1 Thursday, 4 February 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
6 number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
7 Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 The -- may we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner,
11 Belinda Pidwell, assisted by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for the Stanisic Defence
14 this afternoon. Thank you.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. For
16 Zupljanin Defence Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and Mr. Jason Antley.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 matter. But before you do that, we would just wish to remind counsel
19 that the matter that was raised about a fortnight going now, I understand
20 it's been that long, about a site visit in respect of which counsel were
21 to have put their heads together, we would be grateful if the -- we could
22 have your response by Monday week. That would be the 15th of February.
23 Thank you.
24 Yes, Ms. Korner.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I hope I'm going to give Your Honour
1 some good news for a change. Your Honours will recall that in a decision
2 rendered last year where we applied to add new witnesses, we were ordered
3 to remove a witness from our witness list, and we were given by
4 Your Honours leave to make the decision by March the 1st. We've decided
5 to be rather speedier than that. We have taken a decision to remove from
6 our witness list ST-199.
7 Your Honours should be even happier that next week you won't have
8 to consider the application that we made for him. We asked for a witness
9 summons in respect of him on the 14th of January. Obviously having
10 dropped him, we now withdraw our application.
11 Your Honour, second matter is this: We've had some communication
12 with Defence counsel for both accused over this question of exhumations.
13 At the moment it appears that there is a dispute, that the Defence are
14 not prepared to make an admission as to the exhumations, what bodies were
15 recovered, cause of death and the like. It may well be that we can sort
16 this out at a later stage, but if not, then I'm afraid we'll have to
17 reinstate the exhumation witnesses or witness, but it also means that the
18 witness who's coming after Mr. Egrlic this afternoon will have to be
19 asked about the exhumations in which he was involved. I think it's
20 regrettable, but there we are. If we're being put to strict proof, we're
21 being put to strict proof.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you for this information.
25 I'm -- I'm a bit surprised to learn that there is disagreement
1 about the exhumation issue, and I wonder if -- if the parties would be
2 good enough to give the Chamber a heads-up on which issues are in dispute
3 in relation to the exhumations.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the issue that was --
5 the question that was given to us yesterday by Ms. Korner and the OTP
6 pertained to the next coming witness. The question concerned his
7 participation in discovering and opening up certain graves in the
8 territory of Kljuc
9 We agreed with the Prosecution that as far as that is concerned,
10 we have no objections. However, it can certainly not be expected that
11 the Defence would stipulate findings which come from a person that has no
12 forensic qualifications, and it is simply not reasonable to expect us to
13 stipulate any findings coming from him concerning those graves. We don't
14 know whether those were original graves to begin with or whether there
15 was some reburial taking place, transportation and so on. We don't know
16 when those graves were created. Similarly, we don't know whether the
17 remains that were found in the graves are remains of the persons who lost
18 their lives during the relevant period or following that period. So
19 there is a huge number of outstanding issues over which we cannot agree
20 with the Prosecution right now.
21 We informed Ms. Korner this morning that we accepted what I have
22 just informed you of, and we left the possibility open to keep discussing
23 this. As far as I could understand from Ms. Korner, talking to her just
24 before this session, she asked us to accept the so-called forensic
25 database on exhumations.
1 I suppose -- and, Your Honours, I'm not competent enough,
2 technically speaking, to accept this at face value. Therefore, I need to
3 receive instructions from a person who is competent on the matter. That
4 is to say we need to consult an expert.
5 The other thing is that there will be a number of issues there.
6 Perhaps we will find agreement on some issues and leave some other issues
7 open. What I just enumerated to you are the issues that I think are the
8 most pertinent for this case and for the ruling of the Trial Chamber.
9 I hope I was of assistance in my submission, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very much so, Mr. Zecevic. Thank you very much.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can --
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can I just ask you, Ms. Korner, I suppose the
14 idea from the Prosecution was that you would not be seeking to call
15 evidence to confirm the exhumation database. You would just submit the
16 database to the Bench and say that's it, and that's the evidence we get.
17 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Your Honours, however, because it didn't
18 occur to us that there would be this sort of dispute, this evidence has
19 been given over and over again in trials without really any
20 cross-examination accruing. But that's what we will do. We will put the
21 database into evidence which the Defence, may I say, have had for
22 virtually since the beginning of this case, and see where we go from
24 Your Honour, all that -- what concerns me is what Mr. Zecevic
25 just said about whether it's a secondary grave, what the forensic people
1 said about the cause of death. We've got witness after witness after
2 witness that deals with that. All of that information was gathered
3 together and put into the database, but what concerns me is if there's
4 seriously going to be a dispute about the cause of death or whether it
5 was an original grave or a secondary grave, then we just have to start
6 calling the people who actually carry out these investigations, the
7 pathologist, the archaeologist, the anthropologist. But for the moment
8 what we will do is we will submit -- we will apply to add, I suppose, to
9 our 65 ter list the whole database of exhumations, and then we'll see
10 where we go from there.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 WITNESS: ASIM EGRLIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 [Witness testified via videolink]
16 JUDGE HALL
17 this trial. Can you hear me?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. I can.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 would now invite Mr. Pantelic to resume his cross-examination.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Can you hear me? Is
23 everything all right? Can you hear me, Mr. Egrlic?
24 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
25 Q. Thank you. I was just testing to make sure everything is in
2 Tell me, please, Mr. Egrlic, while being proofed for your
3 testimony before coming to the Tribunal's office, did you talk to anybody
4 from the OTP?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. Who was that? Do you know that person's name?
7 A. I don't know the name. I can't remember.
8 Q. Was it yesterday, or was it before you arrived?
9 A. Before.
10 Q. And did you talk to any of your family members or any of your
11 friends yesterday after your testimony? Did you discuss with them the
12 subject of your testimony?
13 A. I didn't.
14 Q. Would you please look at the document that we started analysing
15 yesterday. You can find it in our binder under tab 25.
16 In the upper right corner is it -- does it say P232?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Yesterday, we mentioned Mr. Nihad Filipovic, who was a
19 representative of the Liberal Party. Do you know which party that was?
20 Was it represented in the parliament, that is, in the Municipal Assembly
21 in Kljuc?
22 Would you please repeat your answer. We didn't hear it.
23 A. No, it wasn't in the parliament.
24 Q. Is Mr. Nihad Filipovic from Kljuc?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did I understand this statement, this report concerning him, did
2 I understand it well: It says here that Nihad Filipovic basically
3 criticised some moves of the SDA and HDZ parties concerning the
4 recognition of the sovereignty of Bosnia and that the SDA and the MBO did
5 not agree with that position. Am I interpreting this report correctly?
6 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. It's not very clear to me what
7 it says here.
8 Q. Was the main topic of this meeting between the SDA and the MBO
9 the initiative to establish Kljuc municipality by assemblymen who were
10 representatives of the SDA and the MBO? Was this the topic discussed?
11 A. It was that topic.
12 Q. They also discussed the possibility of organising a plebiscite
13 that was to be held on the 15th and 16th of February concerning the
14 creation of an independent Muslim municipality of Kljuc
15 in a paragraph on the second page of this document.
16 Was this plebiscite also discussed?
17 A. It wasn't exactly a plebiscite.
18 Q. We didn't hear your answer.
19 A. It was supposed to be a referendum of the citizens of Kljuc
21 Q. Where was this debate of the representatives of the SDA and MBO
22 held in Kljuc, in what location? Was it at the culture hall, Mr. Egrlic?
23 A. I think so, but I don't remember any longer whether it was the
24 conference room of the council or whether it was the culture hall.
25 Q. Yesterday, we discussed certain political initiatives at the
1 level of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina and the assistance of the
2 international community in overcoming the problem, and you told me then
3 that it was a widely known fact and that they proposed a possibility of
4 creating cantons. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The initiative from this meeting, is it basically a follow-up of
7 the initiative started by the international community and other political
8 factors in Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to your opinion?
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the answer.
10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] We have concluded with this
12 [In English] Could we have a number for this exhibit, please.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 It's now admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D43, Your Honours.
16 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Egrlic, we didn't hear your last answer to my question
18 whether the initiative of the SDA and the MBO was a follow-up of the
19 initiative coming from the international community and other political
20 factors in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Please tell me what was your answer to my
21 question for the record.
22 A. It wasn't a follow-up of that initiative.
23 Q. Mr. Egrlic, it is beyond dispute that in the Municipal Assembly
24 of Kljuc, based on the results of parliamentary elections held in 1990,
25 the majority of the assemblymen came from the SDS; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Please tell us what parties were in the opposition in the Kljuc
3 Municipal Assembly based on the results of those elections.
4 A. It was the SDB, as far as I can remember.
5 Q. Let us take it one by one. It's not the SDB. SDB is an acronym
6 for another service.
7 Just a moment, Mr. Egrlic. I will assist you, and you can
8 correct me if I'm wrong.
9 So in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, the following political
10 parties were in the opposition: The SDA; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. MBO.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. For the sake of the record, you and I know which parties those
15 were, but to be fully clear, let us say that MBO stands for what? For
16 Muslim Bosniak Organisation; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then SDP
19 the former League of Communists; correct? SDP.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were the Reformists also represented in the Municipal Assembly?
22 A. I don't know that they were.
23 Q. All right. At any rate, these parties that we enumerated were
24 the parties that had their assemblymen in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly;
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, the SDS
3 adopted a decision on the joining of the then-municipality of Kljuc to
4 the association of municipalities of Krajina, ARK
5 A. That was in 1992.
6 Q. The decision was adopted on 1991 on joining the community of
7 municipalities of Bosnian Krajina, and later on that community was
8 admitted into the Autonomous Region of Krajina; correct?
9 A. But the council or, rather, the Municipal Assembly adopted that
10 decision in 1992.
11 Q. It's possible that you got confused there a bit. It was a
12 document of the OTP, and my associates will look it up, and we will
13 clarify that with you. The time reference is not that important for us.
14 What is important is that the decision was adopted, was voted on based on
15 the parliamentary majority in the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Egrlic, while you were imprisoned in the military camp in
18 Manjaca, you gave a statement on the 29th of June of 1992, which is in
19 our binder under tab 1. So would you please take that document. Our
20 colleague can assist you. And let us go through it briefly.
21 Yes. My assistant has just told me that -- that this is P481, a
22 document that has already been admitted.
23 Mr. Egrlic, you have before you a statement; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At the beginning of the statement it says that sometime in May
1 1992, a meeting was held in Sanski Most, and the meeting was attend by
2 Mr. Filipovic, Mr. Islamagic, Mr. Kurbegovic, Mr. Karabeg, Mr. Ismet who
3 is the secretary, and yourself. You see that first paragraph, don't you?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What was the purpose of that meeting, please? Just briefly.
6 A. The meeting was held to look at the political and security
8 Q. What was the function in the SDA of Mr. Redzo Kurbegovic? What
9 position did he hold in the SDA?
10 A. I don't know, but I believe that he was a member of the
11 Executive Board.
12 Q. Where does he come from?
13 A. From Sanski Most.
14 Q. In the following paragraph it says that at that meeting you
15 tabled a motion for Kljuc and Sanski Most municipalities to act together.
16 Please explain. What did you mean by that? What did you have in mind
17 when you proposed a joint action?
18 A. In terms of passing appropriate decisions with regard to
19 disseminating information and so on.
20 Q. Did you also discuss appropriate military preparations and the
21 organisation of your party in the region?
22 A. No.
23 Q. In your statement you also talk about the events in Kljuc on the
24 27th of May, the events during which some incidents happened, and we
25 talked about them yesterday. Is that correct? Is that the gist of the
1 second part of your statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Besides the statement that we are just looking at, did you
4 provide another statement or some other statements to some other security
5 organs? Do you remember?
6 A. It is possible.
7 Q. On page 2 of the same statement there is your signature. Can you
8 confirm that this is indeed your statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We no longer need this document. Please look at document under
11 number 22 in our binder of documents, and let's look at it together.
12 Mr. Egrlic, I don't know about the quality of your copy. Maybe
13 it's not good. However, does the document start with the following
14 words: "I, Omer Filipovic"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I apologise.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in relation to this document, whilst I
18 have no objection, obviously, to Mr. Pantelic asking the witness whether
19 he was aware of events described therein, he obviously can't be asked
20 about anything else that may be said by Mr. Filipovic when he was making
21 a statement to the RS MUP in Manjaca. Unless he says he's seen the
22 statement before or knew of its contents.
23 MR. PANTELIC: It's just reference, Your Honour, so we should go
24 to the point [indiscernible]. We shall come to the conclusions.
25 [Interpretation] 2D03-0687 is the reference number of this
1 document. Yes. We have it now.
2 Q. As you can see at the very beginning of the statement, the late
3 Mr. Filipovic speaks about certain political aspects, and then on page 2,
4 in the first paragraph thereof, it -- you can see the following sentence:
5 "In that sense, after having established the BH TO staff, we
6 proposed the following: We proposed the establishment of a new TO staff
7 loyal to Bosnia and Herzegovina."
8 Is this a correct statement in this statement?
9 A. As far as the statement is concerned, I didn't read it, so I
10 can't tell you my opinion as to what he stated in it.
11 Q. But you understand what the Prosecution put to you. But I'm
12 asking you something else. Based on your knowledge and your previous
13 testimony, would you say that the sentence that we have just read out
14 precise reflection of the situation involving the TO? Just say yes or
16 A. I've already spoken about that, and I don't know whether I should
17 speak about that again. The TO staff was indeed established.
18 Q. I totally understand you, Mr. Egrlic. I just need you to say yes
19 or no. So your answer is yes, is it not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then in the lower part of page 2 a reference is made to
22 certain events which took place -- place on the 29th April 1992, about
23 the receipt of a telefax message appointing Mr. Filipovic as the
24 commander of the TO staff. A reference is also made to the commander
25 Hasan Efendic, who was the commander of the BH TO, and also reference is
1 made to the instructions for the work of the unit. Do you remember that
2 something to that effect did indeed arrive from the BH TO staff? Just
3 stay yes or no.
4 A. No.
5 Q. On page 3 of the same statement it says that the instructions
6 envisage, and I'm going to quote:
7 "We were ordered to prevent the passage of anybody who was not
8 announced and who was not escorted by the BH MUP."
9 And further on it says:
10 "I can't remember the exact wording, but I believe that it was
11 recommend that all available means should be used in the discharge of the
12 task. The directive remained in Pudin Han, and I informed about the
13 contents thereof. The president of the board, Asim Egrlic."
14 Is that correct?
15 A. No.
16 Q. However, you personally know that at the TO Kljuc meetings and
17 the meetings of the staff there were discussions about certain activities
18 regarding the activities of the Kljuc TO?
19 A. There were no discussions about activities. TO had nothing but
20 the staff. No units were ever established as part of the TO. The
21 situation which followed prevented the full establishment of the
22 Territorial Defence.
23 Q. However, Mr. Egrlic, of course as you've already stated, there
24 were armed conflicts with the Serb forces towards the end of May and
25 thereafter in the course of 1992; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, there were conflicts, and I've already spoken about that.
2 There were village guards guarding their own homes, their own streets,
3 and they were involved in an incident with the Serbian police and the
5 Q. Yes. We've already heard about that, but while you were
6 incarcerated in Gradiska and Manjaca military camp, so I believe that you
7 spoke with people from Kljuc and you heard that there was fighting going
8 on in the Kljuc sector; is that right?
9 A. There was fighting. The Serb police and army opened fire in
10 order to intimidate the population and chase them away from their houses,
11 but there was no proper combat.
12 Q. And there were no killed on any of the two sides, according to
14 A. Yes, we've spoken about that. We spoke about that yesterday.
15 There was that one incident, and there was no other fighting after that.
16 Q. Look at page 12 in this statement, please. In paragraph 3,
17 page 12, it says that on the 28th of May the author of this statement
18 asked for the imprisoned soldiers to be brought across Manjaca and
19 Pudin Han. And further on he stated that the prisoners were in the area.
20 Did you know that the imprisoned Serbian soldiers were in the
21 region on the 28th of May? Yes or no.
22 A. I heard of that.
23 Q. The next paragraph in same statement on the same page, page 12,
24 it says that Mr. Filipovic as the TO commander and a politician
25 considered the possibility, the scheme, and the manner to organise
1 people's authority in an area and that he, himself, drafted such a
2 proposal and discussed that proposal with Asim Egrlic.
3 Do you remember those discussions was Mr. Filipovic?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You do not recall that the structure of the authorities of the
6 Muslim municipality of Kljuc
7 divided into several different sectors being the executive power,
8 internal affairs, All People's Defence, and everything else that
9 constitutes a self-government in a local commune? Do you remember that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. But you -- do you remember that you, yourself, were proposed as
12 in charge of executive power?
13 A. No, I don't remember that. I was already a member of the
14 executive power. I was its president.
15 Q. But that's why I am telling you all this. We're talking about
16 the Muslim municipality of Kljuc
17 because you were supposed to hold that position.
18 A. No. No. I don't remember that.
19 Q. And Amir Avdic, I suppose that he was the captain who was the
20 commander of the Muslim units there. Was he supposed to play a role in
21 the All People's Defence sector or in the TO? Do you remember that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And do you remember that Mr. Atif Dzafic should have played a
24 role in the internal affairs sector?
25 A. He was the police commander in Kljuc, the commander of the joint
2 Q. Okay. Therefore, according to you, these are the elements and
3 events which do not reflect the truth. They do not reflect what was
4 really going on in Kljuc. Yes or no?
5 A. This part no.
6 Q. Is there any part of this statement that we have just discussed
7 that you agree with?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You agree that an instruction came from the BH TO mentioning
10 Hasan Efendic and so on so forth?
11 A. I said that I was not aware of any such initiative.
12 Q. Did you hear from anybody else that there was an initiative of
13 that kind?
14 A. No. I heard it here, not before.
15 Q. So when you came here, I suppose that you do not doubt the
16 veracity of this document or the source that says that something like
17 that existed.
18 A. No, I can't say anything. I've not seen any documents, and I
19 don't know anything about that.
20 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Egrlic, let's now talk about something else.
21 Besides the statement that you provided in Manjaca, did you provide any
22 other statements to the security organs of the Serb authorities, be it
23 the military or the police authorities? Do you remember?
24 A. It is possible that I did.
25 Q. Please look at a document under tab 24 in our binder. It is a
1 65 ter 3016 document.
2 In the heading of this document it says "The public security
3 station in Kljuc." Right, Mr. Egrlic?
4 A. Yes, but I never gave any statement to the station.
5 Q. Wait a minute. We will get to that. The document is entitled
6 "Official Note;" correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the work of the organs of the interior, official note is a
9 document which contains a number of official information, pieces compiled
10 by authorised official, the policeman concerning an event or an interview
11 with a person. Would you agree with me?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. All right. So in this official note, in the first part of this
14 document it says that you stated that there was an idea to create the
15 municipality of Bosnian Kljuc and that there was some discussion of
16 establishing the TO of Bosnian Kljuc, because you and political officials
17 believed that there would be a division of the municipality of Kljuc
18 two municipalities, the Bosnian Kljuc and Kljuc municipality. Would that
19 be a correct representation of the events that we discussed?
20 A. No, not exactly. The person who wrote this did it as it suited
22 Q. All right. But in the continuation of this official note it says
23 that the precondition for that was a political agreement among all
24 parties, the SDA, the MBO, and the SDS
25 A. I didn't state things that are mentioned here. I don't know who
1 wrote this.
2 Q. Well, I'm just asking you whether this corresponds to the
3 activities and events and initiatives on the division of the
4 municipality, naturally based on the political consensus.
5 A. Yes, there were initiatives, and we discussed it already. It was
6 an initiative. That's all it was, nothing more than that.
7 Q. All right. And then in some previous discussions and based on
8 some previous information you were of the opinion that you, as you say,
9 did not talk to Muslims from SJB Kljuc who did not sign loyalty to the
10 Serbian Republic
11 they would agree to join the Staff Command because they had become
12 jobless and would do it in order to provide for their families. This is
13 correct, isn't it?
14 A. No, it isn't. I never stated that.
15 Q. And did you ever state, as it is written here in this official
16 note, at the end of page 1, that you found the support for the TO of
17 Bosnian Kljuc in the decision of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc where it
18 says that there could be village guards in the territory of the Municipal
19 Assembly of Kljuc? Is this a correct formulation of some of your
20 previous statements? Yes or no?
21 A. No. No. The staff commander was appointed pursuant to an order,
22 Hasan Efendic. We've already covered that.
23 Q. But there was a decision of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc on
24 placing village guards; right?
25 A. Yes, there was.
1 Q. What was your response? All right. All right. I have it.
2 Now, on page 2 of this official note it says that pursuant to a
3 request of the TO BiH on creating the Bosnian Kljuc TO, that pursuant to
4 that directive the late Mr. Filipovic was appointed, and he was a
5 lieutenant - that was his rank - and also an official.
6 A. No. He was appointed commander of TO of Kljuc municipality, not
7 Bosnian Kljuc.
8 Q. Well, we've covered that already. We see that your name is here
9 underneath it as well as the name of Captain Abdic, and in your previous
10 interviews with authorised officials you stated that village guards grew
11 into platoons and companies and within the framework of the TO
12 organisation. Correct or not?
13 A. No. That never really turned into reality.
14 Q. But let us just state for the record that there had been such
15 ideas about the organisation of the TO; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In the following paragraph they say that there were some
18 activities and initiatives concerning the arming. You testified in other
19 cases by saying that there had been cases of individual weapons
20 purchased; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also had that there was some aid coming from abroad for --
23 from people working abroad who sent money as they could.
24 A. It was the money for humanitarian assistance.
25 Q. But here you said at some point that this humanitarian assistance
1 funds were used to procure ammunition; correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And then you speak of an occasion where you travelled to Zagreb
4 to Croatia
5 mentioned Alija Bilic, that you travelled in your car, and that on that
6 occasion you took over 18.000 Swiss francs.
7 A. That was the assistance they provided for humanitarian aid.
8 Q. Did you take that money then to Sarajevo, to the SDA party? Did
9 you turn that money over for those purposes?
10 A. I didn't.
11 Q. Now, as for the weapons in possession of the TO and people from
12 your environment, were there any automatic weapons called ZAGI?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Was there a Slovenian automatic rifle?
15 A. I'm not aware of that.
16 Q. On page 3 it says that after being wounded, you buried these
17 Slovenian automatic rifle in the vicinity of your house. Do you remember
18 burying it?
19 A. I didn't bury it. Somebody invented this. God forbid that I
20 should do that while being wounded.
21 Q. Well, did somebody else bury it?
22 A. Who could have done it? These are invent stories.
23 Q. Well, some of your people perhaps.
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. Then in the next paragraph you say that there was a meeting in
1 Pudin Han on the 26th of May, in the culture hall. Do you remember
2 whether there was such a meeting?
3 A. It's possible. I don't remember. I don't know the date.
4 Q. And the culture hall was supposed to be the headquarters of your
5 TO staff; correct?
6 A. And it was once they expelled us from the municipality.
7 Q. And then following that it says that after the incident and
8 attack on the policemen of Kljuc you went home, that you were awoken by
9 Dr. Kapetanovic, and then you go on to describe this event in which you
10 wounded yourself. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes, I did wound myself. It's clear. I have mentioned it a
12 number of times so far.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have the next page up, please.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. With kind permission
16 of -- of Trial Chamber, if couple minutes more I would need to clarify
17 some issues. I hope I will have your support, Your Honour, in light of
18 the overall attitude of the Defence towards the time and judicial
19 economy, because we were really very, very cooperative with that regard,
20 and we have some credits on our -- thank you so much, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 deposit and withdraw time, but I take your point, Mr. Pantelic.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm really much obliged.
24 I would like to ask that given that this document has to do with
25 certain events, and I am aware of the fact that Mr. Egrlic doesn't say
1 so --
2 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] It's in the package.
3 MR. PANTELIC: 65 ter, yeah.
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] It's in the 92 ter
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document has been admitted as
8 MR. PANTELIC: So this is a part of 92 ter package. Thank you.
9 Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Egrlic, can we revisit the issue of the
11 voting in Kljuc municipality. Let me see which document that is. That's
12 65 ter 785. I'm not quite sure. It is in the OTP binder, Mr. Egrlic,
13 and -- just a moment, please. 31 in the OTP binder.
14 It's not terribly important. These documents are self-evident,
15 but for the sake of the transcript, we need to be quite specific.
16 Does it say 16th of January 1991?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. In the preamble of this document it says that on the
19 10th session held on the 26th of December, 1991, the following decision
20 was adopted. Can you confirm that?
21 A. Well, a number of documents are quoted here.
22 Q. That's fine, Mr. Egrlic. None of that is important. Let us
23 speed this up. Time flies, as you know.
24 So in the preamble of this document --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic, both versions, English and B/C/S,
1 say 1992. You're talking about 1991. The translation is.
2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour
3 Judge Delvoie. In the preamble of this document, I want to establish the
4 following fact with Mr. Egrlic: It says that at the 10th session of
5 Kljuc Municipal Assembly which was held on the 26th of December, 1991
6 the following decision was adopted.
7 Q. Can you confirm that, Mr. Egrlic?
8 A. In 1992.
9 Q. Well, what does it say in the preamble?
10 A. The 16th of January, 1992.
11 Q. Yes, but now if you go a bit lower. Maybe I'm not specific
12 enough when I say in the preamble. I mean the first paragraph. It says
13 "Pursuant to article 218," and so on "The Kljuc municipal assembly at its
14 10th session held on the 26th of December, 1991, adopted the following
16 Do you see that now?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So what is the point of this document? And you are somebody who
19 worked in the administration, so you know this. This decision was filed
20 in 1992, but it was adopted at the 10th session of Kljuc municipality in
21 December of 1991; right?
22 A. That's what it says here. However, in these documents we can see
23 a number of such decisions.
24 Q. No. I just ask you for this decision. We will be concluding
1 Mr. Egrlic, just give me another couple of pieces of information.
2 Naturally, if you have them. And this is the sort of information I need
3 from you: Can you see me? I'm not sure about the camera. I don't know
4 if you can see my directly.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Egrlic, tell me, please, do you know a person called
7 Bender, Esad?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who was Bender, Esad? What was his position? And just briefly.
12 In what capacity did you know him?
13 A. He is a relative of mine. That's how I knew him, as a relative.
14 He held no official positions.
15 Q. Does he live in Kljuc nowadays?
16 A. No. He was killed at Manjaca.
17 Q. Very well. Tell me, please --
18 A. It's not very well.
19 Q. Well, that's not how I meant it, naturally, and my deepest
20 condolences. That's not what I meant.
21 Do you know Ismet Muratagic?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Did he hold any position in the TO organisation, in the structure
24 of the TO?
25 A. Well, I knew him as a technician who -- a TV technician, but I
1 don't know what posts he held.
2 Q. Did he participate in combat operations in Kljuc?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know a person by the name Muharem Posavljak? He was the
5 imam or hodza.
6 A. Well, I've heard of the name, but I didn't know him personally.
7 Q. Did he have any role in the TO structure?
8 A. No. As far as I know, no.
9 Q. Did he play any role in the arming, in the supply of weaponry?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. Do you know a person, an imam, a religious person,
12 Hodza Emir Seferovic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever heard of name?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Fadil Pajic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you ever heard of him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know Islam Ikeljic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Egrlic. I have no further questions for you.
23 This completes my cross-examination.
24 JUDGE HALL
25 on behalf of Stanisic?
1 MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MS. KORNER: A have couple of questions, Your Honour.
4 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
5 Q. Mr. Egrlic, you were asked for the name of the reserve policeman
6 that you recognised who was one of the people who beat you up. Do you
7 remember that? This is at yesterday's transcript page 6104, and you said
8 that it was Boro Ceko. Do you remember that?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
10 The interpreter did not hear it.
11 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. I'm sorry. You'll have to lean towards the microphone again.
13 A. Yes, I do remember.
14 Q. Do you remember the other names of the people who were involved
15 in beating you up?
16 A. Well, I can't recall their names right now, but I do know the
17 people. I've met them in the past.
18 Q. Sorry, I interrupted. I'm going to ask you to have a look,
19 please, at a document.
20 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please, 65 ter 2852.
21 Your Honours, I'm afraid to say that I forgot to tell my
22 Case Manager, apparently, that I was going to use this document, so it's
23 not in e-court -- oh, it is. Oh, he doesn't have a copy of it, of
24 course. Right.
25 [Prosecution and Case Manager confer]
1 MS. KORNER: I'm asked if you can switch to -- the technicians
2 down there can switch the e-court screen, whatever.
3 Can we have up --
4 Q. Well, firstly, the document is -- I'll find the English version.
5 Right. The document is dated the 14th of July, 1992, addressed to
6 Banja Luka CSB
7 personnel and operatives engaged in the month of June 1992."
8 Can you --
9 MS. KORNER: Can we have up on the screen -- it won't be in
10 English -- well, perhaps the second page in English just so we can see
11 what's happening, and in B/C/S. Because it's just a list of names,
12 Your Honours, we've only translated -- it says, List of members of the
13 police reserve force of Kljuc SJB, and then we've done two. Could you
14 have please -- could we have up the second page in B/C/S up on the screen
15 for Mr. Egrlic.
16 Is that the second page? Okay. It should be page 3 at the
17 top -- page 2 at the top, so maybe the third page in B/C/S, please. Can
18 we focus in on number 48, please.
19 Q. Mr. Egrlic, is that the person you were referring to?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognise -- while we're on this page, and I'm sorry we
22 couldn't get you the document in advance, do you recognise any of the
23 other people named on this page as anybody who was involved in your
25 A. I don't recognise anyone.
1 Q. All right. Then I won't pursue this any further.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may this document be admitted and
3 marked, please.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, I mean, I must object to this. First
6 of all, this is the list for June. The witness was arrested in May. He
7 discuss about [indiscernible], how it's relevant with this witness.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, he was asked by Defence counsel on
9 behalf of Mr. Zupljanin, Do you remember the names of any of the people
10 you said were in the reserve police who beat you up? And he said, Yes,
11 this man Boro Ceko. And when we check the list of the Special Police, I
12 believe that's who's working in June, it says this man's name. It seems
13 to me that's -- that's admissible to corroborate his story. Whether or
14 not it was May or June, it seems to me a point that Your Honours can take
15 into account, but it doesn't stop it being admitted.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P961, Your Honour.
19 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Egrlic, I've only got one other question for you. You said
21 on a number of occasions in answers to questions from Mr. Pantelic, both
22 yesterday and today, that in -- I'll just get the reference.
23 You were asked about what was put to you as combat operations -
24 page 6115 - in Kljuc. You were asked:
25 "Were there any combat operations in the territory of Kljuc
1 the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived from Sanski Most? Were there any combat
2 operations at the time?"
3 And you said, "No."
4 And then later on at page 6126 you were asked again yesterday:
5 "Who was putting up resistance? Who participated in that?
6 "Nobody did," you said. "On the 27th of May they entered without
7 having fired a bullet. They entered, and they took up all strategically
8 significant locations, and it wasn't until later that Abdic separated
9 himself and moved on to Golaja."
10 And you were asked about this again today, but, Mr. Egrlic, just
11 to understand it, when you say there is no -- there were no combat
12 operations on the 27th of May and thereabouts in Kljuc, can we just make
13 it clear, what exactly do you mean?
14 A. Well, there were no combat operations on the 7th of May. On the
15 7th of May, the 6th Krajina Brigade walked into Kljuc and took up all --
16 and occupied Kljuc, took up all the significant positions and -- whereas
17 on the 27th of May there were some incidents, and we mention those.
18 These incidents occurred in areas where Bosniaks lived when the police
19 and the military went in there in order to disarm them, because on the
20 previous days there was this notice that was broadcast on the radio that
21 everyone should hand in their weapons, and in case of noncompliance that
22 there would be certain measures taken, and then a special unit was
23 formed, and when they walked into Rasulje this incident occurred. The
24 similar occurred in Pudin Han, in the Busija area. And on the 26th a
25 group of Serb soldiers walked into Crljeni, a Bosniak village, with
1 certain intentions. They were arrested, and then later on they were
2 released. And, in short, that's about it.
3 Q. Yes. Yes, I see. Yes, Mr. Egrlic, thank you very much indeed.
4 I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 you're now released as a witness. We wish you a safe journey back to
7 your home, and we take note of the personal hardship that you suffered in
8 the history of this matter. We wish you all the best for the future.
9 Thank you.
10 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
11 Ms. Korner.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers]... take the break. He's
15 probably somewhere there, but they're going to have to empty the room. I
16 mean, this is another videolink witness, so it may be as well to take the
17 break now.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 MS. KORNER: Yes. But, as far as I know, he's there, in the
21 JUDGE HALL
22 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, before the witness is ushered into
25 the room, we would like to go in a private session to discuss one aspect
1 which I discussed with my colleague, and I think it's appropriate that we
2 are in private session. Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 6164-6170 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
3 WITNESS: ATIF DZAFIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 [Witness testified via videolink]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have the witness's solemn declaration,
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
11 Good afternoon, sir. Can I have your name, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Atif Dzafic, from Kljuc.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dzafic, what is your date of birth, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 15th of April,
15 1950, in Sanica, the municipality of Kljuc
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And what is your profession?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a teacher of defence and
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your ethnicity, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- I'm Muslim by ethnicity and
21 by religion.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Did you testify before, previously
23 before this Tribunal?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did. I testified in
25 October 2002, in the case against Brdjanin and the late General Talic.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Then I think we can ask the
2 Prosecutor to move on. Thank you.
3 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examination by Ms. Pidwell:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic. Are you able to hear me?
6 A. Yes, I can hear you very well, and I wish you good afternoon too.
7 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you have a folder of documents that have been
8 sent by the Prosecution? Are they -- can they be put in front of you,
9 please, by the court registrar.
10 A. Yes, I have just received it.
11 Q. Throughout the course of this afternoon, sir, I'll be referring
12 you to some documents in that folder, but before I do, we have some
13 formal matters that we need to -- to go through because of the manner in
14 which you're testifying today.
15 Do you recall making a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor
16 on the 17th, 19th, and 20th of February in 2001?
17 A. Yes, I remember that statement, the statement that I provided at
18 the time to The Hague Tribunal investigator Paul Grady on the 17th, 19th
19 and 20 February 2001.
20 Q. And you'll find that statement, sir, at tab 1 in that folder.
21 You don't need to -- you don't need to look at it now. But do you recall
22 also making an addendum to that statement on the 27th of July, 2001
23 which you'll find at tab -- behind tab number 3.
24 A. I remember the addendum. Actually, it was, rather, a corrigendum
25 to that statement that I originally provided.
1 Q. Thank you. And when you came to The Hague to testify in the
2 Brdjanin case in 2002, do you recall meeting with an investigator before
3 you testified and making a supplemental list of some minor changes at
4 that time? You'll find that in tab -- behind tab 2 of your binder there.
5 A. Yes, I remember that addendum that I also provided to The Hague
6 investigator in The Hague
7 Q. Sir, when I met with you in December 2009, were you given the
8 opportunity to review your statement and the addendums at that time?
9 A. Yes. I had another opportunity to read the entire statement and
10 it's addenda, yes.
11 Q. And, sir, do you recall speaking with me about some additional
12 changes to some dates and spelling mistakes in the -- in the statement at
13 that time?
14 A. Yes. Yes, I remember these addenda as well that I made with you.
15 Q. Taking into account all of these -- these documents that I've
16 referred to just now, do you confirm that your statement accurately
17 reflects your evidence and that you would provide the same answers to
18 questions if you were asked under oath about these matters today?
19 A. Yes. I would give the same answers together with these addenda.
20 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying in the case of Brdjanin in 2002?
21 A. Yes. I think it was in October of 2002, in The Hague.
22 Q. And when you came to The Hague, you testified under a Rule
23 92 bis, which means that you -- your statement was tendered at that time,
24 and then you were asked questions by the Defence lawyers under
25 cross-examination. Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And if you were asked the same questions under cross-examination
3 today, would your answers be the same?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if I could formally tender his statement,
7 which is 65 ter number 9016.01. The supplementary -- or the addendum,
8 which is 65 ter 10247; the supplementary information sheet of 16 October
9 2002, which is 65 ter number 10246; the proofing note from December 2009
10 which is 65 ter number 9016.02; and this testimony in the Brdjanin case,
11 which has now been uploaded, Your Honours, and is 65 ter number 9016.03.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL
14 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the five documents will be
16 Exhibit P962.1 through P962.5.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm so sorry. Your Honours, we -- oh. The
18 LiveNote was stuck for a moment. Thank you very much.
19 MS. PIDWELL: There are also a number of associated exhibits in
20 this witness's 92 ter package, Your Honours, which I referred to in his
21 statement. They are predominantly photographs. There's two photographs
22 which are photospreads of members of the SJB and the Crisis Staff in
23 Kljuc at the time. And there are six photographs of Manjaca camp,
24 various views and photographs of inmates there. There's also his -- a
25 loyalty oath which he refers to in a statement, and his Red Cross
1 registration form from Manjaca camp. They're all specifically referred
2 to in his statement and form part of his 92 ter package, and I'd ask that
3 they each be admitted at this juncture, if I could read out the 65 ter
5 JUDGE HALL
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE HALL
8 number will be assigned a number by the Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The package will be
10 Exhibit P963.1 through P963.11.
11 MS. PIDWELL:
12 Q. Sir, that's the -- that's the formalities done, and because your
13 statement and prior testimony now form part of the evidence in this case,
14 I don't have to ask you matters -- about matters that are already in
15 evidence. But I'd like to ask you a few matters, questions about other
16 matters today, expanding on your testimony, and to ask you to view some
18 Sir, firstly, I'd like to ask you some questions about your time
19 as the commander of the Kljuc SJB before the split of the MUP. Now, we
20 know from your evidence that you were the police commander, firstly from
21 1982 until 1990, and then you were reappointed by the SDA in 1991. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes, precisely so.
24 Q. And can you recall when Vinko Kondic was appointed to become the
25 chief of the SJB in Kljuc?
1 A. Mr. Kondic was appointed chief of SJB in Kljuc later, towards the
2 end of July of that year. I was at the post of the commander of that
3 same SJB station.
4 Q. What year are you referring to, sir?
5 A. 1991. Second half of 1991, June or July. It is then that
6 Vinko Kondic was appointed chief of SJB in Kljuc.
7 Q. And you had been the commander for some eight years prior to
8 this. Was he employed by the police in any way before his appointment as
10 A. Before coming there, he did not work in the police. He worked in
11 some companies. I think that he worked in a construction company in
12 Kljuc prior to coming to this position. He had no police experience. He
13 started acquiring it once he was appointed to this position.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, are you able to recall approximately how many
15 members of the active police were -- formed part of the Kljuc SJB in
16 early 1991 -- sorry, early 1992?
17 A. In early 1992, at the police station which was then called SJB
18 Kljuc, was two police detachments in some other locations. We had a
19 total of 45 active police members.
20 Q. You've referred to the -- some other locations. Could you name
21 those locations, please?
22 A. Within the SJB Kljuc there were two detachments, branch offices,
23 in Sanica and Ribnik.
24 Q. And did these branch offices have an actual police station, a
1 A. Yes. These detachments had their own building, and they had
2 their own leader heading them. It was a squad commander, but in the
3 chain of command that squad commander comes below both the police
4 commander and chief of SJB.
5 Q. And in terms of distance, how far was the -- was the branch of
6 the Sanica substation from the Kljuc SJB?
7 A. About 20 or so kilometres. Both detachments were at that
8 distance, approximately, from the SJB in Kljuc. Fifteen to 20
10 Q. And were these substations full-time substations, or were they
11 just part-time ones?
12 A. These branch offices or detachments had regular duty hours in
13 eight-hour shifts for the entire 24 hours. So it was from 0 to
14 800 hours, from 800 hours to 1600 hours, and from 1600 hours to
15 2400 hours. In addition to this regular duty service, other services
16 were established as necessary, and these activities took place outside of
17 the building as necessary. For example, traffic inspection, patrolling,
18 and so on.
19 Q. Do you recall who was the squad commander of the Sanica
20 substation in early 1992?
21 A. In early 1992, squad commander in Sanica was Mr. Milan Tomic, who
22 had replaced the previous squad commander, Sejdo Adjimovic [phoen], who
23 had retired.
24 Q. And what was Milan Tomic's ethnicity?
25 A. Milan Tomic was a Serb. He came from the Serb ethnic community.
1 Q. And do you recall who was the squad commander at the Ribnik
2 substation at this time?
3 A. Mr. Dusan Stanarevic.
4 Q. And what was his ethnicity?
5 A. He was a Serb, of Serb ethnicity.
6 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you some questions now about the
7 check-points which were set up around Kljuc towards the beginning of
9 Firstly, do you recall when the check-points were first
11 A. As far as I can remember, the check-points were established in
12 the second half of 1991, starting in the fall of 1991.
13 Q. And do you recall how that came about? Did -- did an order come
14 from above for -- for check-points to be established? Or can you explain
15 how -- how that came about, please.
16 A. I don't remember. I did not see those orders, but from the
17 colleagues who were in the higher positions I learned that there would be
18 several check-points established at the entry point into Kljuc, into the
19 town of Kljuc.
20 Q. And do you -- do you recall who was tasked to man these
21 check-points? Was it police or military or military police?
22 A. I remember an informal conversation when Mr. Kondic, as chief of
23 the police station, talked to the deputy commander, Dragan Stojicic,
24 about the setting up of these check-points and the locations where they
25 would be placed and the markings and so on.
1 Q. Do you recall where the check-points were in -- in your
3 A. In Kljuc municipality there were check-points at Cadjavica, the
4 intersection towards Banja Luka; then in Rudenice settlement, which is
5 just before the entry into the town of Kljuc; and then in a place called
6 Busija, which is at the point where one leaves Kljuc; then at the
7 intersection for Sanski Most, which is Pudin Han; and at the intersection
8 for Sanica, which is in a location called Velagici. And in addition to
9 that there was a check-point in Sanica itself at the location near the
10 river of Sanica, at the intersection leading to Donja Sanica.
11 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you now to look at a photograph.
12 It's in tab 51, so it's the last document in possibly your second binder.
13 MS. PIDWELL: Can I just check the ERN with the Court Officer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 37.
16 MS. PIDWELL: And it's 65 ter number 10263.
17 THE REGISTRAR: It's also Exhibit P934, Your Honours.
18 MS. PIDWELL: We anticipate he'll mark this, so we may need
19 another P number for it.
20 Q. Sir, if you just have a look at this photograph. Are you able to
21 identify the main road, the main road to the left of the photograph?
22 A. Yes, I can recognise it.
23 Q. And can you please indicate whether the town of Kljuc is to the
24 top of the photograph or elsewhere.
25 A. I see the road which passes through the town of Kljuc, through
1 the town itself, and then there is a road which passes above, which was a
2 road normally taken by trucks. It's a circular road going around the
4 Q. And are you able to identify anything in -- in the middle of the
5 photograph? Do you see the white markings beside the road? Do you
6 recognise that?
7 A. In the middle I see the building of the police station. Police
8 station building, and then across from it is the courthouse. The
9 municipal building, the playground, the elementary school. So these were
10 the most significant buildings in the centre. And then further above are
11 the new -- newly constructed settlements.
12 Q. Thank you, sir.
13 MS. PIDWELL: If I could just ask the court officer to read the
14 number at the top right-hand side of the photograph that the witness is
15 looking at, please.
16 I'm sorry, Your Honours. It appears that the witness is looking
17 at a different photograph than to what we had anticipated. The digit
18 is -- there's one digit wrong, so I'll just leave that matter for the
19 time being.
20 Q. Sir, the photograph that you have - thank you for that - we have
21 the -- I'm not sure what you've been given now. It was a different
22 photograph than what I was looking at, and so we just need to check with
23 the Registrar to make sure we're both literally on the same page, and
24 we'll go back to that document in a little while.
25 Sir, going back to the check-points, did you ever go through the
1 check-point at Velagici?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And can you tell us, please, how far that check-point was from
4 the school at Velagici?
5 A. In the territory of Velagici
6 old elementary school was some 50 metres from the road, which was at the
7 intersection for Sanica.
8 Q. Sorry, sir. Could you just repeat how many metres from the road?
9 A. From the main road some 50 to 70 metres, from the intersection.
10 Well, perhaps up to 100 metres. I never measured it. From the
11 check-point in Velagici.
12 Q. And do you know if this check-point at Velagici was staffed by
13 police from Kljuc or the substations?
14 A. In the beginning, the check-points were manned by mixed teams of
15 active and reserve policemen. However, after some time members of the
16 army started coming to the check-points, who then manned those
17 check-points together with policemen.
18 Q. Thank you. And was -- was it the job of the policemen and
19 soldiers who were manning these check-points to stop every vehicle that
20 was going past, or was it in their discretion to choose which ones to
22 A. You know, it's hard to be quite specific here. Which vehicle
23 would be stopped and what measures would be taken in relation to a driver
24 or a vehicle, it is something that depended on the people who manned the
25 check-point. Certain vehicles which transported uniformed persons would
1 pass through without any hindrance, whereas others, civilian vehicles,
2 did not have that advantage. They did not pass through in that way.
3 They would be inspected and certain measures would be taken on a
4 case-by-case basis.
5 Q. Thank you. I want to now move to a different topic, and in your
6 statement you -- you talk about special or manoeuvring units, and I'm
7 specifically referring to page 8 of your statement. You talk about --
8 firstly, you talk about the Red Berets coming to Kljuc prior to the
9 takeover, so in early 1992.
10 Can you please tell us what your understanding was of the role of
11 the Red Berets who came to Kljuc at this time?
12 A. Let me put it this way: Red Berets, a group of some ten of them,
13 members of that unit, appeared in Kljuc sometime in late 1991 and early
14 1992. According to the information that I had, they had come to assist
15 the active police forces and to prevent incidents and deterioration of
16 public law and order caused by soldiers who returned from the
17 battle-field, were drunk, opened fire, and so on and so forth. They were
18 billeted in the TO staff, and occasionally, every now and then when I was
19 still a member of the SJB, one of them whom we called Dragan came to see
20 the chief, and sometimes he assisted us active police officers in our
21 daily policing duties.
22 I believe that at first their intentions were good. They did
23 introduce some order. They prevented the state of disorder from
24 developing in Kljuc. What transpired after that I don't know, because
25 already in early May I was removed from my job.
1 I remember that one of them, Dragan -- we knew most of them by
2 their nicknames. They used police vehicles, and that Dragan, he was once
3 involved in a traffic accident driving one of those police cars.
4 Q. And were the Red Berets still in Kljuc at the time when you were
5 removed from your job?
6 A. I wouldn't know that. On the 7th of May I was forcibly
7 removed -- or, rather, it was sometime in mid-May when I was forcibly
8 removed from the police station in Kljuc. Red Beret members were well
9 trained, and they instilled fear among those who arrived from the
10 battle-field and caused incidents in the streets, in the cafes, who used
11 weapons in order to intimidate the civilian population and so on and so
13 Q. So during your last month in your role as commander of the SJB
14 Kljuc, before you were removed, do you recall if the Red Berets were
15 still in the area?
16 A. Yes. Yes. I believe that in February, March, April that that
17 unit was already in Kljuc. There were some ten of them. They were on
18 duty in the TO staff in Kljuc on a regular basis. They were there.
19 Q. Thank you. I now want to ask you some questions about the -- the
20 special unit or -- I think you've used the term "manoeuvring unit" in
21 your statement.
22 Firstly, during your time as the commander of the SJB Kljuc,
23 during your eight-year term, did you have these special units, these
24 manoeuvring units, or was this a new thing?
25 A. I don't remember the exact date when a manoeuvre unit was
1 established. But I know that before 1992, four or five years before
2 that, that there was indeed a manoeuvring unit which consisted of the
3 active police members who accounted for some 30 per cent, whereas the
4 rest were reserve police members. That unit was mostly composed of
5 younger and somewhat more capable members of the police, and that unit
6 was headed by an officer from the ranks of the regular police from the
7 SJB in Kljuc. That unit could only react and act in the territory of
8 Kljuc municipality, and its commander co-ordinated its activities with
9 the chief of the Kljuc SJB. However, it could also act in other
10 municipality in concert with the unit that belonged to that other
11 municipality. In that case, that unit would be under the command of a
12 person appointed by the CSB
13 his inner command office.
14 By establishment in Kljuc, it consisted of two platoon of some
15 30 men, and each of the platoons had squads with their particular
16 specialties. For example, there was a logistics squad, a shooter squad,
17 a squad that was trained to handle -- or to disperse masses in the
18 instances of -- or crowds which gathered. And there was also a squad of
19 members who were trained as shooters and underwent frequent target
21 I remember an exercise that had taken place sometime in 1992 when
22 the purpose of our training was to destroy a sabotage group that was
23 allegedly infiltrated into the area of Kljuc, and than unit was under the
24 command of an officer's -- officer from Kljuc, and that training exercise
25 which took place four or five years before 1992 took place somewhere in
1 the -- in the area of Ribnik.
2 Q. Thank you. In your statement you've referred to going to visit
3 the manoeuvring unit from Kljuc when they were training at Manjaca in
4 early 1992. Do you recall that?
5 A. Yes. I was still station commander, and together with the chief
6 we went to visit our unit which was in training in Manjaca together some
7 other manoeuvre units from the territory of Banja Luka.
8 Q. Sir, was this -- had this unit been trained at Manjaca before, or
9 was this the first time that the training had taken place at this
11 A. As far as I can remember, that was the first time that training
12 took place in Manjaca locality. For as long as I was in office, I don't
13 remember any other previous training exercise that might have taken place
14 in the territory of Manjaca
15 Q. And we know from your statement that -- that you were still the
16 police commander at this time, in February 1992. Can you tell us when
17 this unit returned from their training, were they deployed while you were
18 still the commander?
19 A. Our manoeuvring unit participated in that training, during
20 training in Manjaca. At that time, it was supposed of some 30 per cent
21 active police officers and some 70 per cent of reserve police officers.
22 Upon the end of that training, the active police officers continued
23 performing their normal police -- policing duties, whereas reserve
24 policemen were mostly employees of other companies, schools. They were
25 teachers of defence, younger persons who, having completed their
1 training, returned to their original workplaces, to their original jobs,
2 as far as I know.
3 Q. And just finally on this topic, sir, what uniforms did -- did
4 this unit wear, this special manoeuvring unit?
5 A. Members of our manoeuvring unit wore standard flannel uniforms
6 that were a standard issue for the reserve police. Those were former JNA
8 Q. And please excuse my ignorance, but what colour were they?
9 A. Blue. Blue. Greyish, olive-drab, blue -- blue, actually.
10 That's the colour.
11 Q. Thank you. Sir, if I could ask you to look at a document that's
12 in the binder behind tab 23. It's 65 ter 791.
13 Sir, you'll see this document is dated the 24th of April, 1992
14 Are you familiar with a document of this nature?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And can you please tell us what this is?
17 A. I have not had an occasion to see either this or similar
18 documents. However, based on what happened, I can provide my comment
19 upon this document.
20 The TO weapons was stored originally in a depot which was housed
21 in the basement of the Kljuc police station. Sometime in 1990 or
22 thereabouts, new premises were arranged in the municipality building.
23 They were warehouses of the TO there in the basement, and on the first
24 floor there were TO offices, and the weapons that was -- that were stored
25 in the police station in Kljuc were then transferred to the new premises.
1 However, sometime in early 1992, the weapons were again moved from the
2 depot in the municipality building which caused a reaction among the
3 citizens, and I remember that very well.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated] What was the reaction?
5 A. They asked me why that was done and who had allowed that to be
6 done. Those were weapons intended for the Kljuc TO, and it was moved to
7 the territory of Mrkonjic
8 answer to that question. However, I remember very well that morning when
9 those weapons were transferred from the depot in the municipality
10 building which was under the control of the municipal organs -- or,
11 rather, the TO staff to the territory of Mrkonjic
12 territory of Kula where they were stored.
13 Q. Sir, the document states that an agreement had been reached with
14 the chief of the Kljuc SJB that the weapons be taken out of the storeroom
15 there. Were you aware of this in your role as commander at the time?
16 A. I believe that I should have been informed. However, I was not
17 aware of that agreement, just like I did not know of many other events
18 that I should have been informed about as commander. I only learned
19 about many of them subsequently from my fellow citizens, from police
20 officers that I commanded.
21 Q. And it also states in the document that Green Berets were posing
22 a threat at this time. Were you aware of Green Berets in the area in
23 April 1992?
24 A. This settlement called Vrhpolje belongs to Sanski Most
25 municipality, so I was not privy to information nor was I in a position
1 to know. I was familiar with Velagici. I never saw nor did I have an
2 opportunity to see what a member of Green Berets looked like.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 a convenient point.
5 We resume in 20 minutes.
6 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.
8 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I wonder if the document that we were
9 talking to before the break, which is 65 ter 791, can be admitted,
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P964, Your Honours.
13 MS. PIDWELL:
14 Q. Sir, I wonder if you could turn to the document in your binder
15 which is behind tab 21. Its 65 ter 799.
16 Sir, are you familiar with this document?
17 A. I see that the document represents a list of people who were
18 issued with weapons.
19 Q. If you could --
20 A. At first glance I am familiar with some of the names.
21 Q. If you could turn to the last page of the document, which is page
22 5 in the B/C/S, and just the same page for the English as we've only had
23 the first page and the last portion translated, and they're on the same
25 You'll see a signature and a stamp there. Sir, do you recognise
1 the signature?
2 A. This is the signature by my former chief of public security
3 station, Mr. Kondic. And the stamp is also of the public security
5 Q. And the title to the document is that it's a list of persons who
6 have been issued with weapons. Did you know of this document before you
7 were removed from the SJB Kljuc in 1992?
8 A. I was not familiar with the document. I've not seen it at all,
9 but now I understand that stories among citizens talking about policemen
10 issuing Serbs with weapons, that those stories were actually true.
11 Q. I'd ask you to look, sir, at page 4 of the B/C/S. The top half
12 of the page. Are there any names on there that are familiar to you?
13 A. I believe that in the second paragraph Grujo Stojicic,
14 Velimir Malesevic, Petko Sukara are members of the reserve police in
15 Sitnica, the local commune of Sitnica.
16 In the first paragraph under number 112, I can see
17 Pero Ljubanic's name. That was my former school colleague, and he lived
18 in Velagici -- or, rather, in the settlement of Kopjenica.
19 Q. And did you encounter any of these men after you were detained
20 in -- after June 1992?
21 A. Two of these men here, Velimir Malesevic, Petko Sukara and
22 perhaps Miro Peric, I saw when I was arrested and incarcerated in the gym
23 at the Sitnica school. They were members of the reserve force, and they
24 provided security for all of us prisoners in the school.
25 Q. Thank you, sir.
1 MS. PIDWELL: If I could have that admitted and marked at this
3 JUDGE HALL
4 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, can we have the date of this document,
5 and year?
6 MS. PIDWELL: It doesn't have a date.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Who's document is it? What's the provenance of
8 this document?
9 MS. PIDWELL: Sir, it's a document; it's stamped and signed,
10 signed by Vinko Kondic, who was the chief of the SJB Kljuc. It's got the
11 SJB Kljuc stamp on it. And the Prosecution is tendering it to show that
12 members -- the witness has said that members of the reserve police who
13 were on this list were involved in the detention facilities where he was,
14 and this document shows that they were on this list. It's the
15 Prosecution's -- accepts that it's not dated, but it's -- by the very
16 nature of the document it's submitted that it's an early 1992 document.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: I can see that. We can only guess.
18 MS. PIDWELL: In my submission it will go to the weight that the
19 Chamber puts on this document rather than it's admissibility.
20 MR. KRGOVIC: What's the base of that, that it's a document from
22 JUDGE HALL
23 context. Admittedly it doesn't have a date, as the Prosecution can see,
24 but there is a context. It isn't just a document that is --
25 MR. KRGOVIC: He's never seen this document, or wasn't aware
1 about the existence of this document.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Ms. Pidwell.
4 MS. PIDWELL: Well, yes. That's certainly what the witness has
6 JUDGE HALL
7 that he has not previously seen.
8 MS. PIDWELL: No, but he has confirmed the signature and the date
9 of the document. He knows Vinko Kondic; he worked with him, and he knows
10 his signature and the stamp of the SJB.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MR. KRGOVIC: Sorry, the witness.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 Yes, admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As P965, Your Honour.
16 MS. PIDWELL:
17 Q. I now want to ask you, sir, some questions about some logbooks
18 and rosters.
19 MS. PIDWELL: And I've had a discussion with my learned friends.
20 I'm not sure of the complete outcome of our discussion, and I wonder
21 whether I can inquire of my learned friend at this stage whether these
22 documents or these logbooks can go in by agreement once the witness
23 verifies them.
24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, only if the witness
25 knows something about the events, if he has personal knowledge about the
1 events mentioned in the diary. Otherwise, I don't see a point of
2 tendering this particular document through this particular witness. So
3 let's keep to the standard and the instructions that you have provided us
4 with regard to the witnesses and documents.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MS. PIDWELL: Now, Your Honours have been provided with a hard
7 copy of -- there are five -- there are five logbooks, and they are
8 A3-size books which we have copied the relevant portions of and wish to
9 tender the portions within the indictment period of these books. Because
10 of the difficulties with the videolink and the nature of this evidence,
11 we've provided hard copies for Your Honours, hopefully which will assist
12 you in following through this course of testimony.
13 Q. Sir, if I could ask you to look at the document which is at
14 tab 46 of your -- I think it's your second binder. 65 ter 2890. 2890.1,
15 because it's the excerpt of the document.
16 Sir, if you turn to the -- if you have the first page in front of
17 you, which is a photocopy, do you recognise that?
18 A. Yes, I recognise it. This is a log-book that existed in every
19 police station. It's actually a duty roster of every policeman for every
20 month, every date, periods from/to, and the type of policing duty that
21 such a policeman was engaged in.
22 Q. Thank you. And we see on the front cover it says it's the Kljuc
23 duty roster from May 1992 until September 1993. When you worked at the
24 SJB in Kljuc, did you have this kind of log-book to record the rosters of
25 the active and reserve police?
1 A. Yes, we had such duty rosters. Every department or detachment
2 had such duty rosters. Every squad had to do it for each policeman,
3 segregated by dates, days, and the types of duties that they had to
4 perform each month.
5 Q. Thank you. And if you could turn now, please, to the next page,
6 which should have the number 0629-3199.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Sir, is that your name at number 1?
9 A. Yes, my name. First and last name, number 1.
10 Q. And we can see at the top it's headed "May 1992," and it lists
11 24 names and that page. Do you know --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know the policeman listed beneath your name?
14 A. Yes, Dragan Stojicic, who was at the position of the deputy
15 commander. He was the deputy of the commander of the SJB in Kljuc, that
16 is to say, my deputy.
17 Q. And am I right in saying that along the top we have a list of
18 numbers and they reflect the dates of the month, and then a member of --
19 of the SJB would insert the hours in which each police officer worked
20 beneath the date.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Sir, perhaps you could assist us with some of the terminology or
23 the coding used in this book. I see the letter D used. What does that
25 A. Let me give you some comments about Vejin, Marinko under
1 number 4. He has the D designation, and then underneath are the hours
2 and period when he worked. D stands for "Duty service," and they mostly
3 worked in the duty service. That means that he was on duty at the public
4 security station.
5 Q. Thank you. And can we go down the list to number 17, because I
6 see a coding there, PUV. Could you explain that, please.
7 A. Under number 17, P stands for "patrol duty," beat policeman duty
8 that a policeman perform in a settlement, in town, but at any rate,
9 outside of the security station. If you look at number 17 and then
10 number 21, then number 24, from the 7th or 8th of May they have
11 designation GO, meaning "annual leave." The 7th of May was the date when
12 I and other Muslim policemen, since we refused to sign loyalty to the
13 Serbian authorities, were relieved of duty and sent on annual leave in
14 order for us to change our minds. Some 15 days later, we had to again
15 state whether we accepted to sign loyalty or not.
16 Q. Thank you. And are you able to explain some other codings that
17 we see there? If we start with PUV, what does that represent?
18 A. PUV. Let me just say that this log-book should have had a
19 legend, but PUV stands for "check-point at Velagici." PU is
20 "check-point," and then the next letter is the first letter of the
21 settlement where the check-point was located.
22 Q. We also see the letters KS. For example, number 24, on the
23 right-hand side of the page, page 3200. Now, what does that represent?
24 A. KS is an acronym for "traffic control." You see that the
25 policeman under number 24, on the 19th, worked on traffic control duties
1 from 15 to 2300 hours.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. If you can turn now to another page in that
3 document which has the number at the top 0629-3203.
4 Do you have that, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Could you read out for us the heading at the top which is
8 A. This shows the list of engaged reserve forces performing police
10 Q. Thank you. I'd like you now to turn further on in the document
11 where the page number is 0629-3215. It's headed at the top "June 1992."
12 Do you have that, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Perhaps you could explain, sir, the -- where it says under
15 number 1 -- we see the letters [sic] 24. What does that mean?
16 A. Under number 1 it says "Dragan Stojicic," and then it says that
17 on the 1st of June he was engaged for 24 hours, and then all the way up
18 until the 13th. So for 13 days he was engaged for 24 hours, which means
19 that he was somewhere out in the field, outside of Kljuc municipality.
20 That was the rule. Whenever a policeman was absent and was working out
21 in the field providing security somewhere, then all 24 hours would be
22 counted as working hours and entered in the log-book.
23 Q. Thank you. Sir, are you aware of -- can you give us an example
24 of something which would engage a police commander for 24 hours during
25 the course of your time as a police commander? Was this a -- what I'm
1 asking, really, was this an unusual occurrence or was this standard
3 A. Well, while I was employed only in cases where there was an
4 exercise held somewhere out in the field outside of Kljuc municipality or
5 we were providing security somewhere, then 24 hours would be counted as
6 working hours and recorded as such, but there were very few such cases.
7 I barely remember any.
8 Q. Thank you, sir.
9 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if I can admit this document at this
11 JUDGE HALL
12 or everything in the binder?
13 MS. PIDWELL: No, just this log-book, sir, the Kljuc SJB roster
14 log-book, the particular pages that we have selected between those dates.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 admitted and marked.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: It's not an objection. Just for the clarity of the
18 transcript, I would like Ms. Pidwell to name the 65 ter number of the
19 document which we are admitting. Thank you very much.
20 MS. PIDWELL: 2890.1.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be admitted as
22 Exhibit P966.
23 MS. PIDWELL:
24 Q. Sir, there's another document I would like you to look at which
25 is similar. It's behind tab 43 in your binder. 65 ter 2888.1.
1 Actually, it's in your first binder.
2 Do you have the first page there, sir? And if you do, could you
3 please advise if you're familiar with -- with this log-book.
4 A. Yes. This is the duty roster kept at the branch office in
5 Gornji Ribnik. These duty rosters were normally kept by squad
7 Q. And if you turn to the next page, sir, which is headed "April
8 1992," and the ERN number is 0629-2975. We see some names there. Are
9 you able to confirm that they're names of police officers who were
10 stationed at the Ribnik substation at that time?
11 A. From number 1 through 4 are active police officers whom I knew
12 personally. They were my subordinates. As for the rest, from 5 onwards
13 were members of the reserve police strength.
14 Q. Thank you. Now could I ask you to turn to the July page. It's
15 head "July 1992," and at the top is 0629-2985.
16 Do you have that, sir?
17 A. Yes, I have that. The squad commander is under 1. From the 1st
18 to the 20th, he was at Manjaca. I was an eyewitness to that, because he
19 was one of the guards at Manjaca while I was incarcerated there.
20 Q. Thank you, sir.
21 MS. PIDWELL: I'd seek to admit and mark that document at this
23 JUDGE HALL
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P967.
25 MS. PIDWELL:
1 Q. Now can I ask you to turn to the document behind tab 44, which is
2 65 ter 2889.1.
3 Do you recognise this log-book, sir?
4 A. This is a roster of the Sanica Reserve Police Station, and I'm
5 familiar with it. I know that it was kept in the squad.
6 Q. Thank you. And if you can turn to the next page, which is headed
7 "April 1992," 0629-3106.
8 Do you -- are you able to comment on the names number 1 to 6
9 listed there?
10 A. From 1 to 6 are active police officers who worked in the Sanica
11 police squad. Their commander was Milan Tomic, under number 1. Here you
12 have him.
13 Q. Thank you. And if you turn to the next page, which is headed
14 also "April 1992," that has the heading 0629-3108. You'll see the
15 numbering starts again at the top.
16 Are you able to comment on whether the names there are active or
17 reserve police station -- policemen?
18 A. On this page you can see members of the reserve of police force
19 who performed duties of reserve policemen in Stanica. They were headed
20 by Ferid Harambasic whom I knew well, and so on and so forth.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MS. PIDWELL: I'd seek to admit and tender that document as well,
24 JUDGE HALL
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P968, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mrs. Pidwell, I would like to ask something in
2 relation to the witness. If I take the April roster, 3106, the
3 witness -- the witness said that that was -- 1, 2, 3 to 6 are the police
4 officers. Are there any -- any police officers from Muslim ethnicity
5 between them? The witness says he knows them all.
6 MS. PIDWELL:
7 Q. Mr. Dzafic, are you able to answer His Honour's question? In the
8 April 1992
9 you, are any of the active police members there of -- what is the
10 ethnicity of them?
11 A. Under number 3, 5, and 6 are policemen, Suad Medic,
12 Resid Omerovic, and Adnan Temimovic. They were Muslim Bosniaks, whereas
13 the others are Serb policemen.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know them personally, and to this
16 very day I speak to some of them, and we drink coffee together.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks. Thank you.
18 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry. If we could have that document back before
19 the witness again, please.
20 Q. Sir, just following on from Judge Delvoie's question, if I could
21 refer you to June 1992, 0629-3116.
22 Can you comment on the ethnicity of the police officers listed on
23 that page.
24 A. On this page you can see active and reserve policemen, and they
25 are all Serbs. They're all Serb ethnicity. Sometime in mid-May -- or,
1 rather, on the 7th of May these policemen, the reserve policemen from the
2 ranks of Bosnian -- Bosnian ethnicity, refused to pledge loyalty to the
3 Serb authorities, and they left the ranks of the reserve police force.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm now going to ask you to look at another
5 document which is behind tab 45 in your binder and is 65 ter 2893.
6 Do you have that document in front of you, sir, or that ...
7 A. This is a roster in which the duty police officer in Kljuc --
8 JUDGE HALL
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- during --
10 JUDGE HALL
11 MS. PIDWELL: Sorry. This document's -- it's also a log but a
12 different sort, and we won't be as meticulous with this one, so this one
13 hasn't been provided to you in hard copy.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 MS. PIDWELL:
16 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Dzafic. Please continue.
17 A. This is a duty log-book. Every duty police officer who was on
18 duty usually from 8.00 onwards had to record everything that happened
19 during his duty service and what they did. They recorded events, reports
20 that the duty service reserved, reports by citizens, and so forth. In
21 any case, this log-book is a record of events, and every duty officer had
22 to enter the data upon the end of their duty service.
23 Q. Thank you. During the course of -- of your duties at the SJB
24 Kljuc, did you enter the daily events in this book or a book like this,
25 or was that someone else's role?
1 A. Let me tell you this: On page 1, which is 3601, this report was
2 subsequently checked by the commander or his deputy. On the first page I
3 recognise my initial showing that I inspected this report entered on the
4 28th of February, 1992. The duty police officer had recorded what was
5 happening during the eight hours of his duty.
6 Q. Thank you. I want to refer you to a particular page which at the
7 top has a heading 0629-3754. If I could draw your attention, sir, to the
8 second half -- the bottom of the page where there's an entry for the
9 1st of April, 1992. You were still working at the SJB Kljuc at this
10 time. Are you familiar with this entry?
11 A. Just give me a moment to read, and then I can answer. I don't
12 remember, but I know that during that period I was informed about that
13 meeting. I can't remember what the topic of the meeting was. It was a
14 long time ago, and I have not had the opportunity to inspect the log-book
16 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir.
17 MS. PIDWELL: I see, Your Honours, that the English translation
18 hasn't come up on your screen, which may put you at a slight
19 disadvantage. I'm told it's in e-court. Page 23.
20 Q. Sir, we're just having some technical issues here, so if you'd
21 just bear with us.
22 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this log-book.
23 I'm happy to go through more dates with the witness if that is required.
24 I'm in your hands, really, as to -- he's authenticated the book. It was
25 in use while he was there. His name appears in it, and I'm wondering how
1 much more I need to do in order to convince you that it's appropriate to
2 tender at this stage.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, it's not a problem, except that what
5 does it intend to show, other than he was there and ...
6 MS. PIDWELL: Sir, the log-book has entries for the relevant
7 dates in the indictment, the takeover of the municipality of Kljuc
8 two dates of massacres that we plead, and it also has numerous entries
9 about dispatches going to and from CSB Banja Luka to Kljuc and back
10 again. I can take him through all of that if necessary.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P969, Your Honour.
14 MS. PIDWELL: As an extension of that, Your Honours, the next --
15 the daily events log-book continues on. This was a period from the 28th
16 of February, 1992, until the 31st of July, 1992. The next document
17 starts on the 1st of August, 1992, and carries on until the 7th of
18 October, 1992. It's the same book, but it just continues on with those
19 dates. Now, it's accepted that this witness was not present at the
20 SJB Kljuc at this time because he was detained, but it's a continuation
21 of the same book, and the Prosecution would like to tender it in order to
22 prove or to show the consistencies of the communication at that time.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you. That's 65 ter 2891.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P970.
1 MS. PIDWELL:
2 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you to look at another document which is
3 behind tab 31 in your binder. It's 65 ter 821. Sir, do you recognise
4 the signature at the bottom of the page?
5 A. No, I don't. Actually, I'm not sure. In any case, it was not
6 signed by the SJB chief.
7 Q. Are you aware of any circumstances when the SJB chief would not
8 sign a document, and if so, who would sign in his place?
9 A. In his absence he would choose either the commander of the SJB or
10 the head of the group for crime prevention.
11 Q. And are you able to advise the Court whether the -- any of the
12 nine men listed there were with you at Manjaca?
13 A. This is a list of people who were sent to Manjaca. Under 1, I
14 know this person personally. I meet him every day. Irfan Besic. I know
15 that he was one of those who were brought to Manjaca. I know the other
16 names as well, but Irfan Besic is my friend and ...
17 Q. And, sir, are you able to confirm that these people were detained
18 at Manjaca while you were there?
19 A. I can't confirm the exact date when they arrived. There were
20 three buildings in Manjaca surrounded by one barbed -- barbed-wire fence.
21 There were between 60 [as interpreted] and 80 [as interpreted] people in
22 each of the buildings, and there were about 1.200 people from the
23 territory of Kljuc. I know number 9 in this list. I know him
24 personally. And I know number 2. They're still living and working in
1 Q. And those persons listed at numbers 2 and 9, are you able to
2 advise whether they were at Manjaca while you were there?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the number of people
5 in each building was between 600 and 800.
6 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask that document be admitted and marked.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 Ms. Pidwell. He, as I understand it, recognises some of the names of the
9 persons who were at the Manjaca camp. He didn't make the document. Is
10 there -- is there sufficient nexus between him and this document?
11 MS. PIDWELL: Well, sir, he knows that the police chief
12 Vinko Kondic was the police chief at Manjaca [sic]. He says he didn't --
13 he was able to say that he -- that wasn't his signature, which seems to
14 go to the fact that he -- he doesn't know the signature of the -- of the
15 police chief. It goes to -- it's a document that came from his former
16 place of work, and it's fully accepted that he didn't write it himself,
17 but he's able to confirm that at least two of those people were present
18 at Manjaca with him.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 only reservation is whether this is the appropriate witness.
21 MS. PIDWELL: Well, sir --
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL
24 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, sir.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P971, Your Honours.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Just one comment, Your Honours. I'm not sure
2 the -- the transcript says line [sic] 72, 16, Ms. Pidwell: "He knows
3 that the police chief Vinko Kondic was the police chief at Manjaca."
4 I guess that was a mistake, yes?
5 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, it should read Kljuc.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: That is exactly what I -- thank you.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 we note that the time that you've asked for, you've almost doubled it and
9 you're not yet completed. Where --
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, initially the -- both this witness
12 and the previous witness, we'd estimated one hour on our initial list.
13 When they became videolink witnesses -- we weren't aware that they were
14 going to be videolink witnesses initially. When they became videolink
15 witnesses, we increased the time estimate and advised the Trial Chamber
16 that they would be two hours each.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, my mistake then.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 minutes left.
20 MS. PIDWELL:
21 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at another document, please. It's
22 behind tab 34 in your binder. It's 65 ter 831. I'd ask you to look at
23 that document, sir. You see it's dated the 29th of August, 1992. Do
24 you -- do you recognise the signature on that document?
25 A. This is the signature of Zeljko Dragic who signed for the chief,
1 and he was head of the crime prevention department within the SJB.
2 Q. Thank you. And if we turn to -- we see that it contains a fairly
3 extensive list of names, up to number 1.163, and is a list of prisoners
4 from Kljuc who have been sent to Manjaca.
5 If I can refer you, sir, to the page -- well, it might be easier
6 to give you the number. Number 685. Page 0059-5016.
7 Do you see your name there, sir?
8 A. 685 is where my first and last names are, my father's name, date
9 of birth, and "Kljuc municipality."
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. PIDWELL: I'd ask that this document be admitted and marked.
12 JUDGE HALL
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P972, Your Honours.
14 MS. PIDWELL:
15 Q. Sir, do you recall when you were -- when you returned to the
16 position of commander of the SJB Kljuc after the war?
17 A. Yes, certainly. On the 1st of February, 1996. I was appointed
18 chief of the public security station in Kljuc.
19 Q. And during the course of your work in that role, were you
20 involved in a number of investigations into exhumations that took place
21 in the municipality of Kljuc
22 A. As chief of the public security station in Kljuc, I was naturally
23 aware and involved, first of all, in discovering the locations of mass
24 graves. Twelve mass graves were discovered in the territory of Kljuc
25 municipality, out of which over 410 persons were exhumed and over
1 90 per cent of them were identified. Plus there were additionally some
2 120 individual graves. The locations of these mass graves were at
3 Laniste Jedan, Laniste 2, Crvena Zemlja 1, Crvena Zemlja 2, Vrhovo 1,
5 territory of Kljuc
6 exhumations of two mass graves which are not located in Kljuc
7 municipality. Those are the mass graves in Golubnjaca, Grbija [phoen]
8 municipality and Tihotina, Bihac municipality. I'm mentioning these two
9 mass graves because among the exhumed bodies they also found citizens
10 from the territory of Kljuc
11 Q. Thank you. I'd first like to ask you just a couple of questions
12 about the exhumations that took place at Laniste 2. Firstly, can you
13 tell the Tribunal where the exhumations took place in relation to the
14 town of Kljuc.
15 A. Your Honours, the location of the Laniste 2 mass grave is near
16 the main road between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, from the intersection
17 and check-point at Velagici some 3 to 4 kilometres onwards, and then to
18 the right, turning to the right on the macadam road, in the forest at the
19 foothills of Grmec Mountain
20 called Avnoj road.
21 I was the first one to receive information from a neighbour who
22 is a great friend of mine to this day, and he's a Serb. He gave me
23 information on the location of this mass grave. We immediately proceeded
24 to exhume it. We were among the first ones to do that in early 1996.
25 Q. Thank you, sir.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I have the court record of that
2 exhumation, which in the witness's binder, number 39. It's 65 ter 2518,
3 and I'd seek to tender that now.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P973, Your Honours.
6 MS. PIDWELL:
7 Q. I'd now like to ask you about the location of the -- the mass
8 grave at Laniste 1. Could you please describe for the Tribunal where
9 that is in relation to the town of Kljuc
10 A. The location of Laniste 1 mass grave is also near the main road
11 between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, from the Velagici intersection some
12 3 to 4
13 opposite from Laniste 2. There was a worksite there in the forest. They
14 started building the barracks, and some 1 to 2 kilometres on the macadam
15 road from that worksite there was a natural cave which I'd known from
16 before the war, and it was used as a dump for the worksite. They would
17 throw their debris into the cave. However, after the war ended, the
18 first information we received was that that cave or pit was the execution
19 site. It was flattened to the ground and levelled, even though it is
20 some 25 metres deep and the diameter is 2 and a half metres or more.
21 After very hard work, after taking the soil out by hand, they
22 found about 80 bodies of Kljuc municipality citizens who were killed or,
23 rather, residents of Sanica local commune, Biljani settlement. The
24 exhumation was conduct by the expert team headed by Mr. Masovic and other
25 members. I don't want to go into further details.
1 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, the 65 ter numbers 2440 and 2443 are
2 court records and reports on the mass grave at Laniste which I'd seek to
3 tender at this juncture.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 was that they would be marked for identification, because you sought to
6 tender as an exhibit the previous exhumation report, and now you're
7 making the like application with respect to the present one, but isn't
8 that the -- isn't that premature?
9 MS. PIDWELL: I'm sorry. It is, Your Honour. That was -- that
10 was the understanding. I wonder, given the lateness of the hour, whether
11 the documents that we discussed previously which relate to the
12 exhumations can all be MFI
13 at -- there.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 dealing with it.
16 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you. Perhaps if I just read the 65 ter
17 numbers out to be MFI
18 and 2452.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: But 2518 you just actually had admitted as P973,
20 didn't you? So that is now MFI
21 MS. PIDWELL: I think -- that was my mistake, Your Honours. I
22 was a little bit overanxious, and I think the agreement was at the
23 beginning that we would MFI
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yeah, go ahead.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 2440 will be P974
1 marked for identification; 65 ter number 2443 will be P975 marked for
2 identification; 65 ter number 2445 will be Exhibit P976 marked for
3 identification; 65 ter number 2446 will be P977 marked for
4 identification; and 65 ter number 2452 will be P978 marked for
6 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, that concludes the -- the evidence in
7 chief for the Prosecution.
8 Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. The Judges will now address you with the
9 requirements for you to come back tomorrow and answer any questions from
10 the Defence counsel.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 Your testimony, sir, is not yet completed.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
14 JUDGE HALL
15 and we are about to take the adjournment for the day. We will resume at
16 9.00 tomorrow morning, that is the time in The Hague, whatever the time
17 is in Sarajevo
18 the Defence, if they wish, would have the right to cross-examine you.
19 Having been sworn as a witness, I am to caution you that you cannot
20 discuss your testimony with anyone. So you are -- the matter is -- the
21 court would now adjourn until tomorrow morning.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.
23 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of
24 February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.