Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7563

 1                           Monday, 15 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Good afternoon to everyone.  May we begin in the usual manner by

10     recording today's appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner

12     assisted by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this afternoon.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For

17     Zupljanin Defence, Dragan Krgovic and Miroslav Cuskic.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, just a couple of matters before the

21     witness comes in.

22             First is, I don't know whether Your Honours have had a chance to

23     look at the diagram of the makeup of the CSB and the SJB in Banja Luka.

24             It was based on the -- effectively the first 54 pages of the

25     interview that was conducted with the witness -- with Mr. Tutus in

Page 7564

 1     Banja Luka in 2004, and rather than go through it all, we thought the

 2     simplest thing to do would be to reduce it to one of these charts again.

 3     Because Mr. Tutus couldn't check it until yesterday, and he made some

 4     alterations to the original chart, we couldn't actually disclose it until

 5     this morning.

 6             I understand that -- my learned friend -- Mr. Zecevic does not

 7     object.  Mr. Krgovic, I think, wants to be able to check with it

 8     Zupljanin first but is prepared, I think, to let it go in subject to any

 9     matters that may arise, so that's the first thing.

10             Your Honours, the second matter is this.  I don't know whether

11     Your Honours had a chance to read the proofing note.  You'll there's a

12     reference there to the ill health which the witness suffers from.  Now, I

13     know he went to see the doctor this morning.  I did ask VWS if they could

14     let me know there were any problems.  I heard nothing, so I'm assuming,

15     optimistically, that there are none.  I asked him what the situation was

16     about reading documents, and he says he thinks he's all right.  He'd

17     prefer, as it were, read to him, and to follow than to try and read

18     himself, and I think it's actually going to be easier on the screen

19     because we can highlight and enlarge the various bits rather and being

20     given a bundle of documents.

21             But I'm simply alerting Your Honours to it.  I think the more

22     possibility -- the more -- the greater problem may be the high blood

23     pressure.  I -- I hope Your Honours will forgive me, I told him that if

24     he felt unwell at all, he should immediately let Your Honours know.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 7565

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, our current advice is that the witness

 2     having been seen by the medical staff this morning is well at this point.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I do no more than alert you to a

 4     potential problem.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, of course.

 6             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  Your Honours, I had given notice

 8     that I wished to raise one matter before the Trial Chamber before the

 9     witness is ushered in.  I had already discussed it with Ms. Korner and it

10     does relate precisely to the health of the witness.

11             The point is, the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka did the

12     forensic expertise for all the public security stations covered by the

13     CSB.  The CSB Banja Luka, or, rather, the archive of that centre, is the

14     only CSB archive which has been mostly preserved and since it was seized

15     by IFOR units in 1998, it has been in the possession of the Office of the

16     Prosecutor.

17             From the viewpoint of the Prosecution, according to the

18     indictment and the pre-trial brief, investigations against perpetrators

19     in areas where the victims were Muslim or Croat, or non-Serbs, were not

20     properly done, and, in that sense, the forensic material found in the

21     archive of the CSB Banja Luka is very relevant to this case.

22             In the course of my interview that I had with this witness last

23     Saturday, I showed to him some of these documents and he identified some

24     of them and discussed them.  However, since this concerns a relatively

25     large amount of material, I thought, precisely in view of the health of

Page 7566

 1     this witness, I should suggest the application of the same procedure as

 2     with Ms. Hanson.  The witness would identify a few of the documents and

 3     the rest, according to the list, would be made available to the Trial

 4     Chamber subsequently with an application that they be admitted.  Because

 5     these documents are more or less identical; reports on the taking of

 6     finger-prints, the paraffin glove test, et cetera.  I wanted to spare the

 7     witness the effort of looking through the entirety of the documents and

 8     to save time, of course, and that is why I thought I would suggest this

 9     course of action.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  The -- thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

12             I -- I don't know that there would be any objection to this

13     course, but the Chamber does have a question that perhaps you -- on which

14     you could perhaps assist.  And that is the method by which the -- we can

15     be satisfied that the specimen documents which the witness proves while

16     in court corresponds to the -- is -- is an accurate reflection of the

17     bulk of the documents, if you follow my question.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I will try to explain.

19             Your Honours, the witness cannot confirm each and every document,

20     obviously.  But, first of all, it is not within the SJB Banja Luka but

21     within -- within the CSB Banja Luka, this criminal technical department

22     or forensic department.  But being in the same building where the CSB was

23     situated at the time, he knows the procedure and, in fact, he, as the --

24     as the chief of SJB, also used the -- used the -- CSB technical

25     department in some cases where they were investigating some serious

Page 7567

 1     crimes.

 2             Now, I'm not -- I am -- I'm really not sure to give you any --

 3     any -- any additional explanation, except as far as I can see, all these

 4     documents have -- are sort of a form on the first side, and then they

 5     contain some -- some data which are -- which are connected to a -- to a

 6     certain crime.  If -- if -- if it pleases Your Honours, we can probably

 7     MFI these documents, but then, again, we would be required to bring

 8     another witness to -- to confirm the contents of these documents,

 9     probably from the forensic department.

10             I was -- I was of opinion that -- that my learned colleague from

11     the -- from the Prosecution side does not object to this, and therefore

12     I -- I tried to shortcut the -- the admission of these documents, because

13     I think we -- they are relevant and we will rely on that.

14             Now, if -- of course, it is in the hands of Your Honour and I

15     will accept whatever the ruling will be.

16             I hope I was of any assistance.

17             Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] Obviously we don't get to

19     see the documents until they're released by the Defence once the witness

20     starts.

21             And my understanding is that -- that the witness can talk about

22     the procedure, may know about some of the files but not the others.  If

23     it assists Mr. Zecevic, we are, of course, calling a number of different

24     prosecutors and can probably deal with the documents if they're all part

25     of a criminal file.

Page 7568

 1             However, having said that, provided that we're assured that these

 2     are all documents that come from the CSB archives, then I don't see that

 3     we'll be raising any objection to this procedure.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, the -- the issue that is being put

 5     before the Chamber in respect of your proposal is that the Chamber has to

 6     be fully aware of the contents of every piece of document that we admit

 7     into evidence.

 8             So we will go along -- or we could go along with your proposal,

 9     provided that we can rely on your assessments that these documents are

10     very similar in nature and kind.  Because if -- if -- if you cannot -- if

11     are you telling us that -- that the documents cover a broad range of

12     issues, then we would have a difficulty to import them en bloc, if you

13     see what I mean.

14             So the only -- the fundamental condition that we have to put in

15     order to accept your proposal is that once you have shown us two or three

16     of the documents, we can be sure that the remaining bulk of the documents

17     are really the same in kind and nature.  If not, then we will have to

18     develop another procedure.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is exactly, Your Honours, what I intended to

20     do.

21             They are mainly two or maybe three groups of documents.  One is

22     the taking of the -- so-called paraffin glove, which would -- which is a

23     procedure to establish, if the certain person has used the fire --

24     fire-arm.  That is one -- that is one group of documents.

25             The other group of documents is -- are the documents where --

Page 7569

 1     where they are -- where they are actually taking the finger-prints from

 2     the victims, trying to establish the identity of the victims.  That's the

 3     second.

 4             And the third group of documents refers to the cases of searches

 5     for explosive materials and some arson is -- which were happening in the

 6     territory.

 7             So that is -- as far as I -- as I -- as I have been able to -- to

 8     identify, those are the three groups of the documents.  And they're

 9     basically, of course, containing different -- different data in them

10     because they refer to a specific case, but in their general nature, they

11     are completely identical documents.

12             Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So the usher -- if the usher would kindly escort the

15     witness in [Microphone not activated].

16             Ms. Korner, there are no protective measures for this witness?

17             MS. KORNER:  No, there aren't, Your Honour.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  You may be seated.

23             Would you tell us your name, your profession, and your date of

24     birth, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vladimir Tutus, born on the 15th of

Page 7570

 1     October, 1953, in Sanski Most.  I have a degree in law, specialisation in

 2     security.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  And you say you have a degree in law.  Is -- did you

 4     work as a lawyer?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I -- I have a degree in law,

 6     and I have worked as a lawyer specialising in security.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Serb.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Have you previously testified before this Tribunal

10     or in the region of the former Yugoslavia, in any of the countries that

11     comprise that region?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have not testified before

13     this Tribunal before.  I did testify, however, in a number of cases

14     before the court in Bosnia and Herzegovina -- or, rather, one case.

15             MS. KORNER:  It's in my proofing notes, but nothing to do with

16     war crimes at all.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

18             The -- you have been called as a witness by the Prosecution

19     before this Tribunal, and the procedure is that the side calling you - in

20     this case, the Prosecution - would begin by asking you questions, and

21     the -- when they would have concluded, then the -- it is open to counsel

22     for each of the accused to ask questions of you, if they wish.

23             Following that, the Prosecution has the opportunity to re-examine

24     you on matters that would have arisen out of cross-examination.  And when

25     the lawyers are finished, then the Chamber itself may have questions of

Page 7571

 1     you.

 2             You are scheduled to testify -- it is anticipated that your

 3     testimony will occupy a number of days, and the -- as may have been

 4     pointed out to you, the -- we would have begun today's session in the

 5     afternoon, but for the remainder of the week, the sessions are in the

 6     morning session -- in the morning beginning at 9.00, except Friday.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Wednesday.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Wednesday when we aren't sitting, and then Friday

 9     again we are in the afternoon.

10             The sessions are not continuous, although the -- the length of

11     time for each day is four hours it is not a continuous period.  There are

12     breaks after not more than 90 minutes for technical and other reasons

13     which allows you to time to refresh yourself.  And the -- with that, I

14     would invite counsel for the Prosecution, Ms. Korner, to begin her

15     examination-in-chief.

16                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR TUTUS

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

19        Q.   Mr. Tutus, I want to begin with how you come to be at this court.

20             I think it's right that you were interviewed in 2001 in

21     Banja Luka by the Office of the Prosecutor; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you were interviewed as a witness on that occasion.

24             In 2004, again, were you interviewed at some length by the Office

25     of the Prosecutor, but this time with the status of a suspect?

Page 7572

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours can I just make it clear I think so

 3     that you don't wonder why there was a change.  It's not that there was

 4     further evidence found between 2001 and 2004.  It was simply that in 2001

 5     it was decided that the witnesses -- the persons who were interviewed who

 6     had been a party to the events could be interviewed as witnesses.  By

 7     2004 it was decided that technically, if nothing else, they came within

 8     the provisions of the -- the rule which qualifies them to be suspects.

 9             So it's not that there was a sudden change.  I think in fairness

10     to the witness that should be said.

11        Q.   I think it's also right, Mr. Tutus, that you are here today

12     because a summons was issued bringing you to the court; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, I received a summons from the Trial Chamber.

14        Q.   All right.  You were able to see and speak to Defence counsel

15     from both teams, that is Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zupljanin, on the Saturday,

16     when you -- that is, last Saturday, the 13th of March; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you were -- you spent yesterday, and I'm sorry it took so

19     long, going through the various documents that -- some of which, not all,

20     you will be happy to hear, I'm going to ask you to look at.

21             Now, can I start, first of all, with your career very shortly.

22             You told the Trial Chamber you had a law degree.  I think it's

23     right that you began your career as a police officer in Banja Luka in

24     1973; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 7573

 1        Q.   You were then sent by the police for further schooling and

 2     training in Zagreb, and it's, I think it's right, that you then went to

 3     university, completing that in 1980.  And is that when you got your law

 4     degree?

 5        A.   I finished the College for Internal Affairs in Zagreb and I

 6     became, by profession, a lawyer, so -- specialised in crime.

 7        Q.   All right.  However, did you then return to the police force

 8     and -- I'm going to skip a bit of your career, because, in 1990, after

 9     the multi-party elections, did you become the chief of the SJB in

10     Banja Luka?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, I think it's right that you -- you know Mico Stanisic.  And

13     can you tell the Court how long you have known him?

14        A.   Since 1971.  1971.

15        Q.   All right.  So was that when you were, in fact, still at school?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   What about Stojan Zupljanin, when did you first meet him?

18        A.   As far as can I remember, it was around 1975, when he started

19     working in the SUP in Banja Luka.  I was already working at the time.

20        Q.   So, again, by 1990, you'd known him for some 15 years or so?

21        A.   More or less.

22        Q.   You were at school with Mico Stanisic, but did you ever work with

23     him professionally as a police officer?

24        A.   I worked in Banja Luka, and Mico worked in Sarajevo.

25        Q.   Right.  He answered the question.  All right.  Can I just ask you

Page 7574

 1     next about some general questions about Banja Luka.

 2             First of all, I'd like you to have a look at a map of Banja Luka,

 3     which shows the ethnic national distribution which is number 10236.01.

 4             I'm afraid, Mr. Tutus, it sometimes takes a little bit of time to

 5     load this onto the screen.

 6             Thank you.

 7             First of all, that shows that the census in 1991 showed that

 8     there were 29.000 Croats, 106 -- nearly 107.000 Serbs, 28.000 -- 28.500

 9     Muslims, and just over 23.500 people who described themselves as

10     Yugoslavs in Banja Luka.

11             Does that accord with your recollection?  I mean, it's actually a

12     census figure, so ...

13        A.   I wasn't concerned with statistics that related to the

14     population.  But if this is official data from the census, then I have no

15     reason to doubt the correctness of the information.

16        Q.   I mean, really, the effect is that Banja Luka was, as far as the

17     nationality went -- a sizeable majority was Serbs.  Would you agree with

18     that, from your own knowledge?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And if you -- if we pull the map up a bit so we can see the --

21     the distribution, as it were, again, that shows the various villages

22     around the town of Banja Luka and the majority makeup of each village.

23     Again, does that accord with your knowledge of the area?

24        A.   Well, I can't see these villages very clearly.

25        Q.   Right.

Page 7575

 1        A.   It's a little blurred.  I can see Bastasi here in green.  That

 2     village was inhabited by Muslims, by Bosniaks.

 3        Q.   Right.  That's fine.  I don't -- I don't think we need trouble

 4     you -- I don't want you to strain your eyes, Mr. Tutus.

 5             As far as the town of Banja --

 6        A.   Well ...

 7        Q.   As far as the town of Banja Luka is concerned, were there certain

 8     areas within the town that were more heavily populated by Bosniaks or

 9     Croats?

10        A.   On the whole, the population of Banja Luka was mixed.  There were

11     certain urban area, however, where the majority were citizens of other

12     nationalities, for example, in Vrbanja.  In Vrbanja there was a

13     concentration of Muslims that.  Would be one example.

14        Q.   All right.  What about the Mejdan area?

15        A.   Yes, that's in that area, in the Mejdan and Vrbanja area.  It

16     goes on towards Celinac, then in direction of Seher in Desa Novoselija,

17     that area was also inhabited by the Muslims.  They were concentrated

18     there.  That was in Desa Novoselija.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's all I want to ask you about the

20     map.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask that it be admitted and

22     marked.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1075, Your Honour.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 7576

 1        Q.   Next, can I just ask you to look, please, at a photograph of the

 2     CSB itself, which is -- which is ... yeah, 3419.28.  And this is a recent

 3     photograph.  But can you tell us, we know that the CSB and the SJB in

 4     Banja Luka shared the same premises in Banja Luka.  Which floor was the

 5     SJB based on, or was it more than one floor?

 6        A.   It was on the first floor.  That's where my office was in the

 7     SJB.  And we had certain offices on the fourth floor as well.  And also

 8     on the ground floor, of course.

 9        Q.   We'll have a look at your -- or the diagrammatical representation

10     of what you explained about the various personnel in the SJB and the CSB.

11     But did you share a communications centre?

12        A.   Yes, we had a joint one.

13        Q.   All right.  All right.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, could I -- has that been exhibited?

15     It's not been exhibited yet.  Could I ask that be admitted and marked,

16     please.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1076, Your Honour.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   Mr. Tutus, you actually spent a very long time with Mr. Sebire

21     helpfully explaining who was who in the SJB and the CSB, and you've had a

22     chance to look at a diagram that was produced by us.  You made some

23     corrections, and I'd like you now to have a look at that, please.

24             MS. KORNER:  It's 10138.12.

25             Now, we're going to have to enlarge this quite a lot for anybody

Page 7577

 1     to see anything.  All right.

 2             Can we start, please, if we -- can we move the CSB part over,

 3     which is the right-hand side, so we can get a look at the left-hand side

 4     and enlarge it?  All right.

 5        Q.   Can you see that, Mr. Tutus, now?

 6        A.   Yes, that's a lot better.

 7        Q.   All right.  Now, we see yourself there as the chief.

 8             And then do we see --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Divided up the various sections which were contained within the

11     SJB, that is, the crime section of which Mr. Zoran Josic, I hope, was the

12     chief, the traffic safety section.  Is that right, it was taken in May or

13     June of 1992, it was simply put into the CSB?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And Djuro Bulic, who was the commander of the traffic safety

16     section, in fact, was he moved to the CSB and he became the deputy to

17     Stojan Zupljanin?

18        A.   He moved a little earlier.  Prior to the traffic safety station

19     being moved, he moved a little earlier.

20        Q.   Then under that, do we see --

21             MS. KORNER:  If we just move the thing slightly to the left, not

22     under, sorry, across, I mean, can we move across slightly because there

23     is one thing that doesn't show up.  Can we move the document to the left.

24     Yes, thank you.

25             Were these what I call the substations which came within your

Page 7578

 1     jurisdiction, that is, the Centar, Budzak, and Mejdan?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And there we see the various people who were the commanders of

 4     that station.

 5             Now we see under Vinko - is it? - Riling?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   That -- the words "did not sign."

 8             Does that refer to the solemn declaration that was -- that the --

 9     that the police in Banja Luka had to sign after April of 1992?

10        A.   It concerns the solemn declaration that all employees of the

11     service had to sign.  Not just employees of the police.

12        Q.   All right.  You say all employees.  All employees in the MUP or

13     all employees in whatever kind of enterprise they were engaged?

14        A.   All employees in the MUP.

15        Q.   All right.  And what nationality was Mr. Riling?

16        A.   A Croat.

17        Q.   And then he was replaced by Mr. Miskic.

18             In Mejdan --

19             MS. KORNER:  Can we just move it a bit?  Thank you.

20        Q.   We see Mirsad Beharic was the commander.  Same thing, he didn't

21     sign, so -- and was he -- I think we can all tell from that, he was a

22     Bosniak, or a Muslim, as it was in those day?

23        A.   That's right.

24        Q.   To be replaced by Mr. -- that one's a difficult.  Can you say

25     that name, the one below, who replaced him?

Page 7579

 1        A.   Petar Tanazovic.

 2        Q.   And then, finally, Radomir Rodic, replaced him?

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to -- can we move it to the right

 4     again.

 5        Q.   There was also a legal and administration section, and she was

 6     moved -- I'm not sure what 09 is supposed to stand for.  Moved to 09.

 7     Oh, I see, is that the line?  Yeah.  It's the personnel -- yeah.

 8             Did she move to the CSB?  Yes, I think we can see that she did.

 9        A.   Yes, she was moved to the CSB a little later.

10        Q.   All right.  I don't want to -- I think that's all we need to do

11     on the SJB.

12             MS. KORNER:  Can we just have a quick look at the CSB diagram.

13     So if we move the document back to getting -- so we get to the CSB.

14     Right up, yeah, right across, thanks, and then up again.  No, sorry, I

15     want to go down to the bit of the diagram that shows the CSB, which is to

16     the right.  Yes, no, I think ... other way.

17             If you move the document to the left, the whole big document and

18     let's get on to the CSB.  Yeah, thank you.  And a bit more.

19             Can we start at the top of the document.  We seem to have lost --

20     no, move the document to the left, please.  Great.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Banja Luka CSB, Stojan Zupljanin, and then his secretary.

22             MS. KORNER:  Now, can we -- sorry, can we go down the document

23     again to where we were, to Mr. Jahic.  A bit -- can we move the document

24     to the right, please.  No, to the right.  Great.  Stop.  Thank you.  And

25     a bit further up.  Can we -- could I have the top bit of that part.

Page 7580

 1     Thank you.

 2        Q.   Originally, it says right up until April of 1992, again with the

 3     solemn declaration, the deputy chief of the centre was Mr. Jahic; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   That's not correct.  Bajazid Jahic was the chief of the sector of

 6     public security.  There was no deputy position.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Was -- so the chief of the -- the -- the sorry.  So the

 8     chief of the -- I'm sorry, let me just have a look.

 9             They haven't caught what you said on LiveNote either.  What did

10     you say he was?

11        A.   I said that there was not a position of deputy chief of the CSB.

12     Bajazid Jahic was the chief of the sector for public security.

13        Q.   All right.  Sorry.  Did you correct that when you saw that

14     yesterday?

15        A.   Well, I don't see that it's incorrect.  You said deputy.  I don't

16     see the deputies written here.  I don't understand.

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated] So he's the chief of the ... the chief

18     of sector for public security.

19             In reality, did that mean that -- that whoever was chief of the

20     security of public security acted as a deputy to Stojan Zupljanin?

21        A.   You cannot look at it that way.  He headed the public security

22     sector which included other services as well.  There was no deputy chief.

23     He was responsible for the part of the service that he headed.  That's

24     all it meant.  When the chief of the centre would be absent, or was about

25     to go away somewhere, then he would, himself, designate a stand-in.

Page 7581

 1     There were two sectors within that service.

 2        Q.   And when he was designating that stand-in, was it normally the

 3     chief of that sector for public security.  Mr. Tutus, did you hear the

 4     question?  Sorry.

 5        A.   Yes, yes, I heard the question.

 6             But I can't give you a precise answer.  I don't know to whom the

 7     chief of the centre assigned his powers.

 8        Q.   All right.  In any event, is it right that Mr. Bulic did replace

 9     Mr. Jahic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right.  And then you've said that we've set out all the --

12     the various sections which came under the CSB.

13             MS. KORNER:  Could we just move the document so that we can look

14     at the Department for Analysis and Information for a moment, which means

15     moving the document to the left.

16             Yes, just stop there.  Thank you.

17        Q.   The lady we see there, Fatima Ejupovic-Hrnic.  What nationality

18     was she?

19        A.   I think she was a Muslim.

20        Q.   All right.  How long did she -- if you --

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we go down the document a bit, please.

22        Q.   We see she was replaced eventually by somebody called Cubrilovic.

23     How long did she stay?  Do you remember, when did she leave the CSB?

24        A.   They worked in analysis.  I don't think the analysis section had

25     a chief, or at least I don't know who the chief was.  But they -- the two

Page 7582

 1     of them, worked together in analysis.

 2        Q.   Yes.  So do you know when Ms. Ejupovic-Hrnic left the CSB,

 3     stopped working for them?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly, but I think it was sometime in 1992.

 5     Perhaps mid-1992.  She didn't leave immediately.

 6        Q.   All right.  You were asked about this in your interview.  Would

 7     it be right to say that effectively by the end of 1992 both the CSB and

 8     the SJB in Banja Luka contained only employees who were Serbs?

 9        A.   You couldn't say that that way.  Everyone had to state their

10     nationality individually.  Plus, there were people from mixed marriages

11     and you could not look at it like that.

12        Q.   I don't -- I don't want to ask anything more about that document.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask they be admitted, E and O,

14     for any -- we may remove -- we may later replace by removing the words

15     "deputy chief," but in any event, could it be made an exhibit.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  I just wish to confirm that there is no objection

18     from the Defence?  I think there's the indication we'd had earlier.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, Your Honours.  The Stanisic

20     Defence does not object.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

22             Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1077, Your Honour.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Yes, Mr. Tutus, now I want to move to some of the events of 1992.

Page 7583

 1     In particular, I want to start with the meeting of February the 11th.  I

 2     think we do.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I may need just a moment.

 4             Your Honour, I'm sorry, something went wrong with the dates when

 5     they came out.  They came out American style, so they're not in

 6     chronological order.  So there may be a delay while I just work out where

 7     I want to start.

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MS. KORNER:  1D135.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   It will come up in a moment, Mr. ...

13             Now, you were shown this document when you were interviewed in

14     2004.  You -- you did attend this meeting, didn't you?

15        A.   Where was this meeting held?

16        Q.   In Banja Luka, in, we've heard, the Hotel Bosna.

17        A.   Well, I probably did, if it's written there.

18        Q.   Well, your name on -- appears --

19        A.   All right.  I've just seen it when I put on my glasses.

20             Yes, I agree I was there.  I cannot identify the place.  I cannot

21     remember I was on that location, but I am not going to go as far as to

22     dispute it.

23        Q.   The -- the assembled company who were there were all reasonably

24     high-up members of -- Serbian members of the MUP, weren't they?

25        A.   Well, I didn't go through the entire list.  But I believe it is

Page 7584

 1     correct.

 2        Q.   You -- you also knew, I think, didn't you, Momcilo Mandic, again,

 3     since school?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And we've dealt with Mico Stanisic.  Did you know Cedo Kljajic?

 6        A.   I knew him.  Kljajic is the name, yeah.

 7        Q.   Yeah.  Slavko Draskovic.  I mean, rather than taking you through

 8     the whole lot now, it must -- how usual was it to have a meeting like

 9     this held not in the CSB but in the Hotel Bosna?

10        A.   Well, I don't know.  Depends on the organiser.  The usual custom

11     is to hold it on the premises of organs of internal affairs.  But it

12     could be held elsewhere.

13        Q.   Do you remember how you got an invitation to this meeting?

14        A.   I can't remember.

15        Q.   All right.

16             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Could we go, please, in the document to

17     the third page in English and to the fourth page, I -- yeah.  To the

18     fourth page in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   The minute-taker, Mr. Vilasovic [phoen], recorded you as speaking

20     at this meeting starting by saying:

21             "The people of Bosanska Krajina have lost trust in the Serbian

22     leadership of the MUP as well as the entire BH MUP."

23             Now by "the people of Bosanska Krajina," did you mean the

24     population as a whole or members of the MUP?

25             MS. KORNER:  I think we need to bring the B/C/S up a bit for the

Page 7585

 1     witness.  The B/C/S, not the English.

 2        A.   I don't remember.  I did not revise this text before the

 3     transcript was made, but if I said the people of Bosanska Krajina, I

 4     certainly couldn't have been speaking on behalf of the entire people.  I

 5     was speaking on behalf of the service I was heading.

 6        Q.   And by "the Serbian leadership of the MUP," who were you

 7     referring to?

 8        A.   Well, I meant all of them who were working there.

 9        Q.   When you say "all of them," all of them where?

10        A.   I meant all of them who were working in the top leadership of the

11     MUP of Republika Srpska [as interpreted], because I felt that from the

12     very first day when I went out to talk to them, and later the dispatches

13     that came down were inappropriate, and you could not feel the

14     representation of Serbian staff in the MUP in a proper way.

15        Q.   And your complaint largely seems to be that the equipment that

16     was being provided was inadequate; is that fair?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  Just for the clarity -- for

19     the clarity of the transcript, it's recorded that the witness said

20     "leadership of the MUP of Republika Srpska."

21             However, I mean, you could clarify that.  I believe he meant

22     something else.  But -- but said MUP of Republika Srpska.

23             Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

25        Q.   Yes, I think you were referring there to the MUP of -- of BiH,

Page 7586

 1     not Republika Srpska; is that right?  The old MUP.

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   Was it clear to you that this was a meeting, really, about how

 4     the MUP was divide -- going to divide?

 5        A.   That's not how I understood it.

 6        Q.   Well, just let's move on and have a look at the conclusions for a

 7     moment.

 8             MS. KORNER:  No -- sorry, move on.  That's the fourth page in

 9     English and the fifth page in -- sorry, one, two, three, four -- sixth

10     page in B/C/S.

11        Q.   Number 3:  "The Serbian collegium of the SR BH MUP is hereby

12     instructed to carry out all the preparations necessary for the

13     functioning of the Serbian MUP, after the promulgation of the Serbian

14     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina constitution."

15             What, in your view, does that mean, if not, that there is to be a

16     division of the MUP?

17        A.   It means exactly what it says.  I did not participate in the

18     drafting of these conclusions.

19        Q.   But the conclusions presumably had to be agreed on by those who

20     were at the meeting.

21        A.   I did not take part in that.

22        Q.   All right.  So it's your testimony, is it, Mr. Tutus, that you

23     were not aware at any stage during the course of this meeting in the

24     Hotel Bosna that what was going on was the drawing up of plans for the

25     division of the MUP?

Page 7587

 1        A.   I did not understand it that way.  I did not experience it that

 2     way.

 3        Q.   Well, then I should ask you:  How did you understand this meeting

 4     of nothing but Serb members of the MUP, what did you understand was the

 5     purpose of the meeting?

 6        A.   I don't know if all of the people present were Serbs, but let's

 7     take that they were.  I understood as a security briefing about the

 8     security situation in the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

 9     that representatives of the Ministry of Interior were informing us of

10     this situation and that we, from the grass roots, were telling them what

11     kind of problems we were encountering on the ground.

12        Q.   But if -- if this was a -- a security briefing about the security

13     situation in the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, then why was

14     it being held in a room in the Hotel Bosna, and -- and not in the CSB, or

15     in Sarajevo?

16        A.   To me, that was a marginal matter.  I never gave it any thought

17     until you asked the question:  Why Hotel Bosna?

18             The person who convened it there is the only one who knows.  It

19     certainly was more pleasant to meet there than somewhere else.  I don't

20     think that matters at all.

21             Sorry, it could have been held in Sarajevo.  I mean, I don't know

22     the reasons.

23        Q.   No.  But if it's a security briefing being given to the MUP, then

24     the obvious place would be Sarajevo, wouldn't it?

25        A.   Well, it could have been held there, and it could have been held

Page 7588

 1     here.

 2        Q.   And looking at the names of the people, I think most of whom you

 3     did know, it's right, isn't it, there isn't a single non-Serb officer

 4     there, police officer?

 5        A.   That I don't know.  There could have been among them people who

 6     were from mixed marriages but did not declare themselves that way.  I

 7     really don't know.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, I don't want to spend anymore time on that

 9     document.  Thank you very much.

10             All right.  Can we move on then, please, to the events that

11     followed.

12             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please -- just a moment.  Yes, at

13     document number 40, please.  No, I'm sorry, I need -- sorry.  I'm sorry.

14     I'm so sorry.  39.  Yeah.

15             P527.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I don't know how long you are to be with

17     this document.  We are two minutes away from the break.  I don't know if

18     you want to wait until we return to deal with this?

19             MS. KORNER:  It's a very short document --

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

21             MS. KRONER:  -- and I can deal with it straight away.

22        Q.   This is a document that's dated two days after this meeting and

23     is addressed to the CSB Banja Luka, Zupljanin, and various other places.

24     It says:

25             "Following the conclusions reached at the meeting held in

Page 7589

 1     Banja Luka on the 11th of February ... please set up and have a meeting

 2     with all senior executives of MUP SR BiH in your area and inform me

 3     accordingly."

 4             And that's signed by Mr. Mandic.  You probably didn't see the

 5     document before.  But did he have a meeting, Mr. Zupljanin, to discuss

 6     the conclusions that had been reached at the 11th of February?

 7        A.   I don't remember that.  There were meetings and meetings, but

 8     whether any meetings were held on that subject, I really can't recall.

 9        Q.   It's addressed to a rather odd mixture, isn't it?  Three CSBs,

10     and three SJBs, and then the SUP for Sarajevo.

11             Can you give any explanation as to why these particular CSBs and

12     SJBs would have been singled out?

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   All right.  In normal circumstances, if the ministry sent out a

15     dispatch like this -- better be careful about calling it a dispatch, but

16     a document like this, would it go to all CSBs?

17        A.   I can only tell you what I think, but it doesn't have to be

18     correct.

19             In my view, this dispatch shows that something is wrong in the

20     MUP, that the situation is difficult, precisely what I was saying when we

21     were looking at that transcript.

22        Q.   All right.  That's all I want to ask about that.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, before we leave that document --

24             MS. KORNER:  Yeah.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- could we just, just to be on the safe side,

Page 7590

 1     that we have fully understood the meaning of it, ask the witness two

 2     questions; namely, first of all, who would the senior executives of the

 3     MUP SR BiH be?  Who -- who would Momcilo Mandic have had in mind when he

 4     asked this.  And, secondly can we just confirm that the SR BiH is the

 5     Serbian -- or the Socialist Republic.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Socialist Republic.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  So it's the old --

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, it's the old --

 9        Q.   But could you just confirm that, Mr. Tutus, rather than me giving

10     evidence.  There he is referring to the Socialist Republic, is he not, of

11     the MUP?

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   And who -- and you heard the Judge's question.  Who -- who do you

14     understand to be senior executives?

15        A.   It's not very clear to me.

16        Q.   Well, I mean, would that mean SJB chiefs?  Would that include you

17     and the others?

18        A.   It could include everyone in the MUP, or anyone in the MUP.  It's

19     just not very clear to me.  Maybe it refers to the seat of the MUP.

20     Maybe it refers to the centres, or the people who are among the

21     addressees.  It's really not quite clear to me.  But logically it should

22     refer to those to whom it is addressed.

23        Q.   Yeah.  Would it refer to -- to people who were members of the

24     collegium?

25        A.   I keep telling you, I don't really understand this.

Page 7591

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, I think that's as far as we can take that.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  We apologise for the delay.  We were discussing

 6     procedural matters.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, before we move away this document, I

 9     have a supplementary question for the witness.

10             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tutus, could I just clarify one thing of the

13     response that you provided to Ms. Korner just before the break, when she

14     asked you who were the senior executives of the MUP, and you told us

15     that, you know, you really didn't know and that could be literally

16     anyone.

17             The question that I wanted to put to you was, really, could the

18     senior executives be Muslims as well as Croats and Serbs, or would the

19     instruction from Mr. Momcilo Mandic really mean that what he had in mind

20     was that it would be only the senior executives of Serb ethnicity that

21     should be instructed about the meeting that took place two days earlier.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in this document, I

23     don't see that it concerns individuals on the basis of their nationality.

24     I can't draw that conclusion on the basis of this document.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Nor can I.  This is why I asked you.

Page 7592

 1             Well, thank you very much.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   I suppose the only conclusion you can draw, though, is that all

 4     the addressees, Zupljanin, Bjelosevic, Stojanovic, Savic, Cvijetic, and

 5     Stanisic, can't see who was at Bijeljina.  Oh, here, I think it's -- it's

 6     Predrag Jerasic, isn't it, in Bijeljina.  It's quite difficult to read,

 7     but ...

 8        A.   I agree with everything that you have said, that's all correct.

 9     Jerasic is the name.  I think that's the name.

10        Q.   They were all on the face of it, anyhow, Serbs, whether they came

11     from a mixed marriage or not.  That's correct, isn't it?

12        A.   I wouldn't really want to say what their ethnicity was.

13        Q.   Can we move on very quickly then to the next document that I'd

14     like you to look at, which is the document with the 65 ter number

15     40 [realtime transcript read in error "48"].  Not yet exhibited.  And I

16     just want to ask you about one thing on it.

17             The dates been missed off in the English translation for some

18     unknown reason, but we can see it clearly on the -- in the original

19     version, which is the 2nd of March, 1992.

20             And it's addressed, is it not, to the chief of all SJB security

21     stations.

22             MS. KORNER:  If we go, please, in the English to the third page

23     and, in the B/C/S, to the second page.

24        Q.   We'll try and enlarge it's -- because it's only the last -- it's

25     item number 11.

Page 7593

 1             MS. KORNER:  11.  Oh, yes.

 2        Q.   So I want you to try and look at, so we'll try enlarging it,

 3     yeah.

 4             This is a dispatch from Zupljanin.  If it was -- if it was

 5     addressed to all SJB chiefs, that would include you, would it.  That's

 6     right?

 7             "We call your attention once again to the obligation imposed by

 8     the instruction on urgent, regular, and interim reports on all incidents

 9     of security significance?"

10             Was that -- was Zupljanin concerned that people should report

11     regularly on -- on -- on matters to him?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   Okay.  That's all -- the rest of the documents concern with --

14     with -- on the security situation, and I don't want to trouble with it.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in that event, as it's not yet

16     exhibited, may it be admitted and marked, please.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, is it on your list of documents for

19     use with this --

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  It's tab 9.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab 9.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, document number 40.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Why can't I find it?

24             Oh, you said 40?  In the record it is said 48.  That's why

25     I couldn't --

Page 7594

 1             MS. KORNER:  Oh, right.  I see.  Right.  It's 40.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's why I couldn't find it.

 3             MS. KORNER:  It's 40.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P1078 Your Honour.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, then at the actual split that

 7     took place in the MUP.  Could you have a look, please, at document

 8     number -- sorry, it's already an exhibit, P353.  Oh, MFI for some reason.

 9        Q.   This is the, I suppose now, famous Mandic telegram of the 31st of

10     March, 1992, addressed to, amongst many addressees, SJB to the chief.

11     And I think when you were asked about this in interview, is this right,

12     you said you remembered receiving this?

13        A.   Well, if that's what I said, then it's probably the case.

14        Q.   Well, I know it's a long time ago now, but this telegram from

15     Momcilo Mandic saying that the Republika Srpska Assembly, or the Serbian

16     People of Assembly, had promulgated the constitution and that

17     Mico Stanisic had been made the minister of the interior, isn't that

18     something that was quite dramatic, in your view?

19        A.   Yes, it was quite a change.  But I wouldn't say that it was

20     dramatic.  But, yes, it was a significant change.

21        Q.   Hmm.  And were you surprised at all that this had happened?

22        A.   I followed the media and the events that preceded this, and on

23     the basis of those events and media coverage, I would say that this was

24     to be expected.

25        Q.   All right.  So did you get, as the chief the SJB, a copy of this

Page 7595

 1     document?

 2        A.   I can't remember, but it's addressed to SJBs so I assume so.  But

 3     I can't remember.

 4        Q.   But it -- it actually changed, didn't it, for example, the -- the

 5     number of CSBs, although Banja Luka still remained.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And instead of reporting to Mr. Delimustafic, as minister of the

 8     interior in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you -- you would be reporting to

 9     Mico Stanisic, wouldn't you, indirectly, obviously, through the CSBs?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   All right.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm told it was MFI'd through another

13     witness because they said he wasn't the relevant witness to take it, but

14     as this witness was the chief the SJB and even though he can't remember

15     now whether he got or not, it seems appropriate to admit it through this

16     witness.  Otherwise, I will admit it through the next witness but ...

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

20        Q.   However, I would like you to look now, please, at a document that

21     came from Mr. Delimustafic which unfortunately is not the way it ought to

22     be?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry.  I just -- I lost the track

24     what -- what is the -- the -- the P number of this document?  If you can

25     just ...

Page 7596

 1             Oh, thank you.  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Now, could you look, please, at document 130 -- sorry.  1D136.

 4     It's already admitted.

 5             On the very same day, after the telegram by Momcilo Mandic had

 6     been sent, Mr. Delimustafic sent a document, didn't he, to -- again,

 7     addressed to all the chiefs of the SJBs.

 8             And do you remember Mr. Delimustafic commenting on Mr. Mandic's

 9     telegram, by way of this -- this particular telegram?

10        A.   I remember that this fax was received.

11        Q.   All right.  And Mr. Delimustafic said that this was destructive

12     to the unity of the MUP, and he asks near the end of that first

13     paragraph:

14             "Obviously these -- there are problems in leadership, and I

15     appeal to all ministry workers to stay out of and above them and to

16     continue" -- I think it's "resolving," "very responsible and honourable

17     work and tasks entrusted to them in the existing organisation of the

18     MUP."

19             Did you pass on to those who were your subordinates in any way

20     the fact that Mr. Delimustafic was appealing for unity and that your

21     subordinates had a choice about whether to join the Serbian MUP or remain

22     within the MUP BiH?

23        A.   When you see the list of addressees, you can see that it was

24     addressed to the CSB, the SUP in Sarajevo, public security stations, and

25     then it says all police stations.  So Minister Delimustafic sent this to

Page 7597

 1     the lowest level organisational units at the time, and it was possible

 2     for everyone to be familiar with the contents of this document.

 3        Q.   So does that mean you didn't actually specifically hold a meeting

 4     of your subordinate police stations or subordinates within the SJB to

 5     discuss this matter?

 6        A.   We didn't hold meetings of any kind.

 7        Q.   Did you regard this as a major step?

 8        A.   Before this arrived, as far as I know, the Assembly of the

 9     Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina had adopted a constitution and

10     promulgated a Law on Internal Affairs.  If that's the case, and I think

11     it is, then we had to abide by the provisions of that constitution and of

12     those laws.  There was a crisis in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     as a result of which the relationships changed.

14        Q.   Did you ever consider that this decision to set up a separate

15     police force, was likely to -- if not lead to armed conflict, certainly

16     not resile from the -- the concept of an armed conflict?

17        A.   I didn't believe that it should lead to an armed conflict.

18        Q.   Maybe not in Banja Luka, but what about other areas where there

19     was a much more mixed population of Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.  Did you

20     ever think about that?

21        A.   From the very outset, I thought about it, when the former

22     Yugoslavia started breaking up.  I could see where things were going, but

23     in my assessment, there shouldn't have been a conflict between reasonable

24     people, but when a state disintegrates you can expect all sort of things.

25             MS. KORNER:  Well, before we look at what happened in Banja Luka

Page 7598

 1     at the beginning of April, can we look, please, at one more document,

 2     which is document 1 -- well, actually, this is actually dealing with the

 3     events of -- yes, beginning of April.  Okay, let's start with 1D137,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   Now, this is, again, addressed -- it's from the CSB Banja Luka,

 6     dated the 3rd of April, but it's addressed to the chiefs in -- in the

 7     SJBs within the area of the centre, and it's also sent to the Serbian

 8     Ministry of Interior amongst other places.

 9             And it says:

10             "In line with the dispatch," it begins, "from the SRBH MUP

11     collegium dated the 2nd of April concerning the reorganisation internal

12     affairs organs and their security services that has begun, a professional

13     collegium of security service centres chief was held in Banja Luka, CSB."

14             That was the day before, as we shall see from this document, the

15     SOS set up the barricades.  Now, do you remember attending the collegium

16     on the 2nd of April?

17        A.   I didn't attend.  I wasn't a member of the collegium of CSBs.  I

18     was a member of the professional council.

19        Q.   All right.  So that was entirely for -- it wasn't an expanded, as

20     it were, meeting.  It was just the --

21        A.   That's correct.

22             MS. KORNER:  Now, if we go, please, in the English to page 3, and

23     in the B/C/S to the second page --

24        Q.   This document, which went out under Zupljanin's name, talks,

25     under 2, of the "erection of the barricades at the approaches to Banja

Page 7599

 1     Luka, and then the town itself, by members of the Serbian Defence Forces

 2     who presented Banja Luka municipality Crisis Staff with certain

 3     conditions, which were accepted after lengthy discussions."

 4             And then one of the conditions was that the application of the

 5     Law on Internal Affairs begin immediately and that insignia envisaged by

 6     this law be introduced and solemn declarations signed.  "All these

 7     activities must be carried out and concluded by 6 April ..."

 8             And then:

 9             "The officer will distribute berets and insignia for active

10     police workers at the professional collegium, as well as special a number

11     of forms for solemn declaration which workers will sign the same day

12     before the SJB chief or another person authorised by the SJB chief.  I

13     would like to remind you the text of the solemn declaration is identical

14     to that of the solemn declaration in the pervious Law on Internal

15     Affairs."

16             I want to come back to the question of the SOS.  But the solemn

17     declaration which we discussed and briefly before when we were looking at

18     the personnel in the SJB, did you yourself have to sign such a

19     declaration?

20        A.   According to the law, yes.

21        Q.   And did you?

22        A.   I think I did.  I most probably did.  I can't remember exactly,

23     but I think so.

24        Q.   This order says that the workers have to sign before you or

25     another person authorised by you.  Did your workers in the SJBs and in

Page 7600

 1     the police stations which came under your authority, did they sign in

 2     front of you?

 3        A.   Not in front of me.

 4        Q.   But -- I mean, it says here "before the SJB chief."

 5             Did you authorise someone else?

 6        A.   I visited the police stations and I was present at a meeting of

 7     the crime police in certain organisational units, and I informed them of

 8     the task.  We called people in accordance with the law, asked them to

 9     sign a solemn declaration, and we said we should continue working as we

10     had to date.  Those who wanted to sign the document did so.  They signed

11     it later in front of their leaders, and those who didn't wanted to sign,

12     well, that was a matter of their goodwill.

13        Q.   But those who didn't want to sign, as we shall see later, there

14     was no question but that they could not stay in their jobs, was there?

15        A.   Well, in a document, it said that those who didn't sign would be

16     dismissed.  Employment would be terminated for them.

17        Q.   And is that what happened?

18        A.   I don't know what the procedure was.  It was the department for

19     legal and personnel affairs in the CSB that was responsible for these

20     matters.

21        Q.   All right.  But as we saw earlier today, when Mr. Riling didn't

22     sign, he was no longer allowed to work there, was he?

23        A.   Well, it's not that he couldn't.  He left of his own free will.

24     He got up, he left the office.  He said -- or he told me, I don't want to

25     work here anymore and he left.  Even if I asked him to remain, to

Page 7601

 1     continue working with us, even if I said that nothing was going to

 2     change, that we weren't going to get involved with politics -- well,

 3     there were three or four employee who got up and left.  All the others

 4     signed the document in front of their superiors.  And I think the

 5     statements were sent to this department for legal and personnel affairs

 6     within the CSB, and it was for that department to deal with these signed

 7     documents then.

 8        Q.   All right.  Now can we look, please, at the Glas article about

 9     the events of the 3rd of April.

10             MS. KORNER:  Could we look, please, at a document, P53.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, while the document is coming up on

12     the screen, can I ask a question to the witness.

13             Mr. Witness, you said several people for -- I think you said

14     immediately stood up when they were asked to sign.  They refused and they

15     left, and they said we don't want to work here anymore.  Could you tell

16     me why they reacted this way?  What was the problem there?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That station commander in Budzak,

18     Mr. Vinko, the policemen knew in advance that this declaration would be

19     up for signing, and then he stood up and said, I'm not going to sign.

20     Those who share my opinion should stand up and walk out with me.  Three

21     or four workers did stand up and walked out.  One of them approached me

22     and said, Chief, are criminals going to be working together with us in

23     the service?  If you can guarantee they won't, we'll stay.  And it was

24     about Croats.  And I said, As long as I am chief, criminals won't be

25     working with us in the service.

Page 7602

 1             So a lot of Croats and Muslims did stay on at this station.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You didn't explain to me why this solemn

 3     declaration triggered this reaction.  That's what I want to know.

 4             Why did this solemn declaration made those people leave their

 5     jobs?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only tell you my opinion.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... know your

 8     opinion.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think it's because in

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina the multi-party elections resulted in ethnic rifts

11     and ethnic tensions escalated also in the ranks of people who joined the

12     service and who were sensitive to these ethnic matters and that was the

13     reason.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  All right.

16        Q.   This is the Glas article, virtually additional on what happened

17     in Banja Luka in -- on the 3rd of April.  I wanted you to look, please,

18     first of all -- well, first I should ask you, I think you saw this at the

19     time it was published, didn't you?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   First of all, can we look in the English, it's on the well, I

22     suppose... sorry.  Before we look at specific things.

23             When you were arrived in Banja Luka this morning -- this morning.

24     That morning, were you stopped at the barricades?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7603

 1        Q.   Did you recognise any of the people who were at the barricades?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And when you were stopped, what did the men -- first of all, how

 4     many -- can you remember how many men were at the barricade?

 5        A.   In my estimate, around ten.

 6        Q.   All right.  And were they armed?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what did they want when they stopped you?

 9        A.   They asked to see my vehicle registration papers and my driving

10     licence.  They wanted to check on me.

11        Q.   Did you hand them over?

12        A.   No, I did not.

13        Q.   Were you in civilian clothes or in uniform?

14        A.   Civilian.

15        Q.   So when you refused to hand over your driving licence -- oh, I'm

16     sorry.

17             I should ask you this.  Did you tell them who you were?

18        A.   No, I did not.

19        Q.   When you refused to hand over your driving licence and your

20     registration papers, what -- what did they say, or do?

21        A.   They were aggressive.  One of them trained his rifle at me, and I

22     said, Shoot, if you think that's the solution.

23             Then another one sort of pushed his rifle away and said, Come on,

24     you're going to shoot the chief.  One of them obviously recognised me.

25        Q.   And did they let you go after that?

Page 7604

 1        A.   Yes.  The one who pushed away the rifle of the other one said,

 2     Go on.

 3        Q.   Did you ask them who they were and what they were doing?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did they tell you?

 6        A.   Yes, they did.

 7        Q.   What did they tell you?

 8        A.   They said they were Serbian Defence Forces and they were running

 9     checks.

10        Q.   Did you -- had you ever -- had you heard of the Serbian Defence

11     Forces before this?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you know what the Serbian Defence Forces were?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   And here were a group of armed men setting up barricades in

16     Banja Luka, and you were a police officer.  What was -- what did you do

17     after that?

18        A.   When I got a report from the operative duty officer around

19     3.00 a.m. that there were armed group of men taking over the main

20     features in the town, I immediately informed the President of the

21     municipality and told him to go to his work immediately.  He asked me to

22     join him and that's how I headed towards the Assembly, joined the

23     President, and told him what was going on.  What had happened.

24        Q.   Right.  Why wasn't the first thing you did to ring up

25     Stojan Zupljanin and say, There appear to be armed men in the streets

Page 7605

 1     setting up barricades.  What are we going to do?

 2        A.   We shared operative duty service within the CSB and it's implied,

 3     it goes without saying that he gets reports at the same time when I do.

 4        Q.   But I understand that.  But you got the report from the operative

 5     duty officer that there were these armed mean taking over the main

 6     features of town.  Why didn't you immediately ring Stojan Zupljanin and

 7     say, We need to coordinate our efforts about this, or something like

 8     that?

 9        A.   When I received that report, it was 3.00 a.m.  It went without

10     saying that the operative duty officer had done his job, and it was his

11     job to inform both him and me.  That's in his job description.

12        Q.   So you informed the President of the municipality.  Is that

13     Mr. Radic, Predrag Radic?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And so when you were stopped, this was around 3.00 a.m. in the

16     morning, was it?

17        A.   Maybe half an hour later, the time it took me to get dressed and

18     leave.

19        Q.   And you go and you meet the President of the municipality.  And

20     you join -- you go to the Assembly.

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   Were you prevented from reaching the Assembly?

23        A.   Only the stop at the check-point.  That was the only problem.

24        Q.   And where was the check-point that you were stopped at?

25        A.   At the bridge by the university, where the students' hostel is.

Page 7606

 1        Q.   When you got to the Assembly building, was Mr. Radic there?

 2        A.   Yes, he was already there.

 3        Q.   And who else was there?

 4        A.   He was alone.

 5        Q.   All right.  Where was Mr. Zupljanin?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   All right.  So there's you and Mr. Radic and no one else.  What

 8     do you decide to do?

 9        A.   Well, then President Radic invited other people that he thought

10     should be invited.  He left the office occasionally meeting other people.

11     Then he convened some sort of meeting, and it was agreed at that meeting

12     that he should negotiate with those people and see what they want.

13        Q.   At any stage, was Mr. Zupljanin involved in this, as head of the

14     CSB in Banja Luka?

15        A.   Well, there were a number of meetings, and he attended these

16     meetings where we discussed how to deal with this.

17        Q.   At that stage, on the 3rd of April, how many police officers were

18     there in Banja Luka?  I think you were asked about this in interview.

19        A.   I think it's verifiable exactly how many policemen there were.

20     260 -- 250, I think.  I'm not sure, really, about the number.

21        Q.   But because you were asked about this in your first interview,

22     you went and did a check.  And I can show you the page in the interview

23     where you dealt with this, if you like.

24             But did you tell the investigator that:

25             "There were 338 active employees under my command."

Page 7607

 1             It's page 6 of the interview of 2004.  Does that figure sound

 2     correct to you?

 3        A.   Yes, I think that's the exact number which includes the employees

 4     who were not police officers.

 5        Q.   Oh, I see.  So by active employees, you're including the clerical

 6     staff and people like that, are you?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   All right.  So you think now it was about 200 -- I'm sorry,

 9     just ... 250, 260 actual police officers.  All right.

10             And how many -- you had seen about ten men at the barricade that

11     you were stopped at.  Roughly how many members of the SOS were there from

12     the information you got?

13        A.   I didn't stay long at the President's office.  Just until he said

14     there would be negotiating.  I went to the public security station.  I

15     convened my associates, and they informed me that there were around 200

16     armed men around town.

17        Q.   Did it occur to you -- at that stage telephone Mr. Zupljanin and

18     say that perhaps reinforcements ought to be got?  Because he had the

19     power, didn't he, to order the SJBs under his command to provide police

20     officers?

21        A.   We were there together at the meeting, with President Radic.  And

22     on the basis of information we had, I was of the same opinion, that we

23     must look for a political solution, that it can't be solved by use of

24     force.

25        Q.   Why a political solution when there were armed men in the streets

Page 7608

 1     of Banja Luka?

 2        A.   Because they were armed, precisely.

 3        Q.   Right.  And in normal circumstances, would you, the police force,

 4     allow armed men to set up barricades in Banja Luka?

 5        A.   If the circumstances had been normal, those people would not have

 6     had -- not have been armed, and they wouldn't even have had a chance to

 7     put up a barricade.  But the circumstances were not normal.

 8        Q.   In the -- in Banja Luka you had the headquarters, didn't you, of

 9     the -- what was then the 6th Krajina Corps of the JNA?  The 5th Krajina

10     Corps.  Yeah, 5th.

11        A.   Yes.  But it was before the adoption of the constitution.  I

12     don't know exactly when that 5th Krajina Corps grew into the 1st Krajina

13     Corps.  In the times of Yugoslavia, it was the 5th Krajina Corps.  But I

14     think by the time we are discussing, the 1st Krajina Corps had already

15     been established.

16             But I'm not quite sure about what I've just said.

17        Q.   Don't worry.  We know from other evidence that it wasn't

18     established until after the 12th of May.

19             Did anybody suggest that you should go to the army for assistance

20     in getting rid of these armed thugs in the street?

21        A.   I saw General Talic when he came to see President Radic at that

22     time, and I believe that's what they talked.

23        Q.   Did you -- so General Talic came to this meeting as well?

24        A.   No.  No, he was not at the meeting.  But it was during one of

25     those days, a few days before or after, I went to see President Radic.

Page 7609

 1     We often had these blitz meetings about the situation around town.  Once

 2     when I went to see him, I had to wait for his meeting with General Talic

 3     to finish.

 4        Q.   Well, I'm just trying to understand, and for the purposes of the

 5     Trial Chamber as well, why was that, given that this was the worse kind

 6     of breach of law and order that could take place, no one suggested doing

 7     anything else other than negotiate.

 8        A.   Well, I personally think that the police forces, the security

 9     forces were unable at that time to neutralise them.  Why they had not

10     been neutralize before, I don't really know, but I know the army was

11     involved in the negotiations, and General Kelecevic was present at one of

12     the meetings.

13        Q.   All right.  Did you at any stage ever get the feeling or the idea

14     from anything that was said - not the feeling, the idea - that this was a

15     politically organised and staged takeover?

16        A.   I would not put it that way.  The political scene in Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina was very volatile at the time.  There were very ugly

18     dispatches coming from the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina

19     and the Ministry of Interior that could have upset the citizens because

20     they were all published.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let look at, shall we, at the demands.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can we now look, please, at the demands of the SDS,

23     which I think you should find on page -- I'm not -- actually, I'm not

24     clear.  I forgot to mark this.

25        Q.   Can you see Serb -- the headline on the first page, "Serbian

Page 7610

 1     Defence Forces Proclamation"?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  And can we in the English -- can we in the English,

 4     please, go to the second page, please.

 5             It starts:

 6              "We Serbian patriot, members of the JNA, reservist, volunteers,

 7     citizens of Banja Luka ... organised in the SOS have decided on this step

 8     because of a new genocide against Serbian people and the failure of all

 9     mechanisms for the protection of the Serbian people."

10             And then it says, under that -- the demands.  We can move the

11     page up a little bit.

12             "The immediate enactment of a Law on Internal Affairs ...

13     immediate change of signs as well as the dismissal of all employees who

14     have shown in their work that they are the destroyers of Yugoslavia ...

15     JNA top command not to disband the Banja Luka Corps, arrest of war

16     profiteers and the publication of names ... the dismissal of staff in the

17     Jugobank in Banja Luka, the Privredna Bank, and Banja Luka Bank in order

18     to prevent a monetary strike.  We demand the dismissal in the post office

19     where there are managerial staff who voted against Yugoslavia."

20             The managerial staff who voted against Yugoslavia, in reality,

21     did that mean those who had voted in the -- the referendum on whether

22     Bosnia should be independent?

23        A.   I heard you, Madam Prosecutor, but I did not really understand

24     the question.

25        Q.   All right.  "We demand the dismissal of staff in the post office

Page 7611

 1     where there are managerial staff who voted against Yugoslavia ..."

 2             Does that mean managerial staff who voted in the referendum for

 3     Bosnia to be independent?

 4        A.   I really apologise, but I don't understand what you're asking.

 5        Q.   Okay.  The euphemism, there are managerial staff who voted

 6     against Yugoslavia, what does that mean?

 7        A.   I don't understand your inference.  How would the managerial

 8     board vote?  You vote at a referendum, not at the board.  Something wrong

 9     with the proposition.

10        Q.   All right.  If there was a manager in the post office or in the

11     Jugobank, or in the Privredna bank, who had voted in the referendum which

12     Serbs by and large did not vote in, for Bosnia to become independent, is

13     that what this demand refers to?

14        A.   Well, how are you supposed to establish or identify who voted

15     how?

16        Q.   I'm just asking if the reality, because you've lived in

17     Banja Luka most of -- well, worked in Banja Luka most of your life, is it

18     the people they were demanding should be sacked were Bosniaks.

19        A.   They were not all Bosniaks.  I know personally in the Banja Luka

20     Bank that Goran Pegan was the director.

21        Q.   All right.  Did he remain at the bank?

22        A.   Well, he did for a while, and then he was replaced.  The

23     managerial board decided about staffing and replacements.

24        Q.   All right.  But looking at this list of demands, they were all

25     political demands, weren't they?

Page 7612

 1        A.   Well, there are unreasonable demands here.  The demand to enforce

 2     the Law on Internal Affairs.  Of course, we're going enforce the Law on

 3     Internal Affairs.  They were asking us to do something which is our legal

 4     obligation that we are doing already, nor can anybody prevent us from

 5     enforcing the law.

 6             I just don't see the reason for putting this demand.

 7        Q.   All right.  That wasn't quite the question I asked.  Would you

 8     describe these demands that were made by this gang of armed men as

 9     political ones?

10        A.   Well, I would say these were the demands of people who turned up

11     there.  Somebody drafted them for them, and among them, there are

12     unreasonable demand, in my eyes.

13        Q.   All right.  And then at the end of the statement - sorry, we need

14     go to the next page in English - thank you.  No, that's not right.

15     Should be page 3.  Yeah, thank you.

16             At the end of the statement, amongst other things, the SOS says:

17     "We guarantee the complete safety of all Croats and Muslims and request

18     them to refrain from provocation."

19             What did you understand that to mean?

20        A.   Well, they seem to be placing themselves above the law, above the

21     authorities.  They can't guarantee anyone's security.  It's the security

22     forces who guarantee people's security.

23        Q.   All right.  Which is we started originally with this line of

24     questioning.

25             But what does "request them to refrain from provocation" mean?

Page 7613

 1        A.   I really don't know.

 2        Q.   All right.  Well, this negotiation takes place, and within a

 3     matter of hours, isn't that right, the -- all these -- what you call

 4     unreasonable, some of which are unreasonable demands, are accepted, are

 5     they not, by Mr. Radic?

 6        A.   I don't know what was accepted and what kind of negotiations they

 7     were.  I didn't take part in the negotiations or the follow-up talks,

 8     because they invited me only for ten minutes, when I was asked to do

 9     something specifically.  But how the process of negotiation went, I

10     really don't know, and how the demands were formulated.  I didn't take

11     part in any of that.

12        Q.   Well, isn't it -- but we can see, can't we, from this article

13     that and, indeed, when we get to the press conference we will see that

14     your name is mentioned.

15             But within hours, this is -- the 3rd of April, and on the same

16     day these demands have been accepted.  Did that surprise you at all?

17        A.   I should like to go back to the conclusions to be reminded what

18     the conclusions were.  The very fact that there were any surprises me,

19     let alone everything else.

20        Q.   All right.  Let's --

21        A.   Can you imagine somebody putting a gun to your face and ... would

22     you be surprised?

23        Q.   Let's have a look -- well, I don't know what you're saying there,

24     Mr. Tutus.  But when I say "weren't you surprised," weren't you surprised

25     that nobody even discussed overpowering this illegal group of men who

Page 7614

 1     were taking over the streets?

 2        A.   I am telling you that, at the time, the use of force against

 3     those people by the security services was not an option that was

 4     considered.  It would have been the beginning of a civilian -- of a civil

 5     war.

 6        Q.   Why?  These were -- their announcement said that these were

 7     Serbs.  Why would it have been a civil war?

 8        A.   Well, you don't have to have people of different ethnicity in

 9     order to have a civil war.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, let's have a look, please, at the -- at the

11     demands which were -- what was accepted.

12             MS. KORNER:  Page 4 in English, and it's the second page in the

13     B/C/S.  You can find that, I think.  It's the top left-hand side.

14             No, I think you need to move it to the B/C/S to the right,

15     slightly.  Well, before we move it.

16        Q.   In the top picture, do we see -- who do we see there?

17        A.   I can recognise President Radic.  It's not very clear.  Could it

18     be enlarged, please?

19             MS. KORNER:  The photograph on the top right.  Thanks.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see President Radic.  I

21     can also see Brdjanin.  I think this person here is Dr. Vukic.  And as

22     for the person to the left, or, rather, to the right, to Radic's right, I

23     can't recognise him.  It's a little obscure.

24        Q.   All right.  So Radic.  We can see, I think, Brdjanin in the white

25     shirt?

Page 7615

 1        A.   Right.

 2        Q.   And then the person furthest right, as we look at the photograph,

 3     is Vukic.  And then President Radic is next to Brdjanin, on the other

 4     side.  Is that right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Let's look at the demands.  Sorry, the acceptance of the demands.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to the left site of this newspaper

 8     article.  Yeah.  Just there.  And if we go -- yes.

 9        Q.   Is that -- can you see the part -- I hope this is the right part.

10     The law that the -- the resolutions which were accepted or the demands,

11     the Law on Internal Affairs will be fully enacted.  In order to keep

12     their jobs, all the current employees in the security service centre will

13     have to sign what is called a statement of loyalty here.

14             I think you have been through this.  Whether it's called a

15     statement of loyalty, or an oath of loyalty, or a solemn declaration,

16     it's -- we're all talking about the same thing.

17             Is that right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.  But the legal term is solemn declaration.

19        Q.   All right.  Apart from that, staff will be reorganised.  People

20     loyal to the Serbian Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina will be appointed

21     to key position.  The demand was also accepted to request the Presidency

22     of the SFRY and the General Staff of the JNA to reinforce the Banja Luka

23     Corps.  And then tribute was paid to the soldiers and officers.

24             Agreement also reached on the demand to start the prosecution of

25     all war profiteers and thieves and to publish all criminal offences, blah

Page 7616

 1     blah.  The Crisis Staff also passed a decision to dismiss the directors

 2     of the Banja Luka bank and the Jugobank by 6th of April, accepted the

 3     demand to dismiss all post office staff who had voted against Yugoslavia

 4     by the 10th of April.

 5             And so on and so forth.

 6             So, without any hesitation, the negotiations apparently have

 7     resulted in the acceptance of these demands.  Do you agree?

 8        A.   Could you please repeat that last part.

 9        Q.   The negotiations have resulted, it would seem, in complete

10     capitulation to the SOS demands, including sacking people for no other

11     reason than they voted against Yugoslavia?

12        A.   If that's what it says in this article, well, there is nothing I

13     can add.  The person who compiled this, who wrote the article, well, I

14     don't know anything about this.  I didn't participate in the conclusions,

15     and I don't know about the sources.  I can just tell you about things I

16     participated in, about the truth.  But when it comes to assessing an

17     article that appeared in a newspaper, I really don't think this is

18     something I can do.

19        Q.   Well, when you saw this article, as you told Mr. Sebire you did

20     at the time, didn't you think of saying to anybody, How come they

21     accepted all these demands?

22        A.   Well, I don't think I said anything.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, let's look at the second part of this article

24     that I want to ask you about, which is the Crisis Staff, that was --

25             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, as you move into the second part, would,

Page 7617

 1     this be a convenient point to take the break?

 2             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   Mr. Tutus, still on the same article, can you go to that -- in

11     the B/C/S, can we move that box in the middle page across slightly.  It's

12     headed: "Crisis Staff."

13             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, so we get -- no, we need to get the whole

14     thing in, which it isn't at the moment.  It's too big.  And for, in

15     English, we need to go to the, I don't know, sixth page.  Yeah.

16        Q.   It says:

17             "In Banja Luka, after the blockade of the city and presentation

18     of their demands by the SOS, a Crisis Staff was formed whose President is

19     Predrag Radic, President of the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly.

20     Predrag Mitrakovic is also on the staff on behalf of the Banja Luka

21     municipality."

22             Can you tell us who he was, Mr. Tutus?

23        A.   Predrag Mitrakovic was the secretary of the Secretariat for

24     Urbanism and Utilities in the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka.

25        Q.    Then:

Page 7618

 1             "... representing the Security Services Centre is its chief,

 2     Stojan Zupljanin, and then" -- you, "chief of the public security

 3     station."

 4             Now, was it discussed with you that you were going to be a member

 5     of this Crisis Staff?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Not at all?

 8        A.   Not at all.

 9        Q.   Well, when you saw the newspaper the next day and you saw your

10     name as a member of the Crisis Staff, what did you do about it.

11        A.   Nothing.  I attached absolutely no importance to the fact.  No

12     one ever appointed me through an official document to state organ of any

13     kind.  I thought that this was illegal.  In my opinion it wasn't

14     something I should really concern myself with.

15        Q.   But I understand that, Mr. Tutus.  But on the face of it, the

16     public were being told you were a member of the Crisis Staff.  Did you

17     speak to Mr. Radic or Mr. Zupljanin about it?

18        A.   I didn't.  I didn't speak to Mr. Zupljanin about the subject.  I

19     went to meetings with President Radic, and I would attend those meetings

20     for ten or 15 minutes.  We never spoke about the conclusions, et cetera.

21     Quite simply, I didn't take this to be a regular body that I should take

22     into account, or with regard to which I should take decisions of any

23     kind.

24        Q.   But I'm just asking you, leave aside the other meetings you went

25     to with Mr. Radic and I'll come on to those a little later, but when

Page 7619

 1     you -- you told us a moment ago that you never were consulted about this.

 2     Did you really not feel that you should say to somebody, Why does my name

 3     appear in the newspaper as a member of a body about which I know nothing?

 4        A.   I'll repeat what I said.  I didn't ask anyone about this.  I

 5     thought this was without any value.  I wouldn't have achieved anything by

 6     acting in this way.  This had been published and that was the end of the

 7     story.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's go on with the other members.  Milorad Sajic,

 9     who was he?

10        A.   He was the commander of the TO Staff.

11        Q.   All right.  And then Milos Kesic and Miroslav Vesic.  They were

12     apparently also connected with the TOs; is that right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   Then on behalf of the justice department, Mr. Puvacic and

15     Jovo Rosic.  Did you know both of them?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then Colonel Kelecevic.  What was his --

18        A.   Yes, he was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Krajina Corps.

19        Q.   All right.  Bogdan Subotic from the Banja Luka Corps.  Is that

20     the Subotic who became the minister of defence?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And then Dr. Vukic whom you identified in the photograph.  And

23     Nenad --

24        A.   He was the SDS president in Banja Luka.

25        Q.   All right.  And Nenad Stevandic?

Page 7620

 1        A.   At the time, I knew him as a student of medicine.

 2        Q.   It says on "behalf of the political parties."

 3        A.   I don't know on behalf of which political party he was present.

 4     I have no such information.

 5        Q.   All right.  Was there something called a Sokol Society in

 6     Banja Luka?

 7        A.   There was a Sokol Society.  I'm not a historian, but I think it

 8     was at the time of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.  This Sokol Society was

 9     dismantled, and then during this period of time it was re-animated.  The

10     Sokol Society came to life again.  I know that the press wrote about it,

11     Mandic was apparently at the head of that society.

12        Q.   And did Mr. Stevandic --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Stevandic, interpreter's correction.

14             MS. KORNER:  Right.  I'm sorry.  Mr. Stevandic, yeah.

15        Q.   Did Nenad Stevandic go on to work for the SNB in Banja Luka?

16        A.   I'm not aware of that.

17        Q.   And then Radoslav Brdjanin represents the autonomous regions

18     assembly, and the Serbian Defence Forces representatives are firstly

19     Ilija Milinkovic.  Did you know who he was?

20        A.   At the time, no, I didn't.

21        Q.   Did you subsequently discover?

22        A.   Subsequently, I discovered that he worked in the company that was

23     called Metal.

24        Q.   Slobodan Popovic?

25        A.   I don't know that person, and I still don't know that person

Page 7621

 1     today.

 2        Q.   Aleksandar Tolimir?

 3        A.   Similarly, I don't know that person.

 4        Q.   Ranko Dubocanin.

 5        A.   The first time I saw him was when we were there on the first day,

 6     when I was with President Radic, then a person wearing glasses appeared.

 7     Later I asked who he was.  They said that it was Slobodan Dubocanin's

 8     brother.  That's how I know him, but I didn't really know him at all.

 9        Q.   Is that the same Slobodan Dubocanin who became part of the

10     special police unit of Banja Luka?

11        A.   I don't know whether he was a member of the special police unit

12     in Banja Luka, but I do know that he was in uniform and that he was a

13     member of some sort of a military formation.  I believe he wore

14     camouflage unit [as interpreted] and I think he was a member of the

15     Territorial Defence, but I'm not quite sure which unit he was engaged in.

16        Q.   All right.  Was Slobodan Dubocanin somebody you knew personally?

17        A.   I didn't know him personally.  But later on, as time passed by,

18     he would appear on occasion.  I asked about him, since he is from

19     Banja Luka, and my wife told him that he was a year or two above her in

20     school.  That's all I know about him.

21        Q.   Did you hear anything about him going to Kotor Varos during 1992?

22        A.   I didn't hear about that.  I know nothing about that.

23             MS. KORNER:  Then can we look, please, at the next box in the

24     B/C/S.  It will have to go over a bit to the right -- move the document

25     towards the left.  Yeah, the box under the picture.  No, no, the box

Page 7622

 1     under the picture of Brdjanin and all that.  Yes, there, stop.  Stop.

 2     Okay.  Can we highlight that bit.

 3        Q.   All right.  Is that headed "Peace in the Interests of all Three

 4     Nations"?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And it says:

 7             "They are replying to a reporter's question about what to do with

 8     the security services centre's employee who did not sign the statement of

 9     loyalty to the Serbian Republic ..."  Again, they're calling it the

10     statement of loyalty.  "... by the 6th of April, Stojan Zupljanin briefly

11     said, 'They will not be able to continue working.'"

12             And was that something that you heard him say?

13        A.   I didn't hear that, but I have read it here.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MS. KORNER:  And, finally, on this document, can we look, please,

16     in the B/C/S at the third page, and in the English translation, on the

17     ninth page.

18             It's the box at the -- at the -- at the bottom left-hand side.

19     So we need to -- yeah.

20        Q.    "From hour to hour, the proclamation of the Serbian Defence

21     Forces was read out over radio Banja Luka at 9.00 and the demands laid

22     out in seven points.  The President of the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly

23     schedules the Crisis Staff session at 11.00."

24             MS. KORNER:  And then if we go to the next page in the English,

25     at the bottom:

Page 7623

 1        Q.   "At 11.00, representatives of the SOS [sic] come to the

 2     municipality Assembly where they agreed positions with [sic] the Crisis

 3     Staff."

 4             So within a matter of a very few hours, according to this

 5     timetable, those demands were acceded to.  Do you agree?

 6        A.   If things are as stated here, then that was done a very few hours

 7     later.

 8        Q.   And there's -- as a police officer of considerable experience and

 9     authority, you took no part in -- in any of these negotiations.  Is that

10     what you're saying?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   All right.  Yes.  Thank you, that's all I want to ask on this

13     document.

14             Now before we move on, you say you weren't a member of this

15     Crisis Staff that was set up to deal with the SOS.  Were you, however, a

16     member of what you called the War Presidency?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Of the Banja Luka Municipal Assembly?

19        A.   That's right.

20        Q.   Was Predrag Radic the -- the President of this War Presidency?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   There was yourself.  Can you recall who else was -- was -- was a

23     member of this?

24        A.   Well, mostly they were people who had positions in the town

25     administration.  I think the commander of the TO defence was also a

Page 7624

 1     member.  I think that the district prosecutor and the President of the

 2     district court were members.  As far as my memory serves me, I think that

 3     they were members.

 4        Q.   All right.  And the Municipal War Presidency was a different body

 5     from the Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff, then War Presidency?

 6        A.   The War Presidency in Banja Luka municipality worked according to

 7     the statute.  It had its legislative powers -- powers according to the

 8     legislation and rules.

 9        Q.   And --

10        A.   As for this War Presidency for the region, I don't know on the

11     basis of which they worked, whether there were any regulations governing

12     their work, what their competences were.

13        Q.   Yes.  But -- you were aware that there was such a thing, because,

14     as we'll see later, Zupljanin mentioned it on a number of occasions,

15     didn't he?

16        A.   He may have mentioned it, but I can't recall all these details

17     now.  I read in the press that something like that exists.  I can't say I

18     didn't know that the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina existed.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tutus, can you tell us when exactly you were

20     appointed a member of the War Presidency?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1991, I was elected chief of the

22     station, just after the multi-party elections, and, at that time,

23     according to the statute of the municipality that body was called Council

24     for National Defence, under the legislation prevailing at the time.

25             Later, when the immediate threat of war was proclaimed, that I

Page 7625

 1     believe that was in 1992, that body was just renamed into War Presidency.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm sorry, Mr. Tutus.  I was under the impression

 3     that the War Presidencies were the bodies that succeeded the Crisis

 4     Staffs.  But am I wrong?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are wrong.  That wasn't so in

 6     Banja Luka.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So did the Crisis Staff persist and remain in

 8     place in Banja Luka?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no Crisis Staff in

10     Banja Luka, apart from what we were discussing today, and I don't think

11     it's the same thing.  If you wish me, I can repeat.  In 1991, I received

12     an appointment as member of the Council for National Defence, which was

13     later renamed War Presidency.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand and I did pick up your answer just a

15     while ago.

16             But tell us, what was the relation, then, between the

17     War Presidency and -- and -- I was going to ask you what was the relation

18     between the War Presidency and the Crisis Staff, but your answer is that

19     there was no Crisis Staff.

20             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What were the functions of the War Presidencies

22     in Banja Luka, while you were a member of it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Remember, the War Presidency

24     adopted some conclusions and decisions and reviewed the security

25     situations.  I, for instance, had the job of reporting to them about the

Page 7626

 1     security situation.  Affairs which were urgent and had to deal with were

 2     decided upon by the War Presidency.  However, these decisions were

 3     subject, ultimately, to verification by the Assembly, when the Assembly

 4     managed to meet.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   This is what I was going ask you next, you see.  The

 7     War Presidency was supposed to exist only if the Assembly couldn't meet.

 8     But the Assembly continued to meet, didn't it, during 1992.

 9        A.   You're right.  The Assembly did meet.  But I didn't convene

10     Assembly meetings.  I don't know if it was able to meet when they needed

11     it to.

12        Q.   This is what I'm asking you about.  You say that you would report

13     on -- on -- to the War Presidency about the security situation and

14     decisions were made by the War Presidency.  But if the Assembly could

15     meet, why weren't those decisions being taken by the Assembly?

16        A.   I don't know that.  I know that under the documents of the

17     Assembly, all these decisions had to be verified by the Assembly.  I

18     don't know why they did not convene the Assembly instead of the

19     War Presidency.  But whenever I was required to brief or report to the

20     War Presidency, or the Assembly, or whatever, I did.

21        Q.   No, I understand that.  But what I'm asking you is whether you

22     are able to assist us as to whether, as I am asking you about, the

23     Assembly itself was actually continuing to meet during 1992 when this

24     so-called War Presidency was also meeting.

25             If you don't know the answer, then say so.

Page 7627

 1        A.   I know that the Assembly, for the most part, operated.  For a

 2     short while, there were no meetings.  In fact, there were few meetings of

 3     the War Presidency.  I don't know why they did not convene the Assembly

 4     instead of the War Presidency.

 5        Q.   And was it the -- could the War Presidency -- could Mr. Radic, as

 6     the President of the War Presidency, give orders to you as -- as a police

 7     officer?

 8        A.   No, he could not.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Tutus, you told us that you didn't pay any

10     attention to your membership of the Crisis Staff.  You have more or less

11     said the Crisis Staff didn't really exist.

12             We saw that Mr. Zupljanin was your chief.  Did -- was also a

13     member of this Crisis Staff.  Do I take it, then, that he considered as,

14     well -- considered as well that this -- that Crisis Staff and its

15     membership was of no importance at all?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot say this.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  All right.

19        Q.   That's all that I want to ask you about that.

20             Let move on to a different matter.  Let us start on the topic of

21     the special police.

22             Can you have a look, please, at, first of all, document number

23     99.  Yeah, 65 ter 99.

24             MS. KORNER:  English.

25        Q.   Now, this document is signed and stamped by Vojo Kupresanin.  You

Page 7628

 1     knew who Vojo Kupresanin was, did you?

 2        A.   I know that.

 3        Q.   And it's a decision of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of

 4     Krajina, dated the 27th of April, on the formation of a special purpose

 5     police detachment which is to be formed within the Banja Luka Security

 6     Services Centre.  And then it sets out how many people, and then up.

 7             Did you become aware of this decision made by the Assembly of the

 8     Autonomous Region.

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Not at all?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   All right.  So at no stage, because, as you know, the special

13     police detachment was formed, did -- were you ever told that -- by

14     Zupljanin that this was as a result of the Assembly decision?

15        A.   I cannot remember.  I don't think so.  We didn't even discuss it.

16             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we look then next, please, at P552.

17             Now, that's an article in Glas, two days after this decision.

18     And I think it's the one that is -- is it -- in the middle of the page.

19     That one.

20        Q.   Does that say:  "Special detachments to be formed soon"?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   Yeah.  And it's an interview with Stojan Zupljanin.  And what he

23     says is that the primary function of the special detachment to be formed

24     within the security service --

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, if a -- for the --

Page 7629

 1             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- for the benefit of the witness, if the document

 3     can be taken down on the Serbian, because it shows the different article

 4     from the one that you are citing right now.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Oh I see, it's the one above -- yes, sorry, it's the

 6     one below.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, it's the one below.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  sorry, you're quite right.  Thank you.  And

 9     have you to move across slightly.  So you have to just shrink it slightly

10     so you can see the text.

11        Q.   "'The primary function of the special detachment to be formed

12     within the Security Service Centre, in accordance with the decision

13     brought forward [sic] yesterday by the Assembly of the Autonomous Region

14     of Krajina will be anti-sabotage and anti-terrorist combat,' stated

15     Stojan Zupljanin, chief of the Banja Luka CSB."

16             And then it goes on to say that -- as to the Serbian Defence

17     Forces, SOS, which were placed under the jurisdiction of the Security

18     Services Centre by the Krajina Assembly decisions, Zupljanin said that a

19     large number of these units members, being reliable and experienced

20     fighters, would be tested for engagement in the special detachment whilst

21     other -- others would be assigned to the reserve police force."

22             And did you read this article?

23        A.   The last part you read, where is it?  Which paragraph?

24        Q.   About the SOS?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 7630

 1        Q.   Well, first of all, did you read this article at the time?

 2        A.   I probably did.  I can't remember all the things I read 15 years

 3     ago.  But I suppose I did.

 4        Q.   And did you read Glas on a regular basis at that period?

 5        A.   Not really.

 6        Q.   And there, it said, according to Zupljanin, this is being formed

 7     as a result of the decision yesterday by the Assembly.  Which you said

 8     you hadn't realised.

 9             Does it -- does this now remind you that you did know that?

10        A.   I'm telling you, I didn't know.  Although this was published.

11     But I can't really say I read it on the same day.  But I'm not

12     questioning anything here.  If the press published it this way, I --

13     there's no reason for me to doubt it.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, then it says -- it talks about the SOS having

15     been placed under the jurisdiction of the Security Services Centre.

16             Now, given that you were in the same building as the CSB, were

17     you aware that the SOS had now been placed under the jurisdiction of the

18     CSB?

19        A.   I did not know that the SOS was placed under the jurisdiction of

20     the CSB, no.

21        Q.   Well --

22        A.   And I can't find this sentence that you read.  I -- I just can't

23     find it in the article.

24        Q.   Well, I'm going to have to ask for the assistance of one of the

25     Defence counsel, because I don't know where it is either.

Page 7631

 1        A.   [No interpretation].

 2        Q.   Well, that's helpful.

 3        A.   I can see one sentence here, which says:   "In this way, the SOS,

 4     S will practically disappear."

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It's the last paragraph in

 6     the first column on the left in Serbian.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see the sentence:  "SOS will

 8     practically cease to exist."

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   Sorry, it's the last sentence -- sorry?

11             MS. KORNER:  I'm going to have to ask for assistance.  Do the

12     words, as put in English, "As to the Serbian Defence Forces which were

13     placed under the jurisdiction of the Security Services Centre by the

14     Krajina Assembly decision."

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may of any assistance, it would appear that

16     this is the last paragraph of the -- of the -- of the previous -- on the

17     left side.  The last paragraph on the left side of this framed -- framed

18     article.

19             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  Can we -- yes.

20        Q.   Do you see it now?

21        A.   Yes.  Now can I see it.

22        Q.   All right.  But --

23        A.   It says Zupljanin says that a large number of members of these

24     units will be tested.  And then it moves to the next paragraph.

25        Q.   Yeah, quite, but the -- no, no, can we stay where we are, please.

Page 7632

 1     Thank you.

 2             What I'm asking you about is the article says that the SOS were

 3     placed under the jurisdiction of the Security Services Centre.

 4        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I can't find it in the text.

 5        Q.   Well, this is for the nth time what I have been asking, somebody,

 6     if they can help.

 7             Is it not the first line of that last paragraph on that page?

 8     Which -- if you read that first sentence, under the word "Zupljanin,"

 9     which we can see in heavy type, does that not say:  "As to the Serbian

10     Defence Forces, which were placed under the jurisdiction of the Security

11     Services Centre ..."

12        A.   I see it.

13        Q.   Right.  Now --

14        A.   Yes, but there is a sentence after that.

15        Q.   Yes.  I -- look, Mr. Tutus, we're getting a bit buried here.  All

16     I want to know is are you telling the Court that, until you saw this

17     article, but you saw it because you're not sure, you did not know that

18     the SOS was now under the jurisdiction of the CSB?

19        A.   I did not know that.

20        Q.   Had you known this, what, if anything, would you have done?

21        A.   I wouldn't believe it.  I wouldn't have believed it.

22        Q.   And why was that?

23        A.   It doesn't make sense.

24        Q.   Yes.  Why doesn't it make sense?

25        A.   First of all, it doesn't make sense that the Assembly of the

Page 7633

 1     Autonomous Region Krajina establishes police units.  Police units may be

 2     set up only by the minister of interior, in keeping with the Law on

 3     Internal Affairs.

 4             Now, for the SOS to be placed under the control of the CSB, it

 5     says under that jurisdiction, that is something I could not believe.

 6        Q.   And that's what I'm asking you.  Why?

 7        A.   Well, it's not lawful.

 8        Q.   So that's the only reason that you couldn't believe that?

 9        A.   It's not in keeping with the law and it's not in conformity with

10     the procedure.  It's impossible to admit that entire unit into the CSB.

11     I just can't accept that.

12        Q.   All right.  What about the fact that -- except if this is

13     correct, and this is what Zupljanin is apparently saying to the

14     newspaper, these men, the SOS, were people who had behaved illegally by

15     setting up barricades and threatening people.

16             Is that something that might worry you, if they were taken into

17     the CSB?

18        A.   Well, I simply can't accept that anyone who had been prosecuted

19     or had a criminal record or charges filed against them could be admitted

20     into the Security Services.  It's simply not in keeping with the law.

21        Q.   But do you mean that you were aware that some of the members of

22     the SOS had criminal records?

23        A.   My associates informed me when I arrived at work that day that

24     there were people among that group who were known to the police as having

25     been convicted before and people prone to crime.

Page 7634

 1        Q.   And those people who your associates recognised should never have

 2     been allowed to become part of the CSB.  Is that what you're saying?

 3        A.   Well, people with criminal records cannot be admitted under the

 4     law into the Ministry of Interior.

 5        Q.   Were any of the other people, to your knowledge, who had erected

 6     the barricades and -- and threatened people, were they ever prosecuted?

 7        A.   Well, information reached me from the CID that there were people

 8     among them, people among those on the barricades, who had been prosecuted

 9     before.

10        Q.   I understand that.  But do you agree that what happened in

11     Banja Luka on the 3rd of April, by these barricades being put up and

12     these armed men being in the streets, was an illegal activity?

13        A.   Well, it certainly doesn't fit into the prevailing legislation.

14        Q.   That, I think, is an understatement.  But -- however, would you

15     have expected that people who had behaved like this would be prosecuted?

16        A.   We prosecuted them.

17        Q.   Who?

18        A.   The public security station Banja Luka documented all the

19     criminal acts by SOS members and filed reports with the competent

20     prosecutor's offices.

21        Q.   I just want to make sure, this is the SOS as opposed to the

22     special police?

23        A.   Well, I'm talking about the SOS and the special police, both of

24     them.

25        Q.   Well, let's go back to what this article says.  From what you're

Page 7635

 1     saying, what Zupljanin says about these people "being reliable and

 2     experienced fighters who would be tested for engagement in the special

 3     detachment," you found, to say the at least, to be a remarkable

 4     statement?

 5        A.   It's possible that he had some information about individuals or

 6     groups or larger groups who had been to war before.  There was a war in

 7     Croatia, and maybe they had experience from that theatre of war.

 8        Q.   All right.  Yes, well, that's all I want to ask you about that

 9     particular article.

10             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry is it not an exhibit?  No.  Yes, it is.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What's the number?  I've lost track of it.

12             MS. KORNER:  It was P --

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- 5.

14             MS. KORNER:  -- 552.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  552, yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It is exhibit --

17             MS. KORNER:  No, I know.  Yes, I know.  Thank you.

18             The numbering is so askew ... all right, yes.  Can we look,

19     please, at document 111, 65 ter 111.

20        Q.   Now, this is addressed to -- it's from the General Trade

21     Association of Small Businessmen in Banja Luka.  It's addressed to the

22     municipal Crisis Staff.

23             MS. KORNER:  And if we turn over to the second page in both the

24     English and B/C/S.  Yeah, can we look at -- exactly.  Can we look at

25     the -- to whom it was delivered?  Delivered --

Page 7636

 1        Q.   Firstly did you know the gentleman who signed it, Mr. Kulenovic

 2     and Mr. Slavko Prosan?

 3        A.   Kulenovic, I think I know him if it's the Kulenovic who was the

 4     director of a metallurgy school in Banja Luka.  But as for the other

 5     person, no, I don't know him.

 6        Q.   And one -- it's addressed -- delivered to, rather, from the

 7     addressee which is the municipal Crisis Staff.  The executive council of

 8     the autonomous region.  The president of the association of the

 9     municipality, the executive council, and chief of the Banja Luka Security

10     Services Centre and chief of the municipal public security stations.

11             Now, does that mean that you would have got this document?

12        A.   I don't remember the document, but perhaps I did receive it.  But

13     here it says to the heads of the SJBs, so it was addressed to number of

14     municipalities.  That's how I interpret this.

15        Q.   Right.  But would you have been one of them?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   If we go back to the front -- the first page on each.

18             It's a complaint about -- what it says in the third paragraph,

19     extortion, vandalism, and the fact that it's increased and it's becoming

20     more brutal.

21             Now, did you do anything about these complaints?

22        A.   I can't remember individual cases.  It is true that there were

23     such occurrences in the territory of the Banja Luka SJB, and we took

24     certain measures.  We shed light on cases, filed reports, arrested

25     individuals.  I'd probably forward this to the crime service for further

Page 7637

 1     processing.

 2        Q.   The real question I want to ask you about this in the light of

 3     your answers.  You say you don't know anything about a municipal Crisis

 4     Staff, just a municipal War Presidency.  But a month later, this

 5     association is addressing this document to the municipal Crisis Staff.

 6             Now, I -- going back to Judge Harhoff's questions, wasn't it --

 7     in this early part of 1992, wasn't the War Presidency in fact the Crisis

 8     Staff, which later became the War Presidency?

 9        A.   As far as I understand matters, the Crisis Staff in Banja Luka

10     didn't exist.  There was no such staff.  Someone might have used one name

11     or a different name for it.  But far as I know, there was no Crisis Staff

12     in Banja Luka.

13        Q.   All right.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in the light of the fact that he

15     accepts that it was addressed to him, he almost certainly received it,

16     may I ask that this be marked and admitted.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P1079, Your Honour.

20             MS. KORNER:  Can we now then move, please -- later on that month.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, could I ask a question.

22             Mr. Tutus - thank you - are you familiar -- you are familiar, of

23     course, with the term "Crisis Staff" being used other than in Banja Luka

24     when you say it didn't exist?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm familiar with the term

Page 7638

 1     "Crisis Staff" and the term was used in certain municipalities.

 2             I'm familiar with that term.  I agree.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  And I'll try and -- is it possible that, in general

 4     usage of the term, that the word "Crisis Staff" was applied to a

 5     variety -- to arrangements such as you say existed in Banja Luka as a

 6     sort of generic or general term?  Is that a possibility, in terms of

 7     general usage by other persons?

 8             If you didn't understand my question, I will try and rephrase it.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please rephrase it.

10             JUDGE HALL:  What I'm trying to get an understanding of is

11     putting the answers that you would were previously given, especially the

12     answers that you gave to Judge Harhoff a while ago, in terms of the

13     impression that we have developed so far, and I'm only asking this,

14     whether generally speaking, the word "Crisis Staff" may have come to be

15     used as a sort of a catch-all phrase to -- to encompass even the type of

16     arrangement that you say existed in Banja Luka.

17             Do you understand?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have the War Presidency in

19     mind?

20             JUDGE HALL:  No.  I am thinking of the -- what pre-dated the

21     War Presidency.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, I haven't

23     understood you.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I'll let you go.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave --

Page 7639

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Ms. Korner.

 2             MS. KORNER:  May I -- I can try one more time.

 3        Q.   I think what you're being asked, Mr. Tutus, is this.  You call

 4     the body to which you belonged and to which Mr. Radic was the president

 5     the War Presidency.  Is it possible that the general public believed it

 6     to be called the Crisis Staff?

 7        A.   I would sooner say that the Crisis Staff of the Krajina region

 8     headed by Brdjanin -- well, I'd say that the public thought that was the

 9     Crisis Staff.  As far as I know, the public at large didn't think that

10     the Banja Luka municipality had a Crisis Staff.  I think that they had in

11     mind the Crisis Staff headed by Brdjanin.  The Crisis Staff of which

12     Brdjanin was the president.  He tended to appear more frequently in

13     public, so I think that's the case.

14        Q.   All right.  So you've -- but -- so you've no explanation as to

15     why this group of shopkeepers was addressing this document to the

16     municipal Crisis Staff, as opposed to the regional Crisis Staff.

17        A.   I have no explanation for that.

18        Q.   We're moving to the 13th of May, when the -- there was this

19     parade in Banja Luka of the police.  Were you, did you attend the parade

20     as an observer?

21        A.   I was present with my wife.  I was quite simply there amongst the

22     citizens.

23        Q.   In a moment, I will ask you to watch the video which had you a

24     chance to watch before.  Was Mico Stanisic also present at that parade?

25        A.   I think so.

Page 7640

 1        Q.   I'm going to ask to you watch it and we may stop it from time to

 2     time.  I have forgotten what the number is now.

 3             MS. KORNER:  It's 02279 -- 65 ter 2794.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MS. KORNER:  Can we just pause for a moment.

 6        Q.   These vehicles, were these normal police vehicles or were they

 7     specific to the special police?

 8        A.   These are military vehicles, in my opinion.  They're used by the

 9     army.

10        Q.   All right.  But are they being, in fact, driven by people in

11     police uniform?

12        A.   I can't see.

13        Q.   All right.

14        A.   But I assume that it's the police, although I can't see the

15     uniforms.

16             It looks like a military uniform to me, a blue one.

17        Q.   Well, who wore a blue military uniform?

18        A.   Well, the police would wear blue uniforms.

19        Q.   All right.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MS. KORNER:  Just pause there.

22        Q.   What are we looking at here?

23        A.   We can see some men in blue camouflage uniforms.  At least that's

24     my impression.

25        Q.   All right.  And those -- are those blue camouflage uniforms,

Page 7641

 1     again, police uniforms?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Move on.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MS. KORNER:  Pause there.

 7        Q.   The helicopters.  Were there police helicopters in Banja Luka at

 8     the time?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I know there were helicopters, but as to whose

10     they were, I don't know.  Banja Luka had a helicopter before the war.

11     And immediately prior to the war, it was taken to Sarajevo.

12        Q.   Was this the first -- when you were watching there, was this the

13     first time that you'd seen then helicopters?

14        A.   No.  How could it be the first time?

15        Q.   I'm sorry, it was a bad question.  What I mean is -- I didn't

16     mean have you ever seen a helicopter before.  Was this the first time

17     you'd seen, apparently, helicopters back as part of the police armaments,

18     as it were, in Banja Luka.

19        A.   I was present.  I was amongst the citizens down there, and I know

20     that these helicopters were flying over.  I think they had some sort of

21     signs.  But as for whether they were police helicopters or military

22     helicopters or anything of that sort, I don't know.  I didn't even wonder

23     about that at the time.

24        Q.   But this was an entirely police parade, wasn't it, not a

25     military -- not a combined parade?

Page 7642

 1        A.   I'm telling you, I don't know to whom those helicopters belonged.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Let's go on.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Are these also police forces?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   And these, police as well?

 9        A.   That's right.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. KORNER:  And a rather undisciplined lot of police.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   Can we see where you were standing?  Oh, we've now moved off.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Let's go on.  Let's go on now.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   Is your viewpoint shown anywhere in this video that we've seen so

20     far?

21        A.   I know where I was standing.  It was in front of the post office,

22     at the cross-roads between the park and Petar Kostic Street.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   And did you recognise any of the people who were taking part in

Page 7643

 1     this parade?

 2        A.   Yes, there are some people I recognised there.  My policemen.

 3        Q.   Who is that taking the salute in the green camouflage?

 4        A.   It is difficult for me to recognise someone from behind.  But

 5     he's saluting the police.

 6        Q.   Yes, I think we can all see that.

 7             Are you able to -- did you watch this part where the salute was

 8     going on?

 9        A.   Well, I probably did.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, who took the salute?  Who's that, in the green

11     camouflage?

12        A.   I'm telling you, it's difficult to recognise someone from behind.

13     But I can tell you who I think he is.  It's an assumption.

14        Q.   You tell us who you --

15        A.   But I can't claim for certain, since I can only see him from

16     behind.  I think it's Minister Stanisic.

17        Q.   Well, if you ask me, I'd say that was a fairly good guess.

18             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we just finish this off.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] Yes, Your Honours, that

21     may be an appropriate moment.  And may I ask that this now be -- I don't

22     think we've had it admitted and marked so far.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1080, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 7644

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, just while we have this in our fresh

 2     minds, what was -- Mr. Tutus, actually, I put my question to you.  What

 3     was the occasion of this parade.  Do you recall?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The parade was held for the day of

 5     security services in the former Yugoslavia.  We celebrate at the 13th of

 6     May as the day of the security services.  I think this was on the 14th,

 7     perhaps, but the reason for this parade was to celebrate the Security

 8     Services Day.  All police forces participated in the parade.  There were

 9     members of various services, there was the traffic police, the general

10     police, and so on and so forth.

11             So the reason was to celebrate the Security Services Day, and

12     this day was celebrated every year.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So Police Day, it was.  Was that throughout the

14     former Yugoslavia or was it only in Bosnia?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout Yugoslavia.  The

16     Security Services Day was celebrated throughout Yugoslavia and there was

17     certain sports activities that also took place to celebrate this day.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One last small correction, Mr. Tutus.  I'm coming

20     back to the helicopters.  Supposingly there are police -- if we suppose

21     there are police helicopters, did you know that public service or that

22     the security services had helicopters in Banja Luka before?

23             Did you know that, or is it something new?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew that the Banja Luka SUP had

25     helicopters.  I personally used the helicopter to go from Banja Luka to

Page 7645

 1     Sarajevo.  It was a Gazelle bought in France.  We had our own heliport.

 2     We had a hanger for helicopters.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Tutus, we are about to take the adjournment for

 5     the day.  You, having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any

 6     communication with counsel from either side in this matter, and in such

 7     conversations as you may have with persons outside of the courtroom, you

 8     cannot discuss your testimony.

 9             Do you understand?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand and that's how I shall

11     proceed.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             So we take the adjournment now, to reconvene in Courtroom III

14     tomorrow morning at 9.00.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of March,

18                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.