Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5328

 1                           Friday, 22 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8     Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to all.

10             Before I call for the appearances, I note for the record that we

11     again resume today under the provisions of Rule 15 bis due to the

12     continued illness of Judge Harhoff.

13             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

14     Crispian Smith on behalf of the Prosecution.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  On

16     behalf of the Defence for Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene

17     O'Sullivan.  My colleague, Mr. Zecevic, will be with us a little later

18     on.

19             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Zupljanin

20     Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and Katarina Danicic our case

21     manager.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness to

23     come in, is it Your Honour's intention to have a sort of procedural, as

24     it were, conference if the witness finishes, say, an hour before the end

25     of the session?  That was the original suggestion, I know.

Page 5329

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that's my understanding.

 2             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers]... right.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  And we have your list of issues.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.

 7             Before I invite Mr. Krgovic to continue his cross-examination, I

 8     remind you that you're still on your oath.

 9                           WITNESS:  ST-172 [Resumed]

10                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honour.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:  [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

15             Yesterday, before we broke for the day, we were discussing a

16     document, so might we have it up on e-court again.  2D020609 is the

17     number.

18             Your Honours, I have to inform the Trial Chamber that the

19     document still has not been translated, unfortunately, so I only have a

20     copy in B/C/S.  I'll do my best during the cross-examination to use it as

21     little as possible, to refer to it as little as possible.  I might be

22     dealing with perhaps four or five sentences that I will read out to the

23     witness.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have page 2 of this document

Page 5330

 1     up on our screens, please.  Chapter 7, may we zoom in to Chapter 7.

 2        Q.   Chapter 7 is titled "The Security of Prisoners of War," or

 3     "Security for Prisoners of War," and it goes on to say who is considered

 4     to be a POW; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   It says --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, do the interpreters -- do you know

 8     whether the interpreters have a copy of the document?

 9             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, but I can help, give one copy.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Apart from the category that you mentioned

11     yesterday in response to a question from the Prosecution about persons

12     wearing uniforms and bearing arms, in addition to those, it says,

13     "members of volunteer detachments within the armed forces."  Is that

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And also "members of resistance movements and volunteer

17     detachments."  Right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   Then members of regular armed forces of a government not

20     recognised by the adversary; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And, finally, civilians or, rather, members of crews of military

23     planes, correspondents, various suppliers, members of cultural and

24     educational teams linked to the army, members of the navy and civil

25     aviation, or, and this is what I'm particularly interested in, members of

Page 5331

 1     the population rising up to fight the enemy and locate it on free

 2     territory.

 3        A.   I don't see that on that page.

 4        Q.   It's on the following page, Witness.  I apologise for not telling

 5     you.  At the top there, top of the page.  Is that what it says in this

 6     document?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   And I think you'll agree with me when I say that persons from

 9     this category, apart from the narrow definition of a POW that you

10     discussed, was at Manjaca, too, during the time you were there, so these

11     others?

12        A.   Yes.  I took the definition from the Conventions --

13     Geneva Conventions on Prisoners of War.  It's difficult to remember it

14     word for word.  But, anyway, our regulations expanded on that concept

15     somewhat here.

16        Q.   Secondly, in paragraph 4 of this same document, it talks about

17     stations for collecting prisoners of war, and they are in the rear; that

18     is to say, centres or stations where prisoners of war are brought in from

19     the combat zones.  Is that what this means?

20        A.   Yes, that is what this means.

21        Q.   And the next sentence says that prisoner of war camps shall be

22     determined by organisation and formation or establishment; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And within the camp command, there is the established unit of a

25     military police there to provide security?

Page 5332

 1        A.   Yes, and that was the case at Manjaca too.

 2        Q.   That was the case at Manjaca too, you say.  So there was this

 3     organisation, an establishment, and a military police unit deployed and

 4     engaged in providing security; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, in the third paragraph from the bottom, it says that the

 7     camp command of the POWs will decide upon the way the prisoners are

 8     distributed and housed in the camp.  It also provides for a system of

 9     security for the POW camp; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And that was what was done at Manjaca; right?

12        A.   Yes.  At Manjaca, we had security.  The engineers provided

13     security.  We had technical security and physical security, the manpower,

14     the people, the guards manning the observation points, and so on.  And

15     the engineer security -- technical security meant wire fences,

16     minefields.  That came under the engineers or what we called technical

17     security for a camp or any other facilities for which security is

18     provided.

19        Q.   Furthermore, in the last paragraph on that same page, it says

20     that the prisoners of war, upon their arrest, must be evacuated away from

21     the front-line to ensure their safety and security; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now have the following page

24     pulled up of this document.

25        Q.   Here, it speaks about escorting prisoners of war, the procedure

Page 5333

 1     in which prisoners of war are escorted.  That's Chapter 6.  Is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Now may we have the next page,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   And would you focus on the second paragraph from the bottom,

 7     which is underlined on that next page.

 8             May we zoom in to that, please, on our screens.

 9             And this paragraph deals with the escort of prisoners of war on

10     foot and the way in which they are escorted in columns, and the security

11     provided for that column or columns.  Is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, when the Prosecutor asked you earlier on about transport or

14     the arrival of a column of POWs from Kljuc who were brought in on foot,

15     that is nothing unusual, right, nothing out of the ordinary or in

16     contravention to the Geneva Conventions or the rules that were applied in

17     1992 regarding the transport of prisoners of war on foot?

18        A.   That's right.  All I said was that when we lacked motor vehicles,

19     trucks, they went on foot, but I didn't say that that was anything

20     unusual because at military police training sessions and courses we dealt

21     with the escort of prisoners of war on foot many times, precisely in the

22     way as it is set out here in this paragraph.

23        Q.   And since the distance from Kljuc to Manjaca is a relatively

24     short distance, then that could be done that way; right?

25        A.   Yes, it could be done that way, because I said it was just a

Page 5334

 1     distance of some 15 kilometres.  I never calculated the distance, but I

 2     know that there's a short-cut that is even shorter, so most probably they

 3     took that short-cut.

 4        Q.   And now in the second part of that paragraph, it says that during

 5     transport, interrogated prisoner of war officers from soldiers should be

 6     separated so that the officers should not be able to wield any influence

 7     on the subordinates and soldiers?

 8        A.   Yes.  During this transport on foot, the persons interrogated

 9     from persons not yet interrogated are separated, as are officers from the

10     rank and file.

11        Q.   And the prisoners of war, if possible, are interrogated straight

12     away, right, as soon as they are captured, and if they haven't been

13     interrogated, then that is left to a later stage?

14        A.   Usually it's done straight away for intelligence reasons, because

15     the information is freshest in their minds.  If you interrogate somebody

16     straight away, they'll be able to provide you with the best information

17     because it's fresh in their minds.  And then the interrogation is

18     continued in greater detail in the camps or elsewhere.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back a moment to the

20     previous page.  I'd like us to look at the last and penultimate

21     paragraph.  Could we zoom in there, please.  To the right.  Thank you.

22        Q.   In the second paragraph there, it says that for the escort of a

23     larger number of POWs, men are assigned from other units to carry out

24     that task; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, precisely, from other units.  During our training courses

Page 5335

 1     and sessions, we mostly had cases where, when we had a large number of

 2     prisoners, men from other units were used who did not belong to the

 3     military police, for instance.

 4        Q.   And the unit command taking part in the capture can also deploy

 5     MUP forces to provide escort for the POWs; right?

 6        A.   I don't see that it says that here.

 7        Q.   But in practice, is that possible, and did that happen?

 8        A.   I don't remember any such case, but quite possibly.

 9        Q.   You said, in response to the Prosecution, that the POWs were

10     sometimes brought in by the military police?

11        A.   Yes, that's right.

12        Q.   Now, please, take a look at the fourth paragraph from the bottom.

13     I'm going to read out the paragraph.  It says:

14             "In cases where a person who is being escorted happens to be

15     killed or dies a natural death along the way, or in any other way, the

16     leader of the patrol shall inform the military police unit thereof, the

17     nearest military prosecutor, the investigating judge of the

18     Military Court, and the SUP, and will provide security for the site so

19     that an on-site investigation team can arrive and launch an

20     investigation."

21             Do you agree that that's what it says there?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in case in the camp, itself, a killing or death occurs of a

24     POW, those same measures will be applied, right, in practice?  And I'm

25     referring to the case that happened involving Filipovic and that other

Page 5336

 1     man, the other prisoner, who succumbed to the wounds from their beatings.

 2     The military prosecutor was informed thereof, as was the Military Court.

 3     The site was secured, and the investigating judge came to carry out an

 4     on-site investigation; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we now have Exhibit P411.32 up

 7     on our screens, please.

 8             Your Honours, I'm just going to ask for the previous document to

 9     be MFI'd until we receive the translation thereof.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit 2D32 marked for identification,

12     Your Honours.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please see the second page

14     of this document.

15        Q.   Can you please read this document carefully first, and then I'll

16     ask you a couple of questions regarding it.  Just this text which is at

17     the bottom.

18             This is, in fact, a note, and it refers to the POWs who died of

19     asphyxia during transportation to Manjaca.  One may conclude from this

20     document that notice was sent about this to the Court in Sanski Most, as

21     well as the SUP, who was invited to carry out an on-site examination, and

22     that a medical team examined the victims to establish the cause of death;

23     is that right?

24        A.   Yes, that is what I deduce from this document.  I didn't say

25     yesterday that they died of this or that.  They were just found dead when

Page 5337

 1     they arrived at the camp, and I don't know what happened before that.

 2        Q.   Well, if you see that both the investigating judge and the SUP

 3     were notified that an examination was carried out by a medical team, is

 4     that fully consistent with the regulation and the rule that I read

 5     previously to you about the procedure to be applied when somebody dies of

 6     natural causes, by accident, or in another way?  So the procedure in this

 7     case was fully complied with; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, do we have a date on this document?

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And is it --

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we go back to the

13     previous page of this document, I showed this document to

14     Witness Draganovic, who confirmed that this document refers particularly

15     to this incident.  He was the president of the Court, and he -- if you

16     remember, and he was the one who located this document at the Sanski Most

17     Clinic or Centre and confirmed its authenticity, and he linked this

18     document to the death of these people from Manjaca.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What's the time-frame from this investigation to

20     the killings, themselves?

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I was able to elicit from

22     the Witness Draganovic, the one immediately followed the other.  And I

23     also asked the protected witness who used to work for the police in

24     Sanski Most about this document, and we established the time-frame, and

25     there was confirmation of that.  I cannot tell you now exactly what page

Page 5338

 1     in the transcript this was stated in.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Has this witness any knowledge about this, about

 3     when this investigation was conducted?

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, this witness

 5     doesn't know what happened next.  My question was purely about the fact

 6     whether, in this particular instance, the procedure that was prescribed

 7     by the rules was applied.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness couldn't answer that if he doesn't

 9     know when this investigation is conducted.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just asked him

11     theoretically, without specifying any time-frame, whether it is

12     consistent with the rules to apply such a procedure and whether this

13     procedure was complied with, and it is connected with a specific

14     incidents other witnesses spoke about, and I think Witness Draganovic

15     confirmed the identity of the persons who were suffocated during the

16     transportation to Manjaca.  That was this particular instance.  What I

17     asked today was only whether it was in compliance with the rules.

18        Q.   Sir, the Prosecutor asked you yesterday about the witness --

19     sorry, not the witness, about an individual.

20             And in that context can we please see Exhibit P481.  It's a

21     statement.

22             You were asked whether, from the statement that you saw, it seems

23     that he was a POW who took part in an armed insurgency, and you answered

24     that on the basis of this document, you cannot answer that question; is

25     that right?

Page 5339

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please see Exhibit P483.

 3        Q.   Can you please look at the second paragraph from the bottom.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, the previous witness?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.  No, the --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  Sorry, can we go into private session?

 7             JUDGE HALL:  We can go into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  In open session, Your Honours.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   One can see from this paragraph that the witness or, rather, the

24     man that you questioned said that Asim Egrlic had given a weapon to

25     Omer Filipovic, and that he took part in the arming of a Muslim unit;

Page 5340

 1     isn't that right?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   And that, in fact, could have been a reason for him to be

 4     qualified as a participant in insurgency and the reason for his

 5     incarceration; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You spoke extensively about a large number of POWs who were

 8     interrogated and whose statements were taken.  Generally speaking, you

 9     cannot remember each individual case, at least not the majority, with the

10     exception of some specific and characteristic cases?

11        A.   Of course I cannot.

12        Q.   Yesterday, you were asked by the Prosecutor about Dr. Sabanovic,

13     whether you knew if he was an extremist, and you said that you didn't

14     know whether he could be qualified as an extremist.  Do you remember

15     that?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Do you know --

18             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, that's an inaccurate answer; it's not what

19     the witness said.  I think you better find the page in the transcript.

20     And that wasn't the question.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I remember the question being,

22     Would you describe Sabanovic as an extremist?  Well, in any case, the

23     answer was negative.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was either negative, or

25     I think I said I didn't perceive him as such.  I can't remember exactly.

Page 5341

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That was just an introduction to my

 2     next question.

 3        Q.   Sir, do you know that Dr. Sabanovic was interrogated in Manjaca

 4     about the circumstances relating to his capacity of a medical doctor and

 5     that, during the conflicts in Croatia and Bosnia, issued over 2.000 false

 6     medical certificates that would assist conscripts to avoid mobilisation

 7     or to become draft-dodgers, actually?

 8        A.   I know nothing about that.

 9        Q.   And do you know that military investigating organs questioned,

10     before the outbreak of the conflict, Dr. Sabanovic in Sanski Most about

11     these circumstances?

12        A.   I really know nothing about that.

13        Q.   The fact is, but I am saying again hypothetically, that if it

14     turned out that he had issued so many false certificates, that would

15     constitute a crime and would be contrary to military laws, and that would

16     mean assisting armed insurgents; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Sir, in your evidence you spoke something about how the camp was

19     set up.  The camp was set up - and can you please just repeat.  I think

20     you already told us that.  Can you tell us whether the camp and was set

21     up in compliance with the military rules applicable at the time in the

22     territory of Republika Srpska?  Is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

25     exhibit marked 10217 under 65 ter.

Page 5342

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, you asked the witness whether

 2     issuing so many false certificates, which would constitute a crime and

 3     would be contrary to military laws, that that would mean assisting armed

 4     insurgents; is that right?  And the witness answers, Yes.  Would you ask

 5     the witness how this would assist armed insurgents, writing certificates

 6     for people who don't want to be armed and listed?

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I'll do that.

 8        Q.   Witness, when the conflict broke out in the former Yugoslavia,

 9     the JNA declared partial mobilisation and started sending summons to

10     conscripts either to join the army or to respond to mobilisation.  Do you

11     remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   What follows was an en-masse response by the Serbs, while the

14     Croats and the others tried to evade receiving the summons for serving in

15     the army and for mobilisation.  Do you remember that?

16        A.   Yes, I remember them doing that in every possible way.

17        Q.   One of the ways was to have a false medical certificate that they

18     were not fit for military service.

19        A.   Yes, that was one of the ways.

20        Q.   On the other hand, those persons who failed to respond to

21     mobilisation in the JNA joined paramilitary formations for the Croat and

22     Muslim forces that were in the process of being formed at the time; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And in that manner, the combat power of the JNA, and later of

Page 5343

 1     Republika Srpska forces, were weakened?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  The defence capacity of the armed

 3     forces of the country were weakened, and under the law this included

 4     fleeing from the armed forces, et cetera.

 5        Q.   And in that way, they directly assisted armed insurgents against

 6     the JNA and later against Republika Srpska and the legal system of the

 7     SFRY?

 8        A.   Yes, it could be interpreted in that manner.  This affected the

 9     capacity of the forces that were preparing insurgency.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document not be

12     broadcast, because I don't know if it is a confidential one.  Maybe my

13     learned friend can help me.  Does it fall into the category that should

14     not be --

15             JUDGE HALL:  It hasn't been broadcast, Mr. Krgovic.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I don't know if the Prosecutor showed you this document during

18     proofing or if you had an opportunity to see it at some earlier stage.

19     It's the minutes of the meeting at Manjaca between the POW camp commander

20     that took place on the 31st of August, 1992.  So can you please look at

21     page 2 of this document.  In the English, it is on page 1 and continues

22     onto page 2, the conversations.

23             We have certain notes and observations by the camp commander.

24     I'll go through some of those observation to ask you whether they

25     correspond to the actual situation on the ground in Manjaca at that time.

Page 5344

 1             He introduces himself first and explains what type of camp it is.

 2     And then in paragraph 4 or item 4, he says that in conformity with

 3     Article 2 of the Geneva Conventions, paragraph 78 and 90, he and the

 4     prisoners elected their representatives and deputy representatives.  So

 5     I'm asking you now whether, in Manjaca, did the prisoners elect their

 6     deputies or representatives, in fact, and how did that function in

 7     Manjaca?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.  A commissioner for the entire camp was

 9     Captain Vahid Ceric, who was the same man mentioned on that statement we

10     looked at yesterday, and each pavilion had one representative or

11     commissioner or deputy representing them, the prisoners.  And through

12     that person, the prisoners could address their rights.

13        Q.   In paragraph 5, the colonel -- or, rather, Colonel Popovic says

14     that the people in the camp were caught in the combat zone and that that

15     was done in conformity with Articles 4 of the Geneva Conventions,

16     number 1 and 2, A, B, C, and D, which specify who can be a POW.

17        A.   That's what it says here.

18        Q.   As far as I understand it, this -- your testimony is only correct

19     in part, because you said that you received information from the

20     prisoners of war, themselves, and that some of them were not captured in

21     the combat zone.  Is that right?

22        A.   Yes.  On the basis of the investigations we conducted -- the

23     interrogation we conducted, they mostly said that they were captured at

24     home or working out in the fields, and you had no other information, so

25     it was difficult to establish what had actually happened.  And from the

Page 5345

 1     notes coming in from the ground, they said otherwise, so it was different

 2     to make a judgement and conclude what had actually happened.

 3        Q.   Because you didn't have reliable information; they said one

 4     thing, some witnesses said another, and the notes came in from the Serb

 5     authorities, if I can call them that, they said something else, so you

 6     had no reliable proof and evidence that they were actually prisoners of

 7     war; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   But, at any rate, when those people were captured and brought in,

10     it was your duty to investigate, to interrogate them and see whether they

11     were actually prisoners of war or not?

12        A.   We didn't have time.  Let me say this straight away.  We didn't

13     have time to interrogate everybody and investigate, because there were

14     4.403 persons, so we would need much more time than we had to question

15     all of them.  Now, for those who were accompanied by a note, and we had a

16     note about them, we interrogated them only superficially; briefly, that

17     is.

18        Q.   And what it says here or follows on from this report, he says

19     that the conditions in the camp were not ideal, that they were lacking in

20     hygiene and medical assistance.  And what I would like -- or what I can

21     see from this document and what I can understand from your testimony, you

22     did your best, given the prevailing conditions and circumstances, to

23     ensure the best possible conditions for the prisoners?

24        A.   Yes, I have nothing to add or subtract.  We did our best.  I,

25     personally, was happy to see that most people understood -- well, that

Page 5346

 1     the camp commanders understood the situation, and the people that had

 2     arrived and were alive in the camp should leave in the same way.

 3        Q.   And the status and conditions in the camp were affected by

 4     objective circumstances.  First of all, there was a war in the area, in

 5     the region, a war nearby, right, in proximity to the camp, and the fact

 6     that this part was isolated from Republika Srpska and the rest of the

 7     country for a period of time?

 8        A.   Yes, that I was going to add without you having to ask me.  The

 9     situation was a very difficult one at the time.  We were cut off from the

10     rest of Republika Srpska and from Serbia, itself.  The corridor had been

11     intercepted.  You know that 12 babies died in Banja Luka for lack of

12     oxygen, and the logistics was a great problem for supplies.  So we had to

13     send POWs to our logistics base in Banja Luka or, rather, they sent as

14     much food as they could.  We told them of the numbers we had, but they

15     sent the same amount of bread and food as they sent to the combatants up

16     at the front-lines, and that was very little to begin with.

17        Q.   And the situation improved, did it, when the corridor was broken

18     through sometime in July 1992 and when the International Red Cross

19     Committee began to come in and distribute food and help the POWs

20     generally; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, the situation improved significantly, and the Merhamet also

22     stepped in to help, the charity from Banja Luka.  The ICRC from Geneva

23     did, too, in July, and the situation improved quite significantly.

24        Q.   In paragraph 7, what the camp commander says there, as far as the

25     conditions in the camp were concerned, he says:

Page 5347

 1             "We did everything we could in order to comply with part 2 of

 2     Articles 22 to 27 of the Geneva Conventions."

 3             He says:

 4             "I would have been happier to have been able to accommodate them

 5     in hotels, but I didn't have that possibility."

 6             So under the given circumstances, everything possible was done?

 7        A.   Yes, and I'd like to ask everybody dealing with this issue to

 8     bear in mind the time and the context in which the camp existed.

 9        Q.   So on your part, and the camp administration, beginning with the

10     commander, et cetera, it was never their intention -- or, rather, these

11     POWs were not intentionally faced with a food shortage or difficult

12     living conditions; isn't that right?

13        A.   Yes, precisely.  Nobody -- I never experienced anybody in the

14     chain of command, from the Presidency of Republika Srpska down to the

15     last guard, that any of those people ever had the intention of making

16     life difficult for the POWs or people coming into the camp by keeping

17     them hungry or trying to liquidate them in any shape or form.

18        Q.   Could you please read the other paragraphs on page 2 of the

19     document, paragraphs 4 to 11.  Could you look through those, please, so

20     that I can move on.

21        A.   I've read them.

22        Q.   Could you now move on to page 3 of this document, please.  On

23     that page, would you take a look at paragraph 15.  Mr. Popovic refers, in

24     that paragraph, to some of the deaths that occurred in the POW camp.

25     Now, does that paragraph correspond to what you know about what happened

Page 5348

 1     at Manjaca?

 2        A.   I have to take a moment to look at this in greater detail.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in to paragraph 15,

 4     please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, here the camp commander says

 6     that there were six deaths, and I think -- well, I know for certain that

 7     that's a mistake, because there were five deaths, of which three were

 8     natural deaths and the other two violent deaths of the type that I

 9     described yesterday.  So not six, but five.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

11        Q.   And they didn't all die a natural death.  Two of them died as a

12     result of violence; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In the remaining part of that document, does it correspond to the

15     situation in the camp?

16        A.   Yes, it does.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we move on to the next page,

18     then, please.

19        Q.   Look at that page carefully, please, and please focus on

20     paragraph 26.

21             And could we zoom in on paragraph 26, please.

22             To the best of your recollections, do those figures correspond to

23     the ones you mentioned?

24        A.   Well, I don't want to do any math here, but everybody over the

25     age of 60 and under the age of 18, and any sick persons, and I think

Page 5349

 1     there were 82 of those, were sent for treatment, and the others were

 2     released through Merhamet, so that would roughly be the right figure.

 3     But he didn't mention the number of exchanged persons.  So an exchange

 4     took place, and it was a river that flowed continuously, new people

 5     coming in and other people being exchanged.  So in the course of a week,

 6     there was always one exchange process taking place.

 7        Q.   May we move on to the next page.  Well, you've looked at the rest

 8     of the page, and that corresponds to the situation in the camp on the

 9     ground; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now let's see the next page.  And would you focus on paragraph 33

12     there, please, where it says that there was a period where an

13     investigation -- an interrogation period was conducted, everybody was

14     interrogated, and if it was proved that they did not take part in the

15     fighting, they would be released.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes, that is what happened.

17        Q.   And then in paragraph 36, Colonel Popovic says:

18             "I would have been very happy if I were in a possibility to

19     fulfill all the conditions stipulated under the Geneva Conventions."

20             So that, in fact, is a joint desire expressed by the camp

21     commander and yourself, that you would be very happy to have been able to

22     comply with all the Geneva Conventions stipulations; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And later on, further down, he says when the camp was established

25     and under whose command it is.  And moving on to the next page, he says

Page 5350

 1     that the camp was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska

 2     and -- well, Republika Srpska; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now may we focus on law and order in the camp.  And you said the

 5     conditions more or less correspond to your impressions; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   May we go on to the next page, please.  In paragraph 39 --

 8        A.   Forty-nine.

 9        Q.   Yes, I apologise.  I need the previous page.

10             An expert in nutrition was due to arrive to establish the camp

11     requirements and to establish the aid needed by the ICRC.  Do you

12     remember that a nutritionist came into Manjaca and that after his visit

13     the quantity and quality of food improved?

14        A.   Yes.  A nutritionist was there every day from 9.00 to 5.00 p.m.

15     She was there with an interpreter.  She walked freely around the camp

16     without anybody's control, police or otherwise.  And this took place at

17     the end of July and went on to the end of September or, rather, for as

18     long as the camp was in existence.  And after that, the food improved

19     significantly.  And thanks to the ICRC, which brought in food in trailers

20     from Zagreb on a daily basis, the situation improved.

21        Q.   Let's move back to page 3 to look at paragraph 12, please.  That

22     addresses POWs and their work activities, and it says that under

23     Articles 50 and 51 of the Geneva Conventions, the conditions of work are

24     stipulated; that is to say, that POWs did not take part in trench-digging

25     or were not supposed to be exposed to dangerous conditions in the war

Page 5351

 1     zone, and that, in principle, there was less work for the POWs to do than

 2     they were willing to do.

 3        A.   Yes.  The POWs from Manjaca, not a single one were used for war

 4     purposes, that is to say, digging trenches, setting up human shields, or

 5     anything like that, but just for socially-beneficial work, and this was

 6     on a voluntary basis.  And, in fact, more POWs volunteered to go out and

 7     do work than were actually required and used.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have finished with that document

 9     now, please, so may it be given an exhibit number, if there are no

10     objections?

11             MS. KORNER:  Can I just go back to the last document, the manual,

12     for a moment.  Obviously, we're at a disadvantage, as we -- I imagine you

13     have no idea what any of this says.  But is this -- could we confirm that

14     this is all part of one manual, both sections?

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the document is

16     already an exhibit in the Popovic trial, and I can provide it to you.

17     I can bring the integral text, the integral manual, so you can have a

18     look at it.  It would be difficult for me to locate just that portion.

19     I think we have it in the library downstairs.  But I'll bring in the

20     entire manual.  That's why I asked that it be marked for identification.

21     Once it's been translated, you can see the whole thing.

22             MS. KORNER:  I'd be very grateful for the whole manual, if that's

23     possible.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So the current application is for the admission into

25     -- the present document having been tendered and entered as an exhibit.

Page 5352

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D33, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you a set of documents in which you

 6     described individual incidents that took place in the POW camp and its

 7     surroundings.  You recorded them meticulously, and you reacted to them.

 8             Now, what I would like to say to you, I'm talking about five or

 9     six documents describing these incidents.  However, beyond these reports

10     of yours, I have an impression that these were isolated incidents that

11     were responded to and an action was taken in accordance with the Rules of

12     Service, at least by yourself?

13        A.   Yes, exactly.  Whatever I learned about and what I thought was

14     either illegal or contrary to the rules, I recorded that and reported

15     that, but not for the purpose of reporting alone, but for responding to

16     them.

17        Q.   And outside of the reports that you wrote, no other incidents

18     took place, or maybe you don't know about them?

19        A.   I don't know about them.  If I had known, I would have written

20     about them.

21        Q.   Bearing in mind these incidents in the prisoners of war camp, the

22     expression that we heard in this court, such as "concentration camp" or

23     "death camp" or "killing camp," is rather untrue; is that right?

24        A.   I don't know.  We were attacked very much for the very word

25     "camp."  I think that in our rules and regulations, even in the ones

Page 5353

 1     we've seen today, there was a rule which provided that for housing POWs,

 2     one needs to set up a camp.  Now, if someone is confusing a concentration

 3     camp with a POW camp, it's not our fault.  We even had an inscription in

 4     the camp which says that this was a POW camp.  No one can ever call it a

 5     death camp, because 4.403 prisoners went through this camp.  There were

 6     only five deaths.  Two of them were violent deaths, and three were the

 7     deaths caused by natural causes.  If you, on that basis, can call this

 8     camp a death camp, then these are people who are entertaining prejudices.

 9        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, the Manjaca camp, if compared

10     according to the information that you had about the POWs from the Serbian

11     side or the Muslim side or coming from other centres, the Manjaca camp in

12     the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, where there was war, I think

13     that in that camp one can say that the conditions are best.

14        A.   If we compared this camp that I have knowledge about, and one can

15     freely say that if we try to measure the level of regularity in the camp,

16     the Manjaca camp can be qualified as the most regular and regulated ones.

17     This might sound strange to someone.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note, could the witness and

19     counsel please speak more slowly and pause between questions and answers.

20             JUDGE HALL:  The interpreters are reminding you, Mr. Krgovic, and

21     the witness to allow an interval to facilitate the translation.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, you're right.

24     Due to this overlapping, there is no distinction in the transcript

25     between the question and answer.  So please be patient with me.  It was

Page 5354

 1     my mistake.  I was too hasty in putting the question.

 2             So from page 26, line 6, is where the answer begins, after the

 3     words "if you compare this camp that I have knowledge about."  So this is

 4     where the witness's answer begins, and before that was my question.

 5             I apologise to the interpreters and the Chamber.  I will do my

 6     best to slow down, not because time is elapsing, but I will try to bring

 7     this to an end as soon as possible.

 8        Q.   Sir, you said that as far as you know, the majority of the POWs

 9     had been brought by the police, but you didn't have information at that

10     time who arrested or captured them; isn't that right?

11        A.   No, I didn't have that information.

12        Q.   I'm going to show you now a document which is Exhibit 5390.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  P390.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Again, it's my mistake.  I

15     apologise to the interpreters.  I didn't pronounce the first word quite

16     clearly.

17        Q.   Sir, I don't think that you had an opportunity to see this

18     document.  Therefore, I kindly ask you to look at it or, rather, item D

19     of this document.  But before that, can we look at page 2 to see who

20     signed this document.  You can see that this was signed by the chief of

21     the Public Security Station, Mirko Vrucinic.  This was the SJB in

22     Sanski Most; is that right?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   You have heard of him, but you never met him?

25        A.   That's right.  This is what is written here.  I don't know

Page 5355

 1     anything about this document because it had been drafted before I came to

 2     Manjaca and Banja Luka --

 3        Q.   This was the 5th of August, 1992.  Let's go back to page 1 now,

 4     please.  So let's go back to page 1.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I'm just going to interrupt for a moment, because

 6     the witness says he's never seen the document before, he doesn't know

 7     about the contents, what's he supposed to say about it, other than, I can

 8     see what's written?

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to show to

10     the witness only one paragraph of this document, and this is already an

11     exhibit.  I was just going to ask the witness whether he's aware of the

12     fact contained in this single paragraph.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Krgovic.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you please look at paragraph D.  In this paragraph, it says

16     that:

17             "In combat operations or so-called clearing operations, the army

18     picks up the population (of late only persons fit for military service),

19     and simply hands them over to the civilian organs and authorities.  After

20     that, the police are obliged to provide security for these camps, and as

21     part of that, are responsible for food, health-care, hygiene, and the

22     like."

23             Sir, just one question.  Do you know that in those operations in

24     combat zones, military units herded the population and brought them in,

25     the population that was in a combat zone?

Page 5356

 1        A.   In principle, yes.  I would like for us to stand corrected.  I

 2     didn't know that this was August.  I was there in June.  What you asked

 3     me about, whether I knew if that was being done and that these people

 4     were handed over to the police, in principle I know that that was the

 5     procedure that was applied.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at

 7     Exhibit P382.

 8        Q.   Sir, before we see this document on our screens, you mentioned

 9     that during the take-over these prisoners were brought in by the police.

10     In fact, you were the one who received all the notes and the lists from

11     the policemen who escorted the transports; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And now I'm going to show you a document relating to the

14     transportation to Manjaca, and it speaks about who is taking part in

15     that.  I kindly ask you to read this document carefully.  You can see

16     here who is providing escort for the POWs.  The second sentence reads:

17             "Three members of the prison premises, three members of the

18     Public Security Station, and four members of the military police provided

19     escort."

20             Do you know, and I underline "do you know," whether military

21     police and security guards of the camp took part in escort?

22        A.   Yes, I didn't give you a decisive answer either yesterday or

23     today, which is that in all cases the POWs were escorted by the police.

24     However, when we had to deal with a large number of POWs who were moved

25     from one camp to another, they normally came escorted by the police.

Page 5357

 1     However, when we had smaller groups coming from the front, which is to

 2     say, genuine fresh POWs, they were brought in by the military police, and

 3     they provided escort during transportation.  So I don't rule out that

 4     these were also military policemen at the head of the column.

 5        Q.   Yesterday, in response to the Prosecutor's question, and the

 6     Prosecutor showed you a document about the release of persons under the

 7     age of 18 and over 60, at one point you said that a group of prisoners

 8     was handed over to the Merhamet because they were the only ones ready to

 9     receive them.  Do you remember that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   The problem that you highlighted in a few of your reports with

12     the release of these categories of people for whom it has been

13     established that were under the ages of 18 and over the age of 60, had no

14     place to return to for various reasons?

15        A.   Yes, that's right, and that was a problem.

16        Q.   From what I could see from various documents, the problem with

17     them was because some of them had been living and had residence in the

18     houses that were still in the areas where combat operations were in

19     progress?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And, secondly, due to war operations or due to the clearing of

22     the terrain, some of their houses were ruined; is that right?

23        A.   Yes, there were cases like that.

24        Q.   And they had no place to return to?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 5358

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Please slow down.  And it's 10.25, so if this is a

 2     convenient point, Mr. Krgovic.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  We'll resume in 20 minutes.

 5                           [Witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, one of

 9     the documents that Mr. Krgovic showed, he asked me whether it should be

10     under seal.  That's the conversation with Colonel Popovic.  It's been an

11     exhibit in previous trials, and I am not, at this stage, sure whether it

12     was under seal or not.  It's because of the provider.  Can I just, for

13     safety's sake, I think, at this stage say that that document, whatever

14     the number was, should be under seal, and if it was all right to have it

15     not under seal, well, then we'll come back to you on that.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  I was informed by Defence counsel that

18     Exhibit 2D33 should be under seal.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well, that's the one we're [microphone not

20     activated]... discussing, but I'm not sure about that, that's all.

21             JUDGE HALL:  I think that's a preferable course.  Thanks.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Before you begin, Mr. Krgovic, I would again

24     respectfully remind you to bear in mind the interpreters.

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes.  I'll do my best, Your Honour.

Page 5359

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I'll continue where we left off before the

 2     break.  Let me remind you, I was talking about the reasons for which

 3     there were problems for persons under the age of 18 and over the age of

 4     60 to be released from the POW camp, and I listed some of the reasons why

 5     this was sometimes difficult, reasons that I read from relevant

 6     documents.  So I'd like you to confirm or not confirm this, or you've

 7     already done that.

 8             Anyway, the area from which these POWs came in from, to a large

 9     extent, was void of the population because the population had left

10     certain areas because of combat, and that's where these POWs were coming

11     from; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   So in that area, there was a lot of insecurity because of some

14     groups that were rampant in the area, so it was a threat to their

15     security to stay on in those places; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And what happened was, in many cases, that some people would be

18     released, they went to areas of this kind, and they were either abused

19     there or killed there.  That happened, too; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So all that constituted the reasons for which -- among other

22     reasons, of course, for which their release was prolonged, which took a

23     long -- for which it took a long time to have them to be released from

24     the camp; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5360

 1        Q.   Now, you also spoke about the fact that in the POW camp, there

 2     were a number of imams, religious figures?

 3        A.   Yes, I think there were four imams and a priest, a friar.

 4        Q.   And they were released among the first lot, although it was

 5     established, in actual fact, that some of them had taken part in combat

 6     and bore arms; right?

 7        A.   Yes, there was some information to that effect, that a hodja, I

 8     don't know which one -- that an automatic rifle was found on a hodja in a

 9     mosque.  But as far as these religious personnel were concerned, the

10     decision was made to release them, and I think they were released and

11     handed over to the main imam in Banja Luka.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May we have Exhibit P484 shown to

13     the witness now, please, and put up on our screens.

14        Q.   Look at the last paragraph there, please.  And can we zoom in to

15     it.  That's your report, is it not?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   And these religious persons are described here, one of whom had a

18     weapon in a mosque, and another pulled out an automatic weapon from a

19     vehicle, et cetera, et cetera, as it says here.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes, that's what it says clearly there.

21        Q.   One of the reasons why everything was running late in this

22     respect was that for those people under the age of 18 and over the age of

23     60 and the sick, it was established that they, in fact, possessed weapons

24     and had taken part in combat, so an abolition needed to be gone through

25     there; is that right?

Page 5361

 1        A.   Yes.  President Karadzic abolished those people that had to go

 2     elsewhere for treatment, so an act on abolition was passed.

 3        Q.   Now another question.  When describing your activities, you said

 4     that you could only propose certain measures, whether to the camp

 5     commander or your superior command, with respect to the release of people

 6     from the camp, whereas the final decision was taken by the organ that was

 7     superior to Colonel Popovic; is that right?

 8        A.   That's what I said, and that's how it was.

 9        Q.   Right.  Now look at Exhibit P489, please.  Take a look at what it

10     says at the bottom of that page, the signature and everything else.  And

11     this refers to persons under the age of 18, and the decision that they

12     can be released was okayed by Colonel Vukelic.

13        A.   Yes, Colonel Vukelic was assistant commander, co-commander for

14     morale, and, as such, he was able to bring in a decision of this kind

15     releasing them from the camp, giving his permission for that.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Corps commander.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let me just check to see if I have

18     anything further to raise.  I apologise to the Trial Chamber for taking

19     up time.

20        Q.   One more question.  As far as you know, in view of the duties

21     that you performed, after the people were released and exchanged, the

22     POWs, from Manjaca, that immediately afterwards they took part in combat

23     operations on the other side and that some of them were taken prisoner

24     again and even set up some sort of 17th Knights Brigade or whatever it

25     was called, but that they were captured again immediately upon their

Page 5362

 1     release from the camp because they had taken part in combat?

 2        A.   Yes.  With the help of the ICRC and the Serbian authorities, we

 3     released persons in three groups, the first being on the 14th of

 4     November, and the other groups were subsequently released on the 12th --

 5     or, rather, the 14th, 16th, and 18th of December.  Every other day, they

 6     were released.  Groups were released every other day until the whole camp

 7     was disbanded and released.

 8             And now people were interested in hearing what had happened to

 9     these people -- I apologise, I'm speeding up, so sorry to the

10     interpreters.

11             Anyway, they were all supposed to go to so-called third

12     countries, so not any of the former SFRY republics but to third

13     countries.  Mostly, they went to Germany and Belgium, where they

14     requested to go, in fact.  But in that first stage of their departure,

15     which was Karlovac after Manjaca, many expressed the desire to go back to

16     the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and joined up with the armed forces

17     again there.  Now, I can't remember the names and surnames of these

18     people or how many people, but a certain number was recaptured, they were

19     captured again.  And I think they should have recalled my words, many of

20     them, when I said that perhaps Manjaca was their salvation, because had

21     they stayed at home, they would have perhaps been killed up at the

22     front-line, fighting, whereas in Manjaca their lives would have been

23     saved and were saved.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  I have no further

25     questions for you.

Page 5363

 1             That completes my cross-examination.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, can I ask that -- the exhibit that I said if

 4     we could have under seal for caution's sake, we've checked.  It wasn't

 5     under seal in the other trials, so there's no objection to it being an

 6     ordinary exhibit in the case.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5364











11 Pages 5364-5369 redacted by court order.















Page 5370

 1   (redacted)

 2        Q.   Witness --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  I think Ms. Korner's point, with which I

 4     respectfully agree, is that it is easy to draw inferences from these

 5     questions that you were asking which would result in the identification

 6     of the witness.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

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24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5371











11 Pages 5371-5384 redacted. Private session.















Page 5385

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may recall the exchange I had with

Page 5386

 1     Mr. Cvijetic at some point, and we just remained in private session.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I was just waiting.  I didn't hear you say.

 3                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

 4        Q.   Sir, you were asked by Mr. Krgovic to look at a list of what was

 5     defined as a prisoner of war in some kind of military police manual, and

 6     one of the definitions in the manual, as opposed to any of the

 7     Geneva Conventions, was:

 8             "Members of the population rising up to fight the enemy."

 9             What do you understand by the term "fight"?

10        A.   I cannot understand it otherwise than that it has to do with an

11     armed combat.

12        Q.   So we're talking, are we, about somebody armed with a weapon,

13     carrying out combat, if you like, against, in this case, the Army of the

14     Republika Srpska?

15        A.   Yes, that's so.  Our Law on the All People's Defence envisaged a

16     transition from wartime to wartime system; therefore, a state of war.

17     And "combat," as you put it, or "fight" could be slightly different.

18     "Fighting" means fighting with weapons.  However, taking part in a war

19     can also involve companies or enterprises continuing their operation

20     during the war for the purposes of war efforts.

21        Q.   Yes.  I want you to have a look, please, again at the document

22     you saw yesterday, which is now Exhibit P487.

23             I remind you of what you told the Court yesterday, in relation to

24     this report, that they are being brought in massively, in large

25     quantities, particularly from Kljuc and Sanski Most, bringing in those

Page 5387

 1     who shouldn't be treated as prisoners of war because they've been picked

 2     up from their homes and off their fields, and individuals who are older

 3     than 60 and younger than 18.

 4             When you wrote those words, as you told the Court they were true,

 5     do those persons, in your view, come within the definition of fighting

 6     persons?

 7        A.   I wrote it in that way because I perceived it in that way through

 8     interviews with them.  I had no other documents at my disposal.  I found

 9     out, according to their statements, that they had been picked up from

10     their houses following an invitation for them to assemble at a certain

11     point.  I wrote this in order to give an incentive to the command to

12     cease such a practice, particularly because we were again receiving

13     people under the age of 18 and over the age of 60.  This is why I wrote

14     this in this way.

15             MS. KORNER:  Can we go into private session for a moment, please.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5388











11 Page 5388 redacted. Private session.















Page 5389

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I've only got about another -- well,

20     if you feel we ought to take the break.  But can I, for the purposes of

21     the end of this, say that I've only got about another 10 minutes' worth.

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we'll resume in 20 minutes.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

Page 5390

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I just note for the purposes of

 3     the transcript that I've been joined by Ms. Pidwell on behalf of the

 4     Prosecution.

 5        Q.   Sir, you were asked questions about Dr. Sabanovic which arose out

 6     of the questions that you were asked by me in chief; namely, whether

 7     Dr. Sabanovic, who was on the list of the most radical extremists in the

 8     area of Sanski Most, and I asked you, just so we get the exact quote,

 9     page 5278 of the transcript:

10             "Was there anything about his conversations or anything about

11     what you learned about him to suggest that he was, as described, the most

12     radical -- one of the most radical extremists?"

13             And you said:

14             "Not that I could see."

15             And you were then asked whether you knew that he had signed

16     certificates, effectively fake certificates, exempting Muslims from

17     conscription during the war in Croatia.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And a theory was put to you that by signing these exemption

20     certificates, effectively he had been aiding -- I'll just get the right

21     question, the actual question -- that he was assisting armed insurgents,

22     which Judge Delvoie queried that.  A series of propositions was put to

23     you, ending up with this one:

24             "On the other hand, those persons who failed to respond to

25     mobilisation in the JNA joined the paramilitary formations for the Croat

Page 5391

 1     and Muslim forces."

 2             And you agreed with that.  How do you know that the people who

 3     had been exempted from military service by means of these certificates

 4     all went off and joined the paramilitary formations?

 5        A.   All that was hypothetical, both the question and the answer, let

 6     me say.  I don't have any specific information telling me that any of the

 7     people that Sabanovic released or exempted went to enemy formations, to

 8     the enemy, the adversary.  But hypothetically speaking, you can deduce

 9     that and conclude that, because where would they go?  But I don't have

10     any specific information.  So in answer to your question, I don't

11     specifically have any information about anybody joining up with the enemy

12     forces of the ones released by Sabanovic.

13        Q.   And let's return to the original topic.  I don't know what's

14     meant by "radical extremists," but as a matter of common sense it would

15     be somebody who was espousing violent resistance to the take-over of

16     areas by the Bosnian Serb forces.  Did anything in the conversations that

17     you had over a long period of time, some eight or so -- well, some

18     months, with Dr. Sabanovic suggest that he was the type of person who was

19     doing that?

20             MR. KRGOVIC:  I object for that -- first, the basis, did this

21     witness make conversation with Sabanovic?  That was the first question.

22             MS. KORNER:  I thought it had been quite clear.  All right, I'll

23     go back.

24        Q.   In the period of time that Dr. Sabanovic was the doctor in the

25     camp and formed part of the reception committee, did you have

Page 5392

 1     conversations with Dr. Sabanovic?

 2        A.   Yes, on many occasions.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So the original question:  Anything in his

 4     conversation or anything about him to suggest that he was espousing

 5     violent resistance to the take-overs?

 6        A.   No, I didn't have that information either from the notes -- even

 7     if there were some SUP notes about him, which there were -- I can't

 8     remember quite what they said, but apparently he gave some injections to

 9     Serb children, something that was extremely important in deducing whether

10     he's an extremist or not.  But this was information that was not

11     substantiated with any proof or evidence.

12        Q.   My actual question is, is your personal impression of him, sir,

13     from the many conversations that you had with him.  That's what I'm

14     asking for.

15        A.   The impression is, and according to the information that I

16     had that--

17        Q.   Forget -- all right.  Yes, go on.  Yes, carry on.

18        A.   As I was saying, I couldn't rank him among the group of

19     extremists.  I couldn't really say he was that.

20        Q.   Yes, thank you.

21             Now, next you said, when Mr. Krgovic was taking you through --

22     and, I'm sorry, I should have asked you this earlier.  When you met

23     Mr. Krgovic originally in Bosnia and then for a couple of hours or so on,

24     I believe, Tuesday evening -- Wednesday evening, did you discuss -- did

25     he discuss with you the questions that he was going to ask you?

Page 5393

 1        A.   He enumerated the topics that he would be dealing with and the

 2     rules or, rather, the rule that holds true here.  He showed me that, and

 3     that's it.  I don't know what else you might be referring to, what you

 4     mean.

 5        Q.   Well, a number of these questions, if I can put it this way, sir,

 6     and it's a matter for the Trial Chamber, you answered fairly swiftly,

 7     without much time for pausing, and agreed with nearly every proposition

 8     that was put to you, and so I'm just wondering whether or not these were

 9     discussed with you when you met him.

10        A.   Not about everything, but it was logic that it was involved here

11     and the knowledge I had performing my duties, in the line of duty and my

12     service for over all those years, so I don't need to think about it.

13     That's a fact.

14        Q.   Well, I want to ask you about one answer you gave when you were

15     being shown the record of a conversation with Colonel Popovic conducted

16     by Mr. McLeod from what was then called the European Community Monitoring

17     Mission.  And it was put to you -- a number of questions about the camp,

18     and it was put to you that under the given circumstances, everything

19     possible was done for the prisoners in the camp.  And you said:

20             "Yes, and I'd like to ask everybody dealing with this issue to

21     bear in mind," although the word "bear" has been missed out from page 20,

22     line 3, "the time and the context in which the camp and existed."

23             "So on your part," said Mr. Krgovic, "on the camp administration

24     beginning with the order, et cetera, it was never their intention or,

25     rather, they were not intentionally faced with a food shortage or

Page 5394

 1     difficult conditions; isn't that right?"

 2             And you said:

 3             "Yes, precisely.  Nobody -- I never experienced anybody in the

 4     command, from the Presidency of the Republika Srpska down to the guard,

 5     that any of these people ever had the intention of making it difficult

 6     for the prisoners of war or people coming into the camp by keeping them

 7     hungry or trying to liquidate them."

 8             Now, firstly, did you ever see any orders from the Presidency of

 9     the Republika Srpska in connection with the camps, other than the

10     internationals being allowed in there?

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)  I understood that there was nobody

15     down the chain of command who had the aim of, let me put it this way,

16     massive sufferance or annihilation of the people in the camp, so I didn't

17     want to take part in a game like that either.  And I even thought that if

18     anything like that happened that I would leave, although I would be held

19     criminally responsible, because according to the law orders which ordered

20     you to commit crimes need not be heeded, so you could refuse to obey an

21     order if the order involved committing a crime.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Overlapping speakers]... in this part of page 66,

23     line 9 and 10, must be redacted because --

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 5395

 1             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Mr. Krgovic.

 2        Q.   What was the condition of the Omarska prisoners when they arrived

 3     at Manjaca?

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  I don't think that I raised this issue in my

 5     cross-examination.

 6             MS. KORNER:  It arises out of the answer that there was no, as it

 7     were, common plan to starve or make life difficult.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  But in Manjaca.

 9             MS. KORNER:  That's not what the witness said.

10        Q.   Sir, what was the condition of the prisoners from Omarska when

11     they arrived at Manjaca?

12        A.   They looked -- seemed under-nourished, not well cared for.  And I

13     have to add that what I was thinking of was the treatment of prisoners at

14     Manjaca, because I never went to Keraterm or Prijedor, in that camp

15     there, so I meant Manjaca.

16        Q.   All right.  Well, can we just have a look then briefly, please,

17     at one document which you've seen, but we didn't refer to it in

18     examination-in-chief, on Manjaca, itself.  Could you have a look, please,

19     at document P179.13.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to object to

21     this document and this line of questioning because this is a document

22     from the ICRC, and I did not mention it in my cross-examination.  I made

23     no mention of any commission or any report from the ICRC, nor do I know

24     how -- where this line of questioning is going or how this document can

25     be used in this redirect.  But if the Trial Chamber allows the Prosecutor

Page 5396

 1     to ask questions on this document, then I should like to ask time for

 2     additional questioning so that I, in my turn, can ask the witness about

 3     this and other documents which I also did not use.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, Mr. Krgovic, sorry, opened this line of

 6     questioning through his cross-examination on the -- full

 7     cross-examination on the document of the conversation that Mr. McLeod had

 8     with Colonel Popovic, in which the colonel put his side of matters to

 9     Mr. McLeod.  The conversation then moved on to the question and answer

10     that I have just dealt with in which it is said that there was no --

11     anybody in command from the president of Republika Srpska down, that any

12     of the people ever had the intention of making it difficult for the POWs

13     or keeping them hungry.  This report is directly attributable to that

14     line of cross-examination.

15             JUDGE HALL:  But if to the extent that there is a, for want of a

16     better expression, spill-over, aren't you inviting the prolongation of

17     this by Mr. Krgovic having to deal with -- be given leave to deal with

18     these matters again?

19             MS. KORNER:  No.  Mr. Krgovic should have thought of that before

20     he embarked on the line of questioning and should have dealt with it

21     himself, because it was perfectly obvious that this is something that's

22     going to be dealt with in re-examination.  So the fact that he decided to

23     ignore the document which was in our list, but because it was already at

24     that exhibit I went over it, that's the decision he took, and he's stuck

25     with it.

Page 5397

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, and we'll see where we go.

 2             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I did not deal

 4     with this document because the Prosecutor chose to ignore the document

 5     during the examination-in-chief, so that was precisely the reason why I

 6     failed to deal with it.  Now, if you allow the Prosecutor to ask

 7     questions about this document which he or she intentionally side-stepped

 8     during in-chief, then I'd like to ask questions about this and two other

 9     documents linked to this document.  But because of the shortage of time

10     and because the Prosecutor did not deal with it during the

11     examination-in-chief, I did not address the matter in cross-examination

12     either.

13             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, sorry, can I respond?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Just a minute.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  You wanted to respond, Ms. --

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, this document is already an exhibit in

18     the case.  The fact that, through reasons of timing, I didn't deal with

19     it personally with this witness is one thing.  But if Defence counsel

20     deliberately adopts a line of questioning which could be said to be

21     misleading - and in our submission is because he concentrated on the

22     conversation that Mr. McLeod had with Colonel Popovic, and Your Honour

23     will hear about that, from the witness at a later date - he can't then

24     complain if a document that's already an exhibit in the case and which

25     has been looked at is then referred to in re-examination to correct a

Page 5398

 1     misleading impression.  And shouldn't be allowed, I'm afraid, in our

 2     submission, to have another go at it.  He took the decision, only to put

 3     it -- ask about that document and not about the document that says the

 4     very opposite.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Ms. Korner.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Might I just be allowed to respond,

 7     and I'll sit down.

 8             The witness, when he was shown the document here, it was a

 9     document criticising that -- well, he said that the document was biased

10     and did not contain all the facts.  And my line of questioning would be

11     to show the witness this document and the document that he wrote in which

12     he speaks about this first document.  That's all.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Whatever tactical reasons either side would have had

14     for proceeding in the manner in which they have up to this point in

15     relation to this document, in terms of the -- in order for the Chamber to

16     have the benefit of all of the relevant evidence, I'm going to allow

17     Ms. Korner to proceed, and I would have to, in fairness, allow

18     Mr. Krgovic to return to this briefly.  Yes.

19             MS. KORNER:  All right.

20        Q.   This is a document, sir, that you looked at during the course of

21     your review of the documents in the case, and, indeed, we have already

22     referred to the letter, and it is an exhibit that you wrote about this.

23     However, can we look at what is said for the first time that the ICRC get

24     to the camp.  And this is letter they sent to -- it was dated the 22nd of

25     July and was sent to the president of the republic.

Page 5399

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at page 2 -- sorry, page 2,

 2     it's the third -- my fault.  It's the one, two, three -- fifth page in

 3     English.  It's the actual report, and it is -- it's -- I don't know.

 4     It's page 0124-6849 at the top.  And we've got neither up at the moment.

 5     Oh, we actually do.  I'm not sure what the English document is, but it's

 6     not -- I want the English of that, please, which is, as I say, the fourth

 7     page -- fifth page.  I don't know what you've got up on there, but that's

 8     not it.  The English should -- you've got the B/C/S.  The English looks

 9     like that [indicates].  All right, it doesn't matter.  Give me that page,

10     I'll -- 0124-6846, please.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I understand the page is not in e-court, Ms. Korner.

12             MS. KORNER:  So I've just been told by the usher, and we're going

13     to put it up on Sanction.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes, all right.  In fact, it's also -- they sent --

16     in the B/C/S, they sent a copy of the English paper.

17             Do you have, in Sanction, 0124-6846?

18             Your Honour, I'm sorry about the ten minutes, but it's going to

19     be causing -- it's mixed in with the B/C/S, I think.  It's page 6 of the

20     B/C/S.  So if we can have page -- the page we've got up already in B/C/S,

21     plus page 6.  It's all mixed up together.  That's why I think it's --

22     right.  Finally.  Thank you.

23        Q.   All right.  This is the working paper that was sent to

24     Mr. Karadzic.  It's the visit to, paragraph 2, "Treatment."

25             "The ICRC visit was terminated prematurely, 12.15, when delegates

Page 5400

 1     observed that two detainees had been subjected to ill treatment during

 2     the visit."

 3             I don't think that means they were beaten up during the visit,

 4     but just bad grammar:

 5             "All eight delegates present in camp observed on detainees

 6     frequent and widespread traces of recent and often severe beatings; those

 7     most often were fresh hematomas inflicted in a time-period since arrival

 8     at Manjaca."

 9             "3.  Material conditions.  General living conditions with regard

10     to food, hygiene, clothing and accommodation," quality that must be, not

11     qualify, "are absolutely insufficient.

12             "Many detainees show marked weight loss and signs of anaemia with

13     severity often corresponding to length of detention."

14             And then it deals with the facilities.

15             Now, sir, this visit was in July, before the Omarska prisoners or

16     the prisoners from Keraterm arrived, isn't it?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   And so the signs of beatings and/or malnourishment, and the food

19     and hygiene, related to conditions or related to people who had not come

20     from either of those two camps?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And you told us, yourself, in your earlier testimony that there

23     were beatings in the camp?

24        A.   Yes, there were.

25        Q.   And even though, as you told us when we looked at your letter --

Page 5401

 1     your report about this, which I think we've already exhibited -- I can't

 2     remember what the number is now, but anyhow --

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  P490.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

 5             Can we have that up?  Perhaps we can come down the page a bit.

 6        Q.   You said there:

 7             "As far as the beatings are concerned, that is correct, although

 8     it is hard to ascertain when they were created, whether in the camp or

 9     before their arrival, i.e., during arrest."

10             So you accept that on that part, that report of the ICRC is

11     accurate; is that right?

12        A.   That's right.

13             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Which part, Your Honour?

15             MS. KORNER:  In respect of the beatings.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, but can you read the right part, because it's

17     a leading question.

18             MS. KORNER:  Well, I'm perfectly happy to put up any other part

19     of the letter that Mr. Krgovic would like me to -- the report, rather.

20             All right, can we move on?  And then you've been given

21     permission, Mr. Krgovic, in any event, as I understand it.

22        Q.   And it's right, isn't it, sir, that in July, before the ICRC

23     arrived, the food and the hygiene and --

24             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  Leading.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 5402

 1        Q.   Do you agree with the report that we've just looked at, that the

 2     general living conditions with regard to food, hygiene, clothing,

 3     accommodation, are grossly insufficient -- were grossly and absolutely

 4     insufficient?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And, sir, finally on this -- on this aspect, you were asked a

 7     number of leading questions, quite properly because it's

 8     cross-examination, about the war-torn areas, if I can put that, from

 9     which some of these people came, and you seemed to agree that these

10     people had been brought in to Manjaca because it was unsafe for them to

11     remain in the area; in other words, they were being brought in for their

12     own protection.  Is that really what you're telling the Court, that a

13     number of these people were being kept in this camp in these conditions

14     for their own protection?

15        A.   I emphasised that in one of my reports; that is to say, that for

16     a number of prisoners, there was no evidence of participation, and they

17     were brought there just to bring them to safety.  That is what I put in

18     my report, and we discussed that yesterday.  As far as today's Defence

19     examination is concerned, we spoke about the return of the prisoners

20     under the age of 18 and over 60, and we said that it was impossible for

21     them to return because their places of residence were already vacated,

22     and therefore they had no place to return to.  So we have two different

23     instances.  I don't know which one you're referring to in your question.

24        Q.   Let's just deal with the people, who you seem to be agreeing

25     with, who had been picked up off the fields, taken from their homes, and

Page 5403

 1     brought to Manjaca.  Are you saying that these people had only been

 2     brought to Manjaca for their own protection?  Is that what you're saying

 3     to this Court now?

 4        A.   That's right, and that's what I put in one of my reports, and I

 5     abide by that.

 6        Q.   And what was the justification, sir, for keeping them in a

 7     prisoner of war camp in those conditions?

 8        A.   It's not up to me to say that.  I just noted that in order to

 9     encourage the decision-makers to do something in terms of either

10     exchanging these people or releasing the prisoners.  So that was the

11     purpose of what I wrote, and that is how I understood it.

12        Q.   Well, I think we'd better know finally, then, sir, what you are

13     saying.  Are you saying that in your opinion, it was proper procedure for

14     people who had taken no part in any kind of armed rebellion to be brought

15     to the camp and kept there for months for their own protection?

16        A.   Precisely so.

17        Q.   That's what you say, is it, sir?

18        A.   That's what I am saying.

19             MS. KORNER:  Well, in that case, sir, I don't think I've got any

20     further questions for you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, when I indicated earlier that you would

22     be allowed to return to this ICRC document, you mentioned two other

23     documents.  How do they -- how does this permission allow you to deal

24     with these further documents?

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to deal

Page 5404

 1     with these two documents.  I'm only going to ask a question that is

 2     relevant for that.  I'm not going to show the documents to the witness.

 3     I'll just put two questions because these two documents are linked with

 4     this document.  If the witness gives me an answer concerning this

 5     document, then I'm not going to ask him questions about the other two

 6     documents or, rather, I'm not going to mention these two documents.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed carefully one question at a time.

 8                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, during proofing the Prosecution showed you

10     this ICRC document; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were you asked on that occasion what you thought about the

13     objectivity of this report, and did you express some objections of

14     yourself to this report?

15        A.   Yes, but at the moment I cannot say for certain what I said

16     exactly.

17        Q.   On that occasion, and that can be drawn as an inference from the

18     other document shown to you, which is P490, Colonel Vukelic and -- as the

19     camp commander, and yourself, pointed out that these allegations about

20     the conditions were unbased and unfounded, and they promised to amend

21     their report by incorporating your objections.  Do you remember that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   However, they did not correct their report; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.  After Vukelic's and Popovic's reactions, they did amend

25     certain things, but that only remained orally.  No written report was

Page 5405

 1     amended to that effect.

 2        Q.   And these objections related to the conditions prevailing in the

 3     camp and the fact that it wasn't established when these injuries were

 4     inflicted?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Whether during the capture or in the camp itself?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And Colonel Vukelic, in his report, which was shown to you by the

 9     Prosecution, demonstrated that they didn't draft their report by adopting

10     an unbiased approach and that they had exaggerated the conditions in

11     Manjaca, and that was the essence of the objections raised by yourself

12     and Colonel Vukelic?

13        A.   Yes, that's right, and also the context of the whole situation

14     was not taken into account.  Popovic explained that earlier, and it had

15     been seen from this document.  Quite simply, the camp and the prisoners

16     virtually shared the destiny of the people and the military personnel at

17     the time.

18        Q.   And they did not acknowledge an objective remark that the

19     prisoners were given everything that was possible at the time that you

20     had at your disposal?

21        A.   Yes, we made great efforts to improve the situation and to reach

22     the level that would be adapted to the given situation and the

23     time-period.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Your Honours, I have no further questions.

Page 5406

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just to correct one

 3     of my mistakes, in the system of the three interconnected orders, and

 4     having to do with the same topic, the witness gave most of his answers

 5     with relation to the last one, which I didn't tender to be admitted into

 6     evidence, and the intention was to present them all together.  Since you

 7     admitted into evidence the first two ones, I also tender document 1443

 8     according to 65 ter to be admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D157, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, we thank you for your coming to assist

12     the Tribunal, and you are now released.  The usher would escort you from

13     the courtroom, because the Chamber has other matters with which to deal

14     before it rises.  We wish you a safe journey back to your home.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber is in receipt of the copy of the

18     memorandum over the signature of Ms. Pidwell, indicating the matters --

19     the list of five matters, and they've consulted the Defence in terms of

20     the content of the list.  And dealing with the first item, I suppose this

21     is the Prosecution means of alerting the Chamber that the appropriate

22     motion will be made in due course.

23             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honour, it was not our intention to file

24     any motion in respect of a site visit.  We simply put it onto our list.

25     If Your Honours felt that it would be useful for you to see, if not all,

Page 5407

 1     at least some of the areas in real life, then the Defence and Prosecution

 2     are in agreement that we feel it may well be useful, if I can put it that

 3     way.  We have no intention of filing a motion and adding to the already

 4     lengthy list of motions.  This is -- can I put it, this is an agreed, as

 5     it were, application by the Defence, if Your Honours felt it was

 6     necessary.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I hear what you are saying, but I would have thought

 8     that the initiative should come from counsel rather than from the

 9     Chamber.  We are probably agreed in the result.  It's only a question of,

10     for whatever reason, from whom the initiative should come.  We don't --

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the initiative is coming jointly from

12     Prosecution and Defence counsel, but we really don't feel that it

13     requires another motion.  We feel -- can I put it this way, and I'm sure

14     I'll be corrected by Defence counsel if I put it inadequately or wrongly,

15     that it may well be of assistance to Your Honours if Your Honours say so,

16     if you see what I mean.  It's a matter for Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Of course it is, but do I -- when we talk about a

18     motion, do I understand the position to be that you are now so moving?

19             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

21             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I thought you meant yet another written

22     motion.  We are -- we are making the application for Your Honours to

23     undertake a site visit, the organisation of which is quite complicated,

24     so it needs to be worked out in advance, so that Your Honours may see for

25     yourselves the actual areas that this case is concerned with, or at least

Page 5408

 1     some of them.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Okay.  So the office for the Prosecution now having

 3     moved, so moved, and counsel for the Defence not object --

 4             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I believe Ms. Korner explained that it is a

 6     joint application by both Defence and the Prosecution.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I followed that.  I was presuming to articulate

 8     your position.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.  I'm sorry.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  Just for the

11     record, we are also concurring with this application.

12                           [Trial Chamber and legal officers confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  The only practical question remaining is that the

14     Chamber would need to know where it is proposed that the site visit take

15     us.  But the motion having been made in open court, the Chamber would

16     formally rule at the appropriate time.  But we understand the joint

17     position of both sides in this regard.  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I have a feeling that to cover every

19     single municipality would be a fairly lengthy and difficult task, so

20     I think the best thing is that the Defence and Prosecution sit down

21     together and work out which of the municipalities which we feel you

22     should see.  I mean, the ARK ones are all grouped very close together,

23     but the others are more widespread.  But, Your Honour, if we can get back

24     to you with an agreed list.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 5409

 1             As regards item 2, outstanding motions, we thank you for the

 2     lists that we got a few hours ago, and these matters would be -- are all

 3     in process, and the rulings would -- there is nothing that we can

 4     practically say today.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I understand that, Your Honours.  And I know this is

 6     a recurring theme, particularly from me, but I'm afraid I must ask

 7     Your Honours to rule today on the Prosecution's motion for safe conduct

 8     for Witness ST-187 which was filed on the 23rd of December, and it's

 9     consented to.  There's no objection from the Defence.

10             JUDGE HALL:  That draft has been prepared, and the order will be

11     made today or, by the latest, on Monday.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  And, Your Honour, in relation to that -- to

13     the outstanding matters, can I just make one observation.  It's the

14     adjudicated facts as against -- which have been granted in respect of

15     Stanisic, but have not yet been granted, if they're going to be, as

16     against Zupljanin.  And the difficulty with not having a ruling is that

17     it raises the question of what evidence the Prosecution will be obliged

18     to call.  And the longer this is outstanding, the more complicated it

19     becomes, because we're dealing with municipalities now where we're not

20     calling -- for example, Kljuc, we're calling very little evidence because

21     of the adjudicated facts, but they've only been granted as against

22     Stanisic, and Kljuc really affects Zupljanin more than it does Stanisic,

23     to a great extent.

24             JUDGE HALL:  You would appreciate, of course, that is an exercise

25     which is very labour intensive, and it is nearly complete.  I can

Page 5410

 1     certainly say that much.  And it probably wouldn't be prudent for me to

 2     say anything further than that.  But one of the complicating factors had

 3     been the joinder since the initial application had been made, and also

 4     you'll bear in mind that the decision is now being rendered by your Bench

 5     which has only been constituted since September.

 6             MS. KORNER:  I fully understand, I do, Your Honour, we really do,

 7     but I'm afraid we think that a motion that has been outstanding for

 8     nearly two years as of next week is something that requires urgent,

 9     urgent attention.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, let me just add that for the moment,

11     the Judges' time out of court is practically -- for 95 per cent devoted

12     to adjudicated facts, to that motion.

13             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  All right.  I don't think

14     I can say anything further on our list.

15             Your Honours, number 3, while I'm on my feet, if I can just

16     explain what that means.  Judge Harhoff -- Your Honours, there's still

17     confusion about the policy and the criteria for the admission of the

18     documents, and His Honour Judge Harhoff, on the 9th of December,

19     indicated that he would provide -- I'm so sorry, the Trial Chamber would

20     provide guide-lines which would be sent to counsel first before they were

21     issued in draft.  The difficulty, for example, is -- can I take a very

22     simple example.  The newspaper articles.  There doesn't appear, to us, to

23     be a policy on this.  In some cases, they're admitted.  In other cases,

24     because they're newspaper articles, an objection is raised and they're

25     not admitted.  And we really -- we really would like, if it's at all

Page 5411

 1     possible, to have written guide-lines which we can all understand and

 2     follow as to how documents will be admitted.  The other matter is, of

 3     course, this business where we have a number of documents, for example,

 4     intercepts or records of meetings, where we don't have enough time to go

 5     through each and every one with the witness, whether we can have those

 6     admitted, as it were, as part of a bulk exhibit.  And so all we're asking

 7     for or reminding Your Honours is that if guide-lines could be drafted and

 8     issued in draft, and then we'll all know where we are.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  It is something that, as you indicated,

10     Judge Harhoff has alerted you that an attempt will be made, but I will

11     say in this context something that I've expressed privately, and that is

12     that over the years that the Tribunal has been in existence, and the

13     jurisprudence and practice that has developed, the fact that this still

14     is an issue means that any attempt that is made to deal with an issue

15     like this comprehensively is going to be futile in the sense that there

16     will still be opportunities for argument and submissions.  So on a

17     case-by-case basis, the practical result is likely to be that the --

18     whereas general principles can be stated, that it is only going to be

19     resolved on a case-by-case basis.  And in that vein I don't know what was

20     intended by item 4, but what I just said would also applied to that.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

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Page 5412











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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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20             JUDGE HALL:  We'll see.

21             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, item number 5 I'll get

22     Ms. Pidwell to deal with, because I make a mess every time I deal with

23     MFIs.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, it's simply a technical matter that

25     you may recall there were five MFI documents that were left over from

Page 5414

 1     when Dr. Donia gave his evidence, and they were MFI'd on the basis that

 2     it was unclear whether they were within the boundaries of the Sarajevo

 3     report that you partially admitted.

 4             Upon review, it appears that one was actually on our 65 ter list

 5     all along.  It had a different ERN number and so had slipped through the

 6     cracks.  And so that one we're asking to be formally admitted now on the

 7     record because it was in our 65 ter list and was simply MFI'd previously.

 8     It's P14, and it was 65 ter number 903.  And it was our fault, and we're

 9     very sorry.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So that document is now admitted and assigned the

11     relevant number by the Registry.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It will remain Exhibit P14, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             So we take the adjournment now until Monday -- sorry, where are

15     we on Monday; here?

16                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17             JUDGE HALL:  We resume at 9.00 a.m. on Monday in Courtroom III.

18     So I wish everyone a safe weekend.  Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

21                           January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.