Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9822

 1                           Monday, 10 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning everybody in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus

 8     Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.  And for the record, I note

12     that the Bench is again fully constituted.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Alex Demirdjian on

14     behalf the Prosecutor, with senior trial attorney Joanna Korner, and

15     Case Manager Crispian Smith.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

17     Slobodan Cvijetic, Dominic Kennedy, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and

18     Ms. Deirdre Montgomery appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.

19             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

20     Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good morning to you, sir.  Would you please read

23     the solemn declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 9823

 1                           WITNESS:  OBREN PETROVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  You may sit down.  Good morning

 4     to you, sir, and welcome to the Tribunal.  You have been called as a

 5     witness by the Prosecution in this trial against Mico Stanisic and

 6     Stojan Zupljanin, who you'll see to your left.  Let me start out by

 7     asking you to give us your name and your date of birth.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Obren Petrovic, born on

 9     11th of May, 1957, in Doboj, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And happy birthday for

11     tomorrow.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What is your profession today?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Head of the Doboj municipality.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what was your occupation in 1992?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Chief of the Doboj Public Security

17     Station.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And your ethnicity?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  Mr. Petrovic, have you ever testified

21     before this Tribunal or before any domestic tribunal about the crimes

22     that were committed in the course of the armed conflict in the former

23     Yugoslavia?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Let me then explain to you briefly

Page 9824

 1     how this is going to then proceed.  You have been called as a witness by

 2     the Prosecution, and I believe that you have met with Mr. Demirdjian

 3     already.  The Prosecution has asked for four hours for you to testify in

 4     chief.  After that, the Defence for Mr. Stanisic has asked for five

 5     hours, and the Defence for Mr. Zupljanin has asked only for 15 minutes.

 6     So this means that your testimony will run for today and tomorrow at

 7     least.

 8             We normally sit in sessions of 90 minutes because the tapes of

 9     the recordings of these proceedings have to be changed every 90 minutes,

10     so we'll have a break at 10.25.  The breaks are of 20 minutes' duration.

11     After the Defence has completed their cross-examination, the Prosecution

12     again will be given the floor to examine you in redirect examination, and

13     thereafter the Judges may have some questions for you.  If at any time,

14     sir, you feel like you would wish to have a break or have questions, then

15     please do not hesitate to let us know.

16             The proceedings are being translated into English and French,

17     apart from Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian, which means that you have

18     interpreters sitting around us trying to interpret everything we say in

19     this courtroom.  Especially when you are being cross-examined by the

20     Defence, you will then, both of you, speak the same language and there's

21     a natural tendency to overlap and to speak very fast when you were in a

22     direct dialogue, but, sir, may I remind you to please observe at all

23     times a break between question and answer because otherwise the

24     interpreters will be unable to follow what you are saying and then your

25     testimony will all be in vain.  So help us and help the interpreters to

Page 9825

 1     enable them to understand what you are saying.

 2             And finally, I remind you of your solemn declaration, and I

 3     should also remind you that there's a severe penalty for providing false

 4     or incomplete information to the Tribunal.

 5             That's all I have to say, and I give the floor to the

 6     Prosecution.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Petrovic.  In answer to the Honourable Judge

10     you stated that you were the head of Doboj municipality.  In essence does

11     that mean you are the mayor of the town?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And since when are you the mayor of Doboj?

14        A.   Since 2002.

15        Q.   I'd like to go through your background, education and

16     professional background.  Is it correct that you completed your military

17     service?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   And which year was that?

20        A.   In 1977 and 1978 in the reserve school for officers in Zadar.

21        Q.   After your military service, you finished your studies in 1980;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   In 1980, I finished the teacher's college in Tuzla, and in 1988,

24     the Faculty of Political Sciences in Zagreb.

25        Q.   After you finished your teacher's college education, you worked

Page 9826

 1     for the Territorial Defence; is that correct?

 2        A.   From 1980 to 1982 I worked in the professional services as the

 3     officer for national defence.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he did

 5     after 1982.  The interpreters didn't catch that, sorry.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 7        Q.   The interpreters didn't catch what you said after 1982.  Can you

 8     repeat your answer, please.

 9        A.   Between 1982 and 1989, I worked in the Doboj Territorial Defence.

10        Q.   And what was your role in the Territorial Defence?

11        A.   I worked for two years as the officer for operations and

12     training.  And then in 1984 until 1986 I was the assistant chief for

13     intelligence.  And then from 1987 to 1989 I was the chief of security of

14     Territorial Defence.

15        Q.   Very well.  And you already mentioned that you studied political

16     science in Zagreb from 1986 to 1988.  And it is in 1989 that you started

17     to work at the SUP; is that correct?

18        A.   I started working for the state security service, and I remained

19     there until 1991.

20        Q.   Right.  And this is when you become the head of the SUP in Doboj,

21     in 1991?

22        A.   In 1991 I became chief of the public security station in Doboj.

23        Q.   Which month was that in 1991?

24        A.   June.

25        Q.   And you remained in this position until when?

Page 9827

 1        A.   Until the end of 1992 when I was dismissed.

 2        Q.   When you were appointed as chief of the SUP in June 1991, who was

 3     your superior?

 4        A.   My superior was the chief of the centre Andrija Bjelosovic, as

 5     well as the minister of interior according to the hierarchy who was at

 6     the time Alija Delimustafic.

 7        Q.   And can you explain to us how you were nominated to the position

 8     of chief of the SUP in June 1991?

 9        A.   After the 1990 elections, an inter-party agreement was reached

10     between the SDA, SDS, and the HDZ; and according to this division, a Serb

11     was to be appointed chief of the station, and the commander was to be

12     from the SDA, and the HDZ was to take up the post of the chief for

13     traffic.

14             After that, the party concerned nominated several candidates, so

15     the number one candidate was Milan Ninkovic, followed by Zoran Zekic, and

16     the third was Zoran Blagojevic.  And after lengthy debate, they nominated

17     me as the third candidate because I wasn't a member of the SDS.  So these

18     three candidates were put forward as proposals to the BH MUP, and after

19     that I was nominated.

20        Q.   And the official appointment came from whom?

21        A.   Minister Alija Delimustafic.

22        Q.   You were the chief of the SUP; who was the commander in the SUP

23     in Doboj at that time in June 1991?

24        A.   Irfan Hadzic was the commander.  And the commander of the traffic

25     police was Mirko Grujic, a Croat.

Page 9828

 1        Q.   Now, in the SUP you also had a section for crime prevention.  How

 2     many staff members did you have in that section?

 3        A.   That was for general crime.  There were eight people in the

 4     section, and Mladen Bulic was the head of the section.

 5        Q.   And --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 8             Mr. ZECEVIC:  Page 6, line 17, I believe your question was

 9     recorded as part of the answer of the witness.  Maybe this can be

10     remedied.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Page 6, line 17?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah, I think your -- your question was --

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: -- "And the official appointment came from whom;"

15     that was the question.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  That's correct.  Thank you for that,

17     Mr. Zecevic.

18        Q.   Now, you mentioned the crime prevention section in the SUP; was

19     there also a crime prevention section in the CSB in Doboj?

20        A.   Yes, there was.  They were involved in serious crime, white

21     collar crime, and/or other serious criminal offences.

22        Q.   Do you know who headed that section in the CSB?

23        A.   Pejo Krnjic.

24        Q.   And are you aware of how many staff members he had under him?

25        A.   I don't know, but I think over 20.

Page 9829

 1        Q.   Now, I want to ask you a small procedural question as we will be

 2     seeing a number of documents this morning.  Can you tell the Court what

 3     was the policy on signatures in the police.  Who was authorised to sign

 4     documents in the SUP?

 5        A.   Well, if we are talking about a station, the chief of station is

 6     authorised to sign.  However, if we are talking about a specific line of

 7     work, for example, CAD, then the head of that section can sign

 8     information requested by the centre.  If it had to do with the

 9     administrative section, it was the head of the section.  When we talk

10     about prosecutor's office and chief of different sections would sign a

11     proposal and file criminal reports to the prosecutor and, as I said,

12     heads of these sections would normally sign this kind of documents.

13        Q.   Page 7, line 22, you talk about a section; it was recorded as

14     CAD.  Can you tell us what that is, or if those letters are correct,

15     actually?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It stands for criminal

17     investigation department.  So it should be section then.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the criminal investigation

19     section exists as the level of the centre, as I explained.  When we talk

20     about the administrative section, it dealt with issuing identity cards,

21     passports, driver's licences, and, of course, they also submitted their

22     own reports to the centre.  The centre also had its own administrative

23     department which dealt with these same issues like identity papers and

24     passports and things like that.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

Page 9830

 1        Q.   Very well.  And you were saying that the heads of the sections

 2     were signing the documents when they were drafting it; whose name would

 3     appear on those documents in the signature block?

 4        A.   Well, sometimes that would be the name of the chief of station

 5     and his name would be put.

 6        Q.   And the chief of that -- sorry, who would be signing it?  Would

 7     it be the chief of the section or the chief of the station?

 8        A.   Well, as I said, it could have been signed by the chief of

 9     station, but in practice it was done by the head of the criminal

10     investigation section if it had to do with filing a criminal report

11     against an individual.

12        Q.   I'd like to move on to the political developments in Doboj in

13     1991.  And, first of all, I'd like to ask you whether you -- you told us

14     that you were not -- actually, no.  Let me first ask you this, because

15     you told us that you were proposed by the SDS.  Were you a member of that

16     party in 1991?

17        A.   No, I wasn't.

18        Q.   Did you join the SDS eventually?

19        A.   Afterwards, towards the end of the war.

20        Q.   Therefore in 1991 and in 1992 you were not a member of the SDS?

21        A.   No, I wasn't.

22        Q.   Now, were you aware of meetings held by the SDS in Doboj in 1991

23     which were attended by the leadership of the SDS?  Were you aware of

24     those?

25        A.   I don't remember.  I wasn't invited to attend.  Had I been

Page 9831

 1     invited, I would have known if there were any meetings.

 2        Q.   I understand you were not invited, but had you heard of such

 3     meetings being held?  Had you heard of some members of the leadership

 4     attending sessions in Doboj?

 5        A.   I don't remember.

 6        Q.   And could you remind us who was the head of the SDS in Doboj,

 7     president of the SDS?

 8        A.   Milan Ninkovic was the president of the SDS in Doboj.

 9        Q.   Did you know at the time in 1991 of decisions or declarations

10     issued by the SDS in relation to Doboj territory and in relation to the

11     independence of Bosnia?

12        A.   Well, I heard -- people talked about that in 1991 and in 1992.

13     It was discussed in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was

14     extensively covered by the media as well.

15        Q.   And in Doboj, what was the substance of those declarations

16     generally?  What was the gist of the message of the SDS in Doboj?

17        A.   Well, in 1991 they probably discussed it at length.  But after

18     1991 declaration of Republika Srpska, I think, on the 9th of January and

19     then on the 26th of March, the declaration of the Serbian municipality of

20     Doboj, as I heard, negotiations started between the SDS and the SDA about

21     the problems that existed in the area of Doboj municipality.

22        Q.   Now, what kind of problems existed at the time in Doboj?  I'm

23     talking about the end of 1991, early 1992.

24        A.   The situation was tense.  There was ethnic tension as by that

25     time the war in Croatia had broken out.  Still there were a lot of

Page 9832

 1     discussions going on among these parties, the SDA and SDS, and then in

 2     1991 -- 1992 there were problems about the withdrawal of the JNA and

 3     there were frequent meetings between the police and the JNA on the issue

 4     of joint patrols that were to protect the army as they were moving in the

 5     direction of the Krajina and then onwards, pulling out of the Krajina

 6     itself.

 7        Q.   Now, you are saying there were discussions among the parties;

 8     what were the proposals that were advocated at the time with regards to

 9     these problems?

10        A.   As far as I heard, and I wasn't present at these meetings, the

11     SDS and the SDA discussed the issue of dividing up the town into two

12     parts.  But I think that it all came to nothing; nothing came out of it.

13        Q.   And do you know who proposed splitting the town?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know the reasons behind the establishment

15     of Republika Srpska.  Probably there were discussions about the -- among

16     the parties at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the result was the

17     setting up of Republika Srpska and of the Serbian municipality of Doboj,

18     and, of course, they could not have existed as Serbian municipality of

19     Doboj and the municipality of Doboj at once.  A solution was sought in

20     that direction therefore.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the Judge.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.

24             Mr. Demirdjian, do you realise that you are examining about

25     adjudicated facts 1266?

Page 9833

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, I have it in front of me right here, but

 2     I'm trying to get -- to develop on that.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Petrovic, you were telling us about problems in the

 6     municipality of Doboj.  Were you aware of occurrences of properties being

 7     blown up?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And to whom did these properties or buildings belong to?

10        A.   Most of them belonged to non-Serbs, i.e., Bosniaks, Albanians,

11     and perhaps Croats, I'm not sure.

12        Q.   And were the perpetrators of these acts identified at the time?

13        A.   I don't think they were for any of these acts.

14        Q.   Were there any suspects, to your knowledge?

15        A.   I don't know.  It was within the competence of the

16     Security Services Centre.  To my knowledge, not a single perpetrator was

17     uncovered.

18        Q.   Do you know if any investigations were conducted by the

19     Security Services Centre?

20        A.   Yes.  On-site investigations took place, but as far as I know,

21     the perpetrators were not identified.

22        Q.   Now, you told us that this was under the competence of the

23     Security Services Centre.  Can you explain that to the Trial Chamber,

24     please?

25        A.   Well, I said that we had the criminal investigation service which

Page 9834

 1     dealt with general crime, i.e., criminal offences that were not as

 2     serious; whereas the CSB had more staff, more qualified people.  They had

 3     the required forensics equipment and staff and was capable of doing the

 4     job professionally.

 5        Q.   And with regards to blowing up buildings and property, did that

 6     require a certain type of experience in that domain?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And who, to your knowledge, would have that sort of experience?

 9        A.   There were individuals from the army and the MUP who were

10     involved in uncovering subversive activities.  They were the ones who

11     could uncover that.  And then there were also the ones who set up these

12     explosives had to have been qualified to do so.  Not everyone can set an

13     explosive under a car, for instance.

14        Q.   So the average citizen wouldn't be able to set up this type of

15     explosives?

16        A.   No, only those who were trained to do so.

17        Q.   In early 1992, could you tell us if there was an issue with the

18     television repeaters in and around Doboj?

19        A.   In 1992 the repeater was -- the repeater near Doboj was taken

20     over, and I think it was organised by Major Stankovic.

21        Q.   And when you say that the repeater was taken, what happened to

22     the repeater?

23        A.   Well, the repeater was taken and it was the repeater of

24     TV Sarajevo, of the television of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I happened to be

25     on the team who, together with a group of people from Sarajevo, toured

Page 9835

 1     the repeater.  We found people in camouflage uniform up there who

 2     searched us.  The people who came from Sarajevo had to repair the

 3     repeater because it would not have been operational at all.  Those people

 4     who were there in camouflage uniform didn't know how to handle it at all,

 5     and it would not have been a service to anyone, to either the TV in

 6     Sarajevo or to TV Belgrade to be transmitted via that repeater.

 7        Q.   And what happened when the TV repeater was seised by these men in

 8     uniform?  Was -- did that have any effect in any way in Doboj?

 9        A.   When the repeater was taken, one could no longer watch

10     TV Sarajevo, rather, what it transmitted was TV Belgrade.  Later on, the

11     minister of the interior, Delimustafic, visited Doboj and he spoke to the

12     leadership of the SDS and to the leadership of Doboj municipality.  I

13     don't recall whether an agreement was reached, a compromise of some sort.

14     In other words, he was there both as a minister and as a representative

15     of the BH government.

16        Q.   You told us that this was organised by Major Stankovic.  What was

17     the reaction of the municipal leaders?

18        A.   The president of the municipality was an SDA member at the time.

19     Of course, the municipality reacted to it, but the

20     Serbian Democratic Party issued a press release at the time where it was

21     stated that the citizens of Doboj of Serb ethnicity wanted to be able to

22     watch TV Belgrade rather than TV Sarajevo.

23        Q.   In relation to Major Stankovic, can you tell us, first of all,

24     his full name?

25        A.   Milovan Stankovic.

Page 9836

 1        Q.   And at that time which unit did he belong to?  And we're talking

 2     about early 1992.

 3        A.   In early 1992 it wasn't generally known which unit he belonged

 4     to.  He, I believe, belonged to some sort of security intelligence

 5     service of the JNA.

 6        Q.   Was he from Doboj?

 7        A.   No.  He was from Modrica, near Doboj.

 8        Q.   You told us he was from the security intelligence service of the

 9     JNA.  Was he stationed in Doboj prior to 1992, or ...

10        A.   I think that he appeared in 1991.  We had an army contingent and

11     barracks in Doboj which had its commander and despite that he started

12     forming units in town and its surroundings.

13        Q.   You said that he appeared in 1991.  Where did he come from, to

14     your knowledge?

15        A.   I don't know.  He was known as Major Stankovic, so he must have

16     been somewhere in the army.

17        Q.   And you are saying that he started forming units despite the fact

18     that there was an army contingent in the barracks in Doboj.  Can you tell

19     us who was the head of that army contingent in Doboj?

20        A.   The commander was Cazim, and I can't remember his last name.

21        Q.   And do you remember if Stankovic visited the CSB building in the

22     early 1992?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   And do you know if the head of the CSB ever met with Stankovic in

25     early 1992?

Page 9837

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Now, you told us that the municipality of Doboj was declared on

 3     the 26th of March, 1992.  I'd like to ask you if you are aware of any

 4     meetings attended by Andrija Bjelosevic with other high-ranking members

 5     of the MUP?  I'm talking about prior to May 1992.

 6        A.   I don't remember.

 7        Q.   And were you informed of -- again, early 1992, of the

 8     establishment of a Serb MUP in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   I wasn't informed of that.

10        Q.   Were there any meetings held in the MUP in Doboj in the CSB?

11     Were there any talks about the creation of this Serb MUP?

12        A.   I know that a meeting took place.  Now, I don't know if it was in

13     March or April.  It was held in the hall of the station's building.  I

14     know that the meeting was of all the employees, but I don't know what the

15     subject of discussions was.  It must have been related to the problems

16     arising at the time.  Voting was taking place, or perhaps --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't sure, the elections or

18     what.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I know that there was talk of

20     this Serb MUP being in the making.  I don't know what the upshot of the

21     meeting was.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23        Q.   Now, were you present at this meeting?

24        A.   I wasn't.

25        Q.   And did you hear how many staff members attended this meeting?

Page 9838

 1        A.   I think at least 100 people were present, Serbs, Croats, and

 2     Bosniaks.

 3        Q.   And after this meeting, what did you hear about the meeting?

 4     What were the reactions?

 5        A.   I can't remember exactly what it was they discussed.  I probably

 6     did know at the time.  I just can't remember now what it was and why the

 7     discussions were so heated.

 8        Q.   And do you know anyone who was present during this meeting?

 9        A.   Well, I know many.  A relative of mine, a policeman, attended the

10     meeting.  So back in 1992 I probably knew what it was they discussed,

11     it's just that I can't remember now.

12        Q.   And you told us a moment ago that this was in relation to the

13     creation of this Serb MUP.  Did you hear what was said about the creation

14     of the MUP; do you remember that?

15        A.   No, I can't remember that.

16        Q.   Were you aware that at the end of March 1992 a dispatch arrived

17     signed by Momcilo Mandic discussing the creation of this Serb MUP?

18        A.   I don't remember.

19        Q.   You don't remember receiving a dispatch of that nature?

20        A.   I don't remember.

21        Q.   We now come to the events in relation to the take-over of Doboj.

22     Can you tell us when that took place?

23        A.   It happened between the 2nd and the 3rd of May, 1992.

24        Q.   How did you come to learn about it?

25        A.   I came to know about it in the following way:  On the 3rd of May,

Page 9839

 1     I was told that I should go to the SUP because the Red Berets had taken

 2     over the public security station building.

 3        Q.   And did you go to the public security station?

 4        A.   I did.

 5        Q.   And what did you see upon your arrival?

 6        A.   As I arrived there, I saw the policemen securing the station.

 7     This is what I found out:  When the Red Berets got to the SUP that night,

 8     they arrested the Bosniak and Croat members of the police and put them

 9     into prison, and the Serb policemen were left behind to guard the

10     building.

11        Q.   You mentioned the Red Berets.  Had you heard about them before

12     the 3rd of May, 1992?

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   Were you aware in any way when they arrived in Doboj?

15        A.   I heard that they had arrived in April.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the last word the

17     witness said.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

19        Q.   The interpreter didn't catch the last part of your answer.  You

20     said they arrived in April and then ... can you continue?  They didn't

21     your answer.

22        A.   To Mount Ozren near Doboj; that's where they arrived.

23        Q.   And to your knowledge where did they come from?

24        A.   I think from Serbia, by helicopter.  That's -- that was the

25     story.

Page 9840

 1        Q.   Do you know if they had a leader?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And who was their leader?

 4        A.   Rajo Bozovic.

 5        Q.   And you said that they arrived in Mount Ozren.  Where were they

 6     stationed?

 7        A.   I think up at Petrovo.

 8        Q.   And just for the benefit of Trial Chamber, can you tell us where

 9     Petrovo is in relation to Doboj?

10        A.   It is in the direction of Tuzla.  And before the war, it was part

11     of Gracanica municipality.  Because on the way from Doboj to Tuzla, there

12     is the Gracanica municipality, and that's where Petrovo is.  And

13     Mount Ozren is between the rivers of Spreca and Bosna.

14        Q.   You told us that the Red Berets took over on -- between the night

15     of the 2nd and 3rd of May.  Were any other units present during this

16     take-over?

17        A.   I think that their primary task was to seise SUP, and I think

18     they did it on their own.  Later on, in the morning, they engaged

19     detachments with tanks and the army because the SUP building is in the

20     centre of town and the old part of town where -- populated by Bosniaks

21     had not been taken over yet.  So later on, on the 3rd, they proceeded to

22     attack Stari Grad, that's to say, the old town of Doboj, "carsija," and

23     that's when the detachments and the army got involved as well.

24        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us what you mean by the detachments.  You

25     told us about the Red Berets, you're telling us the army.  What are the

Page 9841

 1     detachments?

 2        A.   Stankovic formed these detachments in the town proper as well as

 3     on the hills surrounding and overlooking Doboj, Mount Ozren,

 4     Trebiva [phoen], Krnin [phoen].  Every hill or mount had its own

 5     detachment.

 6        Q.   And these detachments were made of whom exactly?  Who were

 7     members of these detachments?

 8        A.   The members were Serbs.  Stankovic organised them and appointed

 9     commanders of detachments.

10        Q.   And how did he select these men?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12        Q.   To your knowledge were they locals from Doboj or were they from

13     elsewhere?

14        A.   The detachments consisted of the locals.  They took weapons from

15     the army and distributed them among these locals.

16        Q.   And were there police units from other areas present in Doboj?

17        A.   Shortly after the take-over on the 2nd and the 3rd, the unit from

18     Banja Luka arrived, and Martic's police arrived soon thereafter as well.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, may I ask -- can I ask a question

20     to the witness.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Of course.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Stankovic that organised the detachments,

23     there is a Stankovic who is deputy mayor of Doboj.  Is that the same

24     person?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now?  You mean deputy mayor now?

Page 9842

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, in 1992.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  He styled himself as the

 3     commander of the defence of town, and that's how he would sign his

 4     letters.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm referring to adjudicated facts 1266 that

 6     says:

 7             In late March 1992 at the session of the Doboj Municipal Assembly

 8     the president of the Doboj SDS Ninkovic proposed a division of Doboj

 9     town, the division was debated again at a meeting, et cetera, et cetera.

10     By Ninkovic, JNA garrison commander; Cazim Hadzic; his deputy mayor,

11     Stankovic; and Borislav Paravac, president of the SDS.

12             So my question is:  Is this the Stankovic that organised these

13     detachments?  Do you know?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this

15     Stankovic individual.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17        Q.   Perhaps to clarify, could you tell us what was the relationship

18     between Major Stankovic and the JNA garrison commander you mentioned to

19     us earlier, Cazim?

20        A.   Well, the general feeling was that he had been sent over from a

21     superior command, that nobody should dare do anything against him.  That

22     was the feeling I got from Cazim when these joint patrols were being

23     discussed.  People complained of what Stankovic was doing.  Cazim said,

24     He doesn't belong with my unit; I don't know who he belongs with.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise to my learned friend.  Maybe in

Page 9843

 1     answer to His Honour Judge Delvoie, actually, what you just read, it's

 2     said that Stankovic was a "major," like rank, but deputy "mayor" is --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I think that clarifies the relationship between

 5     Mr. Hadzic and Stankovic.

 6        Q.   Now, in relation to the unit you say that came from Banja Luka,

 7     can you develop on that, please?  What was their numbers?  If they had a

 8     leader?

 9        A.   They probably had a leader.  I can't remember exactly.  There

10     were probably 15 or 20 men.  As far as I could see, they were directly

11     with Andrija Bjelosevic.  I don't know what they did and what their task

12     was.

13        Q.   Do you know if it was a regular police unit?

14        A.   Their unit -- you mean this special unit, whether it was a

15     regular unit?  I don't know about that.  I don't know whether they were

16     members of the regular police or Special Police.

17        Q.   You just called them, "you mean the special unit;" do you know in

18     any way what was their status?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  Judging by their uniforms and the weapons

20     they had, they looked like members of special units.  Whether they

21     actually were, I don't know.  And I don't know what they did and why they

22     had come.  I don't know.

23        Q.   Can you tell us about their uniform?

24        A.   They also had camouflage uniforms.  The only difference was that

25     they all had to wear red berets, red caps.  As for the rest, they just

Page 9844

 1     had camouflage uniforms.  And I don't remember what kind of caps they

 2     had.

 3        Q.   Sorry, I'm slightly confused here.  You said, "The only

 4     difference was that they all had to wear red berets, red caps."  And then

 5     you said, "I don't remember what kind of caps they had."

 6             Could you clarify that for us, please?

 7        A.   No, what I said about red berets was that they all had to have

 8     red caps.  All those who had been recruited were issued red caps

 9     immediately and that is how we recognised members of the red berets.

10     Whereas the other members had -- I mean, people from Banja Luka had

11     camouflage uniforms, but I don't remember what their caps looked like.

12     They were definitely not red.

13        Q.   Now, you told us that on the 3rd of May you had seen that members

14     of your police station, Bosniaks and Croats, were arrested.  Can you

15     describe to us what was the situation in the police station on the day of

16     the take-over?

17        A.   They were arrested already during the night.  When I arrived I

18     heard who had been in the station during the night.  All the Muslims and

19     Croats were incarcerated, and the people who were guarding the building

20     on the 3rd of May were all Serbs.

21        Q.   Now, you told us that before the conflict the commander of the

22     police was Irfan Hadzic.  What happened to him after the 2nd of May?

23        A.   Well, he remained in his village of Miljkovac.  He never appeared

24     at the SUP because it was a suburban neighbourhood of the town where he

25     lived.

Page 9845

 1        Q.   And was there a new commander appointed after the 2nd of May?

 2        A.   Immediately after the 2nd of May, pursuant to Stankovic's order,

 3     a detachment of police was set up made up of 1300 men.  As he said, this

 4     detachment was similar to Martic's unit which practically meant that

 5     everybody should be transferred from the army to police.  They were

 6     divided into companies which is not a standard practice in the police.

 7     Thirteen companies all in all were established at the time and commanders

 8     appointed.

 9        Q.   Now, you told us that this was on Stankovic's order, but you are

10     saying he is creating police detachments.  What was the CSB chief's role

11     in all this?

12        A.   Well, he had no role whatsoever because before the war we had

13     reserve police stations scattered around villages, but now he turned all

14     these stations into companies, increased the number of men from the army,

15     and because the army through the Ministry of Defence concerned the people

16     who were detachment, particularly those stationed in town, I think that

17     the entire unit that was formed in that way in town was made up of people

18     who were transferred from the army to the police, therefore, there was no

19     reaction from the CSB.

20        Q.   That's what I'm trying to get at.  You say there was no reaction

21     from the CSB.  What was the relationship between Mr. Bjelosevic and

22     Mr. Stankovic?

23        A.   Well, I've never heard of any conflicts arising between the two.

24        Q.   And did you hear whether Mr. Bjelosevic objected to this way of

25     proceeding?

Page 9846

 1        A.   No, I didn't.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'd like to show you 65 ter 852, please.

 3        Q.   This is a report signed by Milos, and I believe you hadn't seen

 4     this document at the time, but I would like you to focus on the first

 5     paragraph, and it deals with the take-over of Doboj.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I apologise, this is tab 30 on the list.

 7        Q.   Do you see the document on the screen, Mr. Petrovic?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Now, in the middle of the paragraph it deals with a large number

10     of private houses, mainly by Muslim and Croat citizens, suffered serious

11     damage.  Described searches and arrests that was incorrect by the

12     so-called Special Forces.  And it goes on to describe the units involved

13     including the Special Forces from Banja Luka and Special Forces organised

14     by Bozovic.

15             Is that an accurate reflection of the events as you saw them in

16     early May 1992?

17        A.   Well, most problems were caused by these units, various units.

18     There were other units as well, but the most serious problems were caused

19     by the Red Berets and these groups that entered houses, took away their

20     possessions, abused people, and took people to prison.

21        Q.   Now, I know you haven't seen this document before.  We have

22     information that this type of information was written by the national

23     security in Banja Luka.  Can you tell us who have access -- how they

24     would have access to this information?  How would Banja Luka have access

25     to this type of information in Doboj?

Page 9847

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I don't seek to tender this

 3     document at this time.  We can mark it for identification, as we will

 4     have somebody to talk about the authenticity of the document.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1337 marked for identification,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display on the screen 65 ter 3081,

 9     which is at tab 21 of the list.  If we can go to the next page, please.

10        Q.   Now, sir, this is what appears to be a payroll from the

11     Doboj CSB.  Do you recognise the name of the chief there?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And we see assistant chief Milan Savic.  Did you know him?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   To your knowledge, when was he appointed assistant chief to

16     Bjelosevic?

17        A.   I think it was in May.  I think so.  I don't know.

18        Q.   Of what year, please?

19        A.   1992.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to the next page, please.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, this is the CSB Doboj's forensic service.  Do you recognise

22     the names on this list?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Were these people that were members of the forensic service in

25     1992?

Page 9848

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Very well.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we now go to page 9.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what is the first name on that list?

 5        A.   Slobodan Karagic, who was a member of the Red Berets who were

 6     recruited.  And this Red Beret unit was under Bozovic.

 7        Q.   Now, this -- these names appear on the payroll of CSB Doboj.

 8     Could you tell us what was the relationship between the Red Berets and

 9     the chief of the CSB Andrija Bjelosevic?

10        A.   I don't know who was in command of the Red Berets.  I hadn't

11     heard about any disagreements or conflicts between Andrija Bjelosevic and

12     the Red Beret commander.

13        Q.   And as we were flipping through these pages, this appears to be a

14     payroll for the month of April 1992.  Do you agree that on this list --

15     well, this list is made of mainly Serb police officers, starting from the

16     first page, the pages that we saw earlier?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And to your knowledge is this a list that was -- that emerged

19     from the CSB services?  Was it created by the CSB services?

20        A.   Well, I think that this list -- actually, every month the reserve

21     police and the centre received salaries from Sarajevo.  Since on the

22     night between the 2nd and the 3rd all communications lines with Sarajevo

23     were severed, then these people who were recruited in May were all given

24     salaries for the month of April.  That was a decision taken by the staff

25     who had funds available at the time.  That was the Crisis Staff.  And the

Page 9849

 1     funds were provided by the public auditing service.  So if we had

 2     received funds from Sarajevo for the month of April, this list wouldn't

 3     have looked like this because these men were not staff members of the CSB

 4     in April but were, rather -- the unit was formed after the 2nd of May.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, can I ask for this document to be

 6     exhibited, please.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1338, Your Honours.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   We saw the name of Slobodan Karagic on that list.  Can you tell

11     us about him.  Who was he in Doboj in 1992?

12        A.   He immediately joined the Red Berets, and he was a commander one

13     of these units.  And he caused a lot of problems around Doboj.

14        Q.   What kind of -- sorry.

15        A.   He went into people's flats and there were complaints about his

16     behaviour.

17        Q.   When you say he went into people's flats, what kind of complaints

18     were they?  What was he doing?

19        A.   Well, he would bring in non-Serbs, he would take money from them,

20     he would arrest them without any warrant at all.

21        Q.   And you say he would arrest them; where would he take them to?

22        A.   He would take them probably or maybe to the SUP prison or to the

23     army.  I don't know where he took them.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display on the screen P1301 MFI.

25     Tab 24.

Page 9850

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, while we are waiting, can I ask

 2     the witness, he says about this pay list that this list would -- would

 3     not have looked the same -- would not have looked like this because these

 4     men were not staff members of the - just one moment - were not staff

 5     members of the CSB in April, but the unit -- but rather the unit was

 6     formed after the 2nd of May.  Does that mean that after the 2nd of May

 7     this unit -- these people were staff members of the CSB?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were specifically

 9     Karagic's Red Berets.  I don't know who they were subordinated to.  I

10     have no idea.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But they were on the CSB pay list; right?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, looking at the -- another pay list on the

16     screen - I'm not going to spend too much time on this - do you recognise

17     this document?

18        A.   This is a criminal investigation service or section.

19        Q.   And do you recognise the names on this list?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I have no other questions on this document.  If

22     I can ask that to be admitted, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display 65 ter 3532, please.  That's

25     tab 40.

Page 9851

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, can we just have the exhibit number, please.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, it was MFI'd.  Now it's the --

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  The number will remain P1301.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Now, sir, this is a list from the SJB, and we can see your name

 6     on the first row.  Looking at this list, was this the composition of your

 7     SJB?

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Maybe if you can scroll down for the witness and

 9     also go to the next page in the B/C/S version for the witness.

10        Q.   Are these the names of the staff members of your police station

11     after May 1992?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I don't have any other questions on this

14     document.  Can I ask for it to be admitted, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1339, Your Honours.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

18        Q.   Now, sir, you told us that people were arrested.  Can you tell

19     us, on the 3rd of May what do you know about the arrests in the

20     municipality of Doboj?

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Demirdjian, if this is a new line, perhaps it's

22     convenient to take the break now.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

Page 9852

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I continue, Your Honours?

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  Before we move on to the next topic,

 6     I'd like to show one more payroll which was MFI P1311, please.  Tab 26.

 7     Can we go to the next page, please.  This is not the right document, I

 8     apologise.  Maybe it's my mistake.  This used to be 65 ter 2397.  In my

 9     records it's P1311.  This is not the document that I have here.  Right.

10     That's the one.  Is this correctly recorded as P1311 MFI?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  No, it's -- the 65 ter number is right, the

12     P number is wrong.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  What is the P number, please?  1300, I see.

14     Thank you.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P number is 1300, yes.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  MFI, yes.

17        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I apologise for this.  Can you tell us what it said

18     at the top of the page in relation to the name of the unit.  It's

19     Petar Ceta Milicija, what does that mean?

20        A.   This means that there is a detachment in Doboj which has a

21     company.  I think that the detachment had 13 companies, in fact, and this

22     is one of them.

23        Q.   Very well.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And in the B/C/S version can we turn to page 3,

25     please.  I apologise, page 4, the last page.

Page 9853

 1        Q.   Under number 83, do you recognise the name?

 2        A.   83?  Oh, yes, Nikola Jorgic, yes.  Yes, I know, I know him.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us about Nikola Jorgic and his role in 1992 in

 4     Doboj?

 5        A.   He was convicted in Germany.  He also led a group that was

 6     involved in arrests and whatnot, I don't know.

 7        Q.   And to your knowledge, he was a member of this Special Police

 8     detachment in Doboj?

 9        A.   According to this list, he was a member of that detachment.  As I

10     said, Stankovic took on all the people and placed them in the detachment.

11        Q.   Very well.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask for that document to be admitted,

13     Your Honours.  It's an MFI right now, so --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  So it will remain as Exhibit P1300, Your Honours.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Now, sir, you were telling us about the arrests of non-Serbs in

18     Doboj.  Next to the police station, is it correct that there was a

19     district prison?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, we have heard and we have evidence that hundreds of people

22     were held there.  Was this something that you knew at the time?

23        A.   Initially I didn't know how this was done.  Later on I came to

24     know that after 3.00 they would bring in these people to the detainees

25     and they would beat them up.  Whereas during working hours, they would

Page 9854

 1     take out individual people, bring them over to the SUP premises for

 2     interrogations, beatings, and then take them back to the prison.

 3        Q.   When you are saying "they," who would arrest these people?

 4        A.   Initially it was these groups, mostly; namely, the Red Berets.

 5     Later on, Martic's men, when they arrived; Jorga's Group;

 6     Karaga's Groups; Preda's Group; they were the ones involved in this.

 7        Q.   Let's just go one by one to have the record clear.  When you say

 8     Martic's men, who are -- who is this group?  Can you describe this group?

 9        A.   I don't know if it was after the 15th or the 20th of May that

10     Martic came from Krajina, in other words, it's the Krajina police.  They

11     were supposed to take part in the breakthrough of the corridor, and they

12     were stationed in Doboj as were all the other units.

13        Q.   When you say Martic's men from Krajina police, could you just for

14     the benefit of the Trial Chamber tell us where in Krajina they came from?

15     Was this from Bosnia?  Where was this from?

16        A.   That's the Krajina in Croatia.  The unit came to Doboj, led by

17     Martic, in order to break through a corridor in the direction of Brcko.

18     They were stationed in Doboj, and some of the members of that unit were

19     involved in the arrests, rapes, and mistreatment.

20        Q.   And just to have the record clear, when you say Martic, you mean

21     Milan Martic; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you said Jorga's Group; who did you mean by Jorga?

24        A.   Nikola Jorgic from the village of Kostajnica nearby had a group

25     which was part of the army before the war or, rather, before the

Page 9855

 1     2nd of May; and then after the 2nd of May they were again part of the

 2     army.  And once all of this was over, they were this police detachment.

 3        Q.   And you said Karaga's Group; and who do you mean by Karaga?

 4        A.   Immediately after the 2nd of May, Karaga underwent training with

 5     the Red Berets.  In other words, he was a member of the Red Beret and was

 6     under their command, that's to say, under Rajo Bozovic's command.

 7        Q.   And what was Karaga's full name, just for the record?

 8        A.   Slobodan.  Slobodan Karagic.

 9        Q.   Now, you told us that people were taken out and beaten up,

10     et cetera, at the district prison.  Did you know the ethnic background of

11     the people who were detained in the prison?

12        A.   Most of them were Bosniaks and Croats.

13        Q.   To your knowledge were these people given any reasons for their

14     arrest and detention?

15        A.   Initially, no.  They would beat them up and take them to the

16     prison and leave them there without any papers.

17        Q.   When you say "initially," did that change?

18        A.   Well, we first tried to make sure that at least we have drawn up

19     a list of those who were held in the prison, and then to make note of

20     individuals when they were released or taken away from the prison by

21     someone, at least to have a record of who was taken and by whom.  There

22     were even incidents related to interventions from the police who wanted

23     to prevent beatings.  We even said that the deputy commander of the

24     police station Djeric was beaten up in the process of trying to prevent

25     these beatings on the part of the Red Beret.

Page 9856

 1             A couple of months later, a commission was set up which conducted

 2     screening of these people and practically released them.  It was only

 3     after that date, in my view, that proper criminal reports were filed

 4     against those who were indeed suspects.  And it was then up to the court

 5     to try those who were indeed responsible.

 6        Q.   Did you have any interaction --

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Demirdjian, could we just clarify with the

 8     witness.

 9             When you said that there was a commission set up to investigate

10     the events in the prison and then you went on to say that they were

11     ultimately released, who did you refer to?  The detainees?  Or the

12     members of the Red Beret who had been detained during the investigation?

13             Or perhaps a better question would be simply:  Were any members

14     of the Red Berets detained during the commission's inquiry?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of the Red Berets

16     having been detained.  What I was saying was that the Bosniaks and Croats

17     who were held prisoner there, they were screened by the commission

18     ultimately when it was formed, and they would be released at the end of

19     that process because it turned out that they were taken into custody for

20     no reason whatsoever, without any documentation.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

22        Q.   To your knowledge, when was this commission established?

23        A.   At the end of June, I believe.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I have a document that deals with that.  I'll

25     bring it up.

Page 9857

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One more question, please.

 4             The witness said that - just one moment, please.  "We even said

 5     that the deputy commander of the police station Djeric was beaten up in

 6     the process of trying to prevent these beatings."

 7             Can I have the first name of this deputy commander, Djeric?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zoran Djekic.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

11        Q.   Now, when you came to learn about the conditions in the prison,

12     did you have any interaction with the staff members of the prison or the

13     leadership of the prison?

14        A.   I probably did.  I was aware of the fact, however, that the

15     prison administration was unable to do anything unless everyone was

16     behind the effort.  That's why the Crisis Staff set up a commission,

17     because apparently at this level there was no possibility to prevent the

18     goings-on in the prison.

19        Q.   Did -- who was your -- who was it that you were in contact with

20     in the prison?

21        A.   I probably spoke to the prison warden or he spoke to me and we

22     probably informed those higher up.  We wanted to put a stop to what had

23     been going on by then as soon as possible, because by that time it had

24     been going on for two months perhaps, or even more.

25        Q.   And when you are saying that you were in contact with the prison

Page 9858

 1     warden, what was his name?

 2        A.   Milan Vidic.

 3        Q.   Now, you are saying that you tried to report this up.  Was the

 4     administration of the CSB aware of what was happening in the prison?

 5        A.   I think that everyone was aware of that.  We were in the same

 6     building, and all these people in the building were able to see it.

 7        Q.   And did you ask for your superior, the CSB chief, to take any

 8     measures in relation to what was happening there?

 9        A.   Well, probably I did.  Everybody was aware of it.

10        Q.   And to your knowledge was any measures taken by the CSB?

11        A.   I don't know.  The Red Berets who belonged to I don't know who,

12     they would come to the SUP, to the ground floor level, and they would

13     bring along an individual, beat him up, and then take him to the prison

14     facility which was right behind.  If an individual, a Serb, came to pick

15     up his identification documentation or something else, they would even

16     force him to join the beating up of that other individual that was

17     brought along with them.  And if such an individual refused to do so,

18     they would beat him up too.

19        Q.   Now, you are saying that this was on the ground floor.  Where was

20     the office of the CSB chief?

21        A.   Upstairs.

22        Q.   Which floor would that be?

23        A.   First floor.

24        Q.   And you are saying that beatings occurred on the ground floor.

25     Was this something that could have been heard on the first floor?

Page 9859

 1        A.   It could be heard not only on the first floor but on the second

 2     floor and outside.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'd like to display Exhibit P1305, please, which

 4     is number 34 on the list.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, you've seen this document, I believe.  It is from the

 6     12th of June.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we scroll to the bottom of the document in

 8     the B/C/S version.

 9        Q.   Do you recognise that signature?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Whose signature is it?

12        A.   Andrija Bjelosevic's.

13        Q.   And in this document he prohibits arbitrary entry into the

14     premises of the district prison in Doboj as well as the use of physical

15     intimidation and physical force against imprisoned and detained persons;

16     therefore, by the 12th of June it appears that Mr. Bjelosevic knew what

17     was happening in the prison.  What can you tell us about the

18     circumstances in which this order was issued?

19        A.   Well, probably what followed next was the setting up of the

20     commission I mentioned, but that was a month and a half later.

21        Q.   Other than this order being issued, do you know if any other

22     measures were taken by the CSB to prevent mistreatment in the prison?

23        A.   I don't know.  I don't know what was done specifically.

24        Q.   Was a security detail ordered to protect the entrance of the

25     prison?

Page 9860

 1        A.   I don't remember that.

 2        Q.   And we are seeing that this order is being issued by

 3     Andrija Bjelosevic.  To whom is this being addressed to?  This document

 4     doesn't seem to say.

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  The prison perhaps.  The intention may have

 6     been for the prison to be able to show this piece of paper to those who

 7     engaged in this sort of activity in the prison so that they stopped doing

 8     it.

 9        Q.   Did this piece of paper have any effect?

10        A.   I don't know if it had any effect on the Red Berets.  I don't

11     know who it was the Red Berets were answerable to.  I know that once the

12     commission was set up the situation gradually returned to normal, but in

13     the early days it was chaos.

14        Q.   Now, you said you don't know to whom the Red Berets were

15     answerable to.  Can you tell us what was the relationship between the

16     Red Berets chief Bozovic and the CSB chief Bjelosevic?

17        A.   I don't think they were in any sort of conflict.

18        Q.   You wrote reports about the behaviour of these groups?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display 65 ter 3535, please, which is

21     at tab 52.

22        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this document?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is that your signature under your name?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9861

 1        Q.   And is this one of the reports you wrote?

 2        A.   It is.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to page 2, please.

 4        Q.   Now, this report is dated the 12th of August, 1992, and the

 5     subject seems to be "Cars stolen in Doboj since the beginning of the

 6     war."  And you are saying here that a number of cars were driven away by

 7     members of the special units from Banja Luka, and the most part of them

 8     was taken by members of the Red Beret.

 9             Now, looking at the cover page, you sent this to the CSB chief;

10     is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And these -- this document specifically deals with the issue of

13     stolen vehicles.  Did you write any other reports about other type of

14     crimes committed by these groups?

15        A.   Perhaps, but I don't remember.

16        Q.   Very well.  In this document you refer to a person by the name of

17     Riki who drove off to Serbia with a Mitsubishi car owned by

18     Ibrahim Sehic.  Can you tell us who Riki was?

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  This was information from the criminal

20     investigation service.  These were their nicknames.  What their actual

21     names were, I don't know.

22        Q.   And this type of order, would it have -- this type of report, I

23     apologise, would it have reached the desk of the CSB chief?

24        A.   Yes, I think this reached the CSB chief Andrija Bjelosevic.  It

25     was intended for him.

Page 9862

 1        Q.   And would this sort of information have to be reported up the

 2     chain of command in the MUP?

 3        A.   It would have had to be.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I ask for this document to be admitted,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1340, Your Honours.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 9        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, to your knowledge, were the events in Doboj,

10     specifically about the detention and mistreatment you described in the

11     prison, was that reported above the CSB to the MUP administration?

12        A.   I think that the centre should have known about that because the

13     prison was in the same building where the station and the centre were

14     accommodated, including the national security.  We were all there.

15        Q.   And would the section of national security have to report this

16     type of information as well?

17        A.   I suppose it should have.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask for P590 to be displayed, please.

19     Tab number 48.

20        Q.   Sir, this is a document that was issued by the CSB in Doboj and

21     dated the 27th of July, and it deals with the problems arising from the

22     activities of paramilitary formations.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now, this document is admitted, so I'll go to

24     page 3 in the English and the B/C/S version.  Can we go to the next page.

25     Actually, that's page 5 in e-court for the B/C/S version.  The last page.

Page 9863

 1        Q.   Do you see towards the end that there's a discussion about a

 2     commission being formed at the Crisis Staff level consisting of

 3     representatives of Doboj SJB, CSB, the Red Cross, the Crisis Staff,

 4     judicial and military organs, and describes the task.  Is this the

 5     commission that you were talking about?

 6        A.   I think is so.

 7        Q.   And it says that the commission will finish its work by

 8     27 July 1992.  And we see what their tasks are:  to determine the

 9     conditions, the reasons for the capture and detention, the degree of

10     their responsibility, conditions of accommodations, and establish the

11     application of the order on the application of the Rules of

12     International Law.  Were you a member of this commission?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know who on behalf of the Doboj SJB or CSB participated in

15     this commission?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   And in doing these tasks, it appears that they have to finish

18     their work by the 27th of July.  You told us that people were released.

19     To your knowledge, when did people start being released from the prison?

20        A.   Well, these people for whom there were no criminal reports, the

21     commission decided to set them free.  As for those for whom there were

22     criminal reports, they waited for a response to come from the prosecutor

23     and the SUP.

24        Q.   We'll get to criminal reports in a moment.  We see here that the

25     Crisis Staff was part of this commission.  Was the Crisis Staff informed

Page 9864

 1     of the condition or did they know about the conditions in the prison as

 2     of the moment of the detention, as of the 3rd of May?

 3        A.   Well, I don't know.  The Crisis Staff seemed more to me like an

 4     organ assisting, because Stankovic said that he was the commander of

 5     town, he issued orders, and, therefore, the Crisis Staff and we from the

 6     police even asked our salaries and food and everything from these units

 7     and they gave it to us.

 8        Q.   By virtue of your position, were you a member of the

 9     Crisis Staff?

10        A.   I don't remember.  I don't know.  I may have gone to see them

11     when we had problems with salaries and other issues that the Crisis Staff

12     could resolve such as fuel supply and the like.

13        Q.   So you attended meetings with the Crisis Staff, but you are

14     saying that you don't know if you were a member of the Crisis Staff.  Can

15     you help us understand this?

16        A.   Well, I don't think that I attended these meetings regularly.  I

17     only went to the Crisis Staff whenever there was some requirement for the

18     police, as I mentioned, the food, the supplies that were needed by the

19     police, the salaries, et cetera.

20        Q.   Very well.  And to your knowledge were members of the

21     Crisis Staff and president of the Crisis Staff, were they aware of the

22     conditions in the prison and the events that you described to us, taking

23     out of detainees, beatings, et cetera?

24        A.   Well, I don't know.  They probably did know, but I'm saying again

25     that Stankovic was the commander of the defence of the town which is

Page 9865

 1     something that I didn't see in other towns, and he acted accordingly as

 2     being in charge of the Crisis Staff, the police, the army, everyone.

 3     Now, I don't know exactly how long it lasted because a few months later

 4     Stankovic went away and Simic came who was the commander of --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not sure whether the

 6     witness says "operations group."

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 8        Q.   You have to clarify the last part of your answer.  Simic was the

 9     commander of what unit?

10        A.   Simic came -- Lieutenant-Colonel Simic came and became commander

11     of Doboj Operations Group, as it was called.  And he was succeeded by

12     General Lisica.

13        Q.   Very well.  And what was Simic's first name, please?

14        A.   I think that he was Lieutenant-Colonel Milan Simic.

15        Q.   You mentioned to us earlier that the CSB chief would have to

16     report these events to the MUP.  Did you actually know what was his

17     relationship with the higher levels of the MUP?

18        A.   Well, I think that during the period where there was no

19     communication with the corridor or the lines were bad, but after the

20     corridor was opened up, communication opened up as well between the

21     minister and the CSB chief.

22        Q.   And to your knowledge did the CSB chief attend meetings with the

23     higher-ranking members of the Ministry of Interior?

24        A.   He probably did, but I don't remember knowing anything about

25     that.

Page 9866

 1        Q.   Were you aware of any meetings that he had to attend to and

 2     whereby he needed information about the situation in your police station?

 3     Would he request information from you to attend such meetings?

 4        A.   He would probably issue an order to us to furnish him with this

 5     kind of information, but he probably never specified for what purpose he

 6     needed this information.  However, we did provide the information

 7     required, and he probably informed the minister thereof.

 8        Q.   You are saying "probably."  Are you aware of occurrences where

 9     Bjelosevic left Doboj to go either to Pale or Bijeljina?  Is that

10     something that you remember from that time?

11        A.   I don't remember.

12        Q.   Did the CSB chief have regular meetings with his subordinated

13     SJB chiefs?

14        A.   I don't think he did.

15        Q.   So from the -- let's start with prior to the war.  In 1991, would

16     there be regular meetings between the CSB chief and the SJB chiefs?

17        A.   Yes, before the war, yes.

18        Q.   And can you explain to us how it is that prior to when there were

19     such meetings and as of, I guess, the month of May there were no such

20     meetings?

21        A.   Well, I think that the centre chief set up station, for example,

22     in Derventa and Petrovo.  There were problems in Teslic.  He was probably

23     on the ground a lot of time and he had one-on-one talks with the chiefs

24     there.  So he seldom held regular meetings that he used to hold every

25     month, before the war.

Page 9867

 1        Q.   I see.  To your knowledge did he have any contact with the

 2     SJB chiefs on the ground?  Did he go to these municipalities you've just

 3     mentioned?

 4        A.   Yes, I think he did.  There were a lot of problems in those

 5     municipalities, and he would go there.  The chiefs of the stations would

 6     be installed.  So he spent a lot of time in the field.

 7        Q.   To your knowledge, did he go to the municipality of

 8     Bosanski Samac?

 9        A.   Probably.  He visited all the municipalities.  However, when he

10     went or how many times he went, I don't know.

11        Q.   Do you remember seeing the chief of the SJBs coming to Doboj to

12     visit the CSB chief?

13        A.   I don't remember that.

14        Q.   Earlier you mentioned to us that the commission released those

15     prisoners against whom there were no criminal reports.  Are you aware of

16     situations where criminal reports were drafted against the prisoners?

17        A.   I think that those detainees for whom there were criminal reports

18     remained in detention on the prosecutor's orders.  As for the rest who

19     didn't have any criminal reports filed against them, they were released.

20        Q.   Now, what type of crimes were these people generally accused of?

21     And I'm talking about people who were in detention in the district

22     prison, those non-Serbs that you mentioned earlier.  First of all, were

23     there criminal complaints against the detainees in the prison?

24        A.   The reports were filed for possession of fire-arms, for

25     undermining the system, and things like that.  Also for divulging

Page 9868

 1     information or of their being members of an organisation, et cetera.

 2        Q.   You say "for undermining the system;" what do you mean by that?

 3        A.   It probably referred to Yugoslavia, but, at the time, Bosnia was

 4     recognised, and anyone who was against Yugoslavia was undermining the

 5     state of Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   So you're saying that somebody who was against Yugoslavia -- and

 7     you're saying that Bosnia was recognised.  Can you just clarify what you

 8     mean by that?

 9        A.   No, no.  I said that Bosnia was recognised on the 6th of March,

10     but nevertheless they acted according to the law of Yugoslavia, which

11     stipulates that if you are against, I don't know, the army, the JNA, that

12     would mean that you were against Yugoslavia and you would therefore be

13     committing a criminal offence.

14        Q.   Again, it is the bit that you said about "... at the time, Bosnia

15     was recognised, and anyone who was against Yugoslavia ..."

16             So are you saying that anyone who was for Bosnian's independence

17     was considered to be against Yugoslavia?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  I think that's how it's been formulated in

19     the criminal reports.  Anyone who voted for independence of Bosnia ended

20     up with a file -- report filed against them.

21        Q.   Very well.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we display P1300 marked for identification,

23     tab 28, please.  It's P1311.  I see the numbers have been reversed with

24     the previous document.  So it's P1311 marked for identification.  I

25     apologise.

Page 9869

 1        Q.   Now, sir, can you tell us if you've seen this document before?

 2        A.   You mean this case file?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   Not this covering page.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to the next page, please.

 6        Q.   Now, it says here that it's issued by the public security station

 7     in Doboj and addressed to the public prosecutor's office in Doboj.  And

 8     it's a criminal report filed against the individuals named here.  Now,

 9     the first person named here is Senad Mesic.  We can see the other names.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to the next page.

11        Q.   I'd like you to pay attention to the names and their ethnicity,

12     if you can tell.

13        A.   They are Bosniaks.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In the English version, if we can go to page 4.

15     And in the B/C/S version that would be page 3.

16        Q.   Now, we see here that -- we are still waiting for the B/C/S

17     version to come up.  Very well.

18             Can you see here that it says --

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can scroll down in the B/C/S version a little

20     bit, thank you.

21        Q.   -- that this criminal file is based on Article 119 of the

22     Criminal Code of SFRY.

23             Are you familiar with criminal reports being issued under this

24     article of the Criminal Code?

25        A.   This was drafted by the criminal investigation service, probably

Page 9870

 1     following certain instructions.  So I didn't analyse any specific

 2     criminal report.

 3        Q.   You are saying "following certain instructions."  Whose

 4     instructions would these be, and what instructions are you referring to?

 5        A.   Probably the instructions relating to how these criminal reports

 6     are drafted, and that should be based on the Criminal Code.  At the time,

 7     Republika Srpska applied the SFRY Criminal Code, and the police inspector

 8     who drafted this made reference to this law, and I suppose that the

 9     prosecutor and the court worked on the same basis.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we can go to page 7 in the B/C/S version, and

11     it's also page -- page 8 in the English version, I believe.  No, it's --

12     in the B/C/S version can we go back one page.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Whose signature is that?

14        A.   Chief of the criminal investigation service.

15        Q.   And on this date, which is the 18th of May, who was the chief of

16     the criminal investigation service?

17        A.   Mladen Vulic.

18        Q.   Would this type of document reach your desk?

19        A.   Well, I don't remember.

20        Q.   Were you informed that such criminal reports were being compiled?

21        A.   I knew that they were being submitted and I knew that if a

22     criminal report is submitted it depended on the prosecutor and the court,

23     whether the prosecutor would reject this criminal report if it was

24     flawed, and if it was not written properly by this person here, and the

25     people concerned would have no problems consequently.

Page 9871

 1        Q.   Now, you told us of examples where people were being investigated

 2     for having voted for the independence of Bosnia.  What did you make of

 3     these investigations and criminal reports at the time?

 4        A.   A criminal report is filed to the district prosecutor, and if it

 5     is accepted by the prosecutor, it's then forwarded to the court.  If not,

 6     the people would be released from detention.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask for this document which was MFI'd to

 8     be entered.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, but could we just clarify a few things in

10     relation to the jurisdiction of these crimes, because I noted that in the

11     document, the group, Mr. Zenad Mesic and others, were being suspected of

12     having committed crimes against the army according to Article 119 of the

13     Criminal Code.  My question is:  Wouldn't that fall under the

14     jurisdiction of the military courts?

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, you heard the Honourable Judge's question.  What

17     can you say about the jurisdiction of the civil courts on these matters?

18        A.   Well, I think it was under the jurisdiction of military court,

19     but at that time there were no military courts set up as yet.  And

20     probably at some higher level of authority, and maybe from the centre,

21     ordered, given that the military prosecutor and the courts were not in

22     operation as yet, to do that.  I do know that a number of cases were then

23     transferred to the military courts once they were established.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And when were the military courts set up in

25     Doboj?

Page 9872

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.  You were requesting the

 3     deMFIcation of this document?

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As it remains, P1311, Your Honours.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, still in the issue of the detainees in the district

 8     prison, were you aware that policemen, investigators from the MUP, were

 9     taking prisoners out of the prison for interrogation?

10        A.   I probably knew about that.  I don't know.

11        Q.   And were you aware of occurrences of physical force being applied

12     on the detainees by members of the MUP?

13        A.   Well, I heard that there were MUP members who applied force.

14        Q.   And was -- to your knowledge these were members of which section

15     of the MUP?

16        A.   The -- must have been done by members of the criminal

17     investigation service.  Should have been done.

18        Q.   Of the SJB or the CSB, if you know?

19        A.   Both from the station and the centre.  Both were involved in

20     these cases.

21        Q.   At the beginning of the day today you mentioned that on the day

22     of the take-over the Muslim and Croat members of your police station were

23     arrested and detained.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display on the screen P1315, please.

25     Tab 6.

Page 9873

 1        Q.   Now, sir, this is a log-book obtained from the prison -- from the

 2     district prison in Doboj.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we go, please, to page 4.

 4        Q.   And do you see the individual at number 67 -- I apologise,

 5     number 64?

 6        A.   Yes.  It was about the individual Mirza Lisinovic who was

 7     arrested on that night between the 2nd and 3rd and was taken to prison.

 8        Q.   Do you know how long he was detained in the prison?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Do you know if any -- sorry.

11        A.   I think for a month perhaps.

12        Q.   Do you know if anything happened to him while he was in

13     detention?

14        A.   He was beaten up.  Later on he was released.  And I know he is

15     alive and well living in Sarajevo now.

16        Q.   Can you go down to 84, please.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we scroll down a little bit.

18        Q.   Do you recognise the name at number 84?

19        A.   Refik Buljubasic.  Policeman.  I don't know when he was detained

20     but I do know that he was detained.

21        Q.   And what was his role in the police station?

22        A.   I think he was an ordinary policeman.

23        Q.   And if you go up two names, number 82?

24        A.   Karlo Grgic.

25        Q.   Did you know him?

Page 9874

 1        A.   I did.  He used to be a commander.  Then in 1991 or 1992 he was

 2     assistant commander, I believe.  I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   And when you say assistant commander, which organisation was he a

 4     member of?

 5        A.   I'm talking about the pre-war period, the general police station

 6     where Irfan was the commander.

 7        Q.   I understand.  Do you know what happened to him while he was in

 8     detention, Mr. Grgic?

 9        A.   I heard that the Red Berets had taken him somewhere and killed

10     him.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can put this document away for the time

13     being.

14        Q.   Now, other than the district prison in Doboj, do you know of

15     other detention centres that were being maintained at the time in Doboj,

16     as of the 2nd of May?

17        A.   There was the military prison at Usora, military prison at Bare.

18     The Red Berets held a prison facility near Perca.

19        Q.   What is this prison facility near Perca?

20        A.   It was a camp that they had on the road to Sarajevo.  It was a

21     private home that was turned into a prison.

22        Q.   You told us of a military prison in Usora, at Bare.  Were you

23     aware also of a disco used as a detention centre?

24        A.   That's what I meant when I said Perca; that was the Percin Disco

25     that was kept by the Red Berets.

Page 9875

 1        Q.   And to your knowledge were there any interrogations taking place

 2     at Percin's Disco?

 3        A.   I think that there were, yes.

 4        Q.   And do you know whether any inspectors from the MUP participated

 5     in these interrogations?

 6        A.   I don't remember, but I suppose so.

 7        Q.   Sir, were you aware of inspectors from the MUP, from the MUP

 8     headquarters, visiting Doboj during the summer of 1992?

 9        A.   I wasn't.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display 65 ter 1274.  Tab 50.

11        Q.   This document is dated the 12th of August.  It is a report to the

12     minister.  If we go to page 3, you can see that it is -- under the

13     signature block you have the name of Milos Zuban, chief of police.  Did

14     you know Mr. Zuban?

15        A.   I didn't.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And if we go back to the first page, please.

17        Q.   Now, this document refers to meetings held in August with

18     Andrija Bjelosevic in the presence of Mirko Blazanovic.  Do you remember

19     Mr. Blazanovic?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Okay.  And it discusses the issues, the work of the centre.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If you go to, in the English version, the second

23     page.  And in the B/C/S version also the second page, please.

24        Q.   Do you see the second paragraph which deals with the selection of

25     candidates for the employment in the police.  And in the middle of the

Page 9876

 1     paragraph it talks about the reserve police team being currently reduced

 2     and examined in order to correspond to real current needs, and it

 3     mentions you here.  Can you tell us in which context this issue arose?

 4        A.   Well, we had 1300 policemen, which wasn't usual at all.  We were

 5     more of a military unit than a police force in that context.  The

 6     minister probably ordered that the numbers be reduced, which we probably

 7     did.  Reserve police stations were to be set up again, and the surplus

 8     staff were assigned to the army.

 9        Q.   Do you remember being informed about this order from the

10     minister, from the ministry, and how was it conveyed to you?

11        A.   I don't remember that, but I probably received a written order,

12     as did the other stations.

13        Q.   And who would you receive this written order from?

14        A.   Probably the centre chief.  If the minister addressed this to the

15     chief of the centre, then he would receive it, and he would in turn write

16     letters to the chiefs of stations.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I won't seek to tender this document at this

18     time.  We will have a witness to talk about it.  If we could just mark it

19     for identification at this point, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE HALL:  So marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1341 marked for identification,

22     Your Honours.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I be excused just a moment.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display, please, Exhibit 1D00072,

Page 9877

 1     please.  Tab 69 on the list.  This is not it.  1D00072.  That's the one.

 2     This is not the document that I seek to show.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps we can take the break at this point,

 4     Mr. Demirdjian.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It is there.  If I can just ask him very

 6     quickly, since we've pulled it up now.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 9        Q.   Sir, just as an order by the Ministry of the Interior about

10     submitting daily incident bulletins, and it's addressed to all CSBs.  Do

11     you remember on what frequency you were submitting reports to your CSB?

12        A.   I don't remember.

13        Q.   What was the normal way of proceeding with reports to the CSB?

14     How frequently were you to report to your superiors?

15        A.   I don't remember.  Based on these dispatches, well, we had to

16     send reports.  Now, whether it was the service, the administrative

17     department, or the police detachment, but I do believe that we sent

18     reports on a regular basis pursuant to the orders from the

19     Security Services Centre.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Might be a suitable time to take the break now,

21     Your Honours.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Before we resume, I note for the record that we

Page 9878

 1     reconvene for this last session under Rule 15 bis, Judge Harhoff being

 2     absent.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I continue?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, you mentioned to us earlier the

 8     Special Police detachment.  I would like you to look at a document.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Which is 65 ter 2387, at tab 55.

10        Q.   It's a report on the activities of the Doboj Police Detachment

11     dated the 5th of September.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now, before we look at the document, could you

13     please -- could we go to the last page, to the signature block, please.

14        Q.   Do you recognise this signature?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Whose signature is it?

17        A.   Detachment commander Bosko Djukic.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now, let's go back to the first page.

20        Q.   The document is -- the header of the document seems to suggest

21     that it is from the CSB Doboj, and it is written in Doboj on the

22     5th of September, 1992.  Do you know if this document would have been

23     sent up the chain of command?  To was this document -- for whom was this

24     document drafted?

25        A.   The detachment was set up immediately following the 2nd of May,

Page 9879

 1     and was -- this was probably sent to the Doboj CSB.

 2        Q.   Very well.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to page 3 in the B/C/S version and

 4     page 4 in the English version.  I apologise, page 3 in the English

 5     version, which is also page 3 in the B/C/S version.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, first of all, do you see the initial paragraph which says

 7     that the Doboj Police Detachment was formed on the 8th of May, initially

 8     consisted of 1300 police officers, which you were telling us about

 9     earlier, and the detachment was re-organised and the number was reduced

10     to 720.  Is that an accurate reflection of the events back then?

11        A.   Yes, I think it is accurate.

12        Q.   The next paragraph says that a total of 184 active and reserve

13     police officers participated in the liberation of Doboj and that the

14     entire police force together with the Serbian army has taken part in

15     fights on the northern front, et cetera.  Is that also an accurate

16     reflection of the events?

17        A.   On the night between the 2nd and the 3rd, as far as I know it was

18     only the Red Berets who had taken control of the centre.  The police

19     force probably took part in the subsequent activities.  It could

20     definitely not have had 184 active members since after the second of the

21     100 active servicemen who should have been there, there were maybe 30 of

22     them.  Now, this could have been the case only when the manpower was

23     1300.  After the 3rd, the army subordinated all of the police stations

24     that were within its area of responsibility in order to engage them in

25     combat activities.

Page 9880

 1        Q.   A little lower in that paragraph it deals with special combat on

 2     the 12th of July, and it deals with the southern front.  Do you know

 3     anything about these events?

 4        A.   Well, at the time, the BH Army attacked these lines, breached

 5     them, and advanced toward the centre of town.

 6        Q.   And on the 12th of July, is that a day that sticks out for you?

 7        A.   I know that the lines were breached.  That was when the

 8     Red Berets were attacked because they were stationed along the line where

 9     combat took place.  That's where their camp was.  It was for this reason

10     that what ensued was --

11        Q.   Sorry, continue.  I interrupted you.

12        A.   Incidents occurred concerning human shields and all the other

13     problems that were present in the area.

14        Q.   Now, what do you know about this human shields incident?

15        A.   Based on what I heard later on, the BH Army attacked the area

16     where the Red Berets were billeted.  I think that two members of the

17     Red Berets were killed.  As a result, based on my understanding of these

18     events, the Red Berets took out the individuals detained in the disco and

19     used them as human shields and that's how they came to be killed along

20     that line.

21        Q.   Now, are you saying the Red Berets took out these individuals;

22     was it only the Red Berets that were involved in this event?

23        A.   I think that they were in charge.  Now, as for others, if there

24     were members of the army present, they would have taken them along too

25     and if there were policemen in the area.

Page 9881

 1        Q.   The document here says that the police is engaged on the southern

 2     front.  To your knowledge were they also involved in these events?

 3        A.   They probably didn't take part directly there.  If there was a

 4     reserve police station in the area, it was subordinated to the army and

 5     together they defended the general area.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to page 5 in the English version,

 7     which is page 4 in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   And under item L, Mr. Petrovic, we see some statistics here.  For

 9     example, it says here that the Special Police detachment was involved in

10     17 convoys escorted.  Do you happen to know what these convoys consisted

11     of?

12        A.   Perhaps these were convoys heading from Bijeljina and Serbia

13     toward Banja Luka carrying fuel and food.  As soon as the corridor opened

14     up, large convoys set off toward the Krajina, that's to say, Banja Luka.

15        Q.   Below that we see a number of facilities secured by the police.

16     It says 12.  Do you know what facilities the police were securing in the

17     town of Doboj?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  The municipality building, banks, post

19     offices, the railway station, the bus station.

20        Q.   And now, this is the document that you say was signed by

21     Mr. Bosko Djukic.  He is the individual you referred to earlier on today?

22        A.   No.  I was talking about Zoran Djekic, who was assaulted.  He was

23     the assistant commander, whereas this other one was the detachment

24     commander.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 9882

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I ask for this document to be admitted,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1345, Your Honours.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, did you know an individual by the name of

 7     Milutin Blaskovic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber who this person was?

10        A.   Up until 1991, Milutin Blaskovic was the chief of police at the

11     public security centre.

12        Q.   And what happened in 1991?

13        A.   He was retired.  And then in 1992 he was mobilised and joined the

14     police force.

15        Q.   And for how long was he in the police force, to your knowledge?

16        A.   Before the war?

17        Q.   After the war, in 1992.  Sorry, during the war.  When you said he

18     was mobilised, how long was he ...

19        A.   From 1992 through to the end of the war in 1995, I believe.

20        Q.   Very well.  You were mentioning to us the Red Berets.  I'd like

21     to look -- I'd like you to look at a document.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  65 ter 3082, which is at tab 22, please.

23        Q.   This is another payroll from the CSB and it indicates that this

24     is a special group.  Can you tell us more about this document?

25        A.   This is a group that arrived from Ozren.  Save for

Page 9883

 1     Radojica Bozovic, I think all the other ones are not real people.  And I

 2     think Radojica is the only authentic name.  But they had their nicknames.

 3        Q.   And why is it that you say that the other ones are not real

 4     people?

 5        A.   I don't think anyone knew their names.  Only their nicknames were

 6     used.  And what happened here is -- well, that's an assumption on my

 7     part, because I don't think they were able to learn their names.  And I

 8     know that it was strictly forbidden for anyone to inquire after their

 9     names.  And I don't believe at all that these are their genuine names.

10        Q.   Other than the person at position number 1, Radojica Bozovic; is

11     that what you are saying?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And when you talked about Radojica Bozovic, you were saying that

14     he was the leader of the Red Berets; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And to your knowledge was he and his unit paid by the CSB Doboj?

17        A.   Based on this, I can see that they all received their pay in

18     Doboj.  I can see that even those who were from Banja Luka, they received

19     their monies in Doboj.  So it must have been the case that the

20     Crisis Staff earmarked funds for their pay.  And I can see that even at

21     this time when they were not in Doboj but rather up at Ozren they

22     received their salaries there.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can I ask Your Honours to admit this document,

24     please.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 9884

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1346, Your Honours.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I'd like you to look at another document which is

 4     P405.  Tab 58.  In the B/C/S version -- well, let's leave it there for

 5     now.  This is a report from the 22nd of October, 1992, the

 6     Ministry of Interior in Bijeljina, about a visit to the CSB in Doboj and

 7     the SJBs within the Doboj CSB.

 8             On the first page in B/C/S, and that's the second page in

 9     English, there's a discussion about the reduction of members of the SJB.

10     And here we can read that:

11             "The CSB chief believes that the reduction should have taken

12     place, but it seems that the SJB management does not wish to implement

13     this decision."

14             Can you explain to us the circumstances surrounding this issue?

15        A.   I can't remember, but I suppose that it wasn't easy of that

16     number of people who were at the station to have a reduction.  For

17     example, if you have 700 policemen, you should have 300 and the people

18     should be sent to the army after they had been together for six months.

19     Probably why there was resistance to that at the stations.

20        Q.   At the end of this paragraph they say that the numbers should be

21     reduced to 480 police officers instead of 875.  Are those numbers an

22     accurate reflection of what was happening back then?

23        A.   I can't remember.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we can go to page 4 in the B/C/S version and

25     page 6 in the English version, we can see the section entitled "Crime

Page 9885

 1     Prevention and Detection."

 2        Q.   Can you see that, Mr. Petrovic?  Do you see the second

 3     sentence --

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the second sentence which starts with:

 6             "All public security stations were told to emphasise," and we

 7     have to go to the next page in English, please, "the documentation of war

 8     crimes against the Serbian people ..."

 9             Do you remember receiving instructions on documenting war crimes

10     against the Serbian population only?

11        A.   I can't remember.

12        Q.   Now, we saw the criminal reports filed earlier.  We saw one

13     example of criminal reports filed against non-Serbs.  Do you know if any

14     criminal reports were filed during the summer of 1992, the end of the

15     year, for any war crimes committed against the non-Serbian population?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   When you say you don't remember, you don't remember that any were

18     filed, or you don't remember the topic at all?

19        A.   I don't know if there were any criminal reports of that sort.

20        Q.   I'd like to move to another topic.  In relation to a group which

21     was led by the individual we mentioned before, Milan Savic, could you

22     tell us anything that you know about a certain group that was led by this

23     man?

24        A.   Well, Milan Savic worked before the war in the criminal and

25     forensic department, the section which was called counter-subversive.

Page 9886

 1     Stankovic had an attachment in town itself, and he was a member of that

 2     detachment, but I don't know exactly what his task was.  In the meantime,

 3     he was appointed assistant chief of the centre.  It took place either in

 4     April or May; I can't remember exactly.

 5        Q.   And when he became assistant chief of the centre, do you know if

 6     at that time he created a group that was active in another municipality?

 7        A.   No, but he was present in Teslic and in Modrica, and I think that

 8     with the Red Berets - but I don't know on whose authority he could issue

 9     orders - they went to Teslic and Modrica, he and the Red Berets.

10        Q.   I'd like you to take a look at 65 ter 2788.  Now, this is a

11     document from the CSB in Doboj on the 17th of July, 1992.  You were just

12     mentioning Teslic.  This was sent to the investigating judge of the

13     Teslic lower court and it is in relation to Dobrivoje Culibrk and others.

14     Do you know Dobrivoje Culibrk?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Can you tell us about him?  What was his role and function in

17     1992?

18        A.   He worked in the state security service, and I know only of one

19     instance when he was arrested near Tesanj for transporting explosives.

20     And this is how I remember him before the war.  He was subsequently

21     released at the intervention by the army because the army claimed that

22     that was their explosive.  I only know that the situation became quite

23     complicated.  I know that Culibrk and Milan Savic were good friends

24     before the war, during the war, and after the war.  And I even

25     think - I'm not one hundred per cent sure - that this is the signature of

Page 9887

 1     Milan Savic.  This signature on behalf of the CSB chief.

 2        Q.   Yes, we can see that it's signed for the CSB chief here.  Now,

 3     this document requests the immediate release of Culibrk, then we have a

 4     few names:  Pijunovic, Tekic, Spasojevic, and Djuric.  Did you know these

 5     men, besides Culibrk?

 6        A.   Well, I know those were men of very dubious characteristics.

 7     They were prone to criminality.

 8        Q.   And do you know whether this group of men were known under a

 9     nickname, whether their group had a name?

10        A.   I know that they went by the name of Mices or Mice in Teslic.

11     Whether they were actually members of that group, I don't know.

12        Q.   And do you know under which circumstances this document was

13     issued?  It appears that they are in detention and their release is

14     requested.  Do you know anything more about this?

15        A.   No, I don't.  That was taking place in Teslic.  I know that the

16     people were detained and that these men were from Doboj.  The chief of

17     the centre and Savic, his assistant, went to Teslic, but what happened up

18     there, I don't know.

19        Q.   And you're saying that this signature is probably Mr. Savic's; is

20     that what you told us?

21        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

22        Q.   And would the chief of the centre have been aware of this

23     document?  Do you know if he was?

24        A.   I don't know about that.

25        Q.   And can you tell us what was the relationship between

Page 9888

 1     Andrija Bjelosevic and Milan Savic during that time?

 2        A.   I don't know exactly.  He was a deputy because there was no

 3     assistant position at the time so he was a deputy.  What their

 4     relationship was after the Teslic events, I don't know.  I know that they

 5     were on good terms before that.

 6        Q.   Very well.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we'll hear more about this group

 8     and the Teslic, but at this time could I ask for this document to be

 9     admitted.

10             JUDGE HALL:  I'm not sure I appreciate that there's a sufficient

11     nexus between the document and the witness, having regard to his -- what

12     he has said about it.  Isn't it somewhat remote from him?

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  He knows the individuals in this group.  He

14     knows who probably signed it.  It was issued from the --

15             JUDGE HALL:  That's putting it rather high when you said "who

16     probably signed it."  That was not my understanding of his recognition or

17     non-recognition of the signature, but please continue.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On the other hand, Mr. Demirdjian, we are talking

19     about an adjudicated fact, 1215.  No, sorry, 1216.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In relation to the signature of this document?

21     I know about the group, Your Honours --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In relation to the group, yes.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, but in relation to this letter and the

24     request for release of these individuals.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

Page 9889

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And if Your Honours remember with one of our

 2     previous --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And in relation to the release of these

 4     individuals as well.  But perhaps not the document, don't discuss that.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe the document might corroborate this

 6     adjudicated fact and substantiate other -- what other witnesses will say

 7     about this event.

 8             Now, since this is issued by the CSB of Doboj, and we have the

 9     subordinated SJB chief, it might be a good person to tender this document

10     through.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Inasmuch as it's -- and I thank Judge Delvoie for

12     point out that this emanates as it were from an adjudicated fact, it's

13     admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1342, Your Honours.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In relation to these events in Teslic,

16     Mr. Petrovic, I would like you to look at 65 ter 865.  Which is tab 53.

17     Just for the record it's 65 ter 835 -- 865, I apologise, 865.

18        Q.   This is an information on the arrest of a group of persons in

19     Teslic on the 30th of June.  And if you scroll down, sir, you will see

20     that that discusses Milan Savic we just talked about.  Now, in relation

21     to Savic here, you see that it says:

22             "We would like to mention that Savic was appointed assistant

23     chief of the Doboj CSB on 23 June 1992."

24             Do you -- does this reflect your recollection of the events back

25     then, that this was around the time that he was appointed?

Page 9890

 1        A.   Yes, I think he was appointed.

 2        Q.   And we see --

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And we would need to go to the next page in the

 4     B/C/S version and keep the document in English on that page.  Another

 5     page in the B/C/S version, the next page.  Right.

 6        Q.   Do you see the paragraph that starts with:

 7             "On 29 June 1992 when Dobrivoje Culibrk indicated that there were

 8     problems and he needed help, Milan Savic sent a group of 15 members of

 9     the Red Berets led by Slobodan Karagic."

10             You just mentioned a moment ago that Savic went to Teslic and

11     that he sent Red Berets; is this what you were talking about?

12        A.   Well, according to this, I see that Milan Savic issued an order

13     to the Red Berets commanded by Bozovic.  Slobodan Karagic was just a

14     platoon commander.

15        Q.   Very well.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we go to the page before last in the B/C/S

17     version, signature block.  That's the last page in the English version.

18        Q.   Does it there have the name of the chief of the centre?

19        A.   Andrija Bjelosevic.

20        Q.   Very well.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could I ask for that document to be admitted,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1343, Your Honours.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

Page 9891

 1        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, to your knowledge, what was the relationship, if

 2     you know, between the chief of the centre, Mr. Bjelosevic, and the

 3     members of this group, the Mice Group?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Do you know whether the Mice Group were, in fact, released after

 6     these documents were issued?

 7        A.   I don't remember that.

 8        Q.   Was it a known fact eventually that the Mice Group was released?

 9        A.   Well, I know that that was debated and that these men were from

10     Doboj, and, therefore, an attempt was made to create a conflict between

11     Teslic and Doboj on account of these men, but I can't remember if or when

12     they were released.

13        Q.   We've heard that these men were transferred to Doboj, at least

14     some members of this group, and that they were detained in a district

15     prison.  Were you aware of that?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could the witness be shown P835, please.  Which

18     is at tab 59.

19        Q.   You can see this is a document that was drafted by the

20     Banja Luka National Security Service.  And if you scroll down to the

21     second paragraph, it talks about Colonel Slavko Lisica making it

22     "possible for members of the Mice Group from Doboj, who had previously

23     been arrested, and a Special Police battalion from Doboj to take part in

24     war operations under the command of Andrija Bjelosevic."

25             Were you aware of this fact?

Page 9892

 1        A.   That Andrija was in charge in Teslic?

 2        Q.   The document here at the second paragraph says that the

 3     Mice Group were taking part in war operations under the command of

 4     Andrija Bjelosevic.  First of all, were you aware that Andrija Bjelosevic

 5     took part in war operations?

 6        A.   I know that after these events took place, Andrija Bjelosevic

 7     went to Teslic because it was under the jurisdiction of the Doboj Centre.

 8     I heard of him being arrested as well, but how it all evolved, I don't

 9     know.  Whether he took part in that, whether he organised something

10     there, I don't know.

11        Q.   Okay.  One last question on this issue.  This is a document

12     issued in November 1992, and it talks about the fact that this group was

13     previously arrested and that it is now taking part in war operations.

14     Did you know that they were released and they were taking part in war

15     operations; were you aware of that?  The Mice Group.

16        A.   No, I wasn't.

17        Q.   It mentions here Colonel Slavko Lisica.  Did you know this

18     colonel?

19        A.   Yes, I did.  He came to become a tactical group commander after

20     Simic left, and he was the commander of the Doboj Tactical Group.

21        Q.   Did you see him in Doboj in 1992?

22        A.   Yes, yes, I did, after he came, towards the end of September or

23     thereabouts.  I don't know.

24        Q.   And did he meet with municipal authorities in Doboj?

25        A.   Yes, he did.  He invited the municipal leadership separately, the

Page 9893

 1     company manager separately, he called us from the SUP as well, issued

 2     orders to us, and things like that.

 3        Q.   You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony today that you

 4     were the chief of the police station until December 1992 and that you

 5     were dismissed at that point.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber the

 6     circumstances surrounding your dismissal?

 7        A.   Well, as far as I know, in October there was a meeting held at

 8     General Ristic's --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction:  General Lisica office.

10             Witness, please repeat the answer.  We apologise.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12        Q.   There was a little problem.  I would ask you to repeat the answer

13     again, please, because it wasn't properly recorded.  Thank you.

14        A.   So in October a meeting was held in the office of General Lisica

15     attended by representatives of the centre, namely, Andrija Bjelosevic and

16     someone else - I don't know who.  There were also representatives of the

17     municipal authority, the councillors; and a decision was taken to dismiss

18     me from the position of the chief of the station.  I didn't know about

19     this meeting.  I only heard of it.

20        Q.   You were not present at this meeting then?

21        A.   No, that was the first meeting; it was followed by a second one;

22     and I think that somebody from the MUP of Republika Srpska was in

23     attendance as well because I saw the car that belonged to the

24     MUP of Republika Srpska.  The meeting was held in the municipal building,

25     and the same people attended.

Page 9894

 1        Q.   When did you find out about this meeting?

 2        A.   Afterwards.  Somebody who attended the meeting told me what the

 3     topic was.

 4        Q.   And was any reasons for your dismissal provided to you?

 5        A.   I was offended by the fact that these meetings were held in

 6     secrecy.  There was no need for that.  They could have invited me, told

 7     me the reasons for my dismissal; and they could have quite easily

 8     dismissed me provided there were enough grounds for that.  However, from

 9     what I could see from the written proposal for my dismissal, one of the

10     first reasons was my failure to restore order in the area of Doboj

11     municipality.  And also one of the points referred to my providing

12     protection to the Muslims, because a small number of Muslims worked in

13     the municipal building in the police station and the administrative

14     section.  And after that all of these people were sacked from their jobs.

15             I believe that I was guilty, but I wasn't the only one of that.

16     However, I was hurt by this dismissal because they never conducted any

17     interview with me.  We could have solved it differently.  They just

18     dismissed me and transferred me to a different job without any reason

19     whatsoever.  After that, I wasn't able to see any room for progress for

20     me.  My commander, who was more responsible than I, remained.  Therefore,

21     my suspicion that I had at the time will still remain suspicion regarding

22     my dismissal.

23             When I saw that no proper help could be provided, I tried to

24     provide individual help to some Muslims.  That's as much as I could do,

25     and I am prepared to answer for everything that I did wrongly.

Page 9895

 1        Q.   You said that the proposal --

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I believe page 72, line 4, I believe

 4     the witness said "my commander of police."

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 6        Q.   Yes, Mr. Petrovic, just to clarify the transcript here, it says

 7     that "my commander ... was more responsible than I."  Is this a correct

 8     or accurate reflection of what you just said?

 9        A.   I meant the detachment commander, not my commander.  The

10     commander of the police detachment that was there.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I have one more clarification, please.

12     Just before that the witness said "I believe that I was guilty, but I was

13     not the only one of that."

14             What did the witness mean by being guilty?  Being guilty of what?

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16        Q.   You heard Your Honour's question, if you could answer.  What did

17     you feel you were guilty of?

18        A.   Well, in my view, what had to be prevented at any cost was the

19     mistreatment and maltreatment of people.  In other words, if the

20     Red Berets arrived or if special units arrived from Banja Luka or

21     wherever, my belief was that they were going to contribute to the

22     restoration of law and order, rather than disrupt it.  It is difficult

23     for an individual who hails from Doboj to look at the way the events

24     unfold without being able to do anything.  And we received interventions

25     and calls from people on a daily basis complaining of abuse,

Page 9896

 1     mistreatment, beatings, and one was unable to do anything.  You could

 2     provide help as an individual, but you couldn't do anything else to

 3     ensure protection for these people.

 4        Q.   Now, you told us that these daily occurrences were happening, and

 5     you also told us that this was informed -- this information was provided

 6     to your superior, your CSB chief; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, I do believe that reports were written.  But let me repeat:

 8     This building is located in the centre of Doboj.  Everyone was aware of

 9     what was going on.  You can't tell me that those who were in the police

10     station, the Crisis Staff, the army, that they weren't aware of these

11     events.  All of these buildings are located in the centre of town.

12        Q.   And now we are coming to your dismissal.  You told us that a

13     proposal was written and sent to the MUP for your dismissal.  You didn't

14     tell us who wrote that dismissal -- or that proposal, I apologise.

15        A.   Following Lisica's letter, Andrija Bjelosevic drafted the

16     proposal because I believe that it was Lisica who actually got in touch

17     with Andrija Bjelosevic on this issue, and then Bjelosevic wrote a

18     proposal that I be removed.

19        Q.   Who did he send this proposal to?

20        A.   To Minister Stanisic.

21        Q.   And what happened after this proposal?

22        A.   I received a decision on my removal, and I was assigned to the

23     post of desk officer or inspector in charge of aliens.

24        Q.   What did the proposal say?  Did the proposal also include the

25     reasons for your removal?

Page 9897

 1        A.   No.  The formulation was, Is hereby removed, and that the

 2     responsibility of the chief of the station is to be investigated.

 3        Q.   I meant to talk about the proposal that was sent by Bjelosevic.

 4     Did that proposal include the reasons for which your dismissal was

 5     proposed?

 6        A.   Yes, it did.

 7        Q.   The two reasons you gave us earlier, the management of the police

 8     station and assisting Muslims, were those two reasons in the proposal?

 9        A.   I believe so.  The first reason was that I did not manage to

10     enforce law and order, the usual stuff.  Then under 2, provided

11     protection for Muslims which led to a decline in the morale of the police

12     and the army.

13        Q.   After this proposal was sent, you tell us you received the

14     decision.  Were you interviewed by anyone in the MUP leadership, in the

15     administration?  Was any procedure set into place to hear you?

16        A.   No.  That's what I hold against the minister as an individual,

17     the fact that he never heard what I had to say.  And then if he thought

18     that what I did was wrong, I would not hold it against him.

19        Q.   And this document, this proposal by Bjelosevic, to your knowledge

20     is it still available today?

21        A.   I think it can be found.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian -- if I -- perhaps first

24     Mr. Krgovic.

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  I apologise.  There is some -- one part is missing

Page 9898

 1     in the transcript.  It's line 74 [sic] -- page 74, line 90.  Because the

 2     last part of the witness response missing:  He said that were probably

 3     the Lisica's proposal.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Mr. Petrovic -- may I clarify that first,

 5     Your Honours?  Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, the answer here which you provided to us about the

 7     two reasons.  You said then under two, provided protection for Muslims

 8     which led to decline in the morale in the police and the army.  Was there

 9     anything else you said after that, because this is not recorded in the

10     transcript?

11        A.   No, no.  I said that first a meeting was held in October in

12     Lisica's office and that then they sent a letter to the centre and the

13     centre then formulated their proposal to the minister.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours had a question.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

16             For the witness, I'm still not very clear about the answer about

17     what the witness said about being guilty.  You were discussing with the

18     witness his -- the reasons of his dismissal.  And he said:

19             "I believe that I was guilty, but I wasn't the only one."  And

20     then he said:

21             "The commander of the detachment, who was more responsible than

22     I, remained."

23             So I'm a little bit puzzled about what he means about "I was

24     guilty."  Was he -- is he referring to --

25             Mr. Witness, are you referring to the reason for your dismissal,

Page 9899

 1     or are you referring to something else?  So, very precisely, what did you

 2     mean when you said "I believe that I was guilty"?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the statement of

 4     reasons given in Lisica's office for my removal.  Under one, that I

 5     didn't enforce law and order and then that vehicles were stolen during my

 6     term of office.  I don't know what it was that they wrote.  And I said

 7     that while these events were taking place, I seem to have been the only

 8     one found guilty because I was the only one removed.  I wasn't present at

 9     the meeting, and I'm not aware of what it was that they discussed, but

10     what I said was that somebody else should have been held accountable as

11     well because all these events took place in the centre.  This is what

12     makes me suspicious, the fact that I was the only one to have been

13     removed.  And I'm puzzled by this need to remove from office only one

14     individual and that's me.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Petrovic, I understand now.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, in relation to this matter, can you, perhaps,

18     explain to the Trial Chamber what was your relationship with

19     Mr. Bjelosevic in 1992?

20        A.   Well, I was not on good terms with him.

21        Q.   Was there a reason for that?  Was there any specific reason why?

22        A.   I think that we had a different approach to work.  Before the

23     war, I was a policeman, whereas Andrija Bjelosevic was not.  In my view,

24     what was required was more discipline and more work, and I believe that

25     we were capable of doing the job.

Page 9900

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, before I complete, there's one

 2     last topic I'd like to address.  And we have under adjudicated facts 1264

 3     the ethnic break-down of the municipality of Doboj which said that

 4     40 per cent were Muslim, before the war, 39 Serb, et cetera.

 5             There's one document that I hadn't placed on the list, but I

 6     discussed with the Defence during the break, we have the ethnic map of

 7     Doboj which we've uploaded as document 10236.06.  With Your Honours'

 8     leave, I would just like to display that document to the witness and see

 9     if he can comments on that.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, I'm about to show you a map of Doboj, I didn't have

13     a chance to show it to you earlier.  It is in relation to the

14     municipality of Doboj and the ethnic composition.  And this is, I

15     believe, in 1991.  Now, we can see that the municipality or the villages

16     or the towns in the municipality are colour coded according to the

17     majority ethnic group.  And we can see that there's Bosnian Croats in

18     red, Bosnian Serbs in blue, Bosniaks in green.  If you pay attention to

19     this map, would you comment on how accurate this is and if it's an

20     accurate reflection of the ethnic distribution in the municipality?

21        A.   I believe it is accurate.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And to your knowledge, at the end of 1992 and in the

23     following years, did the ethnic composition in the municipality of

24     Doboj -- was it affected by the events in 1992?

25        A.   Yes, it was.  However, an important point that needs to be made:

Page 9901

 1     Doboj East, that's to say, the area in direction of Tuzla, that's to say,

 2     Brezica Velike and Brezica Mala, Lokotnica [phoen], all these settlements

 3     in the direction of Tuzla, if you can see them; that's Doboj East.  And

 4     as of 1992, it no longer was part of Doboj municipality.  As for

 5     Doboj South, Metuzici [phoen], that stayed with Doboj municipality.  As

 6     for Alibegovac, Metlovac [phoen], they belonged to Usora municipality.

 7     They belong to the Federation as they did back in 1992.  All the rest

 8     falls under Doboj municipality back in 1992.  As for Jahovac and

 9     Komarica, they were populated by Croats who left in 1992.

10        Q.   And I was mentioning earlier that it is an admitted facts in this

11     case that according to the 1991 census the municipality was made of

12     40 per cent Muslims, 39 per cent of Serbs; what was the impact of the

13     conflict on these percentages?

14        A.   As I've just said, if you take Doboj East and Doboj South and

15     Usora staying as they are, nobody moved out -- well, all the other areas

16     in the municipality, the population largely moved out, and only a small

17     percentage remained until the end of the war in 1995 when the population

18     gradually started returning to the area.  Well, roughly, there were

19     40.000 Bosniaks; 20.000 remained in Doboj East and Doboj South; and

20     20.000 remained in Doboj town and surroundings.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last sentence.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honour --

23        Q.   Mr. Petrovic, would you repeat the last part of your sentence.

24     The interpreters didn't catch it.

25        A.   There was a total of 40.000 Bosniaks; that's before the war.

Page 9902

 1     20.000 Bosniak stayed behind in Doboj East, South, and Usora; and 20.000

 2     remained in the area of Republika Srpska, that is to say, the rest of the

 3     Doboj municipality.  Now, as for -- so just a small percentage, a small

 4     fraction, remained during the war, and a large majority moved out and

 5     stayed out until the end of the war.  So I said roughly 20.000.

 6        Q.   And you are telling us that roughly 20 -- of the 20.000 -- can

 7     you clarify to us by the end of the war what was, roughly speaking, the

 8     percentage of Bosniaks and Croats left in Doboj?

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, wouldn't it be easier to stay

10     with numbers now, rather than percentages?  We have -- the witness said

11     there were 20.000 in Doboj Centre before the war; 20.000 other ones in

12     south and east, and they stayed; and if I understand it well, most of the

13     20.000 in Doboj Centre moved out.  Is that right?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and the surrounding places as

15     well.  They left.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Then after the war in 1995, how many did return

17     from those 20.000 who left?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Post-2000, all of them returned.

19     That was when the bulk of them returned.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.

21             Your Honours, can I ask for this ethnic map to be admitted.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1344, Your Honours.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I have no more questions, Your Honours.

25     Thank you.

Page 9903

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a practical

 3     proposal to make.  I cannot finish any of the topics that I mean to

 4     discuss with the witness in the remaining time, and I suggest that we

 5     start our cross-examination tomorrow.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Whereas I'm reluctant to waste the 10 minutes, I

 7     understand the practicality of your suggestion, Mr. Cvijetic.  So we

 8     would have to rise now.

 9             Mr. Petrovic, you having been sworn as a witness -- thank you,

10     Mr. Cvijetic.

11             Mr. Petrovic, having been sworn as a witness in this matter - as

12     you would have gathered, we are about to take the adjournment - but you

13     having been sworn as a witness, I'm obliged to point out to you that you

14     cannot have any communication with counsel from either side in this

15     matter.  And in such conversations as you may have outside of the

16     Chamber, you can't discuss your testimony with anyone.

17             So we will reconvene in this courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00.

18     Thank you.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

22                           May, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.