Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2864

 1                           Wednesday, 11 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 7     IT-08-91-T.  The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to all.  May I begin by calling for the

 9     appearances, please.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis with

11     case manager Crispian Smith for the OTP.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic representing

14     the Defence of Mico Stanisic.

15             MR. KHAN:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

16     Karim Khan, duty counsel for Mr. Zupljanin; accompanied by the permanent

17     and regular case manager for the accused, Mr. Eric Tully.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, and good morning to everyone

19     in and around the courtroom.

20             The Chamber takes note of the fact that the accused

21     Stojan Zupljanin has chosen to the absent from the proceedings this

22     morning.  I have not been informed of the reasons why Mr. Zupljanin is

23     absent, but the Chamber was advised last night when we adjourned that he

24     might not wish to attend the proceedings in the absence of his appointed

25     counsel.

Page 2865

 1             The Chamber has considered the matter, and we have come to the

 2     conclusion that we shall, nevertheless, proceed with the next witness,

 3     witness ST-177.  Sorry, ST-196.  And the reasons why the Chamber has so

 4     decided are the following:  First of all, we assume that the

 5     examination-in-chief and the cross-examination of the witness today will

 6     not be concluded by the end of the proceedings today, and will,

 7     therefore, continue tomorrow, at which point we assume that counsel will

 8     be back in his seat and that Stojan Zupljanin also will attend the

 9     proceedings.  So there will be ample options for counsel tomorrow to

10     cross-examine the witness.

11             For the purpose of allowing Defence counsel to be fully appraised

12     of the proceedings during this day, the Chamber orders the Registrar to

13     make available to Defence counsel video recordings of the proceedings

14     this morning so as to enable the appointed counsel to familiarise himself

15     with what has transpired from the proceedings today before counsel

16     resumes his seat tomorrow.  And since Mr. Zupljanin anyway is represented

17     today by duty counsel who will be able to take care of his interests to

18     the best of his ability, we have concluded that there is no prejudice

19     made to Mr. Zupljanin by continuing to hear the next witness and so we

20     kindly ask the Registrar to bring in the next witness.

21             The Chamber also takes notice of the fact that counsel for

22     Mr. Zupljanin announced last week that he -- or rather, that the Defence

23     of Mr. Zupljanin probably would not have questions for cross-examination

24     to this witness exceeding 15 minutes, and we will in addition also enable

25     Defence counsel tomorrow when we resume the proceedings to address any

Page 2866

 1     issue arising out of the proceedings today before we continue tomorrow.

 2             So with these precautions, the Chamber believes that we have

 3     taken every possible step to safe-guard the interests of Mr. Zupljanin

 4     and so we think we can proceed from here.

 5             Mr. Hannis.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  For the record and for the

 7     benefit of duty counsel, Mr. Khan, I would indicate this witness was a

 8     policeman in Zvornik.  His testimony relates entirely to Zvornik, he

 9     makes no mention of Mr. Zupljanin, the Autonomous Region of Krajina,

10     Banja Luka, or anything of that.  So I would be surprised if there was

11     anything that arose that would be pertaining to Mr. Zupljanin, but we'll

12     see.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Khan.

14             MR. KHAN:  Yes, indeed, Your Honours, I can confirm, in fact, on

15     the information provided by Mr. Tully, who, of course, is a regular part

16     of Defence team, that in fact it is not anticipated that there will be

17     any question whatsoever for this witness.  The 15 minutes that was

18     indicated, I'm told, was simply a reservoir that could be dipped into if

19     unexpected matters arose in the course of questioning.  But it's

20     anticipated there's no questions at all for the witness that will be

21     called.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.

23             Madam Registrar, let's have the witness into the courtroom.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, next witness then is Petko Panic.

25     ST-196.  He has no protective measures.

Page 2867

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  PETKO PANIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  Could you begin by

 7     telling us your name, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I am Petko Panic.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  And your date of birth is?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 28th of July, 1952.

11             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your occupation or profession?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm currently retired.  I used to

13     work in the MUP.

14             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a Serb.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Have you given evidence before either at the

17     Tribunal or within the region?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not here, but I did testify in

19     Belgrade in the proceedings against Ranko Grujic.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You have been called by the Prosecution

21     in this matter and what will happen is that the side calling you, in this

22     case the Prosecution, will first lead you in your testimony.  And then

23     there will be an opportunity for counsel representing the accused to

24     cross-examine you, if they wish.  Then may follow re-examination by the

25     Prosecution, after which the Bench may have some questions of you.

Page 2868

 1             So before I invite the counsel for the Prosecution to begin, do

 2     you have any questions in terms of what I would have explained?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Panic.  You told us that you are retired from

 9     the MUP.  Can you tell us when you began your police career and for how

10     long you worked as a policeman?

11        A.   I started on the 1st of September, 1973.  And I worked until I

12     retired on the 31st of March, 1996.

13        Q.   And during that time where did you work as a policeman?  What

14     municipality?

15        A.   The entire time in Zvornik municipality, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16        Q.   And what was the highest rank you achieved before retiring?

17        A.   In 1995 -- in late 1994 I was appointed commander, which is to

18     say that throughout 1995 and until March of 1996 I was a commander of a

19     police station.

20        Q.   And as commander of the police station, I take it that was in the

21     Zvornik.  How many men worked under you, approximately?

22        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly because up until the

23     signing of the Dayton Agreement, we still had some reserve forces

24     members, and I would say that there were about 100 members of the general

25     police at the police station.

Page 2869

 1        Q.   Now, in 1991 and early 1992 before the conflict began in Bosnia,

 2     what was your job at the Zvornik police station?

 3        A.   Just before the war I was head of the patrol sector.  I and my

 4     assistant were in charge of the patrol sector covering two or three local

 5     communes.  And then in September 1991 reserve police stations -- or,

 6     rather, reserve police war station were mobilised, and I was assistant

 7     commander for the reserve police station in Zvornik.  Up until the

 8     conflict broke out, both Muslim and Serb policemen served there together.

 9        Q.   And before the conflict broke out, it's my understanding Zvornik

10     municipality was a multi-ethnic community.  Can you tell us approximately

11     what the percentages were of Muslims, Serbs, and others?

12        A.   Yes, it was multi-ethnic.  About 64 per cent of the population

13     and the town of Zvornik were Muslims, and the remaining were Serbs.  And

14     as for the entire municipality it was approximately 50/50 because the

15     neighbouring villages were mostly Serbian.

16        Q.   And how about within the police force itself, what was the split?

17     Did it reflect the same percentage roughly that existed in the general

18     population?

19        A.   I think so.  I don't remember the exact figures, but when it

20     comes to the general police station without traffic police there were

21     about 24 to 25 policemen of Serb ethnicity, and 30 or so were Muslims.

22     This was just before the war broke out, so it was about there.

23        Q.   Now, were you aware of a document that was sent out by

24     Momcilo Mandic on or about the 31st of March, 1992, calling for the Serb

25     police to separate?

Page 2870

 1        A.   I personally did not see that document, but at the Secretariat of

 2     the Interior it was discussed that the Assembly had adopted such a

 3     decision and that a letter had arrived.  A letter to that effect.

 4        Q.   And what happened when you first became aware of that?  What

 5     happened with you and the other Serb policemen in Zvornik SJB?

 6        A.   Well, all the way up until the 6th of April we continued working

 7     together, and prior to that letter of the 6th of April, there was an

 8     attack against the army at a place called Sapna and a warrant officer was

 9     killed there.  And then on the 29th of March, deputy commander of the

10     traffic police mobilised during the night, policemen of Muslim origin, to

11     secure the Secretariat of the Interior.  And then on the following day an

12     inspector came from Tuzla, they had a discussion, and after that we

13     continued working together.

14        Q.   For how much longer did you continue working together?

15        A.   Up until the 6th of April in the evening.

16        Q.   And what happened then to change things?

17        A.   On the 6th of April, I was at work in the evening and then

18     assistant commander Eric, Slavko came to me, he had been to see other

19     policemen who were working, and then came to me and said that commander

20     -- I don't know if he is protected, but commander Dragan Spasojevic had

21     ordered that all Serb policemen withdraw to Karakaj with all of the

22     vehicles that they were using and all materiel and equipment and that

23     they should take all of that to Alhos in Karakaj.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what is Karakaj and where is it in relation to

25     Zvornik town?

Page 2871

 1        A.   Karakaj is an industrial settlement 3 and a half kilometres from

 2     Zvornik in the direction of Bijeljina at the intersection of the road

 3     leading to Tuzla.

 4        Q.   And what was Alhos?  What was Alhos?

 5        A.   Alhos was a textile manufacturing factory before the war.

 6        Q.   So did you and the other Serb policemen then do what Slavko Eric

 7     had directed you to do and go to Alhos with the equipment and vehicles

 8     you could find?

 9        A.   Yes, and there we found commander Spasojevic, president of the

10     municipality Brano Grujic, and we also found there some Arkan's men,

11     Seselj's men, which we didn't know at the time, we learned of this later.

12     And we were given an assignment to set up check-points.  I was with a

13     group at a check-point for Mali Zvornik, and then there was a check-point

14     at the intersection for Tuzla, at the intersection for Sapna, and later

15     on a check-point was set up at the entry point in Zvornik --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the last location.

17             MR. HANNIS:

18        Q.   Could you repeat the name of the last check-point?

19        A.   Intersection for Sapna and then Vidakova Njiva is a settlement at

20     the entry point in Zvornik.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Brano Grujic was there at Alhos as

22     well.  Were there any other political authorities or political body that

23     went to Alhos at the same time you police went there?

24        A.   I think that most of them were from the then Crisis Staff,

25     Jovo Mijatovic, Jovan Ivanovic.  They kept coming and going.  Mitrovic,

Page 2872

 1     and the rest, they were coming and going.  I'm not sure about the times,

 2     but I used to see all of them there.  Cedo.  Stevo Radic, not Cedo.

 3        Q.   Do you recall any other members of the Zvornik Crisis Staff in

 4     addition to Brano Grujic, Jovo Mijatovic, Stevo Radic, and Mr. Mitrovic?

 5        A.   Jovo Ivanovic was a member.  In addition to Mijatovic, there is

 6     also Jovo Ivanovic.  I think that Mile Mijic was the then chief of the

 7     Serb police.  And then Vinko Radic, and I really couldn't remember the

 8     rest.

 9        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.

10             You mentioned Mile Milic -- Mile Mijic as the then chief of the

11     Serb police.  When did he become chief of the Serb police, and who put

12     him in that position, if you know?

13        A.   I think that he was appointed chief immediately after the 31st of

14     March, and the meeting that was held in Zvornik municipality, the meeting

15     of the SDS, that he was then appointed chief of the Serb police, and

16     Dragan Spasojevic was appointed commander.  And Dragan Spasojevic had

17     already been commander of this police station, so then when the split

18     occurred, the posts were -- because Osman Mustafic used to be chief and

19     Dragan Spasojevic commander.  And then Mile Mijic was appointed to his

20     position, and Dragan remained serving as commander.

21        Q.   Do you know who appointed Mijic to that position?

22        A.   I think that at that time it was the political party that

23     appointed him.  I don't know whether the MUP was informed of that, but I

24     think that it was the SDS party that appointed them, or the Crisis Staff,

25     whatever it was called.

Page 2873

 1        Q.   And what had Mr. Mijic done before he was put in that position?

 2     Was he a professional policeman?

 3        A.   No, he was a judge at the municipal court.

 4        Q.   Do you recall approximately how long he remained as the chief of

 5     the Zvornik Serb police?

 6        A.   For a month, month and a half at the most.

 7        Q.   And can you tell us who replaced him.  Who was the next chief?

 8        A.   Milos Pantelic came to replace him.  He was from Loznica, he used

 9     to be commander of traffic police in Loznica.

10        Q.   When Milos Pantelic took up that position, who was selected as

11     commander of the police, if you recall?

12        A.   I don't know whether Dragan Spasojevic remained there for awhile

13     and then he left, but then after Dragan Spasojevic went to a company

14     called Autotransport, he was replaced by --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

16             MR. HANNIS:

17        Q.   Could you repeat the name of the person who replaced

18     Dragan Spasojevic.

19        A.   Marinko Vasilic [realtime transcript read in error "Vasiljevic"].

20        Q.   I know there were several changes in the position.  Who -- well,

21     do you recall approximately how long Milos Pantelic remained as chief

22     before he was replaced?

23        A.   A correction.  I see something on the screen.  It says

24     Marinko Vasiljevic, and it should be Marinko Vasilic.

25        Q.   Thank you for catching that, I didn't notice.

Page 2874

 1        A.   Milos Pantelic remained until June.  Until mid-June, perhaps.  I

 2     know that when we went to Belgrade somebody used to show a document that

 3     was signed by Milos Pantelic on the 6th of June, so perhaps sometime

 4     around the 10th of June.

 5        Q.   Yes, I think we later will see a document on or about the 9th of

 6     June where there is a different person who is listed as the chief.  Who

 7     was the person who followed Milos Pantelic as chief of Zvornik SJB?

 8        A.   After Milos Pantelic, Marinko Vasilic who used to be commander

 9     became chief.

10        Q.   And when Marinko Vasilic moved up to become chief, who became the

11     new commander?

12        A.   Momcilo Maric.  My name was also proposed, but since

13     Momcilo Maric was a senior policeman and he had higher educational

14     qualification than I did, he was appointed and not I.

15        Q.   And one more, I think.  After -- how long did Marinko Vasilic

16     remain in the position of chief?  Until when approximately?

17        A.   Officially until the 27th of June when we expelled Gogic's men,

18     and he remained officially for a day or two.  He was put on the waiting

19     list, and then the other person came.

20        Q.   Your answer is translated as the 27th of June.  But I believe

21     from other documents it was July; is that correct?

22        A.   July, July.  July.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the name of the person who replaced

24     Mr. Vasilic?

25        A.   Milorad Lokanjcevic, also known as Mico Lokanjcevic.

Page 2875

 1        Q.   And who was he?  Where was he from?

 2        A.   Before the war he used to work in the MUP of Kalesija

 3     municipality.  And then from the MUP he was appointed chief and

 4     Branislav Mihajlovic was appointed commander; he was from Bijeljina.

 5        Q.   Thank you, and Lokanjcevic remained as chief throughout the rest

 6     of 1992; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'd like to show you a document this is 65 ter 3024.  It will

 9     come up on the screen in front of you in a second, Mr. Panic.

10             MR. HANNIS:  This is a document dated the 6th of April, 1992.  I

11     don't know if the page numbers are in the correct order.  I think it's on

12     the right-hand side of the e-court page in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Can you see that, Mr. Panic?

14        A.   Let me just see if I can read this.  Yes, I can see that.

15        Q.   It's entitled: A decision on the declaration of state of war on

16     the territory of Zvornik municipality, issued by the Crisis Staff.  Were

17     you aware that such a decision had taken place on or about the 6th of

18     April?

19        A.   No, I wasn't involved in this.  I didn't see this, but I didn't

20     know -- but I did learn about this later from the discussions I had, that

21     there had been a decision on declaring the state of war.  But since I

22     wasn't involved in had the work of the Crisis Staff, I didn't know.

23        Q.   Okay.  Article number 4 in the document indicates that the

24     defence duties will be taken over by the Territorial Defence and some

25     parts of the reserve police.  Did that actually take place, if you know?

Page 2876

 1        A.   This is not clear to me.  In what sense, defence?  At that time

 2     in Zvornik itself, there were no war operations, but there were

 3     check-points.  Now, if the TO asked for a certain number of policemen to

 4     be sent to the front line, then, yes, they were sent them.

 5        Q.   And if you can see item number 6, it indicates that the decision

 6     enters into force on the date of adoption and was to be announced on the

 7     radio stations Podrinje in Loznica and Zvornik radio.  Did you hear any

 8     announcements or were you listening to the radio at that time?

 9        A.   I didn't have much time to follow the radio, but there probably

10     was such announcement.  The police did secure the building of the radio

11     station.  Most likely this was announced on the radio.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 3024.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P323, Your Honours.

16             MR. HANNIS:

17        Q.   Now, you've told us that you, the police and Mr. Grujic and

18     others had moved out to Alhos on about the 6th of April.  What happened

19     there during the next day or two?  What were you doing?

20        A.   During that period of time we just performed our regular police

21     duties.  We manned check-points, we inspected people and vehicles passing

22     through.  And then on the 7th it was announced that they should enter

23     Zvornik, that Arkan's unit would prepare the entry into Zvornik and that

24     50 to 100 people should escort him to secure certain facilities, to

25     provide security to certain facilities.  This is what was discussed.  One

Page 2877

 1     of Arkan's men was called Pejic, and it was discussed with him.

 2             Once I saw Arkan and Brano in front of the Crisis Staff

 3     discussing something.

 4        Q.   A few questions from your last answer.  Mr. Pejic with Arkan's

 5     men, did he have a nickname?

 6        A.   He used to be called Pejo.  He had a Serbian uniform, a blue

 7     camouflage uniform, and he had a rank.  I think he was the general or

 8     whatever.

 9        Q.   And you said you saw Arkan and Brano in front of the

10     Crisis Staff.  Brano, do you mean Mr. Grujic?

11        A.   Yes, Grujic.  On the 7th they held a meeting in the Jezero hotel

12     in Mali Zvornik which was also attended by the president of the Muslim

13     municipality of Zvornik, and they attempted to try to agree how to divide

14     the municipality starting from the river Zlatica toward Karakaj, to

15     remain Serbian, and the rest would be Muslim.  And that initially they

16     would start with joint patrols; however, later when Dragan Spasojevic and

17     Brano returned, we heard that Sanov [as interpreted] slapped all of them

18     including the Muslim representative, and he said there would be no

19     agreement.

20        Q.   It looks like on the transcript the interpreters didn't catch the

21     name of the person you said slapped all of them and said there would be

22     no agreement.  Who was that?

23        A.   Arkan.

24        Q.   So if I understand correctly, on the 7th of April, there was some

25     sort of meeting held in Mali Zvornik, which on the Serb -- in Serbia,

Page 2878

 1     where political representatives of both the Muslim and Serb side were

 2     discussing the possibility of dividing up the municipality in some

 3     fashion?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Or how to make arrangements about joint

 5     patrol which would be doing the work pending the agreement.

 6        Q.   And Arkan apparently was the person or the reason that no such

 7     agreement was reached because he slapped the people who were even

 8     discussing it?

 9        A.   Yes, he beat them all.

10        Q.   Now, did you know who Arkan was before you saw him in Alhos on or

11     about the 6th of April?

12        A.   All I knew about him was what I saw on TV before that.

13        Q.   And when had you seen him on TV before?

14        A.   There were discussions about his being the leader of supporters

15     of the football club Red Star, how he had gone to Croatia during the war,

16     and such-like things.

17        Q.   Had you seen or heard anything about him in relation to a Serb

18     take-over in Bijeljina a week or a few days before?

19        A.   I also heard about that on TV, that it was captured by Arkan's

20     men.  I didn't see him.  I only saw Mirko Blagojevic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The Arkan's men that were in Alhos on the 6th of

22     April, how were they dressed and equipped?

23        A.   They wore camouflage uniforms, but those uniforms were much more

24     modern than ours.  They had automatic weapons, Scorpions.  Some of those

25     weapons I had never even seen before, although I was working for the

Page 2879

 1     police.

 2        Q.   Approximately how many Arkan's men, if you recall?

 3        A.   It depended.  There were different numbers at different times.

 4     They were billeted at Banja Radaljska and came over as necessary and if

 5     necessary, sometimes 5 of them, 10, or 30 of them.  All of that was in

 6     the vicinity, and they had vehicles that would drive them from

 7     Radaljska Banja quite often.

 8        Q.   You mentioned as well Seselj's men.  How were they dressed and

 9     equipped?

10        A.   Most of them were dressed in olive drab camouflage uniforms.  And

11     they had automatic weapons, they had knives, they had cockades on their

12     caps, the Serbian cockades, they also had some patches on their sleeves,

13     et cetera.

14        Q.   Earlier you told me it was decided that Arkan's would lead the

15     way into Zvornik town.  Do you know how it was decided or by whom it was

16     decided that would occur?

17        A.   I don't know, but I think that that was decided between their

18     leadership and the Crisis Staff.  This was done at some higher level into

19     which I had no insight.  All I know is that we were ordered to board the

20     buses and follow Arkan's men.  And I also think that the TO company

21     joined us, so at the entrance to Zvornik we stopped and somebody said two

22     or three policemen and three or four military men are going to secure

23     this building, then we went to the municipal building.  Then we went to

24     hospital to secure all those facilities.  And also we manned check-point

25     at the exit point from Zvornik.

Page 2880

 1        Q.   You said that you -- or you said:  "We were ordered to board the

 2     buses and follow Arkan's men."  Who ordered you to do that?

 3        A.   Station commander.  And I probably -- he received his order from

 4     the chief because the chief was the one who attended the meetings at the

 5     Crisis Staff.

 6        Q.   And the commander on that day was Dragan Spasojevic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What happened when you all got into Zvornik that day?  And first

 9     of all, tell me which day was this that Arkan's and the rest of you

10     entered Zvornik?

11        A.   I think it was the 8th of April upon our entry into Zvornik, but

12     I saw in my previous statement that there was a mistake.  It says

13     technical school centre, but it should be secondary technical centre.

14     Anyway, I saw three bodies, and then further on I saw one or two bodies.

15     And later on I heard that it was confirmed that two bodies had been found

16     there.

17             I disembarked from the bus near the Radio Zvornik building, and I

18     stayed there to secure it.

19        Q.   Based on what you saw and heard, was there any serious resistance

20     by the Muslims to the entry into Zvornik?

21        A.   I don't think so.  When they heard that Arkan's men and Seselj's

22     men were coming, they were already leaving the town and heading towards

23     Kula Grad, so there were only a few people left behind.

24        Q.   The bodies you say you saw, can you tell us any more about them?

25     How they were dressed, whether you could see any wounds on them, whether

Page 2881

 1     or not they had any weapons.

 2        A.   No, we just passed by in the bus.  They were on the pavement

 3     there.  Later on I found out that Nale [phoen] Fahrudin was the one who

 4     -- one of them, and that he had been working at the staff before the war.

 5        Q.   And what clothes were these bodies wearing?  Uniforms?  Civilian?

 6        A.   All those who were by the school were dressed in civilian

 7     clothes, blue jeans, and things like that.

 8        Q.   Any weapons?

 9        A.   I didn't notice any.

10        Q.   Now what did you and the other policemen do after Arkan's and the

11     Seselj's men entered Zvornik and obtained control of some of the major

12     buildings?

13        A.   We were instructed to secure vital facilities and to patrol the

14     town.  But whenever we went on patrol, there was always one or two

15     Arkan's men with us.  We were not able to enter the SUP building because

16     it was already devastated.  After Arkan's men entered the SUP, they took

17     away all the documents, all the equipment, and everything was broken and

18     destroyed; therefore, we stayed at the hotel.  But that happened later.

19        Q.   Approximately how long did you remain in Zvornik securing

20     buildings and patrolling?

21        A.   I think that on the first or the second night we heard that

22     Arkan's men fled or withdrew to Radaljska Banja without any agreement

23     with the staff, and that Seselj men did the same, meaning that we were

24     the only ones who remained in town.  Then we withdrew as well, and we

25     went to Alhos.  We crossed the bridge to Mali Zvornik, and then we went

Page 2882

 1     on to Alhos in Karakaj.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  How long did you stay at Alhos?  How many days or

 3     weeks?

 4        A.   Not long.  When we arrived in Alhos, we started again wearing our

 5     JNA caps with a five-pointed star.  Then a man from Seselj's unit came

 6     and he started beating one of our fellow police officers saying, Why do

 7     you need these stars for.  Then Milos Milanovic, a policeman, pointed a

 8     gun at him and chased him out.  We got dressed, and we went to the

 9     village of Celopek to a football playground near the house of

10     Slavko Eric.

11        Q.   What was your purpose for going to Celopek?

12        A.   We felt safer there because there were neither Muslims nor

13     paramilitary forces there.  We went there to see how to proceed, and we

14     agreed eventually that we should all go home.  Those who lived further

15     than Kozluk were afraid to going through Kozluk, and, therefore, we were

16     thinking of going through Mali Zvornik and Loznica.  However, after some

17     time, President Brano Grujic came, and after talking to him, we agreed to

18     go back to Zvornik again, and that is what we did.

19             Dragan and Brana and maybe somebody else went to Radaljska Banja

20     and reached an agreement for Arkan's men to return as well.

21        Q.   Where did you go then, into Zvornik, into the old SJB building,

22     or somewhere else?

23        A.   We would only come to provide security, but we billeted in

24     Karakaj.  Whether it was in the standard building or some place else, I

25     don't know.

Page 2883

 1        Q.   You told us about the Alhos building before.  What was the

 2     Standard building?  What was Standard?

 3        A.   That was a newly constructed building for the Standard company,

 4     but they never moved in.  Later it was used by the army as its barracks,

 5     and nowadays it houses a university department.

 6        Q.   And both of those buildings are in the Karakaj area.  Are they --

 7     can you tell us where they were approximately vis-a-vis the Karakaj

 8     Technical School?

 9        A.   Alhos is situated on the left-hand side if you watch -- if you

10     look downstream the Drina, opposite Zvornik and Bijeljina on the

11     right-hand side.  And the Standard is also on the right-hand side near

12     Zvornik in the direction of Bijeljina, by the road.

13        Q.   And their position as relates to the Karakaj Technical School,

14     how far away?

15        A.   As the crow flies let's say some 50 metres between Alhos and

16     technical school.  And as for Standard, I should say about 1 kilometre.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I want to show you another document from April 1992.

18             MR. HANNIS:  This is 65 ter 3084.  And ask what you know about

19     this one.  It will be up on the screen in a second.

20        Q.   And it's entitled: A decision by the interim government of

21     Zvornik, signed by President Grujic.  It's entitled:

22             "To give authority to the Loznica and Mali Zvornik police

23     stations to take civilians into custody and hand them over to the Zvornik

24     SJB."

25             Did you ever see that document before?

Page 2884

 1        A.   No, I haven't, but I knew of it.  And I know that people had been

 2     brought into the Mali Zvornik station and taken into custody.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you a couple of questions about it.  Mali Zvornik and

 4     Loznica were in Serbia, in the Republic of Serbia, not in Bosnia;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, in Serbia.

 7        Q.   Can you help me out, legally how was President Grujic of the

 8     interim government of Zvornik in Bosnia able to give authority to police

 9     in Serbia to do anything?

10        A.   I don't think that he gave direct authorities to the police.  He

11     rather agreed with the presidents of those municipalities.  Because at

12     the time it was considered still to be Yugoslavia.  So I don't know

13     exactly what the legal basis was.

14        Q.   Am I right, is the purpose of this to get military-aged Serbs who

15     may have gone across the river back into Bosnia and have them help you

16     out?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, in order for them to join the military units.

18        Q.   And I think you told us you were aware of this and that you know

19     that that did happen sometimes, that some local Bosnian Serbs who had

20     gone across the river were actually arrested and brought back to Zvornik?

21        A.   Yes, yes, they were.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I would tender --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once a full bus was brought from

24     Serbia and they were immediately deployed on the front line whether in

25     Trnovo or in Bandjerka or some place else.

Page 2885

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I would tender 3084 a this

 2     time.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P324, Your Honours.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Next I would like to show you an exhibit

 6     that's already in evidence.  This is P141.

 7        Q.   Witness, this is a document from the Bijeljina CSB chief

 8     Predrag Jesuric, dated the 21st of April, 1992.  And I just want to ask

 9     your comment about an entry on the first page, if we can go down near the

10     bottom, there's a heading Zvornik --

11             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, I guess in the Serbian we have to go to page

12     2 at the top.  Page 2 of the text, thank you.

13        Q.   You see at the top there, it says, "Zvornik SJB Chief Mijic

14     reported over the phone" -- it says "... the town is under Serbian

15     militia and reserve TO control, and the town is building cleaned."

16             Is that consistent with the situation on 21st April 1992, as you

17     saw it?

18        A.   I think yes, because as I said even when we were entering

19     Zvornik, there was no resistance, and then later on there was no fighting

20     in town itself.  As far as the police was concerned, they started doing

21     their regular duties of securing facilities.  All these paramilitary

22     units and army units were separate from each other, and they were mostly

23     deployed in the suburbs of Zvornik.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Next I'd like to have you look at 65 ter

25     number 2121.  With the usher's help I can hand you a hard copy, that way

Page 2886

 1     we won't have to turn the page.

 2        Q.   Mr. Panic, this purports to be a list of active policemen in the

 3     Zvornik police station, dated 21 April 1992.  I think you saw this during

 4     proofing.  Do you recognise the names on that list?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And I think you pointed out a couple of things regarding the

 7     translation.  Number 4 Miljanovic, the English translation says

 8     deputy commander, but I think you told me it should be something else.

 9        A.   No, number 4 is Miljanovic, assistant commander; and number 2,

10     Petko Panic, deputy commander.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And for numbers 8 through 15, there's an abbreviation

12     VPS is the English translation, and it's suggested that meant military

13     police station, but I think you told me VPS stands for something else.

14     Could you tell us what that was.

15        A.   No, VPS stands for the patrol sector leader within a police

16     station.  They each cover three or four local communes, and this leader

17     would have one or two assistants.  So these are the titles in the police,

18     not the ranks.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, with those corrections noted, I would

21     tender 2121.  I can submit this for CLSS to have a corrected translation,

22     but I think the record read together with the document accurately

23     reflects it.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P325, Your Honours.

Page 2887

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   And finally before you take it away, could you see the signature

 3     or the name on the last page?  Who was the chief at the time?

 4        A.   Milos Pantelic, the chief.  But there's no signature and there's

 5     no stamp either.  And he says here that I was deputy commander, whereas

 6     at the time I was assistant commander.  Maybe I stood in for Maric

 7     unofficially, but officially I was not his deputy.

 8        Q.   I would like to show you a related document.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Number 2113.  65 ter 2113.  [Microphone not

10     activated] Sorry, Your Honours, I've got to correct the B/C/S page.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. HANNIS:

13        Q.   These are some payroll sheets from Zvornik, and I'm trying to

14     find the one that pertains to you and the other police.

15        A.   It was on the monitor before.

16        Q.   I apologise, Witness.  Let me return to that one after the break.

17     And I'll move to something else for the moment.

18             Now, in addition to the police, you've told us about there was a

19     Crisis Staff and told us who some of the members were.  What other

20     organisations were in Zvornik at the time on the Serb side?  What about

21     the Territorial Defence, can you tell us --

22        A.   There was the People's Defence Staff and an army brigade.

23        Q.   And do you recall who was head of the Territorial Defence staff

24     in April 1992?

25        A.   At the time he was known to us as Marko Pavlovic and later on

Page 2888

 1     during the trial in Belgrade, I learned that his name was Branko Popovic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And who was he, where was he from, how did he come to

 3     be in Zvornik in the Territorial Defence, if you know?

 4        A.   How he came there, I don't know, but I do know that he came from

 5     Serbia.  Now, who had brought him there, I don't know.  People were

 6     saying that he was from Novi Sad or from Zrenjanin, I don't know.

 7        Q.   Do you know how this man who came from Serbia got to be at the

 8     head of the Territorial Defence in Zvornik?  Who put him in that

 9     position, if you know?

10        A.   Most likely civilian authorities from Zvornik because no ordinary

11     person could have appointed him or invited him to come there.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What about the army, the JNA had been the Army of

13     Yugoslavia that was -- or the People's Army, but what happened after the

14     split and the conflict began, were there any elements of the army that

15     were working with you on the Serb side in April and May before the VRS

16     was created?

17        A.   Various groups came from Serbia.  A group with Zuca Vuckovic.

18     Then there was a group that came with Niski, so-called Niski.  And then

19     there was the Pivarski group.  Then there was Simo Chetnik.  There were

20     White Eagles who held Snagovo.  So there were a lot of these paramilitary

21     units in Zvornik.  Later on some of them joined the TO and some joined

22     the army, but for the most part they worked on their own, independently.

23        Q.   And after mid-May when the VRS, the Bosnian Serb army was

24     created, were there elements of that in Zvornik municipality?

25        A.   Yes, there was, but I don't remember whether it was a brigade or

Page 2889

 1     some other unit, but their commander was Colonel Vasilic and later on

 2     Colonel Blagojevic.  And at one point in time Zuca took over by force so

 3     that he was a brigade commander for awhile, and he was busy constructing

 4     an armoured train, just didn't have a chance to complete it.

 5        Q.   You mentioned Colonel Vasilic, is that the same last name as one

 6     of your SJB chiefs?

 7        A.   Same last name but not the same person.  I don't know his first

 8     name.  But he had been an officer back in the Army of Yugoslavia, as was

 9     Blagojevic.

10        Q.   I want to mention some other names of army officers and ask you

11     if they were in the Zvornik municipality during May, June, July of 1992.

12     How about a Colonel Ilic?  I think his first name was Dragutin?

13        A.   It's possible.  I didn't see him, so I don't remember him.  I

14     think that there was Dragan Obrenovic there, he used to be there

15     previously too.  He had his own unit there as did Mirko Studeni who was a

16     captain at the time.  They used to train reserve forces at Vranje and

17     Celopek.

18        Q.   How about a man named Vinko Pandurevic?

19        A.   He came later on after the establishment.  Dragan and Studeni had

20     been there earlier before him.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I don't know if this is an appropriate

23     time for our first break.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  20 minutes.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 2890

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  I'll be trying to use 65 ter 2113 again, and I think

 4     I need page 2 of the B/C/S to correspond with page 1 of the English.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It was the one, wasn't it, where the witness's

 6     name appeared?

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. HANNIS:

10        Q.   Mr. Panic, I'm going to try again with those pay sheets.  I think

11     I've got the right page now.

12             MR. HANNIS:  If we could shrink the B/C/S page down so we can see

13     across the width of the page and be sure to include the first five names

14     on the list.

15        Q.   This is a document dated the 21st of August and purports to be

16     the list for payments of salaries for July 1992 for the public security

17     station in Zvornik.  You recognise that document, and the names on the

18     list?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And I take it that is you at number 3?  And that was your salary

21     in July of 1992?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   A series of names here, I think that goes to a total of about

24     200.  Is that consistent with the number of people who were working and

25     being paid by the police in Zvornik in July 1992?

Page 2891

 1        A.   At that time most probably.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would tender 2113.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  To show what, Mr. Hannis?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, to show who were working for the police

 5     and being paid by the police.  I have another document I am going to show

 6     relating to salaries being paid to other persons.  It, I think, is

 7     important to identify who was working for which organ and being paid by

 8     which organ.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P326, Your Honours.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Next could we look at 65 ter

12     number 1391.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Panic, you'll recall your salary that we just looked at

14     I think was 18.000 dinars?

15        A.   Yes, I saw that.

16        Q.   This next one is document regarding salaries for the TO for the

17     month of May 1992.  Do you recognise any of the names on that list?

18        A.   I recognise a lot of them.

19        Q.   Can you tell us which ones?

20        A.   Pavlovic, Marko; Sekanic, Aco; Tomic, Milos; Petkovic, Milos.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And we see that the salary for the month of May for

22     Marko Pavlovic was 130.000 dinars.  The document also lists number of

23     days in combat.  Were you aware of the TO and these individuals being

24     involved in combat operations during the month of May in Zvornik?

25        A.   I don't think this is right.  Most of these people were at the

Page 2892

 1     staff.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Could we look at page 3 of the English, and I think

 3     it's page 3 of the B/C/S as well.  If we can have the entire list shown

 4     on the screen for the witness.  And English on the right-hand side as

 5     well.

 6        Q.   Again, this is a list of members of the TO staff including some

 7     support personnel, I would say, typist, cleaning, coffee lady.  And it

 8     appears that coffee lady is being paid 60.000 dinars, more than three

 9     times the amount you were paid as an assistant commander for the police.

10     Were you aware of that?

11        A.   I didn't know what their salaries were, but I can see that it was

12     much higher than mine.

13        Q.   Prior to the war, just as a matter of curiosity, do you know what

14     the pay levels were in the Territorial Defence versus pay levels in the

15     police?  Or did you have any information about that?

16        A.   They were always lower.  It depends on the post, of course, but

17     if it was the same educational background, then lower.

18        Q.   Who was lower, police was lower than the TO or vice-versa?

19        A.   TO, because we had accelerated years of service and 30 per cent

20     were added to our salary as a result of that.  And that's why our

21     salaries were always higher.

22        Q.   Do you have any idea of why in May of 1992 the TO would be paid

23     so much more than the police?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 2893

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender 1391.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Again, Mr. Hannis, what do you wish the Chamber

 3     to elicit from this document?

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I may not be able to fully explain that

 5     to you until all the evidence is in.  And in that case, perhaps I should

 6     mark it for identification.  But I think the fact that this gross

 7     disproportionality after the war with this group, with this individual,

 8     may tie into explain why certain people were in certain positions, why

 9     certain crimes, we say, were covered up to protect certain individuals.

10     I think this joint criminal enterprise as charged can be explained, in

11     part, by some of the criminal conduct of people that we allege are

12     members of it.

13             If that's not enough for you now, then I ask that it be marked

14     for identification, and I'll try to make a further tie-in and connection

15     later on.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  We will mark it for identification.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P327, marked for identification,

19     Your Honours.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'd like to next look at

21     what has already been marked for identification as 1D67.

22        Q.   Mr. Panic, this is a document dated, I think, the 4th of May,

23     1992, from the provisional government of Zvornik.  Do you recognise the

24     stamp on that document?

25        A.   This is the seal of the Executive Board of the Zvornik Municipal

Page 2894

 1     Assembly.

 2        Q.   And it's an order for payment of 10.000 dinars for the needs of

 3     the special unit volunteers from Loznica.  The money to be taken over by

 4     Zuca.  Were you aware in 1992 that Zuca was being paid by the government

 5     of Zvornik?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   They were paid by the Zvornik government, Zuco's unit was, and

 9     the MUP paid for another group.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, based on what a occurred before, when

12     I think the Defence showed this to witness ST-144, we had identification

13     of the handwritten signature.  I would now move to tender this into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Is that the number it has now?

17             Okay.  It's 1D67 in evidence then?

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  A couple of more I would like to show

20     you --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry.

23        Q.   I would like to show you next 65 ter 2717.

24             This relates to a couple of other groups you mentioned earlier in

25     your testimony as having appeared in Zvornik who eventually, later, you

Page 2895

 1     said, joined the TO of the army.  This is a conclusion by the temporary

 2     government regarding the level of compensation for members of the

 3     Territorial Defence for the month of May.  It says the members will get

 4     80.000 dinars.

 5             If you could look it at --

 6             MR. HANNIS:  It's English page 2, and I'm looking for

 7     paragraph 7.  I think it is on the page for the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Can you look at paragraph 7, Mr. Panic.  Do you see that last

 9     sentence there where it says "... the special task units under the

10     command of Nisko and Pivarski all get 100.000 dinars."  Do you you know

11     what these special task units were assigned to do or were doing in May of

12     1992?

13        A.   I don't know about them when they joined the TO.  And as for

14     Lieutenant Vladan Martic, I know he was in the military police.  And I

15     know of Captain Miloje, he had some reconnaissance units that were

16     stationed in Glinica.  And as for Niski and Pivarski when they joined in,

17     I don't know.  For awhile they were independent, and then for some period

18     of time they were with the army, but as for exactly when, I don't know.

19     Now, judging by this document, they were paid by the interim government.

20        Q.   But in terms of where they were and what they were doing in

21     Zvornik municipality, did you see or hear or otherwise get information

22     about what they were doing?  Were they just sitting around the

23     Territorial Defence command office?  Were they out in the field?  You

24     must have some knowledge or information about what they were doing that

25     you can share with us.

Page 2896

 1        A.   This unit of Pivarski spent most of its time in a town called

 2     Drinjaca in Zvornik municipality.  I didn't go up there at the time

 3     during the war, but they were in Drinjaca most of the time.  That's some

 4     14 kilometres from Zvornik in the direction of Sarajevo.  As for Niski,

 5     he was mostly in Scemlija, in Snagovo, in Karakaj, the suburb areas.

 6     Now, as to what he did there, I don't know.  I know that he used to strip

 7     even some Serbs naked and force them to join the army in Celopek and

 8     Scemlija and some other locations.

 9        Q.   You were aware that in late April, May, June, even in July that

10     there were certain combat operations in the field in Zvornik municipality

11     where Muslim villages were liberated, to use a word used by some, where

12     they were asked to surrender their weapons and then the people were moved

13     out, the men were detained, women and children were moved out of the

14     municipality?  That was going on, wasn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And which forces or which units among all these we've been

17     talking about were engaged in doing that?

18        A.   In most of the cases all of them took part, especially Niski's

19     group and Pivarski's group.  They used to capture people and then set up

20     prisons.  And then later on there were court orders, at least that's how

21     it should be, to the effect that these facilities were taken over by

22     police, and security was from then on provided by police.

23             And then from Bijeli Potok and Djulici some 5- or 6.000 women and

24     children were moved out, and then about 700 men were detained in the

25     technical school centre in Karakaj.

Page 2897

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Before I follow-up on that question, could I tender

 2     2717, the provisional government decision about the amount of payment for

 3     certain units.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Admitted as Exhibit P328, Your Honours.

 6             MR. HANNIS:

 7        Q.   Do you recall and can you tell us some of the places where these

 8     detention facilities were being set up to take in the people that were

 9     being captured by Pivarski, Niski, and others?

10        A.   The prison was in Zvornik in the administrative building

11     Novi Izvor and in the misdemeanour court.  Then there was another prison

12     facility in Ekonomija, and then also at Ciglana, the brickworks in

13     Novi Izvor, and then later on there was one in the technical school

14     centre in Karakaj.  And as for Kozluk settlement, everybody was moved out

15     of there via the Drina River and sent to Subotica.  And then there was

16     also a detention facility at the Dom in Celopek.

17        Q.   Thank you.  As I understood your answer, these detention

18     facilities were initially set up by those that were making the arrest or

19     making the captures and bringing these people in, but I understood from,

20     I think, from your prior statement or prior testimony that eventually the

21     police came to be asked or ordered to serve as guards at those

22     facilities; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  Most of them except for the technical school centre, which

24     was held by a unit called Karakaj Company.  As for Novi Izvor, Celopek,

25     Ekonomija, all of that was taken over by police member.  Now, whether

Page 2898

 1     this was done pursuant to a court order or pursuant to an order issued by

 2     their immediate superior, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

 3        Q.   The Karakaj company at KTS, the technical school, what were they?

 4     Were they a police formation, a TO formation?  To whom did they belong?

 5        A.   Initially before the Army of Republika Srpska was established, it

 6     was the TO of Karakaj.  And later on there was a Karakaj company with the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   You started to mention, or I think you referred to an earlier

 9     answer about the Bijeli Potok or Djulici.  Can you tell us what that was

10     or where that was?

11        A.   These are places, some call them Bijeli Potok, some call them

12     Djulici.  It's 7 kilometres from Karakaj in the direction of Sapna.

13        Q.   And what happened there?  Did you have some involvement in the

14     activity that took place there?

15        A.   Yes, I did.  I think it was the 1st of June when Commander

16     Marinko Vasilic called me to come to his office and told me that the

17     Crisis Staff had made arrangement with the politicians of the Muslim

18     Zvornik for the citizens from Klisa and the surrounding places to go down

19     to Bijeli Potok and that they were asking to be allowed to go to the

20     Muslim territory.  For that purpose, trucks were to be made at their

21     disposal to take them from Kalesija.  So he ordered me to select about 10

22     or 15 police officers, and he told me that my only task was to help them

23     board these vehicles, whereas all the rest would be done by the army.

24     They would take them out of Klisa, and the trucks were going to be

25     waiting there and they will continue towards Memici.

Page 2899

 1        Q.   Tell the Judges what happened when you got there.  What did you

 2     see?  What did you do?

 3        A.   When I came to Bijeli Potok, there was a column of men on the

 4     asphalt road.  At the head of the column was my colleague Agan Lupic, a

 5     fellow police officer who used to work with me before.  On the left in a

 6     big field were a crowd of women, elderly men, and children.  They were

 7     separated from the column of the men.  And that every three or four

 8     metres a soldier was standing.

 9             When I arrived I greeted my colleague Dupic [as interpreted], and

10     he asked me, Petko, which truck am I to board?  And he said, Since we are

11     going to Memici, shall I board the first truck?  And I said yes.  And the

12     rest followed him.  They climbed onto the trucks.

13        Q.   And just to clarify, Agan Lupic was a Muslim?

14        A.   Agan, yes, he was a Muslim policeman in Zvornik.

15        Q.   And did anything unusual happen while the men were getting on to

16     the trucks?  Did you hear anything?

17        A.   After a while I heard shots coming from a bridge in Bijeli Potok.

18     I went over there to see what was happening, but then one soldier told me

19     that this was going on up there below the houses where we were securing

20     the area, and don't go there.  All we had to do, as I was told, was to

21     assist with loading the people into the truck, so I went back.

22             When I came to the trucks, one of the policemen told me that

23     Dragan Spasojevic had come and took Agan Lupic from the truck and he

24     drove him to Karakaj.  I asked how did he do that, and he told me he put

25     him in a car.  The people were being loaded on to the trucks.  And after

Page 2900

 1     that they started loading women, old people, and children who were on the

 2     left-hand side on this meadow.

 3             So by the evening, everybody was on board the trucks, and I

 4     returned to the hotel with my policemen and reported to commander Vasilic

 5     - and there was Niko Miljanovic there as well - that all the citizens of

 6     Klisa had left for Memici.

 7             About two or three hours later, I heard that 700 people remained

 8     behind in the technical school centre.  One or two days later, I heard

 9     that the shots that we had heard in Bijeli Potok meant that the army had

10     killed about five or six Muslim civilians.

11        Q.   Who did you hear that from, if you remember?

12        A.   I couldn't tell you because I didn't know any of those soldiers

13     in this army, because one day beforehand, they had arrived from Brnjaca

14     in Zivinice municipality, and they immediately took those houses, Muslim

15     houses.  Only in Belgrade during the court proceedings Marinko stated,

16     who was the commander at the time, that he had gone to the TO staff in

17     order to inquire why these men were kept and that somebody, he didn't say

18     who, that they were kept there for exchange because in Tuzla there were

19     4.000 Serbs detained in a stadium waiting to be exchanged.  But I only

20     learned about that in Belgrade.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let me clarify a few things that are aren't fully

22     clear to me.  What was the unit at Bijeli Potok that was there in control

23     of the Muslims that were going to be put on buses and trucks?  Who were

24     they?  Whose command were they under?  Was this a VRS unit?

25        A.   Yes.  Already the VRS was established at that time, and there was

Page 2901

 1     a so-called Brnik company commanded by Captain Mijatovic or Mitrovic, I'm

 2     not sure about his surname.  Then there was also the Petkovac company

 3     from Zvornik municipality; Grbavac company also; and on the spot there,

 4     on the right-hand side where the loading of people was taking place, I

 5     saw elements of the Celopek company who I think was commanded or led by a

 6     prominent member of the SDS party, Ostoja Ikonic.

 7        Q.   Ostoja Ikonic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And Agan who was taken away to Karakaj by Dragan Spasojevic, do

10     you know what happened to him?  Did you ever see him again?

11        A.   No, I haven't.  I heard that Dragan first took him to his house

12     in Mali Zvornik, then in the evening he took him to the municipal

13     building in Zvornik, and probably the Crisis Staff discussed with him

14     whether he should go to Memici and Tuzla to negotiate the exchange, and

15     that they drove him as far as Memici.  That's what I heard.

16        Q.   Is he still alive, do you know?

17        A.   I heard that he is still alive, living in Tuzla.

18        Q.   And what happened to the 700 or so men who were taken to Karakaj,

19     to the technical school?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, may I ask -- may I ask, do we have an

21     exact precise date on the events in Bijeli Potok?

22             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I don't think we do.  I

23     haven't asked that question.

24        Q.   Witness, can you tell us approximately what date this occurred,

25     when you went to Bijeli Potok?

Page 2902

 1        A.   The 1st of June.  The 1st of June.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:

 4        Q.   Then I think you told us it was during a time when

 5     Marinko Vasilic was commander?

 6        A.   Yes, he was the commander.  And Milos was the chief.

 7        Q.   And could you tell us, if you know, what became of those 700 or

 8     so Muslim men who were taken to Karakaj Technical School?

 9        A.   Two or three days later, rumours started circulating around the

10     town that there were killings being committed, that the paramilitary

11     units, Zuco's men and Repic's men were killing people in the technical

12     school centre.  That they were taking them down to the slaughter-house

13     where they were executing them in front of the slaughter-house.  And I

14     believe that the majority of those men was indeed killed there.  Maybe a

15     small number of them were transferred to the prison in Batkovici.

16             So far as the killing sites or perhaps even burial sites are

17     concerned, I don't know who decided this, whether it was the staff or

18     hygiene and sanitation commission made up of a number of members,

19     including Petar Tanic, a policemen who kept records of those either by

20     name, if they had an ID, or just a John Doe if they didn't.  And there

21     was also Milan Radic who was a truck driver, and he was probably taking

22     these bodies from the technical school centre in his truck to be buried

23     somewhere.

24        Q.   When you mentioned the slaughter-house, is that the one that's

25     known as Gero's Slaughter-House or Gero's Slaughter-House?

Page 2903

 1        A.   Yes.  It's a slaughter-house by the Drina River.  I don't

 2     remember his name.  He was called Gero, and had he this slaughter-house

 3     before the war.

 4        Q.   Were you -- in addition to hearing about these killings, did you

 5     have information about some killings of detained Muslims that happened at

 6     Celopek Dom?

 7        A.   Not directly.  The reserve station in Celopek was run by

 8     Cvjetko Jovic [phoen], and he told me on more than one occasion that he

 9     couldn't stand it any longer there.  Whenever Repic appeared with a black

10     hat, a long rain coat, and a knife in his hand, which made all the guards

11     move away, and that he was coming to the Dom in order to cut off people's

12     parts of bodies, that he was killing them, taking money from them, and

13     that they didn't dare confront him.

14             I told him you should send a report to Commander Marinko.  And I,

15     myself, are going to -- am going to inform him as well.  If you don't

16     feel secure, just try to survive because Repic didn't care whether he was

17     killing Serbs or Muslims.  After that he was arrested either by a special

18     unit or someone else because we couldn't do that.  And also Zuca was

19     arrested by a special unit.

20        Q.   Some questions about that.  Can you tell me approximately when

21     this was that you had your first conversation with Cvjetko Jovic about

22     Repic and what was happening at Celopek Dom?

23        A.   No, I'm not able to give you any date.  It's been a long time

24     ago.  But I know that Miko Miljanovic drove those men away because Slavko

25     -- and those were mostly people from Divic.  They were supposed to be

Page 2904

 1     taken to Volovska Luka, and when he took them there, some remained there,

 2     whereas the others returned.  Slavko asked Miko, because he was tired, to

 3     drive them to Celopek because that's what the commander had ordered him.

 4     Maybe Miljanovic would be able to give you a date.

 5             That's all I heard, and therefore I'm not able to give you any

 6     specific date.

 7        Q.   To help narrow down a possible date, you said that you told

 8     Cvjetko he should send a report to Commander Marinko.  So it must have

 9     been during the time when Vasilic was serving as commander; correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes, commander.  It was sometime in June.  I don't know.

11        Q.   Thank you, that is helpful.  You said that the guards, when they

12     saw Repic coming, they would -- they didn't dare confront him.  Were

13     these police or reserve police?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't catch the

15     answer.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of them were reserve police

17     because active duty police were not trained in combat activities.  Those

18     were regular and ordinary policemen, and you cannot confront anyone who

19     did so many atrocities or things that he did in Croatia and elsewhere;

20     therefore, they didn't dare confront him.

21             MR. HANNIS:

22        Q.   Okay.  And you said the people who were detained there were

23     mostly from Divic.  Do you know when the Muslim people from Divic had

24     been captured and detained, approximately?

25        A.   I don't know at what time.  But in the beginning they were

Page 2905

 1     detained in Divic at the playground where they were guarded by the

 2     Karakaj company.  Now, when Slavko received an order to take them to

 3     Volovska Luka, I don't know about that.

 4        Q.   From your job before the war, did you have occasion to know

 5     personally some of the people from Divic?

 6        A.   I knew most of the people in Divic, but I don't know who was

 7     detained.  Some were detained even before the conflict broke out, and

 8     then they crossed over to Mali Zvornik.  For example, I knew a man who

 9     everybody called "Francuz," meaning the Frenchmen, I know that he was

10     detained there.

11        Q.   You mentioned that you told Cvjetko to report to Marinko Vasilic

12     about what was happening in Celopek, and you said that you would inform

13     him as well.  Did that happen?  First of all, do you know if Cvjetko

14     reported; and secondly, did you tell Marinko?

15        A.   I think that Cvjetko informed Marinko, and so did I.  And I have

16     a confirmation for that at the trial in Belgrade when Marinko denied

17     knowing anything.  However, when the judge read out to him Cvjetko's

18     statement about his coming to the school for meeting, he says, Yes, I did

19     come to -- for this meeting.  And then the judge asked me, Now what do

20     you think?  And he said, I think he is telling the truth because he

21     admitted coming to the meeting to this school.

22        Q.   And do you recall any details about when you personally informed

23     him?  Did that take place face to face, and what response, if any, did he

24     make when you told him about it?

25        A.   I don't recall.  That was 17 years ago.  Whether anyone was with

Page 2906

 1     him or with me, I cannot remember at the moment.

 2        Q.   I need to press you a little bit on that.  You knew some of those

 3     people who were being detained there, and you had heard what sounds to me

 4     like pretty scarey information about what was happening with Repic.  You

 5     don't recall what Marinko said when you told him about this?

 6        A.   I honestly don't remember.  I think that he said something to the

 7     effect that he was going to inform someone and that some dispatch was

 8     written to that effect, but I'm not sure.  I think he sent a dispatch to

 9     Bijeljina.  Since we sent a dispatch on such trivial incidents such as

10     chasing out Gogic, I'm sure that a dispatch describing such a major event

11     would have gone out.

12        Q.   You mentioned Gogic, that takes me to the next thing I wanted to

13     ask you about.  You describe several of the formations that were in

14     Zvornik.  Who was Gogic and who were his men?

15        A.   I think his first name was Milorad Gogic.  There were 11 or 12

16     members from Loznica, from Seselj's party.  Initially when they came into

17     Zvornik they were there, but then they left after awhile.  And

18     Milos Pantelic was appointed chief.  They were brought again and were

19     given police uniforms, and they were paid by the police.

20        Q.   And what did they do in Zvornik after they got police uniforms

21     and were being paid by the police?  Were they doing any work?

22        A.   For the most part they were engaged in what we were supposed to

23     do, which is man check-points or search the houses.  And I know that on

24     or about the 25th of May when Slavko Eric was killed, that they were with

25     him in this combat in Kamenica.  But, as I say, for the most part, they

Page 2907

 1     were around the town itself and its environs.

 2        Q.   Were you aware of any alleged illegal or criminal conduct that

 3     they engaged in at the check-points?

 4        A.   There were rumours that they were looting, that during searches

 5     they were seizing money and gold, but I didn't see that.  On one occasion

 6     when a police officer, Boro Zekic, protested about what they were doing

 7     on the bridge at the check-point, they beat him up, although he was a

 8     police officer too.

 9        Q.   You mentioned in an earlier answer that you kicked out Gogic's

10     men, I take it you mean you, the regular police in Zvornik.  Can you tell

11     the Judges about when that happened and how that came about.

12        A.   That happened on the evening of the 27th of July.  The regular

13     police was coming back from the field, from the lines where we went

14     because we were told that four members of the Sekovic company were

15     captured.  However, we didn't find any members of any unit; we only found

16     a TV set and bicycle.  So when we returned at the entrance to Zvornik,

17     these Gogic's men stopped us and started searching us.

18             We resented that, and, therefore, we went to the station and

19     informed Marinko Vasilic that they were not supposed to do the police

20     work, that they should, once they were brought here, be sent out to be

21     deployed on the front line.

22             Marinko then told us that we had to report to Kalesija

23     municipality to hold the line there.  I said I'm not going there.  This

24     is not my job.  And he said, Then the police should go.  And I said if

25     I'm not going, neither is the police going to go, but you should rather

Page 2908

 1     send Gogic.  He refused to do that, and about 30 or 40 of us policemen

 2     were annoyed, and, therefore, we agreed to capture the house where the

 3     Gogic's men were.  We disarmed them, and we chased them across the Drina.

 4     We took over the bridge and everything else that they held.

 5             Marinko Vasilic didn't like that.  He didn't want to go home, and

 6     we kept him there over the night.  The next day he and Brano Grujic

 7     resigned from their positions.  And one or two days later, a special unit

 8     arrived that had provided us previously with some tapes.  They arrested

 9     all Zuco's men.  And that is when Mico Lokanjcevic was brought from the

10     MUP to be the chief and Brano Mihajlovic to be the commander.

11             For a month I had been receiving some threats from Gogic's men

12     that I better not go to Loznica and things like that.

13        Q.   We'll come back to those events in late July.  Let me ask you one

14     further question about outsiders who came to Zvornik and then were put in

15     the police force.  In addition to Gogic and his men, were you aware of a

16     man from Teslic who had the nickname Crni?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Who was he?

19        A.   Crni came with 12 or 13 men.  They were originally from Teslic,

20     and they used to be at the fronts in Croatia with Captain Dragan.

21     According to the story that was circulating, Crni was one of the officers

22     of Captain Dragan.

23             As soon as they arrived, they gave them police uniforms, they

24     received the same salary as we did, they were an independent group,

25     regardless of the fact that they belonged to the police.  They did what

Page 2909

 1     Crni told them to do, they searched the area, toured the area.  They

 2     didn't bring anything to the MUP premises.

 3        Q.   You say they gave them police uniforms and they received the same

 4     salary.  Who in Zvornik gave these guys police uniforms and paid them a

 5     salary from the police budget?

 6        A.   Since at the time MUP wasn't paying us properly either, that this

 7     was some kind of an agreement between the government and the chief that

 8     Zuca's men were to be paid by the municipality and that they were to be

 9     paid by MUP.  I'm not a hundred per cent sure, but I think that that is

10     how it was approximately.

11        Q.   And approximately when did they come?  What month, if you recall?

12        A.   I wouldn't be able to say.  I don't know when the attack on Kula

13     was.  They came on that day in the evening, and they participated in the

14     attack on Kula, which is above Zvornik, but I can't remember the date.

15        Q.   Do you recall whom was the chief of the SJB at that time?

16        A.   I think it was still Milos Pantelic.  Because the late Slavko was

17     still alive and Slavko was killed on the 25th of May.

18        Q.   So sometime before the 25th of May this happened?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want to ask you, in the MUP, both before and

21     during the war, was there a general requirement for an SJB to send daily

22     reports up to the regional services centre to the CSB?

23        A.   Before the war that was the regular procedure, to send a dispatch

24     about any event of interest.  Other than that there was a compiled report

25     sent every evening.  In the beginning of the war, communication lines

Page 2910

 1     were not functioning properly, but once they did become operational,

 2     reports were being sent.  At the beginning of the war, we belonged to CSB

 3     in Bijeljina.  And then if communications lines were down, then they used

 4     courier service.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, when did the lines become

 6     operational again?  In your area.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were fixed quickly within 15

 8     or 20 days because there was no significant damage to them in Zvornik,

 9     and there wasn't any in Bijeljina.  This is counting from the 6th, the

10     day of the separation.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, next I'd like to show the

12     witness a series of four documents that are all in the nature of daily

13     reports.

14        Q.   And, Witness, I'm not interested so much in the content of these

15     documents.  I just want to ask if you recognise the format and who has

16     signed these documents.

17             MR. HANNIS:  The first one is 65 ter 2935.

18        Q.   Do you recognise the name and the signature at the bottom of this

19     document?

20        A.   Milos Pantelic, he was the chief.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Now, if we can reduce and see the whole document

22     again.

23        Q.   This is dated the 3rd of June.  It appears to be in the nature of

24     a daily report for what happened the preceding day on 2 June.  And just

25     the first paragraph -- this is being sent to Security Services Centre in

Page 2911

 1     Bijeljina.  But in the first paragraph -- in the first paragraph, the

 2     last portion you'll see it says "... which is to be forwarded to the

 3     Sarajevo CSB."  Is that because you didn't have a connection to the

 4     Sarajevo like you did to Bijeljina?

 5        A.   It's possible that initially we didn't have communication with

 6     them.  In Bijeljina, how should I put it, when the first clashes broke

 7     out, there wasn't much damage caused, so the communication lines were

 8     established with Bijeljina faster, re-established.

 9        Q.   Is it fair to say that during this time in May, June, July of

10     1992, that there was some -- some confusion or conflict about which CSB

11     Zvornik should be under?  Whether it should be under Bijeljina or whether

12     it should be under Sarajevo?

13        A.   At the beginning we were under Bijeljina, and then for a period

14     of time, whether it was in August or when, we were placed under the

15     Sarajevo Romanija centre, or whatever it was called.  And then later on

16     we were moved back under Bijeljina.

17        Q.   Do you know why that was happening?

18        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you.  This is high politics.  This is

19     way above me.

20        Q.   Fair enough.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 2935.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P329, Your Honours.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Next if we can look at 65 ter 328.

25        Q.   Mr. Panic, this is a similar document.  Do you recognise the name

Page 2912

 1     and the signature at the bottom?

 2        A.   Milos Pantelic again, chief.

 3        Q.   And again this appears to be a daily report; and, again, it's

 4     going to Bijeljina, but in the first paragraph it has the wording

 5     "... with the proviso that it be forwarded to Sarajevo CSB."

 6        A.   CSB Sarajevo, the same.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  And if we could scroll down to see the stamp on the

 8     -- sorry, scroll up, I guess, to see the stamp on the -- not that stamp,

 9     but a different one, at the top of the page.

10        Q.   Can you read that?  My translation shows that being received

11     in --

12        A.   Bijeljina Sec -- I wouldn't be able to read the first word, and

13     then it says, "Bijeljina Secretariat for ..." And then this is unclear.

14        Q.   The translation I have indicates it's, received telegram number

15     such and such.

16        A.   Looks like "people's," "Secretariat for people's ..."  I'm unable

17     to read it further.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 328.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P330, Your Honours.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  The next one is 2936.

23        Q.   Witness, another one, do you recognise the name and signature?

24        A.   Can you enlarge it?  Yes, Milos Pantelic again.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Again the same sort of daily report, this one dated

Page 2913

 1     the 5th of --

 2        A.   Yes, to inform Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to tender 2936.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P331, Your Honours.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  One more in this series, if I may, and that would

 8     be 329.  65 ter 329.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, what is the purpose of tendering four

10     variations of essentially the same document?

11             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I didn't know if I should tender two

12     or six.  I selected four.  One reason I selected four is because I have

13     this series within the four or five days.  And also you'll see in the

14     upcoming documents that there's a change in the chief, so it helps us

15     identify which date this gentleman ceased to be the chief and when

16     someone else became the new chief.  And also, you've heard, I think, that

17     the Defence in this case is partly based on the fact that saying there

18     was chaos, communications weren't working, et cetera, so I think it's

19     important for the Prosecution to establish that fact.

20             With your leave, if I may have one more.  And this is --

21        Q.   This document, do you recognise this signature, Witness?

22        A.   Again, chief of the station, Milos Pantelic.

23        Q.   Thank you.  This is dated the 8th of June for events occurring on

24     the 7th, and again that proviso to forward it to Sarajevo?

25        A.   Again to be forwarded to Sarajevo.

Page 2914

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Could we tender that one.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P332, Your Honours.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Now I'd like to look at 65 ter number

 6     2937.

 7        Q.   And, Witness, in a moment you'll see this is a document dated the

 8     9th of June concerning a list of ammunition and weapons on stock at the

 9     police station and a request for additional ones.  Dated the 9th of June.

10             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to the bottom of the B/C/S.

11        Q.   Do you recognise the name and signature on this document?

12        A.   Yes, Marinko Vasilic became chief here, and the date is 9th of

13     July.

14        Q.   July or June?

15        A.   June, June.  9th of June.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 2937.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P333, Your Honours.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Based on what we've just seen, Mr. Panic, it appears that Vasilic

21     became the new chief sometime on the night of the 8th or the morning of

22     the 9th.  Do you know how that happened?

23        A.   On the 7th or 8th or 9th, around there.  I heard that Milos was

24     leaving due to health reasons.  He was leaving service and going back to

25     Loznica, back home.  Now, whether there was -- that was true, whether

Page 2915

 1     there were some additional reasons --

 2        Q.   Do you know who selected or appointed Marinko Vasilic to the post

 3     of chief?  Was that done within the MUP, was it done by the Crisis Staff

 4     or the temporary government?  What do you know?

 5        A.   Earlier according to the rules, there should have been a proposal

 6     from the station and then MUP should have approved it.  But I don't know

 7     whether at that time it was already the MUP passing the decisions, or

 8     whether the Crisis Staff was still appointing people.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Can we next see 2938.

10        Q.   You see the name and signature on this one?  You recognise it?

11        A.   Yes, Marinko Vasilic.

12        Q.   And this appears to be a cover letter for the last document we

13     looked at which was a list of materiel and equipment in the SJB.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Such a request for that kind of equipment, weapons, ammunition,

16     et cetera, is this where a police station chief would send his request,

17     to the CSB?

18        A.   Yes, it's possible.  It's possible that they had additional

19     members of the reserve forces join them, so they were lacking weaponry.

20        Q.   Yes, but my question is, is this the appropriate unit to which to

21     send such a request from the police station, if you know?

22        A.   The CSB was above the SJB, unless they were reporting to MUP

23     because here they say that this needs to be forwarded to the Ministry of

24     the Interior.  If they had no communication links with MUP, then they

25     would send it to CSB, and then CSB would forward it to the ministry.

Page 2916

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to tender 2938.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             And, Mr. Hannis, this is the point -- time for the break.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  Your Honour, thank you.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P334, Your Honours.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, Your Honour, I have one request.  One of the

 8     exhibits I want to show the witness is a lengthy document, and I wonder

 9     if I could hand him a copy of the B/C/S so he could look at it during the

10     break.  It might speed things when I show it to him later on.  If the

11     Defence has no objections.  It's the annual report.  Thank you.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thanks.

17        Q.   Witness, the next document I would like to you to take a look at

18     is 65 ter 2939.  This is dated the 25th of June, 1992, regarding a

19     request for equipment, and if we could look first at the bottom of the

20     page.  Do you recognise the name and the signature on this one?

21        A.   Yes, Marinko Vasilic.

22        Q.   And we'll see this request is addressed at the top of the page

23     to, what my English translation says is the republican TO or

24     Territorial Defence of Serbia and Belgrade requesting certain equipment.

25     Were you aware that your chief had sent a request for such equipment to

Page 2917

 1     Serbia?

 2        A.   I wasn't aware that he had sent the request, but I did hear that

 3     the equipment came from Serbia.

 4        Q.   And you'll see in the first sentence it mentions that the Zvornik

 5     public station has an active and reserve component currently numbering

 6     about 500 members.  Is that consistent with your knowledge of how many

 7     policemen you had around the end of June 1992?

 8        A.   I don't know whether there were that many.  Perhaps 350.  I don't

 9     know that there were 500.  I am not sure.

10        Q.   Does your estimate include Crni and his men, and Gogic and his

11     men?

12        A.   No, no.  I'm just referring to policemen.

13        Q.   And with regard to equipment that you, regular policemen in

14     Zvornik, had, what kind of uniforms and weapons did you have in April,

15     May, June, July of 1992?

16        A.   We had multi-coloured camouflage uniforms in olive drab

17     [indiscernible], and police uniforms.  So as far as the equipment goes,

18     we were equipped.

19        Q.   What kind of weapons?

20        A.   Mostly automatic and semi-automatic rifles, and an occasional

21     machine-gun, 7.62.  And later on, we had some 84 ones.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 2939.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P335, Your Honours.

Page 2918

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Next if I could show you 65 ter number 313.

 2        Q.   This next document, Witness, relates to an issue we talked about

 3     regarding which CSB Zvornik was supposed to be under or report to.  You

 4     see the name Mico Stanisic and a signature, although it appears to be, I

 5     can't tell if that's --

 6        A.   Yes, minister of the interior.  But it's almost like somebody

 7     signed for him.  Mico Stanisic is typed, and then it says "for."

 8        Q.   Yeah, that was my question.  Is that a "za" written there before

 9     the signature?

10        A.   I think so, somebody signed for him.  He could authorise a person

11     to sign for him, for the minister, and the same could be done for

12     commander, and so on.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. HANNIS:  And if we could see the entire document.

15        Q.   The first paragraph seems to indicate this is a response to

16     something that had been sent from Zvornik, and this document is informing

17     that Zvornik belongs to Sarajevo CSB.  It's dated the 16th of August.

18     Did you see this document back then, or were you aware of its contents?

19        A.   I didn't see the document, but when it arrived, whether it was a

20     meeting of the leaders, a meeting of the police, the information was

21     given that from that point on we belong to the centre of the Sarajevo

22     Romanija region, or whatever it was called.

23        Q.   And who conveyed that information to you at the meeting?

24        A.   I'm not sure, but most likely the commander called up senior

25     workers, head of communications and so on, and then it was well known to

Page 2919

 1     whom the information was distributed on afterwards.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  I move to tender 313.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P336, Your Honours.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 7             Next could we show the witness 65 ter 2940.  2940.

 8        Q.   Witness, this is dated 29 June 1992, has the typed name

 9     Mico Stanisic and a signature.  On the left at the bottom, there's a

10     handwritten note that's been translated for me as "received" and then the

11     name "Laza Dragicevic."  Do you know a person by that name?

12        A.   As far as I know, we didn't have anybody under the name of

13     Laza Dragicevic.  Head of communications was Vukasin Danojlovic.  I don't

14     know who Laza Dragicevic is.

15        Q.   This communication is directing Zvornik public security to allow

16     Kalesija SJB to use a temporarily confiscated Golf vehicle which had been

17     with that police station before.  Were you aware of this, or did you hear

18     anything about this in late June of 1992?

19        A.   I don't know which vehicle this refers to.  There was some talk

20     that there was a Golf in Kalesija in Osmace that was confiscated and that

21     Zuca's group confiscated a vehicle that belonged to Velibor Ostojic.  But

22     I'm not sure what this is about.  And as far as I know, in Osmace, there

23     were people with the last name Dragicevic.  And at that time Osmace

24     belonged to the Zvornik station.

25        Q.   Could you tell us where Kalesija SJB was?

Page 2920

 1        A.   Kalesija is halfway between Zvornik and Tuzla, and that was under

 2     the Muslim command, that was in the Muslim Federation.

 3        Q.   Is that true throughout the entire 1992, that Kalesija was within

 4     the Muslim territory?

 5        A.   Yes, only I heard that Zuco's units entered Kalesija, but it did

 6     belong to the Muslim Federation.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have any other questions about that.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  May that be marked for identification at this point.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P337, marked for identification,

11     Your Honours.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Next I'd like to show you, Witness, 65 ter number 309.

14             Witness, this is dated the 17th of June, 1992, and it purports to

15     be a report about an inspection conducted at Zvornik SJB, and partially

16     about the situation in Bijeljina.

17             MR. HANNIS:  The names are on the last page, and if we could take

18     a quick look at that.

19        Q.   We see the typed name Dragan Andan and Danilo Vukovic, those are

20     inspectors.  Did you know Dragan Andan?

21        A.   I think I saw him once or twice.  I think on one occasion it was

22     before the specials came in and expelled Zuco's men.  And the second

23     time, I don't remember when I saw him.  As for this person Vukovic, I

24     don't know him.

25        Q.   Were you aware that these two men had come to do an inspection of

Page 2921

 1     the Zvornik police station in late May or early June 1992?

 2        A.   I didn't because at that time, at the beginning of war, many

 3     inspectors from the former MUP came to us and they were refugees from

 4     Sarajevo and Zenica.  They came and started working for all the criminal

 5     investigation service.  Then they would be there for a day or two and

 6     then they would go on to Bijeljina.

 7        Q.   Did your chief at the time make you aware of the results of any

 8     inspection that had been carried out by inspectors who came for that

 9     purpose during May or June of 1992?

10        A.   I don't recall.  I really don't remember.  We may have talked

11     about it, but then again maybe I wasn't there at all.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let me take you to page 4 of the B/C/S, and it's the

13     bottom -- it begins at the bottom of page 4 of the English.  I will

14     direct your attention to a couple of things that these inspectors wrote

15     about, and ask you what you might know about that.

16             For you, it begins the top of your page.  And in the English:

17             "Besides the war activities in which the employees of Zvornik

18     police station participate directly, in order for patrol service to

19     function in Zvornik, it's necessary to withdraw police employees from

20     securing premises on the territory of Zvornik ..." And then it goes on

21     down, skipping a sentence:

22             "The officials at SJB Zvornik have tried to find a solution

23     through the government.  In other words, they suggested that the TO

24     members secure these premises and police return to their daily

25     activities.  However, they were not met with understanding."

Page 2922

 1             Did that happen?  Are you aware of that kind of discussion about,

 2     We need to take the police away from guarding these facilities and let

 3     them get back to regular police work?  Were you aware of that?

 4        A.   I wasn't present when that was discussed, but I knew about that

 5     because even before that period, we would discuss this issue at the

 6     station in the way of that these facilities should be given either to the

 7     police or the army because there were clashes between the police and the

 8     armies about whose jurisdiction it was.  Therefore, we thought that the

 9     police should be sent back to town to do their regular work on

10     maintaining law and order, and crime detection, et cetera.  If necessary,

11     then the brigade could call us to join combat activities.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  Thank you.  If we could go to the next page

13     in the English.

14             For you, Witness, it's the very next paragraph.

15        Q.   The inspectors indicated that:

16             "SJB Zvornik comes across numerous problems regarding the

17     activities by paramilitary formations."

18             Besides the fact that the government of Zvornik municipality has

19     through its decision banned the establishment of a training camp run by

20     Captain Dragan, military authorities have allowed that the same be formed

21     in the area of Divici.  According to the senior staff at the SJB Zvornik,

22     the same have also usurped the premises of Vidakovac motel and have

23     gathered there a large number of persons criminally inclined.

24             Were you aware of that?  Is that consistent with what you saw and

25     knew was going on in Zvornik?

Page 2923

 1        A.   Yes, Captain Dragan arrived sometime after the death of

 2     Slavko Eric on the 25th of May in Kamenica.  They were killed there, and

 3     we couldn't pull out their bodies.  Therefore, he offered to assist us in

 4     that.  However, he never went to Kamenica, and two or three days later

 5     with the approval of the army, he occupied Vidakovac motel with his unit

 6     in which Crni was also there, and the two of them, the so-called Knindze,

 7     were before that in Croatia.  And most of those who joined them were

 8     criminals who searched houses and stole property.

 9             The access to this facility had such high security level that is

10     comparable to the one that is provided for a president of the state.  No

11     one was allowed to enter.

12        Q.   Let me read you the last sentence in that paragraph.  It says:

13             "Due to such a decision and legalisation of the stay by

14     criminally inclined persons in this area, the chief of SJB Zvornik,

15     dissatisfied with the decision by military authorities, has submitted a

16     request to be released from this duty."

17             Who was the chief in Zvornik around the time this was happening?

18     Was that Pantelic or Vasilic that this would be referring to?  If you

19     know.

20        A.   I think that Pantelic was still in that position.  Maybe that

21     also impacted his decision to resign due to health reasons having seen

22     that he was unable to do anything about the situation.

23        Q.   And the timing seems to be consistent because this inspection

24     appears to have occurred between May 29th and June 12th, and we saw

25     earlier that Pantelic was last the chief on the 8th of June.

Page 2924

 1        A.   On the 8th.

 2        Q.   Correct.  Thank you.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would tender 309.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] There appears to be no

 5     objection.

 6             Yes, it will be marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P338, Your Honours.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 9             Next if we could look at 65 ter 347, please.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, when we rise for the day at 1.45, you

11     would have occupied the full four hours which constitutes a day's

12     sitting, which is the time that you estimated you would use.  Do we

13     correctly anticipate that you would have completed your

14     examination-in-chief?

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, just to double-check --

16             JUDGE HALL:  By then at latest.

17             MR. HANNIS:  I don't think I will be.  But I would indicate, I

18     did check with the legal officer when we started this session and --

19     because we had some preliminary matters, and we had a little longer break

20     at one time, I was advised that I had used 2 hours and 12 minutes when we

21     started.  If I used 1 hour and 15 minutes now, to the end of this

22     session, I estimate I'll have about 20 minutes left tomorrow, and I hope

23     that I will finish within that 20, 25 minutes tomorrow.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 2925

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             The next is 65 ter 347.  This is dated the 23rd of July, 1992,

 3     Witness, and if we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S and just look at the

 4     name at the bottom of this page.

 5        Q.   You'll recognise that name we saw before, Dragan, Andan?

 6        A.   Andan Dragan.

 7        Q.   And this is talking about the security situation in Zvornik.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  If we go to page 1 of the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   Andan lists four groups that you had described for us earlier,

10     Zuco, Pivarski, Niski, and Simo Chetnik.  And you'll see he indicates as

11     of this date, the approximate areas where these groups were located,

12     Pivarski in Drinjaca, Niski in Kiseljak, Simo Chetnik in Malesic.  Is

13     that consistent with your information?

14        A.   Yes, and I also say that Simo was in Malesic, Pivarski in

15     Drinjaca, and I didn't know the whereabouts of Niski.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 347.

17             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] Yes.

18             Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P339, Your Honours.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Next 65 ter 312.

21        Q.   Earlier today, Witness, you told us about a time came when you

22     and regular members of the police decided to take action against one of

23     these outsider groups.  And in particular that was Gogic and his men.  I

24     think you told us that happened on or about the 27th of July.  Do you

25     recognise the document that is on the screen now, and if so, can you tell

Page 2926

 1     us what it is?

 2        A.   I can't see clearly whether it's the minister of the interior

 3     from Pale.  This is a letter describing the event, and it was signed by

 4     Momcilo Maric.

 5        Q.   And it makes reference -- it makes reference to a group of people

 6     from Loznica who --

 7        A.   Yes, that's Gogic's men.

 8        Q.   -- were prone to committing crimes, and that they had been

 9     removed and --

10        A.   On the 27th of July at around 2300 hours.  We chased them out

11     into Mali Zvornik without their weapons.

12        Q.   And it appears that you, the police in Zvornik, are requesting

13     some urgent assistance from the Presidency or the Ministry of the

14     Interior; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, and that same evening, we sent to the Bijeljina centre two

16     of our men to inform them about what we had done, that was

17     Miko Miljanovic and Milan Micic.  And those people at the centre were not

18     very satisfied because we did that, since they had planned to use their

19     own resources and chase out all those paramilitary groups including

20     Zuco's one.  And we told them that we should -- they told us that we

21     should be really careful not to let Zuco escape because we would be

22     blamed.  And then the next day they came and arrested Zuco's unit as

23     well.

24        Q.   And your men who went to Bijeljina to inform about what had

25     happened with Gogic's men, are they the ones who came back and told you

Page 2927

 1     that there was a plan in Bijeljina to come down and do something about

 2     Zuco and the others?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  They said that they had already planned to capture the

 4     paramilitary units, but they didn't know anything about this plan, and we

 5     were just ahead of them and they only just warned us to be careful not to

 6     allow Zuco to flee.

 7        Q.   And did they send you any kind of equipment or anything of that

 8     nature?

 9        A.   No, not then, but during the evening they brought us some ribbons

10     to tie around our upper arms in order to recognise our group.  We were in

11     the hotel at the time and we needed these ribbons for recognition

12     purposes.

13        Q.   To identify you as not being part of Zuco's or the others who

14     were intended to be arrested?

15        A.   Yes, Zuco's men.

16        Q.   Did you personally take any part in that operation to arrest the

17     Yellow Wasps and the others?

18        A.   No, we were told to go on with our usual business, to stay in the

19     hotel, and they would do all the rest.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just for clarification, who actually, then,

21     arrested the paramilitary groups?  Was it the police or the army?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of the Special Police of

23     Mr. Karisik.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:

Page 2928

 1        Q.   To your knowledge were there also any federal police from the

 2     federal MUP in Serbia led by Mico Davidovic that took part in the

 3     operation?

 4        A.   I cannot tell you that.  As I told you, we were told to stay put

 5     in the hotel.  They arrested them, took them away to Bijeljina, and I

 6     don't know what happened afterwards.

 7        Q.   And similarly, do you know whether or not any military police or

 8     military security administration personnel participated in the round-up?

 9        A.   I didn't see, but I think there was no one else apart from this

10     special unit.

11        Q.   Do you know how many men came down with that special unit to

12     participate in the arrest, approximately?

13        A.   I couldn't tell because they were not in one place.  They had

14     their own plan, one group was surrounding or jumping across the fence

15     near the hotel, the others were running through the parks, we really

16     didn't know how they operated.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             Shortly after that event on the 29th of July, did you have a

19     change of chief in the police department?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Let me show you a document.  This is 65 ter number 335.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And I guess before we go to that, Your Honours, I

23     would like to tender 312.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted, marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P340.

Page 2929

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Panic, the next document I want to show you is dated the 2nd

 3     of August, 1992.  Do you see the names at the bottom of that document?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   You recognise them?

 6        A.   Yes.  Marinko Vasilic, the chief until that point; replaced by

 7     Lokanjcevic Milorad, and Branislav Mihajlovic, became commander; and

 8     Ratko Jovicic was the --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last two

10     positions.

11             MR. HANNIS:

12        Q.   Witness, the interpreters are asking if you could repeat the last

13     two positions.  They didn't quite hear your answer.

14        A.   From -- starting from Ratko Jovicic?

15             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps if he repeats the whole answer, it would be

16     simpler.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise all these names.

18     Marinko Vasilic, former chief.  Milorad Lokanjcevic, replaced Vasilic in

19     the position of chief.  Branislav Mihajlovic came and was appointed

20     commander.  Ratko Jovicic was chief of the CID, of criminal investigation

21     department.  And Cvijetin [phoen] Lekic was a traffic inspector.

22        Q.   Do you know where Marinko Vasilic went after he was relieved of

23     his position?  What became of him?

24        A.   He went to the municipality, he was there on stand by for a

25     period of time.  And later he got employed --

Page 2930

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the last word.

 2     I'm sorry.

 3             MR. HANNIS:

 4        Q.   Witness, I'm sorry, the interpreters didn't hear the last word

 5     about where or how he got employed.

 6        A.   Oh.  He was -- he became employed with the customs office.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I -- oh, one other question.

 9        Q.   Where did Lokanjcevic come from?

10        A.   Milorad, aka, Mico Lokanjcevic, was from the village Brodac,

11     Bijeljina municipality.  Before he used to work as the chief of police

12     station in Kalesija, that was before the war.  He is now retired and

13     lives in the village of Brodac.

14        Q.   And do you know who chose him and appointed him for that position

15     as the new chief in Zvornik?  Was that the Crisis Staff, or was that the

16     MUP?  Do you know?

17        A.   I think that already then, because he came after the dismissal of

18     Vasilic.  He and Branislav Mihajlovic came from the security centre of

19     Bijeljina.  They were appointed by ...

20        Q.   I am sorry.  It's translated, "They were appointed by ..."  And

21     then we don't hear your answer.  By whom or what?

22        A.   By the centre -- security centre of Bijeljina, public security

23     centre of Bijeljina and the ministry.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I tender 335.

Page 2931

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P341, Your Honours.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Witness, next I want to ask you a little bit about some of the

 5     Muslim detainees.  Is it correct that even in late August after there had

 6     been some international furor about Manjaca and Omarska, there were still

 7     Muslim civilians that were detained in the Zvornik area.  Do you know

 8     that?

 9        A.   I don't know the exact date when the prisons in Zvornik were

10     closed and moved to Batkovic.  It is possible, but I'm not sure.

11        Q.   I would like to show you another document.

12             MR. HANNIS:  This is 65 ter 1585.

13        Q.   And I'll tell you as it's coming up on the screen, this is dated

14     the 29th of August, 1992.  And it's from Commander Colonel Dragutin Ilic

15     from the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  I think you've told me before, you

16     recognised his name as a member of the VRS; is that correct?

17        A.   I have never -- Dragutin Ilic.  He was writing to the

18     Zvornik Brigade.  He is probably from the corps.

19        Q.   Okay.  I think that's correct.  You see his message is to the

20     Zvornik Brigade:

21             "Hand over the Muslims you have in the Divic centre, 78 people,

22     to the Zvornik SJB.  They are civilians, so they are in their

23     jurisdiction, not in that of a military unit."

24             First of all, can you tell us where the Divic centre was in

25     August of 1992?

Page 2932

 1        A.   The Divic centre, I explained, it's a village above Zvornik where

 2     Radikovac was.  But I think that at the time there were no Muslim

 3     detainees in Divic, but that from the Dom in Celopek, certain prisoners

 4     were returned to the prison called Novi Izvor and misdemeanour court in

 5     Zvornik.  That situation remained until 1993 when I saw a document about

 6     13 Muslims who were sent purportedly to log woods or trees on Crni Vrh,

 7     that was in January 1993.

 8        Q.   Do you know anything about 78 civilians being transferred from

 9     the army to the Zvornik SJB around the end of August?

10        A.   I don't.  But as I've said, it's possible that those who were

11     detained in Novi Izvor and at the municipal court, that it was them.

12     They had nothing to do with them.  Twelve or thirteen people from there

13     were allegedly taken to Crni Vrh to cut timber there allegedly, and then

14     they were killed, people from Divic.

15        Q.   That event you are just describing, can you tell us when that

16     was, approximately?

17        A.   I saw in one document either here or in Tuzla indicating that

18     that was in January.  From the prison in the misdemeanour court, they

19     were to take out 13 prisoners and they were to be dressed in the police

20     uniforms, the winter ones, and that they were to be taken to Crni Vrh to

21     cut timber there.  The uniforms were put on them, and as was stated at

22     the court in Tuzla by Sredoje Vukojevic who was the prison warden, that

23     in -- Mico Lokanjcevic conducted the inspection, and a military truck

24     arrived, 150 type, and these people were boarded on the truck and

25     allegedly taken to Crni Vrh to cut timber, but they never returned.  And

Page 2933

 1     in the evening on the radio, it was reported that a Muslim terrorist

 2     group numbering 13 people appeared in Crni Vrh and were successfully

 3     liquidated by the Army of Republika Srpska.  And it was then that they

 4     started believing that it was these people.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to have 1585 marked for

 7     identification at this point.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P342 marked for identification,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, the witness is saying January for

12     this event.  I suppose that January --

13             MR. HANNIS:  1993.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1993, yes.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, and I think that's unrelated

16     [realtime transcript read in error "related"] to these 78 people.  Thank

17     you.

18        Q.   Next I'd like to show you 65 ter 3025.

19             Witness, this is a list of names, purportedly police who were

20     working at the prison in August of 1992.  And do you recognise the men

21     named there, that list of ten?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Were they policemen in the Zvornik SJB at that time?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. HANNIS:  And if we can go to the signature on the bottom

Page 2934

 1     right.  It's the station commander.  I guess it's in the middle of the

 2     page.

 3        Q.   Can you recognise what is written there?

 4        A.   I cannot, but MM could be Momcilo Maric, but I'm not sure.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I need to look at the next page in the

 6     B/C/S, I think.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was Vojin Vukovic who became

 8     commander later.  And this signature is different.

 9             MR. HANNIS:

10        Q.   But is that Vukovic's signature?

11        A.   Yes.  As for the policemen, seven of them have been sentenced to

12     ten or so years in Sarajevo for these war events.

13        Q.   Do you know what specific war events?  Related to the prison

14     where they were guarding?

15        A.   For prisons.  For prisons.  Sretena [phoen] was given ten years;

16     the others, seven years.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. HANNIS:  I would like to tender 3025.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P343, Your Honours.

21             MR. HANNIS:

22        Q.   And, Mr. Panic, just to clarify so there's no confusion, the

23     Vojin Vukovic who was commander in August 1992 is not the same person

24     that is known by the nickname Zuco, that's Vojin Vuckovic; correct?

25        A.   Yes.  One is Vuckovic, one is Vukovic.  And Vojin Vukovic used to

Page 2935

 1     work for the Ministry of the Interior before the war as well.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And speaking of Vuckovic, Zuco, were you aware that

 3     after he was arrested in late July in Zvornik, he was detained for a

 4     month and then released at the end of August when no charges were filed

 5     at that time?  Did you know that?

 6        A.   I heard that they had been released from prison.  Now, as to what

 7     was done, whether any reports were made, I don't know.  This was most

 8     likely done by the Prosecutor in Bijeljina since they were detained there

 9     and I don't know what ...

10        Q.   Did you know a person by the name of Goran Zugic who worked in

11     the police station?

12        A.   Yes.  He came from Tuzla, and he worked for the state security in

13     Tuzla, and then he came to the state security in our place.

14             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to show you an exhibit that's 65 ter

15     number 298.

16        Q.   Witness, this is a document dated the 5th of September, 1992.

17     And it appears to be some information from Goran Zugic, although the

18     signature I believe is a signature for him.  I think it's "za," z-a.

19        A.   Goran Zugic is typewritten and the rest "for ..."

20        Q.   And I would indicate that at the top of the page it does talk

21     about Zuco having been released after his arrest.  And the report is

22     talking about information they have about Vuckovic talking about maybe

23     getting some of his men back together and settling accounts with MUP.

24     And the next to the last paragraph says:

25             "Bearing in mind the above, we and the Zvornik SJB have taken

Page 2936

 1     steps to observe the movements of Zuco's paramilitaries."

 2             Were you aware, or did you participate in any way in surveilling

 3     Zuco or his paramilitaries after he had been released at the end of

 4     August?

 5        A.   No.  I didn't know when he was released.  Most likely it was done

 6     by the state security since it was Goran Zugic who wrote this.  At that

 7     time his wife was from the Celopek village, so most likely they had

 8     followed him.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, may I tender 298.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P344, Your Honours.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Related to that, Witness, I'd like to show you

14     65 ter number 300.

15        Q.   There's no signature on this document.  It's dated the 10th of

16     September 1992 in Pale.  Purportedly from the National Security Service

17     of the Republika Srpska.  And it appears to be passing on that

18     information that was in Mr. Zugic's report in a condensed fashion,

19     delivered to the interior minister in the security organ of the army.

20             You've not seen this document before; correct?

21        A.   No, I haven't.

22        Q.   Two things in here I'll ask you about.  One is it talks about

23     Zuco trying to finish business in the region and suggests that he might

24     try to launch an artillery attack on the Zvornik police station.  Did you

25     ever hear any talk or rumours about that?

Page 2937

 1        A.   No, I didn't hear that, but we did know that at the beginning, at

 2     the factory in Birac, he had started constructing an armoured train, but

 3     he didn't succeed in completing it.  His work was banned.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  We can't hear the witness, his microphone is

 5     off.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  So is mine.  Okay, now mine is back on.

 7        Q.   Witness, we had a technical malfunction, and I don't think the

 8     interpreters could hear all your answer, but I think you answered enough

 9     and started to talk about the armoured train.  One other thing that says

10     it that Zuco's return is mostly delayed by the presence of the special

11     MUP unit in Zvornik.  Was Milenko [realtime transcript read in error

12     "Marinko"] Karisik's special unit still in Zvornik as of about the 10th

13     of September, if you know?

14        A.   Milenko, not Marinko Karisik.  Milenko Karisik.

15             It wasn't there the entire time.  It wasn't there non-stop, but

16     they used to come often at the time.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  I'd like to tender number 300.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P345, Your Honours.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Witness, we talked earlier about daily reporting from the SJB.

22     In addition to those daily reports, did police stations and police chiefs

23     also submit quarterly reports about the activities of their respective

24     police stations, both before the war and after the war?  Was that one of

25     the standard requirements, if you know?

Page 2938

 1        A.   Yes, before the war especially.  At the beginning of the war

 2     perhaps reports were not sent out immediately, but later on they sent

 3     quarterly reports as well.  Especially once Mico Lokanjcevic came to his

 4     post, that became more regular, and there were no longer war activities

 5     in Zvornik and one was able to work properly.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  I'd like to show you 65 ter number 332.  And,

 8     Your Honours, I would indicate in e-court it appears that we have no

 9     English translation of the first B/C/S page, but it's very brief.  I'll

10     just ask the witness if he can read the B/C/S that's on his screen right

11     at the moment.

12        Q.   Mr. Panic, can you read what is on the screen in front of you,

13     what that document is or is entitled?

14        A.   "Report on ..." Then there's a portion that is unclear.  Then it

15     says, "SJB Zvornik from the 1st of April until the 30th of June 1992."

16     And as for the unclear bit ...

17        Q.   That's all right.  That's sufficient.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go then to the last page in both the

19     B/C/S and English, I have a question for you.

20        Q.   Do you recognise the name and the signature at the bottom?

21        A.   Marinko Vasilic.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And now if we could go back to page 2 of the B/C/S

23     and page 1 of the English.

24        Q.   Mr. Panic, we see that this is dated the 29th of June and

25     purports to be sent to the Bijeljina CSB.  Not Sarajevo, but to

Page 2939

 1     Bijeljina.  And it's a report on the activities of the Zvornik police

 2     station between 1 April and 30 June.  Have you ever seen this document

 3     before?

 4        A.   I haven't seen this document, but most likely this was sent to

 5     Bijeljina.  And at that time we still belonged to the Bijeljina centre.

 6        Q.   And at the bottom of that B/C/S page and at the top of page 2 in

 7     the English, Witness, you'll see under the heading "Task and duties of

 8     the National Security Service," the second paragraph says:

 9             "During this period 300 individuals were interviewed and 200

10     statements taken about activities of Muslim and other extremist groups

11     and individuals."

12             During that time-period between April and the end of June 1992,

13     where was the security -- the National Security Service conducting

14     interviews, if you know?

15        A.   I am familiar with this.  People who were taken in, be it by the

16     army or by the police, and sometimes even by the paramilitaries, would be

17     taken to the state security and to the criminal investigations police

18     department, and they were the ones who conducted interviews and wrote

19     reports on what they had learned based from interviews.  They would send

20     it to the chief of the centre, chief of the station.

21        Q.   And can you tell us physically where they were located during

22     this time-period?  Were they at Alhos, or were they somewhere else?

23        A.   Later on the hotel and the SUP building were already operational

24     in May and June.  We used to work for awhile at the SUP building and

25     continued living at the hotel.  The crime investigations police had their

Page 2940

 1     premises on the second floor, and the state security on the fourth floor.

 2        Q.   During the time that you were based in Alhos, were you aware of

 3     any detained Muslims being interviewed there?

 4        A.   It's possible, but I didn't see that.  It's possible.  I saw that

 5     there were people who had been taken in and there were offices there.

 6     That was a large textile manufacturing company.

 7        Q.   Were you personally aware of any detained Muslims being beaten

 8     and/or killed during interviews or during detention in any of those

 9     facilities in the Karakaj area during 1992?

10        A.   I know of Standard.  I came from the field one day and I know

11     that three Muslims were killed on the ground floor of Standard.  And in

12     talking to people, I learned that he was killed by a member of the Milic

13     company of the VRS.  And why?  Because allegedly a soldier from the Milic

14     company had been killed near a monument, and they came, they found those

15     three men there, and shot them right away in the hallway,

16     Kara [as interpreted] Osmanovic or something.

17        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when that was, since you said it

18     was a VRS unit, I take it, it was after mid-May.  Can you give us any

19     more precise date or month?

20        A.   No, I can't.  Perhaps it was late May while the Milic company was

21     at Standard.  I know that Nijazkara [phoen] Osmanovic was killed, Ilijas,

22     and I don't know the third person's name, but he was also from Zvornik.

23        Q.   Did you or anybody else in the police report about this to the

24     military police or military authorities so they might take appropriate

25     action against the killers?

Page 2941

 1        A.   I think that since the military police were stationed there at

 2     the Standard building and that they were possibly present when it was

 3     actually done.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to page 3 of the B/C/S and page 4 of

 6     the English.

 7        Q.   Witness, on your page there's a heading called "Task and

 8     Activities of the Police Station" and it's the second paragraph under

 9     there.  It says:

10             "As of 25 June 1992, 200 members of the reserve force were placed

11     under the direct command of the Zvornik Municipality Brigade staff."

12             Did you know about that, that 200 reserve police had been placed

13     under command of the brigade staff?

14        A.   I didn't know that there were as many as 200, but I knew that a

15     large number of men were taken off the reserve forces of police and

16     transferred to the brigade.  In Zvornik and in the surrounding towns,

17     there was no combat activities in order to reduce the number of policemen

18     who were conducting those duties.  And I think that the brigade had sent

19     a dispatching asking that the extra men be sent to them so that they

20     could become members of the brigade.

21        Q.   Do you know how it was decided or who decided that those reserve

22     police would be given or loaned or placed under the command of

23     Zvornik Brigade?  Who in the police would have had the authority to make

24     that kind of decision?

25        A.   It depends on the period of time.  It could have been decided by

Page 2942

 1     the chief himself, or he could have said to the commander, Make a

 2     selection of men who are no longer fit to serve and police, be it because

 3     of their attitude or something else, and send them to the army.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph says:

 5             "In this period, the Zvornik police station employees

 6     participated in 15 combat operations, mopping up operations, and terrain

 7     searches."

 8             Did you, yourself, participate in any combat or mopping up

 9     operations?

10        A.   From the 25th of June, I don't know, it's possible.  If I did go,

11     then I went to Bandjerka.  Most of the time I went with a company to the

12     trenches in Bandjerka which is in Sekovic municipality.  We would spend

13     15 days there and then come back.  But I'm not certain that I took part

14     in this.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Could we go to page 5 in the English.

17        Q.   And, Witness, for you, still on the same page.  If you'll go down

18     of five paragraphs to the one that begins with the number 336,

19     "inspection outings."  Did you find that?

20             MR. HANNIS:  And the top of the page in English, thank you.

21        Q.   My question relates to the end of that paragraph, and it talked

22     about police providing escort.  It says:

23             "... escort was provided for 30 columns of people and vehicles, a

24     column of UNPROFOR, humanitarian aid, and persons escorted."

25             My question is about persons escorted, were those Muslims who

Page 2943

 1     were moving out or being moved out of Zvornik municipality that were

 2     escorted by the police, if you know?

 3        A.   It's possible that there were Muslims too.  But this was already

 4     the 25th of June so I think that that was already the end, so there

 5     weren't many left.  Could have been something else.  Where it says here,

 6     people who require security, here they are referring to dignitaries.  For

 7     example, a minister would come by, minister of Serbia, and he would

 8     require escort to Pale.  Or a minister from Pale would come by, and he

 9     would require escort and security detail up to the border with Serbia.

10     So it's mostly referring to them, people who require security detail.

11     Because there used to be UNPROFOR there then and others.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 332.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P346, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, I think we are at 2 minutes from the

17     end of the -- I have two small questions about the transcript if you

18     allow me.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Page 7, row 16, it said the assistant commander

21     "Eric Slavko," and I wonder if that is Eric Slavko.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, I belive the first name ins Slavko, and the

23     last name Eric.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The last name is Eric.  Is that the person that

25     is killed on the 25th of April?

Page 2944

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Eric, yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Slavko is the first name.

 3             THE WITNESS:  On the 25th of May.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that should be corrected.  And then on

 5     page 69, row 5, the events of January 1993.  In the transcript it says

 6     that you said that's related to the 78 people.  And I remember hearing

 7     you say that is not related; correct?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  That's what I meant to say.  I meant to say not

 9     related, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Not related.  Okay.  Thank you.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, may we break now, Your Honour.  I would

12     indicate I only have two more documents to ask about, a quarterly report

13     and the annual report.  And I will try to do that in 25 minutes tomorrow.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, we are not quite finished with your

16     testimony yet, as you would have gathered, and we will resume in this

17     courtroom at 9.00 tomorrow morning.  So you having been sworn as a

18     witness, you cannot speak to the lawyers from either side.  And in your

19     conversations with anybody outside of the courtroom, you can't discuss

20     your testimony.

21             And before we rise, I wish to extend the thanks of the Chamber to

22     Mr. Khan whose assistance as duty counsel has enabled us to continue with

23     a minimum of inconvenience and disruption in the peculiar circumstances

24     we had.  Thank you.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

Page 2945

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

 2                           November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.