Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10471

 1                           Wednesday, 19 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good everybody in

 6     and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus

 7     Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Good afternoon to everyone.  May we have the appearances for the

10     day, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

12     assisted by Crispian Smith, Case Manager, for the Prosecution.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.  On behalf

14     of Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Ivana

15     Batista.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

17     Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20             MS. KORNER:  Before the witness comes in, can I just mention very

21     shortly two, maybe three, matters.

22             The first is this.  We hadn't forgotten that last week

23     Judge Delvoie asked us for a list of witnesses up to the adjournment.

24     That will be with the Court and the Defence hopefully in fact tomorrow.

25     We're just refining the last few witnesses.

Page 10472

 1             The second matter is this, and I think I've mentioned on one or

 2     two occasions before, we will be filing a motion next week in respect of

 3     the witnesses we wish to add to replace the adjudicated facts which were

 4     not granted or reversed.

 5             Your Honours, of necessity we have to explain why we say the

 6     witnesses are necessary, refer to the adjudicated facts and to the

 7     matters on the indictment, and we would ask for an extension of the word

 8     limit in this case.  Could we have an extension up to 5.000 words.  I

 9     don't think we'll need 5.000, but just to be safe.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Granted.

11             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

12             And the last matter is this, I don't want to delay today's

13     witness, because of the videolink, but I would like to invite

14     Your Honours to reconsider yesterday's ruling when he's finished.  I

15     don't anticipate that he is going to take as long as the Defence said

16     from conversations, certainly, that I've had with Mr. Krgovic.

17             And I've had an opportunity now to read the cases that were

18     referred to -- to by Mr. O'Sullivan, and I would like, if I may, to ask

19     Your Honours, as I say, to reconsider the ruling in respect of yesterday.

20             But, as I say, that can wait.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it's about -- sorry.  I didn't make it

25     clear obviously.

Page 10473

 1             The ruling Your Honours made about the non-admittance of any of

 2     the articles yesterday.

 3             However, I forgot to mention that, Your Honours, we've had no

 4     ruling on document which is tab 52, at the moment, on the list for

 5     today's witness.

 6             Can I say straight away, although we did file this some time ago

 7     and I have reminded the legal officer about this, and indeed reminded him

 8     against yesterday, I don't need to use it with this witness but it will

 9     be used by the witness who is coming next week.  Subject to Your Honours'

10     ruling, of course.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  52 of today's witness?

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours will see, it says there -- it

13     formed part of a motion which I'm not going to go into because we're in

14     open session.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is it 65 ter number 2839?

16             MS. KORNER:  It is.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

18                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

19             JUDGE HALL:  I see the Court Officer on the screen, and I need

20     her, first of all, to confirm that she can hear us in Sarajevo.

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

22     Yes, the connection is working ... and I can hear you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And I take it that the witness is there with you.

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The witness is not here in the

25     witness room because I was informed that there were procedural matters.

Page 10474

 1     I will bring him.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, the witness is

 5     present in the courtroom -- in the videolink room.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Witness, can you hear me?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  I would now invite the Court Officer to have you

10     make the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare I will only

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir, you may resume your seat.

14             The declaration that you would have just made binds you as a

15     witness to testify truthfully under pain of -- of -- of the power that

16     the Tribunal has to deal with false testimony.  I would begin by asking

17     to you state your name, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branko Peric.

19             JUDGE HALL:  And your date of birth is what?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] January 10, 1954.

21             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your profession?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a lawyer by profession.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity, please?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 10475

 1             You, as -- as may have been explained to you, as would have been

 2     explained to you, you are, although not physically present in The Hague,

 3     are now sworn as a witness in the proceedings of the Tribunal and the

 4     Tribunal is receiving your evidence by videolink.  The -- you would have

 5     given evidence previously before the Tribunal and/or in one of the

 6     countries in the region.

 7             Would you confirm that, please?

 8             MS. KORNER:  He's a judge --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             MS. KORNER:  He's a judge at the State Court.  He is not a --

11     he's never given evidence.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Oh.  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

13             The -- I would explain the procedure to you.

14             The -- and you would be aware of this, having regard to your own

15     profession, that the side calling - in this case, the Prosecution - would

16     begin by asking you questions.  And, in terms were time, the amount of

17     time that has been allotted to them is two and a half hours in total.

18     After which the counsel for each of the accused would have an opportunity

19     to cross-examine you, and they have asked for a total of five hours

20     between themselves.  After which there may be re-examination and the

21     Chamber may have some questions of you.

22             In order to expedite the record-keeping and the other ancillary

23     matters that support the way witnesses -- testimonies are led at the

24     Tribunal, the sittings do not ordinarily extend beyond an hour and a half

25     and indeed are a few minutes short of that.  And so we would take a break

Page 10476

 1     initially at the -- after about an hour and 20 minutes then, in 20

 2     minutes we would resume, and then there is another session of similar

 3     length, and we would adjourn for the day at 7.00 the -- local time, by

 4     local time I mean the time in The Hague, and you are scheduled to

 5     continue your testimony tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the -- again I'm

 6     using local time.

 7             Now not withstanding what I would have just said in terms of

 8     regular and usual times of sittings and breaks, if, at any time, there is

 9     a need for you to take a break for whatever reason, if you would indicate

10     to the Court Officer who is with you, and the Chamber will deal with --

11     will seek to accommodate you.

12             Do you have any questions before I invite counsel for the

13     Prosecution to begin?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I understood.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

16                           WITNESS:  BRANKO PERIC

17                           [Witness testified through interpreter]

18                           [Witness testified via videolink]

19                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

20        Q.   Judge Peric, good afternoon.  Can we start, please, by --

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   Can we start, please, by having up on the screen, please, the

23     biography that you kindly provided us, which is 10359.03, and it's at

24     tab 77 bis of the document binder.

25             Tab 77 bis for the Judge.

Page 10477

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Just so if we see your professional history, as you told the

 4     Court, you were a lawyer.  Then for our purposes the relevant time is

 5     that you were a -- the public prosecutor in Teslic between May of 1992

 6     and June of 1995.  I think that made --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Then do you become a journalist and then return to the law as a,

 9     first of all, a member of the High Judicial and Prosecutorial Council in

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  You then became a judge in the Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina Court in 2003.  You are still there.  And you were also for

12     four years president of the Bosnian High Judicial and

13     Prosecutorial Council; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And I think that council has the responsibility of selecting the

16     judges and prosecutors who are authorised to appear in the State Court of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo; is that right?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Now, again briefly, can I deal -- sorry, before I do that.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I don't know whether you think this

21     something that's worth having exhibited.  I've given the material parts

22     of it.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Does it add to anything that's on the record?  I

24     suppose for the sake of convenience it doesn't hurt to have it but ...

25             MS. KORNER:  In that case, Your Honour, may it -- can it be

Page 10478

 1     admitted and marked, please.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked as an exhibit.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1361, Your Honours.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   Next, as a matter of form, Judge Peric, I have to ask you about

 6     your interviews.  I think it's right that you were interviewed by the

 7     Office of the Prosecutor, first of all, in December of 2001.  Then again

 8     in January of 2002, and finally made a short witness statement in

 9     February of last year.

10             In respect of those interviews a statement --

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   In respect of those interviews and the statement if you were

13     asked the same questions again, would your answers be the same?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And was what you told the Prosecutor then the truth?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   I just want briefly with you to run through the aspects of the

18     evidence you gave in those interviews because I do not, except with a few

19     exceptions, want to go through them with you again.  You will, no doubt,

20     be happy to hear.

21             You dealt with the relationship between the Teslic Crisis Staff,

22     the Assembly, and the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

23     You dealt with what you knew of Radoslav Brdjanin and the SDS leadership,

24     with work obligation, the operation of the judicial system, the

25     relationship between military and civilian courts, the destruction of

Page 10479

 1     religious buildings, the role of the police.  You had quite a lot to say

 2     about the decision of the Municipal Assembly in Teslic that was passed --

 3     the meeting of the 6th of July, 1992.  You dealt with disarmament and the

 4     charges of armed rebellion.  You dealt with dismissal of non-Serbs, the

 5     departure of non-Serbs from Teslic, the attacks on Stenjak and Rankovici,

 6     and in detail, and I will cover some of that with you, the Mice.

 7             Is that right?

 8             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours, may I ask that the 92 ter

 9     package, the proper one as -- as displayed on our last exhibit list may

10     be made an exhibit.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I thought that Mr. Pantelic was rising to make an

12     objection.

13             Admitted and marked.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P1361.01 to P1361.12, Your Honours.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Now, Judge, can we -- I'm going to ask you to look at some

18     further documents that you had an opportunity to look at some time ago.

19     But first can we clarify this.  The Court has heard that on the 6th of

20     April 1992, the Teslic Assembly applied to become a part of the

21     Autonomous Region of Krajina.  In fact said it did.  Did the prosecutor's

22     office in Teslic then come under the Banja Luka authority or that -- or

23     did it remain with Doboj?

24        A.   The prosecutor's office remained with Doboj and functioned as

25     basic prosecutor office in Teslic under the jurisdiction of the higher

Page 10480

 1     office in Doboj.  The same applied to the police.

 2        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, can I ask you then next, please, to

 3     have a look at a document, which is tab 7 in your binder.

 4             MS. KORNER:  And it's 0085 -- 65 ter 850.

 5        Q.   Now, this is a decision of the Executive Committee of the Teslic

 6     municipality, which imposes a curfew, starting on the 5th of May, 1992,

 7     and it's imposed between 2300 and 0500 hours.

 8             Do you recall a curfew being enforced?

 9        A.   I think it was.  Although there was another situation when curfew

10     was imposed, but I think that was in the period of Mices.

11        Q.   The curfew, who enforced it?

12        A.   The decision was as I can see reached by the Executive Committee

13     but I think it was enforced by the police.  The police and I think it was

14     the department for National Defence at the time was in charge of handing

15     out passes for those people who were under work obligation or who had

16     some specific assignments.

17        Q.   All right.  I want to come onto your work obligation in a moment,

18     but if -- were people -- was anybody, sorry, "were people."

19             Was anyone given any kind of pass that would enable them to

20     ignore the curfew?

21        A.   I think that some people did have passes, but I couldn't say

22     exactly who.

23        Q.   All right.  Then I won't press --

24        A.   In this period --

25        Q.   Sorry.  I keep forgetting about that.

Page 10481

 1             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours could this document which I don't

 2     believe has been exhibited yet be admitted and marked.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1362, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Now, next, can we go, please, to document which has

 6     already been exhibited as P1353.06.

 7             Oh, tab 8.  I'm so sorry.  Tab 8.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   This is a record of a Crisis Staff meeting that took place on the

 9     6th of May, 1992.  Now, you said in interview Mr. -- Judge Peric, that

10     you had attended one Crisis Staff meeting, you thought in May, and it had

11     taken place in the basement of the municipal building.

12             Are you able to say whether this was the one you attended?  It

13     deals with, among other things, work obligation, and, we'll see, a couple

14     of other things.

15        A.   No.  It can't have been this meeting, because I believe it was on

16     the 25th of May that I assumed my position, and this was on the 6th of

17     May.

18             Now, the meeting that you mean may have taken place toward the

19     end of May.

20        Q.   All right.  In -- can I ask you about one -- two aspects.

21             The first is that 1.6 of this meeting under the agenda, is --

22     it's 1.6 which is on the first page, says:  "Introduce work obligation in

23     all businesses and institutions ..."

24             "And then all citizens are liable for work obligation if so

25     decided by the TO Staff Command."

Page 10482

 1             Now as far as that work obligation was concerned, was this a

 2     voluntary thing, or was it something that was effectively ordered?

 3        A.   I think it was an obligation.  Documents were issued by the TO

 4     Staff, so this was not a voluntary obligation.

 5        Q.   All right.  And, by and large, who was made to do work

 6     obligation?

 7        A.   Mostly people who worked in manufacturing processes or who worked

 8     for some institutions.  There must have been some criteria that were

 9     applied, but I cannot speak about the details.

10        Q.   All right.  Were -- was this work obligation, what sort of work

11     did it consist of?

12        A.   I suppose that the people had to do the work that they used to do

13     in companies or government bodies.

14        Q.   Yes.  Well, that --

15        A.   Or -- or they may have been assigned to do some other work.  It

16     is possible that they were assigned to some other jobs that they used not

17     to do.

18        Q.   Do you know if anybody was assigned to do jobs such as digging

19     trenches or the like, which might take them into the front line?

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In which period, if I may ask?  To

21     what time-period are you referring in your question?

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   Between April 1992 and the end of the year.

24        A.   More certainly there was this type of work obligation in that

25     period.  I was even able to see people in some collection centres, and I

Page 10483

 1     heard that they were to go off for some work obligation.  This work also

 2     involved going to the line but where and how, I don't know.

 3             However, this is only what I heard, so this is not first-hand

 4     information.  I saw at some locations that there were people -- people

 5     had been taken there and waiting for some sort of schedule.

 6        Q.   Right.  Now, you say you saw some people in some collection

 7     centres.  What sort of people?  In other words, what nationality were

 8     those people?

 9        A.   Those were citizens of Croat and Muslim ethnic affiliations.

10        Q.   And do you know -- could you name the collection centres that

11     you're talking about?

12        A.   One location was in the centre of town.  It's the handball pitch

13     of the Proletar Club, and another was at Banja Lisica about 3 kilometres

14     from Teslic where there are tennis grounds.

15        Q.   Next, could you turn to 1.8 of this meeting.  And I think that's

16     still on the same page.  Yes, it is.  It's at the bottom of the page in

17     B/C/S.

18             "All paramilitary formations and individuals illegally possessing

19     arms and ammunition are called upon to hand them over to the municipal TO

20     Staff or the nearest military unit immediately or by no later than 1500

21     hours on the 11th of May ..."

22             "After the expiry of this deadline, responsible organs will

23     search and confiscate arms and ammunition, applying the most rigorous

24     sanctions."

25             Now, you spoke about the disarmament process during the course

Page 10484

 1     of -- of your interview at the -- the second interview this is, at page

 2     54.  But I'd just like to ask you a few more questions about that.

 3             First, against whom was the call for disarmament applied?  Which

 4     sections of the population?

 5        A.   Well, Muslims and Croats.

 6        Q.   And the sort of arms that were being taken from them, did you, on

 7     occasion, see what sort of weapons they were?

 8        A.   No, I had no opportunity to see them.  I only heard stories on

 9     the occasion of the military police operation at the Rankovici village

10     that weapons were brought in on tractors.  But I didn't see that.

11        Q.   Now, as a prosecutor in Teslic, non-Serbs who were found with

12     arms, for what offence were they prosecuted?  Or what charges were

13     brought against them.

14        A.   I think that this criminal offence was called illegal possession

15     of weapons and explosive substances.  I don't remember the exact article

16     in the Criminal Code.  But this would have been the criminal offence in

17     question.

18        Q.   All right.  We're going to come onto some -- to your books and

19     the Code -- the offences in a moment.

20             But as far as you were concerned, what sort of evidence did the

21     police provide you with, in respect of these people who were arrested for

22     illegal possession of -- of arms?

23        A.   I think that those were certificates about the seizure of

24     weapons.  That was the only evidence that was enclosed with the criminal

25     report.

Page 10485

 1        Q.   Were you yourself aware of how some of the non-Serbs had acquired

 2     arms, which were not, say, for example, hunting rifles?

 3        A.   Well, no.  I can only suppose that there was substantial quantity

 4     of hunting weapons for which they had valid permits and that the police

 5     would seize those even from persons who had permits.

 6             I heard, however, that some military armaments were taken away

 7     from Croats and Muslims in that period and that there was a flourishing

 8     trade in these armaments; namely, that Serbs sold them to Muslims and

 9     Croats and that they came by their weapons in this manner, that is,

10     through illicit trade.  But this is only a story that I was able to hear.

11     I have no other source of information.

12        Q.   Where such -- as far as you understood it, and I accept that you

13     didn't have first-hand information, where such a sale will taken place,

14     would the police be aware of who had sold what weapons to whom?

15        A.   No.  I don't know.

16        Q.   All right.

17        A.   I cannot speak about that.  I allow for the possibility ...

18        Q.   All right.  Don't worry.  Thank you very much, judge.  We'll move

19     to a separate document.  Thank you.

20             Now, I want to ask you, please, a few questions about the

21     judicial system itself at this period of time.  That is, 1992.  Again,

22     you dealt with it in your interview, but I think it may help the Court if

23     we just cover a few of the salient points.

24             MS. KORNER:  Just a moment ...

25        Q.   Yes.  Now, in 1992, was --

Page 10486

 1             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, this is at page 16 of the first

 2     interview.

 3        Q.   -- was it the police who decided who would be prosecuted?  In

 4     other words, they were the first port of call for an investigation?

 5        A.   Yes.  One could say that they were the first link in the chain.

 6     But because under the law they were in charge of collecting evidence

 7     about criminal offences.  And it was the public prosecutor who launched

 8     the continuation of the process.  So the prosecutor could be seen as

 9     something of a go-between, between the police and the court, although the

10     prosecutor did have some powers to launch some investigations.

11             However, in practice, most times public prosecutors limited

12     themselves to processing the criminal reports received from the police.

13        Q.   All right.  So once the police had investigated, would they then

14     submit a criminal report to the prosecutor?

15        A.   Yes.  They were even authorised to impose detention for up to

16     three days.  It was so-called police detention before filing a criminal

17     report with the public prosecutor.

18        Q.   All right.  And was it then the prosecutor's decision whether,

19     based on the documents or the evidence produced, that there was

20     sufficient evidence to -- for the police to charge the person with a -- a

21     crime.

22        A.   Yes, exactly.  The prosecutor would consider the evidence

23     enclosed with the criminal report and then decide whether to refuse it or

24     launch an investigation.  In case of less serious offences, there was the

25     possibility of skipping the investigation stage and going directly to an

Page 10487

 1     indictment.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, can I come now to the -- the question of this

 3     known and unknown perpetrator.

 4             If the police sent up a file that said, "perpetrator unknown,"

 5     what further steps could the prosecutor take?

 6        A.   Well, there weren't many options.  Mostly it boiled down to an

 7     order to the police to continue collecting evidence and engage in

 8     activities necessary to identify the perpetrator.  Such cases were filed

 9     as criminal reports against unknown perpetrators, and we would wait for

10     information to come in about the perpetrator.  That information would

11     come from the police, of course.

12        Q.   Now, from your own experiences in Teslic in 1992 - and I'm

13     limiting the question to 1992 - what view did you form about the number

14     of unknown perpetrator cases that came to you as the prosecutor?

15        A.   I think that a smaller number of those was filed.  Most

16     perpetrators were not reported.  Here, I rely on a report that I made in

17     that period, in which I stated that many perpetrators remained

18     unidentified.  It was my suspicion that the police did not report all

19     perpetrators of crimes who were known, and that is why I demanded from

20     the police and other institutions that all cases be processed.

21             I based this upon what I was able to hear in the -- in that

22     period.  There was a large number of criminal offences for which it could

23     be supposed that the police did know the perpetrator was never reported.

24     Such as planting explosive devices, breaking and entering, theft of

25     automobiles, and other criminal offences.

Page 10488

 1             I believe I stated all that in my report --

 2        Q.   Yes --

 3        A.    -- and it was my position that this situation cannot be

 4     tolerated.  I insisted that the police do their work the way they are

 5     expected to.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Well, we're going to have a look at your report a little

 7     later because it came in September of 1992.

 8             So if the police gave you a file which had an unknown

 9     perpetrator, there was nothing further that you, the prosecutor, could do

10     other than presumably tell the police to carry on investigating?

11        A.   The prosecutor had absolutely no way of doing anything

12     independently from the police, and that was the problem with that system.

13     The police could simply say, Based on available information, we're unable

14     to identify the perpetrator.  And the prosecutor had no resources of his

15     own to conduct an independent investigation.

16        Q.   You've said that was the problem with the system then.  Has

17     the -- just so that we can see the contrast.  Has the system changed

18     since then?  Since 1992?

19        A.   The system changed after 2000 when the -- when the criminal

20     legislation was reformed.  Under the new system the public prosecutor

21     runs the investigation; he has just authority.

22        Q.   All right.  Yes, thank you.  All right.  That's all for the

23     moment I want to ask you about the general picture of the judicial

24     system.

25             We're going to look at some files and your log-books a little

Page 10489

 1     later.

 2             Can I ask you now, please, to deal, however, with the

 3     jurisdictional overlap, as it were, between -- sorry, between cases that

 4     came within the civilian courts and those that came within the military

 5     courts?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up on the screen - and it's your tab

 7     1, please - the Law on Military Courts, which is P1284.07.

 8             And could we go in that, please, to Article, please, 15 which is

 9     on the third -- third page in English, and, in B/C/S, it is the third

10     page as well.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Now, Article 15 deals with the respective jurisdictions of the

14     military court and civilian court.  And there we see, it says that:

15             "If a serviceman and a civilian exclusive of persons under

16     Article 13," which deals with the various crimes that are excluded, and

17     we've been through those with another witness, "had committed a crime as

18     accomplices, and if the trial of the civilian falls within the

19     jurisdiction of another regular court, this court will also try the

20     serviceman.

21             In your experience and your knowledge, where there was a mixed

22     group - for example, the Mice, which were mixed members of the civilian

23     police and the military, would the civilian court have jurisdiction?

24        A.   I think that in the relevant period, we had authority.  That is,

25     the regular jurisdiction -- or, rather, judiciary.  Because the military

Page 10490

 1     court did not function.  I cannot remember now when it was established

 2     and started functioning.  For a while, I believe they existed but they

 3     didn't have any judges except for the president.  I think his name was

 4     Mile Vignjevic as far as I remember.  But I cannot say when it started

 5     discharging its authority.

 6             In case of the Mice, if we were to adhere to the law strictly,

 7     the military court would have jurisdiction.  But that question never

 8     arose because -- probably because the military court was not functioning

 9     yet.

10        Q.   All right.  But as far as Article 15 is concerned, could -- from

11     your experience, could the civilian courts also try where there was a

12     crime that had been committed by both civilians and members of the

13     military, could the civilian courts try both?  That is to say, the

14     civilian and the military person.

15        A.   I believe so.  The question of jurisdiction could arise in the

16     course of the proceedings, but here it did not arise.  There were a large

17     number of civilian persons, that is, from the police, and the conclusion

18     was that this falls under the jurisdiction of the regular judiciary.

19        Q.   Right.  Now, as far as the question of war crimes is concerned,

20     and that's Article 13, which is on -- begins on the second page of the

21     English version of this, and I believe also in the B/C/S.  Yep.

22             Did the civilian courts have jurisdiction over war crimes which

23     were committed by civilians obviously with the exception of prisoners of

24     war, which is excluded specifically?

25        A.   I believe that military courts had the jurisdiction over war

Page 10491

 1     crimes.

 2        Q.   But is that all war crimes; or did the civilian courts have

 3     jurisdiction over war crimes when they were committed, as we see in

 4     Article 13, by civilians who didn't come within any of the -- as you call

 5     it -- I suppose -- yes, subsections of that Article?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

 7     witness is being shown something that may lead him to a wrong conclusion.

 8             In Article 13, war crimes are not mentioned.  So the witness

 9     should first be asked which crime -- criminal offences are dealt with in

10     Article 13 and only then ask him about war crimes specifically.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer your question

12     completely with full responsibility.  I wouldn't know which offences were

13     encompassed by Article 13, and I also don't know whether the war crimes

14     fall exclusively under the jurisdiction of military courts.  And based on

15     these basic provisions, I cannot conclude what the answer should be.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   All right.  Judge, I thought you had taken through this when you

18     were seen.  But if you haven't, rather than go through because the time

19     is limited that I have with you, all of the various sections that are

20     enumerated, we'll leave that.

21             Are you aware of any prosecutions against civilians who were

22     Serbs for any war crimes committed against the non-Serb population in

23     Teslic, other than the Mice Group, which we'll come onto.

24        A.   No, I don't know of such cases, and I don't think there were any.

25        Q.   All right.  That deals with that aspect.

Page 10492

 1             Now, can I move, please, to look at the Mice saga.

 2             You dealt with this again in your interview at some length, and

 3     it's the second interview from page 33 onwards.  But I want you to have a

 4     look at some of the documents that you weren't shown at the time of the

 5     interview.

 6             Can I just ask you this.  We -- we know that the Mice Group was

 7     arrested by Predrag Radulovic who came from Banja Luka together with a

 8     group of men in order to affect that arrest.

 9             Do you have any recollection now of whether or not you attended a

10     meeting in Banja Luka with Mr. Perisic, president of the municipality,

11     and others, about dealing with the Mice?

12        A.   Yes, I do remember attending such a meeting, together with the

13     president of the court, the president of the municipality, Mr. Perisic,

14     and I think Mr. Radulovic was also present at the meeting.

15        Q.   And can I just ask you this, because it's a question that's come

16     up before, do you know where the name "Mice" came from?

17        A.   I have heard stories, allegedly, that was the diminutive version

18     of Milan Ninkovic's name who was the leader in Doboj, and so Milan,

19     nickname Mica, and then hence Mices.  That's what I heard but I cannot

20     claim it as truth.  It does sound logical though.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let move straight, shall we, then, please, to

22     the file -- well, actually let's start with the -- oh, no documents.

23             MS. KORNER:  Could we have a look, please, at -- well, first of

24     all, at document 10361.

25             Your Honours, it's not obviously on our 65 ter list and I'm not

Page 10493

 1     going ask for it to be exhibited at this stage.  Sorry, tab 10.

 2        Q.   This is a report dated the 5th of June from someone called Milos.

 3     You'll see it on the back of it.

 4             And I just want to ask you about this.  It says in this report:

 5     "About 50 Muslims and Croats have been arrested in Teslic.  There is

 6     information that they were responsible for the organisation and creation

 7     of enemy military formations and the organisers of weapons procurement

 8     and distribution."

 9             From your own knowledge of what happened in Teslic, does that

10     refer to arrests by members of the Mice Group or to some other arrests?

11        A.   No, I think this must be about some other persons, not about

12     members of Mice.

13        Q.   All right.  So -- no.  Yeah, this 5th of June, do you know

14     whether, were the police or other authority --

15        A.   Yes, I believe that this may refer to the action in the village

16     of Stenjak.

17        Q.   All right.  Okay.  Well, I'll come back to it, because, as I say,

18     I want to deal with Stenjak separately.

19             All right.  Next, can we move, please, then, to the next document

20     which is at your tab 11, and it's P702.  It is already exhibited.

21             Now, this is a military report of the 1st of July, but I want to

22     ask you about a couple of things in it, if you can assist us.

23             At page 3 in English, and, in B/C/S, it is the second page,

24     there's a paragraph that says:

25             "A special unit for combatting DTG," which appears to be sabotage

Page 10494

 1     groups, "and securing vital buildings of some 60 men was formed as part

 2     of a CJB in February 1992.  As a large number of the delinquents became a

 3     part of the unit immediately after its formation, there were reactions

 4     from the locals in Teslic regarding the inappropriate behaviour of its

 5     members."

 6             Now, do you know anything about that, about this special unit?

 7        A.   I think there were people who were in charge of securing

 8     communications, bridges, and some facilities.  I assume this refers to

 9     the people like that who also conducted searches at check-points on

10     communications route -- communications.  I know for a fact there were

11     check-points on roads --

12        Q.   Right --

13        A.    -- held or manned by armed people, and I assume that this refers

14     to the people like that.

15        Q.   All right.  And it says:  "A large number of delinquents and so

16     there were reactions from locals in Teslic."

17             Do you recall that people reacted badly to delinquents being part

18     of this group?

19        A.   No, no, I really don't have any recollection on that.  But I

20     would allow for the possibility that there were a large number of people

21     there who did have a criminal record of some sort.

22        Q.   And final question on this then is, do you know under whose

23     authority this special unit came, who were securing communications,

24     bridges, and the like?

25        A.   I don't think that they arrived Teslic.  I think they were

Page 10495

 1     established in Teslic, but I don't know who they were established by, in

 2     what way, at what time, how many men did they have among their ranks.

 3        Q.   All right.  And then it goes on to deal with the Mice, the

 4     military aspect of the Mice, in the paragraph after that that

 5     Captain First-Class Ljubisa Petricevic, former head of the Doboj military

 6     section, was sent from Doboj to Teslic at the end of May 1992 ... brought

 7     military police with him.

 8             And Petricevic and this group carried out a successful

 9     mobilisation in several days.

10             Was mobilisation part of what this group were doing, from what

11     you could see?

12        A.   I wouldn't know, I didn't have information to that effect, namely

13     that they've come there for the purpose of mobilisation.  What was

14     obvious was the other part, the other side of the coin, the criminal

15     element.  I do not know of any mobilisation.

16        Q.   Thank you, that's all I ask about that document.

17             And now can we look, please, at the whole of the Mice file.  You

18     will find it at your tab 14, please.

19             MS. KORNER:  I'm not going to go through the whole of it, but

20     we'll just go through some of it.  Oh, sorry, it's Exhibit 65 ter 2485.

21        Q.   You've had a chance to look through this, Judge Peric, before.

22     Can you confirm that this is the file on the Mice Group?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours, may I ask that this now be

25     admitted and marked.

Page 10496

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1363, Your Honours.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   Now, it contains a number of documents, the majority of which, I

 6     think, are statements taken from the persons, some of the persons who

 7     were arrested, and also statements from potential witnesses.

 8             Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   And some of them - is this right?  - are -- some of the

11     statements, not all of them are there, but some of the statements taken

12     were from victims of this Group's crimes?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And others who were in a position to know them.

15             Now, I want to look, please, just at the statement of one of the

16     people who was actually arrested, and that's Mr. Tekic.  You will find

17     that in, I think, page 17 of the file.  I hope.  Oh, it's all going one

18     towards -- but quite difficult.  It's 17 pages in and it's page 24 in the

19     English and 17 of B/C/S.

20             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry.  I'll give you the ERN number at the top,

21     that's the easiest.  It's -- if you look at the top, the numbers, it's

22     0211-7022.  Yep.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slobodan.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We couldn't hear the

25     surname.

Page 10497

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   Could you just repeat the surname for the interpreter, Judge?

 3        A.   Slobodan Tekic.

 4        Q.   And is this a statement made to an authorised official of the

 5     Banja Luka CSB, and it says regarding his stay in Teslic.  And he says:

 6             "I'm not a member of any military formation.  I arrived Teslic at

 7     the beginning of July of this year as a member of the group sent by the

 8     Doboj CSB, or more precisely, by Chief Bjelosevic and his deputy, Savic,

 9     in order to restore order and discipline in the police and town."

10             Now, from your inquiries into this case, Judge Peric, the

11     statement that he was sent by Andrija Bjelosevic and his deputy,

12     Milan Savic is that something that was confirmed by other evidence?

13        A.   I do not think so.  As far as I can recall, they all had official

14     police IDs and in the final analysis it would be strange to have

15     Andrija Bjelosevic to be sending civilians together with the police to

16     Teslic.

17        Q.   All right.  Again, from your investigations into this matter,

18     what role did you conclude had been played by Bjelosevic and Milan Savic,

19     his deputy?

20        A.   According to what we have determined in the course of the

21     investigation, they were the ones who had organised the group, who sent

22     them to Teslic, and gave them authorisation.  I think all of them had

23     official IDs, military uniforms, weapons.  I don't think there was one

24     single exception to this.  There were even people in that group, among

25     them a man I knew from before the war, who was a police -- who had been a

Page 10498

 1     police inspector in Brod before that, but there were also people who were

 2     criminals who had had criminal records.  I knew one of them as well, so I

 3     was astonished to see that they were part of the police group.  They were

 4     certainly organised by Andrija Bjelosevic and Savic.  We determined that

 5     during the investigation.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, I'm a little bit puzzled.  Is this

 7     answer not directly in contradiction with the previous one and, if so,

 8     could you clarify with the witness.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I think it may be the way I asked the question

10     originally that wasn't ...

11             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise.  I think in -- it's page 27, line

12     17, starting with Ms. Korner, I think it should be deleted -- not deleted

13     but to make another line but there is no mention that Judge Delvoie posed

14     that question in line 17, yes.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Sorry.  Your Honours' intervention hasn't been

16     recorded at all in the transcript.  It may be because he was still

17     speaking and I over-spoke or you over-spoke.  It's quite difficult with

18     the video.

19        Q.   Judge, can I just ask you this:  My original question when we

20     were reading the statement of this chap, Tekic, was to you, did you

21     conclude that what he -- I have to look at my own question, I suppose.

22             I asked you whether the statement made by Tekic, that he been

23     sent by Andrija Bjelosevic and his deputy Milan Savic, is something that

24     was confirmed by other evidence.  And you said I don't think so.  As far

25     as can I recall they all had official police IDs, and in the final

Page 10499

 1     analysis it would be strange to have Andrija Bjelosevic to be sending

 2     civilians together with the police.

 3             And then you said later in answer the question I then asked you,

 4     what role did you conclude had been played by Bjelosevic and Savic, was

 5     that they effectively had organised all of this and sent the Mice.  And

 6     there is an apparent contradiction between those two answers.  Could you

 7     just explain?  As I say, it may be the way I asked the question.

 8        A.   I do not see any contradiction.  This man was a member of a

 9     police formation that was organised, that was set up by this Bjelosevic.

10     Both of my answers point to that.

11             So Tekic was part of a formation.  Here it's stated military but

12     it was a police formation.  He arrived armed, together with this group,

13     with police ID.  He told us that he had been sent by Bjelosevic and

14     Milan Savic.  So they couldn't have been sent to Teslic without having

15     received an assignment, a police assignment.

16        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Your original answer meant -- it was

17     dealing with the fact that this civilian should not have had -- if he was

18     a civilian and not a member of the police, should not have had a police

19     identification card supplied by Bjelosevic.

20        A.   That was my conclusion; namely, that he couldn't have been a

21     civilian, that he must have been a member of reserve of police forces,

22     who was mobilized back into the police, armed, and sent to Teslic.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   I had never come across a situation where police would issue

25     weapons, IDs, uniforms without that person being either part of the

Page 10500

 1     reserve police or someone with an assignment.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, if you're about to move on, it is time

 4     for the break.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I am, yes -- well, I'm still on the same topic,

 6     but ...

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Judge Peric, we are at the point where we would take

 8     our first break.  The Court will rise now, and we will resume in 20

 9     minutes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  If we could go into closed session before the -- we

15     resume the testimony of the witness.  Private session, I'm sorry.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10501

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   Judge, sorry about that small digression?

24             MS. KORNER:  I think we're back in open session.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

Page 10502

 1             MS. KORNER:  I just want to continue on the theme for a moment on

 2     the responsibility for bringing the Mice to Teslic.

 3        Q.   In 1999, after the discovery of the bodies of victims of the

 4     Mice's activities, I think there was flurry of publicity and articles in

 5     a number of different newspapers within Bosnia and the Republika Srpska.

 6     In one of them you gave an interview, and that was to "Nezavisne Novine";

 7     is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And in the course of that interview, and I want to ask you about

10     this part of it.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm not seeking to put the interview

12     in, but it's at tab 56 of Your Honours' bundles or whatever, and for the

13     Defence.

14        Q.   You said this:  "When I told Municipal President Nikola Perisic

15     that he would pay for these crimes sooner or later, he just smiled

16     naively believing that no one would be responsible."

17             First, did you -- did you say that to the newspaper?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   From your investigations, what role did you conclude that

20     President -- municipal President Perisic had played in -- in this

21     scenario of the Mice coming to Teslic?

22        A.   My conclusion was that his role was crucial, both in bringing

23     them over, as well, I believe, in what they did in Teslic.

24        Q.   And in what way "crucial"?

25        A.   Well, he was the president of the municipality.  He was in charge

Page 10503

 1     of the Crisis Staff, at its head.  He was the one who influenced and had

 2     the crucial role in adopting the decisions by -- by the Crisis Staff.

 3        Q.   Yes.  And how -- how did -- sorry.  How did that impact on --

 4     on -- on the bringing to Teslic of the Mice?

 5        A.   The decision to bring them was adopted by the Crisis Staff.

 6     Based on that decision, two people went to Doboj to arrange their

 7     arrival.  They spoke to Andrija Bjelosevic and Ljubisa Petricevic.  We

 8     found that out during the investigation.  I believed that

 9     Vid Stojanovic [phoen], too, who took part in those talks was interviewed

10     during the investigation, so I believe it was him who spoke about that.

11     It was my conclusion that Nikola Perisic had the -- played the key,

12     crucial role.  He was the kind of man who wanted to have the main say in

13     all things military and civilian, and, hence, his arguments and strife

14     with many people.  There was him on one side and on the other side were

15     the military structures of both Doboj and Teslic and so on.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, in this file of the Mice it contains Official

17     Notes made by the head of the police in the SJB in Teslic,

18     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, may I just --

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes, of course.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  A small question.  The witness said two people

22     went to Doboj to ask for assistance and to ask the Mice Group to come in.

23     Who were those two people.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Judge, did you hear the question?  Who were the two people who

Page 10504

 1     went to Doboj?

 2        A.   One was Bosko Misic, a people's deputy, and the other was the

 3     chief of All People's Defence, his name was Vid Stojanovic.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   To return to what I was asking you, this file contains statements

 7     made by the chief of the SJB in Teslic, Mr. Kuzmanovic.  And also by the

 8     commander, Mr. Markovic.  From your investigations, what did you conclude

 9     about the police's attitude in Teslic, those who were already there, the

10     SJB heads, in respect of the Mice?

11        A.   What we were able to conclude was that -- that they had accepted

12     the Mice and surrendered all police authority to them.  They really had

13     no influence over that group.  I would dare to call that the suspension

14     of authority of the local police.

15        Q.   All right.  At that stage, when the -- sorry.  Go on.

16        A.   I think that they only serviced certain people with information

17     about some operations they planned and so on.

18             So they were not completely marginalised.  They had a certain

19     role, they met them daily, there was communication and contact, but

20     during that period, I believe that it was the Mice who were the sole

21     decision-makers.

22        Q.   At that stage, when the Mice came in at the beginning of

23     June 1992, roughly how many active and reserve police officers were there

24     in Teslic?

25        A.   I think there were about 200 to 300 of them.  I don't know a

Page 10505

 1     precise figure, but certainly more than 200.

 2        Q.   All right.  Mr. Kuzmanovic and Mr. Markovic, when Predrag

 3     Radulovic came in, what happened to them?

 4        A.   After that operation, they were removed from their positions.  I

 5     believe that they were discharged from the police.  Possibly they were

 6     employed by the Doboj police.  I don't remember anymore.

 7             Temporarily people from Banja Luka had taken over the positions

 8     of chief and commander of police, and the chief of the crime

 9     investigation department.  After that, another man was appointed chief of

10     police.  I believe his name was Jokic.

11        Q.   Do you know -- because the Court has seen documents complaining

12     about them -- the -- Mr. Markovic and Mr. Kuzmanovic being reinstated.

13     Do you know if they were reinstated at any stage; in other words, went

14     back to the SJB in Teslic?

15        A.   I think that they returned to the police structures, and I know

16     that there was a problem with that at the political level.

17        Q.   And what sort of problem was that?

18        A.   There was no agreement about their return.  In the military

19     structures, and I believe in political circles, there was opposition

20     because they were not in the same political party.  Markovic was a

21     radical whereas Perisic was a member of the SDS, and there was some sort

22     of conflict that arose over that, between them.  Perisic did not agree

23     with their return, which was imposed.

24        Q.   Yes.  And, again, from your investigations, you've talked about

25     effectively military police and political cooperation on this.  What was

Page 10506

 1     the purpose of this whole operation, of bringing in the Mice into Teslic?

 2        A.   I can only assume what it was about.  I didn't see any real need

 3     for people to come in from outside for purposes of mobilisation as it had

 4     been put in their statements.  They said that they been called in to

 5     assist in the mobilisation process.  I wasn't aware of any problems

 6     related to that.

 7             So my conclusion was that they had come to create an atmosphere

 8     of fear and, thus, exert pressure to bring about voluntary departures and

 9     removal.  That may not have been the original objective but to my mind,

10     this was exactly their role.  For some 20 day, their activity was

11     tolerated until Nikola Perisic risked being arrested himself.  There was

12     even talk about killing him.  So I believe that what ensued was a

13     consequence of that conflict.

14        Q.   And it may -- obviously it may be obvious, but who was it that

15     they were trying to bring about the voluntary departure of?  What

16     sections of the population.

17        A.   The Bosniaks and Croats.  Finally, two operations of the

18     so-called cleansing of those villages were a implementation of that idea.

19        Q.   All right.  Can we just finish the -- with the -- the topic of

20     the Mice.  I mean, the Court has heard a fair amount about it.

21             Can we look next please at --

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, there is just one little problem or

23     question that I would wish to kick in, namely, in relation to the

24     witness's explanation that the reinstatement of Markovic and the other

25     guy was imposed.

Page 10507

 1             And my question would be imposed by whom.  It's in page 35, line

 2     25 in the transcript on the screen.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 4        Q.   Judge, did you hear the question from Judge Harhoff.  You said

 5     that the reinstatement of Markovic and, Kuzmanovic, I think it is, was

 6     imposed.  And the question is:  By whom?

 7        A.   I think it was the police structures and military structures from

 8     Doboj who imposed that.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, I have a small question to, if you

10     want, as we are leaving the topic of the Mice now --

11             MS. KORNER:  We're not, Your Honour.  I'm going through some of

12     the things that happened, but certainly.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, that's okay.  Then I'll wait.

14             MS. KORNER:  Well, if you like, why don't you ask now?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, the witness said - and this is, if I'm not

16     wrong, not in his prior statement - that he was at a meeting in

17     Banja Luka when Perisic and someone else came to ask to do something

18     about the Mice Group.

19             My question is:  How did it came about that he was there; and

20     what was discussed there?  What was ... what was the purpose -- the

21     purpose and the content of the meeting.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honour is quite right.  I skipped rather

23     over that.

24        Q.   Judge, you told us you do now remember, you had been asked about

25     this before, and you said you couldn't remember, but you now recall going

Page 10508

 1     to a meeting in Banja Luka together with Perisic and, I think, the judge

 2     at the Teslic court; is that right?

 3        A.   Perisic was there.

 4        Q.   And was the judge of the Teslic court also with you, whose name -

 5     I apologise - I --

 6        A.   Yes, the president of the court also came with me.  I think that

 7     Predrag Radulovic insisted that we go to tell Mr. Zupljanin about the

 8     situation.  That was our only role to confirm what Radulovic, I suppose,

 9     had earlier informed Mr. Zupljanin about as a problem.  And as far as I

10     remember, the conversation was only about that.

11        Q.   Who suggested the meeting, that you go?  Mr. Radulovic?

12        A.   I think it was Mr. Radulovic.  I cannot be certain, but I think

13     that he invited us.  We took some small roads for safety reasons --

14        Q.   All right.

15        A.    -- my conclusion was that it was his idea and his plan, that he

16     was the organiser.

17        Q.   And did you -- at the meeting, when you -- did you -- did you

18     speak to Stojan Zupljanin?

19        A.   I don't remember the details of the conversation.  There was

20     several people.  I'm not sure who presented the situation or what I said.

21     I don't remember that.  I remember that there were people from the corps,

22     the military.  Then people from military security.  There was the

23     President of the Banja Luka court and the prosecutor from the Banja Luka

24     prosecutor's office.  So several people were present.

25        Q.   All right.  Did you know a Colonel Stevilovic from the 1st

Page 10509

 1     Krajina Corps, the intelligence officer?

 2        A.   I think that he attended the meeting.

 3        Q.   And what about a gentleman named Nedeljko Kesic, head of the SNB

 4     in Banja Luka.  Was he there?

 5        A.   Nedeljko Kesic, yes, I believe that he was there.  I'm almost

 6     certain that he was.

 7        Q.   I agree, I can see that it's not something that you remember that

 8     clearly.  But can you remember how matters were left at the end of the

 9     meeting; in other words, was anything said to you by Mr. Zupljanin that

10     he would help, or wouldn't help, or what would happen?

11        A.   I'm not sure that any decision was communicated to us then.  I

12     suppose that the decision was taken after the meeting.  I cannot confirm

13     that though.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  That's all I want to ask.

15             All right.  Can we just move through quickly the documents that

16     show what happened in this case.

17             Could you have a look, please, at your tab 15.

18             MS. KORNER:  And that's P837.

19        Q.   Is that the report to the investigating judge in Teslic, which

20     was -- went out under Mr. Radulovic's name?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   And was that -- is that the sort of standard report that would

23     come from the police when they had made arrests for crimes?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   It is a very bad copy and we'll see the names more clearly later

Page 10510

 1     on, but at no stage does it appear that Milan Savic was ever arrested; is

 2     that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  Really, he wasn't covered by this criminal report, and he

 4     was not apprehended.

 5             I checked that in the meantime.  I mistakenly believed that he

 6     was in hospital because one of the Mice was so badly beaten up that he

 7     was in hospital rather than in detention.  But it was for Dobrivoje

 8     Culibrk, but Milan Savic wasn't affected by this operation and he was not

 9     apprehended.

10        Q.   And do you know why that was?  Did you ever make inquiries as to

11     why Milan Savic, who everybody said was in charge of all of this, or part

12     of it, was never arrested or interviewed?

13        A.   I cannot explain that.  Predrag Radulovic probably knows that.

14     Both were state security men.  I suppose that it has to do with their

15     relations.  Ljubisa Petricevic wasn't arrested either, although he was

16     also involved.  Allegedly, however, the military police apprehended him

17     and took him to Banja Luka and I don't know what happened later, but he

18     wasn't covered by this criminal report either.  The two of them were

19     omitted by the police.

20        Q.   We'll see in a moment the documents from the military and police

21     side requesting the release of various people.

22             From what your experience of what happened then and what was

23     happening, could the military and police structures have had any bearing

24     on the fact that the two leaders weren't arrested?  Any influence, I

25     should say, really.

Page 10511

 1        A.   I think that's possible.

 2        Q.   All right.  All right.  Thank you.  That's all.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can we then look, please, at document, next tab for

 4     you, 168, P703 for us.

 5        Q.   Yes.  This is a --

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise, Ms. Korner.  It's just a

 7     correction to the transcript.  Page 39, line 16, instead of "alleged him"

 8     should be "arrested him."

 9             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

10        Q.   This is -- it starts off.  It's a report, again, from

11     Mr. Radulovic, who is at this time is temporary chief of Teslic SJB, and

12     he says about 40 Muslims and Croats have been massacred in the Teslic

13     municipality by a group of criminals from Doboj.  And then he goes on to

14     say that there was damage, rape, amongst girls and women of all

15     nationalities, which has caused fear among the citizens.

16             First of all, is that right, that effectively it wasn't just

17     non-Serbs who were frightened, it was also Serbs, by the activities of

18     this group?

19        A.   That is correct.  A very significant number of Serbs was affected

20     by their activities of robbery, stealing cars, and the like.  There were

21     even allegations of rape, although I never got any hard evidence about --

22     about that.

23        Q.   All right.  And he is asking, it says on the basis of an

24     agreement with political bodies in Teslic, representatives of the army,

25     the president, and the lower court - this is the third paragraph - and

Page 10512

 1     the public prosecutor, it was decided that an exhumation be conducted of

 2     the 40 people who had been killed.  And -- he asked for a forensic team.

 3             Now, was any kind of an exhumation conducted then?

 4        A.   I made a proposal to the investigating judge to conduct an

 5     exhumation and he decided in favour.

 6        Q.   But did he --

 7        A.   The cost of the exhumation should be covered from the budget.

 8     But there the problem arose.  The minister of justice, I believe, told

 9     the President of the court that the government had no Monday for that and

10     that it must wait; that for the government this was financial problem.

11             Radulovic, however, exaggerates here there.  There has never

12     been -- there had never been talks with the politicians about the

13     exhumation.  That was an exclusively -- that was under the exclusive

14     jurisdiction of the court, and we never spoke to politicians about that.

15        Q.   And the minister of justice in July, was that Momcilo Mandic?

16        A.   I cannot confirm that, whether it was Momcilo Mandic or -- or

17     whether it was Ostojic.  The president of the court would know that

18     better.  I got the information from him.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I don't think we need -- we've got a

20     criminal report but you've seen that.  Because of time, that's the

21     next -- then there's a further request from -- I think -- we can skip

22     that one, actually.

23             Yes, can we look, please, at document at your tab 20, P1312,

24     please, just for a moment.

25             This is the decision of the investigating judge, Mr. Kovacevic,

Page 10513

 1     who -- the person you mentioned went to this meeting in Banja Luka,

 2     saying that the investigation should be carried out.

 3             Is that an order to the -- to you or to the police, or to both of

 4     you?

 5        A.   It's a decision of the investigating judge to accept the

 6     prosecutor's application and provided the evidence applied for.  So this

 7     is merely the decision to launch an investigation and an acceptance of

 8     the prosecutor's application.  It refers exclusively to what the

 9     prosecutor had applied for.

10        Q.   All right.  And now can we look, please, at another report, which

11     is at your tab 21, and it's 2837.

12             You told -- this is a report by Milos, which I don't imagine you

13     saw before you were asked to look through various documents.  But in the

14     first paragraph, he's talking about the overall trend in the broader area

15     of Doboj.  Two currents in the SDS party:  One is more moderate and has a

16     relatively realistic human and rational stand on the issue of the

17     resolution of issues of ethnic groups living in areas where the Serbs are

18     a majority; the second current, which has currently been able to impose

19     itself more in certain areas, is developing the idea of an ethnically

20     cleansed environment, republic of -- ethnically cleansed Republic Bosnia

21     and Herzegovina and is acting in keeping with this by not hesitating to

22     resort to whatever means to attain this goal.

23             And then it goes on to say that the killing of civilians in

24     Doboj, Teslic, and Kozarac are not in favour of Serbian dignity and the

25     honour of the Serbian army and so on.

Page 10514

 1             Does this report, as it were, go with what you have just told the

 2     Court about the reason that the Mice came into Teslic, that what was

 3     proposed here or what is stated here is that there was a strain of the

 4     SDS that wanted an ethnically cleansed Serbian republic?

 5        A.   I don't know whether we can speak about two strains within the

 6     SDS, but there certainly were extremist individuals in the SDS and there

 7     were some in Teslic.  One of them was Sava Knezevic, a public deputy and

 8     an Orthodox priest.  So these extreme trends were not at all alien to us;

 9     they were not abstract.  But on the whole, within the party, I don't

10     think that there were two groups that significantly differed in their

11     political attitudes.

12        Q.   Right.  So over all, this say there are two groups, one that

13     wants to ethnically cleanse, one that is more moderate on the issue of

14     ethnic groups other than Serbs living in -- in these areas.  How, from

15     your experience, would you have put the overall aim of the SDS in Teslic?

16        A.   I think that the policy of the SDS essentially boiled down to

17     ethnic cleansing and that the extreme current, to call it that

18     conditionally, was able to assert itself in the SDS.  And it was finally

19     implemented, and that was the result of this policy during the war.

20        Q.   And is that -- are you now talking about just Teslic or overall?

21        A.   I'm talking about Teslic because I'm familiar with the situation

22     there.

23        Q.   Yes, thank you.  All right.

24             Now can we move, please -- well, let's just ... sorry.  I just

25     want to check ...

Page 10515

 1             Yes.  Can you just look, please, for a moment at document 10362,

 2     your tab 22.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Again, Your Honours, I'm not seeking to make this an

 4     exhibit because it is not on our 65 ter.

 5        Q.   But I think you have had a chance to look at it.  It's a long

 6     description from the military point of view, 1st Krajina Corps

 7     effectively, of the -- the Mice and the Teslic [sic].

 8             Can you turn to the -- yes, it's the second page in B/C/S and

 9     it's the third page in English.  There's -- is it up?  No, third page?

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MS. KORNER:  Yep.

12        Q.   It says in the third para:

13             "Aside from the same individuals," that's Petricevic and the

14     others, "committed several threats, blackmail, robberies, and rapes and

15     up until now it has been confirmed that it's been around 80.500

16     Deutschemarks, et cetera, as well larger amounts of gold and luxurious

17     cars were taken from certain persons and citizens of Teslic.

18             Those are fairly high figures.  From your investigations, are

19     those figures reasonably accurate?

20        A.   I believe that the figures were mentioned in the course ...

21        Q.   All right.  And then it says in the next paragraph:  "On the 1st

22     of July, information about the situation in the area of Teslic

23     municipality was put together which was then sent by General Talic to

24     Mr. Karadzic with specific suggestions on measures to be taken."

25             Now, were you aware that a report went all the way up to

Page 10516

 1     Mr. Karadzic, apparently, on this matter?

 2        A.   No, I was not aware.  But I assumed that Karadzic did have such

 3     information from several sources.  I am sure that Karadzic must have

 4     known about the events, but I did not know about this document.

 5        Q.   And why do you say you're sure that Mr. Karadzic must have known

 6     about these events?

 7        A.   Because he had his deputies, people's deputies, who were also

 8     members of the Main Board of the SDS.  He was at the head of the

 9     Main Board.  I think they were exchanging such information.  I simply

10     believed it couldn't have remained a secret.

11        Q.   Yes, thank you.  That's all I want to ask you about that

12     document.

13             Could you look now, please, at -- it's already an Exhibit.  No --

14     yes, can we look at the two requests for release, please, first one at

15     your tab 25, 3571 -- 65 ter 3571.

16             The -- this is to the -- from the Operations Group Command at

17     Doboj to Teslic investigating judge, asking for the release, immediate

18     release so they can take part in combat operations.  And all of those

19     men, I think, if -- the document we looked at, the report, Mr. Sljuka was

20     number 9, Mr. Sljivic number 8, Gavranovic number 13, Kezunovic is number

21     14, Momic 12, Slavuljica, whatever, they are all on the list anyhow.

22             Did you see this request at the time?

23        A.   Yes, I did.  The investigative judge did show me the request,

24     because, at the time, we had some other information -- or, rather,

25     threats from Doboj, lawyers from Doboj who were representing some of the

Page 10517

 1     persons mentioned here openly told us that we are living dangerously,

 2     that Teslic will be bombarded from Ozren mountain, so that because of the

 3     verbal threats we paid more attention to this very document as well.

 4        Q.   All right.  Had had happened before, that there had been a

 5     request from military officials, senior military officers for the release

 6     of people who had been lawfully arrested for criminal offences?

 7        A.   We haven't had cases of pressure excerpted by the army in other

 8     cases.  There was one case when the president of the municipality,

 9     Mr. Perisic, asked a group of people from a village to ask us to release

10     one of the people from the village, but never from the army.

11        Q.   Yes.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that please be admitted and

13     marked.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1364, Your Honours.

16             MS. KORNER:  And then if we look, please, at your document 27,

17     tab 27, it's already exhibited, 1342 -- P1342, sorry, not the 65 ter.

18        Q.   Same kind of request by Mr. Bjelosevic.  Again, was this

19     something that the investigating -- in fact, I think dated exactly the

20     same day, yes, both of them dated the 17th of July.

21             Again, did Mr. President Kovacevic show you this document at the

22     time?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I -- I am aware of this document as well.

24        Q.   Had you requests from senior officers, police officers before, to

25     have members of the police who had been -- or alleged police who had been

Page 10518

 1     lawfully arrested, released?

 2        A.   No.  We never had that kind of pressure exerted by the police.

 3        Q.   Yes.  All right.  And just hopefully to go through this a bit

 4     more quickly now.

 5             I think that, if we look, please, at P1314, Exhibit P1314.

 6             And it's the next tab for you, Judge, at tab 28.

 7             This is the President of the Doboj High Court, Mr. Neskovic, who

 8     is saying that the individuals who had been sent to Banja Luka prison, I

 9     think, should be transferred to Doboj; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Why had they originally been sent to Banja Luka prison?

12        A.   Because in our assessment, their stay in Doboj could have

13     obstructed the investigation.

14        Q.   All right.

15        A.   Bearing in mind how these people arrived.  And, therefore, it was

16     arranged with the warden of the Banja Luka prison for them to be

17     accommodated in Banja Luka, although the Banja Luka prison, according to

18     the prison system, people from Teslic shouldn't have been sent to

19     Banja Luka, but I think it was the investigative judge who held talks in

20     relation to this issue and, eventually, these people were accommodated in

21     the District Prison in Banja Luka.

22        Q.   And as a result of this order by Mr. -- by Judge Neskovic were

23     they, in fact, transferred to Doboj?

24        A.   Yes.  Pursuant to this fax, they were transferred to Doboj.  We

25     found out about their transfer from the media or maybe someone informed

Page 10519

 1     us about it.  And then, at least I believe we went to the president of

 2     the high court in Banja Luka who told us that he knows nothing about that

 3     and later on told us that, after having asked a prison warden in

 4     Banja Luka, that they were actually released on the basis of this fax.

 5             So it was even without the knowledge of the President of the High

 6     Court which was the supervisory organ that these people were transferred

 7     to Doboj.  That's the information we received.

 8             But this fax was addressed, as we can see here, to the president

 9     of the high court in Banja Luka which leads me to believe that he must

10     have known about the request and approved of it, at least verbally, if

11     not in writing.

12        Q.   And then I think it's right, we can deal with that quite quickly,

13     that they were, in fact, released by Judge Neskovic; is that right?  He

14     ordered their release?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And if we look very quickly at the next document because it's s

17     already an exhibit.  That's P1353.09, your tab 30.

18             As you say, this received a great deal of publicity or --

19     probably it's because there's a long article in "Glas" headed:  "The

20     notorious Mice are free."

21             Now, I said there was a great deal.  Was there, in fact,

22     publicity not only in "Glas" but in other newspapers about the release of

23     these men?

24        A.   I don't know whether other media covered it as well, because, at

25     the time, I think "Glas" was the only local media that reached Teslic.  I

Page 10520

 1     haven't noticed any publicity elsewhere.

 2        Q.   All right.  As a matter of interest, can I just ask you, did you

 3     know anything about "Glas"?  In other words, its relationship to the SDS

 4     and the -- and the government of the Serbian Republic?

 5             If you didn't, say so.

 6        A.   I believe they were -- these were all newspapers of the SDS.

 7     There were no independent newspapers until after the war.  Media were

 8     controlled by the SDS; let me put it like that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  When we look at your log-book, the Teslic

10     log-book, we'll just look at the Mice then.  But that's the end of, I

11     think, all that I want to ask you about -- let me just check, if I may,

12     on my note.

13             Well, yes, I think when you saw the investigator and the lawyer

14     in Banja Luka you had a look -- you looked at the Doboj register for the

15     prison, is that right, and you were able to identify the names of the

16     people in -- in the Doboj prison.

17             Do you remember that?  When you were seen a few weeks ago.

18        A.   I didn't understand your question.

19        Q.   All right.  I think it's self-evident.  So don't worry, Judge.

20     It's my fault.

21             Now, can I just deal before we look at the log-books with a

22     couple of other matters.

23             You've mentioned now and again the attacks on the -- or the

24     disarming operations, perhaps that's a better way of putting it, on the

25     villages of Stenjak and Rankovici, and you talked about that in your

Page 10521

 1     interview at pages 71 and following.  I want to show you a couple of

 2     documents in relation to those.

 3             Is that right -- you told us -- you told the OTP in your

 4     interviews that these disarmament operations took place shortly after the

 5     Mice arrived, around the 8th of June; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  I think the first operation was Stenjak; and then, on the

 7     8th of June, Rankovici, if my memory serves me well.

 8        Q.   And the population of those villages, what was that -- what

 9     nationality were they?

10        A.   Bosniaks, or Muslim.

11        Q.   Do you -- yes.  Can I ask you to look, please, at a record of an

12     exhumation that was done a great deal later, in 1999, which is, please,

13     at your tab 41.  And it's document 65 ter 2517.  And in English, can we

14     go to the seventh page; and in the -- in the B/C/S version -- just a

15     moment.  I'm sorry, I forgot to mark that.

16             It will be at the bottom of -- it starts at the bottom of page 3,

17     paragraph 2 or whatever.

18             It's up.  Thank you.

19             It says:

20             "The first grave which we began the planned exhumation work in

21     the Bosniak cemetery of Stenjak," and it describes where it is.

22             "According to preliminary information, staging an attack by the

23     Bosniaks, the Teslic Serbs in fact attacked the Bosniaks in the village

24     of Stenjak between the 3 and 10 June 1992" --

25             Sorry, we need to go to the next page, I think, of this in -- in

Page 10522

 1     B/C/S.

 2             And "killed about 17 unarmed Bosniak civilians whose bodies were

 3     collected in the village much later ..."

 4             And then, [indiscernible].  Did -- from your understanding at the

 5     time, were unarmed people killed during the operation at Stenjak?

 6        A.   I really don't know.  I cannot give any comment on that, because

 7     I don't know what the outcome of the operations were in relation to

 8     civilians, whether they were armed or unarmed people.  I have no

 9     first-hand information.  I don't even know about them.  I've never heard

10     about this mass grave in Stenjak.

11        Q.   All right.  Can I ask you this:  What was your understanding then

12     of the purpose of the operations that were carried out against Stenjak

13     and Gornji Rankovici?

14        A.   I think the purpose was to mop up or cleanse the settlements, and

15     it was a part of a plan.  In the final analysis, the same was happening

16     to the Serbian villages on the other side, so some of the people who fled

17     from there were accommodated in Stenjak and Rankovici.

18        Q.   Can I just check one other document on this topic, and then I

19     want to ask you about your report.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MS. KORNER:  Yes, now, I don't think, in light of your answers, I

22     can ask you about that.

23        Q.   All right.  Can we now look, please, at the report you told us

24     you compiled and which is part of your 65 ter package.

25             It is it -- in fact, it has been exhibited before, P1353.15.

Page 10523

 1     Sorry, it's tab 84 for you, Judge.

 2             Was this report prepared by you for a meeting of the Municipal

 3     Assembly in Teslic?

 4        A.   Yes.  I did -- I did do -- I did do prepare this report.  It was

 5     sent to the municipality.  It was a report.  I think they were legally

 6     bound to inform the parliament about trends related to crimes or

 7     perpetration of crimes.

 8             I took the opportunity to inform the politicians about the

 9     situation regarding the crime.  The report show what my information was

10     and what the situation was like.

11        Q.   Can we look, please, at paragraph 3, after you deal with the

12     statistics of what happened.  You look -- you set out something a

13     paragraph headed:  "Actual Crime Situation."  And you said:

14             "Recorded crime is a refraction of the real crime existing in

15     society today.  Most criminal acts remain undiscovered and many crimes

16     are tolerated by the authorities for various reasons.  The prosecutor's

17     office has knowledge of day-to-day looting of property, houses, and

18     business premises being set on fire and destroyed.  Armed robbery and

19     murder being committed for base motives, socially owned flats and private

20     houses being occupied unlawfully, the stealing of forest timber, and

21     other forms of wilful acts.  There is no criminal prosecution for most of

22     these acts.  In ten days alone, there were three murders for base motives

23     and several cases of arson and armed robbery.  In only one cases were the

24     perpetrators arrested and criminal proceedings initiated against them.

25     The perpetrators of the other two murders have not been arrested to the

Page 10524

 1     present day.  Public prosecutor and the president of the court personally

 2     demanded that the command of the Teslic Serbian Brigade arrest one

 3     accomplice on suspicion of murder.  It is inexplicable why these people

 4     have not been arrested."

 5             And is that what you were speaking about earlier, Judge, when you

 6     said that the police were not - and I'm summarizing - carrying out their

 7     properly?

 8             Sorry, did you hear the question?  Is there a problem?

 9        A.   Yes, that is precisely that.  A large number of crimes that even

10     the public knew about and about which we had information were not

11     processed by the police.

12        Q.   And then you go on to say this:

13             "The destruction of religious buildings is a war crime against

14     civilians because of the way and the circumstances in which it was

15     perpetrated.  The Serbian people will carry a heavy burden of historical

16     responsibility until the perpetrators of these and similar criminal acts

17     are brought to justice."

18             Is that a view that you held at the time and still hold today?

19        A.   Of course.  As can you see, I was trying to warn, inform people

20     in the political leadership, people in the power that these were war

21     crimes.  I was telling that to various people like that, both privately

22     and at meeting and from this, you can see what -- how I viewed these type

23     of crimes.  I could not explain.  I could not see how it is possible for

24     religious facilities to be destroyed and then no criminal report to reach

25     us and to have police simply remain silent about it.  And my conclusions

Page 10525

 1     were that this was done with the approval of the Crisis Staff.

 2        Q.   And then you go on to say:

 3             "The state and its law enforcement organs must urgently answer

 4     the following question:  What are the causes of these serious crimes and

 5     why are they not being disclosed?  An answer to this question should be

 6     sought from the command of the Teslic Serbian Brigade and interior

 7     ministry organs.  Otherwise, the impression will be created that this

 8     state of crime in the army ranks is tolerated and that no one tries to

 9     prevent it, whilst the interior ministry organs will be placed in an

10     unenviable professional situation."

11             And then you go on to suggest whatever it is.  And you talked

12     about the religious destruction that you personally knew about in your

13     interview, and I'm not going to ask you about that again.

14             Now, finally, Judge, can I deal with the log-books that were

15     maintained at the Teslic court and about which you were asked to provide

16     various statistics, and we're going to look at some of the cases.

17             Were you able to -- you provided the statistics, we made a note,

18     and we sent you a copy translated of that note.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's the one that appears at the end

20     of the proofing note headed:  "Statistical Data from the Teslic

21     Log-Books."

22        Q.   And are able to confirm that those figures are accurate?

23        A.   Yes.  I perused this register and my assumption is that the

24     figures are correct.

25        Q.   We're going to go through some of the entries in the KT book.

Page 10526

 1             So, first of all, I think you were able to confirm that between

 2     April -- or you gave us the figures between the 1st of April and the 31st

 3     of December, 1992 the police -- the police submitted to the basic

 4     prosecutor's office in Teslic criminal reports against 395 people.  And

 5     for approximately ten of these cases, it's impossible to determine that

 6     the originator was the police, because the remarks in the book state they

 7     were transferred from other log-books; that is to say, the KTA which is

 8     the -- effectively the file which keeps documents, which relate to

 9     potential cases; and the KTN, which records unknown perpetrators.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   Yes, that is correct.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, according to the KT log-book, 1992 to 1993, the

13     police filed criminal reports in seven cases during 1992 and no cases in

14     1993 for crimes committed between the 1st of April and the 31st of

15     December, 1992 by Serb perpetrators where the aggrieved parties were

16     Muslims or Croats.  So only seven cases all together.  And I think we

17     better look at those cases in a little detail, please.

18             MS. KORNER:  So can we have up the --

19        Q.   You've got in front of you I think your -- your KTN -- your KT

20     book.  And the -- it's right at the end.  I think we need to have up

21     first 0 -- 65 ter 1546.  And it's tab -- sorry.  No, it's not tab -- it

22     won't be a tab.  You should have the whole book.

23             MS. KORNER:  He's got the whole book.  Yeah.

24             And now I need to get it.

25             Will Your Honours forgive me for a moment while I just get the

Page 10527

 1     copies.

 2        Q.   Now the first case, could we look at is, at -- it's number 126 in

 3     the register.  And it's -- it should be on page 05049809 in the original

 4     B/C/S.

 5             Now, we can -- if we can get the right pages up for -- it's the

 6     first page in the English translation.

 7             Sorry, this is not -- this is actually cases of -- I'm doing the

 8     whole book, actually, because it's easier that way.  We'll come to the --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 100?

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   If you look at entry 126.  Sorry, I just want to look at some of

12     the cases of armed rebellion as well.  While we're at it, we'll do the

13     whole book together.

14        A.   Yes, Rifan Sakic was reported, criminal offence under Articles

15     119 and 124.  Those are two offences.

16        Q.   Yes, and, Your Honours, I do have, as part of the law library,

17     which seems to go ever further back in being produced.

18             But that is of the -- the old Yugoslav law, is it not, and

19     Article 119 is?

20        A.   Yes, yes, I think that the offences in question are armed

21     rebellion and serving in an enemy army.

22        Q.   That's right.  Okay.  So let's just look at those.  We see there

23     that there were three people, is that right -- no, more than that.

24     Three -- if we go to page 3 of the English --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10528

 1        Q.   -- 4 of the English, rather.  We'll see that some --

 2        A.   Six persons.

 3        Q.   -- six persons charged with armed rebellion and serving in the

 4     enemy's forces, which is 119.

 5             And does the log show what happened to them?

 6        A.   It should show a request to launch an investigation.  Now this

 7     says "ceded."  Ceded to the higher.  Probably higher prosecutor's office.

 8     Hmm, let me check.

 9             I can't really find my way in these log-books.

10        Q.   All right.  Don't worry.  I don't think it matters much anyhow.

11             So that's the first case of armed rebellion.  I should have --

12     fax said that the book show all together, and you checked, there is a

13     total of 20 persons being reported for armed rebellion.

14             The next one that -- can we go to is 120 --

15             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, since you're about to go on to a new

16     book, perhaps we should take the break at this point?

17             MS. KORNER:  I'm not, I'm just going straight through this book,

18     but I'm going through the entries that are relevant.

19             JUDGE HALL:  And I would alert you that, according to our

20     calculations, you have about 20 minutes left.

21             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well, I'm going deal with the entries in the

22     book, and that's it.

23             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the break at this point.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

Page 10529

 1                           --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 3        Q.   Judge, can we go on with the -- can we go on as quickly as we can

 4     because I have very little time left with the log-book.  Number 127 which

 5     you will find on page -- it's the fourth page in the English translation

 6     and in the B/C/S it's got 05049811.  Which is page 6.

 7             127, we've got a number of Muslims, is that right, apparently

 8     from the Gornji Rankovic operation, who were charged under Article 213,

 9     this time of the Bosnian Criminal Code, and I think we'll find that's

10     illegal possession of weapons.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   All right.  Then can we move, 148, which you will find on page

13     6 -- sorry, the English, but it's 05049817 in B/C/S, which is page 12

14     in -- in the actual log-book charged under the SFRY code with

15     Article 124.

16        A.   SFRJ.

17        Q.   Yeah.  Which is armed rebellion again.  I should say that you --

18     the statistics you worked out for armed rebellion cases were a total

19     of -- sorry.  Forgive me, I have lost my sheet of paper with those

20     figures on it, which is very unhelpful of me.  20 persons all together?

21             MS. KORNER:  Then can we go, please, because there's a lot of

22     people involved in this one, it goes on for pages, to entry number 149 in

23     the log, 10th of July, 05049825.  It's page 14 in English and page 20 in

24     B/C/S.

25        Q.   And this is one of the ones where Serbs were charged.  And I

Page 10530

 1     think here we see, is this right, the Mice?  Entry 149.

 2        A.   Just a moment.

 3        Q.   You should have at the top, page 05049825 stamped.  It's page 14

 4     in English.

 5        A.   Yes, 149.  Correct.  It's about the Mice.

 6        Q.   All right.  I can't see if it is up on the screen.  It is.

 7     Right.

 8             They're charged with a number of different offences.  I think 52

 9     is under the Bosnian Code false imprisonment, 151 is robbery, 148 is

10     aggravated theft, and 160 is extortion and murder.

11             Now, if we go, please, in the next page in English, and I think

12     to the next page in -- we see it goes on and on and on.

13             Does the file show that in fact there was no criminal proceedings

14     at all against any of these men, were actually brought to any conclusion?

15        A.   You mean with regard to the Mice?

16        Q.   I do, yes.

17        A.   Yes.  So far, none has been concluded.

18        Q.   Are the people who were charged and recorded in this book still

19     at large?  In other words, are they still wondering the streets?

20        A.   Yes, they're at large.  I think that proceedings were launched

21     only against one.  But, no, he was -- he belonged to -- he didn't belong

22     to the Mice; he was from the Teslic police.

23             No other criminal proceedings were launched against the Mice

24     anywhere, as far as I know.

25        Q.   All right.  Can we move to the second book, please.

Page 10531

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm going to ask that both books be

 2     exhibited together.  I mean, they've been translated together.

 3             So it's page 20 in the English translation.

 4        Q.   Second book for you, and can we go for you to 157.  And it's page

 5     05 -- 05049625 is stamped at the top.

 6             It's 28 in the B/C/S.

 7             Now, again, this is one of the seven examples you found of a Serb

 8     being charged in relation to an offence apparently committed against a

 9     Muslim.  And I think 148 is the charge of aggravated theft?

10             Do you remember anything about the details of this case?

11        A.   As far as I remember, this was a group of three or four persons

12     who had committed several criminal offences of aggravated theft in

13     several areas.  I think that there were both Serbs and Muslims among the

14     victims.

15        Q.   All right.  And then --

16        A.   Yes, as the harmed party.

17        Q.   All right.  Then can we go to 160.  It's on the same page in the

18     English.  I think it may be in the same page in the B/C/S.  It is.

19             Again, is that a case where Serbs, a number of them, were charged

20     with -- with murder.  And this time defamation.  Do you remember about

21     that case?  This is a whole group.  The one before that was a single one.

22     160, there are four of them it looks like?

23        A.   No, I spoke about a number 160.  And which one were you referring

24     to earlier?

25        Q.   157.  Somebody called Mile Stanojevic?

Page 10532

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  This is also about aggravated theft.

 2        Q.   Right.  So the one you were talking about was the one involving

 3     four.  If we look at the result for each of these cases, we need to go to

 4     the next page in English, page 21, we see that in respect of

 5     Mr. Stanojevic, the investigation appears to have been terminated; is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   I can't find the box.

 8        Q.   On the box, I think, 46.

 9        A.   Yes this is what it says:  "Investigation terminated," as a

10     remark.

11             Yes, the remark is that the investigation was terminated.

12        Q.   And for the other, the group one, does it look -- they were given

13     although they were sentenced apparently in 1998, nothing happened until

14     then.  They were given an amnesty?

15        A.   I can't explain what happened.  Obviously, this was after I was

16     relieved of my duties.  So I don't know the outcome.

17             It is possible, since this involves persons who were soldiers.

18        Q.   All right.

19        A.   Members of military units, they may have gone to battle-fields

20     and were not available throughout the war.  This could happen, and we did

21     have such problems who -- with people who committed crimes and, due to

22     the war operations, we could not get at them.

23        Q.   And if they were soldiers, then why were they dealt with by the

24     civilian court?  This is in September of 1992.

25        A.   Possibly the military court didn't function in that period

Page 10533

 1     either.  We launched these proceedings because we thought that we were

 2     more efficient and that there would be no objections based on

 3     jurisdiction.

 4        Q.   All right.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Can we move then, please, as quickly as we can to

 6     166 in your book, page 22 in English, 05049627 in the original, page 30.

 7        Q.   It's page -- sorry, Judge, when I say 30 it's our purposes, not

 8     yours.  You need to look at the number at the top.

 9        A.   Which entry?

10        Q.   166, 15th of September, 1992.  The perpetrators appear to be

11     Serbs, and indeed there seems to be a woman with them, Natasa Petkovic?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And the victim is Muharem Demir, charged, amongst other things,

14     with aggravated theft.  Are you able to confirm whether the facts were

15     that these -- they broke into the garage of a non-Serb and stole a

16     bicycle?

17        A.   Yes, this is theft.  Mostly these are -- these instances of

18     breaking and entering.

19        Q.   And is right that it shows here that the proceedings were

20     suspended under column 29?

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, unfortunately it's gone slightly odd

22     in the translation, but I think the original does show that.

23        A.   I can't see it in the log-book here, so I'm not sure.

24        Q.   All right.  I'm told I've got very little time left, so we need

25     to really go through this at speed.  170?

Page 10534

 1        A.   Yes, it says ...

 2        Q.   Could we have a look, please, very quickly, and I think I will

 3     just have to list the other ones because we won't have enough time.

 4             At 170, do we see further people charged -- which is page 24 in

 5     English; 05049629 in your copy.

 6        A.   Bruno Pajunovic, yes.

 7        Q.   Further armed rebellion case against -- is this right?  Are they

 8     Croats here?

 9        A.   Yes, they are the Croats from the village of Slatina and the

10     other village is Donja Komusina.

11        Q.   There is another armed rebellion at 173.  Can we go to 178,

12     please, page 28 in English and it's 36 in B/C/S for the e-court.  But

13     it's page 05049633 for you.

14             Is that again a case where a Serb was charged but the victim was

15     a Muslim.  And does the charge show in 153 is --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   -- that a -- is that theft of a car?

18        A.   I think so.  Yes.  Stealing a car.  Probably this is a stolen

19     passenger car.

20        Q.   All right.  And then 182, please, at page 30; 05049635.  3rd of

21     November.  Is that, again, a Serb perpetrator?  Doesn't actually show the

22     victim.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   All right.

25        A.   Entry 182, right?

Page 10535

 1        Q.   Yep.  And does that -- it is illegible in our copy that's why it

 2     has not been translated.  Does it, in fact, show that the victim was a

 3     Muslim?  Are you able to read it?  Apparently the translator couldn't.

 4        A.   Judging by the surname, Hadzijusic [phoen] or something, I can't

 5     really tell.

 6        Q.   All right.  And, as I say, I'm going have to list the rest.

 7     Except 185, I think we'll see slightly more serious.  Page 32 in English,

 8     05049637, and it's page 40 for the e-court, B/C/S.

 9             Again, was that a Serb perpetrator?

10        A.   Yes, a Serb.

11        Q.   And -- and a Muslim victim?

12        A.   The victim was a Bosniak.

13        Q.   Bosniak.  And was this, in fact, a house fire, and the charge was

14     of that endangering public safety.

15        A.   Yes, I think it is.

16        Q.   All right.  I don't think we've got enough time to go through the

17     other entries.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the cases of, just for the purposes of

19     the record, [indiscernible] of Serb perpetrators, are those which are

20     listed as entries or the ones we've been through, 149, 157, 160, 166,

21     178, 182, and 185.  And as I've said already, the statistics as confirmed

22     by Judge Peric are that in the KT log-book a total of 20 persons reported

23     for the crime of armed insurrection, Article 124, in 1992; one person in

24     1993; 81 persons reported for the crime of service in the enemy army,

25     Article 119 in 1992; and four persons in 1993 for the crimes committed in

Page 10536

 1     1992.

 2             Then I think a total of 92 persons were reported for illegal

 3     possession of fire-arms, Article 213 in 1992 and 24 persons in 1993, but

 4     the crime is committed in 1992.

 5             And according to the KTN log-book, the police filed criminal

 6     reports against 21 unknown perpetrators in 1992.  Five unknown

 7     perpetrators in 1993 for crimes committed in 1992.  And in six of the

 8     unknown perpetrator cases reported in 1992, the victim was a non-Serb.

 9     And only two of the unknown perpetrator cases reported in 1993 was the

10     victim -- again, crimes committed in 1992, was the victim a non-Serb.

11             No criminal charges against Serbs for war crimes committed in

12     1992.

13        Q.   And those are the statistics you found from going through the

14     books, are they, Judge Peric?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I perused all the log-books and the result

16     was as we've seen.

17        Q.   Right.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask that the two KT books --

19     registers, rather, should be exhibited together.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01365.  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   Now, finally, Judge Peric, this.  We've seen that there -- there

24     are some cases where there were Serb perpetrators and it involved

25     non-Serb victims where there prosecutions, investigations and

Page 10537

 1     prosecutions.  Are you able to say why that was?  I mean, the crimes that

 2     we've seen are, I suppose, in terms of what you've described happening in

 3     Teslic in your report much less, but why were these people prosecuted and

 4     others not?

 5        A.   I think that the people processed were criminals of classical

 6     type so to speak, and in the case where the people weren't prosecuted,

 7     those were the people either that were under the control of the police or

 8     the case was that maybe police didn't want them to be prosecuted.  That's

 9     the only conclusion I can reach.

10        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much, indeed Judge.  That's all I ask you.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, before you complete your

12     examination-in-chief, I just sat with one question in relation to the

13     entry that you showed to Judge Peric in respect of the persons who were

14     not prosecuted in 1992 or 1993 but finally were prosecuted and sentenced

15     in 1998 and then subsequently given an amnesty.

16             And my question was, and I apologise for not having picked it up

17     while Judge Peric was giving his testimony, but my question is whether

18     these people who were finally sentenced in 1998 and subsequently given an

19     amnesty were members of the Mice Group.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  It's entry 160, Your Honour, at page 20 in

21     English.

22        Q.   And Judge, if can you go back to that, 05049625 --

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You don't have to do that.  Just let me confirm

24     with Judge Peric that, indeed, these people who were not prosecuted in

25     1992 or 1993 but were finally prosecuted in 1998, and then subsequently

Page 10538

 1     given an amnesty, that they were indeed members of the Mice Group.

 2             Judge can you confirm this.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I don't think so.

 4        Q.   Judge, were these people at 160, were they members of the

 5     Mice Group?  Maybe they were actually.  I have to go back to the name.

 6        A.   No.  The men under 160 were not members of the Mice.  This is a

 7     group of criminals who were registered as habitual offenders.  So common

 8     criminals.  They were not in any way related to the Mice Group.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Judge.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Thank you again, Judge.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Peric, good day to you.

15        A.   Good day.

16        Q.   My name is Slobodan Cvijetic.  I represent, among others,

17     Mr. Mico Stanisic, the accused here.

18             Before we start discussing specific issues, I would like to start

19     by asking you a few questions concerning your appointment to the position

20     of public prosecutor.

21             Could you please tell us, based on which decision by which organ

22     you became the public prosecutor in Teslic?

23        A.   It was a specific situation.  It was not according to the law.  I

24     left Brod on the 3rd or the 4th of March, because I lived in

25     Bosanski Brod, and with the start of the war, I moved to Teslic, because

Page 10539

 1     I was born in the surroundings of Teslic.  And at about 20th of May a

 2     prosecutor from Teslic left and the prosecutor's office was left without

 3     a prosecutor.  The president of the executive board who knew me and who

 4     knew that I was in Teslic asked me to take over this position.  He

 5     explained that the institution suddenly didn't have a prosecutor and that

 6     the government need to do something about it.  He asked -- he told me

 7     that they would make an appointment and that he will arrange it with the

 8     parliament that the parliament later approves of my appointment.

 9             So it was on the basis of a decision by the Executive Board that

10     I became the prosecutor there.  I don't know whether I was also given

11     some kind of work obligation or assigned a work assignment, because

12     everyone in Teslic did have.  But I was appointed based on a decision by

13     the Executive Board, and I was appointed only later, in August, by the

14     National Assembly and according to the legal procedure at the time.

15        Q.   It was a situation that was not in keeping with the law and that

16     was forced by the circumstances of Teslic at the time.  Am I not right?

17        A.   Yes, you're right.

18        Q.   I'm saying this and what I mean by it is that there was no

19     communication with a central authority.  Are you -- do you agree with me?

20        A.   What central organs do you refer to?  We did have communications

21     with Banja Luka and with Pale, but the connection with -- the

22     communication with Doboj, I think, at the time, was not functioning.

23        Q.   I can show you a document and then we can elaborate.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

25     for 1D03-3322 to be put on the screen.

Page 10540

 1             35.

 2        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Peric.  Do you have the

 3     registrator [as interpreted]?  It's in this binder, can you find it under

 4     35?

 5        A.   What we have here is a 1996 document.  It's a decision on the

 6     termination of my post.

 7        Q.   Just give us a moment.  We'll try and find it.  I don't think

 8     we've -- it's the right document in the B/C/S version.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Can counsel please repeat the number again,

10     please.  Thanks.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D03-3322.

12        Q.   I think that we have the right document now.

13             Mr. Peric, in this document, we can see it's a decision stating

14     that your employment in the public prosecutor's office is terminated; is

15     that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And in the statement of reasons, we can see that you were

18     appointed on the 21st of May, 1992, by the --

19        A.   Executive Committee.

20        Q.   And in the second paragraph of the statement of reason, one can

21     read that the National Assembly, at its session of 14 June 1995, adopted

22     a decision relieving you of this duty; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And below that, you can see the answer to your query whether you

25     were also under work assignment, because here we can see that you had

Page 10541

 1     your work assignment or work obligation and that it was in the

 2     prosecutor's office.

 3        A.   Yes, it says here so.

 4        Q.   What we cannot see from this decision is the following.  Whether

 5     you were, were you at all, appointed formally to this position of public

 6     prosecutor.  Would you agree with me that it cannot be seen from this

 7     document?

 8        A.   Yes it cannot be seen in this document.  I do know that I was

 9     appointed, I think it was in August.  It was by the decree of the Serbian

10     Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I remember having taken my oath in

11     the district court in Doboj.

12        Q.   Let me assist with you this.  So you agree that, throughout this

13     period, we have had a legally irregular situation with you.  From the

14     time of your appointment by the Executive Committee until the time you

15     were appointed by the relevant state organ?

16        A.   If one views it formally, yes.  My appointment wasn't done

17     according to the law.

18        Q.   Since we're discussing this Executive Committee, could you please

19     tell me what power the local authorities had at the time, and I

20     specifically mean Crisis Staffs.  What were their powers?

21        A.   I think they had the crucial power.  I think they had the main

22     power vested in them.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You will then agree with me that the result of such a

24     role of this was your appointment for public prosecutor in the

25     municipality of Teslic?

Page 10542

 1        A.   Yeah.  Well, this was their decision.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now resolve this issue of when was it that you

 3     were actually appointed so that the Trial Chamber is informed of that as

 4     well.

 5             Let us go back to document 872.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's from 65 ter list of the

 7     Prosecutor.  It is tab number 84, I apologise; but 84 from the binder of

 8     Prosecutor's materials.  I apologise, I failed to switch my mic on.

 9             I would like to ask the Court Officer whether you've managed to

10     find this document, number 84?  Okay.

11        Q.   Mr. Peric, this is a report you've discussed with the Prosecutor

12     a moment ago.  This is your report on the crime situation; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You're stating in the second paragraph, referring to a decision

16     of appointment by the Presidency of the Serbian Republic, and then we see

17     the number and the date.  And yes, you're right, the date is the 23rd of

18     August, 1992.

19             Can you see that?

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So we've resolved that issue.  Yet I think you would

22     agree with me, the appointment of -- by the Presidency is, again, a

23     result of the situation; namely, the immediate threat of war, because at

24     times like that, at times when the Assembly cannot convene, the

25     Presidency was the organ that took over some of the Assembly's duties.

Page 10543

 1     Do you agree?

 2        A.   No I don't think that is correct.  I think the Assembly was the

 3     body appointing or electing the officials and then the Presidency would

 4     be actually just appointing them.

 5        Q.   Fine.  But it was in August 1992?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we move to

 8     the next document, this previous document, since the witness identified;

 9     namely, it's the document concerning his appointment, I would like to ask

10     for it to be entered into evidence.  It's 1D03-3322.

11             JUDGE HALL:  This hasn't been previously exhibited?

12             Yes, well, admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D00274.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Peric, since we have this report which is still on the

16     screen, and before we remove it, could you help me just with one issue.

17     I cannot see from this report whom it was addressed to?  I don't see a

18     date, the date of its drafting?

19        A.   This is a separate document.  There was another cover page.  It

20     would include my KTA number and the date of submitting.

21        Q.   So you would agree with me that one cannot conclude from the

22     document itself, neither to whom it was addressed, nor the date when it

23     was drafted?

24        A.   I can confirm that it was sent to the Municipal Assembly and most

25     probably in early October, because it was for the two-months period.

Page 10544

 1        Q.   You mean the Municipal Assembly of Teslic?  Am I right?

 2        A.   Yes, of course.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.

 4             Mr. Peric, let us move to a different topic.  Let us briefly

 5     discuss constitutional and legal position of the public prosecutor as a

 6     member of the judicial system within Republika Srpska at the time, and

 7     maybe the best starting point for this exercise would be to take a look

 8     at how the constitution of the Republika Srpska defines your position.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have Exhibit P181.

10        Q.   You will find it under tab 24 in the binder that you have there.

11             Just tell me when you have the document in front of you.

12        A.   Yes, yes, please.  Which article?

13        Q.   A bit of patience, please.  I first must inform the Trial Chamber

14     where it is.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go to page 10 of

16     the B/C/S and page 21 of the English version.

17        Q.   Specifically, we are interested in Article 133.  I believe we

18     have it already.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just scroll down in the English

20     version.

21        Q.   Mr. Peric.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   This says literally that:

24             "The office of the public prosecutor is an independent state

25     agency prosecuting perpetrators of criminal offences and other punishable

Page 10545

 1     acts specified by law, and applies legal remedies in order to protect...

 2     legality."

 3             Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So the constitution briefly but effectively defines the role of

 6     the public prosecutor, tasking him or her with taking action against

 7     perpetrators of criminal and other offences.

 8        A.   I believe this is pretty unclear what is meant by taking action

 9     against or persecuting, as it says here in the English, because if we

10     look at the Law on -- on Interior Affairs.

11        Q.   Mr. Peric, please allow me to ask my questions.  We are now

12     interpreting the constitution and we are arguing that this is not precise

13     enough?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Then let us look at the decision on the basic organisation and

16     the seats of public prosecutor's offices.

17             Let us see document 1D03-3318.

18             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours before -- before we come off

19     this document, Judge Peric wanted to say something about the Law on

20     Internal Affairs and was cut off.  I think he ought to be allowed to

21     answer it if it's on the point of the question he was being asked.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We would have -- this issue would have arisen

23     yesterday.  Yes, the witness should be permitted and -- complete his

24     answer, Mr. Cvijetic.

25             Judge Peric --

Page 10546

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] With your leave Your Honours, the

 2     Law on Internal Affairs is an exhibit on my list already, and I will

 3     discuss it with the witness but in a way and at the time I decide in my

 4     cross-examination.  I will proceed in my sequence, and I will reach the

 5     Law on Internal Affairs yet.  It is it contained in the binder which is

 6     in front of the witness.

 7             MS. KORNER:  It may be so --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Except, Mr. Cvijetic, that if either in

 9     examination-in-chief or in cross-examination, a witness is asked a

10     question and gives an answer, unless he is wondering off into

11     irrelevancies, and that is something to which the Chamber would be alive,

12     he should, as a matter of courtesy, be permitted to complete his answer.

13     And to cut off a witness in mid-sentence is simply not proper.  And I

14     think that is the point that Ms. Korner was making.  As I said, it is

15     with which -- which arose yesterday, as recently as yesterday.

16             I was about to ask the witness whether he remembers now the

17     question that he was seeking to answer when the -- when this interruption

18     occurred.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I wanted to explain the

20     position of the public prosecutor's office and the bodies of the Ministry

21     of Interior, that is, the police.

22             It says here in the constitution that the public prosecutor's

23     task is to prosecute the perpetrators of crimes --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down and start

25     over.

Page 10547

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Judge Peric, the interpreters are having difficulty

 2     keeping up with you, so if you would be so kind as to slow down in your

 3     response.  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will repeat.

 5             I wanted to explain the position of the public prosecutor and the

 6     bodies of the -- of Internal Affairs, that is the police.

 7             Under the Law on Criminal Procedure, the bodies of Internal

 8     Affairs were duty-bound to identify perpetrators of crimes and collect

 9     evidence and that is their crucial role; whereas, the prosecutor was

10     duty-bound to launch a judicial proceedings based on that, and that is

11     the distinction between the prosecutor and the police.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, please continue.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, both pieces of

15     legislation that the witness mentioned, I was going to put to him anyway.

16     But you have anticipated my questions.  Very well.

17             I asked for document 1D03-3318 to be displayed.  That's under

18     tab 26.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.  You can ask your

20     question.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Just bear with us.  We have to see it on our screens first.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I know that the translation of

24     this document was pending.  I'm not sure whether it is finished.  Let us

25     just check whether we have an English version available.

Page 10548

 1             If this is the English version, please show us the heading of the

 2     document.  Let's scroll up.  Is it this document?  Yes.  Well, we're

 3     interested in Article 2.  We can see it on both versions?

 4        Q.   Mr. Peric, the constitutional position of the public prosecutor's

 5     office is also defined by the decision on the main principles of the

 6     organisation, seat, and it's the territory of the public prosecutor's

 7     offices in the very way I said.  But it is an autonomous state body which

 8     prosecute the perpetrators of crimes and other offences punishable by

 9     law -- by law, et cetera.  Are you saying that --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat his last question.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, the interpreters did not get your

12     last question.  So if you would be good enough to repeat it.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Peric, it seems to me that this decision and Article 2

15     defines the position of the public prosecutor's office rather clearly.  I

16     fail to see what is unclear here.

17        A.   I suppose that this definition was taken over.  This isn't any

18     matter of organisational nature, so I don't see your point, but possibly

19     this is a definition from the law.  I am not denying that it is contained

20     in this decision.

21        Q.   It was taken over from the Law on Public Prosecutor's offices of

22     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was applied based on

23     the Constitutional Law for the Implementation of the Constitution of the

24     Republika Srpska in which there was a provision, and you know that, to

25     the effect that, in the RS until the adoption of relevant laws and other

Page 10549

 1     pieces of legislation, the laws and regulations of the Socialist Republic

 2     of Bosnia-Herzegovina are to be applied if they are in accordance with

 3     the constitution, et cetera.

 4             You know of this provision of the constitutional law by which the

 5     laws and regulations of the former Socialist Republic of BiH were taken

 6     over; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Well, then you have to agree with me when I say that the

 9     constitutional position of the public prosecutor in the RS is defined in

10     the same way as it was in the Socialist Republic of BiH; correct?

11        A.   I can agree to that.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, this line of question, has it a

13     special -- a specific purpose in regard to this witness, or is this just

14     a repetition of what we heard over and over again, in the -- in the

15     recent past?

16             JUDGE HALL:  And before you attempt to answer Judge Delvoie's

17     question, I would add a subquestion of my own:  Is there no -- is --

18     there's no controversy, is there, as to the fact that the witness was in

19     post in this legal public office performing the duties at the relevant

20     time?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, so far, we've only

22     had the Constitutional Law About the Implementation of the Constitution,

23     and we are referring to it often.  But, now, for the first time, we meet

24     regulations dealing with the work of the public prosecutor, which has not

25     been the case so far, and we haven't had a public prosecutor yet either,

Page 10550

 1     so it's important for us define the position of the public prosecutor and

 2     the relations between him and the Internal Affairs; that is, the police.

 3     That is a relevant fact in this trial.  Because the Defence does not

 4     fully agree with the definition of the relationship existing between the

 5     police and the public prosecutor's office as it was defined by the

 6     witness in his statement given to the Prosecution, which is part of the

 7     OTP set of evidence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  May I suggest, Mr. Cvijetic, that it would be more

 9     helpful to the Trial Chamber if you were to proceed directly with your

10     challenge to the witness as to how, as I understand what you have just

11     said, he misapprehended or misappreciated the nature of his work in

12     relation to other relevant agencies.  Because otherwise it appears that

13     we're heading down a -- either a -- into a purely academic exercise or

14     the Chamber is being drawn into making a ruling on different

15     interpretations of Bosnian law which we are certainly not competent to

16     do.

17             So if I understand your right, perhaps you should proceed

18     directly to your challenge of the witness as to how he did perform his

19     duties while he was in post.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I want to do all

21     that, but I cannot before I provide references and show the laws and

22     regulations, to set a foundation for the position of the Defence.

23             I would first like to tender this decision into evidence because

24     the witness clearly recognised the document establishing the organisation

25     of the public prosecutor's offices.

Page 10551

 1             So let me repeat, 1D03-3318.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Wouldn't this be a matter for the law library rather

 4     than being tendered as an exhibit, as a specific exhibit, Mr. Cvijetic?

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a very brief

 6     decision, and it is -- it's a fact that only Article 2 is relevant on

 7     occasion of this testimony.

 8             I will also volunteer my personal opinion.  I'm a pessimist with

 9     regard to the outlook of establishing this law library, so I would really

10     prefer this to be tendered or admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE HALL:  As you say, it's a short decision so we'd mark it as

12     an exhibit, Mr. Cvijetic.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number 1D00275.  Thank you, Your

14     Honours.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the following

16     document is an exhibit I wanted to show to the witness.  He has already

17     referred to it.  It requires more time for me to deal with it, so with

18     your leave, I propose that I continue with this document tomorrow.

19     Because I might be able, just to finish one paragraph, and that is, I

20     believe, not a good approach.

21             We're nearing 7.00 anyway.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Judge Peric, the Chamber is about to conclude its

23     sitting for the day.  We will resume, as I indicated to you earlier, at

24     9.00 our time tomorrow morning.  And I am obliged to caution you,

25     although having regard to your own profession you will readily appreciate

Page 10552

 1     this, but having been sworn as a witness you cannot discuss your

 2     testimony with anyone outside -- your testimony before the Tribunal

 3     with -- with other persons.

 4             So thank you, sir.  We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of May,

 7                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.