if we rise.
5 --- Break taken at 3.12 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 3.41 p.m.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Cvijetic, you asked for admission of the
8 documents that you put to the witness ST-111, Professor Djeric, and we
9 have discussed it in the break. I should start out by apologising for
10 not having been aware of your motion that was put forward on Monday to
11 have the documents admitted and to Mrs. Korner's response, but I think
12 the simplest and the safest way to go about it is for you to actually
13 file a written motion in which you spell out exactly which documents you
14 wish to have admitted now, because as I recall, it wasn't all of the
15 documents that you presented to Professor Djeric that you actually wanted
16 to have admitted into evidence but only most of them, but there were a
17 few, as I recall, a few documents which I understood that you would not
18 be seeking to have tendered into evidence. But be that as it may, I
19 think it's clearer and simpler and therefore safer if you put forward a
20 written motion of exactly which documents you wish to have admitted, and
21 that will also allow for the Prosecution to have their comments
23 So that's the decision as far as your motion for admission into
24 he have of the documents present to Dr. Djeric.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. My
1 intention was to do exactly as you have decided.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Addressing the issue that Mr. Zecevic
3 raised, the question that we have of the Prosecution and depending on the
4 answer that the Prosecution offers, it may mean that the problem as far
5 as this particular witness and this case is concerned disappears, and
6 that is this: The expanded -- I'm trying to avoid the use of the word
7 "evidence" or "testimony." The expanded information which has been --
8 which is apparent from the proofing note, does the Prosecution intend to
9 rely on that new information?
10 That's a preliminary question that we have.
11 MS. PIDWELL: Good afternoon, Your Honours. It is the intention
12 of the Prosecution to rely on at least some of the information that is
13 contained in that proofing note, and it was intended to lead that
14 evidence through the witness as -- when he came in the time that is
15 allowed for this -- as a 92 ter witness. So we -- it was the intention
16 of the Prosecution to ask for a slightly extended amount of time, say 40,
17 45 minutes instead of 30 for this witness to bring in the relevant
18 additional points that were brought out in the proofing session.
19 JUDGE HALL: Well, apart from the problem that you anticipate
20 about time, Ms. Pidwell, I don't know whether you addressed your mind to
21 the other consequence of that decision which the Prosecution would wish
22 to take, namely that -- well, first of all, to state the obvious about
23 the principle of the Defence not being caught by surprise, is the issue
24 that unless I am missing something, and perhaps you may be able to
25 persuade me that I have it all wrong, that this -- whether this witness
1 can be a 92 ter witness if you're relying on that new information or
2 whether he would not have to revert to being a viva voce witness.
3 MS. PIDWELL: My understanding, Your Honours, is that the -- the
4 new information that has been brought -- brought out from this witness is
5 simply an expansion of the details that are in his statement or prior
6 testimony. So this is the first time the Prosecution has met with this
7 witness for this case, and in proofing the issues that are relevant to
8 our indictment have been -- have been addressed with this witness, and so
9 specific pieces of information which we consider relevant for the
10 Prosecution case have come to light since the statement was made to the
11 Office of the Prosecutor a number of years ago, well before -- not
12 specifically for the purposes of this case.
13 It's going to be an ongoing issue, I think, because when we proof
14 a witness -- for example, the next witness -- one of the next witnesses
15 in the next couple of days has -- gave a statement in 1998 to the Office
16 of the Prosecutor and has never testified before this Tribunal. He is a
17 92 ter witness, and the information that came out in his proofing is --
18 was, again, to provide more detail of the issues that were in his
19 statement, but the more detail was extracted because it's relevant to the
20 issue in this indictment, police issues, issues in 1992 specifically in
21 our indictment.
22 So that is the practice of the Prosecution which will continue,
23 and so it's a matter that we do need to address, because it's a matter
24 that will probably be relevant to all of the 92 -- well, a significant
25 amount of the 92 ter witnesses.
1 JUDGE HALL: But have you applied your mind to the last
2 observation that I made that the -- calling a witness under the
3 provisions of 92 ter is not as -- is more limited than it appears the
4 Prosecution seems to appreciate. Did you take on board that observation
5 in formulating your response?
6 MS. PIDWELL: The Prosecution has tried to streamline its case to
7 enable as many witnesses as possible who have testified before or who
8 have given statements before to -- to testify pursuant to rule 92 ter
9 because of the time constraints, and the limited time that we have in
10 terms of the half hour or 45 minutes we have to present the evidence of
11 the witness will be designed to tailor their package to the issues in
12 this case.
13 We hope we can do that in that time-frame, and in most of the
14 cases we think we can, but there may be some witnesses who when we see
15 them for the first time a few days before they testify will give us more
16 details on something upon a question that the proofing attorney has
17 raised with them which we consider will assist Your Honours in
18 considering the matters before you, and those -- in those cases, they
19 will go in the proofing note, and we will adduce that evidence as a
20 fine-tuning, if you'd like, of the statement for the purposes of this
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: How do you suggest the Defence to be compensated
23 for the lack of opportunity to have time to prepare for their
24 cross-examination in these instances? I think Mr. Zecevic's point is
25 very reasonable, and in the best of worlds you would have contacted this
1 witness before you submitted your 65 ter list and have another statement,
2 a more recent statement, made available, had that statement -- and have
3 that statement included in the 65 ter list so that we could rely on it
4 for the purpose of introducing this witness and these witnesses as 92 ter
6 So that leaves basically the choice for the Chamber that we can
7 either ask you to proceed exclusively on the basis of the statements as
8 they are now to the exclusion of the new evidence that has come in, or to
9 have new statements made and then considerable time given to the Defence
10 to prepare for their cross-examination. But my question was, how do
11 you -- what do you suggest we do to compensate the Defence?
12 MS. PIDWELL: Well, I guess the issue is time and timings, and
13 the Prosecution brings these witnesses up and proofs them in a -- in a
14 time -- in a limited time-frame in accordance with the practice of the
15 Tribunal in consultation with the Victims and Witnesses Section. We
16 disclose the proofing note electronically as soon as it's done, and for
17 example there's usually a good at least 24 hours from the time that the
18 proofing note is finished to when the witness -- that's probably the
19 minimum, but there may be cases when -- when -- if new evidence comes out
20 of the -- the witness, we could shuffle the witness like we -- the
21 proposal for this one that Mr. Zecevic is raising now to accommodate the
22 timing issue. And if the Trial Chamber is happy for us to say if the
23 witness is scheduled for Monday and he's proofed over the weekend and the
24 attorney realises that this is one such occasion, we could shuffle him to
25 further down in the week. So we can do that. We can try and accommodate
1 the Defence to give them a period of time to consider this new
2 information or expanded information it if arises. We're hoping it won't
3 arise too often, but I'm saying this is probably not a limited situation
4 where it will arise because of the practice and the way that we are only
5 able to see these witnesses shortly before they testify.
6 In an ideal world we would have met them all last year and got
7 new statements and had them tailored for this case, but that's not been
8 an opportunity that we've been given.
9 JUDGE HALL: So what do you propose to do in the instant case?
10 Let's not solve problems that haven't arisen yet.
11 MS. PIDWELL: The witness is available to come back next week and
12 has indicated he can if we give him an exact date and time.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be heard on the matter, Your Honour.
14 The -- the rule says that the party calling the witness,
15 according to the 92 ter, may ask the 65 ter document notice to be amended
16 only upon showing good cause.
17 Your Honours, this is the rule, and it has to be implemented. So
18 what am I -- what am I saying? It concerns me a lot. I know it's not
19 Ms. Pidwell and the whole Prosecution team which has been only recently
20 appointed to do this case, but there has been five years of pre-trial
21 phase in this case.
22 The Prosecution knows their witnesses. They -- it would be only
23 at least expected that they investigate and talk to their witnesses
24 before filing a pre-trial brief. That is what I expected they're doing,
25 not that they're using the 1998 statement of the witness, and nobody for
1 10 or 11 years has ever contacted that witness, he never testified, and
2 now he comes over here with who knows what, a million of new information
3 and we're provided in a proofing note like 24, 48 hours before. This is
4 simply not something that can be understood as a good cause, as showing
5 of a good cause. Definitely, Your Honours.
6 The problem is that in this particular case, Ms. Korner just use
7 as a counter-argument. She said, "We put Defence on notice as early as
8 December 2008 that the witness has testified in the state court." But we
9 were -- we were disclosed these documents, but I would assume that
10 somebody from the -- from the calling party, after knowing that -- that
11 the witness took stand in the state court would go over to him and
12 discuss with him what did he say over there. Did he change his
13 statement? And not to do that just 24 hours before he appears in the
15 I don't really see, after hearing all the -- all the submissions
16 from the -- from the Prosecution, that the Prosecution is actually
17 showing good cause to amend the 65 ter summary -- or 65 ter list.
18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, may I suggest this --
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
20 JUDGE HALL: -- that the problem that you have identified from
21 when you first raised it before the break is one which to my mind doesn't
22 admit of any clear or easy solutions. For example, Ms. Pidwell has
23 indicated the problems that the Prosecution has in terms of the limited
24 time available to them to see a witness, notwithstanding how much time
25 may have passed.
1 May I suggest that you reserve your views on the broader question
2 and we limit ourselves to deciding what your response is to her
3 application that this witness be stood down until next week.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, the -- that is why I wanted to
5 address the -- the actual problem with this witness, but I just wanted
6 this as a foundation. I say, we say, that there is no -- there is no
7 basis in the rules. I mean, the Prosecution can only ask a leave to
8 amend the 65 ter and then provide the proofing note of the witness, ask
9 the proofing note to be admitted into evidence. Yeah, because they are
10 offering the proofing note to be admitted into evidence, and we say it
11 cannot be done. It -- they have to ask leave and show good cause to the
12 Trial Chamber in order that the Trial Chamber would grant them the leave
13 to -- to admit the proofing note into the evidence. That is -- that is
14 the problem.
15 If the proofing note is not in the evidence, then probably we
16 can -- we can deal, if we're given some time we can deal with the
17 witness, because that might be the situation, that the witness comes in
18 and we are not put on notice, nor is -- nor is the Office of the
19 Prosecution, and he changes his -- or he expands his information that he
20 gives, and then that would be the situation where we would be dealing
21 with that witness. Probably asking for more time to prepare the
22 cross-examination based on these new -- new material or evidence which --
23 the information which the witness has given, or ask -- ask the Trial
24 Chamber not to -- not to adopt the testimony of the witness into evidence
25 based on -- on this.
1 So therefore, I hope I have -- I have clarified what is our
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Not exactly. The Presiding Judge asked you if
4 you would go along with calling this witness some time next week, I
5 understand, as a 92 witness on the basis of the proofing note.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: On the basis of proofing note --
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: -- being admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. That was her question.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: I think the question is premature for me, because
11 first of all, according to the rules the Prosecution must seek leave from
12 you to amend 65 ter list with the proofing note, and upon showing good
13 cause the Trial Chamber will grant that. In that -- at that point if
14 you -- if the Trial Chamber would grant that proofing note to be admitted
15 into evidence, then -- then that is a question for me would I be ready to
16 cross-examine the witness in -- in four days.
17 If the Trial Chamber is saying to me unofficially, so to speak,
18 that that is the intention of the Trial Chamber, I might be able to give
19 you an answer, but I would need -- I would seek some clarification in
20 that respect.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: But that is what we are -- that is what the
22 Prosecution is asking, and we're asking your opinion. What do you --
23 would you object? Because if you can say that in this instance, "Okay,
24 we'll go along with it but that goes for this instance only and then
25 we'll have a find a general solution to the rule -- to the problem, then
1 we might go along with that. If on the other hand you say that, you
2 know, if the proofing note goes in, then you need at least, I don't know,
3 two or three weeks to prepare then the situation is different.
4 So we're hearing you out on this issue.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay, Your Honours, let me be very specific. We
6 object to the proofing note being admitted in the -- into evidence,
7 because we say that this is a violation of the rules and there is no good
8 cause shown to amend the 65 ter list. That is the situation. And we
9 will object to such an application from the Office of the Prosecutor now
10 and in all other cases unless, as I say, the good cause is shown.
11 Because that is the rule, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I can't go around the
13 Thank you.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I just have two very short points.
15 Firstly on the issue of the admissibility of the proofing note, there was
16 and interchange between myself and Mr. Zecevic on the 1st of October on
17 this issue when we first encountered whether the proofing note should be
18 tendered as part of the 92 package or not with our -- one of our first
19 92 ter witnesses, and it was on Mr. Zecevic's invitation that the
20 proofing note was actually tendered as part of the package. You may
21 recall the Prosecution actually thought it wasn't appropriate because of
22 the circumstances of how the proofing note is taken and it's not a signed
23 statement and all those other things, and we resolved the issue with the
24 proofing note being tendered as part of the package with Your Honours
25 noting that it's a proofing note not a statement and that you would give
1 it the weight that Your Honours considered appropriate in the
2 circumstances, and that's how we resolved it back on the day. We've
3 proceeded on that basis since then, and I just wanted to point that out.
4 And secondly, I just wanted to bring Your Honours' attention to
5 the actual wording of Rule 92 ter, which says that:
6 "The Trial Chamber may admit in whole or in part the evidence of
7 a witness in the form of the written statement or prior testimony."
8 So there is the ability to enable the Prosecution in
9 circumstances to lead additional evidence, additional to the evidence
10 that you have said is part of the package pursuant to that rule.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, the point of the matter is that this
12 proofing note expands, expands beyond the contents of the statements
13 and -- and transcripts of the witness, expands information beyond that.
14 So that is -- that is why we're objecting to this proofing note being
15 admitted. And the point is that the 65 ter is the notice document, and
16 we need to be put on notice in a -- that is the whole point of the
17 65 ter, the pre-trial brief, the 65 ter summaries. And the standing of
18 the jurisprudence of this Tribunal is that the party seeking evidence
19 must know its case before the case starts, and therefore, that is why we
20 are providing the notice to the Prosecution. As well, the Prosecution is
21 providing notice to us. And in that notice, these -- this information is
22 not contained, and that is the basis our objection. And the 65 ter
23 notice can only be amended upon showing a good cause and with the leave
24 of the Trial Chamber. That's the whole point.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: The difficulty is that -- you may remain seated
2 if you -- but the difficulty is that in principle this witness should
3 then be called as a viva voce witness, really, because now new evidence
4 is brought into the picture and -- and, you know, if we were to include
5 that new information, we would have to go beyond the scope of
6 Rule 92 ter. So either the Chamber should ask the Prosecution to recall
7 and relabel the witness as to become a viva voce witness, or we would
8 have to allow the Prosecution sufficient time to prepare new statements
9 based on the evidence given by this witness before the court in Belgrade
10 and then have this new statement introduced as an expanded basis for
11 introduction of the witness's testimony through 92 ter. And I'm not sure
12 which is the fastest of these two options.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, but both of these options -- both of
14 these ...
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes. I took it -- I took it to be understood
17 that in any case, the Prosecution would have to seek leave for any of
18 these changes, but --
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, because again, even if they
20 change it to viva voce, we are still not on notice according to 65 ter,
21 because we received the summary of 65 ter for -- whether the witness is
22 92 ter or viva voce. We are giving the summary by the Prosecution, and
23 it says this witness will talk about indictment, paragraphs this and
24 that, charges this and that, and in essence will talk about this and this
25 is the notice. Now the witness comes over here and he says, "Well, no.
1 I'm not talking about the army. I'm talking about the police. I'm
2 talking about," I don't know, "the accused and so on." This is simply --
3 this is simply not in accordance with the rule and the jurisprudence of
4 this Tribunal, and therefore it is -- both of these options are in
5 violation of 65 ter again, which you offered, Your Honour, with all due
7 MS. PIDWELL: [Overlapping speakers] I wonder if Mr. Zecevic
8 could tell me which part of Rule 65 ter he's referring to, I'm a little
9 stumped by his argument because Rule 65 ter requires us to provide a list
10 of witnesses and summaries of their evidence, which we have done --
11 MR. ZECEVIC: That is exactly.
12 MS. PIDWELL: -- in the form of half-page summaries. Obviously a
13 summary is a general summary of the evidence that this witness is going
14 to give in court, and -- so I'm not quite sure that we're required to be
15 held to the terms of the summary. That's not what Rule 92 ter -- we are
16 held to the Rule 92 ter, which means the basis of his evidence, the
17 witness's evidence is either the transcript or the statement, and the
18 65 ter is just the summary. It's what we have summarised. This doesn't
19 form part of the evidence. The evidence is pursuant to Rule 92 ter and
20 that's the package we're relying on, and when we present the 92 ter
21 witness we are tailoring that evidence to the issues in this case in the
22 very limited time that we have.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, that is -- that is exactly the part
24 which -- yeah. Sure.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HALL: It seems that the -- we have no choice but to cut
2 the Gordian Knot here and decide as we are ruling that in the case of
3 this witness he will not be permitted -- no evidence will be led on the
4 new information in the proofing note. He is confined to the previously
5 served statement.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HALL: We rise.
8 --- Recess taken at 4.12 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
10 JUDGE HALL: Is the Prosecution ready with Witness ST-14?
11 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honours. Just while the witness is being
12 brought, Your Honours, this is the first witness you'll hear from the
13 municipality of Zvornik. He is the first of three crime base witnesses,
14 92 ter, you'll be hearing for the balance of the week. He has protective
15 measures, pseudonym, facial and voice distortion. He has testified twice
16 before in the Slobodan Milosevic and the Seselj cases. The Prosecution
17 is relying on his testimony in the Slobodan Milosevic case together with
18 his statement and associated exhibits. I anticipate less than 30 minutes
19 for his examination-in-chief, and the Stanisic Defence have approximated
20 about an hour for his cross-examination.
21 This witness is the survivor of one of the worst massacres in the
22 Prosecution's indictment, namely the calculated execution of
23 approximately 88 men at Drinjaca on the 30th of May, 1992.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 WITNESS: WITNESS ST-14
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 MS. PIDWELL: I think we need to be in closed session, Your
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon. Sir, that piece of paper being
9 shown to you, that document, that does contain your name, does it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's my first and last
11 name, yes.
12 JUDGE HALL: Would you please sign it and hand it back to the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
15 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet will become P291 under seal,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
18 Well, thank you, sir, for coming to testify before this Tribunal.
19 You have been granted protective measures in that there is the -- no
20 one -- no one in the public gallery will be able to see you, and the
21 protective measures include voice and image distortion, so that anyone
22 viewing the proceedings will not be able to identify you either by your
23 face or by your voice, and of course, you would have just signed the
24 pseudonym sheet so that your name would not be publicly disclosed.
4 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 Examination by Ms. Pidwell:
25 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. First I need to go through some technical questions to admit your
3 prior testimony into evidence. Do you recall testifying in the Slobodan
4 Milosevic trial on the 29th of May and the 2nd of June, 2003?
5 A. Yes, I remember.
6 Q. And have you had the opportunity over the last few days to listen
7 to the audio recording of that testimony?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And were the recordings that you listened to accurate?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you were asked the same questions here again, would you give
12 the same answers?
13 A. Yes, I would.
14 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, may this witness's 92 ter package,
15 which comprises his prior testimony, which is 65 ter 10072.1 and 10072.2,
16 his statement which is 65 ter 10072.3, proofing note 65 ter number
17 10072.4 be admitted in evidence, please.
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: This will become Exhibit P292.1 through P292.4,
20 Your Honours.
21 MS. PIDWELL: There are also some associated exhibits which are
22 in the package which is 65 ter 2287, which is a photograph; 65 ter 2353,
23 which is a list of persons killed at Drinjaca; and 65 ter 2558, which is
24 list of persons exhumed which are all on the Prosecution's 65 ter list,
25 and I'd ask that they be admitted under seal, please.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry. I just want to remind my
3 learned colleague from the opposite side that she has to ask the same
4 question for the statement as well, not only for the transcript, because
5 he has to adopt his statement as well.
6 MS. PIDWELL:
7 Q. Sir, do you recall making a statement to the Office of the
8 Prosecutor on the 5th and 6th of January, 2001, a written statement?
9 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.
10 Q. Do you recall reading a statement in the last few days that you
11 had previously made to the Office of the Prosecutor which is dated 15 and
12 16 January, 2001
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you confirm the contents of that statement to be true and
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 MS. PIDWELL: Could we have 65 ter number 3412.12 on the screen,
18 please, and -- sorry, 3419.12.
19 JUDGE HALL: So are you seeking to exhibit this statement at this
21 MS. PIDWELL: I'd already sought to do that, Your Honour, and
22 it's already been exhibited.
23 JUDGE HALL: And the documents that -- that you indicated before,
24 they're also now admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P292.5 through P292.7, Your Honours.
1 MS. PIDWELL: I think we may need to go into private session.
2 This is a map which will reveal some personal details of the witness.
3 JUDGE HALL: Private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 2625-2629 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 MS. PIDWELL: If I could have 65 ter number 3419.16, please.
25 Q. Sir, if you could have a look at the -- at the photograph that's
1 come up on your screen, please, and if you're able to orient yourself
2 from above. Do you recognise any of the buildings depicted in that
4 A. Certainly. I used to live here for 22 years. I went to school
5 here for eight years. As I have said to you, this is a village that is
6 1 to 2 kilometres away from my village, and I recognise everything that I
7 see here.
8 MS. PIDWELL: Perhaps if we could have the assistance of the
9 court officer again so we could mark the photograph.
10 Q. Could you please mark the building that you recognise or -- and
11 explain to us which buildings you do recognise with numbers.
12 A. What you see here, I will put number 1 here, this is the school,
13 the elementary school in Drinjaca. What I'm about to mark here, number
14 2, is Dom Kulture, the culture hall in Drinjaca. This here also needs to
15 be marked. I'll put number 3 here. This is the playground that belongs
16 to the school. If you want, I can also point out some other buildings,
17 but I don't think they're as important as the ones that I have marked.
18 Here there is the health centre, then there's a large shop here, and all
19 around it are private houses.
20 Q. Are you able to mark on that photograph where the killings took
21 place that you witnessed?
22 A. Part of the prisoners were executed here on the side of Dom
23 Kulture, and here I noticed a larger number of people lying dead. This
24 is by number 3, where the school playground is.
25 Q. Could you put a mark, number 4 and 5, on the two sites that
1 you've just marked where you witnessed the killings, please.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. PIDWELL: Could that be admitted as a Prosecution exhibit,
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked with whatever the next
7 number is.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P294, Your Honours.
9 MS. PIDWELL: Could I have 65 ter number 3419.03, please. Thank
11 Q. Sir, do you recognise that building?
12 A. Yes. This is the elementary school in Drinjaca.
13 MS. PIDWELL: Could that be tendered as a Prosecution exhibit,
15 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P295, Your Honours.
17 MS. PIDWELL: Could I have Prosecution -- sorry, 65 ter number
18 3419.04, please.
19 Q. Sir, do you recognise what's in that photo?
20 A. Yes. This is the school playground right next to the school.
21 Q. And is that the area that you marked on the previous aerial
22 photograph as one of the sites that the killings took place -- where the
23 killings took place?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. PIDWELL: Could I tender that as a Prosecution exhibit,
2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P296, Your Honours.
4 MS. PIDWELL: And finally could I have 65 ter number 3429.02,
5 please. Sorry, 3419.02.
6 Q. Do you recognise that building, sir?
7 A. Yes. This is Dom Kulture, the culture hall in Drinjaca where the
8 detainees were.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. PIDWELL: I have no further questions for this witness, and I
11 ask that --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this picture is --
13 MS. PIDWELL:
14 Q. Continue. Sorry.
15 A. Yes. I just wanted to say - perhaps it's important - that this
16 is the picture of Dom Kulture from the side above the building, and I can
17 show you the site where I was shot at and also a large group of people.
18 It happened here.
19 Q. Perhaps you can mark on that photo where you're indicating,
21 A. I stood there, and then all along here, this is where people lay
22 dead, people who had been executed before me. And I was at this spot
23 here when I came there close.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. PIDWELL: If that would be a Prosecution exhibit tendered at
1 this stage.
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P297, Your Honours.
4 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you. I have nothing further for this
5 witness. I've just been advised that the -- the statement and the
6 testimony should have been tendered under seal. I wasn't sure if that
7 was done. Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Zecevic.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. ST-14, you made a correction when the
13 Prosecutor asked you about the date of the massacre, and then on page 44,
14 line 13, you said something that wasn't recorded properly. Would you
15 please remember the date of the massacre.
16 A. The Prosecutor probably made a mistake, because when the weapons
17 were surrendered was on the 29th of April, and the massacre took place on
18 the 30th of May. Perhaps she meant the following day and date-wise,
19 number-wise, it's the same number, but that's why I corrected her.
20 Q. Yes, yes. No, that's fine. You said probably the 30th of May,
21 but the transcript recorded the 3rd of May. That's why I asked for your
23 A. Yes. I'm here to clarify anything that needs to be clarified.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Maybe two or three questions which I think it
25 should be appropriate as we go into the private session in order not to
1 reveal the...
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 2636-2637 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
4 Q. [Interpretation] ST-14, do you know that Patriotic League was
5 established as an armed formation for the town of Zvornik back on 26th of
6 July, 1991, at Kula Grad?
7 A. 26th of July which year?
8 Q. 1991.
9 A. Perhaps, but I did not attend that event. Perhaps that's true,
10 on that day.
11 Q. No, no. I wasn't implying that you attended. I'm just asking
12 whether you knew that the Patriotic League was established on that day.
13 Patriotic League was an armed formation for the town of Zvornik
14 A. You asked me whether I knew that Patriotic League was established
15 on that day, and I told you that perhaps it was established. I heard
16 that Patriotic League existed, but as for the date, I don't know that it
17 was then, but I am familiar with the existence of the Patriotic League.
18 Q. But you do allow for the possibility that it was on that date.
19 A. Yes, it's possible, but I can't be specific, more specific.
20 Q. I'm not asking you to do that. Tell me, please, do you know who
21 the leaders of the party for the democratic action were in Zvornik? I'll
22 give you some names. Asim Juzbasic and Hasim Adzic. Would you agree
23 with me?
24 A. The names are familiar, both names, but I'm not sure that there
25 was a leadership of the party at the level of the municipality, but the
1 names are familiar.
2 Q. Have you heard of Sakib Halilovic, nicknamed Kibe?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know that he was appointed commander of the Patriotic
5 League for the town of Zvornik
6 Do not answer, please. I can't switch my microphone off.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: It looks -- it works now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name is familiar, but I'm not
9 sure that he was at the municipal level, that he was commander of the
10 Patriotic League at the municipal level. I'm not sure about that, but
11 the name is familiar.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you know that after July 1991 every village, every
14 neighbourhood inhabited by Bosniaks received the plan for wartime
15 assignments and commander?
16 A. What I know, and since after the 31st of March when the
17 referendum on independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was held, I wasn't
18 present either in Drinjaca or in Zvornik, (redacted)
19 (redacted), we did self-organise on our own initiative in order to
20 guard our houses, but that there was some plan at the municipal level on
21 arming and so on, I'm not familiar with that although it may have
23 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. We might need just to
24 redact the name of his village at line 19, is it -- sorry, 23, 23 and 24.
25 If we could redact that, please.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Ms. Pidwell. I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Zecevic, I just wonder if there is some
3 sort of misunderstanding. I understood the witness to say that the
4 Patriotic League was established on 26th July, 1991, and that Sakib
5 Halilovic was appointed as its commander for Zvornik in June 1921 --
7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I said July 1991, but in
8 any case it was not known to this witness. He knows the name, but he
9 cannot confirm that this gentleman was appointed commander in 1991.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Understood. I just wanted to know if I heard you
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
13 Q. [Interpretation] I just want to ask you, sir, don't mention the
14 name of your village. We were in open session, so now it has been
15 recorded in the transcript, and there's a possibility that you would be
16 identified. So I'm going to avoid it, but you also avoid mentioning it
17 when you answer, but it happens.
18 Did you hear of Captain Almir who commanded the units and fought
19 for three weeks from Kula Grad in April 1992? Is that -- are you aware
20 of that?
21 A. Yes. I did hear of Captain Almir, but I never knew his real
22 first and last name, so I heard that he had been at Kula Grad and that he
23 was organising the resistance there.
24 Q. Do you know that this Captain Almir -- well, this is his nom de
25 guerre, if I can put it that way, his Partisan name, that he came to
1 Zvornik in December 1991 with the task of forming units, arming them,
2 training them, and building fortifications? Are you aware of that?
3 A. No. No, I'm not.
4 Q. Thank you. I think that during your testimony you said that you
5 knew that in mid-March 1992, the Serbian municipality of Zvornik
6 formed in Karakaj. Is that correct?
7 A. That's the information that we received, that the Serbian
8 municipality of Zvornik was being formed with its seat in Karakaj and
9 that the police, shortly before the fall of Zvornik, that I refer to as
10 fall of Zvornik, had gone to Karakaj just a little bit before that. It
11 was a sort of industrial zone with the majority population of Serbs. So
12 in a way this is the information that we received from people who knew
13 what was going on there. I was just a young man of 22, so I was really
14 just listening to what was going on.
15 Q. So you heard that in mid-May 1992 the Serbian municipality in
16 Karakaj was formed, which was part of the municipality of Zvornik
17 the majority Serb population, and that was when the police in Zvornik
18 separated. You heard about that. And then the rest of Zvornik with the
19 majority of Muslim citizens stayed on the other hand?
20 A. Yes. Well, if you divide it in such a way, it's natural that the
21 rest of the town for a while -- I can't say that it was under Bosniak
22 control. I as a person who imagines Bosnia and Herzegovina with all of
23 its citizens cannot really divide it in this way, but it's a fact that
24 two peoples lived in Zvornik, the Bosniak and the Serb people. So if the
25 Serbs had gone to Karakaj -- I'm not thinking of the population going,
1 but I'm talking about the establishment of the administrative seat for
2 Serbs in Karakaj. Then life proceeded in a more or less normal way until
3 the 5th or the 6th of April, but then a few days before the events in
4 Bijeljina things were disrupted and people already had started to leave
5 and move out of the town according to the information that I received.
6 Both groups of citizens had started to move out and to move their
7 families to safer places.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we'll take the break in about two
9 minutes, so you can --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Okay. I have just one maybe two questions on this
11 subject, then it's a perfect time to break.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Are you aware that the chief of police in
13 Zvornik was Osman Mustafic? At that time.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know that Mr. Mustafic had SDS support but did not have
16 the support of the SDA so much? Are you aware of that?
17 A. I'm sorry, but that is a little bit funny to me. I don't know.
18 It's possible, but I'd never heard of anything like that, that he had
19 that sort of support and that things were the way you say they were.
20 That's a little bit strange.
21 Q. Well, believe me, it was strange to me as well. That's why I'm
22 asking you.
23 Are you aware that at the time when that station was, let us say,
24 the security station was divided in Zvornik and the weapons that were at
25 the station was divided amongst, let me put it that way, the Serbian part
1 in Karakaj and the station that remained in Zvornik, are you aware of
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Maybe it's appropriate time to break now. The
5 microphone is not working.
6 JUDGE HALL: Twenty minutes.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
10 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, while the witness is being brought
11 in, I'd just like to note for the record and for Your Honours that I've
12 been joined by Mr. Gerard Dobbyn for the Prosecution. He will be taking
13 the next witness we hope to start before we adjourn tonight.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 MR. ZECEVIC: May I proceed, Your Honours?
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
18 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more question, Mr. ST-14. We talked
19 about this division in the municipality of the police, in the Zvornik
20 municipality. Would you agree with me that there were no conflicts
21 during that division of the police and the municipality in the town
22 itself? Can you confirm that, please?
23 A. Well, I think that there were no conflicts, no.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me, do you know that as of late
25 March, throughout April and -- if there were any attacks about -- attacks
1 against some soldiers of the JNA, some ambushes, killings of policemen,
2 attacks on Serbian villages, burning of houses? Do you remember that,
3 anything like that?
4 A. Well, I think that you would need to just give me a little
5 description of a case or give me some village names in order for me to be
6 able to say anything about that.
7 Q. I'm just interested generally if you're aware of such
8 information. If you do, then we could go into more detail if that is
9 something that we would be interested in pursuing.
10 A. I don't have information, and I wouldn't really like to dwell on
11 any of that because it didn't happen in my village or in my local
12 community. So if some things did happen, perhaps, yes, but I don't feel
13 that I can talk about that then.
14 Q. Well, no, I didn't mean for you to comment on anything like that.
15 I just wanted to know if you had heard of any cases like that or not.
16 You can just answer with a yes or no.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Can you please tell me, on the 26th of April, 1992, when Kula
19 Grad fell, as you said, I think that you said at one point that all the
20 neighbouring villages around Zvornik were alerted by radio to surrender
21 and lay down their arms. Isn't that right?
22 A. I just heard that Kula Grad was liberated. I don't know by whom,
23 how, but this is a broad topic, and of course the propaganda was aimed at
24 letting people know that they need to hand in their weapons and to
25 refrain from putting up any resistance, that there was no point in
1 defending that area.
2 Q. And did you hear this over the radio, or did I understand that
4 A. I don't know if anybody in the village was listening to the
5 radio. I wasn't, but they -- they said that such things were broadcast
6 on the radio. But I heard something else on the radio in a different
7 place. This was around the 30th of May when what happened in our area
9 Q. All right. We're still on April. In your statement you say that
10 on the 29th of April, a unit came to your village - I'm not going to
11 mention the name - and that it was, if I understood you correctly, it was
12 a paramilitary formation together with the JNA unit, which was led by a
13 certain Major Pavlovic. Is that correct?
14 A. That unit with that name, it's a man that I don't know. He's a
15 professional soldier. I got that information from people who were there.
16 A unit of the Yugoslav Army came, and they told me that there was a
17 military -- a Yugoslav flag flying on one their military vehicles and
18 that they wanted the weapons to be surrendered in Pod -- Drinjaca.
19 Q. Can you tell me, if you know, that this Major Pavlovic was a
20 commander of the defence of Zvornik? He was the commander of all the
21 forces in Zvornik. Are you aware of that?
22 A. Well, I didn't know anything about that man at the time. All I
23 knew was what I heard from those people who attended that meeting when
24 the weapons were being handed over. I didn't know anything about him. I
25 just heard some things in stories people were telling during the war and
1 after the war, but I didn't know him at all.
2 Q. But that confirms what I said, that he was the commander of all
3 the armed forces. He was the commander of the defence of Zvornik.
4 A. I'm going to say what I know. I don't want to comment now about
5 the things that I heard from other people. I'm really not sure. I
6 personally am not sure what he was commander of. I'm not sure. I never
7 really took some information for granted. Some things I wasn't even
8 interested in, who the commander was, I mean, people would say things
9 like that, but as for his name, people who knew him told me what his name
10 was. And he said one thing that I have to mention now. He thanked the
11 people who had brought in and handed over their weapons, and then he
12 personally guaranteed their security in the future, that nothing would
13 happen, meaning that you had become loyal citizens, you can return to
14 your work and your everyday activities, and he thanked the people who had
15 brought in their weapons. I heard that from people who were there. I
16 heard them say that he said that. And they experienced a kind of relief
17 because of that, however, the events that would unfold did not turn out
18 that way.
19 Q. I understand.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 2647-2651 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open Session]
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes. We're back in open session.
20 Thank you, sir, for attending, and we wish you a safe journey
21 back to your home. You are now released as a witness.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE HALL: Is the Prosecution ready with its next witness?
25 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, before the next witness is called I do
1 have an application to make, and I'd ask that we go into closed session
2 for this.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honour, the next witness is Witness ST-15. Oh,
5 pardon me.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 2654 redacted. Private session.
6 [Closed session]
11 Pages 2656-2663 redacted. Closed session.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day
22 of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.