Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12553

 1                           Monday, 5 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             Good morning to everyone.  May we begin, as usual, by taking the

 9     appearances, please.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Gramsci Di Fazio,

11     Tom Hannis, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing

14     for Stanisic Defence.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

16     Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And I believe the usher has gone to get

18     the witness.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  We pick up where we left

21     off on Thursday.  And before Mr. Zecevic resumes his cross-examination, I

22     would remind you you're still on your oath.

23             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           WITNESS:  ST-155 [Resumed]

Page 12554

 1                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 4             It's a fact, sir, isn't it, that the Presidency of the Socialist

 5     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was the highest government body in the

 6     former Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   On transcript page 12501 from Friday, you were answering the

 9     question of my learned friend about courts -- or, rather, it was a

10     question from the Trial Chamber, and the question related to the National

11     Defence Council and Crisis Staffs.  Do you remember?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that we spoke about that.

13        Q.   You stated then, if I understood correctly, that Crisis Staffs

14     were, as you put it, illegal bodies, and that the parties organised them

15     to forward -- or to further party interests.

16        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  The Crisis Staffs were established by

17     political parties.

18        Q.   You also said that that was completely different from the

19     municipal National Defence Councils which were established pursuant to

20     the Law on National Defence?

21        A.   Yes.  There were Crisis Staffs in municipalities and in regions

22     as in the SAO Krajina, the SAO Romanija, and SAO this, SAO that.  All

23     such bodies were established contrary to the laws and regulations of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina because they were parallel authorities.

25        Q.   Sir, do you know that one of the first Crisis Staffs established

Page 12555

 1     in Bosnia-Herzegovina was established by the Presidency of the Socialist

 2     Republic of BiH?

 3        A.   No, I don't.  I have never heard of a Crisis Staff established by

 4     the Presidency.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 6     1D108.

 7        Q.   Sir, this is -- these are the minutes of the 35th Session of the

 8     Presidency of the Socialist Republic of BiH held on 21 September, 1991.

 9             You can see the registration number up there.  And on the last

10     page, if necessary, I can show you the signature of the president of the

11     Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, and of the general secretary of the

12     Presidency, Mile Akmadzic.

13             Can you see it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let us show page 2 to the witness, please.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] You can see item 3 and that is the fifth

19     paragraph from the top.  It says:  "The Presidency established the Crisis

20     Staff that consisted of Ejub Ganic, Biljana Plavsic, Franjo Borac, the

21     minister of peoples defence, and the minister of the interior, and the

22     commander of the territorial defence, Colonel General

23     Drago Vokosauljevic, and the meeting was held on the premises of the

24     Presidency and the -- it will be -- assisted by ministries and other

25     organs and organisations in the republic.

Page 12556

 1        A.   I see it.  I said I didn't know that the Presidency established a

 2     Crisis Staff.  This document shows that it did.  But it is also a fact

 3     that this Presidency is a multi-ethnic Presidency and the Crisis Staff

 4     too, and it consists of representatives of all peoples and all political

 5     powers or parties in the Presidency; whereas, the Crisis Staff at

 6     municipal level and the Crisis Staffs established by political parties

 7     are essentially mono-ethnic Crisis Staffs that were in fact parallel

 8     government authorities.  Whether this Crisis Staff is a parallel

 9     government authority I don't know.  I can't comment on that.  But the

10     ones I mentioned certainly were mono-ethnic.

11        Q.   Sir, I only showed you this because you said that Crisis Staffs

12     were illegal bodies per se.  This is the reason for my showing you this.

13        A.   I appreciate what you showed me and this is a fact.  But can I

14     only reiterate that the Crisis Staffs constituted by political parties at

15     municipal level were certainly parallel government bodies and that's a

16     fact.

17        Q.   At any rate, given the fact that the Presidency constituted a

18     Crisis Staff there must have been a legal foundation for the

19     establishment of such a body.  You will agree with me there.

20        A.   I will not.  There was no legal foundation for the establishment

21     of mono-ethnic Crisis Staffs that were -- that were under the influence

22     of political parties and they shouldn't have been established in such a

23     way.

24        Q.   Sir, you are insisting on the composition of the Crisis Staffs;

25     whereas, I am insisting on the legal basis for the establishment of such

Page 12557

 1     a body.  I am not dealing with the question whether or not a Crisis Staff

 2     was -- was made up representatives of one people or several peoples and

 3     the like.  But you will agree with me that the Crisis Staff as a body was

 4     provided for by laws and regulations given the fact that the Presidency

 5     itself, as early as September 1991, that is, the highest government body

 6     in the republic established such a Crisis Staff.  I am asking you whether

 7     you agree with me or not.

 8        A.   Not fully.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Speaking about this, it's a fact, isn't it, that at

10     every SJB, including the one headed by you, there was a department for

11     the wartime establishment of the ministry, right?

12        A.   There was no department for the wartime organisation.  But there

13     was a department called Department of Defence Preparations.

14             That department engaged in certain activities to facilitate the

15     mobilisation of the reserve police force in crisis situations.  They

16     would supply equipment and train personnel for crisis situations but

17     not -- they were not focussed on war and wartime conditions; although,

18     that also could have been one of the objectives of that department.

19        Q.   And that department also organised or took part in the

20     organisation of the MUP or making plans for that in wartime situation or

21     in imminent threat of war, right?

22        A.   Among other things, yes.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

24     document 1D034351.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

Page 12558

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, this document is dated the 2nd of October,

 3     1991.  It's a coded dispatch which was sent from the MUP of the Socialist

 4     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was signed by the Assistant Minister

 5     of the interior, Mr. Avdo Hebib.  It was sent out to all the CSBs and all

 6     SJBs as well as the SUP of Sarajevo, and therefore I assume that you also

 7     received this document.

 8             It is about the very thing we were speaking about, the Department

 9     of Defence Preparations.  It says the staffing issues wartime

10     organisation of the police, et cetera.

11             Have you seen this document?

12        A.   I believe that I received it as an SJB chief.  I haven't seen it

13     for 19 years.  I don't remember the document, really, but I believe that

14     I got it, because I must have.

15        Q.   Do you need minute to review it and to jog your memory and then I

16     will ask you some questions.

17        A.   All right.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours, please, I think you should note

19     there's a -- I believe, a mistake in the English translation.  It's

20     probably not important.  It says the 3rd of October.  It should be the

21     2nd, from looking at the original.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Have you refreshed your memory?

25        A.   I read it through.

Page 12559

 1        Q.   This document relates to what I have just said, the Defence

 2     preparations of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3     It also shows that the MUP monitored the situation with regard to

 4     staffing, the wartime organisation of the police in the Socialist

 5     Republic of BiH, and it puts forward some views and observations

 6     regarding that; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I agree.

 8        Q.   Look at the fifth paragraph from the top.  It says:  "The

 9     Sarajevo police stations shall submit one copy of this dispatch

10     containing the above data to the Sarajevo SUP."

11             Can you see it?

12        A.   It's the last paragraph of the first page.

13        Q.   Could you please just repeat your first answer?  I asked you

14     whether you saw that but you answered too fast.  I wasn't able to switch

15     off my microphone.

16        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It's the last paragraph on page 1, about

17     police stations in Sarajevo.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there's no objection, I seek to

20     tender this document.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  No objection, if Your Honours, please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D336, Your Honours.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

25     1D034354.

Page 12560

 1        Q.   Sir, this is yet another document of the MUP of the Socialist

 2     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The date is 31st of January, 1992.

 3     It's an open dispatch, not coded, and it was signed by Assistant Minister

 4     for Internal Affairs, Mr. Jusuf Pusina.  This document too was sent to

 5     all CSBs, SJBs, and the Sarajevo SUP.  You see that in the heading?

 6        A.   Yes, I see that, and it's correct.  That's what it says.

 7        Q.   Do you remember receiving this document?

 8        A.   I must have received it.  I don't remember the specific document

 9     and its contents, but based on the position that I held at the time, I

10     had to receive this document.

11        Q.   Shall I give you a couple of seconds to go over this document to

12     refresh your memory?

13        A.   Yes.

14             It's not entirely clear ...

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the -- this be zoomed in so

16     that the witness can read it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was typed up on a typewriter

18     and then the document was photocopied so that's why it's so unclear.  But

19     I have understood the gist of the document.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Yes, it's a MUP instruction about abiding by the order for

22     providing information, right?

23        A.   Yes.  Police just like any other established organisation, has

24     its own methodology of how, when, and who communicates with whom and who

25     requests information from whom and so on, and I can see from this

Page 12561

 1     document that it addresses the issue of some people not following the

 2     established practice and order.

 3        Q.   I absolutely agree with you.  This is how I understood this

 4     document too.

 5             In addition to that, in paragraph 4, in the last sentence, it

 6     says:  "MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, insists

 7     on receiving full and timely information about all security-related

 8     events."

 9             Right?

10        A.   Yes.  And that was legal duty of chiefs of all CSBs and SJBs.

11     This is what they had to do under the law.  That's a fact.

12        Q.   And in this document, the MUP insists that the procedure for

13     providing information be respected, both within specialised lines of work

14     and in the sense of hierarchy.

15        A.   Yes, the hierarchy, both horizontal and vertical had to be

16     respected, and Mr. Pusina was assistant minister for police affairs, and

17     he must have seen that there were some deficiencies in the system;

18     therefore, he issued this instruction ordering that all deficiencies and

19     faults be removed.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections I tender

21     this document into evidence.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  No objections, if Your Honours, please.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D337, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:

Page 12562

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, during your evidence on Friday, you and I

 2     disagreed on the status of the secretariat of the interior of Sarajevo.

 3     Do you remember that we had opposing views on that?

 4        A.   Yes.  I remember that we did not agree on all matters, but I

 5     don't know what exactly you have in mind now.

 6        Q.   Sir, my position is that all stations of public security from the

 7     territory of the town of Sarajevo were within the Sarajevo SUP and that

 8     via the Sarajevo SUP, they came under the Sarajevo CSB.

 9        A.   I have full respect for your position, but it is not correct.

10     And I will repeat it once again.

11             The centre of CSBs, there were 21 stations, and within it, the

12     city stations were not particularly outside of it.  And the Sarajevo SUP

13     was part of the organisational structure of the Sarajevo CSB.  This is

14     what I said on Friday, and this is what I'm repeating now.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the court usher assist me,

16     please.

17        Q.   I will give you an excerpt from a document, but let me ask you

18     this first.

19             Have you read the rule-book on the internal organisations of the

20     MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        A.   Yes, I have read it.  I don't know what exactly you have in mind,

22     but I certainly read it.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is P850.

24        Q.   I gave this to the witness so as to give him the entire text.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we turn to page 5, please, in

Page 12563

 1     e-court.  Page 5.

 2             MR. DI FAZIO:  Could I know which Article we're going to deal

 3     with?  If you to just tell me the number, then I --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Article 6.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thanks.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the corresponding

 7     page in English, if there is an translation.

 8        Q.   See, sir, in Article 6 of this rule-book on internal organisation

 9     it says that:

10             "Exceptionally within the centre of security services of

11     Sarajevo, there shall be a Secretariat of Internal Affairs of Sarajevo

12     for the territory of municipalities which comprise the town of Sarajevo

13     and within which there are public security stations established for the

14     territory of the municipalities which comprise the city of Sarajevo."

15             This means that the municipality where you were the chief and

16     which comprised the group of municipalities within the city of Sarajevo

17     came under the secretariat of the interior for the city of Sarajevo.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12564

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

 8     first page of this document, please.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21        Q.   Sir, it is a fact, isn't it, that the Law on The Interior Affairs

22     of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at that time, in

23     1992, still had the term "secretariat" in its text, not the ministry.  It

24     was called the republic secretariat not the republic ministry.

25     Regardless of the fact that in common life people frequently addressed it

Page 12565

 1     as the ministry.  However, the law spoke of the secretariat.

 2             Do you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember that, and I remember that that was the term used

 4     by the law.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 16,

 6     which is page 19 in e-court, and we need Article 29.

 7             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, there's a part of the text

 8     that I think needs to be redacted.  And that is at line 14 where the

 9     witness reveals his -- his occupation and position.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I agree.  I'm sorry.  It was the witness who -- who

11     mentioned it first and then I -- I -- I -- I repeated.  I'm really sorry.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] I apologise, sir.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes, I missed the actual part in the question as

14     well.  I'm sorry.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  So both parts need to be redacted.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] See, sir, Article 29 speaks about the Sarajevo

19     CSB, and it establishes the organisational units that the Sarajevo CSB

20     has.  And then under 1 it says:  "The public security services sector

21     comprises the following organisational units," and then they go on to

22     enumerate those units?

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And then on the following page, which is page 20 in e-court,

Page 12566

 1     we're still within the same Article, Article 29, and here they go on to

 2     enumerate other organisational units of the Sarajevo CSB.  And under item

 3     2, you see that there is a department for affairs of aliens.  And then

 4     under 3, we have the department for materiel and financial affairs.  And

 5     then under 4, we have the secretariat of the interior of Sarajevo.  And

 6     it says under 4:  "Within the secretariat of the interior for Sarajevo

 7     there shall be following organisational units."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then under (a) we see the police stations enumerated, the

11     ones that you mentioned in your evidence on Friday.  And that under (b)

12     we have the sector for affairs and tasks aimed at preventing and

13     detecting crime.  And then under (c), we have department for affairs and

14     tasks relating to passport and travel documents regulations.  And then

15     under (d) and further on, they go on to enumerate public security

16     stations.

17             Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see page 21 in e-court,

20     which is the continuation of this Article.

21        Q.   So under item 4 of Article 29, we see that they mention the

22     secretariat of the interior of Sarajevo.  And then they go on to

23     enumerate all the organisational units of the Sarajevo SUP.  Isn't that

24     right?

25        A.   I can't see that in this document, but I see it in the one that's

Page 12567

 1     in front of me.

 2        Q.   Well, that's precisely why I gave you the photocopy of the

 3     document so that can you follow through the entire document as I'm

 4     putting my questions to you because the monitor will only show you page

 5     by page.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted).  But you see the public security

11     station that you were the chief of.  And further in this Article, under

12     5, we see the Breza SJB, under 6 we have Vojnica SJB.  Under 7 we have

13     Han Pijesak SJB.  And under 8 we have Kazinovik SJB?

14             Sir, based on this document we can see that what I am claiming,

15     that the Sarajevo SJBs, at least according to this document, came under

16     the Sarajevo SUP; right?

17        A.   Yes.  Looking at this document, one would say so, but that's not

18     how it was in practice.  It absolutely wasn't.  I would like to have the

19     entire document on organisation of the Sarajevo CSB so that we can see

20     what the position of SJBs was within the Sarajevo CSB.  You can see that

21     all of this is mentioned as one whole within the Sarajevo CSB.

22        Q.   Sir, I have a document here and it's 480 pages long.  These are

23     the regulations on the internal organisation of the secretariat of the

24     republic.  And I will give it to you for you to read with pleasure, but

25     for reasons of time restraints, I must continue.

Page 12568

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I wonder if, before you move on to

 2     something else, if we could just crystallise the points on which you and

 3     the witness seem to have different opinions, because it's not quite clear

 4     to me.  I thought your point was that all the CSBs were subordinated to

 5     the Sarajevo CSB.  And -- and so that there was sort of only an indirect

 6     link between the CSBs in the countryside with the MUP in Sarajevo,

 7     because the CSBs outside Sarajevo would have to go through the CSB in

 8     Sarajevo in order to get to the MUP.

 9             But can you please just make it clear on the points that we have

10     to -- to take note of.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  I understand, Your Honours.  I will gladly

12     do that.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, we must clarify, both of us, matters to the

14     Trial Chamber as best we can.

15             It's a fact that the MUP of the Socialist Republic of BiH

16     consisted of nine Security Services Centres, CSBs, one of which was the

17     CSB of Sarajevo; correct?

18        A.   Correct.  That's a fact.

19        Q.   As opposed to the other eight CSBs, only the Sarajevo CSB, in its

20     structure, had an organisational unit called the SUP of Sarajevo or

21     secretariat of the interior; correct?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   When I say Sarajevo SUP, I mean the secretariat of the interior

24     of Sarajevo, the head of which, at the time, was Mr. Mico Stanisic;

25     correct?

Page 12569

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Within the CSB of Sarajevo, as well as in all other CSBs, there

 3     were organisational units called public security stations or SJBs.  But

 4     in Sarajevo, apart from SJBs, there was also this organisational unit

 5     called the secretariat of the interior of the city of Sarajevo.  Correct?

 6        A.   That is correct.  The CSB of Sarajevo comprised the territories

 7     of 21 municipalities in the Sarajevo region.  Every Municipal Assembly

 8     had one public security station, SJB.  21 SJBs, the Sarajevo SUP, and the

 9     other organisational units from the CSB, including the SUP, made up the

10     CSB of Sarajevo.

11        Q.   Where you and I differ is my position that all municipal SJBs

12     from -- from the territory of the city of Sarajevo were part of the SUP

13     of Sarajevo and were linked to the CSB via that SUP.

14             You say that the SUP of the city of Sarajevo was only one

15     organisational unit; whereas, all SJBs, including the ones in the city of

16     Sarajevo, among which there was yours also, are directly linked with the

17     CSB.

18             This is where we have different opinions, right?

19        A.   I completely understand your position, but I can repeat that this

20     was how we functioned in practice.

21        Q.   A minute ago I showed you the rule-book on internal organisation,

22     and you aid greed with me that under this rule-book -- or from this

23     rule-book it follows what I say.  Namely, that the SJBs in the city of

24     Sarajevo were subordinate to the SUP of Sarajevo and only through it were

25     they linked to the CSB.  Correct?

Page 12570

 1        A.   Well, that is a possible interpretation on what we have read in

 2     this rule-book.  But we didn't function that way.  Absolutely not.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will read to you P510, which is the third

 7     page of the Law on Internal Affairs of the Republic of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 29th of June 1990.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Article 26.  Article 26,

10     paragraph 2.

11        Q.   Which says -- you can see here, in Article 26, it says the

12     secretariat of the republic rather than the ministry of the republic?

13        A.   But essentially it's the same.  This mustn't be a contentious

14     matter.  It really isn't in dispute.

15        Q.   In Article 2 -- sorry, paragraph 2 of this article says:

16             "Within the CSB of Sarajevo, the Secretariat of The interior of

17     Sarajevo is also established as an organisational unit of that centre for

18     the territories of the municipalities that make up the city of Sarajevo."

19             This, again, illustrates that my -- that my claim is covered by

20     what the law says.

21        A.   It's a fact that this is what the law says.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to move

24     on to a topic that is more directly related to the witness.  I suggest

25     that we go into private session.

Page 12571

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 12572











11 Pages 12572-12598 redacted. Private session.















Page 12599

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Since on your last appearance you would have been

15     released as a witness, it is necessary for you to make the solemn

16     declaration again.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.

20             The reason why you are back before us is that there is an

21     application to which the Trial Chamber has acceded, that the Defence be

22     permitted to ask further questions of you in cross-examination.

23             Yes.

24                           WITNESS:  ST-179 [Re-called]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 12600

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:

 2             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   I'd --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The -- to tide the record, Mr. O'Sullivan, would

 7     you, sir, please repeat for us your -- yes, I'm -- I'm just interrupting

 8     myself to go into private session, bearing in mind the protective

 9     measures that have been employed.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12601

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

12        Q.   I want to direct your attention, sir, to the 30th of September,

13     1992 for my first question, okay?

14             On that day, September 30th, 1992, did a funeral take place in

15     Vlasenica for 29 Serb soldiers who were killed on the front lines at

16     Rogosija?

17        A.   Yes.  There was a funeral.  You say it was on the 30th of

18     September, so I believe that was the date.  I think that 29 members of

19     the VRS were buried who were massacred and killed at the separation line

20     or demarcation line at Rogosija.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you attend that funeral?

22        A.   At the time, I was at the funeral, but I also secured the

23     ceremony, because the funeral took place in Vlasenica at the veteran's

24     cemetery.  There were other personalities present, so I brought in

25     additional police from other police stations to secure the place because

Page 12602

 1     tensions were high.

 2        Q.   While you were at the funeral did you speak with Dragan Nikolic?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   I'd like now to turn to the following day, October 1st, 1992, the

 5     day after the funeral.

 6             On that day, the following day, after the funeral, did you meet

 7     with Dragan Nikolic?

 8        A.   No, I didn't.  Because I was busy doing the work of chief.  I had

 9     other business to attend to.  If I transmitted orders, they were police

10     orders, but he wasn't a member of the police so there was no need for me

11     to see him or talk to him.

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. O'SULLIVAN:

14        Q.   Thank you for that, sir.  Excuse me, for my technical problems

15     here.

16             I'd like to move to another topic and ask you whether you were

17     aware whether an operation was conducted in the village of Zaklopaca in

18     mid-May 1992.  Were you aware of any such operation?

19        A.   I learned about that event only on the following day, after the

20     event.  I didn't hear about it from any other sources.  There were many

21     people wanting to leave Vlasenica, and there were buses that were taking

22     people to Kladanj.  On that day the number of people who wanted to leave

23     had risen and Zaklopaca isn't far from Vlasenica, so I heard that there

24     had been an incident down there.

25        Q.   Following that operation, this would be mid-May 1992, did Dragan

Page 12603

 1     Nikolic have a conversation with you, Miroslav Kraljevic, about the fact

 2     that there was agreement that the killings which took place during that

 3     operation should be condemned?  Did a conversation like that take place?

 4        A.   Well, it's been a long time, but I don't believe that there was

 5     such a conversation because I didn't need to speak to him about anything

 6     because at the time he was a member of the TO.  He belonged to a special

 7     unit of sorts, I don't know what exactly it was called, with the TO and

 8     later on he became a guard at Susica.  I only knew him as a citizen.

 9        Q.   I'd like to ask you now a different topic, or questions about a

10     different topic.

11             At any time in 1992, any time, did you permit members of the

12     reserve police at the SJB Vlasenica to misappropriate non-Serb houses and

13     to loot non-Serb property?

14        A.   I can say with certainty that I never permitted that, nor would I

15     have, ever.  In fact, I took rigorous measures against such members,

16     exercising the powers I had under the law.  And the measures went as far

17     as dismissing them from service or transferring them to the VRS, and

18     against some of them, criminal reports were filed but whether they were

19     followed on later, I don't know.

20        Q.   Let me ask you this question.  Did you ever permit members of the

21     special unit that was under the command of Kraljevic to misappropriate

22     non-Serb houses or loot non-Serb property?

23        A.   No.  I'm saying explicitly, and it was also the position of the

24     ministry at the time, although it was only yet being constituted.  The

25     position of the ministry [realtime transcript read in error "minister"]

Page 12604

 1     was very clear that attempts to commit crimes must be prevented, and I

 2     made an effort to control the situation to the best I could.  So nobody,

 3     either explicitly ordered, nor permitted such acts.

 4             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honours, this may be a good timed for the

 5     break.  There is one thing in the transcript.  I thought I heard the

 6     witness say he said "the position of the ministry" and the record shows

 7     "the position of the minister."  I believe he said "ministry."

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Could you ask him the question again to make sure.

 9             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Well -- but through interpretation, I heard

10     "ministry."

11             JUDGE HALL:  I see.

12             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes.

13             JUDGE HALL:  20 minutes.  [Microphone not activated]

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan, please continue.

19             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Sir, can I now direct your attention to the end of May 1992.

21     That would be the 30th or the 31st of May, 1992.  Were you aware whether

22     an operation was conducted in the village of Gradina involving the unit

23     led by Miroslav Kraljevic?

24        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I think it was at around that

25     time, late May/early June.

Page 12605

 1             A military operation was conducted by the Army of Republika

 2     Srpska, or by parts of the former JNA.  And it is most likely that that

 3     unit also participated in it.  At the time, that unit belonged to the

 4     Territorial Defence of Vlasenica.

 5        Q.   On the day of that operation, were you present at a meeting at

 6     the SJB building in Vlasenica, a meeting at -- that took part at

 7     daybreak, when the details of the Gradina operation were discussed?

 8        A.   I can't remember exactly what meeting.  But, however, during

 9     those events and that operation or action, where police partially

10     participated in some form, it is very likely that I was present at that

11     meeting but I'm not sure which meeting have you in mind.

12        Q.   All right.  Were you at a meeting attended by Dragan Nikolic,

13     Radenko Stanic, Mr. Kraljevic, Elvis Djuric, and Zoran Stupar?

14        A.   I cannot confirm that those people attended the meeting.

15     Dragan Nikolic did not have such a position as to be present at some

16     official meeting where there were representatives of the MUP or the army

17     or the like.

18        Q.   Let me ask you some questions about the Susica camp.  And I am --

19     I'll direct your attention to mid-June 1992.

20             In mid-June 1992, did Dragan Nikolic report to you and

21     Miroslav Kraljevic about the security situation at Susica?  Did that

22     happen?

23        A.   Once again, Dragan Nikolic could not inform me directly.  There

24     was simply no basis for that.  Neither he was a member of the MUP nor was

25     he eligible to inform me on anything on the basis of the subordination.

Page 12606

 1     Therefore, he never informed me or reported to me on anything.

 2             I don't remember talking to him about any security-related

 3     situations of any sort.

 4        Q.   I've heard your answer, but I'll ask you the following question

 5     and you can tell me whether confirm or deny it.

 6             Did you receive reports from Dragan Nikolic by telephone

 7     regarding the security situation at Susica?

 8        A.   No.  I did not receive any sort of reports from Dragan Nikolic

 9     because he was not subordinated to me.  If we needed any sort of report

10     from Dragan Nikolic, then it went via Territorial Defence, or, later, via

11     the Army of Republika Srpska once it was established [realtime transcript

12     read in error "sustained"].  Those were the line of communication between

13     us; me as chief of the SJB and them.  And as for me receiving reports

14     from individuals such as Dragan Nikolic directly, my answer is no.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  I just have one question about that's recorded

17     in the transcript at line 22.  The word us "sustained."  I thought I

18     heard the witness say "established."  It's not a great difference, but

19     perhaps that could be checked after court.

20        Q.   Sir, here is my next question for you.  Did you ever issue orders

21     or authorise the release of anyone from detention at Susica to undergo

22     interrogation?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you -- oh.

25        A.   Given that there were commissions within municipalities and

Page 12607

 1     various relevant institutions, there were commissions for exchange,

 2     commissions for communication with ICRC.  We, as the ministry, could not

 3     issue an order to have somebody released, exchanged, or anything else

 4     done with them.  We simply were not authorised.

 5        Q.   I've heard your answer, but I'll ask you two more questions which

 6     you can either confirm or deny.

 7             Did you ever issue orders or authorise the release of anyone

 8     detained at Susica for exchange or transfer?

 9        A.   No.  That was within the jurisdiction of the competent

10     commission.  Commission for Exchange, I think, existed within the

11     municipality, within the municipal organ.  In addition to that, they also

12     had an organ that communicated with the ICRC and that's how it was

13     established.

14        Q.   And did you ever issue orders or authorise the use of a person

15     detained at Susica for work duty?

16        A.   No.  No, as I have said, that was within the competence of

17     municipal organs who occasionally engaged them for certain works.  Given

18     that there was a warehouse of the ICRC in that region, some of them went

19     to work there, and later on, I saw them performing some work within

20     communities, within communal services.  But that all existed within a

21     municipality.

22        Q.   All right.  Between June and September 1992, did you ever visit

23     the Susica camp?

24        A.   No.  I said so last time.  I never went there for principle

25     reasons, but also because it wasn't within the competency of the

Page 12608

 1     ministry.  And I also had some principles of mine that prevented me from

 2     going there.

 3        Q.   Did Dragan Nikolic ever report to you in person at the SJB

 4     building concerning Susica camp?

 5        A.   I don't remember.  I explained already how chief of

 6     communications went to see the chief of the station to discuss

 7     security-related matters.  It is possible that he informed somebody at a

 8     lower level, but he never talked to me about that.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you a question about early July 1992.

10             In early July, did you learn whether a man named Ismet Dedic had

11     died at Susica?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   In the same -- in the same period, did you learn whether a man

14     named Mevludin Hatunic died at Susica?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Between mid-June and the end of September 1992, were you ever

17     present at any meetings of the Vlasenica Crisis Staff when Dragan Nikolic

18     reported to the Crisis Staff on the security situation at Susica?

19        A.   I never went to any Crisis Staff meetings because I was not a

20     member of the Crisis Staff.  However, the situation with the Crisis Staff

21     in Vlasenica was quite peculiar, because that Crisis Staff never really

22     started working.  Rather, it completely stopped working sometime in June,

23     when the commission of the president of the republic was established.

24     Therefore, I can't remember anything regarding those meetings, and I

25     don't think that Dragan Nikolic ever informed anybody at that level.

Page 12609

 1             Dragan Nikolic was a guard, a member of the TO.  I knew him as a

 2     private citizen.  And all his [as interpreted] channels of communication

 3     followed the institutional ones:  Chief of the station, chief of the

 4     army, and so on.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, just to be sure, the response that

 7     you just gave to counsel, did that include also meetings in the War

 8     Commissions that were established subsequently?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure which commissions you

10     have in mind.  But if we're speaking of the Dragan Nikolic, I can assure

11     you that I never attended any official meetings where he was in

12     attendance as well.  He simply wasn't the person competent enough to give

13     relevant information, relevant report on security-related matters or any

14     other issues.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  But I suppose the point that

16     counsel is making is that Mr. Nikolic was, after all, the warden of the

17     Susica camp, wasn't he?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, listen, if we have enough

19     time I would like to clarify briefly.

20             Later on, in the trial against Nikolic, it was established that

21     he was the warden of the Susica camp which wasn't true.  He was a guard

22     there, or the leader of the shift.  This is what I learned later, after I

23     did my research.  Namely, that quite a different person was the warden or

24     whatever the title given by the Crisis Staff was.  Later on, after

25     analysing the facts I established that he actually never served as a

Page 12610

 1     warden.  Rather, he was guard or the shift leader or something of that

 2     nature, depending on how that part of the service was organised.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

 4             I better give the floor back to Mr. O'Sullivan.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Perhaps one more small question, Mr. Witness.  Do

 6     you know the name of the warden then?  The name of the person you think

 7     was the warden?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, later, after analysing

 9     and after these trials started, it was established that

10     Veljko Vlasic [as interpreted] had the appointment letter issued by the

11     Crisis Staff or some other competent body at the time.  This was proven

12     later on in various investigations.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just one intervention in transcript,

15     56, 13.  It is recorded here:

16             "And all his channels of communication followed the institutional

17     ones."

18             I believe the witness said "all my channels," because from the

19     context of his answer it can be understood as -- as this is -- this is

20     referring to Dragan Nikolic where, in fact, he was referring to himself.

21             Maybe this can be clarified with the witness.

22             MR. O'SULLIVAN:

23        Q.   Sir, could you please clarify that for us.

24        A.   Yes.  Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly.

25             But all lines of communication were institutional, all my lines

Page 12611

 1     of communication.  I only communicated with institutions.  I communicated

 2     with the chief, with president of the municipality, commander of the army

 3     and so on, which is to say that Dragan Nikolic could not participate in

 4     any significant matter -- manner at that level.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And one more question about the transcript.

 6             In answering the Judges question you named the person that you

 7     thought was the warden.  You said his name was Veljko.  Could you repeat

 8     his last name, please, with a B.

 9        A.   Basic, B-a-s-i-c.

10             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Was -- did counsel for Zupljanin join in this

13     application for further cross-examination?  Can you remind me.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  We don't have questions for this witness, thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, anything arising?

17             MR. HANNIS:  I do.  Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

19        Q.   Witness 179, my name is Tom Hannis; I'm a Prosecutor.  We have

20     never met before.  I'm standing in for Mr. Olmsted who you previously

21     dealt with when you testified earlier.

22             I want to ask you, first of all, if I can find it, at page 49

23     today, Mr. O'Sullivan asked you about the funeral that took place in

24     Vlasenica at the end of September 1992.  And mentioned that tensions were

25     high, and that's why apparently you brought in extra security.

Page 12612

 1             What precisely were the tensions about?  What were you concerned

 2     about that caused you to bring in extra police?

 3        A.   Well, perhaps I did not complete that thought at the time.

 4             Since 29 local young men from Vlasenica were killed, there were

 5     tensions there among families, relatives, and friends of those who were

 6     killed.  Also, defence line at the time was weakened because many people

 7     had left the positions and so on.  This is why I asked for reinforcements

 8     in police forces from neighbouring stations so that we could properly

 9     provide security during that gathering in view of the existing tensions.

10     And also, should there be any attacks on the demarcation line, so as to

11     prevent any further escalation that.  That was the reason.

12        Q.   Was it also one of your concerns that there might be some sort of

13     retaliation against non-Serbs who still remained in Vlasenica

14     municipality?

15        A.   Among other things, yes, so as to control tensions of any sort as

16     much as possible.

17        Q.   And did that concern about non-Serbs also extend to non-Serbs who

18     were detained in Susica camp, at the end of September?

19        A.   Whatever fell within the competency of the police, yes.

20        Q.   You were asked by Mr. O'Sullivan whether you spoke to

21     Dragan Nikolic at the funeral, and you said no.

22             My question was:  After the funeral, did you have occasion to

23     walk with Minister Ostojic, the minister of information?  Do you recall

24     that?

25        A.   Whether I walked with him, I don't think I walked with him.  But

Page 12613

 1     since there were well-known persons at the funeral from the level of the

 2     republic ministry, I provided security, and it is possible that I was

 3     there at the location where they arrived and that I greeted them or did

 4     something of that sort.  But my main task was to provide security.

 5        Q.   Do you recall accompanying him or any of the other high-ranking

 6     visitors after the funeral?  Walking away from the place where the

 7     speeches were made, et cetera.

 8        A.   Well, let me try to remember.  The president, Mr. Karadzic was

 9     present at the funeral.  I didn't have an opportunity to speak to him.

10     We only received him at the stadium.  I believe that he was flown in by

11     helicopter and then we escorted him to the funeral site.  And of the

12     ministers, possibly there was Velibor Ostojic.  I may have spoken with

13     him.  But I don't remember any other persons who may have been there, but

14     certainly it was a high-risk gathering as we call it from the security

15     point of view, and we had to take adequate measures to provide security

16     for the reasons I mentioned.

17        Q.   And do you not remember anyone speaking --

18             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, I object to this.  I don't know how

19     this additional questioning arises out of my specific question on

20     cross-examination on whether or not the witness and Mr. Nikolic had a

21     conversation at that time.  We've gone quite far afield, I think, of my

22     question.

23             MR. HANNIS:  I can respond but I probably should do it out of the

24     presence of the witness.

25             JUDGE HALL:  The -- you do intend to respond to the objection, do

Page 12614

 1     you, Mr. Hannis?

 2             MR. HANNIS:  If you're inclined to grant it, I do intend to

 3     respond.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we need to hear you, so in that case, if the

 5     witness could be escorted from the courtroom.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Do you know whether the witness understands English,

 8     Mr. Hannis.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I don't know.  I have not dealt with

10     him before.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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Page 12615

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Page 12616

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16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. HANNIS:  Given what's been said, I think the redaction has to

24     start page 61, line 21.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 12617

 1             JUDGE HALL:  This witness, having been brought back, admittedly

 2     for a specific purpose, the issues now raised by Mr. Hannis, whereas, as

 3     I indicated earlier, are outside of the carefully drawn cross-examination

 4     pursued by Mr. O'Sullivan, nevertheless appear to be relevant and

 5     important, and I'm going to allow the question to -- the -- the question

 6     be put to the witness.  But inasmuch as it is -- goes outside of the --

 7     Mr. O'Sullivan's intent, we'll have a -- we -- we would allow him to --

 8     to re -- cross-examine, further cross-examine the witness on that

 9     particular point.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] So you may escort the

12     witness back.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             MR. HANNIS:

15        Q.   Sorry for that, Witness.

16             The question I started to ask was whether on the day of the

17     funeral, do you remember anyone raising the issue or the concern with you

18     about the non-Serbs detained at Susica camp and whether there might be

19     some retaliation out there.

20        A.   I don't remember any meeting about that.  As I said, I was in

21     charge of security.  If there was a meeting at another level, then there

22     may have been one at the political level, but I wasn't present.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You said at page 49, line 20 today, that

24     Dragan Nikolic wasn't a member of the police so there was no need for you

25     to talk -- to see or talk to him.

Page 12618

 1             When did Dragan Nikolic stop being a member of the police in

 2     1992?

 3        A.   He has actually never been a member of the police.  And here's

 4     why.

 5        Q.   No, no.  That's okay.  Let me follow up, and then maybe you can

 6     explain.  I want to show you an exhibit.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  P1044.

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MR. HANNIS:  It's my understanding this document is under seal,

10     Your Honours, so if we cannot broadcast it.  I'd like to look at page 3.

11     No, I'm sorry, page 4 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Sir, my English translation of this document says that at the top

13     of the page this is a list of members of the special platoon at the

14     Vlasenica SJB; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And number 1, Miroslav Kraljevic.  It's my understanding that he

17     was the commander of that special platoon?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You see number 23 on the list?  That's Dragan Nikolic.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And if we could go to the last page, just so you can see the

22     stamp and signature, that's your -- your name and your signature, isn't

23     it?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12619

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, that's one.  I want to show you another one.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Could we look at Exhibit P1045.

 6        Q.   And this appears to be a list, Vlasenica SJB, list of reserve

 7     workers.  Who have worked at this police station in September 1992.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Again, this is another document under seal.  If we

 9     could not broadcast it, I'm sorry.  If we could go to the last page.

10        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to look at that.

11             Again, your signature?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And number 90 -- number 97 is Dragan Nikolic.  How about number

14     92, Goran Tesic.  Is he also a member of the reserve police in

15     September 1992 in Vlasenica?

16        A.   I don't know.  You can believe me that there are so many names

17     here ...

18        Q.   Well, you wouldn't be signing an authorisation to pay people who

19     were not members of the police, would you?

20        A.   Correct.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis, just to be sure what does this list

22     exactly show?  Because, on the title, as far as can I see, it's a list of

23     reserve workers or workers who have worked at this police station in

24     September 1992.

25             MR. HANNIS:  It's my --

Page 12620

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So are we just talking about members of the

 2     police or people who have done work at the place or ...

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Our position, Your Honour, is that these are reserve

 4     police who --

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could we please clarify this with the witness.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  All right.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us what these people were they cleaning ladies,

 8     secretaries?  Something other than reserve policemen?

 9        A.   The police had its active members and its reserve members, both

10     before and at this time.  This is a list of reserve police members,

11     because we were at war, or there was an imminent threat of war so that

12     all members who were conscripts had to be used somewhere.

13             One of the way of using them was to include them in the reserve

14     police forces.  Another way was to send them to the VRS.

15             So this is a list of the reserve police force.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you Mr. Hannis.  It was just to be sure so

18     that no doubt is left behind.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Let me ask one more question that may help in that regard.  I see

21     the persons named at item 94, 95, and 96, there's an indication that they

22     only worked 15 days out of the month and it looks like they only got half

23     the pay.

24             Am I reading that correctly?

25        A.   That's possible.  Indeed, this is what it says.

Page 12621

 1        Q.   At page 50, line 6, Mr. O'Sullivan asked you about the village of

 2     Zaklopaca and events there in mid-May of 1992.

 3             You said you learned about that event only on the following day.

 4     Do you recall who told you about it.

 5        A.   I can't remember who exactly told me, but I received information

 6     about there having been an incident at that place by the name of

 7     Zaklopaca in the Milici municipality.

 8             Possibly my colleague, the chief at Milici at the time, let me

 9     know.  I cannot be sure, but possibly he informed me.

10        Q.   At page 50, line 25, you were asked about whether you permitted

11     any members of the reserve police to misappropriate non-Serb houses or

12     loot non-Serb property.  You said you never permitted that.  And you

13     said:  In fact, you took rigorous measures against such member.

14             Can you give us any details about that, about any of the

15     personnel whom you took action against for that kind of conduct?  How

16     many; who; what measures you took.

17        A.   Yes.  During that time-period, we tried to take measures to the

18     extent that we were able to given the wartime conditions.  One of the

19     sanctions for those who were police members was to dismiss them from

20     service and transfer them to the VRS.  There are documents to corroborate

21     that, and during my previous testimony I showed that I dismissed certain

22     persons because of their actions, and one of the things they did was

23     looting and breaking into other peoples' homes.

24        Q.   At [Microphone not activated] -- I'm sorry.  At page 52, line 24

25     today, Mr. O'Sullivan asked you if you were at a meeting attended by

Page 12622

 1     Dragan Nikolic, Radenko Stanic, Mr. Kraljevic, Elvis Djuric, and

 2     Zoran Stupar.  You said in your answer Dragan Nikolic did not have such a

 3     position as to be present at some official meeting where there were

 4     representatives of the MUP or the army or the like.

 5             I'm -- I don't understand what position would Dragan Nikolic have

 6     to have to be at a meeting with you, Mr. Stanic, Mr. Kraljevic,

 7     Elvis Djuric, who we saw was also on the list of reserve workers at the

 8     MUP, and Zoran Stupar.  What position would he have to have to be at that

 9     meeting?

10        A.   I have already stated several times that Dragan Nikolic was a

11     guard.  Given the hierarchy of any one institution, he was not relevant

12     to be at meetings at any level, be it a meeting of the chiefs or a

13     meeting of the MUP of the municipality or the army, or anything.  So I

14     have never been at a meeting where Dragan Nikolic could pass on

15     information or give his view on a certain situation, because he didn't

16     have a position of authority.  He didn't -- he -- didn't have the

17     authority to command anybody.

18        Q.   What position did Elvis Djuric have that put him at a higher

19     level than Dragan Nikolic to be at such a meeting?

20        A.   Careful, because what probably Dragan Nikolic stated that he was

21     somewhere and Elvis Djuric too with me or someone else.  That's very

22     doubtful, because I don't really remember any such meeting where they

23     could be present and discussed things and take part in anything.

24             So I cannot accept that as relevant.  Whoever stated that maybe

25     wanted too overstate his own importance; for what reason, I don't know

Page 12623

 1     and I can't go into that.  But there haven't been any official meetings

 2     that he attended nor was he able to deal with such things.  He was a

 3     guard.

 4        Q.   Well, no one said in the question that this was an official

 5     meeting.  Is there some reason that a reserve policeman cannot meet with

 6     you as chief of the police about all kinds of police matters?

 7        A.   Well, they could, but I don't see why I should have discussed any

 8     sort of strategy with them.

 9        Q.   Okay.  At page 53, line 9, in an answer about whether

10     Dragan Nikolic reported to you, you said that he was neither a member of

11     the MUP nor was he able -- or was he eligible to inform me on anything.

12     And I think you went to say that he was a member of the TO.  When did the

13     TO cease to exist in the Republika Srpska?  Wasn't it after the VRS came

14     into existence?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   And we've seen evidence -- I think the VRS was created around

17     mid-may and the JNA had left by May 20th or 21st.  So what happened to

18     those people who had been in the TO?  Didn't they either go to the army

19     or to the police?

20        A.   Pursuant to the decision of the Presidency or, I don't know,

21     maybe the president, the VRS was established and automatically the

22     members of the TO became members of the VRS.

23        Q.   At page 55, line 8, you were asked about whether you ever visited

24     Susica camp between June and September 1992, and you said no, you never

25     went there for principle reasons.

Page 12624

 1             Let me show you, first of all, Exhibit P1074.

 2             Witness, this is a document that appears to be signed by you,

 3     dated the 1st of September, 1992, and it's to the CSB.

 4             Again, this one is confidential under seal so could we not

 5     broadcast it.

 6             And you're reporting about a holding centre in Vlasenica

 7     municipality.  Is this report about Susica camp?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if -- if I understand correctly how -- if you didn't visit

10     Susica camp, where did you get the information that you put in this

11     report to the CSB?

12        A.   Well, you know how institutions communicate with each other.  The

13     service in charge of the camp, we requested -- or from them we requested

14     information -- information, which we then forwarded to the ministry.

15        Q.   How far was the camp from your SJB in Vlasenica?  Approximately

16     how many kilometres away.

17        A.   Possibly 2 and a half to 3 kilometres.

18        Q.   You've said you never went there for principle reasons or reasons

19     of principles.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What were your principles that prevented you from going that

22     camp?

23        A.   Perhaps this is not the best occasion, but I'll tell you, I was

24     born and I come from the region where, during World War II, all residents

25     had been taken to the Jasenovac camp.  Villages, families were destroyed,

Page 12625

 1     and I am an offspring of one such family.  So I have this kind of

 2     position vis-a-vis the camps.  That was my principled reason why I

 3     refused to go there.  I did not support the establishment of that camp at

 4     the time.  I said during my last evidence that I fought to the best of my

 5     abilities using all means at my disposal to have that conclude and

 6     resolved as quickly as possible and in as fair a way as possible, for the

 7     entire region.

 8        Q.   Well, you're not saying the camp at Susica was like the World War

 9     II camp you're talking about, are you?

10        A.   No.  It's just that the concept of a camp, the way I perceive it,

11     in my head, is a catastrophe.  This is the position I had ever since my

12     childhood.

13        Q.   And recording the question at page 56, line 5, you were asked

14     about Crisis Staff meetings.  Is it -- am I correct to say you never

15     attended any?

16        A.   No.  Given that I was not a member of the Crisis Staff.  I have

17     already said that the Crisis Staff in Vlasenica sort of did not really

18     exist.  In June the commission of the president of the republic was

19     established, and this is when I started attending meetings as a

20     representative of president of the municipality.  And prior to that, I

21     never attended the meetings of the Crisis Staff, because I did not hold a

22     position within the ministry.

23        Q.   After you became chief of police, did you attend any meetings of

24     either the Crisis Staff or the body that succeeded it, whether it was

25     called a War Presidency or a War Commission?  Did you attend any of those

Page 12626

 1     meetings in Vlasenica?

 2        A.   All meetings that were held at the level of the institution where

 3     I thought that I, as a member of the Ministry of Interior, needed to be

 4     present, yes, I attended them.

 5        Q.   Do you not recall Dragan Nikolic attending any of those meetings

 6     to report about the situation at Susica camp?

 7        A.   No.  Dragan Nikolic was a guard, a shift leader.  He could not

 8     attend such meetings.  He could convey his report or information to one

 9     of his superiors for that superior to report at such a meeting.  But

10     Dragan Nikolic never attended such meetings because he was a simple

11     guard.

12        Q.   Well, you don't know about whether or not he attended any

13     meetings that you were not present at.

14        A.   Well, I can't know.  But he was not a type of a person who could

15     competently inform some gathering at a certain level.

16        Q.   Why do you say that?

17        A.   Because there are procedures.  There is subordination within the

18     work of institutions.  It was like that before the war and it is like

19     that now.  There's hierarchy, there is subordination.  We have a guard, a

20     shift leader, commander, and then all the way up to, say, general.  So

21     Dragan Nikolic could have informed only his immediate superior and then

22     that person could have informed the others, and ...

23        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, who was his immediate superior

24     vis-a-vis Susica camp?  Was that Mr. Basic?

25        A.   I don't know.  But I suppose so, if he was the warden.  I don't

Page 12627

 1     know whether there was a -- anybody in between them.  But his ultimate

 2     superior, yes, it was that person.

 3        Q.   Did Mr. Basic ever inform at those meetings you attended about

 4     the conditions or situation at Susica camp?

 5        A.   No.  They belonged to the Territorial Defence.  And if they

 6     reported to anyone, then, initially, those reports were sent to the

 7     Crisis Staff or similar institution.  They did not report to the ministry

 8     or the SJB, because they were not duty-bound to do that.

 9        Q.   No.  But my question was, did Mr. Basic report at any -- any of

10     those, either Crisis Staff, War Presidency, or War Commission meetings,

11     about the situation at Susica camp because we know the TO was no longer

12     in existence after late May.  So it wouldn't have been reporting to the

13     TO.

14        A.   Yes.  But the competent municipal organ which took over the

15     duties of the Territorial Defence could have.

16        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one rather observation, Your Honours.  On page

19     65, line 6, my learned friend asked when Nikolic stopped being member of

20     police in 1992.  The witness said he was actually never been a member of

21     the police and here's why, and then he was cut short by Mr. Hannis, and

22     Mr. Hannis says let me follow up and then maybe you can explain.

23             And we were -- the explanation never came.  I don't know if that

24     interests my learned friend or it interests the Trial Chamber, but that

25     is the observation that I have.

Page 12628

 1             Thank you.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I maintain that he was not a member

 6     of police, and this is why:  He was a member of a special unit within the

 7     Territorial Defence.  The moment the Army of Republika Srpska was

 8     established, which was in mid-May, all members of the Territorial Defence

 9     had to become members of the Army of Republika Srpska or another

10     legitimate institution was the Ministry of the Interior.  They could have

11     become members of the MUP.  Whenever a member of that special unit within

12     the Territorial Defence did not wish to join the Army of Republika

13     Srpska, a political decision was made outside of the Ministry of the

14     Interior that such units would be attached to SJBs.  This was done

15     without consulting SJBs and we were not happy with it, and we informed

16     the ministry about it.

17             Later on, the minister issued an order whereby all such political

18     units were removed from the Ministry of the Interior.  Dragan Nikolic

19     started out immediately as a guard at Susica, or as something else.  And

20     he never performed, nor was he ever under the command of the SJB.  There

21     are many people called Dragan Nikolic.  It's a very common name and last

22     name.  So how come he appears on that list?  At that time for somebody to

23     receive --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, there's something I think that needs to be

25     redacted from the witness's answer.

Page 12629

 1             Please continue.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, in order for somebody

 3     to be paid out a kind of a compensation, that person had to be either a

 4     member of the army or a member of the MUP.  There was no third option to

 5     pay out this so-called salary, which was really nothing, given the

 6     inflation.

 7             So if that is the person, Dragan Nikolic mentioned in this list,

 8     it's possible that he was carried over automatically, by automatous, in

 9     order to be paid out some sort of a compensation because he was neither a

10     member of the army nor a member of the MUP, but he needed to be paid out

11     some sort of a compensation, so this was the factual situation.  He was a

12     member of the Territorial Defence or, rather, the body that succeeded the

13     Territorial Defence and he performed security in the Susica region.

14             Another matter that I remember now that we're talking about

15     Dragan Nikolic is this:  When the security of the so-called camp Susica

16     or the holding centre stopped functioning, I remember seeing him as a

17     member of the military police either within the corps or within the

18     brigade, I'm not sure.  That is the explanation.

19             MR. HANNIS:  The answer gives rise to one question from me, if I

20     may.

21        Q.   If that's the case, sir, why would you sign the pay sheet for

22     people who were not working for MUP as chief of station?

23        A.   I said if this is that person.  Nikolic is a very frequent last

24     name, and I couldn't know hundreds of them.  So the only reason was for

25     the person to receive a compensation he needed to be either a member of

Page 12630

 1     the army or a member of the MUP, but I cannot state with certainty

 2     whether this is, indeed, the Dragan Nikolic.  I don't know.  There are

 3     many Nikolics mentioned on that list alone.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. O'Sullivan, did you wish to avail yourself of the right to

 6     cross-examine on that point, on controversy between yourself and

 7     Mr. Hannis?

 8             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  No, thank you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Well, sir, we thank you for your return to the

10     Tribunal, and now again it is time for me to release you, and we wish you

11     a safe journey back to your home.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             MR. HANNIS:  And when he is gone, Your Honour, may I take the

15     remaining two minutes to address some procedural and --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I was about to ask you about the latest

17     communication that I would have seen emanating from your office

18     indicating that have you some witnesses difficulties.  Where are we --

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, we do, Your Honour.

20             First of all, though, could I do something covering the previous

21     witness, ST-155.  I believe Mr. Di Fazio wanted to tendered the 92 ter

22     package but failed to do so.  Those are 65 ter numbers 10391.01 through

23     .12, and 1067.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Regarding scheduling.

Page 12631

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  This will be Exhibit P1500.1

 2     through 1500.14, Your Honours.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry.  Regarding scheduling, we originally had

 4     intended to start this witness with ST-137.  You will have seen, I think,

 5     from the communications that he had some surgery recently.  We were told

 6     that he is supposed to see a doctor today, and we we're going to get a

 7     report about whether or not he is going to be able to travel.  I don't

 8     have information yet.  I don't know how soon we'll receive it.  Frankly,

 9     I have some doubts that given the logistics for travel for this

10     particular witness that we'll be able to get him before the end of the

11     week, even if he is medically passed to travel.

12             We also had scheduled for this week ST-215.  I think you will

13     have seen from the communications that Victim and Witness was not able to

14     arrange all the necessary paperwork in connection with his travel, and he

15     won't be here in time to testify this week.

16             Lastly, regarding scheduling, in connection with ST-137, there's

17     still a pending matter for you to resolve regarding his 92 ter status and

18     whether the amalgamated statement is going to be permitted to be used as

19     the 92 ter and how much time we'll have for examination.  And the last

20     one is Ewa Tabeau, the expert who is scheduled to testify before the

21     break, possibly, and I think there is a matter pending regarding her

22     report or her position as an expert.

23             That's all I have, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise today to resume when?

25             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, if we get information by the end of the

Page 12632

 1     day we could convey it to you.  Best case scenario is I don't think he

 2     could be here before Thursday.  So either we have no witness for the rest

 3     of week or we might have ST-137 late in the week, Thursday at the

 4     earliest.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  But the position is that there is nobody for

 6     tomorrow or Wednesday?

 7             MR. HANNIS:  No.  We've tried to bring some other people forward

 8     or move some around and have not been able to do so.  And some that are

 9     scheduled in August, I think in fairness to the Defence, if we tried to

10     call one of those big witnesses now they would have a legitimate

11     complaint that they haven't had sufficient notice to prepare.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment provisionally to -- I

13     think we're scheduled to begin -- to sit on the afternoon on Thursday.

14             In this courtroom at 2.15 on Thursday afternoon; but, of course,

15     persons should be alert to being notified in the usual manner as to

16     whether that fixture has to be cancelled.

17             Thank you.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of July,

20                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.