1 Thursday, 21 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.21 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
6 IT-08-91-T. The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 Before you close the blinds -- good morning to all. Before I call for
9 the appearances, it would have been obvious to everyone over the past few
10 days that Judge Harhoff has been struggling with the after effects of the
11 flu, and this morning this got the better of him and he is not with us
12 so, therefore, we are reconvened under the provisions of Rule 15 bis.
13 Before we go into closed session to make certain inquiries, I
14 would ask for the appearances, please.
15 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
16 Crispian Smith on behalf of the Prosecution.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
18 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan, who will be entering the court
19 any minute now, appearing for Stanisic Defence. Thank you.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
21 Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 MS. KORNER: I was just going to say, Your Honour, if we could go
24 into closed session to deal with protective measures.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 [Closed session]
11 Pages 5250-5252 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 WITNESS: WITNESS ST-172
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Ms. Korner:
7 Q. Sir, to begin with, can I ask you to have a look, please, at a
8 sheet of paper and confirm that your name is shown on it with pseudonym
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that then be produced as an
13 JUDGE HALL
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, as Exhibit P471 under seal.
15 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honours, can we briefly go into
16 private session while I deal with the witness's background.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 5254-5255 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 session, something that I neglected to do earlier, and that is to explain
14 to the witness that you will be referred to as Witness or by number 172.
15 The other thing I should point out to you not having given evidence
16 before the Tribunal previously, the procedure is that you will be asked
17 questions by the side that's calling you, in this case the Prosecution,
18 then you will be -- there will be an opportunity for cross-examination by
19 counsel for each of the accused, then re-examination by the Prosecution
20 and the Chamber may have questions of you. It is anticipated that your
21 testimony will extend into tomorrow. Yes.
22 Thank you, Ms. Korner.
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. Just on that matter, in fact, I think you've already had an
25 opportunity to meet Mr. Krgovic, counsel for Mr. Zupljanin; is that
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. All right. Sir, I want to ask you, please, a little bit about
4 Manjaca camp itself. I think it was originally established in 1991 to
5 hold prisoners of war from the Croatian conflict; is that right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And I want to ask you now, please, a little bit about the layout
8 of the camp and show you a short clip from a video as well. Can you
9 first of all, please have a look at what has been marked, I hope, 3440.
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I explain, this document, it will
11 come in formally through another witness. It's part of a package for
12 another witness. So it's not on our 65 ter list because it's part of the
13 general package, but that's when it will be formally exhibited.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, is it on your list of documents for
16 MS. KORNER: It is, if you look at the last page.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: What is the number?
18 MS. KORNER: 3440.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
20 MS. KORNER: And there's an English translation of the writing
21 below. Is it possible to have the two side by side. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, sir -- thank you very much.
23 You had an opportunity to look at this diagram I think a couple
24 of days ago. Do you agree that it's a pretty accurate depiction of what
25 the camp was like when you were there?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what has been marked on it, we can see, I don't think we need
3 to go through it, what the various buildings were, and also where the
4 guards were stationed.
5 Does the dotted, the sort of barbed wire line, does that mark the
6 perimeter of the camp?
7 A. Yes, the outside perimeter of the camp which is the area where
8 the prisoners were housed.
9 Q. And can you now look, please.
10 MS. KORNER: This one was added in, Your Honours, I think the day
11 before yesterday. 10234. Your Honour, I suppose that diagram ought to
12 be marked for identification. As I say, it will come in as part of a 65
13 ter package -- 92 ter package.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P472 marked for identification, Your
17 MS. KORNER: And now can we have up -- what did I say? Yes.
18 Q. Again, this is a document that you had a chance to see yesterday
19 or the day before yesterday. These photographs, can I just say, were
20 taken in 2001, but as far as you are concerned, are those photographs
21 that were taken some nine years later pretty much depict what it was like
22 in 1992?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Now, marked on this map, first of all, is Kljuc, which we can see
25 to the left of where Manjaca was. Can you tell us, sir, roughly the
1 distance between Kljuc, the town of Kljuc
2 A. Around 20 kilometres.
3 Q. Whilst we are on that, were you ever aware of an incident where
4 prisoners being brought to Manjaca had to walk from Kljuc?
5 A. I was aware of that, but I didn't see it myself, because I was
6 absent that day or those few days from Manjaca, (redacted)
8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honours, can we have that redacted
9 please, on the public session?
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. Sir, can I just remind you that when we are in open session, if
13 you could avoid explaining who was whom.
14 Can you tell us what time of year, it was?
15 A. July 1992.
16 Q. And what, can you remember, I know it's a long time ago now, but
17 can you remember what the weather was like that summer, in July?
18 A. Generally speaking that summer was rather to the advantage of the
19 prisoners. It was hot and there was no snow until the closure of the
21 Q. And who brought the prisoners there who had to walk?
24 Q. I didn't mean a name.
25 A. -- they were brought by police officers from Kljuc.
1 Q. And what, as you understand it, was the explanation for why these
2 prisoners were made to walk from Kljuc to Manjaca?
3 A. From what I know and the explanations that I had, there were no
4 vehicles available and the distance was not too great, and that's how
5 they decided to walk them from Kljuc. There were no motor vehicles to
6 transfer them, that's the explanation I got.
7 Q. All right. And second question before we put this map away is,
8 Manjaca to Banja Luka, how long -- what was the distance there?
9 A. Maybe I'll say something different to what I said before, but
10 it's around 35 kilometres.
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. Thank you very much. Your Honours, may that
12 be admitted, please.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P473, Your Honour.
15 MS. KORNER:
16 Q. And finally, can I ask you to look, please, at a short clip of a
17 video that was also made in 2001, because that puts it really into
18 perspective, the various pictures. We may stop it every now and again so
19 that you can just tell us what we are looking at.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MS. KORNER: Can we pause.
22 Q. What do we see here?
23 A. That's a building within the camp.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. It was a workshop of some kind.
1 MS. KORNER: All right. Let's just go on.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MS. KORNER: Again can we pause.
4 Q. What is that?
5 A. Those are the offices and an area where the -- where the military
6 police was housed and the camp commander as well. So they were offices
8 Q. Just pause it -- while we are still paused, who was the camp
9 commander when you were there?
10 A. Bozidar Popovic.
11 MS. KORNER: Fine. Let's carry on.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MS. KORNER: Pause, please.
14 Q. What's that?
15 A. Those were workshops again which used to belong to that farm, and
16 they had an infirmary there too where the prisoners were examined in one
17 of those facilities. I think it was the last door actually in the row,
18 so it was an infirmary. And a warehouse too.
19 Q. And I suppose we should say that originally Manjaca was a farm,
20 still is a farm; is that right? You have to say yes.
21 A. Yes, that's right. It was a farm called Karadjordjevo they had
22 sheep, they did sheep farming, livestock, cows, and even horses, and
23 there were potatoes were grown, wheat corn, well, not wheat, it's too
24 high up for that but anyway.
25 MS. KORNER: All right, can we -- yes, can we just move on on the
1 video, please.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MS. KORNER: Pause there, please.
4 Q. Is that one of the watchtowers?
5 A. Yes, it is. That is the only watchtower, I think, that existed.
6 We built it when the camp came into existence.
7 MS. KORNER: Carry on.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. I think this is fairly obvious because we've seen the
11 photographs, is this one of the sheds in which prisoners were kept?
12 A. That's right. That is one of the sheds, and when the farm was in
13 existence, cattle were kept there, but since they were left empty and
14 there was the need to accommodate the detainees, then that's where they
15 were accommodated. We called them pavilions. The prisoners were in six
16 rows, so looking at the screen to the right, two rows of prisoners were
17 there, and then there was this high -- platform higher up, two rows there
18 and two rows to the left. And each pavilion could take 6- to 700
19 prisoners and there were six of those pavilions housing the prisoners.
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you, sir. All right, if we move on.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MS. KORNER: Pause.
23 Q. We can see there some sort of open structure, as it were. What
24 was that used for?
25 A. Yes, this open structure, I think there were two of them, and
1 that's where the prisoners had their meals. The food was cooked there,
2 and they had their meals there under that shelter.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Move on again.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MS. KORNER: What are we -- can we just pause again.
6 Q. What are we going into here?
11 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honours, we are going to have to
12 redact what he said about what he was doing.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MS. KORNER: Yes.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. And finally, there, can you just very briefly explain, it's
18 obviously a church, but what significance it has?
19 A. This is a church in the village of Sljivno
20 distance of 2 kilometres away from where the prisoners were. The church
21 had been destroyed quite a lot and the walls, the outer walls were left
22 standing, and with respect to the people in the camp and some plans to
23 complete the church, the corps commander ordered that the prisoners be
24 involved in some of the construction work on the church. And so masons
25 were found and so on and we saw to the windows and covered the church so
1 it was reconstructed in 1992 while the prisoners were there by the
2 prisoners or in part by the prisoners. It was repaired by them.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you very much. That's all we need to
4 ask. Your Honours, may I ask that that video clip -- video be admitted
5 as -- it's on our 65 ter list, 2314.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm sorry for interruption, can we have the date
8 when this video was taken?
9 MS. KORNER: We can probably find out, but I think it's June
10 2001 -- it's 2001 definitely, we'll give you the exact date.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P474.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, may I ask two just small questions to
13 the witness.
14 MS. KORNER: Certainly.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, you said the camp was set up as a
16 prisoners of war camp from prisoners of war from Croatia. Mr. Popovic,
17 was he the camp commander right from the beginning?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. As to that time when the
19 prisoners from Croatia
20 was I physically there at that time. I just know the origins of the
21 camp, how the camp came into being in the first place.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: And Mr. Popovic, what was his -- where did he
23 come from? Was he someone from the military, or was he camp commander
24 from his previous profession as well?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Popovic was an officer of the
1 JNA, and then the Army of Republika Srpska and as such he was appointed
2 camp commander sometime around the 15th of June 1992, so a little before
3 I arrived or when I arrived there.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Welcome.
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. I think it's right, isn't it, that in fact he was a retired
8 officer who had been brought back? Do you know that? If not, say so.
9 A. I think so, yes. I think he had retired but he was re-activated
10 because of the war, like many others. Because a military conscript does
11 not cease to be a conscript when he retires. I mean, their
12 responsibility doesn't cease, but it ceases when they reach a certain
14 Q. Fine. Now, I want to deal just briefly with who was guarding the
15 prisoners in the camp. Were the majority of the guards drawn from the
16 military police?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But was there also involvement by civilian police officers?
19 A. Yes. Yes, that's right, but for a limited time. Sometime in
20 June when the need arose because there was a shortage of personnel in the
21 military police, then through the corps command an order was given that
22 the public security stations of Kljuc, Sanski Most, and I don't know
23 which other police stations should make up a schedule and send part of
24 their forces, 20 to 30 policemen in actual fact, as reinforcement for the
25 external security of the camp, the perimeter of the camp. So that was
1 done in July/August at the outset, as the last date, July and August.
2 Q. The civilian police, you say, were reinforcement for the external
3 security of the camp, the perimeter. Was there anything in the
4 regulations about whether they could enter the camp itself?
5 A. There was an internal regulation issued by the camp commander
6 which stated that the civilian police providing external security cannot
7 enter the camp, not even the military police could enter the camp itself,
8 unless there was a need for some kind of intervention, so only some
9 forces were able to enter the camp without weapons. That is to say,
10 within the wire fence that we were looking at earlier.
11 Q. And which were the forces that were allowed to come within the
13 A. The military police commander would set up a schedule, a duty
14 roster, for his men for special interventions or whatever they were
15 called, I can't remember quite now, but anyway, there was a -- the
16 intervention patrol was the only one allowed to enter the camp if some
17 situation had to be resolved or if there was some threat or something
18 like that.
19 Q. The civilian police that were there, were they ever used to do
20 duty in the observation tower?
21 A. I can't remember that. I'm not quite sure.
22 Q. Now, those are what the regulations said. Are you able to say
23 one way or another whether military police and/or civilian -- it's two
24 questions -- first of all, whether military police entered into the
25 perimeter of the camp when they were not supposed to?
1 A. I'm not quite sure. I don't think I can answer that because I
2 actually don't know.
3 Q. What about civilian police, are you able to say one way or
4 another whether, in breach of regulations, they entered within the
6 A. According to my information that did not happen.
7 Q. Whilst we are dealing with the civilian police, whilst they were
8 on duty at the camp, whether from Kljuc or Sanski Most or wherever, under
9 whose authority would they come?
10 A. I said a moment ago that on the basis of a corps command order
11 and the public security centre, there was an agreement made, I don't know
12 when and where but it was at that level generally, the corps commander
13 and the public security centre on that level, it was decided that the
14 public security stations or police stations of Kljuc, Sanski Most, should
15 send a number of men according to their schedule and roster, and they
16 would come in and that was resubordination on the basis of
17 resubordination. As soon as they arrived at Manjaca, they were under the
18 corps command or camp command, or rather the army. They were
19 resubordinated to them.
20 Q. So if, for example, a civilian police officer committed, first of
21 all, a disciplinary offence, who would deal with it?
22 A. The camp commander mostly, since it was a disciplinary offence,
23 and he might inform the chief of the public security station as his --
24 the man superior that that happened. But generally in the camp because
25 he was resubordinated to the camp command, so everything that happened
1 within the camp came under the camp commander's responsibility, and he
2 dealt with any issues.
3 Q. If the civilian police officer committed an actual crime, in
4 other words, for example, assaulted a prisoner, would it still be the
5 camp commander who dealt with him?
6 A. Well, you would have to look at the nature of the crime
7 committed, whether it was a crime or an infraction or what, but if it
8 came under the responsibility of the camp commander, then he would deal
9 with it. But if it was a crime and there was -- and serious bodily harm
10 was caused as a result of the assault, then that would be up to the
11 military court and military court judge, an investigation would be
12 conducted, as was the case in the actual matter we are going to deal with
13 in due course, I believe.
14 Q. Yes, are you referring to the Filipovic and Bender killings?
15 A. That's right, yes.
16 Q. If it was a crime and the military court judge would be brought
17 in, would the facts be made known to the chief of the whichever SJB the
18 officer came from?
19 A. Certainly, and that is logical. His superior would be informed
20 about what had happened and the military court would take it further and
21 initiate proceedings.
22 Q. Now, are you personally aware of any instances, leaving aside the
23 Filipovic/Bender killings, where a civilian police officer was
24 disciplined by the camp commander?
25 A. No, no, I don't know of any such case. I'm not aware of a case
1 like that.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't know, as we started late, are
3 we going -- we are going on, are we?
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please, microphone.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 It's 10.19 but I do intend to stick with the schedule so working backward
8 from the time at which we must rise at 1.45, so we'll break at 10.25.
9 MS. KORNER: In that case, can we go into private session for the
10 next few minutes while I just deal with some other matters.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 5270-5274 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Sir, can I ask you now, please, when a -- when prisoners arrived
10 at the camp by and large who brought them to the camp?
11 A. For the most part in the greatest number of cases they were
12 brought by members of the Ministry of the Interior, the police or
13 milicija as we called them then.
14 Q. And when the prisoners in -- were brought into the camp, who
15 would deal with them first of all?
16 A. As they came into the camp itself, is that what you are asking?
17 Q. Yes, when they were brought in, what procedure was followed in
18 respect of the prisoner?
19 A. All right, I understand. You are asking me about the procedure
20 of admittance. Once the prisoners were brought, we had already developed
21 a certain procedure of admittance, and they would be first received by a
22 commission. On that commission there were two policemen, one doctor, one
23 person keeping records, and one representative of the security organ,
24 (redacted). That was the commission receiving prisoners upon
25 their arrival.
1 We thought it most appropriate to take people in in groups of
2 ten, and that was suitable to the size of the room. They would lean
3 against the wall. They would be inspected by a policeman, stripped,
4 checked by a doctor for any visible injuries. The secretary would take
5 down the name of the prisoner either from his own words or from the
6 documents he had on him, and all this was monitored by one of my men.
7 The secretary would write the information in the book of records of
8 prisoners and in the medical record. That was it.
9 MS. KORNER: Can we just please redact the words at line 18
10 before it goes out to the public, "(redacted)" Thank you.
11 Q. Right. Can I ask you now about the doctor that you've mentioned.
12 Would that be a doctor, a military doctor or someone who was a prisoner?
13 A. The doctors were from the ranks of prisoners, Eniz Sabanovic and
14 Derviskadic, Mehmed Derviskadic. They were also prisoners but they were
15 professional doctors and they were very good at their work and very
16 disciplined, and on behalf of our medical service, there was a nurse,
17 Aleksandar Bijelic.
18 Q. The paperwork you told us that was sometimes not available, were
19 there any times when prisoners were admitted without any kind of paper,
20 in other words, an identification card or anything at all?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what was the status of these prisoners? In other words,
23 what -- this was a military camp, what were these prisoners supposed to
25 A. We did not make any distinction in that respect. It was all the
2 Q. Yes, I understand that. But we'll see in various documents they
3 are described as POWs or prisoners of war. What was your understanding
4 of what a prisoner of war was?
5 A. I can only give you the textbook definition. A person of the
6 opposite warring party trained, uniformed, captured on the frontline.
7 That's what I understand to be a prisoner of war.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. I think this is right, isn't it, that you had
9 training in the conventions which govern the treatment of such prisoners?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I want to move, please, first of all to the documents. Can
12 you have a look, please, first of all at P60.12.
13 MS. KORNER: And I'd like to go, please, in the English to the
14 third page and in the B/C/S to the fourth page, I believe. No, it's
15 typed, in the B/C/S, please, it's maybe the fifth. That's it, right.
16 Thank you.
17 Q. This is a list which I don't believe, sir, you saw -- you'd seen
18 before you looked at it here because it comes from the Sanski Most police
19 station, but it's headed "List of the Most Radical Extremists in the Area
20 of Sanski Most." And the person shown at number 4 is a gentleman by the
21 same of Eniz Sabanovic. Is that the doctor you were talking about?
22 A. I think so. The first and last names are the same.
23 Q. Presumably over the period that he was in the camp you had a
24 number of dealings with him, did you?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Was there anything about his conversations or anything about what
2 you learned about him to suggest that he was, as described, the most
3 radical -- one of the most radical extremists?
4 A. Not that I could see.
5 Q. Next could you have a look, please, at document P61.2.
6 Sir, this is -- at the top I think it's got written "assistant
7 commander for moral guidance. Deliver to the warden of the Manjaca camp,
8 personally inspect how prisoners of war are being treated." It's
9 actually a document that was signed by Mladic and deals with what is
10 called "Accommodation for the Prisoners of War and the Principles." It's
11 dated the 15th of June, which is the day you arrived, but were you made
12 aware of the contents of this order?
13 A. No, I had not seen this document.
14 Q. No, I appreciate you weren't shown the document, but were you
15 made aware that General Mladic had issued this instruction about the
16 treatment of the prisoners of Manjaca?
17 A. Yes, it was done several times both by the corps command and the
18 Main Staff.
19 Q. Right.
20 MS. KORNER: Next could we have a look, please, at document 65
21 ter 456. Sorry, we need to go in the English to the second page and in
22 the B/C/S to the third page, I think it is. It should be paragraph 5 in
23 each case.
24 Q. Again, sir, I don't think you ever saw this document because it's
25 a report to the 1st Krajina -- by the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main
1 Staff. But paragraph 5 dealing with security situations says:
2 "About 900 prisoners of war from Stari Gradiska have been moved
3 to Manjaca."
4 First, were you aware of this?
5 A. When I arrived at Manjaca, those people were already there and
6 from the course of events I knew they had been brought from Stari
7 Gradiska because that place was in the Republic of Croatia
8 to the Vance Owen Plan all members of the army and the army in general
9 had to leave Croatia
10 Stari Gradiska prison, they were relegated following orders from the
11 corps command to another sector, that is Manjaca.
12 Q. And just tell us, who were the prisoners? What nationality were
13 the prisoners from Stari Gradiska, by and large?
14 A. The prisoners were mostly of Muslim ethnicity, there were a few
15 Croats, and perhaps a few Serbs were there.
16 Q. And the Serbs who were there, what had they been in prison for in
17 Stari Gradiska? What sort of crimes?
18 A. I'm not trying to say that there were Serbs from Stari Gradiska,
19 but at Manjaca in general when I was trying to produce some sort of
20 statistics, I found there were five Serbs. I remember specifically one
21 man named Medic who was captured as a member of the Croatian units in
23 Croatian Armed Forces, and he was captured in Slavonia and ended up in
24 Stari Gradiska and then Manjaca. And there may have been a few other
1 Q. And can you just give us roughly, you say mostly the prisoners
2 were of Muslim ethnicity, were you able to ascertain from the paperwork
3 that came with them, what crimes they were alleged to have committed?
4 A. Are you asking about only those from Stari Gradiska?
5 Q. No, I'm just asking about Stari Gradiska, yes.
6 A. Yes, in Stari Gradiska, the camp or the prison, there was a large
7 group of Muslims from the Grapska village, around 300 of them, and they
8 arrived at Manjaca. The charges were the same, the circumstances were
9 the same as with other prisoners. They had been found carrying weapons
10 or on the front line. The charges were similar to those against other
12 Q. Yes, thank you very much.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, this document is on our 65 ter list, I
14 wonder if that could be admitted.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P475, Your Honours.
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Next could we have a look at 65 ter
19 Q. This is a document originating from Kljuc SJB, and it's a list of
20 those who were members of the Territorial Defence, and what I want to ask
21 you about is firstly this: Vinko Kondic, a chief of Kljuc, SJB signed
22 this, did you see him ever at Manjaca?
23 A. Yes, once.
24 Q. And what did he come to the camp for?
25 A. At the invitation of Colonel Stevilovic. They had a problem to
1 solve and I saw the two of them together, and I was present during their
2 conversation. That's when I met the man and never saw him again.
3 Q. I don't want to spend too much time on what the problem was, but
4 what did it concern, the problem?
5 A. It was precisely about the documentation. They tried to reach an
6 agreement, that is Stevilovic told Kondic not to send any more people
7 without documentation.
8 Q. And the handwritten part of the document shows that detainees
9 were admitted by Sergeant Milorad Topic. Who was Sergeant Milorad Topic?
10 A. He was some sort of secretary keeping records at the camp, part
11 of the military police, and I think he is mentioned in connection with
12 the Filipovic murder.
13 Q. Can you tell us what happened to Sergeant Milorad Topic in
14 respect to the Filipovic murder?
15 A. The same as others who were involved. They were suspended
16 immediately, dismissed from their duty, an on-site investigation team
17 headed by an investigating judge was invited to conduct an autopsy with
18 the help of a doctor, and they were sent away and turned over to the
19 jurisdiction of the competent court.
20 Q. And when were these member -- these people tried?
21 A. Those people were tried, the killers of Filipovic and Bender, in
22 2007, (redacted)
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Can we redact those last words, please.
24 Your Honours, may that document be admitted.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P476, Your Honour.
2 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, the next document is one of
3 the witness's documents. Can it not, therefore, go up on the screen.
4 Yes, can you -- could we have up on the screen for us though, not the
5 screen for the public, please, document number 2462.
6 Q. Sir, is this one of the reports that you were talking about that
7 you sent to your superiors?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And we can see your initials at the second page, but we needn't
10 bother with that for the moment. It begins, dated the 22nd of June and
12 "During the day we processed a group of prisoners older than 60
13 and a group younger than 18 in order to release these individuals..."
14 What was the relevance of the over 60 and under 18?
15 A. Well, we followed on from some sort of logic of military
16 responsibility and duty, and a person from 18 to 60 by law, the law of
17 the day, was considered to have a military duty. And if there was no
18 other incrimination to the effect that that person had committed some
19 offence or crime or war crime because anybody can commit a war crime of
20 course, but if that wasn't there then we considered that those people
21 should be released from the camp or that we should take steps to have
22 them released.
23 Q. Right. Then can we go to the third paragraph, please, where you
24 talk about an interview that was conducted with Mr. Hadzic, and the
25 report says: "It has been established that he came to Manjaca by
1 mistake." What did you words "by mistake" mean?
2 A. It means that the organ that brought him in provided us with
3 information which said that he was -- that he had actually been taken to
4 Manjaca by mistake.
5 Q. They told you that, the people who brought him in? The police
6 officers who brought him in?
7 A. Either the police officers who brought him in, but I doubt that
8 this was uncovered straightaway, but some document must have arrived
9 subsequently from the police station, or there might have been some
10 intervention on somebody's part to that effect.
11 Q. And the rest of the document talks about your interview with the
12 late Filipovic; is that right?
13 A. That's right, yes.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted?
16 JUDGE HALL
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P477 under seal, Your Honour.
18 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Next could you have a look, please, at
19 the document which is at -- yes, 65 ter 810.
20 Q. This is a document emanating from Vinko Kondic again to the
21 command of the prisoner of war camp as agreed between Colonel Stevilovic
22 and the chief of the Kljuc SJB, inspectors Todo Gajic and Dmitar Buvac
23 are sent to process the prisoners of war. Was this as a result of the
24 discussion which Colonel Stevilovic had with Inspector Kondic? You have
25 to say yes or no.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you meet inspector Gajic and the other gentleman at all
3 while they were there?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And as you've told us, when they question prisoners, there
6 wouldn't have been any member present of the intelligence service?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honours, may that be marked -- admitted
10 and marked.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P478, Your Honours.
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the next document is 65 ter 10224, and
14 I tell Your Honours straightaway, for some reason this did not
15 materialise on to our 65 ter list, but it's another report from this
16 witness and, therefore, I'd ask it not be put up on the screen.
17 Q. It's dated the 26th of June, sir, and is that right, it's one of
18 your reports?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What you are dealing with for a large part, is this right, is in
21 paragraph 3, the fact that there are sources amongst the prisoners,
22 people who are providing information?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And then in the fourth paragraph, 46 prisoners have been received
25 from Bosanska Dubica, and it appears they've been processed already by
1 the SJB, and it says they were brought to Manjaca camp only for
2 accommodation and guarding purposes. What does that mean?
3 A. That means that they would be there until they could be put up by
4 the investigating centre of the military court in Banja Luka.
5 Q. And why would they be kept in Manjaca which is a military
6 prisoner of war camp rather than in Bosanska Dubica?
7 A. I think, I can only say what I think and make logical conclusions
8 while they were there, I suppose, because of the space available or not.
9 But I can't really say.
10 Q. All right. And then over on the second page of the English, I
11 think it's all on one page on the B/C/S, there are by June already --
12 26th of June, 1.548 prisoners of war.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes, now, Your Honours, I know that the rule is it's
14 not on our 65 ter, can't have it admitted. But, Your Honour, this is so
15 obviously a relevant document, and I'm afraid when one is going through
16 it, these slip through the net sometimes, so I'm asking to have it
17 admitted and exhibited.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MR. KRGOVIC: No objection, Your Honour.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: No objection for us.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P479, under seal, Your Honour.
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Then could we have 65 ter 2427. Again
24 if we can not have that put on the public screen.
25 Q. Another report, in fact the following day, with your initials,
1 which talks about 39 new prisoners from Sanski Most. Sanski Most
2 inspectors are going to come back to continue the processing. 103 from
3 Kljuc, two people from Sanski Most who have helped out are going to be
4 released, and now the next day we jump from -- because of the new
5 prisoners from 1.568 to 1.700 prisoners; is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, I don't want to spend any more
8 time on that. Could that be admitted and marked, please.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P480, perhaps under seal, Ms. Korner?
11 MS. KORNER: Yes, all these documents under seal, please. I'm
12 sorry, I should make that clear.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be under seal, Your Honours.
14 MS. KORNER: Next document, please, number 10225. Your Honours,
15 not on our 65 ter but it's going to come in as part of a 92 ter package
16 so this can just be marked for identification. Could we go to the second
17 page in each case, I think it is. And can we just for a moment go into
18 private session, please. Just for one question.
19 [Private session]
11 Page 5287 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now in open session.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P482 under seal.
17 MS. KORNER:
18 Q. Another report dated the 1st of July, and in the middle, can we
19 go down the page a bit. The words:
20 "According to the updated records, there is 1.000 -- over --
21 well, nearly, in fact, 1.100 prisoners from Kljuc. 229 from Doboj, 268
22 from Sanski Most, 34 from Prijedor" and so on and so forth. And then
23 more than 95 per cent of these prisoners are Muslims.
24 MS. KORNER: And then if we go over the page in English, but I
25 believe it's all one page in B/C/S.
1 Q. The report says:
2 "We are suggesting considering releasing all prisoners older than
3 60 and all minors up to 18 years of age, as well as seriously sick
4 people, if they did not commit war crimes."
5 Now that's the second time we've had this reference to releasing.
6 The first report was about a fortnight before that. Had anything been
7 done about the suggestion that the over 60 and under 18 should be
8 released? In other words, had anything happened?
9 A. Since the previous report to this one, of course nothing
10 happened. We did make the proposals, and we'll be coming across later
11 reports where this is touched upon as a problem and dealt with in the
12 reports, but I thought that it might not be that easy to accomplish with
13 the chain of command and so on while it goes to the powers that be and is
14 sent back, so I wasn't expecting an immediate reaction anyway.
15 Q. But you thought it was worth repeating the suggestion?
16 A. Certainly, certainly that's what I considered. And I did repeat
17 it, and you will find it five or six times. The problem was raised again
18 five or six times subsequently.
19 MS. KORNER: All right. Thank you. Could we now, please, have a
20 look at the document which is 10227. It's not on our 65 ter list and
21 only I'm going to ask that it's marked for identification at the moment.
22 But again I'm going to ask -- sorry, we better do this in private
23 session. Sorry, Your Honour.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 5290 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. It's one of your reports, sir, 4th of July, and by then the
7 prisoner count has risen to 1.870 people. That's in the paragraph there.
8 And again, sir, as you say, the suggestion is being made that the over
9 60s and the younger than 18 should be released, so nothing happened by
10 the 4th of July either; is that right?
11 A. That's right, yes. Nothing happened. None of the measures
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Could that be admitted and
14 marked, please.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P484 under seal, Your Honours.
17 MS. KORNER: 2468, please, next document. Same thing, under
18 seal, please.
19 Q. Right. This is the 5th of July. You are dealing with the 268
20 prisoners of war from Sanski Most, and you say that sufficient paperwork
21 to submit criminal reports against the individual who merit to have
22 criminal reports which will be done by the authorised officials from the
23 SJB Sanski Most. So was it the job of the authorised officials', as they
24 are described, from the SJBs responsibility to file criminal reports?
25 A. That's right, that was their job.
1 Q. And yet again you say that the Sanski Most SJB being given the
2 individuals older than 60 and younger than 18 in order to discuss the
3 possibility of their returning to their place of residence, and the sick.
4 So again you are repeating what you said, as we can see, over and over
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,
7 please. That was on our 65 ter.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is it on your --
9 MS. KORNER: Is it on our 65 ter list.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't see it on your list of documents for use
11 with 172?
12 MS. KORNER: It's the top of the second page, 2468.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm not in pages. 468, isn't it?
14 MS. KORNER: 2468.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: 2468, okay. On the record is 468.
16 MS. KORNER: I didn't catch that. It's 24.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P485 [Microphone not activated]
20 MS. KORNER: Next can we move to 65 ter 1592 again please under
21 seal and not to be put on the screen.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, for the record, the previous one,
23 I suppose it's under seal as well, but it's not mentioned in the record.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour, that will be under
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. This is your report three days after the last and you say this in
4 the middle of the first paragraph:
5 "It is characteristic, as was the case with previously processed
6 prisoners, that a large majority of prisoners brought to Manjaca POW camp
7 had no weapons, nor were they actively participated in the organisation
8 of the implementation of the armed rebellion. This makes it -- this fact
9 makes it difficult to collect and compile documentation on criminal acts
10 necessary for the functioning of illegal activities."
11 That's what you wrote, sir. Was that your opinion in July of
13 A. That's correct. That's how it was.
14 Q. Then you go on to deal with this incident:
15 "In the course of 7th July 1992, 560 prisoners from Sanski Most
16 were admitted to Manjaca camp. During transport from Sanski Most to
17 Manjaca, 24 prisoners died. The most probable cause was lack of oxygen
18 as they were transported in refrigerator trucks. Such conduct on the
19 part of the organs from Sanski Most is extremely inhumane and
20 unprofessional. The people who died were not admitted, and they are not
21 considered to have been POWs in Manjaca. The mistakes that were noticed
22 earlier, such as bringing in people younger than 18 and older than 60,
23 still continue."
24 Now, were you present the day before you wrote this when these
25 prisoners arrived with these dead people?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was there when they were brought? Who had brought them in?
3 A. Police officers from Sanski Most.
4 Q. And what was their attitude, if you can recall, as to the fact
5 that 24 people had died?
6 A. Well, I can't recall individual reactions, but I personally was
7 astounded because among the people who were standing up like -- packed
8 like sardines. It was not in fact a refrigerator truck, it was a truck
9 covered with tarpaulin, but the trailer part is connected to the camp,
10 and some people were already old and infirm or had health problems and
11 that contributed to their death. But in any case, 24 persons were taken
12 out of the truck dead and they could not be re-animated.
13 Q. You refused, not surprisingly, one can say, to take in the dead
14 bodies. Do you know what happened to them?
15 A. We admitted only living people, so the bodies were returned,
16 although I have no proof of it, by the same trailer truck to Sanski Most,
17 I hope.
18 Q. All right. And then finally on this document, you talk about the
19 death of someone from Kljuc who died of natural causes and that Manjaca
20 camp was visited by presidents of the municipal district and military
21 courts in Banja Luka. I think that's all we need on that report.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that please be admitted and marked.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 MS. KORNER: Under seal, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P486 under seal, Your Honours.
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you. And can we look, please, at the next
2 document which is 2428 on our 65 ter. Again it's a report, so I'd ask
3 that it be admitted and marked under seal. And not shown on the public
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MS. KORNER:
7 Q. You again talk about the problems relating to these prisoners
8 "relating to the reception of the new prisoners, especially from the
9 municipalities Kljuc and Sanski Most, as they are being brought in
10 massively, in large quantities no selection is being made. They are
11 bringing those who shouldn't be treated as prisoner of war because they
12 are being picked up from their homes and off their fields. Individuals
13 older than 60, younger than 18, no attention is being paid to
14 transportation, and the prisoners, (who are humans after all) are dying
15 of thirst and lack of oxygen. Prisoners also during the transportation
16 are not being treated in line with the Geneva Conventions, they are
17 maltreated, beaten, and humiliated in the extreme." When you wrote that,
18 sir, was that your opinion?
19 A. I didn't see the signature below, but I believe it's my report.
20 Q. If you look at the bottom of the page just to confirm the
21 initials. It's second page in B/C/S, sorry, and --
22 A. That's it. Yes, it's my report. Yes, that's what I wrote. I
23 have no proof for what I wrote and no way to clarify or explain further,
24 but sometimes I reacted like this to express my own feelings and to force
25 those to whom the report was addressed to react in some way, to put a
1 stop to do these things, bringing in people en masse who did not deserve
2 to be brought in, and that's the feeling I had from the statements of
3 those people who were brought in, which again does not necessarily mean
4 that they were so truthful with me.
5 Q. But, exactly, of course, you couldn't know they were truthful,
6 but do we gather from this that there was a theme with all the
7 questioning that was being carried out that these people had not been
8 fighting or armed or in uniform but had simply been taken off the fields,
9 as you say?
10 A. Yes, one could conclude that.
11 Q. And you felt it necessary to stress that prisoners were also
12 human beings; is that right?
13 A. Precisely. I always believed that as long as I was in Manjaca.
14 Q. Yes.
15 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honours, may that be
16 admitted and marked under seal.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P487, under seal, Your Honours.
19 MS. KORNER: Can you just look, please, at the document which is
20 65 ter 1113. And can we look at paragraph 4 in the English and in the
22 Q. This is not a document that I think you saw before. It's a
23 combat report but we can see -- without going into further details -- it
24 should not be -- sorry, it shouldn't be on the screen. Well, it doesn't
25 matter. Sorry, I take that back.
1 The gentleman who has signed that report is the gentleman about
2 whom you've been talking; is that right? Can you just say yes or no to
4 MS. KORNER: If we look at -- sorry, if we look at the bottom of
5 probably is the second page in -- it's the second page in B/C/S.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 MS. KORNER: Can we go back to paragraph 4, please.
8 Q. It says:
9 "105 Muslim prisoners were today handed over to the Merhamet
10 organisation. These were the prisoners who had not been charged with any
11 crimes." Then it goes on about the Muslim and Croats who want to leave.
12 Was that the first release of any prisoners whilst you had been there?
13 Well, firstly, I should ask you, is that right? Did that happen?
14 A. Yes, that's true. And I believe it was the first time, thanks to
15 the activity of the Merhamet charity because all these other things, the
16 bringing of older and to young people, all these complaints, nobody paid
17 any attention, so Merhamet took over.
18 MS. KORNER: And I'm not sure whether the Trial Chamber has heard
19 about Merhamet before? You have. Yes. Thank you very much. Could that
20 be marked, please -- admitted and marked, please.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P488, Your Honour.
23 MS. KORNER: Right. And just before the break, because I think
24 this is connected with the same thing, can you look, please, at document
1 Q. We haven't typed out all the names, but is this some of the
2 people who were released into Merhamet as approved by Colonel Vukelic?
3 A. Yes. These are people younger than 18, or 18 years old.
4 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, again it's on our 65 ter, admitted
5 and marked. This one need not be under seal.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P489, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: I don't know whether it's time for the break or not,
9 Your Honours, I'm seeing there's one short document I can do before the
10 break. No, the next document, Your Honour, is a long one and deals with
11 Filipovic, so that may be.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 the stand, I would alert you that you have 30 minutes of your allotted
18 time left.
19 MS. KORNER: I rather thought that I had asked for three hours
20 but [Microphone not activated].
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mrs. Korner, please.
22 MS. KORNER: But I will see if I can ...
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 [Trial Chamber and legal officer
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I say, I can do this if I simply
2 ask for admittance of documents on our 65 ter list which I don't have
3 time to deal with but which are on our list for this witness, so that I
4 don't go through all of them with him, but they are admitted. It's going
5 through the documents that takes the time.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 dealing with it, because time of course, remains crucial.
8 MS. KORNER: I understand that, Your Honour. I think Your
9 Honours must be seeing why I'm taking a little bit of time with this
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, Your Honours, I'll do my level
13 best and see where we get to in the next half-hour. Can I ask, sir, that
14 the next document that we have up on the screen is document 2430 on our
15 65 ter not to be shown to the public, please, and under seal.
16 Q. Again, sir, if we look at the last second page in English, and
17 the second page in B/C/S, we'll see, I think it's one of your reports?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. KORNER: Can we go back to the first page then in each.
21 Q. This report deals with a visit of the International Committee of
22 the Red Cross to Manjaca on the 16th of July, is that right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. They presented their conclusions to the -- to the commander of
25 the camp, is that right, and to Colonel Vukelic who was the assistant
1 commander for moral guidance of the 1KK?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. They refer in this report to Omer Filipovic and Senad Supuk being
4 in isolation having been beaten and that there was fresh human blood on
5 the walls of the cell. Had Filipovic and the other gentleman been placed
6 in isolation?
7 A. Well, since it's written there, I believe it, although I cannot
8 recall it now, but I think so.
9 Q. All right. Again in that report you say that military policemen
10 together with the security commander just don't understand that the
11 prisoners are humans. Was that your experience of the military police?
12 A. Precisely as I wrote.
13 Q. And then finally the only other paragraph on this report, is the
14 fact that the soldiers, policemen, are sometimes taking, I think it must
15 be out, rather than put, prisoners whom they don't like or who they like
16 less by their own will and that they beat them as they please.
17 Again, sir, was that a fact that unfortunately happened in
18 Manjaca, that there were beatings by the police?
19 A. Yes, that's how it is recorded in the report, and I took steps
20 through the military police and I sent the report it itself to my
21 superior, so that certain measures be taken just to put a stop to this.
22 Q. Right. And just so we are quite clear, are you referring there
23 just to the military police or to both civilian and military police?
24 A. This regarded principally the military police because the type of
25 information was normally dealt by a patrol of the military police.
1 Q. Yes, thank you.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be marked -- admitted and
3 marked, please.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P490 under seal, Your Honours.
6 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Now, can you just look very briefly,
7 please, at the next document which is -- the number is 2778 on our 65 ter
8 list and need not be under seal. And we need the second page, first of
9 all, in the B/C/S and the second page in English. Sorry, the third page
10 in the B/C/S. Yes, thank you.
11 Q. This is a report of the same incident by Colonel Vukelic dated,
12 in fact, the same day; is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 MS. KORNER: I don't want to go through it again, can we just
15 have that admitted and marked, on our 65 ter list.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P491, Your Honour.
18 MS. KORNER: Right. Moving through quickly, if we can, can we
19 look, next, please, at document 821. Actually, forget that, don't worry,
20 I'm sorry, because of the time it can come in through another witness.
21 Can we look at document 2431. Again, can that be under seal and
22 not put up on the screen.
23 Q. Another one of your reports, sir. 22nd of July. And
24 effectively, it's the same theme, isn't it, sir? You say that it should
25 be noted, in the first paragraph, that every new group of prisoners from
1 Kljuc and Sanski Most is less and less incriminated so that you suggest
2 that cases are selected, that this way of bringing prisoners is stopped
3 because if they did not have weapons, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
4 You are actually making the point that, I think again, that these are not
5 prisoners of war in the proper sense of the word. And you end this
6 paragraph by saying:
7 "Incidentally, this camp can be considered as a detention camp,
8 i.e., a camp for the segregation of Muslims and Croats, which history
9 will not forgive us."
10 You wrote that at the time, sir. Is that still an opinion that
11 you hold?
12 A. That is still my opinion, although there is a lot of my own
13 personal input in this report. My own opinions and impressions because
14 that's how I saw it. There were too many people for whom we had no
15 information that they had indeed committed a war crime or that they were
16 captured on front lines.
17 Q. Right. And then at the beginning of the next paragraph:
18 "During the day, nine new war prisoners were brought into the POW
19 camp Manjaca from Kljuc. Even the militiamen who brought them in did not
20 know how to explain why they had imprisoned them and brought them in.
21 Truth to be said, this is the first group which was brought in tact,
22 i.e., there are no traces of violence, so this is also proof they were
23 probably brought in only because they are Muslims and Croats."
24 Yes, that's what I wanted to ask you about that.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked under
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P492 under seal, Your Honour.
4 MS. KORNER: Next can we have, please, up on the screen 2432.
5 Again could that be not put up on the screen and marked as under seal.
6 Q. It's the following day and you are talking about the 994
7 prisoners from Sanski Most:
8 "We do not have any new information, i.e., a great number of
9 these prisoners did not take part in combat activities, were not in
10 possession of weapons, and there's no other evidence based on which they
11 could be kept prisoners. We take statements from the prisoners, and
12 these statements come down to two or three sentences, because prisoners
13 don't have anything to say except they were imprisoned whilst at home on
14 that and that date and brought to the camp without knowing the reason for
16 And then you appeal once more to the people responsible in the
17 municipalities of Kljuc and Sanski Most not to do this anymore.
18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I just go into private session for a
20 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
14 MS. KORNER: Finally, can we look at the last paragraph on page 1
15 in English. Yes, it's the same in -- page 1 in B/C/S.
16 Q. This deals with an allegation of force by the military police,
17 and you end up by saying: "We warn once again that the military police
18 commander should be informed that the POW camp Manjaca is not a torture
19 house but a camp of war prisoners who should be treated at least
21 MS. KORNER: Yes, thank you, Your Honours, can that be admitted
22 and marked under seal, please.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P493 under seal, Your Honour.
25 MS. KORNER: Yes, very briefly, can we look, please, at document
1 365 on our 65 ter list. Sorry, it's already an exhibit, in which case
2 don't worry. I'm sorry, it's already an exhibit.
3 Can we look, please, next -- yes, at document -- sorry, it's
4 10229. So this one was not on our 65 ter list, Your Honours, and I'll
5 have it marked for identification. And if necessary, apply to have it
6 admitted in a written motion.
7 Q. This deals with effectively, is this right, it's one of a number
8 of documents saying that prisoners of war should be engaged as labourers,
9 in this case for the entire length of the water-pipes with the
10 appropriate security. And earlier on you referred to the church being
11 built by the prisoners. Were the prisoners used to do quite a lot of
12 physical labouring work on pipes and other matters?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And just refer, did you have any difficulty in finding prisoners
15 who wanted to do the work?
16 A. Yes, the prisoners went out to work on a voluntary basis. It was
17 natural for people to want to be outside in the fresh air and have
18 contact with other people, so the policemen would also like for
19 volunteers to go to work on a particular day, and in addition to the
20 pipeline and digging up potatoes, there was this work on the
21 reconstruction of the church that we'll come to. So it was on voluntary
22 basis, and far more people volunteered than was actually necessary.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. Then can we look, please, next very quickly at
24 document 2433 to be under seal, please, and not go up on the screen. The
25 previous one should be MFI
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P494 marked for
3 MS. KORNER: Now, if we can have up the document that I've just
4 mentioned, 2433, under seal and not on the screen.
5 Q. Again, sir, another one of your reports. And this report deals
6 with the death of Omer Filipovic and Esad Bender; is that right?
7 A. That's right, yes.
8 Q. And so it was a few days after the visit by -- the first visit
9 by -- actually, I didn't ask you that. That visit about which the report
10 was made, was that the first visit of the Red Cross?
11 A. I don't think so actually. I can't quite remember when they
12 visited first, but it was quite early on. I think at the beginning of
14 Q. Anyhow, I don't think we need -- because of time, so I don't
15 think we've got time to go through this report except to note that the
16 Topic, as you told us, was one of the people suspected of having been a
17 party to the death of these two men? Is that right?
18 MS. KORNER: We can see that, sorry, I should say, at the top of
19 page 2 in English and it's the second paragraph in B/C/S.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, they were uncovered
21 straightaway, the perpetrators, within the space of half an hour to an
22 hour. And all those who were supposed to be informed about it were, and
23 investigating magistrates team asked for an investigation to be launched.
24 A pathologist was on the scene, and as far as we were concerned, the case
25 was over because it was handed on to other organs and authorities, and
1 the only other thing that I did was to call his brother Mehmed and
2 express my condolences to him on a personal level, talk to him and
3 perhaps we had a cup of coffee.
4 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Please admitted and marked, Your
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P495, under seal, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: Can you now, please, have a look at 508. 65 ter
10 Q. This is a combat, what is called a combat report of the 1st
11 Krajina Corps to the Main Staff and at the bottom of the first page in
12 English and it's the second -- third page in B/C/S. Paragraph 3, we can
13 see that it says: "About 1.460 POWs were brought from Omarska to
14 Manjaca. There were deaths during the transport to the camp."
15 In a moment we'll have a look at your report about that, but was
16 this after the -- the report is dated the 7th of August. Was this after
17 the closure of Omarska?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, then may that be admitted and marked.
20 It's on our 65 ter list.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P496, Your Honour.
23 MS. KORNER: And now could you go, please, to 1587. Sorry, could
24 we have up 1587. And that should be under seal, sorry, and not go on the
1 Q. If we look at the second page, please, first of all, very
2 quickly, and do we see there in B/C/S as well, please. Is that actually
3 signed by you?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. And it's dated the same day.
6 MS. KORNER: Go back, please, to page 1 in each.
7 Q. In the second paragraph, you are talking about the reception, you
8 say, The lists haven't been updated, certain individuals from the list
9 have been omitted. You don't know if they came from Omarska or not.
10 Eight prisoners died during the transport, three of whom probably have
11 been killed because they had visible traces of violence, and here you
12 talk about: "The behaviour of the people who participated in securing
13 the transportation of prisoners is very incorrect, inhuman, and bullying.
14 When they were warned not to kill a half dead prisoner, they told him
15 'should you act like that, you'll get what he got?'"
16 Was that person who went and spoke to them about their behaviour,
17 was that you?
18 A. Yes, because of goings on of this kind in front of the camp, the
19 camp commander intervened as well, but they didn't stop that behaviour,
20 so I went out too. I felt it my duty, moral duty and an -- (redacted)
21 (redacted). I also went out to try to prevent any further willful
22 behaviour, but I came across the scene that you described, and I was told
23 that if I shouted at them, I'll fare the same as the others, so I
24 couldn't do anything else but inform my superior and write this report,
25 as it says here, and I would write the same report today.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, can we redact the words at
2 page 61, lines 1 and 2, "(redacted)" Can I have an order to
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MS. KORNER: Sorry, thank you very much.
6 Q. Who were the people who brought in these people from Omarska?
7 Not their names, but what was their jobs?
8 A. Of course, I couldn't give you the names because I don't know
9 them, but they were mostly members of the police, the milicija, those
10 were the uniforms they were wearing.
11 Q. And then finally on this, in the last paragraph in the English on
12 page 1:
13 "Manjaca camp is now full, has no room for a single prisoner. We
14 are reminding the investigating inspectors explanations that all
15 prisoners who have been brought in from Omarska are serious extremists.
16 He didn't provide a single explanation of that fact. During the
17 reception we have found people who weren't even fit to hold a rifle in
18 their hands, nonetheless to run or to shoot. And we also found minors
19 who didn't even have a weapon or participated in the combat, not being
20 water carriers. All of this is indicative of thoughtless conducts of the
21 organs in Prijedor, the superficial work of the organs of the police and
22 the SUP
23 give us official records ..."
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked under
1 JUDGE HALL
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P497, under seal, Your Honours.
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honours, I'm trying to cut things out.
4 Yes, could we look now, please, at 2384. Again, Your Honours, please,
5 under seal and not to be on the screen.
6 Q. So is that another one of your reports?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And you describe the composition of the prisoners in the camp and
9 then you talk about in the second paragraph a visit by Vojo Kupresanin
10 who's told apparently arrived and told them that 70 per cent would be
11 released on Thursday, he having visited two days earlier. Who was
12 Mr. Vojo Kupresanin?
13 A. I never actually met the man, but I do know that he was -- was he
14 the president of SAO Krajina or something like that? And as such, he
15 came up to Manjaca, but I wasn't present when he arrived, or at least I
16 can't remember having been. He promised in talking to them to boost
17 morale, the prisoners morale. He promised that they would be released,
18 some 90 per cent, or what did he say, 70 per cent of them would be
19 released. And he faced us with a problem, the security organs that we
20 were for the camp, because there was general unrest, whereas he failed to
21 keep his promise.
22 Q. And indeed you say:
25 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid we need to redact -- sorry, can we go
1 back, lines 23 to 25 of page 62. Part of it anyhow. I'm told if I
2 repeat the words it has to be redacted as well, so.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MS. KORNER: It's not very helpful.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MS. KORNER: So would Your Honours order that, please?
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. May that then document,
9 please, be admitted and marked.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P498 under seal, Your Honour.
12 MS. KORNER: I don't need that one, it's already exhibit. And
13 yes, could you have a brief look, please, at document 517 on the 65 ter
15 Q. We saw earlier your complaint that the people from Omarska had
16 arrive without anything to show why they were there. Was this Simo
17 Drljaca from Prijedor security station forwarding to the commander the
18 lists plus allegedly the documentation that went with them?
19 A. You can see that from this letter to the camp commander that he
20 is sending some documents attached to the letter, but he doesn't say how
21 many notes or whatever. Yes, notes did arrive subsequently after the
22 people had already arrived, but.
23 MS. KORNER: And just very quickly, please, if we have a look at
24 the third page in English, and in B/C/S, it's for prisoner number 52,
25 it's, I think, the third page in B/C/S as well. Yes.
1 Q. We see there, I think an example of something you had been
2 complaining about, number 52, the gentleman there was born in 1926, so he
3 was clearly over 60.
4 A. That's right.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be -- it's on our 65 ter list,
6 may that be admitted and marked, please.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P499 under seal.
9 MS. KORNER: Can we look, please, at document number 1282. Can
10 we just go into private session very quickly, Your Honour, on this one.
11 [Private session]
11 Page 5313 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, we are in open session, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER: -- 2436. Again, please, not to go out on the
6 screen. And to be marked under seal. This is a report. If we look at
7 the last page -- it's the third page, sorry, in each. No, second page in
9 Q. If you just say, sir, that's the gentleman who you referred to
10 earlier; is that right? Can you just say yes or no?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you made aware of the contents of this report?
13 A. Upon arrival, yes, certainly.
14 MS. KORNER: Could we look at the second page, please, in B/C/S
15 then, and it's the -- I think it's still -- the second page in English
16 and also the second page, sorry, in B/C/S. The bottom part, please, of
17 the English, please. Thank you.
18 Q. The -- it records that representatives of the CSB Banja Luka
19 visited, is that right, the camp?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And besides all the [indiscernible] taking of the prisoners
22 according to the established criteria, the most critical CSBs turned a
23 deaf ear to the orders that they received.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can that be admitted and marked,
1 JUDGE HALL
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P501 under seal, Your Honour.
3 MS. KORNER: Could we look, please -- this is not on our 65 ter
4 list -- 10233. Just to note the contents really, because you dealt with
6 Q. This is the order, is it not, in fact, if we looked at the second
7 page we'd see it was signed on behalf of General Talic for the
8 construction of the church for the repair?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Your Honours, can we just have
11 that marked for identification if we think it's necessary to add it.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 THE REGISTRAR: As P502 marked for identification.
14 MS. KORNER: I'm just checking on the remainder of the documents,
15 if I may, very quickly, to see if I can -- I appreciate I've taken a
16 little more time. Yes, well, Your Honours, this document obviously will
17 in fact come in through another witness, so again I'm going to skip that.
18 That was 2423. Your Honours, there's a daily -- there's a report which,
19 can I perhaps just get him to identify it and then leave it at that.
20 Could I have up, please, 24 -- 2579, sorry.
21 Q. If one looks at the --
22 MS. KORNER: Sorry, the second page in each. I'm so sorry. It's
23 a November report. No, the first page is fine. Then again, can this not
24 go out on the screen?
25 Q. Again, is this the same gentleman you referred to earlier who
1 actually wrote this report?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And by November of 1992, had preparations started to release
4 people from the camp and move them to another camp?
5 A. Yes, that was the beginning of November. For the 14th of
6 November, the first group was supposed to go, so we were preparing for
7 their departure to third countries.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may that be then admitted and marked,
9 and then could I have up 2349.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 2579 will be Exhibit
13 MS. KORNER: And then the document --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Under seal, I suppose?
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, please. Thank you so much, Your Honour.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal.
17 MS. KORNER: The final document is dated the 9th of November,
18 what number is it, 2349. Again, please, not on the screen and under
20 Q. I think this one is your report, and you describe here that
21 prisoners who have arrived from the prison in Banja Luka have been
22 physically abused and are wearing visible injuries; is that correct?
23 A. That's right.
24 MS. KORNER: Because we haven't got enough time, I'm not going to
25 go through the rest of the report. Your Honours, again can that be
1 admitted and marked under seal?
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As P504 under seal.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to show, however, the
5 witness a couple of clips from videos.
6 Q. First of all, sir, were you present at Manjaca when Paddy
7 Ashdown, Lord Ashdown arrived at the camp?
8 A. I can't remember whether I was, but I do know that the visit did
9 take place, but I just can't remember whether I was there or not.
10 Q. All right. In fact, I tell you what, that's already an exhibit,
11 so we'll skip that one. Can we come to one where it's not because
12 there's just something I want to ask you about.
13 MS. KORNER: 2330. This is, Your Honour, the last topic, I
14 think. It's in sanction. There is no sound, there should be sound. All
15 right, I don't know what has happened to sound but it may not matter.
16 First of all, can we pause it there for a moment.
17 Q. Behind the reporter, we can see people standing there with their
18 heads bowed. First of all, who were those people?
19 A. They were prisoners. I know one of those.
20 Q. Can you identify which one?
21 A. Vahid Ceric, the first from the left.
22 Q. They are all standing with their heads bowed down like that. Was
23 that an order that they were to stand like that?
24 A. Yes, that was the order, generally. Work in the camp and law and
25 order in the camp was that the prisoners should move around with their
1 heads down and hands behind their backs. I suppose to be less capable of
2 putting up any resistance.
3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, although there is sound, I don't
4 think I need for these purposes trouble you. May I simply ask that it be
5 marked and admitted for this. In fact, can we -- as we move on one bit
6 further, I think we are going to see the prisoner a bit more that you are
7 talking about. Can we just fast forward it slightly. I don't know why
8 there's no sound.
9 Q. Yes, is that -- that's the person you are talking about,
10 Vahid Ceric?
11 A. Yes, that's Vahid Ceric.
12 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, may I ask that be admitted and
14 JUDGE HALL
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P505, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, can I ask a question while it's still
17 on to the witness. Mr. Witness, in this video, the prisoners, detainees,
18 seem to have some kind of uniform. They are all wearing the same
19 clothes, same hat. You notice that? Is that -- was that provided by the
20 camp authorities, or is it just coincidence?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it's coincidence for
22 this particular event, or as far as this event is concerned.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That means that they have been dressed like this
24 for this particular event, is that what you are saying?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, yes.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm so sorry, I think I did miss one
3 document. Did I have 1591 in? I think I missed that by mistake. So I
4 have missed it. Can I have up 1591. And Your Honours, could that not go
5 on the screen and be marked under seal.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MS. KORNER: I can't believe I missed this one either.
8 Q. You talked, sir, about the difference between Official Notes and
9 reports. Is this an Official Note done by you in respect of the incident
10 you earlier described from -- with the prisoners of Omarska?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you say, as you said in the beginning:
13 "Compiled due to the violent and inhuman conduct of the Prijedor
14 SJB employees towards the prisoners..."
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that, please, be admitted and
16 marked under seal.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P506 under seal.
19 MS. KORNER:
20 Q. Just to go back for a moment, that really is the final question
21 to the question that His Honour Judge Delvoie asked you, normally around
22 the camp did the prisoners have uniform?
23 A. No, it was not usual. They went around in clothes in which they
24 arrived. That's how it normally worked, but not always for everyone.
25 MS. KORNER: Sir, thank you very much. Indeed, Your Honours,
1 thank you for the latitude in allowing me more time.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 or you just decided to reverse the order?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, we just split the order.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. We've met before but for
7 the record, my name is Dragan Krgovic. I am appearing for
8 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin today. I have a few questions in regard of your
9 evidence earlier today.
10 Just let me remind you, we should avoid overlapping and in order
11 to do that, before you start answering my question, make a pause of 15,
12 20 seconds to make it possible for the interpreters to interpret both the
13 question and the answer.
14 First I have a question regarding your last answer and a
15 clarification that I believe was not recorded on the transcript. When
16 you were asked by the Prosecutor about uniforms, you said they, meaning
17 prisoners, wore clothes in which they arrived. That was what normally
18 happened, but not with everyone, but you also said, at least I heard,
19 that the prisoners wore the uniforms they arrived in, some of them had
20 uniforms, there were uniforms available, but not for everyone. Is that
22 A. Yes, but I cannot tell you in percentage how many were in uniform
23 and how many in civilian clothing. There were both uniformed inmates and
24 inmates in civilian clothing as they arrived to the camp.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move for a moment into
1 private session.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 5322-5324 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Court and to the
8 Prosecution because I've sent this document to translation services but
9 I've only received back a partial translation. The whole document has
10 about nine pages, but I'm only going to show the witness one passage.
11 I'll ask the witness to read the document aloud so it can be interpreted
12 so everyone can understand what it is about, and I believe that by the
13 end of the day we'll have it in e-court, and obviously I'm not going to
14 finish my cross-examination today, and tomorrow I'll come back to this
15 document with some more questions.
16 Q. Witness, are you familiar with this document?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: Can we go to the private session, please, and this
20 part must be redacted.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session now, Your Honours.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Please read this title.
16 A. "Methods of combat training for military police."
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I ask for page 2 of this
18 document, Chapter 7. Page 175.
19 Q. The Prosecutor asked you earlier today which persons have the
20 status of prisoners of war, and you gave a textbook narrow definition of
21 prisoners of war. I will read out this definition here bit by bit and
22 from your knowledge and experience, you will confirm to me whether all
23 these categories of persons have indeed the status of prisoner of war.
24 It says: "A prisoner of war is understood to be a person who has the
25 following status --"
1 JUDGE HALL
2 the adjournment. Is there any point in beginning this because you
3 couldn't possibly finish.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: I will move on, Your Honour. Maybe I can finish --
5 a couple minutes before if you have two minutes left.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 have the same time, I always follow the clock in LiveNote. So perhaps
8 you can pick this up tomorrow morning.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, I finish now.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 for today. We are obliged to break at 1.45 which is the time now.
12 Having been sworn as a witness, I'm obliged to caution you that you
13 cannot communicate with the lawyers from either side in this matter.
14 Furthermore, in such conversations as you may have with anybody outside
15 of the courtroom, you can't discuss the testimony you are giving. So you
16 will return to this courtroom, I believe we are still in this courtroom,
17 at 9.00 -- for 9.00 tomorrow morning, and according to our present
18 schedule, your testimony should be concluded sometime tomorrow. So you
19 are now excused as a witness but not released.
20 So we take the adjournment to tomorrow morning. Thank you.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of
23 January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.