1 Friday, 22 January 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Before I call for the appearances, I note for the record that we
11 again resume today under the provisions of Rule 15 bis due to the
12 continued illness of Judge Harhoff.
13 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
14 Crispian Smith on behalf of the Prosecution.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
16 behalf of the Defence for Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene
17 O'Sullivan. My colleague, Mr. Zecevic, will be with us a little later
19 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Zupljanin
20 Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and Katarina Danicic our case
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness to
23 come in, is it Your Honour's intention to have a sort of procedural, as
24 it were, conference if the witness finishes, say, an hour before the end
25 of the session? That was the original suggestion, I know.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers]... right.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE HALL
7 Before I invite Mr. Krgovic to continue his cross-examination, I
8 remind you that you're still on your oath.
9 WITNESS: ST-172 [Resumed]
10 [The witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honour.
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
15 Yesterday, before we broke for the day, we were discussing a
16 document, so might we have it up on e-court again. 2D020609 is the
18 Your Honours, I have to inform the Trial Chamber that the
19 document still has not been translated, unfortunately, so I only have a
20 copy in B/C/S. I'll do my best during the cross-examination to use it as
21 little as possible, to refer to it as little as possible. I might be
22 dealing with perhaps four or five sentences that I will read out to the
24 JUDGE HALL
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have page 2 of this document
1 up on our screens, please. Chapter 7, may we zoom in to Chapter 7.
2 Q. Chapter 7 is titled "The Security of Prisoners of War," or
3 "Security for Prisoners of War," and it goes on to say who is considered
4 to be a POW; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It says --
7 JUDGE HALL
8 whether the interpreters have a copy of the document?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: No, but I can help, give one copy.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Apart from the category that you mentioned
11 yesterday in response to a question from the Prosecution about persons
12 wearing uniforms and bearing arms, in addition to those, it says,
13 "members of volunteer detachments within the armed forces." Is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And also "members of resistance movements and volunteer
17 detachments." Right?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Then members of regular armed forces of a government not
20 recognised by the adversary; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, finally, civilians or, rather, members of crews of military
23 planes, correspondents, various suppliers, members of cultural and
24 educational teams linked to the army, members of the navy and civil
25 aviation, or, and this is what I'm particularly interested in, members of
1 the population rising up to fight the enemy and locate it on free
3 A. I don't see that on that page.
4 Q. It's on the following page, Witness. I apologise for not telling
5 you. At the top there, top of the page. Is that what it says in this
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. And I think you'll agree with me when I say that persons from
9 this category, apart from the narrow definition of a POW that you
10 discussed, was at Manjaca, too, during the time you were there, so these
12 A. Yes. I took the definition from the Conventions --
14 word for word. But, anyway, our regulations expanded on that concept
15 somewhat here.
16 Q. Secondly, in paragraph 4 of this same document, it talks about
17 stations for collecting prisoners of war, and they are in the rear; that
18 is to say, centres or stations where prisoners of war are brought in from
19 the combat zones. Is that what this means?
20 A. Yes, that is what this means.
21 Q. And the next sentence says that prisoner of war camps shall be
22 determined by organisation and formation or establishment; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And within the camp command, there is the established unit of a
25 military police there to provide security?
1 A. Yes, and that was the case at Manjaca too.
2 Q. That was the case at Manjaca too, you say. So there was this
3 organisation, an establishment, and a military police unit deployed and
4 engaged in providing security; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in the third paragraph from the bottom, it says that the
7 camp command of the POWs will decide upon the way the prisoners are
8 distributed and housed in the camp. It also provides for a system of
9 security for the POW camp; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that was what was done at Manjaca; right?
12 A. Yes. At Manjaca, we had security. The engineers provided
13 security. We had technical security and physical security, the manpower,
14 the people, the guards manning the observation points, and so on. And
15 the engineer security -- technical security meant wire fences,
16 minefields. That came under the engineers or what we called technical
17 security for a camp or any other facilities for which security is
19 Q. Furthermore, in the last paragraph on that same page, it says
20 that the prisoners of war, upon their arrest, must be evacuated away from
21 the front-line to ensure their safety and security; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now have the following page
24 pulled up of this document.
25 Q. Here, it speaks about escorting prisoners of war, the procedure
1 in which prisoners of war are escorted. That's Chapter 6. Is that
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Now may we have the next page,
6 Q. And would you focus on the second paragraph from the bottom,
7 which is underlined on that next page.
8 May we zoom in to that, please, on our screens.
9 And this paragraph deals with the escort of prisoners of war on
10 foot and the way in which they are escorted in columns, and the security
11 provided for that column or columns. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, when the Prosecutor asked you earlier on about transport or
14 the arrival of a column of POWs from Kljuc who were brought in on foot,
15 that is nothing unusual, right, nothing out of the ordinary or in
16 contravention to the Geneva Conventions or the rules that were applied in
17 1992 regarding the transport of prisoners of war on foot?
18 A. That's right. All I said was that when we lacked motor vehicles,
19 trucks, they went on foot, but I didn't say that that was anything
20 unusual because at military police training sessions and courses we dealt
21 with the escort of prisoners of war on foot many times, precisely in the
22 way as it is set out here in this paragraph.
23 Q. And since the distance from Kljuc to Manjaca is a relatively
24 short distance, then that could be done that way; right?
25 A. Yes, it could be done that way, because I said it was just a
1 distance of some 15 kilometres. I never calculated the distance, but I
2 know that there's a short-cut that is even shorter, so most probably they
3 took that short-cut.
4 Q. And now in the second part of that paragraph, it says that during
5 transport, interrogated prisoner of war officers from soldiers should be
6 separated so that the officers should not be able to wield any influence
7 on the subordinates and soldiers?
8 A. Yes. During this transport on foot, the persons interrogated
9 from persons not yet interrogated are separated, as are officers from the
10 rank and file.
11 Q. And the prisoners of war, if possible, are interrogated straight
12 away, right, as soon as they are captured, and if they haven't been
13 interrogated, then that is left to a later stage?
14 A. Usually it's done straight away for intelligence reasons, because
15 the information is freshest in their minds. If you interrogate somebody
16 straight away, they'll be able to provide you with the best information
17 because it's fresh in their minds. And then the interrogation is
18 continued in greater detail in the camps or elsewhere.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back a moment to the
20 previous page. I'd like us to look at the last and penultimate
21 paragraph. Could we zoom in there, please. To the right. Thank you.
22 Q. In the second paragraph there, it says that for the escort of a
23 larger number of POWs, men are assigned from other units to carry out
24 that task; is that right?
25 A. Yes, precisely, from other units. During our training courses
1 and sessions, we mostly had cases where, when we had a large number of
2 prisoners, men from other units were used who did not belong to the
3 military police, for instance.
4 Q. And the unit command taking part in the capture can also deploy
5 MUP forces to provide escort for the POWs; right?
6 A. I don't see that it says that here.
7 Q. But in practice, is that possible, and did that happen?
8 A. I don't remember any such case, but quite possibly.
9 Q. You said, in response to the Prosecution, that the POWs were
10 sometimes brought in by the military police?
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. Now, please, take a look at the fourth paragraph from the bottom.
13 I'm going to read out the paragraph. It says:
14 "In cases where a person who is being escorted happens to be
15 killed or dies a natural death along the way, or in any other way, the
16 leader of the patrol shall inform the military police unit thereof, the
17 nearest military prosecutor, the investigating judge of the
18 Military Court
19 that an on-site investigation team can arrive and launch an
21 Do you agree that that's what it says there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in case in the camp, itself, a killing or death occurs of a
24 POW, those same measures will be applied, right, in practice? And I'm
25 referring to the case that happened involving Filipovic and that other
1 man, the other prisoner, who succumbed to the wounds from their beatings.
2 The military prosecutor was informed thereof, as was the Military Court.
3 The site was secured, and the investigating judge came to carry out an
4 on-site investigation; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now have Exhibit P411.32 up
7 on our screens, please.
8 Your Honours, I'm just going to ask for the previous document to
9 be MFI
10 JUDGE HALL
11 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit 2D32 marked for identification,
12 Your Honours.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see the second page
14 of this document.
15 Q. Can you please read this document carefully first, and then I'll
16 ask you a couple of questions regarding it. Just this text which is at
17 the bottom.
18 This is, in fact, a note, and it refers to the POWs who died of
19 asphyxia during transportation to Manjaca. One may conclude from this
20 document that notice was sent about this to the Court in Sanski Most, as
21 well as the SUP
22 that a medical team examined the victims to establish the cause of death;
23 is that right?
24 A. Yes, that is what I deduce from this document. I didn't say
25 yesterday that they died of this or that. They were just found dead when
1 they arrived at the camp, and I don't know what happened before that.
2 Q. Well, if you see that both the investigating judge and the SUP
3 were notified that an examination was carried out by a medical team, is
4 that fully consistent with the regulation and the rule that I read
5 previously to you about the procedure to be applied when somebody dies of
6 natural causes, by accident, or in another way? So the procedure in this
7 case was fully complied with; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, do we have a date on this document?
10 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: And is it --
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we go back to the
13 previous page of this document, I showed this document to
14 Witness Draganovic, who confirmed that this document refers particularly
15 to this incident. He was the president of the Court, and he -- if you
16 remember, and he was the one who located this document at the Sanski Most
17 Clinic or Centre and confirmed its authenticity, and he linked this
18 document to the death of these people from Manjaca.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: What's the time-frame from this investigation to
20 the killings, themselves?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I was able to elicit from
22 the Witness Draganovic, the one immediately followed the other. And I
23 also asked the protected witness who used to work for the police in
24 Sanski Most about this document, and we established the time-frame, and
25 there was confirmation of that. I cannot tell you now exactly what page
1 in the transcript this was stated in.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Has this witness any knowledge about this, about
3 when this investigation was conducted?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, this witness
5 doesn't know what happened next. My question was purely about the fact
6 whether, in this particular instance, the procedure that was prescribed
7 by the rules was applied.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness couldn't answer that if he doesn't
9 know when this investigation is conducted.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just asked him
11 theoretically, without specifying any time-frame, whether it is
12 consistent with the rules to apply such a procedure and whether this
13 procedure was complied with, and it is connected with a specific
14 incidents other witnesses spoke about, and I think Witness Draganovic
15 confirmed the identity of the persons who were suffocated during the
16 transportation to Manjaca. That was this particular instance. What I
17 asked today was only whether it was in compliance with the rules.
18 Q. Sir, the Prosecutor asked you yesterday about the witness --
19 sorry, not the witness, about an individual.
20 And in that context can we please see Exhibit P481. It's a
22 You were asked whether, from the statement that you saw, it seems
23 that he was a POW who took part in an armed insurgency, and you answered
24 that on the basis of this document, you cannot answer that question; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see Exhibit P483.
3 Q. Can you please look at the second paragraph from the bottom.
4 MS. KORNER: Sorry, the previous witness?
5 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes. No, the --
6 MS. KORNER: Sorry. Sorry, can we go into private session?
7 JUDGE HALL
8 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: In open session, Your Honours.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. One can see from this paragraph that the witness or, rather, the
24 man that you questioned said that Asim Egrlic had given a weapon to
25 Omer Filipovic, and that he took part in the arming of a Muslim unit;
1 isn't that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And that, in fact, could have been a reason for him to be
4 qualified as a participant in insurgency and the reason for his
5 incarceration; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You spoke extensively about a large number of POWs who were
8 interrogated and whose statements were taken. Generally speaking, you
9 cannot remember each individual case, at least not the majority, with the
10 exception of some specific and characteristic cases?
11 A. Of course I cannot.
12 Q. Yesterday, you were asked by the Prosecutor about Dr. Sabanovic,
13 whether you knew if he was an extremist, and you said that you didn't
14 know whether he could be qualified as an extremist. Do you remember
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Do you know --
18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, that's an inaccurate answer; it's not what
19 the witness said. I think you better find the page in the transcript.
20 And that wasn't the question.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I remember the question being,
22 Would you describe Sabanovic as an extremist? Well, in any case, the
23 answer was negative.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was either negative, or
25 I think I said I didn't perceive him as such. I can't remember exactly.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That was just an introduction to my
2 next question.
3 Q. Sir, do you know that Dr. Sabanovic was interrogated in Manjaca
4 about the circumstances relating to his capacity of a medical doctor and
5 that, during the conflicts in Croatia
6 medical certificates that would assist conscripts to avoid mobilisation
7 or to become draft-dodgers, actually?
8 A. I know nothing about that.
9 Q. And do you know that military investigating organs questioned,
10 before the outbreak of the conflict, Dr. Sabanovic in Sanski Most about
11 these circumstances?
12 A. I really know nothing about that.
13 Q. The fact is, but I am saying again hypothetically, that if it
14 turned out that he had issued so many false certificates, that would
15 constitute a crime and would be contrary to military laws, and that would
16 mean assisting armed insurgents; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Sir, in your evidence you spoke something about how the camp was
19 set up. The camp was set up - and can you please just repeat. I think
20 you already told us that. Can you tell us whether the camp and was set
21 up in compliance with the military rules applicable at the time in the
22 territory of Republika Srpska? Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
25 exhibit marked 10217 under 65 ter.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, you asked the witness whether
2 issuing so many false certificates, which would constitute a crime and
3 would be contrary to military laws, that that would mean assisting armed
4 insurgents; is that right? And the witness answers, Yes. Would you ask
5 the witness how this would assist armed insurgents, writing certificates
6 for people who don't want to be armed and listed?
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I'll do that.
8 Q. Witness, when the conflict broke out in the former Yugoslavia
9 the JNA declared partial mobilisation and started sending summons to
10 conscripts either to join the army or to respond to mobilisation. Do you
11 remember that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. What follows was an en-masse response by the Serbs, while the
14 Croats and the others tried to evade receiving the summons for serving in
15 the army and for mobilisation. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes, I remember them doing that in every possible way.
17 Q. One of the ways was to have a false medical certificate that they
18 were not fit for military service.
19 A. Yes, that was one of the ways.
20 Q. On the other hand, those persons who failed to respond to
21 mobilisation in the JNA joined paramilitary formations for the Croat and
22 Muslim forces that were in the process of being formed at the time; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in that manner, the combat power of the JNA, and later of
1 Republika Srpska forces, were weakened?
2 A. Yes, that's what I said. The defence capacity of the armed
3 forces of the country were weakened, and under the law this included
4 fleeing from the armed forces, et cetera.
5 Q. And in that way, they directly assisted armed insurgents against
6 the JNA and later against Republika Srpska and the legal system of the
8 A. Yes, it could be interpreted in that manner. This affected the
9 capacity of the forces that were preparing insurgency.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document not be
12 broadcast, because I don't know if it is a confidential one. Maybe my
13 learned friend can help me. Does it fall into the category that should
14 not be --
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. I don't know if the Prosecutor showed you this document during
18 proofing or if you had an opportunity to see it at some earlier stage.
19 It's the minutes of the meeting at Manjaca between the POW camp commander
20 that took place on the 31st of August, 1992. So can you please look at
21 page 2 of this document. In the English, it is on page 1 and continues
22 onto page 2, the conversations.
23 We have certain notes and observations by the camp commander.
24 I'll go through some of those observation to ask you whether they
25 correspond to the actual situation on the ground in Manjaca at that time.
1 He introduces himself first and explains what type of camp it is.
2 And then in paragraph 4 or item 4, he says that in conformity with
3 Article 2 of the Geneva Conventions, paragraph 78 and 90, he and the
4 prisoners elected their representatives and deputy representatives. So
5 I'm asking you now whether, in Manjaca, did the prisoners elect their
6 deputies or representatives, in fact, and how did that function in
8 A. Yes, that's right. A commissioner for the entire camp was
9 Captain Vahid Ceric, who was the same man mentioned on that statement we
10 looked at yesterday, and each pavilion had one representative or
11 commissioner or deputy representing them, the prisoners. And through
12 that person, the prisoners could address their rights.
13 Q. In paragraph 5, the colonel -- or, rather, Colonel Popovic says
14 that the people in the camp were caught in the combat zone and that that
15 was done in conformity with Articles 4 of the Geneva Conventions,
16 number 1 and 2, A, B, C, and D, which specify who can be a POW.
17 A. That's what it says here.
18 Q. As far as I understand it, this -- your testimony is only correct
19 in part, because you said that you received information from the
20 prisoners of war, themselves, and that some of them were not captured in
21 the combat zone. Is that right?
22 A. Yes. On the basis of the investigations we conducted -- the
23 interrogation we conducted, they mostly said that they were captured at
24 home or working out in the fields, and you had no other information, so
25 it was difficult to establish what had actually happened. And from the
1 notes coming in from the ground, they said otherwise, so it was different
2 to make a judgement and conclude what had actually happened.
3 Q. Because you didn't have reliable information; they said one
4 thing, some witnesses said another, and the notes came in from the Serb
5 authorities, if I can call them that, they said something else, so you
6 had no reliable proof and evidence that they were actually prisoners of
7 war; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But, at any rate, when those people were captured and brought in,
10 it was your duty to investigate, to interrogate them and see whether they
11 were actually prisoners of war or not?
12 A. We didn't have time. Let me say this straight away. We didn't
13 have time to interrogate everybody and investigate, because there were
14 4.403 persons, so we would need much more time than we had to question
15 all of them. Now, for those who were accompanied by a note, and we had a
16 note about them, we interrogated them only superficially; briefly, that
18 Q. And what it says here or follows on from this report, he says
19 that the conditions in the camp were not ideal, that they were lacking in
20 hygiene and medical assistance. And what I would like -- or what I can
21 see from this document and what I can understand from your testimony, you
22 did your best, given the prevailing conditions and circumstances, to
23 ensure the best possible conditions for the prisoners?
24 A. Yes, I have nothing to add or subtract. We did our best. I,
25 personally, was happy to see that most people understood -- well, that
1 the camp commanders understood the situation, and the people that had
2 arrived and were alive in the camp should leave in the same way.
3 Q. And the status and conditions in the camp were affected by
4 objective circumstances. First of all, there was a war in the area, in
5 the region, a war nearby, right, in proximity to the camp, and the fact
6 that this part was isolated from Republika Srpska and the rest of the
7 country for a period of time?
8 A. Yes, that I was going to add without you having to ask me. The
9 situation was a very difficult one at the time. We were cut off from the
10 rest of Republika Srpska and from Serbia
11 intercepted. You know that 12 babies died in Banja Luka for lack of
12 oxygen, and the logistics was a great problem for supplies. So we had to
13 send POWs to our logistics base in Banja Luka or, rather, they sent as
14 much food as they could. We told them of the numbers we had, but they
15 sent the same amount of bread and food as they sent to the combatants up
16 at the front-lines, and that was very little to begin with.
17 Q. And the situation improved, did it, when the corridor was broken
18 through sometime in July 1992 and when the International Red Cross
19 Committee began to come in and distribute food and help the POWs
20 generally; is that right?
21 A. Yes, the situation improved significantly, and the Merhamet also
22 stepped in to help, the charity from Banja Luka. The ICRC from Geneva
23 did, too, in July, and the situation improved quite significantly.
24 Q. In paragraph 7, what the camp commander says there, as far as the
25 conditions in the camp were concerned, he says:
1 "We did everything we could in order to comply with part 2 of
2 Articles 22 to 27 of the Geneva
3 He says:
4 "I would have been happier to have been able to accommodate them
5 in hotels, but I didn't have that possibility."
6 So under the given circumstances, everything possible was done?
7 A. Yes, and I'd like to ask everybody dealing with this issue to
8 bear in mind the time and the context in which the camp existed.
9 Q. So on your part, and the camp administration, beginning with the
10 commander, et cetera, it was never their intention -- or, rather, these
11 POWs were not intentionally faced with a food shortage or difficult
12 living conditions; isn't that right?
13 A. Yes, precisely. Nobody -- I never experienced anybody in the
14 chain of command, from the Presidency of Republika Srpska down to the
15 last guard, that any of those people ever had the intention of making
16 life difficult for the POWs or people coming into the camp by keeping
17 them hungry or trying to liquidate them in any shape or form.
18 Q. Could you please read the other paragraphs on page 2 of the
19 document, paragraphs 4 to 11. Could you look through those, please, so
20 that I can move on.
21 A. I've read them.
22 Q. Could you now move on to page 3 of this document, please. On
23 that page, would you take a look at paragraph 15. Mr. Popovic refers, in
24 that paragraph, to some of the deaths that occurred in the POW camp.
25 Now, does that paragraph correspond to what you know about what happened
1 at Manjaca?
2 A. I have to take a moment to look at this in greater detail.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in to paragraph 15,
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here the camp commander says
6 that there were six deaths, and I think -- well, I know for certain that
7 that's a mistake, because there were five deaths, of which three were
8 natural deaths and the other two violent deaths of the type that I
9 described yesterday. So not six, but five.
10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].
11 Q. And they didn't all die a natural death. Two of them died as a
12 result of violence; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In the remaining part of that document, does it correspond to the
15 situation in the camp?
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we move on to the next page,
18 then, please.
19 Q. Look at that page carefully, please, and please focus on
20 paragraph 26.
21 And could we zoom in on paragraph 26, please.
22 To the best of your recollections, do those figures correspond to
23 the ones you mentioned?
24 A. Well, I don't want to do any math here, but everybody over the
25 age of 60 and under the age of 18, and any sick persons, and I think
1 there were 82 of those, were sent for treatment, and the others were
2 released through Merhamet, so that would roughly be the right figure.
3 But he didn't mention the number of exchanged persons. So an exchange
4 took place, and it was a river that flowed continuously, new people
5 coming in and other people being exchanged. So in the course of a week,
6 there was always one exchange process taking place.
7 Q. May we move on to the next page. Well, you've looked at the rest
8 of the page, and that corresponds to the situation in the camp on the
9 ground; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now let's see the next page. And would you focus on paragraph 33
12 there, please, where it says that there was a period where an
13 investigation -- an interrogation period was conducted, everybody was
14 interrogated, and if it was proved that they did not take part in the
15 fighting, they would be released. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, that is what happened.
17 Q. And then in paragraph 36, Colonel Popovic says:
18 "I would have been very happy if I were in a possibility to
19 fulfill all the conditions stipulated under the Geneva Conventions."
20 So that, in fact, is a joint desire expressed by the camp
21 commander and yourself, that you would be very happy to have been able to
22 comply with all the Geneva Conventions stipulations; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And later on, further down, he says when the camp was established
25 and under whose command it is. And moving on to the next page, he says
1 that the camp was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska
2 and -- well, Republika Srpska; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now may we focus on law and order in the camp. And you said the
5 conditions more or less correspond to your impressions; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. May we go on to the next page, please. In paragraph 39 --
8 A. Forty-nine.
9 Q. Yes, I apologise. I need the previous page.
10 An expert in nutrition was due to arrive to establish the camp
11 requirements and to establish the aid needed by the ICRC. Do you
12 remember that a nutritionist came into Manjaca and that after his visit
13 the quantity and quality of food improved?
14 A. Yes. A nutritionist was there every day from 9.00 to 5.00 p.m.
15 She was there with an interpreter. She walked freely around the camp
16 without anybody's control, police or otherwise. And this took place at
17 the end of July and went on to the end of September or, rather, for as
18 long as the camp was in existence. And after that, the food improved
19 significantly. And thanks to the ICRC, which brought in food in trailers
20 from Zagreb
21 Q. Let's move back to page 3 to look at paragraph 12, please. That
22 addresses POWs and their work activities, and it says that under
23 Articles 50 and 51 of the Geneva Conventions, the conditions of work are
24 stipulated; that is to say, that POWs did not take part in trench-digging
25 or were not supposed to be exposed to dangerous conditions in the war
1 zone, and that, in principle, there was less work for the POWs to do than
2 they were willing to do.
3 A. Yes. The POWs from Manjaca, not a single one were used for war
4 purposes, that is to say, digging trenches, setting up human shields, or
5 anything like that, but just for socially-beneficial work, and this was
6 on a voluntary basis. And, in fact, more POWs volunteered to go out and
7 do work than were actually required and used.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with that document
9 now, please, so may it be given an exhibit number, if there are no
11 MS. KORNER: Can I just go back to the last document, the manual,
12 for a moment. Obviously, we're at a disadvantage, as we -- I imagine you
13 have no idea what any of this says. But is this -- could we confirm that
14 this is all part of one manual, both sections?
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the document is
16 already an exhibit in the Popovic trial, and I can provide it to you.
17 I can bring the integral text, the integral manual, so you can have a
18 look at it. It would be difficult for me to locate just that portion.
19 I think we have it in the library downstairs. But I'll bring in the
20 entire manual. That's why I asked that it be marked for identification.
21 Once it's been translated, you can see the whole thing.
22 MS. KORNER: I'd be very grateful for the whole manual, if that's
23 possible. Thank you.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 -- the present document having been tendered and entered as an exhibit.
1 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D33, Your Honours.
4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a set of documents in which you
6 described individual incidents that took place in the POW camp and its
7 surroundings. You recorded them meticulously, and you reacted to them.
8 Now, what I would like to say to you, I'm talking about five or
9 six documents describing these incidents. However, beyond these reports
10 of yours, I have an impression that these were isolated incidents that
11 were responded to and an action was taken in accordance with the Rules of
12 Service, at least by yourself?
13 A. Yes, exactly. Whatever I learned about and what I thought was
14 either illegal or contrary to the rules, I recorded that and reported
15 that, but not for the purpose of reporting alone, but for responding to
17 Q. And outside of the reports that you wrote, no other incidents
18 took place, or maybe you don't know about them?
19 A. I don't know about them. If I had known, I would have written
20 about them.
21 Q. Bearing in mind these incidents in the prisoners of war camp, the
22 expression that we heard in this court, such as "concentration camp" or
23 "death camp" or "killing camp," is rather untrue; is that right?
24 A. I don't know. We were attacked very much for the very word
25 "camp." I think that in our rules and regulations, even in the ones
1 we've seen today, there was a rule which provided that for housing POWs,
2 one needs to set up a camp. Now, if someone is confusing a concentration
3 camp with a POW camp, it's not our fault. We even had an inscription in
4 the camp which says that this was a POW camp. No one can ever call it a
5 death camp, because 4.403 prisoners went through this camp. There were
6 only five deaths. Two of them were violent deaths, and three were the
7 deaths caused by natural causes. If you, on that basis, can call this
8 camp a death camp, then these are people who are entertaining prejudices.
9 Q. To the best of your knowledge, the Manjaca camp, if compared
10 according to the information that you had about the POWs from the Serbian
11 side or the Muslim side or coming from other centres, the Manjaca camp in
12 the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, where there was war, I think
13 that in that camp one can say that the conditions are best.
14 A. If we compared this camp that I have knowledge about, and one can
15 freely say that if we try to measure the level of regularity in the camp,
16 the Manjaca camp can be qualified as the most regular and regulated ones.
17 This might sound strange to someone.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note, could the witness and
19 counsel please speak more slowly and pause between questions and answers.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 the witness to allow an interval to facilitate the translation.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, you're right.
24 Due to this overlapping, there is no distinction in the transcript
25 between the question and answer. So please be patient with me. It was
1 my mistake. I was too hasty in putting the question.
2 So from page 26, line 6, is where the answer begins, after the
3 words "if you compare this camp that I have knowledge about." So this is
4 where the witness's answer begins, and before that was my question.
5 I apologise to the interpreters and the Chamber. I will do my
6 best to slow down, not because time is elapsing, but I will try to bring
7 this to an end as soon as possible.
8 Q. Sir, you said that as far as you know, the majority of the POWs
9 had been brought by the police, but you didn't have information at that
10 time who arrested or captured them; isn't that right?
11 A. No, I didn't have that information.
12 Q. I'm going to show you now a document which is Exhibit 5390.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P390.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, it's my mistake. I
15 apologise to the interpreters. I didn't pronounce the first word quite
17 Q. Sir, I don't think that you had an opportunity to see this
18 document. Therefore, I kindly ask you to look at it or, rather, item D
19 of this document. But before that, can we look at page 2 to see who
20 signed this document. You can see that this was signed by the chief of
21 the Public Security Station, Mirko Vrucinic. This was the SJB in
22 Sanski Most; is that right?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. You have heard of him, but you never met him?
25 A. That's right. This is what is written here. I don't know
1 anything about this document because it had been drafted before I came to
2 Manjaca and Banja Luka --
3 Q. This was the 5th of August, 1992. Let's go back to page 1 now,
4 please. So let's go back to page 1.
5 MS. KORNER: I'm just going to interrupt for a moment, because
6 the witness says he's never seen the document before, he doesn't know
7 about the contents, what's he supposed to say about it, other than, I can
8 see what's written?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to show to
10 the witness only one paragraph of this document, and this is already an
11 exhibit. I was just going to ask the witness whether he's aware of the
12 fact contained in this single paragraph.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you please look at paragraph D. In this paragraph, it says
17 "In combat operations or so-called clearing operations, the army
18 picks up the population (of late only persons fit for military service),
19 and simply hands them over to the civilian organs and authorities. After
20 that, the police are obliged to provide security for these camps, and as
21 part of that, are responsible for food, health-care, hygiene, and the
23 Sir, just one question. Do you know that in those operations in
24 combat zones, military units herded the population and brought them in,
25 the population that was in a combat zone?
1 A. In principle, yes. I would like for us to stand corrected. I
2 didn't know that this was August. I was there in June. What you asked
3 me about, whether I knew if that was being done and that these people
4 were handed over to the police, in principle I know that that was the
5 procedure that was applied.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at
7 Exhibit P382.
8 Q. Sir, before we see this document on our screens, you mentioned
9 that during the take-over these prisoners were brought in by the police.
10 In fact, you were the one who received all the notes and the lists from
11 the policemen who escorted the transports; is that right?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And now I'm going to show you a document relating to the
14 transportation to Manjaca, and it speaks about who is taking part in
15 that. I kindly ask you to read this document carefully. You can see
16 here who is providing escort for the POWs. The second sentence reads:
17 "Three members of the prison premises, three members of the
18 Public Security Station, and four members of the military police provided
20 Do you know, and I underline "do you know," whether military
21 police and security guards of the camp took part in escort?
22 A. Yes, I didn't give you a decisive answer either yesterday or
23 today, which is that in all cases the POWs were escorted by the police.
24 However, when we had to deal with a large number of POWs who were moved
25 from one camp to another, they normally came escorted by the police.
1 However, when we had smaller groups coming from the front, which is to
2 say, genuine fresh POWs, they were brought in by the military police, and
3 they provided escort during transportation. So I don't rule out that
4 these were also military policemen at the head of the column.
5 Q. Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's question, and the
6 Prosecutor showed you a document about the release of persons under the
7 age of 18 and over 60, at one point you said that a group of prisoners
8 was handed over to the Merhamet because they were the only ones ready to
9 receive them. Do you remember that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. The problem that you highlighted in a few of your reports with
12 the release of these categories of people for whom it has been
13 established that were under the ages of 18 and over the age of 60, had no
14 place to return to for various reasons?
15 A. Yes, that's right, and that was a problem.
16 Q. From what I could see from various documents, the problem with
17 them was because some of them had been living and had residence in the
18 houses that were still in the areas where combat operations were in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, secondly, due to war operations or due to the clearing of
22 the terrain, some of their houses were ruined; is that right?
23 A. Yes, there were cases like that.
24 Q. And they had no place to return to?
25 A. That's right.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 convenient point, Mr. Krgovic.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 [Witness stands down]
6 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, one of
9 the documents that Mr. Krgovic showed, he asked me whether it should be
10 under seal. That's the conversation with Colonel Popovic. It's been an
11 exhibit in previous trials, and I am not, at this stage, sure whether it
12 was under seal or not. It's because of the provider. Can I just, for
13 safety's sake, I think, at this stage say that that document, whatever
14 the number was, should be under seal, and if it was all right to have it
15 not under seal, well, then we'll come back to you on that.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 THE REGISTRAR: I was informed by Defence counsel that
18 Exhibit 2D33 should be under seal.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, that's the one we're [microphone not
20 activated]... discussing, but I'm not sure about that, that's all.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE HALL
24 respectfully remind you to bear in mind the interpreters.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes. I'll do my best, Your Honour.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'll continue where we left off before the
2 break. Let me remind you, I was talking about the reasons for which
3 there were problems for persons under the age of 18 and over the age of
4 60 to be released from the POW camp, and I listed some of the reasons why
5 this was sometimes difficult, reasons that I read from relevant
6 documents. So I'd like you to confirm or not confirm this, or you've
7 already done that.
8 Anyway, the area from which these POWs came in from, to a large
9 extent, was void of the population because the population had left
10 certain areas because of combat, and that's where these POWs were coming
11 from; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So in that area, there was a lot of insecurity because of some
14 groups that were rampant in the area, so it was a threat to their
15 security to stay on in those places; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what happened was, in many cases, that some people would be
18 released, they went to areas of this kind, and they were either abused
19 there or killed there. That happened, too; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So all that constituted the reasons for which -- among other
22 reasons, of course, for which their release was prolonged, which took a
23 long -- for which it took a long time to have them to be released from
24 the camp; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, you also spoke about the fact that in the POW camp, there
2 were a number of imams, religious figures?
3 A. Yes, I think there were four imams and a priest, a friar.
4 Q. And they were released among the first lot, although it was
5 established, in actual fact, that some of them had taken part in combat
6 and bore arms; right?
7 A. Yes, there was some information to that effect, that a hodja, I
8 don't know which one -- that an automatic rifle was found on a hodja in a
9 mosque. But as far as these religious personnel were concerned, the
10 decision was made to release them, and I think they were released and
11 handed over to the main imam in Banja Luka.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have Exhibit P484 shown to
13 the witness now, please, and put up on our screens.
14 Q. Look at the last paragraph there, please. And can we zoom in to
15 it. That's your report, is it not?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. And these religious persons are described here, one of whom had a
18 weapon in a mosque, and another pulled out an automatic weapon from a
19 vehicle, et cetera, et cetera, as it says here. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's what it says clearly there.
21 Q. One of the reasons why everything was running late in this
22 respect was that for those people under the age of 18 and over the age of
23 60 and the sick, it was established that they, in fact, possessed weapons
24 and had taken part in combat, so an abolition needed to be gone through
25 there; is that right?
1 A. Yes. President Karadzic abolished those people that had to go
2 elsewhere for treatment, so an act on abolition was passed.
3 Q. Now another question. When describing your activities, you said
4 that you could only propose certain measures, whether to the camp
5 commander or your superior command, with respect to the release of people
6 from the camp, whereas the final decision was taken by the organ that was
7 superior to Colonel Popovic; is that right?
8 A. That's what I said, and that's how it was.
9 Q. Right. Now look at Exhibit P489, please. Take a look at what it
10 says at the bottom of that page, the signature and everything else. And
11 this refers to persons under the age of 18, and the decision that they
12 can be released was okayed by Colonel Vukelic.
13 A. Yes, Colonel Vukelic was assistant commander, co-commander for
14 morale, and, as such, he was able to bring in a decision of this kind
15 releasing them from the camp, giving his permission for that.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Corps commander.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just check to see if I have
18 anything further to raise. I apologise to the Trial Chamber for taking
19 up time.
20 Q. One more question. As far as you know, in view of the duties
21 that you performed, after the people were released and exchanged, the
22 POWs, from Manjaca, that immediately afterwards they took part in combat
23 operations on the other side and that some of them were taken prisoner
24 again and even set up some sort of 17th Knights Brigade or whatever it
25 was called, but that they were captured again immediately upon their
1 release from the camp because they had taken part in combat?
2 A. Yes. With the help of the ICRC and the Serbian authorities, we
3 released persons in three groups, the first being on the 14th of
4 November, and the other groups were subsequently released on the 12th --
5 or, rather, the 14th, 16th, and 18th of December. Every other day, they
6 were released. Groups were released every other day until the whole camp
7 was disbanded and released.
8 And now people were interested in hearing what had happened to
9 these people -- I apologise, I'm speeding up, so sorry to the
11 Anyway, they were all supposed to go to so-called third
12 countries, so not any of the former SFRY republics but to third
13 countries. Mostly, they went to Germany
14 requested to go, in fact. But in that first stage of their departure,
15 which was Karlovac after Manjaca, many expressed the desire to go back to
16 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and joined up with the armed forces
17 again there. Now, I can't remember the names and surnames of these
18 people or how many people, but a certain number was recaptured, they were
19 captured again. And I think they should have recalled my words, many of
20 them, when I said that perhaps Manjaca was their salvation, because had
21 they stayed at home, they would have perhaps been killed up at the
22 front-line, fighting, whereas in Manjaca their lives would have been
23 saved and were saved.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further
25 questions for you.
1 That completes my cross-examination.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MS. KORNER: Sorry, can I ask that -- the exhibit that I said if
4 we could have under seal for caution's sake, we've checked. It wasn't
5 under seal in the other trials, so there's no objection to it being an
6 ordinary exhibit in the case.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
11 Pages 5364-5369 redacted by court order.
2 Q. Witness --
3 JUDGE HALL
4 respectfully agree, is that it is easy to draw inferences from these
5 questions that you were asking which would result in the identification
6 of the witness.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 5371-5384 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 Mr. Cvijetic at some point, and we just remained in private session.
2 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I was just waiting. I didn't hear you say.
3 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
4 Q. Sir, you were asked by Mr. Krgovic to look at a list of what was
5 defined as a prisoner of war in some kind of military police manual, and
6 one of the definitions in the manual, as opposed to any of the
7 Geneva Conventions, was:
8 "Members of the population rising up to fight the enemy."
9 What do you understand by the term "fight"?
10 A. I cannot understand it otherwise than that it has to do with an
11 armed combat.
12 Q. So we're talking, are we, about somebody armed with a weapon,
13 carrying out combat, if you like, against, in this case, the Army of the
14 Republika Srpska?
15 A. Yes, that's so. Our Law on the All People's Defence envisaged a
16 transition from wartime to wartime system; therefore, a state of war.
17 And "combat," as you put it, or "fight" could be slightly different.
18 "Fighting" means fighting with weapons. However, taking part in a war
19 can also involve companies or enterprises continuing their operation
20 during the war for the purposes of war efforts.
21 Q. Yes. I want you to have a look, please, again at the document
22 you saw yesterday, which is now Exhibit P487.
23 I remind you of what you told the Court yesterday, in relation to
24 this report, that they are being brought in massively, in large
25 quantities, particularly from Kljuc and Sanski Most, bringing in those
1 who shouldn't be treated as prisoners of war because they've been picked
2 up from their homes and off their fields, and individuals who are older
3 than 60 and younger than 18.
4 When you wrote those words, as you told the Court they were true,
5 do those persons, in your view, come within the definition of fighting
7 A. I wrote it in that way because I perceived it in that way through
8 interviews with them. I had no other documents at my disposal. I found
9 out, according to their statements, that they had been picked up from
10 their houses following an invitation for them to assemble at a certain
11 point. I wrote this in order to give an incentive to the command to
12 cease such a practice, particularly because we were again receiving
13 people under the age of 18 and over the age of 60. This is why I wrote
14 this in this way.
15 MS. KORNER: Can we go into private session for a moment, please.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 [Private session]
11 Page 5388 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I've only got about another -- well,
20 if you feel we ought to take the break. But can I, for the purposes of
21 the end of this, say that I've only got about another 10 minutes' worth.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 [The witness stands down]
24 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I just note for the purposes of
3 the transcript that I've been joined by Ms. Pidwell on behalf of the
5 Q. Sir, you were asked questions about Dr. Sabanovic which arose out
6 of the questions that you were asked by me in chief; namely, whether
7 Dr. Sabanovic, who was on the list of the most radical extremists in the
8 area of Sanski Most, and I asked you, just so we get the exact quote,
9 page 5278 of the transcript:
10 "Was there anything about his conversations or anything about
11 what you learned about him to suggest that he was, as described, the most
12 radical -- one of the most radical extremists?"
13 And you said:
14 "Not that I could see."
15 And you were then asked whether you knew that he had signed
16 certificates, effectively fake certificates, exempting Muslims from
17 conscription during the war in Croatia
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And a theory was put to you that by signing these exemption
20 certificates, effectively he had been aiding -- I'll just get the right
21 question, the actual question -- that he was assisting armed insurgents,
22 which Judge Delvoie queried that. A series of propositions was put to
23 you, ending up with this one:
24 "On the other hand, those persons who failed to respond to
25 mobilisation in the JNA joined the paramilitary formations for the Croat
1 and Muslim forces."
2 And you agreed with that. How do you know that the people who
3 had been exempted from military service by means of these certificates
4 all went off and joined the paramilitary formations?
5 A. All that was hypothetical, both the question and the answer, let
6 me say. I don't have any specific information telling me that any of the
7 people that Sabanovic released or exempted went to enemy formations, to
8 the enemy, the adversary. But hypothetically speaking, you can deduce
9 that and conclude that, because where would they go? But I don't have
10 any specific information. So in answer to your question, I don't
11 specifically have any information about anybody joining up with the enemy
12 forces of the ones released by Sabanovic.
13 Q. And let's return to the original topic. I don't know what's
14 meant by "radical extremists," but as a matter of common sense it would
15 be somebody who was espousing violent resistance to the take-over of
16 areas by the Bosnian Serb forces. Did anything in the conversations that
17 you had over a long period of time, some eight or so -- well, some
18 months, with Dr. Sabanovic suggest that he was the type of person who was
19 doing that?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: I object for that -- first, the basis, did this
21 witness make conversation with Sabanovic? That was the first question.
22 MS. KORNER: I thought it had been quite clear. All right, I'll
23 go back.
24 Q. In the period of time that Dr. Sabanovic was the doctor in the
25 camp and formed part of the reception committee, did you have
1 conversations with Dr. Sabanovic?
2 A. Yes, on many occasions.
3 Q. Thank you. So the original question: Anything in his
4 conversation or anything about him to suggest that he was espousing
5 violent resistance to the take-overs?
6 A. No, I didn't have that information either from the notes -- even
7 if there were some SUP
8 remember quite what they said, but apparently he gave some injections to
9 Serb children, something that was extremely important in deducing whether
10 he's an extremist or not. But this was information that was not
11 substantiated with any proof or evidence.
12 Q. My actual question is, is your personal impression of him, sir,
13 from the many conversations that you had with him. That's what I'm
14 asking for.
15 A. The impression is, and according to the information that I
16 had that--
17 Q. Forget -- all right. Yes, go on. Yes, carry on.
18 A. As I was saying, I couldn't rank him among the group of
19 extremists. I couldn't really say he was that.
20 Q. Yes, thank you.
21 Now, next you said, when Mr. Krgovic was taking you through --
22 and, I'm sorry, I should have asked you this earlier. When you met
23 Mr. Krgovic originally in Bosnia
24 I believe, Tuesday evening -- Wednesday evening, did you discuss -- did
25 he discuss with you the questions that he was going to ask you?
1 A. He enumerated the topics that he would be dealing with and the
2 rules or, rather, the rule that holds true here. He showed me that, and
3 that's it. I don't know what else you might be referring to, what you
5 Q. Well, a number of these questions, if I can put it this way, sir,
6 and it's a matter for the Trial Chamber, you answered fairly swiftly,
7 without much time for pausing, and agreed with nearly every proposition
8 that was put to you, and so I'm just wondering whether or not these were
9 discussed with you when you met him.
10 A. Not about everything, but it was logic that it was involved here
11 and the knowledge I had performing my duties, in the line of duty and my
12 service for over all those years, so I don't need to think about it.
13 That's a fact.
14 Q. Well, I want to ask you about one answer you gave when you were
15 being shown the record of a conversation with Colonel Popovic conducted
16 by Mr. McLeod from what was then called the European Community Monitoring
18 and it was put to you that under the given circumstances, everything
19 possible was done for the prisoners in the camp. And you said:
20 "Yes, and I'd like to ask everybody dealing with this issue to
21 bear in mind," although the word "bear" has been missed out from page 20,
22 line 3, "the time and the context in which the camp and existed."
23 "So on your part," said Mr. Krgovic, "on the camp administration
24 beginning with the order, et cetera, it was never their intention or,
25 rather, they were not intentionally faced with a food shortage or
1 difficult conditions; isn't that right?"
2 And you said:
3 "Yes, precisely. Nobody -- I never experienced anybody in the
4 command, from the Presidency of the Republika Srpska down to the guard,
5 that any of these people ever had the intention of making it difficult
6 for the prisoners of war or people coming into the camp by keeping them
7 hungry or trying to liquidate them."
8 Now, firstly, did you ever see any orders from the Presidency of
9 the Republika Srpska in connection with the camps, other than the
10 internationals being allowed in there?
14 (redacted) I understood that there was nobody
15 down the chain of command who had the aim of, let me put it this way,
16 massive sufferance or annihilation of the people in the camp, so I didn't
17 want to take part in a game like that either. And I even thought that if
18 anything like that happened that I would leave, although I would be held
19 criminally responsible, because according to the law orders which ordered
20 you to commit crimes need not be heeded, so you could refuse to obey an
21 order if the order involved committing a crime.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers]... in this part of page 66,
23 line 9 and 10, must be redacted because --
24 MS. KORNER: Thank you, yes.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Krgovic.
2 Q. What was the condition of the Omarska prisoners when they arrived
3 at Manjaca?
4 MR. KRGOVIC: I don't think that I raised this issue in my
6 MS. KORNER: It arises out of the answer that there was no, as it
7 were, common plan to starve or make life difficult.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: But in Manjaca.
9 MS. KORNER: That's not what the witness said.
10 Q. Sir, what was the condition of the prisoners from Omarska when
11 they arrived at Manjaca?
12 A. They looked -- seemed under-nourished, not well cared for. And I
13 have to add that what I was thinking of was the treatment of prisoners at
14 Manjaca, because I never went to Keraterm or Prijedor, in that camp
15 there, so I meant Manjaca.
16 Q. All right. Well, can we just have a look then briefly, please,
17 at one document which you've seen, but we didn't refer to it in
18 examination-in-chief, on Manjaca, itself. Could you have a look, please,
19 at document P179.13.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to object to
21 this document and this line of questioning because this is a document
22 from the ICRC, and I did not mention it in my cross-examination. I made
23 no mention of any commission or any report from the ICRC, nor do I know
24 how -- where this line of questioning is going or how this document can
25 be used in this redirect. But if the Trial Chamber allows the Prosecutor
1 to ask questions on this document, then I should like to ask time for
2 additional questioning so that I, in my turn, can ask the witness about
3 this and other documents which I also did not use.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Mr. Krgovic, sorry, opened this line of
6 questioning through his cross-examination on the -- full
7 cross-examination on the document of the conversation that Mr. McLeod had
8 with Colonel Popovic, in which the colonel put his side of matters to
9 Mr. McLeod. The conversation then moved on to the question and answer
10 that I have just dealt with in which it is said that there was no --
11 anybody in command from the president of Republika Srpska down, that any
12 of the people ever had the intention of making it difficult for the POWs
13 or keeping them hungry. This report is directly attributable to that
14 line of cross-examination.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 better expression, spill-over, aren't you inviting the prolongation of
17 this by Mr. Krgovic having to deal with -- be given leave to deal with
18 these matters again?
19 MS. KORNER: No. Mr. Krgovic should have thought of that before
20 he embarked on the line of questioning and should have dealt with it
21 himself, because it was perfectly obvious that this is something that's
22 going to be dealt with in re-examination. So the fact that he decided to
23 ignore the document which was in our list, but because it was already at
24 that exhibit I went over it, that's the decision he took, and he's stuck
25 with it.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I did not deal
4 with this document because the Prosecutor chose to ignore the document
5 during the examination-in-chief, so that was precisely the reason why I
6 failed to deal with it. Now, if you allow the Prosecutor to ask
7 questions about this document which he or she intentionally side-stepped
8 during in-chief, then I'd like to ask questions about this and two other
9 documents linked to this document. But because of the shortage of time
10 and because the Prosecutor did not deal with it during the
11 examination-in-chief, I did not address the matter in cross-examination
13 MS. KORNER: Sorry, sorry, can I respond?
14 JUDGE HALL
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE HALL
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this document is already an exhibit in
18 the case. The fact that, through reasons of timing, I didn't deal with
19 it personally with this witness is one thing. But if Defence counsel
20 deliberately adopts a line of questioning which could be said to be
21 misleading - and in our submission is because he concentrated on the
22 conversation that Mr. McLeod had with Colonel Popovic, and Your Honour
23 will hear about that, from the witness at a later date - he can't then
24 complain if a document that's already an exhibit in the case and which
25 has been looked at is then referred to in re-examination to correct a
1 misleading impression. And shouldn't be allowed, I'm afraid, in our
2 submission, to have another go at it. He took the decision, only to put
3 it -- ask about that document and not about the document that says the
4 very opposite.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Might I just be allowed to respond,
7 and I'll sit down.
8 The witness, when he was shown the document here, it was a
9 document criticising that -- well, he said that the document was biased
10 and did not contain all the facts. And my line of questioning would be
11 to show the witness this document and the document that he wrote in which
12 he speaks about this first document. That's all.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 for proceeding in the manner in which they have up to this point in
15 relation to this document, in terms of the -- in order for the Chamber to
16 have the benefit of all of the relevant evidence, I'm going to allow
17 Ms. Korner to proceed, and I would have to, in fairness, allow
18 Mr. Krgovic to return to this briefly. Yes.
19 MS. KORNER: All right.
20 Q. This is a document, sir, that you looked at during the course of
21 your review of the documents in the case, and, indeed, we have already
22 referred to the letter, and it is an exhibit that you wrote about this.
23 However, can we look at what is said for the first time that the ICRC get
24 to the camp. And this is letter they sent to -- it was dated the 22nd of
25 July and was sent to the president of the republic.
1 MS. KORNER: Can we look, please, at page 2 -- sorry, page 2,
2 it's the third -- my fault. It's the one, two, three -- fifth page in
3 English. It's the actual report, and it is -- it's -- I don't know.
4 It's page 0124-6849 at the top. And we've got neither up at the moment.
5 Oh, we actually do. I'm not sure what the English document is, but it's
6 not -- I want the English of that, please, which is, as I say, the fourth
7 page -- fifth page. I don't know what you've got up on there, but that's
8 not it. The English should -- you've got the B/C/S. The English looks
9 like that [indicates]. All right, it doesn't matter. Give me that page,
10 I'll -- 0124-6846, please.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MS. KORNER: So I've just been told by the usher, and we're going
13 to put it up on Sanction.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MS. KORNER: Yes, all right. In fact, it's also -- they sent --
16 in the B/C/S, they sent a copy of the English paper.
17 Do you have, in Sanction, 0124-6846?
18 Your Honour, I'm sorry about the ten minutes, but it's going to
19 be causing -- it's mixed in with the B/C/S, I think. It's page 6 of the
20 B/C/S. So if we can have page -- the page we've got up already in B/C/S,
21 plus page 6. It's all mixed up together. That's why I think it's --
22 right. Finally. Thank you.
23 Q. All right. This is the working paper that was sent to
24 Mr. Karadzic. It's the visit to, paragraph 2, "Treatment."
25 "The ICRC visit was terminated prematurely, 12.15, when delegates
1 observed that two detainees had been subjected to ill treatment during
2 the visit."
3 I don't think that means they were beaten up during the visit,
4 but just bad grammar:
5 "All eight delegates present in camp observed on detainees
6 frequent and widespread traces of recent and often severe beatings; those
7 most often were fresh hematomas inflicted in a time-period since arrival
8 at Manjaca."
9 "3. Material conditions. General living conditions with regard
10 to food, hygiene, clothing and accommodation," quality that must be, not
11 qualify, "are absolutely insufficient.
12 "Many detainees show marked weight loss and signs of anaemia with
13 severity often corresponding to length of detention."
14 And then it deals with the facilities.
15 Now, sir, this visit was in July, before the Omarska prisoners or
16 the prisoners from Keraterm arrived, isn't it?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. And so the signs of beatings and/or malnourishment, and the food
19 and hygiene, related to conditions or related to people who had not come
20 from either of those two camps?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And you told us, yourself, in your earlier testimony that there
23 were beatings in the camp?
24 A. Yes, there were.
25 Q. And even though, as you told us when we looked at your letter --
1 your report about this, which I think we've already exhibited -- I can't
2 remember what the number is now, but anyhow --
3 MR. KRGOVIC: P490.
4 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
5 Can we have that up? Perhaps we can come down the page a bit.
6 Q. You said there:
7 "As far as the beatings are concerned, that is correct, although
8 it is hard to ascertain when they were created, whether in the camp or
9 before their arrival, i.e., during arrest."
10 So you accept that on that part, that report of the ICRC is
11 accurate; is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Which part, Your Honour?
15 MS. KORNER: In respect of the beatings.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, but can you read the right part, because it's
17 a leading question.
18 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm perfectly happy to put up any other part
19 of the letter that Mr. Krgovic would like me to -- the report, rather.
20 All right, can we move on? And then you've been given
21 permission, Mr. Krgovic, in any event, as I understand it.
22 Q. And it's right, isn't it, sir, that in July, before the ICRC
23 arrived, the food and the hygiene and --
24 MR. KRGOVIC: Objection. Leading.
25 MS. KORNER:
1 Q. Do you agree with the report that we've just looked at, that the
2 general living conditions with regard to food, hygiene, clothing,
3 accommodation, are grossly insufficient -- were grossly and absolutely
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And, sir, finally on this -- on this aspect, you were asked a
7 number of leading questions, quite properly because it's
8 cross-examination, about the war-torn areas, if I can put that, from
9 which some of these people came, and you seemed to agree that these
10 people had been brought in to Manjaca because it was unsafe for them to
11 remain in the area; in other words, they were being brought in for their
12 own protection. Is that really what you're telling the Court, that a
13 number of these people were being kept in this camp in these conditions
14 for their own protection?
15 A. I emphasised that in one of my reports; that is to say, that for
16 a number of prisoners, there was no evidence of participation, and they
17 were brought there just to bring them to safety. That is what I put in
18 my report, and we discussed that yesterday. As far as today's Defence
19 examination is concerned, we spoke about the return of the prisoners
20 under the age of 18 and over 60, and we said that it was impossible for
21 them to return because their places of residence were already vacated,
22 and therefore they had no place to return to. So we have two different
23 instances. I don't know which one you're referring to in your question.
24 Q. Let's just deal with the people, who you seem to be agreeing
25 with, who had been picked up off the fields, taken from their homes, and
1 brought to Manjaca. Are you saying that these people had only been
2 brought to Manjaca for their own protection? Is that what you're saying
3 to this Court now?
4 A. That's right, and that's what I put in one of my reports, and I
5 abide by that.
6 Q. And what was the justification, sir, for keeping them in a
7 prisoner of war camp in those conditions?
8 A. It's not up to me to say that. I just noted that in order to
9 encourage the decision-makers to do something in terms of either
10 exchanging these people or releasing the prisoners. So that was the
11 purpose of what I wrote, and that is how I understood it.
12 Q. Well, I think we'd better know finally, then, sir, what you are
13 saying. Are you saying that in your opinion, it was proper procedure for
14 people who had taken no part in any kind of armed rebellion to be brought
15 to the camp and kept there for months for their own protection?
16 A. Precisely so.
17 Q. That's what you say, is it, sir?
18 A. That's what I am saying.
19 MS. KORNER: Well, in that case, sir, I don't think I've got any
20 further questions for you.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 be allowed to return to this ICRC document, you mentioned two other
23 documents. How do they -- how does this permission allow you to deal
24 with these further documents?
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to deal
1 with these two documents. I'm only going to ask a question that is
2 relevant for that. I'm not going to show the documents to the witness.
3 I'll just put two questions because these two documents are linked with
4 this document. If the witness gives me an answer concerning this
5 document, then I'm not going to ask him questions about the other two
6 documents or, rather, I'm not going to mention these two documents.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic.
9 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, during proofing the Prosecution showed you
10 this ICRC document; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you asked on that occasion what you thought about the
13 objectivity of this report, and did you express some objections of
14 yourself to this report?
15 A. Yes, but at the moment I cannot say for certain what I said
17 Q. On that occasion, and that can be drawn as an inference from the
18 other document shown to you, which is P490, Colonel Vukelic and -- as the
19 camp commander, and yourself, pointed out that these allegations about
20 the conditions were unbased and unfounded, and they promised to amend
21 their report by incorporating your objections. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. However, they did not correct their report; is that right?
24 A. Yes. After Vukelic's and Popovic's reactions, they did amend
25 certain things, but that only remained orally. No written report was
1 amended to that effect.
2 Q. And these objections related to the conditions prevailing in the
3 camp and the fact that it wasn't established when these injuries were
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Whether during the capture or in the camp itself?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And Colonel Vukelic, in his report, which was shown to you by the
9 Prosecution, demonstrated that they didn't draft their report by adopting
10 an unbiased approach and that they had exaggerated the conditions in
11 Manjaca, and that was the essence of the objections raised by yourself
12 and Colonel Vukelic?
13 A. Yes, that's right, and also the context of the whole situation
14 was not taken into account. Popovic explained that earlier, and it had
15 been seen from this document. Quite simply, the camp and the prisoners
16 virtually shared the destiny of the people and the military personnel at
17 the time.
18 Q. And they did not acknowledge an objective remark that the
19 prisoners were given everything that was possible at the time that you
20 had at your disposal?
21 A. Yes, we made great efforts to improve the situation and to reach
22 the level that would be adapted to the given situation and the
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Your Honours, I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to correct one
3 of my mistakes, in the system of the three interconnected orders, and
4 having to do with the same topic, the witness gave most of his answers
5 with relation to the last one, which I didn't tender to be admitted into
6 evidence, and the intention was to present them all together. Since you
7 admitted into evidence the first two ones, I also tender document 1443
8 according to 65 ter to be admitted into evidence.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1D157, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 the Tribunal, and you are now released. The usher would escort you from
13 the courtroom, because the Chamber has other matters with which to deal
14 before it rises. We wish you a safe journey back to your home.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 memorandum over the signature of Ms. Pidwell, indicating the matters --
19 the list of five matters, and they've consulted the Defence in terms of
20 the content of the list. And dealing with the first item, I suppose this
21 is the Prosecution means of alerting the Chamber that the appropriate
22 motion will be made in due course.
23 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour, it was not our intention to file
24 any motion in respect of a site visit. We simply put it onto our list.
25 If Your Honours felt that it would be useful for you to see, if not all,
1 at least some of the areas in real life, then the Defence and Prosecution
2 are in agreement that we feel it may well be useful, if I can put it that
3 way. We have no intention of filing a motion and adding to the already
4 lengthy list of motions. This is -- can I put it, this is an agreed, as
5 it were, application by the Defence, if Your Honours felt it was
7 JUDGE HALL
8 that the initiative should come from counsel rather than from the
9 Chamber. We are probably agreed in the result. It's only a question of,
10 for whatever reason, from whom the initiative should come. We don't --
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the initiative is coming jointly from
12 Prosecution and Defence counsel, but we really don't feel that it
13 requires another motion. We feel -- can I put it this way, and I'm sure
14 I'll be corrected by Defence counsel if I put it inadequately or wrongly,
15 that it may well be of assistance to Your Honours if Your Honours say so,
16 if you see what I mean. It's a matter for Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 motion, do I understand the position to be that you are now so moving?
19 MS. KORNER: Exactly.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MS. KORNER: Sorry. I thought you meant yet another written
22 motion. We are -- we are making the application for Your Honours to
23 undertake a site visit, the organisation of which is quite complicated,
24 so it needs to be worked out in advance, so that Your Honours may see for
25 yourselves the actual areas that this case is concerned with, or at least
1 some of them.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 moved, so moved, and counsel for the Defence not object --
4 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I believe Ms. Korner explained that it is a
6 joint application by both Defence and the Prosecution.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 your position.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours. I'm sorry.
10 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct, Your Honours. Just for the
11 record, we are also concurring with this application.
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officers confer]
13 JUDGE HALL
14 Chamber would need to know where it is proposed that the site visit take
15 us. But the motion having been made in open court, the Chamber would
16 formally rule at the appropriate time. But we understand the joint
17 position of both sides in this regard. Thank you.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I have a feeling that to cover every
19 single municipality would be a fairly lengthy and difficult task, so
20 I think the best thing is that the Defence and Prosecution sit down
21 together and work out which of the municipalities which we feel you
22 should see. I mean, the ARK
23 but the others are more widespread. But, Your Honour, if we can get back
24 to you with an agreed list.
25 JUDGE HALL
1 As regards item 2, outstanding motions, we thank you for the
2 lists that we got a few hours ago, and these matters would be -- are all
3 in process, and the rulings would -- there is nothing that we can
4 practically say today.
5 MS. KORNER: I understand that, Your Honours. And I know this is
6 a recurring theme, particularly from me, but I'm afraid I must ask
7 Your Honours to rule today on the Prosecution's motion for safe conduct
8 for Witness ST-187 which was filed on the 23rd of December, and it's
9 consented to. There's no objection from the Defence.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 made today or, by the latest, on Monday.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes. And, Your Honour, in relation to that -- to
13 the outstanding matters, can I just make one observation. It's the
14 adjudicated facts as against -- which have been granted in respect of
15 Stanisic, but have not yet been granted, if they're going to be, as
16 against Zupljanin. And the difficulty with not having a ruling is that
17 it raises the question of what evidence the Prosecution will be obliged
18 to call. And the longer this is outstanding, the more complicated it
19 becomes, because we're dealing with municipalities now where we're not
20 calling -- for example, Kljuc, we're calling very little evidence because
21 of the adjudicated facts, but they've only been granted as against
22 Stanisic, and Kljuc really affects Zupljanin more than it does Stanisic,
23 to a great extent.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 which is very labour intensive, and it is nearly complete. I can
1 certainly say that much. And it probably wouldn't be prudent for me to
2 say anything further than that. But one of the complicating factors had
3 been the joinder since the initial application had been made, and also
4 you'll bear in mind that the decision is now being rendered by your Bench
5 which has only been constituted since September.
6 MS. KORNER: I fully understand, I do, Your Honour, we really do,
7 but I'm afraid we think that a motion that has been outstanding for
8 nearly two years as of next week is something that requires urgent,
9 urgent attention.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, let me just add that for the moment,
11 the Judges' time out of court is practically -- for 95 per cent devoted
12 to adjudicated facts, to that motion.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour. All right. I don't think
14 I can say anything further on our list.
15 Your Honours, number 3, while I'm on my feet, if I can just
16 explain what that means. Judge Harhoff -- Your Honours, there's still
17 confusion about the policy and the criteria for the admission of the
18 documents, and His Honour Judge Harhoff, on the 9th of December,
19 indicated that he would provide -- I'm so sorry, the Trial Chamber would
20 provide guide-lines which would be sent to counsel first before they were
21 issued in draft. The difficulty, for example, is -- can I take a very
22 simple example. The newspaper articles. There doesn't appear, to us, to
23 be a policy on this. In some cases, they're admitted. In other cases,
24 because they're newspaper articles, an objection is raised and they're
25 not admitted. And we really -- we really would like, if it's at all
1 possible, to have written guide-lines which we can all understand and
2 follow as to how documents will be admitted. The other matter is, of
3 course, this business where we have a number of documents, for example,
4 intercepts or records of meetings, where we don't have enough time to go
5 through each and every one with the witness, whether we can have those
6 admitted, as it were, as part of a bulk exhibit. And so all we're asking
7 for or reminding Your Honours is that if guide-lines could be drafted and
8 issued in draft, and then we'll all know where we are.
9 JUDGE HALL
10 Judge Harhoff has alerted you that an attempt will be made, but I will
11 say in this context something that I've expressed privately, and that is
12 that over the years that the Tribunal has been in existence, and the
13 jurisprudence and practice that has developed, the fact that this still
14 is an issue means that any attempt that is made to deal with an issue
15 like this comprehensively is going to be futile in the sense that there
16 will still be opportunities for argument and submissions. So on a
17 case-by-case basis, the practical result is likely to be that the --
18 whereas general principles can be stated, that it is only going to be
19 resolved on a case-by-case basis. And in that vein I don't know what was
20 intended by item 4, but what I just said would also applied to that.
11 Page 5412 redacted by court order.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, item number 5 I'll get
22 Ms. Pidwell to deal with, because I make a mess every time I deal with
24 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, it's simply a technical matter that
25 you may recall there were five MFI
1 when Dr. Donia gave his evidence, and they were MFI'd on the basis that
2 it was unclear whether they were within the boundaries of the Sarajevo
3 report that you partially admitted.
4 Upon review, it appears that one was actually on our 65 ter list
5 all along. It had a different ERN number and so had slipped through the
6 cracks. And so that one we're asking to be formally admitted now on the
7 record because it was in our 65 ter list and was simply MFI'd previously.
8 It's P14, and it was 65 ter number 903. And it was our fault, and we're
9 very sorry.
10 JUDGE HALL
11 relevant number by the Registry.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It will remain Exhibit P14, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 So we take the adjournment now until Monday -- sorry, where are
15 we on Monday; here?
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 So I wish everyone a safe weekend. Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of
21 January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.