Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2665

 1                           Thursday, 5 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning.  May we begin in the usual manner by

 9     taking the appearances today, please.

10             MR. DOBBYN:  For the Office of the Prosecutor Gerard Dobbyn,

11     along with Belinda Pidwell and Crispian Smith our case manager.  Good

12     morning, Your Honours.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14     Appearing for Mr. Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene O'Sullivan.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

16     Defence, Igor Pantelic.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             The public gallery is cleared, has it?

19             Could we have the witness returned to the stand, please.

20                           [Closed session]

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11 Pages 2666-2683 redacted. Closed session.















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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the next witness -- well, your Legal

16     Officer may have just advised you, we've requested with the agreement of

17     the Defence, we've switched them to enable them to have more time to

18     prepare ST-156, who was the one subject to the proofing issue that we

19     discussed yesterday.  So ST-28 is available and is ready to testify.  We

20     have the -- he was to be brought in at 10.00.  The Defence have taken

21     less time than we expected with the cross-examination, but I'm confident

22     he will be here despite the rain.

23             There is one issue that we need to deal with on a preliminary

24     basis with him, and that is the issue of his protective measures.  This

25     was a witness that we discussed about ten days ago, and Your Honours

Page 2685

 1     wanted to talk directly to him about the issues.  And I wonder if while

 2     he's being organised, if I can address you briefly at this point to

 3     provide some assistance before you deal with the witness directly if

 4     that's appropriate.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6                           [Private session]

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11 Pages 2686-2691 redacted. Private session.















Page 2692

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

16        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Do you recall making a statement, a written

17     statement, to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 18th and 19th of

18     September, 1998?

19        A.   Yes, I remember that.

20        Q.   And have you been given the opportunity over the course of the

21     past few days to review that statement?

22        A.   Yes, I have been given the opportunity.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if we could have the statement up in

24     e-court, but I understand it can't be broadcast.  65 ter 10045.

25             With Your Honours' permission, I'd like to lead him through the

Page 2693

 1     number of changes that he made to the statement during proofing session.

 2     There were -- it's about six slight changes to dates and so forth that I

 3     would lead him through.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  Could we please have page 3 of the English and the

 6     B/C/S.

 7        Q.   Sir, I draw your attention to paragraph 3 of that statement which

 8     commences with the words:  "At this time in Bileca the SDS ..."

 9             In our proofing session you requested that that be changed to

10     August 1991; do you recall that?

11        A.   Yes, that was in August 1991.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we could have page 4, paragraph 6 in the

14     English and page 5 of the B/C/S, I think it's paragraph -- the top of

15     page 5 in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   Sir, do you recall -- there's a sentence which commences:  "I was

17     stood down from this position," meaning the reserve police, "at the

18     beginning of December ..."

19             And you wanted to add in that you were re-instated in January

20     1992.  Do you recall that?

21        A.   I was not removed.  I was demobilised and then re-mobilised in

22     January 1992.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Can I have page 6, paragraph 1 of the English,

25     please; and page 6, paragraph 3 of the B/C/S.

Page 2694

 1        Q.   Sir, you'll see a paragraph there, I think it's the third

 2     paragraph in your language, which commences:  "On the 1st of May, 1992,

 3     when I came to work ..."

 4             Do you recall wanting to change that to being "at the beginning

 5     of May" because you thought that the 1st of May may have been a work

 6     holiday?

 7        A.   Yes, the 1st of May is the international labour day and it was a

 8     bank holiday in Bosnia.  Nobody went to work.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And then the following paragraph on that same page

10     commences:  "On 9 June I was walking through Bileca ..."

11             And you were unclear or unsure of the exact date when you

12     reviewed your statement and wanted to change that date to "a few days

13     before the arrests commenced."  Do you recall that?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And in the same paragraph where it reads:  "I was about 200

16     metres away from it," it being the football field, you wanted to include

17     that you were standing by a monument called Zvezda; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And on the same page in the next paragraph down, you wanted to

20     include the name of the president of the Trebinje municipality which is

21     not stated in your statement.  Could you provide that name, please.

22        A.   Bozidar Vucurevic.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And finally on page 8 of the English and page 8 of

24     the B/C/S as well, please, paragraph 2, it's the second paragraph on each

25     page commencing:  "The Red Cross visited us on 18th August ..."

Page 2695

 1             You wanted to include another date where it reads:

 2     "Goran Vujovic and Duka came ..." and you wanted to add in "on the 15th

 3     of August."  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Incorporating these changes, do you confirm that

 6     the contents of your statement are true and correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that, Your Honours.

 9             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, my friend's gone through this

10     proofing note.  And if I might direct my friend to the bottom of page 1,

11     the second bullet point, there's also a change to his statement, and I

12     wonder why that wasn't included in the changes he provided to the

13     Prosecution on the 1st and 2nd November.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm happy -- I'm going to lead evidence through

15     this witness on that issue, but I'm happy to do that now if that --

16             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Well, it just seems that some changes -- the

17     changes enumerated are, in fact, the ones he made, and there's one more

18     that wasn't put to him.  And I would submit that if he adopts it, then

19     his -- then he would be adopting his full statement with the changes.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Pidwell, inasmuch as you are seeking to

21     have this exhibited.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  I'll address that with the witness now before it's

23     tendered.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  If we could then have page 6, paragraph 2 of the

Page 2696

 1     B/C/S -- sorry, of the English and page 6, I think it's paragraph 4, on

 2     the B/C/S.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Sir, if you -- if I can direct your attention to the paragraph

 4     where you were talking about the helicopter arriving in the town of

 5     Bileca, I think it's -- there it commences "on 9 June," but you've

 6     changed that to "a few days before the arrests occurred," you talk about

 7     seeing -- about the people coming out of the helicopter.  And currently

 8     the statement reads:

 9             "When the children were running back, they were all saying that

10     Karadzic, Mladic, and Stanisic had arrived.  Stanisic was the commander

11     of the Serbian police for the whole of Bosnia."

12             Did you want to make any change to that portion of your

13     statement?

14        A.   Yes, I said that I wasn't sure that Stanisic was together with

15     Mladic and Karadzic.  17 years later I can't be sure.  When I provided

16     this statement I believed that he was there, and as I sit here today I

17     really can't be sure whether that's correct or not.  I'm not sure.

18        Q.   So would you like to change your statement as it reads at the

19     moment to saying something -- to saying the children were running back

20     and they were all saying "Karadzic, Mladic, and Stanisic had arrived.

21     I'm not sure if Stanisic was there ..." or what words would you like to

22     be put in place of the words that are there?

23        A.   I would like it to read as follows:  "I'm not sure that Stanisic

24     was there."  I don't want anybody to think that he wasn't, but I am not

25     sure whether he was.

Page 2697

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  With that change incorporated, I'd now seek to

 3     tender that statement as --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  -- Prosecution --

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P304, under seal, Your Honours.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:

 8        Q.   Sir, I'd first like to ask you some questions about the reserve

 9     police.  Can you please explain how you became to be a reserve policeman

10     in Bileca.

11        A.   When I ended my service in the JNA, together with everybody else

12     I was assigned to either an army unit or a police unit.  I was assigned

13     to a reserve police unit and my mobilisation point was the village of

14     Plana which is some 14 kilometres away from the centre of Bileca.

15        Q.   Do you recall when you were first called up for active duty?

16        A.   On the day or rather late in the afternoon on the day when the

17     attack on Dubrovnik started.  That was on the 14th of October, 1991.

18        Q.   And how did that occur?  How did it come about that you were

19     called up?  Did you receive a phone call?  Were you advised in writing?

20        A.   The duty policeman of the Bileca police station called me at 3.00

21     after midnight.  He informed me that there was mobilisation in place and

22     that I had to report no later than 8.00 that morning to my mobilisation

23     spot in the village of Plana.

24        Q.   And what duties were you asked to perform in this role?

25        A.   The role of the reserve police was to regulate traffic in that

Page 2698

 1     area, to secure facilities, to control vehicles and passengers, and we

 2     were instructed to pay special attention to young recruits who were

 3     trying to evade their service in the JNA.  They were fleeing from the JNA

 4     and trying to get home.  We were also instructed to prevent the smuggling

 5     of fuel.  There was a shortage of fuel at that time and smugglers were

 6     trying to smuggle fuel across Herzegovina at that time.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, sorry for the interruption, but the

 8     witness was talking about the 14th of October the attack on -- I didn't

 9     hear on what and the transcript doesn't say it.  Can the witness repeat.

10     14th of October, 1991, the attack on ...  started.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say 14 October.  I said at

12     the beginning of October and the place is Dubrovnik, a Croatian city.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MS. PIDWELL:

15        Q.   What uniform did you wear when you were called up for active

16     duty?

17        A.   The reserve police uniforms did not differ much from the uniforms

18     of the regular police.  It was dark blue and we sported normal caps, very

19     much like a military cap.  And we also had a five-pointed star on our

20     caps.  That was the standard police uniform of the former BiH or the

21     former Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   And were you issued with a weapon as well?

23        A.   Yes, I was issued with an automatic rifle, A-70.

24        Q.   And at the conclusion of your workday, were you required to leave

25     the rifle in the -- in a police building or were you able to take this

Page 2699

 1     home with you?

 2        A.   We were allowed to take our weapons home.

 3        Q.   Who was in charge of the reserve police once they were deployed

 4     or called up for active service?

 5        A.   The commander of the police station in Plana was Mr. Spiro

 6     Despetic.

 7        Q.   And how far away is Plana from the town of Bileca?

 8        A.   About 14 kilometres.

 9        Q.   Now, in your statement you talk about being mobilised in January

10     1992 and the police uniforms changing at that time and that your

11     involvement with the police ended at that point.  Could you please

12     explain how it came about that you were advised about these changes in

13     the police.

14        A.   As I already said in my statement, we were re-mobilised in

15     January 1992.  At that time the procedure was as before.  Soldiers or

16     policemen of Serb ethnicity, they had already stopped wearing

17     five-pointed stars on their cap.  At the beginning of March 1992, a

18     meeting was called at the Plana police station.  The then-deputy of the

19     police commander, Mr. Miomir Milosevic, came to that meeting, together

20     with a crime department policeman whose name was Mr. Sudzum, and they

21     told us that there was a decision which came from above, as they put it,

22     from the government of Republika Srpska that the police of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina would be separated from the police of Republika Srpska.  And

24     in keeping with that, that the uniforms and markings of the Serb police

25     should be worn.  Instead of the normal caps with five-pointed stars we

Page 2700

 1     had to wear black caps with a two-headed eagle on the sleeve and on the

 2     cap.  And we were told that those who didn't want to wear that uniform,

 3     that we should leave the weapons and our uniforms.  And the 10 per cent

 4     of us who were Bosniaks on the force did that.  On that day we left our

 5     uniforms and our weapons behind.

 6        Q.   Do you know if any policemen other than policemen of Serb

 7     nationality stayed within the police force at this time in your area?

 8        A.   No.  All non-Serbs handed back their weapons and equipment and

 9     were no longer part of the reserve police force.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I now want to ask you some questions about a

11     unit you describe in your statement called "specijalci," and I'm

12     specifically referring to the English paragraph 3 of page 3.  I think

13     it's the same in B/C/S.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber what you know

14     about this unit?

15        A.   With the forming of the SOA [as interpreted] Herzegovina

16     organisation, as a political organisation of Herzegovina, the SAO police

17     was also formed.  What I know is that in August 1991 the police began to

18     train in the Mosa Pijade barracks in Bileca, and it had some 35 policemen

19     from Bileca.  I know that because most of those policemen later were part

20     of the regular police force when the mobilisation of the reserve police

21     began -- actually, they were part of the reserve police.  They were

22     well-trained.  These were people from Bileca who knew martial arts, and

23     these were Spiro Despetic and police commander Miroslav Duka, they were

24     in that group.

25             The police force were later part of the reserve police force.

Page 2701

 1     And then sometime in June or May 1992 the so-called "specijalna" police

 2     unit was formed from those people, and their task was to cleanse the

 3     terrain, and they had certain assignments in the police in cooperation

 4     with the army, the JNA.  The "specijalna policija" wore the same uniforms

 5     as we did, blue ones, but they also wore camouflage uniforms usually when

 6     they went out on assignment.

 7        Q.   You say "camouflage uniforms," sir.  Were they regular green

 8     camouflage uniforms or another colour?

 9        A.   They were regular green camouflage uniforms, the same ones that

10     the army wore.

11        Q.   And you say in your statement in the following paragraph, page 3,

12     that you -- because you were going to take on the role of police

13     commander you rang a Mr. Pusina specifically about this unit in 1999 --

14     1991.  What was -- what prompted you to telephone him?  What was your

15     concern?

16        A.   I was concerned because that unit was outside of the system of

17     the police forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It was an illegal

18     organisation, unconstitutional according to the Constitution of Bosnia

19     and Herzegovina that was in force at the time.  So if I was a

20     commander -- a candidate for the chief of police in that town, of course

21     one of my concerns was to make sure that everything was regular and in

22     accordance with the constitution.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'd ask you to look at a document now, please.  It's

24     65 ter 2132.  Sir, you'll see a document on your screen which is headed:

25     "List of Employees of the Special Unit for Payment of Salaries for the

Page 2702

 1     Month of April 1992" for the SJB Bileca.  In the B/C/S it's got a list of

 2     names.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps if we could have -- there's 20 names on

 4     there.  If we could have the entire list.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise any of the names that are contained in that

 6     list?

 7        A.   Yes, I know about half of them.

 8        Q.   Perhaps you could just tell us the numbers of the names that you

 9     recognise.

10        A.   1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 19.  That's it.

11        Q.   Now, this document is dated April 1992.  Are you able to -- do

12     you know if any of these men that you know from this list were part of

13     the special unit that you were concerned about in the previous year?

14        A.   I'm sure for numbers -- about numbers 3, 4, and 19 only.

15        Q.   And for the -- for the balance of the people that you know on

16     that list, do you know whether they were regular policemen or reserve

17     policemen or not policemen at all before April 1992?

18        A.   No one from this list is from the regular police force.  All of

19     these people are members of the reserve police force.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, could I ask for a clarification.  To

21     your question:  "Do you know if any of these men that you know from this

22     list were part of the special unit?"

23             And the answer is:  "I'm sure for numbers -- about numbers 3, 4,

24     and 19 ..." I'm -- oh, it said "I'm sure."  I thought the answer was "I'm

25     not sure."  If it said "I'm sure," I have no question.  I'm sorry.

Page 2703

 1             MS. PIDWELL:

 2        Q.   And on that list do you see any names of non-Serbs who were with

 3     you in the reserve police?

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  I understand there's no translation coming through.

 6     I'll repeat the question.

 7        Q.   On the list - I think if we can have it back up again -- or it's

 8     on, yes ...

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MS. PIDWELL:

11        Q.   -- do you see any names of non-Serbs who were with you in the

12     reserve police on that list?

13        A.   I don't understand the question.

14        Q.   On the list before you, do you see -- of the people on that list

15     that you know, what is their ethnicity?

16        A.   All the people on this list are Serbs.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek now to tender that document as a Prosecution

18     exhibit, please.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P305, Your Honours.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I now please have 65 ter 3419.24.

22        Q.   Sir, you'll see on your screen a photograph.  Could you please

23     tell us if you recognise any buildings in -- depicted in that photograph.

24        A.   This is a photograph of the centre of Bileca, and of course I

25     know every single building.  And if you're interested in this blue

Page 2704

 1     building, that is the police building.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps if I could have the assistance of the usher

 3     to -- so we can mark the photo.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, you're able to mark the photo.  Perhaps if you could just

 5     write a 1 on the building which depicts -- which you've just described,

 6     the SJB building.

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   Thank you.  There was a -- there's a building directly behind the

 9     SJB building there.  Are you able to say whether that building was there

10     in 1992 or whether it was not?

11        A.   I don't think the building existed in 1992.  This is a new

12     building.

13        Q.   Could you mark that new building with the number 2, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Do you recall what was there in 1992?

16        A.   It was a coal depot.  The police station was heated by coal,

17     using coal, so that's where the coal was kept, the one that was used for

18     the heating of the station.  And this building was also used as one of

19     the prisons in Bileca from the time of -- for the period of June to

20     December in 1992.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And you'll also see in that -- we also see in that

22     photograph on the left-hand side an area of grass.  Is that -- can you

23     just -- is that a football field?

24        A.   Yes, this is a football field marked with the number 3.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are there any other football fields in the town

Page 2705

 1     centre of Bileca?

 2        A.   No, just the one.

 3        Q.   And when we made some small changes to your statement, you talked

 4     about a monument that you were standing next to when the helicopter

 5     arrived in Bileca in early June.  Could you please find on that

 6     photograph, if you're able to, the area where the monument is where you

 7     were standing.

 8        A.   You can't see the monument on this photograph, but it's about

 9     here or some 50 metres in the opposite direction.  It's not on the

10     photograph.

11        Q.   Sorry.  When you say "here" -- is that where you put the -- the

12     4, sorry.  And what is the --

13        A.   Marked with the number 4.  Number 4, so it's about 50 metres

14     farther down the road.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, could you estimate the distance just to

16     give us a bit of perspective from the police station to the edge of the

17     football field?

18        A.   You mean from the police station?  The police station was some

19     300 metres away.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as a Prosecution exhibit,

22     please.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P306, Your Honours.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I please have 65 ter 3077.

Page 2706

 1        Q.   Sir, you'll see a document on your screen, which is a list of

 2     employees in the reserve police in the month of April 1992 in Bileca.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps if we could just have the first page of the

 4     B/C/S up a little, please.  That's it.

 5        Q.   There's a -- you'll see 28 names there on the first page of the

 6     document.  Are there any names on there that you recognise?

 7        A.   Yes, I know many names on this list.

 8        Q.   Perhaps just for this page of the document if you could give us

 9     the numbers of the names of the people that you know.

10        A.   The names under the numbers 1, 2, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14,

11     19, 20, 22, 24, 26, 27, and 28.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  If we could go to the final page of that document,

14     please.  I think it's -- yes, 1961, that's correct, to the bottom,

15     please.  That's it.

16        Q.   You see, sir, that it -- the numbers go up to 170, and

17     unfortunately we don't have the next page of this document.  But are you

18     aware if there were that many members of the reserve police in Bileca in

19     1992?

20        A.   Yes, there were more than 170.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as a Prosecution exhibit,

23     please.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P307, Your Honours.

Page 2707

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I have 65 ter 3078, please.

 3        Q.   Sir, you'll see on your screen another list, a list of employees

 4     for the payment of salary for the month of May 1992 in Bileca.  Do you

 5     recognise any of the names on this list?

 6        A.   I know all of them except the name next to number 23.

 7        Q.   And are you able to confirm that those men were part of the

 8     active police in the SJB in Bileca at that time?

 9        A.   There are persons on this list who worked as clerks in the police

10     station and who were not policemen.  These are people, under number 2,

11     Mr. Kundacina worked on the defence preparations, so he was not a part of

12     the police force.  Number 4, she worked as a secretary.  And number 5

13     worked as a cleaning lady.  Number 18, Lazar Sudzum, worked as the chief

14     of the criminal investigation unit.  He wasn't a policeman.  And the same

15     applies to Slavo Vujovic.  Number 20, Vojislav Kasikovic issued personal

16     ID cards and maintained the criminal records files.  Number 21, 22, 23,

17     and 24 were also not regular policemen but they worked in the Bileca

18     police station building.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And are you able to confirm or is it within your

20     knowledge whether that's an approximate number of the police and clerical

21     staff who worked in the SJB in Bileca?

22        A.   Yes, I think that on this list they were all paid.  I think at

23     least as far as the month of May is concerned.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as a Prosecution exhibit,

Page 2708

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P308, Your Honours.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  If we just have that on the screen just for a

 5     couple more minutes, please.

 6        Q.   Sir, when you were arrested in July, were any of the people who

 7     were involved in your arrest named on that list?

 8        A.   Yes, number 16, Milorad Ilic, nicknamed Miso.

 9        Q.   And when you were at the SJB in Bileca on that day, on the day of

10     your arrest, did you see any of the other people who were named on the

11     list at the police station on that day?

12        A.   Yes, together with Ilic, Milorad, there were two reserve force

13     policemen, Radoje Vojnovic and Vujovic, Ratomir.  When I was brought to

14     the Bileca police station, the commander of the police station was there,

15     Duka Miroslav; the chief of police, Goran Vujovic; and regular police

16     officer, Dragisa Ivkovic; as well as Dobrivoje Balj who was a member of

17     the reserve police force.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I have 65 ter 3419.21, please.  I think we

20     got two photos -- I think we just need photo up there otherwise it's a

21     bit confusing.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, you'll see a photograph up on your screen there.  Are you

23     able to recognise any of the -- recognise the buildings there?

24        A.   Yes, I recognise most of the buildings, but I can see that there

25     are some new buildings there too.  All right.  This is a little better

Page 2709

 1     now.  The building that I marked with a number 1 is a building called

 2     pupils' residence hall, Djacki Dom, and that was one of the prisons in

 3     Bileca where I spent some time between the 4th of July and the 11th of

 4     October.  This is the school building which is in the immediate vicinity.

 5     Buildings 3 and 4 didn't exist in 1992 and building 4 was under

 6     construction at the time.

 7        Q.   And how far are these buildings from the SJB building that we saw

 8     in the previous photo?

 9        A.   If you were to go by road, it would be about 1 and a half

10     kilometres or perhaps 2.  Of course there is a shortcut which was about 1

11     kilometre long.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that, Your Honours, as a

14     Prosecution exhibit.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P309, Your Honours.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I have 65 ter 3419.25, please.

18        Q.   Sir, you'll see on your screen a different photograph.  Are you

19     able to recognise that building?

20        A.   Yes.  This is the building of the student housing which was the

21     place where I was detained.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to admit that as a Prosecution exhibit.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As P310, Your Honours.

Page 2710

 1             MS. PIDWELL:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, in your statement you say that reserve -- some --

 3     reserve police initially guarded this facility, that's at page 1,

 4     paragraph 1 of the English.  I want you to look at a list of names,

 5     please, at 65 ter 2136.  Sir, are you able to recognise any of the names

 6     on that list who were men who guarded the Djacki Dom when you were being

 7     detained there?

 8        A.   Number 3 was there for a very short time.  Number 20,

 9     Aco [as interpreted] Vojnovic, number 21, 24, 29, 31, 32, 34, 36.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Could we have the next page, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 41.  Next page, please.

12             84.  Next page, please.  Next page, please.  Next page, please.

13             That would be that, and there are some names on the previous

14     list.  Those men were guards and their names are not contained on this

15     particular list.

16             MS. PIDWELL:

17        Q.   Thank you.  We'll pull that list up -- back up again.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  I would just like to seek to formally tender this

19     as a Prosecution exhibit, please.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P311, Your Honours.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

23             Could we have the previous list up, please, that's P308.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not this one.

25             MS. PIDWELL:

Page 2711

 1        Q.   Sir, are any of the -- any of the names listed there, were they

 2     ever guards at the Djacki Dom while you were there?

 3        A.   This is a list of regular police officers.  They were there, most

 4     of them, and I can give you some numbers or names, number 3, Bojovic; 7;

 5     8; 9; 10; 11; 12; 13; 14; 15; 16; 17; 20.  They were guards.  They were

 6     regular police officers, but I meant the list of reserve policemen that

 7     were shown before the second list was shown to me.  That list contained

 8     some other names that were not contained in the subsequent list.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Unless Your Honours want me to go through that

10     second list to provide additional names, my submission would be that the

11     point has been made from the Prosecution's perspective, that reserve

12     policemen were guarding this facility.  I'm happy to go through the

13     second list with him and get him to name additional people.  It's just a

14     separate pay list from a different month with some additional names on

15     them.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But the names in this last list are active

17     policemen and they were guards as well?

18             MS. PIDWELL:  That's correct.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can the witness confirm that.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said that most of

21     the men on the list, which is the payroll list for May 1992, were regular

22     police officers.  There's some other people who were not policemen but

23     staff, and all these policemen were also guards in one of the two

24     prisons.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sir, if I may just clarify.  The issue is whether

Page 2712

 1     the persons who guarded the two detention centres were members of the

 2     reserve police force and also the regular police force, or was it only

 3     persons from the reserve police who were asked to guard the premises?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very beginning, as from the

 5     10th of June, 1992, the ratio was one regular, several reserve police

 6     officers, and that lasted for about a month or a month and a half.  After

 7     that all the reserve police officers were removed from the duty and

 8     replaced by regular policemen.  As of mid-July I would say that only

 9     regular police officers served as prison guards.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Because of the time constraints, I'm not going to

12     go through the exercise with the second document, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Perhaps while we've got this document up, sir, in your statement

14     you talk about being tortured with a black box at the Djacki Dom, and you

15     name the person who administered that to you in your statement at page 9,

16     paragraph 2.  Do you see that person's name on that list there?

17        A.   Yes, that person is under name 8, Nedeljko Kuljic, also known as

18     Nedjo.  That was his nickname.

19        Q.   And also in your statement you name two other police -- two other

20     persons, sorry, who you say were responsible for administering this

21     electric shock treatment to others as well as you.  Do you see -- do you

22     see either of their names on that list?

23        A.   Yes, number 7 as well as number 16.

24        Q.   And, sir, just to clarify, in your statement you describe the

25     equipment used for that torture as a black box with a handle.  Are you

Page 2713

 1     able to elaborate on that, please?

 2        A.   It was actually an induction telephone with electricity, which is

 3     also called a field telephone set.  It's a box with a handle on the side.

 4     It had about 2-metre-long cable that the policeman tied around the finger

 5     of my left hand and then right hand with pliers.  And then he told me

 6     that if I put my hands together to close the circle he would slaughter

 7     me.  I did all that in squatting position.  Then he turned the handle.  I

 8     fell on my back, I fainted, and I broke the cable.  That was a big

 9     problem for him.  He had to attach the cable again and he had to do it

10     twice, and all the time he was telling me that he would show me how

11     genocide is committed.  So he did that three times in the course of that

12     torture session.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'd now like to show you another document.  It's

14     65 ter 3014.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  This should be under seal, so I don't think it

16     needs -- can be broadcast.  If we could have the B/C/S version up

17     slightly, please.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, you'll see in front of you a list of Muslims who exchanged

19     apartments and houses by agreement.  It's a list that you can see is

20     handwritten in the original.  Are you able to tell us whether you

21     recognise any of the names on that list?

22        A.   As far as the names are concerned, these are Muslims for -- from

23     Bileca, and I know every single one of them.  Also I would like to say

24     that that was one of the "conditions" to be released.  We were promised

25     that if we exchanged our apartment for an apartment in another city, that

Page 2714

 1     we would be released from lie -- from prison and that was a lie.  Number

 2     14 is my father's name.  He exchanged his apartment.  That was his

 3     property.  He exchanged it and I now live in that apartment.  That person

 4     who is on the list was brought to us.  He had resided in Mostar, and we

 5     only received a key to that apartment, no paperwork, nothing.  And

 6     everybody who did that, all those dealings and contracts were proclaimed

 7     null and void after the war.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  If I can ask the usher to go to the next page,

10     please.

11        Q.   Now, sir, I'm not sure if you can assist us with this but you'll

12     see there is some -- well, I'll call it scribble at the top and on the

13     right-hand side.  Are you able to decipher anything from that?

14        A.   Judging by the family names, those are Serb family names of the

15     Serbs from Bileca.  I believe that these are the names of those who

16     exchanged their apartments, but I can't be sure of that.  I can see that

17     the family names here are Vujovic and that family name is also the most

18     common Serb family name in Bileca.

19        Q.   Sorry, to clarify, sir, when you say "Vujovic," can you indicate

20     on the document which part you're talking about, where you see that name.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps the usher could assist him in marking the

22     document.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say judging by the

24     handwriting that one and the same person wrote all this.

25             MS. PIDWELL:

Page 2715

 1        Q.   And -- sorry, sir, just to clarify.  The dots that you've marked

 2     there on the top of the screen, is that where you see the name Vujovic?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  I'm sure that the person who put all those family

 4     names Vujovic on the paper is one and the same.  The handwriting is the

 5     same.

 6        Q.   And do you recall who the head of the police station in Bileca

 7     was at the time?

 8        A.   Goran Vujovic, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, the next page on that document, please -- it's actually the

10     same number.  It's a separate document.

11                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Can I seek to tender that now.  I understand I must

13     do that separately if I want the dots included.  I seek to tender it as a

14     Prosecution exhibit, please.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P312, under seal, Your Honours.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Could I have the next page, please, which is headed

18     2 --  0411-2304 it's another handwritten list.

19        Q.   Sir, you'll see this is a list in two parts, the top being a list

20     of persons over 60 who have been detained, and then there's the word

21     "station" I think in a box with ten names listed there.  Are you able to

22     recognise any of the people listed in that first -- in those ten names in

23     that first list?

24        A.   I would like to say that the English translation is not good,

25     that the names were recorded erroneously because the -- instead of their

Page 2716

 1     names what it shows are their fathers' names.  And as far as the people

 2     are concerned, I know all of them, all of them on the list.

 3        Q.   Well, perhaps then, sir, you could assist us and read out the

 4     proper names so -- in the right order?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, I suppose this would be a convenient

 6     point to take the break.  We pick up in 20 minutes.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, just to advise, I've been joined by

11     my colleague, Mr. Francesco Rindi who will be taking the next witness.

12     We probably won't get to him today, but it's just a back-up position.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, while the witness is on his way back to

14     the stand, I would -- we should bring to your attention that of the 45

15     minutes you've requested, you've spent an hour and ten.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  I was made aware of that, sir, in the break.  Can I

17     just advise with Your Honours' leave, I have about ten minutes I think.

18     This is the last document.  Unfortunately, there's a problem with the

19     translation which may take a bit of time to just confirm the name, and

20     there's only one other issue that I want to direct Your Honours'

21     attention to from his statement.  So I anticipate ten minutes maximum

22     from now on.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             MS. PIDWELL:

25        Q.   Sir, before the break we were looking at a list that you see up

Page 2717

 1     on your screen there of persons detained at the station over the age of

 2     60, and you told us that there was a problem with the English

 3     translation.  Could you perhaps read the names of numbers 1 to 10 for us,

 4     please, of the correct -- so the interpreters can correct that for the

 5     record.

 6        A.   In the English translation there is a mix-up.  The person's name

 7     is replaced by the father's name.  For example, under number 1, Huso is

 8     the name of the father and Sacir is the name of the person, and that

 9     repeats with every name.  Babovic, for example, Smajo is his father's

10     name.  Jagavac, his name is Fehim so on and so forth; Ismet Vilic, for

11     example, his father's name is Musan.  Serif Bajramovic, his name -- his

12     father's name is Ramo.  Rasim Mirgiz, his name -- his father's name is

13     Dzemil.  There has been a mix-up in the English translation.  The two

14     names have been mixed up.

15        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that for us, sir.  Can we just take the

16     first name as an example.  There's a number next to the name in what

17     would be -- would appear to be column 4, 1931.  Do you know the person

18     who was named at number 1?

19        A.   Yes, I do -- or rather, I used to know the person because the

20     person died.

21        Q.   And do you know what that number relates to?

22        A.   That's the year of birth.

23        Q.   And do you know if those ten people were detained at the police

24     station in Bileca?

25        A.   You mean after the 5th of October?

Page 2718

 1        Q.   At any time in 1992 do you know if they were detained in the SJB

 2     building in Bileca?

 3        A.   Yes, all individuals on the list were in prison between the 10th

 4     of June, 1992, and some were released on the 5th of October, 1992, and

 5     some were detained until the 17th of December, 1992.  In other words, all

 6     the individuals on the list were indeed in the prison at a certain point

 7     in time and for some time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And there's another word on the list which is in a --

 9     surrounded by some markings as a heading.  Could you read that word for

10     us in the middle of the document which heads the second list of names?

11        A.   You mean this here?

12        Q.   Yes, that's correct, sir.

13        A.   What it says here is the students' dorm, the students' housing,

14     in the Cyrillic, Djacki Dom.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And if you could have a look at the names, I think

16     there's 12 listed below that heading, do you recognise any of the persons

17     listed there?

18        A.   I know everybody on the list.

19        Q.   And are you able to confirm or to your knowledge do the dates of

20     birth appear to be appropriate for the persons listed there -- sorry, the

21     year of birth?

22        A.   I can't be a hundred per cent sure, but I would say that the

23     years are correct.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  And just finally with that document, could we turn

25     to the next page, please.

Page 2719

 1        Q.   Are you able -- this is the flip side of the document.  Are you

 2     able to decipher what is written on that page?

 3        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

 4        Q.   I'll repeat the question.  Are you able to decipher anything

 5     that's written there?

 6        A.   Again, the same handwriting as on the previous document, Vujovic,

 7     Vujovic, Vujovic, almost every word here is Vujovic.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd like to tender that document, please, as a

10     Prosecution exhibit.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P313, under seal, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, what is the relevance of this last

14     page?

15             MS. PIDWELL:  Sir, that's a -- it's the flip side of the physical

16     document and it's a -- it's the same pattern and name of the first

17     document that we looked at previously, with the same name, Vujovic, which

18     the Prosecution -- it's the Prosecution's position that this document was

19     written by the SJB chief Goran Vujovic.  And so this is a name that's

20     written on both documents in the same manner.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Does the witness recognise the handwriting as

22     being Mr. Vujovic's?

23             Do you -- are you able, sir, to recognise if this indeed is

24     Mr. Vujovic's handwriting?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't claim that this is

Page 2720

 1     his handwriting.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please proceed.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that document as a Prosecution

 5     exhibit, please.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  I thought we had admitted it already.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Very minor point, Ms. Pidwell, inasmuch as that is

 9     but the reverse -- in the original it's but the reverse of a document

10     that's already admitted, isn't it adding a lay of confusion to having

11     that admitted -- for technical reasons it may have to be done the way

12     that you propose -- but just a thought that occurs to me.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm not sure I understand your question,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, if it is the reverse -- if it is nothing more

16     than the reverse of a -- of a document in -- I'm dealing with the

17     original language in which it was written, and the -- as Judge Harhoff

18     would have indicated in the questions to the witness it's a -- looking at

19     it by itself, it's sort of difficult to make sense of what it is.  I'm

20     wondering whether it is adding a lay of confusion ...

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So the whole document has already been -- the

23     obverse, is it, has already been admitted, so why should this be admitted

24     separately?  That's the --

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, that was my confusion, sir.  I hadn't

Page 2721

 1     realised that the whole document had come in previously.  I'd overlooked

 2     that.  I was just bringing Your Honours' --  the actual document is a one

 3     page with a reverse, and I'll bring Your Honours' attention to the second

 4     page and having the witness comment on that.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think Mr. Smith is right.  The previous number

 8     is the marked fragment of it, and now is the whole document with the flip

 9     side included.  Okay.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you for that clarification.

11        Q.   There's just one final area that I want to ask for further

12     clarification on, sir, from your statement.  In the second-to-last

13     line -- paragraph of your statement you talk about a man who was murdered

14     by Duka at the SJB building.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  And I think we need to go into private session just

16     briefly for this, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2722

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MS. PIDWELL:

12        Q.   Sir, we're back in open session, which means we'll try and just

13     to continue with the next -- final few questions without naming the

14     person that we're talking about.  When was the last time that you saw

15     this man?

16        A.   I saw him on the 5th of October when the -- those who would be

17     remaining in prison and those who would be released were separated, and

18     this was on the 5th of October when the International Red Cross

19     intervened for our release.  38 people were separated and left to stay in

20     prison until the 17th of December without any explanation why, and that

21     was the last time that I saw him and, you know, we talked and he just

22     said, "Why me?"  That was our last encounter.

23        Q.   Had he been detained previously; and if so, where ?

24        A.   He was in prison from the 12th of June, 1992, and he was in the

25     student dorm the whole time.

Page 2723

 1        Q.   Do you know if he was beaten while he was at the student dorm?

 2        A.   No, he was not beaten.

 3        Q.   And are you able to comment on his overall state of health when

 4     you saw him on the 5th of October?

 5        A.   Nothing in particular.  How -- what sort of a state of health

 6     could somebody be in after spending four months in prison?  But he looked

 7     fairly fine.  He felt okay.

 8        Q.   And how did you become aware that he had died?

 9        A.   I was released with a number of prisoners on the 5th of October,

10     and some were placed at the Sutomore refugee centre in Montenegro.  And

11     then I was informed -- actually, his wife informed me that he was killed

12     on the 12th of October.

13        Q.   And do you know what happened to his body after his death?

14        A.   Two prisoners were forced to bring his body from the police

15     station to the section where the prisoners were detained.  I must say

16     that those 38 prisoners who remained after the 5th of October were all

17     transferred next to the police station in town.  So it was some 30 metres

18     from the police building.  And when he was killed, two prisoners were

19     forced to bring him to the prison cell where he was still showing signs

20     of life, but shortly after he died.  And this was at 3.00 a.m.  The next

21     day at 11.00 his body -- of course nobody responded to the requests by

22     the other prisoners to help him.  All the guards ran away.  At 11.00 the

23     next day there was an ambulance that took his body to Bileca hospital,

24     where the inquest was carried out by Dr. Babic, and he had to write that

25     it was -- he had to report the cause of death, that the death was of

Page 2724

 1     natural causes.  And when he was being bathed, the body, and before

 2     burial it was established that the body was bruised and that there were

 3     boot marks in certain parts of the body near the kidney area, the chest

 4     area, a part of the head was deformed completely.  I think that there was

 5     a skull fracture in a particular place.  And he was completely bruised

 6     and black and blue from his toes to the top of his head.

 7             According to the statement by the prisoners who had taken him

 8     from the station to the prison, he was in a seated position with his --

 9     he was tied to the chair in the duty operations room at the police

10     station.  And besides the commander, Miroslav Duka, there was also a

11     reserve policeman in that room, Jevtovic, and also a policeman,

12     Nedeljko Kuljic, Ilic Miso, and Ivkovic and his nickname was Beli.  He

13     was a policeman from somewhere else.  I cannot really say who exactly was

14     responsible for causing his death, who struck the fatal blows, but anyway

15     the death was a result of the beating of the -- that person in the

16     station.  And no beating could have been conducted at the station without

17     the knowledge of the chief and without his knowledge, and he often took

18     part in that beating.

19             And when we were in prison there was proof that he would kick

20     someone, and the traces that he left would be characteristic.  But as I

21     said, it is not possible to establish who exactly struck the fatal blows

22     in this case.  He was buried according to the Muslim rites in the town

23     cemetery in Bileca, and the funeral was attended by four persons.  At the

24     time in Bileca there were very few Bosniaks who were able to attend the

25     Muslim funeral rites.

Page 2725

 1        Q.   Sir, you spoke just before about his body being bathed before

 2     burial.  Do you know who did that?

 3        A.   His father and my father.

 4        Q.   And you also spoke about statements by the prisoners who had

 5     taken him from the station to the prison.  When you say "to the prison,"

 6     which -- what do you mean?

 7        A.   I'm thinking of the building that I showed you at the beginning

 8     right next to the Bileca police station which was used as the coal

 9     storage place.  It was about 30 metres from the police station building.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  I have no further questions for this witness.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination -- sorry, cross-examination.

13             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  No questions, Your Honour.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have one.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sir, when you said in the beginning of this

18     particular part of your statement that from the student hall the

19     prisoners were brought to a place some 30 metres away from the police

20     station, you meant then the coal depot?  (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You are now released and we wish

Page 2726

 1     you a safe journey back to your residence.  They will have to lower the

 2     blinds.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the next witness does not have

 6     protective measures so we may need to have a break to change the

 7     technology -- no?  Okay.

 8             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, while we're waiting for the next

 9     witness to come, I would like to provide a very short summary of his

10     evidence if I may.  The next witness is ST-156, Mr. Ramis Smajilovic.

11     Mr. Ramis Smajilovic comes from the municipality of Zvornik.  He was

12     detained in the SUP compound from the 15th of May until the 9th of

13     September, 1992.  The detention camp was run by the police.  During his

14     detention, Mr. Smajilovic and the other detainees were beaten on numerous

15     occasions by members of the police and other individuals who were let in

16     the camp --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down for the

18     interpretation.  Thank you.

19             MR. RINDI:  Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour.

20             Mr. Smajilovic witnessed the death of at least one prisoner.  His

21     family fled when the Bosnian Serb forces took over Zvornik.  The evidence

22     of Mr. Smajilovic, Your Honours, goes to Counts 1, 3, 7 -- 3 to 7, I'm

23     sorry, and 9 of the consolidated indictment.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, counsel.

25             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I have been just advised that the

Page 2727

 1     witness will be here in about 15 minutes.  There have been some technical

 2     problems.  If I may suggest maybe to have a break now.  I'm sorry for

 3     this inconvenience.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise for 15 minutes.

 5             MR. RINDI:  Thank you.

 6                           --- Break taken at 1.00 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

 8             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I believe I have 45 minutes with the

 9     next witness with your leave.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  30 minutes.

12             MR. RINDI:  30 minutes, yes.  Maybe if I can apply for 15 more

13     minutes.  I will endeavour to finish the examination-in-chief in 30

14     minutes, but I might have some questions -- thank you.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16                           WITNESS:  RAMIS SMAJILOVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for

21     coming to this Tribunal.  Can you please give us your name.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ramis Smajilovic.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And your date of birth?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 10 July 1956.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And what is your ethnicity, please?

Page 2728

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosniak.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Are you still living in the area, in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  What is going to happen now -- did you

 6     testify in other cases before this Tribunal?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did in Sarajevo, in the OHR, and

 8     the people were investigators from The Hague.  I provided a statement in

 9     Belgrade and another one at the state court in Sarajevo.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  But it is the first time you come to The

11     Hague?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  What will happen now is that the

14     Prosecutor will ask you some questions because he is the one who called

15     you as a witness.  Afterwards, the Defence will have the opportunity to

16     put questions to you as well and eventually the Bench.  For today we only

17     have something like ten minutes left, so you'll probably have to come

18     back tomorrow.

19                           Examination by Mr. Rindi:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Smajilovic.  Mr. Smajilovic, you signed a

21     statement before representatives of the Prosecution of this Tribunal on

22     the 15th of April, 2004; is this correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Did you have an occasion to go through your statement over the

25     past few days?

Page 2729

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, with your permission I would like to

 3     lead the witness through two changes he made to the statement during the

 4     proofing session.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 6             MR. RINDI:  Could the Court Usher please display on the screen

 7     Exhibit 10073.

 8        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, could you please take a look at the cover page of

 9     your statement which is displayed now on the screen.  Do you have any

10     changes to make?

11        A.   Instead of Ramiz with a z, it should be Ramis with an s.

12             MR. RINDI:  Could the Court Usher please display on the screen

13     e-court page number 2.  And if we could please zoom in paragraph 6 of the

14     B/C/S and paragraph 6 of the B/C/S version.

15        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, I would like to draw your attention to the last

16     sentence of paragraph 6, the sense which begins with:  "There were

17     approximately ..." if you could please read that sentence which continues

18     on the next page and please advise us when you have finished reading this

19     page so that we can turn to the next page.

20        A.   "There were about 100 lined up" --

21             MR. RINDI:  Could we please display the following page, it's page

22     number 3 in e-court.

23        Q.   There is just one word which ends the sentence.

24        A.   "-- lined up soldiers."  And what should be added here is also

25     "policemen, both active and reserve policemen."

Page 2730

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Smajilovic, with the correction you just

 2     specified, does the statement accurately reflect the events that you

 3     described therein?

 4        A.   Correct, and that's the only way it was.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could the witness

 6     please explain why is the -- why the words that he has just added are

 7     missing from the original statement?  How come?  Yesterday we discussed

 8     added information and that added information in the proofing notes cannot

 9     be used.  I'm interested in the foundation, the basis, for this addition.

10     Was it an omission?  A mistake?  Let me not put words into the witness's

11     mouth, but what I would like to know is:  How come the witness is

12     changing such an important part of his statement, the very fundaments of

13     the statement?

14             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I believe this is -- if I may --

15             JUDGE HALL:  I was just going to make the observation that I

16     would have thought, Mr. Cvijetic, that this is a matter for

17     cross-examination.  It is the -- it is unlikely that a previous statement

18     would replicate in every detail what a witness says on another occasion,

19     and this, I would have thought, didn't appear to me to be such a

20     fundamental departure such as engaged us when we were looking at the

21     proofing notes in respect of another witness where the changes were so

22     substantial that the Prosecution was directed to stand the witness down.

23     I -- unless you can -- so it seems to be a matter for cross-examination.

24             MR. RINDI:

25        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, if you were asked questions about the same topic

Page 2731

 1     today, would you give the same answers that you gave in your statement?

 2        A.   Yes, save for the corrections that I've just made.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to intervene,

 4     I must.  Yesterday we discussed this witness and the changes that he

 5     wanted to make; that is the witness, the witness is in front of us now,

 6     if you recall.

 7             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours --

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Allow me just for a moment.  These

 9     are not corrections of some obvious mistakes in the statement, like, for

10     example, the first correction, the spelling of the name or some date.  I

11     believe I am not mistaken if I say that the witness is changing something

12     really important that goes against the allegations, against the

13     indictment.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, if I may intervene at this point.  Your

16     ruling yesterday, that I was to restrict myself to the topics the witness

17     dealt with within his statement, and that's what I am precisely doing.

18     As you're -- as you're well aware during proofing, the very purpose of

19     proofing is to ask the witness to read the statement and ask him if he

20     has any observation or changes to make to the statement, and that's what

21     happened.  This is the very purpose of proofing, so we're not departing

22     from the general procedure here.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, the ruling from yesterday stands.

24     The Prosecution is not allowed to rely on the extra information that was

25     provided in the proofing notes.  And so what the Prosecution is doing now

Page 2732

 1     is just to correct some very few minor details.  But the ruling is the

 2     same, that the Prosecution cannot rely on the extra load of information.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Of course I will accept your

 4     ruling, but I have to express my dissatisfaction because this important

 5     change has been added to a document that will be entered into evidence.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  In any event, it's 1.45, so we will resume tomorrow

 7     morning in this chamber at the -- at 9.00.

 8             The -- Mr. Witness, I -- as would have been -- as you would have

 9     been alerted earlier, because the hearing must adjourn at this hour,

10     we -- it is unfortunate that any unnecessary inconvenience may have been

11     occasioned, but you would return here or you would be -- you would be

12     returned here to begin at 9.00 tomorrow morning, and because you have

13     been sworn as a witness you can't discuss your testimony, you can't talk

14     to the lawyers from either side and you can't discuss your testimony with

15     anybody outside of the chamber.  Do you understand?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of

20                           November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.