1 Wednesday, 23 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we begin, as usual, by taking the appearances for today,
13 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honour. I'm Tom Hannis, with
14 Gramsci Di Fazio and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
15 I have one scheduling matter I'd like to raise before we call in
16 the witness, once the Defence have made their notices.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
18 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
19 Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
20 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Igor Pantelic for
21 Zupljanin Defence.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 Yes, Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 I actually have two scheduling matters, and one of them is
1 regarding next witness, ST-168. He arrived yesterday afternoon. I've
2 only had about 45 minutes with him. The Defence has requested to
3 interview him, and we presently have time available at 10.30 and 11.30
4 this morning for them to meet with him.
5 So my request is when we finish with the current witness that we
6 recess for the day and start with ST-168 tomorrow. I'm scheduled for two
7 hours of direct. The Defence I think has four and a half hours total,
8 but I'm told it will probably be less. At any rate, we feel confident
9 that even if we don't start with him until tomorrow morning we will
10 finish with him on Friday.
11 And I understand the Defence has no objection to that request.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Hannis. We were alerted to
14 this last evening. So when the present witness has been released, we
15 will take the adjournment to tomorrow.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL: Now the second matter.
18 MR. HANNIS: The second matter relates to the first witness next
19 week, ST-130. We're presently scheduled to sit in the morning; we would
20 like to request that we sit in the afternoon. I understand that there is
21 a courtroom available. And if the parties and the Court has no
22 objection, that would be our request.
23 JUDGE HALL: We would have the Registry look into it, and we will
24 discuss it and get back to you.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE HALL: Would this be on Monday?
2 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honours, Monday.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes, the Registry has confirmed that it is possible
4 to do it, and the Judges have no objection. So we would sit on Monday
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Kezunovic. Before we
10 resume, I remind you you're still on your oath.
11 WITNESS: RADOMIR KEZUNOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I start, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kezunovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. We will now resume. And before I ask you one specific question,
21 I want to give you an example. All political parties - I don't mean only
22 the victorious ones, but all of them - and state authorities, the
23 municipality, the Executive Board, administrative agencies, and other
24 organs from municipality level to republic level, were often in a
25 position dealing with certain affairs to engage one or more experts,
1 connoisseurs of certain areas, to help them out in deciding on a stance,
2 making a feasibility study, an analysis, an expert report, et cetera; for
3 that purpose, they frequently established expert commissions and asked
4 such commissions to provide an expert report or an analysis.
5 Are you familiar with this practice?
6 A. Yes. But right now, I could not think of any specific examples,
7 although perhaps the best example is the preparation for that analysis of
8 data derived from the census that was conducted in Bosnia in April 1991.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honours, we lost the e-court
11 altogether. The LiveNote and the e-court and everything.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE HALL: I understand we will have it back in about five
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Well, I'll give you an illustration to make things easier.
17 Every municipality has its own statute, that is, the basic
18 document, a small-scale constitution on municipality level that governs
19 the fundamentals of the operation of this community. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That enactment is passed by the Municipal Assembly, but in order
22 to endorse it, somebody, an expert, must prepare a draft. Am I right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That's when a so-called statutory commission is established,
25 including prominent lawyers, usually prosecutors or judges, or perhaps
1 university professors, if the municipality is lucky to have them. They
2 prepare a draft document which is then forwarded for deliberation.
3 A. Yes. But as an executive authority at local level --
4 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,
5 unless I'm missing something, could you tell me where we're going with
6 this excursion into administrative law?
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just stated an
8 example, and I will move right away to the specific issue. I'm not
9 particularly interested in the statutory commission, nor shall we deal
10 with it. I'm interested only in the way these commissions were
11 established, and I'll move right away to my specific question.
12 Q. So can you answer just briefly, yes or no, is a commission of
13 expert established to prepare such a draft?
14 A. Yes. And then the Executive Board as the executive authority at
15 local level reviews these documents and puts them before the Assembly as
16 an official proposal.
17 Q. The basic criterion for the election of the members of such a
18 commission is their expertise and knowledge in an area, not their party
19 affiliation. So it may easily happen that everyone on such a commission
20 be without a party affiliations, not a member of any party?
21 A. Yes. Hypothetically speaking, yes.
22 Q. Then you will agree with me that, following the same principle,
23 this staff for regionalisation was formed, and I mean your specific
24 example and the example of Mr. Stanisic and maybe one of the others about
25 whom I can't be sure now. So this staff for regionalisation had nothing
1 to do with party affiliations?
2 A. Possibly. I did not participate in the establishment of that
3 staff or the election of particular personalities. But I think experts
4 in -- in respective areas were elected to that staff primarily, not party
6 Q. Thank you. And that is the main thrust of my question. I will
7 not ask you further about how they met or how they worked. You explained
8 that to the Prosecutor yesterday. We're done with this topic, and we're
9 moving to the next one.
10 You spoke about your own case, how you became an official in the
11 Ilidza municipality. You're probably aware that there was, at the time,
12 an inter-party agreement about the distribution of senior posts at every
13 level between the three political parties.
14 A. Yes. And I participated in the making of that inter-party
15 agreement at the municipal level of Ilidza.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] For the record, this is 1D113.
17 It's called criteria for the distribution of municipal posts and
18 departments endorsed by the representatives of the local parties: SDS,
19 HDZ, and SDA; and it was signed by the leaders of these party,
20 Alija Izetbegovic, Radovan Karadzic, and Stjepan Kljuic.
21 Perhaps we can look at the first page on the screen to refresh
22 your memory, 1D113.
23 Q. Do you remember better now? Have you seen this document before?
24 A. I did not see it, but I knew of its existence, and I know we put
25 it into practice in Ilidza.
1 Q. And based on these criteria, you formed a government in the
2 municipality of Ilidza.
3 A. That's correct.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Since I see that my colleagues
5 still do not have LiveNote, I have to pause and see if we can continue
6 working before I resume my examination.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HALL: I hear you, Mr. Cvijetic, but why can't we continue
9 in the mean -- I understand they're working on it; it will be back
10 shortly. But why can't we continue?
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I can, I can. I don't mind,
13 Q. However, Mr. Kezunovic, in order for one party to fill the
14 vacancies, the posts that belong to it according to the electoral results
15 and according to the agreed criteria, all the parties, including the
16 Serbian Democratic Party, made an inventory of qualified staff within its
17 own ranks, within its own membership, to see what kind of qualified
18 personnel they disposed of to fill these posts. Do you know about this
20 A. Of course, I do. I was fully involved in the selection of
21 personnel for senior posts in Ilidza municipality. And as president of
22 the Executive Board, which means local prime minister, I was the one who
23 proposed people to make up my own cabinet, so to speak. And I
24 immediately faced one basic problem: That I did not have enough
25 qualified, competent people for various sectors who had the proper
1 education and training for specific activities. And that is why I
2 proposed to keep some of the staff from the previous, let's say,
3 Communist government because within my own party, I did not have such
4 qualified staff.
5 Q. You anticipated my next question. There's no need to rush.
6 Let's just confirm, if you can, that these personnel lists, as we
7 call them, although their full name is much longer, were made in this
8 way. I'll show you the personnel list of the SDS for various posts,
9 senior posts, in various municipal to republic bodies, and I'll show you
10 that list.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D03-4116. 1D03-4116.
12 Q. You can see, now, the title of the document.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. It's a list of SDS members, potential candidates, for executive
15 positions in the republican, town, and municipal organs of administration
16 of funds and public companies.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher to give you a
18 hard copy. And if we could now turn to the next page on the screen,
19 page 2. Next page, please, both in English and Serbian.
20 Q. As you can see, these potential candidates were grouped according
21 to their area of expertise. This is the legal profession. And here you
22 see the members of the SDS who are prominent experts in law. Do you see
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to the next page,
2 Q. That's the end of the list of lawyers.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We can move to the next page.
4 Q. Expert in economics. You will see a list of prominent economists
5 in Republika Srpska.
6 Take a moment to look at the names.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And, finally, we come to your field of work. That's on to the
9 next page. Engineering. This is the end of the list of economists.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And we need page 6; science and
11 engineering. That's it.
12 Q. On this list are also professionals in education and other areas;
13 health care, et cetera. You've probably noticed that you are not on that
14 list, and Mr. Stanisic is also not on the list, although he has a degree
15 in law. Do you agree that it's precisely because you were not members of
16 the SDS, because, on the first page of this document, we see a list of
17 potential candidates from the SDS?
18 A. Yes. I suppose that's the reason.
19 Q. You know most of people from this list.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this
21 document is relevant, and I would like to tender it.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. --
23 JUDGE HALL: Why? Could you --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, does this go to prove that
25 Mr. Stanisic was not a member of the SDA -- SDS?
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] One of the main reasons is that.
2 Yes, Your Honour.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE HALL: No, Mr. Cvijetic. This document is not relevant.
5 It can't -- the absence of something can't prove the opposite.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is one of the
7 corroborating pieces of evidence, and this witness is testifying
8 precisely to these circumstances, namely, the membership of Mr. Stanisic
9 in the Main Board and in other bodies of the Serbian Democratic Party.
10 And I'm exploring various possibilities, and I'm not finding him on the
11 list of --
12 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Cvijetic,
13 what the Chamber has ruled is that it does not corroborate anything. By
14 its nature, it cannot corroborate what you were seeking to so do.
15 Please move on.
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I understand your decision,
17 Your Honours, and, of course, I accept it.
18 Q. Mr. Kezunovic, my last question in this area is going to be
20 You knew Mr. Stanisic as minister of the interior and probably a
21 member of the government. Let me ask you directly: Apart from his work
22 in these capacities, did you ever notice his political engagement outside
23 of his job? Before 1992, in 1992, and later.
24 A. I've already said that I do not really know Mr. Stanisic that
25 well. Privately I met with him once, twice, or thrice, at various
1 meetings, which were not limited to the two of us, and I did not notice
2 any political engagement or political work by Mr. Stanisic within the SDS
3 party or outside of it in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kezunovic, yesterday, while answering to the
5 questions put to you by the Prosecutor, you confirmed that you were, for
6 all practical purposes, the first person on the list of deputies of the
7 SDS for the municipality of Ilidza, although you were not a member of the
9 Let me now show you another document. It is 1D03-4137.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we didn't have time
11 to obtain a translation of this document, since this is only a list, so
12 names and surnames. We'll come to Ilidza list, where the witness will
13 notice his name. And I will, in the meantime, explain what this is all
15 Q. So this document that has attached the collective lists, but the
16 document itself is a reminder for voting. And, in the attachments, we
17 have the collective lists for the voting for all the municipalities of
18 the city of Sarajevo.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have please have page 1
20 on the screen. And then, later on, we'll move to Ilidza.
21 Q. Can you confirm, please, that it's stated here Centar Sarajevo,
22 the collective list for the election of deputies into the
23 Municipal Assembly of Sarajevo Centar, in this case?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have page 8,
1 because that's where Ilidza is located. Bottom part of the page, please.
2 Yes, thank you.
3 Q. This is where the lists for Ilidza start, but we haven't reached
4 the SDS.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we please move to page 10,
6 bottom part of the page, because at the bottom we will finds SDS. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Kezunovic, it's easy to see that -- it is correct what you'd
8 said, namely, that you are the first person in the list. Your name is
9 under 1.
10 A. Yes, that's correct. Radomir Kezunovic.
11 Q. Mr. Kezunovic, I can, again, provide you with this document in
12 hard copy, if the usher would assist us, please.
13 My question in relation to this document is the following: You
14 can leaf through it just to see the situation in all the municipalities,
15 and then I'll put my question to you.
16 I gave the lists to Mr. Stanisic as well to review them. And you
17 most probably know about Ilidza and maybe about some other
18 municipalities. And what we've noticed was that it was not one party in
19 not one municipality who put up on their lists people who were
20 appointed -- who already held the positions of judges or public attorneys
21 or lead policemen.
22 So my question is: Do you know that people holding such positions
23 could not even be candidates? Do you know about that?
24 A. I don't know, I cannot confirm that that was part of the law at
25 the time, but I think the rule was that people who were holding positions
1 within state institutions could not be candidates. Nowadays, of course,
2 it's very clear in the constitutional law of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 It's stated like that.
4 Q. So, in essence, they could not be involved in politics because
5 they had to be or have to be independent; they should not be under
6 political influence?
7 A. Yes, that's the essence of how it works.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, please pardon me if I'm confused. It
9 seems to me that counsel is giving evidence.
10 Could you frame a question --
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll put a direct question then,
13 Q. So you did agree with me that they cannot be members of political
14 parties for the same reasons that we discussed?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, didn't the witness says that he
17 doesn't know that for -- for this period? He knows it for now, but not
18 for -- for then.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness did say.
20 He said that it was not part of the electoral law, but it was applied in
21 principle. That's what he said. I think that's we have in the
22 transcript, but he can repeat that.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: [Previous translation continues] ... he didn't say
24 that. He didn't. He said that he can't confirm that it was part of the
25 law, and he thinks that it was -- the rule. That's all he said. That's
1 the highest you can put it at.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And if I understand you well, Mr. Cvijetic,
3 you -- you again try to prove with a list of names where some people are
4 not in that they are not member of a political party or they couldn't be
5 candidates because they had other jobs. But the -- the witness doesn't
6 even know whether -- whether this list contains such persons or not.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're now discussing
8 the principle. The foundation for my question were the lists or
9 specifically the list for Ilidza that the witness is already familiar
10 with. He knows it by heart.
11 But I can put my question directly.
12 Q. Were the people who were at posts - in the prosecutor's office,
13 police, or as judges - could they, at the time, be candidates for these
15 A. Well, I can answer. I cannot confirm that according to the
16 electoral law at the time it was strictly prohibited, but I can say for
17 the municipality of Ilidza, where I was at a head of the list, that
18 people who were in any way related to the army, police, or government
19 structure be put on our list, list at Ilidza; they were not -- they could
20 not be put on the list there.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, may I ask, What is the direct
22 purpose of this question? What exactly are you trying to prove, to
23 obtain from the witness?
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have confirmed,
25 until now, during our proceedings so far - and this witness can give his
1 comments on this issue - that people who were at political functions or
2 police functions at the time could not be candidates on such lists, and
3 that was the essence of my question. We've received an answer from the
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... my question
6 is, Who is this about?
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We are putting forward an argument
8 that's opposite to the argument put forward by the Prosecution. They're
9 saying that Mr. Stanisic was member of the SDS; we're saying that this
10 shows he could not have been member of the SDS or any other political
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] [Previous translation
13 continues] ...
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Not only him, but also other
15 members of the Ministry of Interior.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: But this document can't go anywhere to proving
17 that because all it's got is a list of names and ethnicity and place they
18 come from. It doesn't have anything about who they are or what they do
19 or anything like that.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it wasn't my
21 intention to tender this document. I showed it to the witness because I
22 wanted to remind him of the list of the people who were candidates for
23 the municipality of Ilidza. He confirmed and reminded himself about it.
24 My intention was not to tender it. And the document's purpose was just
25 to facilitate the witness's answer. I did receive an answer from him.
1 May I continue, Your Honours?
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Kezunovic, my last question was prompted by your story about
5 the flag that you removed from the Municipal Assembly.
6 A. That's the building that we had seen photographed in the document
7 we've just seen a moment ago.
8 Q. And in relation to your efforts to -- together with
9 representatives of the Muslim population and the local structures,
10 efforts to somehow avoid this or to make sure that the crisis would not
12 Now I will put my next question to you; namely, have you noticed
13 any paramilitary organisation of members of the Muslim community in the
14 municipality of Ilidza?
15 A. Yes. In March 1992, and let me remind you that this was, at the
16 time, following immediately several incidents in Bosnia, killing of a
17 member of a wedding party, then the referendum on the independence of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which took place on the 1st of March. In parallel
19 with that, there were also preparations; we at Ilidza knew about those
20 preparations for the Cutileiro Plan, which, objectively speaking, took
21 into account all our analysis that we proposed for avoiding the conflict
22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, part of all these incidents were --
23 were the appearance of this flag for instance.
24 But also in the first half of March, on my way to work, when I
25 came to the Assembly building, I found it filled with people who were in
1 civilian clothes but were armed because under their coats one could see
2 barrels. It was obvious that these people were armed. I didn't know who
3 they were. There was about 20 of them. I didn't know who they were.
4 And since the agreement existed and we discussed it between the police,
5 security, and other organs representatives of the Bosniaks, what I did
6 was I went to the first man of the municipality at the time,
7 Mr. Mahmutovic, and I demand an explanation.
8 What is this? What were these armed people doing in the
9 Municipal Assembly building? What's their purpose? I wanted -- want
10 immediately to explain that nobody stopped me while I was entering the
11 building. It was only that I saw the armed people being there. I
12 demanded the president to make sure that this would not happen again.
13 Because, according to our expectations at the time, namely that
14 Cutileiro Plan will finally revolve the situation in Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina and that we -- Ilidza just must make sure to, for this
16 period, to pass through without problems before the Cutileiro Plan starts
17 functioning. So Mr. Tomo Kovac and Mr. Milijevic, Edin all worked on
18 this together.
19 But five or ten minutes after that, all these people were
20 withdrawn. And that was the one incident that happened about an attempt
21 of armed taking over of the municipality. But I was told that the
22 Muslims had heard that Serbs were intending to take over the municipal
23 building at the time, which, of course, was not true. And that's the
24 incident I wanted to tell you about.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kezunovic. I have no further questions for you.
1 This is the end of my cross-examination.
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic?
3 MR. PANTELIC: No, Your Honour, we don't have cross-examination
4 for this witness.
5 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: None, Your Honours.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HALL: Well, Mr. Kezunovic, your testimony is at an end.
10 We thank you for your attendance before the Tribunal. You are now
11 released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE HALL: So I take it, Mr. Di Fazio, that that is it for the
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's the end of business for the day, if
17 Your Honours please. I have no further applications or issues to raise.
18 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment, to resume in this
19 courtroom at 9.00 tomorrow morning.
20 Thank you.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 9.48 a.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day
23 of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.