1 Tuesday, 24 November 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
6 IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to all.
8 May I have the appearances, please.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. For the Prosecution, I'm
10 Tom Hannis with Belinda Pidwell and our case manager, Crispian Smith.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
12 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence.
13 Thank you.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin,
15 Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic. Thank you.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 MR. HANNIS: Could I hand the hard copy to the witness, Your
18 Honour, of the document we were looking at yesterday?
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
20 Good morning, Witness. I would remind you that you're still on
21 your oath.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
23 WITNESS: WITNESS ST-121 [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
1 Q. Good morning, Witness. When we left off yesterday we had been
2 talking about some notes from your diary concerning your interviews with
3 some of the Yellow Wasps that were arrested in Zvornik in late July 1992.
4 And I've had the usher hand you the hard copy. I think we're on page 3
5 of the English and page 4 in the B/C/S in e-court. It's page 3 for you,
6 Witness. We were talking about item number 6, the list for liquidation
7 of unwanted Serbs. And then you had told me about -- that you had not
8 seen such a list but you had seen the list with some names of some 6- or
9 700 Muslims or Bosniaks.
10 A. Yes, I did see that list.
11 Q. And at the end of the day yesterday I think you were telling us
12 about the time when you were briefly with or a member of the VRS military
13 police and you went to Celopek Dom to take a look at persons detained
14 there to see if you knew anyone from your time working before the war.
15 Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes, it is precisely.
17 Q. And I apologise. I would indicate that we've been looking at 65
18 ter 1439, 1439. Now, on this page 3, item number 7 it talks about Zuco's
19 stay in Pale and he was there twice. Do you recall where you got that
20 information that Zuco had been to Pale twice?
21 A. From him during our informative talk.
22 Q. And did you also personally interview his brother, Dusan, known
23 as Repic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
1 I'd like to show you 65 ter 3020. This will come up on the
2 screen in a moment, sir. Do you recognise that document, Witness?
3 A. The writing style is familiar, but I would like to be able to
4 read to the end to see if it is me or one of my colleagues. But since I
5 was the one who conducted the interview, perhaps it's possible that
6 somebody else actually drafted the statement. I cannot see the end of
7 the document. I cannot see who signed it.
8 MR. HANNIS: Can we go to the last page in both the English and
9 the B/C/S.
10 Q. Witness, it appears that the only signature we have on this
11 statement is that of Mr. Vuckovic, the person giving the statement.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that typical of the way these kind of statements were taken in
15 A. No, it wasn't typical. The usual thing was that the person who
16 was conducting the interview would put their signature and the person
17 also who was giving the statement would sign, the date would be entered,
18 and also the initials or the signature of the typist who was typing it
19 out. I've never taken a statement like this or permitted the person who
20 was interviewed to sign it like this. The letters are a little bit
21 small, so I find it hard to see. But I would not submit a statement like
22 this to anyone. I don't know who took this statement, maybe somebody
23 else, the people from the state security.
24 Q. But your standard practice was always to sign the statement along
25 with the witness?
1 A. Yes, and you can see that in a whole series of cases, including
2 the Yellow Wasps case. You could see how I took statements.
3 Q. Was that just your personal practice, or was that a requirement
4 under the rules in the MUP, or do you know?
5 A. This was on the basis of MUP, rules, and rules had to be
6 respected. As to why somebody took a statement like this, I really don't
8 Q. I think you said earlier that you thought this might possibly
9 have been taken by someone on the state security side of the house. Do
10 you know what the rules were regarding how they took statements? Because
11 of the nature of their work, did the operatives who took statements not
12 sign, do you know?
13 A. I really couldn't say. I didn't work in that service so I don't
14 know their rules.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could turn back again to 1439. Again,
16 Witness, this is the hard copy document that you have in front of you.
17 These notes from your diary, were they taken contemporaneously with the
18 events that you're describing; that is, did you write these notes at the
19 time you were conducting the interviews of the Yellow Wasps?
20 A. Yes, that is the time-period, yes. This was the first diary that
21 I received as an operative in the ministry of Republika Srpska. I
22 received an old diary. I didn't have anything else and that's when I
24 Q. And I want to go to page 16 in the English, that's page 16 for
25 you in the hard copy, sir. And then B/C/S in e-court would be page 17.
1 We see there a reference to a meeting on the 15th of August, 1992. Is
2 that a meeting you attended; and if so, what was the purpose of that
4 A. I was one of the members of the group. Probably that was asked
5 by my boss, Goran Macar, and the cabinet to go into the field and to see
6 what the situation was as far as crime was among the police forces and
7 all other problems that dated from April up until July/August, in that
8 area. I was accompanied by Nikola Milanovic and the police
9 administration was represented I think by Cedomir Tosic or Radenko
10 Vujicic. I'm not sure which one, and I think there was one more
11 operative Milomir Orasanin. These are all old experienced operatives who
12 had more than 20 or 25 years of service at that time.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Again intervention in the transcript, page 5, line
14 3, he said -- he was giving specifically which cabinet he meant. I don't
15 see that in transcript.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Witness, it appears that the translation didn't pick up which
18 cabinet you were going to the office for. Did you name that; and if so,
19 could you repeat it for us.
20 A. The hierarchy in the MUP begins from the minister. When I say
21 the "cabinet," I imply -- I mean the minister. That is where all the
22 ideas flow down towards the administration. It can be the police
23 administration, the crime investigations administration, or some other
24 one. The minister would see the problem at collegium meetings with the
25 chief of the centres when he had an overview of the problems, then I
1 assume that he would send a dispatch to the police administrations or the
2 crime investigations administrations or the chiefs of those
3 administrations, and they in turn would pick the people who would go out
4 into the field, review the situation, and make a complete report, and
5 then report back to him. That is how it worked, and then you would have
6 other matters and meetings and so on.
7 Q. At the next page for you, sir, page 17 in e-court of the English
8 and 18 of the B/C/S, it appears to be further notes about this meeting on
9 the 15th of August. And you note that about 20 operatives are present.
10 Could you explain for me and the Judges, what is an operative in the MUP?
11 A. Well, this is a kind of name that is used frequently for a person
12 that has special police authority. It could be a uniformed officer or a
13 civilian officer. We simply refer to such persons as operatives. We
14 don't say a police inspector or a crime investigation inspector; we would
15 just refer to them as operatives, short.
16 Q. And how is that different from just a regular policeman?
17 A. The difference would be, for example, first of all in the degree
18 of education; then the security and the difficulty of the assignments,
19 compared to just regular policemen and regular crimes. I'm not
20 underestimating any single policeman in Republika Srpska or anywhere else
21 who worked as beat officers and didn't finish university. This is
22 something else. But in order to be an operative in the crime-fighting
23 unit or the police unit, there was some conditions, preconditions, and
24 that would be the education completed, work experience, and some other
25 factors. And if you permit me, I can say that our minister was one of
1 the best students in the school for internal affairs and started off as a
2 regular policeman and then became a minister. Mr. Zupljanin also was a
3 very good operative.
4 Q. I've seen the term in some MUP documents, the term which is
5 translated as "authorised official of the MUP." Can you explain to me
6 what that is and how it differs from "operative."
7 A. MUP is an abbreviation for "Ministarstvo Unutrasnjih Poslova,"
8 Ministry of Internal Affairs. So we say -- instead of a security
9 services centre or a public security station or a police station, we just
10 refer to them as "MUP." That is a common term. There is I think also a
11 title and I referred to it yesterday. What the Ministry of Internal
12 Affairs is and how it was structured, what its administrations are, what
13 the security centres are, how they were formed according to the
14 departments at a lower level, and then I also talked about the public
15 security station and its department, how that was formed, and that is the
16 lowest organisational unit. All together, though, we referred to all
17 those offices as the MUP; that was a common name. It doesn't mean -- if
18 somebody says that they are an employee of the security station or if
19 they are an operative, that they made a mistake by saying that they were
20 in the MUP.
21 Q. I'm sorry. I may have confused you with my question. I was
22 interested primarily in the definition of "authorised official." I take
23 it that not all employees of the MUP were authorised officials. For
24 example, the janitor may not have been an authorised official. Can you
25 explain to us what an authorised official was?
1 A. An authorised official is a person that has an official
2 identification card and has a special authority. This is not something
3 that everyone had. There are other MUP services in the centres and the
4 stations. These are legal departments, analysis departments, and persons
5 who worked there were not authorised officials. So official ID cards
6 were issued only to policemen who were beat policemen, who worked on
7 public law and order, to operatives or to crime-fighting police officers,
8 and then going up towards the top of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
9 So these were people who dealt with crimes, the work of the police.
10 There was a war going on. People had to be taken to the lines. They had
11 this authority and this is where the difference lies.
12 Q. Okay. And connected with holding the position of an authorised
13 official, were there certain privileges that attached? For example, were
14 authorised officials allowed to carry weapons, to make arrests? Can you
15 give me some examples?
16 A. Authorised officials had the description of what they were
17 permitted to do in their personal ID card. They were allowed to carry
18 weapons, they were allowed to enter somebody's apartment or official
19 office, they could confiscate a vehicle in case of an emergency. All
20 these things were strictly described and entered in the professional ID
22 Q. I take it then that all operatives were authorised officials; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. On this page, at the bottom of the page, there is a point I think
3 at the very bottom of the page in my English translation says:
4 "Monitoring of genocide and war crimes against the Serbian
5 people, in accordance with the UZSK dispatch."
6 First of all, can you tell me what UZSK stands for?
7 A. It's an abbreviation in 1992 which meant "Uprava Za Suzbijanje
8 Kriminaliteta" crime-fighting administration, and this title was in use
9 for a year or a year and a half, and it was changed to the UKP, "Uprava
10 Krim Policije," crime police administration. So this is an old title
11 from the communist times, the UZSK.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Hannis?
13 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I?
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes, please.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness, you said that all operatives are
17 authorised officials, but is it correct that not all authorised officials
18 were operatives?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot understand that, that
20 somebody who's authorised to carry a weapon can enter somebody else's
21 apartment or other areas for a search or to detain somebody as stated in
22 their official identification card for them not to be an operative. I
23 cannot understand that. For me, that is the same thing.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's the same thing. Thank you very much.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Well, that was a question I had thought about asking, but that
2 answer is not what I thought would have been given. I'm a little
3 confused, then, Witness, by your earlier answer. I sort of understood
4 "operatives" to be people like yourself who I guess the nearest analogy
5 in my experience in America
6 plain clothes and interviews suspects and investigates crimes, versus the
7 regular policemen, the beat policemen who drives in a patrol car, walks a
8 foot patrol and wears a uniform, and -- is there a distinction between
9 the two, or would you call the regular policeman wearing the standard
10 uniform and doing a beat patrol an operative as well?
11 A. You are correct, yes. It does seem to be like that. But amongst
12 ourselves, when we use the term that somebody's an operative, I think
13 that that didn't get in the way of inspectors doing their job in relation
14 to crime in relation to a beat policeman in a certain sector who had to
15 know who was living in that area, what is the structure of the
16 population, how many people had criminal files, how many crimes were
17 being committed in that area. We referred to them as operatives too. A
18 policeman had to do a certain amount of work in the previous system, and
19 then in the system after the war, that can actually quite come close to
20 the amount of work to an operative who had to work in a specific field,
21 for example, homicide or thefts or something like that.
22 Q. Okay. I'll move back then to page 17 of your notes. This
23 dispatch about monitoring genocide and war crimes against the Serbian
24 people, by whom had that been sent if you know?
25 A. I think it came from the minister's office through our first
1 chief who received it, read it, designated people who would go out into
2 the field and convey what was contained in the dispatch. I personally
3 did not read it at the time, but I heard about it at the meeting chaired
4 by Mr. Nikola Milanovic, a long-time operative, and that meeting was held
5 with the representatives of politic -- police -- public -- police
6 stations in that area, the Doboj region. It was related to the deaths
7 among Serbs and Bosniaks. However, when an operative who worked in the
8 Doboj centre, he was a seasoned operative, reported that from April to
9 June - that's before the corridor - they had 11 or 13 murders of Bosniaks
10 in town and criminal complaints were filed, he was told, "Don't brief us
11 on that now. We'll discuss it later. Why didn't you send it to the
12 prosecutor's office? Let's see what we are going to do next."
13 Q. Thank you. Let me have you turn to page 19 in your hard copy,
15 MR. HANNIS: Page 19 of the English and 20 of the B/C/S in
16 e-court, please.
17 Q. At the top of the page the first point in my English translation
19 "Number of operative posts filled in the Doboj centre. It is the
20 intention of the ministry to select and hire staff."
21 Do you recall what that was about? Who in the ministry was going
22 to select and hire staff for what?
23 A. When the war began, let's say in early May 1992 as far as the
24 Doboj region is concerned, around -- many people were admitted into the
25 reserve force of the public security station Doboj and CSB Doboj, and
1 they were not properly vetted as to whether they had any record or
2 whether they were quite fit. And in order to clean the ranks a bit, it
3 was decided that we had to let such people go. And the public security
4 stations as well as the CSB knew well who these people were.
5 Q. And does that mean that the new employees were going to be picked
6 at the ministry level as opposed to being picked in Doboj at the CSB or
7 some lower level, do you know?
8 A. Well, the way they were admitted into the public security station
9 of Doboj and the CSB of Doboj, I suppose, they did not have the
10 ministry's approval. I mean, I can only suppose because I know that
11 Milosevic [as interpreted] was chief and he had a deputy who is now
12 mayor. They did not have any communication practically, although they
13 were working in the same house. And Dusan Zivkovic was not speaking to
14 Andrija and Andrija was not speaking to the chief. They admitted people
15 on to the force any which way, the police or the crime investigation
16 department. And there were some ridiculous applications that in my
17 practice I came across. If the Trial Chamber wants to know, I can tell
18 them about it.
19 Q. Let me ask you a couple questions there. At page 12, line 7, you
20 say: "I know that" -- and it's been translated as: " ... I know that
21 Milosevic was chief and he had a deputy who is now mayor."
22 I think that name was not heard properly. Who was the chief,
23 what was his name?
24 A. I cannot remember the name. He's a local, but if it comes to me
25 I'll tell you. But everyone knows who I'm talking about. He's a member
1 of the SDS, and it was through SDS channels that he came to that
2 position, just like Andrija Bjelosevic --
3 Q. Okay, I'm sorry. I think I'm confused.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Mr. Hannis, I believe the witness didn't
5 understand your question at all because he just mentioned the proper name
6 of the chief of the CSB.
7 MR. HANNIS: That's correct.
8 Q. That's what I was trying to get from you, Witness, was the name
9 of the chief of the CSB, and if you can just confirm for us, it was
10 Andrija Bjelosevic.
11 A. Andrija Bjelosevic. He resided in Derventa, worked in the
12 defence ministry. He had some sort of university degree in political
13 science or some humanitarian degree, and through the party he came to be
14 chief of the centre in May 1992, a very bad police officer, no
15 professional training, did not exercise his authority.
16 Q. Thank you. If we could turn to page 19 in your hard copy -- I'm
17 sorry, page 20 in your hard copy, page 20 of the English, page 21 of the
18 B/C/S in e-court. I've got questions about the last two entries on this
19 page, Witness, and the first of those in English is translated as:
20 "Appeal to authorised officials not to engage in any kind of
21 shady deals."
22 Do you recall what that was about when you wrote that down?
23 A. That was one of the topics at the meeting. In the ministry by
24 that time we had a large number of both anonymous and signed notes from
25 the citizenry and workers of the Doboj centre that some officers abused
1 their authority when entering the apartments of both Serb and non-Serb
2 population. They would give -- they would sign protocols with false
3 names and take away -- seize whatever they pleased. They would also
4 illegally remove non-Serbs and drive them across the border towards
6 stigmatised, and they were sent to the front lines for stints up to one
7 year. That was some sort of punishment.
8 There were also other forms of abuse of authority, such as in
9 detaining people, especially in Doboj. Those authorities had been in
10 place in Doboj since before the war. Doboj was not destroyed as a town.
11 It had all the institutions of authority, the prosecutor's office, the
12 justice system, courts, prison. If the war had not happened, they could
13 have gone on working lawfully. But what happened? The prison warden, an
14 acquaintance of mine, Mirko, left that position of police -- of prison
15 warden for reasons that only he knows. But probably because unlawful
16 things were being done there, illegal arrests, illegal detention, people
17 were being beaten and probably even killed in prison. Who ran the prison
18 at the time I don't know, but I think it's easy to investigate,
19 especially using the statement of the first justice minister, Momcilo
20 Mandic. He could answer the question who was doing these things at the
22 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you a question then about the next
23 entry on this page at the very bottom. My English says:
24 "Persons in the camps not to be taken out and no decisions to be
25 made on their killing."
1 What was that about when you wrote
2 that note?
3 A. That was the position taken by our office, that is, by our
4 minister, the collegium as well, namely, that the police has no business
5 with anything like camps or prisons. That was taken over by the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. Whether it was a decision of the government or the
7 then-War Presidency, I'm not sure. But around the 9th or 10th June,
8 1992, the decision came into force that all camps and prisons are now to
9 be under the control of the corps and the police had no access there. If
10 any individual policeman wilfully gained access and did something there,
11 he would be held answerable.
12 Q. The way that reads, it sounds to me as though this is something
13 that had happened prior to 15 August, and that's why it's being
14 discussed. Am I right about that?
15 A. Yes, you are right. Let's take, for example, Samac. That case
16 has been finalised, and I believe you have enough information about that.
17 I would not like to go through it again but --
18 Q. If I can stop you there. I don't think that's necessary right
19 now. We'll have some more discussion about Samac later. If I could
20 continue on in this document to page 25 in your hard copy, Witness.
21 MR. HANNIS: Page 25 of the English, 26 B/C/S in e-court.
22 Q. The second point in my English copy says:
23 "Everybody was bringing people in and detaining them. It was
24 arranged with the army that they would deal with the conscripts."
25 Do you recall what that was about?
1 A. If I remember correctly, there was a period in 1992 when it was
2 agreed that if a military conscript is caught red-handed, he would be
3 handled by the military police rather than the civilian police, in order
4 not to confuse jurisdictions. Because there were examples in Modric and
5 Derventa where guns were pulled between military policemen and civilian
6 policemen over such disputes, and to avoid such things an agreement was
7 made at the top, and I believe this is why this issue was raised at this
9 Q. Okay. If we could go to page 29 in your hard copy.
10 MR. HANNIS: And e-court 29 English, 30 B/C/S.
11 Q. And at the bottom of the page, the last or next-to-last entry,
12 can you read that to me because in English the first word or so is -- not
13 been able to be translated because it was found to be illegible. Can you
14 read that whole entry for me? Something about employees taking Muslims
15 from the city.
16 A. The way I wrote it, it reads:
17 "It happens that this staff drives Muslims out of town and kills
18 them ."
19 Somebody at the meeting must have told us this. No specific
20 murder was mentioned, but it was underlined as a recurring phenomenon so
21 that we in the first and the second administration should know that such
22 things were happening in the area of Doboj.
23 Q. And where you've written "this staff" or as was translated in my
24 English "these employees," who does that refer to, or what organ does
25 that refer to?
1 A. It referred to the police, police inspectors, men who worked in
2 the security service, not necessarily authorised officers. I'll give you
3 an example. Veljko Sulaja was chief of the general section for crime
4 fighting, and he took one -- he took some of his close relatives, some of
5 his in-laws, two or three Bosniaks up to Raca where the police stopped
6 them. Mainly the Serbian police did not allow them entry. This case was
7 recorded, dispatch was sent to Doboj. The State Security Service got
8 involved, and he was suspended for six months and sent to the Army of
9 Republika Srpska. I have other examples from Bijeljina. People
10 attempted to take their relatives to safety, which is quite a normal
11 thing to me. It's normal to help your own family. However, the police
12 had prescribed certain rules and anyone who broke them had to suffer for
14 Q. Okay. Let me try and break this down so I understand clearly. I
15 understand you to be saying that there were some instances where police
16 and perhaps other Serbs, non-police, took Muslims out of town, perhaps
17 across a border to some safety. Correct so far?
18 A. Yes, you understood me correctly. There were cases of abuse
19 where --
20 Q. Okay --
21 A. -- these things were done for money.
22 Q. That was my next question. In some cases it was done to help a
23 relative or out of a good motive, sometimes for money, but in your
24 statement you said some of these -- the staff or these employees were
25 taking Muslims out of town and killing them. Correct?
1 A. Could I see the lower part of this document. I believe it was
2 Cvijo Anicic who briefed us on this. He was chief of general crime in
3 Derventa. I noted down that sentence from him. Cvijo Anicic works
4 currently as a judge at the lower court in Modrica. He's a serious
5 manner, and while he worked in the police he was a good officer, as he's
6 a good judge now. He said at that meeting that this was happening, but
7 he did not explain any details to me or the wider audience. He probably
8 had in mind some specific examples. Whether he shared this with Nikola
9 or not, I could not say.
10 Q. Okay. You said earlier that some of the Serbs who had been
11 caught doing this, trying to take Muslims out were disciplined, sometimes
12 removed from the police service and sent to the army and sent to the
13 front lines; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you have any information about what happened to any police
16 employees who took Muslims out and killed them? Were they removed from
17 the service or punished or sent to the front lines, or do you know?
18 A. It would be hard for me to give an answer to that question, I mean,
19 if any of the policemen or operatives had committed such a crime, a war
20 crime, that it became known and that they would be prosecuted for it…I
21 cannot recall any such example, but I suppose there were such cases and
22 that investigations against all individuals are on-going. As long as a
23 person is still alive, I guess the time will come when they will be
24 held responsible.
25 MR. ZECEVIC:
1 I have a problem with the transcript. This is not what the witness said.
2 I don't know, maybe it's easier that I file the verification request, Your
3 Honours, in order to clarify the situation because the appropriate organs
4 can hear the tape and then make the necessary corrections. This is obviously
5 very important issue, and I'm reluctant to get up all the time and use up the
6 time and distract my friend, but I need to raise this issue. So whatever is
7 the instruction of the Trial Chamber. We can file the verification request.
8 [Trial Chamber confers] JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, thanks for drawing
9 our attention to this. We've discussed it, and we're not quite sure of how
10 to best address this problem because judging from the number of interventions
11 that you've had this morning on this subject, it seems to be a recurrent
12 problem. And I don't know if there is any difficulty with interpreting
13 this witness's testimony into English, but the simple thing is always
14 to try and deal with it here, right on the spot, and that is to say to have
15 the witness repeat what he has just said in order to get the right meaning
16 out of it. But if it is a consistent issue, then we have to go the hard way
17 and you have to file then a request for verification and then we'll see.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of assistance, Your Honours, basically
19 this is the first time in weeks that we are having this situation.
20 Sometimes it is -- a part is missing, but this is a completely different
21 issue. Now, in this case I believe the witness said quite differently
22 from what is entered into the transcript. In my opinion, the best --
23 probably the best way, because there is an audio-tape on this, that the
24 verification request is given to the Registry and the interpreters, and
25 then they re-tape the -- they put the tape on and then the -- this
1 provisional -- this actually part is re-interpreted.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: As you wish.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if you --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I think that would -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, to
6 interrupt you. I think this is probably the easiest way and the most --
7 the less complicated way than anything else. Because if we -- in this
8 case if we go into repeating the question, the answer, there might be --
9 there might be -- first of all, the time will be lost. Thank you.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Sure. The only thing that you have to do is to
11 identify those parts in the transcript of today --
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Definitely, Your Honour, I know how to do --
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- and ask to have it verified.
14 And this is said without any criticism to our interpreters, with
15 whom I have great confidence in them. You're always very good. Thank
16 you very much.
17 MR. HANNIS: If I may on this point, Your Honour, I would
18 request -- if there are particularly concerning or important ones, that
19 they be expedited as quickly as possible. Because if it turns out that
20 the correct translation is something dramatically different from what I
21 understood it to be, then I would need the opportunity to try and address
22 it with the witness before he leaves town. That's my only concern.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Gentlemen, we are being advised by the Registry
25 that the process of formal verification takes a longer time than the
1 witness -- this witness is expected to stay in town. So --
2 MR. HANNIS: I understand that that is typically how it works. I
3 guess I'm just trying to raise the issue that if it is a particularly
4 important matter, that perhaps with CLSS or the appropriate parties it
5 could be expedited if there's only, you know, five lines at page 73, it
6 seems to me as a practical matter it wouldn't take that long for one
7 person to listen and verify. I understand if we're making a request for
8 the entire transcript or several pages, that's different. But if there
9 is one particular item, like the last answer, if with the Court's
10 assistance we could perhaps urge CLSS to make an exception to the
11 ordinary process. That's my request.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: What we'll do is we'll have a word with CLSS in
13 the next break and then see how things can be done.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I can ask for nothing more.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Witness, sorry for the interruption. Let me go next then to page
18 33 in your hard copy.
19 MR. HANNIS: And in e-court 33 in the English, 34 in the B/C/S.
20 Q. And at the top we have three names, the chief of the Doboj centre
21 who you told us about before, the chief of the Doboj SJB, and the deputy
22 for the Doboj CSB, Milan
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what do you know about him, what prior experience did he have
25 in the police before the conflict began in 1992, if you know?
1 A. Milan Savic worked in the crime technicians' department of the
2 public security centre. He had completed some kind of secondary or high
3 school and completed a course in pyrotechnics. When I was in Doboj in
4 July and later in August, until the end of that year I visited a couple
5 of times. There was one occasion when his colleague, who also worked in
6 the crime technicians' department, his name was Novica - I can't remember
7 his last name - had a private trading company in Doboj, and he was
8 retired but as a reserve worker. He worked in the Doboj public security
9 centre during the war. They said, "Well, let's go and drink coffee right
10 across the street from the public security centre at his shop," it was in
11 the main street. So we did. This was after August 1992. Now, why am I
12 saying this? Because in August 1992, together with a colleague, Nikola
13 Milanovic, I had an assignment from the minister's cabinet to make a
14 review of the events in Teslic, to look at that file. It was a very
15 voluminous file, and we needed to take an overview and complete a report
16 so that the minister would be totally informed about what really happened
17 there. We did that. I don't need to go into re-telling of that event
19 So on that occasion when we were drinking coffee I said, "You
20 were in Teslic there the chief of those guys in Doboj, and you were
21 creating a lot of problems?" So then he understood that I knew a lot
22 about that particular case, and then in order to make an impression on
23 me - that's at least how I understood it - that he was an important
24 person as the deputy of the chief of the Doboj centre, Mr. Andrija
25 Bjelosevic, not educated, with just secondary school, he was telling me,
1 he was boasting, "Do you know what I did in 1991 in order to get to where
2 I am now, to this post?" I didn't want to ask him about that and that's
3 not my habit. I usually let a person speak by themselves, and he was
4 open to me. Novica was there and his wife was there who was a Bosniak.
5 She was sitting at the cash register and taking money from people who
6 were buying some things. We were just sitting very close to there, and
7 he then said to me, "I was in a group which the Doboj SDS at the time
8 formed in order to blow up buildings such as the political parties' newly
9 formed in 1990 in the Doboj region." And he told me in detail the story
10 of how they went to Odzak - this is a place in north-Eastern Bosnia
11 the left bank of the Bosna River
12 mainly Bosniak and Catholic population. They arrived there at about 1900
13 hours, and they placed an explosive device, a plastic explosive device.
14 Very simply they stuck a fuse on it, and it was a time-activated fuse.
15 From Odzak to Modrica they were driving there. It was 6 kilometres, so
16 they were rushing to the evening news to some local cafe to hear the
17 news, whether this happened or not. Did it blow up. And how they were
18 happy about that. I think that he did tell me the truth there --
19 Q. Let me stop you there. Just to clarify, who was telling you
20 this, the name of the individual?
21 A. This was Milan Savic, this was Milan Savic. And this was the
22 reason why he advanced in the service, because he had had a role in
23 certain actions of the SDS with a group of people. He didn't mention any
24 names. I didn't question that because it was war, and if you ask him
25 that --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand what the
2 witness said.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then when he continued the story --
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. Let me stop you there. The interpreter indicated that she didn't
6 hear what you said after you said: "I didn't question that because it
7 was war, and if you ask him that ..." they were not able to catch what
8 you said after that. Can you carry on from that point?
9 A. If I were to ask him, "Who were you with? Give me some names or
10 mention somebody," that would be suspicious to them. And since he knew
11 where I was from, where I was coming from, naturally he didn't want to
12 open up the topic any more. I used the term "zakuje" meaning block up.
13 He actually wanted to let me know by that act that as far as he was
14 concerned I was not an important person during those three days that I
15 was in Doboj. I was just a small figure and that he was the one who
16 could take the credit for the fact that the Serbian rule was now in force
17 in Doboj, even though the structure of the population was 50/50.
18 Q. Let me stop you there. When you were in Doboj in the middle of
19 August, 15th of August, Milan Savic was -- was still the deputy of the
20 CSB, of the regional security centre; correct?
21 A. He was not there by then because of that event in Teslic. He was
22 arrested with a group of operative who had committed some abuses in
23 Teslic. I don't know how long they were in detention. Criminal report
24 was submitted by the Banja Luka security centre. So I really couldn't
25 say when he was released with the others who had been detained. After
1 that I think that he was no longer a deputy.
2 Q. The event in Teslic, you're talking about from notorious events
3 involving a group that was referred to as the Mice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were you aware of whether or not Milan Savic was ever charged
6 with any crime in connection with the activities of the Mice; and if so,
7 whether he was ever convicted or removed from the MUP because of that?
8 A. Milan Savic was not convicted because of that in the sense of war
9 crimes, but he was convicted pursuant to the criminal report by the Banja
10 Luka security services centre. This is an unfortunate incident -- or
11 when two -- well, when members of the same police draw weapons --
12 actually, my personal position regarding that particular case is that
13 Mr. Zupljanin, either alone or with somebody else's approval, decided to
14 stop the abuses of those people that they were committing in Teslic,
15 expulsions, seizure of property, terror acts. This went on for two
16 months that they were terrorising those people, and this was -- a stop
17 was put to this in June when Andrija Bjelosevic, Milan Savic were
18 arrested, who was going with him with 75.000 German marks in his pocket,
19 and Andrija doesn't know where this money had come from, with weapons and
20 other things perhaps. Colleagues that had directly participated in the
21 work on that case will have something more to say about that. But just
22 by looking at the case, the overview, that's how I was able to see what
23 had happened.
24 Q. You said that Milan Savic was convicted pursuant to a criminal
25 report by the Banja Luka
1 details about that? When and where was he convicted and for what? Was
2 it any kind of crime against non-Serbs, or was it for crimes against
3 other Serbs, if you know?
4 A. I know that a criminal report was submitted, but I don't know
5 what the outcome was really. I didn't really follow-up to see what had
6 happened. I don't know.
7 Q. Thank you. Okay. --
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I would like to tender Exhibit 1439 --
9 65 ter 1439, that's the notes from the diary that we've been looking at.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P403 under seal.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
13 Now, Your Honour, I'd like to go into private session for the
14 next few documents if I may. We break at 10.25?
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 3716-3725 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Witness, I'd like to show you 65 ter 188.
21 MR. HANNIS: And I understand -- actually this already has an
22 exhibit number of 1D59.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: What about 65 ter 304?
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour, I meant to tender that under seal.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Admitted as Exhibit 405 under seal, Your Honours.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Judge Delvoie.
2 Q. This exhibit, 1D59, in evidence, have you seen this document
3 before or during 1992 were you aware of the contents of this document?
4 A. I did not see this document because such documents are usually
5 sent to the chiefs of organisational units and administrations, and it is
6 up to them to proceed in a responsible and conscientious manner to take
7 action upon such documents. I was just a person who executed orders. I
8 heard about it but I was not really involved.
9 Q. Were you aware of any circumstances in 1992 where members of the
10 MUP who were criminally prosecuted or against whom criminal proceedings
11 were being conducted were dismissed from duty and placed at the disposal
12 of the army, of the VRS? Did you know about that happening?
13 A. I was aware of certain cases through violations committed, for
14 instance, people who were trying to help their family members, Bosniaks
15 or Catholics. I know of several such cases.
16 Q. Were -- I'm sorry. Were those persons -- were those persons
17 actually criminally prosecute, or were they merely removed from the
18 service and turned over to the army, if you know?
19 A. I think that they were disciplined. There were disciplinary
20 proceedings held within the Ministry of the Interior. There was a
21 disciplinary commission, and at the proposal of the chief of an
22 organisational unit, proceedings, disciplinary proceedings, would be held
23 from the station level and to higher levels up.
24 Q. Okay. Am I correct in understanding that not everyone who was
25 disciplined internally was dismissed and/or turned over to the army,
1 talking about MUP personnel?
2 A. Well, there were examples where people were not held responsible,
3 either in disciplinary or criminal proceedings for all sorts of reasons.
4 For instance, if I may mention the case of the Samac group. This is
5 Stevan Todorovic who was chief of the public security station without a
6 formal decision on appointment, you know what he was tried for and you
7 know what crimes he had committed. He stayed on until 1994 in that
8 position. Now, who kept them there, I don't know. But I know that the
9 minister did not appoint him; the politicians appointed him, Mr. Blagaj
10 Simic did and Mr. Radovan Karadzic also, he was close to them.
11 Q. Let me show you now another document. This is 65 ter 239. And I
12 will tell you, sir, this is a 9 September 1992 meeting on Mount Jahorina
13 of the extended board of the RS MUP. And I'm not -- I know you weren't
14 at the meeting. I'm not asking you about that. I want to ask you about
15 something that will be found at page 6 of the English and for you
16 beginning at the bottom of page 3 in the B/C/S which will be on the
17 screen in a moment. And at the meeting one of the things that was
18 discussed was personnel issues. At the bottom of your page number 1
19 listed is Dragan Andan and it says he was:
20 " ... temporarily suspended for illegal use of poker
21 machines ..."
22 Do you know what happened to Mr. Andan after that temporary
23 suspension? He remained in the service, did he not?
24 A. If the Trial Chamber allows me, I would take a while to explain
25 exactly what happened there.
1 Q. Well, I'm hoping -- I'll certainly defer to whatever the Judges
2 want to do, but I would ask you now if you could just answer my question.
3 Did Mr. Andan remain in the service in 1992 after his temporary
5 A. No, he was thrown out of the service and he joined the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. This was a glaring example of violation of discipline
7 by employees of the Ministry of the Interior.
8 Q. He returned to the service at a later time?
9 A. Much later. I was retired in 2000 and sometime after that - I
10 don't know using what connections - he returned and became director of
11 the police.
12 Q. Let me go to the next page in B/C/S in e-court. We can stay on
13 the same page in English. I have one more to ask you about, Witness.
14 Number 2 on the list is:
15 "Danilo Vukovic, temporarily suspended for unbecoming behaviour
16 and reckless endangerment."
17 First of all, did you know who he was and where he worked?
18 A. He was my first senior in wartime. He used to work in the former
19 republic SUP in Sarajevo
20 an economist by training. Somebody sent him to Bijeljina to become chief
21 of the sector of crime police in Bijeljina, just before the Bijeljina
22 centre was set up. On one occasion he occupied some Bosniak apartment
23 down-town, on the fourth or fifth floor. He lived there alone, and with
24 a friend of his he spent all the time somewhere down-town. And then
25 later in his apartment he would continue drinking, and when he was
1 completely drunk he took a bomb, defensive or offensive, I don't know,
2 and threw it from the apartment from the fifth floor to the side of the
3 street where people keep their cars. And there are many passers-by. It
4 was in the summer, in July I think. This grenade exploded and put the
5 lives of people below at risk. A complete on-site investigation was
6 conducted, and the whole case was differed to the prosecutor's office in
7 Bijeljina. Whether he was later prosecuted, I don't know, but I know
8 that after that incident he was excluded from the service, again by a
9 decision of the minister's office because this is really a crime.
10 Q. Do you know if he was turned over to the army?
11 A. He was not turned over to the army because he managed to avoid
12 it. He had a decision on him, a decision on appointment. He went to
13 join his family in Montenegro
14 charges were too old to be prosecuted. His wife was a native of Bosanska
15 Gradiska, so he later returned there. He kept a low profile for a while,
16 but eventually he committed another criminal act involving a fire-arm.
17 And he was charged for that after the war. Still, he was again admitted
18 to the Ministry of the Interior by a decision of Dragan Kijac, then
19 minister, because the two of them had a kum, best man, relationship. So
20 those are the type of unlawful acts I was talking about.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. HANNIS: Could we now go into private session before I show
23 the witness the next document.
24 JUDGE HALL: Yes
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 3731-3755 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. When you were being issued your ID, including those rights and
15 powers that authorised officials have - and the rights are stated on the
16 back of your ID card - when you were issued with that ID card and your
17 service pistol, did you maybe sign such a solemn statement, declaration?
18 A. It was not preferred to us. I just signed for my official ID in
19 the personnel section, and I also drew from supplies a service pistol,
20 handcuffs, that's it.
21 Q. So you don't remember signing such a solemn declaration in the
22 personnel service?
23 A. I don't remember that that was a practice in the former Socialist
24 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't remember any of my
25 colleagues making such a solemn declaration -- at least I don't recall
8 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly --
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm sorry, we have to go into
10 private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 3758-3768 redacted.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. -- is from the Serbian Ministry of the Interior, signed by
11 Minister Mico Stanisic. The date is 19 July 1992, sent to all security
12 services centre, to the attention of the chief, and the document resulted
13 from the conclusions endorsed at the first meeting of the collegium of
14 the MUP on the 11th of July, 1992, in Belgrade. In paragraph 1 it says:
15 "... among priority tasks for the national security service and
16 the crime prevention service, the tasks on detecting and documenting war
17 crimes ..."
18 And then there is a reference to another order of the 16th of
19 May, 1992 -- so the -- "discovery and documentation of war crimes, of
20 genocide, and the submission of criminal reports were among the
21 priorities of the national security service and crime prevention service,
22 a questionnaire on war crimes and victims of genocide has been compiled
23 in the information analysis administration."
24 Can we now show page 3 and the form of this questionnaire. I'd
25 like to ask you for two comments. You see points 5 and 6: "Ethnicity
1 and religion" of the victim of war crime. When you were making this
2 questionnaire with your senior officers and colleagues with whom you
3 investigated the war crimes and Yellow Wasps, did you fill a similar
4 questionnaire with similar information that was security related?
5 A. I learned about this questionnaire much later, when it was
6 already well in use after many of our interventions and reviews. But in
7 the days in which it was developed, I did not see it. I've already said
8 how exactly I took the statement and made an official note concerning
9 Dusan Vuckovic, a.k.a. Repic. This was mostly used by the State Security
10 Service, and our jurisdictions were different. But of course if I found
11 something out, I could always write an official note - nobody would stop
12 me - and make it available to the State Security Service.
13 Q. When you say "State Security Service," between the Public
14 Security Service to which you belonged and the State Security Service,
15 the jobs were divided concerning the documentation of war crimes and the
16 primary organ responsible for this was the State Security Service. Could
17 we put it that way?
18 A. Yes, yes. I think they were mainly responsible.
19 Q. But at any rate, if I understood your evidence correctly, even
20 you - although you were in the Public Security Service - were involved as
21 part of the team investigating the Yellow Wasps for war crimes?
22 A. I was not forbidden from getting involved, on the contrary.
23 Q. When you say "on the contrary," that means you received orders to
24 join that team?
25 A. Well, I could not with a clear conscience keep something like
1 that to myself when I was talking to the man.
2 Q. When you started these inspections in the summer of 1992, were
3 there any complaints concerning the possibilities of communication
4 between public security stations and security services centres or
5 internally within them, were such complaints in April through July 1992,
6 do you know anything about that?
7 A. From April until July I was not aware of that, but by 15 July
8 communications were working between what was then the territory of Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina
10 There were also working telephone lines. You could call Bijeljina,
11 Prijedor, Trebinje from Banja Luka and other places. As for other
12 communications, I couldn't say.
13 Q. Let's go back to that interview of the 15th of August, that talk.
14 That's when you first heard about this Teslic problem; right?
15 A. Right. After that meeting and after a report was written to
16 inform the leadership about the situation in the police, the crime
17 incidents, and the level of equipment available to the police, only later
18 did we receive instructions from Minister Stanisic to go to the Banja
19 Luka centre - it was already August - to look into that case, make an
20 analysis, make a report, and inform the ministry exhaustively.
21 Q. In fact, it was at that meeting that you first learned in detail
22 about the problems that existed between the CSB Doboj and the SJB Doboj,
23 that is, the centre and the police station, and further into the
24 territory Samac, Derventa, and Teslic. It was put to you for the first
25 time as a problem and you received for the first time an explanation of
1 what was going on?
2 A. Yes, and it was the priority issue at the meeting.
3 Q. You were explaining -- we don't have much time so I am not going
4 to open up that new aspect. Let me just ask you: Today when you were
5 talking about the Teslic problem, when the political leadership decided
6 that Teslic should belong to the Banja Luka region, and thereby also
7 change the jurisdiction of the security services centre over a certain
8 public security station, my learned friend Mr. Hannis asked you about the
9 situation in Zvornik. And you went on to explain that before the war, in
10 1992, Zvornik belonged to the security services centre Tuzla, where you
11 used to work. Right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please tell me the CSB also included Bijeljina as well as
14 Zvornik at that time. Before the war there was no CSB in Bijeljina; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes, it wasn't there before. It was formed in June 1992 for the
17 first time.
18 Q. The Tuzla CSB wasn't in the territory of the Serbian Republic
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it was in the Federation territory; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that the public security station in Zvornik was practically --
23 when Republika Srpska was established and until the CSB was formed,
24 remained without its original centre, the CSB which was in Tuzla
1 A. Yes, that is correct. But this was then compensated for quickly
2 with the forming of the Bijeljina CSB.
3 Q. Thank you for this clarification. I think that it is now clear,
4 the situation. Do you remember that Mr. Bjelosevic, the chief of the
5 CSB, complained about the relationship or the attitude of Bijeljina CSB
6 towards the Prijedor SJB [as interpreted], is that correct, but more
7 specifically in relation to him?
8 A. Yes, but there were more complaints from the army headed by
9 Commander Slavko Lisica. I think he wrote quite voluminous documents to
10 the Ministry of the Interior.
11 Q. We will come to that. What I'm interested in now is the Crisis
12 Staff. I wanted to show you a document before we finish for today.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness
15 Q. You are aware that he complained about the problems that he was
16 having with the Crisis Staff, do you recall that? Just yes or no,
18 MR. HANNIS: While that's coming up, can I ask my learned friend
19 if the transcript is correct at page 83, lines 22 and 23. The Bijeljina
20 CSB towards the Prijedor SJB?
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. It has nothing to do with
23 The Crisis Staff -- the Crisis Staff of Doboj, not Prijedor CJB.
24 I said the Crisis Staff of Doboj. The problems which the chief of CSB
25 had with the Crisis Staff of Doboj. That was my question.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Can you
2 please look at this document, sir. I
3 don't know whether you were ever shown it before. It's the decision of
4 the Crisis Staff in Doboj dated the 15th of June, 1992. It's a couple of
5 decisions at a meeting held on the 15th of May, and it adopted certain --
6 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues]... because it's
7 time for the --
8 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. I will probably take a
9 minute -- a couple of minutes, so I guess we can leave it for tomorrow
11 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I apologise. We will continue
13 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HALL: Sorry.
16 Mr. Witness, I remind you of what I would have said yesterday,
17 that you can't discuss your testimony until you -- well, you -- while
18 you're still sworn as a witness. So we resume until -- and re-convene
19 tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
22 November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.