1 Monday, 12 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case the IT-08-91-T, Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we begin by taking the appearances for today, please.
12 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm Tom Hannis along
13 with Case Manager Jasmina Bosnjakovic for the Prosecution. Thank you.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
16 Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
18 Defence, Igor Pantelic. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Hannis.
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'm ready to proceed with our next
22 witness, who is ST-159, Slobodan Markovic.
23 While he's coming in, I would indicate to the Court with relation
24 to one of the exhibits I propose to show this witness. It is tab 10 in
25 the list I've sent around. It's Exhibit P1137 already in evidence, but
1 in preparing I noticed that the English translation which is in e-court
2 only has the first two pages. There's a third page that needs to be
3 uploaded, and we're just seeking leave of the Court, if there's no
4 objection from the Defence, to add that third page of the English
5 translation and upload it into e-court.
6 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, did I -- do I understand it's already an
8 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HALL: Why -- the -- just a slight curiosity as to how it
10 would have been exhibited with a missing page?
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the original B/C/S was complete, and in
12 e-court it was simply the third page of the English translation
13 inadvertently wasn't uploaded, only the first two pages. We've sent an
14 e-mail to the Legal Officer and the Registry Officer indicating our
15 desire to do that. And to the Defence as well. So it's merely -- I
16 think it's merely just an administrative matter. I'm trying to make the
17 record complete.
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, thank you.
19 We had gotten communication that for the record the OTP was going
20 to respond this morning to the application for provisional release of
21 number one accused.
22 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.
23 I wanted to advise the Court that the Prosecution does not intend
24 to file anything in writing. I was asked to inform the Court of the
25 Prosecution's general position opposing provisional release. However, at
1 this stage of the case and given Mr. Stanisic's previous record, we take
2 no position and leave it to the discretion of Your Honours.
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. So noted.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness. First of all, do you
5 here me in a language you understand?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear you
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And thank you for coming to the
9 Tribunal to give your testimony.
10 You are about to read a solemn declaration, by which witnesses
11 commit themselves to tell the truth. I need to point out that the solemn
12 declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalties
13 of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this
15 Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
16 solemn declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: SLOBODAN MARKOVIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, sir, you may be seated.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: And could we begin by asking you to state your
24 full name and your date and place of birth, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Slobodan Markovic. I
1 was born on the 14th of February, 1958, in Sarajevo, in what was then the
2 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Markovic. And what is your
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your profession today?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in the Ministry of the
8 Interior of Republika Srpska as an inspector working war crimes.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what was your occupation in 1992?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was one of the managers in the
11 Security Services Centre in Sarajevo.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Now, sir, is this your first
13 testimony before this Tribunal? Have you ever given testimony before,
14 here or in any tribunal in your country on these matters?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I'm
16 testifying before the Tribunal in The Hague. I have not given testimony
17 anywhere. But on the 26th of February, 2008, your investigator,
18 Mr. Barry from Canada, came to see me in my office in Bijeljina where I
19 gave a statement to him. And there is a CD-ROM with a record of the
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let me explain to you briefly how the proceedings
22 will unfold here.
23 You have been called as a witness by the Prosecutor, who is
24 sitting on your right, and the Prosecutor has asked, all together, for
25 three hours for your examination-in-chief. After that, counsel for
1 Mr. Stanisic, sitting to your left, has asked for four hours. And Mr. --
2 the counsel for Mr. Zupljanin asked for two hours and a half to
3 cross-examine you.
4 When Mr. Pantelic, the counsel of Mr. Zupljanin is through, we
5 will give the floor back to the Prosecutor who will have a chance to some
6 final questions in light of the answers you have given to your
7 cross-examination. And after that, and in between, the Judges may all --
8 may, at all times put questions to. After that, your testimony will be
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now, one practical matter. Recordings here are
12 taking on video-tape and the tapes have to be changed every 90 minutes.
13 So that means that every hour and a half we have a break of about
14 20 minutes, and then we continue. The proceedings today will go from
15 9.00 to quarter to 2.00 and will resume tomorrow.
16 That's all I have to say for the moment. Thank you very much.
17 And I will give the floor now to Mr. Hannis for the Prosecutor.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examination by Mr. Hannis:
20 Q. Good morning, Witness.
21 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, I would indicate --
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
23 MR. HANNIS: -- at page 4, line 12, the witness gave an answer
24 about being interviewed by an investigator, Mr. Barry from Canada. I
25 would indicate that that is an investigator named Barry Hogan who works
1 for the Office of the Prosecutor and not for the Chambers.
2 Q. Mr. Markovic, I understand you're presently working for the MUP
3 and you were working for the MUP in 1992. Can you tell us briefly when
4 you first began working for the MUP and what education -- educational
5 training you had before you began work there?
6 A. Before I started working in the Ministry of the Interior of what
7 was Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, I completed the Faculty for
8 Physical Education in Sarajevo. And then for three and a half years I
9 taught in a school. And later on I transferred to the police; that was
10 on the 4th of August, 1987.
11 Q. And in 1991, where were you working and what position did you
13 A. In 1991, I worked in the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo as
14 an officer in charge of the operations centre in the public security
16 Q. Did you have occasion to meet and/or work with Mico Stanisic
17 during that time?
18 A. At one time, Mr. Stanisic was my immediate superior as the chief
19 of the centre there.
20 Q. Do you recall what time-period that was?
21 A. I think it was sometime in 1990, but I'm not entirely certain,
22 because the chiefs of the centre came and went.
23 Q. We've heard evidence about how in early April there was a split
24 of the MUP in Bosnia, and a separate Serbian MUP or what later became
25 called the Republika Srpska MUP was formed. Did there come a time when
1 you left the old joint MUP and went to the Republika Srpska MUP?
2 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, 1991, I left the MUP of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina because there were --
4 Q. Sorry to interrupt, but your answer was translated as the
5 17th of April, 1991, and I believe that's probably --
6 A. 1992.
7 Q. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt. Please go on.
8 A. In 1992, on 17th of April, I left the joint MUP of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina because the situation in the security centre was such that
10 that was great deal of animosity between the policemen of all three
11 ethnicities, Serb, Croat, and Muslim. I left to join the training centre
12 for the Ministry of Interior personnel in Vrace, in Sarajevo, where I
13 joined the Serbian MUP.
14 Q. And when you went to Vrace on the 17th of April, who -- who did
15 you report to and what work did you begin doing there?
16 A. Well, to be quite frank, at the time, in Vrace, members of Serb
17 ethnicity, employees of the police, were gathering there. My immediate
18 superior was Mr. Cedo Kljajic, a man who used to work in the security
19 centre before the war, and he was my immediate superior there, at that
20 time. He was the head of the police there.
21 Q. When you say Cedo Kljajic was the head of the police there, did
22 you mean in Vrace?
23 A. He was the chief of the police in the public security centre in
24 Sarajevo before the war and then he held the same post, like the police
25 chief, because, at that time, posts were being established in the new
1 Ministry of the Interior of what was then the Serbian Republic of
3 Q. How long did you remain at Vrace?
4 A. I remained in Vrace until the 9th of May, 1992, and then I left
5 for Pale at the recommendation of Mr. Cedo Kljajic, who knew me as an
6 employee of his, and he recommended me to be a member of the
7 Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoner, representing the
8 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.
9 Q. Let's me show you an exhibit that's in evidence now.
10 MR. HANNIS: This is P179.18. It's at tab 1.
11 Q. It will be up on the screen in a minute, Mr. Markovic?
12 This is dated the 8th May, 1992, and it's entitled:
13 "A Decision to Form a Central Commission."
14 And the name of Slobodan Markovic appears at number 2 as a
15 representative of the Ministry of the Interior for the Central
17 Is that you?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Did you receive a copy of this decision in 1992?
20 A. Yes. I received it immediately when I arrived in Pale on the
21 9th of May. As can you see, the decision was issued by the prime
22 minister of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
23 Professor Branko Djeric, on the 8th of May. So I arrived there one day
24 after this decision on the establishment of the Central Commission was
25 issued, and I received a copy of this decision. I have a copy myself,
1 but it had been faxed to me so it's now virtually illegible.
2 Q. Thank you. Before you went to Pale on the 9th of May, how did it
3 come about that you were named to join this commission? Did Mr. Kljajic
4 ask to you volunteer, or had he already put your name in and he was just
5 telling you that you were going there? What do you know about that? Can
6 you tell us?
7 A. I have already noted that Mr. Cedo Kljajic had been my superior
8 officer in the joint Ministry of Interior in the security centre in the
9 police department to which I belonged. He had known me for a number of
10 years and probably appreciated my knowledge and experience. He asked me
11 if I would like to go to Pale and be a member of the Central Commission
12 representing the MUP.
13 I asked him, perhaps a bit inappropriately, how long that would
14 last. And he told me, Well, some 15 or 20 days. He obviously didn't
15 think that it -- there would be chaos in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that it
16 would last for much, much longer than that.
17 Q. How long did you actually end up working for the commission for
19 A. I worked there until the end of March 1993. On the
20 1st of April of 1993, I transferred to the Ministry of the Interior of
21 Republika Srpska in Bijeljina where an office was set up, and I worked as
22 an inspector there in the Police Department of the Ministry of the
24 Q. The other members of the commission named in this decision - I
25 see from our copy on the screen that it's a pretty poor copy - but I
1 understand from other evidence that number 1 is Rajko Colovic; is that
3 A. That's correct, yes. Rajko Colovic is represented under
4 number 1. He represented the Ministry of Justice and Administration of
5 Republika Srpska, and he also was the chairman of the commission, because
6 the commission worked under the auspices of the justice ministry.
7 Q. And number three is a Lieutenant-Colonel Caslav Mihajlovic. Did
8 you ever see him? Did he ever come and do any work on the commission
9 that you know of?
10 A. Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel Mihajlovic, Caslav is listed under
11 number 3. He represented the Ministry of National Defence, and he was
12 also a member of the Central Commission. But this gentleman never
13 appeared, and I never actually got introduced to him.
14 Q. Sometime later on in 1992 was there another individual who came
15 to represent the Ministry of Defence or the army on the commission?
16 A. I remember that there was a serious gentleman. I think he was
17 colonel or lieutenant-colonel; a high-ranking officer at any rate. His
18 name was Budimir Djordjic. But he stayed there for just one day, he got
19 acquainted with the work of the ministry, and then he never showed up
21 Q. And after him, anyone else from the army?
22 A. No. No. No one from the Defence Ministry ever worked in the
23 commission as a member.
24 Q. Or how about the army?
25 A. Later on, there was Mr. Dragan Bulajic. Months later. He
1 represented the army there in the commission. But that was later on.
2 After several months.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... thank you. And how long did
4 Mr. Colovic remain in the position of president of the commission, if you
6 A. Well, we started working on the 9th of May. I think that
7 sometime on the 6th of June, 1992, he asked the prime minister to be
8 allowed to leave the commission, because he was a lawyer, a judge, and
9 probably this was not the job to his liking. He was probably looking for
10 a better job, keeping in sight his career. And there was an opening
11 somewhere for him.
12 Q. In terms of your job, when you went to work for this
13 government-created commission for exchange of prisoners, what was your
14 relationship with the MUP? Were you still an employee of MUP during this
16 A. Yes. I was still an employee of the Ministry of the Interior,
17 and they paid my salary, paltry as it was; but as a representative of the
18 Ministry of the Interior, I sat there on this commission, which was part
19 of the Government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 Q. I'd like to show you, in connection with that, an exhibit.
21 MR. HANNIS: 65 ter 1271 [Realtime transcript read in
22 error "1275"]. This is tab 47.
23 Q. Mr. Markovic, coming up on the screen in a moment will be what
24 appears to be a payroll list or sheet for the MUP in connection with
25 September 1992.
1 And do you see number 18 on that list on the page in front of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And your title is -- your job duty or description is as an
7 inspector. Were you still working on the Exchange Commission in
8 September 1992?
9 A. Yes. I was working on the Exchange Commission, and as I told
10 you, I was being paid by my -- by the Ministry of the Interior. We were
11 not paid by the government. I was being paid by the MUP as an inspector
12 with a university education, as stated here.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'd like to tender that one, Your Honour.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1487, Your Honours.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 And I see in the transcript at page 11, line 13, it was indicated
20 as 65 ter Exhibit "1275," and it should be "1271," just to be clear.
21 And that is the one that's on the screen. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Markovic, when you began your work for the commission,
23 did you have any kind of guidance or direction from the prime minister or
24 anyone else about what you were supposed to do in the
25 Exchange Commission?
1 A. Only one of the people working in the government secretariat. I
2 think he was a secretary in the cabinet. I think his name was
3 Nedeljko Lakic.
4 When we were chatting informally, he told me we would be given an
5 office in Kalovita Brda in a hotel called Buducnost and that there we
6 would be receiving parties, conducting conversations or talks, and so on.
7 So that was all the information I got, and I got it from Mr. Lakic. No
8 one expected that it would last as long as it did.
9 Q. Okay. Were you given any marching orders about how you were
10 supposed to go about your job, or did you and Mr. Colovic figure out on
11 your own what you were going to do and how you were going to do it?
12 A. When we arrived at Pale and when the commission was established,
13 people heard that there was a Commission for Exchange. And on both
14 sides -- members of both sides were brought, and we had a conversation
15 with a member of the BH commission about exchanges. And these were
16 carried out at the demarcation line between Sarajevo and Pale. I think
17 the gentleman's name was Musir Brkic, on the other side, the Bosnian
18 side, that is.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me show you next a document that is in
21 MR. HANNIS: Exhibit P427.7. It's tab 7.
22 Q. While that's coming up, Mr. Markovic, I'll tell you it's dated
23 the 6th of June, 1992, and it has the name of Rajko Colovic as president
24 of the commission and a signature at the bottom of the last page. It's
25 entitled an order.
1 Do you recognise that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us about it.
4 A. Rajko Colovic and I drew this document up together, but it was he
5 who signed it, as president of the commission.
6 I remember this well. Here we prescribed the way prisoners were
7 to be treated, civilians, soldiers, and so on, and can you see this from
8 the order itself, the manner in which the premises should be arranged,
9 what they should contain, sanitary facilities, and so on and so forth.
10 Can you see all this from the document, that they should be allowed to
11 receive food, clothes, items of personal hygiene, even food brought by
12 their relatives.
13 Q. And in the order in the first paragraph we see that all the
14 public security services are supposed to keep records of persons detained
15 or brought in. And in the second paragraph: That they shall submit
16 lists of detainees or persons deprived of liberty to municipal
17 commissions for exchange.
18 Is that right?
19 A. Members of the public security service had the right to detain
20 persons up to three days on their premises. They could not deprive them
21 of their liberty but they could detain them.
22 After that, the persons detained on these premises at the
23 Security Services Centres were handed over to members of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska. And from that point onwards, it was the army who took
25 over all responsibility for these people, including housing, food,
1 clothing, and so on. So the employees of the Security Services Centre
2 could only detain people for up to three days. After that, they had to
3 hand them over to members of the Army of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. I understand that's how the law and the regulations were written.
5 But, in fact, are you aware that sometimes people were detained by
6 members of the MUP for more than three days during 1992?
7 Did you know about that?
8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, at that time, I was at Pale. I'm not saying
9 these things did not happen in some places controlled by the
10 Army of Republika Srpska without out knowledge. At that time, there were
11 no telephone or teleprinter communications, and the roads were bad, and
12 it's possible that such things did occur. However, at Pale, where I was
13 employed, I can tell you that no such thing happened.
14 Q. Thank you. One -- one thing in your previous answer that maybe
15 you can help me with, and I think it may be a matter of translation or
16 the difference between the Serbian and English languages.
17 At page 14, line 8, your answer, you said:
18 "Members of the public security service had the right to detain
19 persons up to three days on their premises. They could not deprive them
20 of their liberty but they could detain them."
21 Can you explain for me what is the difference between detaining
22 someone and depriving someone of their liberty? Because, for me, in
23 English, detention is a form of depriving someone of their liberty.
24 So I think maybe it's a technical term that means something
25 different in Serbian. If you could, please?
1 A. Mr. Prosecutor, detention or detaining someone is when you, for
2 example, find someone drunk driving and you detain them until they sober
3 up. That is a form of detention. A person found drunk driving,
4 regardless of whether they have caused the traffic accident or not, is
5 detained on the premises until they sober up. Also, persons who
6 committed crimes, regardless of ethnicity, whether they were citizens of
7 Serb ethnicity or non-Serb ethnicity, could be detained up to three days.
8 After that, they had to be taken to the district court, and the district
9 court would proceed further and take further action. And then they might
10 be sent to a remand prison or whatever.
11 So it was up to the court to decide what to do with them in
12 connection with the crime they committed.
13 Q. Okay. And -- and what was depriving someone of their liberty
15 A. Well, depriving someone of their liberty is a completely
16 different thing from detention. A person can be deprived of his or her
17 liberty if they have committed a serious crime and if it is thought they
18 might repeat that crime. Then they are deprived of their liberty. If
19 it's thought that if released they might influence witnesses who could
20 testify in their case.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you.
22 MR. HANNIS: If we could show the second page of the B/C/S and
23 the last page of the English of this document on the screen, please.
24 Q. Mr. Markovic, I see that this document was sent to several
25 addressees, including the Ministry of Justice, the MUP, the -- the
1 centres, and the public security stations, as well as regional and
2 municipal commissions for exchange.
3 Do you know, as of early June 1992, how many regional and
4 municipal commissions for exchange were in existence, approximately?
5 A. I can't say what number was existence, because the Crisis Staffs
6 in the municipalities organised their own commissions for the exchange of
7 prisoners, and we were unable to send them proper instructions because
8 the regional staffs established these commissions and exchanged Serbs for
10 And when you say that this was addressed to all, I don't know
11 whether the commissions received this document at all or whether the
12 municipal and regional commissions and the public security stations
13 received it. I doubt that teleprinters, faxes, and so on were working at
14 the time. They were not operational. So they acted according to the
15 instructions of these War Staffs.
16 Q. Thank you. If I could show you next an exhibit.
17 MR. HANNIS: P228 in evidence. This is tab 8.
18 Q. Mr. Markovic, this is a -- these are the minutes of a government
19 meeting on the 9th of June, 1992. I think you've -- you saw this one
20 during proofing.
21 A. Yes. But I didn't see it before that.
22 Q. And item number 1 (a) on the agenda is the Order of the
23 Central Committee for the Exchange of Prisoners. Is that the document we
24 were just looking at, the one signed by Mr. Colovic that you and he
25 prepared together?
1 A. Yes. I didn't sign it, but we did draw it up together. He was
2 the only one who signed it. But yes, that's the document.
3 Q. And at the bottom of the page we see that the government has
4 supported the order of the Central Committee.
5 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S.
6 Q. It says the government acknowledged the letter of correspondence
7 from the president of the Central Committee for Exchange, and it's been
8 concluded that the minister of justice should talk to Rajko Colovic, the
9 committee president, to determine what are the motives for requesting the
11 Do you know what's that -- what that is about? What change was
12 Mr. Colovic requesting around the 9th of June?
13 A. As I've already said, Mr. Colovic may have thought that it was
14 beneath his dignity as a judge from the previous system, that he deserved
15 a better job. He was young, he had great career prospects, and he
16 thought he could do better. And that's why they were looking for someone
17 else to fill his place on the commission.
18 Q. And do you recall whether or not he was replaced; and, if so, who
19 replaced him, as president of the commission?
20 A. Much later on, a member of the commission turned up with two
21 colleagues from the Ministry of Justice who were drawing up lists and
22 talking to members of the public. And a man called Nenad Vanovac turned
23 up and introduced himself as the new president of the Commission for the
24 Exchange of Prisoners of War. I said I'm glad to meet you, I'm glad
25 we'll be cooperating. He spent that day at Pale and then he went back to
1 Ilidza Brigade, from where he had come.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Mr. Hannis. I don't think that the
3 beginning of the answer, the witness's answer, was recorded as witness
4 said. So it's page 18, line 7, 8, and 9. I believe he was talking about
5 the fact that he was sitting in the -- in the office with two members of
6 the Ministry of Justice.
7 Maybe you can clarify that. Thank you.
8 MR. HANNIS:
9 Q. Mr. Markovic --
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 Q. -- you heard what Mr. Zecevic said. Our English translation in
12 the transcript says your answer was:
13 "Much later on, a member of the commission turned up with two
14 colleagues from the Ministry of Justice who were drawing up lists ..."
15 Was that yourself you were referring to as the member of the
16 commission who was drawing up lists with --
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. -- two members? Please explain.
19 A. No, no. No, I'm afraid the gentleman didn't understand me.
20 When Rajko Colovic left, two young women from the Ministry of
21 Justice arrived. They did administrative work. They collected lists.
22 People arrived in our office in Pale to report missing persons. They
23 said their sons or brothers had gone missing on the line. They were
24 employees of the Ministry of Justice, but they were not members of the
25 commission. They were simply administrative staff, two girls. One was
1 called Biljana Brkic; today she is a judge or a lawyer in Doboj. The
2 other one is called Gordana Bagic [phoen], and I don't know where she is
3 today. She typed out those lists. She didn't do anything else.
4 Q. And who replaced Mr. Colovic as a representative of the
5 Ministry of Justice and took up the position of president of the
7 A. I've already mentioned that a person called Nenad Vanovac turned
8 up. He came from Ilidza, which is a suburb of Sarajevo. And at that
9 time it was being held by members of the Army of Republika Srpska. He
10 introduced himself as the new president of the commission and said he had
11 been appointed by the minister of justice, Mr. Momcilo Mandic.
12 I introduced myself. He didn't show me any documents, any
13 decision or letter. I accepted his word. We discussed the lists, the
14 problems on the ground, the fact that the other side was not respecting
15 our mutual agreements, that they were not bringing the number of people
16 we asked for or the people we asked for by name. I told him all this,
17 and after that, he went back to Ilidza. Probably he worked in that part
18 of Sarajevo on these exchanges, and I remained with those two young women
19 I mentioned who were doing administrative work.
20 Q. Did you and Mr. Vanovac then do any work together, or was he
21 working separately in Ilidza and you were working in Pale, sort of doing
22 your own thing?
23 A. Well, with the best will in the world to cooperate, it was not
24 possible. There were no telephone lines, no teleprinter communications,
25 all the roads from Pale to the other part of Sarajevo were blocked. It
1 was impossible to reach Ilidza at the time, to meet or to talk.
2 Q. Let me show you, regarding Mr. Vanovac, Exhibit P1137.
3 MR. HANNIS: And with the usher's help, if I could hand him a
4 hard copy of the document.
5 Q. Mr. Markovic, while this is coming up, I'll tell you it's a
6 transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation dated the
7 23rd of June, 1992, between a Nenad Vanovac and Momcilo Mandic.
8 At the bottom of your first page, I think, and at the top of the
9 second page in English, Mr. Vanovac ask:
10 "Who am I going to be talking to in the future? I can't find
11 this Elez anywhere."
12 Mandic says:
13 "Forget Elez. Everything's here with me directly until I find
14 the right man."
15 Do you know who the Elez is that's being referred to there?
16 A. Elez was a lower-ranking officer of the Army of Republika Srpska.
17 He had some sort of rank, but I don't remember exactly, a sergeant or
18 something like that. He was representing the army. He was trying to
19 manipulate something through civilians, but he was never a member of the
20 commission established by the government.
21 Q. Did he have any work to do with the exchange of prisoners on
22 behalf of the military, if you know?
23 A. No. He had nothing to do with the work of the official
24 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War, the state commission.
25 He nothing to do with it. And he was not a member of that commission.
1 He was with the army, he carried military insignia, he did not have any
2 decision appointing him to the commission, and he had had nothing to do
3 with the Central Commission by the Government of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. On the next page in your B/C/S, you see there's mention of
5 Rajko Colovic. And then, further on, Mr. Vanovac says:
6 "They called me about the eight you approve for the exchange with
7 Hrasnica and Kolonija. This seems like Mr. Mandic's approved an exchange
8 of prisoners."
9 Am I reading that correctly?
10 A. Absolutely, yes. Mr. Mandic, as the ministry of justice, was the
11 superior of all the prison wardens belonging to the Ministry of Justice.
12 How this was done and what they actually were doing, I don't know.
13 MR. HANNIS: And then if we could look next at Exhibit P1318.25.
14 It's at tab 17.
15 Q. Mr. Markovic, this will be on your screen in a moment. It's
16 dated the 4th of July, 1992.
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. It's a document from the minister of justice, signed by someone
19 else but signed for Momcilo Mandic. And you see it's informing that
20 Mr. Nenad Vanovac has been appointed president of the Central Commission
21 for Exchange of Prisoners -- or prison soldiers and individuals.
22 A. You can see, in the last line:
23 "The decision by the Government of the Serbian Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina will be forwarded subsequently."
25 So the minister of justice is appointing him, but the decision
1 will be forwarded subsequently.
2 I have to say that the first time I saw this document was during
3 the proofing yesterday. Although he had already introduced himself to me
4 as the president and I accepted his word, you see he was appointed by
5 Momcilo Mandic himself, the minister of justice.
6 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you, now, a little bit about how your
7 day-to-day work functioned on the commission. And let me show you, in
8 connection with that, Exhibit P179.17. This is tab 2 in the binder.
9 I think you said you arrived Pale on the 9th of May. And this
10 document has a date of 14 May, so it seems to one of your earliest
11 involvements in exchanges or dealing with prisoners or detained persons.
12 A. Yes. Yes, this is my handwriting. I wrote this. 400 persons on
13 18 pages who were brought from Bratunac to Pale. This is my handwriting
14 on this document.
15 MR. HANNIS: And could we look at page 3 of the B/C/S and of the
17 Q. Is that your signature in the handwritten entry at the bottom of
18 the page?
19 A. Yes. It says here:
20 "Member of the government commission on behalf of the Serbian MUP
21 for the exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic."
22 And you can see my signature in the bottom right-hand corner, and
23 the date is there in the bottom left-hand corner. But the lists are not
24 in my handwriting. It was probably those two secretaries, those two
25 female colleagues, who actually wrote the names.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Mr. Hannis, I'm sorry. Just -- if I can just make
2 a note there. On page 21, line 19, the -- the witness's answer was
3 recorded as a part of your question. Thank you.
4 The answer starts after "the imprisoned soldiers." Thank you.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Markovic, concerning this group of 400 or so men from
7 Bratunac, how -- how did you become involved in this? How did you find
8 out they were there, and how did you get involved in doing anything in
9 connection with them?
10 A. I was told by a person from the communications centre in the
11 Army of Republika Srpska that 400 people had arrived from Bratunac,
12 escorted by the military police and the army. As Rajko Colovic, at that
13 time, was not in Pale, and he was still a member of the commission at the
14 time, he was at Han Pijesak which is some 60 or so kilometres away or
15 more from Pale, I went to fetch him as the president. I went to fetch
16 him from his home and brought him back to Pale. In the meantime, all
17 these people who had been brought from Bratunac were put in the gym of
18 the primary school in Pale.
19 Some were in civilian clothes. A good part wore parts of
20 uniforms, military uniforms. Some had olive-drab JNA shirts. Some had
21 military boots or military pants and so on. And there were also some
22 individuals who were dressed in civilian clothes without any parts of
23 military uniform. But most of them did have at least one item of
24 clothing that was a military uniform.
25 Q. Did you speak with any of these men detained at the Pale
1 elementary school gym?
2 A. When food was distributed to them, they came in the evening and
3 left the next day, but they were served three meals. And I would like to
4 say that we gave them some fish with bread because we didn't want to
5 given them meat because we were afraid that they would not want to eat it
6 because of their religious beliefs. We respected those religious beliefs
7 and gave them some fish. We spoke to the representatives of those
8 people, and they asked what would happen to them. I had already been
9 told that all 400 of them would be transferred to Visoko. So people were
10 free to move. And all 400 of them were to be taken to Visoko, to the
11 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 And, later on, this was confirmed by a document sent by
13 Nedin Vranac [phoen], the head of the police station in Visoko, who
14 thanked us for our actions and for the fact that those people had not
15 been maltreated in any way. They had simply been taken there on three or
16 four -- two or three trailer trucks to the demarcation line under
17 military escort where they were taken in by the forces of the Muslim
19 Q. In part of your answer, you said, line 3, page 24:
20 "I had already been told that all 400 of them would be
21 transferred to Visoko."
22 Who told you that?
23 A. Well, this had been arranged. This was a huge number of people.
24 400 people. In Pale, there were people who had lost their kin, their
25 brothers, children, and so on, in the fighting, and it was very difficult
1 to keep the 400 safe from those Serbs who had lost their family members.
2 They were guarded by the military police, and it was arranged that they
3 would be moved.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
5 A. It was agreed with the prime minister that they would be moved to
7 Q. And who told you about it?
8 A. Well, Colovic had probably spoken to the prime minister. As the
9 chairman of the commission, he got in touch with the prime minister and
10 then the prime minister spoke to the Crisis Staff, as I could see from
11 your documents, the Crisis Staff in Sokolac. And he asked them to
12 provide three trailer trucks to transport those ethnic Muslims to Visoko.
13 Although it was logical for the prime minister to notify us as the
14 Central Commission, representing his and our function, and we were
15 supposed to take over from that time because it was not logical for the
16 prime minister to ask the Sokolac Crisis Staff to provide the trucks,
17 because we could have done the same thing. We -- it was really our job
18 to do it.
19 Q. Okay. You said in the previous answer that these men were
20 guarded by the military police.
21 At the elementary school in Pale, weren't there also some regular
22 police guarding them?
23 A. No. Sir, I did not say it was in the elementary school. It was
24 in the gym of the elementary school.
25 Q. And weren't there also regular police guarding them as well as
1 military police?
2 A. Well, the security was provided by the military police and the
3 Republika Srpska army troops. They secured the building. But it was
4 also a fact that in the immediate vicinity of this building there was the
5 public security station in Pale, and it is quite possible that some
6 police officers would come and speak to their colleagues from the army,
7 and it might have appeared that they also had been involved in guarding
8 the building but that was not the case. They did their job, the job of
9 the operatives of the Ministry of Interior. They were there on their
10 regular business, as far as it could be taken care of.
11 Q. Are you saying you didn't see any regular police inside the
12 gymnasium of the elementary school during the time these 400 prisoners
13 were kept there in May 1992?
14 A. In the gym where they were detained? No.
15 Regular police did not enter those premises. I was the only one
16 who got in, in order to speak to their representatives, to tell them that
17 everything would be all right, that there should not be concern, and that
18 they would be transferred to Visoko.
19 Q. I'll come back to that in a minute.
20 Let me ask you about your work in -- in dealing with exchanges
21 with the other side. Did you know an individual named Amor Masovic?
22 A. Masovic. Amor Masovic. He was a chairman of the Commission for
23 the Exchange of Prisoners of War of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And today he
24 actually chairs the institute for the search for the missing persons in
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina. On all sides. They search for the missing
1 people in all the ethnic communities. It's a central institute; it was
2 established in Sarajevo. But, yes, I had heard about him, and I did meet
3 with him.
4 Q. And did the two of you work together with a list that each of you
5 had of detained individuals in the other person's territory? For
6 example, did you have list of Serbs you believed were being detained in
7 Mr. Masovic's part of the territory, and did he have list of non-Serbs
8 that he believed were being detained in the Republika Srpska?
9 A. Yes. Practically every other day I went to Lukavica from Pale -
10 That's in eastern Sarajevo as it is now - where I was met by an APC, an
11 SFOR or UNPROFOR APC. I don't know what it was called. I think it was
12 SFOR. So we would drive to Lukavica in our own car. We would transfer
13 to the SFOR APC. And there were two other APCs providing security. We
14 would be in the middle, and we would go to attend talks at the Sarajevo
15 airport. And the people from Sarajevo, from Bosnia and Herzegovina,
16 would arrive in Sarajevo in the same manner, and we would sit down in a
17 special room where we would hold our meetings, exchange lists, arrange
18 dates for the exchanges, and so on.
19 Q. Did Mr. Colovic or Mr. Vanovac ever participate with you in these
20 kind of meetings with Mr. Masovic?
21 A. No, Colovic never showed up. Colovic had already left the
22 commission by that time. And Mr. Vanovac was in Ilidza, so he was not in
23 touch with them at all. And only I and Amor Masovic arranged those
24 meetings. And when we met, we would agree on the next meeting. Because
25 it was impossible, we didn't have any telephone lines, so we would agree
1 to meet in two days at the same place. And we had to arrange our
2 meetings in that way because the telephone lines were down and there were
3 no telefaxes so we had to bring the list to those meetings and exchange
4 them to arrange for the exchanges.
5 Q. And related to the exchanges, can you tell us about the principle
6 that's referred to as the all-for-all principle in connection with
8 A. The principle all for all was agreed, but the other side did not
9 respect it. And this principle means that if, for instance, our side
10 has, let's say, 20 Muslims in captivity and the other side has 70 Serbs,
11 Serb prisoners, they should exchange -- they should be exchanged all for
12 all: 20 for 70. So it's not ten for ten; it's all for all, regardless
13 of how many you have on one side you exchange them for all the prisoners
14 on the other side, regardless of how many there are. Especially when it
15 comes to the civilians because it was more a question of the flow of the
16 population, the free movement of the population, allowing the people to
17 decide where they wanted to live, on what territory.
18 Q. I -- I am sure you are correct that sometimes the other side did
19 not respect the all-for-all. But are aware of occasions where the Serb
20 side did not respect the all-for-all principle in exchanges?
21 A. On our side, what I did at the demarcation line near Sarajevo and
22 Pale it was not the case. But I am -- cannot be certain about other
23 parts of Republika Srpska because I was not there. Because I did not
24 have any contact with Banja Luka, with Doboj, Brod, or any other places
25 held by our people. We did not have telephones, and it was only later
1 that we were able to establish telephone lines and have telephone numbers
2 and so on.
3 Q. Okay. Did you know an individual named Filip Vukovic?
4 A. I never saw him. I only know that this gentleman had been
5 working in the socialist system before the war, and I heard of him in
6 that capacity. I never met him. But, for a while, he was the president
7 of the State Commission of Bosnia and Herzegovina for the Exchange of
9 Q. Let me -- and he was a Serb by ethnicity; correct?
10 A. That's correct, unfortunately.
11 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a look at Exhibit P1318.24. This is
12 tab 14.
13 Q. And, Mr. Markovic, this is a document that, some time in late
14 June 1992, there's a fax header on the B/C/S copy which has not been
15 noted in the English translation, but the date at the upper left of the
16 original B/C/S seems to be 26 June 1992. Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in the body of the document, it makes reference to something
19 having been received on the 22nd of June. I will tell you - we'll look
20 at it in a minute - but I will tell you that this is from Filip Vukovic
21 whose stamp and signature appear on the last page.
22 It's to the Central Commission for Exchange of Persons. Do you
23 recall ever seeing this document in 1992?
24 A. No. And this was not the fax message that I had in 1992.
25 Now, in the upper part, you can see where the fax was sent from.
1 It was from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the lower fax,
2 in the left-hand corner, that's not my fax, where it says the Commission
3 of the Exchange of Prisoners. It might be the justice ministry fax.
4 Well, you have a list. You have my fax number and my telephone number
5 and the telephone numbers of the other commissions. I have never seen
6 this document.
7 Q. The fax 785 025 is the one that you say might be a Ministry of
8 Justice number in June of 1992?
9 A. Might be. I am not saying that it is. But since we were under
10 their auspices, it might well be their fax. And I never saw this fax.
11 We didn't receive it. And you can see the Brijesce, Ilidza of
12 Vrbanja Most are mentioned here. These are parts that belong to
13 Mr. Vanovac. Brijesce and Ilidza, they were under him.
14 Q. Thank you. And you'll see in that first paragraph that
15 Mr. Vukovic is complaining about a recent exchange, where he says that
16 his side released all the persons agreed, but of the agreed 45 on the
17 Serb side, only seven were released. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes. But it doesn't mean anything to me.
19 Q. I understand --
20 A. Because -- I'm sorry. I really don't know who he wrote this to.
21 Because I have never seen this document. Whether this is addressed to
22 Vanovac or what, the date, just a moment, it's the 12th ... 12th or the
23 18th of June. No, I really don't have any idea what this document is all
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the third page of the English and
2 the second page of the B/C/S.
3 Q. There's a name I want to point out to you.
4 You see Roman numeral IV: Persons arrested in Ilidza on
5 14 May whose exchange has been arranged. And number one is a
6 Bucan, Anes. Anes Bucan.
7 Do you see that name?
8 A. Yes, Anes Bucan, number one. That's the only --
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... remember that name for a
10 little while. I'm going show you another document in a minute, but I'm
11 going to finish with this one first.
12 MR. HANNIS: If we could go to the last -- if we could go to the
13 last page in English and B/C/S.
14 Q. It makes a reference to an attachment with a list of prisoners
15 from 1 through 3.441. Did you ever see such a list from Mr. Masovic or
16 anyone else on the other side in June of 1992?
17 A. Yes [as interpreted]. I am unfamiliar with this figure. It is a
18 huge number of people. I have never seen this document. And you can see
19 that Filip Vukovic signed it as the chairman of the state commission of
20 the federal commission, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So my
21 answer is no.
22 Q. Okay. At the top of the page in that big paragraph near the
23 bottom of it, he says - and the English actually starts on the preceding
24 page - he says:
25 "The attachment contains the list of imprisoned persons and
1 detainees according to our records. It is our opinion that once released
2 the detainees should be sent to their places of residence, that is, to
3 their domicile address, otherwise this would signify typical deportation,
4 exile, and ethnic cleansing of the area. Such persons should also be
5 issued with appropriate certificates to prevent arrests for the second or
6 third time."
7 Were aware of this position being taken by Mr. Vukovic apparently
8 on behalf of the other side, that if you release people only to send them
9 out of the territory it was -- it would be viewed as deportation, exile,
10 and ethnic cleansing?
11 Was that something that was ever discussed in your presence in
13 A. I would like to repeat that I have never seen this document by
14 Mr. Filip Vukovic. And now, if you are asking me if it's deportation, no
15 it's not; it's just a freedom of movement of the citizens, because people
16 wanted to cross over to the territory where their fellow people from
17 their ethnic community lived. But the problem is that they had to cross
18 our lines in order to enter the territory of the Federation. And
19 sometimes it was impossible to reach the Federation lines because of the
20 lay of the land. And that's not deportation; it's just allowing people
21 freedom of movement. People who wanted to move. I didn't want to live
22 in Sarajevo. I had lived in Sarajevo for 34 years, yet I left it. I
23 left everything behind and I moved to the territory of Republika Srpska.
24 Well, it was not exactly what you would call the freedom of movement. I
25 barely got out alive.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I'm about to move to a different
3 topic. I know it's a minute or two early, but can we take the first
4 break now?
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes. And we would resume in 20 minutes.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
10 MR. HANNIS: While the witness is coming in, I understand we had
11 a correction to make about an exhibit number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to
13 correct for the record 65 ter 1271 was assigned in error, number P1487.
14 And, instead, 65 ter 1271 becomes Exhibit P1501. Thank you.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 MR. HANNIS:
19 Q. Mr. Markovic, we've seen that in connection with the work of
20 exchanging prisoners and detained persons that although you were on the
21 Central Commission, which was created by the government, that exchanges
22 were being conducted by other -- other groups and other individuals, such
23 as regional or municipal commissions, and individuals like Mr. Mandic, as
24 minister of justice.
25 Were you aware that there were other -- other private or --or
1 separate individuals that were trying to make their own arrangements for
2 exchange of prisoners and detained persons?
3 A. Well, I didn't know them personally. I mentioned Mr. Elez a
4 little while ago. I don't know what his position was. I don't know.
5 Perhaps he represented the Republika Srpska army. But those commissions
6 that were established at the municipal level, they were established by
7 the War Staffs in the municipalities. They were authorised to set up
8 their own commissions in order to deal with the exchanges of prisoners,
9 their prisoners for the detained Muslims. And that was not under the
10 auspices of this official commission of the Republika Srpska government.
11 Q. It seems to me that all of this made your job extra difficult,
12 because you're on the Central Commission for Exchange, but exchanges are
13 going on all the time without you being informed.
14 Did that make your job harder than it needed to be?
15 A. Well, first of all, it was really a thankless job, working in the
16 commission where you have 20 or 30 persons who would come to see you
17 daily. Their family members, their sons had been killed or massacred,
18 mutilated, gone missing in the fighting, and they wanted us to find at
19 least one body part for them to be able to bury. And it was really
20 difficulty because we didn't have any means of communication, telephones,
21 a even it was impossible to use the roads to take -- to go to those
22 places in other parts of Republika Srpska where those commissions were
24 Q. Let me show you Exhibit P1228; this is tab 11.
25 MR. HANNIS: If I could, with the usher's help, hand a hard copy
1 to the witness.
2 Q. And, Mr. Markovic, this will be with you in a moment. It's
3 another transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation.
4 And this one is dated 25 June 1992. The primary speakers are
5 Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I don't recall, did you have a chance to look at this one during
9 A. As far as I can recall, you showed me this document yesterday
10 during the proofing session, which was why I was here yesterday.
11 Q. If you follow on, you will see that Mr. Krajisnik is informing
12 Mr. Mandic about a Dusan Savic who is the brother of a Milo Savic and
13 that Dusan's been arrested and he's asking Mr. Mandic's help to see if
14 that person can be located on the other side and exchanged or released.
15 Do you recall that?
16 A. Yesterday was the first time that I saw this document, when you
17 showed me, and I had never heard the name Dusan Savic before.
18 Q. I understand, I understand. I just want to confirm that that
19 conversation is about trying to locate and arrange the exchange or
20 release of a Dusan Savic.
21 A. Well, you can see that Mr. Momcilo Mandic, as the justice
22 minister, did have this capability. He was actually able to do that. It
23 was probably a friend of theirs, and I had never met him. I'm unfamiliar
24 with the name.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 I'd like to show you, related to that, another phone conversation
2 the following day.
3 MR. HANNIS: And it's Exhibit P1134.
4 Q. If I could hand you a hard copy of that one. I will trade you.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] What is the tab number?
6 Tab number, please?
7 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated] That is tab number 13.
8 Q. This one is the following day, the 26th of June, 1992, between
9 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic. On the second page of the English at the
10 bottom of the page, and for you I think it's the third page of the B/C/S,
11 Mr. Krajisnik is following up and asking about:
12 "Let me also ask you, what about this Savic, Milos, since it's
13 his brother?"
14 And his brother, as we saw before, is Dusan.
15 And Mr. Mandic says:
16 "President, I put it on the list. The first next exchange and it
17 will be finished."
18 When you were working as a member of the exchange commission, did
19 you ever see any list from Mr. Mandic of persons to be exchanged?
20 A. No. I really did not see that at all. And I never actually
21 received it. There this was not addressed to me. Because this was
22 absolutely done bypassing the official commission.
23 Q. Thank you. And if you follow on immediately from that part - and
24 it's page 3 of the English - you see that Mr. Mandic and Mr. Krajisnik
25 have some discussion about Filip Vukovic and his role on the
1 exchange commission on the other side and his -- his claim that what the
2 Serbs were doing in letting the women and children go to Vrbanja was
3 ethnic cleansing.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. The fact that they were all released across -- to go across the
6 Vrbanja Most bridge, which was in the centre of the city itself in the
7 immediate vicinity of the city centre, I -- that was just the freedom of
8 movement of population. They could decide where they wanted to live.
9 Because they were a problem to us, if I may put it that way, and they
10 were also a problem to the territory where they were heading to.
11 So we were trying to solve our problem but in a normal, humane
13 Q. Okay. I understand. Let me show you, next, Exhibit P1157. This
14 is tab 15.
15 MR. HANNIS: Again, if could I have the usher's help.
16 Q. One more intercepted telephone conversation. And this one,
17 Mr. Markovic, is dated the 1st of July. This time it's between
18 Mr. Mandic and Radovan Karadzic.
19 And let me see if I can find the right page.
20 Do you see where Mr. Mandic informs that they're evacuating some
21 Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija?
22 A. Sokolovic.
23 Q. Ah, okay. Yes. About five lines down below that, Mr. Mandic
25 "We have many on the list. There are 300 people from Hadzici,
1 Muslims who have been kept here for seven days. No one has inquired
2 about them. No one seems to care. I don't know what to do."
3 And then he goes on to say:
4 "We'll try to exchange them for people from Hrasnica."
5 A. Yes, I see that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Hrasnica is a part of Sarajevo, but it's on the outskirts. There
8 were large industrial facilities there, and many Serbs were employed in
9 Hrasnica but also a large number of Muslims. At the very outset when the
10 war broke out, the Muslims managed to take Hrasnica and
11 Sokolovic Kolonija and then they tried to exchange those people. I don't
12 know about this conversation. And how could I, because it's a
13 conversation between the prime minister and the minister of justice, and
14 it's an intercept. So how could I know about it?
15 Q. I understand. Your answer was translated as "a conversation
16 between the prime minister and the minister of justice." I -- perhaps
17 you were misinterpreted, but Mr. Karadzic was the president of the
18 Presidency; correct?
19 A. The president of the republic, yes. The Radovan Karadzic, the
20 president of the republic.
21 Q. I just wanted to make sure that the transcript was correct.
22 Thank you.
23 And then Mr. Karadzic goes on and was asking Mr. Mandic if he had
24 found a particular Croat in Kula, and Mr. Mandic informs him that all the
25 Croats have already been exchanged.
1 Were you involved in any exchanges of Croats, or only Muslims?
2 A. Only Muslims. On the territory of Sarajevo, there was a very
3 small percentage of Croats, and now they amount to about 1 per cent.
4 Q. Thank you for that. I think I have one more telephone
5 conversation I want to show you.
6 MR. HANNIS: And, again, if could I have the usher's help. This
7 is Exhibit P1229, and it's tab 31.
8 Q. This was dated the 12th of August, 1992. Let me start by asking
9 you if you knew a person by the name of Fahrija Karkin.
10 A. I didn't know him personally. I saw him on television. But
11 before the fighting broke out in Sarajevo, I heard that he was one of the
12 better lawyers. And I think that in these criminal proceedings he was
13 co-counsel for Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.
14 Q. And Mirko Krajisnik; do you know who he was?
15 A. I've heard of him. I know he's Momcilo Krajisnik's brother. But
16 I don't know him personally. I have heard of him. And I have heard that
17 he is Momcilo Krajisnik's brother.
18 Q. And Mr. Karkin, what -- what ethnicity was he; if you know?
19 A. Muslim. Then they were called Muslims; now they are called
20 Bosniaks again.
21 Q. You will see there's a long decision between Mirko Krajisnik and
22 Mr. Karkin about an exchange they're trying to arrange. On page 2 of the
23 English and page -- I believe it's also page 2 of your B/C/S, yes. One
24 of the persons to be included in this exchange is Dusan Savic.
25 Do you remember that name we saw earlier in the phone
1 conversation between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Krajisnik --
2 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik?
3 Do you recall that?
4 A. I -- I'm not familiar with this document. Even the names
5 mentioned here, Kokot, Grujic, Skobalj, are names I have never heard
7 Q. I understand. But you see the name Dusan Savic near the bottom
8 of page 2 in the B/C/S as one of the persons being discussed for this
9 exchange that Mr. Mirko Krajisnik and Mr. Karkin are trying to arrange?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And, again, I take it that this is -- this is not an exchange
12 that you were informed about or involved in, in your role as member of
13 the Central Exchange Commission?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What -- what position, if any, did Mirko Krajisnik have in -- in
16 the government or the police or the Ministry of Justice in
17 August of 1992; if you know?
18 A. Mirko Krajisnik?
19 Q. Yes. Did he hold any position?
20 A. Momcilo and his brother, yes, he was the president of the
21 Assembly. But Mirko Krajisnik, as far as I know, was never a member of
22 the government or held any official post. I think he was engaged in
23 private business, a private enterprise.
24 Q. Thank you. Next I want to show you Exhibit P1475.
25 MR. HANNIS: This is tab number 35.
1 Q. This is just a short one-page document, Mr. Markovic, and we'll
2 put it up on the screen for you.
3 A. Very well.
4 Q. This is dated the 30th of August, 1992. It appears to be from
5 the minister Mico Stanisic with a stamp and signature, addressed to the
6 administration of the Kula Prison, Ministry of Justice, Commission for
7 Exchange of Detainees. And it says:
8 "We hereby ask you to ensure the release of the prisoner
9 Anes Bucan."
10 Do you remember that name we saw before in the 26th June --
11 A. The name was mentioned just a while ago, yes.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that was in the
13 26th June document from Filip Vukovic. In --
14 A. Yes, I remember.
15 Q. In August 1992, you were still working for the
16 Exchange Commission. Did Minister Stanisic know that you were working
17 for this Exchange Commission from May 1992 throughout the rest of the
18 year? Was he aware of that?
19 A. I think he knew I worked in that commission but not the period of
20 time that I worked in it. Because we happened to run into each other on
21 two occasions where I had my office, and he asked me, How are the exchanges
22 going? Can you reach agreement with them? And I simply told him that they
23 were refusing to respect the lists we had agreed on at the meetings. And he
24 gave me some instructions, that the prisoners should be treated in line with
25 the Geneva Conventions, that especially women and young children were not to
1 be maltreated, and that exchanges should be carried out in accordance with
2 the Geneva Conventions, and that their accommodation should be in compliance
3 wherever possible, even though it all came under the Ministry of Justice and
4 the VRS. And if I may say, where Mico Stanisic, the minister of the
5 interior, is writing to the management of the Kula Prison, the Ministry of
6 Justice, and he says: please allow the prisoners to be released. Look at
7 that level, the rank; the minister, in fact, is not ordering the prison
8 warden, or demanding and requesting, but asking him, pleading with him. He
9 says, please allow prisoner Anes Bucan to be released and exchanged for
10 three Serb families, which shows that he was not competent, he actually
11 wasn’t. Because had the minister of the interior been competent, he would
12 have had it done, absolutely. But he, the minister, was actually asking the
13 prison warden, someone who was far below him in rank, for the exchange to
14 take place. I think this makes everything clear.
15 Q. Well, I'm --
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. The part of the answer which
17 witness gave on page 40 when he was talking to Mr. Stanisic was not
18 recorded. The last part of the answer. Maybe the witness was talking
19 too fast and the interpreters were not able to --
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: And, Mr. Hannis, where are we heading with all of this?
21 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's something I would rather not
22 discuss in front of the witness, if -- if we need to have the discussion.
23 Maybe I can ask him a few additional questions, and you'll see.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Hannis, carry on for the moment, but see if you can --
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- help the Court.
3 MR. HANNIS: As far as Mr. Zecevic's point, I would simply ask
4 him to try and address it on cross-examination, because that was such a
5 long answer, I don't know where to begin to try and find what was
6 omitted. And, frankly, it was non-responsive -- much of it was
7 non-responsive to my specific question.
8 Q. Mr. Markovic --
9 JUDGE HALL: One of the points which Mr. Zecevic made which bears
10 repeating is -- and I'm speaking -- I would address the witness directly.
11 Please, sir, bear in mind that your evidence has to be
12 interpreted so that you -- you need to remind yourself to slow down in
13 giving your answers so that we have an accurate record of what you intend
14 to convey.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for telling
18 me this.
19 MR. HANNIS:
20 Q. Mr. Markovic, I take it that Minister Stanisic didn't speak to
21 you as a member of the commission about Anes Bucan, and didn't involve
22 you in trying to facilitate this proposed exchange?
23 A. No, he never mentioned that name to me. We spoke only about the
24 way exchanges were being carried out and so on. But no names were
25 mentioned by him.
1 Q. Even though he knew you were a member of the Exchange Commission
2 and that you were an employee of the MUP, his ministry. Wouldn't it seem
3 logical that he would speak to you about such a matter?
4 A. Well, probably it would seem logical, but he had already sent
5 that document to the Ministry of Justice which was supposed to deliver it
6 to me, and the commission was supposed to deal with it further. But I
7 never received this document from the Ministry of Justice, the document
8 signed by Minister Stanisic.
9 Q. And we saw from the 26th June fax from Mr. Vukovic that
10 Anes Bucan had been arrested on 14th of May. So apparently by the end of
11 August he is still being held, which is much more than the three days;
13 A. Yes, not more than three days. But he was in Kula Prison. It
14 was an official prison before the war, during the war, and after the war.
15 It's still in existence. Whether Anes Bucan was there as a prisoner of
16 war or as a person suspected of committing a serious crime and awaiting
17 trial, that I don't know.
18 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. I'd like to show you, next,
19 Exhibit P192, which is at tab 26.
20 This is a document dated the 8th of August, 1992. It's from the
21 deputy minister for police affairs, Tomo Kovac, addressed to the
22 president of the Republic and to the prime minister.
23 Had you ever seen this document before you -- you came for
25 A. No, I had never seen this document before.
1 Q. You'll see on the first page, the second paragraph, the second
2 sentence, Mr. Kovac says:
3 "There are cases where MUP members accept or in some cases even
4 take part in capturing people in the war zones. After that, they arrange
5 accommodation for them and a way of life, they determine the duration of
6 their detention and their entire destiny."
7 Were you aware of this fact that is purported to be by Mr. Kovac
8 about MUP's involvement in capturing or accepting some of the people
9 captured in war zones?
10 A. If the members of the MUP were in the war areas, they were under
11 the authority of the Army of Republika Srpska. When they became attached
12 to the army, they were under the authority of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska, and then they were soldiers, not policemen, and the
14 military controlled them. Everything was under military control.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. The moment they came to be in the area where there was combat.
17 Q. I think apart from your -- your visit to the primary school
18 gymnasium in Pale in mid-May in connection with the 400 men from
19 Bratunac, I understand --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- you did not visit any other camps or detention facilities
22 during 1992; is that correct?
23 A. In late October, as I told you, and we'll come to that, I visited
24 the camp in Manjaca, when I tried to organise an exchange at a place
25 called Zitnic, near Sibenik. But we'll talk about that later.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you know Slobodan Avlijas in 1992?
2 A. I met Mr. Avlijas on the road to Banja Luka where we were
3 supposed to have a meeting in the Bosna Hotel in connection with the
4 exchange of those people who were in the camp at Manjaca. We happened to
5 meet on the road while we were waiting in line to pass through an area
6 that was constantly under fire from the Muslim forces, especially sniper
8 Q. And do you recall approximately when that was, what month in
10 A. I know it was in the second half of October. It may have been
11 the 20th or the 22nd of October, 1992. We were supposed to meet in hotel
12 Bosna, to discuss the further work of the commission, of the
13 then-ARK Krajina, concerning the exchange of war prisoners.
14 Q. Was he ever appointed a member or did he ever do any work with
15 your exchange commission?
16 A. He was an employee of the Ministry of Justice, although, for a
17 long time -- although he had held that post for a long time and knew many
18 people, Mr. Momcilo Mandic proposed that he go with me and the commission
19 from Banja Luka to conduct that exchange.
20 Q. That Mr. Avlijas go with you as a -- as a commissioner on the
21 Central Exchange Commission?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. On behalf of the Ministry of Justice.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you know a couple of inspectors at the MUP
1 in 1992, named Goran Saric and Mirko Erkic. Did you know either one of
3 A. Goran Saric. Maybe it's Saric with an S, yes. I did know him,
4 yes. And I also knew Mr. Mirko Erkic who had worked in the Ministry of
5 the Interior of ex-Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war.
6 Q. If I could show you, briefly, a document.
7 MR. HANNIS: It's P193. It's at tab 27.
8 Q. This is -- I don't know if you've seen this one before,
9 Mr. Markovic. It's a document dated the 9th of August, 1992, and signed
10 by the prime minister -- or for the prime minister by the deputy prime
11 minister, Mr. Dubojevic [phoen]. And it's entitled:
12 "A Decision on Forming Commissions for Visits to Collective
13 Centres and Other Facilities for Prisoners."
14 And you'll see that Mr. Avlijas, Mr. Saric, Mr. Erkic, and a
15 Vojin Lale were named to commissions to visit and inquire into the status
16 of persons situated in those facilities.
17 Did you know about that? And this 9th of August is just a few
18 days after there was a big international furor after some international
19 reports went and took pictures at Manjaca, Omarska. Do you recall that?
20 A. This is the first time I've seen this decision on forming
21 commissions for visits to collective centres. These centres and prisons
22 were now under the Ministry of Justice. I know these people, but I never
23 knew of the existence of this commission.
24 Q. Were you aware of the -- the public outcry in the international
25 press that took place a few days before this?
1 A. We heard something about it. There were rumours. We were in the
2 back of beyond as far as communications go. But it had to do with the
3 camp at Manjaca [as interpreted] and that image that was doctored,
4 showing this man behind the wire.
5 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, Were you aware that there were still --
6 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. It's line 14 in transcript. It
7 said "Manjaca," but I think witness said another name. It's Manjaca in
8 line 14.
9 MR. HANNIS: All right.
10 MR. PANTELIC: It should be corrected, yes.
11 MR. HANNIS: I see that.
12 Q. Witness, did you say something other than Manjaca?
13 A. You mean in my last answer?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I said that had to do with that camp, I think it was Omarska,
16 where you see a thin person behind a wire and the others around him are
17 walking around, sitting down, and this was represented as a terrible camp
18 of the persons lounging around and so on.
19 Q. Okay. Were you aware that as late as middle of November, 1992,
20 there apparently were still some illegal camps and assembly centres in
21 the Republika Srpska? Did you know about that?
22 A. I knew that there were camps on the other side, even private
23 camps in houses established by Muslims.
24 Q. That's not my question. My question is: Were you aware there
25 were apparently still some illegal camps and assembly centres in the
1 Republika Srpska as late as the middle of November 1992?
2 Did you know about that?
3 A. No. I knew about the legal camps - the collection centres,
4 better to say - Manjaca, Kula, and Bileca, I think.
5 As for the legal ones, those were the three. I didn't know about
6 any illegal camps, and I personally doubt the existence of illegal camps.
7 Q. Okay. Would the minister of justice be in a better position in
8 November 1992 than you to know about whether such illegal camps and
9 assembly centres existed? Would Mr. Mandic be in a better position?
10 A. Well, absolutely, yes, because all the camps were under his
11 ministry. So he would have known. Because they were all under the
12 Ministry of Justice.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. They had powers over them.
15 Q. Thank you. Let me show you one last exhibit, Mr. Markovic.
16 MR. HANNIS: It's P253. It's at tab 45.
17 Q. And I can give you a hard copy with help from the usher.
18 Coming to you in a minute, Mr. Markovic, is this exhibit. It's
19 dated 17 November 1992, and it's the minutes of the 57th Session of the
20 RS Government which had been held on 27 October. So I guess my question
21 should be the end of October instead of the 17th of November.
22 If you can turn to page 6 in the B/C/S, and it's page 6 of the
23 English as well. I want to ask you about item number 22, Momcilo Mandic,
24 ministry of judiciary and administration, has informed the government on
25 the situation in Republika Srpska camps and assembly centres.
1 "It is concluded that the existing illegal camps and assembly
2 centres are to be dissolved as soon as possible."
3 The way I read that means that at the time Mr. Mandic is saying
4 this on, I guess, the 27th of October - I'm sorry, I misspoke before -
5 there were still existing illegal camps and assembly centres in the
6 Republika Srpska. Would you agree?
7 A. I was not aware of them. And I have just said that only
8 Justice Minister Momcilo Mandic was in the position to know. I myself
9 did not know about them. Because all the camps, all the prisons were
10 under the control and within the remit of the justice ministry.
11 Q. But when you were doing your work as a member of the commission
12 and meeting with Mr. Masovic, he gave you a list of non-Serbs detained in
13 Republika Srpska. Did he not indicate to you the suspected locations of
14 where some of these detained persons were so you could look for them?
15 A. He spoke about the locations, but Kula was mentioned most often.
16 And we asked him to effect the exchange of prisoners from the military
17 barracks, Viktor Bubanj and the central prison in Sarajevo, and today the
18 barracks houses the supreme court, unfortunately.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Markovic. I don't have any other questions for
20 you at this time. Thank you.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Markovic, in addition to the caution that I
22 would have given you earlier about slowing down, inasmuch as the
23 cross-examination would be conducted by counsel who speaks the same
24 language that you do, please remember to allow for a gap between the
25 question to be completed by counsel and before you attempt to answer.
1 Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will try and do my best.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?
4 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please, Mr. Cvijetic.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Markovic.
7 A. Good morning, sir.
8 Q. Now I will try first follow the line of questioning pursued by my
9 learned friend from the Prosecution, and I will start with the same topic
10 as he did. Right at the beginning, the Prosecutor asked you when and why
11 you left the joint MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and if I'm not mistaken
12 you said that on 17th April, 1992, you had arrived in Vrace and that
13 before you arrived there, the interethnic relations in the joint MUP of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina had already been disrupted and this had created an
15 atmosphere of intolerance in which it was impossible to work together
16 side by side? Did I paraphrase you correctly?
17 A. Yes, that's precisely what I said. Not that the relations were
18 disturbed, but they were outside of the bounds of any kind of normal
19 behaviour. Threats, insults, cursing, even physical assaults on us,
20 people from other ethnic communities who worked in the same ministry.
21 Q. Well, it's stopped. Very well. Let me show you a document.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P650. It's
23 an exhibit. I would like it to be shown to the witness.
24 Q. Mr. Markovic, this is a document -- well, you can see from its
25 title what it is all about. These are statements by policemen of Muslim
1 nationalities about their removal from the Pale and Sokolac Public
2 Security Stations.
3 And now I would like us to go on to the next page so that we can
4 see what this is all about.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And I would like the second
6 paragraph to be zoomed in.
7 Q. Mr. Markovic, could you please read this. And then I will have
8 some questions for you.
9 Have you read it?
10 A. Just a moment, please.
12 Q. You can see, at the end of this paragraph, members of the station
13 of Muslim ethnicity claim that the station chief told them that the fact
14 that they had been removed from their posts was a counter-measure in
15 response to what had happened to the Serb police officers in the police
16 station in the Stari Grad municipality in Sarajevo.
17 So now let me ask you, Are aware of this incident at Pale? And
18 then we will move on to the Stari Grad Police Station. So were you aware
19 of this incident in Pale? Just wait a little bit before answering.
20 A. Sir, I would not call this an incident. The chief of the public
21 security station at Pale, Mr. Malko Koroman, wanted, at all costs, to
22 keep the Muslims working in the station. But he also wanted the Serb
23 policemen to return to their jobs in the Stari Grad Police Station. He
24 insisted on it. I spoke to the public security station commander in
25 Pale, a Muslim, whose name was Malik Krivic. He was a colleague of mine;
1 I had worked with him before. He told me that Malko had asked him --
2 Malko Koroman had asked him not to come to Pale anymore because of his
3 personal safety but that he would continue receiving his salary as if he
4 had continued working. This is what Malik Krivic, the commander of the
5 police station at Pale, told me at that time.
6 Q. Now, did Mr. Krivic tell you that Mr. Koroman had told him what
7 they say here, that this was a counter-measure in response to what
8 happened at the Stari Grad Police Staying and that they would be able to
9 go back to their jobs if the Serbs would return to their jobs in
10 Stari Grad?
11 A. Well, he didn't tell me that in so many words, but that's how I
12 interpreted that. In the Stari Grad Police Station where I started my
13 police career in 1987 as the deputy police commander, there was a single
14 Serb working who remained working there. And then after a few days,
15 Ismet Dahic, the commander of the Stari Grad Police Station, sent him
16 home, instructing him not to come back to his job anymore, because from
17 that time on it was to be and it was 100 per cent ethnically pure Muslim.
18 Q. Could you please repeat the name of the commander who sent him
19 home because it was not in the record?
20 A. It was the commander of the public security station in Stari Grad
21 in Sarajevo. His name was Ismet Dahic. And the chief of the station was
22 Enes Bezdrop.
23 Q. They were both Muslims; is that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like us to look at
1 document 1D00-2736.
2 Q. Mr. Markovic, I will not ask you to read this document. Let me
3 just read whether you are familiar with this letter sent by the members
4 of the Stari Grad Public Security Station of Serb ethnicity.
5 Have you ever seen it before?
6 A. Yes. I actually read it myself in early March of 1992, that's
7 the date indicated here, when, in the Security Services Centre, I
8 received a visit from the ethnic Serbs working in that station. And as a
9 former officer in charge of that station, I was asked to give them my
10 opinion as to what they should do, because they couldn't go on going to
11 work because of the terrible insults they received on a daily basis from
12 their erstwhile colleagues; their colleagues, ethnic Muslims.
13 Q. In this letter, they list all the problems that they face in
14 their work, and you can see here that they speak about the disproportion
15 in the quantity of arms, the involvement -- interference of the
16 Green Berets in the work of the station, and a number of irregularities
17 that actually pushed them to the fringe, pushed those ethnic Serbs on the
18 fringe, that they could no longer work properly in this police station.
19 And in the end - and let us now look at the last page of this
20 document - they say that they refused to work there anymore, and they
21 placed themselves at the disposal of the Sarajevo SUP, the Secretariat of
22 the Interior. And that is still the joint SUP.
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, just for the record, I think this one is
25 already an exhibit, and we should just indicate it is Exhibit 1D132, I
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. I neglected to
3 mention that this is in fact 1D132.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Markovic, just tell me, What did you do? What did you
5 tell your colleagues? Obviously you knew them.
6 A. Yes. These were all employees who worked under me.
7 Q. So what did you tell them?
8 A. I made a recommendation to them that they should try and
9 persevere, because it was still possible at that time that with some
10 effort on the part of our leaders, the people in charge, for the joint
11 MUP to continue in existence, just like as the joint Bosnia and
13 Q. Now let us just move on to page where the signatures are so that
14 you can confirm whether these are, indeed, those people that you knew.
15 Do you recognise their signatures?
16 So do you recognise the signatures?
17 A. Yes, definitely. Definitely.
18 Number 1 is Cedo Nogo.
19 Q. Well, you don't have to go through them. Just tell us whether
20 you recognise them.
21 A. Yes, each and every one.
22 Q. So you will agree that this event in the Stari Grad Police
23 Station preceded the event at Pale; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, absolutely.
25 Q. Thank you. We will no longer be needing this document. And now
1 let us move on to the topic which actually brought you here today.
2 When my colleague from the Prosecution asked you a question, you
3 said that you received your salary throughout this time-period from the
4 Ministry of the Interior, and you explained by saying that in essence
5 nobody knew how long this commission would work. All the expectations
6 were that it would be in existence for a very short time.
7 A. Yes, precisely. Nobody had any idea how long this commission
8 would continue working and how long this whole madness - it's the only
9 way to describe it - would last. I received my salary from the
10 Ministry of the Interior as an inspector in a police department because
11 the Ministry of the Interior is an integral part of the government, and
12 all the ministries are paid for from the government budget.
13 Q. Since it is the state budget, then there was no need for this
14 commission of yours to be established as a professional commission
15 because it was paid from the same treasury; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, absolutely.
17 Q. But I am now interested in the second part that you have failed
18 to explain for us.
19 I am interested in your status, in terms of the organisation, the
20 responsibilities, and whom did you report in your work. Whom were you
21 accountable to for your work? That's what you did not explain.
22 A. As for my work and the work of the entire commission, since I was
23 there on my own for most of the time, I reported solely to the prime
24 minister who had appointed me to that position by his decision.
25 Q. In that period while you worked in the commission, were you
1 duty-bound to file any formal or informal reports to the
2 Ministry of the Interior about the work of the commission?
3 A. No. As I've already explained, my only obligation was to submit
4 reports to the prime minister through the justice ministry.
5 Q. My colleague Mr. Zecevic intervened at one point, and perhaps
6 this is the right time to -- for you to complete your answer. You did,
7 but it was not recorded in the transcript.
8 You said that you met Minister Stanisic a couple of times and --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that he only wanted to know about the work of your commission
11 and that he orally conveyed to you some suggestions and also indicated to
12 you that you were duty-bound to comply with the Geneva Conventions and
13 other international obligations. I heard you say "although this was in
14 effect under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice." Is that what
15 you said?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the army. That's what you said.
18 So could you please explain what you meant?
19 A. Mr. Stanisic told me that, because I was a representative of the
20 ministry, to make sure that I do everything in line with the law. But
21 everything was under the jurisdiction of the justice of defence -- or,
22 rather, of the Ministry of Justice, because the army did a large number
23 of exchanges, and it set up its own commission which was headed by
24 Dragan Bulajic, Captain Bulajic.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the speakers are kindly
1 asked to speak one at a time.
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You were asked whether you received any instructions regarding
4 your work, and, if so, who gave you those instructions, and you answered
5 that question. But now I would like us to go back to this decision
6 appointing your commission. If we could look at the contents of this
7 document. You only dealt with the composition, but I'm interested in the
8 bottom part of this decision.
9 I do apologise. I'm looking for this document. It's a
10 Prosecution Exhibit. I can't seem to be able to find it here in this
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps my colleague Mr. Hannis
13 might assist me here.
14 P228 I'm told. Correction, 427.7.
15 MR. HANNIS: And do you need a hard copy?
16 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There's no need. I just want to
17 have it on our screen. So if you could assist me with the number of the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the decision appointing
20 members of the commission? Is that what you mean?
21 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, this is not the right
22 document. Could you please just give me the exhibit number. The
23 decision appointing the commission for the exchange.
24 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... the 1992
25 decision to form a Central Commission? It's P179.18. I have a hard
2 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 Well, perhaps we could give the hard copy to the witness, and the
4 rest of us will be able to follow it on our screens.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. It's the photo copy. We said it was not a very good quality, but
8 if you would care to look at the bottom part of this document below the
9 composition. It appears that when your commission was established some
10 general instructions for its work were already provided. You can see
11 that the exchanges on the principle all for all is mentioned here. That
12 is what you told us, complying with security requirements, and so on.
13 So you will agree with me that in the decision itself the
14 government already gave you some initial instructions?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. You were shown another document signed by Mr. Tomo Kovac, if I'm
17 not mistaken. And we will have to go back to that document.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And that is P192.
19 Q. You remember that document? You commented on a part shown to you
20 by the Prosecutor. However, the gist of this document can be seen in the
21 text that follows. Look at paragraph 3, please. And then go on reading
22 until you reach the end of the document. And after that we will comment
23 on it.
24 Mr. Kovac is suggesting to the president of the republic and the
25 prime minister, the top government officials, that the basic problem be
1 solved, which is categorising persons so that it can be clearly defined
2 who is in charge of what category.
3 In paragraph 3, he discusses the category of prisoners of war and
4 concludes that the military or civilian judiciary should be in charge of
5 them. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you agree that this category did exist and that the competence
8 mentioned by him, the competency was in fact the way he describes it?
9 I'm referring to prisoners of war, military prisoners.
10 A. I absolutely agree. Because prisoners of war --
11 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours,
12 but my English translation at paragraph 3 says:
13 "We mean civilians and that category of prisoners of war ..."
14 So paragraph 3 also seems to be talking about civilians. And
15 unless the original says something different in Serbian, I'd like that
16 clarified on the record.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Please read the introductory part. So these are prisoners of war
19 who have committed crimes against the civilian population. That, at
20 least, is clear.
21 Have you seen this?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 [Defence counsel confer]
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
25 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... just read out
1 the Serbian part? Because the way Mr. Cvijetic is phrasing it doesn't
2 seem to comply with what I read in the English translation.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please read this whole passage.
5 A. "A second problem, a much more important problem in the field is
6 that people are not properly categorised in the facilities or collection
7 centres. We mean prisoners of war, persons who committed crimes, and the
8 civilian population. In the first category, prisoners of war, when it
9 comes to their physical integrity, food, hygiene, and so on, after they
10 are identified exclusive" --
11 Q. Mr. Markovic, we'll come to that. So I take note of my learned
12 friend's intervention.
13 So Mr. Kovac is discussing three categories. The first category
14 are military prisoners of war. And in this sentence he says that
15 military or civilians organs of the judiciary have authority over those.
16 In the next passage, he discusses the second category. And these
17 are persons who have committed crimes. And he says that the judiciary
18 and the police organs have authority over them.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And then let's move on to page 3,
20 please. Next page.
21 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, it's a little past time for the usual
22 break. Would it be convenient to stop at this point and resume? Yes.
23 We will do that.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE HALL: You may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Markovic, on the last page of this document, Mr. Kovac deals
8 with the third category of persons, that is, the civilian population.
9 And you can see that he says here that as regards the accommodation of
10 these persons, it's charities, NGOs that have to deal with these persons,
11 and the local authorities, that they have to be provided with the minimum
12 conditions. And that if they want to leave the area, they should be able
13 to do so. I think you said that one of the main reasons why your
14 commission was established was to ensure the free movement of civilians.
15 Am I right?
16 A. Yes, you're quite right. That was one of the tasks of the
18 Q. In the next passage, Mr. Kovac goes on to put forward his
19 opinion, that all these categorise of persons should be treated according
20 to the requirements of the international institutions, regardless of the
21 manner in which the opposite side treats the Serbian population.
22 I think you spoke about this, that you said that your work was
23 based on humanitarian principles and international law. Is that right?
24 A. Yes, you're quite right. In this document, in the first
25 paragraph, the second sentence, it says that civilians can only be given
1 refugee status. They are not prisoners of war.
2 Q. The last thing to which I wish to draw your attention in this
3 document is on page 1.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can we please go back to
5 page 1.
6 Q. Mr. Markovic, we see that Mr. Kovac's observations contained in
7 this document were forwarded to the president of the Serbian Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the prime minister of the Serb Republic of
10 You will agree with me that the president of Republika Srpska as
11 the commander-in-chief is authorised to deal with all these categorise of
12 persons, but especially as the commander-in-chief he is authorised to
13 deal with the categorise of prisoners of war and issues of their
14 accommodation and treatment, and that this document was send to the right
15 address, as far as this area is concerned. Am I right?
16 A. Yes, you're quite right, sir. Because if anyone held the status,
17 it was the president of the republic. So the document was really sent to
18 the right people: The president of the republic, and the prime minister.
19 Q. You have anticipated the second part of my question. The
20 government was also authorised to deal with all the categorise of persons
21 mentioned here and all these issues, as shown by the establishment of
22 your commission by the government. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, that's right. The government implemented its orders through
24 the Ministry of Justice, which was, in a manner of speaking, superior to
25 this commission. It was its superior.
1 Q. Very well. I have now dealt with the evidence put to you by my
2 learned friend.
3 Now I'll show you several exhibits and documents dealing with
4 these three categories of persons and the way they were taken carry of
5 and accommodated in certain facilities.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have on the screen
7 65 ter 1396, please.
8 Q. Mr. Markovic, this is a decision on the establishment of
9 penitentiary-re-education institutions in the territory of the
10 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And on page 2 -- can we go on to
12 page 2 so we can see who issued this decision. Let's see the signature
13 at the bottom of the page.
14 Q. The then-acting -- those acting for the president, Presidency
15 members, Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic?
16 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... think this is an
17 exhibit already in evidence. It's 1D164.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I omitted to
19 mention this. It is, in fact, 1D164.
20 Q. Mr. Markovic, you, as a policeman, were familiar with the fact
21 that, on the territory of Republika Srpska there are penitentiary
22 re-education facilities which existed before the war, during the war, and
23 which still exist today, after the war?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We will have to divide them into two subcategories, and I will
1 ask you to confirm what I say.
2 In the seat of every district court, there was and still is a
3 district prison which has a remand unit where persons on trial are
4 inmates. And then there is another part where persons who have been
5 sentenced to a prison sentence, not very high prison sentences, serve
6 their sentence.
7 Are aware of this?
8 A. Yes, of course. This principle existed before the war, even
9 during the war, and it still exists. All district courts have a district
10 prison with these two categories of inmates that you mentioned.
11 Q. You should be aware that the conditions and the way re --
12 detention on remand or the serving of prison sentences are implemented
13 are under the authority of the president of the district court.
14 Are you aware of this?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The second subcategory of these institutions are penitentiary
17 re-education organisations where persons sentenced to long prison
18 sentences serve their sentence; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct. And the wardens and their deputies are
20 appointed exclusively by the minister of justice.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter said "minister."
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The Ministry of Justice deal with both types of institutions,
24 district prisons and penitentiary re-education organisations, and within
25 the Ministry of Justice there is even an administrative officer dealing
1 exclusively with these issues. He is in charge -- he or she is in charge
2 of implementing prison sentences. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I think it's actually not an administrative officer but an
4 assistant minister for the execution of sanctions, or prison sentences.
5 Q. Yes, you are right; I was wrong.
6 And let's clarify this. Both types of institutions have their
7 own security service, the uniformed and armed prison police; is that
8 right? Or, rather, prison guards, to be more precise.
9 A. That's correct. They wear blue uniforms, like the police, but
10 they have different insignia on their sleeves. On these insignias, it
11 says "judiciary police" or the name of the institution in which they
13 Q. Very well. I'll move on to a specific institution of this type.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So let's look at 1D03-4449.
15 Q. Mr. Markovic, you are certainly aware of the fact that one of
16 these penal and correctional institutions was Butmir.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you aware that the remand prison or prison in Vogosca was, in
19 fact, a department of the institution in Butmir? That stems from this
20 document, but I'm asking you about your personal knowledge of this.
21 A. I know that before the war there was a prison called Butmir. It
22 was, in fact, a detention unit of the semi-open type.
23 As for its being a department in Vogosca, I really don't know
24 about that. It was all within the competence of the Ministry of Justice.
25 Q. Very well. Since you don't know, I'll move on. The document
1 speaks for itself.
2 MR. HANNIS: [Previous translation continues] ... I have an
3 objection about the document. I guess it's not being tendered yet, but
4 there's no date on it either, so I don't know if it's relevant if we
5 can't tie it to the relevant time-period.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't tendering this document,
8 so I don't think that's a problem.
9 MR. HANNIS: Well, if he's not tendering it, then he shouldn't
10 say it speaks for itself. That's my objection.
11 JUDGE HALL: Let's move on.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's now have 65 ter 1395.
13 Q. So this may be a response to my learned friend's objection. And
14 on the 65 ter list we have the official document which shows that there
15 was a department or a prison in Vogosca and that it belonged to the
16 Ministry of Justice, and I only want to ask the witness whether he is
17 aware that a private house was being used for the needs of this
18 department. And the first and last name of the owner are mentioned in
19 this document.
20 Did you ever hear about the building called Planjina Kuca, as
21 mentioned in this document?
22 A. No, I never heard of this decision, and I never heard -- I didn't
23 know about this building.
24 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. I would indicate for the record this is
25 also an exhibit in evidence, P1327, and it can be speak for itself.
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree with the Prosecution, and,
2 in fact, this is by way of explanation of my previous document to the
3 effect that there was an official prison in Vogosca and that in the
4 Vogosca department there was a private house where a department of that
5 prison was set up, all within the Ministry of Justice. And this is
6 relevant because Planjo's House, Planjina Kuca, was mentioned quite often
7 by previous witnesses.
8 But apparently we cannot pursue this topic any further with this
9 witness, so I propose that we move on to our next document, and that is
11 Q. Mr. Markovic, here we have a document issued by the municipality
12 of Sokolac where they respond to the Ministry of Justice to their request
13 that one of the buildings in the territory of that municipality be turned
14 into an investigation centre or remand prison.
15 And now I'm asking you whether can you conclude, based on this
16 text, what this building was? Can you do that, since are you from that
18 A. Well, I don't know where this building is, but I heard that
19 people were considering setting up this kind of facility in Sokolac. But
20 I really don't know where it was because there were quite a few Muslim
21 villages around Sokolac.
22 Q. We can conclude, based on your answer, that this is a health care
23 facility of some sort.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So you will agree with me that the minister of justice obviously
1 did not have enough space and was looking for appropriate solutions where
2 to put some categories of persons under the jurisdiction of the ministry;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's precisely what happened. Because all official
5 prisons were quite far away from Sokolac, and it was difficult to get to
7 Q. Very well. These were documents from the minister of justice.
8 Now I'm going to show you a document from our 65 ter list, 1531.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Cvijetic, on the previous document, I read we
10 can -- in the transcript:
11 "We can conclude, based on your answer, that this is a health
12 care facility of some sort."
13 Unless something is missing in the translation or in the
14 transcript, I couldn't see that. It isn't -- it -- it could eventually
15 be concluded when reading the document but not by hearing the answer of
16 the witness.
17 Did we miss something in the English translation?
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I followed your
19 instructions. I said based on the text of the response to the ministry
20 one can conclude that this was a health care facility.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Then there was problem in the transcript.
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I had the same thought, but then I read
23 the answer carefully. And at page 66, line 23, it says, Well, I don't
24 know where this --
25 The answer was:
1 Well, I don't know where this building is, but I heard that
2 people were building -- were considering setting up this kind of facility
3 in Sokolac.
4 So I thought maybe that was a reference to the document itself
5 where it says something about a medical facility, and so I didn't object,
6 but I think your point is well taken.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Markovic, we have seen how the Minister of Justice worked
10 formally, so to speak, on setting up this kind of institutions. But here
11 we have an order from the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of
12 Vogosca where they issue a direct order to the prison warden to release
13 46 people, giving precise instructions as to how this is to be done.
14 So I'm asking you whether your commission did come across of this
15 kind of interference on the part of local authorities, Crisis Staffs,
16 Presidencies, local or municipal and so on, in your work, because you
17 will agree with me that under the rules and regulations, it was the
18 justice ministry that was supposed to decide on the fate of those
19 prisoners. Is that so?
20 A. I fully agree with you. And what they did infringed on the
21 jurisdiction of the commission, whose member I was. But many
22 municipalities in the field, on the ground, had their own Crisis Staffs,
23 and those Crisis Staffs were the Alpha and Omega of the work of the
24 entire municipality.
25 As you can see from this document, the Crisis Staff issued an
1 order. I'm referring to the Crisis Staff of the Vogosca municipality.
2 So they were in a position to effect exchanges themselves bypassing the
3 official State Commission for Exchanges.
4 Q. You obviously are unaware of this document, this order. This is
5 the first time that you've read it?
6 A. Yes. Precisely. This is the first time that I see it.
7 Q. Very well. And when we're talking about the Ministry of Justice
8 and these facilities, let me conclude by using another document from the
9 65 ter list.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And that is 65 ter 1402. And it
11 is an exhibit too, P1318.22.
12 Q. Mr. Markovic, I will give you some time to familiarise yourself
13 with the document, and then I'm going to ask you some questions about it.
14 This is a document from 1994, but it deals with the issue that
15 covered one -- 1991 and 1992 and that is the admission of Muslim
16 civilians in the Butmir correctional and penitentiary facility, penal and
17 correctional facility. So we come to the third category of persons that
18 we discussed, the category of refugees.
19 You will agree with me that the fact that they were housed in
20 this institution did not affect their status, because they were not
21 prisoners of war and they were not convicts?
22 A. Yes, that's precisely the case. The document is dated the
23 28th of October, 1994. I was already working in the MUP by that time,
24 and I was no longer a member of the commission. They were not considered
25 as prisoners of war. But they were considered as refugees that had to be
1 forwarded in order to achieve the re-unification of family or to achieve
2 freedom of movement, to allow them to go wherever they want to go. And
3 here it says that Captain Dragan Bulajic was the president of the
4 Central Commission. We mentioned him as a representative of the
5 Republika Srpska army doing the exchanges.
6 Q. The only reason why I called up this document is to try to show
7 that sometimes it was not easy to categorise persons and, in particular,
8 to find appropriate accommodation for each category.
9 Practically here, they were put in an official penal institution
10 and their status was that of refugees and they were put there only
11 because they had to be housed somewhere. Do you agree with me?
12 A. Yes, absolutely. Because they were in transit, in fact, if I may
13 call it that. They were passing through the Serb territory with a
14 destination in the Muslim territory, and they were treated as refugees,
15 but they were housed in a penal and correctional facility.
16 Q. Very well. This completes the line of questioning dealing with
17 one type of a facilities where people were detained, and now I will move
18 on to the next type of such facilities and another category of persons;
19 the first category from the report that we read.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P61.2.
21 Q. Mr. Markovic, this is a document issued by
22 Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic in which he orders the corps - you can
23 see that in item 2 - to set up appropriate facilities in which to keep
24 the first category of persons, i.e., prisoners of war, also specifying
25 the conditions in line with international conventions. And also, which
1 is of interest to us now here, is contained in item number 3 where he
2 orders that the corps command shall independently set up prisoner
3 exchanges, providing instructions as to how this is to be done.
4 Can you see this from this document?
5 A. Yes, I can see it in the document, but I trust this had to do
6 only with the prisoners of war held by either the Republika Srpska army
7 or the BH army, so it's only logical for commissions to -- established in
8 the army to do the exchanges because a single Central Commission could
9 not deal with the civilians, the soldiers, and refugees and so on.
10 Q. Well, yes, this was the essence of my question. In other words,
11 did you know that the army commissions for exchange of prisoners were
12 working parallel to your commission?
13 A. I learnt that only later when I met Captain Dragan Bulajic who
14 had an office in Grbavica, in Sarajevo, and another office in Lukavica in
15 the barracks there.
16 Q. Very well. So we can see how the army dealt with this issue.
17 And now let us look at how the Supreme Command or the Supreme Commander
18 dealt with this issue, at least when it comes to this kind of -- this
19 category of persons.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So could we please look at 65 ter
21 2079, please.
22 Q. At the very bottom of this page of this Official Gazette, you can
23 see the order. Yes. Right-hand side, bottom of the page, "order."
24 A. On the application of the rules --
25 Q. Yes. This is an order on the application of the Rules of
1 International Law of War in the Army of the Serbian Republic of
3 And can we then move on to the next page of this Official Gazette
4 where it was published.
5 And let us look at item 2. The president of the Serbian Republic
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina Radovan Karadzic says that:
7 As for the application of the Rules of International Law of War,
8 the commanders in the army are -- shall be responsible for this
9 application and all other members of the army or the armed forces taking
10 part in the armed -- in combat.
11 So you will agree with me that this document is related to the
12 previous document issued by General Ratko Mladic?
13 A. Absolutely, yes.
14 Q. And in point 3, the minister of defence is authorised to
15 prescribe the -- or, rather, to draw up the instructions on how prisoners
16 should be treated.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, I see it.
19 Q. Very well. As this is an exhibit, we can now look at P189, and
20 we can see the instructions drawn up by the minister.
21 You know that Mr. Subotic was the minister of defence?
22 A. Yes, Bogdan Subotic.
23 Q. Here, the rights and obligations of military personnel in
24 categorising and looking after prisoners are described in details -- in
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And if we go on to the next page.
2 Q. It deals with issues of camps and so on.
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So you will agree with me that the authorised body dealing with
6 these issues was the president or Presidency of the republic, as we have
7 already seen. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But the issue of civilians, and I told you this in the preamble
10 to one of my questions, was something that was dealt with by the
11 Presidency as a state organ, not as Commander-in-Chief.
12 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And it's P587.
13 Q. Here you can see an order issued by Mr. Karadzic.
14 A. I'm sorry, I can't see the text very well. It's very dark.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask the technical staff to
16 help you. There you are.
17 Q. Please pay attention to point 3.
18 The president here is dealing with the issue you mentioned and
19 that is the free movement of civilians. So this order contains the basis
20 for work on the free movement of civilians even by your commission, even
21 though your commission was appointed by the government. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'll show you some minutes from a session of the Presidency of
24 Republika Srpska dated the 9th of October, 1992.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's P179.5.
1 Q. I think it's paragraph 5, beginning with the words:
2 "There has been no exchange of prisoners ..."
3 Do you see that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you read it to the end? You don't have to read it aloud;
6 just read it silently to yourself.
7 So my question is the following: Answering a question put to you
8 by the Prosecutor, you said that the minister of justice was authorised
9 to negotiate exchanges on his own. And here we see that the Presidency
10 also dealt with a specific -- a particular exchange. So evidently this
11 was a problem which occupied state organs such as the Presidency and the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Let me just ask you what exchange this was about, what particular
15 exchange; if you know?
16 A. No. The minutes are dated the 9th of October, but I really don't
17 know what this refers to.
18 I can tell you that very often the opposite side, instead of
19 bringing the people we asked for on our lists, would bring along
20 children, elderly people, women, only to satisfy the number of people to
21 be exchanged that was required.
22 Q. Very well. So I have now concluded with this topic, the
23 activities of the president and the Presidency, as regards exchanges and
24 the treatment of these three categories of persons. And now I would like
25 to move on to a set of documents issued by the Government of Republika
1 Srpska in order to show the way in which the government dealt with this
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So could we now have P200. 2-0-0.
4 Q. You see that this refers to a government session of the
5 29th of July, 1992.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the Serbian version,
7 please. Yes, thank you.
8 And can we move on to the next page and look at point 7 and 8.
9 7 and 8.
10 Q. Mr. Markovic, this is a situation you discussed with the
11 Prosecutor when Mr. Vanovac was appointed because here under point 7
12 under the seventh item on the agenda we see that the proposal for
13 appointing a president to the Central Commission for the Exchange of War
14 Prisoners was on the agenda, as well as agreement on the conditions and
15 way of exchanging war prisoners.
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. To see what this is about, we have to find the discussion, what
19 was said about these items on the agenda.
20 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll give you the ERN number
21 because ... it's 0124-5452.
22 It's page 6 in e-court I've just been told.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Could you please repeat the ERN number.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, I have received assistance.
25 It's on page 6 of the same document.
1 Yes, here we see it.
2 Q. Mr. Markovic, we now have the reply to the question of when
3 Mr. Vanovac was appointed and how. So here we see that the minister of
4 justice proposed him.
5 A. Yes, I see it. It's number 7.
6 Q. And you say that he turned up, that he introduced himself to you.
7 But it seems that he arrived before his appointment. Are you sure of
9 A. Yes. He came to Pale once and said that he had been appointed
10 president of the Central Commission by the Ministry of Justice, or on
11 behalf of the Ministry of Justice -- or, rather, that he had been
12 appointed by Momcilo Mandic, the then-minister.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. Just a moment. Some 20 days, or maybe a month later, he came
15 again, and he showed me a document and even asked me to hand over the
16 seal of the Central Commission, the stamp, which he took to Ilidza.
17 Q. I'll ask you something else about this document.
18 In item 8, there's mention of an agreement on the conditions and
19 way of exchange of prisoners. Do you know what this refers to? Was
20 there such agreement, and did you implement it in your work?
21 A. I think this was an agreement that war prisoners should be
22 exchanged for war prisoners only on condition that the number of men
23 should be equal. I think there's also mention of the wounded on both
24 sides, as well as the exchange of bodies of fighters killed on both side.
25 I think. I saw an agreement like that.
1 Q. I will show you one from the Prosecution set of exhibits and then
2 one from the Defence set of exhibits.
3 So, first, I'll show you P1427.23 [as interpreted]. It's P427 -
4 not 1427 - .23.
5 Please read this document through and then I'll ask you questions
6 about it.
7 Have you read it?
8 A. Yes. But it's not the document I was referring to.
9 Q. I'll show you the one I think you were referring to.
10 A. I have never seen this document.
11 Q. Can you just read in the text, it says that:
12 In this agreement, the signatories established certain principles
13 as to how exchanges were to be carried out, and they resemble the
14 principles from the government decision on the appointment of your
16 Do you agree with what I've just said? Just look at the
17 principles once again.
18 A. Yes, yes. These were the same principles that were mentioned in
19 the decision.
20 Q. In your work, you adhered to these principles, did you not?
21 A. Yes, absolutely.
22 Q. Well, I can't find this other document, so I will now deal with
23 another topic for the remainder of our time today. And that is the issue
24 that I raised with the document from Vogosca, the fact that various
25 Crisis Staffs and local authorities, local Presidencies, were involved in
1 the exchanges of prisoners, the release of those prisoners.
2 So now I would like to show you document 1D167.
3 You can see here that the Crisis Staff of the municipality, you
4 can see that that's the municipality of Prijedor?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Decides for all intents and purposes the fate of these people and
7 in the items that follow categorises the persons who are to be released
8 from imprisonment. You will agree with me that this looks very much like
9 what we saw in Vogosca, what the War Commission issued there, again, the
10 Crisis Staff, a local authority, decides on the fate of these people?
11 A. Well, precisely. It's the exact same cases we saw in the case of
12 the Vogosca municipality where the Crisis Staff issues a decision to
13 release the prisoners and detainees. But this is dated the
14 2nd of June, 1992, and we couldn't get to Prijedor. We couldn't even fly
15 there from Pale. All the roads were blocked, so it was really impossible
16 to get to Prijedor and to do anything about that, to hold any kind of
18 Q. Well, you, in fact, anticipated what I was going to ask you. And
19 that's precisely whether you were able to follow all these events
20 throughout the territory of Bosnia -- or, rather, of Republika Srpska?
21 Now that you've raised this issue, in what parts of
22 Republika Srpska were you able to know what was going on?
23 A. Well, I was able to see directly what was going on in the
24 Sarajevo region, because there were roads there, although there were
25 sniper incidents, but it was only in October that I reached Banja Luka,
1 in late October. My presence was requested by the Croat commission
2 because we wanted to effect an exchange in Zitnic, a place between Knin
3 and Sibenik, the Croat and Serb prisoners were to be exchanged.
4 Q. From this category, I will show you just P1494; it's an exhibit.
5 We're back in the municipality of Vogosca. And what I find
6 interesting in this document is that it is headed the Serbian
7 municipality of Vogosca, and you can see that it has a department for
8 justice administration and regulations. Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I'm looking at it, and I'm marvelling how a municipality can
10 have a department for justice administration and regulations.
11 As far as I know, no municipalities had courts, basic courts, any
12 other judicial organs of that kind. I mean, not the municipality, but --
13 as a territorial unit, but the Municipal Assembly as a body.
14 Q. Well, that's precisely why I showed you this document, because
15 this department again decides on the fate of the detained persons, and
16 they're listed here by name, and it is doing your job, job -- the job of
17 your commission.
18 A. Absolutely, yes, it was our job. Absolutely it was our job. And
19 we were supposed to do that. But you can see this, that the Crisis Staff
20 did that. In fact, it was their justice department of theirs. It was
22 Q. So we can perhaps finish with a statement. I think that this
23 question was asked already. Obviously your commission had problems in
24 its work. In order to be able to function as it was supposed to, as
25 stipulated by the decision to establish it, it encountered problems of
1 this sort.
2 A. Of course, we had a lot of problems, primarily because the phone
3 lines were down, and the provisions in the decision of the prime minister
4 could not be complied with because of the war, and there was no
5 communication whatsoever. And that was the only reason why we wanted to
6 step down because we knew that -- or, rather, although we didn't know
7 there were any such decisions of the -- this justice department of the
8 Vogosca municipality.
9 Q. Well, we are now in your neighbourhood. Can you tell us how far
10 in the territory of the municipality of Sarajevo or Pale, where you
11 were -- or, rather, can you describe the area which was out of your
12 bounds, which could you not reach in the municipality of Sarajevo and
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to
15 repeat his answer.
16 A. The Serb territory was very small. It was confined to Pale,
17 although --
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I have to interrupt you. It appears that my question was not
20 recorded in the transcript -- or, rather, it appears that your answer was
21 not recorded right from the beginning. Could you please repeat it.
22 A. At that time, the Serb territory in Pale was very small, although
23 the Serb army held the area around Sarajevo while the city itself was
24 under the control of the federal part of Bosnia. All we could do was to
25 meet at the demarcation line between the municipalities of Pale and
1 Stari Grad and to conduct the exchanges of both prisoners of war and also
2 to ensure the freedom of movement of the civilians who wanted to leave
3 Sarajevo and go to Pale while it was still possible to do that, because,
4 later on, Serbs no longer could do that.
5 Q. My specific question for you is: Were you able to communicate
6 physically with Ilidza or, for instance, Trebinje?
7 A. No way, we could not. We were able to have some kind of contact,
8 limited contact with Ilidza perhaps for the first few days before the
9 telephone lines were completely destroyed. And, for instance, in
10 Lukavica, where I went to attend meetings with Amor Masovic, in a SFOR,
11 IFOR, or whatever it was, APC, we travelled through paths in the woods
12 that had been cleared recently, and -- to get there, to Lukavica.
13 Q. Just complete your answer regarding Trebinje.
14 A. Well, what to say about Trebinje? It's in the far south of
15 Republika Srpska.
16 Q. You mean to say that did you not have any physical communication
17 with them?
18 A. No way, we did not.
19 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I am observing the time, and I
20 would like to show the witness just a few documents on a slightly
21 different topic, so perhaps I should not now embark on that.
22 So unless you're opposed and unless the Prosecution is opposed,
23 perhaps we can finish for today and then continue tomorrow.
24 JUDGE HALL: I agree, Mr. Cvijetic.
25 Mr. Markovic, we are about to take the adjournment for today.
1 You, having been sworn as a witness, I am to remind you that you cannot
2 have any communication whatever with counsel from either side in this
3 matter; and, moreover, in such conversations as you may have with persons
4 outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony.
5 So we adjourn now, to resume in this courtroom at 9.00 tomorrow
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day
10 of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.