Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6599

 1                           Monday, 22 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             Good afternoon to everyone.  May I have the appearances, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

10     assisted today and for the rest of this week by Jasmina Bosnjakovic, as

11     Case Manager.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm

13     no longer used to making the appearances for my team because Mr. Zecevic

14     has been doing it so far.  On behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Stanisic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic and the Case Manager, Tatjana Savic.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

17     Defence today appearing, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             The -- if there are no preliminary matters --

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there are, I mentioned that to your

21     Legal Officer.

22             Your Honour, I'm afraid there are a number of matters.

23             First, can I formally apply to have exhibited the three pages --

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE HALL:  The -- you said a number of matters.

Page 6600

 1             MS. KORNER:  They're all short, Your Honour, but they need to be

 2     dealt with now.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this one simply so that I don't

 5     forget.

 6             The pages of the -- the three pages of the interview that I put

 7     to Mr. Vlaski in cross-examination, there was a discussion when

 8     Mr. Hannis was in court.  And all I want to do is it ask that those three

 9     pages, which are pages 30 to 32 of the interview, Exhibit 9020, as the

10     65 ter number, be made exhibits.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  If I may, Your Honour.

12             Position of, I believe, both Defence teams are the following.

13             We object to this approach of our learned friend Ms. Korner on

14     the following basis.  First of all, witness left.  Secondly, on the basis

15     of Mr. Hannis submission, I believe it was on Friday, or Thursday, the

16     main issue and the position of the Prosecution is that they were, to some

17     extent, unsecure, whether Ms. Korner rightly quoted particular questions

18     and gists of Mr. Vlaski interview.  And our position is that everything

19     is fine.  Ms. Korner rightly quoted these particular questions, and his

20     answers.  Ms. Korner got her time and the chance, and that's over.  End

21     of story.

22             It is great concern of the Defence that, if this practice will be

23     allowed, this practice of Prosecution will be allowed by Trial Chamber,

24     that would actually create a sort of practice of introducing on the back

25     door certain documents or exhibits, et cetera.  So, in short, this is

Page 6601

 1     position of Defence team, and we strongly object to have these few pages

 2     admitted as the exhibit, because, as I said, the basis was whether

 3     Ms. Korner rightly quoted and interpreted these particular portions or

 4     not.  And we say yes, everything was fine, transcript is clear, end of

 5     story.

 6             Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I thought this matter had been settled

 8     from last week, and the -- it was -- when this issue had been canvassed

 9     it was fairly clear that the relevant portions having been put to the

10     witness by you in -- was it -- I think in re-examination that that was

11     sufficient.  Why -- I -- I'm not sure I understand why this issue is

12     being resurrected.

13             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]... about whether I'd

14     quoted correctly, I happened to read the transcript, and there was an

15     argument of whether I was asking for the whole interview or just the

16     three pages.  And I'm just asking for the three pages to be made an

17     exhibit, in the same way as if a document had been read to the witness.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MR. PANTELIC:  If I may be of assistance, Your Honours, it's

20     hearing on 18th of February, which is Thursday.  If are you looking for

21     this particular parts.

22             In fact, Mr. Hannis mentioned that on Friday, this position, and

23     he said, well, Ms. Korner wasn't there, and he will wait for Monday.  But

24     actually, this particular, I would say, line of questioning was on

25     Thursday.  It's page -- well, I don't know ...

Page 6602

 1             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... I found Thursday.  At

 2     page 6499, and as everybody rightly says, Mr. Hannis was dealing with

 3     this.  And Judge Harhoff said:  "Maybe the Prosecution should simply just

 4     specify exactly which parts you wish to have exhibited."  Whether it's

 5     any of the parts read out or the pages --

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated].

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, and I'm just asking for the pages, as I would

 8     do with any other document that was read in full.  And I cannot see what

 9     the objection is.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, we will give our ruling in the course of

12     today's sitting but not immediately.

13             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... that's fine.  Thank

14     you very much.

15             Your Honour, can I move to a second matter, and that's this

16     question of -- of late notification, if you like, of exhibits and

17     application to add to the 65 ter.

18             Obviously I'm aware of what took place in respect of Mr. Hannis's

19     witness last week.

20             Can I say something about the situation.  These witnesses, most

21     of them, have only -- were interviewed sometime ago.  When they come up

22     here, and that's before we did our 65 ter list, we simply don't have the

23     budget to go and re-interview everybody.  For example, today's witness

24     was interviewed in 2001.  To go and re-interview everybody well in

25     advance of when they're being called.  When they come, they look at

Page 6603

 1     documents to see whether they can recognise them or say something which

 2     is there to assist the Trial Chamber.  So quite often, as in this

 3     particular case, and indeed as with Mr. Hannis's witness, we won't know

 4     until the day before the trial -- the day before the trial, the day

 5     before the witness is called, whether they can say something useful about

 6     a particular document which is not on our 65 ter list or may be on our

 7     65 ter list but hasn't been shown to him before.

 8             We would love this to be a perfect system and so we'd be able to

 9     notify everyone well in advance of which documents the witness can speak

10     to but it just logically isn't possible.  And we know that Your Honours

11     have well in mind the fact that the interests of justice are paramount in

12     this case and that Your Honours use such evidence as you can to find the

13     truth.

14             So, Your Honours, with apologies, always -- and we always do

15     notify the Defence in advance, we cannot always have the perfect list of

16     documents.  In today's case, that has proved to be exactly the same.  We

17     notified the Defence last Friday and Your Honours of the documents we may

18     be using.  As it turns out, because some he can't identify, we won't be

19     using all of them.  But what we're asking is not to have to put in a

20     written motion, which would be the day before, simply to deal with the

21     documents, unless they are documents that have never been disclosed, and

22     that's a completely different matter and I'm not talking about that today

23     except with one exception, a map.  That we're allowed to deal with it, we

24     MFI it and then we apply formally in motion, as we have just recently

25     done, to add the document to our 65 ter list.

Page 6604

 1             As I say I know it is not perfect, but it seems to me that it is

 2     not unfair, if I can put it that way, to the Defence, provided we give

 3     notice and provided those documents have been disclosed.  And for these

 4     purposes I'm not talking about -- obviously re-examination.

 5             Can I -- that leads me into the next problem, I'm afraid,

 6     Your Honours --

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before you move on, could I just ask how this

 8     presentation of documents is organised?  Because what I imagine takes

 9     place is that in the process leading up to the witness's arrival to

10     The Hague, the Prosecutor who is dealing with this witness will review

11     the material and select the documents that -- that will then be put to

12     the witness once the witness arrives, and in your proofing session, will

13     be shown to him.

14             Now, some of these documents, you say, he doesn't recognise.  He

15     has never seen them before, unable to speak to them.  While others he

16     may.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And -- and so you end up with a number of

19     documents which -- to which the witness can actually speak.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Some of these documents, you then say, may not

22     have been put on your 65 ter list.

23             So my question is now, whether it would be possible to, first of

24     all, notify the Defence, way ahead of the witness's arrival, that these

25     are the documents that you actually intend to throw at him when -- or

Page 6605

 1     her, when she comes.  Because that would at least provide some degree of

 2     earlier notice to the Defence and also to the Chamber for us to prepare,

 3     and -- and that might solve some of the problem of notification.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we appreciate that and that's

 5     clearly -- now having seen the problems, we're trying to do that.  Up

 6     till now the problem --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  As the Presiding Judge said, we will deal with

 9     this in the break and offer our ruling.

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Can I say it leads me into, I'm afraid, what

11     is a problem and that's -- which I alluded to, I think, last week.

12             Today's witness, there are huge -- as you have seen from the

13     list, a large number of documents that it became clear that he might be

14     able to speak to, not to mention having to listen to his interview and

15     also to some intercepts.

16             Arrangements were made for Defence counsel to see him --

17             MR. PANTELIC:  I'm terribly sorry, please.  Please, Ms. Korner.

18             Your Honours, would it be appropriate to hear submission of the

19     Defence on the previous issue before you go to another issue.

20             Thank you so much.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just have a few

22     things to say.  I want to point out to you what kind of difficulties the

23     Defence is facing with this type of application by the Prosecution.

24             Since the Defence based its preparations on -- based on the

25     65 ter list and the summaries of witness evidence, our investigation and

Page 6606

 1     our preparations were geared in that direction.  Unless the Prosecution

 2     makes an application with reasonable notice, leaving enough time for the

 3     Defence to check certain documentation and to conduct certain inquiries

 4     on the ground and prepare to deal with such documents, including changes

 5     in the strategy, if necessary, we are very prejudiced.  Introducing new

 6     documentation just two days before the arrival of a witness causes us

 7     enormous difficulties, and regardless of the formal equality of arms

 8     between the two sides, we have much less resources, much less people to

 9     be able to prepare adequately for the trial, and that is an objective

10     problem.  In this situation, we can either ask for a delay in calling the

11     particular witness; or we can ask for the witness to be re-called later,

12     which poses certain difficulties for everyone, including the Trial

13     Chamber.

14             The Prosecution had foresight, they had intentions, a --

15     particular intentions when calling a particular witness.  By doing this,

16     they are enlarging the scope of evidence.  I think the Trial Chamber

17     should take that into account when deciding on an application like this,

18     especially since some documents are included that have not even been

19     disclosed to the Defence.  And I know that the Trial Chamber will decide

20     to what extent they are relevant to the proceedings, but I just wanted to

21     the point out these few aspects.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, my -- my initial question and I don't

23     want to argue, I just want to try to understand, was why are these

24     documents, whether the particular witness can speak to them or not, why

25     are they not on -- on your initial or initially on your 65 ter list?

Page 6607

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that is a perfectly fair question.

 2     There's a number of reasons.

 3             One is that the Prosecution was -- I wouldn't say ordered because

 4     I don't think it was an order exactly but was asked to cut down its

 5     65 ter list way, way back, when the Trial Chamber was differently

 6     constituted, and this was before - I think we're going back to 2007 or

 7     2008, I can't off the top of my head remember - before Zupljanin was

 8     arrested.  Then, having done that, when it came to looking at what was to

 9     go onto the 65 ter list, the feeling was that still then that we ought to

10     restrict it as much as possible particularly with adjudicated facts.

11             The third reason was that the issues which have become live

12     issues in this case, like communication, for example, were never made

13     clear until after the 65 ter list was served and indeed wasn't even made

14     clear in the pre-trial brief in many respects from the Defence, and the

15     issues are now coming to light which means we have got do deal with them.

16     And so that's -- that's the -- it's a mixture of reasons, I accept.  But

17     that's the reality of the situation.

18             As I say, it is completely different matter if we haven't

19     disclosed, and I hear my learned friend saying we haven't disclosed.  I

20     am unaware of any documents, other than the map of Sarajevo which I

21     produced this morning because it became apparent that the one didn't have

22     Lukavica in it, that we haven't disclosed.  So, Your Honours, I

23     appreciate it is not ideal.  And can I say straightaway we -- it is clear

24     that -- that we're going to have to try and find the resources to put

25     together the packages for the witnesses before this.  I -- can I assure

Page 6608

 1     Your Honours that, like the Defence, we're buried in work at the moment.

 2     And -- but I absolutely accept that the longer the time we can give

 3     notice to you and to the Defence, the better.  And we will try and work

 4     out a system.

 5             The only thing at the moment that I wanted to raise was just

 6     simply that -- this having to put into writing.  I don't think it assists

 7     anybody, either us nor indeed you the Trial Judges, to have further

 8     written applications which you have to deal with, and so that is the

 9     matter that I wanted to raise.

10             But I can just explain also my concern about witnesses.  The

11     gentleman who is about to come, as I say, got here on Saturday night.  He

12     was seen for two hours on Saturday morning by the Defence because as has

13     been explained to you, the Defence don't have the resources to see the

14     witnesses in advance.  He then sat there until 6.00 in the evening when

15     he informed us that the Defence wanted to speak to him again, that

16     evening, which they did, for another two hours.  So he hadn't finished

17     going through the documents and -- and this is our witness.  He had to

18     come back in again this morning, finish looking through the documents.

19     In fact I saw him for a total, I think, of 45 minutes in the end.

20     Leaving that aside and the fact that he is a Prosecution witness, it is

21     oppressive, in our view, to put somebody through that sort of

22     interrogation, and it's not what the Defence being entitled to speak to

23     Defence witness -- Prosecution witnesses is meant to be.

24             So -- I -- in fact, I spoke to the witness and asked him if he

25     wasn't too exhausted to give evidence this afternoon.  He says, no, he's

Page 6609

 1     perfectly happy to go, as far as we can see.  But this cannot not be

 2     right, Your Honours.

 3             Which leads me -- and it's connected with the problems about

 4     giving advance notice to the Defence of which -- to which documents the

 5     witness can speak, if such time as he's brought up here, the Defence -- a

 6     good half of his time was taken up by the Defence today, with this

 7     witness, which we say is wrong.

 8             Additionally, Your Honour, we had an e-mail today from the

 9     Defence Zupljanin.  The witness who is coming after this witness, this

10     week, was contacted by us at the request of the Defence who provided a

11     list of those witnesses they wished to talk to.  Nearly all of them

12     are -- we're in open session.  But, anyhow, this particular witness said

13     that he did not wish to talk to the Defence.  He also said he did not

14     wish to have his contact details passed to the Defence, because they were

15     asked that as well.  That was in October of last year.  His Honour

16     Judge Harhoff may remember -- or Your Honours may remember.  And that was

17     the arrangement, that we would contact the witnesses.  There would be no

18     direct contact from the Defence.

19             We are informed today that the investigator for the Zupljanin

20     team got in touch with this witness, how we don't know, who has now

21     allegedly changed his mind about speaking to the Defence.

22             Now the system has been that we ask -- if they -- if we are

23     re-asked, when the witness gets here we ask them, Are you prepared to

24     talk to us, or if the Defence notifies they'd like the witness to be

25     asked again we're prepared to do it.  We are deeply troubled by a Defence

Page 6610

 1     investigator, most of whom are ex-MUP officers of one kind or another,

 2     speaking to a witness whom they have been told does not wish to speak to

 3     them.  And Your Honours I am in regard to the question of timing, and --

 4     and Mr. Cvijetic seeing this witness for so long, I don't think that is

 5     something we may have to bring back before Your Honours.  We really have

 6     to bring the witnesses out so much earlier, but I am concerned and I am

 7     asking Your Honours for a ruling that the Defence do not send their

 8     investigators to speak to witnesses who have said, in terms, they do not

 9     wish to speak to the Defence.  That's -- it seems to me that that's

10     something that is inappropriate, if I can put it that way.

11             Your Honours, before I move on to my last point which I need go

12     into closed session -- private session for.  I don't know whether there

13     wants to be a response.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just before we

15     respond, which witness is Ms. Korner saying that I have been in contact

16     for a long time?

17             MS. KORNER:  The witness who is about to start giving evidence,

18     two hours yesterday morning and two hours last night.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] This morning?

20             MS. KORNER:  No.  Yesterday morning, between 9.00 and 11.15, and

21     yesterday evening between 7.30 and 9.30.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Correct.  I thought that you were

23     discussing all the time some future witness.  This one I met here.  I

24     thought we were talking about a future witness.  Yes, it is correct that

25     we met yesterday with the knowledge of the Victims and Witness Service

Page 6611

 1     and both these encounters were attended by representatives of the VWS.

 2             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated].

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  And, Your Honour, just to explain the position of

 4     the Defence, with regard to the --

 5             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated].

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  Next witness.  He is a viva voce -- it's open so

 7     can we mention his name, just for the clarification.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think it --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Does it matter?  Is it necessary?

10             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, it's not -- it's not necessary --

11             MS. KORNER:  I don't mean the witness who's about to start --

12             MR. PANTELIC:  Okay, okay.

13             MS. KORNER:  -- this afternoon.  The one after that.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  No problem.

15             So for the next witness we have, first of all, understanding that

16     there is no so-called -- so-called right to have a witness.  There is no

17     kind of restriction in our road to justice for each side to have

18     exclusive right on the witness.  Of course, Defence is very, very mindful

19     regarding the position of witness, whether particular witness in question

20     would like or don't like to speak with Defence.  That's completely

21     understandable.

22             In -- in this particular case, we have information, because this

23     witness is chief of the one of the departments in CSB Banja Luka and

24     former colleague of our investigator so they have a good relationship,

25     private and professional, and when -- and, of course, they -- they made

Page 6612

 1     several contacts well before.  And last contact, when our learned friend

 2     from Prosecution informed us, surprisingly, that next witness doesn't

 3     want to speak with the Defence, our investigators checked that fact.

 4     Maybe it was a misunderstanding in communication.  And finally we got the

 5     position that the witness said, I don't want to be Prosecution witness,

 6     and I don't want to be Defence witness.  Some -- something to that

 7     extent.  Obviously that he doesn't understand in which capacity he is --

 8     he is calling.  But, in any case, he never mentioned that he don't -- he

 9     doesn't want to speak with the Defence.  That's the point.  That's the

10     bottom line.

11             So Variant A, maybe Prosecution in its communications with the

12     officer in field and the other members of -- of Prosecution office did

13     not understand this position of the witness.  And the other, which I

14     really don't believe, is that simply Prosecution tried to manipulate and

15     to misinterpret certain situation.  Simply as that.

16             Point number one, that next witness never expressed his will not

17     to speak with the Defence.  As far as I'm informed, his position is that

18     he even don't want to be a Prosecution witness, or Defence.  I'm not

19     going into these details.  But at the end of the day, Defence would like

20     to have a clear situation.  We do not want to rely upon the informations

21     regarding witnesses from Prosecution side.  We want, in presence of our

22     authorised member of the team, whether in the field or here, to have a

23     clear word from the -- from the witness, No, I don't want to speak with

24     the Defence, because, otherwise, it's a huge and waste and -- and great,

25     I would say, space for misunderstanding or misinterpretation, et cetera,

Page 6613

 1     et cetera.

 2             So I don't have any problem for -- for this Trial Chamber to

 3     rule and to give certain guide-lines or instructions with regard to the

 4     witnesses.  Of course, having in mind the fact that a witness is not a

 5     property of the either party.  A witness is a witness.  But if that would

 6     be the case, I don't have any problem that, for each particular witness

 7     in this situation where we don't have clear position and answers between

 8     two parties, that the witness himself or herself will be able to say yes

 9     or no.  Yes, I want to speak with Defence; no, I don't want to speak with

10     Defence, in the presence of the member of -- of Defence team.

11             And, of course, all witnesses are witnesses of the Court, and we

12     are all going on this road to justice.

13             Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the whole point about all of this was

15     that witnesses should not be pressurised, particularly witnesses who are

16     ex-members of the MUP, and should be free to decide whether or not they

17     wish to speak to the Defence.

18             All that we're saying is, it is improper for an investigator to

19     ring up a witness who they have been told does not wish to speak to them

20     nor does he want his contact details.  Nobody has explained how he got

21     his contact details but --  and what we're saying is that the Defence, if

22     they think there's a mistake being made, are perfectly entitled and we're

23     perfectly happy to make the phone call in front of them so they can hear

24     what the witness has said.  But they should not behind the -- as it were,

25     in a havey-cavey manner, ringing up these witnesses.

Page 6614

 1             Now, Your Honours, until the witness arrives we can't sort this

 2     out.  But as I say, my concern is that undue pressure is both being put

 3     on the witnesses by the fact of the Defence seeing them.  As I've said

 4     over and over again, if the Defence want to interview witnesses, the

 5     proper way for them to do it is to interview them using an investigator

 6     or themselves somewhere before the -- not immediately before the witness

 7     gives evidence.  That's the first thing.

 8             Second thing.  If they don't accept what the witness has told us,

 9     we're perfectly happy for a further phone call to be made to the

10     witnesses in the presence of the Defence, asking them whether they want

11     to speak to them.

12             But, Your Honour, that -- that's the situation.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Well, in terms of this last issue, we will -- we

14     have the benefit of what counsel on both sides have said and we will be

15     assisted by the transcript and decide whether it would be practical and

16     useful for the Chamber to attempt, in the light of established practice

17     of the Tribunal, to give the type of guide-lines which both sides seem to

18     suggest would be helpful.

19             You had a third matter, Ms. Korner, which you want to go into --

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry.  I do apologise, Your Honour, just a very

21     short submission.

22             We strongly object to the use of word of "pressurised" or

23     "pressure."  It is not fair.  It is not true.  It's not the case.  There

24     is no pressure.  It is not fair from you to use that word.

25             In any case, we are ready to have any statement of the witness to

Page 6615

 1     say whether he was pressurised or threatened or whatever and then we can

 2     deal with that.  We have rules here.  It is not fair to put these kind of

 3     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE HALL:  We would prefer not to go --

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  -- down that road.

 7             Could we go into private session to deal with Ms. Korner's last

 8     matter.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6616

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  You're ready with your Witness 164.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Yes, exactly.  Your Honours, while he's being

18     sought -- [Microphone not activated].

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Korner, please.

20             MS. KORNER:  While he's being sought we -- or got, we asked for

21     three hours originally.  It is quite clear, even though the number of

22     documents he can deal with is not as great as those on the list, that

23     it's going to take a little time just to take him through the documents.

24     Your Honours, I'm hoping that I have got some time in the bank from

25     having cut short my examination of Mr. Vlaski, and so could ask that I be

Page 6617

 1     given four hours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  I think the way we approached this in the past is we

 3     will see how your three hours go, and towards the end of that, then we'll

 4     entertain your application.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.

10                           WITNESS:  DRAGO BOROVCANIN

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  First of all, we thank you for your appearance

14     and attendance before the Tribunal, and I will begin by asking you your

15     name.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Drago Borovcanin.  I was born

17     on the 20th of July, 1948, in Mokro.  That is a small village near Pale.

18     If necessary, I can give you further details.

19             JUDGE HALL:  What is your profession?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professor of sociology.  That

21     is not my current line of work, but I did get a degree from the faculty

22     of political science at the University of Sarajevo, and my degree was in

23     sociology.

24             JUDGE HALL:  And your current line of work is?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently I work in the Ministry

Page 6618

 1     for Human Rights and Refugees of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That is one of

 2     the nine ministries that were established after the Dayton Peace

 3     Agreement was signed.  Right now, I am working at that ministry.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb by ethnicity.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously before this Tribunal

 7     or in your -- your country of residence?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never before.  This is my very

 9     first time.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I would begin by explaining to you briefly the

11     procedure that is followed in this Tribunal, and which is fairly common

12     in terms of courts universally.  That is that the side calling you will

13     begin - in this case, it is the Prosecution - by asking you questions,

14     and then the counsel for each of the two accused, if they wish, would

15     have questions themselves of you.

16             The Prosecution would then have an opportunity to ask you

17     questions again, and the Chamber, if it considers it appropriate, arising

18     out of those comments, would -- may itself have questions of you.

19             You are -- it is expected that your testimony would extend over

20     the next three days, and the hours of sitting at the Tribunal are

21     essentially four hours per day, with two 20-minute breaks during those

22     four hours.

23             The -- I would not invite counsel for the Prosecution,

24     Ms. Korner, to begin her examination-in-chief.

25             MS. KORNER:  I'm just -- Your Honour, he did take the oath, did

Page 6619

 1     he, Your Honours?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             MS. KORNER:  He did.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

 5        Q.   Mr. Borovcanin, I want to deal, first of all, with how you come

 6     to be a witness in the case.

 7             I think you were interviewed on the 14th of August, 2007; is that

 8     right?

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   As a witness.

11        A.   As a witness.

12        Q.   And during the course of that interview, did you give replies to

13     the investigator's questions?

14        A.   Yes, I did give replies to the questions.

15        Q.   Yesterday -- I think you arrived in The Hague on Saturday

16     evening.  Did you spend two hours yesterday morning with Mr. Cvijetic and

17     another of the Defence lawyers?

18        A.   I spent a certain amount of time with them.  I'm not sure whether

19     it was exactly two hours.  I wasn't really paying that much attention but

20     it could be right.

21        Q.   And apart from Mr. Cvijetic, was it Mr. Krgovic who was present?

22     The gentleman sitting behind you -- over there?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then yesterday evening, did you spend a further - I think you

25     told the investigator this morning - two hours with Mr. Cvijetic?

Page 6620

 1        A.   That would be it roughly because we were supposed to meet at

 2     1700 hours and then we spent a bit more time before that with our

 3     colleagues, the investigators of the OTP, and then we met up at the

 4     hotel, and then we talked roughly about that same amount of time.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now can we deal with your background, just in a short

 6     period of time, please.

 7             In fact -- I'm sorry, there's one other question.

 8             In fact, by the time you spoke to the investigators in August of

 9     2007, had you already been contacted by lawyers or investigators

10     representing Mico Stanisic?

11        A.   Not until then, never.

12        Q.   Before you were interviewed by the OTP, didn't you tell them in

13     interview that you had been contacted indirectly and unofficially, as you

14     put it, by people representing Mico Stanisic?

15        A.   Yes.  But that was over the telephone.  I thought that your

16     question pertained to direct contacts.  Over the telephone they did ask

17     me whether I wanted to be a Defence witness.  I remained ambiguous on

18     that, as the interview says.  I said give me time to think about it.  I

19     said neither yes nor no.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  Well, now let's move very

21     briefly, please, to your background.

22             Is it right - you told the Judges when you were born - that you

23     started work for the MUP in the mid-1970s, around 1975?

24        A.   March 1974, that's when I started working for the Ministry of the

25     Interior.

Page 6621

 1             At that time what was organised was a type of seminar or course,

 2     lasting five or six months, and so on.

 3        Q.   Yes, I was leaving out your training.  Actual -- all right.  But

 4     March 1974, and did you start work in the -- the cities of Sarajevo SUP?

 5        A.   After completing the course, yes.  Yes.  Relatively short period

 6     of time.

 7        Q.   Then did you work as a republic inspector?

 8        A.   After that, no.  After that, I was transferred from the SUP of

 9     the city of Sarajevo, as it was called at the time, to the Republican

10     Secretariat of the Interior.  That was the top institution of that kind

11     in the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   I'm sorry, then I missed a part out, or the interview did.

13             Did you, however, work as an inspector of police stations from

14     about 1985?

15        A.   Yes.  I was in that line of work for a few years.  Four years,

16     was it?  Perhaps a bit more than that.  I really cannot remember because

17     after that I was moved to another job, and so on.

18        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Well, let's -- I tell you what, let's leave out

19     your other jobs because I don't know that they are particularly relevant.

20             But by 1991, were you appointed as chief of the operational duty

21     in the CSB in Sarajevo?

22        A.   Sometime during that period, I was commander of the company for

23     providing security for high-ranking persons, and then I was moved to the

24     centre of Security Services in Sarajevo, and I was in charge of duty

25     operations.

Page 6622

 1        Q.   Right.  Now, can you tell us what that job entailed, being in

 2     charge of the duty operations?

 3        A.   Well, you see, this is an operative position where people worked

 4     in shifts.  That is to say, we worked night shifts as well.  There were

 5     five of us who took turns there.  The work itself meant that we monitored

 6     security-related developments in the area of the centre of security that

 7     we worked in at that time.

 8        Q.   All right.  Where was the CSB located in 1991?

 9        A.   The CSB was located in the old part of Sarajevo, if I can put it

10     that way.  The street was Augusta Cesarca.  We worked in that particular

11     building and, of course, the other services were there too.

12        Q.   That's the next question I wanted to ask you.

13             Which other services were in that building?

14        A.   I know that when the CSB was founded, we entered the building

15     where the SUP of the city of Sarajevo had operated until then.

16             I cannot tell you exactly on which basis offices were allocated

17     to different services and departments.  I know that our offices were on

18     the ground floor, just like the communications people.  And then there

19     was the first floor and the second floor, where the city officials were.

20        Q.   So in the same building was also the -- if you like, the -- the

21     SUP of Sarajevo, the city of Sarajevo?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  I'm not sure whether all the services could have been

23     there.  Perhaps some of them were elsewhere too.  Quite simply, I have

24     forgotten by now, so I cannot give you a full answer to your question,

25     but I know that part of it was there, yes.

Page 6623

 1        Q.   Now we know that in 1991, Mico Stanisic was appointed as

 2     secretary to the SUP of the city of Sarajevo.  Did you ever meet him

 3     during the 1991 period?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What was the position of secretary of the SUP?  In the hierarchy

 6     of the SUP, if I can put it that way.

 7        A.   Well, as for the city SUP itself, that was the top person, yes.

 8     Perhaps top manager would be the right word.  In the city SUP.

 9        Q.   All right.  And would the top person in the city SUP be reporting

10     directly to the minister, or the assistant minister, or would he

11     reporting to the chief of the CSB?

12        A.   I was asked that earlier on.  I was asked that by you too, in

13     part.  I just know that the republican SUP was the top institution, and I

14     thought the communications with them were more frequent, and it was their

15     duty to report to them.

16             As for the CSB, I don't think that we exchanged information in

17     the course of our official duties, ex officio.  For example, that they

18     were duty-bound to report to us about something, but, at any rate, there

19     was cooperation.

20        Q.   All right.  So you say you never met Mico Stanisic in 1991.  Did

21     you meet him before he came minister of the interior of the Serbian

22     republic?

23        A.   No.  Until he was appointed minister of the interior of the

24     Republika Srpska, I never had occasion to.

25        Q.   Did you remain as chief of the operation in the CSB in Sarajevo

Page 6624

 1     until after the conflict started in April 1992?

 2        A.   Until then, yes.

 3        Q.   Once the conflict started, and after the split in the MUP, where

 4     did you go?

 5        A.   Well, I would need some time to explain this.

 6        Q.   If you can do it fairly shortly that would be a help.

 7        A.   I'll try.

 8             So, I was working in that CSB, in the operations duty service,

 9     and, of course, all sorts of information was coming in from all sides,

10     and there was a psychosis, a fear reigning in town.  People were forming

11     various groups and it was very still among my colleagues.  Nobody

12     wanted -- seemed to want to open this Pandora's box.  And then in April,

13     that means before the war started, it one of the night shifts, I believe

14     it was the last night shift, a group of armed men who we didn't know

15     burst in.  They had automatic guns.  I was taken aback, afraid, and

16     asked, Who are you?  And they said, We are the ones asking questions

17     here.  They were wearing uniforms and on the shoulder of one of them I

18     saw the lettering, "Patriotic League," and that was a message to me.  We

19     had automatic weapons ourselves handy in the service, but it would have

20     been stupid to try anything.

21             It was a message to me and my colleagues that things were going

22     haywire.

23        Q.   Well, sorry.  I don't quite follow this.  They burst in, said

24     they were the Patriotic League.  What happened then?  Did they take over

25     the CSB?

Page 6625

 1        A.   They did not say they were members of the Patriotic League.  I

 2     just noticed "Patriotic League" written on a shoulder patch.  And when I

 3     asked who they were, they simply said, We are the ones asking questions

 4     here.

 5             They went upstairs to the communication centres while we were

 6     left downstairs.  I can't say that we were disarmed completely but it

 7     would have been stupid to do anything, to try to get hold of our weapons,

 8     because they were -- they looked rather serious and very intimidating.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Borovcanin.  I'm still trying to understand.  Are

10     you saying at that stage you were all expelled from the CSB or that these

11     men simply came in, went upstairs and then left again?

12        A.   They just passed through the building.  How long they were inside

13     and what they were doing, I couldn't see because they were upstairs.  But

14     they did go to the communication centre, which means that they had a good

15     reason.

16        Q.   All right.  And did they then -- after they had been to the

17     communication centre, did they leave or did you leave?

18        A.   No.  The communication centre was upstairs.  We remained in our

19     offices, myself, the junior operations duty officer, and the signalsmen

20     who were working in our department.  Nobody left the office.

21             These people stayed upstairs in the building for a while.

22     They -- I don't know what they were doing there.  Then they went

23     downstairs, got into their cars and were gone.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That's all that I was trying to get at.  All right.

25     So -- all right -- yes.

Page 6626

 1        A.   I'm sorry.

 2        Q.   Can we then move to -- you actually then did leave, did you not,

 3     the CSB in Sarajevo, because there was, at that stage, a Serbian MUP, as

 4     apart from the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, wasn't there?

 5        A.   I don't know of any Serbian MUP in that period.  That's -- this

 6     is the first time I hear of it, from you.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   But let me go to back what you just said a moment ago.  Very soon

 9     afterwards we had a working meeting with the leader in the centre,

10     Mr. Bakir Alispahic, and I raised the question, Who were these people who

11     burst in on us?  What kind of police are we?  I believe that everyone in

12     my place would have considered that a huge problem and raised it at the

13     first possible meeting.  And he told me, I'm surprised to hear these

14     words from you as a police officer.  They are members of the reserve

15     force of the state security.  I was not naive enough to believe that but

16     I understood the message, and the message was that I was no longer secure

17     in my workplace.

18        Q.   Just pause there, please, Mr. Borovcanin.  And, if necessary, I'm

19     sure the Defence will ask you further questions about all of this.

20             You just said you were unaware of the split in the MUP.  Are you

21     telling us that you didn't know about the telegram that Mr. Mandic had

22     sent on 31st of March, making -- which made it clear that there was now a

23     Serbian MUP in Bosnia as well as the old republic MUP?

24        A.   That document, the dispatch was not known to me at the time.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, let's forget about whether you knew about the

Page 6627

 1     split or not.  Is it right that you left the Sarajevo CSB and

 2     transferred, if we can put it that way, to the -- the Republika Srpska

 3     MUP?

 4        A.   We seem to have skipped a short period.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   I returned to my apartment in the neighbourhood of the Mojmilo

 7     and then came the meeting that I just mentioned, when I asked

 8     Mr. Alispahic that question.  But before that there is one incident that

 9     I should --

10        Q.   No, no --

11        A.    -- tell you about here for the sake of completeness --

12        Q.   Mr. Borovcanin -- yes --

13        A.   -- and the truth.

14        Q.   All right.  If you are -- if you -- if this incident you want to

15     tell us is relevant to you leaving the MUP of Bosnia and going to the

16     RS MUP, then, by all means do so.  But only if it is relevant to that.

17        A.   Certainly, it's relevant.

18             I got into my own car.  I went to the meeting.  And then at an

19     intersection in the neighbourhood of Mojmilo I was intercepted by

20     strangers, armed, who asked for my ID.  They opened my boot, asked me who

21     I was.  I showed them my ID.  I said I was a member of the MUP and they

22     asked to see my weapons.

23             Before that there had been several cases already when policemen

24     were disarmed in a similar way, and therefore I said I had no weapons on

25     me because if I had said otherwise, they would have disarmed me.  They

Page 6628

 1     were certainly criminals.  I said the weapon is in my office.  And they

 2     looked very disappointed that they hadn't got anything off me.  And I was

 3     allowed to go on my way.

 4             And that was the second incident that was a warning to me that I

 5     was unsafe and that I should worry about the safety of my family.  Let me

 6     not even mention that there was fire opened at the windows of my

 7     apartment.  I had many concerns for my safety.

 8        Q.   Okay, Mr. Borovcanin.  I understand your concerns for your

 9     safety.  All I want to do is to get you, metaphorically speaking, to the

10     time when you began work for the Serbian CSB.

11             Did you begin -- were you appointed to work in the CSB, the

12     Serbian CSB of Sarajevo which was called the Romanija-Birac CSB?

13        A.   Not immediately.  Because, you see, large numbers of Serbs were

14     leaving Sarajevo at the time.  Anyone who had family elsewhere or family

15     estates went there, to safer places.  And sometime in April, I too went

16     to my birth place, stayed there for two or three days, watching

17     television carefully and reading newspapers to keep abreast of what was

18     going on, and then I decided to go to the police station in Pale

19     because - and you have to try to understand this - it was a time when any

20     Serb fit to serve in the army who had failed to report to the MUP or the

21     military department would be stigmatised, or at least looked down upon.

22        Q.   Mr. Borovcanin, I said to you, did I not, something like two

23     hours ago that I had limited time to take you in evidence and that it

24     would help if you just answer my question and don't volunteer

25     information.

Page 6629

 1             Did you start work in around May of 1992 for the CSB, the Serbian

 2     CSB, of Sarajevo?

 3        A.   I'll try to be brief.

 4             After reporting to the Pale police, we headed for Vrace.  At that

 5     time, they were in the process of establishing the Security Services

 6     Centre because everything was done on a shoestring, you understand.  And

 7     for several days I worked as inspector in that centre, which was only in

 8     the process of being established.

 9        Q.   All right.  However, in May of 1992, did you start work -- I'm

10     sorry.  Were you appointed to the CSB, Serbian CSB, of Sarajevo?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Right.  And your job was as what, please?

13        A.   I just said a moment ago.  At the beginning, all the work that an

14     inspector normally does, and that's the work I did at the time, implied

15     touring police stations on the ground, getting insight into their work

16     and performance, et cetera.

17        Q.   Did you in fact become the chief of administration within the

18     CSB?

19        A.   Well, after working as an inspector for I don't know how long,

20     maybe a month, maybe less, I can't remember the date when I was appointed

21     chief of police at the Security Services Centre.  It could have been end

22     May, or early June.  I can't be precise.

23        Q.   And whereabouts was the Serbian CSB based for the city of

24     Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes, for a short while, in Vrace.  But when snipers started

Page 6630

 1     targeting us, we realised we were not safe and we relocated to Lukavica,

 2     which is in the eastern part of Sarajevo, opposite the science and

 3     mathematical faculty.

 4        Q.   And you told us it was also in Vrace.  Is that where the police

 5     school was?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can you just look, please, briefly, if there is no

 8     objection from the Defence, to a map of Sarajevo.

 9             MS. KORNER:  This wasn't in our 65 ter list.  No.  Thank you.

10     That's 10282.

11             It's in e-court.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   All right.  Now -- I can't see the darn thing.

15             Okay.  I think if we look towards the bottom of the map, we can

16     see Lukavica, is that right, with sort of purple buildings?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And if we go -- I don't know if somebody's attempting to do

19     something with the cursor, but it's -- it's in the middle of the map.

20     Yeah.

21        A.   Yes, I can see it, purple buildings.  I believe those was

22     administrations of Energoinvest, the intersection.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

24        A.   Yes, to make a long story short.

25        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Now, can you tell us, can we see Vrace on the

Page 6631

 1     map?

 2        A.   Well, we should follow the road, the yellow road.

 3             Could you zoom out again?

 4             Vrace is not far from there.

 5        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Borovcanin.  If you touch the screen it zooms around.

 6             So if you can indicate, just by touching the screen, if we can

 7     see Vrace, which I think we can, but I have lost it myself.

 8        A.   All right, I'm sorry.

 9             Well, around here somewhere.  You see the road leading from the

10     Energoinvest company to the intersection.  And then follow that road

11     to the right.  And this overpass leading to the centre of the city,

12     that's -- that's Vrace.

13        Q.   All right.  So that was in the hills; is that right?

14        A.   It's not really a hill.  It's a kind of saddle-shaped area that

15     that separates Lukavica from the eastern part of Sarajevo.  It

16     stretches -- this area stretches almost all the way to the Mojmilo

17     neighbourhood.  It is perhaps one kilometre, two kilometres long, this

18     saddle-shaped area that separates the urban part from the less populated

19     part called Lukavica.

20        Q.   All right.  I think that's all we need for the moment.  Thank you

21     very much, sir.

22             Next --

23             MS. KORNER:  I don't know where we are on the break.  I'm always

24     unclear.

25             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated].

Page 6632

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, then I think if we can take it now, because I

 2     want him to look at the -- the chart.

 3             Oh, yes, Your Honours, may I ask that that map now become an

 4     exhibit.  I don't think there's any objection.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P986, Your Honour.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, it is not objection, but I

 9     really don't see the purpose of this map.  Maybe it will be better after

10     the break for witness to -- to show or to put some marks or --

11     otherwise --

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, he has explained where Lukavica -- but I

13     suppose it might help if he marked it.  Perhaps he can do that now before

14     it goes off the screen.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  I mean, we know where it is but for the sake of

16     Trial Chamber maybe it would be fair to --

17             MS. KORNER:  There is always the site visit, Mr. Pantelic.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, we are working on it.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   Sir, could you take a pen and just mark, first of all, Lukavica,

22     and then Vrace.

23             MS. KORNER:  The map needs to be shrunk again.  It's in -- I'm

24     sorry, it's now too close.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mm-hm.

Page 6633

 1             MS. KORNER:  Now, it is still not showing Lukavica.  It is still

 2     not showing Lukavica.  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated] ... needs to be

 4     lowered.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it now.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   Just draw a circle, first of all, around Lukavica, and mark

 8     that 1.

 9        A.   Oh ...

10        Q.   And now could you show us where Vrace is.  Let's just put 1 --

11     yes, thank you.

12        A.   Right.  Just a second.  This road -- this area here.  Roughly

13     this area.  This is the -- these are the narrow confines of Vrace.

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   Short of crossed by -- by the road that leads to Grbavica.

16     That's the urban part of the city.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honour, in fact if one focuses in, one

18     can just see -- under the line he has drawn you can actually see the

19     name.

20             Right.  Does that need to be given a separate exhibit number?  It

21     probably does.  Yes, please.  Thank you.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the annotated map will be

23     Exhibit P987.

24             MS. KORNER:  That's it, Your Honour.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

25     time for the break.

Page 6634

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we take the break now and return in

 2     20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... in connection with

 8     what I was saying about the witness, we had a -- an e-mail from the

 9     Witness and Victims Unit saying that the witness, last night, was

10     exhausted and stressed.  I did ask him today whether he felt all right to

11     go on and he said yes.  But I'm wondering whether Your Honours may think

12     it's right to perhaps cut things a little bit short today and perhaps

13     give your rulings at the end of the session.  I think he really did have

14     too much yesterday.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Would it helpful if we were to inquire directly with

16     the witness as to what his --

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour may but it may well be that he feels

18     that it is a matter of honour that you don't say you feel tired.

19             Your Honour, I should add that I was -- entirely my fault, I was

20     unaware of it, but someone who was aware of it -- there is in fact an

21     order directed only to Stanisic dating back to 2005 saying they must not

22     contact witnesses, Prosecution witnesses without written notice to us

23     first.  And, of course, it doesn't apply to Zupljanin, because he wasn't

24     there.

25             So -- and can I say straightaway, I don't want to suggest that in

Page 6635

 1     any way Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Pantelic were behaving improperly.  I'm simply

 2     saying that, as a matter of reality, being contacted like that can be

 3     pressure and may comprise the witness's feeling of security.

 4             Anyhow, but, Your Honours, perhaps if we could deal with all

 5     these matters at the end of the day which would give the witness perhaps

 6     a chance not to have to go on to 7.00.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  May I have the assistance of counsel in terms of

 8     your last suggestion.  We ordinarily would -- the -- well, we're starting

 9     the 4.00 part of the session late for reasons that I will explain

10     shortly.  But we would go -- we would ordinarily go to 5.20 and then

11     resume at 5.40 to 7.00.  Is there a suggestion as to what time we should

12     release the witness?

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I was thinking if we could -- I don't

14     know whether we have to take the break at -- was it --

15             JUDGE HALL:  5.20.

16             MS. KORNER:  I mean that would be -- but if we could sort of

17     carry on till, say, quarter to 6.00.  You see, he was with us this

18     morning because he hadn't --

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  I'm -- I'm aware of the problem that you're

20     trying to identify.

21             So you're suggesting that we go to, say, 5.45 --

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

23             JUDGE HALL:  -- and then release him.

24             MS. KORNER:  And then release him and deal with whatever matters

25     are -- there are to deal with.  If that's satisfactory to Your Honours.

Page 6636

 1             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated].

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, yeah.  Everything is fine with us, of

 3     course.

 4             Just a few words in response to Ms. Korner, her submission on

 5     page 34, line 21 to 25.  It is a well-known fact that we have certain

 6     impressions from Prosecution witnesses, so-called insiders, that they

 7     were pressed by -- I would say strange approach by Prosecution to them,

 8     considering them as suspects.  And we have a numerous facts with that

 9     regard, that they were under stress during this -- giving statement to

10     OTP -- to Office of the Prosecutor, and that I believe this practice,

11     although we are now almost near the exit strategy, will not happen again.

12             But, again, we are going to ask a number of witnesses with regard

13     to their personal feelings when they were summoned as suspect, and then,

14     during the statement, they're changed status, et cetera, et cetera.

15             So in practice is also, I would say, of certain importance, to

16     be -- think about.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.

18             So we will have the -- if the usher will escort the witness back

19     to the stand, and I will deal with these -- our views on the three

20     matters raised by Ms. Korner when the witness would be released at 5.45.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE HALL:  If I may, Ms. Korner.

23             Sir, I would have explained to you when you began your evidence

24     as to the sequence in which matters would go.  One of the things that I

25     would have said that trials are fairly standard all over the world, and

Page 6637

 1     one of the standard features of trials all over the world is that the

 2     flow of evidence is often interrupted by a Court having to deal with

 3     procedural matters, and that is one of the reasons why the break that we

 4     took a while ago has been somewhat extended.  Now that we are back on

 5     track, the rest of the day will proceed as follows.

 6             Ms. Korner will resume her examination-in-chief of you now.  It's

 7     5 -- it's now 4.36, and at 5.45, which will be in an hour and roughly

 8     ten minutes, you would be excused as a witness for the remainder of day,

 9     with the direction to return here tomorrow morning for 9.00.

10             Thank you, Ms. Korner.

11             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Borovcanin, we'd reached the stage where you were the chief

13     of police administration in the Sarajevo CSB, the Serbian Sarajevo CSB.

14             Could you have a look, please, on the screen again, I'm sorry, at

15     P -- Exhibit P879, which you had a chance to have a look at this morning.

16        A.   I cannot see anything on my screen yet.

17        Q.   It's going to take a little bit of time.

18        A.   [In English] Okay, okay.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, if you have got your folders with you,

20     it's the CSB Romanija-Birac.  Sorry ...

21             JUDGE HALL:  Page ...

22             MS. KORNER:  Page 8.

23             We've had this problem before.  It won't turn the right way up,

24     will it?

25             All right.  Can I -- can we put this on Sanction?  ELMO, sorry.

Page 6638

 1     Not Sanction.

 2             Oh, you can turn it now apparently.  No?  Okay.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation].

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   Well, I'll look at it upside down, Mr. Borovcanin.

 8             We can see there a basic chart of the CSB in Sarajevo, and the

 9     chief was a man named, strangely enough, Zoran Cvijetic.  I don't know if

10     it is any relation.  I'm not going ask either.

11             Can you tell us, because all we can see underneath that is the

12     SJB chiefs who would report to him, in the hierarchy of the CSB, where

13     would you be?

14        A.   I beg your pardon.  I have a bit of a throat problem.  I seem to

15     be catching a cold.

16             Mr. Cvijetic was head of the centre, and within the centre there

17     were several organisational units but, inter alia, the police,

18     "odeljenje" not "uprava," and then there was the department -- the crime

19     department, then also the communications department, the legal

20     administrative department, et cetera.

21             However, in that hierarchy we were all equals, the heads of

22     departments.  On this ladder, we were all this -- at the same level.  For

23     example, there was the chief of the crime prevention police and then I

24     was head of the uniform police, but we were all at the same level, if I

25     can put it that way.

Page 6639

 1        Q.   All right.  So would have you authority to deal with the

 2     uniformed police within the SJBs?

 3        A.   Of course, in accordance with the law.

 4        Q.   And just so that we all understand it, the SJB chiefs, we've

 5     heard from numerous witnesses, would report to the chief of the CSB.  Do

 6     you agree with that?

 7        A.   Well, you see, that's the way it should be.  However, the chiefs

 8     of the SJBs were people from the local communities, from the territories

 9     of various municipalities.

10             Can I just make a brief comment?  They were sort of a bypass

11     between the local authorities and the police.  That is to say that they

12     run the public security stations in their areas and quite often, the

13     chiefs of these stations were the -- were candidates who were put forth

14     by political structures, but it is the head of the MUP that made the

15     ultimate decision.

16             As for your question, whether they were -- whether they reported

17     to the chief of the centre according to hierarchy, they were, and that is

18     in accordance with the law and with the rules of service of the police

19     and so on and so forth.

20        Q.   All right.  Was part of your job to inspect the uniformed police

21     section of the SJBs?

22        A.   They had police stations.  They did not have sections as an

23     "odeljenje."  When I speak of myself and the people who worked with me,

24     the inspectors who worked with me, our duty was to act in an instructive

25     fashion in the field, to follow the work of the head of the police

Page 6640

 1     station and the policemen as well.  We had to look into whether they

 2     implemented the law properly, that there was no abuse, whether they ran

 3     their stations appropriately, and so on and so forth.  That was our duty.

 4             From the entrance onwards, we would look at everything very

 5     carefully.  We would look at everything within the said police station

 6     very carefully.

 7        Q.   If you went down to inspect a police station, would you notify

 8     the chief of the SJB that you were going make an inspection?

 9        A.   Well, you see, bearing in mind the fact that I was in this line

10     of work before the war as well, it was customary to announce a visit of

11     that kind, for a simple reason.  We wouldn't want the local commander or

12     his associates to be absent when we are there.  They should be there, by

13     way of supervision.

14        Q.   We're going look at some of the instructions for inspectors in a

15     moment, but what I want to know is this.  Could you -- did you have the

16     authority, from your position, to give orders directly to the uniformed

17     police within the police stations, or did you have to go through the

18     chief of the SJB?

19        A.   Well, you see, my work was just part of the organisational unit

20     in the centre, as I have already said.  I could not make any orders

21     independently without previously consulting the chief of the centre who,

22     in turn, reported to the MUP about that.  Also, I could not issue orders

23     to the public security station chiefs in the field.  I could not do it

24     directly.  The procedure and the protocol involved were a well-known

25     thing.  If there is something that is of broader interest, namely that a

Page 6641

 1     particular communication should be sent to every police station, then

 2     usually that kind of information would reach the MUP, and then the chief

 3     of the centre would say, Prepare this or prepare that, on that basis.

 4     That is how things worked.  We were just part of this chain.

 5        Q.   Now we're going to see when we look at some of the reports either

 6     done by you personally or some of your inspectors that there was

 7     dissatisfaction with some of the SJBs.

 8             I want to ask you about one aspect of this.  If you discovered

 9     through your inspection that police officers had been committing crimes

10     and that the SJB chief was not doing anything, would it be your

11     obligation to report that to your superiors?

12        A.   If we had knowledge to that effect, then, yes, certainly.  After

13     all, that is our obligation according to the law.

14        Q.   Right.  I'm going to take you in a moment to some documents, but

15     one other thing.  You've told us you were not aware of the separation of

16     the MUP at the end of March, beginning of April.  Did you ever, before

17     you attended -- before you became part of the Romanija-Birac CSB, did you

18     ever attend any meetings to do with the separation of the MUPs?

19        A.   Well, you see, perhaps the terminology is not the best.  Possible

20     separation or something like that.  Perhaps the best explanation would be

21     that there was a total confusion and there was a lack of understanding of

22     the situation.

23             Stories were bandied about.  You know what it was like.  There

24     was this collective psychosis in town, and so on and so forth.  And, of

25     course, people were worried about their very own destinies.  I, for one,

Page 6642

 1     wondered what on earth was going on.  I couldn't believe what was

 2     happening, and I was in the police.

 3             Once I attended meeting - you asked me about that - at the Serbia

 4     hotel, at Ilidza.  As far as I'm concerned, I attended that meeting

 5     spontaneously.  We were playing football and then we were talking a bit

 6     and then we just sort of spontaneously said, Let's meet up and let's

 7     discuss all of this at a meeting.  The situation was very confusing in

 8     the MUP.  There were many changes, personnel changes in the MUP.  We

 9     ordinary people did not really understand that.  Every reorganisation of

10     any kind should be accompanied by legal documents but there weren't any

11     legal documents, when this separation of the MUP happened or whatever

12     term you're use.

13        Q.   All right.  I don't know what you'd call it, but do you agree

14     there was the original MUP, to which you had belonged, of the Republic of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and when you were in the CSB Romanija-Birac,

16     there was the MUP of the Serbian Republic, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   Yes.  But then two MUPs came into being.  The federal MUP and the

18     MUP of Republika Srpska.  This went hand in hand.

19        Q.   All right.  And were the -- the minister of the interior,

20     Mico Stanisic, was an ex-member of the Bosnian MUP, is that right,

21     republican MUP?

22        A.   All of us were members of the joint MUP.

23        Q.   All right.  Now, this meeting in the Hotel Serbia which, as you

24     say, you told the investigator about, give us a rough idea of, please,

25     when that was?

Page 6643

 1        A.   Well, it's possible that it was March.  I cannot tell you the

 2     exact date with any certainty.  But it must have been March.  Say

 3     mid-March?  But I'm not quite sure.

 4        Q.   All right.  And you say it was a spontaneous meeting as you were

 5     playing football.  Can I ask, how many of you attended this meeting?

 6        A.   Well, there were a few of my inspectors there, my former

 7     colleagues, because when I worked in the -- in the inspectorate of the

 8     republican SUP, we went out for recreation together, so a few of these

 9     inspectors.  And when we went down there, we found Mr. Mandic there,

10     Momo Mandic, and Cedo Kljajic, I think.  And the investigator asked me

11     whether Mr. Mico was there.  I was not sure.  I thought that he wasn't

12     there, actually, and even now I think that he wasn't there, that that is

13     more likely.  And Kovac, I don't know whether he was there or not.  But I

14     cannot say that with any degree of certainty.  I don't want to say

15     anything for sure that I'm not sure of.

16        Q.   That's Tomo Kovac you're talking about, is it?

17        A.   Yes, yes.  At that time he was, I think -- no, I don't think.  I

18     know that he was the chief of the public security station of Ilidza.

19        Q.   Are you saying -- I'm sorry -- are you saying that Momo Mandic

20     and Cedo Kljajic were playing football with you?

21        A.   Not Momo Mandic, but Cedo Kljajic was, yes.  He liked it.  He

22     would come to play football.  Other colleagues did too.  Cedo Tosic might

23     have been there as well.  I can't remember, believe me.  Dusko Ivanovic,

24     for instance.  I know that we liked to play ball.  We liked to play

25     football.

Page 6644

 1        Q.   Yes.  But then how was it that Momo Mandic turned up at this

 2     spontaneous meeting?

 3        A.   Well, somebody said that there would be a gathering of sorts

 4     there.  I did not know, I hadn't received an invitation or anything, so

 5     we went primarily out of curiosity to see what was going on.

 6        Q.   And when you got there, what was going on?

 7        A.   Well, if we look at it from a professional point of view, this

 8     really was not serious enough to be a police gathering.  Some people were

 9     standing by the bar chatting, others were sitting elsewhere, so there was

10     nothing really important.  It wasn't that there was a serious discussion

11     going on.  We were simply talking about what would happen, whether there

12     would be a war, whether there would not be a war.  Everything was sort of

13     hanging in the air, as it were.

14        Q.   You call this -- you yourself call this a meeting, so it wasn't

15     just people sitting over a drink was it?  It was a proper meeting, even

16     though you had had nobody taking minutes and no agenda.

17        A.   No.  There was no written invitation, there was nothing.  Some of

18     our colleagues said that Momo or whoever would be at the Serbia hotel and

19     let's go and see what's going on.  So it was really spontaneous.  I

20     didn't even know who would be there.  There weren't too many of us

21     anyway.  That's only meeting that I know of -- or, actually, the only one

22     that I attended, the only one of its kind.  And it remained unfinished,

23     as it were, because we did not leave it any wiser than when we had

24     arrived there actually.

25        Q.   But talking about what would happen, whether there would be a

Page 6645

 1     war, did you or didn't you discuss the departure of the Serbian members

 2     of the MUP from the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina MUP?

 3        A.   There weren't any concrete talks or concrete names.  Quite

 4     simply, solutions were being sought.  That's the way I see it.

 5     Personally I was very curious as a policeman but I could not say anything

 6     more about that.  Sometimes my neighbours wondered too.  They said,

 7     You're supposed to know about all of this.  You work for the police.  I

 8     don't know.  Well, maybe I'm just not a good policeman.  That's what I

 9     would tell them.

10        Q.   Yes, all right.  So you say there was no concrete talk or

11     concrete names but was there, if you like, a general discussion about the

12     departure of the Serbian police officers from the joint MUP?

13        A.   Not about separation but the basic message from that meeting was

14     be careful, see where your families are.  If people have a bypass of

15     sorts, if they have relatives in villages, whatever, perhaps it would be

16     a good idea to take care of your wives and children.  That is the general

17     drift of what was being said but nothing was agreed specifically at that

18     meeting.  I claim with full responsibility that no agreement was reached

19     at that meeting nor were we ordered at that meeting to do anything

20     specific.

21        Q.   Look, I will tell you one more time, Mr. Borovcanin.  You told us

22     that reasonably senior at least two police officers that can you name

23     were present at that meeting; Mandic, who was the assistant minister, and

24     Cedo Kljajic, whose position I have forgotten.  Now are you saying what

25     was discussed was your families and children?

Page 6646

 1        A.   Well, among other things, there's nothing more precious than your

 2     family, if we are to be honest.  I was very concerned about my own wife

 3     and children, like all the other colleagues, and it was not unusual to

 4     discuss it.

 5        Q.   All right.  We'll -- as you know, we're going to have a look at

 6     the minutes of the meeting of July the 11th at which you were present.

 7     Because one of the things that is referred to by Zupljanin is right at

 8     the beginning:  "It seems a long time since we met in Sarajevo ..."

 9             Was Zupljanin present at this meeting?

10        A.   You mean the meeting --

11        Q.   In the Hotel Serbia in March.

12        A.   -- in June or in July?

13        Q.   No.  Was Zupljanin present at this meeting in the Hotel Serbia in

14     March?

15        A.   Definitely not.

16        Q.   All right.  All right.  Let's move on.

17             I want you now, please, to have a look at some documents.

18             First of all, a list of instructions, which is 65 ter 2400.

19             It's -- sorry, it takes a little bit of time to come up on the

20     screen.

21             Now, this is -- it's called an inspection checklist.  You may or

22     may not have had this particular copy of this document, but were you

23     familiar with the contents, as to what had to happen on an inspection?

24        A.   Well, if you had asked me that question without the image, I

25     probably would not have remembered.  But there's nothing out of the

Page 6647

 1     ordinary here.  It's just the reminder, a checklist for inspection.  But

 2     as far as I know, in one part of the crime investigation service, you

 3     have this checklist to make sure that you sort of look at all the items

 4     when inspecting a police station.

 5        Q.   Right.  But that's what I mean, you're familiar with -- the

 6     things that -- I'll start this question again, I'm sorry.

 7             Those matters contained there, are those the standard procedures

 8     when carrying out a check?  Inspection, I'm sorry.

 9        A.   Well, you know what?  I have a lot of experience in this job, and

10     this checklist is a bit terse.  That was -- it was scant.  At the

11     beginning, we did not have all the prerequisites well established, such

12     as records, logistics and all the things that you need to do your work

13     properly.  This reminder, this checklist, was developed by experienced

14     people but it's not quite complete.

15        Q.   All right.

16        A.   A police checklist would have been much -- much more complete.

17        Q.   Well, this is apparently a police checklist.  Do you mean your

18     own checklist?

19        A.   No.  No, that's not in dispute.  This is an inspection checklist.

20     That's true.  I just mean to say that this is more in the line of work of

21     the crime investigation service.  If you look at all the set of items

22     that need to be looked into.

23        Q.   Yes, I see.  I'm with you.  All right.

24             The only other thing I want to point out, if you go, please, in

25     English, to the second page, and also in the B/C/S version.

Page 6648

 1             "Upon completion of the inspection, a written report is to be

 2     compiled based on the situation found, with positive qualities ...

 3     failures noted, and measures and instructions recommended ..."

 4             Again, was that a -- sorry?

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can I just finish this question.

 7        Q.   Was that a standard procedure?  That's all I want to know.

 8     Please, just yes or no.  And then we'll deal with Mr. Pantelic's

 9     correction.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I was just informed by Ms. Savic

12     that actually the English translation of that particular document, the

13     heading is not corresponding to B/C/S version.  So maybe we could hear

14     from witness what is the exact title of B/C/S version of that document

15     and then we could later on ask interpreter service to make corrections.

16             MS. KORNER:  Okay.

17        Q.   Can we go back to page 1 in B/C/S and could you just read out

18     the -- what it actually says there in Serbian language and then we'll get

19     an interpretation.

20             Sorry, Mr. Borovcanin, can you just read out what it says there,

21     at the top of this document.

22        A.   All right.  Reminder for instructive supervision.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this is a literal

24     translation.  The translation provided in English is very reasonable.

25             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  Yes, thank you, Ms. Savic.  Thank you

Page 6649

 1     very much.  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P988, Your Honour.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Maybe for identification at this stage and then if

 5     official translation will rectify this, the title or ...

 6             MS. KORNER:  I heard the interpreter say that was a reasonable

 7     interpretation, through my earphones, the way it's been translated into

 8     English.

 9             MS. SAVIC:  [Microphone not activated].

10             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I cannot see any reason to have

11     it retranslated.  It's pretty obvious what it is, whatever it is headed.

12             JUDGE HALL:  I myself wouldn't have seen a difference.  But

13     the -- in any event, Mr. Pantelic's reservation about it being exhibited

14     at this point, whatever it is called, it's the essence of the document on

15     which the Prosecution is relying, so I see no problem with it being

16     exhibited.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, Mr. Pantelic, what is the inference that you

18     would wish to draw from the possible difference in the --

19             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, Your Honour, I really don't want to -- to

20     sort of split hair but it's just my suggestion that maybe this -- this

21     translation should be corrected, or if it is okay, at this stage I don't

22     have any problem with it at all.  It is up to our interpreters and the

23     translation unit.

24             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I mean, Your Honours have

25     admitted it and marked it now so -- as Your Honours rightly say, it is

Page 6650

 1     the content I'm concerned with, not the title.

 2        Q.   We're going to look at some of the inspections, as I say, you

 3     carried out, but to keep this chronological, I'm going ask you to look at

 4     the minutes of the meeting of the 11th of July in Belgrade.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Which is P160, please.

 6             Actually, I'm sorry, I've made a mistake, sorry, because if I

 7     keep it chronological, there's an earlier document.

 8        Q.   Could you look, please, at document which is 65 ter 397, which is

 9     a report, which is an inspection.

10             This, I think, if we look at the last page in both English and

11     B/C/S, it's three page -- third page in B/C/S and fourth page in English,

12     this is a report done by you.

13             Is that your signature?

14        A.   That's correct.  Myself and my colleague, Milomir Orasanin.

15        Q.   So if we go back, please, to the second page both in the English

16     and B/C/S - and we need to go down a bit, yeah, thank you - 27th and

17     28th of May.  At that stage you're still an inspector.  Is that right?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   And you inspect Vogosca and Ilijas SJB.  And you say:  "In the

20     area of" -- one, two, third paragraph under Vogosca:

21             "In the area of the station, there are two main check-points

22     controlled by employees of the police station, while the secondary

23     entrances into town are being controlled by the Serbian Territorial

24     Defence."

25             Who did you mean by "the Serbian Territorial Defence"?  Are we

Page 6651

 1     talking about army or paramilitary or what?

 2        A.   The army, definitely.  The Territorial Defence is part of the

 3     armed forces.  It was, in the former Yugoslavia.  And it was still, when

 4     the army of the Republika Srpska was established.  The Territorial

 5     Defence was then part of the armed forces.

 6        Q.   And then you point out that there are personnel issues which we

 7     needn't trouble you with, and you propose various appointments.

 8             You --

 9             MS. KORNER:  I think we need to go, sorry, to the third page in

10     English, and still the second page in B/C/S.  Yeah.

11        Q.   You actually propose people there.  So you had the authority, did

12     you, to suggest appointments, even though the appointments had to be made

13     by the minister?

14        A.   You said it right.  We were just proposing, and the decision was

15     made by the minister.  That is, the head of centre, with the approval of

16     the minister.

17        Q.   All right.  Now, on Ilijas, I just want to ask you about one

18     matter.  It's on the last page in the B/C/S and in the English.

19             Again, there are problems, but you say:

20             "A small unit for special purposes has been established in the

21     police station.  It was stressed that it had equipment shortages in

22     armour."

23             Was this a special police unit?

24        A.   At that time, and these were the early days, if we're looking at

25     the Ilijas municipality, which was, militarily speaking, inside a

Page 6652

 1     horseshoe, there were very frequent exchanges of fire.  And in that

 2     period, one of those young men, unfortunately dead now, was a member of

 3     the special detachment of the republic SUP and since he happened to be

 4     there, during the war he organised this small unit of young men, simply

 5     like some assault task force to defend this immediate area, the citizens,

 6     the neighbourhood.  It was a spontaneous move without any orders from

 7     above.  People were making decisions as they went, played it by the ear,

 8     decisions that they thought right for the moment.

 9        Q.   All right.  But this shouldn't have happened, should it, without

10     an order, from what you're saying?

11        A.   I would agree with you completely, if we had been able to make at

12     least a telephone call to Vogosca and other stations at the time, let

13     alone other communications.  It was simply impossible to go somewhere for

14     an inspection.  I myself was targeted by target -- by sniper fire at

15     least three or four times.

16        Q.   Yes, we're going to come onto communications as a separate topic,

17     but I -- I'm sorry.  This was something that you had to report because it

18     was a breach of -- of police orders, wasn't it?

19        A.   I don't understand why it would be a violation.  It was a part of

20     the police reserve, whereas special units, as you call them, were made up

21     of young people.  It was a mix of active duty and the reserve force.  But

22     reservists normally served at police stations even before the war.

23        Q.   Yes, but I thought we -- I'm sorry.  We seem to be going

24     backwards now.  I thought we'd agreed that you needed an order before you

25     could set up a special purposes unit and that didn't happen.  I'm simply

Page 6653

 1     asking you whether you the reason you reported that to your superiors was

 2     because it shouldn't have happened without an order?

 3        A.   I can't agree with you on this.  The real answer is that we were

 4     unable to inform them.  How are we to report to the MUP or ask for their

 5     approval if we didn't receive any original reports?

 6             In this report, we are discussing the existing situation, and the

 7     people had organised themselves.  When I say "people," I mean the police.

 8     It was a matter of necessity, you must understand.

 9        Q.   Well, then what was the purpose of telling -- of agreeing with me

10     - and you started it - by saying that this should not have happened

11     without an order?

12        A.   And when did I say that?  When did I agree with you?  Maybe we

13     did not understand each other.

14        Q.   Well, let's clear this up.

15             What you said a minute ago - let's just go back over this -

16     was -- I asked you about this special purposes unit.

17             I asked you:  "Was this a special police unit?"

18             And you said:

19             "At that time, and they were the early days, if we're looking at

20     the Ilijas municipality, which was, militarily speaking, inside a

21     horseshoe ... and then one of those young men, unfortunately now dead,

22     was a member of the special detachment of the SUP ... he happened to be

23     there ... he organised a small unit of young men ... it was a spontaneous

24     move without any orders from above."

25             And I then -- I then put to you or asked you:

Page 6654

 1             "That shouldn't have happened," not there" which is what is

 2     recorded in the transcript, "should it, without an order, from what you

 3     are saying?"

 4             "I would agree with you completely, if we had been able to make

 5     at least a telephone to Vogosca," and so on.

 6             Now, do you agree -- sorry.  I thought you were saying, as we've

 7     understood it, you cannot set up a Special Police unit without an order

 8     either from the CSB chief or above.

 9             Now, is that right?

10        A.   Well, I'll try to be clearer now.

11             If we had been able to communicate with them and if they had been

12     able to ask us, Are you intending to do this and that?  Of course, we

13     would have asked for their approval.  But I'm repeating again.  We could

14     not have obtained approval from the ministry or the centre if we had no

15     such knowledge.  We did not have any knowledge that this unit had been

16     established until my colleague and I arrived on the spot.  That's a fact.

17     I'm not denying that communications were working but I'm not deciding the

18     rest.  The rest is on a higher level.

19        Q.   Yes, all right.  Well, tell me if this is right, so we all sing

20     from the same hymn sheet.

21             You didn't know that the Special Police unit had been established

22     until you went to do your inspection?

23        A.   That's true.

24        Q.   All right.  You should -- or somebody in the CSB should have

25     known about it, if the proper procedures were being followed.  Is that

Page 6655

 1     right?

 2        A.   You see, MUP was -- is -- was in the process of organising

 3     itself.  Those were the early days.  Please try to understand that.  How

 4     were we to take preventive steps before this unit was formed if we had no

 5     communication with them?  That is the point.  And this applies not only

 6     to that station.  There will be -- we'll come back to this.  I believe

 7     there will be other questions.

 8        Q.   What was -- you could get to Ilijas to make this inspection.

 9     What was to prevent Ilijas seeking permission?  Or the chief in Ilijas.

10        A.   Maybe he could have gotten into his car and come.  But there was

11     another aspect.  The exchanges of fire happened every day.  That's maybe

12     one thing that you keep overlooking.  This police station was in a

13     war-affected zone.  Maybe policemen had no time for things like that.  It

14     was May.  Only later, when the system was in place and when the

15     communications were safer, were we able to visit each other.

16        Q.   All right.  I think we've done this topic to death.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we just go to the front page again of both, the

18     first page.

19        Q.   Handwritten at the top is:  "For the chief, Milos Zuban."

20             Do you know whose writing that is?

21        A.   I don't know whose handwriting it is.

22        Q.   And just tell the Court, who was Milos Zuban?

23        A.   Milos Zuban was, at that time, at the seat of THE MUP in

24     Bijeljina.  And if my memory serves me well, I think he was either chief

25     of the police administration or perhaps a head of one department within

Page 6656

 1     the police administration.  There was a sort of musical chairs game going

 2     on, so I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, can we move on to what is the next

 4     document in time that I want to show you and that is the minutes of the

 5     meeting of the 11th of July, P160.

 6             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I should have asked -- can

 7     I please have that admitted.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P989, Your Honour.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Now, this meeting you did attend, because we'll see your name

13     later on.

14             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honour, I'm just looking at my note.

15        Q.   If we go, please, to page -- just to identify your presence ...

16             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  In the English, it's page - oh, golly - 16.

17     And in the B/C/S, all I can say is ... I can't say very much.  I'm told

18     it's got the ERN number at the top, 1869, but I don't know that can be

19     right.  Sorry, I asked somebody to -- because I can't read Cyrillic,

20     Your Honour, I asked somebody to mark it up, and I'm not sure it has been

21     marked up.

22             Can we have 1865 at the top, I think.

23        Q.   Is that you?  I haven't the faintest idea.  Is that you, sir?  Is

24     that you, Mr. Borovcanin, we see on that page?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6657

 1        Q.   Okay.  All right.  I want do go back, please, and now that we've

 2     identified you being there, to the beginning when Stojan Zupljanin spoke,

 3     and this is what I was referring to.

 4             MS. KORNER:  In English, it's page 5 of 29 at the bottom.  And in

 5     B/C/S, it's the fourth -- fifth page.  B/C/S, Cyrillic.

 6        Q.   All right.  Mr. Zupljanin -- first of all, as Mico Stanisic was

 7     there, do you know why Stojan Zupljanin opened the meeting?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  It's not usual that somebody except that the

 9     minister should open it, but I can't think of a reason.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

11     ...

12             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I'm sorry, I don't know what the objection

13     is.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's misleading.  It's misleading because

15     Mico Stanisic opened this meeting, not Stojan Zupljanin.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   The question should been:  Do you know why he spoke first,

18     Stojan Zupljanin?

19        A.   I don't see anything unusual there.  This is a flexible approach

20     to a meeting in general.  Maybe the minister wanted to hear everyone out

21     and then to make a summary at the end.  That would be customary too.

22        Q.   As I said, he starts off by saying:

23             "It has been a long time since the last meeting in Sarajevo and a

24     lot of things have changed ... then."

25             Do you know to what meeting in Sarajevo he was referring?

Page 6658

 1        A.   Are you talking about Mr. Stanisic?

 2        Q.   No, I'm talking about Stojan Zupljanin.  In front of you it has

 3     Stojan Zupljanin's speech and it begins:

 4             "It has been a long time since the last meeting in Sarajevo and a

 5     lot of things have changed since then."

 6             Now, to what meeting in Sarajevo was he referring?  Because it's

 7     addressed to everybody who was present.

 8        A.   I don't know about that.  I really don't know about that.

 9     Probably I didn't even attend the meeting that is being mentioned here.

10        Q.   You were --

11        A.   I don't know.

12        Q.   Yes.  But you were asked to attend this meeting and you told us

13     about a meeting in the Hotel Serbia.  You have no idea to what he was

14     referring?

15        A.   I really have no idea.

16        Q.   All right.  And why was it that you were asked to attend this

17     meeting?  Because Mr. Cvijetic was there as well.

18        A.   That's right.  I assume that I would be invited to that meeting

19     because, after all, we were supposed to meet.  I repeat once again that

20     there weren't that many meetings of this kind at first, so it was an

21     opportunity for us to get to know each other, to know who was doing what,

22     and probably the top people who were in charge made an assessment, to the

23     effect that I should attend the meeting.

24        Q.   All right.  You see, the majority of the other people there

25     were -- well, actually -- no.  Don't worry about that.  I'm sorry, no.

Page 6659

 1     Forget that.

 2             Now, can we go, please, in the English to page 8 of 29, and in

 3     the B/C/S to page 5, which is 1855 at the top.

 4             This is still Zupljanin speaking.  And he is talking about the

 5     army Crisis Staff wartime Presidency demand gathering as many Muslims as

 6     possible and leave such non-defined camps to the internal affairs.  The

 7     conditions in these camps are poor.  There is no food.  Some individuals

 8     do not comply with international standards, because, among other things,

 9     the concentration centres are not appropriate.

10             Now, were you aware, from your own knowledge, by July of 1992,

11     that people were being kept in collection centres, non-Serbs, which were

12     being staffed by police officers?

13        A.   What you're asking me about is something that I first heard of at

14     that meeting when Mr. Zupljanin was speaking.  I certainly hadn't heard

15     of it before that.

16        Q.   So any inspections you had carried out or any reports had not

17     mentioned that within the area of responsibility of the CSB Sarajevo,

18     there were collection centres which were being staffed by members of the

19     MUP?

20        A.   First of all, these collection centres, as we call them, were

21     under the Army of Republika Srpska.

22             In any war, there are such population movements, these

23     demographic migrations that are very vigorous.  And, well, the centres

24     were under the Army of Republika Srpska and if sometimes the police would

25     provide security at these camps, perhaps the answer would be that there

Page 6660

 1     weren't enough men, and we were - how should I put this? - someone who

 2     would protect people at a particular locality so that nothing would

 3     happen to them.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Which facilities are you thinking of that were under the

 5     control of the army of the Republika Srpska?

 6        A.   I don't know specifically what localities they were.  When the

 7     investigator asked me about this, I said that, unfortunately, I learned

 8     of a great many things from the media.  For a long time, we were not

 9     dealing with that at all.  I mean, we couldn't follow everything,

10     25 police stations.  In these times of chaos, when communications were

11     broken off.  It was very difficult to follow other things as well.

12             However, let me say that once again, if a group of citizens would

13     appear somewhere, what could we do?  We were there possibly to take them

14     to a particular place, to protect them.  That's how I see it --

15        Q.   Yes.  But -- sorry.  You said these collection centres were under

16     the command of the army which is not what Zupljanin is saying at all.  He

17     is saying non-defined camps are being left to the police.

18             Now, in your area of responsibility, were you aware of such camps

19     or collection centres?

20        A.   At that time, most definitely not.  If -- if they existed at all,

21     and if the MUP had anything to do with them.

22        Q.   All right.  Was the -- the SJB at Pale within your area of

23     responsibility for inspections and the like?

24        A.   Yes.  When the centre was constituted.  Or, rather, when the

25     service was established, the one that I headed.  Then this was under our

Page 6661

 1     authority.  Up until then, well, I don't know.  I worked as an inspector,

 2     and I carried out inspections.  So how should I put this?  Without any

 3     particular appointment, as it were.  I was just an inspector in a centre

 4     that was still undergoing the process of its establishment.  It was still

 5     in the making.  Can you understand that?

 6        Q.   By July of 1992 your centre was established, was it not?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you ever send inspectors to Pale, or go yourself?

 9        A.   Well, you know what?  Since the police station of Pale is

10     relatively nearby, and regardless of where you wanted to go out into the

11     field, there is no way of avoiding it.  So it's on the way.  And we would

12     unofficially stop there.  And we would in this way find out about other

13     police stations that we had not known about, whether they were properly

14     organised, whether they were properly manned, et cetera.

15        Q.   All right.  I'm going ask you very briefly then to look, please,

16     at a photograph of Pale.

17             MS. KORNER:  Which is R093 -- that's the ERN.  65 ter, no idea.

18     Oh, yeah, sorry.  I can -- it's 65 ter 10278.

19             Your Honours, this is one of the photographs that was taken in

20     the sort of massive photographic sweep.

21        Q.   I think you had a chance to look at this this morning.

22             Can you just, again, using the pen that you had this morning --

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes, thanks.  That's fine.  No, no, it's the wrong

24     one.  Oh, I see, we're looking at it upside down.  Yeah, thank you.

25        Q.   Could you just indicate where the SJB was in Pale?

Page 6662

 1        A.   Just a moment, please.

 2        Q.   And if you mark that with a 1.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was there a building called the Dom Kulture?

 5        A.   Oh, yes.  This was a building where meetings were held from time

 6     to time, concerts, and the like, then dances, social gatherings.  Yes,

 7     yes, that building did exist.

 8        Q.   Could you mark that as well, please, and put a 2 by it.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever become aware of non-Serbs being detained

12     by the police from Pale in the Dom Kulture?

13        A.   I learned about that only later.  Then, no.  I had no occasion to

14     see these people or to get any direct knowledge.

15        Q.   Would the SJB in Pale, however, have been obliged to report to

16     Mr. Cvijetic that they were holding people in the Dom Kulture?

17        A.   Well, that would be according to the rules, I think.  At least

18     that's what I think, that that is it how the information should have

19     come.

20        Q.   All right.  Because it wasn't an authorised prison, was it, like

21     Kula in Sarajevo?

22        A.   No, no.  That's how I see it.  People who had fled from some war

23     zones in the area, I assume that that's it, or people who fled simply out

24     of fear from what might happen in the future.  They came there, and I

25     suppose that the police protected them, so that they could be safely

Page 6663

 1     transported to the separation line, which, later, did happen, actually.

 2        Q.   If you knew nothing about it, what makes you think that people

 3     who had fled were being placed there by the police for their own

 4     protection, as opposed to any other reason?

 5        A.   Well, you see, everyone was at a distance from these people.  The

 6     army, according to the Law on Total National Defence, was not supposed to

 7     take care of them.  Then it was easiest to give this hot potato to the

 8     police, and we simply worked on that.  We simply wanted these people to

 9     be safe and properly transported to the separation line.  That's it.  The

10     role of the MUP is not significant at all, in some context -- well ...

11        Q.   So whatever you heard about it later, you never heard that

12     anybody had been taken there against their will, and whilst they were

13     there, beaten up?

14        A.   I did not know about that.

15        Q.   If you had known, if you had done an inspection, or you had sent

16     an inspector, and you had found that people were being kept there against

17     their will, is that something you would have reported?

18        A.   That goes without saying.  It would be our official duty not only

19     to report to our immediate superior in the Ministry of the Interior but

20     also we'd have to inform the military command.  After all, there was a

21     war going on.  In all wars, anywhere in the world, there were collection

22     centres.  There were camps.  That is a necessity.  That is a product of

23     war.  The military had to bear that in mind.  That's way it was.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that may be a suitable moment to

25     pause, although I have a couple of more questions on the July the 11th

Page 6664

 1     meeting.

 2             May I asking that photograph of Pale be admitted and marked,

 3     please.  In fact, we'd better have two.  I suppose one that was marked

 4     one and a plain one.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  The un-annotated photograph will be Exhibit P990,

 7     and the annotated one will be Exhibit P991, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Well, as we indicated earlier, sir, we will now

 9     excuse you until tomorrow.  You are not released as a witness, and I am

10     required to enjoin you not to discuss your testimony -- not to speak with

11     lawyers on other side of the matter or to discuss your testimony with

12     anybody outside the courtroom.  We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00,

13     in this courtroom, and the Court is not rising at this moment.  The Usher

14     will now escort you from the -- from the Chamber.

15             Thank you, sir.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I shall abide by these

17     rules.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, just before Your Honours deal with the

20     matters I have raised, I have in addition been reminded, if I ever knew

21     it, that all the orders made in respect of Stanisic by the decision of

22     the 26th November 2008 apply to the Zupljanin Defence.

23             Accordingly, the rule is, at the moment:

24             "The Defence shall not approach a witness or potential witness

25     identified by the Prosecution without prior written notice to the

Page 6665

 1     Prosecution, in order to allow the Prosecution to obtain the consent of

 2     the witness and to take steps as may be necessary and appropriate to

 3     protect the security and privacy of the witness or potential witness."

 4             That was the 6th June 2005 decision which then applied to

 5     Stanisic only, but by the 26th of November 2008 order also applies to

 6     Zupljanin.

 7             May I say straightaway, I fully think that, probably Mr. Krgovic,

 8     like me, wasn't aware of it, and possibly either Mr. Pantelic either.

 9     But that is the situation at the moment.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.  So we need say nothing

11     further on that issue at this point.

12             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             As regards the other two matters raised by Ms. Korner at the

15     beginning of today's session, the first has to do with whether the three

16     pages which she sought to have marked and entered as an exhibit could and

17     should be so entered.  And we are reminded of the proceedings of the

18     18th of February, and this matter, as far as the Chamber is concerned,

19     has been dealt with.  And the -- there is no dispute -- there appears to

20     be no dispute as to the accuracy of the -- transcript that was verbally

21     put to the witness by Ms. Korner in her -- in her questions, and

22     therefore the necessity of and the propriety of admitting the three pages

23     separately as exhibits does not arise.

24             As regards the second matter, and that is the way in which the

25     list of what we would refer to as recently discovered or recently

Page 6666

 1     uncovered or recently realised to be of assistance documents.  That is,

 2     and counsel would appreciate, a matter which has -- which continues to be

 3     raised, and it is an issue which the Chamber will not rule on today,

 4     because it is a matter that is under active consideration.

 5             So with that, we take the adjournment to tomorrow morning at

 6     9.00.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, just on the point of view of

 8     interviews being put to witnesses.  Just for future reference, if either

 9     we put it to, let's say, to Defence witness or for various reasons we put

10     part of an interview to the witness, the normal procedure would be that

11     it becomes an exhibit simply so there cannot be any argument about the

12     accuracy.  But if you're saying it is read out accurately, then no

13     exhibit.

14             In fact, I did skip various parts but they don't really matter.

15     I'll accept that, but I just want to know for future reference.  So

16     provided we read the whole thing out, no exhibit.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This was -- this was Mr. Hannis's own proposal.

18             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I saw that.  I'm not sure that's correct,

19     but ... anyhow.  All right.  I heard Your Honour say case-by-case basis,

20     but, all right.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.54 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

24                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.