1 Wednesday, 20 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
6 IT-08-91-T. The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 May I have the appearances, please.
9 MR. OLMSTED: Good morning, Your Honours. Matthew Olmsted and
10 Tom Hannis for the Prosecution assisted by Crispian Smith.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic and
12 Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank
14 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
15 Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and our Case Manager, Jason
16 Antley. Sorry because I have some problems with computer. It's okay
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE HALL
20 would remind you that you are still on your oath. Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: MUHAREM KRZIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness. To save time, I already
1 gave you your statement and the attachment you had before you yesterday.
2 At several points during your evidence yesterday, you mentioned Crisis
3 Staff; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The Crisis Staff for Banja Luka municipality was founded in 1991,
6 wasn't it?
7 A. It was the staff, or rather, the national Defence council, if
8 that's what you mean, which grew into the Crisis Staff.
9 Q. This body, the National Defence Council, as you call it, included
10 representatives of the SDA party, the HDZ, the SDP, reformists, and the
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And your representative on that body was Mr. Emir Dzanic, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That National Defence Council was established at that time in
16 keeping with the current law on the basics of All People's Defence and
17 social protection; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you please make a pause for the interpreter's between
20 question and answer.
21 That Council for National Defence, as you call it, which was
22 identical in all its features to the Crisis Staffs that appeared later,
23 continued to work in that composition all the way until the end of 1991
24 or the beginning of 1992.
25 A. Yes, but I can't accept that it had the same jurisdiction as a
1 Crisis Staff.
2 Q. A moment ago you said that this National Defence Council had
3 grown at one point into a Crisis Staff?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You withdrew from the National Defence Council, when I say you, I
6 mean the SDA party, towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then the SDA party founded its own Crisis Staff in March
11 A. It had exclusively humanitarian --
12 Q. Please answer my question. Did the SDA party form its own Crisis
13 Staff in March 1992, yes or no?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that staff was headed by Casim -- sorry, Asim Jakirlic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At the same time the SDA party stopped working on the Assembly of
18 the municipality of Banja Luka; right?
19 A. Even before March.
20 Q. But this termination was not complete, one Emir Busatlic, a
21 member of your SDA party and MP continued to sit on the Banja Luka
22 municipal Assembly; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Also Mr. Gumic and Mr. Kuzmic SDA members, remained on the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this Mr. Gumic, although Bosniak by ethnicity, was Chef de
3 Cabinet or secretary of the municipal secretary Radic?
4 A. No.
5 Q. What was his position in the municipality?
6 A. I believe vice-president of the municipal Assembly.
7 Q. So he was the first assistant to the municipal president?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he continued in his post from March onwards in 1992 although
10 the Party of Democratic Action walked out of the Municipal Assembly of
11 Banja Luka?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You gave them orders as to all your membership, I suppose, to
14 stop working on the municipal Assembly of Banja Luka, but they did not
16 A. It wasn't me who gave them orders. It was the Executive Board.
17 I signed them, but it was the Executive Board who issued the
18 instructions, not me personally.
19 Q. When you say "Executive Board," you mean the Executive Board of
20 the party in Sarajevo
21 A. No, in Banja Luka.
22 Q. In Banja Luka then. But you as president of the SDA party and
23 president of the Executive Board signed this?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. With this Mr. Gumic who was vice-president of the Assembly of
1 Banja Luka, you met several times in the course of 1992 at some official
2 inter-party meetings or municipal meetings or meetings with Mr. Radic?
3 A. I believe that there were no such meetings between us within the
4 party, and I can't recall that at the meetings we had with Mr. Radic he
5 attended. I'm talking about three meetings. I can give you the dates,
6 if you wish.
7 Q. Please.
8 A. Your Honours, may I look at my papers where I have these dates?
9 JUDGE HALL
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had one meeting with Mr. Radic
11 on the 24th of June, the 8th of December, 1992, and the 1st of March,
12 1993 during my tenure in Banja Luka. I believe that Mr. Gumic may have
13 attended the first meeting, but I'm sure he did not attend the other two.
14 However, in my reports you can find precise information because I wrote
15 these reports on the very same day and included the names of those
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. Until what time, to the best of your knowledge, did
19 Mr. Gumic continue as vice-president of the municipality of Banja Luka
20 A. Until the moment when he decided to leave Banja Luka himself, but
21 I really did not pay attention to that any more. I simply wasn't able
23 Q. Tell me, he was a member of the SDA, obviously he was one of the
24 more prominent members since he was appointed vice-president of the
25 municipality of Banja Luka on behalf of the SDA party, and that's the
1 second highest position in the municipal hierarchy. He continued as an
2 SDA member, didn't he?
3 A. If I may answer your first question first, he was nominated to
4 that position while there was a sort of vacuum between the election of
5 the SDA party president, to which post I was ultimately appointed
6 officially by secret ballot, and the moment when the president left us.
7 In the meanwhile, we had a temporary body leading the party and
8 unfortunately it was precisely in this vacuum period that some key events
9 happened, and in this vacuum, Mr. Gumic somehow jumped in. I can't
10 understand to this day how because we had many good, educated people.
11 Second, we did not want to expel him from the SDA except in the
12 case of Mr. Busatlic. We gathered signatures and had him excluded from
13 the municipality of Banja Luka.
14 Q. Please, our time is limited. I would really appreciate it if you
15 would focus on the question. If I may sum up, and please answer with a
16 yes or no, Mr. Gumic, regardless of the circumstances of his election,
17 was elected vice-president of the Banja Luka municipality as a cadre and
18 representative of the SDA party?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Despite the decision of the SDA party not to participate in the
21 work of the Assembly and contrary to that decision, Mr. Gumic continued
22 as vice-president of the Banja Luka municipality throughout 1992 and
23 later and still remained a member of the SDA party?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You will agree with me that one can then legitimately claim that
1 the SDA party participated in the authorities of Banja Luka?
2 A. I could not agree with that because I already told you which
3 decision we had made and it was in force.
4 Q. Tell me, sir, you have been a member of the SDA party since it
5 was founded?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was there a regional board of the party for the Bosnian Krajina?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you know people from the SDA party at the regional level?
10 A. I knew most of them, I think.
11 Q. Were you a member of the regional board?
12 A. Ex officio I was.
13 Q. Did you know the vice-president of the SDA for Kotor Varos,
14 Mr. Cerkic?
15 A. Only very slightly.
16 Q. He was also a member of the regional board, wasn't he?
17 A. I believe he was.
18 Q. Thank you. Witness, when in the coalition of national parties
19 the SDA, the SDS
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't it true that you made an inter-party agreement
21 on the division of positions?
22 A. Yes, but proportionately to our electoral results.
23 Q. I did not ask you about the provisions of that inter-party
24 agreement. I only want to know if there was one. If there was an
25 agreement on the division of posts?
1 A. I have never seen that agreement, but one can say it existed. In
2 fact, to be even clearer, we referred to an inter-party agreement.
3 Q. Isn't it the case, Witness, that all three national parties in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina together stated as their main goal to replace
5 communists or members of the league of communists from all leading
6 positions in all layers of society?
7 A. In the statute of our party, I never have seen such a statement.
8 It's another matter that there were misgivings they might win elections,
9 and I can say that at the beginning, none of the parties were preoccupied
10 with such issues. We had many more serious matters to deal with.
11 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that communists, or the League of Communists,
12 or the communist regime persecuted members of national parties?
13 A. They persecuted certain nationalists because at that time there
14 were no national parties, or perhaps you mean the newly-elected national
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Well, some of them may have been targeting in that context.
18 Q. Well, isn't it logical then, that the moment you got into power
19 by virtue of elections, it was the basic objective of all parties to
20 bring their own people into leading positions and replace the communists?
21 A. As you know, I am not among these nationalists who were
22 persecuted and convicted sometimes, and in the party that I led, it was
23 not an objective, a goal. But, of course, we wanted everything done
24 according to the outcome of the elections.
25 Q. Isn't it true, however, that it was the purpose of this
1 inter-party agreement on the division of posts, to replace the previous
2 authorities and to place members of your respective parties to all the
3 leading positions in society in keeping with the inter-party agreement?
4 A. As far as the SDA party is concerned, we nominated our candidates
5 for leading positions from the ranks of people who did belong to
6 political parties, but they also had quite separately certain superlative
7 qualifications and I can give you names.
8 Q. I'm not interested in the local level, I'm interested in the
9 level of the republic. Give me one name of a senior official from the
10 SDA party who had been a communist and remained in his position at the
11 level of the republic. Was there such a person in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. Well, take, for instance, Fikret Abdic. I don't know if
13 Mr. Gumic was part of the previous regime, these were only Bosniaks but
14 look at Croats, Mr. Pejanovic was previously a communist and so on and so
15 forth. If you look at the ambassadors, and that's also a very high
16 position, a great percentage of them used to be communists.
17 Q. I'm talking about the executive arm?
18 A. In that respect as well, many people on the Supreme Court.
19 Q. You talked yesterday about non-Serbs being laid off, and you
20 emphasised physicians; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. P462 was shown to you yesterday.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call it up again, please.
24 I'm interested in Article 1.
25 Q. You remember giving your comments on this document from June
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Yesterday you commented on Article 1, paragraphs 1 and 2, and you
4 said that the document referred to non-Serbs, do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. However, paragraph 3 of this same Article 1 applies to employees
7 of Serbian ethnicity, do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Article 3 says that these positions enumerated earlier may not be
10 filled by non-Serbs but may not be filled by Serbs either who had not
11 proven their ideological profile and suitability, do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This is basically about banning opponents from certain political
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Isn't it the same principle that was applied according to your
17 inter-party agreement from 1990 against former communists who had not
18 given up their former ideology?
19 A. No, it's not the same because there is not a single document or
20 verbal evidence that the SDA party acted in this way.
21 Q. Sir, just a moment, just a moment. I'm asking you in general
22 terms. I'm not asking about the SDA party nor am I trying to criticise
23 the SDA. Nothing could be further from my mind. I'm talking about all
24 nationalist party or national parties, the SDA, the SDS, the HDZ, and
25 your own inter-party agreement. It stipulated, if you will agree with
1 me, that certain standards be applied to the members of the former
2 authorities, namely that they should be replaced?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Wait a moment. If members of the former authorities remained in
5 that position, then how were you able to place your people in the same
6 positions? Were there two presidents of the municipality?
7 A. No, I'm trying to say that as far as the SDA and the HDZ are
8 concerned, to the best of my knowledge, new leading staff, new leading
9 structures were being formed out of people who had certain qualifications
10 and who expressed their loyalty to the SDA. They did not have to be
11 members. And we appointed such people to the municipality of Banja Luka
12 I can give you names. Mr. Kosulcic [phoen] was a member of the League of
13 Communists, and he was appointed to a municipal position.
14 Q. Isn't it true that the SDA was not very popular with
15 intellectuals of the Islamic faith or Muslim Bosniaks?
16 A. Judging by who was in the leading positions in our party and our
17 council, I don't think that conclusion is justified. Intellectuals,
18 generally speaking, did not join the newly established political parties
19 in great numbers which is understandable, but I can give you the names of
20 a dozen professors, I believe that's enough.
21 Q. But for a nation-wide party, it's hardly enough, but I don't want
22 to go into that now. I'll ask you another question, sir. Isn't it true
23 that the SDP
24 predominantly Muslim or Bosniak party?
25 A. Do you mean the SDP
1 Q. Yes, the very one.
2 A. I don't have relevant information. They have that information in
3 the SDP
5 Q. When we spoke about that a minute ago, namely that one of your
6 members was on the Municipal Board of Banja Luka, didn't the members of
7 the SDP
8 Assembly of Banja Luka and took part in its activities?
9 A. I'm sorry, can you reformulate that question a bit.
10 Q. Well, okay. Although I'm trying to keep things short.
11 Is it true that the Social Democratic Party in the Banja Luka
12 municipality in the municipal Assembly which was predominantly Muslim
13 took part in the activities of the municipal Assembly during 1992, yes or
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to this document. Yesterday you
17 commented and read an interview with Mr. Brdjanin about a certain
18 Slobodan Cvijetic who was replaced from the position of manager, or
19 director, even though he was a Serb, do you remember?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You said yesterday that he was replaced because that -- because
22 persons from mixed marriages were also replaced; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Cvijetic's mother and father are of Serb
25 ethnicity, that he is not the offspring of a mixed marriage?
1 A. But his wife is a Croatian woman.
2 Q. Yes, but his wife being a Croatian woman doesn't mean that he
3 comes from a mixed marriage?
4 A. No, well that may have been -- I may have misspoken. I want to
5 say that there was a mixed marriage.
6 Q. Sir, my question was the following: You don't want to say that
7 the reason for his replacement was the fact that his wife was a Croatian
9 A. It was one of the reasons. It can be seen in the interview.
10 Q. Witness, isn't it true that this gentleman, although if I may say
11 that a thoroughbred Serb was replaced for ideological reasons and not
12 because his wife was a Croatian woman or for any other reason?
13 A. I think that Mr. Brdjanin provides the answer to that question in
14 that interview. I believe that answer should be recognised.
15 Q. Sir, we are not examining Mr. Brdjanin here, we are examining
16 you. You gave us your comments to Mr. Brdjanin's interview yesterday, we
17 have that document. Here is what I put to you now. That Mr. Slobodan
18 Cvijetic the director of a successful company in Banja Luka although he
19 was a Serb was replaced for purely ideological reasons, he was an
20 ideological opponent and not for on ethnic grounds. Do you agree with
21 me, yes or no?
22 A. I can agree only partly, because if his wife had been a Serbian
23 woman that would never have happened because he was a recognised expert.
24 Q. Are you saying that if he had divorced his wife he would have
25 remained in a managerial position?
1 A. No, I didn't say that, or I couldn't claim that.
2 Q. Yes, but you have just said if his wife were a Serbian woman,
3 obviously you are focusing on the fact that his wife is a Croatian woman?
4 A. Well, I heard from his family that this was so.
5 Q. Yeah, but people will talk, won't they?
6 When you spoke to my learned friend yesterday, you were shown a
7 newspaper article about a group of doctors, specialists from Banja Luka
8 losing their jobs, they were Muslims, Bosniaks, and in September 1992
9 they were laid off. Do you remember?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. If I read your statement correctly, which we have in front of us,
12 you went into details explaining that but do say, if you don't remember
13 everything, you mentioned four or five names of esteemed doctors,
14 specialists who were Muslims or Bosniaks who in December 1992 were laid
15 off because they didn't respond to the summons to go to a military
16 hospital near the front line?
17 A. Yes, that applies to some of them.
18 Q. On page 13 of your statement, you mention that the mobilisation
19 or the obligation to serve in the military applied to all three ethnic
20 groups, Muslims, Croats and Serbs equally, and that those who acted in
21 accordance with that order were sent wherever necessary and those who
22 didn't were -- to those who didn't sanctions were applied?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you remember that the laws and regulations existing in
1 as a highest duty of any individual?
2 A. I must correct you. This was within the remit of the highest
3 bodies of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which never issued such a
4 call for mobilisation. It was local authorities that did.
5 Q. Sir, we are speaking about December 1992?
6 A. Yes, but Bosnia and Herzegovina existed as a country then, and we
7 were obliged to obey the institutions of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina
8 and not the institutions of individual municipalities where there had
9 been a user patient of power or the authorities of some regions.
10 Q. Sir, are you saying that you don't know that the Republika Srpska
11 had been created in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 A. You know that Bosnia-Herzegovina was internationally recognised.
13 Q. Sir, we are speaking about facts. It is not for us to interpret
14 them. That's for the Chamber to do later. We are speaking about the
15 facts now. I'm asking you now, since this is about December 1992, you
16 know that the Republika Srpska was in existence, I believe at one moment
17 it was called the Republika Srpska Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that there was
18 a mobilisation order in the Republika Srpska and you lived in the
19 territory of the then Republika Srpska and of present day Republika
20 Srpska; isn't that so?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that the mobilisation order which was in force in the
23 territory of Republika Srpska applied to all citizens of Republika Srpska
24 irrespective of their ethnicity at the time; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You certainly know that there have been numerous instances when
2 members of the Serbian ethnic group were laid off and they were taken to
3 court for refusing to respond to the mobilisation call?
4 A. I personally do not have such information, but I have heard of
5 such cases.
6 Q. Let us comment what you said yesterday. What you -- or rather,
7 let's go to page 53, line 6 and 7. There you commented -- no, you can't
8 find it in your statement, I'm referring to the evidence you gave
9 yesterday. The reference was to the transcript. It's page 53 of
10 yesterday's transcript of your testimony, line 6 and 7. When you
11 commented your meeting with Mr. Radic on the 15th of April 1992, do you
12 remember that meeting?
13 A. Which date did you say?
14 Q. April 15th, 1992
15 that meeting.
16 A. Oh, yes, that's the one I don't have listed here. What was your
17 question again? I apologise again.
18 Q. Do you remember that you gave evidence to the effect that the
19 article from "Glas" was shown to you which dealt with your meeting with
20 Mr. Radic?
21 A. Yes, I'm sorry, I got a bit confused.
22 Q. So I would like to ask you once more to pause briefly between my
23 question and your answer for the sake of the interpreters.
24 When you spoke about that yesterday you said that you expressed
25 your concern and then my learned friend asked you whether you went there
1 again, and you replied, Whoever complained risked losing their life, do
2 you remember saying that?
3 A. I believe that was the Prosecutor's question about complaints to
4 the members of the CSB
5 whoever complained to other institutions too also ran that same risk, so
6 that my answer is affirmative.
7 Q. Well, sir, you said to us a short while ago you went to see
8 Mr. Radic three more times, 24th of June, the 8th of December, and the
9 1st of March 1993, and you also had two meetings with General Talic and
10 other military leaders about these same issues. That's not a contentious
11 issue. And we can see that nothing happened to you; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct, but we were speaking about individual
13 complaints, so if somebody attacks you in your house and if you complain
14 individually, you risked something bad happening to you. We were the
15 representatives of associations of non-Serbs and in that capacity we were
16 able to have meetings. But individual complaints were practically
18 Q. I know, sir, but you too are an individual, an individual with
19 property, so that you would have been in the same position as other
21 A. Well, yes, I was in the same position. I believe that you have
22 the information that I went through awful torture, that I lost my
23 property, that those who accompanied me were also imprisoned and so on,
24 so half the people who went to those meetings with me were imprisoned. I
25 think give you their names if you want. Or they were expelled.
1 Q. Sir, a military court in Banja Luka convicted you and those
2 others to long-term prison sentences for espionage. I am not referring
3 to what happened when that group was arrested in 1994, I'm speaking about
4 the period relevant for this case and that is 1992. About this other
5 aspect you will probably speak with my colleague. I'm interested in
6 1992. As far as I was able to conclude from your statements in 1992, you
7 personally didn't have any major problems, or did you?
8 A. If we disregard the fact that my house was being shot at, then
9 you're right.
10 Q. Well, sir, it was war, but so there was shooting in Banja Luka
11 elsewhere, not only at your house?
12 A. Yes, there was shooting, but it's different when someone comes to
13 your house and shoots at you, points a gun at your head.
14 Q. You spoke about Kotor Varos yesterday and what was happening
15 there on pages -- on page 58 of yesterday's transcript line 20 up to page
16 59 line 3. You mentioned people being slaughtered, whipped, tied to
17 trees, et cetera. Were you in Kotor Varos when those things allegedly
19 A. No, not at that time, but I spoke to some people while
20 Mr. Zdravko Pejic was with me. And in spite of the terrible situation
21 they confirmed that. I later spoke to witnesses from Vecici and to the
22 parents of the victims, and they all confirmed that beyond any doubt. I
23 also spoke to the HDZ president, what was his name again? Maric. And he
24 also confirmed that.
25 Q. So let me conclude, you didn't have any direct knowledge but you
1 got information through intermediaries, by word of mouth?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Witness, in your statements and in your evidence you
4 insist that the SDA of Banja Luka, that is the party which you led,
5 didn't have any weapons in 1992 and that in February you did ask the SDA
6 to supply weapons, but they never arrived; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also said that in Zagreb
9 delivering weapons in the territory of Banja Luka and that you asked that
10 person for weapons too; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then you were at a meeting at which there was a discussion
13 about weapons that you were to receive from the HVOV Jajce which already
14 had delivered some weapons but you never received any weapons; is that
16 A. Yes, but I believe that Travnik was also mentioned.
17 Q. When you say "Travnik," you mean the HVO of Travnik?
18 A. Yes, more or less.
19 Q. You did confirm that you brought automatic rifles from Sarajevo
20 for you and another member of the SDA; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that -- one of these automatic rifles you kept to yourself;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I'm sure that you knew that unauthorised possession of weapons
1 was a crime, especially automatic weapons?
2 A. Well, yes.
3 Q. And that is why you discarded that weapon in the Vrbas River
4 you heard that the police would come to search your house?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Witness, isn't it true that the actions of collecting illegal
7 weapons who were implemented from 1990 in line with the decision of the
8 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina headed by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and on
9 the basis of the order of the minister of the interior Mr. Delimustafic,
10 they are all Muslim Bosniaks?
11 A. I cannot say because I don't have the necessary information.
12 Q. Isn't it true that there were check-points at all major access
13 roads to towns and that those check-points were in existence in -- or
14 rather throughout former Yugoslavia
15 A. I never saw those check-points in person at the time when travel
16 was still possible. Even when in 1992 I went to Zagreb which we
17 mentioned yesterday, I heard of the existence of check-points on the road
18 to Gradiska, so I went by way of Samac, but I never saw any check-points
19 myself, so I cannot confirm that from my personal experience.
20 Furthermore, when I was in Sarajevo
21 I never saw those check-points. I went from the railroad station to my
22 apartment freely and I never saw a check-point. That's really the truth.
23 I cannot confirm that. I don't know the situation in other areas. As
24 far as I know, I can say that probably there were such check-points.
25 Q. Are you trying to say that there was no check-point on the access
1 road to the city of Zagreb
2 asked you whether you had weapons, searched your car?
3 A. No, nobody asked me anything. I went by way of Samac and I had
4 no such experience.
5 Q. But you knew of a check-point on the road to Gradiska and that's
6 why you chose a different road?
7 A. But when I went to see my son in Slavonski Brod in 1991, I went
8 to Slavonski Brod, I don't remember the exact date, on the motorway there
9 was some sort of a check-point manned by soldiers, and I stopped there
10 and described that in my book. But I stopped there because I wanted to
11 of my own accord. Because I saw armed people in the field threatening
12 us, and I stopped to inquire what that was about. We were naive to the
13 extent we had no idea what was going on, which is corroborated by the
14 fact that we were travelling with a child in our car.
15 Q. It's not in dispute and you certainly know that at that time
16 there was a huge amount of illegal weapons around -- supplied from all
17 sides and smuggled and purchased, changing hands?
18 A. Yes, I read about that.
19 Q. In your book and in your witness statement on page 22, you stated
20 that the leader of the SDA party from Prijedor towards the end of 1991
21 told you that they had over 2.000 rifles in Prijedor and one small gun,
22 cannon; do you remember that statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If I understand that correctly, that means that in Prijedor in
25 1991 there were over 2.000 armed fighting men among Bosniak Muslims?
1 A. But I didn't mention another thing, namely that they said it was
2 exaggerated, flamboyance.
3 Q. Isn't it the case that the meeting held in Zenica with the
4 Patriotic League where all the regions participated and that was towards
5 the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, isn't it the case that the
6 Military Council of the Patriotic League was surprised by the quantity of
7 weapons that Bosniaks, Muslims, possessed in the Bosnian Krajina?
8 A. I heard about this from a man, not from the council. It's all
9 relative, therefore --
10 Q. Just a moment. About this you say everything is relative,
11 whereas yesterday and today you keep telling us that some things were
12 agreed or happening in the territory of a certain other municipality and
13 you only heard about it, but it's true, whereas this other piece of
14 information, you also heard it from someone is relative?
15 A. No, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that someone told
16 me about it.
17 Q. Isn't it true that in your book you stated that this Military
18 Council of the Patriotic League estimated the Krajina to be in a much
19 better position than other areas to organise armed resistance and
21 A. Again, I heard from that person, but it was not an official
22 meeting, it was a chat over coffee.
23 Q. Well, sir, you are the one who put that information into your
24 book. If you did not believe it to be true, you probably wouldn't write
1 A. I wrote many things in the book to link up various events. That
2 doesn't mean that I stand behind everything written there. A chat over a
3 cup of coffee is one thing. A document is quite another.
4 Q. Well, does that also apply then to your witness statement because
5 you said the same thing in your witness statement and whatever is not
6 documented is not completely reliable. Is that what you are trying to
8 A. Well, maybe this person was telling me this tendentiously because
9 we did not have a particular relationship of trust. Other information
10 that I got, I often verified and these were people who were either linked
11 to me through the SDA or we had some sort of privatise or they were
12 friends of my associates.
13 Q. But you did not check this information, I suppose, because you
14 knew that the commander of the Patriotic League, Mr. Sefer Halilovic in
15 the autumn of 1991 came to Banja Luka to see how the organisation of the
16 Patriotic League was coming along and you saw him?
17 A. That's an excellent question.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour, just a moment ago Defence
20 counsel stated that this witness had made the same statement about the
21 Patriotic League in one of his statements. I was hoping that Defence
22 counsel could refer us to where in the statement that is just so we can
23 confirm it.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: The witness talks about this very piece of his
25 book, or the reference to his book is on page 23 of his statement of
1 2000, 2001. I will give you the paragraph, it's penultimate paragraph
2 and it's in Serbian version. I'm sorry, I have a Serbian or B/C/S
3 statement. It says on page 18:
4 "I was talking about the meeting that was held in Zenica on which
5 all regions participated so the data on arms can be compared. On that
6 particular meeting, the Military Council of Patriotic League was
7 astonished by the data because they were surprised by the numbers and
8 they estimated that the Bosnian Krajina was in far better position than
9 other regions for organising the rebellion" -- and well, it doesn't say
10 rebellion, it's, I'm sorry, I'm not very good with the translations.
12 MR. OLMSTED: We found the reference, and we would object to the
13 question because the statement continues exactly as the witness says
15 "I did not attend this meeting. I learned about it from an
16 individual who is dead now, I have to warn that the above comments should
17 be taken cautiously." So I don't think there was an inconsistent
18 testimony here today about that.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that it was
20 inconsistent testimony, I just said that he wrote that in his book and
21 confirmed it in his statement, the very same thing in -- what he wrote in
22 his book, and the witness gave a comment.
23 MR. OLMSTED: Prosecution maintains its objection, because again
24 he doesn't in a sense confirm it, he actually say it is should be taken
25 cautiously, but nothing further.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 which you can return in re-examination. I'm not sure it's a basis for an
3 objection to the question.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Witness, yesterday when you were talking about the arming of
6 Serbs you said that the military armed them; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. It was, in fact, about issuing arms to reservists and members of
9 the Territorial Defence; isn't that correct?
10 A. I suppose so.
11 Q. Well, if the military is arming its own reservists in the
12 Territorial Defence then by the nature of things it should be in keeping
13 with the law and strict records would be kept as to who was issued with
15 A. Yes, but only Serbs got them.
16 Q. That's because Bosniaks, Muslims, on the instructions of your
17 party refused to report to military reserve units and mobilisation
19 A. I would have to finish my answer to the previous question,
20 referring to Sefer Halilovic. Well, please allow me to finish.
21 Q. Sir, my learned friend from the Prosecution will have a chance
22 after I finish to conduct additional examination, and he will take up all
23 the facts that he believes need clarification. Now, in my turn I'm
24 asking you, isn't it true that Bosniaks would not respond to mobilisation
25 call-ups although it was illegal to refuse?
1 A. Bosniaks received public instructions through the press by the
2 SDA not to respond to mobilisation.
3 Q. Of course not everyone obeyed this proclamation of the SDA and
4 those Bosniaks, Muslims who did respond to the call-up, received weapons?
5 A. I suppose so.
6 Q. So this issue of weapons again had nothing to do with ethnicity,
7 the only criterion was whether the person responded to the call-up as was
8 his legal obligation or not?
9 A. Mobilisation is one thing, distributing weapons door to door is
10 quite a different thing. That was called receiving weapons, not issuing
11 weapons. When weapons are issued, you are in uniform and you sign a
12 receipt. This was distribution of weapons to civilians of only one
14 Q. We discussed this a moment ago, sir, and we agreed that the army
15 was arming it's reservists and members of the Territorial Defence and you
16 agreed that was legal, that records were kept, and that it was in
17 conformity with the law?
18 A. Just one thing --
19 Q. And then you said that it was problematic because only Serbs were
20 involved and then we agreed that Bosniaks, if they had responded to the
21 mobilisation call-up, would have received weapons as well, isn't that
23 A. Yes, as far as mobilisation is concerned.
24 Q. Sir, the fact that somebody receives a weapon while not wearing a
25 uniform at that very moment does not mean he is not receiving -- that he
1 is not a reservist. He signs a receipt that he is receiving a weapon
2 from supplies, but he is a member of the Territorial Defence or the
4 A. I was in the Territorial Defence, and we never received any
5 weapons unless we had been mobilised first and wearing a uniform.
6 Q. You are talking about peacetime?
7 A. I'm talking about a time before this.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, I have no further
9 questions for you. [In English] I'm finished with this witness.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Krzic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I am lawyer Pantelic appearing here for Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.
16 Mr. Krzic, you are a tolerant man, aren't you?
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. Because you were a diplomat and a politician in the past, you are
19 a person of moderate views who is always trying to find a solution
20 through dialogue?
21 A. I can only thank you for that opinion.
22 Q. You stated in one of your witness statements that your family was
23 in the partisans in the Second World War?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Could you tell us a few details about the members of your family
1 who fought in the Second World War?
2 A. Four of my paternal uncles were members of the partisan movement,
3 some of them from the very start from 1941 through the end of 1942, and
4 my father worked as an illegal for the partisan movement in Banja Luka
5 Q. And your family has lived in Banja Luka for several generations,
6 you are an old urban family?
7 A. On the paternal side, yes. On the maternal side we are not from
8 Banja Luka.
9 Q. And for several generations you have been a prominent family?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I suppose that from your childhood you have been of Muslim faith?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when you became a member of the League of Communists in 1970,
14 the times were like that, it was necessary to get along in service,
15 et cetera. Why was your mother unhappy?
16 A. Just a minor correction that matters to me a great deal however,
17 they came to ask me to join the party after my volunteer work to help the
18 population stricken by the earthquake. My mother was disappointed
19 probably because the entire family, including my aunts on both sides,
20 were members of the communist movement and she was intimately against
22 Q. This is not a very important issue, I can tell you straightaway,
23 but I infer from this that your mother was not really a communist
25 A. She was a believer, a religious woman. I cannot really make
1 these differences. Religion was respected in my home but it was
2 concealed. In those times, the communist times, it didn't do to display
3 any religious feelings openly. But there was absolute respect between
4 both sides of the family, those who believed and those who didn't.
5 Q. I quite understand. As a man who lived through some good times
6 because we have to admit, in those times, the times of Tito there were a
7 lot of good things, would you agree that in Bosnia and Herzegovina
8 balance was always sought between the interests of the three constituent
10 A. Certainly.
11 Q. As for the expression, the freedom of expression and democratic
12 freedoms and other aspects of democratic society, it was not quite so
13 liberal. It was sort of held tightly with an iron hand?
14 A. Yes, the approach was restrictive.
15 Q. However, the national principle was observed in politics, the
16 principle of national parity in proportion, in big companies as well,
17 would you agree?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As far as I know, and you will correct me if I'm wrong, in those
20 times one couldn't say that any of the ethnic communities were really
21 oppressed or threatened or pushed out by the majority of other
23 A. For the main part, yes, although statistics from that period seem
24 to show that in the army and on the police force this principle was
25 really disrupted.
1 Q. At the expense of Muslims?
2 A. I would say at the expense of non-Serbs. I don't have the
3 statistics before me, but --
4 Q. Of course, that is your impression. Let's not go into any
5 detail, however --
6 JUDGE HALL
7 time for the break.
8 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, it was my impression it was 10.30. So
9 thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, before the witness is brought in to
13 court, I would like the record to show that Mr. Cvijetic has joined us
14 now. Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 to the stand, the Chamber noting that the present schedule anticipates
17 that the witness who is to follow the witness now on the stand, his
18 testimony would be completed tomorrow, and the Prosecution is unable to
19 present a witness for Friday, that Friday's slot would be most usefully
20 spent dealing with a number of procedural matters which both parties
21 have, and therefore, the Court -- the Chamber intends to sit on Friday to
22 deal with these matters and accordingly requests counsel from both sides
23 to have a list of those issues by the close of today's work so that we
24 would know the issues with which we would be concerned come Friday
25 morning at 9.00. Thank you.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krzic, we are about to continue the
4 cross-examination. Even after the multi-party elections in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the principle of equality of peoples in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is the protection of their vital interests was
7 honoured; right?
8 A. There were indeed indications to the effect that the previous
9 practice would be continued.
10 Q. And a coalition agreement was struck between the HDZ, SDA and the
12 lowest level; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, I would like to deal with some very brief issues from the
15 surroundings of Banja Luka, I mean the historical context, but it is
16 clearly linked to this situation.
17 It is a generally known fact that in Croatia during World War II
18 on the border with Bosnia
19 camp where several hundred thousand Serbs and numbers of other
20 ethnicities were killed; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It is also a known fact that in the surroundings of Banja Luka
23 the hamlet of Drakulici in February 1942 about 2.300 Serbs were killed;
24 is that correct?
25 A. I cannot confirm numbers generally speaking, but I know of this
1 massacre so I can confirm that it took place, but I must also add that
2 the monument which was erected there during communism mentions the number
3 of 220 people, so I cannot confirm the figure you stated.
4 Q. Let us not go into these details, but what matters to me is that
5 you are familiar with that event and the surroundings of Banja Luka
6 during World War II. Now we are dealing with quite different things.
7 You will also agree that in that period of suffering in the Second World
8 War in the Bosnian Krajina a significant number of Serbs fell victims
9 such as in Sanski Most, Bihac, other places around Banja Luka, et cetera.
10 These are historical facts. Do you agree with me?
11 A. Sir, I hold you in high esteem, but you are asking questions to
12 which the answer cannot be ambiguous, but this being a specific
13 situation, I would ask you to take into consideration the victims of
14 other ethnicities at the same time and the same places. I don't want the
15 Chamber to get the impression that crimes were committed only against
17 Q. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I don't want to
18 question that, but I want to ask you whether you know that after the
19 conflict in Croatia
20 around 50.000 at that time, fled Croatia
21 Did you witness that process?
22 A. That was a process which took some time, it didn't happen at
23 once, but the figures that we spoke about at that time were up to 5.000
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Krzic, do you personally distinguish citizens and
1 the population of a town from inhabitants of rural areas, that is village
2 folk? Are these all people of the same level?
3 A. I am a person who has the same approach toward everybody, but I
4 must also say that I am aware of the huge differences that exist between
5 rural populace generally speaking of which I was reminded recently, and
6 townsfolk who are custom to co-existence in the same era.
7 Q. So it is your position, if I understand you correctly, that there
8 are traditional cultural sociological and other differences between urban
9 populations and rural populations?
10 A. Yes, significant differences.
11 Q. You will probably also agree with me when I say that when village
12 folk come to town and rise to some positions of authority, they also
13 jeopardize the positions of townsfolk?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During the war in propaganda and in political speeches, you will
16 probably agree with me there was much exaggeration on all three sides,
17 Muslim, Croat, and Serbian; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And each side at some moments and in line with their intentions
20 used some derogatory expressions for the others; non-Serbs would call
21 Serbs Chetniks; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then Muslims were called Turks or balija; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Croats were called Ustashas?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That was a part of public speech and the ways of that time;
4 A. Well, speaking about Banja Luka, I will say, yes, that is
6 Q. You as an educated and tolerant man would not use, or did you at
7 that time, use the derogatory term of Chetnik to refer to a Serb?
8 A. In a private conversation, yes, but never in public. But I must
9 immediately add that I would use the term Chetnik only to refer to
10 killers, people killing others or people who would themselves -- who
11 would present themselves as Chetniks, but not otherwise.
12 Q. But let us return to your book witnessing crime and your love
13 toward Bosnia
14 and the like almost on every page; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, and I believe that is compatible with what you and I both
16 said earlier.
17 Q. That is to say apart from privately, you also publicly
18 categorised the Serbs in this manner in your book?
19 A. No, not as a generally as that because there were also Serbs who
20 couldn't bear all that and who behaved humanely, very humanely. I also
21 stressed that among other information that we received, there was also
22 the term Croatian cadre, although they were not only Serbian, they were
23 also Croatian.
24 Q. Apart from being an intellectual and a diplomat, you are also a
25 writer, so I suppose that in that literary jargon sometimes exaggerations
1 are made; is that correct?
2 A. Certainly.
3 Q. Tell me, Mr. Krzic, have you read the Islamic declaration whose
4 author is the former president of the SDA, Alija Izetbegovic?
5 A. I read it once, maybe twice. I don't have it. I was looking for
6 it because I wanted to remind myself what it says, but I couldn't find
8 Q. We won't go into details, but as far as you remember, your
9 attitude toward that is positive. You have no objections to what
10 Mr. Izetbegovic wrote there?
11 A. Well, my opinion is that writing that should not be a crime.
12 Q. But I'm referring to the views put forward in the Islamic
13 declaration, you share those views?
14 A. I remember very poorly, but there were some very general views
15 put forward there that go beyond Bosnia
16 that declaration had no practical value whatsoever for Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 or for the Bosniak people at the time. I take that to be more of a
18 philosophical work.
19 Q. Well, sometimes philosophical works have serious value. One of
20 the views put forward there is that there is no co-existence between
21 Islam and other religions, do you agree with that?
22 A. Well, if it exists, I disagree with that. I never agreed with
23 that. You can't find anything of the kind in my biography.
24 Q. Do you agree with the part of that book that deals with the
25 uppermost duty of a Muslim to build a Muslim state, create Muslim
1 institutions, and be a majority there?
2 A. Well, you are asking me about the declaration. Why don't you
3 simply put something to me and ask me whether I agree with that? Because
4 I only took a superficial look at that declaration. I had many more
5 important things to deal with, such as the book "Islam Between the West
6 and the East."
7 Q. But do you agree with that view?
8 A. No, I absolutely disagree.
9 Q. When the SDA was established, I understand the word "action" from
10 its name as something stemming from the Islamic declaration, which means
11 that Muslims must fight continuously to reach some positions. This
12 action presupposes offensive, doesn't it?
13 A. But I must -- before answering, I must add something. The author
14 of that name was the well-known musician Safet Isovic who was a leftist,
15 possibly not really a communist, but anyway, action can be interpreted as
16 work. As a young man I took part in labour actions, that's what they
17 were called at the time, actions. That's part of a jargon, a socialist
19 Q. Well, tell me then, Mr. Krzic, now that we are speaking about
20 this, did the programme of the SDA include the ideas of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina being a secular state without very strong ties with
22 religious institutions?
23 A. Well, I don't want to go ever into the phrasing of your question,
24 but yes, I believe that was so and on general terms that there should be
25 no official ties between the state and the religion, so, yes, religion
1 was respected but certainly Bosnia-Herzegovina was not to be a religious
3 Q. But let me ask you another thing. What does Mahsuz Sellam mean,
4 the greeting?
5 A. Sellam means greeting, and Mahsuz means special greeting.
6 Q. For the sake of the transcript, let me spell that correctly. [In
7 English] Expression of M-a-h-s-u-z then another word, S-e-l-l-a-m.
8 [Interpretation] Now, were there any Serbs in the SDA?
9 A. Yes, initially.
10 Q. Are you speaking about Banja Luka?
11 A. Yes, Banja Luka.
12 Q. I noticed in several letters you wrote that in the communication
13 between you as the president of the SDA of Banja Luka and headquarters
14 and also in the communication between you as a man who collected
15 information and who was at the BiH mission in New York that you often
16 finish your letters with the greeting Mahsuz Sellam; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As opposed, but it's really just an assumption, correct me if I'm
19 wrong, that the members of the SDA who are of Serbian or Croatian origin,
20 that is Christians, wouldn't feel comfortable when confronted with this
21 basically religious greeting; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in the BiH mission, which should have had staff from all
24 three ethnicities, isn't it quite unusual to use a religious greeting in
1 A. I wasn't a diplomat at the time, I was the leader of a, well,
2 provincial party, I can say at the time. That greeting was used as a
3 sign not of difference, but more of an expression of protest. Nowadays,
4 that phrase is mostly used in private letters, not only today, it's been
5 like that for awhile. In Sarajevo
6 Ciao is used widely. That's an Italian greeting. It's probably been
7 chosen so as not to make that difference.
8 Q. Now that you've mentioned Sarajevo and bearing in mind that you
9 have a house in Banja Luka, which is your property, do you also own an
10 apartment in Sarajevo
11 A. Yes, I do have property in Sarajevo.
12 Q. You got an apartment from the government institutions; right?
13 A. I bought the apartment when it was privatised, and I sold a house
14 in Banja Luka.
15 Q. To who did that apartment in Sarajevo belong before you bought
17 A. I wouldn't like provide an answer to that question, you can do
18 so, but if necessary, I will.
19 Q. Go ahead.
20 A. It was the second apartment of a person and as they had two
21 apartments, one of them had to be vacated.
22 Q. Was that person of Serbian ethnicity?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I paused because of the transcript. Mr. Krzic, you are a smart
25 man, an intellectual. I'm sure you will agree with me when I say that
1 these unfortunate events in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina had as a
2 consequence massive migrations so that nowadays a negligible percentage
3 of Serbs lives in Sarajevo
4 A. Well, if we compare it to the previous number, I certainly
5 suppose that the number is significantly smaller, although I don't have
6 any exact figures.
7 Q. Likewise there are hardly any Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?
8 A. I can only assume that's the case.
9 Q. Well, generally speaking there have been movements of
10 population --
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: We have been far around during the first stage of
12 your cross-examination. I'm bewildered as it to where we are going, so I
13 think you should tighten up and get to the point.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I take your instructions, of
16 Q. [Interpretation] But let us finish this. We will agree that
17 rather a large or huge number of Serbs came to the Republika Srpska?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you acknowledge the reality that the Republika Srpska is in
20 existence and that it's a constituent entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that the bodies -- the authority of the bodies of the
23 Republika Srpska is also defined by this international agreement;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You will certainly agree with me when I say that during the war
2 between 1992 and 1995 a large number of camps was to be found in
3 territories controlled by Muslim forces where Serbs were imprisoned and a
4 certain number of Croats; is that correct?
5 A. I really have never seen them. I've heard of them, but I don't
6 have the information that you have mentioned. But certainly I will agree
7 that people were imprisoned.
8 Q. As far as Banja Luka is concerned, I believe that you mentioned
9 yesterday in answering to my learned friend's question, that there was an
10 SDA initiative to establish new municipalities in Banja Luka; correct?
11 A. Yes. Not only the SDA, I mentioned that it was the initiative of
12 all parties except the SDS
13 Q. And the objective was, and you have described it in your book
14 too, that based on the survey of the justification to establish these
15 municipalities, the former territory of Banja Luka be divided into some
16 six municipalities; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But the objective of that initiative, and I will now mention
19 these envisaged municipalities, namely Stari Grad, Novi Grad, Budzak,
20 Bronzani Majdan, Krupa na Vrbasu, and Ivanjska?
21 A. Yes, I made a mistake yesterday, I believe I mentioned Stricici,
22 but that may have been wrong, you understand that I cannot remember
24 Q. And you are saying that it was actually an initiative by your
25 party to establish municipalities with a non-Serb majority, that's what
1 it says in your book, you mentioned that; correct?
2 A. I don't remember, I would have to take a look at it, and you
3 would have to provide me with a reference to a page in my book, but
4 generally speaking no municipality apart from one possibly, no
5 municipality could have had a Bosniak majority.
6 Q. All right. Your statement reads that you were one of the
7 founders of the SDA in Banja Luka, and in September 1991, what was your
8 position in the SDA of Banja Luka?
9 A. First I was secretary, then I became president.
10 Q. But in September 1991?
11 A. I was vice-president of the SDA.
12 Q. And of course you took part in all discussions in the party and
13 in all decision-making. We'll now look at a document originating from
14 your party branch.
15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask for 1D1. Now we also
16 see the B/C/S version as well as the English one.
17 Q. The copy is not too good but I'd like to draw your attention --
18 first of all, you are familiar with the document, it comes from the
19 Municipal Board based in the cultural hall, you see the SDA stamped at
20 the bottom? And finally, you mention this initiative in your book. It's
21 an SDA document; right?
22 A. It must have been, but I don't remember this document. I still
23 haven't had time to look at it properly. I'm looking at the English
24 version because the B/C/S one is bad.
25 MR. PANTELIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... Of B/C/S version,
1 please, of second paragraph. Second paragraph of B/C/S version just
2 enlarged, please.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Let me help you, if I can. It says that the
4 Banja Luka municipality is one of the largest in Yugoslavia
5 discussed this with my colleague yesterday. It was not very efficient
6 and there were certain initiatives to divide it up. What's important to
7 me in this document, which reflects the initiative for all this, is that
8 the main motivation, as it says in the last sentence, is "in this
9 environment, Muslims have an advantage over the Serbian element, 38 to 36
10 per cent, while together with other ethnic groups, they comprise a
11 two-thirds majority, 64 per cent." Can you see this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Your party initiative to set up these municipalities was, in
14 fact, driven by the SDA's idea to create municipalities with the majority
15 non-Serb population, that's what we see from this document?
16 A. I think you are mostly right, but I don't agree with the non-Serb
17 population part. I don't how authentic this document is.
18 Q. Just for the record, let's be quite clear. The motivation of
19 this move was to create municipalities where Muslims together with other
20 ethnic communities would have an approximately 64 per cent majority?
21 A. You are reading the last sentence. You are taking it out of
22 context. You have to look at this passage in its full context.
23 Q. Well, how do you understand this?
24 A. There are also economic considerations, and as the political
25 situation was as it was, non-Serbs could hardly wait to get a chance to
1 have some influence on local self-government, and this was a real chance
2 and if we had had real authorities, we would have maintained peace.
3 There would have been no such conflicts.
4 Q. I'm telling you again that my position is this, the SDA wanted to
5 create several municipalities in Banja Luka with a majority non-Serb
6 population in order to be able to form a government and to exercise power
7 efficiently. Just answer me with a yes or no.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Now we look at another document, 1D4.
10 Q. [Interpretation] This is a draft of the statutory decision of the
11 organisation of a Stari Grad Banja Luka Municipal Assembly in the process
12 of being established. Are you familiar with this document, Mr. Krzic?
13 A. I can't say I am because I don't have it. I haven't seen it
14 before. At least I can't remember.
15 Q. All right, Mr. Krzic. We got these documents from the
16 Prosecution, but that concerns our procedure, not you. Was there any
17 discussion at your party meetings about the draft of this decision to
18 organise the Stari Grad Banja Luka municipality?
19 A. Yes, I can't remember participating in it.
20 Q. All right. I'd like to ask you about something else now. One of
21 the objectives of your work in Banja Luka in a large percentage of your
22 secret clandestine activities that you mentioned in the book was to lobby
23 to get the deployment of international military forces in Banja Luka
24 or no?
25 A. Those were our wishes. We didn't have any other objective except
1 to report the real situation in the territory.
2 Q. Wait a minute. SFOR finally came so your wishes came true.
3 Let's move on.
4 Was it one of your objectives to draw media attention to Banja
5 Luka and Bosnian Krajina?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was it another of your objectives in your clandestine work to
8 form a professional team to monitor the situation in Bosnian Krajina?
9 A. You call that a team, I call it a group.
10 Q. All right. Let it be a group. Was it the case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it your aim it to disable the resettlement of Serbs in Banja
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was it one of your aims to exert continuous military pressure on
16 the Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres line and the Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos line?
17 A. I don't see how we could have contributed to that purpose. It
18 was a wish.
19 Q. Yes, wish.
20 A. It was the wish of every citizen.
21 Q. I'm not interested in every citizen, I'm asking about you.
22 A. Yes, it was my wish, I would have really wanted
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina --
24 Q. No, no, wait. Let's be very precise. It was your wish to exert
25 continuous military pressure on the Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres line and the
1 Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos line; right?
2 A. Please to have an objective is one thing, an intimate desire is
3 something else. Intimate desires are not up for discussion here.
4 Q. We'll come to intimate desires. Was it one of your aims or let's
5 say intimate desires to conduct surveillance over prominent SDS members
6 in some of the cities to contribute to your security?
7 A. I can't remember anything of the sort.
8 Q. Let's find a reminder then.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Just a moment. It's number -- yes, it's in
10 e-court, 2D05-0047.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: While we are waiting for the document, the
14 qualification of the witness's work or activities as clandestine, is that
15 your qualification or is that the witness's qualification? You use it
16 but do you have it from his book, or is it your qualification?
17 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, the answer is in front of us.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have the last page, please
20 [Microphone not activated]
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krzic, towards the bottom of the page, do we
22 see your signature, Muharem Krzic, president of the Executive Board of
23 the SDA?
24 A. I think so, yes, it is.
25 Q. Yes, it is. In this correspondence between parties, you use this
1 greeting Mahsuz Sellam, we discussed this before?
2 A. Yes, but it does conclude with best regards, doesn't it?
3 Q. It does. But please read to the Trial Chamber your own
4 proposals. Point 1, for the record.
5 A. Please, will you allow me to add something to this?
6 Q. No, I won't. Let the Prosecutor allow you to do this.
7 A. Well, then you read it.
8 Q. I don't mind. In this document in point 1, does it say:
9 "Urgent deployment of international military forces in Banja
10 Luka." Yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Point 2, "media attention to Banja Luka and Bosanska Krajina."
13 Yes or no?
14 A. Yes. My answer is going to be yes to all of these points if you
15 read them out.
16 Q. 3: "Establish a professional team to monitor the situation in
17 Bosanska Krajina." Yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Point 4: "Prevent any form of Serb resettlement in Banja Luka
20 Yes or no?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. 5: "Continuous military pressure on Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres and
23 Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos" yes or no?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And point 6: "Keep an eye on prominent members of the SDS
1 some of the cities as a guarantee of our safety" yes or no?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krzic.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Can we have this document as next exhibit, please.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 2D31, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the dates, I forgot again?
8 MR. PANTELIC: Can we have the first page, please. The date is
9 11th of October, 1992.
10 [Interpretation] Now do you remember, Mr. Krzic --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic, I'm sorry, but I didn't see the
12 answer to my question in what you showed us. You said we would see it in
13 this document, in the previous one.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe I didn't understand you, Your Honour. I was
15 asking him to confirm these measures that he proposed to the --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, my question was -- my question was about the
17 beginning of this line of questions. You said his activities -- his
18 activities were clandestine. You qualified them as clandestine, and my
19 question is, is that your qualification of his activities or is that the
20 witness's qualification, in his book eventually?
21 MR. PANTELIC: I clarify that immediately, Your Honour, but this
22 is another line of question but for the basis I'll establish immediately.
23 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Krzic, you heard the Judge, His Honour
24 Judge Delvoie. You will agree with me if I say that based on all of your
25 witness statements and your book and everything else, I came to the
1 conclusion that you led a very proactive clandestine activity in Banja
3 A. That's partially true.
4 Q. It involved contacts with your own representatives, with foreign
5 embassies, international representatives, et cetera?
7 Q. In those activities you use code-names, encryption, some secret
9 A. Not with the institutions you mentioned. It was exclusively used
10 among members of the Executive Board of the SDA.
11 Q. All right. We'll come back to that. But you had a group that
12 secretly gathered intelligence on the Army of Republika Srpska, the
13 movements of troops, funerals of Serb soldiers, et cetera?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in that group of yours, you used code-names?
16 A. No, it was only between one other person and me. Just one other
17 person and me.
18 Q. But you were the brain of the whole operation in the group?
19 A. I was not the brain of the group. It was all spontaneous.
20 Everything that was found out on the ground was transmitted to me
21 reckoning that I would go abroad.
22 Q. But you were at the head of this intelligence group?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And your code-name was Torry?
25 A. I think I started using that Tory code-name only towards the end
1 of 1992 hoping that it would give me some protection. As for the other
2 code-names, I don't know anything.
3 Q. What was your code word for weapons? Was it "timber"?
4 A. I really don't know. It was only in the correspondence between
5 another member and me.
6 Q. And the code word for danger was "heat"?
7 A. I really can't remember. I see you have information from the
8 police who interrogated that group. What they told the police, I really
9 don't know.
10 Q. To tell you the truth, all this is in your statements, but we'll
11 come to that later. No need to defend yourself. That's your activity
12 and you were convicted before a competent Court for that. But what I
13 want to know about is the rally that the SDA organised in Banja Luka
14 that was, correct me if I'm wrong, on the 20th April 1991. You remember
15 that rally?
16 A. Of course I remember the rally, but I would really have to look
17 at my notes to confirm the date, but I take your word for it.
18 Q. That's what you say in your book?
19 A. Then it must be so.
20 Q. You say that renowned representatives of the Bosniak community
21 from Zazine Krajina dared to come to the very nest of the Chetnik
23 A. That's the derogatory term we used for hotel Bosna.
24 Q. And then President Alija Izetbegovic who attended the rally said
25 the following:
1 "We send a message to our neighbours that we will share both good
2 and evil with them, but we will never again go with our heads bent and we
3 will never again be second-class citizens. We offer them to build
4 jointly a joint state." You remember these words by Izetbegovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How do you understand these words? I didn't understand from your
7 answers that Muslims used to be second-class citizens in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina. What is this supposed to mean in this context? In
9 1992 who was threatening the interests of the Bosniak people?
10 A. I think it had more to do with the historical context. Why?
11 Primarily because Bosniaks as a people were unfortunately not recognised
12 in the former Yugoslavia
13 Muslims, but it was not our historical name, and I think these words by
14 Izetbegovic refer to that.
15 Q. You go on to say that the joint message was a unified integrated
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina without creating nationally homogenous regions which
17 would be against all the peoples, and it goes on to say, There would be
18 no division of Bosnia
19 A. I believe you are reading correctly.
20 Q. How did you interpret this statement he made, this remark that it
21 may end in bloodshed? Was it a peacemaking speech, or was it a kind of
22 brandishing of arms?
23 A. Of course as he was speaking, I was not able to analyse every
24 word, but I think the general impression was very positive. There were
25 Serbs also at the rally, there was a pretty loud applause in the second
1 part of the rally, and this passage where Izetbegovic spoke about joint
2 construction was welcomed by Mr. Abdic who clarified this economic part
3 at least with regard to Bosnian Krajina.
4 And then you should also know that Bosnia is a patchwork
5 ethnically speaking, a leopard skin, and every attempt to create
6 exclusive territories where there would be no room for others meant
7 bloodshed because no one would accept it, and I think it ultimately
8 turned out that what Mr. Izetbegovic said was true.
9 Q. And in 1991 armed forces were created under the name of Patriotic
11 A. I don't know the exact date.
12 Q. But armed forces were established?
13 A. Perhaps only on paper. We also wanted to make supplies of
14 medicines and bandages in case of war. Anyway, I was not informed of
15 that, although I was permanently in Banja Luka at the time.
16 Q. All right, but you did speak about the indivisibility of
17 territories but you also said and confirmed that you wanted to form six
18 new municipalities within the municipality of Banja Luka with a non-Serb
19 majority. Isn't that contrary to what Izetbegovic is saying?
20 A. You are forgetting to mention the formation of ZOBK the
21 Autonomous Region of Krajina, and this referendum, and the SAO Krajina
22 exclusively Serb creations. All this came before.
23 Q. You told us here that it was your initiative to create
24 municipalities with a majority non-Serb population. You confirmed this
25 for the record. It's documented. So I'm asking you now, isn't that
1 contrary to your interpretation of Izetbegovic's speech, yes or no?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you. Let's move on. You use very often in your statements
4 and in your writings the phrase that Banja Luka was a concentration camp?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would that be part of your literary writing, or is it a claim
7 that Banja Luka was a concentration camp? Please hear me out. Do you
8 agree that a concentration camp, as I understand it at least, from the
9 tragic history of the Second World War should have armed security, should
10 have a certain structure, and people within are destroyed? How do you
11 explain that when Banja Luka was a place when there were planes and buses
12 travelling from Banja Luka, international representatives were coming and
13 going, life was going on, with all the incidents that also occurred I
14 don't deny, isn't it -- isn't this literary language of yours that Banja
15 Luka was a concentration camp a little bit exaggerated? Please don't --
16 this is cross-examination, just answer me with a -- was it an
18 A. I agree with you about the memory of the Second World War. The
20 Q. Mr. Krzic, this is a cross-examination, please. I'm asking you
21 on the basis of all I stated before, would you correct your statement
22 now? Would you say that perhaps you were rather liberal in your estimate
23 of the situation in Banja Luka, do you change your position or not?
24 A. Am I allowed to say to which dates this refers because as far as
25 1992 and 1993 is concerned, I stand behind what I said.
1 Q. When you mention genocide, do you know the legal definition of
2 genocide, do you have the legal training to enable you to know what it
4 A. I could explain that but that would take too much time, and it
5 isn't necessary.
6 Q. Is it correct that in your books and statements, you exaggerate
7 some events and to do so for purposes of propaganda, that's why you
8 mention genocide, concentration camps, extermination, et cetera?
10 Q. You did so for propaganda reasons to attract the attention of the
11 international public; is that correct?
12 A. No, I have evidence to corroborate all that.
13 Q. But that's not legal evidence, these are your assessments; right?
14 A. But there is legal evidence among that too.
15 Q. I would like to define something here, namely, in your statements
16 and in your book you mention that you were arrested by soldiers and taken
17 to the CSB
18 you remember those episodes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And for the transcript and for the benefit of this case, I would
21 like you to agree with me that this all was happening on September 1993?
22 A. Well, I'm not fully concentrated, so I'm not sure if it's
23 September or early October, but I believe it was September 11th.
24 Q. Which year?
25 A. 1993.
1 Q. During a military action, September 1993; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This was very important to me because all these events are
4 outside of the scope of the indictment so we don't want to waste time on
5 that and take it off the agenda.
6 Now, about Banja Luka, let's clarify some issues. Number one, in
7 your statement you say that the SDA, which party was dissatisfied with
8 political life, to put it that way, that the SDA walked out of the Banja
9 Luka Assembly; correct?
10 A. To express their protest.
11 Q. Protest, yes. And that protest, the reason for that protest was
12 the fact that out of 117 members of the Assembly, 68 voted in favour,
13 that's a majority; correct?
14 A. Yes, but that was a simple majority, a two-thirds majority was
16 Q. Please wait, I'm going step by step, we'll clarify everything.
17 You are saying that the SDS
18 able to get some votes from other parties; correct? Who do I have in
19 mind specifically, the communists and your former Muslim Assembly member
20 Mr. Emir Busatlic, that's what you say in your book, is that correct?
21 A. No, not for that reason.
22 Q. The SDS
23 joining the association of communities -- sorry, municipalities of
24 Bosnian Krajina. That was on the 1st of May 1991, yes or no?
25 A. Yes, that decision was taken.
1 Q. And then to express your protest, when I say you, I mean the SDA
2 party, you walked out; correct?
3 A. Because the procedure was illegal.
4 Q. Excellent. Now, tell me your personal opinion. What was
5 happening and how do you assess the procedure during the night between
6 the 14th and 15th October 1991 in the Assembly of the Republic of BiH
7 when the vital interests of the representatives of the Serbian people
8 were jeopardized and when the Serbs were outvoted by the Muslims and
9 Croats? Tell me, did that threaten the constitutional order, yes or no?
10 A. I don't know the constitution that was in force at the time, and
11 especially I'm not familiar with the rules of procedure of the then
12 parliament of BiH.
13 Q. Yes, but you remember that this caused a serious crisis after
14 which a series of events ensued?
15 A. Yes, I remember that event when the representatives of the Serb
16 people left the parliament.
17 Q. In your contacts in Banja Luka, did you ever hear that the main
18 motive was the unconstitutional outvoting of the Serb representatives?
19 A. Most probably I did hear about it but I didn't interpret it that
20 way because I wasn't familiar with the regulations -- laws and
22 Q. Now, that we are speaking about the establishing of the Republika
23 Srpska, you know that it was established by plebiscite in January 1992,
24 and it came of age recently, you do know that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And the Republika Srpska adopted its constitution, subordinate
2 legislation, and it established government soon afterward; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The Republika Srpska as the the other part of Bosnia-Herzegovina
6 which other part was subsequently called the Federation of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that Federation was made up of the representatives of Croats
10 and Muslims; correct?
11 A. And Serbs.
12 Q. And Serbs. I'm referring to the territory. The laws of former
14 A. As far as I remember, but, sir, these are questions you should
15 put to a legal expert. I am willing to answer them, but, well, as far as
16 I remember constitution was adopted to the effect that the laws of the
17 SFRJ should be taken over unless they are in collision with the new laws
18 and regulations.
19 Q. That's what I mean.
20 A. Yes, but I'm not a legal expert, so.
21 Q. Yes, of course. Now, do you know that during Ante Markovic's
22 time in former Yugoslavia
23 and a lot of private companies were founded and there was economic
24 expansion, do you know that?
25 A. Well, that's what people were saying.
1 Q. Since you worked for Pliva in Zagreb, do you know that property
2 was transformed into joint stock companies, you are familiar with that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And not being a lawyer, as you say, you cannot say for certain
5 how many privately-owned companies there were in the territory of Banja
6 Luka, and how much property transformation there was, et cetera? I'm
7 saying this for the sake of the transcript, you are not a legal expert
8 and you have no accurate information about the economic structure in
9 Banja Luka at the time about which you are testifying?
10 A. Well, I did say that these -- that my assessment was approximate.
11 Q. Well, the assessment of a layperson; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just like your assessment of the mechanisms with regard to
14 acquiring real property, et cetera?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You may or may not know that in 1992 in the police, the military,
17 the public administration, the health care, there were many non-Serb
18 professionals and experts in high positions, and they were loyal citizens
19 of the Republika Srpska, do you know that?
20 A. Yes, but I don't know their numbers.
21 Q. Well, do you know that at the time and throughout the war -- or,
22 I apologise for this remark, we will deal with this in our Defence case,
23 but I must clarify some things with you here. Do you know that Dr. Ivor
24 Komljenovic a Croat by ethnicity in 1992 and throughout the war was the
25 head of the dialysis ward in the Banja Luka hospital?
1 A. Yes, I think he was.
2 Q. Do you know that one prominent member of the government of the
3 Republika Srpska after the war was Dr. Ivor Komljenovic who was the
4 minister of health?
5 A. Yes, I know.
6 Q. Do you know that in 1992 until the end of June or maybe July 1992
7 Banja Luka was encircled and completely cut off militarily?
8 A. You are referring to the disruption of communication around
10 Q. Yes?
11 A. Yes, I believe I remember.
12 Q. Until mid-1992, Banja Luka was surrounded by Croatian forces in
13 the north; correct?
14 A. Well, if I go into that, I must also remember the -- I must also
15 mention the Knin Krajina --
16 Q. But this isn't a trick question, Witness. Croatian forces were
17 stationed in the north, so normally you couldn't go through Croatia
18 the west there were the forces of the Army of BiH; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In the south, Travnik and what you mentioned, there was also the
21 Army of BiH, but also the forces of the HVO; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The corridor in the east was cut through partly by HVO forces in
24 the Posavina and partly by the forces of the ABiH from Doboj toward Brod;
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Well, then, Banja Luka at that time was totally isolated?
3 A. But as far as I know, there were routes for the supply of oil and
4 medication, et cetera. I don't know whether you are familiar with that.
5 Q. I'm referring to the overall situation.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, sorry, sorry, I wasn't watching. Thank
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, while the witness is coming in, I'd ask
13 if I could raise one matter with you. The next witness, Victim Witness
14 has returned him to his hotel because based on the projections it appears
15 that we won't get to him before the end of the session today. I just
16 wanted to advise you of that in case Your Honours wanted to take the
17 position to tell Mr. Pantelic he had 15 more minutes and Mr. Olmsted has
18 5 minutes then I could call Victim Witness and say bring him back, if
19 that's not the case then we'll just let him stay there and come tomorrow.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 returning to the stand, the Chamber is concerned that the times which
22 have been projected by counsel, in some cases extended times, is not
23 being efficiently and effectively used, and the fact that counsel on any
24 side has been allotted a block of time doesn't mean that that time is to
25 be spent on matters that are obviously irrelevant, and counsel -- with
1 counsel to undertake excursions into matters which are at best of
2 peripheral and tangential importance, and I remind counsel that the
3 Chamber reserves the right notwithstanding the times which have been
4 allotted by previous agreement to bring examination or cross-examination
5 to an end as the case may be in order to move these matters forward as
6 efficiently and effectively and progressively as they should be. Thank
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Krzic, before the break we spoke about Banja Luka being
11 surrounded and about certain aspects of life in Banja Luka itself. Do
12 you agree with me when I say that a huge number of refugees of Serb
13 ethnicity, mostly from Croatia
14 to a significant extent impaired the normal functioning of the city?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Likewise, the presence of a great number of soldiers coming from
17 the front line and some military operations greatly jeopardised the
18 safety of the citizens of Banja Luka which you also mentioned in some
19 statements of yours?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At the same time a military corps was deployed in Banja Luka, it
22 was the 5th JNA Corps and later on it was renamed into the Krajina Corps
23 commanded by General Talic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You are not a military expert and neither am I, but I believe
1 that the strength of that corps was about -- I've just been told about
2 100.000 soldiers?
3 A. Well, I wouldn't go as far as that.
4 Q. Well, if a brigade had from 3- to 5.000, it depends on the number
5 of brigades in the corps. But anyway, we will agree that the Krajina
6 Corps was a respectively military force which was deployed in the Bosnian
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know -- well, it's common knowledge more or less, but do
10 you know that on the 12th of May, the decision of the Presidency of the
11 Republika Srpska was confirmed by the Assembly, and it was a decision
12 about the existence of the imminent threat of war? Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes, I remember, but I'm not sure about the date.
14 Q. At any rate, we will certainly agree based on some information
15 that we have that in this situation the imminent threat of war, the
16 military factor assumes a great importance; isn't that right?
17 A. I suppose it is.
18 Q. That applies to the process of mobilisation, the launching of
19 certain procedures, and with regard to deserters and others so that
20 military courts get a greater significance than in peacetime?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Parts of your evidence, and you mentioned a detail in the
23 marketplace when soldiers were behaving arrogantly toward non-Serb
24 population, provoking people, et cetera, and you also say that soldiers
25 blackmailed the owners of small businesses if they were not Serbs, do you
1 remember saying that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In that period, your personal activity and that of your party was
4 directed toward indicating such incidents and that's why you contacted
5 military officers very often?
6 A. Not very often. There were only two or three such meetings.
7 Q. In that period you also acted as an intermediary trying to
8 influence the resolution of the situation in Kotor Varos. Tell us
9 briefly what kind of activities those were and what made you get
11 A. In Kotor Varos, as opposed to the situation in some other towns
12 where I went sometimes, well, Kotor Varos wasn't a place that I didn't
13 visit. In that latest incident, and we saw relevant document today, I
14 was invited by Mr. Kupresanin immediately after I had met Mr. Galbraith,
15 the US
16 believe I explained my reasons, but here they are anyway. I went there
17 to monitor the surrender of those people who had put up resistance so as
18 not to be slaughtered or taken away some place, if that will suffice.
19 Q. In other words, in the Kotor Varos municipality, there was fierce
20 fighting between Muslim forces and Serb force; correct?
21 A. There were combined Muslim Croat forces fighting Serb forces.
22 Q. Who commanded those Muslim Croat forces, do you know his name?
23 A. That was the first time I met the people who were the leaders of
24 that resistance. That was the in the village of Vecici
25 other people were in charge. I am speaking about three people, should I
1 mention their names?
2 Q. Yes, do give me the name if you know.
3 A. There were three. One was Alagic, I don't know his first name.
4 He was wearing an ABiH uniform, he got killed later, and two others
5 didn't wear uniforms, the name of one was Hilmo or Necko. These are the
6 three people I met, and not only me but also the others who were a member
7 of that delegation.
8 Q. Was Muhamed Sadikovic the commander of that military unit in that
9 zone of Kotor Varos?
10 A. I didn't see or meet him there. I only got to meet him later in
12 Q. I'm merely asking because he is the co-author of your book and he
13 describes the situation in great detail. But let's go on anyway.
14 So you were a mediator in let's call it the safe departure from
15 that territory, of course assisted by the national representatives, so
16 the armed formation of the ABiH left the territory around Kotor Varos?
17 A. It was my task to convince them, and not only me, but also the
18 other members of that group, to convince them to surrender, to persuade
19 them. Whatever I said, I said because I wanted to save human lives. My
20 only role in that was the following: I said I didn't want to know about
21 the military forces, their strength or any other details. I only
22 insisted that international humanitarian organisations and foreign
23 journalists be involved in the surrender, and I believe that's how it
24 took place too.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 interrupt to bring your attention to it's 12.44. You are required to
2 complete your cross-examination by 1.30 at the very latest, and the
3 remaining 15 minutes will be allowed to Mr. Olmsted to re-examine, so to
4 be finished this witness by 1 -- in order to take the adjournment at
6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
7 Q. [Interpretation] We will agree probably, if you remember it, that
8 these military operations in the territory of Kotor Varos lasted until
9 May or June 1992 -- sorry, from May June 1992, until the autumn?
10 A. Well, I was there in October, that being still autumn.
11 Q. At that time you co-operated with and kept in touch with the
12 commander of the Serbian forces, at that time Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko
14 A. That's when I first met him.
15 Q. In these contacts with him, what was your impression about him?
16 Was he a man of authority in his area of responsibility, or was he just a
17 part of the delegation? What would you say?
18 A. Without going into his actual powers in the chain of military
19 hierarchy which I'm not familiar with, I thought, it was my impression,
20 that he was a man of authority.
21 Q. In the context of not Kotor Varos but the broader area, you speak
22 of the attack by "our group Osa" consisting of saboteurs from Croatia
23 which destroyed several aircraft in the area of Mahovljani, do you
24 remember this?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. That's an airfield near Banja Luka, right? Mahovljani.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did this operation really happen?
4 A. It was on the radio, I'm not sure about the television. We had
5 constant blackouts, but there was a report on the radio, and I believe
6 the newspapers wrote about it. It was on Radio Banja Luka.
7 Q. What was this Osa group? Was it an armed unit?
8 A. It was obviously armed. We had not known anything about it until
9 that report, and they were obviously sent from Croatia.
10 Q. Were they arrested later? Did they manage to return to Croatia
11 or were they put on trial in Banja Luka?
12 A. I don't know that any of them were arrested. I don't know of any
14 Q. Compared to the work of the SDA that is relative to the work of
15 the SDA in the area of Bosnian Krajina, you mentioned several times that
16 you met with your colleagues frequently or almost always in Prijedor
17 because the SDA was in power in Prijedor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So that's where you felt safe and you had all the freedom to
20 conduct your party activities? Prijedor was your regional centre, wasn't
22 A. It wasn't.
23 Q. So why did you choose Prijedor for your frequent contact?
24 A. First of all, they were not frequent. I think you can count on
25 the fingers of one hand how many times I was in Prijedor. But sometimes
1 those were meetings of the regional board. You were right, though, that
2 we felt a little safer there, at least you were safe from surveillance by
3 the police in wire-tapping, which was quite uncomfortable. So Prijedor
4 was safer but it wasn't the base of the SDA party.
5 Q. Be that as it may, the materials mention that there were a couple
6 of thousand pieces of weapons in the area of Prijedor and even a light
7 calibre cannon?
8 A. We heard about the same thing, but it could have been propaganda
9 because it was well known that we were coming from Banja Luka and among
10 all the members of the SDA there was a lack of security culture. All of
11 them were laymen who were quite new to politics. Apart from me, very few
12 people had any experience in politics.
13 Q. You personally, apart from the weapon that you mentioned, also
14 owned a Beretta pistol?
15 A. Yes, a licensed pistol.
16 Q. You also had a 9-millimetre pistol?
17 A. I refuse to answer.
18 Q. Well, what difference does it make, Mr. Krzic, whether you had
19 one or not, it's the same thing? I mean, I really don't understand? You
20 intrigue me now, what's the problem with that pistol? Was it perhaps
21 involved in a crime? Did you wound or kill anyone?
22 A. No. I never even fired it. But this Beretta was taken away from
23 me although I had a licence and although I personally was shot at at my
24 door-step and grenades fell as close as 20, 30 metres away from me, and I
25 wanted to have some protection at least to die an honourable death if
1 nothing else without suffering too much at the end.
2 Q. Well, although this is a bit outside of the period of the
3 indictment, but it's still relevant to your situation, you said that when
4 in September 1993 some people from the military arrested you and detained
5 you, some police officers, although it's not certain whether they were
6 real police officers or paramilitary, you said that these police officers
7 regular or irregular saved you from that military detention?
8 A. That's what I was told.
9 Q. They snatched you out of that military prison and took you to
10 some motel?
11 A. I think you confuse the beginning and the end. I thought you
12 were talking about the beginning when I went through all sorts of torture
13 that I described, and I still can't imagine how I managed to survive all
14 that. After all this torture when I was already unconscious, suddenly
15 two men burst into the building of the SUP, nowadays CSB, and dragged me
16 down the stairs because I couldn't walk, hoisted me up on a chair, and
17 whispered in my ear -- no, sorry, I got it wrong. None of them told me
18 anything, but later when I was taken to the suburbs of Banja Luka in that
19 car and when they dragged me out into that low building with all that
20 electronic equipment and computers and radio stations, et cetera, one of
21 them set me in a chair and said, Do you want to have a vodka? I replied,
22 I thought you were going to execute me. And he answered, No, we come
23 from Mr. Karadzic. We are here to save you. That's the whole story.
24 Q. At any rate without going into all that detail, it was obviously
25 a reason why you were under special protection in Banja Luka?
1 A. I haven't found out to this day, although I think the reason lies
2 in my exposure because I was visited by foreign journalists, foreign
3 diplomats, and to this day I can't understand how it is that I stayed
4 alive. I see that as God's will.
5 Q. All this, Mr. Krzic, was going on in September 1993; correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. As an intellectual, you are aware of certain criminal legal
8 aspects and you have also done your military service and you've read
9 literature. You know that there is such a crime as espionage?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Espionage as a crime in wartime under any system becomes an
12 aggravated act as compared to peacetime?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I now wish to ask you, I think it was in 1991 when your son
15 visited -- or rather, served in the military, did his military service
16 Vinkovci and Slavonski Brod?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During his military service, you travelled with your family to
19 visit him, and on your way back you noticed certain movements of JNA
21 A. Those were not JNA units, they were civilians wearing visor caps.
22 Some of them were leather caps, they were rather close so I could see
23 their vehicles.
24 Q. They were members of which units?
25 A. I couldn't know. They showed the three-finger sign which could
1 have been a threat or a sign of support because my car had Banja Luka
2 licence plates. It's difficult to guess.
3 Q. In your evidence you mentioned some place that going back through
5 and informed him of the movement of armoured units based in Zaluzani if
6 I'm not mistaken?
7 A. No, did I not say anything about movement. I just told him these
8 units had received lethal ammunition -- live ammunition, but that was in
9 the context of the previous incident you mentioned.
10 Q. Yes, that was all in the middle of 1991?
11 A. Yes, around that time.
12 Q. And where were the JNA armoured units stationed, the ones you
13 mentioned to your friend in Zagreb
14 A. In Zaluzani.
15 Q. When did you begin your intelligence work in Banja Luka? When
16 did you decide to form this group to collect all sorts of information?
17 A. That happened quite spontaneously. But, in fact, the collection
18 of information started much earlier because the International Red Cross
19 and the high commissioner wanted us to report to them daily what is going
20 on in Banja Luka and we did that. And all these reports that you may or
21 may not have were given verbally or in writing to all the heads of these
22 international organisations. However, when we begin to -- when we began
23 to suspect that these reports that were sent suddenly to their head
24 offices did not end up only in the hands of politicians, we began sending
25 our own reports to all the addresses that we could find. Sometimes we
1 sent them openly. The Serbian authorities deliberately allowed me to
2 keep my telephone and my fax machine, and there was no doubt they were
3 continuing to wire-tap both. And as you rightly say, when I had the
4 report to make where the source was questionable, I sent it in different
5 ways that I don't think I'm going to discuss here.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe it's appropriate time to go into private
7 session, due to the recent answer that we got. Just for a couple of
8 minutes, I think, because he is about to reveal --
9 JUDGE HALL
10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, it's relevant, of course.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MR. PANTELIC: To the case. To the case here that we have.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 that it is. Can you indicate --
15 MR. PANTELIC: I'll move on. I'll move on.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. We'll now look at your statement of 22nd -- 26th through 29th
19 August, 2001.
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, it's 2D06-0463.
21 Q. While we are waiting for this passage from your statement to come
22 up, could you tell me this, I think it's also mentioned in your writings,
23 namely that apart from your associates, there was also your wife in
25 A. Yes, to some extent.
1 Q. Was your son also involved?
2 A. No, certainly not.
3 Q. He was not a member of the BH Army at the time, was he?
4 A. No, and he was not aware of these things. He was in Zagreb
5 Q. I understand. So he did not respond to the mobilisation call-up?
6 A. How is he supposed to answer the mobilisation call-up? He did
7 his military service in the Yugoslav People's Army.
8 Q. Let's look at page 6 of your statement in Bosnian. That's
10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] If we could just see the top of
11 the page. Sorry, scroll down to see the last paragraph.
12 Q. I don't know, Mr. Krzic, should I give you the English version?
13 It's not in dispute that you gave this statement; right?
14 A. What do you want me to look at?
15 Q. The last paragraph. Not to waste time reading it.
16 A. Just tell me, how does it begin?
17 Q. The last paragraph begins with the words:
18 "Throughout my stay in Banja Luka, as long as I was in Banja
19 Luka..." will you just confirm. It says that a simple gist of code words
20 was devised for communication with Smajo Djuzel. For President
21 Izetbegovic this is not a good translation. You used code name Babo or
22 Dido. Bobo doesn't sound right. Babo is logical. Danger was called
23 "heat" in your code language?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You had over 100 code words in your communication with Smajo
1 Djuzel, maybe more?
2 A. It was a very short list of code words, really, because we did
3 not exchange much information, and I did not receive any significant
4 information in this way, apart from some private reports about internal
5 quarrels about -- among those people who stayed down there, no directives
6 or anything of the sort.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Pantelic, you have lost me. I fail to see
8 how this has any relevance to the trial. So please explain to me, make
9 it clear.
10 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, absolutely, I will give the grounds.
11 Your Honour, Mr. Krzic, and we shall show the relevant documents at the
12 end of line of these questions, in accordance with his previous
13 statements and also the part of statement that he gave to OTP, was
14 organiser and chief of network of intelligence group and finally members
15 of these group and Mr. Krzic were persecuted, charged by the indictment
16 of military Prosecutor and finally judgement was delivered.
17 The point here is that we as Defence would like to show that any
18 proceedings against Mr. Krzic or because he is rely about certain events
19 in military and police and, you know, these services, was not arbitrary,
20 number one. All these proceedings were in accordance with valid
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: But that is not disputed. Point one, it's
23 outside the scope of the indictment. Point two, nobody has challenged
24 that Mr. Krzic was subsequently prosecuted and convicted for espionage.
25 This is completely outside the interests to this trial. Unless you do it
1 for the purpose of challenging the credibility of the witness, but in
2 that case, please advise us as to which parts of his testimony in your
3 view are unreliable because of the witness's, in your view, his
5 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. The theory of
6 Prosecution case is that my client is responsible being a member or
7 supporter or aider or abettor of joint criminal enterprise on a larger
8 scale, not including just Bosanska Krajina and elsewhere. Part of the
9 indictment is the -- that he through his omissions to work professionally
10 and also as a form of prosecution, he denied basic rights of non-Serbs in
11 this region through policy, acts you know, aiding and abetting procedure,
12 and what we would like to show here through certain line of questions is
13 that practically there were sufficient grounds for criminal proceedings
14 and also this particular witness, he testified also in order to provoke
15 international reaction, at a certain stage he created non-objective
16 picture of events in Banja Luka and Banja Luka is a part of the
18 So I would like to show through the facts and proofs here,
19 including the criminal proceedings against Mr. Krzic, that the nature of
20 his information which was disseminated and sent out of Banja Luka was of
21 practically non-realistic to the situation and finally, the consequences
22 that our client is facing.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 involve this Chamber going into -- in fact, conducting its own inquiry
25 into the sufficiency or insufficiency of the charges that were laid
1 against this witness? In turn, the farthest that you can go in terms of
2 this trial is challenging, as Judge Harhoff has said, the credibility of
3 this witness, and the Prosecution must be taken as a fact, we needn't go
4 beyond that, because it would be wholly incompetent for this Chamber to
5 be taken down the road where you seem to wish to take us, unless I'm
6 wholly missing something.
7 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I absolutely accept your points. The
8 issue here is that in terms of, as you well mentioned and already pointed
9 out, the credibility of a witness also because to a certain line of
10 questions and events in Banja Luka we got a number of answers from him,
11 and also we, for the record, would like to have a fact that he was
12 charged and he was finally convicted for his acts there.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MR. PANTELIC: I see my colleague.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: In any case, Mr. Pantelic, before Mr. Olmsted
16 replies, if I understand your point correctly, you are saying that the
17 acts for which your client is charged were done partly in response to the
18 misinformation that you hold that this witness was spreading in the
19 relevant period, so if I understand you correctly, you say that this
20 witness was participating in a campaign of misinformation to the outside
21 world about the conditions in Banja Luka and other places, Prijedor, and
22 for that reason the Serbian authorities had to react, and those reactions
23 were justified? Is that your point of view?
24 MR. PANTELIC: No, no, Your Honour. As far as the events in
25 Banja Luka concerned, we -- the position of Defence is the following:
1 Banja Luka was in very specific conditions at this period of time, and as
2 Mr. Krzic affirmed here and confirmed, a flow of refugee came to Banja
3 Luka and security conditions were deteriorated and many incidents
4 occurred, et cetera, et cetera. But the position of the Defence is to
5 show two general things with regard to Banja Luka. Point number 1 is
6 that on political level that we have discussed before, the, I would say,
7 common agreement between ruling parties were to establish a political
8 life, then creation of municipalities, then process of dissolution in
9 Bosnia, et cetera, et cetera. That's one part of the background. The
10 other parties that the theory of the Prosecution is that in pursuing the
11 common purpose and joint criminal enterprise, my client created
12 unbearable conditions for non-Serbs in Banja Luka, denying non-Serbs on
13 fundamental rights, aiding and abetting in certain policies, et cetera,
14 et cetera.
15 So the position of the Defence is the following: We would like
16 to get a particular number of answers from this witness with regard to
17 the conditions in Banja Luka, events in Banja Luka, and ultimately
18 persons in charge or players in Banja Luka. At the same time, at the
19 same time, Your Honours, we are - that's our position - we are free to
20 challenge credibility of this witness because we think that in order
21 to -- to inflate propaganda against Serbs' actions, at least it was an
22 exaggeration in terms of informations which was sent through official and
23 unofficial ways by this witness and his group.
24 And finally, Your Honour, if you allow me, if, and I don't think
25 that that would be a case, if there is not any dispute from the
1 Prosecution side with regard to the fact that Mr. Krzic was criminally
2 charged, indicted, and finally convicted with regard to the criminal
3 charge of espionage against the interest of Republika Srpska, et cetera,
4 which is a part of this military Tribunal judgement, I don't have any
5 problem to put that on the record.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes or no, Mr. Olmsted?
7 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not contest that
8 the witness was charged and convicted of espionage. Just let me make one
9 note though, he was tried in absentia, which raises the issue that Your
10 Honours are raising is how can you go into this trial -- his subtrial and
11 bring it into this trial to be a whole another trial so.
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Right, there we are. Mr. Pantelic, if you are
13 seeking to elicit information from this witness about the conditions in
14 Banja Luka during the period that is covered by the indictment, then get
15 on with it. You have 11 minutes left.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Krzic, for the sake of the
18 transcript, it is not a contentious fact that you were sentenced by the
19 military court in Banja Luka to 20 years in prison for espionage, is that
21 A. Yes, in absentia.
22 Q. And it is also an undisputed fact that you with a group of
23 members of your party engaged in activities to the end of organising
24 armed groups which were supposed to rebel against the Serb authorities in
25 Banja Luka; correct?
1 A. No, that's wrong.
2 Q. But you informed SDA headquarters that at a certain point in
3 time, several thousand members of your armed unit would be ready to put
4 up armed resistance in Banja Luka?
5 A. I've never said anything of the kind. But I did say that if
6 there should be mass slaughter that somebody will probably use a hidden
8 Q. What time are you referring to?
9 A. When 3- or 4.000 people were driven into the Poljokono [phoen]
10 park without any warning, and they were surrounded and the PA systems
11 from police cars -- or from the PA systems from police cars we could hear
12 the worst threats, such as, Turks, you will be killed here. On the same
13 day there were a few killings at that very place. So the people were
14 scared that the massacres from World War II would be repeated.
15 I thought that at that moment, at such a moment, people would
16 react with weapons, but they were on a clearing and probably the Serb
17 authorities couldn't wait for something like that to happen, to
18 retaliate. And the objective probably was to prevent [indiscernible]
19 from coming to Banja Luka. But speaking about espionage, the high
20 commissioner and the International Red Cross were immediately informed of
21 the event and what I'm speaking about was not my idea. They were people
22 who had experience who assessed that this was in fact a plot.
23 Q. All right. But let's go into this issue of the Muslim forces
24 opposing the Serb forces. How many fighters did you have?
25 A. Well, at my direct and indirect disposal, I didn't have any one
2 Q. But you said a minute ago that there were some illegal weapons
3 ready to be used, I'm merely asking you how many fighters armed with
4 those illegal weapons are you talking about?
5 A. Sir, I received information about both the Serb side and the
6 non-Serb side for various sources, but that doesn't mean that I had any
7 leading role in that or I directed things.
8 Q. I'm not claiming that, but I want to hear from you what the
9 strength of that armed unit was?
10 A. I suppose that there were no more than 2.000 pieces of small
11 calibre weapons in the hands of non-Serbs in Banja Luka, and I hasten to
12 add, those were the figures of which I was informed by the Serb
13 authorities, and I thought that they were probably correct. But that
14 number includes hunting weapons too and there must have been hundreds
16 Q. All right. I can accept that as your view, but tell me now,
17 Mr. Krzic, in these final questions, I consulted my client, and you
18 mentioned that you saw Mr. Zupljanin in the Bosna hotel on the occasion
19 of the meeting with Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen. Much time has elapsed, but
20 my client says that he met Vance and Owen but in the office of Mr. Radic
21 and the municipal building, the town hall. That the meeting didn't take
22 place at the Bosna hotel. Do you think that might be right? Would you
23 be willing to correct your statement?
24 A. I received that piece of information from my co-workers. I
25 couldn't be everywhere all the time. I was in a meeting with
1 Mr. Karadzic and Krajisnik and Mr. Brdjanin. I couldn't see everything
2 with my own eyes, but what matters is the press conference, which was
3 public. So the commander of the CSB
4 received a report.
5 Q. Well, Mr. Krzic, this is only for procedural clarification. Do
6 you know that in 1992 in that campaign of uncertainty, feeling insecure
7 with regard to the many members of military units or paramilitary units,
8 do you know that explosive devices were placed under the cars of
9 Mr. Radic; the mayor, a Serb; and Dr. Vukic, a prominent representative
10 of the SDS
11 up, yes or no?
12 A. Just a minute, I know there was explosive placed under someone's
13 car but I don't remember exactly because it's been quite some time. I
14 would have to consult my book. I'm not a living encyclopedia, so I don't
15 know all the details, but I think there were such incidents.
16 Q. Apart from that, Mr. Krzic, in the examination-in-chief, there
17 was discussion about the imposition of a curfew. Do you agree that
18 curfew is a regular measure of safety and security in the situation of
19 imminent threat of war?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Krzic, about the Crisis Staff, we learned that the SDA had
22 its Crisis Staff; right?
23 A. I repeat, yes, it was called that, but its function was something
24 else altogether.
25 Q. I'm not speaking about the function. What matters to me is just
1 the fact that there was an SDA Crisis Staff in Banja Luka and that the
2 president of that Crisis Staff was Asim Jakelic?
3 A. Yes, but only for a few months. It was abolished later.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Before we give the floor to Mr. Olmsted,
6 Mr. Pantelic, I would like to know if you wish to tender the statements
7 of the witness into evidence?
8 MR. PANTELIC: I got the precise answers from him which is not
9 disputed, so I will leave it like that. I mean, this particular -- that
10 is not challenged, everything is consistent in his answers. Just one
11 more question to finish, please.
12 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Krzic, you are probably familiar with
13 the fact that in Banja Luka during that transformation of that National
14 Defence Council from about April 1992 the so-called War Staff of ARK was
15 established. Have you heard about that in your contacts?
16 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember that now. I only remember the Crisis
18 Q. I just wanted to verify that piece of information with you. By
19 way of finishing, I would like to complete the picture. You say that in
20 November 1991, the newspaper "Vecernji List" published a story about the
21 establishment of new municipalities in Majdan and Ivanjska which was
22 organized by the HDZ. Can you tell us now whether there were such
23 activities, is the majority of the population Croatian there?
24 A. I must admit that I was not acquainted with either the boundaries
25 of those future municipalities. I don't remember that at all. Apart or
1 except what you mentioned today about Centar about which I had some
2 information. And I spoke about that here. As for Ivanjska, I cannot
3 tell whether the Croats there would have been a majority or whether their
4 share would have been fifty/fifty. There were some Serbs there, but I
5 don't know whether there were any Muslims.
6 Q. I accept that but for the stake of the transcript let's --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:
11 Q. Mr. Krzic, I only have 15 minutes, so please keep your answers
12 very very brief.
13 Can you tell us what was the function of the SDA Crisis Staff?
14 A. The only function was humanitarian, and I can explain.
15 Q. No need to explain. Now, in your prior testimony, you explained
16 that the non-Serb parties opposed the creation of the community of
17 Bosnian Krajina municipalities also known as ZOBK. Can you tell us from
18 the perspective of the non-Serb parties, how did the creation of ZOBK
19 relate to this concept of a greater Serbian state?
20 A. Well, the most important thing is that in the process of uniting
21 these municipalities, I think there were 22, and there were some people
22 who took part in that who we called them traitors, but 99 per cent of
23 them were Serbian representatives, and representatives of other
24 ethnicities didn't take part in that, and another striking example that
25 the establishment of the ZOBK was conducted without regard to statutory
1 or constitutional or other provisions.
2 Q. Let me pause you there. I want to bring you back on track. My
3 question is how is this Z-o-b-k, ZOBK creation related to the concept of
4 there's going to be one giant Serb controlled state, how did it relate to
5 that or how did it justify your fears in that?
6 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. I mean, it was never
7 raised in cross-examination this concept of greater Serbia state, and
8 this stuff is completely out of the scope of cross-examination. Maybe my
9 learned friend can ask Mr. Krzic what was the process of voting, what was
10 the statutory provisions, but it's pure speculation. I mean, greater
11 state, stuff like that, I mean it's absolutely out of the scope.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, the whole purpose of this line of
13 questioning is relating to this -- the time that the cross-examination --
14 the Defence counsel spent cross-examining on the issue of this newly
15 created Muslim municipalities in Banja Luka and so we need to go back a
16 little bit in time to understand it and put it into context. If the
17 Trial Chamber feels that it's irrelevant, this concept of creating these
18 or this argument that these Muslim municipalities were being created,
19 then perhaps I don't have to pursue this line of questioning, but this is
20 the only witness who can really talk about this that is currently on the
21 Prosecution 65 ter Exhibit list.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 the way that was specifically asked in cross-examination without trying
24 to set any context because we'll never finish.
25 MR. OLMSTED:
1 Q. Were you, Mr. Krzic, were you aware of the decision to create the
2 Autonomous Region of Krajina in September of 1991?
3 A. Yes, of course, we learned about that.
4 Q. Was Banja Luka a member of this newly created ARK?
5 A. Not immediately. Only after 15 days because in the first vote
6 they were unable to push it through.
7 Q. Now, did the SDA and the non-Serb parties participate in the
8 creation of this ARK
9 A. We couldn't participate even if we had wanted to. After the
10 statements given by the highest ranking officials of the SDS, I remember
11 Mr. Kupresanin's statement to the effect that all SAO Krajinas would be
12 united into a great Serbian state up to the border, the border of which
13 will be the line Karlobag, Cijena you know those stories and there was
14 even mention of Djevdjelija. Before the establishment of the ZOBK and in
15 the process, we never gave our support.
16 Q. Now, yesterday you were shown your own statement that was
17 recorded or reported in the "Glas" newspaper. I think it's 1D03-0156.
18 And at the beginning of that statement, you talk about statements made by
19 Radoslav Vukic. Can you tell us what political position Mr. Vukic held
20 around this time-period?
21 A. Mr. Vukic, as far as I know, was a member of the Executive Board
22 of the SDS
23 leader. There was frequent rotation in high positions there. I believe
24 even without Assembly sessions. Then he was a member of the Crisis Staff
25 of Banja Luka on the regional staff and he was member of the Executive
1 Board, I think it was called, of the RBK. And then the director of the
2 medical centre, that is to say all medical services.
3 Q. Were you aware that he was a co-ordinator for the Autonomous
4 Region of Krajina?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, again I don't see how this comes out of
6 the cross-examination, Your Honours.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, this let me have my five minutes.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: First of all, it's a leading question, it's not
9 proper, and I don't believe that Mr. Vukic was at any point part of the
10 cross-examination in that respect. Except his name was mentioned once.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, it ties into again to the same issue.
13 This document was shown to him, if I'm given a little bit of discretion
14 for the next five minutes, I think I'll make it clear.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry again, it's a leading question, and this
17 document pertains only to the creation of these municipalities in the
18 municipality of Banja Luka. And that was the point of the
20 JUDGE HALL
21 came out of cross-examination specifically.
22 MR. OLMSTED:
23 Q. Why did the non-Serb political parties feel it was necessary to
24 form municipalities within Banja Luka that were not Serb dominated?
25 A. In the vein hope that in that way they would be able to survive
1 in that small territory the size of some 5 or 6 square kilometres, that
2 they would be able to preserve their presence and survive. Because what
3 can you achieve if you have power in two municipalities? They are the
4 lowest level of government. What can they do? They can -- they have
5 jurisdiction about demolishing houses, they have jurisdiction over the
6 routes of roads to be built, that's more or less it. Everything else was
7 fictitious. Municipalities have no political influence or responsibility
8 at any higher level.
9 Q. What happened to this initiative to create new municipalities
10 within Banja Luka?
11 A. A meeting was held which was attended by Serbs, Croats, and
12 Bosniaks on an equal footing. And speaking about municipality Stari
13 Grad, the number of representatives in the Assembly, there were 17 Serbs,
14 13 Bosniaks, and 6 Croats, something along those lines. There was a Serb
15 majority, as you can see, but not an absolute majority. And that was the
16 headline in the newspapers too. The municipality of Stari Grad
17 miniature Bosnia
18 have been the beginning of a subsequent procedure. What was required was
19 the approval of the population of the local communities. But then in the
20 next step, the approval of the municipality of Banja Luka was required
21 where the Serbs were the majority. And the following step is this had to
22 be forwarded to the cabinet and then by parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 So except for this initial proclamation, it was embryonic. So it
24 had no effect. And but you can tell by the names of the representatives
25 that all ethnicities took part in that. It was at a time when that
1 terrible nationalism hadn't yet gotten the better.
2 Q. Let me ask you one final question. Were there ever any plans by
3 the non-Serb political parties to implement this initiative through
4 forceful take-over of Banja Luka?
5 A. But, sir, you are Prosecutor, but how can you come up with such a
6 question? It's totally unrelated. There are plenty of arguments to
7 corroborate that, I don't need to go into them.
8 Q. I'm sorry, just please answer the question. Was there any plans
9 by the SDA or the other non-Serb parties to try to push this initiative
10 through using any kind of force? Physical force.
11 A. Before that I must correct you, not only non-Serb political
12 parties participated, there were also multiethnic parties with a Serb
13 domination, such as the SDP
14 reformulate your question, but my answer would be no, there were only
15 verbal attempts.
16 MR. OLMSTED: No further questions, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 assisting the Tribunal. You are now released as a witness, and we wish
19 you a safe journey back to your home. We take the adjournment now to
20 resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in Courtroom I, I believe. Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
25 January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.