1 Thursday, 27 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone. And everyone's favourite courtroom.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Good morning, Your Honours. Matthew Olmsted,
13 Joanna Korner, and Jasmina Bosnjakovic for the Prosecution.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For
18 Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Before we resume, yesterday the dictates of the clock meant that
21 we had to adjourn before we could resolve a matter that was before us. I
22 just wish to update the parties that we are still considering the
23 question and will give our final decision in -- in due -- we trust in the
24 course of this day, but in -- certainly we expect by tomorrow.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Radulovic. Can you
2 hear me?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you.
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Again, I remind that you are are still under
5 your oath, as I invite Mr. Olmsted to resume his -- to continue his
7 WITNESS: PREDRAG RADULOVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Olmsted: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Radulovic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Where we left off yesterday was that you had returned to
13 Banja Luka after you had visiting the Omarska and Keraterm camps. When
14 you returned to Banja Luka, did you meet with anyone from the CSB?
15 A. Yes, I did. On that very same day in the -- evening hours I met
16 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin. There was Djuro Bulic also attending, who was
17 getting ready to go some kind of gym or something like that. I remember
18 he was wearing track suit pants. He had sneakers on and, strangely,
19 woolen socks. I don't know whether that -- whether that you find that
20 unusual, but he actually did have woolen socks. And considering the
21 circumstances I was witnessed to, I was a little bit under the weather.
22 But I insisted - I remember that - for the Prijedor incident to be put
23 under some sort of operational control in order to stop it.
24 Djuro Bulic --
25 Q. Let me stop you there, Mr. Radulovic. Let me -- today let me
1 really ask the questions and you give answers because I do have very much
2 limited time left.
3 Did you tell Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Bulic everything that you had
4 observed at the Omarska and Keraterm camps that day?
5 A. I told them the most important details about the harassment,
6 mistreatment, killing of people. I talked about the ways in which people
7 were killed. I told them that active-duty officers of the public and
8 state security were displeased with such kind of treatment. And those
9 who were in charge of bringing in people, these people, are the people I
10 had in mind.
11 Q. It's quite -- quite --
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm pretty sure -- I don't -- I'm not wearing my
13 earphones, but I'm pretty sure that the translation of the answer of the
14 witness is not recorded properly because that is not what he said. If --
15 if can you ask him to repeat his answer, please.
16 MR. OLMSTED:
17 Q. All right. Just very briefly, Mr. Radulovic, did you tell
18 Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Bulic at this meeting everything or at least the
19 most important details of what you had observed at Omarska and Keraterm
20 camps that day? You don't have to go into all the details, as we've
21 heard what you observed yesterday.
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And it's probably quite obvious that this was an emotional time
24 for you, having witnessed what you had seen. How did Mr. Zupljanin react
25 to the information you provided at that meeting that day?
1 A. My understanding was that he was surprised that he didn't trust
2 my words then. He told me something along the lines of he will look into
3 it. And that was mostly what he said.
4 Q. Do you recall someone at the meeting saying to you, Radule, it's
5 a war?
6 A. Yes, Stojan Zupljanin did, and that this is happening.
7 Q. And when Mr. Zupljanin told you, Radule, it's a war, after you
8 had told him what was happening at the camp, how did you respond to that?
9 A. I will remember the scene until I'm alive -- until the day I die.
10 It was the first time in my life that I cried in front of my senior
11 officer. I started crying after Djuro Bulic started telling
12 Mr. Zupljanin that they should hurry because they have a football game
14 Q. And did they then leave and go to that football match?
15 A. They did. And I started crying in front of the building of the
16 CSB in Banja Luka. Goran Sajinovic was with me, and he behaved the same
17 as I did.
18 Q. May I ask you, when Mr. Zupljanin made this comment to you,
19 Radule, it's a war, you said that you began crying. But did you respond
20 to that statement that he made; and, if so, what did you tell
21 Mr. Zupljanin?
22 A. I cannot repeat -- or I don't even want to remember the feelings.
23 But I remember insisting that something has to be done about it,
24 something -- some kind of reaction should come immediately. I simply
25 believed that no game of soccer, even if it was world championships, can
1 be more urgent than stopping this kind of criminal activities of people
2 who were in Omarska and Keraterm.
3 Q. Well, did you think that -- that what happened in Omarska and --
4 or did you tell them - Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Bulic - that what happened
5 in Omarska and Keraterm wasn't justified by this war?
6 A. Yes, I did. If I my quote myself, which is something I don't do
7 gladly, I reported it in one of my reports. I even described it as
8 genocide and fascist behaviour, the things that were happening in the
9 camps. I think can you find this report of mine. I cannot find a more
10 serious word to describe the events than this one, especially in 1992.
11 Q. Now, after this meeting that you had on the day that you visited
12 Omarska and Keraterm camps, did you speak with anyone in Belgrade about
13 the Omarska camp? I think you mentioned yesterday a conversation you had
14 with Marko Lazarevic --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was that around the time of this meeting?
17 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, but it's Marko "Lazovic," not "Lazarevic."
18 I had a word with him. But before that, before I went to Keraterm and
19 Omarska, he had called me and told me that he had some information about
20 things happening in Omarska and Keraterm and that I should go and look
21 into it and then report to him. And then when I returned, I first
22 informed him first verbally or, rather, over the phone, telling him what
23 was going on there, and then I put it into a report, a more detailed
24 report, where I repeated all I'd said on the phone.
25 After that, I went to Belgrade
1 members of the Milos Group, I briefed, in detail, Mr. Marko Lazovic about
2 all we've seen in the area of Omarska, Keraterm, and Prijedor.
3 Q. Did you also tell Marko Lazovic about how Mr. Zupljanin had
4 reacted to the information that you had provided him about the camp -- or
5 let me -- perhaps I should say lack of response?
6 A. I told him everything. I didn't cover up anything just as I'm
7 not covering up anything now, neither the reaction of Stojan Zupljanin
8 nor the one of Djuro Bulic.
9 Q. Some days later, did you have another conversation with
10 Mr. Zupljanin about the detention facilities in Prijedor?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. And at that meeting with Mr. Zupljanin, what did he tell you?
13 What did he inform you?
14 A. He told me he received information that indicate roughly that my
15 words, my -- what I told him was, indeed, so, and that a commission is
16 going to be formed that will go and see first-hand. At the time, I
17 didn't know who will the members of the commission be, and later on I
18 found out who these people were, and I found out what their reaction was.
19 Q. You said that Mr. Zupljanin had received confirmation of the
20 information you provided him. Did he receive that from Vojin Bera?
21 A. I'm not certain whether he received them from Vojin Bera.
22 However, being an operative, I looked into what information Vojin Bera
23 might have had. And now I can say here, in front of all the people who
24 are here in the courtroom, Vojin Bera lied to Stojan Zupljanin - and this
25 is how we would put it in the Balkans - he lied to him about events in
1 Omarska and Keraterm because he, among other things, claimed that what I
2 wrote and reported wasn't true. I would like to invite Vojin Bera to
3 tell me where are the dead people I had seen, one among whom I could even
4 identify, one of those people down there on the grass. If he can bring
5 that man back here to this courtroom, then I'm a liar.
6 Q. Now, who were the members of this delegation or commission that
7 visited the detention facilities in Prijedor?
8 A. It was a combined delegation. I know for a fact that
9 Mr. Stojan Zupljanin was part of it, Mr. Predrag Radulovic, Dr. Vukic,
10 the man who was a self-proclaimed and duke, Vozd. I think
11 Radoslav Brdjanin was there. And a person from the area of Prnjavor; I'm
12 not concern about that. A man who came to the fore in the political
13 leadership, either of Republika Srpska or Krajina. I can't remember his
14 name; I do remember that he was a teacher of German language, and he
15 didn't even have qualifications for that. I guess he might have worked
16 in Germany
17 have qualified people to employ.
18 Q. This commission that consisted of Dr. Vukic and
19 Radoslav Brdjanin, amongst others, did you later arrive at any
20 conclusions about why this commission was formed?
21 A. No. It boiled down to just me knowing that the commission was
22 established and that they went to see what was going on in Keraterm and
23 Omarska. I -- I used to live above the flat of Mr. Radic, Predrag Radic,
24 and we called each other neighbour. This is something that people do in
25 the Balkans when we want to establish and show that we're on friendly
1 terms. Mr. Radic took me to his apartment, to a room of his, and he was,
2 at the time, preparing his doctor's dissertation and he told me, This
3 what I have seen is much worse than what you've told us. I don't know
4 what he had seen. He described some of the scenes, and he was quite
5 depressed after that.
6 Q. You didn't mention Predrag Radic is amongst this delegation.
7 First of all, is he the mayor of Banja Luka and also he was part of this
8 delegation that went to the camps?
9 A. That's correct. He was the mayor and he did go, according to my
10 information, together with a group up there.
11 Q. And did he tell you anything he observed about what Dr. Vukic was
12 doing while they were visiting the camps?
13 A. Yes, he did. He told me that Dr. Vukic had forced some of the
14 prisoners to raise three fingers up and to sing pro-Serbian or
15 pro-Chetnik songs. And than didn't surprise me much because I believed
16 he was a madman. Nothing Dr. Vukic would do wouldn't surprise me. I was
17 an intelligence officer, and I kept gathering information about people
18 who were of intelligence interest. And if I would present you with a
19 true picture of Dr. Vukic, you'd be surprise that he had could find his
20 place anywhere expect in the mad house.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine.
22 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take look at 65 ter 2347.
23 Q. Now, you had an opportunity to look at this article during your
24 interviews as well as, I think, again during proofing. And it's an
25 article from the Kozarski Vjesnik newspaper entitled: "It's Difficult
1 for Everyone." And it's dated 17 July 1992. This article reports on a
2 visit to Prijedor by Krajina representatives including Radoslav Brdjanin,
3 Radoslav Vukic, Predrag Radic, and Mr. Zupljanin.
4 Is this the delegation that you just were talking about that
5 visited the camps?
6 A. Yes. That's the delegation. I don't remember this article in
7 its entirety. I don't know whether even I've read it or whether I was
8 told about it about some of my associates.
9 What I remember is that Radoslav Brdjanin claimed, among other
10 things, that that was the best example of proper behaviour or actions of
11 the authorities in Republika Srpska or local authorities. In other
12 words, that the way they're acting in Prijedor should be a model for the
13 rest of Republika Srpska. I don't remember this text really. I don't
14 see it. I do think that this text should contain a statement of Brdjanin
15 to that effect.
16 Q. And I believe it does.
17 MR. OLMSTED: If we can scroll down a bit in the English version.
18 I won't be able to identify in the B/C/S, but it says -- at the bottom
19 there, it says:
20 "This state of affairs in Prijedor is an example of a job well
21 done, and it is a real shame that there are many people in Banja Luka who
22 are still oblivious to this fact as well as to other things that might
23 happen in Banja Luka at any moment now."
24 Q. Is that consistent with what you recall?
25 A. You read from the text and, of course, you were closer to what it
1 stated there than I did. But, yes, that's the thing.
2 Q. How do you reconcile what the delegation statement says with what
3 you observed at the camps?
4 A. Well, it was obvious to -- it is obvious to anyone that our views
5 were completely opposite. Nothing from this address made by
6 Radoslav Brdjanin can be compared or be identical to the materials that I
8 However, after this, I found out who briefed the delegation, who
9 had briefed the delegation, who took part in briefing the delegation, and
10 I'm not surprised at all that there is such a difference between what I
11 told the delegation and what this other group briefed them on. Because
12 they were briefed by Simo Drljaca and Vojin Bera, and I cannot see how
13 the reports could have been at all similar, because I used my eyes and my
14 reason to view things, whereas these others probably used some other
15 means, and that's where the problem is.
16 MR. OLMSTED: May this document be admitted into evidence?
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness did not
18 confirm ever having seen or read this article and then our constant
19 objection concerning introduction of articles that have nothing to do
20 with the testimony here.
21 MR. OLMSTED: First of all, Your Honours, this has been -- unless
22 it's not an issue. But this has been admitted in Stakic and in Brdjanin.
23 This witness was able to confirm that this is the delegation and also
24 what was said by the delegation or at least by Brdjanin that is very
25 consist with this document, and I think it corroborates what he's
1 testifying about.
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But what good is the article then?
3 Under Rule 92 quater there was a decision concerning Mr. Radic,
4 and there is also the testimony of this witness, what he stated.
5 JUDGE HALL: The -- I was going to ask, Mr. Krgovic, whether
6 the -- notwithstanding the minimal connection between the present witness
7 and the article, isn't the article admissible on its own? As I
8 understand the Rules. Yes.
9 Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1378, Your Honours.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Let's look at 65 ter 527.
12 Q. Mr. Radulovic, can you confirm, is this one of your team's
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This report is dated 22 August 1992. And it reports that a large
16 number of Muslim citizens were killed the previous night in
17 Koricanske Stene in Skender Vakuf area.
18 It says it's insufficiently verified. Were you able to verify
19 this information as well as obtain additional information about this
21 A. Your Honours, the information which is -- you see in front of
22 you, I wrote on the following day. That is -- that means that this was
23 the first information about the event concerned. Because we had learned
24 that during the previous night a massacre had been carried out against
25 civilians at Koricanske Stene. We later verified the event, and I
1 discussed it most with the Zivko Bojic, a member of the SJB who, among
2 others, at the time was chief of the crime investigation service. As far
3 as I know, he was charged with or he had charged somebody with dealing
4 with this incident.
5 We had a lot of information. On the same day, we learned that
6 208 Bosniaks had been killed at Koricanske Stene, and we also learned
7 about the cruel way they were killed. Of all this, I informed
8 Nedeljko Kesic, my chief of SDB, at first orally. We also wrote about it
9 later. But this was the very first information that the service had.
10 Before this, all this is an very short report, neither of SDB nor
11 the SJB had any information about it. So the managers at the CSB didn't
12 know about it, as far as can I tell.
13 Q. According to the information you were able to gather, who were
14 the perpetrators of this crime?
15 A. The members of the active and reserve police of the police
16 station in Prijedor. It is possible that there was -- there were people
17 among them who were not officially active-duty or reserve police
18 officers, but most of them were. The unit was the size of a platoon.
19 That's what it's called also, a manoeuvre platoon. They were all
20 individually identified, so the identity of the executioners is known.
21 It is known who killed the Bosniaks at Koricanske Stene.
22 Q. Did you ever see anything in writing around this time-period
23 containing the names of the perpetrators?
24 A. Yes. For the first time, I saw it when Zivko Bojic showed it to
1 If you're interested, I can add that I know that the
2 then-minister of the interior demanded additional information about it.
3 He wanted people to be interviewed and be brought in. He wanted those
4 people to be held responsible for the deeds. I know that the chief of
5 the centre -- or, rather, the police station at Prijedor, what kind of
6 communication they had with the ministry.
7 I -- as far as I know, Mico Stanisic was the minister of the
8 interior at the time, and he sent out a circular, circular dispatch,
9 demanding that all perpetrators be held responsible.
10 I repeat that, at the time, I had much contact with Zivko Bojic,
11 as one of the most experienced officers of public security. He was a
12 true professional, a fair man.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. And he didn't misunderstand my interest in the matter.
15 Q. We're going a little bit off topic here. Let me get you back on.
16 You did mention that the minister of interior had requested
17 information about this killing incident. Did you provide the minister
18 with more information about the killings?
19 A. I gave additional information directly to Zivko Bojic. I don't
20 know how you will understand it. But I and Zivko Bojic had good
21 relations. I gave him all the information that I had because I knew that
22 he would forward it to the higher level institutions or officials.
23 The service was not supposed to investigate, go to crime scenes,
24 carry out on-site investigations, and the like. So all the information
25 that I had collected, I gave to Zivko Bojic, and I saw how Zivko Bojic
1 presented that to the minister of the interior. I know about the dilemma
2 the man was in, about the event itself. I think that he was reluctant to
3 accept that on-site investigations be conducted in that manner, so he
4 wanted to have his staff do it, because he didn't approve of the methods
5 of work. There was some sort of disagreement about it. He wanted an
6 investigative judge to go there, the crime investigator, then a forensic
7 expert; and I believe that's where the disagreement -- how the
8 disagreement arose.
9 Q. Can you tell us, why did you believe that Zivko Bojic -- well,
10 let me ask you this: You said that you saw that Mr. Bojic provided the
11 information to the minister. Can you tell us how did Mr. Bojic provide
12 that information to the minister? Did he do it over the phone, did he
13 use -- did he write a dispatch, or did he go to Pale? How did he get
14 that information to the minister?
15 A. As far as I know, he related it to the minister in writing, which
16 was by the rules. Whether or not he had contact with the minister apart
17 from that, such as phone conversations, I don't know. But I do know,
18 because I saw, that much evidence was collected about the event to start
19 the process of clarifying what had happened.
20 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Bojic was displeased with how the
21 investigation, the on-site investigation, was being conducted.
22 Can you tell us, what happened to the evidence at the scene of
23 the crime? Was there anything that happened to it that -- during that
25 A. Yes. I know about it, and we wrote about it.
1 At the level of Kotor Varos municipality, a team was set up which
2 removed the bodies of the killed Bosniaks. The team was headed by the
3 current chief of Skender Vakuf municipality whose last name is Vukovic, I
5 Q. Just to clarify the record, I think you mentioned this that team
6 was established at the level of Kotor Varos municipality. Was it, in
7 fact, Skender Vakuf municipality?
8 A. What did I say? Kotor Varos? I apologise. I maid a mistake
9 because formerly Skender Vakuf -- or, rather, that part where Koricane is
10 belonged to Kotor Varos. Actually it's the Skender Vakuf municipality.
11 And the chief of Skender Vakuf municipality is Mr. Vukovic today, and he
12 was the head of the team which removed the bodies of the killed Bosniaks
13 from the area of Prijedor.
14 I apologise. I mixed up the names. The places are close, so I
15 made a mistake.
16 Q. No problem. This team, were there police officers on this team
17 to remove the bodies?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you mentioned that you reported all this information about
20 the Koricanske Stene incident to Mr. Kesic. Did you also report all this
21 information to Mr. Zupljanin?
22 A. Yes. I really don't remember.
23 Q. Well, I say that you did, in your written statement, say you did.
24 Do you want to refer to that to refresh your recollection?
25 MR. KRGOVIC: I'm really -- this practice must be stopped.
1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Olmsted. But the damage has been done.
2 Let's move on.
3 MR. OLMSTED: I'm not sure what the damage has been done. He
4 says -- his response was: "Yes." And then there was a significant
5 pause, and then he says: "I really don't remember."
6 Now, I asked him if he wants to look at his statement to refresh
7 recollection because he doesn't remember. It doesn't -- I'm not sure how
8 this is an issue. I just want him to be more confident in his answer.
9 JUDGE HALL: I -- what I heard you to be saying was to actually
10 tell the witness what he had said in his written statement.
11 Let's move on.
12 MR. OLMSTED: If he looks at his statement he can confirm whether
13 it is. I apologise -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... statement, yes --
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...
16 MR. OLMSTED: But can we have him look at his statement and see
17 if he can give us a definite answer --
18 MR. KRGOVIC: No.
19 MR. OLMSTED: -- because this is an important issue?
20 MR. KRGOVIC: No, Your Honour. It's not acceptable. You have a
21 ruling about that --
22 JUDGE HALL: But I thought we had moved on from this point
23 because the -- however unfortunate the question and answer may have been
24 put, it's been asked and answered.
25 Let's move on.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry -- I'm sorry to overtake --
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] ... one minute.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, you --
7 MS. KORNER: Can I ask to be very briefly heard on this matter.
8 First of all, it's not proper for Mr. Krgovic to leap up and yell, No.
9 He's supposed to be making an application to Your Honours not to allow
11 Your Honours, this is something that is clearly a matter of some
12 importance. And it's something that clearly we ought to sort out, and it
13 ought to be something that is not here while the witness is listening to
14 it. Taking his earphones, unfortunately, doesn't help off -- doesn't
15 help because the translation is still continuing through the earphones.
16 I really do think that the time has come, when, as you say, it's
17 interrupting the proceedings, and we really must explain exactly why
18 we're asking the witness to do this.
19 JUDGE HALL: Well, the -- where we are at procedurally, as I
20 understand it, is that -- and I thought that we had, at least on two
21 occasions that this had been gone into yesterday, I thought that everyone
22 understood. There is no objection -- that's overstating it. In the
23 Chamber's view, it is permissible for the witness on the stand,
24 particularly having regard to the complexity probably isn't the right
25 word, but how long the -- the period of time that has passed since these
1 events and the details which the evidence, particularly of this witness,
2 involves, for a witness to be invited - I indicated yesterday that I --
3 and I'm used to it being the other way, but I have no difficulty with the
4 witness being invited even by counsel who is leading him to look at his
5 written statement and then be asked the question again.
6 The reason why -- for the purpose of refreshing his memory. The
7 document does not become an exhibit. The reason why I have adopted the
8 practice of looking in the direction of the Defence is because I do not,
9 with respect, Ms. Korner, agree that Mr. Krgovic is merely interrupting
10 the proceedings. As I understand the position that he is -- he, at
11 least - I'm not so sure about the Stanisic Defence - has consistently
12 taken is that he objects to this and, therefore, for -- to preserve the
13 consistency of his position he would probably wish to have his objection
14 on the record.
15 But notwithstanding that - and in my view he is entitled to have
16 that objection registered in each case, notwithstanding the path that has
17 been laid out in terms of the -- of how we are approaching it. What
18 occurred in this case is that counsel for the Prosecution, as it were,
19 leapt over the step of having the witness refresh his memory and gave the
20 answer. And that is why I use the phrase "the damage having been done."
21 I didn't mean it in any large sense because to my mind it's a relatively
22 small point because had the -- had the intermediate step been taken by
23 Mr. Olmsted, we would have been exactly where we are now.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I say straightaway, then, Your
25 Honours, we accept that. As Your Honours have pointed out, this witness
1 made a lengthy and extremely detailed statement based on - and can I just
2 emphasise this - based on answers that he gave over a -- in a number of
3 interviews over a long period of time.
4 So -- and the statement was simply a method hopefully of dealing
5 with the Rule 92 application, Rule 92 ter application.
6 So, Your Honours, are quite right. What my objection to
7 Mr. Krgovic's objection is he is perfectly entitled each time to register
8 an objection. What we say he is not entitled to do is to leap to his
9 feet and say, No. Can he say to Your Honours, Your Honours, I want to
10 register my objection; and that's it. But he's aptly, at the moment,
11 directly addressing counsel and shouting, No. And that, apart from
12 anything else, puts the witness off.
13 Your Honours, so -- but, Your Honours, we absolutely agree. If
14 Your Honours are -- if -- provided we follow a procedure, namely that we
15 invite the witness to refresh his memory by looking at his statement and
16 then asking him whether he wants to reconsider his answer. We accept
17 that's the proper way of doing it.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to state
19 for the record that the Stanisic Defence supports the objection of the
20 Zupljanin Defence. Only we have risen so far because we see no point in
21 repeating the same objection as my -- as the other Defence.
22 I completely agree with the analysis of His Honour Judge Hall.
23 If Mr. Olmsted had proceeded the same way as yesterday, that is, asked
24 the witness whether he wanted to refresh his memory and take a look at
25 the statement and then ask his question again, it would have been all
1 right. By the way it is, I think this is a matter that has been
3 And on a different note, I believe it is improper for Ms. Korner
4 to address Mr. Krgovic in this way because Ms. Korner has risen during
5 this trial at least five times and said, No, or something along those
6 lines. So I believe we should have the same rules for everybody, and
7 we all -- we should all be responsible for what we did.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to add
10 The problem I have with the statement - and I do not rise often
11 to object - is the way how this case is presented and how this witness is
12 led. This is not an authentic statement of this witness given
13 immediately after the events or concerning an earlier time-period about
14 which he had a fresh recollection. This is literally a compilation of
15 the OTP taken out of the context, that is, fragments taken out of the
16 context, and they serve to delude the witness into believing that
17 something is the way it was not.
18 The question was about the reports that supposedly went to
19 Mr. Zupljanin, and this is a -- the essence of my objection. The OTP is
20 trying to introduce through the back door the assertion that this is
21 immediate knowledge about Mr. Zupljanin's behaviour. When the witness
22 says that he informed Mr. Zupljanin, sometimes he means that informed him
23 directly, sometimes he means that he wrote reports. And the OTP is
24 trying to elicit the answers that are suitable to them.
25 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. -- Ms. Korner, Mr. Krgovic, I admit that in
2 terms of my own education in the procedure of this Tribunal the meaning
3 of contemporaneity has had to be expanded. Nevertheless, the -- the
4 issues which you identify, to the extent that it creates a problem, I
5 would have thought would have been -- could be dealt with by you in
6 cross-examination. And there the matter should end.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say this is the second time,
8 first of all, none of this should have been said in front of the witness.
9 Your Honours, if it comes to it, we may have to inform Your Honours what
10 happened at the proofing session. However, the point is that very have
11 available for Your Honours to see the taped records of the interviews
12 that were conducted with this witness so that Your Honours can see that
13 contrary to the suggestion that is constantly being made by Mr. Krgovic
14 that we are putting words into the mouth of this witness, these are words
15 that he himself used during the course of the interview in response to
16 open questions.
17 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Could we move on, please.
18 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. But, please, I do apologise for
19 the form of my question. But since we're only dealing here with an
20 answer he gave and then a qualification he gave after it, can he please
21 try to refresh his recollection and see if his recollection is stronger.
22 That was the point of my question, is to see whether he could give more
23 of a definitive answer after he looked at his report. I did not mean to
24 in any way suggest to him that he was not telling the truth or anything
25 to that regard.
1 JUDGE HALL: I didn't have that impression, Mr. Olmsted.
2 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Radulovic, I apologise for all of this back and forth.
4 You said that you informed Zupljanin but then -- I think you
5 commented that you weren't quite sure. Could you take a look at your
6 written statement at paragraph 156.
7 And if could you just read that to yourself; and after you're
8 done, I will just ask you the question again.
9 A. Yes, I can.
10 Q. Very good. Having reviewed this paragraph, does that refresh
11 your recollection whether you had informed Mr. Zupljanin about what you
12 had learned about the Koricanske Stene incident as well as everything
13 else that you had learned about what was going on after it?
14 A. I remember that I spoke to Mr. Stojan Zupljanin about
15 Simo Drljaca, and it's exactly as it says in my shortened statement.
16 Stojan Zupljanin said to me that Simo Drljaca had great influence in the
17 Prijedor area and that he had a good standing with the politicians and
18 the army; also, that any involvement of his, namely, the CSB of
19 Banja Luka, along the lines that we suggested, could result in problems
20 in Prijedor. That is, undesirable consequences.
21 Having read this, I would now say that my statement referred to
22 the overall situation in and around Prijedor; of course, also, with
23 regard to Koricanske Stene. But I couldn't say in front of this
24 Trial Chamber what exactly it was that Stojan Zupljanin answered to me
25 with regard to Koricanske Stene specifically, or, to put it this way,
1 after the massacre at Koricanske Stene. I think that he spoke about the
2 overall situation regarding Simo Drljaca and Prijedor.
3 MR. OLMSTED: May the document that's before us be tendered into
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1379, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Radulovic, before we move on to something
8 else, which I think the Prosecution was aiming to do, I'd like to ask you
9 if any investigation of the Koricanske Stene incident was -- was ever
11 I mean, you told us that there was a team established to remove
12 the bodies from the scene, and -- and so my question is: Was that it?
13 Did anything happen later on to identify the perpetrators and -- and have
14 them prosecuted or ... or was that the end of the story?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Briefly, Mr. Vukovic, who contacted
16 the so-called sanitisation of the area, was a member of civilian
17 authorities, as far as I know. He was chief of civil protection in
18 Skender Vakuf municipality. Together with the assistance of the police
19 from Skender Vakuf and some workers or those who had been mobilised into
20 civilian defence, he removed those bodies.
21 As for the identification of persons who committed the crime,
22 Your Honours, each individual's was established when it comes to the
23 workers of the public security service, as well as those who were present
24 but were not workers of the SJB. By this I mean drivers who drove buses
25 and trucks that had brought Bosniaks to the execution site.
1 There were even some individuals who were members of the
2 Army of Republika Srpska whose identity was established as well. I know
3 this for a fact because I saw the dispatch in which the minister of the
4 interior of Republika Srpska - at the time it was Mico Stanisic - ordered
5 to conduct an investigation, to conduct interviewing, and to bring to
6 responsibility those who were responsible.
7 I also know for a fact that someone on behalf of the police
8 station in Prijedor replied along the lines that all of those who were
9 present at Koricanske Stene and who were members of the public security
10 service were sent somewhere to the front line. I think to the area near
11 Han Pijesak, Han Kolo [phoen], around that area. And that since they
12 were now at the front line, it was impossible to get in touch with them
13 and bring them in for questioning.
14 This is all I know about the steps that were taken. But as far
15 as I know - and I know this with rather great certainty - during the war,
16 no proceedings were instituted by police against those people who had
17 committed that -- that crime and who belonged to the public security in
18 the sense of establishing their criminal responsibility, disciplinary
19 responsibility, or any other sort of responsibility.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: So, if I understand you correctly, the minister,
21 Mico Stanisic, ordered that the perpetrators be brought to justice; is
22 that correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly so. And I saw that in
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: And despite the minister's order, the only thing
1 that happened was that the perpetrators was discharged from their police
2 duties and sent to the front line; is that correct?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that they were
4 discharged. They were simply sent to the front line as members of police
5 force. So no proceedings were launched against them in order to
6 terminate their employment, as far as I know.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you know if they returned to Skender Vakuf?
8 Or to the places that they came from?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They belonged to the
10 Prijedor Police Station. I know that most of them were returned back to
11 the service, to police force in Prijedor. And some of them, to my
12 knowledge, work there in Prijedor to this day.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.
14 MR. OLMSTED: May we look at 65 ter 543.
15 Q. And, Mr. Radulovic, if you can take a look at this. Is this the
16 order from Mr. Stanisic that you're referring to about the
17 Koricanske Stene killings?
18 And it's in the middle of the page. I know the order -- this is
19 an 11 September 1992 dispatch and it starts out with something from the
20 chief of the CSB, but then, below that, there is something from
21 Minister Stanisic.
22 Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, yes. That's what I saw. And as far as I know, this is not
24 the only document I saw pertaining to this events at the level of
25 communication between the ministry and the CSB and Prijedor.
1 As far as I know, there were some additional requests sent out by
2 the minister and the ministry relating to the task of identifying and
3 prosecuting those who had participated in the massacre.
4 MR. OLMSTED: May this document be admitted into evidence.
5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1380.
7 MR. OLMSTED: Can we have on the screen 65 ter 2839. But this is
8 subject to protective measures, so if we could do it in private session.
9 JUDGE HALL: We move into private session.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 10899-10902 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 MR. OLMSTED:
17 Q. Mr. Radulovic, is this one of your team's reports?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you could just take a read of the document. It's a very short
21 Oh we can -- [Microphone not activated]
22 A. "We hereby confirm that Bozovic and his group are being
23 active" --
24 Shall I continue?
25 Q. Actually I just meant for you to read it to yourself. I just
1 want to ask you some questions about --
2 A. [In English] Okay.
3 Q. It's a report dated 3 July 1992
4 that Radojica Bozovic or Radomir Bozovic - whichever his first name
5 was - and his group were active in coordinated fashion linked up to the
6 RS MUP and your centre? How were you able to confirm that?
7 A. Very simply. I had three conversations with Radojica Bozovic.
8 One of them took place at the Borija mount, the second one in Teslic, and
9 the third one in Doboj. Or, rather, the first one was in Doboj, and then
10 at Mount Borija
11 I personally met Radojica Bozovic or, rather, I personally told
12 Radojica Bozovic that was what was happening in Doboj, what was being
13 done by local criminals, were very often attributed to him and the
14 Red Berets members. And I informed the MUP of Serbia about it.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I want to keep on topic of
16 my question. I think you mentioned this earlier in your testimony, your
17 conversations with Mr. Bozovic. Can I confirm that it was from
18 Mr. Bozovic yourself that you were able to establish this link between
19 him and the RS MUP, that they were coordinating their activities?
20 A. Yes, I can because I know that the Doboj CSB headed by
21 Andrija Bjelosevic was in contact with the group of Radojica Bozovic, and
22 Bozovic actually worked on training with the knowledge and consent of
23 Andrija Bjelosevic.
24 Q. May we have on the screen 65 ter 2836.
25 MR. OLMSTED: I see it's break time. Maybe we should take a
1 break here then.
2 JUDGE HALL: We'd resume in 20 minutes.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry, just for the purposes of
7 transcript, on page 30, line 2, I said I withdraw my "intervention" not
8 "interrogation." Thank you very much.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MR. OLMSTED:
11 Q. Mr. Radulovic, what we have in front of us is 65 ter 2836. It's
12 a report dated 26 June 1992
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. OLMSTED: Unless Your Honours have any questions regarding
15 it, I will seek to tender it into evidence.
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1382 Your Honours.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Radulovic -- sorry.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
21 MR. OLMSTED:
22 Q. Mr. Radulovic, yesterday you mentioned two Bosnian Croat police
23 officers who were among the victims of the Banja Luka Special Police
24 Detachment and Red Berets in Doboj in 1992. What about the former deputy
25 chief of SNB, Mato Krzic; did anything happen to him?
1 MR. KRGOVIC: I object to that. It's mis -- misleading. He
2 didn't mention that there was a victim committing a crime by the
3 Banja Luka Special Unit.
4 MR. OLMSTED: Yesterday he did mention two names. I can look
5 them up, if it is necessary. But he did mention two individuals; Garic
6 and -- there was another one that I can't recall.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, his name but not who committed the crime, that
8 it was the special unit.
9 MR. OLMSTED: Well, then we'll clarify that matter very quickly.
10 Q. Mr. Radulovic, yesterday you mentioned two Bosnian Croat police
11 officers who were victims in 1992 of what was happening in Doboj. Can
12 you tell us who were the perpetrators of the crimes that were against
14 A. They were members of paramilitary formations active in the area
15 of Doboj. I can tell you the names of these paramilitary or para-police
16 formations, but I never did say that these two persons were victims of
17 the actions of the workers of the special detachment from Banja Luka.
18 These gentlemen were Mr. Karlo Grgic who was the commander of the
19 police station in Doboj; he was killed. And Dr. Ilija Tipura, former
20 chief of the CSB in Doboj, who died after he was mistreated. And
21 Karlo Grgic was killed. These men weren't the only victims.
22 Q. And --
23 A. I knew the two men really well.
24 Q. And what about Mato Krzic? Did anything happen to him?
25 A. Yes. Mato Krizic, yes, Krizic, he was arrested. He was under
1 surveillance of the National Security Service employment. They started
2 interrogating him, they mistreated him, and that was something that
3 prompted us to ask the chief of the CSB at the time to take all measures
4 necessary to protect our former employees of other ethnicities, all in
5 order to ensure that they can leave the area of Banja Luka if they
6 wished. And it was done that way, this -- the Milos Group felt obliged
7 to assist our former employees to leave Banja Luka if they wished to.
8 Q. You mentioned that you knew who the perpetrators of these crimes
9 against these former police officers were. Could you provide us who they
11 A. I can tell to which groups the perpetrators belonged. I cannot
12 give you the names of actual individuals who committed all these acts.
13 But I can tell you which groups did so.
14 In Doboj, there were, according to my information, five to six
15 criminal groups. Public knew about them. Some of the members of these
16 groups have been tried for the war crimes they committed.
17 Q. Did those groups include the Red Berets?
18 A. No. I do not have information that members of the Red Berets
19 were involved in eliminating either our former employees of other
20 ethnicities. I have information about Red Berets but the Red Berets from
22 So these Red Berets were in Doboj to provide training. But if
23 you are talking about the Red Berets from Doboj, yes, then you're right,
24 these were the members of Red Beret on the local level, from Doboj, who
25 wanted to have people identify them with this group of Red Berets from
2 Q. I want to clarify your last answer.
3 You mention the Red Berets. Did this Red Beret organisation
4 include both persons from Serbia
5 A. Let me repeat: Within Doboj, there were Red Berets, people who
6 called themselves Red Berets because they wore just these red hats,
7 imitating the Red Berets from Belgrade
8 Red Berets committed crimes in the area of Doboj; and our group,
9 Milos Group, had information confirming that they were also involved in
10 eliminations of people. I mentioned two crimes, two killings, that
11 involved two of our former employees, Karlo Grgic and Ilija Tipura.
12 Q. During May 1992, were non-Serbs being arrested and brought to the
13 CSB Doboj building?
14 A. Yes, they were. Unfortunately, I must say that members of a unit
15 called special unit of the CSB also took part in bringing people in.
16 This unit was engaged there, I assume, on a basis of some kind of
17 arrangement that they were sent there because, possibly, it was of
18 strategic importance for them to be there instead of being in Banja Luka
19 I don't know about that. But we did notice members of this special
20 detachment from Banja Luka who committed crimes together with members of
21 these criminal groups and organisations of the local nature.
22 Q. You said: Unfortunately there was a special unit, the CSB
23 Banja Luka Special Police Detachment, at the CSB building, bringing
24 non-Serbs there after their arrest.
25 Why do you say "unfortunately"? What happened to these non-Serbs
1 once they were at the CSB building?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, what other term should I have used instead of
3 "unfortunately"? What I'm saying is that I am sorry that people from the
4 CSB were committing such things, people who had worked in the same CSB as
5 I did. That's why I said "unfortunately" because these people were
6 responsible for horrendous crimes, primarily physical mistreatment, let
7 alone crimes that involved stealing valuables from those who were not of
8 Serb ethnicity.
9 During the days of their withdrawal from Doboj, they were taking
10 out items stolen, and it took them days to do it. There were cars and
11 such. They also looted shops and storage facilities and so on and so
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's fine. Let's get back
14 on -- to my question.
15 Besides members of the CSB Special Police Detachment, were any
16 other persons associated with the police, state security or public
17 security, bringing non-Serbs to the CSB building?
18 A. Members of the national security and public security service from
19 Banja Luka who were assigned to assist the Doboj service. What I know is
20 that the employees of the National Security Service did not take part in
21 bringing in people. They only conducted interviews. I do know that they
22 reacted to the condition of the people being brought in. Quite -- they
23 made quite a lot of noise about it because these people were in terrible
24 states. An investigation was carried out for several days, especially in
25 relation to Mr. Grgic and Mr. Tipura because these people had been
1 employees of the security service. I personally believed that these
2 people need to be protected, that they need to be assisted, and that was
3 why I asked --
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
5 A. -- for them to be assisted. And I would like to correct
6 something. It's not "Grgic." I said "Krizic," "Mato Krizic."
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. But please, I want you to focus on my
8 questions because I do have very much limited time now.
9 Is what about Slobodan Karagic? Was he bringing anyone to the
10 CSB Doboj building -- any non-Serbs to the CSB Doboj building?
11 A. Slobodan Karagic, you mean?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was he doing with the non-Serbs he brought to the CSB
16 A. He and the likes of him involved in mistreatment of these people,
17 and usually the victims of such mistreatment would be passed on to people
18 from national security for an interview.
19 Q. Slobodan Karagic, what position did he have within the MUP?
20 A. As far as I know, he was in possession of an ID document of the
21 National Security Service. I know that because my group had arrested him
22 on one occasion, and we found among his possession this official ID, and
23 I even remember who signed this ID. It was signed by Milan Savic.
24 Milan Savic was, at the time, deputy chief of the security service in
25 Doboj. In other words, deputy to Andrija Bjelosevic.
1 Q. You mentioned Milan Savic. During this May time-period, was he
2 involved there arresting non-Serbs and bringing them to the CSB building
3 for interrogation?
4 A. No. He was at a higher level, you see, he managed -- because
5 prior to the war, he had been a driver, so he drove really fast and
6 reached the position of the deputy chief of the security service. He was
7 a big boss. It was more difficult to reach him than it was for the
8 people who fought in the Second World War to storm a bunker.
9 Q. I would like to ask a few questions now concerning the
10 CSB Banja Luka Special Police Detachment and its activities in
11 Kotor Varos.
12 Can you tell us for how long did the detachment operate in
13 Kotor Varos?
14 A. I think for about 20 to 30 days.
15 Q. And who was leading the detachment -- the detachment during this
17 A. Ljuban Ecim.
18 Q. And while the detachment was in Kotor Varos, where were they
20 A. They were based in the premises of a company, timber company. I
21 can't remember the name of this company for timber processing.
22 Q. Was that also known as the sawmill?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what intelligence information did you receive about any
25 crimes committed by this detachment, in particular at the sawmill?
1 A. In a nutshell, they committed things that were committed in other
2 area; physical mistreatment, killing of people even, looting.
3 If you are interested in what they did in the sawmill; namely, we
4 received information that they were bringing in women of Bosniak and
5 Croat ethnicity and then raped them.
6 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that you talked with Mr. Zupljanin about
7 the behaviour of the detachment members in Kotor Varos. Did you also
8 report these rapes to him?
9 A. I talked to him, and I told you already that Mr. Zupljanin was
10 concerned. I don't think he received such information only from me.
11 From this point in time, I can say that I never covered up anything or
12 concealed anything, and I don't see why I wouldn't have told him about
14 Q. Do you recall whether he said anything to minimise your reports
15 in any way?
16 A. Most often, during our conversations, and we didn't have that
17 many opportunities to talk, he would always use the same comment: Well,
18 it's wartime. Such things happen. Those were his comments. I cannot
19 quote literally every word of his. I can't even repeat my own words.
20 This was 20 years ago.
21 But I do know he had been in Kotor Varos area, that he received
22 complete information not only from me but also from the chief Savo Tepic,
23 and I believe he also received a complete information, although a little
24 bit belatedly, from an operative of ours, Zdravko, who was together with
25 Pejic [as interpreted] at the time when the detachment was there. The
1 situation in Kotor Varos was rather difficult. It was not only my
2 qualification of the situation but also by the others who reported during
3 that period.
4 Q. While the detachment was --
5 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Again, an intervention in the
6 transcript. I believe the witness gave the name of the operative that --
7 Zdravko Pejic. Yes.
8 MR. OLMSTED:
9 Q. MR. --
10 MR. ZECEVIC: If this can be clarified.
11 MR. OLMSTED:
12 Q. Mr. Radulovic, you just heard what my learned friend raised. Is
13 the name of one of the operatives Zdravko Pejic?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. I see mention only of chief Savo Tepic,
15 but I also mentioned Zdravko Pejic who was an active employee of the
16 National Security Service who was, according to establishment, chief of
17 the wartime department of National Security Service in Kotor Varos. That
18 was his full title.
19 Q. You mentioned -- -
20 MR. KRGOVIC: I apologise, because in this -- in his previous
21 response missing is time-frame when the report by Zdravko Pejic was
23 MR. OLMSTED: Why don't you -- I don't --
24 MR. KRGOVIC: He mentioned time-frame, but it's not recorded.
25 MR. OLMSTED:
1 Q. Mr. Radulovic, did you mention the time frame in which this
2 report by Mr. Pejic was submitted? Do you recall when that was?
3 A. I remember well having a conversation with Zdravko Pejic in
4 relation to events in Kotor Varos, and, as a colleague, I asked him why
5 hadn't he informed the service about it, referring to the
6 National Security Service and the chief Stojan Zupljanin. I remember
7 well; he responded, You know what they're like. And also cursed. Among
8 other things, he also said it would be good if you do it. I don't know
9 why he passed the hot potato to me, and I informed about information I
10 received not only from him but from others, the relevant people, and I
11 also know that immediately after that, he drafted a report and that only
12 after that Stojan Zupljanin went to Kotor Varos in relation to these
13 events. And then I also know there was some meeting held at the police
14 station in Kotor Varos, and that's why I'm saying that it was not timely,
15 his report to Stojan Zupljanin and the leadership of the service, because
16 he had had such information prior to me.
17 Q. Would this -- would these reports have been filed in the summer
18 of 1992?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. You mentioned that when you had this information with Pejic he
21 said, You know what they are like, when you asked him why hasn't he filed
22 his reports with Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Kesic. Did you understand what he
23 meant by "you know what they are like"?
24 A. Yes, of course, I understood. Some members of the special
25 detachments were feared by everyone. They were so powerful that even our
1 chiefs were afraid of them. They will not admit that to you, but, yes,
2 they were afraid. I was also afraid. I -- mostly because of the
3 children, because of the threats, and their actions in relation to me and
4 my colleagues.
5 Q. Well, I want to focus on that -- my question though. You asked
6 Mr. Pejic why he hadn't filed his reports with Mr. Zupljanin and
7 Mr. Kesic and he responded, "You know what they are like."
8 He was -- are you saying that he was referring to the special
9 police detachment; or is he referring to Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Kesic?
10 A. No, no. He was referring to the special police detachment when
11 he said "you know what they are like."
12 He meant that they would be ready to avenge themselves on him.
13 Q. Now I understand, thank you. Did your intelligence team gather
14 any information concerning what happened to the non-Serb civilian
15 populations in two villages, Vrbanjci and Dabovici [sic], in the summer
16 of 1992?
17 A. I believe I understood your question even though you
18 mispronounced the name of the second village.
19 We wrote about it. We wrote about it, sir. About the problem
20 and what was happening in that area, what kind of crimes were being
21 committed. But we didn't conduct individual investigations to find out
22 who had committed it and which individuals were involved. There was much
23 crime, so it was difficult for a small group to be everywhere and clarify
24 everything to the full. It wasn't our duty, nor were we able to do it.
25 Q. Do you recall whether the special police detachment was involved
1 in the attacks on those two villages? And I'll repeat them: Vrbanjici
2 and Dabovci.
3 Were they involved --
4 A. [No interpretation]
5 Q. Wait until I ask. There's -- we're overlapping.
6 Were they involved in those two attacks?
7 A. I apologise for interrupting. I thought that you had finished.
8 I said, Yes. My answer is indeed affirmative. Yes, they did take part
9 in the attack on those villages.
10 Q. And what happened to the non-Serb population in those villages?
11 A. Most all of them were expelled in various ways. Some of them
12 went to Bosniak-controlled territory on their own; some went in groups,
13 because they were let go; but some also came to harm.
14 Q. And when you say "came to harm," does that mean they were killed
15 or beaten? What happened to them?
16 A. I meant the former. They lost their lives.
17 Q. And you included all this information in the reports you
18 submitted to your superiors?
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, everything can be found in my reports. That is
20 why I bear no moral or other responsibility for repeating it today. I
21 think it was much less safe to say that in 1992 because of my personal
22 safety and the safety of my family than it is today.
23 I stated everything I knew about these events in my reports.
24 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 65 ter 10199.
25 Q. This is an Official Note dated 3 November 1992 pertaining to the
1 situation in the Vecici area of Kotor Varos, and it contains your last
2 name at the top of it, amongst your other members of your group.
3 Is this one of your reports?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. What information did you receive from your intelligence sources
6 regarding negotiations with the Bosniaks in Vecici for their safe passage
7 out of Kotor Varos?
8 A. A group of 500 to 700 armed members of the SDA safely reached
9 Bosniak-controlled territory. We even had information that they were --
10 they had their personal weapons on them.
11 We also had other information that is not contained in this
12 report because it seemed to suggest that these people had negotiated
13 their departure and paid large amounts of money to be let go. We didn't
14 mention that in the report because that would point to a possible
15 involvement of our superiors in those negotiations.
16 So we didn't want to put a noose around our own necks.
17 Q. According to your sources, who participated in the negotiations
18 amongst your superiors?
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I know that Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel - I'm
20 not sure of his rank at the time - Peulic must have been involved. He
21 was a military officer. There were indications that Mr. Stojan Zupljanin
22 was also involved, and that's why we omitted to include this information.
23 But let me add you -- add this: We didn't keep completely silent
24 about it, because we submitted that to the bodies of military security,
25 the intelligence centre of the army headed by Branko Ratic of who we knew
1 that he was very close to President Karadzic. So we didn't keep that
2 information to ourselves after all. We passed it on, and we considered
3 that this route was safer than the regular route that information should
4 have been passed on.
5 Q. According to your intelligence information, what happened to
6 those Bosniaks who could not pay the fee to have safe passage from
7 Kotor Varos?
8 A. They stayed in the villages. These were mostly elderly people,
9 women, children, and their mistreatment continued.
10 A number of persons from that village was taken toward Siprag --
11 rather, Siprage; and before they reached that place, they were all
13 According to our operative intelligence, which can be seen, they
14 numbered about 70 people.
15 Q. You mentioned Siprage. Is that -- was that in relation to
17 A. Yes. It was done in the hamlet of Grabovica, but it is close to
18 the village of Siprage
19 Q. All right. I want to move, finally, to Teslic.
20 Can you tell us, How did you first come to hear about the
21 Mice Group, the first time that you learned that this group was being
23 A. I was in Doboj. I had an operative presence there. And on the
24 premises of the security services in Doboj, I met my -- I met people from
25 my town who I all knew by name. It was the then-chief of the
1 municipality, Nikola Perisic; then Predrag Markoscevic [phoen], a SUP
2 employee; then Marinko Djukic, another SUP employee; then Vid Stojanovic
3 from the TO; and there was Mr. Misic, whom I knew as a politically active
4 man in the Teslic municipality. I didn't know why they were there, so I
5 asked them about it. And they replied to me rather officiously that they
6 were there to apply for assistance from Doboj because the situation in
7 Teslic, they said, was stale.
8 In Teslic there were many problems, so they had come to Doboj to
9 request assistance to make people aware that there was a war on and that
10 people had to behave as appropriate for wartime. That's what happened in
12 I didn't know then that the Mice Group would be sent there to
13 help them. I only learnt about that later, when they began to harass
14 Teslic. Savo and my brother, Nenad Radulovic, informed me of the events
15 in Teslic --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
17 A. -- and I passed on that information --
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry for interrupting. You
19 passed that information on to the CSB?
20 A. To the chief of national security, Kesic, through Vojin Bera.
21 But I mentioned Savo. I would like to add his last name, which
22 is Stanic.
23 Q. And I want to return to that in a second. But just to clarify
24 your answer with regard to this meeting you had in Doboj or the -- this
25 encounter you had in Doboj with Nikola Perisic. Just to clarify, was
1 that at the CSB Doboj building?
2 A. That's correct. In the lobby on the upper floor - it's a rather
3 spacious lobby - it is still there, only the entrance is modernised. And
4 that's where I met them.
5 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many members of the Mice Group
6 came from CSB Doboj?
7 A. About 20. That was the first group that arrived.
8 Q. And who was the leader of this group from the CSB Doboj?
9 A. The leader of that group was not from the CSB of Doboj. He was a
10 member of military security. I know that he had the rank of captain. I
11 can't remember his name now.
12 The Mice consisted of active-duty state security officers,
13 active-duty public security officers, reserve members of state security,
14 and a number of members of the VRS. I don't know whether they were from
15 the security organ or another operative unit. Among the active staff of
16 state security I saw, Culibrk; Dobrivoje is his first name. I had worked
17 with him earlier in the SDB of Doboj. I saw some staff of the SJB and
18 the SDB that I knew. I'm sorry to say that among them there were some
19 people who I had known as criminals, really bad criminals from Doboj and
20 the surrounding area.
21 Q. Were these the same individual who in May 1992 were mistreating
22 non-Serbs either at the CSB building or other places?
23 A. Yes. Among them, there were also these people.
24 Q. What was Milan Savic's role with regard to the Mice Group?
25 A. At first, I didn't know. I found out only after they'd been
1 arrested. I heard that he was actually the commander.
2 Q. And where were the Mice Group members based in Teslic?
3 A. At several locations: One was the Barici hamlet, about 5
4 kilometres from Teslic. Then there was the Kardijal Hotel, 2 kilometres
5 from Teslic. And a number found accommodation with their lovers. I
6 remember that well because we arrested them all at those places.
7 Q. Before the Mice Group arrived Teslic, were there any armed
8 conflicts going on in the municipality?
9 A. But before I reply to this question, when I say "Barici,"
10 actually, it should be "Dzulic." These are close to -- these places are
11 close to each other. They were at the school in Dzulic.
12 And now, if I may reply to your question.
13 Q. Yes. My question was: Before the Mice Group arrived Teslic,
14 were there any armed conflicts going on in the municipality?
15 A. There were no major armed conflicts. But there were three spots
16 where Serbs did not go, nor did Croats leave those places. Stenjak,
17 Ruzevic, as well as Slatina and Komusina. As earlier as 1991, Slatina
18 and Komusina were the places where paramilitary units started arming
19 themselves. They were rather well armed. And they called themselves
20 Ustashas. At Stenjak, a group of extreme Bosniaks were rather
21 well-armed. And at Ruzevic also, a group of Bosniaks was rather
22 well-armed, and they even had some artillery.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, we went from the people of Teslic
24 coming to Doboj to ask for assistance to the arrival of the Mice Group in
25 Teslic. My question is: Is there a link between the two? In other
1 words, was the arrival of the Mice Group the assistance -- the answer to
2 the question of assistance? Was the Mice Group sent in to Teslic to
3 assist the Teslic authorities?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you understood
5 correctly. That is the assistance the representatives from Teslic had
6 applied for. So the arrival of the the Mice was the assistance provided
7 to them.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MR. OLMSTED:
10 Q. In Teslic, were the Serbs also arming themselves?
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. You mentioned earlier that you learned about what the Mice Group
13 were doing in Teslic from Savo Stanic and your brother. Do you recall
14 approximately when you received that information and then when you
15 reported it to Mr. Kesic?
16 A. I received information around mid-June. I immediately informed
17 Mr. Kesic. Then, I did not know that members of the Mice Group had
18 killed anybody. I only knew that they had been taking people in; they
19 had mistreated people; that they imposed a curfew from 8.00 a.m. til
20 10.00; that after that nobody was allowed to stay in the open; that all
21 lights must be dimmed, which immediately made it clear to me that they
22 didn't want witnesses, if people were not allowed to switch lights on.
23 So the Mice were doing all sorts of things but didn't want people
24 to witness that. And that's why they wanted all windows closed and the
25 blinds down in midday
1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Just for the sake of the clarity of the
2 transcript, the witness was talking about the -- the drapes being drawn
3 during the day-time and not -- he was not talking about the light. I
4 mean, that was his answer. So if this can be clarified.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Makes sense.
6 MR. OLMSTED: I think that is logical without going into it
8 Q. How did -- do you recall how Mr. Kesic reacted to the information
9 that you first provided regarding the Mice Group in Teslic, in mid-June?
10 A. Yes, I remember. He reacted rather casually. He said, What do
11 we care? That -- that's a problem for the people in Doboj. Let's not
12 interfere. He said something along these lines. As I was from Teslic,
13 he may have thought that I was more interested in this area than I would
14 have been in another.
15 Q. Do you recall, did you also provide, at this time, in the middle
16 of June, information to Mr. Zupljanin about what was going on in Teslic
17 with the Mice Group?
18 A. Yes.
19 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
20 MR. OLMSTED:
21 Q. Please continue.
22 A. After receiving information from Savo Stanic and my brother, I
23 sent two operatives from the Milos Group to the Teslic area. I gave them
24 the names of the persons to talk to about the events in Teslic, and I
25 told them to inform me about what was really going on in Teslic as soon
1 as possible.
2 I must say that only Goran Sajinovic knew who our collaborators
3 were. Apart from him, nobody else from the group knew who our
4 collaborators or our operative connections were, but everybody knew our
5 friendly connections.
6 I gave enough information about our collaborators, and he called
7 me in the afternoon hours and told me -- he was rather upset. He told
8 me, Boss, the situation is much more serious than we had thought. He
9 was, of course, joking. He never called me Boss except in serious
11 And I said, All right. Come immediately and inform me. And they
12 did. We wrote a report. And soon after that, a day or two may have
13 passed, I can't remember now, the chief of the municipality,
14 Nikola Perisic, came to see me in person.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... let me stop you because I
16 want to go into that, but I want you to answer my question.
17 And this is around the time-period of mid-June 1992. You
18 mentioned that you informed Mr. Kesic about what the Mice Group was doing
19 in Teslic at that time. And my question was: Did you also inform
20 Mr. Zupljanin at that time?
21 And we'll talk about your meeting with Perisic later.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Well --
24 A. I did not inform Stojan Zupljanin after receiving the first
25 information because it was only the initial operative information. But I
1 did inform him later, and I can tell you about his reaction.
2 Q. I'll tell you -- we'll go into that maybe in a second. But
3 perhaps to refresh your recollection you could look at paragraph 106 of
4 your statement.
5 And just read it to yourself; do not read it aloud.
6 A. I've read it.
7 Q. And I'm particularly interested in the last sentence of that
9 Having read that, does that refresh your recollection whether you
10 informed Mr. Zupljanin before -- well, around this time-period, mid-June,
11 about the Mice Group in Teslic?
12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, even without propping my memory I see what --
13 what this says.
14 I remember, however, what I said. The first day, I directly
15 informed Stojan Zupljanin about it. On the same day, he gave approval to
16 establish a group to passivise these renegades in Teslic. It happened on
17 the same day in the afternoon or evening hours, and that was the order
18 and the decision of Stojan Zupljanin.
19 Q. Just hold on there for a second.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. OLMSTED: Okay. Yeah, just for the record, I just wanted to
22 point on line [sic] 51, 9, it's the first "day," not the first "say."
23 Q. And Mr. Zupljanin -- I apologise. Mr. Radulovic, we're going to
24 talk about your meeting with Zupljanin which was attended by Mr. Perisic
25 in a second. I just wanted you to read that paragraph and see if that
1 refreshed your recollection that you informed Mr. Zupljanin prior to that
2 meeting with Perisic and Zupljanin about the Mice Group. If it didn't,
3 that's fine.
4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, regardless of how often you say, No, no, no,
5 before that meeting, on that same day, I informed Stojan Zupljanin about
6 the fact that the representatives from Teslic wanted to meet with him and
7 explain the situation to him.
8 And I remember very well that on that day Mr. Zupljanin attended
9 the meeting of the Municipal Assembly. And I know that I asked him to
10 come out of the meeting, and he did come out, and he told me verbatim to
11 organise that meeting in the afternoon hours in the building of the
12 security services in Banja Luka. He basically shifted to me the entire
13 organisation of that meeting.
14 Q. Thank you. And, please, please, I know this is -- you want to
15 give a lot of information about this, but my question -- I think you did
16 answer, the answer was, No, that you don't recall providing him
17 information prior to that date, and that's fine.
18 My next question for you --
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, before we get too far off, I'm looking
20 at the transcript, line 8, page 51, and I need clarification as to
21 whether I correctly heard the witness say that the -- Zupljanin gave
22 approval to stabilise a group to "pacify" the renegades in Teslic.
23 MR. OLMSTED:
24 Q. Mr. Radulovic, did you hear what Judge Hall asked? Is that a
25 correct statement of what happened?
1 A. Yes. But it's not the word pacify that I used. I received
2 consent -- or, rather, order, not a consent or approval but an order from
3 Stojan Zupljanin. And that was one of the first orders that he gave me,
4 where he asked that they be arrested, "arrested," not "pacified."
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
6 MR. OLMSTED:
7 Q. Now, I want -- this meeting that you -- that Mr. Perisic
8 attended, could you tell us who else attended this meeting with
9 Mr. Zupljanin?
10 And, please, just list their names.
11 A. You don't need their positions.
12 So there was Nedeljko Kesic, there was Branko Peric,
13 Nenad Kovacevic, Vitomir Popovic, Milan Stevilovic, Stevan Markovic,
14 Goran Sajinovic, I was there. And I don't remember anybody else being
16 Q. Whose idea was it to have prosecutors --
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. I believe the witness says --
18 said, 53, line 3, Branko "Peric" not "Perisic."
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branko Peric, Nikola Perisic.
20 MR. OLMSTED: And we got the rest.
21 Q. Whose idea was it to have prosecutors and judges present at this
23 A. To be quite frank, I suggested to Nikola Perisic that he
24 shouldn't be alone there but that there should be the prosecutor present
25 as well as the president of the municipal or basic court in Teslic.
1 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Zupljanin gave you responsibility --
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, if are you about to move on to
3 something else, perhaps we should take the break at this point. It's
4 just about that time.
5 We alert counsel that we are in the process of making inquiries,
6 looking at the original estimates of time that you were given, and if my
7 math is correct, Mr. Olmsted should have exhausted his eight hours by
8 now. But looking at what had been indicated for cross-examination by the
9 other side, how much time is available tomorrow, it doesn't seem as if
10 it's going to be possible to complete this witness tomorrow.
11 And we are inquiring into the possibility of an extra session
12 this afternoon and/or tomorrow afternoon, but I'm not in position to
13 confirm that availability at this point.
14 But, the -- of course, if the estimates of time given by the
15 Defence, in light of what has happened, are now more than they need, then
16 we needn't concern ourselves with this.
17 But we don't need an answer now, Mr. Zecevic. We are at the
18 break. You can think about it and let us know.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, in fact, I was about to raise it
20 because of witnesses next week. We brought up, as I said to Your
21 Honours, subject to Your Honours' ruling on Mr. Riedlmayer - he's the
22 witness, in fact, we thought Tuesday - we had estimated that with the
23 length of cross-examination as well as examination-in-chief,
24 Mr. Radulovic would certainly go into Monday. No question about that.
25 But we did bring up a further -- or were going to bring up a
1 further witness, although Your Honours aren't sitting on Friday, just a
2 short 92 ter witness, but if Mr. Radulovic is likely to continue into
3 Tuesday, well then there's no need for that witness to attend. So
4 obviously the timing is something of importance because we need to stop
5 that final witness being brought up.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you.
7 We take the break now.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
11 JUDGE HALL: Before the witness is escorted back to the stand, we
12 understand that Mr. Zecevic wished to raise something.
13 But before he does, we could indicate that we have confirmed that
14 it is possible to -- for us to do an extra session on Monday afternoon,
15 which we are considering instead of today or tomorrow. Tomorrow is out.
16 The -- but Monday afternoon instead of this afternoon.
17 And secondly, having regard to what Ms. Korner had indicated, we
18 think that it would probably be visible for them not to bring in this
19 short witness that she had.
20 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to be as
22 brief as possible with regard to what I wished to inform the Chamber of.
23 If you remember, some time ago --
24 Can we go into private session, please.
25 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 10931-10933 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE HALL: You may have heard what would have passed between
11 the Court Officer and the Bench. Have you a half-hour left, Mr. Olmsted.
12 MR. OLMSTED: May I just beg the Trial Chamber to give me a
13 little bit more time. And here is why:
14 This witness has been very long-winded in his responses, and I
15 have done my best to keep him short. And I just want to get through
16 Teslic, and I just want to show that -- this video that you allowed us to
17 add to our exhibit list. And I think I can do it in hour.
18 So if I could have the rest of this session and, if necessary, a
19 little bit of time tomorrow, that would absolutely it. But I think I
20 might have a little bit of -- well, a bank of time from my last witness.
21 I think I saved about an hour and a half. And maybe I could cash that in
22 at this point. I apologise, but it's just been quite difficult.
23 JUDGE HALL: As I quipped the other day, this notion of the
24 "bank," I don't know where that originated, but it's not something that
25 we as the Bench buy into.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: 45 minutes, Mr. Olmsted.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 MR. OLMSTED:
5 Q. Mr. Radulovic, we're going to have to go at break-neck speed
6 right now to try to finish by the end of this session, so please excuse
7 me for skipping over a lot of parts that you might want to talk about.
8 Did Mr. Zupljanin provide you with in the instructions on how to
9 commit -- or how to conduct the operation against the Mice Group? Just
10 tell me if he did or he didn't.
11 A. He told me that they need to be arrested.
12 Q. And that's it?
13 A. You asked me to put it in the shortest form. I was ordered to
14 arrest them, that I must put myself at the head of this unit that
15 conducted the arrest, and file the criminal report. That was all taken
16 under this order.
17 Q. And how long after this meeting with Mr. Perisic and
18 Mr. Zupljanin did you conduct the operation?
19 A. In the morning, at 0400 hours, we started with the operation, and
20 the preparations were conducted in the course of the preceding night,
21 starting at Teslic.
22 Q. Before you conducted the operation, did you send any messages to
23 CSB Doboj concerning the Mice Group?
24 A. That was two or three days prior to the arrest. I told
25 Dobrivoje Culibrk, a person I knew from before, that they should pull out
1 of Teslic and unless they do so there would be a conflict. And when I
2 said a conflict, I said with me, but I meant the service.
3 Q. Did you tell him to inform anyone at the CSB Doboj within the
4 state security service to withdraw the Mice Group?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... who?
7 A. Dusan Zivkovic who was, at the time, chief of the State Security
8 Service in Doboj. I gave him a detailed explanation in relation to all
9 the acts committed by Mice, and Dobrivoje knew about it and what the
10 consequences will be.
11 Q. And what was the response that you received to your request that
12 the Mice Group should be withdrawn from Teslic?
13 A. The result was that additional 17 people joined this group, and I
14 would characterise them as professional killers.
15 Q. And who was leading that additional group?
16 A. Slobodan Karaga. Rather, Slobodan Karagic, aka Karaga. He was
17 somebody with a criminal record and a very terrible one, criminal record
18 from before the war.
19 Q. Now we're going skip ahead because we don't have time to -- after
20 you conducted the operation and arrested the members of the Mice Group.
21 Can you tell us, Did you release the non-Serb detainees at the detention
22 facilities after the operation? And just tell us if you did or didn't.
23 A. Yes, I did. All of them on one location. There was about 400 of
24 them; at the other, about 600; at the third, about 140. I can't remember
25 all the locations, but I released them all, and I apologised on behalf of
1 the Serbian People. I told them that it wasn't the Serbs or the
2 Serbian People who did that to them, but the Serbian scum. I used very
3 bad words when speaking about the people who were responsible.
4 Q. Were any of these non-Serbs that you released were they involved
5 in organised armed resistance in Teslic?
6 A. To be honest, I didn't go into that issue. I knew majority of
7 the people. They knew me as well. And I believed I owe that to the
8 people who were brought in for no other reasons but for the names they
9 bore which were different than the names of those who brought them in.
10 Q. Now, on the day of the operation, did you meet Milan Savic?
11 A. Yes. He was arrested by members of the group I was at the head
12 of. I know that about 50.000 German marks or other currencies were found
13 on him, and then also some gold. All of it was seised from him. He was
14 at first arrested.
15 Q. Do you recall if you found on him in his possession any
16 identification cards from the CSB Doboj?
17 A. But, of course. All of them. All of them who were arrested, all
18 of them were in possession of the IDs, official IDs, issued by the
19 National Security Service, and all of them signed by Milan Savic the man
20 whom we arrested.
21 Q. After the operation against the Mice Group, how long did you
22 personally stay in Teslic?
23 A. For another month.
24 Q. After during this month, did you conduct an investigation into
25 the Mice Group? Just tell us if you did or didn't.
1 A. Yes, I did, detailed.
2 Q. During your investigation, while you were there in Teslic for a
3 month, did you receive any threats trying to make you discontinue that
4 investigation, originating from CSB Doboj?
5 A. Yes. Quite a number of threats from a number of people. And the
6 worst of them was by Mr. Stankovic who was a major at the time or may
7 have become a lieutenant-colonel. He came personally to Teslic. He had
8 his arm in a cast. One friend of mine helped him with that. And he came
9 and said that he would kill myself, all of us who took part in the
10 arrest, and our families, all of us who took part in the arrest of Mice.
11 Q. How about SNB Doboj chief Zivkovic? Did he issue any threats to
13 A. Yes. Sometime -- quite some time after the events.
14 Q. In 1992?
15 A. Yes, in 1992. But it -- he kept on making them for quite a long
17 Q. During your investigation, did you learn of any mass graves where
18 the non-Serb victims of the Mice Group were buried?
19 A. Yes. We found out about two such locations. According to our
20 information, one contained bodies of 20 people; and the other, bodies of
21 48 people. We had someone who was present at the scene who explained how
22 things came about, how the people were killed. And for the rest of the
23 victims, where they were buried in individual graves. It was a total of
24 58 person killed.
25 Q. Can you tell us just generally where in Teslic these mass graves
1 were located?
2 A. In the area of Mount Borija
3 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take look at what's been marked for
4 identification, P703.
5 And, correction, this has been -- this is not what I wanted.
6 Let's call up 65 ter 857.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. OLMSTED:
9 Q. Is this a letter, Mr. Radulovic, that you wrote to the CSB chief
10 in Banja Luka?
11 A. If I could see the following page and see my signature there
12 maybe, but I do remember the content. I'd still like to see the
14 MR. OLMSTED: Let's look at the second page quickly.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I drafted this.
16 MR. OLMSTED:
17 Q. Okay --
18 A. Why there's no signature, I don't know. But, yes, yes.
19 MR. OLMSTED: May that be admitted into evidence.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Well, I guess it's -- has it already been admitted.
22 Okay. That's been clarified; it's been admitted.
23 Can we please look at 65 ter 858.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry, can we just have the number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit P703, to which the counsel referred
1 to originally.
2 MR. OLMSTED: Here's another letter. It's dated 10 July 1992.
3 It's from you to CSB Banja Luka to the chief of the Security Services
4 Center personally.
5 Q. Is this - if we scroll down on the B/C/S - is this another letter
6 you wrote?
7 MR. OLMSTED: Let's go to page 2.
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 MR. OLMSTED: May this be admitted into evidence.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1383, Your Honours.
12 MR. OLMSTED:
13 Q. Mr. Radulovic, did Mr. Zupljanin ever respond to these letters?
14 A. I don't remember. As far as I remember, no, he did not.
15 Q. Do you recall, did -- did you ever have a conversation with
16 Mr. Zupljanin about these letters?
17 A. We had a conversation about the situation in Teslic in general,
18 the conditions in Teslic. We talked about insufficient information
19 gathered about the crimes, because, at the time, I was interested in
20 organising exhumations, post mortems, and forensic teams to do that, and
21 I asked for assistance, believing it was necessary. So, roughly
22 speaking, we had a discussion about what was contained in the written
23 reports as well.
24 Q. And what did he tell you?
25 A. I was told, roughly, that it's not the right time for that, that
1 there's no need for exhumations or forensic expertise. That's all I can
2 remember. I didn't get proper assistance from anybody of those whom I
3 had asked for this assistance, to have this issue resolved.
4 Based on several reports of mine, one can see that I sent to --
5 in to an applicant [as interpreted]. I wasn't requesting because I
6 realised that the level of cooperation following my requests wasn't
7 something that produced results, because I even asked Belgrade to assist.
8 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a look at 65 ter 887.
9 I apologise. It's 65 ter 877.
10 Q. Mr. Radulovic, do you recognise this article?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Just very generally, is it -- is it -- what it contains in
13 it about -- well, let me tell you -- put on record what it is.
14 It's an article from Slobodna Bosna about the Mice Group in
15 Teslic. It's dated 13 December 2001
16 Is the information contained in this article generally accurate?
17 A. No one from the newspaper ever interviewed me. What is stated in
18 the article - and I did have an opportunity to read the article - is
19 partially true, but it is mostly just arbitrary guess-work by the author,
20 because I never claimed that Njegos was at the head of the action or that
21 the murder of Bosniak was ordered by the person mentioned.
22 There are some other incorrect claims in here, but as far as the
23 harassment and mistreatment and killings of Bosniaks, yes, I can confirm
24 that that part is correct.
25 MR. OLMSTED: Let's turn to page 2 of the B/C/S; page 4 of the
2 Q. Now, on page 2 of the B/C/S, the article reports:
3 "As robbers'," referring to the Mice, "appetites grew and the
4 amount of available loot decreased, well-off Serbs also became targets."
5 It then describes a few instances of this and states that.
6 "... was when the time for action came, although the police and
7 judicial organs were quite aware what was going on in the town. Even
8 before that, Radovan Karadzic also received detailed information."
9 Can you verify whether that is accurate?
10 A. I already told you I wasn't interviewed by this journalist.
11 These are not my words, my authentic words.
12 This is something that was taken from a different interview with
13 me that was published in a newspaper called Nezavisne Novine. If you
14 make a comparison between the two articles, you will see that the article
15 in the newspaper before us is made as an arbitrary statement and
16 generalisations of some of the information I had and then making
17 conclusions that had nothing to do with my claims.
18 In other words, I wouldn't say -- I would say that when
19 journalist says that the local authorities in Teslic knew about the
20 crimes before Stojan Zupljanin, the president of the court, the
21 prosecutor, and the police in Teslic, they knew, even before Mices were
22 arrested, knew about the crimes in Teslic and that part, that part is
24 Q. What about the part that as their appetites grew an amount of
25 available loot decreased, well-off Serbs were also were targeted [sic].
1 Is that true?
2 A. That's another correct claim by the journalist, although it
3 wasn't something I had said.
4 Q. And just so you know, I'm not saying that these are something
5 that you said. I just want to verify the accuracy of this article.
6 If you reads further down the page, it says that:
7 "The arrested men," meaning the Mice, "were soon released and the
8 proceedings remained open until the present day."
9 Is that accurate?
10 A. Yes, that is absolutely accurate.
11 Q. And if we read a little bit further down, it states that:
12 "The members of the Doboj CSB were led by Milan Savic, the deputy
13 of Doboj CSB chief Andrija Bjelosevic, Savic was immediately released
14 from detention at the intervention of Bjelosevic and Stojan Zupljanin
15 even though a bag with 50.000 marks was found on him when he was
17 Is that accurate?
18 A. It is partially accurate. He was released on the same day, on
19 the day when the operation was concluded. On that day,
20 Andrija Bjelosevic came to the police station in Teslic, Stojan Zupljanin
21 was already there, and I was told that it would not be a good idea to
22 have the criminal report including the name of Milan Savic as somebody
23 involved in the incidents, and, therefore, I didn't include him in the
24 criminal report. As far as I can remember.
25 Q. So I want us to be very clear about this. You had a conversation
1 with Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Bjelosevic in which they said that you should
2 not charge Milan Savic?
3 A. I wouldn't put it that way. You're trying to make me say
4 something. But there was an office in which there were a dozen people at
5 the time. Among them, Stojan Zupljanin, Andrija Bjelosevic,
6 Dusan Zivkovic, Dusan Culibrk, and I believe that there was
7 Colonel Stevilovic also, people from Doboj. And there was a
8 communication among them, people were saying things, but Andrija and me
9 were not on good terms then. So whatever he said to me was an offence.
10 And when I tried to convince him of anything, to tell him what had
11 happened, he denied it. So I understood that the man wasn't well enough
13 So I can't really say now, but I do know that the CSB Doboj
14 executives demanded that Milan Savic not be included in the operative
15 investigation concerning his participation in that group's activities.
16 They explained to me it wouldn't be good because he was a member of the
17 service, like the other active-duty servicemen, so this could all be
18 connected to the service. And I believe that I said as much in one of my
19 interviews and gave a much more detailed explanation.
20 MR. OLMSTED: May this document be admitted into evidence.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, isn't the -- don't the answers the
22 witness has given remove one of the grounds for admissibility of an
23 article, namely its reliability?
24 You have asked him about portions of it which he has agreed with
25 and adopted, but the effect of his evidence as I understand it is that
1 the article taken as a whole is unreliable.
2 MR. OLMSTED: I'm not --
3 JUDGE HALL: As an item of evidence.
4 MR. OLMSTED: I'm not sure that's how I interpreted his
5 testimony, Your Honour. I think he said that there were bits of it that
6 were not accurate but that, you know, generally it was truthful about
7 what happened with the Mice Group. Maybe I can lay more foundation.
8 JUDGE HALL: And he has said that. That's as far as you need go.
9 MR. OLMSTED: Well, I'm only giving excerpts of the article, and
10 I'd like to have the whole article admitted into evidence.
11 JUDGE HALL: Well, that is exactly the observation that I have
12 made. What the witness's answer to your questions have been is that the
13 article taken as a whole is unreliable. There are portions of it
14 which -- with which he agrees and which he accepts as accurate, and you
15 having put those portions to him in -- in the form of specific questions,
16 he has answered them and thus adopted it.
17 But what he hasn't adopted in the other parts, he has said
18 something in which the Chamber cannot rely. So why should we accept it
19 as an item of evidence?
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, if I may be of assistance. The
21 witness actually said:
22 "... I did have an opportunity to read the article - is partially
23 true, but it is mostly just arbitrary guess-work by the author."
24 It's page 66, 18, so therefore --
25 MR. OLMSTED: You know what, it's -- I'm sorry for interrupting.
1 That's fine. We won't move to admit it. I have 15 minutes; I want to
2 move on.
3 Q. You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony at the beginning
4 of this week that criminal proceedings were initiated against you for
5 undermining the combat spirit of the Republika Srpska and spreading
6 brotherhood and unity by releasing non-Serbs from detention facilities.
7 Were these criminal -- was this criminal report a reaction to
8 your Mice Group operation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when was that criminal report filed?
11 A. In 1992.
12 Q. And who filed it?
13 A. The CSB of Doboj. The CSB of Doboj.
14 MR. OLMSTED: Let's take a quick look at 65 ter 860.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add: Not only was a
16 criminal report filed, but an indictment was also issued.
17 MR. OLMSTED:
18 Q. What we have in front of us is a report dated 13 July 1992. Is
19 this one of your team's reports?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It requests the replenishment of the reserve police force, and it
23 "It notes that their engagement in the reserve police would be
24 good for preventative reasons since individuals from this company or
25 their entire company had got out of control and became a paramilitary
2 Are you referring to members -- people who were working with the
3 Mice Group?
4 A. No. This is a group led by Second Lieutenant Jocic. Its status
5 was undefined. And before this operation, there was a -- the possibility
6 that these people would become our worse enemies. So we were able to
7 persuade Second-Lieutenant Jocic to side with us and assist us in
8 arresting the Mice.
9 They were rather young and brave and rather well trained, and I
10 thought that they should be placed under control so they don't become
12 Q. You state here that individuals from this company had -- have
13 gotten out of control. Can you tell us what they had been doing that got
14 them out of control? What kind of activities they were engaged in?
15 A. I said that this report was written to prevent them from getting
16 out of control. We knew the composition of this units -- unit, and we
17 knew it was headed by the former JNA officer, this man Jocic. We
18 established contact with him later. They were drafted to the VRS.
19 Q. Was your request granted by Mr. Zupljanin?
20 A. I withdrew before I could get any information about this group
21 joining the reserve or active police force.
22 MR. OLMSTED: May this be tendered into evidence.
23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1384, Your Honours.
25 MR. OLMSTED: May we have on the screen 65 ter 2838.
1 I'm sorry, this is subject to protective measures. So can we go
2 into private session.
3 JUDGE HALL: Private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 10949-10950 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I have nine other Milos reports that
16 obviously I'm not going to get to. They are all part of his 92 ter
17 package. He all authenticated them in his 92 ter statement. I was
18 wondering whether it would be possible simply to provide the numbers
19 of -- the 65 ter exhibit numbers for those documents to the Registrar and
20 then those can just be admitted in bulk. We have gone over quite a few
22 statement that can verify their authenticity.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honours, before I start the
24 cross-examination, I need to know what has been admitted.
25 Therefore, I would rather give 15 minutes of my time to
1 Mr. Olmsted so can he can finish probably with this than wonder which of
2 the documents have been introduced. And then I offer them again and we
3 just use the time.
4 I'm perfectly willing to give 15 minutes of my time to
5 Mr. Olmsted. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HALL: We have the bank again.
7 Mr. Olmsted, I haven't forgotten you also alerted us to the
8 video. We indicated that you had 45 minutes, which is about to expire.
9 It's about time that we rise for the day. The -- on the resumption
10 tomorrow, could you prove your video that you have alluded to, and the --
11 I would have thought that the -- given the adjournment, that, if the --
12 provided, of course, these -- whatever the number of the remaining
13 documents are are on the 65 ter list ... they all are?
14 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, they are.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the -- I don't know that you wouldn't
16 necessarily need the 15 minutes because Mr. Zecevic could, I would have
17 thought, put himself in the position, once you would have communicated to
18 him what the numbers are, to cross-examine tomorrow. So the only thing
19 left for you to do tomorrow morning would be to prove your video, and
20 that would bring your examination-in-chief to an end.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Let me just put the numbers on the record. It will
22 just take a second.
23 65 ter 871, 873, 2830, 146, 2837, 549, 203, 2842, and finally,
24 2843. I think there are nine documents there.
25 And, of course, if one has been admitted, then -- and that's
1 redundant, but I think I checked and these weren't, but ... perhaps that
2 could be verified.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the Registry would assign numbers to those
5 five or six, whatever the number is.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The numbers will be Exhibits P1386 through P1394,
7 Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I also just remind Your Honours
9 that if Mr. Riedlmayer is not an expert, then we're not going to get him
10 here on this weekend. So we do need a ruling tomorrow. It's still -- I
11 reminded Your Honours two days ago that it's outstanding.
12 JUDGE HALL: We haven't forgotten.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes.
14 JUDGE HALL: We were actually working on the assumption that is
15 travel arrangements have been fixed.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, they have. But, I mean, there's no point --
17 we can unfix them if you decide he's not an expert and therefore you
18 don't want to hear from him. But I mean, what I mean is I want a ruling.
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: If he's not an expert, why wouldn't you hear him?
20 MS. KORNER: On what basis would he be giving evidence,
21 Your Honours, if he wasn't an expert?
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, I mean, a fact witness.
23 MS. KORNER: Hardly. I mean, he's -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: He's bringing all his photos of the mosques.
25 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... of the mosques --
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: And so could we not see them without hearing him
2 as an expert?
3 MS. KORNER: Well, I don't know, Your Honours. I don't know that
4 we've considered that a possibility. We've treated him as an expert;
5 he's been treated as an expert in other trials. And it's -- if
6 Your Honours decide he's not an expert -- in fact, I think we ought to --
7 if that's -- if Your Honours are thinking about that - I must say it
8 never crossed my mind that you were; which shows I should never take
9 things for granted - then we'd want to argue that.
10 JUDGE HARHOFF: What difference would it make? I mean, we would
11 certainly wish to hear his testimony and to see his photos. That, I
12 think, is relevant.
13 But the issue remains whether he has to be called and heard as an
14 expert with all the things that follow from that qualification.
15 MS. KORNER: He is going to be giving opinion evidence,
16 Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yeah.
18 MS. KORNER: Which is something, technically, that only an expert
19 can do.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, so long as Your Honours can say
22 something tomorrow, one way or another.
23 JUDGE HALL: We take the adjournment until 9.00 tomorrow morning
24 in this chamber.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day
3 of May, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.