091125ED

Page 3775

1 Wednesday, 25 November 2009

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T. The

7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

8 JUDGE HALL: Morning to all. May I have the appearances, please.

9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. On behalf of the Office of

10 the Prosecutor I'm Tom Hannis along with Crispian Smith.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,

12 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for the Stanisic

13 Defence.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Igor Pantelic and

15 Dragan Krgovic for Zupljanin Defence.

16 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

17 [The witness takes the stand]

18 JUDGE HALL: Good morning, to you, sir. I remind you that you

19 are still on your oath.

20 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 WITNESS: WITNESS ST-121 [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

Page 3776

1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness

2 yesterday's document, 1D700.

3 Q. Let me just remind you, we were talking about that meeting in

4 Doboj on the 15th of August 1992. I asked you if the chief of the

5 security centre said he was having problem with the Crisis Staff, you

6 said he was complaining about all sorts of things, then I showed you this

7 document but we didn't have time to work with it. It's a decision or a

8 series of decisions by the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Doboj

9 dated 15th June, 1992. That was the date of the session and the date of

10 these decisions.

11 Under item 2, you see that the Crisis Staff of Doboj municipality

12 requests from the chief of the Doboj security centre to justify all

13 decisions of the Ministry of the Interior relating to the organisation of

14 the centre and the appointment of personnel at the centre.

15 Did the chief of the security centre complain to you at that

16 meeting that he was experiencing pressure from the Crisis Staff?

17 A. When we visited the centre, first we came to the chief, Andrija

18 Bjelosevic, at his office, and as is the custom, we had coffee together.

19 And we gave him an indication of why we came for this visit and what the

20 reasons were for this meeting. Although a dispatch had been sent the

21 previous day from the headquarters in Bijeljina that some operatives

22 would be coming. That was what was usually done.

23 At that meeting, Andrija did not talk to us about these problems.

24 He talked more about the organisational problems of the service, that he

25 did not communicate well with the head of the security centre, I forget

Page 3777

1 his name again. He is now mayor of Doboj. At that time he was chief of

2 the public security station. Anyway, the chief said that he had no

3 private or official communication with the then chief of Serbian security

4 Dusan Zivkovic, I think the name was, and he gave a series of rather ugly

5 examples that I would not like to go into details of now.

6 He said that there were some operatives who addressed him in an

7 ugly manner when he tried to intercede and prevent them from beating

8 people within the compound of the security centre. People who had been

9 taken to prison while he was telling them from the window not to do that,

10 and they just showed him the finger and said, Look, if you have what it

11 takes, come down and --

12 Q. Would you please slow down for the interpreters.

13 A. Anyway, when it was time to go to that meeting at the police

14 hall, which is not far from the centre, Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic did not

15 take the trouble to come to that meeting, and he did not attend.

16 Q. Very well, thank you. There's no point in discussing this matter

17 because it was not mentioned. You said yesterday that at that meeting on

18 the 15th of August you found out about this problem in Teslic, the

19 conflict between Doboj and Teslic, and the conflict between Bjelosevic

20 and Savic, Savic is the name you could not recall.

21 You said yesterday on page 3721 of the transcript, that after

22 those events that happened in Teslic in May and June 1992, the leadership

23 of Teslic decided that Teslic would belong to Krajina, would joint

24 Krajina, and consequently, the public security station would fall under

25 the competence of the security centre of Banja Luka, rather than the

Page 3778

1 centre in Doboj where it belonged by logic and where it belonged before

2 the war in 1992. Is that what you said?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So if I understood correctly, this decision by the Teslic

5 leadership on joining to the region of Krajina dates back to that time in

6 1992?

7 A. Well, do not pin me down to those dates when politicians decided

8 that it should be so. I was not very interested in these things. I was

9 more interested in problems pertaining to my profession.

10 Q. In any case, it happened before the 15th of August because you

11 were informed in Doboj that it had happened already?

12 A. Yes. Nikola Perisic told us that he had the approval of the

13 political leadership and we knew who that meant, that he was leaving the

14 Doboj region and was joining the Banja Luka region for such and such

15 reasons because these people who had for a month and a half or two months

16 committed great evil against the people, mainly against Bosniaks,

17 Catholics, and even some Serbs were complaining against their behaviour.

18 Q. You are talking about these Mice people around this Savic?

19 A. Precisely.

20 Q. For the transcript, it's a group of men who call themselves Mice.

21 A. Yes, that group.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When you learned this on the 15th of August at that meeting in

25 Doboj, you informed accordingly the MUP, I suppose Goran Macar your

Page 3779

1 immediate superior about this situation between Teslic and Doboj?

2 A. Let me clarify a little. After this meeting in Doboj, we went to

3 Banja Luka the same afternoon and we spent the night there. The next day

4 was Saturday, I remember that well. We wanted to find some of the

5 leaders but they seemed to be busy elsewhere, and we wanted to find the

6 operative who was directly involved in the Teslic case so that he could

7 brief us so that over two, three, five hours, whatever it took we could

8 read the case file and on that basis write a report that was required by

9 the minister, Mico Stanisic.

10 Q. So on that basis, you wrote the report, you returned to MUP

11 Bijeljina and handed the report to your superiors; correct?

12 A. Well, we handed it to our first immediate superior, and you know

13 how the chain goes up, towards the minister's office. Our immediate

14 superior was Goran Macar, then it went up. We informed both on the

15 situation in Doboj and the Mice group from Banja Luka. Inspectors --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the names.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Just take it easy, please. It's really a problem for people to

20 follow you, especially when you are naming a lot of people. Just tell us

21 the names of the inspectors.

22 A. Well, the interpreters are not saying anything to me. Inspector

23 Dragoljub Markovic who was then working at the security centre in Banja

24 Luka in the CID sector, and he is currently working in the MUP of Brcko

25 district. I don't know what his job is. And Mr. Dragojevic who was then

Page 3780

1 in the homicide department of the security centre of Banja Luka.

2 Q. The one in the homicide department was Drago Jevic?

3 A. No, Drago Jevic, J-e-v-i-c.

4 Q. Ten days later on the 25th of August you were sent again by Goran

5 Macar to check whether instructions had been followed in that region,

6 Doboj, Teslic, Bosanski Samac, and I believe Brcko?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As a result of these reports that you had submitted to the MUP,

9 if I understood you correctly, the MUP issues instructions and a decision

10 on the appointment of a new chief and a new commander in Teslic. And

11 your colleague, together with you, go there in October carrying those

12 decisions on appointment and replacement of the then leadership, members

13 of the radical party as you said, and you carry those documents on the

14 25th of October when you go into a new inspection tour of that region,

15 Doboj, Teslic, and Samac; right?

16 A. Possibly. I cannot remember in which order we visited these

17 places to see what had been done after the July meeting, whether all the

18 shortcomings have been addressed.

19 Q. Let's just focus on the 22nd of October. Your colleague and

20 you -- in fact, your colleague goes and you accompany him. He carries

21 the decision on the appointment of a new chief in Teslic and a new

22 commander in Teslic, and also decisions to replace the leadership of the

23 SJB?

24 A. Gojko Radenkic, [as interpreted] or maybe Cedo Tosic, I cannot

25 remember now. I think Cedo Tosic was carrying the decisions and Radenko

Page 3781

1 Vujicic went there on inspection. Cedo Tosic was carrying the decisions,

2 a courageous policeman who had been on the police force since before the

3 war, judo expert, very good police officer.

4 Q. And this assignment of yours, you wrote a report about it that

5 was shown to you yesterday as document P405.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3798

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I think at one point in the course of your evidence here you said

7 that the reason for the arrest of this paramilitary unit, the Yellow

8 Wasps, was the wholesale mistreatment of non-Serb population, lootings,

9 robberies, killings, all sorts of very serious crimes?

10 A. Against Serbs as well.

11 Q. You conducted investigation and questioning and among other

12 things you interrogated this man Repic. It is a fact that the state

13 security sector was dealing with war crimes and genocide; right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Now, I'd like to show you 65 ter 296. That is a report from the

16 4th of August 1992. The title is "Report on the Activities of the MUP on

17 Investigating the Criminal Activities of the Yellow Wasps Paramilitary

18 Units in the Zvornik Municipality."

19 On page 2, the document is unfortunately not signed, but there is

20 an indication that it was drawn up in Bijeljina on 4 August 1992.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just show page 2 to the

22 witness.

23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour --

24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, page 3.

25 MR. HANNIS: It's my understanding that it has an exhibit number

Page 3799

1 now, 1D75.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Mr. Hannis, much obliged. I'm sorry.

3 Q. [Interpretation] So page 3. Here we see a cross-section of all

4 this information obtained through the investigation and questioning of

5 Yellow Wasps members and in paragraph -- the last paragraph it says:

6 "Available information indicates that Dusan Vuckovic, also known

7 as Repic, had committed a massacre - genocide against citizens of the

8 Serbian Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina of Muslim ethnicity." Is this

9 consistent with your conclusion of a moment ago, that conclusion being

10 based on your investigation and the questioning of the Yellow Wasps?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So there was information that, among other crimes, the Yellow

13 Wasps had also been responsible for war crimes. We already established

14 that war crimes were under the purview of the state security, and the

15 Public Security Service dealt with other serious crimes committed by the

16 Yellow Wasps?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That procedure that had been started, I'll show you 1D00-5858,

19 that's a criminal report sent to the District Public Prosecutor's Office

20 in Sabac against Dusan Vuckovic and Vojin Vuckovic on charges from 1992.

21 This criminal report is dated 1993. Have you seen this before?

22 A. I'm not familiar with this report. I don't know who wrote it. I

23 can see the letterhead Valjevo, but I think it was all done in

24 coordination with the national security of Serbia and the national

25 security of Republika Srpska because the state security had collected a

Page 3800

1 lot of material by that time, also drawing on our work. We provided all

2 the additional information we had obtained through other investigations

3 because this was a very serious event that deserved to be prosecuted

4 immediately.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness P322.

7 Your Honours, if there is no objection from the Prosecution I would like

8 to tender 1D00-5858. It's a criminal report. In fact, the entire

9 criminal file concerning the war crime charges against these two

10 perpetrators, Vojin Vuckovic, aka Zuca, and the other Vuckovic, Dusan

11 Vuckovic, aka Repic for war crimes committed in 1992.

12 MR. HANNIS: I do have an objection, Your Honour. This witness

13 said he had not see the document before. I haven't had a chance to

14 examine it, and if we are going to talk about the case that was filed in

15 Serbia against the Yellow Wasps then I would like Your Honours to see the

16 whole file the entire history of the case rather than just this document.

17 So I object at this time.

18 JUDGE HALL: In addition to that, Mr. Zecevic, can you assist me

19 as to the point of seeking to exhibit this?

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, the -- there is a question

21 whether the allegation from the Office of the Prosecutor is that the

22 criminal complaint against these perpetrators for war crimes has never

23 been filed. The fact is --

24 MR. HANNIS: In the Republika Srpska.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Correct. In the Republika Srpska. The witness

Page 3801

1 confirmed that this job was done in collaboration between the state

2 security of Republika Srpska, state security of Republika Serbia. And

3 what I'm offering --

4 MR. HANNIS: And the military, as I understood it.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: And the military, yes. And the military security.

6 And what I'm offering is a document which confirms that those persons

7 were actually prosecuted for the war crimes in the territory of Republic

8 of Serbia for the war crimes committed in the territory of Republika

9 Srpska but according to our law, both -- both jurisdictions have the

10 power to conduct this case because they both, these two persons, they

11 were both the citizens of Republika Serbia, and that is why the case was

12 conducted in Republika Serbia. I think it's a very important case, and I

13 can probably show the witness page by page and then if Mr. Hannis will

14 appreciate it then. Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE HALL: Do I understand this to be towards the end of

16 refuting the suggestion that these matters were ignored?

17 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, Your Honours. Yes.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE HALL: Do you have something to add, Mr. Hannis?

20 MR. HANNIS: If I may. If the point is to show that there was a

21 prosecution in Serbia, you already have evidence in this case about that.

22 Witness ST-144 I believe testify that there was a trial of Repic in

23 Serbia, in Sabac, Repic and his brother. He identified the picture in

24 the newspaper article about that trial. So if that's the only point he

25 is offering it for you already have evidence about that. My objection is

Page 3802

1 this, is not the witness to put that document in through. And my other

2 objection is, I think you need to see the entire file and related

3 materials to address the point about whether it was ignored and why it

4 was prosecuted, where it was prosecuted, et cetera.

5 JUDGE HALL: We are not unmindful of Mr. -- of the basis of

6 Mr. Hannis's objection, but looking at the broad picture and applying the

7 rules of relevance, the simpler course, it seems to us, would be for the

8 document to be admitted at this stage. So we order it admitted, we allow

9 it to be tendered and admitted and marked as a Defence exhibit.

10 Because ... [Microphone not activated]

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D86, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE HALL: I need to repeat the last phrase that I used because

14 my mike was off. It's because he can speak to the contents. They hadn't

15 picked that up.

16 MR. HANNIS: Well, I am, sorry Your Honour, I understood he

17 hadn't seen it before. I'm not sure which part of the contents he spoke

18 to.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the witness was conducting the investigation.

20 He was the one -- he was the investigator that took the statement of

21 Repic, took the list which he gave, the list of the persons who were

22 detained in Celopek and so on and so on. This is all the part of your

23 direct examination, Mr. Hannis.

24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, but I wasn't aware that he spoke to the

25 contents -- and I see we are in open session. I wasn't aware that he

Page 3803

1 spoke to the contents of the criminal charges in Serbia, and I thought

2 the evidence was that that part of the investigation was turned over to

3 the national security because --

4 JUDGE HALL: If I may, Mr. Hannis, it seems to me that you

5 appear -- it appears that you are attributing to the Defence in seeking

6 to tender this document greater reliance in terms of details and in fact,

7 they are making it -- it's a -- as I understand the reason for the

8 Defence seeking to tender this document is that it's a more -- it's a

9 more -- it's a broader and principle devoid of the details that seem to

10 concern you.

11 MR. HANNIS: I understand your point, Your Honour. I'll sit down

12 for now.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Q. Sir, look in front of you, you'll see P322. It's a criminal

15 report from 8 August 1992 against Vojin Vuckovic, aka Zuco, and another

16 ten persons on charges of --

17 A. The crimes they committed in Zvornik.

18 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with this report?

19 A. Yes, I was involved in drafting it.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we quickly show

21 the witness P317, item 19.

22 Q. Or let me ask you, you know that a prosecution followed this

23 criminal report, and indictment was issued, and they were tried in court?

24 A. Yes. They were investigated but in Bijeljina, not in Zvornik

25 where they should have been. But there were some technical reasons why

Page 3804

1 this whole process did not take place in Zvornik, the Prosecutor refused

2 to deal with this. He went to the front line rather, he was afraid of

3 the Yellow Wasps and their threats. All this was going on in the course

4 of a month in Zvornik and we were not aware of what the problem was until

5 the republic prosecutor came to us on a visit to ask what was going on.

6 And he said the people are in remand custody for two months now, why is

7 the proceeding stopped? And then the prosecutor in Bijeljina accepted

8 this case. And Ms. Biljana Simeunovic the investigating judge took the

9 case over and handled it.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I see the clock, Your Honours, I'm

11 about to move to my last topic, Bosanski Samac namely one of the

12 municipalities in the indictment, and I would like to question the

13 witness on it. Maybe this is the right time for a break. I have about

14 20 more minutes with this witness.

15 JUDGE HALL: If you can't efficiently use the next three minutes

16 I suppose we could take the break at this point.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, just one question about the transcript, something that

22 we discussed before. On page 22, line 9 -- lines 9 to 17 you said how

23 you went to Brcko for investigations into war crimes committed by some

24 individuals in Brcko pursuant to orders from your superiors. And you

25 said that on the basis of those investigations and the information that

Page 3805

1 you obtained at that time, the matters were processed and certain

2 individuals were sentenced for those crimes committed in the Brcko area.

3 Then you mentioned one person, one or several of them, and the

4 names were not recorded in the transcript. I would just like to ask you

5 to tell us who these people were, or this person.

6 A. I was talking about Ranko Cesic. I was informed that our

7 statements and notes that we took from the Bosniaks who had remained in

8 June and July of 1992. I remember a difficult statement by one lady

9 whose 14-year-old son and father and husband were killed, and she and her

10 daughter were raped. It was very brutal. It's a very difficult

11 statement. It was a difficult statement for me. I remember it was me

12 and my colleague Ljubisa Markovic who took the statement.

13 I couldn't really give you the names of the people who should

14 have been charged, but the operatives from Brcko, Dragisa Tesic and

15 Kaurinovic, Kaurinovic, I'm trying to remember his first name who were

16 working together as operatives in Brcko at the time, they helped us about

17 this, so they know about this a bit more. They are local citizens and

18 had been working at that police station for a long time before the war.

19 Q. Well, now that you've mentioned this, can you please tell us, is

20 it not true, is it not a fact that something that made the investigation

21 of such cases, such serious crimes even more difficult was the absence of

22 victims, you couldn't get to the victims or eye-witnesses of those crimes

23 because they had either fled to the other side to the Federation

24 territory or had left Bosnia-Herzegovina altogether, is it correct that

25 this actually was a major problem in your investigations?

Page 3806

1 A. Yes, there were such situations, Serbs who had committed such

2 things had escaped from Brcko. We had information about some of them

3 that they had gone to Greece for a holiday or somewhere else and also the

4 victims were absent. So these circumstances together were -- I mean, a

5 case is alive as long as the perpetrators and the victims are alive.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last thing

7 that the witness said.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The last sentence that you said was the time will come for them

10 to be looked at, is that what you said?

11 A. Yes, that is what I said.

12 Q. Thank you. Now we are moving to Bosanski Samac. Your testimony,

13 if I'm not mistaken, was that the Crisis Staff, or rather, the president

14 and the Presidency of the Crisis Staff -- just one second, please.

15 That Stefan Todorovic was appointed chief of the SJB by the

16 Presidency and that he was not given a decision of an appointment either

17 by the CSB chief or the ministry; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, I said that, and I have that written down in my diary. At

19 the beginning when I had my first interview with Mr. Stefan Todorovic

20 about the events, I would like to tell the Trial Chamber that this is

21 documented in my notebook, and the notebook has been copied, so it's a

22 sort of document.

23 Stefan Todorovic did not have a decision of appointment because

24 this was on the 17th of April 1992 when the paramilitary formations burst

25 in. They were headed by Dragan Djordjevic, Lugar, Debeli, I don't

Page 3848

1 Registry. 1D79.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness number?

3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Since it's not a protected

4 witness, I believe I can say his name, it's Dragan Majkic.

5 JUDGE HALL: And you said it was only marked for identification

6 because there was no English translation available? Mr. Zecevic concurs

7 in that view?

8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MS. KORNER: No objection, Your Honour.

10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness is ST-187.

11 JUDGE HALL: So it's now admitted and marked as an exhibit.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while we are waiting, I just looked at

15 the transcript and I said they all relate to Sanski Most at line 17, it

16 just says they relate to blank. Line 17 of page 72.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, sir, please, we invite you to make your solemn

19 declaration, sir.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir, you may be seated.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 WITNESS: ADIL DRAGANOVIC

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 3849

1 JUDGE HALL: Would you begin by giving us your name, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Adil Draganovic.

3 JUDGE HALL: And your date of birth is when?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 30th of August, 1958.

5 JUDGE HALL: What is your profession?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1952.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I'm an attorney at law. I work

8 as an attorney.

9 JUDGE HALL: And what is your ethnicity?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Muslim by ethnicity. A

11 Bosniak.

12 JUDGE HALL: Have you testified previously before this Tribunal

13 or in trials back in your country of residence?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I did testify

15 before this Tribunal in a number of cases, and also before the

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina court. And before the district court in Banja Luka in

17 relation to war crimes.

18 JUDGE HALL: In which cases did you testify before this Tribunal,

19 do you remember?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember testifying in the

21 Brdjanin Talic case, in the Biljana Plavsic case. I think my statement

22 was used in the Krajisnik case. These are the cases.

23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Well, inasmuch as you have testified

24 previously and by profession you are an attorney, you will be well

25 familiar with the procedure, and I would now invite the Prosecution who

Page 3850

1 has called you to examine you in chief.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

4 Q. Just in addition to those details you have just given to the

5 Trial Chamber, can you just by answering yes or no, if you would, give us

6 some more personal details. You come from Sanski Most and were raised

7 there, went to school there as well?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. You went to high school in Banja Luka and after that you studied

10 law in Sarajevo?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. And you were appointed as a judge in Bosanska Dubica in January

13 of 1983?

14 A. No, it wasn't that date. I was appointed a judge in Bosanska

15 Dubica in 1980 something, 1981, 1982, or 1983, I'm not sure.

16 Q. Early 1980s. Eventually, you transferred --

17 A. Perhaps.

18 Q. You transferred to Sanski Most in November of 1987 and in 1988

19 you became the president of the court in Sanski Most?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. You were still president of the court when you were arrested in

22 1992 in --

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. My apologies, in May of 1992.

25 A. In May 1992, the Serbian authorities, or rather, the SDS Crisis

Page 3851

1 Staff of the Sanski Most municipality relieved me illegally of my duties,

2 and according to the law of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was de

3 facto and de jure the president of the court, even though I was not

4 performing those duties during the war up until 1995 when I returned to

5 Sanski Most.

6 Q. Thanks. Thanks for that. After 1995 you resumed your judicial

7 duties and as you explained moments ago, you are currently an attorney?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. You told the Trial Chamber of the cases in which you have

10 testified. One of the cases you mentioned was that of the case against

11 Mr. Brdjanin. Did you testify in that case over a period of 11 days in

12 2002 and in particular on the 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th of April, and again

13 on the 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 21st, 22nd, and 23rd of May?

14 A. That is correct. It's all written down.

15 Q. That's right. And I think you were questioned on that occasion

16 by my colleague Ms. Korner who you can see on my right; correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. Thank you. In that particular case when you testified, did you

19 endeavour to provide as accurate and honest a testimony as you could?

20 A. Of course, yes.

21 Q. Thank you. And if you were to be questioned again about all of

22 those matters and all of those issues and all of those facts that you

23 were questioned about back then in 2002, would you repeat the same

24 evidence?

25 A. Absolutely, yes.

Page 3852

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the transcripts, if Your Honours please.

2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, we were just asking ourselves

5 whether the package that you are seeking to tender includes all the

6 documents that were tendered through this witness in Brdjanin, or

7 whether, as we would have expected the Prosecution to do, whether you

8 have made a selection among those documents so as to ensure that no other

9 documents come into this case other than those that are strictly relevant

10 and have probative value in relation to this indictment. So have you

11 made a selection among the Brdjanin documents so as to ensure that we

12 don't receive anything that is irrelevant?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. If I can just explain very briefly

14 the remaining body of documents that I expect will now fully go into

15 evidence and be admitted into evidence. We originally provided you with

16 a selection of documents extracted on the basis of this witness's

17 testimony in the Brdjanin case. You went through the documentation and

18 rejected a number of documents that left a reduced, I'll call it, body of

19 documentary evidence. Since then, other witnesses have talked about some

20 of those documents as well, and some of those documents have in turn been

21 given full Exhibit numbers, so that in turn reduces the list again. The

22 residue that you are left with is 61 documents, I understand. And that's

23 under the order that you made on the 2nd of October 2009 goes now into

24 evidence.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, we have a couple of observations to

Page 3853

1 make in relation to 92 ter witnesses and documents. On the 9th of

2 October we filed a request for reconsideration on this very issue, so

3 it's still a live issue because there has been no ruling on our request

4 for reconsideration. It's precisely those decisions of early October

5 that are still outstanding. We've asked you to reconsider the decision

6 of early October based on the pre-trial ruling that only exhibits on the

7 65 ter list can be admitted. That's the first point I wish to make.

8 That matter is still not resolved.

9 The second point is this, that since the ruling in early October

10 we've been proceeding on the basis that only certain exhibits from the

11 previous testimony are being tendered in this case from witnesses who

12 testified in the previous case. Now, in our submission that's not the

13 correct way to proceed. If the whole transcript comes in and the person

14 adopts that transcript as their previous testimony and they would give

15 the same answers here today then all exhibits must be tendered, both

16 exhibits during direct, cross, and judges' questions, because those

17 exhibits may very well go to the credibility of the witness, they may

18 very well have information that is relevant to the Defence case and

19 certainly they must be there for the context so that when you go back and

20 read that previous testimony, which is considered to be the same

21 testimony as in this trial, you have that --

22 JUDGE HALL: If I might interrupt you, Mr. O'Sullivan. Aren't

23 you forgetting one phrase in your formulation, that is, insofar as is

24 relevant.

25 MR. O'SULLIVAN: But if the whole testimony has come in, you've

Page 3854

1 said that the whole transcript is relevant by your ruling.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. O'Sullivan, please, it's an enormous job.

3 It's going to exhaust everybody's time and energy if we are to sit and

4 meticulously go through the previous testimonies in order to weed out

5 passages that may not be strictly relevant to this case. We take the

6 testimonies from earlier cases by and large as they come. If it is

7 possible to make a selection of the testimonies, the Prosecution will do

8 so and has done so, I believe, on several occasions, by yellowing the

9 relevant parts. But otherwise, I think, you know, it's not worth the

10 effort to be so meticulous as to go through the testimonies.

11 As for the documents, as for the documents, they have to be

12 relevant to this case, and if there are documents that clearly have

13 nothing to do with this case and with this indictment, I don't see why we

14 should have them in. I'm sorry. If you want -- I mean, this is what the

15 Prosecution is tendering. If any of those documents that were not

16 tendered through the Prosecution, if you wish to tender them, you can do

17 so in your cross-examination.

18 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Well, that certainly isn't our understanding of

19 what 92 ter is. The 92 ter testimony of this man over 11 days from

20 Brdjanin is an exhibit or are exhibits, 11 exhibits in this case, and the

21 Prosecution is relying on those. And they are relying -- the witness is

22 required to say whether he adopts that, and he did. That includes his

23 cross-examination. I don't believe that this list proffered by the

24 Prosecution of 61 includes -- I may be wrong, but I don't believe it

25 includes his cross-examination documents, and those are relevant.

Page 3855

1 Absolutely they are relevant.

2 JUDGE HALL: Anyway, we are going to have to pick this up

3 tomorrow morning.

4 Mr. Draganovic, although your testimony hasn't begun, you having

5 been sworn as a witness, I am to remind you that you can't communicate

6 with the lawyers from either side or discuss your testimony with anyone

7 outside the courtroom. So we will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in

8 this Chamber.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

12 November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.