1 Wednesday, 9 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.
10 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, Belinda
11 Pidwell, Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
13 Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence this
14 morning. Thank you.
15 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Igor Pantelic and
16 Dragan Krgovic for Zupljanin Defence.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 Good morning to you, Mr. Njegus. Before I invite Mr. Zecevic to
20 continue his cross-examination, I remind you you're still on your oath.
21 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 WITNESS: RADOMIR NJEGUS [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Njegus.
2 We'll pick up where we left off yesterday, discussing the bylaws
3 enacted by the Ministry of the Interior.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D64, please.
5 Q. While we're waiting, you are aware that there were cases of
6 unlawful conduct with seized property in the Ministry of the Interior.
7 That was one of the problems the Ministry of Interior faced.
8 A. Yes, I remember that.
9 Q. You see this is an order dated 6 September 1992, and it relates
10 precisely to this issue and the statement of reasons describes precisely
11 what I have just said, that there have been cases of registered illegal
12 conduct with confiscated property. And it is thereby ordered that seized
13 property be treated in keeping with the Law on Internal Affairs and other
14 regulations, that proper records of seized property must be kept, that
15 such property must be treated the same as securities and valuables, and
16 that members of the MUP who failed to comply with this order will be
17 subjected to criminal proceedings and prosecution.
18 Do you remember this order?
19 A. Yes, I remember it very well. Among other things, because, as
20 you can see, there is a handwritten note in the top right corner which I
21 made. It says: Kekic, to the register. I wrote that down, and I told
22 one of my clerks to put this order in the appropriate file. I remember
23 this order. I know that it was sent to all the organisational units on
24 the ground, and I remember that more or less everyone began executing
25 this order thereafter. I remember cases of failure to comply, and I
1 remember that Mr. Stanisic had taken appropriate steps in several cases
2 of failure to comply.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-2376, please.
4 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Njegus, that after a while, instructions were
5 also enacted about the keeping of deposits. This was endorsed by the
6 Ministry of the Interior and was passed on to SJBs.
7 A. Yes, I remember. These instructions were prepared by the
8 administration for crime.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we get the document on the
11 This is a copy forwarded by the chief of the Doboj centre on 25
12 November to public security stations in the territory of the CSB Doboj.
13 Can we see page 2, because this is it just the cover letter.
14 Q. Here on page 2 is the instruction on the keeping of deposits, and
15 in November 1992, the CSB passes these instructions on to the SJBs in its
17 Do you remember this instruction?
18 A. I don't remember the substance, but I know for a fact that this
19 was prepared by the crime administration, and I know it existed.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Considering the statement of the
22 witness, I would like to ask that this document be marked for
24 JUDGE HALL: So marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 1D321, marked for
1 identification, Your Honours.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Could we now show the witness 1D53.
4 Q. This, sir, is an instruction on how to draft the annual progress
5 report for the Ministry of the Interior. In this case, not actually a
6 report for the year but for nine months because the ministry started
7 operating in April.
8 Do you remember this document?
9 A. Not precisely. But I remember that Petar Vujicic, in his acting
10 position, worked actively to promote this kind of work and analysis and
11 information, and that he sought data and information about the operation
12 of the ministry, to the extent possible.
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see page 8, please. That's
15 the last page.
16 Q. For you to see the signature.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] And can we zoom in on the
19 Q. Again, this is the signature of Petar Vujicic whose
20 administration was in charge of this work.
21 A. Doubtlessly, that's his signature.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness 1D63,
24 Q. Mr. Njegus, here we see a letter concerning a questionnaire on
25 war crimes. We see that it's dated 19 July 1992, and it was created
1 based on the conclusions adopted at the collegium meeting of the MUP in
3 the CSBs for further action. That means to be passed on to public
4 security stations in their respective areas so that all war crimes may be
5 recorded in the format dictated by this questionnaire.
6 Do you remember this instruction and the questionnaire?
7 A. I don't remember it specifically, but I know for a fact that
8 after these meetings and a certain amount of insistence by the assistant
9 minister Dobro Planojevic in his acting position and Goran Macar who, I
10 believe, at the time was coordinator, these problems were very often
11 discussed, and I know that on their part they exerted every effort to
12 issue certain instructions to units on the ground and that they did that
13 both orally and in writing, and this is one example.
14 Q. Dobro Planojevic was chief of the administration for crime
15 prevention and detection.
16 A. Yes. It was called administration for crime prevention and
18 Q. In the MUP of the Republika Srpska?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up P530.
22 Q. Mr. Njegus, when you were talking to my learned friend yesterday
23 and the day before yesterday, you were asked a number of questions
24 concerning the powers of the under-secretary and the minister
25 respectively with regard to signing documents.
1 You remember that?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I will now show you the law, and I
4 need Articles 14 through 20, and that would be on page 2 and 3 in
5 Serbian, and it could be, I suppose, page 3 and 4 in English. Articles
7 Very well. Thank you.
8 Q. I'm sure you know this, but for the record and for the purposes
9 of these proceedings and for the sake of transparency and to explain your
10 previous answers. Article 14 reads that the public security service
11 shall be led by the under-secretary in the ministry who will be
12 accountable to the minister.
13 It's a fact, isn't it?
14 A. Yes, it is a fact. If you take into account that this Law on
15 Internal Affairs was earlier enacted by the Assembly of the Serbian
16 People on the 1st of April, but most of the provisions were actually
17 incorporated from the Law on Internal Affairs of the former Socialist
18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. It's a fact, Mr. Njegus, isn't it, that the Ministry of the
20 Interior consists of the public security service and the National
21 Security Service as two branches of the ministry.
22 A. Yes, certainly.
23 Q. And each of these two services, the public security service and
24 the National Security Service, is headed by an under-secretary or
25 assistant minister -- sorry, deputy minister, who is practically managing
1 that service.
2 A. Without a doubt. I tried to explain that a moment ago. The
3 organisation of the service was the same in the Republic of Bosnia
5 Q. You are trying to say that in the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina
6 like in all the ministries of Internal Affairs throughout the former SFRY
7 the ministry was divided into public security and national security, and
8 each of these services was led by an under-secretary?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to the next page -
11 that's page 3 - to show the witness Article 20.
12 Q. Article 20 concerns the National Security Service, and it says:
13 "An under-secretary shall be in charge of the National Security
14 Service ..."
15 That's what we discussed?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Managing the Public Security Service or the National Security
18 Service implies that an under-secretary has all the powers for that
20 A. Yes. Practically, yes.
21 Q. Thank you. So from that point of view, the issue of the powers
22 vested in Mr. Skipina and Mr. Kitso [as interpreted] and Mr. Cedo
23 Kljajic, who was under-secretary for public security, are not in
25 A. No, they're not. But if you allow me to explain.
1 The minister of the interior, more or less everywhere and that
2 includes Bosnia and Herzegovina before the war, was usually a politician,
3 not a career policeman, but the under-secretaries in the Ministry of the
4 Interior were top-notch professionals, as they should be. They were
5 before the war and they were in our republic as well, with the exception
6 of Minister Stanisic who was really a professional more than a
7 politician, so that may introduce an element of confusion.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 7, line 22, may I just
9 correct the name. It is not Kitso, it's Kijac, referring to Dragan
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 I believe you also discussed with Ms. Korner the meeting of the
13 collegium held on 11 July 1992
14 the 28th of August in Trebinje.
15 Do you remember that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. I have just a few questions on the subject, and I believe that
18 will be the conclusion of my cross-examination.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P427,
20 item 8. Or perhaps 427.8.
21 Q. I'm not sure if Ms. Korner has shown you this document, but in
22 your evidence, you did mention it, and you said that after the meeting a
23 report was created and submitted to the President of the Presidency and
24 the prime minister of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
25 A. I remember that.
1 Q. And this is the document, isn't it?
2 A. It could be. Or perhaps it was called a summary report. I can't
3 remember that detail. But, again, you see the handwritten note referring
4 to Petar Vujicic, where it says "delivered to."
5 Q. You mean that Petar Vujicic wrote in his own hand delivered to
6 the President of the Presidency and the prime minister?
7 A. Yes, that's his handwriting.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
9 page 5 of the Serbian version. I think that the page number is the same
10 in English.
11 I apologise, I still have to find the right passage in the
12 English text.
13 I think the page in the English version doesn't match. But I'll
14 read it out.
15 I'm interested in the second paragraph where it says:
16 "It was pointed out that the priority of the National Security
17 Service and the crime service was the uncovering of war crimes for the
19 It says among others the filing of criminal reports and instances
20 of war crimes if committed by Serbs are also documented.
21 Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I do. This was an important matter at the time. And if I
23 may comment, that's why I was surprised to read the indictment for
24 Mr. Stanisic in which it said the opposite. Namely, that he ordered and
25 instigated, encouraged, et cetera, the commitment of war crimes. I was
1 surprised to read that. As you can see here, he stood for the opposite.
2 Q. I have just been informed that the page in English is page 3. I
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be
5 shown --
6 Q. By the way, thank you, Mr. Njegus.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
9 Q. This document was shown to you during the examination-in-chief.
10 It's dated 24 July 1992
11 by who?
12 A. By --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name.
14 MR. ZECEVIC:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Please repeat the name of the person who signed.
16 A. I have already confirmed that this is the signature of Goran
18 Q. Who was deputy assistant minister -- deputy assistant minister
19 Dobroje Planojevic for crime prevention; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Very well. I believe that you have already said this to
22 Ms. Korner, but the OTP argues that, in this manner, by such orders, the
23 perpetrators of crimes are, in fact, amnestied. It is the OTP case that
24 people who act inappropriately as MUP members are taken off the register
25 of the ministry and transferred to the army, in accordance with their war
1 time assignments. It is a fact, however, that criminal accountability?
2 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, it's -- I don't think A, that it's proper
3 to put a question like that. It's the OTP case. He can put facts or ask
4 questions. But in any event, I take issue with the sentence, if it was
5 translated accurately. It is the OTP case that people who act
6 inappropriately as MUP members are taken off the register of the ministry
7 and transferred to the army.
8 That is absolutely not our case.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I will withdraw, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, let us simplify. The issue of the criminal
11 accountability of the perpetrator is regulated by the law, isn't it?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. Regardless of the status of the perpetrator being either a member
14 of the MUP or a civilian, if he or she commits a crime, the employees of
15 the Ministry of the Interior are duty-bound to launch measures in
16 accordance with their authority, right?
17 A. Yes, that is clear. But if you allow, I can give -- provide a
18 comment to what Mr. Macar signed.
19 There was something of a debate between the OTP and me about
20 this, and my impression is that they drew a wrong conclusion. The
21 purpose of this order signed by Mr. Macar was the following. At that
22 moment, due to the information that people were -- who shouldn't have did
23 wear police uniforms, it was decided that the members of the reserve
24 police force should be discharged from the police as soon as possible and
25 put at the disposal of the army. But this is not -- does not mean
1 amnesty for criminal or other accountability for their act, so they may
2 still have to serve prison sentences.
3 So this decision, or order, does not constitute an amnesty and
4 does not mean that they are not -- will not be held accountable for the
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
8 shown document 65 ter 10371.
9 Q. Let me remind you that you spoke with Ms. Korner about this
10 document, which is an authorisation for Danilo Vukovic, who was a crime
11 investigator of the MUP, to visit and inspect some SJBs in the area of
12 CSB Bijeljina.
13 Do you remember?
14 A. Yes, I do, and I signed it.
15 Q. You said then that Danilo Vukovic not only carried out that task
16 but investigated Dragan Andan who also accompanied him, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Basically these crime investigators of the MUP go to the
19 territory of the CSB to learn about the circumstances there, find out the
20 shortcomings, and facilitate the enhancement of the work of the SJBs,
22 A. Yes. As I have already explained, we didn't have many people
23 with ample experience in either the crime police or the uniformed police
24 at the time. But where it was possible and where the circumstances
25 allowed it, we did send out these investigators to the field to places
1 where we had heard there were problems for them to be able to assist and
2 file adequate reports that would make it possible to take measures.
3 I know that Danilo Vukovic was sent to these towns, as well as
4 Dragan Andan. Some others were sent to Herzegovina, and so on.
5 Q. It's a fact, isn't it, that when these investigators left to --
6 for their fact-finding mission, some paramilitary units were arrested.
7 Do you remember?
8 A. Yes, of course. That was one of the larger activities in the
9 area of Zvornik against the paramilitary group that was called Yellow
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document if
12 there is no objection against that.
13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit 1D322, Your Honours.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
17 Q. Sir, you mentioned a short while ago that some investigators of
18 the ministry went to Herzegovina
19 Vukovic, you mentioned that some went to Herzegovina. Do you remember
20 Vojin Vukovic, an investigator?
21 A. Yes. I remember that he was sent there, possibly twice. I also
22 remember Slavko Draskovic. He was also sent there, and I believe there
23 was a third person with them, Milanovic, or some such. They were sent
24 down there, and some of them twice.
25 Q. Sir, I don't know if you have seen this document. It's a
1 document which the chief of the CSB, Krsto Savic sent to the minister and
2 as far as I can tell, he is protesting and opposing the arrival of
3 Investigator Vojin Vukovic, who, obviously had instructions to establish
4 a police station with the SJB of the Gacko. And among others, in the
5 last-but-one paragraph, he says that this investigator, although he was
6 sent by the ministry, does not have the necessary respect and trust of
7 the populus. And in the last paragraph, he requests more detailed
8 information about the reasons for establishing a police station in Gacko.
9 And he refers to a joint solution of the situation.
10 Do you remember this document?
11 A. No, I don't know the document. But I'm familiar with this
12 problem and the incident that occurred in the relations between the
13 then-chief of the CSB Savic and Investigator Vukovic. I wasn't the one
14 who sent Vukovic to the field and gave him instructions. It was his
15 supervisor. But I know that when he returned he was very angry and
16 dissatisfied by the way he was received there, especially by Krsto Savic.
17 He was prevented from entering the police station, and this report
18 drafted by Savic confirms that.
19 I, of course, cannot remember what the crux of the problem was,
20 but I do remember that there was a problem. Vukovic was from that area
21 and later on he was sent to the field to Herzegovina, but I don't think
22 he went to Nevesinje and those police stations around there, but to --
23 rather to Trebinje and other places.
24 Q. What it boils down to is that the chief of the CSB, Krsto Savic,
25 doesn't want to obey orders and doesn't accept the decision of a certain
1 administration of the ministry, right?
2 A. Yeah, well, approximately. My comment would be, although I
3 hasten to add that I don't wish to say anything bad about anyone, but
4 this man Krsto Savic was a peculiar person and later events confirm that,
5 especially the way he ended up.
6 So he had his own particular views of things.
7 Q. You said he didn't respect anybody.
8 A. Yes, more or less.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I
10 seek to tender this document as well.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] ... is it necessary?
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I believe so, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HALL: It struck me that the connection between this
14 document and the witness is rather tenuous. Indeed, the -- one of the --
15 I was not -- I didn't fully understand - let me put that way - the last
16 set of questions that were put to this witness about this document that
17 he was being -- here is a witness looking at a document that he was not
18 the author on and asking to give his -- to read into it certain
19 impressions and then added to that were certain comments about the
20 character of the -- of the author. And taken all together I'm wondering
21 how useful that is at the end of the day.
22 So that is one of my reservations about exhibiting it.
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]
24 MR. ZECEVIC: If Your Honours would indulge me, I would try to
25 explain as short as I can.
1 Your Honours, the witness knows about the problem that -- that
2 existed with the author of this document, namely, Mr. Krsto Savic, the
3 chief of CSB of Trebinje.
4 On this document, and the witness acknowledges he knows that for
5 the fact, is that one of the inspectors was sent from the ministry to
6 co-ordinate and help establish the -- the -- the station, the police
7 station in Gacko, and the chief of the CSB didn't want to go along with
8 that. And he's writing this document, and the witness, although he does
9 not know about this document, he knows for the fact that that was the
10 case, and he -- he knows for this problem between the inspector that was
11 sent and the chief of the CSB.
12 And I believe that -- that that is relevant in -- in this case.
13 JUDGE HALL: So the -- so the relevance of the witness's
14 testimony and recollection as to the problem that existed between
15 Mr. Savic and his superiors stands independently of the document.
16 Indeed, inasmuch as the document is foreign to him, it doesn't assist.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours. It is ultimately for
18 the Trial Chamber to decide, and ... I try my best to explain why I think
19 that this --
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, if it helps, we don't object to the
21 admission of this document at all. I mean, I didn't say so. I thought
22 it was obvious, but we don't object to it, and it's a document that may
23 or may not have some relevance.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
25 JUDGE HALL: Well, Mr. Zecevic, Ms. Korner having coming to your
1 rescue and her last phrase may have some relevance, we'll admit it.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL: And that is by majority that decision to admit it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 1D323, Your Honours.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
7 Q. It's a document you discussed with Ms. Korner. This is a summary
8 from a working meeting of the leadership structures of MUP held on the
9 20th of August in 1992.
10 Can you see the document?
11 A. Yes, can I see it.
12 Q. On page 4 --
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have page 4.
14 Q. Penultimate paragraph was the one you discussed with Ms. Korner
15 related to arrest of 100 able-bodied Muslims. Do you remember discussing
16 this yesterday at the beginning of the session with Ms. Korner?
17 A. Yes, I do remember that.
18 Q. All this is actually the speech by the chief of CSB, Mr. Krsto
19 Savic, in relation to the security situation in the Trebinje CSB area.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please look -- I apologise.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous page back
23 in the Serbian version; page 4. E-court page 4, yes, thank you. The
24 English text is where it should be.
25 Q. When this penultimate paragraph was read out to you in relation
1 to arrest of the 100 able-bodied Muslims, I think that it was read to you
2 without regard of the context because looking at the paragraph preceding
3 it, according to which it is stated that an assessment of the Trebinje
4 CSB, the security situation is threatened by about 300 persons of
5 Muslim -- Muslims, armed Muslims who have rebelled who were organising
6 into smaller groups, and then we have an explanation in the further text
7 of the area where they are active.
8 Based on that, one can draw a different conclusion. Am I right?
9 A. It is possible. However, what we see written here most probably
10 was stated and then transcribed exactly as we find here in the text.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at page 9.
13 Q. As can you see, it's in the third paragraph. It says, after the
14 block and the issues during which the members of the CSB stated main
16 Can you see this?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. It is stated here that the chief -- just let me wait for a moment
19 until we've found the right paragraph in the English version.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I think it should be on the
21 following page in the English version.
22 Yes, can we please have the following page. One more, I'm
23 afraid. I apologise. Yes, that's the right page.
24 Q. As you can see here, it is stated that chief of the Trebinje CSB,
25 Krsto Savic, took the floor again and he is again complaining about -- or
1 protesting about Vojin Vukovic and Dragan Andan and their behaviour.
2 Can you see that?
3 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
4 Q. The minister, in his reply, says that any objections from the
5 field should be sent to the ministry for it to be considered and for
6 possible measures to be then taken.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Since you've commented on the rest of it, I will have no further
9 questions in relation to this document.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
11 65 ter 153 document.
12 Q. That would be my last topic. I'll deal with you, Mr. Njegus.
13 Yesterday, at the very beginning of my cross-examination, we
14 discussed -- or maybe not at the very beginning but roughly at the
15 beginning, we discussed the issue of the establishment of RS MUP starting
16 from scratch. We said that there were about 40 and only 40 members of
17 MUP in the headquarters, unlike the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 they had about 400 employees.
19 This document, this is a list of salaries for May 1992, and if my
20 calculations were right, one can see that there is about 39 or maybe 40
21 members of MUP.
22 Can you please be shown page 2 of the document.
23 According to you, according to your recollection, would this be a
24 list of all MUP employees at the headquarters in May 1992? All together
25 there's 40 of them.
1 A. This is clearly so. There's no doubt about that. I can give you
2 my comment in one sentence.
3 You can see the number of people in the crime department police,
4 how many people are there. Only four persons. Uniformed police only
5 five. In my administration, just a few secretaries, and that's all. In
6 the initial time, this is how the situation was.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would
9 like to tender this document.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: This would be Exhibit 1D324, Your Honours.
14 MR. ZECEVIC:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Njegus, thank you, I have --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I don't have
17 any more questions for this witness, thank you.
18 Q. [Interpretation] I have no further questions for you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Njegus. I am Dragan Krgovic. I'm
22 representing Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, and I will put a few questions to you
23 in relation to your testimony so far.
24 Let me just follow up on a topic that Mr. Zecevic has discussed
25 with you, and, of course, I would like to ask you to make a break after
1 having heard my question, wait for a moment, because we are being
2 interpreted. We don't want to have overlapping or problems with the
4 And let me just state that we have never met before because you
5 refused to have any discussions with the Defence.
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Responding to questions put to you by Mr. Zecevic in relation to
8 transfer of reserve policemen from war time assignments within police to
9 war time assignments with the army. And here's my question: A reserve
10 policeman, upon receiving a war time assignment within MUP, that doesn't
11 mean he is permanently employed?
12 A. That's correct. You're right.
13 Q. The reserve policeman is there on the war time assignment because
14 immediate threat of war was proclaimed and should such an officer be
15 responsible for a disciplinary violation, his removal from police war
16 time assignment to some other assignment, war time assignment, either in
17 the army or somewhere else, that process exactly represents the -- the
18 disciplinary proceedings against him.
19 A. Yes, that's correct. But that does not mean that his criminal
20 accountability is abolished by doing that.
21 Q. In essence, the most severe penalty within disciplinary
22 proceedings is termination of employment.
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. The very fact that a person is removed from the war time
25 assignment, police war time assignment, means that the measure has been
1 handed down. Formally maybe not; but, in essence, yes?
2 A. Well, one can make such a conclusion, yes. In essence, that
3 would be it.
4 Q. During your testimony, responding to the questions, both by the
5 Prosecutor and Mr. Zecevic, you mentioned this meeting. And one of the
6 problems that was discussed at the meeting was engagement of the police
7 by the army in combat operations.
8 Am I correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. In the early days, after the breakout of the war in Bosnia
12 rather, would subordinate the entire force of a police station and send
13 them to the front lines.
14 A. According to my information, all sorts of things were happening
15 during this unfortunate conflict. Even situations that a paramilitary
16 unit would take over the police station, steal all the weapons,
17 documents, seals and so on. All sorts of things were happening,
18 depending on the area.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court,
20 P160. It's a summary from the meeting held on 11th of June or July 1992.
21 Page 5 of the document in the Serbian version; page 8 in the English
23 Page 5 in e-court -- or -- my apologies, no, it's rather page 8
24 because the e-court page numbers do not match the ones ... 03241855.
25 Yes, that one. Fourth paragraph from the top, please. Starts
1 with words: "Because of the losses in Mrkonjic Grad ..."
2 Q. This is what Stojan Zupljanin was saying at the meeting. He's
3 discussing this very issue I mentioned a moment ago. Namely, that it is
4 necessary to define the role of the police in their immediate involvement
5 in combat operations. The army is asking engagement of the entire police
6 force. They resubordinate them and then put them at the most difficult
7 front lines. This should be stopped.
8 Do you agree that such problems were present in the early stages
9 of the war, as you've discussed it at the start with the Prosecutor, they
10 didn't even ask for any kind of approval from CSB or the ministry.
11 A. Yes, yes, of course, I agree with you. Mr. Zupljanin was one of
12 the smartest, wittiest chiefs that we had, and he had no problems saying
13 openly what he meant. He obviously wasn't discussing this topic. These
14 problems were present not only at the early stages but also throughout
15 the entire war. Either with the army and even more with the
16 paramilitaries. We have had different situations and problems where
17 police found itself in an unenviable position. With time, the
18 relationships with the army were improved; but, in the initial stages, it
19 was rather disorganised.
20 Q. You also spoke of these problems in the relations with the army
21 throughout the war. Now if you compare the forces of the police and the
22 forces of the army from the viewpoint of combat assignments and the
23 security situation, the Army of Republika Srpska had, at that time,
24 between 250 and 300.000 members under arms.
25 A. I don't know the exact figure. I know roughly how many police we
2 Q. But from this report you drafted, we see the numbers of MUP
3 personnel. It's a huge disproportion relative to the army. And the army
4 was asking to have the police join combat activities, which had a great
5 impact on the police force's ability to continue law enforcement.
6 A. I tried to give you a picture. Many of them in the Army of
7 Republika Srpska were practically jealous of the police, because the
8 police force, compared to them, had more or less proper uniforms and
9 equipment, and all the time they tried to push the police officers into
10 first combat ranks.
11 Q. At the very outset of the war, when the MUP of Republika Srpska
12 was established, was coupled with the outbreak of clashes and skirmishes
13 throughout Republika Srpska and problems in the organisation of the MUP
14 in the entire territory.
15 A. Yes, without a doubt.
16 Q. And you said earlier in your evidence what kind of problems you
17 faced on the local level, with various Crisis Staffs and municipal
19 Now let me ask you a question from a professional point of view
20 regarding the operation of the MUP and the role of various organisational
21 units of the MUP. The work of the MUP of Republika Srpska was organised
22 in keeping with the Law on Internal Affairs and the rules on internal
23 organisation of the MUP.
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. The powers, the role, and the tasks of individual members and
1 officials of the MUP were stipulated by the law, and they were working in
2 accordance with the law.
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Every officer and official, as you explained to Mr. Zecevic,
5 within the MUP and within CSBs and SJBs had their respective powers under
6 the law and under the rules on staffing specifications.
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. It was not indispensable in day-to-day work in the management of
9 the agency he was in charge of for him to ask instructions and authority
10 from his superior.
11 A. Not only was it not necessary, it would even have been stupid.
12 He was the primary person responsible for his area and for his
14 Q. And speaking of organisational units, the basic organisational
15 unit and the basic cell of the MUP, was the public security station, and
16 it was accountable for the security situation in its own area.
17 A. Yes. That was the most important organisational unit on which
18 everything in the territory of the municipality depended. And that is
19 precisely where the greatest problems lay.
20 Q. And the greatest problem, as you said, was with the inappropriate
21 operation of these SJBs and their being in cahoots with local Crisis
22 Staffs and municipal authorities.
23 A. I didn't really understand the question, but let me try to
25 As I said, the greatest problems occurred precisely on the lowest
1 local level, such as SJBs. It depended on the particular municipality
2 and the competence of the chief of the public security station. Chiefs
3 were able or unable to deal with the problems. Of course, he could have
4 been, at the same time, at the head of the Crisis Staff. To what extent
5 a particular chief would be able to resist pressure from the Crisis Staff
6 depended on his personality. It depended on his professionalism.
7 So it all depended. It was different from municipality to
8 municipality, but the greatest problems were faced precisely on the local
10 Q. I'll show you now a document, Exhibit P621. Tab 2 of the
11 Zupljanin Defence binder.
12 I think you've seen it before. It's a report of the Banja Luka
13 CSB, progress report for the period 1st July to 30th September 1992.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The ERN number is 00749643.
15 Start with paragraph 2. Could we enlarge the text, please.
16 Paragraph 2.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I don't think in your line of work you received this document.
20 But Mr. Zupljanin discusses here precisely the problem you mentioned. He
21 reports to the ministry that there occurred a functional and practical
22 detachment of a certain number of SJBs from the centre, which
23 considerably disrupted the unity and the social role of the organs and
24 security services.
25 And it also says that some of the SJBs attached themselves
1 with -- to the local politics and leaders, neglecting their legal
2 obligations and authorisations. But this occurred not only in
3 Banja Luka. Correct?
4 A. Yes. I've seen this during proofing, although I didn't read it
5 back then. However, I'm sure that everything written here did happen in
6 reality and happened often. I have no doubt about that. It -- it was
7 simply a fact.
8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... time for the
10 JUDGE HALL: Well, if this is a convenient point, it's --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
12 JUDGE HALL: If you could you use the two minutes then.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Njegus, look at the next paragraph. It says that almost
15 regularly a number of SJBs turn a deaf ear to the requests and demands of
16 the centre to inform them of certain matters, and they failed to react in
17 good time to requests from the centre, which jeopardizes the unity of the
18 organs and security services and their ability to act. In such
19 circumstances, it is difficult to have a full grasp of the security
20 situation, to make assessments, and make proper security evaluations on
21 the territory of the region and the Republic.
22 A. That's right. And we can only imagine how hard it was for
23 Zupljanin to co-operate with certain chiefs in his own area, such as
24 Simo, Drljaca, and some others.
25 Q. And if you remember when you went on a field trip to Banja Luka
1 one of the problems discussed at that meeting was precisely the failure
2 of certain lines of work in the centre to operate, precisely because of
3 problems like this.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I said in 1993.
6 Q. Speaking of your travel to Banja Luka.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think now is really
8 the time.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MR. KRGOVIC:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Njegus, let us continue with this.
16 You basically answered all my questions about this document which
17 we have in front of us. Answering the question of Mr. Zecevic, you spoke
18 about the organisation of the headquarters of the MUP where there are two
19 under-secretaries, one for state security and another for public security
20 and what their powers are as compared to those of the minister.
21 Was there something like that at the level of the CSB, where the
22 chief had a -- of the centre had a chief of the sector of public security
23 and chief of the sector of public security?
24 A. Yes. There was a regional organisation, and at the regional
25 level there were the chiefs of centres of state security and chief of
1 centres of public security.
2 Q. And their powers were almost identical as at the level of the
3 ministry, only they were at a lower level, right?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And within the public security sector there was also the
6 uniformed police, right?
7 A. Yes. I believe only in Banja Luka was there a sector of
8 uniformed police, and in the other centres they had departments instead.
9 Q. Who was the chief? At the beginning it was Stevan Markovic in
10 Banja Luka, wasn't he?
11 A. Yes, the late Markovic.
12 Q. And in the sector of the uniformed police for public security,
13 they had under them the uniformed police and the special police forces,
14 part of which was the special police detachment, right?
15 A. Well, not quite. Part of the sector of the uniformed police --
16 or, rather, organisationally linked to them there were the police
17 stations as well as the support units. That's the name that we had for
18 them then. However, the special police detachments, as far as I know,
19 had organisational links with the command at the level of the MUP
20 headquarters. So they were not part of the centres of public security.
21 Q. You are now referring to the period when the detachment was
22 established at the level of the MUP of the Republic and the commander was
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I would like a clarification for the transcript. Answering the
1 Prosecutor's question on page 11328 of the transcript of the 7th of June,
2 lines 15 and 16, the language isn't quite clear.
3 You spoke about Stojan Zupljanin and said that he was a good
4 chief, to put it that way. And you went on to describe -- you went on to
5 elaborate and said that he listened to all your instructions -- or,
6 rather, he respected all your decisions and he obeyed all orders. As far
7 as you know, orders from the MUP headquarters. And it was recorded in
8 the transcript the other way around that he gave instructions to you.
9 A. Well, in that case, it must be corrected, yes.
10 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... I agree with
11 you, may I say, Mr. Krgovic, when I read it. It doesn't make sense to
12 me, but perhaps if we could have -- if you could read it out in English
13 and then we can get what he actually wants to say.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah.
15 Q. [Interpretation] I'll read out to you the English transcript:
16 "He respected all of our decision. He provided us with all the
17 necessary instruction. He gave us orders."
18 This is the part I'm -- I was referring to.
19 A. No, as far as I remember, I didn't say that.
20 Q. Yes. So actually, it should be turned around.
21 The answer was not recorded. Do you agree with what I'm saying?
22 A. Yes, I agree. It must be corrected.
23 Q. When you spoke about the functioning of the Banja Luka centre and
24 Stojan Zupljanin, how you evaluated his work, you spoke from the point of
25 view of the body that you headed.
1 I will now show you Exhibit P625. It is a report on the
2 activities of the MUP of the RS from April to December 1992.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Prosecution binder, it's
4 tab 51.
5 Q. So this is a report, a detailed activity report. I suppose that
6 you were able to see it. And I would like to go to page 19.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version, it is
8 marked F120-1298. It's the third paragraph from the top. It starts with
9 the word [B/C/S spoken] in Serbian and in the English version it's the
10 last but one. The highest number of criminal reports regarding general
11 crime were filed by the public security stations from the CSB of
12 Banja Luka 6.082 or 75 per cent of the total number.
13 When you spoke about the efficiency of the centre you probably
14 had in mind the -- this data. Namely, that most criminal reports were
15 filed here more than elsewhere.
16 A. Yes. Among other things, I probably meant this too. But I
17 focussed more on the subject matter from my purview and for which I was
18 responsible, and I've already said that we didn't have any problems with
19 the Banja Luka centre. These are the regular statistics about police
20 activities, and I'm sure that they faithfully reflect the situation in
21 the territories of individual centres.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the following page of
23 this document. The page reference is F120-1299.
24 Q. And look at the second paragraph.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The English page doesn't
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Two and a half thousand forensic analyses were conducted of
4 mechanical and chemical traces, et cetera. Almost all of these
5 activities, that is, 2.481 were carried out in the area of CSB
6 Banja Luka.
7 A. Well, that's natural because our forensic centre was located in
8 Banja Luka, so it is natural to expect that most of this was done there.
9 Q. Then there is the following paragraph. On-site investigations
10 were carried out and anti-sabotage activities -- the -- and the
11 percentage is 90 per cent of the overall number.
12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] And let us turn to page F120-1301.
13 I'm interested in the third paragraph from the top. It's about
14 misdemeanour offences and reports relating to them.
15 Q. Over 78 per cent of the 9.611 were filed by members of the CSB of
16 Banja Luka; correct?
17 A. Yes. Well, if that is what the activity report says, then it
18 must be right.
19 Q. And basically when you were answering the Prosecutor's question
20 and saying that you considered Stojan Zupljanin a police officer who
21 had -- who was highly esteemed for his authority and integrity, you had
22 in mind these results as well.
23 A. Yes. Among other things, that's what I had in mind.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Njegus.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Korner:
2 Q. Mr. Njegus, let's stay with this document for a moment, shall we?
3 MS. KORNER: Are we on page 20 in the English? I can't see ...
4 No. Can we go to page 20 in the English. It is headed:
5 Inspection tasks for protection from fire and explosions. I'm afraid I
6 haven't the faintest idea of what it is in the Cyrillic B/C/S.
7 Actually, it may be page 26. Possibly. It looks like there's a
8 C there.
9 Page 26 in B/C/S.
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see, sorry, page 26 at the bottom, so whatever
12 that is. Right.
13 Q. Does that -- is that a section headed: Inspection tasks for
14 protection from fire and explosions?
15 A. No.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is paragraph G in
18 MS. KORNER: That would explain it. Thank you. How's about page
19 20 in B/C/S. Is that a C?
20 Anybody from the Defence want to tell me what page it is?
21 MR. KRGOVIC: I will. 24.
22 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Krgovic. Right.
23 Q. Do you see that section?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I'm not clear, do I understand that you were involved in the
1 preparation of this report, Mr. Njegus?
2 A. No. Except, as I explained yesterday or the day before, I gave a
3 contribution by submitting a personnel data. So in that part I was
4 involved, but not in any other parts.
5 This was mostly done in the analysis department by Mr. Petar
7 Q. All right. Were you aware, Mr. Njegus, that during the period of
8 1992 in the areas which were taken over by the Serbian Republic
9 were not already Serb, that there was massive destruction of mosques and
10 Catholic church, churches, through explosions and fires?
11 A. Officially, no. Unofficially, I did have such information.
12 Q. Right. When you read this report then, were you surprised to see
13 there's no reference in the section, inspection tasks for protection from
14 fire and explosions to any destruction of any religious buildings?
15 A. Yes. Even today I can say, as possibly earlier, that this was a
16 shortcoming. There was no reason not to mention these things, but it's a
17 fact that there were no officially available data about that.
18 Q. Well, you say there was no reason for this. Would -- in your
19 opinion, did this amount to a war crime?
20 A. Yes, certainly. I cannot deny that. However, we didn't comment
21 that. These days we even mentioned the daily bulletin of events which
22 was made -- or rather, there were attempts by Mr. Vujicic to do that as
23 well as possible, and he made efforts to learn such information from the
24 field, and it did come in occasionally. But speaking about these
25 matters, now I can say, that, as far as I remember, we didn't receive
1 official information about this.
2 Q. Was this official policy that no documents prepared by MUP
3 headquarters should mention the destruction of religious institutions?
4 A. No. I can state that with full responsibility. None of the
5 executives of the MUP in the headquarters did implement such an official
6 policy. And you saw official documents in which we -- that contain
7 serious warnings to that effect, and we always insisted on getting
8 information from the field. There were criticisms for the failure to
9 receive information, so I can repeat that there was no official policy of
10 this kind on our part.
11 Q. But if you knew unofficially and maybe common sense it was so
12 widespread it couldn't be ignored that this was happening, did you, at
13 any stage, make any inquiries or any of your subordinates directly to the
14 chiefs of the CSBs, saying, We know this is happening. Can we have some
15 reports, please.
16 A. No. I hope that you understand. This was not within my purview.
17 But there's no reason for me to back out of this. The -- I know the
18 colleagues who were in charge of the crime police, and I know from them
19 that they requested their -- the organisational units in the field to
20 give them objective information and to conduct on-site investigations and
21 the rest.
22 Q. Specifically in relation to such crimes as the destruction of
23 religious institutions?
24 A. Yes, as far as I remember. We commented that, and, as far as I
25 remember, they sent out such instructions to the organisational units in
1 the field.
2 Q. Do you recall any discussions about this in any of the collegium,
3 the big meetings you had in July or in August and September, in November?
4 A. As far as I remember, that issue was not raised, because, if it
5 had been, it would have been mentioned in the minutes or summary -- that
7 Q. Mico Stanisic travelled around the areas quite a lot, didn't he?
8 A. Most probably.
9 Q. Well, did he ever raise, to your knowledge, with you or the
10 chiefs of the CSBs when they had meetings that something needed to be
11 done to investigate and to prevent this destruction of non-Serb religious
13 A. You specified only this one segment, relating to war crimes. But
14 as we have seen, he was, generally speaking, putting all his efforts and
15 asking for the police work to be carried out to the full in relation to
16 all issues. He did not have any discussions with me about it. Now,
17 whether he did do that in relation to other people who are in charge of
18 such issues --
19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just to be fair with the witness,
20 if the Prosecutor is talking about setting out explosives and creating
21 general threats to the public, I believe that the witness should be shown
22 the -- page 13 of the document, where this very specific topic is being
23 discussed, something that's not being hidden from the minister.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... so either he
25 be asked once again, because he was referring to war crimes here, not all
2 MS. KORNER: I'm now very confused.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... 36:14 -- 36:15.
4 MS. KORNER: Sorry, what do you want him to be asked again?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the witness's answer was not recorded as was
7 MS. KORNER: All right. I'll ask him the question again. Sorry.
8 Q. Yes, my question was --
9 My question, sir, was: Did he ever raise to your knowledge with
10 you or the chiefs of the CSBs when they had meetings that something
11 needed to be done to investigate and prevent this destruction of non-Serb
12 religious buildings?
13 And your reply was:
14 "You specified only this one segment relating to war crimes. As
15 we have seen, he was generally speaking putting all his efforts asking
16 for police work to be carried out to the full in relation to all issues.
17 He did not have" -- sorry, it was an earlier part, wasn't it, you were
18 ask about Mr. --
19 Sorry, which was the bit, Mr. Zecevic, you said that you --
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that is correct what you
21 were reading.
22 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... okay.
23 "Are to be carried out to the full in relation to all issues. We
24 did not have any" -- he did not it should read, I imagine, not we -- "did
25 not have any discussions with me about it. Now whether he did do that in
1 relation to other people in charge of such issues" -- and then
2 Mr. Krgovic interrupted.
3 Q. Now Mr. Zecevic says you said something else.
4 A. I should probably now start from the beginning.
5 With your permission, let me try and give you an answer in the
6 following way. My memories, my impressions, the way I witnessed the
7 period, I think I can say with clear conscience that in relation to Mico
8 Stanisic that Mr. Mico Stanisic insisted on three or, rather, four
9 issues: Discipline within the police force; work aimed at prevention and
10 detection of crime; processing and removing from the police force those
11 individuals who were involved in criminal activities; and for issues
12 related to war crimes.
13 I was a person active at the time. I wanted to be objective. I
14 made a solemn declaration here. I don't have any specific reason why I
15 would state things in any way that's different from what it was.
16 Q. Right. The -- Mico Stanisic's four issues and then the issues
17 related to war crimes. I want to understand your evidence. Are you
18 saying that Mico Stanisic's insistence on the issue relating to war
19 crimes was that all war crimes should be investigated?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Whether committed against Serbs or against non-Serbs?
22 A. That's right. During the proofing for this testimony of mine,
23 you will remember I provided you with an example of such an approach by
24 Mico Stanisic, in relation to Mr. Vlahovic, known as Batko.
25 Q. Yes. Exactly, which I reminded you. Your assertion is that it
1 was Mr. Stanisic who ordered that he be arrested?
2 A. Yes. According to my recollection of the events, that's how it
3 was. I know this through Dobro Planojevic, who was at the time chief of
4 the administration for criminal investigation police, who was ordered by
5 Mico Stanisic, asking him to take all necessary measures to arrest a man
6 because this person was committing war crimes in the area of Sarajevo
7 Lukavica, and so on, and I know that Dobro Planojevic did all he could,
8 that eventually he was arrested by the military police, upon insistence
9 of us from the MUP, and I also remember how soon he was again released,
10 if that's of any importance.
11 Q. Yes. And, indeed, he has only now just been re-arrested again
12 recently, hasn't he?
13 A. That's correct, in Spain
15 Q. And he was committing crimes against everybody, wasn't he, Serbs,
16 non-Serbs alike?
17 A. No. He was committing crimes mostly against members of the
18 Bosniak ethnicity.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I just to come back to,
20 please, your assertions, please, about Mico Stanisic and investigations.
21 You say that it was investigations into all war crimes, whether
22 committed against Serbs or non-Serbs. That's -- that's what you're
23 saying, is it?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And whether or not Serbs were the perpetrators of the crimes or
1 non-Serbs were the perpetrators of the crimes, the investigation would
2 have been identically conducted?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. All right. Well, can we just look at the series of documents,
5 please, that relate to this topic, because you were asked about this
6 questionnaire. And so let's deal with that.
7 Can we look, first of all, please, at 65 ter 127, which I believe
8 is probably already an exhibit, but I can't remember what the number is.
9 MS. KORNER: P173. Thank you.
10 Can we look at the last page of the B/C/S, please, to see the
11 stamp and the signature.
12 Q. Can you tell us, it would appear, this is the genuine signature,
13 is it, of Mico Stanisic, or is it somebody signing on his behalf?
14 A. I think this is his authentic signature.
15 Q. So this is an actual document signed by Mico Stanisic.
16 MS. KORNER: Let's go back to the first page.
17 Q. 16th of May, 1992 to the five security centres, to the chief, in
18 view of the tasks resulting from the order by the minister of the
19 interior ... of the previous day, purpose of monitoring combat operations
20 and regular activities of the organs of the interior in order to collect
21 documentation on the crimes against the Serbian population.
22 Do you recall this order, Mr. Njegus?
23 A. No, I don't remember this. I did not take part in drafting of
24 this. I would assume this was drafted by the crime investigation
25 department or administration.
1 Q. But this is clearly an order -- this is not something that was
2 sent out without Mr. Stanisic's authority or knowledge or delegated
3 authority, I should say, because he signed this himself, didn't he?
4 A. He must have, since he signed it. But one should first take a
5 look at the order because they're referring to this order here.
6 Q. You mean the one of the 15th of May?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But what I'm interested in, are you surprised at all to see,
9 given you say that he took this overall view that all crimes should be
10 investigated, that what he was asking for was documentation on the crimes
11 against the Serbian population?
12 A. This document before me is surprising to me because I know that
13 general approach was treat all war crimes equally. And that's why I said
14 that it may be useful to take a look at the order that's mentioned in the
16 Q. The 15th of May?
17 A. Yes. Because maybe this is -- is what provides the general
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we'll check. I haven't actually got
20 it here but we'll check as the witness has put it to us.
21 Q. While we're waiting for that document, and if you go on to the
22 fourth section, which is page 3 in English, I think this was second page
23 in ... so we see there is no misunderstanding about this.
24 I think it is probably the second page in the B/C/S. Yup.
25 Paragraph 4 or section 4, war crimes:
1 "Measures and activities conducted to document war crimes. These
2 activities must involve collection of information of documents on war
3 crimes against the Serbs."
4 So you would agree that there is no misunderstanding about what
5 Mr. Stanisic is asking for here?
6 A. I agree with you. I must say that this document comes as a
7 surprise to me. I don't know of this document, but I'm certain that this
8 document does not amnesty other type of responsibility for war crimes
9 against others.
10 Q. But -- may not amnesty them, but it is not exactly him forcing --
11 forcing -- instructing the chiefs of the CSB to investigate crimes, war
12 crimes against non-Serb, is it?
13 A. That is true if one views this document out of the context, but
14 if one remembers the conclusions from the meeting and some instructions
15 that were issued, then I disagree with you.
16 Q. Yes. The meeting simply talks about war crimes, I agree. But
17 you have to look at that as a -- you keep saying in context, so we'll
18 show you the order of the 15th of May.
19 MS. KORNER: 1D46. 15th of May, I'm sorry.
20 Q. All right. That's the order referred to in the document of the
21 following day.
22 I suppose we better go to the last page and see whether that's a
23 personal signature or a facsimile.
24 Now, can you tell us, Mr. Njegus, personal or facsimile?
25 A. Facsimile.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, clearly, maybe Ms. Korner could
2 address again the previous document which -- which she stated that it was
3 signed by Mr. Stanisic and it's clearly --
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Quite different.
6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... I asked him. I asked
7 him whether it was signed.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. But maybe you should readdress this because
9 the facsimile and the signature on the previous document are quite
11 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... well, you say -- I asked
12 whether it was signed by Mr. Stanisic or was a facsimile. And I said it
13 didn't look like a facsimile, and he said, no, it was signed by
14 Mr. Stanisic.
15 But I'm perfectly happy to go back to the signature. But can we
16 just deal with this document, and I'll go back to the ...
17 Q. So this document doesn't talk about anything to do with
18 investigation of war crimes or anything, does it? It's --
19 A. I haven't read it in detail. I expected one would find that in
20 the document because the previous document was referring us to this
21 document, and I expected to see a general position on that issue.
22 Q. Well, I mean, we can't give you the handwritten document. But if
23 we -- it's on page 2 at the moment. Show you page 1. It's to do with
24 the -- oh, no, I think we looked at this earlier, actually. Yeah, it was
25 the war units one.
1 A. Yes, yes. You're right. I expected to see an item here that
2 would speak about war crimes in general, all of them, and that's why I
3 asked for you to show me the document.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... well, let's go back, please,
5 to the document I was asking you about, because you've been asked to have
6 a look again at the signature.
7 MS. KORNER: It's P173. And we need the last page in B/C/S. All
8 right. And can we highlight the signature. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said that a moment ago and
10 let me repeat it, I believe that this is a genuine signature by
11 Mr. Stanisic. I cannot claim that with certainty, and it is different
12 than the facsimile, but I think it is his signature.
13 MS. KORNER: Are you happy with that, Mr. Zecevic?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
15 MS. KORNER: All right. Can we move along, please, then. Can we
16 have up, please, 65 ter 1232. There again I have a feeling that is
17 already exhibited.
18 P275. Thank you.
19 Q. Now, these are the minutes of the Presidency of the Serbian
20 Republic, and I accept entirely, Mr. Njegus, you were not present at this
21 meeting. But item number 3 is:
22 "That the government draft a decision on the establishment of a
23 state documentation centre which will gather all genuine documents on
24 crimes committed against the Serbian People in this [sic] war."
25 Now were you aware of the establishment of this documentation
2 A. I think I was.
3 Q. This was government policy, wasn't it, Mr. Njegus, translated
4 into one of the organs of government - namely, the police - that was a
5 priority was documenting crimes committed -- war crimes committed against
6 the Serbs.
7 A. It was not up to me to make conclusions as to what is whose
8 policy and whether it was so or not. But the other side had similar
9 agencies and centres in charge of investigating crimes committed only
10 against their people.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... can I assure you,
12 Mr. Njegus, I'm sure you're right on this. But what I'm dealing with is
13 your assertion that there was a policy of objective investigation amongst
14 the Serbian MUP in Bosnia
15 parties, Serbs and non-Serbs, and I'm just asking you on reflection and
16 having seen these two document, whether you may be in error on that?
17 A. I don't think I am. I still stand by what I have stated.
18 However, I do understand that the priority was as what we've seen in
19 these two documents, but I will stand by my claim that, in principle, in
20 MUP of Republika Srpska, people who were in charge of investigating
21 crimes tried to investigate all crimes equally. Now, whether that was
22 implemented by others in the way it was intended, now, that's a different
24 Q. All right. As far as you're concerned, therefore, there can be
25 no doubt at all, particularly from the chiefs of the CSBs and whatever,
1 who attended the various meetings that they were supposed to be providing
2 information to MUP headquarters via the CSBs on war crimes committed
3 against all sides -- I mean -- Serbs and non-Serbs.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And you were referred to that questionnaire, which I believe was
6 then exhibited or the letter that sent out the questionnaire.
7 MS. KORNER: Can we have a look, please, now -- we need to go
8 into private session for this because it's a document under seal, P1072.
9 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MS. KORNER: Can we have up, please, P166.
12 Q. This is addressed to Mr. Vujicic. And is that -- is that your
14 A. I think not. Most likely it isn't, no.
15 Q. You have been able to -- you're saying no or yes because you have
16 been able to identify your handwriting on other documents. Is that yours
17 or isn't it?
18 A. It is not.
19 Q. All right. This is the July to September report from the CSB in
20 Trebinje, addressed to the Crime Prevention Department and by this stage
21 you are in Bijeljina or the MUP is in Bijeljina.
22 If we go in English to the second page, and I think probably in
23 B/C/S. Okay. So it's all on the first page, is it, in B/C/S? Or maybe
24 the third -- could go on to the third page. Yup, thank you.
25 Last paragraph. Apparently it says genocide somewhere, according
1 to the translation:
2 "Apart from the aforementioned, the CSB Trebinje ... submitted
3 four criminal reports for war crimes against 138 persons in the case of
4 killing a group of citizens of Serbian nationality in the area of
5 Nevesinje and Mostar ... other inhumane acts and killing of civilians in
6 Ustashas prisons in Mostar and Capljina and genocide against unknown
7 perpetrators," et cetera.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, can the Serbian version be lowered down or
9 maybe next page because we can't see what [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, genocide. Yes. And
11 I see the words genocide now.
12 Q. Now, again, not a -- not a word about any crimes that had been
13 committed against non-Serbs. Do you agree? War crimes.
14 A. I can see, although I don't know this text. I'm certain I would
15 have remembered such serious qualifications if I had read them, so I
16 can't give you a comment.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this was Krsto Savic who was
18 chief of Trebinje, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A man who you described as peculiar. Can you explain to us what
21 you mean by "peculiar?"
22 A. I was trying to say he was a man from SDS structures, not only
23 during the war but from before the war, and if I remember well, he was a
24 member from when the SDS was founded. I was also trying to say the man
25 had never worked in the police before, so it's far from being his
1 profession. And I said he was peculiar because he was pig-headed. It
2 was very difficult for him to fit in with the police discipline and
3 method of operation, and he was prone to creating incidents, even before
4 the 1st of April, 1992. That's what I was trying to describe.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,
6 on page 48, line 2 and 3, Ms. Korner. Now, not a word about any crimes
7 that have been committed against non-Serbs, do you go? War crimes.
8 Now I insisted that the witness be shown the third page from
9 which Ms. Korner was reading, and it wasn't shown to him. And on the
10 third page there is a reference to war crimes. So, I mean, just for the
11 clarity of the contents of the documents, please.
12 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr. Zecevic, I actually
13 didn't hear you insist on me showing the third page. I thought you asked
14 me to move the thing up.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Ms. Korner, what you were reading has not been
16 shown to the witness on the monitor, the part that you were reading.
17 Just the first two sentences are on this page and the rest of the things
18 that you read is on the next page.
19 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I thought -- I thought
20 you wanted it moved up.
21 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated]
22 MS. KORNER: But I don't actually -- sorry. The part I read --
23 can we go -- I read the part in English which is has handwritten
24 genocide, which is the bit that wasn't showing properly, down to killed
25 14 natives of Serbian nationality, and that is on the page, the previous
1 page. I don't quite follow at the moment, I'm afraid, what I'm supposed
2 to have done wrong.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the beginning of the page, maybe the witness
4 can read it. I don't want to mix into this, but this is clearly
5 different from what you are asserting, Ms. Korner, I'm sorry.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This doesn't mean a thing to me
7 because --
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just pause, sir, while I go
10 back to what -- the document I thought I had finished with.
11 MS. KORNER: Right. Thank you.
12 Q. Now, what I was asking you about was the paragraph which we can
13 clearly see in B/C/S on the page that was showing and which is the same
14 in English. It is the paragraph which has written by the side "genocide"
15 and begins: "Apart from the mentioned CSB Trebinje ... submitted four
16 criminal reports for war crimes," et cetera.
17 That is the paragraph, is it, sir, that you can see?
18 A. That's not in dispute. It's just that I'm seeing the document
19 for the first time.
20 Q. Yes, so you say. Right. Now, I then went on to talk -- I was
21 then gone on to ask you about Krsto Savic and what you meant by peculiar,
22 and you described that.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm just trying to find your description again. He never worked
25 in the police. He was pig-headed, and he was prone to creating
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that was even before the 1st of April. Is that what you
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the 1st of April, of course, 1992 was when he was appointed
7 by Mico Stanisic as chief of the CSB.
8 So what incidents - and obviously incidents you knew about as
9 well - had he committed before the 1st of April?
10 A. I can't remember the details now, of course, but this pre-war
11 situation that will culminate in war eventually was rather long, a year
12 or two years, and during that time there were all sorts of incidents in
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was a lot of trouble, including among
14 others, incidents involving Mr. Savic, although I can't remember any
15 specific ones now. It is true that he -- Mr. -- he was appointed chief
16 of centre formally by provisional letter of appointment, as you said, but
17 in the war circumstances, even such moves had to be accepted because I'm
18 sure that the SDS on all levels insisted on his appointment and probably
19 some regional organ of the SDS as well, whatever it was called,
20 autonomous region or something. That's what I was trying to say when I
21 was explaining about Mr. Savic.
22 Q. So what you are saying is, if the SDS insisted on an appointment,
23 Mico Stanisic would do what the SDS wanted?
24 A. Inter alia, I suppose so. I'm not stating a fact, but I suppose
25 that's how things went.
1 Q. Even before Mr. Savic was convicted at the state court, were his
2 activities notorious? During 1992, I mean.
3 A. That's what I was trying to explain without going back into the
4 specifics of various events.
5 Q. I mean, was it known in 1992 that he personally had taken part in
6 the killing of -- of a Muslim?
7 A. I don't know about that. I don't know if other people were aware
8 of that.
9 Q. And when this report came in from Trebinje in 1992, in September,
10 did anybody, to your knowledge, say, Look, it's notorious how Krsto Savic
11 is behaving towards the non-Serbs. Clearly this report is not telling us
12 the truth about the crimes there. Did anybody, to your knowledge, say
14 A. I don't know that. I've already said twice that I'm seeing this
15 for the first time. This is addressed to the crime police
16 administration, and I don't remember whether there was talk about that.
17 Q. All right. Well, let's just have a look at one more document on
18 this topic and then that will be it, Mr. Njegus.
19 MS. KORNER: Could we have up, please -- sorry, private session
20 again. This document is also under seal, P1098.17.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 11490 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Sorry, I do apologise, Your Honour.
16 [Interpretation] I objected at the time, and I asked -- because I
17 did not deal with explosions and arson in my cross-examination, I asked
18 that the witness be shown the passage in the report dealing with these
19 incidents and the measures the ministry was taking against them, and
20 Ms. Korner did not show that, so I would like be given leave to resume my
21 cross-examination just to show the witness this part of the document,
22 including the measures the ministry was taking to deal with it, because
23 it now seems to be on the record that the witness knows nothing about it
24 and the ministry was doing nothing against these crimes.
25 Can I just have a few minutes?
1 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ...
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown,
4 please --
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, this exercise, how long is it going to
6 be because we are past the time that we would normally --
7 MR. KRGOVIC: We can do it after the break.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I, just before we do break,
9 explain what the situation is at the moment. The estimate for the two
10 sets of cross-examination were something like seven hours. There is --
11 the next witness is here, but Mr. Krgovic has asked that he be allowed to
12 speak to him. Mr. Hannis who is leading the witness would prefer that we
13 don't start him until tomorrow, but if Your Honours want him, then we are
14 perfectly happy to start the next witness.
15 JUDGE HALL: What we have thought about, and it's something that
16 you can let us know after the break whether you have a view on it, is
17 the -- having regard to the preliminary determination which has to be
18 made in respect of his mode of testimony, if he could be -- take the
19 declaration for the limited purpose of dealing with that issue, and then
20 be released so that we would have the advantage of using the time that we
21 have available today but then he -- he isn't prohibited from further
22 communicating with counsel.
23 MS. KORNER: Otherwise that would stop Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Hannis
24 talking to him, but if you're -- I'm sure we can deal with it on that
25 basis, Your Honours. We will have him here after the next break.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: The issue is whether we can take him down just
2 for the purpose of his protective measures without interrupting
3 Mr. Hannis's --
4 MS. KORNER: I'm sure we can, Your Honour. I don't think there's
5 any difficulty about that. We'll make sure he's here for the next
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I -- I announced that I have a -- a
11 small matter to raise.
12 Your Honours, the witness was invited to comment on the -- on the
13 document, P166. And, as you noticed, I intervened two times, asking that
14 the complete document be shown to the witness for his comment, in order
15 that we have a truthful and the actual contents of the documents
16 presented to the Trial Chamber.
17 It -- it wasn't done, and I -- and I believe due to the fact that
18 this document was not -- we were not on notice that it's going to be
19 used, but I understand it is -- it came out of my cross-examination, but,
20 still, I believe it will assist the Trial Chamber that we -- that I be
21 given an opportunity to re-address this document with the witness and ask
22 him to read the contents of it, the true contents of the document, not
23 interpreting the contents of the document and then ask him a question or
24 two about it.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE HALL: Which is what I understood Mr. Krgovic's application
3 to be in relation to a different document.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have no objection to this other than,
6 I mean, how long re-cross goes on. Your Honours will recall there were
7 both Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Zecevic were at that stage both interrupting
8 about something, but I understood that the witness had looked at all the
9 relevant parts of the document. But if Mr. Krgovic thinks -- Mr. Zecevic
10 thinks that, then I'm not going to object to that.
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So the position of the Trial Chamber is that,
12 for the very limited purposes that counsel have indicated, and we state
13 the obvious it is not leave to reopen their cross-examination but for the
14 very limited purposes in each case, the portion of the documents which
15 counsel claims adds a context could be put to the witness and then, of
16 course, counsel for the Prosecution have a right to re-examine on -- on
17 anything new that comes out.
18 JUDGE HALL: Who wishes to go first?
19 MR. KRGOVIC: I go first, Your Honour.
20 [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown P625.
21 Q. It's the progress report for April/December 1992.
22 Can we show page 2, F120-1297 in Serbian.
23 Mr. Njegus, the Prosecutor asked you a set of questions about
24 explosions and destruction of buildings and places of worship of other
25 ethnic communities. You said it was not your part of the job and you
1 were not involved in dealing with this. Could you please now look below,
2 the largest paragraph, A, prevention and detection of crime, and then it
3 speaks about types of crime. One of the points is setting explosive to
4 buildings and causing public danger. It's the paragraph that begins with
5 the words: "Some other objective difficulties ..."
6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you see that? May I ask for
7 this paragraph to be enlarged.
8 Q. It speaks about bombings, that is, setting explosives to
9 buildings and it's not specified but it was obviously directed at other
10 ethnic communities.
11 A. I said already I have no specific information about this. It was
12 not my line of work.
13 Q. Now if we look at page 38 of this document, which is the platform
14 for the following year.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the number.
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] F120-1318. The last point at the
17 bottom. In fact, we need page 1317 first because, in B/C/S, the passage
18 starts on one page and straddles the next page. Enhancing measures to
19 protect property and persons from fire and explosions.
20 And could we have the next page in B/C/S. And setting up an
21 organisational unit for fire protection in the MUP with the aim of
22 inspection, supervision, and providing professional assistance.
23 Q. So in fact, even assistance was envisaged in dealing with these
25 A. Yes, apparently.
1 Q. And when the Prosecutor asked you if there had been such reports
2 from CSBs you said it was not your line of work and you were not aware of
3 them, which does not mean that these reports did not exist.
4 A. That's perfectly correct.
5 Q. I'll show you one --
6 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] -- document.
8 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... dealing with
9 this in re-examination again, I didn't deal with the guide-lines
10 following. Does Mr. Krgovic feel it -- able to deal with -- put up the
11 part that starts: "Prevention, detection, documentation of crimes against
12 humanity and international law."
13 I don't know where that is in the B/C/S, but it's on page 30 in
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 1317, that's 38. In the Serbian
16 version, it's 38. Or 1317, the last digits of the ERN number.
17 Q. Now, look, it says: "Preventing, detecting, and documenting
18 crimes against humanity and international law with a special emphasis on
19 crimes of genocide and crimes against civilian population which, in the
20 past year, were the most numerous against the Serbian People."
21 And it's precisely what you said, there is no distinction between
22 crimes, but according to the records, most of them were under -- against
23 the Serbs.
24 A. That's my inference. There is just an emphasis on the crimes
25 against Serbs by generally all crimes are referred.
1 MS. KORNER: The translation I heard has been that it reads
2 prevention, detection, and documentation of crimes against humanity and
3 international law with particular -- with a special emphasis on crimes of
4 genocide. Now that doesn't appear in the translation I can see.
5 Does the word "genocide" appear in the original?
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.
7 MS. KORNER: Oh. It does. All right. Thank you very much.
8 We'll make a note that this needs to go back for correction.
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely what we discussed.
10 Q. An emphasis was placed on a certain type of crime and the numbers
11 of incidents of such crime were mentioned but there is no discrimination.
12 A. Yes, that was my conclusion.
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, the document, of course, says what it
15 MR. KRGOVIC: Yeah, exactly.
16 JUDGE HALL: And it seems to me that what is now left is
17 submissions at the end of the day as to what view --
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I just want to show
19 the -- because the document in relation to the religious and the cultural
20 had, so 1D00-2251.
21 Q. [Interpretation] The Prosecutor also asked you whether you
22 received and whether you were aware of CSB reports against -- about
23 destruction of such property --
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... aren't we
25 getting beyond the limited issue that you wished to raise? It seems that
1 to me that are you engaging into a re-cross, and I think we should stop
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, in fact, I did go
4 beyond the scope, but I wanted to clarify it between me and Ms. Korner.
5 In essence, I'm returning to the CSB documents. I did not raise it in my
6 cross-examination but I asked for your leave to discuss with the witness
7 the matter of explosions and bombings, because the Prosecution's claim is
8 such incidents were covered up. However, if the Trial Chamber believes I
9 am outside the scope, I'll comply.
10 However, I'd like to see this report because it shows precisely
11 the opposite of the Prosecution's claim that such information was covered
13 JUDGE HALL: That's what I meant when I said the document says
14 what it says and we're now in the realm of argument.
15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I meant the other document, Your
16 Honour, the next one.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2, please.
19 Q. Now, you see, Stojan Zupljanin signed, sending a report on
20 bombings to the MUP. Look at paragraph 4. It says - if we can enlarge
21 it - the fourth paragraph begins with the words -- if we could zoom in on
22 the fourth paragraph from the top:
23 "Concerning the crimes discussed here, thanks to the operative
24 works so far and with the consultation with the competent prosecutor's
25 offices and judicial bodies, the following crimes were solved: Causing
1 public danger, destruction of important economic facilities, sabotage,
2 destruction of cultural monuments," et cetera.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see footnote 1 in B/C/S as
4 well. "The buildings against which crimes were committed are religious
5 buildings, 11, eight of them Catholic, and three Muslim." And then if we
6 look at the next page --
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, is there any chance the witness
8 knows about this document, has seen this document?
9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm just asking him
10 about it.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what's the purpose? The witness gave his
12 testimony and you have evidence of the contrary. What's the purpose of
13 its -- its -- it's the Trial Chamber have you to convince not the
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I do want to -- I mean, I'm going to
16 ask to re-examine on this.
17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Sir, are you aware of this document?
19 A. On this topic, I have already given evidence. I said I had no
20 such information and such reports. I don't know that these reports were
21 sent, and this is another confirmation. This document is something that
22 I haven't received. I have no information about this. Obviously this
23 report refutes what I said because obviously such reports existed.
24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, sorry. Mr. Krgovic put this
25 report up. The witness says he knows nothing about it. So -- but
1 nonetheless, I do want to ask a couple of questions about it.
2 JUDGE HALL: You certainly have the right, Ms. Korner, but
3 Mr. Zecevic --
4 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I was going to deal with
5 that first because -- so the document stays on the screen rather than us
6 having to put it up again.
7 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... I suppose --
8 Further re-examination by Ms. Korner:
9 MS. KORNER: I think the whole system, may I say, Your Honour, is
10 quite right. There really shouldn't be re-cross.
11 Q. But this report which you haven't seen but you told the Court --
12 can we go back to the footnote, please, that we looked at, that
13 Mr. Krgovic asked about. No, I think it's the footnote on the solving of
14 crime on -- yes.
15 The footnote about religious buildings and crimes. It says:
16 "There were 11 crimes against religious buildings and this is the whole
17 of the Krajina area in 1992 Catholic and Muslim."
18 Did you hear unofficially about the destruction of mosques in
20 A. No, not in Prijedor.
21 Q. Did you hear unofficially in the course of 1992 about the
22 destructions of mosques and Catholic churches in Sanski Most?
23 A. Not in Sanski Most.
24 Q. And did you hear about them in Kotor Varos?
25 A. In Kotor Varos, yes. In a -- during certain time-period, I heard
1 that there was a destruction of mosques when I was in Banja Luka, and I
2 also heard of the same in Bijeljina.
3 Q. And are you able to say at all whether the 11 crimes against
4 religious buildings "(Catholic, 8 and Muslim, 3)" bear any relation to
5 the reality of the situation that actually occurred at all?
6 A. What do you mean, the reality? In what sense?
7 Q. Do you have any idea from information you received unofficially
8 whether this report is accurate in that there were only three crimes
9 against religious buildings, within the area of the Banja Luka CSB?
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Three plus eight, Ms. Korner. Three plus eight.
11 You said three.
12 MS. KORNER: Yes, three against mosques and eight against
13 Catholic churches.
14 Q. From your own information, does that appear to you to be an
15 accurate description?
16 A. I really don't know. I cannot give a precise answer. I did get
17 unofficial information about this type of destruction, but I cannot speak
18 about the scale.
19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
20 MR. ZECEVIC: May I, Your Honours?
21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. Can we have P166 on the
23 screen. Page 3 in English and in Serbian.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you will remember that you commented this
25 report of the CSB of Trebinje when Ms. Korner examined you. I was
1 getting up and objecting to the fact that not the entire document was
2 being shown to you, so I would just like to comment briefly with you.
3 It says: "Apart from what -- from the aforementioned" -- you see
4 where it says "genocide."
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please get page 3 of the
6 Serbian version again. I have just started reading it.
7 Q. It says:
8 "Apart from the aforementioned the CSB of Trebinje and the
9 National Security Service filed four criminal reports against 138 persons
10 for war crimes, and this is about the killing of a group of citizens of
11 Serb ethnicity in the area of the municipalities of Nevesinje and Mostar
12 and other inhumane acts and killings of civilians in Ustasha prisons in
14 This is what it says, isn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, the municipalities of Mostar and Nevesinje, especially the
17 prison in Mostar, this is not in the territory of the RS but, rather, in
18 the territory controlled by the units of either the Muslims or the
19 Croats, right?
20 A. Talking about Mostar you're certainly right. And if we speak
21 about Nevesinje, it depends on which part of Nevesinje we're referring
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we could see page five of the
25 Serbian version, and page 5 of the English version.
1 Q. It goes on to say what Ms. Korner has already read out to you. I
2 don't need to remind you about these 14 persons.
3 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
4 MR. ZECEVIC:
5 Q. [Interpretation] I don't want to remind you of it because you
6 have already commented on it with Ms. Korner.
7 However, Ms. Korner said that this report is only about crimes
8 against Serbs. So I would now like you to take a look at page 3. As I
9 have repeatedly asked you to do during her examination. It says:
10 "The SJB of Visegrad has also filed two criminal reports for war
11 crimes (massacre of ten civilians, including two minor children in the
12 village of Bilace [phoen] and the killing of one woman in the village of
14 Do you know that both these villages are Muslim villages?
15 A. I don't, but if do you --
16 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, we
17 cannot have counsel giving evidence.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MS. KORNER: Won't work. We cannot have counsel giving evidence.
20 He can ask the witness if he knows, and that's it. And if he doesn't
21 know, that's it.
22 MR. ZECEVIC: I wasn't giving evidence at all. I'm just asking
23 the witness.
24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, there is a mention here of the fact that
25 these are civilians of Serb ethnicity, or is the ethnicity stated or not
1 stated at all?
2 A. As we can see, the ethnicity is not stated at all.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: No more questions.
5 JUDGE HALL: Anything arising, Ms. Korner?
6 MS. KORNER: No. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Njegus, we thank you for your assistance to the
8 Tribunal. Your testimony is now at an end and you are released. Thank
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, and have a nice
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE HALL: So if counsel have no difficulty with what we
14 indicated before the break, that is the course that we would now follow,
15 in respect of the Witness 126.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Mr. Hannis is here, and I understand
17 there is no problem with that at all. And I will cede my place to
18 Mr. Hannis.
19 JUDGE HALL: So we go to closed session before the witness is
20 escorted in.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11505-11512 redacted. Closed session.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of June,
6 2010, at 9.00 a.m.