Page 4199
1 Friday, 4 December 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 May I have the appearances, please.
10 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Tom Hannis with
11 Crispian Smith on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Deirdre Montgomery, and Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for
14 Stanisic Defence this morning.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
16 Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic. Thank you.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 the witness takes the stand?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honour, before the witness arrives, we
20 were instructed by the Trial Chamber to expedite our response in relation
21 to the motion to amend the Rule 65 ter list filed by the Prosecution
22 sometime ago. And we are informing the Trial Chamber that we are not
23 objecting to it. So thank you very much.
24 MR. PANTELIC: After careful and detailed consideration,
25 Your Honours, we do not have objection.
Page 4200
1 JUDGE HALL
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE HALL
4 invite Mr. Zecevic to continue his cross-examination, remind you that you
5 are still on your oath.
6 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: MILAN TRBOJEVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, before we begin there's just something that I
14 would like to clear up. Yesterday in the course of my questioning, on
15 page 4.162, line 20, and 4.163, line 1, if you recall, we discussed the
16 attempts of the Serb side to block within the institutions of the system
17 the request for the declaration of independence [Realtime transcript read
18 in error "incompetent dependence"] of Bosnia and Herzegovina
19 said then that such possibilities were more than limited, or rather,
20 non-existent; but that in spite of that, the president, Alija Izetbegovic
21 would have signed such a document and sent it to the international
22 community, to which I ask whether he would have done that without the
23 approval of the Assembly and you confirmed that. Do you recall our
24 exchange on that topic?
25 A. Yes, I do.
Page 4201
1 Q. Well, the reason I'm asking is because on these pages that I've
2 mentioned, in the transcript is says that such a document would have been
3 signed by the speaker of the parliament of the Assembly, but that's of
4 course not true because the president of the parliament, or the Assembly,
5 was Mr. Krajisnik at the time?
6 A. Well, that's not correct because we were discussing this within
7 our group, how to actually postpone the vote on this, and whether we
8 would ask or call for the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina
9 maybe not. And something that I omitted to mention yesterday was that
10 one the topics emerged was that we should actually address this issue to
11 the army command, at the time it was still the Yugoslav People's Army, so
12 that it could within its obligations, legal obligations, intervene in
13 order to prevent such a signing of a document that the president of the
14 Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic, would sign without the approval of the
15 Assembly.
16 And on that occasion, Karadzic said that he could not go and see
17 General Djurdjevac, if I recall correctly, he was the commander of the
18 2nd Military District, that he couldn't go there and ask that of
19 Djurdjevac because he was one of the leaders of a national parties which,
20 as far as the JNA was concerned, still were not fully legitimate, as it
21 were. So he could not really expect any kind of support from them as for
22 this position of the Serb side.
23 Q. Just two things here, please. So when we talked yesterday, you
24 said that the president of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, would sign
25 that document and send it to the international community, or rather,
Page 4202
1 would have signed it and sent it to the international community without
2 the approval of the Assembly if that situation should arise?
3 A. Yes, that was our assessment.
4 Q. Very well. And you said here that Karadzic told you that he
5 could not really take this up with General Djurdjevac, and if I
6 understood you correctly, Karadzic said that he could not influence in
7 any way the Yugoslav People's Army, or rather, General Djurdjevac,
8 because General Djurdjevac did not support, as it were, the positions of
9 nationalist or ethnic parties because he was a member of the
10 Yugoslav People's Army, which was ideologically opposed to the SDS.
11 Correct?
12 A. Yes, that's what he he said.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Zecevic, just a small thing regarding the
14 transcript. On page 2, line 16, the transcript has come out to say that:
15 "We discussed the attempts of the Serb side to block within the
16 institutions of the system the request for the declaration of incompetent
17 dependence," I think the witness said "independence."
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I wasn't
19 following the transcript in full. [Interpretation] Thank you,
20 Your Honours.
21 Q. Witness, let's resume. Mr. Trbojevic, thank you for this
22 clarification. Now, you recall that on the 17th of June, 1992
23 operative plan of the army -- of the government was adopted. Do you
24 remember that? Or a plan of work?
25 A. Well, I can't recall that I remember the date exactly.
Page 4203
1 Q. But do you recall that it was adopted?
2 A. Well, yes, there was some work done in that respect.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up
4 1D00-552 on the screens, and perhaps the usher could help us and pass on
5 to Mr. Trbojevic this document in hard copy.
6 Q. This is a cover letter dated 17th July 1992, signed by the
7 government secretary, Mr. Lakicevic. This is a document from the
8 government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it's a cover
9 letter with the plan of work for the measures in order to prevent the
10 disruption in conditions in a state of war, and then ministries are
11 called upon to give their own proposals and suggestions, and a dead-line
12 of the 20th of July is given. For the transcript, just to say that it
13 was signed by Mr. Nedeljko Lakic. I misread the last name. So this is
14 correct, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please pull up the
17 second page.
18 Q. On the second page, this is the title page of this document, we
19 see again that we have the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
20 government, an operative programme of measures to prevent social
21 disruption in conditions of a state of war. And perhaps by error, or
22 rather, the error was probably in the cover letter, but the date here is
23 the 17th of June, 1992. In any case it's either June or July. Do you
24 recall when this came about approximately?
25 A. Well, I can't really recall anymore the work that we did on this
Page 4204
1 programme, but it begins with constitution amendments. And, you know,
2 would you just pose the question.
3 Q. Well, I just wanted to see if we could determine the exact date,
4 but since you mentioned that these are constitutional amendments, I
5 assume that it would rather be June than July?
6 A. Well, I can't really recall when we did this work, and I'm not
7 claiming that this was actually adopted, because the Law on Territorial
8 Organisation was never on the agenda, although it was constantly being
9 discussed how districts should be set up and so on. But that never came
10 to light actually, so that President Djeric, the prime minister, asked me
11 on a couple of occasions why that hadn't been followed through, but,
12 well, that's how it went.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please take a look at
14 page 3 -- or rather, 4 of this document. In B/C/S that's page 2 in your
15 hard copy.
16 Q. Under item 3, we see that there is a decree on delineating or
17 establishing border crossings and organising customs control and, among
18 other things, this is the responsibility of the Ministry of the Interior.
19 Now, the day before yesterday when you were questioned by my
20 learned friend Mr. Hannis, he put to you a number of government
21 conclusions that related specifically to this matter, the establishment
22 of border crossings and organisation of customs control. Do you recall
23 that?
24 A. Well, I do know that we discussed this need, that this was a
25 necessity to establish a service that will check all the goods that are
Page 4205
1 imported and exported out of the country, in other words, customs
2 control, so that we could actually have an operational authority there,
3 that it could function, and I recall that we appointed as director or
4 perhaps acting director of this republic customs office, a certain --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I know he did not accept this
7 but how it actually transpired in the end I don't know. I couldn't tell
8 you now.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. But do you remember that there were certain comments made by
11 Mr. Stanisic in government sessions? You were shown some documents in
12 that respect yesterday that dealt with, among other things, the setting
13 of up of the customs or, rather, border service; do you recall that?
14 A. Well, not really.
15 Q. Do you recall that this setting up establishment of border
16 crossings, in other words, the establishment of the border police was
17 actually set up and that it started their work on some of the border
18 crossings in Republika Srpska in the course of 1992?
19 A. I do recall that we made some decisions as to which places will
20 be the future border crossings. This was probably within the competence
21 of the Ministry of the Interior to actually man those border crossings,
22 to provide the physical control there.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we can now take a look at page 5
25 in e-court. On your hard copy, that will be page 3. Items 8 and 9.
Page 4206
1 Q. This relates to the drafting of wartime organisation and
2 systemisation, development of wartime organisation and specification of
3 jobs. And it says all ministries, other republic organs and
4 organisations and state agencies are to draft their wartime organisation
5 and specification of jobs implying a transition to wartime operation.
6 And then in parenthesis it says determining the minimum number of
7 employees needed for good performance and so on and so forth, and there
8 is mention here of a war commission or commissions.
9 Now, do you recall that this drafting of the wartime organisation
10 and specification of jobs had been a strict legal obligation in the
11 former Yugoslavia
12 Defence and --
13 A. Yes, there was a schematic of jobs which have to function in
14 crisis situation up to mobilisation spots and relocation of companies,
15 et cetera.
16 Q. And I presume that this was the basis for this obligation for all
17 the ministries and why it found its way in the operative programme of the
18 government of Republika Srpska?
19 A. Yes, that's one on the one hand; but on the other hand you have
20 the duty of the people to be -- to heed the call-up, mobilisation
21 call-up. Sometimes you never knew who would show up for work and who
22 would show up for mobilisation. And this is why organisations had to
23 determine this matter so that the army could know who is going to stay
24 behind to work in an organisation or in a company and who is going to
25 show up at mobilisation spots.
Page 4207
1 Q. Very well. The next I'd like to show you is page 8 in e-court
2 and that would be page 6 in your copy. Item 18. It goes for an
3 obligation under this operative programme to draft rules on internal
4 organisation of the Ministry of the Interior in wartime conditions. And
5 under that heading it says:
6 "Internal organisation" it means the Ministry of the Interior,
7 "needs to be adjusted to the purview and tasks in wartime conditions,
8 namely: Protection and physical securing of installations of special
9 importance to defence, and protection, and then control of movements
10 across the state borders, personal security," et cetera, et cetera, all
11 the tasks as laid down by law and that is envisaged as an obligation of
12 the Ministry of the Interior.
13 You recall that at several occasions, the government got reported
14 by the Ministry of the Interior on how they were working on these rules
15 of internal organisation in -- the first draft which was sent to centres
16 of public security was dated beginning of September 1992. Do you recall
17 that?
18 A. Yes, in principle I recall that there were discussions about
19 that. This is the same thing as the previous matter that we discussed.
20 This is just customary and usual matter to be dealt with.
21 Q. This is a voluminous document?
22 A. Yes, it is. Somebody must have gathered drafts and proposals
23 from all of the ministries, maybe drafting the government law and then
24 listed all the ministries quoting the obligations, et cetera.
25 Q. No, I'm talking about the rules of internal organisation of the
Page 4208
1 MUP, this is a voluminous and lengthy document; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's look up page 9 in e-court. It would be page 7 in your
4 version, in your hard copy. Items 21 and 22. As you can see, item 21
5 deals with:
6 "Order to take off the road any motor vehicle without proper
7 documentation."
8 I think that yesterday we discussed that there was an instruction
9 and a conclusion of the government to this effect. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes. And this request that an order be issued to take such
11 vehicles off the road is a repetition of something which is enshrined in
12 law. There's no possibility in law for a vehicle without proof of title
13 and without proper insurance to be used on roads. This is one of the
14 usual tasks of the Ministry of Interior to perform.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, item 22:
16 "Decision on an ex-territorial principle organising active-duty
17 police force."
18 I think that we commented a document yesterday dated November,
19 and you confirmed that the influence of local organs on members of the
20 MUP was a huge problem, and obviously a huge problem for the ministry.
21 And now it reads, under 22:
22 "Due to the demonstrated extreme susceptibility of municipal
23 organs of Internal Affairs to the influence of local authorities and
24 family connections, it is necessary to establish criteria according to
25 which only a minimum number of employees of a police station may be
Page 4209
1 natives of the given locality."
2 First of all, let me ask you: Do you recall this problem that we
3 discussed yesterday, and that problem dating from 1992, don't you?
4 A. Yes, I do recall, and when this is -- concerned police workers in
5 local police stations were predominantly inhabitants of that
6 municipality. People living in that local community and by function and
7 in terms of their remit, they were connected with the Ministry of the
8 Interior. But people from Sarajevo
9 in other parts of the country, most of them were locals. They worked
10 where they lived. And this is one of the interpretations of this problem
11 and that the author of this was not quite familiar with this situation,
12 in my opinion.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's go to page 10, item 23 in
14 e-court.
15 Q. And Mr. Trbojevic, that would be page 8 in your hard copy. Goes
16 for:
17 "Operative programme of activities to secure the prerequisite for
18 efficient functioning of the Internal Affairs service."
19 And the Ministry of the Interior is obliged to co-operate with
20 the Ministry of Justice and Ministry of Defence. What I'm interested in
21 in particular is paragraph 3 of this item, that would be on the next page
22 in the English version, first paragraph on the page, which reads:
23 "Within the framework of its activities, the ministry and its
24 services should make a special provision for an organised approach to
25 work related to data collection and processing, and the documentation and
Page 4210
1 genocide perpetrated against the civilian population."
2 Can you see this?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Please tell me, in this document under item 21, there is no
5 mention --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Item 23, interpreter's correction.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. There's no mention of war crimes and genocide perpetrated against
9 no particular group, but any perpetrators and the victims coming from any
10 ethnic group; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct, yes.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] And then last page, page 22 in the
13 e-court, item 66.
14 Q. That would be the last page, page 20 in your hard copy, item 66.
15 It is an "order to establish a state commission to investigate extreme
16 cases of theft and other abuses." And it reads:
17 "Establish an interdepartmental commission made up of
18 representatives of the Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Justice, and the
19 responsible department, which would conduct investigations based on
20 reports received by the MUP."
21 This would be in -- this item of the operative programme and plan
22 is in keeping with what we discussed in terms of the government's
23 conclusions that have been sent to ministries on several occasions in
24 terms of TAS abuses, concerning oil, et cetera. Is that correct?
25 A. That's correct. This is something which went a long time. There
Page 4211
1 were cases of procurement of oil worth millions of Deutschemarks and
2 there were questions who took the money. The Golf vehicles from TAS were
3 the most prominent example and they were at the forefront.
4 Q. Thank you. If I understood you correctly, you think that this is
5 a working material, working document and that you are not sure whether
6 it's been -- it was ever adopted by the government?
7 A. I think it's a working document but I'm not sure. I don't know
8 whether it was adopted in its entirety, but what I'm sure about is that
9 there was discussion about this and the ministries tried to work along
10 these lines, since these are legal obligations of each of those
11 ministries mentioned here.
12 Q. So if I understand you correctly, all those ministries performed
13 tasks and duties mentioned in this operative plan?
14 A. Yes. This was an initiative which was sent to the organs.
15 Whether it was adopted in this form or in an amended form, that's what
16 I'm not sure about.
17 Q. Sir, you saw page 1 and Nedeljko Lakic's signature. Do you
18 recall his signature?
19 A. I'm not a graphologist but it does look like his signature, very
20 much so.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
23 like to submit this document be tendered into evidence.
24 MR. HANNIS: My only objection, and maybe it just goes to weight,
25 really deals with there are a number of handwritten notations in the
Page 4212
1 original about whether something is completed or pending or question
2 marks, et cetera. I don't think this witness is able to help us with who
3 wrote those and when they wrote them. So with that understanding, I
4 guess I don't object but I think that is something that you'll have to
5 take in mind when considering this document.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 the Chamber would have to take note of that. So the document is admitted
8 and marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D96, Your Honours.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Trbojevic, I cannot recall, but I believe it
12 was the day before yesterday, maybe it was yesterday, Mr. Hannis showed
13 you a document, P233, minutes from a government session, where it stated
14 that the government ordered Mr. Mico Stanisic to determine and establish
15 the security situation at Bijeljina. Do you recall commenting that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I found the reference, that would be pages 4099 and 4100, dating
18 the day before yesterday. I would like to show you a document which is
19 connected with the establishment of the situation in Bijeljina. I
20 believe that my learned colleague asked you about those facts, but he
21 didn't show you any documents. It is 65 ter document 194. It is a
22 document of the Ministry of the Interior, Centre of Security Service of
23 Bijeljina, dated 29th of July, 1992. It is signed by the then head of
24 the Security Services Centre.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If I could ask Mr. Usher to give
Page 4213
1 Mr. Trbojevic a hard copy.
2 Q. This document was sent to the president of the Presidency of the
3 Serbian Republic
4 the first page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you ever seen this document?
7 A. I don't think so. I think I responded to -- replied to the
8 Prosecutor that I had not seen it.
9 Q. Let's go to page 2, please. It's starting with a heading
10 "Information," and it reads:
11 "Information on the involvement and activities of the Ministry of
12 Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in establishing
13 authority and the Rule of Law in the area covered by the Centre for
14 Security Services Bijeljina." And it -- that document, Mr. Andan
15 explains what had happened between the 27th of June, 1992, when an expert
16 team of the MUP, of the Ministry of the Interior, of the Serbian Republic
17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived to Bijeljina.
18 Can you see that? That would be on page 2 and page 3 in e-court,
19 and in your hard copy, first and second page, the orientation would be
20 this 27th of June, 1992, for you. Can you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As far as I can recall, this end of June corresponds to the
23 request and the government's conclusion sent to Mico Stanisic instructing
24 him to establish the situation in Bijeljina, roughly?
25 A. Yes, it does correspond. Prosecutor asked me whether Stanisic
Page 4214
1 went to Bijeljina. I answered that I did not know that, but Andan now
2 reports that he went to Bijeljina. I'm not sure whether this is the same
3 action or not, but it could be.
4 Q. Now, please, the last document, page 6 in e-court, and page 5 in
5 your hard copy. The penultimate paragraph, which reads:
6 "Finally, to complete the picture, we must stress that there were
7 fierce opposition and resistance to the involvement of the expert team of
8 the MUP of the Serbian Republic
9 For example, some members of the expert team were threatened with
10 execution, various misinformation was put into circulation and lies were
11 spread about the alleged on-site activities and the rule of terror of the
12 expert team in the field, protest rallies against the 'newcomers' were
13 organised, and three unsuccessful attacks against the CSB building with
14 heavy weapons were carried out in order to seize the building and banish
15 the expert team of the MUP of the Serbian Republic
16 Mr. Trbojevic, you read what is stated here and what
17 Mr. Dragan Andan, chief of the security services centre, wrote. Are you
18 familiar with those incidents of armed attacks with heavy weapons against
19 the building of the CSB
20 A. I don't know anything about that.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, sir, would you please read the very
22 last portion, the very last sentence in the document. It's handwritten.
23 And I believe this is Mr. Radovan Karadzic's signature. Would you agree
24 with me?
25 A. Yes, I can read it.
Page 4215
1 Q. Will you please answer?
2 A. "Keep enforcing order and the rule of law, Radovan Karadzic."
3 This resembles his signature. It looks like his own signature that I had
4 occasion to see.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. But in any case, it arises from this document
6 that the Ministry of the Interior again acted according to the
7 conclusions ever the government; correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] In view of the fact that this
11 witness was unable to authenticate this document or recognise it, I
12 propose that it be MFI
13 witness list of the Prosecution and we will probably have occasion to put
14 this document to him when he comes to the stand.
15 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, but actually based on my prior
16 understandings, I have no reason to doubt the authenticity. I don't
17 object to admitting it now.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Even better. Thank you very much, Mr. Hannis.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D97, Your Honours.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you said something to this effect during your
23 evidence, about in July, approximately at that time, the Ministry of the
24 Interior set up its seat, its headquarters in Bijeljina?
25 A. Yes, it was transferred to Bijeljina. I can't tell you the exact
Page 4216
1 date, but about that time.
2 Q. And in fact, it was only in Bijeljina that the Ministry of the
3 Interior began to operate normally, if I may use that term, as some time
4 toward the end of July 1992?
5 A. Well, I believe that the fact that they actually all came
6 together in a central building, there were finally conditions for normal
7 work.
8 Q. Do you know that from mid-July and on, the Ministry of the
9 Interior held so-called collegium meetings with all the chiefs of
10 Security Services Centre every month, all of those who could actually
11 attend?
12 A. Well, I did hear of these collegium meetings and I heard of that
13 being the ministry's usual mode of work. I never attended one of those,
14 but I know that this was common knowledge. They discussed in these
15 meetings important issues that related to the ministry itself.
16 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior
17 dispatched inspectors from the headquarters to conduct inspections and
18 provide instructions to Security Services Centres and some public
19 security stations, are you aware of that?
20 A. I don't know anything about that.
21 Q. I assume then that you are not aware either that these
22 inspectors, after they completed these inspections, they would also
23 conduct checks?
24 A. I don't know anything about that.
25 Q. Do you know that the Ministry of the Interior, in the course of
Page 4217
1 1992, adopted a number of significant rules of work and instructions that
2 was -- were necessitated by their work, or were necessary for their work;
3 do you know that?
4 A. Well, I can't say that I know about that, but if they were
5 published in the Official Gazettes, then I probably had occasion to see
6 them. But I can't really recall. I remember that there was some work
7 done on the Law on Citizenship and there was some work that I
8 participated in personally, but as for the rules of service, I don't know
9 anything about that.
10 Q. Very well. Are you aware of a document called: "The instruction
11 on the urgent, current and occasional reporting, statistical reporting in
12 Ministry of the Interior organs," dated October 1992? This is document
13 1D51, an exhibit already. I will show it to you and perhaps you will
14 recognise it. Have you heard of this document, this instruction?
15 A. No, I haven't. I don't know about it.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist.
17 Please let Mr. Trbojevic see this document. Maybe that will help him
18 refresh his memory.
19 Q. Have you ever seen this document?
20 A. I don't think so.
21 Q. Very well. Thank you.
22 Let me then just read out to you in view of the fact that you
23 haven't seen this document, but maybe you've heard of these things. Have
24 you heard of a document entitled: "Instruction Issued in 1992: An
25 instruction on the rules of conduct of MUP members." And as a reference,
Page 4218
1 this was Exhibit 1D50 in this case. Have you heard ever of such a
2 document?
3 A. No, I don't think so.
4 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, have you ever heard of the binding instruction
5 during conducting searches? For reference purposes, that's 1D52.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Have you heard of a document entitled: "Instructions on the
8 methods on preparing annual reports"? For your reference, this is 1D53.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that the ministry adopted the
11 rules on disciplinary responsibility in a state of imminent threat of war
12 and in a state of war? This was Exhibit 1D54 in this case.
13 A. I can say that I know that -- well, I can't say that I know that
14 such rules have been adopted, but I do know that there was work done on
15 drafting rules, both in the army and in the police. And I know that I
16 participated at the request of the Ministry of Defence in one such group
17 who worked on that, but how the thing was done within the police, I
18 really don't know.
19 Q. But you do know that there was some work done in that direction
20 in order to actually adopt such rules; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We discussed a few minutes earlier, the rules on the internal
23 organisation of MUP in a state of imminent threat of war and in a state
24 of war, and this has to do with the operative plan of the government,
25 item 18. In this case, this is document 65 ter 248, a draft of those
Page 4219
1 rules.
2 You said that you remember, recall, that the rules were drafted,
3 but do you remember whether you ever actually had it in your hands?
4 A. I don't think so.
5 Q. Very well.
6 A. But I believe that it was adopted because it would be very
7 unlikely that such a document wouldn't be adopted.
8 Q. Well, it was only adopted in early 1993 because of the government
9 ousting.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's
11 answer.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior adopted a
14 binding -- Witness, your response was not recorded in the transcript,
15 Mr. Trbojevic. When I said that these rules were adopted practically in
16 early 1993 because the government had, in the meantime, the government
17 which you were the vice-president of, had been ousted, you said
18 something.
19 A. Well, I didn't really say anything specific. I had already said
20 before that, to me, it would seem highly unlikely that such a document
21 wouldn't be adopted. Now, the fact that a few months had elapsed between
22 its drafting and adoption, now that's irrelevant.
23 Q. Well, thank you. Are you aware that the Ministry of the Interior
24 adopted a binding instruction on documenting war crimes? For reference
25 this is document 1D63. Are you aware of that?
Page 4220
1 A. Not specifically, but I do know that all the discussions on that
2 issue implied that the documents and information should be obtained and
3 from and provided by the police, because this was part of their work,
4 collecting evidence and documents on crimes committed, so that any
5 further discussion of that matter would proceed from that premise.
6 Q. This was an obligation that the police had under the Law on the
7 Interior; correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You recall that the Ministry of the Interior submitted on a
10 number of occasions information on the current security situation, this
11 information was reported to the government?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I believe that already on the 31st of May, 1992, such a report
14 was submitted, such a report on the current security situation. For
15 reference purposes, that's Exhibit P221. This is a document -- actually,
16 government minutes. Can you confirm that?
17 A. Well, I can't really confirm specifically because I can't tell
18 you which of those reports I saw -- I have seen, but I do know that there
19 were reports and there was information that was interesting to read for
20 one's own enlightenment.
21 Q. I would now like to show you document 65 ter 176. That's a
22 document coming from the Ministry of the Interior entitled "Information,"
23 a report submitted both to the president of the government, or the prime
24 minister, and the president of the Presidency.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help us with
Page 4221
1 a hard copy. The document bears the date 17th of July, 1992.
2 Q. Mr. Hannis asked you something about this document. I believe
3 that you said that you do not remember seeing this document, but let me
4 show it to you again because one of the questions of Mr. Hannis's was a
5 question about the report on the work of the state security service, if
6 you remember. Do you remember that? Do you remember that question that
7 Mr. Hannis put to you?
8 A. I don't know exactly what you mean.
9 Q. Well, Mr. Hannis asked you, the day before yesterday, about the
10 government conclusion in which the government sought a report on the work
11 of the state security service, and then he asked you whether you remember
12 ever receiving such a report, and you said that you couldn't confirm that
13 you -- but that you recall that there were a number of reports from the
14 Ministry of the Interior but you couldn't remember this particular one.
15 A. Well, that's the only thing that I can repeat now. I know that
16 there were such reports. There was some information in such reports that
17 I hadn't heard of before, but what those reports were or how they were
18 entitled, I don't know.
19 Q. Very well. Tell me now, now that you've looked at this report
20 entitled: Information on certain aspects of work done to date and the
21 tasks ahead, can you tell us, do you remember this particular document?
22 A. Well, I can't see. I would have to look through the content.
23 The subject matter was a general matter that was discussed -- being
24 discussed in those days.
25 Q. Well, just for your reference, perhaps I can show you page 9 in
Page 4222
1 e-court of the B/C/S version, the last paragraph, and in your case that's
2 on page 9. It's page 10 in the English version. And it says here the --
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in
4 e-court, please. Page 9, B/C/S; 10 in English. The last paragraph.
5 Just a moment. In English that will be on page 6, in the last paragraph,
6 in e-court. Page 6. I apologise, on page 6 that's not the last
7 paragraph but, rather, the second from the top, beginning with the words:
8 "Preventing and documenting war crimes ..." Thank you.
9 Q. You see it this document, Mr. Trbojevic, beginning with the
10 words: "Preventing and documenting war crimes"? The B/C/S copy is
11 perhaps a bit illegible, but can you find that?
12 A. I can actually make it out.
13 Q. And it reads:
14 "Prevention and documenting war crimes by using all legally
15 prescribed methods of documenting such activities," et cetera, et cetera,
16 et cetera, et cetera, and it reads that this was one of the priorities of
17 the National Security Service or state security service and public
18 security service. Can you recall that?
19 A. No, I cannot recall that. My recollection is quite the opposite
20 to this claim that it was a priority. In attempts to establish a
21 commission to investigation war crimes and what the extent for the
22 co-operation of the institute for investigating war crimes from Belgrade
23 I did not have an impression that out on the field we encountered a
24 welcoming reception in the local public security stations whenever we
25 showed up. To the contrary, we were being ignored. There was no will on
Page 4223
1 their part to co-operate. So what is written here, that this was their
2 priority, I do not believe to be true.
3 Q. Do you recall an action that the MUP, the Ministry of the
4 Interior of the Serbian Republic
5 Zvornik in July 1992 to arrest the Yellow Wasps paramilitary group and to
6 process those war crimes? Do you recall that?
7 A. Yes, I do recall the existence of that group, some meetings with
8 it, and when it was crushed. And those meetings with them were less than
9 savoury. Whenever I encountered them, these were not savoury occasions.
10 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, what I presented to you yesterday and today as
11 examples in connection with what the Ministry of the Interior was dealing
12 with at the time, could you and will you agree with me that it inevitably
13 follows from all of that that the ministry acted in keeping with the
14 operative plan and the instructions and orders of the government; isn't
15 it so?
16 A. I have to admit that for the most part, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. I mean, that conflict between Mr. Stanisic and
18 Prime Minister Djeric, did not influence to that extent the conduct and
19 activities of the ministry as part of that government, the Ministry of
20 the Interior as part of that government, in fulfilling the duties and
21 obligations that the Ministry of the Interior has under the act on
22 Internal Affairs?
23 A. Well, the reaction of Stanisic towards Djeric could not have
24 influenced the relations between Stanisic and other parts of the
25 Ministry of the Interior. I'm not sure whether it had an influence in
Page 4224
1 terms of his relationships towards and with the organs and in the
2 collegium meetings, whatever you call it.
3 Q. Collegiums.
4 A. Yes, in connection with his centres for security service, I don't
5 think that Djeric tried to do anything against him or to interfere and I
6 have no knowledge that anything happened in that vein as a consequence of
7 them not being on friendly terms.
8 Q. Having regard to the fact that all those normative acts were
9 prepared by the Ministry of the Interior in 1992, some of which are
10 undoubtedly key for the functioning of that ministry, it could be
11 concluded that the ministry, to a great extent, fulfilled what would be
12 expected of it at that stage of the ministry's being setting up?
13 A. Yes, I agree with your assessment. I cannot pin-point a
14 percentage, maybe 90 per cent, but the -- it was obvious that the present
15 infrastructure functioned much better than in other walks of life.
16 Q. When you say it functioned better than in other segments of the
17 society, do you mean by that some of the ministries?
18 A. Yes, of course. The setting up of the army and the setting up of
19 all organs and authorities, from municipal authorities to ministries.
20 Q. I believe that at the end of your examination-in-chief,
21 Mr. Hannis showed you this document, P400. It's an exhibit and it is a
22 transcript of the Assembly of the Serbian people, dated 23rd and
23 24th November, 1992
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we can have it on the screen,
25 please.
Page 4225
1 Q. I have a hard copy for you. I believe that it would be easier
2 for you to follow that.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like you to show me page 55 in
4 both the Serbian and the English version.
5 Q. Minister Subotic speaks and at that Assembly he took part in
6 debate, and he said that he will take responsibility for failing to set
7 up the Ministry of Defence by that point, that he'd managed to find only
8 six people for -- do you recall his intervention?
9 A. Well, I do not, but I did discuss matters with Minister Subotic
10 and I was aware that the situation in that ministry was substandard or
11 inappropriate, that only a handful of people worked there.
12 Q. So you are, in fact, aware of the situation at that ministry that
13 Mr. Subotic explained and described at this Assembly?
14 A. Yes. The army as an armed force had its command and control, and
15 set up structures, and the Ministry of Defence was lame, as it were.
16 Q. Very well. Mr. Trbojevic, while we are discussing this document,
17 a digression, you recall that you took the floor at that Assembly; do you
18 recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your speech is at page 45. You have pagination marks in the top
21 right-hand corner. I'm interested in --
22 A. I do not have page 45.
23 Q. The transcript number. Midway through the document, page 45.
24 There are two days covered by this document, day one, day two. Towards
25 the bottom of page 45, the last paragraph, you say, you address the
Page 4226
1 Assembly, you say:
2 "You've all, I believe, heard that Vitomir Zepinic became an
3 officer of military security. I will wonder, and I'm still wondering
4 why."
5 Please tell me, your learning that Mr. Vitomir Zepinic becoming
6 an officer in the military security, can you recall that and can you tell
7 us more about it?
8 A. Well, in my speech I continue, it reads, the minister of defence,
9 our minister of the interior informed us, I heard that that person was
10 arrested. And from the Ministry of Defence I heard that the
11 General Staff of our army, in there nobody knows why he was employed. I
12 have no prejudice but I -- it is intolerable that the minister of defence
13 doesn't know who is employed by his ministry.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at page 47 in
15 English. I apologise for being late with this reference, that would be
16 page 47 in English. That would be second paragraph, it states "Zapinic"
17 in English but it's supposed to be "Zepinic."
18 Q. Let's clarify a couple of things here. So you learned that
19 Mr. Zepinic was arrested, and if I understood you correctly, after being
20 arrested, he suddenly shows up in the Army of Republika Srpska as a
21 military security officer; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct. Zepinic, I believe, was assistant minister or
23 deputy minister of the interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina as
24 a Serbian cadre. When we went our separate ways, Zepinic remained in
25 Sarajevo
Page 4227
1 interrogated. We heard his answers on TV. He was suspect collaborator
2 with the Muslims.
3 After a while, he showed up in the Ministry of Defence and the
4 Ministry of Defence did not know that he had been employed within that
5 ministry. And it was absurd, in my opinion, that the minister of defence
6 didn't know and he said, Well, maybe he was working for us the whole
7 time. But the minister was supposed to know about those things so as not
8 to breed doubt and suspicion.
9 Q. Can you tell us how long he worked at the Ministry of Defence as
10 a military security officer?
11 A. Well, I don't know. He was dismissed; this was in November.
12 Q. Can you recall whether in November he still was -- it seems that
13 you speak in the present tense, that you at that time were still employed
14 there?
15 A. I don't know. He showed up later on in Australia or Canada
16 don't take my word for it.
17 Q. Thank you, sir.
18 A. He is very far away, at any rate.
19 Q. Let's revisit briefly the conflict between Mr. Djeric and
20 Mr. Stanisic. From June 1992 they were [as interpreted] in the
21 Presidency?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And from the government minutes, it is obvious that Mr. Djeric
24 briefed the government on the security situation and on certain specific
25 facts on the basis of the reports that he learned at the session of the
Page 4228
1 extended Presidency of which he was a member; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 28, line 25, there is an
4 intervention in the transcript. From June 1992, Mr. Djeric was member of
5 the extended Presidency. The transcript it just states: "... they were
6 in the Presidency." So that line in the transcript is incorrect.
7 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, do you know that Mr. Djeric sought that the
8 government be reconstructed first, as he stated, as early as May 1992,
9 then in August; and for reference that will be 65 ter document 1325.
10 Later on, in Bijeljina in September; and for reference purposes, that
11 would be 65 ter document 1506.
12 So on at least two, and probably three occasions, Mr. Djeric
13 sought that the government be reconstructed; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. I'm not sure about May, but from the very
15 beginning of my participation in that government, attitude on the
16 reconstruction of the government became manifest. He wanted to increase
17 the number of ministers and he wanted to get rid of Stanisic and somebody
18 else, and some other people. There were numerous discussions about that.
19 And he got a consensus from Mr. Koljevic and Madam Plavsic, but he could
20 not obtain one from Karadzic and Krajisnik, so there were numerous
21 discussions.
22 Then he offered for Stanisic to remain in government as a
23 minister without portfolio. There was different variant, and at the
24 Assembly in Banja Luka, although he had not received Krajisnik's and
25 Karadzic's consent, he proposed -- put forth a proposal to reconstruct
Page 4229
1 the government. It was voted upon but it did not pass. And formally and
2 legally, I thought that the whole government would fall. He did not put
3 forward amendments to the cabinet, but a new proposal for the whole
4 government, it was not voted in, and I thought that it had fallen, that
5 government. But these are legal and formal things were not observed.
6 Q. I think at one point yesterday and the day before yesterday, you
7 said that, in your view, Professor Djeric wasn't really the most suitable
8 person to be prime minister at that point in time?
9 A. Well, yes, he wasn't the most suitable person. He was not a man
10 who was used to an organised and systematic mode of work. He would have
11 had to be a very capable and crafty person. I don't want to be
12 serious -- well, I don't want to make jokes here, but he was sort of not
13 weasely enough. He was a university professor, so that he didn't really
14 have the strength and the energy to resolve issues in a controversial
15 dialogue or contradictory dialogue. It was not possible to actually
16 conclude a conversation with him. Whenever it would come to the crux of
17 the matter, he would just wave his hand and say, Well, you know, forget
18 about that.
19 So in that sense. I believe he was a very honourable man who had
20 the best of intentions, but ...
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I would suggest that we take the break now because
23 I would like to reconsider my notes and see if I have any other
24 questions, but I would need the break for that, and I think this is --
25 this would be an appropriate moment. Thank you very much.
Page 4230
1 JUDGE HALL
2 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 of you who may not be aware of it, but I understand that efforts have
7 been made to regulate the temperature, which we are all complaining about
8 how close it has become in here.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I made a promise and I'm going to
10 stick to the promise, so I don't have any further questions for this
11 witness. Thank you very much.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honours, due to the previous problems
13 with the neck and spine of my client, I was asking security officer if we
14 could just change a chair for our client and he said I should address the
15 Chamber and with your permission they can arrange that, just instead of
16 this one to have one of these spare chairs for him, if it's possible.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Of course.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Trbojevic, thank you very
21 much. I have no further questions for you.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: We don't have questions for this witness,
23 Your Honour.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. I do have some questions
25 on redirect.
Page 4231
1 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
2 Q. Mr. Trbojevic. I wanted to begin by asking you something that
3 came up very near the end of your testimony today. At page 24,
4 line 24 -- I'm sorry, line 14, you were being asked about the
5 Yellow Wasps, and in your answer you said:
6 "Yes, I do recall the existence of that group, some meetings with
7 it and when it was crushed, and those meetings were them were less than
8 savoury. Whenever I encountered them, these were not savoury occasions."
9 Do I take it you personally had some contacts or meetings with
10 Yellow Wasps, and if so, could you tell the Court about that?
11 A. I did have a few contacts with them. On my way to Serbia
12 in the car, there was a check-point that they held and I would have to go
13 through this check-point. This was in the direction of Sekovic-Karakaj
14 communication. You couldn't get through there because there were armed
15 men standing. They would stop your car and check your papers. And at
16 the time we didn't have appropriate papers. We just had documents, on
17 paper, showing that this vehicle had this VIN number and so on. We would
18 also have a government letter and a travel voucher. And then they would
19 check the papers, they would look at the car, search it, take away things
20 if they thought they should, and so on. So sometimes they would even
21 take your vehicle, or if there was a weapon, they would take that weapon
22 away. And it wasn't very pleasant.
23 And I heard that there were serious problems with them as well.
24 Among other things, Velibor Ostojic, the minister, was beaten up by one
25 of them on one such occasion. He raised his voice and asked them, Do you
Page 4232
1 know who I am, I'm a minister, and then they just beat him up. And I
2 know that there was an operation conducted by the police, a raid. They
3 were arrested and I remember that Mr. Stanisic reported on that. He said
4 that that thing had happened, had been conducted, and that's it. That's
5 what I was referring to.
6 Q. Do you recall approximately how many times you dealt with them at
7 the check-point?
8 A. About two to three times. I can't remember exactly.
9 Q. And I take it all those times were before the 29th of July, 1992
10 when they were arrested. Do you recall approximately when those two or
11 three times were; the earliest time, for example?
12 A. This would have had to have been before they were arrested. It
13 had to be before.
14 Q. Can you recall what month? May, June, July?
15 A. It must have been June. My mother was still alive then, she was
16 in Serbia
17 son was also staying with her, so I went on these family -- for family
18 reasons there.
19 Q. At the time of these stops at this check-point, I take it you did
20 not know then that these were Yellow Wasps. That's something you only
21 learned about later, that they were Yellow Wasps; is that right?
22 A. I didn't know the first time they stopped me, I didn't know what
23 they were called, but when I recounted this incident, when I told other
24 people about this, then somebody said, Yeah, there is a group, they call
25 themselves Yellow Wasps. And there was also this man, this Zuti and
Page 4233
1 Repic, or ponytail, who I know that I saw some reports in the papers
2 about him.
3 Q. At the time you were stopped at this check-point, who did you
4 understand these men to be?
5 MR. HANNIS: I see Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I didn't want to intervene until this
7 point but I didn't think this comes out of the cross-examination that I
8 did with this witness.
9 MR. HANNIS: It comes out of the witness's answer to a question
10 on cross-examination.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, that is why I didn't object until this point,
12 but I believe you are going in deep into something which was not -- what
13 was not the object of my cross-examination. That is why I object. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 that when you started out, you were clearly within the ambit of his
17 cross-examination, but your -- the details that you are now inviting the
18 witness to speak on, you are opening up new territory.
19 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour. I accept your ruling. I
20 would just like to indicate for the future, that it's my position that
21 counsel's expectation or objective in cross-examination should not
22 determine the parameters of what is allowed on redirect. It should be
23 based on the evidence presented by the witness.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 isn't it, Mr. Hannis?
Page 4234
1 MR. HANNIS: Not for me personally, Your Honour. It's my
2 understanding that if a witness says something on a cross-examination,
3 that it may not be expected or the objective of the cross-examiner, that
4 doesn't prevent the person on redirect exploring that. This is the first
5 I was aware that he'd had any dealings with the Yellow Wasp, and since he
6 stated it --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 interest of time, we wouldn't wish you to go into an area which would of
9 necessity require for the cross-examination on the new material. So if
10 you could confine yourself to strictly what has arisen out of
11 cross-examination, otherwise there'd be no end of it.
12 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour. I'll move to something
13 else.
14 Q. Witness, I want to take you to your testimony yesterday at
15 page 4156, beginning at line 20, Mr. Zecevic was asking you about the
16 Cutileiro plan. I just want to clarify: You weren't a participant in
17 the negotiations on behalf of the Serbs; right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Would it be fair to say that your knowledge and information about
20 the Cutileiro plan and any details concerning came from local media
21 accounts and/or any general discussions and comments in and around the
22 Assembly?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Thank you. At page 4164, line 20, Mr. Zecevic asked you about
25 the conditions on Mount Jahorina
Page 4235
1 no heating, no electric power, that the snow made things even worse
2 because the roads weren't passable, you didn't have any means of
3 communication, et cetera. And your answer was:
4 "That's correct. We literally did not even have typewriters, no
5 telefaxes, nothing."
6 One of my questions is: You've seen the government sessions, the
7 minutes from some 60 session, 61 sessions, all except for one perhaps
8 appear to be typewritten, so there must have been a typewriter at least
9 for the person who was typing up the minutes; correct?
10 A. Well, there were more than one, but the government did not have
11 equipment of its own. These machines, these typewriters, were collected,
12 taken from various companies, and at the end, we ended up with some of
13 those assets so we could use them in work. It snowed in November
14 already, there was a lot of snow, that's regarding the roads.
15 Q. But in May, June, July, and August, there wasn't a problem with
16 snow on Mount Jahorina
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. There was a problem with electric power, but not with the snow.
20 Q. Thank you. At page 4174, line 19, Mr. Zecevic was asking you
21 about the Crisis Staffs, and suggesting at the time the war commissions
22 were being proposed, the Crisis Staffs hadn't even functioned for a month
23 when the government concluded that measures should be taken for their
24 abolishment.
25 Are you aware that some of the Crisis Staffs, Serb Crisis Staffs,
Page 4236
1 or SDS
2 started, as early as January 1992? Did you know that?
3 A. No, I didn't.
4 Q. Were you aware of the document that's been referred to as a
5 Variant A and B document circulated by the SDS Main Board on the
6 21st of December, 1991?
7 A. I saw that document as a Defence counsel here in The Hague in the
8 Brdjanin case, when I came here for the first time.
9 Q. That's right. I forgot for a moment that you worked on that
10 case.
11 At page 4178, line 12, you were asked -- talking about the
12 Crisis Staff, these organs that were being formed in these extraordinary
13 circumstances suddenly became practically very powerful centres of power.
14 And you agreed, and said:
15 "These staffs took upon themselves the power, for example, to
16 command military units, like a local brigade, the local police." And in
17 the end you pointed out:
18 "Some places it functioned harmoniously. It varied from area to
19 area."
20 My question was: In Pale, where the government was situated,
21 where Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik were most of the time, isn't it true
22 that there was a local Crisis Staff in Pale?
23 A. First of all, I have to say that if you interpreted verbatim the
24 transcript as my words in my answer to counsel Zecevic's question, I did
25 not say that the Crisis Staff commanded either the military or the
Page 4237
1 police. My reference to that was in the context of the Crisis Staff
2 trying to have as their members people who were from their own
3 environment including people from the police station, and this is the way
4 that they actually exerted influence over the police or the military
5 elements. But I didn't know any such occasions where the Crisis Staff
6 would actually be in command of such a military unit.
7 As for Pale, yes, there was a Crisis Staff on Pale, and I had
8 occasion once or twice to see members of the Crisis Staff coming to speak
9 with Mr. Krajisnik, who was the speaker of parliament, the president of
10 the Assembly, to speak with him. And the second time, they came to meet
11 with members of the government. So that's all I know, that members of
12 the Crisis Staff came to visit members of the government and
13 Mr. Krajisnik. I had occasion to see that.
14 Q. Thank you. The first part of that answer you raised a question
15 about the interpretation of your answer yesterday. I'll read you out
16 what is in the transcript and ask you if you can confirm for me whether
17 it's accurate or not. This is well, yesterday. I'm sorry, I don't have
18 the updated page number. Yesterday it was page 65 -- I am sorry,
19 page 69, which I believe is near the bottom of page 4178:
20 "These staffs took upon themselves the power to, for example,
21 command a military unit that was like a local brigade or a local unit.
22 The local police, which was not local by its structure and its main
23 system because hierarchically it was connected to the state. But
24 practically, there were these people in the police station living in that
25 particular area and they were subject to the authority of local power
Page 4238
1 brokers. And this is now another question as to how this authority was
2 imposed."
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: What is the question?
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. My question was: Is that an accurate translation of what you
6 said yesterday?
7 A. Well, it's a bit clumsy, but as I said a little earlier, I
8 explained what I meant actually yesterday when I said that. I didn't
9 mention yesterday another thing and maybe now I can repeat it. There's
10 one of the municipal functions is to keep records and to issue call-up
11 papers to conscripts. These are functions that really fall within the
12 remit of the Ministry of Defence. However, the clerk who actually
13 processes these is on the premises of the municipality, and this is
14 referred to as municipal work, but they would -- when they would send
15 these call-up papers and ask conscripts to report to the military or the
16 police, they are not actually exercising municipal power. So this is in
17 response to when there is someone in the Crisis Staff who would actually
18 command or have some sort of command function in that respect.
19 So I'm not excluding the possibility that maybe in some
20 municipalities, the president of the Crisis Staff in co-operation or
21 agreement with a commander of a unit would agree something that would go
22 beyond these agreed frameworks and these envisaged frameworks, but
23 normally that's not how it should function.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not the local police chief of an SJB in a
25 municipality with a Crisis Staff was taking directions from the
Page 4239
1 Crisis Staff contrary to any direction he might be receiving through his
2 chain of command within the MUP? Do you know?
3 A. I don't know of any cases where a local police commander or the
4 chief of police actually operated contrary to orders that he would
5 receive from the CSB
6 As a matter of principle, he was not allowed to act in that manner.
7 Q. Thank you. With regard to the municipal Crisis Staffs, do you
8 know what their composition was in terms of membership in a political
9 party? Weren't most of the members of the Serb Crisis Staffs in April,
10 May, June 1992, members of the SDS
11 A. Well, generally speaking, probably they were, but I do know of
12 individual instances where there were people who were brigade commanders,
13 were chiefs of police, but were not members of the SDS. There were such
14 cases. I do have some information about some individuals like that.
15 But, in fact, this actually grew out of the Serb deputies who actually --
16 of whom most were, in fact, members of the SDS.
17 Q. Thank you. Next I'd like to look at Exhibit P188. This is a
18 document that Mr. Zecevic showed you yesterday, and ask you some
19 questions beginning at page 4186, line 7. I don't have a hard copy so
20 hopefully we can do it on the e-court.
21 It's a document which is apparently an instruction issued from
22 the prime minister. I think it's signed by you and sent to the MUP. Do
23 you recall seeing this one yesterday?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Hannis, if you need the hard copy we can
Page 4240
1 provide it.
2 MR. HANNIS: I think it's one page and if he needs it I'll ask.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: You are welcome.
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. My question is: The subject matter of this is requesting
7 information about facts relating to vehicles from the TAS car factory in
8 Vogosca and oil in Ilidza. Now, these two topics, cars from TAS and oil,
9 those appear to be the only two matters that were ever the subject of
10 private sessions in the government. Do you recall any other private
11 sessions where any other subject was discussed?
12 A. There were a host of details that were discussed, but as for TAS
13 vehicles, they were in the thousands so this was something that was a
14 glaring issue, you could see it before you, and -- but the number of
15 vehicles would just decrease and there were fewer and fewer of them, so
16 this was a recurrent problem that was one of the most topical issues
17 discussed.
18 Q. I'm not sure you understood my question. There were only -- as
19 far as we've seen, there were only two closed sessions or private
20 sessions of the government. In one of those, the vehicles from TAS was
21 discussed, and at another one, the issue about oil was discussed. My
22 question was: Were there any other private sessions where something was
23 discussed other than these two subjects, if you know, or if you remember?
24 A. To be honest, I don't remember even these two closed sessions,
25 private sessions. Whether there were any others with that indication
Page 4241
1 that they are private, I don't know. It's possible, but I don't know
2 any.
3 Q. Thank you. And one of the reasons that those sessions would have
4 been private, is it because there was some suspicion that high-level
5 officials were involved with those two subject matters, the missing cars
6 from TAS and oil in Ilidza?
7 A. You see, just a regular Joe, an insignificant person, cannot
8 commit this kind of theft, nor can 3.000 vehicles disappear from a
9 parking-lot without someone who was in power actually being involved, so
10 this could not have been performed or done by just petty criminals.
11 Q. I think you told us yesterday that you signed this one; is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you recall why you signed it instead of Djeric? Was he just
15 not around or was there some other reason?
16 A. Well, probably he had stepped out or gone somewhere at that point
17 in time, so he asked me to sign it. Or maybe he just wanted to have it
18 sent out and he was absent. There was no special reason for me signing
19 it.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know why it was addressed to Ceda Kljajic
21 personally, instead of going to Minister Stanisic?
22 A. I don't know that. Somebody probably must have told me to do so,
23 or maybe that's how it was written down.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. HANNIS: If we could next look at 1D94. I think it's an MFI
Page 4242
1 document at this stage.
2 Q. At page 4191, line 25, Mr. Zecevic showed you this document and
3 asked you about it. I think it's dated the 23rd of August, 1992. And it
4 was sent out by the minister of the interior. I think we were unclear as
5 to whose signature it was. But can you, from looking at the heading, can
6 you tell me what is the nature of this document? Yesterday, Mr. Zecevic
7 talked with you about various kinds of documents in administrative
8 bodies, rules of procedure, instructions, decisions, orders. Can you
9 tell, based on what you see on the screen, what kind of administrative
10 document this was?
11 A. Well, as far as I understood it, it was a letter. A
12 communication.
13 Q. Did it --
14 A. A letter requesting information and pointing out that the
15 government had concluded that it was high time to reply. This is not an
16 official document. It's not categorised as an enactment. It's just a
17 letter, a request.
18 Q. Do you know what effect a request like that would have, from the
19 minister to subordinate unit, in terms of any obligation to respond?
20 A. A reply to this could have been, Please find attached herewith a
21 criminal report against, and then a list. The perpetrators of a criminal
22 offence, when, where, what was the statement when questioned, then some
23 supporting documents. It could have been a dossier, or maybe it
24 alternatively could have been a list. We've sent this to that district
25 prosecutor and then a list, the date and what kind of documents were sent
Page 4243
1 where.
2 Q. And would there be any consequences to the CSB or individuals in
3 the CSB
4 A. Well, listen, this is an every-day activity, performance of
5 every-day duties. If you fail to reply to a request for information
6 coming from the ministry, of course that would be failing fulfill your
7 duties. So whether that would be tantamount to grounds for disciplinary
8 proceedings, well, that would be up to the immediate manager or
9 responsible person to decide pursuant to the disciplinary regulations of
10 the time.
11 Q. I'd like to next look at --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to look next at Exhibit 1D96.
14 Q. This is one that you were shown today by Mr. Zecevic. Page 5,
15 line 14. This is a document that appears to be a draft of-- that the
16 government operative programme for measures to prevent social disruptions
17 in the conditions of a state of war which was attached to a cover letter
18 from the government secretary, Mr. Lakic. And I want to specifically ask
19 you about an item that I think Mr. Zecevic didn't bring to your
20 attention. It's item 26, which is found at page 14 of the English.
21 MR. HANNIS: And in e-court I think the B/C/S is at page 11.
22 Q. Hopefully you'll be able to follow this on the screen,
23 Mr. Trbojevic. I just have one or two questions. Item 26 is translated
24 for me as: "Agreement on exchange of prisoners of war, detainees, the
25 wounded and the bodies of persons killed between the SR BiH" --
Page 4244
1 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of assistance. Thank you very much.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And I think in the hard copy it's
3 probably page 9.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, page 9.
5 Q. It's item 26.
6 A. I found it.
7 Q. Okay. And at the end of the article it said:
8 "This agreement, together with other documents that have already
9 been adopted, shall serve as a basis for the work of the state commission
10 for the exchange of POWs and detainees."
11 I infer from that that detainees are something different and
12 distinctive from prisoners of war, would you agree?
13 A. Yes, of course I would agree with you. I see that it is reliant
14 upon an agreement signed by the president of the SR BiH,and is expected
15 to be signed by our side. I know that there were discussions of the
16 International Community of the Red Cross at Geneva, that there were some
17 agreements ensuing from those discussions, and that there were agreements
18 subsequent to this regulating the issue of exchange of the bodies of
19 those killed, detained, prisoners of war, evacuations, that sort of
20 thing.
21 Q. Well, I think based on what you've said earlier in your
22 testimony, it would be fair to interpret these detainees as being not
23 fighters, not combatants, but civilians?
24 A. That will be the logic of it, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. At page 21, line 21, today, you were asked about
Page 4245
1 whether you recall the MUP submitting on a number of occasions
2 information on the current security situation. You said yes. You
3 couldn't really confirm specifically because you couldn't say which of
4 those reports you saw, but you do know that there were reports.
5 My understanding from your prior testimony in Krajisnik and your
6 testimony here that in spite of that, you and Djeric still felt that you
7 weren't being fully, adequately informed by the Ministry of the Interior
8 by the situation on the ground; is that right?
9 A. That's correct. I mean, this is being made referenced to on many
10 occasions. The gist of it was that the status of that so-called
11 government was such that it was supposed to perform the -- a utility
12 service which was supposed to make sure that things functioned in terms
13 of the economy and everything else, but on the other hand, that some
14 crucial and matters of public interest were not supposed to be on the
15 agenda of the government. Well, to what extent we, members of the
16 government, were to blame for failing to comprehend that and to what
17 extent the Presidency conducted both internal and foreign affairs and
18 limited the influence of that government, that's quite relative.
19 It was our feeling, I can tell you, that we were constantly being
20 marginalised or in a position which lacked importance to anybody. And
21 there was a lot of things -- there were a lot of things going on around
22 us and that many problems were obvious, well, that would be my feeling,
23 which was publicly expressed on many occasions. I spoke about it in
24 public. But this is how things went until the end.
25 Q. And since that time in 1992 until today, have you learned
Page 4246
1 anything, any information that would change your opinion about whether or
2 not you were being marginalised and under-informed by the Ministry of the
3 Interior?
4 A. I must admit that after several trials here I learned many things
5 and it's completely clear that that government was at the margins of
6 everything that was going on.
7 Q. Thank you. At page 25, line 20, today, you were asked about your
8 opinion or whether you would agree that the Ministry of the Interior, in
9 1992, to a great extent fulfilled what would be expected of it at that
10 stage of being set up. You said yes, you agreed, and maybe 90 per cent,
11 and that it functioned better than basically all the other ministries.
12 That would suggest to me that the MUP had good communications,
13 because wouldn't that be an essential requirement to start up an organ
14 like the Ministry of the Interior?
15 A. I explained that on two occasions partly. The infrastructure and
16 the connectedness between police station, Security Services Centres, with
17 the republican headquarters within the ministry of the police was,
18 according to my impression, as far as I could divine, it worked and
19 functioned better or more intensively than in other segments of social
20 life. Therefore, the police were set up, minister appointed people to
21 positions, analysed at collegium meetings what was working, what was not.
22 There were dismissals, and simply, the impression was that that organ was
23 functioning much better at a higher level than everybody else of us.
24 So what they were short of, well, that's something that I cannot
25 assess or enumerate from my position, but it is -- certainly there were
Page 4247
1 some problems. That is what I meant.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic, I don't have any further
3 questions for the witness. I do have one procedural matter. That was a
4 exhibit previously marked P165 and it was marked for identification but
5 it's part of this witness's 65 ter, so I'd ask that its status change.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. HANNIS: Pardon me, Your Honour.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 exhibit.
12 MR. HANNIS: I said 65 ter, I meant 92 ter.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Counsel, please.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Trbojevic, there is a matter that I would
16 like to clarify with you in relation to the knowledge that people in your
17 government had about detention of civilians because you told us yesterday
18 that, in fact, you had no knowledge about detention of civilians, at
19 least over the summer of 1992, and if I recall correctly, you told us
20 that it wasn't until the early fall of 1992 that you were first told
21 about detention facilities and collection points and other kinds of
22 detention of civilians; but when you heard of it, you were told that it
23 was all for the good of the detainees, because it was to protect them
24 against extremists. Have I understood you correctly on this?
25 A. This is how I put it. This is how it was, to the best of my
Page 4248
1 knowledge.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. Now, by the time you were appointed as
3 deputy prime minister, that was in May 1992, if I recall correctly, did
4 you understand there to be a state of armed conflicts in Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina
6 A. I experienced in Sarajevo
7 city, that one could be apprehended out in the street. I was arrested.
8 I experienced a state of war, a war situation to the full, except that
9 that I wasn't hit by any missile. So I knew that it was a war situation.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: We are lucky that you were not hit. But who was
11 perceived to be the enemy? Or let me put my question in another way. If
12 there was an armed conflict as you understood it to be, then who were the
13 parties fighting against each other? As far as you could tell, could
14 determine at the time.
15 A. You see, that war situation gradually spread like fire. Here I
16 am sitting in Sarajevo
17 of the republic, there were agreements being made about mixed patrols.
18 Then I see on TV those trams burning in front of the Skenderija hall,
19 where soldiers who were -- JNA soldiers who were leaving Sarajevo got
20 killed. Then step by step you are drawn into a situation, you keep
21 thinking that the very next agreement will resolve the situation, and
22 while you wait for the next agreement, you find yourself that you cannot
23 bear to stay there, that the situation is real and present.
24 Then you hear about Serbian authorities going to Pale to find
25 shelter there. Then you yourself go to Pale and you find out that there
Page 4249
1 is war reigning at many places in the country. Who were the parties to
2 the conflict? Well, the Serbs who wanted to remain in the same community
3 with Serbia
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be separated. As far as the Croats and when they
5 became a party to the conflict against either of the other two sides,
6 well, I cannot gauge that. For a time they co-operated with the Serb
7 side, then sometimes they fought the Muslims and then co-operated with
8 the Muslims to fight the Serbs. That was a complicated matter.
9 And as a civilian, you do not have any kind of inkling what is
10 going on at the front line. You do not know anything about the military
11 situation and then the military personnel would brief you on that
12 military situation as per requirements.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: But am I right in understanding your testimony to
14 be that it was generally perceived that the armed conflict was going on
15 between the Serbs who wanted to preserve the former Yugoslavia, and the
16 Muslims who wanted to have the Bosnia and Herzegovina become an
17 independent and thus separate from Yugoslavia? This was what the war was
18 all about and the enemies were the Serbs against the Muslims and perhaps
19 the Croats? Is that how you saw it at the time?
20 A. That's correct.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Now, I understand that you are unable to tell us
22 exactly when you first heard about detention of civilians; but what I
23 don't understand is that when you heard of detention of a great number of
24 civilians who were predominantly Muslim and Croats, and at the same time
25 you knew that there was an armed conflict between Serbs and Muslims, and
Page 4250
1 let's include the Croats for the sake of completion, then I would find it
2 hard to believe that detention of civilians belonging to the enemy would
3 be made for reasons their own protection against their own kin.
4 And, therefore, my question to you is really this: Did you have
5 an impression that in your government people were turning the blind eye
6 to this information that in those detention facilities where Muslims were
7 held, mistreatment could possibly have taken place?
8 I'm not, Mr. Trbojevic, I'm not in any way implying that you did
9 so, but my question is: Did it ever occur to you that there might be
10 someone in the government who had an interest in not bringing to light
11 what was going on in the camps?
12 A. You see, today when I think about that it seems to me impossible
13 for that not to be known. When I go back in my mind to that time in
14 1992, I know that as a normal person, it was inconceivable for me to --
15 for somebody to open a camp for civilians because they were of different
16 ethnic background. And it was so among many people because the Serbs, in
17 their history, they've experienced such camps as victims during
18 World War II. Maybe under the influence of that, yes, but as a normal
19 person I could not even think that somebody would deprive somebody of
20 their liberty and put them into a camp just because they come from
21 different ethnic background.
22 This is the situation -- information that I got in Banja Luka
23 that Trnopolje was a collection centre, that the civilians [Realtime
24 transcript read in error "Serbians"] may be put there to be protected
25 from extremists on both sides, to spend some time there protected before
Page 4251
1 they can return home, and to be protected from the Muslim side, well, it
2 seemed logical. There was some logic to it for a time. But when on TV
3 you first saw the footage from Trnopolje and from Manjaca, where you see
4 a huge number of people kept there, then it became clear that we didn't
5 know what was going on there.
6 On the other hand, we know that the ICRC conducted talks at the
7 republican or state level or the leadership level, trying to get an
8 agreement for the ICRC to gain access to those camps, to list those
9 persons, to check the living conditions there. So it was inconceivable.
10 We had no idea that such things happened as I learned subsequently from
11 many witnesses. I don't know, I can't [Realtime transcript read in error
12 "can"] say that there was a person who tried to hide everything from
13 public view.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: And were --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I am sorry, Your Honour. Maybe I'll be of
16 assistance. I believe the witness says I can't say that there was a
17 person who tried to hide everything from public view. 51, 20, it says
18 "the Serbians," which is clearly not. I think he said "the civilians."
19 Page 51, line 20, it say that is the Serbians may be put there to.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, thank you. Mr. Pantelic.
21 MR. PANTELIC: And also page 51, line 23, it is Muslim side or
22 some other side? I don't know, it's not make sense to me. Maybe our
23 friend can clarify this.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Trbojevic, I don't know if you read English,
25 but can you see on the screen at page 51, line 23? And are you able to
Page 4252
1 understand what it says?
2 A. I cannot see page 51.
3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Usher, would you please assist the witness.
4 A. I cannot translate it back literally. I see that an agreement is
5 being made reference to.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.
7 A. The interpreter can translate for me that line in the transcript.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: If the interpreters would be good enough to do
9 so. Thank you very much.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot see LiveNote.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: I think, Mr. Trbojevic, let's cut through this, I
12 think the issue was whether or not you were being told that detained
13 Muslim civilians were there for the protection against their own
14 extremists, people from their own side; is that correct? Is that what
15 you had heard?
16 A. That is how I put it. Extremists both from their own side and
17 from the Serb side.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right. Well, that adds an extra dimension.
19 Moving on to my last question, you were shown today, during
20 cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic, a couple of documents that suggested
21 that Mr. Stanisic had issued orders to the CSBs and the SJBs to report on
22 all events taking place within their area of jurisdiction. And in
23 particular to collect information and documentation about war crimes.
24 And my question to you is: Do you know if those reports actually
25 came? Were such reports provided on a daily basis or at least on a
Page 4253
1 regular basis to the Ministry of Interior from the CSBs and the SJBs?
2 A. I don't know how public security stations and centres
3 correspond -- what was the correspondence with the ministries or the
4 number of such reports, the level of their processing, at which intervals
5 and by which dead-lines they were received. What I can tell you is that
6 at the government level, we did not receive such reports. The government
7 had no insight in such reports.
8 I know that there was some co-operation with the war crimes
9 institute based in Belgrade
10 documentation, and from the information that I received from a judge who
11 conducted those investigations, that documentation was forwarded to the
12 United Nations. To whom and in what form, I don't know.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did Mr. Stanisic, when he was a minister of the
14 interior, did he bring up that issue during any of the government
15 meetings?
16 A. I cannot specifically recall him saying something at a particular
17 government session or meeting.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the government was never informed by the
19 minister of interior about the documentation of possible war crimes and
20 the way in which such possible documentation was handled?
21 A. I think that my answer must be in the affirmative, meaning that I
22 did not see such a report.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: And you don't recall Mr. Stanisic bringing it up
24 during any meeting?
25 A. No, I don't recall.
Page 4254
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much, Mr. Trbojevic.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Tribunal. Your testimony is at an end and you are now released, and we
4 wish you a safe journey back to your home.
5 Usher, you may escort Mr. Trbojevic from the court.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, our next witness is one for whom there
10 are protective measures, voice and image distortion, so I think we need
11 to take a break. Closed session, my mistake.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it does look rather odd because I saw
13 the same thing, but it's closed session that Your Honours have granted so
14 I don't think there's any need for face, voice, or anything of that
15 nature.
16 Your Honours, I imagine it's probably simpler to take the break,
17 but I need, in any event, to make an application in relation to this
18 witness, because Your Honours may have seen that when we put the original
19 92 ter package together, which I only realised when I was going through
20 it for the purposes of calling the witness, we made what can only be
21 described as a shambles of the documents, I am afraid. What has been put
22 in is the witness's testimony in a previous case with the associated
23 documents which are relevant and indeed many of which have already been
24 produced as exhibits. But I hope Your Honours were given the revised,
25 properly worked-out list that was sent by Mr. Smith -- sorry
Page 4255
1 Ms. Bosnjakovic, who was standing in for Mr. Smith the day before
2 yesterday. But I need to make an application obviously that it's the
3 revised properly organised list that is the package. So if there's no
4 objection, can I ask --
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MS. KORNER: Yes.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this is what I
8 received in the binder, I have no objection to that. If that is indeed
9 that revised list.
10 MS. KORNER: That doesn't help, I'm afraid. We sent, at the same
11 time we sent to the Court, the revised, properly organised list. I don't
12 know what Mr. Cvetic has got in his binder but if it's based on the list
13 that was sent two days ago, that's it.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I assume that our
15 Case Manager revised the documents pursuant to your list, because
16 yesterday night, I received revised documentation, and this is how I
17 conclude that what I have in the binder is what you are referring to.
18 But since our Case Manager is following this, I probably will receive
19 information confirming what you are saying.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I know that Mr. Cvijetic's Case
21 Manager is aware of it because she sent a couple of e-mails querying
22 documents.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, and -- sorry.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: On this matter?
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yeah, on this matter.
Page 4256
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Go ahead.
2 MR. PANTELIC: I was informed -- first of all, I do apologise, I
3 didn't introduce our Case Manager, Mr. Jason Antley, when he came after
4 first break, just for the record. Actually, we locate one, two, three --
5 three documents which is not in e-court of this practically last version,
6 so just for clarification, that's our information.
7 MS. KORNER: I can assure Mr. Pantelic everything has been
8 uploaded into e-court. We had a couple of queries from Ms. Savic, who is
9 Mr. Zecevic's Case Manager, and we've uploaded, we've made sure that
10 everything is in e-court. And we indicated where there'd an error on
11 the --
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, I had a quick glance to the calendar
13 for next week you sent yesterday, I think, and I noticed that you
14 announce two hours for Witness ST-158, Hanson, you announce two hours in
15 chief and six hours cross, and I have in my -- my information is that you
16 asked for one hour 30 minutes and that you cut down Defence time by two
17 hours there. And then for Nielson, you asked for six hours and in your
18 calendar it's seven now.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, I know -- I don't know about Ms. Hanson, I have
20 a feeling, and we maybe should notify, that the lawyer who is calling
21 her, Mr. Dobbin, after talking to her decided that two hours would be the
22 safer bet, but hopes to complete it in one hour and a half. Mr. Hannis
23 is calling Dr. Nielson, and I think it's because of issues that have come
24 up through the case already. Again out of safety's sake, he has put down
25 seven. Again, I know he hopes not to take that long.
Page 4257
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: And is it because of these additions that you cut
2 down the time from for the Defence?
3 MS. KORNER: We didn't know we cut down to the time for the
4 Defence.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Two hours.
6 MS. KORNER: We thought we'd -- we thought we'd looked -- two
7 hours for?
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: For Hanson. I have for the Defence six hours for
9 Defence 1, for Mr. Zecevic, and two hours for Mr. Pantelic. Is that
10 right? That adds up to eight and not to six.
11 MS. KORNER: I am sorry, I really can't give an explanation for
12 that. Maybe it was optimism rather than accuracy. But I'm sorry about
13 that, but we'll revise those estimates accordingly.
14 We understand -- I intend to be an hour with today's witness in
15 chief and we understand that cross-examination is likely to be two and
16 two and a half, so something -- so he will go into Monday.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 MS. KORNER: Would Your Honours grant leave to amend our 92 ter
19 filing on this?
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.07 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before we go into closed session, I've
25 checked with our time in motion expert, if I can put it that way, and she
Page 4258
1 says that the timings that she gave were accurate from the information
2 they were given by the Defence. As far as Hanson was concerned, she
3 didn't think we had been given any time by the Zupljanin Defence for
4 cross-examination. So that that is -- but the rest she said is accurate.
5 Your Honours, may we go into closed session.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: But then also, Ms. Korner, any news for Nielson?
7 Because we were wondering why seven hours for an expert witness who comes
8 basically to be crossed.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honours, it's more than that. It's a
10 very, very dense report, as you may have seen. I know that Mr. Hannis
11 gave that estimate as his, as it were, fallback position, so that he can
12 draw Your Honours' attention to parts of the report and issues that have
13 come up during the course of the trial. I don't think it's going to be
14 very helpful to Your Honours if Mr. Hannis simply puts Dr. Nielson into
15 the witness box and then says, And did you produce this report, and sits
16 down. I think more than that has to be done. Unless Your Honours are so
17 familiar with every single word and footnote in the report that you don't
18 need - can I put it this way? - any assistance.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're trying to spare us, Ms. Korner.
20 MS. KORNER: I wouldn't do that, never. Not on a Friday. That's
21 the situation, Your Honours.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could Mr. Hannis give us an alternative,
24 something more reasonable at first sight?
25 MS. KORNER: We'll make -- I'm sure he is got his eye on his
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1 television because his television works, but mine doesn't, and we'll --
2 Mr. Smith will get some information during the course of the next hour
3 from him.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 MR. PANTELIC: If it's not too late, our estimation is two hours
6 for Hanson. Thank you. But we [indiscernible] later anyhow for the
7 record, two hours for Zupljanin.
8 MS. KORNER: So Your Honours, if we can go into closed session.
9 [Closed session]
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11 Pages 4260-4283 redacted. Closed session.
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8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of
10 December, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.
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