100205IT

Page 6221

1 everything in such detail as you would be able to do it in a written

2 report, correct, in a dispatch?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. Thank you very much. I have no further

5 questions for you. Have a good day.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzafic. Can you hear me?

9 A. Yes, I can.

10 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic, and I am on the Defence team of

11 Stojan Zupljanin. I will have a few questions for you that relate to

12 your prior testimony and the statement that you provided to the

13 investigator of this Tribunal.

14 Since we both speak the same language, and I tend to speed up

15 when I speak, please make a pause between my question and your answer,

16 although I see that you already observe that, because this will help our

17 interpreters to do a better job.

18 A. I'll do my best.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Dzafic, if I understood you correctly, in

20 1991 -- or, rather, from 1990 up until the -- all the changes that

21 happened after the multi-party elections, you were the commander of the

22 police station in Kljuc; correct?

23 A. Well, since 1977 up until 1991, I was appointed first as the

24 deputy commander and then commander, and then after the elections I had

25 to -- I was appointed chief of the public security station.

Page 6222

1 Q. And at one point in time after the elections, up until

2 Vinko Kondic was appointed, you actually were the acting chief of the

3 public security station in Kljuc; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in that capacity as acting chief, you had occasion to meet

6 with Zupljanin in Banja Luka when you attended these regular monthly

7 meetings in Banja Luka; correct?

8 A. As far as I remember, even before I was appointed as acting

9 chief, while I was still the commander, I met and attended these

10 regular -- I met with Mr. Zupljanin and attended these regular meetings

11 in Banja Luka; whereas during my capacity as acting chief, I believe

12 there were just one or two such occasions, one or two such meetings.

13 Q. And once Vinko Kondic was appointed chief, you no longer attended

14 those meetings in Banja Luka; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please now describe the chain of command, as it were,

17 the police chain of command, as a commander, "komandir" in B/C/S. In

18 addition to your duties and responsibilities toward the chief, you also

19 had certain duties in the police structure as well, correct?

20 A. Yes. In the territory of the municipality there were various

21 public security stations. The next level was the security services

22 centre, and the third level, the top level, was the Ministry of the

23 Interior in Sarajevo.

24 Q. So in that -- within that structure at the public security

25 station you had occasion to communicate with Stevan Markovic at the CSB

Page 6223

1 in Banja Luka, who was in charge of those duties; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then the next one up the chain was the chief of the sector of

4 the public security stations, Jahic Bajazit, who was at the Banja Luka

5 CSB; correct?

6 A. I can't recall, but if that's what it says in the document, yes.

7 Q. And along -- or up that police chain of command, the public

8 security chain of command, you also had occasion to go to Sarajevo, and

9 the person who would be your superior there was Cedo Kljajic; correct?

10 A. I can't really recall, but I know that before the multi-party

11 elections we had -- or I had, as the commander, we were inspected or

12 inspections were conduct by some inspectors from Sarajevo. They would

13 review our work and review my work as a commander, a sort of supervisor.

14 Q. But as a matter of principle, in addition to this chain of

15 command you were also responsible or you also answered to the chief of

16 the public security station, Vinko Kondic; correct?

17 A. Well, yes. He was my immediate superior at the public security

18 station.

19 Q. And if you were issued or sent a communication from Markovic that

20 differed from the order or assignment issued by Vinko Kondic, you would

21 actually have to abide by Vinko Kondic's order or obey his order;

22 correct?

23 A. Well, that would depend on the substance.

24 Q. Well, for instance, if you were issued an order to carry out a

25 check somewhere or an inspection and you were issued this order by

Page 6224

1 Vinko Markovic -- by Markovic and Vinko Kondic were to tell you not to --

2 that you didn't have to do that, you wouldn't do it; right?

3 A. Well, they wouldn't really issue contradictory commands.

4 However, toward of end of 1991 and in early 1992, there were some

5 contradictory orders.

6 Q. And then what would your duty be? What was it that you would

7 have to carry out, whose orders?

8 A. Well, I would have to discuss this with Chief Kondic, and then we

9 would agree on what it was that we would have to carry out.

10 Q. And his would be the final decision; correct?

11 A. Well, more or less, yes.

12 Q. Mr. Dzafic, in your statement you described the appointment of

13 Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the security services centre. That's on

14 page 4 of your statement. You have it before you. That's under tab 1 in

15 the binder, and the 65 ter number is 9016. That's in the OTP binder,

16 whereas in the e-court -- Witness, would you please take a look at

17 page 4. The ERN number is 007113. That's page 3 in the English.

18 007113. So you've found that, I suppose.

19 There it says before the -- prior to the multi-party elections,

20 Stojan Zupljanin was the chief of the crime police of the municipal SUP

21 for Banja Luka, and then as chief of the municipal SUP in Banja Luka. He

22 was then appointed the chief of the CSB for Banja Luka region after three

23 other candidates turned down the appointment offers.

24 Just a brief clarification here. Was it standard practice, both

25 in the case of your appointment and in this case, that a number of

Page 6225

1 candidates be proposed for a certain post within the police force?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that was the case with you as well; is that correct? There

4 were several candidates who were proposed for your post?

5 A. Well, as far as I can remember, there were two other candidates

6 for my post, in addition to myself.

7 Q. And now if I were to tell you that in addition to Zupljanin, for

8 this post there were a number of candidates, is that how I am to read

9 this statement of yours? Perhaps I'm mistaken.

10 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't get you.

11 Q. Well, when Stojan Zupljanin was appointed as chief of the CSB,

12 there were a number of other appointee -- a number of other candidates

13 for that post. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, but I learned from one candidate personally that he declined

15 the offer. He was formally placed on the list as a candidate, but he was

16 not prepared to actually take the post. If you'd like me to, I can give

17 you his name.

18 Q. We can go into private session if you wish.

19 A. He was chief of the criminal investigation police for Banja Luka

20 region.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the name of the

22 person.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, is this terribly relevant or

24 important?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I just wanted to

Page 6226

1 clarify something from the statement, because reading the statement, it

2 would appear that everyone else turned down the offer and that that's why

3 Stojan Zupljanin was appointed. That's all I wanted to clarify, and I'm

4 moving to more important topics. This was just a minor one.

5 Q. Mr. Dzafic, in your statement you described this procedure on

6 signing the solemn declaration by which the policemen would accept or

7 decline loyalty to the authorities. You said that mostly all Muslims

8 rejected to sign this declaration except for one Croat. Do you remember

9 mentioning that?

10 A. I do. In a meeting, there were active policemen present from

11 Kljuc who were non-Serbs, and mostly all of them refused to sign loyalty

12 to Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Except for Zdeno Modric. You mentioned him; right?

14 A. Yes, Zdeno Modric whose parents were of two different

15 ethnicities.

16 Q. And Alija Salihovic; right?

17 A. I don't remember that name. I don't think there is a policeman

18 called Alija Salihovic.

19 Q. He used to play handball.

20 A. Alija Salihovic was a reserve policeman, not an active one.

21 Q. And he accepted to remain in the police of Republika Srpska;

22 right?

23 A. I don't know. I hear it for the first time now. I know

24 Mr. Alija Salihovic personally. He teaches physical education.

25 Q. Mr. Dzafic, at one point in time after your arrest you were taken

Page 6227

1 to the school in Sitnica. Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes, certainly.

3 Q. On that occasion an officer told you as you arrived that you

4 would be transferred to Manjaca; correct?

5 A. Yes. On the same day, just prior to our departure for Manjaca.

6 Q. And he said to you that you would be escorted by military police;

7 right?

8 A. I don't remember. He said that we would be escorted and that

9 nobody should dare to escape or do anything else, otherwise they would

10 use weapons, since we went from Sitnica to Manjaca on foot.

11 Q. I will remind you of that now.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

13 addendum to the statement, 65 ter 10247. This is from the OTP binder.

14 Q. Mr. Dzafic, while we're waiting, it's the addendum where you

15 corrected certain things and you described precisely this event. So I

16 wanted to refresh your memory concerning it.

17 A. No problem at all.

18 MS. PIDWELL: It's tab 3 of this binder.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I said tab 3. It wasn't recorded

20 in the transcript.

21 Q. Mr. Dzafic, please look at paragraph 7 of this statement, where

22 you say:

23 "He told me we would be escorted by the military police and that

24 I and other Muslim policemen, and there were approximately five of us,

25 should place ourselves along the entire convoy."

Page 6228

1 Do you remember that?

2 A. Yes. I remember the words of that person, security person, who

3 told me that, but that's not how it was. He told this to me in the

4 office in the gym at Sitnica. He said to me that this -- this morning as

5 we were about to go on foot from Sitnica to Manjaca.

6 Q. And then at some point in time you set out in a column to

7 Manjaca; right?

8 A. Sometime in the morning, at around 10.00, we were lined up in

9 front of the gym, and we were in a long column, five of us in a row. We

10 had our hands behind our heads. We had to face the ground, and we

11 started out on foot towards Manjaca. On both sides of our column were

12 members of reserve police forces of the reserve police branch office in

13 Sitnica.

14 Q. And in front of you --

15 A. Behind us there was a vehicle. I was quite beaten up. I was in

16 terrible pain, and I was somewhere in the beginning of the column. There

17 was a vehicle travelling behind us. It could have been a minibus or a

18 van. I can't remember now. At any rate, the vehicle was for the persons

19 who couldn't walk. Those people would be put in that vehicle and

20 transported together with us to Manjaca.

21 Q. And this military officer who told you that --

22 A. Well, that military officer was in his vehicle, and he travelled

23 in front of us, quite ahead, quite a lot ahead of us in order to secure

24 unhindered passage for us, because there were local residents in various

25 settlements. For example, in Kadina Voda where we rested and where we

Page 6229

1 were given some water. Local residents gathered there, and they wanted

2 to shoot at us, and this military officer dispersed those crowds. That's

3 why he travelled in front of us.

4 Q. And he was travelling in a passenger vehicle, in his passenger

5 vehicle.

6 A. I don't remember that. I know that that military officer wore a

7 military uniform, a camouflage multicoloured uniform, and he introduced

8 himself to us as a security person. He had a rank.

9 Q. Please go ahead. I interrupted you.

10 A. As far as I remember, he was a captain or perhaps a lieutenant.

11 He had two or three stars. I'm not sure.

12 Q. And he escorted you to Manjaca, to the location where you were

13 handed over.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And along the road you stopped twice, if I understood you well,

16 to have some water.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And there were just natural sources with jerry cans next to them

19 to enable you to drink water; right?

20 A. Those were natural sources, and the locals would bring their

21 buckets and jerry cans, the ones that they used in their households.

22 Q. Sitnica, from which you started out, it is outside of Kljuc on

23 the very edge of Manjaca; right?

24 A. Sitnica is a local commune within Kljuc municipality. The last

25 one bordering with Banja Luka and Manjaca.

Page 6230

1 Q. And you think that it's 10 to 15 kilometres away, right, this

2 place where you set out from to Manjaca?

3 A. Well, let me explain it to you. From Sitnica, from the gym in

4 Sitnica to Manjaca there is some 10 or so kilometres. That road was very

5 long for us given our exhaustion and general condition that we were in.

6 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I looked at your CV, and it appears that you

7 graduated from the school for reserve officers in Zadar; right?

8 A. Yes. I graduated from the school for reserve officers in Zadar

9 as an artillery man.

10 Q. During your training there, were you instructed in how to escort

11 prisoners of war? Were you given any instruction in provisions on

12 escorting prisoners of war, namely, that they could be transported on

13 foot, in trucks, by train, and so on?

14 A. I don't remember that. The training that we had at the school

15 for reserve officers was eight months long. We were mostly taught

16 military subjects. We had to learn a lot. So that's what I can tell

17 you.

18 Q. It wasn't recorded in the transcript. You said, "More or less I

19 was familiar with that"; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. Dzafic, as an officer, do you know that when combat

22 operations are carried out -- and naturally you as policemen must have

23 participated in some military exercises in the old Yugoslavia; right?

24 And then when these military operations are conducted and police forces

25 participate in it, then they are resubordinated to the military in that

Page 6231

1 operation; right?

2 A. I had no military exercises with combat operations. However, I

3 am familiar, from the command and control system, with that principle,

4 that if a number of units are participating, then some units are

5 subordinated to some other units within this command and control system.

6 They are subordinated to the unit in charge of that particular exercise.

7 Q. Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor asked you and showed you a document,

8 and I would like you to look at it now. This is 23 in the OTP binder.

9 Tab 23. 791 is the number on the 65 ter list.

10 You have the document before you; right?

11 A. Yes. I saw it yesterday for the first time.

12 Q. In the first paragraph it says that the weapons relocated because

13 there is a serious threat that the Green Berets could attack the depot

14 where the weapons are held, and as far as you know, this is not true.

15 There was no looming danger, no threat; right?

16 A. I said yesterday Vrhpolje is in Sanski Most municipality. As for

17 Velagici, I had no such information that there was a risk, that there was

18 a danger that members of the Green Berets would attack the police

19 station. I had no such information as long as I was commander.

20 Q. So according to you, the information in this document is not

21 correct; right?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And then in Velagici, where it says that the greatest number of

24 risk is posed by Green Berets from Velagici, that is not true either;

25 right?

Page 6232

1 A. Well, there were a lot of guards set up in many locations. The

2 residents of Velagici were predominantly Muslim. It is just a local

3 commune, and this information here that there were 12.500 inhabitants is

4 really exaggerated.

5 Q. So this entire report is not reliable; right?

6 A. In my view, this intelligence report is not reliable.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.

8 Yesterday, in reply to questions put to you by the Prosecutor,

9 you spoke of a unit of Red Berets who had come to Kljuc in order to

10 restore law and order -- or, rather, to deal mostly with the military

11 conscripts who would cause disorder when coming back from the front. I

12 want to clarify that those were military persons. These members of the

13 Red Berets, they were from the 5th Military Corps; right?

14 A. I don't know who they were and to which army they belonged, but

15 we in Kljuc considered them to be Green Berets, about a dozen of them,

16 not more than that. And at that time in Kljuc there were numerous

17 disruptions of law and order by soldiers who would come back home from

18 the front and cause disorder in various pubs and cafes and so on. So

19 these members would assist regular police officers in -- in conducting

20 regular police activities.

21 Q. Mr. Dzafic, a correction for the transcript. I think it was a

22 slip of the tongue. You said Green Berets, whereas you must have meant

23 Red Berets.

24 A. Yes. I meant Red Berets.

25 Q. Mr. Dzafic, in 1995, after the forces of the Muslim/Croat

Page 6233

1 federation entered Kljuc, at one point in time you returned to Kljuc and

2 you were appointed as the chief of public -- of the public security

3 station in Kljuc; correct?

4 A. Yes. That was on the 1st of February, 1996.

5 Q. On this occasion, if I understood your testimony correctly, in

6 the safe box in Kljuc you found a certain number of documents that

7 related to -- from 1992 to 1995, documents of the public security station

8 and the Crisis Staff for those years; correct?

9 A. Those were documents that we found in a safe box which we had to

10 open by force because we didn't have a key. We had to use a special

11 device. And in the safe box we found those documents.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, I apologise for interrupting you,

13 but there is some confusion, at least in the transcript, regarding the

14 answer that the witness gave to your question just a while ago about the

15 identity of this unit of Red Berets that came to help out, to restore law

16 and order in conclusive. You suggested to the witness that they were

17 part of the 5th Military Corps, and the answer that was given by the

18 witness never really clarified whether this unit was under the control of

19 the JNA or under the control of the MUP. Could you please clarify this

20 issue, because I think that was the purpose of your question.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Dzafic, this platoon -- or, rather, this squad that dealt

23 with these conscripts who created disturbances, do you know under whose

24 role they were? Were they under military control, under the Territorial

25 Defence or was it some other force?

Page 6234

1 A. Well, they provide -- they were regularly on duty on the premises

2 of the TO, so I infer from that that they were under the control of the

3 TO or that they came upon a summons by the commander of the TO, and they

4 spent most of their time there, but from time to time they would also

5 take part in active policing in the town itself.

6 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I apologise, but let us go back to our earlier topic.

7 Now, you know that once the Muslim/Croat federation forces

8 entered Kljuc some documents were filed, that the AID actually seized

9 these documents and then forwarded them to this Tribunal; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you have occasion to review these documents during your

12 interview with the Prosecution? Were you shown some of these documents?

13 A. Well, I was shown some of those documents. There were reports

14 there, and I have to state this, that the 5th Corps units entered Kljuc.

15 They were the first units who entered Kljuc, and they also seized some

16 documents.

17 Q. Those documents were later forwarded to the Prosecutor, correct,

18 as far as you know?

19 A. Well, I imagine.

20 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I would now like to show you one of those documents,

21 and I will need your assistance with it. That is the document under

22 tab 10 in the OTP binder, and it is marked as 2D1000. That's in the

23 Defence binder, not the Prosecutor's binder. I apologise.

24 Mr. Dzafic, would you take a look at this first page. It says

25 there the document's in writing that we found in Kljuc SJB, and the same

Page 6235

1 document was found during the mop-up operation in Kljuc. It speaks of

2 disarming of the guards in villages, their arrest and transfer to

3 Manjaca, a concentration camp.

4 This is a note that was, I assume, drafted not by someone from

5 Republika Srpska but, rather, from the people who actually found these

6 documents. Would you agree with me? I mean, we can infer that from the

7 manner in which this document was drafted.

8 A. Well, this is the first time that I see this. I can't really

9 comment on it. I don't know.

10 Q. Well, here's my question, then. You said in your statement that

11 an acquaintance told you that when the Serbian Crisis Staff was formed,

12 was established, there was talk about a Muslim Crisis Staff being formed

13 as well and that there would be a meeting to that effect. However, that

14 meeting was never held because the person who was supposed to come to

15 this meeting never showed up. Do you recall talking about this?

16 A. Yes, I do. This conversation was conducted in Sanica

17 municipal -- in Sanica -- in Sanica area. One of my ex-teachers told me

18 that a Serbian Crisis Staff had been established in Sanica and that there

19 should be a Muslim Crisis Staff also established there in Sanica, whose

20 president would be the village elder. However, that person never showed

21 up, nor was that Crisis Staff ever established.

22 Q. Well, now I have another question. Would you please turn to the

23 next page of this document. We see some names there. The ERN number is

24 0034-9549.

25 A. All right.

Page 6236

1 Q. Here we see some names. Under number 1 we see the name of

2 Muhamed Filipovic. Did you know this person?

3 A. As far as I can see, it's Omer Filipovic under number 1.

4 Q. No, no. Just look up at the very beginning of the list.

5 A. Very well. I see it now.

6 Q. So there we see the name of Muhamed Filipovic. Did you know this

7 man?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He was a member of the SDA; correct? If you know.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The next person is Omer Filipovic; correct?

12 A. Yes. That was his brother.

13 Q. You knew him too?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You also knew Asim Egrlic; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. As well as Iksan Zukanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So basically all these individuals under numbers 1 through 6 and

20 then in the next paragraph, 1 to 4, you knew all these people; correct?

21 A. I didn't know from the first list the person under number 5; and

22 on the second list, I didn't know the individual under number 3.

23 Q. That's Nevzad Djeric; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you now please turn a page, go to the next page, and there

Page 6237

1 it says, "The Velagici Company." Let me ask you about these individuals.

2 This first person, is that Ekrem Cekic or Cehic?

3 A. Yes, this is Ekrem Cehic. I don't know this person. I had no

4 information whatsoever about the military units that we see here on the

5 list.

6 Q. Yes, but this person Salihovic Salih was detained at Manjaca

7 together with you, correct?

8 A. Well, there was a Salihovic, but I don't know whether his first

9 name was Salih or whether this could have been a different person. I'm

10 not sure.

11 Q. The Mustafic person, Ismet Mustafic from Krasulje, was he at

12 Manjaca with you?

13 A. You mean Muratovic?

14 Q. Well, Muratovic or Muratagic. I can't really tell. It's not

15 clear. The handwriting is unclear.

16 A. I don't remember this person from Manjaca, but you can check the

17 list of prisoners.

18 Q. Were people from Prhovo detained with you at Manjaca?

19 A. Yes. I saw the people from Prhovo for the first time while we

20 were detained at the gym in Sitnica. They were brought in. They had

21 been badly beaten, and they were put in the same gym where I was

22 detained.

23 Q. Please look at page 3 of this document where it says that some

24 people -- I don't know if this is Cazo Medanovic. It says Prhovo.

25 That's under number 6. The name of Cazim Medanovic appears, and then

Page 6238

1 next to it says "prison."

2 A. Yes. It says "Cazim Medanovic, prison."

3 Q. Do you recall seeing him?

4 A. Do you mean at Manjaca?

5 Q. Or in the prison?

6 A. Do you mean at Manjaca?

7 Q. Yes, yes.

8 A. Yes, I did see him, of course.

9 Q. It says here that he was imprisoned, because next to his name we

10 see the word "prison."

11 A. May I just add something here? You see, because of the number of

12 people who were held in these gyms up until the time when we were

13 transferred to Manjaca, and this was a long time ago so I can't really

14 recall every name and last name, there were people called Medanovic, but

15 whether it was Cazim or someone else, I can't really tell with certainty.

16 Q. Would you now please move to the last page of this document and

17 take a look at this last paragraph that reads:

18 "The following police officers were detained: Atif Dzafic,

19 commander." That is a reference to you; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then it says Mehmedalija Husic; correct? If my reading of this

22 is correct.

23 A. Yes. Mehmedalija Husic, he was a police officer; Resid Omerovic,

24 police officer; Atif Dedic, police officer; Suad Medic, police officer;

25 and Hamdija Kumalic, police officer.

Page 6239

1 Q. And they were detained together with you; correct?

2 A. Well, I don't what this here actually refers to. If this is a

3 reference to Manjaca, then yes, my answer is yes.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could I please -- I

5 move to tender this document.

6 MS. PIDWELL: This is an objection on this. It's a handwritten

7 document which the witness says he hasn't seen before. He doesn't know

8 who wrote it, and all he can do is verify that people on that list were

9 with him in Manjaca. But what I anticipate the Defence want the

10 inference to be taken is -- from Your Honours is that the -- their

11 position such as the -- the descriptions of their vocations next to their

12 names is -- is what is going to be relied upon, and this witness hasn't

13 made any comment about that, and if that is going to be the intention,

14 I'd ask that he be given the opportunity to -- to comment.

15 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would appeal to the

17 Trial Chamber to apply the same standard that was applied yesterday when

18 documents were tendered by the Prosecution. I showed the names of these

19 individuals to the witness. I showed him the places where they had come

20 from, and I asked him whether they were there with him, by which I wanted

21 to demonstrate -- or let me just say this is a document that we actually

22 received from the Prosecution. So would you please apply the same

23 standard that was applied yesterday when the Prosecution documents were

24 being tendered.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6240

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, before we rule on this issue could

2 you enlighten us as to the provenance of the document? Who -- who

3 drafted this document? When and --

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this document was

5 drafted by the police who conducted an investigation. It was found when

6 the Muslim/Croat federation forces entered Kljuc, and we received this

7 document from the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do we have any idea as to who actually wrote

9 this?

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This was written by the

11 investigator who conducted the investigation into the arming. In other

12 words, the person who investigated the individuals who were detained.

13 JUDGE HARHOFF: So the investigator wrote this down, but did --

14 he did so after an interview with someone or -- where does the

15 information come from?

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at page 2

17 of this document, it was drafted on the 10th of June, 1992, after the

18 interviews conducted with most of these individuals. The document comes

19 from the public security station in Kljuc where it was seized. It was

20 seized by the police of the Bosnia-Herzegovina federation when they

21 entered Kljuc in 1995.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: So if I'm -- just make sure that I understand

23 this correctly. There was in June 1992 an investigation made as to,

24 among other things, the persons who were sent off to Manjaca, and during

25 this investigation one of the investigators took down these notes, and

Page 6241

1 these notes were then later found at the SJB. Thank you.

2 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, just if I may add. The document has

5 the date of the 10th of June on it, and my learned friend has said that

6 interviews were conducted with the individuals named in this document.

7 Now, the previous witness for the Prosecution and this witness for the

8 Prosecution were both named in this document. There's no evidence before

9 Your Honours that interviews were conduct by an investigator at this

10 time, and so I'm just wondering where my learned friend has that

11 information from and whether evidence is going to be tendered to support

12 his submission.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We will come to that. My next

14 document would be one of the statements taken by investigators,

15 Your Honours. So could we show to the witness tab -- I apologise.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, taking Ms. Pidwell's question, we would

18 agree to the document being exhibited at this point with the

19 understanding that it is for the limited purpose of it being a document

20 which the witness has testified to, that he recognises some of the names

21 on it, but any inferences that you would wish the Chamber to draw further

22 than that, there would need to be more evidence. So we would have it

23 marked and admitted at this stage subject to that limitation, with that

24 understanding.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit will be given number 2D44.

Page 6242

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 2D02-100 -- I

2 apologise. 2D06-0510, and that's tab 53 in the Defence binder, and it is

3 in reference to the objection raised just now by the Prosecution.

4 Q. Let us clarify that. Mr. Dzafic, before this document is shown

5 to you, when you worked at the police, the standard procedure was that

6 when somebody was brought into the police station, the police would

7 interview that person and draft a statement; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in that initial procedure that person would give that

10 statement either in the status of a citizen or in the status of a

11 suspect; right? Depending on the assessment of the person interviewing

12 him or her; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then the person giving the statement would sign the statement

15 and initial each page of the statement; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, would you please look at the statement before you. Please

18 tell me, did you know Omer Filipovic?

19 A. Yes, certainly.

20 Q. The form of the statement is a typical one, isn't it? This is

21 what statements normally look like taken in the regular standard

22 procedure by the police?

23 A. Yes, at first glance it appears to be.

24 Q. Please look at all the pages and the last page of this document.

25 You see that it is signed. Please look carefully at all of the pages and

Page 6243

1 you will see that there is an identical signature on each page. Correct?

2 A. As far as I can see, yes.

3 Q. On the last page -- or, rather, the penultimate page -- first of,

4 all, do you know that Omer Filipovic was appointed commander of

5 Territorial Defence?

6 A. I did have that information that he was appointed commander, yes.

7 Q. And then this last paragraph, read it carefully, please --

8 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honours, is it convenient time for the break?

9 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I was about to invite you when you reach a

10 suitable point and we would take the break.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, would you please read this paragraph and then this portion

13 where you are mentioned, the last sentence.

14 "I believed that Atif Dzafic, whom I didn't contact and who

15 doesn't know about this, should be in the internal affairs due to his

16 expertise."

17 So nobody contacted you, telling you that you needed to be

18 appointed to this position within the Ministry of the Interior? You

19 didn't know about this?

20 A. I never knew about that. I'm really surprised to read this.

21 Q. So this sentence is correct. He never told you that you had been

22 planned for that position; right?

23 A. Yes, right.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this

25 document into evidence.

Page 6244

1 MS. PIDWELL: There is an objection on that one.

2 MS. KORNER: And it has to do with the objection by the

3 Prosecution.

4 MS. PIDWELL: This is a statement made by a man that the witness

5 does know or did know, but the witness is no longer alive and we have no

6 evidence as to the circumstances of surrounding when or where or how this

7 statement was taken, and there's no evidence to support any of the

8 surrounding circumstances. If it's tendered simply as an example of a

9 statement taken with the limitation that -- the limitation of the portion

10 that Mr. Krgovic has put to this witness about himself, then I would

11 submit it be tendered simply with that caveat attached to it.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may reply

13 briefly. If you look at the last page, it will describe the

14 circumstances under which the statement is taken.

15 "I have no complaints against the authorised officials who took

16 this statement from me because they applied correct procedure."

17 We received this document from the Prosecution and in order to

18 avoid making a motion under 92 quater, I wish to tender the statement

19 into evidence, because I think that if you apply the same standard that

20 you applied yesterday, when the Prosecution tendered a huge number of

21 documents through this witness, then I think you should do the same

22 today. And the witness confirmed that this statement was signed and that

23 it was taken in accordance with the procedure in force at the time. And

24 he also confirmed the accuracy of the information in this statement. So

25 I think that this is sufficient grounds for admitting it.

Page 6245

1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, accepting the very last statement you

2 made about confirming the accuracy of the information, wouldn't it be --

3 this would probably be better addressed to Ms. Pidwell. Wouldn't the

4 simpler course to be at this point to have it admitted as a fact with the

5 truth to be developed as -- as we go along. Going back to first

6 principles and distinguishing the fact of the statement from the truth of

7 the statement. Wouldn't that be the simpler course?

8 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, if it's admitted on the basis that a

9 statement was taken from this witness, on this date, in this manner, then

10 absolutely I agree with Your Honours on that basis. The truth of the

11 contents is another matter, and if my learned friend is asking for the

12 Trial Chamber to adopt the accuracy of the information in the report, my

13 submission would be you can only adopt the accuracy of the information if

14 it is put to this witness as was that one small portion that -- that

15 has -- was put to him in prior -- prior, and that was the caveat that I

16 referred to previously.

17 JUDGE HALL: Your response, Mr. Krgovic?

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Trial Chamber did

19 not have such a caveat when admitting Prosecution documents yesterday. I

20 can look into more facts in the statement with this witness so as to have

21 him confirm that the events described here are accurate. I just wanted

22 to apply the abbreviated procedure. And naturally with other witnesses

23 we will be discussing contents of this statement. We will be showing it

24 to other witnesses as well. I simply believe this to be the first step

25 in establishing the events which -- and facts which took place in Kljuc

Page 6246

1 municipality.

2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, it isn't particularly helpful for you

3 to remind the Chamber that it should apply the same standards as it did

4 previous, because the Chamber has to make a decision in respect of each

5 application, and as I recall, the Prosecution's yesterday went in in

6 terms of a package and I don't recall there being any objection by the

7 Defence in terms of specific items in that package. So that particular

8 line isn't helpful. But the -- holding you to what you have represented

9 that you would be able to do, it seems to me that the -- that the

10 document would be admissible with that caveat.

11 So it's admitted and marked, and we are pastime for the break.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number 2D45.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just owe an

17 explanation. My client has cap on his head because he has a cold and

18 there is an air-conditioning opening right above his head, so he's

19 wearing a cap to protect himself, and this is the reason for his athletic

20 appearance today. We asked for him to be given cold medication.

21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you, Mr. Krgovic. That has been

22 explained to us, and you can -- I would say to you in the presence of

23 your client, who I assume understand -- can hear me directly, that if he

24 feels unwell at any time he can indicate it to us.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, and another

Page 6247

1 explanation. Perhaps I used a wrong term. It was not my intention to

2 admonish the Trial Chamber. I used a formulation that wasn't precise

3 enough, so I apologise to you for doing that. It was just before the

4 break when we were discussing the issue of admitting this document into

5 evidence. I awkwardly expressed myself, and I apologise.

6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Krgovic.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you explained to the Prosecution and also in your

9 statement the events that preceded your arrest, so I would like to go

10 with you briefly over those events.

11 Can you please tell me -- or, rather, would you agree with me

12 that the first conflict that was more serious took place in Kljuc when

13 Deputy Commander Stojakovic was killed in Krasulje in May of 1992; right?

14 A. On the day when the deputy commander, Mr. Stojakovic, lost his

15 life in Krasulje, I was in Sanica. It wasn't until several days later

16 that I learned of the incident.

17 Q. That's how I understood your testimony. However, you heard that

18 there was shooting at the entry point into Krasulje, that an armed Muslim

19 group opened fire on the passing vehicles as a result of which Stojakovic

20 was killed and several policemen were wounded. Did you hear of this

21 subsequently?

22 A. I heard subsequently several versions of that incident. I did

23 not investigate it myself, nor did I engage in the investigation process,

24 but there are several versions, one of which is the one you just told us.

25 Q. And when the shooting was over, the people who were wounded and

Page 6248

1 who were in the vicinity were picked up by the Kljuc police. Do you know

2 anything about it? And that Omer Filipovic participated --

3 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, I would object to him continuing with

4 this line of questioning as the witness has said that he heard various

5 versions of this event. At this time, he wasn't -- he had been dismissed

6 from the Kljuc police command and was in Sanica, so any information that

7 he has is, by his own admission, hearsay. And there are various versions

8 out there, none of which he knows which one is the truth.

9 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, how does having regard --

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since hearsay is

11 admitted here, the witness referred to hearsay information numerous times

12 in examination-in-chief. So my line of questioning when asking about

13 Omer Filipovic was aimed in that direction. Who told him, when -- when

14 they told him that. Fifty per cent of the statement that was admitted is

15 based on hearsay. I need to verify with the witness what he heard, from

16 whom, and what was his role in it.

17 JUDGE HALL: Except that the narrow question of hearsay apart,

18 the gravamen of Ms. Pidwell's objection is that what the witness has said

19 so far is that he wasn't present. There were a variety of versions, and

20 he is in no position to testify to the accuracy or truth of one as

21 opposed to the other. That is what I understand the objection to be.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I will get to that. I will clarify

23 that, Your Honours.

24 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I apologise for this minor confusion. When you were

25 at Manjaca, you were there with Omer Filipovic, and you used to see him

Page 6249

1 there; right?

2 A. I wasn't with Omer Filipovic. Omer Filipovic was in the last --

3 in the third stable, and I was in the second stable at Manjaca.

4 Q. Did you have occasion to see him?

5 A. Occasionally when we went to have our meals, until he was placed

6 in a solitary confinement cell, the one that we described that way.

7 Q. Did you discuss these events?

8 A. No. As far as I remember, no.

9 Q. And the event when the convoy in Busija was attacked, you learned

10 of it one or two hours later from Dragan Tomic, a squad commander.

11 A. Since I had spent several days in Sanica with my family, I was

12 about to return to Kljuc, and on that very day I was informed -- or,

13 rather, since I had information that the road between Velagici and Sanica

14 was blocked, I met up with the commander of the police squad in Sanica,

15 and he told me about the convoy and that the road was blocked and that

16 there was no movement until further notice.

17 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you will agree with me that all the way up until the

18 26th or 27th of May, when these incidents took place and when policeman

19 Stojakovic was killed and when the military convoy in Busija was

20 attacked, there were no conflicts in the territory of Kljuc municipality?

21 A. There were some individual killings previously. There was a

22 killing in Sanica and one in the centre of Kljuc. However, these two

23 incidents were more pronounced than the previous events.

24 Q. This incident that you spoke about in the centre of Kljuc, that

25 was sometime in April or early 1992; right?

Page 6250

1 A. I don't remember, but I know that in the centre of Kljuc, at an

2 intersection, Dervisevic was killed, a citizen.

3 Q. Dervisevic, Senad; right?

4 A. Yes, yes. He was killed by a military conscript of Serb

5 ethnicity.

6 Q. He was killed by a soldier called Boro Grujicic, from Sitnica;

7 right?

8 A. Yes, precisely so. Boro Grujicic from Sitnica. And previously

9 there was a killing in Sanica. Admir Selmanovic, yes.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

11 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you must have heard this. The two of us understand

12 each other, and I will do my best not to interrupt you when you're

13 speaking.

14 So this event, when Senad Dervisevic was killed, that killing was

15 resolved, and it was investigated by an inspector called Muharem Musovic

16 [as interpreted], called Muki; right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he was arrested, but since he was a military person he was

19 taken over by the military police from Banja Luka who took them with him;

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you said it was in late 1991, early 1992. Roughly in that

23 period of time; right?

24 A. Precisely so.

25 Q. And for the other crime you mentioned in Sanica, the same

Page 6251

1 inspector, Muharem Muheljic investigated this other crime as well, but

2 the perpetrator was never found; right?

3 A. An investigation was conducted. A number of persons were

4 suspected of this crime, but ultimately the perpetrator was never

5 identified.

6 Q. And following that, following these tensions and problems with

7 reservists in Kljuc municipality, until the ambushes there were no armed

8 incidents of greater significance as far as you know; right?

9 A. Yes. As far as I know, yes.

10 Q. And that actually signified the beginning of the conflict in

11 Kljuc or the beginning of combat operations, if we can call them that?

12 A. Yes. The 27th of May, following which the well-known events took

13 place.

14 Q. Yes. We know about that.

15 Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor, when you spoke about exhumation, you

16 spoke about the event at the school in Velagici when a large number of

17 Muslims were killed. You know about that event, don't you?

18 A. Yes, I remember that event because on that very day, on the

19 1st of June, I took a detour road -- rather, I was brought via a detour

20 road with a number of other citizens to there, and we had passed by the

21 check-point in Velagici in the vicinity of which there was an elementary

22 school where they kept Muslims from the territory of Velagici.

23 Q. And you mentioned seeing a Serb soldier on that road. You

24 mentioned his name, and you said that he was in a military uniform;

25 right? I can't remember whom you mentioned.

Page 6252

1 A. I was on the first bus and there were a total of three. We were

2 escorted by active policemen and reservists. There were two policemen on

3 each bus. We couldn't see much because we had been ordered to keep our

4 hands behind our backs and to stare at the floor, and the curtains were

5 drawn on the windows of the bus. But as far as I could remember, at the

6 check-point in Velagici there was a mixed composition of active and

7 reserve police and military police.

8 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, you have a --

9 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if we could have a reference please. The

10 question was you mentioned his name, you saw a Serb soldier on the road

11 in military uniform. I can't remember whom you mentioned. I don't know

12 where -- don't recall that coming out of evidence in-chief and I'm just

13 wondering where the reference came from in his statement, please.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I remember

15 reading this in one of the documents. The witness did mention that, but

16 I can't find the reference right now. So I just asked him if he could

17 recall the name of that person without actually me refreshing his memory.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I mentioned a

19 person. He was a salesperson of Serb ethnicity. As we took the forest

20 road towards Velagici, I believe his name was Dragoja. Is that the

21 person you're referring to?

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes, exactly at the check-point at Velagici.

24 A. No, no, no. This was at the check-point before Velagici.

25 Q. I apologise. I think I misunderstood your statement. Now let's

Page 6253

1 go back to the incident in Velagici or around Velagici. You said that

2 you had heard about this innocent when you were in Velagici; correct? In

3 Velagici. That was on the 1st of June; correct?

4 A. Well, you see, I passed through that check-point sometime in the

5 afternoon, and -- but while I was still in the stable, a person from

6 Velagici came into our stable, a person who had been detained at the

7 school and who had actually managed to survive an execution.

8 Q. Sir, I would like now to show you 2D42. That's already an

9 exhibit. And that will be under tab 55 in the Defence binder.

10 Could you please read this. This is a report or a request to

11 conduct an investigation of an individual. And then if you turn the page

12 you will see -- look at the part which says: "Because of a ground of

13 suspicion that," et cetera, et cetera. So could you please read this

14 paragraph.

15 Does this deal with the incident that you were referring to?

16 A. Yes. This is a description of the incident that I learned of

17 later on when I was at Manjaca from this person, Mr. Draganovic. I can't

18 really recall his name.

19 Q. Could you please take a look at the individuals mentioned here.

20 Do you know or do you recognise any of these names? Most of these were

21 military persons.

22 A. Well, I recognise the person under number 3, Bosko Uncanin. He

23 was from Sanica, a neighbour. I also recognise Zoran Banjac under number

24 8. And as for the rest, I see that they were conscripts.

25 Q. These two were conscripts, as far as I can see here.

Page 6254

1 A. Yes, they were all conscripts.

2 MS. PIDWELL: I apologise for the interruption. I'm a little bit

3 at a loss. I can't find the document in the documents that were sent to

4 us, and the one that's on the screen appears to be the statement that was

5 previously tendered being -- it's just Mr. Filipovic's statement.

6 Perhaps Mr. --

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 2D42. I apologise. Maybe the

8 interpreters did not hear me well. That's 2D42. This was tendered and

9 admitted yesterday.

10 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I apologise. You can see that this deals with the

11 crime committed in Velagici, and that they were 12 individuals who were

12 interviewed as suspects and charged. There was a request submitted for

13 an investigation to be conducted of these persons who were suspected of

14 having committed this crime, and it was suspected that these conscript --

15 conscripts had actually committed that murder in Velagici.

16 A. Well, based on this request for an investigation, that's what it

17 would seem.

18 Q. Thank you, sir. Another question. Yesterday when you were --

19 during the examination-in-chief you mentioned the exhumation in Biljani.

20 I'm referring to an incident sometime in June 1992. Do you recall that?

21 A. On the 10th of June.

22 Q. I apologise. On the 10th of July. Now, you learned of this

23 subsequently at Manjaca or --

24 A. I learned of that at Manjaca, and after the war I was able to

25 ascertain this in person during the exhumation at Laniste 1 and 2.

Page 6255

1 Q. Sir, I would now like to show you a document that relates to that

2 indent. Could we see document 65 ter 814. And in your binder it's under

3 tab 48. This document bears the number -- ERN number 65 ter 814964.

4 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]. Mr. Krgovic, I

5 understand this document is not in the witness's binder so he will have

6 to see it on the screen.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you heard this. There was some sort of

9 misunderstanding, so that you will actually see this document on the

10 screen. I thought you would have it in hard copy, but apparently not. I

11 apologise.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll it up a bit so that

13 we can see the heading of this document.

14 Q. Mr. Dzafic, this is an order for further operations coming from

15 the VP to 207 command from Kljuc. Can you see the document, Mr. Dzafic?

16 A. Yes, I see number 1. "I hereby order --"

17 Q. Yes, where it says --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have the English

19 version in front of them and the counsel is reading too fast.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. "With parts of forces of the brigade carry out total blockade,

22 search and mopping up of the area in the sectors of Biljani -- Donji

23 Biljani, Domazeti, Botonjici, Jabukovac, Brkici." Would you agree with

24 me that these are the locations mentioned?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6256

1 Q. And you can see on top that the date there is the 9th of July,

2 1992.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in fact, this is an order for combat operations in this

5 sector where the killings at Donji Biljani had been committed; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would you now please move on to the next page. Let us just look

8 at the signature portion of the document. Can you make it out? Can you

9 see who the commander of this unit was?

10 A. Well, could you please just scroll the text back and -- the part

11 which shows which units were to take part in this operation.

12 Q. Yes, we will do it in a moment but just let's look at this. So

13 the commander of this unit -- the commander was Colonel Samardzija. Did

14 you know that man?

15 A. No. Brigade commander.

16 Q. Did you hear of him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you knew that he was the brigade commander at the time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if we take a look at the assignments per unit, we see that

21 there is a reconnaissance platoon, a police platoon.

22 A. Yes. This was the police squad from Sanica.

23 Q. Now, in this situation the commander of this military unit issues

24 an order, and in fact, he is the commanding officer for the operation

25 described here in this order.

Page 6257

1 A. Well, yes, generally speaking. In fact, this police squad was

2 actually resubordinated to the military forces.

3 Q. And all the events that occurred during this combat operation and

4 at the time when these units took part in carrying out combat

5 assignments, they were all, in fact, under the control of that unit's

6 commander; correct?

7 A. Well, generally speaking, yes, but the police commander had a

8 crucial role as well because his proposals and his suggestions would be

9 adopted and accepted by his superior commander.

10 Q. What I am talking about and what I am referring to is the combat

11 operations, so the decision on which units to use and so on, the units

12 that were resubordinated to that commander, and he was the one who would

13 decide on which of them were to be use and of course he was responsible

14 for their actions; correct?

15 MS. PIDWELL: I'm just wondering where this line of questioning

16 is going. This witness is not army at all, and he's been asked a series

17 of questions about the command, the orders that were given in response to

18 an army document and he's not involved in this incident and doesn't have

19 any army experience. I'm just wondering how far this line of questioning

20 is going to take us.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this man is an

22 officer -- an officer of the Yugoslav Army in reserve. He had a rank,

23 although he was still a police officer. And I think this is an excellent

24 opportunity to actually go through some of these documents with him, and

25 I don't know if the Prosecutor recalls, but one of the first questions

Page 6258

1 that I put to this witness was whether he had actually gone through

2 training for -- or graduated from a school for reserve officers. And

3 this is just a document that I wanted to show to this document [as

4 interpreted] and have his assistance in showing how this worked, and of

5 course the witness can confirm or disapprove of what I was trying to

6 say -- show.

7 JUDGE HALL: But, Mr. Krgovic, apart from his --

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you are a reserve police officer -- police -- reserve

10 military; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Apart from his elucidation of what the

13 documents say for themselves, how is the Chamber assisted other than

14 itself reading the -- seeing the documents?

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, I wanted to

16 provide a foundation for my question -- questions regarding this

17 document, and I wanted to inquire what his knowledge about these -- this

18 event or incident was.

19 Q. Mr. Dzafic, did you have an opportunity to talk to people -- or,

20 rather, when I asked you about this incident, you specified the date of

21 this incident. Did you have any knowledge of this incident in -- of this

22 operation in Donji Biljani and the entire operation and how it was

23 conducted?

24 A. Well, I did find out from the people who had actually survived

25 this operation on the 10th of July.

Page 6259

1 Q. In other words, during the mopping up operation these people were

2 captured, rounded up and brought in front of the school building where

3 they were shot; correct?

4 A. Yes. Generally speaking, yes. As for details regarding this

5 incident, I think the best accounts could be actually given by the people

6 who survived this crime, Semso and Dzafer. They have more information

7 than I would.

8 Q. But generally speaking, from what you learned from them and what

9 we can see from this document, this was actually a military operation;

10 correct?

11 A. Well, the order is a military order, but whether it was a

12 strictly military operation or not, I really can't tell. I didn't take

13 part in it.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will tender this

15 document into evidence if there are no objections on the part of the

16 Prosecution.

17 MS. PIDWELL: There's no objection.

18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D46.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I apologise for this problem with the documents, but

22 let me ask you this: When you gave a statement to the Prosecution, you

23 said that you found some documents from the Crisis Staff, that you found

24 them in this safe box when you came to Kljuc in 1996.

25 A. Yes. In early 1996, we found them in the safe box.

Page 6260

1 Q. And when you testified -- or, rather, when you gave your

2 statement, that happened in your house in Sanica, as far as I could

3 gather, when these events took place on the 25th, 26th, and 27th.

4 Correct me if I'm wrong.

5 A. From 23rd or 24th until the 1st of June I was there, yes.

6 Q. And you could only hear that there were combat operations in the

7 area of Pudin Han and where other operations took place. You could hear

8 the shooting; right? And that's the only evidence that you had. You

9 only heard of artillery shells and so on.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And later on you heard that there had been combat operations;

12 right?

13 A. Yes. I heard that later at Manjaca. I heard what happened

14 concerning these incidents that we've discussed.

15 Q. Now I will show you a document which was found. I don't know

16 whether it was you who found it or the group before you, but could we see

17 tab 3 in my binder, please. 2D02-0967, please.

18 This document is dated the 30th of May, 1992. It is a warning by

19 the Kljuc defence command and the Crisis Staff, and the extremists are --

20 were ordered to stop immediately with the shooting. They were given a

21 15-minute deadline, and it was stated that women, children, and the

22 elderly were to move out within that 15-minute deadline, and if not

23 complied with, then the artillery would start firing.

24 Now, was this document from the collection that you found or from

25 some other collection of documents?

Page 6261

1 A. I can't tell you really. This is the first time that I see this

2 document with handwritten corrections. And there is a list of documents

3 that were found in that safe box.

4 Q. All right. Do you know that the Kljuc defence command and the

5 Crisis Staff of Kljuc issued such calls for people to surrender weapons

6 and to go away? Was it done?

7 A. I'm not aware of this. However, at Manjaca I learned from the

8 rumours circulating there that people could move about after they raised

9 a white flag.

10 Q. Now, would you please look at the next document. It's a bit more

11 legible. It's your tab 4, and it's also marked as 1110 on the 65 ter

12 list. The document reads: "Given the increasingly more frequent

13 provocations," then once again they're issuing the ultimatum asking that

14 women, children and the elderly withdraw, they would be forced to start

15 firing.

16 This is one such document, and then I would ask you to look at

17 the next document in your tab 5. I'm interested in the white-flag issue.

18 65 ter number is 1112. It's an order from Prhovo, and the white flag is

19 mentioned in that document.

20 A. I didn't understand your question.

21 Q. Well, the white flag is being mentioned there. You said just a

22 minute ago that people who raised the white flag could move about.

23 A. Yes. I learned that at Manjaca from individuals who spoke about

24 it. They went from one family house to another family house, and they

25 were allowed to do that after they had raise the white flag.

Page 6262

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now tender

2 these documents into evidence if there are no objections on the part of

3 the Prosecution.

4 MS. PIDWELL: There's no objection.

5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits 2D47, 2D48, and 2D49.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Another question, Mr. Dzafic. As far as I could gather, you were

9 an artillery officer; right? Please remind me. Reserve officer. The

10 school that you graduated from in Zadar was the school for reserve

11 artillery officers, was that what it was, in the former Yugoslavia?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you must know that when artillery fire is being opened

14 against a settlement, in accordance with the laws of war, a warning

15 should have been issued to civilians to leave the area; right?

16 A. Well, I had no experience in that, but in principle that's how it

17 should be.

18 Q. I apologise. I apologise. Mr. Dzafic, the Prosecutor showed you

19 a document, that's OTP tab 34. 65 ter number is 831.

20 So the Prosecutor showed you these names, the names of the

21 prisoners. I will be putting questions to you concerning the first page

22 of the document, where Vinko Kondic informs Banja Luka -- or, rather, the

23 CSB in Banja Luka and says:

24 "In the territory of our municipality there are no camps,

25 prisons, or collection centres."

Page 6263

1 Do you know whether this is true, this piece of information?

2 A. The issue here is what do they mean when they say "collection

3 centre." If a collection centre is what existed in the gyms of various

4 schools, then there were collection centres and people were kept there

5 for two or three days, but if they mean places like Manjaca under

6 collection centre, then no.

7 Q. Well, when I say "collection centre," I mean places where you and

8 your compatriots were held. So when Vinko Kondic says that there were no

9 such places, no collection centres, that that was not true; correct?

10 A. Well, listen, the date here is the 29th of August. At that point

11 in time, I had been in Manjaca for quite a long time. However, from the

12 minute I was arrested and imprisoned, I was first imprisoned at the gym

13 in Sanica. I was held there for 24 hours. Then I was detained at the

14 gym in Kljuc again. And then the third gym was at Sitnica, where I spent

15 some five to seven days. I'm not sure. I'm not sure because I had been

16 beaten so severely that I was unconscious for some period of time. And

17 then we were taken on foot to Manjaca.

18 Q. So as far as you know, in Kljuc, were there any such locations

19 where detainees were held, regardless of what we call those names at the

20 time -- what we call those locations.

21 A. When I was arrested, detainees were mostly held at the gym in

22 Kljuc and in the premises of the police station if Kljuc. So there were

23 people both at the gym in Kljuc and the police station in Kljuc.

24 Q. And after you were brought to Manjaca, there were people coming

25 to Manjaca from Kljuc after you had arrived; right?

Page 6264

1 A. Yes. In smaller numbers and in smaller vehicles people were

2 being brought to Manjaca.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. When you were interviewed -- or, rather,

4 you gave several statements while you were in Kljuc. You gave a

5 statement to a representative of the public security centre. His name

6 was Vasic or something like that. And you also gave statements to

7 officers, to soldiers. You mentioned somebody called Mile Dragovic who

8 wore a captain's uniform when he took a statement from you.

9 A. Well, this is how it was: I gave my first statements --

10 statement at the elementary school in Kljuc to Mr. Vasic. Nedeljko, I

11 think. He took a statement from me. And then after an hour or two on

12 this same day, on the same morning, gave a statement to a military person

13 who was a captain. As I was giving that statement, Milicevic Dusko was

14 present in the room. He used to know him well. He was a police

15 inspector from Banja Luka. Milicevic Dusko, nicknamed Cadjo.

16 Q. And he wore a military uniform with a captain rank.

17 A. He wore a uniform and the rank was that of a captain.

18 Q. For the sake of the transcript: So Milicevic Dusko wore a

19 military uniform and had the rank of captain.

20 A. Yes, or perhaps lieutenant. But at any rate, it was a military

21 uniform, and he was either a captain or a lieutenant.

22 Q. And at that time when you went to Manjaca, in a part of your

23 statement you said that you had seen that Stojan Zupljanin came to

24 Manjaca in late July. Do you remember that in your statement? It's on

25 page 23 of your statement. Do you remember stating that?

Page 6265

1 A. I remember. I knew Mr. Zupljanin personally, and I remember

2 that. It was either in late July or early August. He came to Manjaca,

3 to the camp at Manjaca, and there were people accompanying him. I saw

4 him only in passing, because the prisoners from the other stable -- or,

5 rather, from stable number 2, whose head I was, were going to take their

6 meals. That was lunchtime. And given the previous experience and given

7 what had happened in the camp prior to that, I didn't dare look around.

8 I didn't dare see who was there. We normally were under orders to keep

9 our hands behind our backs and to stare at the ground or else there would

10 be beating, torture, and so on.

11 Q. And you said so at the time. You said that he was in a uniform,

12 and later on you corrected yourself, stating that he wore civilian

13 clothes.

14 A. As far as I remember, he wore civilian clothes, but you know the

15 situation that I was in at the time. I was afraid. It was summertime.

16 I really wasn't paying attention.

17 Q. And that was the only time that you saw or heard Stojan Zupljanin

18 visiting Manjaca; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then on page 23 you say that you heard from Fahrudin Krivic,

21 that Mirsad Latic approached Zupljanin and that Zupljanin placed his hand

22 on his shoulder, and he said to the commander of the camp, "Had it not

23 been for this man I wouldn't be alive today." Do you remember stating

24 that?

25 A. Yes, I remember those words of Mr. Krivic very well. He was on

Page 6266

1 duty at the stable number 2. And after the visit of Mr. Zupljanin to

2 Manjaca, he told me that, and I knew Mirsad personally, the Mirsad you

3 are mentioning now. He was a policeman from Gradiska.

4 Q. What I'm trying to say is that Fahrudin Krivic told you that

5 Mirsad Latic had told him about that conversation; right?

6 A. After Mr. Zupljanin left Manjaca, Mirsad told this to Krivic, and

7 Krivic said this to me, because we could have regular contacts with

8 people who were on duty in other stables because we had to communicate in

9 order to coordinate lunch-hour.

10 Q. Yes. That's all I wanted to clarify. I apologise for this.

11 I have a document here. My colleague Mr. Zecevic asked you about

12 this. It's a document about the activities and problem in the

13 functioning of the campaign entitled "Check-point 91." Mr. Zecevic asked

14 you --

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And I don't know whether the

16 Prosecutor would object, but I would like this to be shown to the witness

17 so as to round off this topic. This is 1D00-3437. I know it's not on

18 the list but it stems from the question put by Mr. Zecevic. So I would

19 like to explore this, and I would like to refresh his memory.

20 MS. PIDWELL: I'm really in Your Honours' hands here. I don't

21 know this document but I see it has a translation, so -- oh, sorry.

22 Perhaps if I could inquire if it has a translation at this stage.

23 JUDGE HALL: Do I understand it was a document that was put to

24 the witness yesterday by Mr. Zecevic?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. Mr. Zecevic

Page 6267

1 actually asked him today about this check-point operation and all the

2 check-points in Kljuc at the time, and what I would like to show is a

3 document that mentions this operation. And that's why I want to show it

4 to the document [as interpretation] although it was not originally on the

5 list of documents that I had prepared with this witness. Of course, if

6 you would allow it, and if not I'm in your hands, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: As always, Mr. Krgovic, we are looking with

8 excitement to anything coming from your side, but what exactly is the

9 purpose of bringing up the matter of these check-points and the --

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the point is -- the

11 purpose is this: As far as we understand the position of the

12 Prosecution, these check-points, or whatever we want to call them, were

13 put up by the Serbian side in order to establish control over the

14 territory in Kljuc municipality, and this was an operation at the

15 ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina level in order to defuse the tensions

16 and to try and return most of the areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

17 especially the border areas with Croatia, to return them to peace,

18 because war was going -- war was on at the time in Croatia. And that is

19 the only reason why both the Prosecution and the Defence are dealing with

20 the check-points at length.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: In my recollection, I think Mr. Zecevic actually

22 covered this quite substantially, so I don't see a need for adding

23 anything further to that matter unless you have a new aspect that wasn't

24 raised by Mr. Zecevic this morning.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I just wanted to

Page 6269

1 had a plane to catch and has -- well, farewelled himself from me, in any

2 event, before -- in the break, but in answer to your question, the

3 cross-examination in the Brdjanin trial was submitted when I tendered the

4 92 ter package at the beginning of the witness's testimony.

5 JUDGE HALL: So it's there already. Thank you. Thank you very

6 much.

7 Yes, Ms. Pidwell, you may begin your cross-examination.

8 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.

9 Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic. Can you hear me?

11 A. Good afternoon to you, too, and, yes, I can hear you.

12 Q. That's good. Sir, I now have the opportunity just to ask you a

13 few questions which -- to clarify some issues which have arisen during

14 the course of this morning, and I -- I won't take long.

15 Firstly, sir, you were asked some questions at the beginning of

16 this morning by Mr. Zecevic, and I'm referring particularly to page 9 of

17 the transcript, about some -- about the log-books and daily events that

18 we talked about yesterday. Do you recall that?

19 A. Well, yesterday we discussed the duty log-book, and in addition

20 to that, Mr. Zecevic mentioned also the daily events log-book.

21 Q. Yes. Yes, that's correct. And my question, sir, is the daily

22 events log-book, whose job was it to enter the -- the events of the day

23 into that book?

24 A. The daily events log-book was the responsibility of the duty

25 officer, duty police officer, who would receive reports or complaints

Page 6270

1 from citizens, and then -- or by telephone, and he would then enter them

2 in the log-book.

3 Q. And was there ever an occasion when you or your superior,

4 Vinko Kondic, entered entries into that daily log?

5 A. While I was still employed, I did not normally enter anything,

6 any incidents in the daily log-book, nor was it within my competence, but

7 from time to time I would review them to make sure that the events that

8 were recorded had actually been followed through and completed.

9 Q. Thank you. And was it part of Vinko Kondic's role to also review

10 that log-book?

11 A. As a matter of principle, no, although he was authorised, of

12 course. He had the powers in case he needed to look into some specific

13 incident. He could then look it up in the daily events log-book.

14 Q. Thank you. And you said that daily information reports were then

15 compiled from this -- this record of the daily events, and did these

16 daily reports have to be signed by Vinko Kondic or yourself before they

17 were submitted to the Banja Luka CSB?

18 A. Generally speaking, yes.

19 Q. Thank you. You were also asked this morning - and I'm referring

20 to page 14 of the transcript - about some contradictory orders from the

21 CSB Banja Luka and from Chief Kondic.

22 My question, sir, is: Were you privy to meetings between Kondic

23 and the Banja Luka CSB in the early part of 1992, before you were

24 removed?

25 A. No, I wasn't privy to them. I wasn't privy to the meetings at

Page 6271

1 the CSB chief's office and his meetings with the chiefs of the public

2 security stations.

3 Q. And to your knowledge, did Vinko Kondic have a good relationship

4 with his superiors in Banja Luka?

5 MR. KRGOVIC: How this question appear from my cross-examination?

6 MS. PIDWELL: Well, Your Honours, the issue is whether there were

7 contradictory orders from the Banja Luka CSB or from Vinko Kondic to this

8 witness. And my question is, what is the relationship between the two

9 parties who were supposedly issuing these contradictory orders.

10 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.

11 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, my question was: Can you comment on the relationship

13 between Chief Vinko Kondic and his superiors in the CSB Banja Luka?

14 A. As far as I can recall, in reply to some questions I said that

15 there were never any conflicting orders coming from the chief of the CSB

16 in Banja Luka or Chief Kondic. The conflict -- the contradictions were

17 between the chief of the public security station and the orders coming

18 from the authorities in Sarajevo, from the Ministry of the Interior.

19 Q. Thank you, sir. And could you now please comment on the

20 relationship between Chief Kondic and the CSB Banja Luka, if you're able

21 to.

22 A. Well, I didn't attend those meetings, and I cannot really say

23 much about them. I don't know what to tell you.

24 Q. That's fine. Thank you, sir. You were also asked some questions

25 this morning - and I'm now referring to page 19 and 20 of the

Page 6272

1 transcript - about your walk from the gym at Sitnica to Manjaca and about

2 the -- the -- how far away it was. Could you just tell the Tribunal,

3 please, how long that walk took you.

4 A. As far as I can recall, we set off around 10.00 in the morning,

5 or thereabout. We were lined up at that time. As I said, we were lined

6 five in a row, and we started walking towards Manjaca. We went -- we

7 stopped briefly in two villages for about 15 minutes or so. We were

8 given some water to drink. And then, if I still remember this well,

9 around 5.00 in the afternoon we arrived at Manjaca. Around 5.00 or

10 6.00 p.m., or thereabout.

11 Now, if we try and translate that into kilometres, I would say

12 that that would have been about 15 kilometres of -- of road that we

13 crossed from Sitnica to Manjaca, and this is just my estimate, rough

14 estimate.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. You were also asked, later in the morning, about

16 the Red Berets when they came to Kljuc. And I'm referring to pages 23

17 and 24 of the transcript. And I want to now show you a photograph, sir,

18 and see if that assists you in -- to see whether you recognise the

19 uniforms and if you can comment on them in any way.

20 MS. PIDWELL: And I'd like the witness to be shown P98, please.

21 Q. Sir, are you able to see a photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you able to comment on this photograph and assist us in any

24 way with the uniforms or the regiment or anything like that? I know you

25 haven't seen this photograph before, so it may be difficult for you. And

Page 6273

1 if you can't say, that's fine.

2 A. I cannot really say anything about the unit itself. I don't

3 really know anything about that. All I can say is that the group of ten

4 or so men who were in Kljuc at the time wore the same type of uniform.

5 They -- and also they had these red berets on their head.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you recall being asked some questions and

7 being shown the statement of Omer Filipovic, that he made, and being

8 asked about a statement like that being standard procedure for citizens

9 or suspects who were arrested?

10 A. Well, this was the first time that I saw the statement by Mr. --

11 by Mr. Omer. The heading was -- that we saw on the statement was the

12 usual heading and standard procedure. However, I question the contents

13 of the statement, how true it is and under what circumstances the

14 statement was given, because knowing the circumstances under which I gave

15 my statement and the way it was taken, under what kind of threat, I have

16 no faith whatsoever as to the truthfulness of this statement. Not

17 5 per cent of it I believe is true. So this is just on paper.

18 Q. And, sir, the statement that you referred to that you made, was

19 it also in this form?

20 A. The statement that I made at the elementary school building in

21 Kljuc and the statement that I made in Sitnica at the elementary school

22 building or at Manjaca, these statements were never shown to me. I never

23 signed them, so I can't really comment on it. I've never seen it -- I've

24 never seen them nor signed them, nor was I ever shown anything.

25 Q. And, sir, did Omer Filipovic go in the same group as you to

Page 6274

1 Manjaca?

2 A. As far as I can remember, no.

3 Q. There's just one point I want to clarify at page 39 of the

4 transcript. Sir, you were asked a question by Mr. Krgovic, and the

5 question reads:

6 "And the event when the convoy in Busija was attacked, you

7 learned of it one or two hours later from Dragan Tomic, squad commander."

8 And then your answer was that you spent several days in Sanica

9 before you went to Kljuc, and that you'd met up with the commander of the

10 police squad in Sanica.

11 I just want to clarify, sir, the name of the squad commander

12 you're referring to.

13 A. If you allow me, I'd like to clarify something here. On that day

14 when this incident occurred in Busija, close to Kljuc, on the main road

15 between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, I was in Sanica, and it was on that

16 very day that I intended to go back to Kljuc. In Sanica, near a cafe, I

17 ran into a squad commander in Sanica, Milan Tomic. His task was to

18 inspect all the cafes and order them to be shut down because of this

19 incident that occurred in Busija. I asked him if one could get to Kljuc

20 and he said no, the road is blocked off until further notice. So I

21 remained in Sanica. I believe this was on the 27th of May, when all this

22 was happening.

23 I stayed in Sanica until the 1st because the road was blocked and

24 I couldn't return to Kljuc, but, rather, on the 31st, I think in the

25 morning, I was arrested in the house of one of my brothers where I was

Page 6275

1 staying.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. You were asked later on this morning by

3 Mr. Krgovic about what you knew about the incident at Biljani, and you

4 talked about how people had told you about that incident when you were at

5 Manjaca.

6 A. Yes. I was told about this at Manjaca. People told me about it.

7 And now looking at this order and seeing all the units that took part in

8 this operation, it became much clearer to me, I mean, what was going on

9 then and what happened there.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. My question is: The people that you spoke to

11 about this incident who you say had survived this operation, were they --

12 what was their ethnicity?

13 A. They were Muslims. They were of Muslim ethnicity, Bosniaks.

14 Q. And were they, to your knowledge, soldiers or civilians?

15 A. As far as I know, they were all civilians. They were detained,

16 arrested in the morning, taken from their homes and so on.

17 Q. Thank you. You were also asked some questions, sir, by

18 Mr. Krgovic, and I'm referring to page 51 of the transcript. You were

19 shown some documents, some orders which referred to a white flag. Do you

20 recall that?

21 A. I do recall that, and I read those two documents that related to

22 the white flag. As for me, all I knew -- all the information that I had

23 was that the white flag was raised if you were -- would mean that you had

24 surrendered and that you could move freely outside of your home or that

25 place, that village.

Page 6276

1 Q. To your knowledge, was there any other restriction on movement in

2 Kljuc at this time?

3 A. Well, to my knowledge, the other active-duty policemen who

4 remained in Kljuc and who hadn't been arrested and taken to Manjaca, they

5 were told and ordered to stay in their homes. Their movement was

6 restricted. It was prohibited. And if necessary, I can tell you the

7 names of those police officers.

8 Q. That's not necessary. Thank you, sir. But I'd ask you to look

9 at a document, please. It's 65 ter 2406. You'll have to look at it on

10 the screen, sir, I think, because it won't be in the binder.

11 Are you familiar with the contents of that order, sir?

12 MR. KRGOVIC: How is it related with my cross-examination,

13 Your Honour? It's a document from the 5th of May, and even --

14 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour --

15 MR. KRGOVIC: -- in Kljuc. Ask about what was happening in Kljuc

16 in that period of time.

17 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honours, the questions are directly related to

18 the series of questions put by my learned friend about citizens being

19 restricted, their movement being restricted in Kljuc at the time. He put

20 questions about orders that they had to raise a white flag in order to

21 move freely around the town, and this stems from this, that there were

22 other restrictions as well in the area.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: In combat operation zone. It's not restriction.

24 My question was related to the warning issued by command of the town.

25 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Pidwell, aren't you going beyond where

Page 6277

1 Mr. Krgovic went in his cross-examination.

2 MS. PIDWELL: With respect, sir, I don't think Mr. Krgovic

3 limited his questions to combat zones.

4 JUDGE HALL: But in any event, the result would be that you're

5 opening new ground with this witness, isn't it? And does it -- at the

6 end of the day, what turns on it?

7 MS. PIDWELL: Well, sir, the -- the series of questions from the

8 Defence were that citizens who wanted to move around were able to by

9 raising this white flag, and there was a military order to that effect.

10 The series of questions that preceded these documents didn't restrict

11 that to a combat zone. This witness was in the area at the time, and

12 there was an order restricting the movement of citizens as well at that

13 time, and that's, in my submission, enough proximity to be able to put

14 this to the witness at this stage in re-examination.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Pidwell.

17 MS. PIDWELL: Thank you, sir.

18 Q. Sir, my question was: Are you familiar with the -- the terms of

19 this order dated 5 May 1992?

20 A. I cannot see. I cannot read the order. I don't see it.

21 Q. Perhaps I can read it to you, sir, and the interpreters can

22 interpret it. It's an order dated the 5 May 1992, and it reads:

23 "Pursuant to the decision by the government of the Autonomous

24 Region of Krajina, the president of the Council for Territorial Defence

25 of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly issued the following order:

Page 6278

1 "1. All organs of social communities, economic and other

2 organisations shall immediately begin work under wartime organisation.

3 "2. The entire territory of the Municipal Assembly shall be

4 placed under curfew between the hours of 2200 and 0500, except the

5 persons with official authorisation from the police, military police, or

6 Serbian territorial army.

7 "3. This order shall enter into force immediately."

8 And it's signed by Jovo Banjac, president of the Council for

9 National Defence.

10 A. I'm not familiar with this order, and I didn't see it but I know

11 and I recall it vividly that there was a curfew imposed at this time as

12 mentioned under item 2.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MS. PIDWELL: I wonder if I can seek to tender that as an exhibit

15 at this stage. I appreciate the difficulties, Your Honour. The witness

16 doesn't know the order was -- well, he was present at the time the order

17 was made and knows that it existed. Of course he's not privy to the

18 document itself or the order itself. I'm in your hands.

19 JUDGE HALL: What he has said is that he is familiar with the

20 fact that there was a curfew. Do you need more than that? I don't see

21 how this can be tendered through him.

22 MS. PIDWELL: Well, if it can be MFI'd at this stage. Thank you.

23 JUDGE HALL: Pending? Pending what?

24 MS. PIDWELL: Pending a further witness.

25 JUDGE HALL: I suppose so.

Page 6279

1 THE REGISTRAR: Document P979, marked for identification. The

2 exhibit number is P979, marked for identification, and the 65 ter, 2406.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.

4 MS. PIDWELL:

5 Q. And I just have one final topic to cover with you, sir. You were

6 asked some questions - and I'm now referring to line 54 of the

7 transcript - about a person by the name of Dusko Milicevic. Do you

8 recall that?

9 A. Yes, I remember that gentleman very well, because we studied

10 together at the Faculty of Political Science in Zagreb. In addition to

11 that, I remember him from before 1991 or 1992. He was a member of the

12 municipal secretariat in Banja Luka where he was an inspector in charge

13 of thefts. He occasionally came to Kljuc to help. That usually happened

14 on Saturdays because Saturday is the market day in Kljuc, when there were

15 some incidents of pick-pocketing, because the citizens who came to the

16 market were targeted by the pick-pockets.

17 Q. My question, sir, is, you have said in evidence that he was a

18 police inspector from Banja Luka, and you've also said that he had the

19 rank of a captain or lieutenant and wore a military uniform. Do you know

20 whether he was part of the MUP or whether he was part of the military?

21 A. Look, I said when I knew him before the date when I was arrested,

22 that is to say, taken prisoner and brought to the primary school in

23 Kljuc, before that he was discharging the duties which I just described,

24 and at that time I saw him in a military uniform with the rank captain, I

25 think. It was rather captain than lieutenant, but I'm not 100 per cent