1 Tuesday, 13 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good morning to everyone. May we take today's appearances,
11 MR. HANNIS: Good morning, all. I'm Tom Hannis along with
12 Crispian Smith for the Office of the Prosecutor.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry, Your Honour. Slobodan Zecevic,
14 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
15 the Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For Zupljanin
17 Defence, Igor Pantelic.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. And the Registrar -- sorry. The Usher
19 may escort the witness back to the stand if there is nothing --
20 MR. HANNIS: As the witness is coming in, Your Honour, I just
21 wanted to indicate -- to request your attention to a matter regarding
22 Ewa Tabeau. She's a Prosecution witness we hope to call as the last
23 witness before the break, and there's matters pending that -- that we
24 need a decision from you about whether we can use her new report, whether
25 she will testify as an expert, et cetera.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL: Thanks for the reminder.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to you, Mr. Markovic. Before
5 Mr. Cvijetic resumes his cross-examination, I would remind you you're
6 still on your oath.
7 Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: SLOBODAN MARKOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Markovic, good morning.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Well, we can't away from this. We have to keep on going.
15 A. Certainly, I am here.
16 Q. Yesterday I showed you minutes from a government session of the
17 Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of 28 July 1992, and we saw
18 that the government discussed and supported the agreement on the
19 conditions and manner of prisoner exchanges.
20 Do you recall that?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the 22nd of July.
22 MR. CVIJETIC:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Following that, I showed you a -- an agreement
24 that I thought was the relevant one, agreement that was signed in Geneva
25 on the 23rd of May, 1992, and agreed upon by representatives of the
1 Serbian and the Muslim parties, or sides. However, you pointed out that
2 this could not have been the relevant agreement and that the government
3 probably, at its session, discussed and deliberated on another agreement,
4 and I did not show it to you yesterday because I misplaced it; it was in
5 the Prosecutor's binder yesterday and I couldn't pull it out immediately
6 so I would like to do it now.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up P1318.26.
8 Q. Mr. Markovic, before you read this first agreement that we have
9 on the monitors, let me just say that the agreement that we are going to
10 discuss is attached to this -- to this contract.
11 Would you please take a look at this contract before I put
12 several questions to you.
13 Have you seen -- have you read through it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You see, this is a contract reached, concluded between two
16 representatives of two commissions, the Serbian commission and the Muslim
17 commission, but with the mediation of UNPROFOR representatives.
18 Can you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. However, if we look at the text of this agreement, would you
21 agree with me that this was agreement that actually related to one
22 particular exchange, an ad hoc, as it were, exchange, in a certain area,
23 because the agreement does not include some general -- general provisions
24 on the principles which would be applied throughout the territory, the
25 demarcation territory and so on.
1 So let me ask you: Do you know anything about this agreement and
2 can you shed some light on that?
3 A. This agreement, I've never actually seen it before. It is true
4 that it pertains to one particular exchange, a single exchange, and it's
5 probably an exchange somewhere around Ilidza. I assume that, because the
6 Serbian side, the representative whose side on their behalf was
7 Nenad Vanovac, and the stamp was not the commission stamp but, rather,
8 the Serbian Democratic Party of Ilidza stamp, as you can read for
9 yourself, the Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party at Ilidza.
10 So probably the agreement and the list relate to the exchange in
11 Ilidza, around Ilidza, or somewhere in that general area. And for this
12 document, itself, I have never seen it before.
13 Q. Thank you. I have to admit that I've actually -- I did not note
14 what you've just told us about the stamp, but you did confirm that this
15 was a specific exchange that this document relates to?
16 A. Yes, absolutely. Because we see that the stamp reads Ilidza
17 or -- or Vojkovici, some of those areas.
18 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you agree that this issue, the issue of prisoner
19 exchanges in wartime, the free movement of civilians and security of
20 those individuals who are waiting to be exchanged, would you agree that
21 this is a major issue that has to be discussed and decided upon by the
22 highest representatives of the Serbian or Muslim nations specifically,
23 but that the international community should also participate in that type
24 of agreement to provide guarantees that it will be abided by and
1 Would you agree with what I've just said?
2 JUDGE HALL: I assume, Mr. Cvijetic, that that was a question and
3 not a speech. I don't know what the witness can make of that.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will rephrase my
7 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you consider that this problem that you've also
8 dealt with at the time in question should have been resolved and
9 discussed by the highest authorities and representatives of these
10 parties, as well as members of the international community?
11 A. I fully agree with what you've just said, and especially in
12 relation to the presence of the international community, because whenever
13 I arranged some exchanges, it was always done with the presence of the
14 UNPROFOR because they were there as a sort of judge and referee.
15 Q. This is the following page of the document, and we should have
16 the attachment to the agreement here, and this is something that we would
17 need to discuss now.
18 Mr. Markovic, I'm going give you some time again just to look at
19 the document and then we will comment on it.
20 Have you had the opportunity to look at the first page of the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You can see in the introductory paragraph, the agreement is an
24 agreement that is concluded between the highest representatives of the
25 Serbian and the Muslim people, between, thus, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, on
1 behalf of the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina and
2 Alija Izetbegovic and representatives of state commissions for the
3 exchange of prisoners, as it says at the top.
4 You will see, however, that the date is missing, so we will
5 remember this bit because when we finish this document -- with this
6 document, I will go back to discuss the point why there is no date here.
7 So let us just go through some of the provisions of this
8 agreement now.
9 You can see in item 1, that the subject of the agreement is
10 noted. This is something that you dealt with in your commission as well.
11 Isn't that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In item 2, it is said that the exchanges should be carried out
14 through the commissions that should be formed by both sides. Do you see
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. In paragraph 3, the priorities are set about the unconditional
18 release of certain categories of persons, and what is meant here are
19 primarily civilians. Do you see that paragraph?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In paragraph 4, it is stated that the commissions should exchange
22 the lists of detained persons. And then towards the end, the principle
23 all for all that you mentioned is also referred to. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And just help us here with this principle. If you can just
1 confirm that this principle is supposed to guarantee that there will be
2 no individual trading and bargaining one for one and so on and so forth
3 but it will be an all-for-all exchange. I think you were explaining a
4 little bit about that yesterday. Is that how matters were?
5 A. I have to say that this principle all for all functioned sometime
6 at the very beginning of the war. However, afterwards, the principle was
7 not applied. For example, a high-ranking officer of the Serbian army
8 would be exchanged for 15 or 20 Muslim fighters, and they would be
9 requested by name, so the principle actually became meaningless as the
10 combat progressed.
11 Q. Yes, that is why I asked you. You will agree with me that the
12 principle was put in the agreement with justification. There was a
13 reason to put it in the agreement. Would you agree with that?
14 A. Yes, yes, I would. But I'm noting that the principle was applied
15 at the beginning of the war, for a month or two.
16 Q. Very well. We already said that.
17 Paragraph 5, you can see here that the agreement provides for the
18 encouragement of agreements at local levels. And I have to remind you,
19 you said that your Central Commission objectively could not cover the
20 whole territory, and you will agree that this agreement actually
21 acknowledges that. Would you agree?
22 A. Yes, I agree completely. Because physically it was impossible
23 for us to approach and to cover everything, because of the roads and
24 everything. However, the commissions were unable to provide us with the
25 lists of exchanged persons also because it was not possible to
2 Q. All right. Item 6, we can just briefly say that the agreement is
3 also covering the exchange of dead bodies. So it is not only about the
4 exchange of people who are alive but also the exchange of bodies.
5 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to paragraph 7,
6 which is on the following page, please.
7 Q. In paragraph 7, there is an agreement on the release of all
8 detained JNA soldiers. Do you see that?
9 And then item 8 refers to other priority categories, and these
10 would be journalists, medical science and culture workers, public
11 workers, priests, and so on and so forth.
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you can see in paragraph 9 the agreement is reached on the
15 humane treatment of prisoners. And I think this principle is also noted
16 in the decision on your commission.
17 A. Not only do I remember it; I know it off by heart.
18 Q. What is interesting to me is paragraph 11, where the agreement
19 provides for the sides enabling each other to check on the living
20 conditions of the prisoners, guaranteeing mutual safety and return.
21 So let us try to interpret this as meaning that you as a
22 representative of the commission and your colleague, on the Muslim side,
23 could cross the line of separation wherever you had information that
24 there were prisoners and you had the right to inspect those facilities.
25 Do you interpret this provision in the same way, in the way that
1 I have just interpreted it?
2 A. According to the agreement reached with the Muslim side that is
3 how it should have been. However, this was not actually possible to
4 implement. Who among the Serbs could enter the notorious Viktor Bubanj
5 prison in the barracks of the same name or enter the central prison which
6 is located in central Sarajevo?
7 So this actually never happened on either side; I have to mention
9 Q. The gist of my questions relating to this agreement actually is
10 aimed at establishing the reasons why this did not happen. So now we
11 will quickly move to item 14 where the parties would commit themselves to
12 prevent occurrences of unlawful arrests, to ban blackmail, and I think
13 that we will agree that this principle all for all would eliminate these
14 options from item 14. Would you agree?
15 A. Yes, to a large degree. Yes, of course, I agree entirely. And
16 the principle all for all has been eliminated here completely and I will
17 explain that with one detail.
18 For example, when a brother of one of the Serbs would be
19 arrested, then the army would arrest a Muslim, and then there would be
20 private negotiations for the exchange of his brother for this Muslim
21 person. There were many such occurrences because war is a difficult
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see item 17 of the
24 document; also in the B/C/S, please.
25 Q. And you can see here that the contracting parties have committed
1 themselves to invite representatives of the UN High Commissioner for
2 Refugees and UNPROFOR representatives as well as representatives of the
3 Red Cross of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Red Cross of the
4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and representatives of the International
5 Red Cross.
6 We have now come to the introductory part of my question. You
7 would agree, wouldn't you, that an agreement as detailed as this could be
8 applied only with the presence of all these entities referred to in
9 paragraph 17.
10 Would you agree?
11 A. I agree with you, absolutely. It's an ideally written agreement
12 except that it was not possible to implement it in the field. And I'm
13 noting here that the agreement was signed only by the Serbian side. It
14 was signed by the president of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and the president of the exchange
16 commission, Nenad Vanovac. And there are no signatures by
17 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mr. Filip Vukovic.
18 So I'm not sure to what extent this agreement is valid.
19 Q. My reasons for dealing with this agreement precisely are in this,
20 and that is that it was evidently not signed by the Muslim side because
21 we will remind ourselves again of the introductory party where there was
22 no date because it was to be expected that they would sign such
24 So there was just a draft agreement, or an offer, from the
25 Serbian side to the Muslim side to resolve this particular problem in
1 this particular way. Would you agree with what I have just said?
2 A. Yes, I do agree. And evidently, the Muslim side did not agree to
3 it because they probably didn't like it.
4 Q. And you will agree with me that by signing and implementing this
5 agreement, many ugly things that later happened in the area of prisoner
6 exchanges and prisoner camps would have been prevented had both sides
7 bilaterally respected each one of these provisions and had the
8 international community guaranteed the implementation of this agreement.
9 Would not those negative things that happened have been prevented
10 by that?
11 A. If the agreement had been implemented, it would have been very
12 good for both sides and all the ugly things could have been avoided,
13 especially if members of SFOR had always been present during prisoner
14 exchanges, or members -- representatives of the International Red Cross.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Markovic, you said just a short while ago
16 that you thought that the reason why the Muslims hadn't signed this draft
17 agreement was that they probably didn't like it.
18 What makes you conclude that they didn't like it? What, in your
19 view, would have caused the Muslims to abstain from signing, if you know?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know precisely, but I
21 believe that this agreement did not go in their favour for the simple
22 reason that only in the city of Sarajevo, where I live, there were more
23 than 200.000 Serbs left behind, and pursuant to this agreement, they
24 should have released them all, freed them from Sarajevo. But they held
25 them as hostages and mistreated them in their prisons.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Do you mean to say that the Muslim side held
2 200.000 Serbs in prisons in -- within Sarajevo?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in prisons but in Sarajevo
4 itself and some in prisons. Because people were living in Sarajevo but
5 under daily stress, fear, daily killings in buildings, but they were
6 unable to leave Sarajevo in any case.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did the -- did the draft agreement make any
8 distinction between prisoners of war and detained civilians?
9 Forgive me for not picking this up when we went through the
10 agreement, but I didn't see any provision to this effect so I'm just
11 asking you, who are more familiar with the draft, if -- if any such
12 distinction was made in the agreement.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. I worked in the
14 Commission for Exchanges of Prisoners of War, and I could not exchange
15 them. However, the citizens of Serb ethnicity who lived in Sarajevo, I
16 could not use them for these exchanges because they did not consider them
17 prisoners. They considered them and used them as shields, human shields,
18 during the combat operations around Sarajevo.
19 Therefore, they did not have an opportunity to leave Sarajevo
20 either through the commission or any other way. The only thing that I
21 could do is exchange prisoners of war but not regular citizens and
23 JUDGE HARHOFF: Excuse me, I thought you told us yesterday that
24 you only dealt with the exchange of civilians; whereas, exchange of
25 prisoners of war would be left to the military commissions.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The name of my commission was the
2 Commission for an Exchange of Prisoners of War. But we also exchanged
3 civilians. Let me explain it. Prisoners of war were civilians. They
4 would, for instance, capture 100 Serbs in Sarajevo and then bring them to
5 the demarcation line and they were considered, in that case, prisoners of
6 war. As for the military aspect, members of both parties would exchange
7 members of the armies, of the respective armies.
8 JUDGE HARHOFF: But it seems to me, from what you now tell us,
9 that both parties, actually, seemed to completely ignore the definitions
10 of a prisoner of war, according to the Geneva Convention, the Third
12 Was that done deliberately, or was it just by ignorance?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in my view, it was out of
14 ignorance. In my view.
15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, yes, because if you were to abide by the
16 Geneva Conventions - this goes for both parties to the conflict - then
17 the detention of civilians would be unlawful unless you would detain them
18 for some -- for the purpose of criminal investigation of some sort. But
19 just to detain civilians in great numbers would be in contravention of
20 the -- both the Third and the Fourth Convention.
21 So my question is: If there was any awareness about these
22 matters in the commission that you worked in.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, of course, there was a
24 certain awareness, and we tried to abide and comply as much as we could
25 to the Geneva Conventions' provisions.
1 However, Judge, you must understand that this was a war of major
2 proportions, and I don't know what your opinion is on this, but do you
3 think that the American army in Vietnam or in Iraq applied those
4 principles? As for us, we did have to -- and, of course, they would have
5 had to abide by the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
6 I mentioned this just for comparative reasons, for comparison.
7 JUDGE HARHOFF: I have no doubts that the rules are broken in
8 every war that has ever been fought in history. But, you see, I'm a
9 Judge and my job to actually make sure that these international norms are
10 respected. Because if they weren't, then things could get really out of
12 Back to you, Mr. Cvijetic.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment, please.
14 Mr. Markovic, this draft agreement we are talking about now did
15 you know of it at the time, or did you learn it lately here or ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've seen it for the first time
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: So when you answered Mr. Cvijetic saying that you
19 agreed that evidentially the Muslim side did not agree to it because they
20 probably didn't like it, that is not something that you know of but
21 that's something you are deducting from the fact that there is no
22 signature on the Muslim side; is that right? You didn't know that this
23 was just a draft and not a signed agreement, or did you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know. I used the word
25 "I assume." That they didn't sign it because it didn't suit them
1 precisely because of the Serbs who were in Sarajevo, held captive there
2 practically, and they couldn't leave the town. They were used as human
3 shields to dig trenches around Sarajevo and for other physical labour.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: But you don't know if it has ever been signed or
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I can see that it wasn't,
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, I would just like to clarify this by putting a few
14 Had this agreement been signed, you would have been the first, as
15 a member of the commission, to know that there was such agreement in
16 place because you would, among other things, have to apply their
17 provisions; correct? Its provisions.
18 A. I could know about it only if Mr. Vanovac, who is the undersigned
19 person here, sent it to me. That would have been the only way for me to
20 have any knowledge about this.
21 Q. Very well. I would just like to remind you of a question that
22 the Prosecutor asked yesterday. In one of the documents, the president
23 of the commission on the Bosnian side, Filip Vukovic, regarding the free
24 flow of civilians that is also mentioned here, referred to it as ethnic
25 cleansing. In that respect, in order to clarify this for the
1 Trial Chamber -- or, rather to provide an illustration, we should mention
2 what the scale of the flow of civilians was and the problems that this
3 posed to the authorities.
4 I would now just like to mention a few facts that I assume you
5 are familiar with.
6 You said that you live and work in Bijeljina; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know that before the war that town, the centre itself,
9 numbered 35.000 inhabitants?
10 A. Yes, around 36.000, that's correct.
11 Q. Do you know that during the war and after the war the number of
12 registered inhabitants, new inhabitants was 52.000. They were refugees
13 or displaced persons. Do you know this fact?
14 A. I know this fact. Bijeljina numbers today around 135.000 people,
15 so --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the -- could the witness please repeat
17 the number of refugees who moved in.
18 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please repeat the figure that you have, because we have the wrong
20 number here. According to you, how many people moved in, subsequently,
21 into Bijeljina?
22 A. Well, about 100.000 people.
23 Q. Do you know the fact that at least twice as many people stayed or
24 passed through Bijeljina, looking for some other place where they could
25 actually settle and find some kind of shelter and accommodation. Do you
1 know that fact?
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd like to object at this point. This
3 is in the nature of tu quoque. We're not tying it to any specific dates.
4 If it's between 1992 and 2010, there could be all kinds of reasons those
5 people passed through, and without that connection, I don't think this
6 evidence is very relevant or useful to you.
7 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we are discussing
8 generally the problem of refugees and displaced persons, and that is the
9 problem that this witness actually dealt with in his work. And after I
10 mentioned these -- some these facts, I will actually -- this is just to
11 provide the foundation for the question that I will put after this and I
12 will go through this briefly and quickly.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I have another objection too.
14 Mr. Cvijetic keeps talking about "these facts I'm suggesting to you."
15 Mr. Cvijetic is not a witness and it's not a fact. He can ask a question
16 based on something he knows but he can't call it a fact at this stage.
17 And he keeps doing it and I would ask that he be directed to stop doing
18 it that way.
19 JUDGE HALL: In other words, Mr. Cvijetic, you must both come
20 rapidly to the point that are you trying to make and remember, as
21 Mr. Hannis has cautioned and as I attempted some while ago to point out
22 to you, you're counsel, not the witness.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will do my
24 best. If you noticed, my questions were direct. They were not leading
25 questions. I just asked the witness whether he knew the bit of
1 information that I gave him.
2 So now could you just briefly tell us, do you know -- did you
3 know about that last figure that I mentioned, about the people who were
4 there in transit?
5 A. Of course. Because not all people could stay in Bijeljina. They
6 would move on to Serbia, Bratunac, Srebrenica, Zvornik.
7 Q. Very well. Now let me ask you this: You will agree, won't you,
8 for Republika Srpska to resolve this problem was to tell these people,
9 You were the victim of ethnic cleansing and just go back to where you
10 have come from.
11 Would this have resolved the problem, according to you?
12 A. I don't think it would have resolved the problem, no way. The
13 simple reason being that, for instance, today, only 1 per cent of
14 Sarajevo population are Croats, and some 4 to 5 per cent are Serbs. And
15 to this day, people are leaving Sarajevo for all sorts of reasons,
16 because they can't get a job, because of religious discrimination, and
17 for all sorts of other reasons.
18 Q. In other words, this mass movement of the populations, the one,
19 the second, and the third group, was something that had to be accepted as
20 a result of the war. And you will agree with me that the authorities of
21 Republika Srpska dealt with this problem and did not ignore the fact or
22 the -- the claim that it was in the aftermath of ethnic cleansing?
23 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I object to that question. It is vague.
24 Which mass movements of the population, the one, the second, the third
25 group? When in time is that? Which people is it? From where to where?
1 How does that relate to anything in our case?
2 That needs some clarification.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, I will be specific.
4 Q. Mr. Markovic, the agreement that you see before you, was it
5 directed at resolving this problem in the proper way?
6 MR. HANNIS: I object again. It's vague. Which problem? And
7 what does "proper way" mean?
8 It's the problem of prisoners? It's the problem of movement of
9 population? Which problem is being asked about here?
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, simply the problem that is
11 dealt with in the agreement.
12 MR. HANNIS: Okay. Can we have pointed to us in the agreement
13 what problem is being addressed?
14 JUDGE HALL: I -- I don't know how helpful this, what we have now
15 gotten bogged down in, is going to be the Trial Chamber at the end of the
17 The -- Mr. Cvijetic, you have spent a considerable amount of time
18 setting the background to this situation and eliciting the witness's
19 observations, in light of his own experience. But for our purposes,
20 could we move on to the precise point that you are trying to make as a
21 matter of evidence.
22 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the essence is this.
23 As this agreement was not signed and therefore implemented, this problem
24 in Republika Srpska was dealt with in the manner that I showed yesterday,
25 when I showed the witness some documents of the state organs, and I would
1 like now to show how Republika Srpska continued to deal with this problem
2 at the local level because this agreement was -- had not been signed.
3 So the point is -- the point we want to make is that
4 Republika Srpska had to resolve this problem irrespective of the fact
5 there were no signatures of both sides, and the problem could not be
6 resolved bilaterally.
7 JUDGE HALL: Before, Mr. Hannis responds, and I expect I know
8 what is he going to say, aren't you sliding into the tu quoque defence.
9 I assume that was the point you were going to make, Mr. Hannis.
10 MR. HANNIS: That and also, Your Honour, maybe it's just me but I
11 still don't understand what "this problem" is. I'm simply asking him to
12 explain what he is talking about. And he keeps referring to the general
13 term of "this problem."
14 I don't know what that is.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the territory of
16 Republika Srpska, and we mentioned one town alone, receives
17 100.000 people from elsewhere, refugees and displaced persons, then that
18 does pose a problem, that the highest organs of authorities have to deal
19 with in a manner that we point -- showed yesterday and that we will see
20 here, too, and that's a problem that cannot be resolved by shutting your
21 eyes and just claiming that this is the problem to do with ethnic
22 cleansing and we're not going to deal with it.
23 So what I'm trying to show here today, and I've shown it
24 yesterday, I would like to show a few documents to show how
25 Republika Srpska tried to resolve this problem by using various methods.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Cvijetic, I would remind you that the stage of
3 the trial that we're at is that we -- evidence is being led from
4 witnesses. You are in the process of cross-examining this witness, so
5 you are testing and probing the evidence that he has given on behalf of
6 the Prosecution and challenging it. But the question of conclusions
7 and -- and what arguments you would wish to make, you would reserve for
8 the end of the exercise when all of the evidence is in.
9 So if you would confine yourself to getting the evidence from the
10 witness while the witness is on the stand, we could get ahead.
11 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.
12 Can we now show the witness document P60.8, please.
13 Q. Mr. Markovic, can you see the title of the document?
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the first page
15 of the document, please. And there is an affirmation by the translator;
16 I just wanted to note that.
17 Q. Mr. Markovic, you can see here that the problem of the refugee
18 population in the area of Sanski Most, for example, is something that the
19 municipal civilian protection staff was dealing with. And you said that
20 some parts of the Serbian Republic of the Krajina were inaccessible to
21 members of the commission for certain periods of time.
22 Can you confirm, however, whether this organ that was dealing
23 with this question was one of those authorised to resolve this problem?
24 A. I said yesterday, Mr. Cvijetic, that Crisis Staffs were
25 established in all the municipalities which were practically the Alpha
1 and Omega of the work of the municipality. This municipality of
2 Sanski Most I never visited privately and not during the war, so this is
3 an order based on the conclusions of the municipal staff of Sanski Most.
4 But, like I said, I never saw this order before, and I never went to the
5 Sanski Most municipality myself.
6 Q. The question was whether the municipal civilian protection staff
7 was supposed to be dealing with this problem. This is what I asked you.
8 A. If these were civilians, then, yes, absolutely, yes.
9 Q. Very well. I'm going move immediately to the next document.
10 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D03, please, 4458.
11 Q. You can see here that the care for individuals in the centre in
12 Trnopolje is being dealt along with the participation of the
13 International Red Cross and they're asking for support in food and -- and
14 other supplies.
15 So is this one of the entities that should have been dealing with
16 this question?
17 A. Yes. Because, in a way, that's part of the description of the
18 duties of the Red Cross, because what is being requested here is food,
19 flour, meat, and so on, fuel and so on and so forth. So I think that it
20 is proper for the organisation of the Red Cross to be dealing with
21 matters that have to do with civilians.
22 Q. Thank you. We have now rounded off - at least I think - of all
23 the key state organs and factors from the Presidency, the government, the
24 army, down to the local organs, which were dealing with the issues of
25 detention facilities, the movement of civilians, and providing assistance
1 and care for the population.
2 Finally, I am going to show you three documents by the minister
3 of the interior.
4 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at Exhibit 1D55,
6 Q. Mr. Markovic, at the time this order was adopted, you were still
7 a member of the commission so I'm not sure if you actually saw this
8 document or not. But, please, can you now read the contents of the
9 documents? If you're able to; the letters are very small.
10 A. Yes, yes, I can.
11 Q. Well, just go ahead, read it and then I'm going to put some
12 questions to you.
13 Have you managed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You spoke yesterday about the delineation of responsibilities and
16 the authority of the Ministry of the Interior when we're talking about
17 these detention facilities, and you restricted that to facilities that
18 were within the public security stations, which is where the police had
19 the right to detain persons up to three days.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Did you say that, and now that you see this -- did you say that
22 based on your general knowledge of police affairs and regulations, or did
23 you say that on the basis of the knowledge of this particular document?
24 Can you remember?
25 A. This order was quite specifically formulated and it states that
1 the security of collection centres shall be the direct responsibility of
2 the Serbian army and members of the reserve police can be engaged on
3 these tasks. I know that the minister, in a document of his, issued
4 orders for all reserve police force members to be demobilised from the
5 police and to be made available for the disposition of the Army of
6 Republika Srpska. I read this document.
7 Q. Can you read item 2 of this document to the very end and I think
8 that you will find what you have just said.
9 A. Should I read it aloud?
10 Q. No, just read it to yourself.
11 A. Yes, that is exactly what it says, what I was referring to
13 Q. My question at the beginning was whether -- do you -- are you
14 aware of the regulations on -- of the Law of Internal Affairs, allowing
15 the police to deal with matters like this only in their own public
16 security stations, and are they able to then keep these persons detained
17 for a maximum of three days? Is that what the regulations state?
18 Just briefly.
19 A. According to the Law on Interior Affairs, it specifically says
20 that a person can be detained in a public security facility up to three
21 days, so one, two, and up to a maximum of three days. And this is in
22 police stations which have the adequate facilities for such detention.
23 Q. Very well. And this order is dealing precisely with those
24 facilities, what they should look like and so on and so forth.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the next
1 document? This is 1D56.
2 Q. I'm sorry, your answer was not recorded completely, so ...
3 You can see here Mr. Stanisic's order about the applications of
4 the provisions of international laws of war and adherence to the
5 conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war and so on and so forth.
6 Yesterday, responding to a question from the Prosecutor, you said
7 that policemen, when they're engaged on military assignments, are under
8 the command of the army, and they act pursuant to orders from the army.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember saying that yesterday?
11 A. Yes, I remember that very well.
12 As soon as members of the police are transferred to military
13 units, they are immediately subordinated to the military officers and
14 bound by their orders. They are considered to be soldiers.
15 Q. And do you recall that I showed you an order from the
16 commander-in-chief, President Karadzic, ordering that all these
17 international convention regulations be applied?
18 A. Yes, I remember that.
19 Q. So, Mr. Stanisic, with this order, orders, in a general way, to
20 the members of the police that if they should find themselves in a
21 situation, even if they are not under the jurisdiction of the MUP but are
22 in the status of soldiers, they should comport themselves pursuant to the
23 regulations as they are stated here.
24 So that applied to you in the same way, regardless of the fact
25 that you were under the jurisdiction of the government and were a member
1 of a government commission. I think you said that -- this was said in a
2 meeting in a conversation. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, I remember that very well. But here in the last
4 paragraph it is stated that persons who violate the regulations and act
5 contrary to our legal and international regulations in this field and so
6 on and so forth, regardless of whether they were members of the MUP or
7 the army, it is necessary to immediately start gathering information and
8 documentation and submit criminal reports to the authorised prosecutor's
9 office. Regardless of whether these were soldiers or policemen, if they
10 commit a criminal act, criminal reports have to be submitted to the
11 authorised prosecutor's office.
12 Q. Very well. We have one more document.
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D57.
14 Q. We can see here that the Ministry of Interior, and it says in the
15 second sentence, regardless of its jurisdiction, should act pursuant to
16 the request of the Ministry of Health, Work, and Social Security and
17 assisted in the collection of certain data about these facilities that we
18 spoke about yesterday and today. And it says that this was done at the
19 request of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
20 So the ministry did deal with this problem to the extent that it
21 was able to assist other authorised organs that were authorised to deal
22 with this problem. Isn't that right?
23 A. Yes, precisely. Because this refers to data that was gathered by
24 the Ministry of Health, and the minister instructed the centres and the
25 stations of public security to collect the names of the places, who
1 formed or set up those camps, the institutions, and so on and so forth.
2 Q. I'm going show you one more document.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is P731.
4 Q. We can see that this is a report or action pursuant to a dispatch
5 by the public security station of Rogatica, where the chief of that
6 station reports on the situation in his area, and then, in this second
7 larger paragraph, speaks about the military engagement of members of the
8 public security station and the problems that it encountered. And then
9 at the end of that paragraph, it is said that after a struggle with the
10 military organs, they managed to keep 50 per cent of their force in order
11 to be able to perform their regular duties.
12 Do you see that at the end of that paragraph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What I am interested in is the problem -- one problem that was
15 encountered and that the chief was forced to resolve in an ad hoc manner,
16 again, regardless of jurisdiction, and this is in the last paragraph but
17 one, if you are able to read it. After the army and certain civilian
18 organs left a group of civilian population out of the zone of combat, he
19 literally says:
20 "Although pursuant to the Law on Internal Affairs they were not
21 under our jurisdiction, we guarded those persons and transferred them to
22 the territory controlled by the authorities of the Republic of Bosnia and
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And can we now move to page 2.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague is
2 drawing my attention to the fact that the break is -- it's time for a
3 break, so perhaps it would be good for the witness to have time to
4 acquaint himself with this document before I can put some questions to
5 him on it.
6 JUDGE HALL: The -- when you say "have time to acquaint himself
7 with the document," you're inviting him to read it during the break or
8 what? I -- I don't follow you.
9 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
10 MR. HANNIS: I have no objection if a hard copy is provided to
11 him to look at during the break.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, well, that can be done.
13 And we take the break now.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, you may continue.
19 MR. CVIJETIC:
20 Q. [Interpretation] We will be brief, Mr. Markovic. I assume that
21 you've seen the report and read through it. I will only -- yes, we have
22 the second page.
23 Now here we see that the chief of the station is describing why
24 he has done as he has, as described in the document. And what I would
25 like to ask you is this: In the first part, he says that he was not
1 bound by law to take any action. Do you agree with me?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He informed about this incident. Now, let's see, if he received
4 this dispatch on the 25th of July, he informed thereof the centre of the
5 security stations in August. Now what I would like to know is whether he
6 informed your commission and whether you knew about this transfer of
8 Answer with just yes or no.
9 A. No, I don't know about this. But the army brought them in, and
10 neither the army authorities nor the civilian authorities wanted to take
11 any responsibility for them so they just transferred their
12 responsibility, as it were, to the police which then had to do something,
13 and they simply let them go. This was a -- an attempt to remove the
14 population, the civilian population, from areas where there was fighting.
15 Muslim civilians.
16 Q. Yes. That's what it says here.
17 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And I have no further questions
18 for this witness.
19 Q. Mr. Markovic, thank you, I have no further questions for you.
20 A. You're welcome.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Markovic.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I am Defence counsel Igor Pantelic, and I'm the Defence counsel
25 for Mr. Zupljanin. Unfortunately, we didn't have occasion to meet these
1 past days. My colleague spoke with you, but I will continue with the
2 questioning in line with what we've heard before for the Trial Chamber's
4 A. Very well.
5 Q. My first question is this. Based on information that I have from
6 client and certain exhibits that the Defence has, Mr. Zupljanin never
7 participated in any kind of discussions to do with exchanges of prisoners
8 or populations and so on.
9 A. That's correct, he never did.
10 Q. In your statement to the Prosecution on 26th of February, 2008, I
11 found, as I read through it, a very tragic and moving incident described
12 therein. And for the Trial Chamber to get a better picture, could you
13 please tell us briefly what this was about. I am referring to the
14 incident where Croatian soldiers from the HVO were supposed to be
15 exchanged for Serbian prisoners of war and the Croatian prisoners of war
16 were detained in the military camp Manjaca.
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Would you please describe to the Trial Chamber what you witnessed
19 during the exchange and please describe how you felt about it.
20 A. Well, I will begin with my arrival in Banja Luka.
21 When I arrived Banja Luka, on orders from the prime minister, I
22 first went to my own base, as it were. That's the CSB in Banja Luka,
23 where I met Mr. Zupljanin for the first time. We met very briefly, a
24 couple of minutes. I went to see him so that he could tell me and my
25 colleague who was with me, Mr. Slobodan Avlijas, where the Banja Luka
1 court was, and we were looking to meet with the president of the court,
2 Mr. Jovo Rosic, who is unfortunately -- who has unfortunately passed
3 away. Mr. Zupljanin called Mr. Rosic and he said that we had come to
4 arrange this exchange.
5 I met with Mr. Rosic and Mr. Branko Dokic, who was the dean of
6 the electrical engineering school in Banja Luka at the time, and they
7 were representatives in the commission of the Autonomous Region of
8 Krajina. That's what it was called at the time. I had lists with me of
9 Croatian prisoners that were being sought by the Croatian side because I
10 received them by fax from a certain Mario Plejic, who lived in
11 Dusseldorf, somewhere in Germany anyway, and we exchanged fax messages
12 and lists in that manner.
13 I confirmed that I had found all these men and that all the men
14 that they were asking, that were on the list, will be -- would be
15 exchanged. Mr. Rosic Avlijas, myself, and Dokic went to Manjaca where we
16 took over, took with us a certain number of prisoners of war of Croatian
17 ethnicity who had been captured during combat. From there, we boarded
18 buses, two or three buses, I can't recall exactly, and went to Knin.
19 When we arrived in Knin it was already dark so we spent the night there,
20 and the Croatians who were on the buses were guarded by the Army of the
21 Knin Krajina.
22 The next day we left in a convoy of buses for a place called
23 Zitnic, which was in the territory of the Republic of Croatia. There, we
24 met members of the Croatian commission, Mr. Ivan Bender, Valentin Coric,
25 and two other men that I didn't know. In these negotiations, a member of
1 the international mission also was present. I think his name was
2 Martin --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from Portugal. After some
5 discussion and negotiation they asked to board the buses and check
6 whether the men that they had sought were on the buses. We, on our part,
7 had brought every single man that they had requested. And then, from
8 there on, we continued to another place called Pakovo Selo, near Sibenik,
9 where we were supposed to check our list of our people that we had sought
10 and that had been agreed with Mr. Plejic. That's what we thought.
11 When we arrived there, we were surprised, first, when the people
12 started boarding the buses, there were very few men. There were women
13 mostly and even young women with their children, babies. Perhaps
14 5 per cent of the people that were on the list actually showed up. We
15 didn't know what to do and then Mr. Jovo Rosic, as the president of the
16 court and the most senior member of the commission among us, went back to
17 Zitnic and made a telephone call, probably to the prime minister,
18 Mr. Djeric, and when he returned he said there will be no exchange.
19 Of course, the Croats began protesting, because, you know, for
20 our people -- for our people it wasn't really simple. They were almost
21 free and now they were supposed to go back to hell. I'm sure they didn't
22 enjoy it there.
23 Now, these -- this was a very difficult situation. There were
24 people crying, the women and children, even some of the Croatian
25 prisoners were crying. After this, on order from the prime minister, we
1 took them back to Manjaca and left them where we had taken them from
3 Q. Very well. Mr. Markovic, let me take you to that year, 1992.
4 There's an impression here, and this is what the Prosecution is
5 trying to build up, that the entire situation and atmosphere was quiet,
6 peaceful, and that everything should follow in an orderly fashion, and
7 every regulation and provision of the law should be applied by.
8 Now, let me ask you this: When -- during the process of
9 establishment of Republika Srpska, there were a lot of organisational and
10 other problems and all authorities, all government organs, local and
11 government -- and at the government level, had a lot of difficulties in
12 organising this in a timely fashion because events just followed one
13 after another at great speed. Correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. Other than the documents that we received
15 on how we were to proceed in our work, we also received a document from
16 the mission, international mission, which basically followed the same
17 rules. But have you to understand that in these circumstances, in the
18 chaos of war it was practically impossible to implement all -- and comply
19 with all of these regulations.
20 Q. In answering my colleague Cvijetic's questions, you discussed
21 that and I would now like to set up a framework, a legal framework within
22 which we have to work.
23 Now, do you know that in -- on the 12th of May, 1992, the
24 Assembly of Republika Srpska declared a state of war. Did you know that?
25 A. Yes. At the time, I was already a member of the commission and I
1 was in Pale.
2 Q. As an experienced police officer, you know that in circumstances
3 of an immediate threat of war, the army has -- and the police have
4 certain rules to abide by and they have to be resubordinated to the army.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. You've commented a document that Mr. Cvijetic showed you. That's
7 P189. And I would now like quickly to go through it and discuss certain
8 matters therein.
9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] So could we please pull it up,
10 P189. Here we have it.
11 Q. First of all, Mr. Markovic, we see in the preamble to these
12 instructions that it was adopted -- that they were adopted, pursuant to
13 an order from the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina of 13 June 1992, and these instructions are being issued by
15 the Ministry of Defence; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In item 1, the Ministry of Defence, for all practical purposes,
18 issues an order to members of the MUP as well to comply with certain
19 rules and regulations in keeping with the -- what we've earlier said
20 about the resubordination of the MUP to the army; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If we look at the paragraph 4 now of these instructions, it says
23 there that the reception centres for captured persons shall be determined
24 by a senior officer with a rank of company commander or higher; is that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We will not go through all the items, the other items or other
3 articles talk about conditions that should exist in all these centres and
4 reception centres, detention centres and so on.
5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Now let us move to page 3 of the
6 Serbian or B/C/S version. The last three digits are 451, the last three
7 digits of the ERN number. That's right.
8 We see number 18, please. Can we please have number 18 on the
9 screen in the B/C/S version.
10 Q. In item 18 it is stated that for organisation and location of the
11 camps, it is the commanders of the corps of the VRS of the Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina -- it's the responsibility of the corps commanders.
13 So all this was within the systematic regulations that define the
14 role of the army in such conditions.
15 A. Yes, that's correct. And if you remember, there was an order
16 we've seen yesterday issued by General Ratko Mladic about establishment
17 of camps where it is stated that the VRS should have exclusive control of
18 such camps, that each of the corps has a task to that effect.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Markovic, let us look into the circumstances prevailing
20 in the Autonomous Region of Krajina in 1992. So if you have any
21 information about that, I would like to hear your opinion.
22 As far as we know, the entire territory of the Autonomous Region
23 of Krajina was, practically speaking, a front line that was even
24 encircled by the enemy forces until the corridor was made. They were
25 encircled by the enemy forces. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let us analyse the situation in the area of Prijedor, so-called
3 Potkozarje region, if you have, of course, any information about that.
4 In strong conflicts in that area, the VRS was very active in the period
5 of April until July of 1992.
6 A. Mr. Pantelic --
7 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, I have to object there. The evidence in
8 this case is that the VRS wasn't created until the middle of May 1992, so
9 the question needs to be reformulated.
10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Since my colleague
11 Mr. Hannis insists on being perfectly precise, and this is an objective
13 Q. The fighting in the area of Prijedor was between very strong
14 Muslim units and the forces of the Serbian Territorial Defence until
15 May 12th, when the VRS was established, and, as of 12th of May, the
16 fighting was between the VRS and its subordinated units and very strong
17 Muslim forces in the area. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Together with the Croatian forces.
19 Q. These were hard battles with many victims on the Serbian side as
20 well, with a lot of blood spilled.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In course of such fighting, unfortunately, as a consequence of
23 military operations, the civilian population of all three ethnicities was
24 in danger.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And then the relevant command of the VRS ordered, in accordance
2 with international law, that civilian population should be protected, and
3 that's why Trnopolje reception centre was established, where civilians
4 could find some kind of shelter; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic.
7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: You were referring to Prijedor municipality and
9 then the so-called region but the name of the region is not in the
10 transcript, and I would like to know what region you were talking about
11 where these heavy fighting were going on.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: You mentioned it but it isn't on the transcript.
14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I will clarify that.
15 Q. [Interpretation] For the purpose of transcript let us repeat.
16 The fighting took place in the area of Prijedor and the region of
17 Potkozarje. This region means, in translation, "surrounding
18 Mount Kozara." Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 MR. PANTELIC: You're welcome, Your Honour.
22 Q. [Interpretation] So, according to the information that we have,
23 Trnopolje was an open-type reception centre, where civilian population
24 could freely enter or leave at any point; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. However, the problem regarding Trnopolje got worse with time,
2 mainly because of the food supply problems and other supply problems, and
3 then the Red Cross from Prijedor also reacted to the situation. Am I
5 A. Yes. We've seen a document to that effect.
6 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D9 --
7 apologies, 1D03-4458.
8 Q. This is the document my learned colleague Cvijetic asked you
9 about. As we see here, the situation on the 12th of September, 1992, was
10 very serious, a shortage of food, fuel for heating, and the municipal
11 Red Cross of Prijedor reacts by sending reports to the Municipal Assembly
12 of Prijedor.
13 A. To the Executive Committee, yes.
14 Q. Generally speaking, although you were not in the area at the
15 time, but you did have information that all such centres faced similar
16 problems because of the war conditions and because it was very hard to
17 organise everything required in relation to feeding the people and so on.
18 Is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 MR. PANTELIC: If there is no objections -- I don't know if that
21 document was admitted. If there is no objection from my learned friend
22 Mr. Hannis, I would like to -- to tender it, although it was uploaded by
23 our friends from Stanisic Defence.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
25 MR. HANNIS: I do object to it, Your Honour. This witness can't
1 speak to it. He wasn't at Trnopolje. He doesn't know who wrote this
2 document. He doesn't know anything about it.
3 I object to its admission through this witness.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we could MFI.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, marked for identification.
6 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 2D93 marked -- this will be Exhibit 2D93,
8 marked for identification, Your Honours.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
10 JUDGE HALL: That's marked for identification pending a suitable
11 witness being able to tender it.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. I was just trying to speed up this
13 process, but, okay, no problem at all. Thank you so much, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Next document I would like to --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Pantelic, please, I suppose your actual line
18 of question goes to the challenge of one or more of 39 adjudicated facts.
19 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Can -- may I remember you that you should
21 announce which facts you are challenging that way. If you could, that
22 would be very helpful. Thank you.
23 MR. PANTELIC: Could you bear with me one second, please,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: If you are not able to do it right now, you can
1 do it perhaps after the next break or something like that.
2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
4 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record. Thank you. Thank you so
5 much for your understanding.
6 Q. [Interpretation] So the next document I would like to show to you
7 and to discuss with you is the document that you already talked about.
8 It's 560 from the Prosecutor's 65 ter list.
9 We can see here that the author of the document was the warden of
10 the Trnopolje centre, Mr. Pero Curguz. And on the 8th of October, 1992,
11 he reports again to the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor and its Executive
12 Committee about problems in relation to bread, flour and so on.
13 In the end, at the end of the first paragraph, he is saying that
14 there is many people coming in, that there's about 3.500 of them already
15 there. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So the problem with Trnopolje is still active at the time. He is
18 then saying that although the centre is officially closed, people keep
19 coming, because people are feeling insecure and feel threatened because
20 of the conflicts of war, and that's the reason why people do go there.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. [No interpretation]
23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
24 for MFI, please, if it is appropriate. Thank you. Because it is related
25 to previous one.
1 JUDGE HALL: Marked for identification, again pending admission
2 through a -- a witness to whom there's a closer nexus.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit 2D94, marked for
4 identification, Your Honours.
5 MR. PANTELIC:
6 Q. [Interpretation] If we could only have your answer in the
7 transcript as well.
8 So, my question was: The combat activities in the area was what
9 prompted the influx of people to Trnopolje and the Red Cross is trying to
10 do its best to make arrangements for the people.
11 A. Of course, the safety of the people was the main thing. They
12 were safe in Trnopolje. There's -- as you can see, there is mention of
13 50 per cent of children between 1 and 12 years. They were safe in the
14 centre. They did have food and the rest -- well, to some extent at
15 least, they had it, thanks to the Red Cross.
16 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at P194.
17 While we're waiting for this document, let me just say it's a
18 report by the commission of the Republika Srpska government consisting of
19 Mr. Vojin Lale, who was Assistant Minister for Justice, and Mr. Erkic,
20 who was an inspector in the MUP. This commission visited the object
21 between the 10th and the 15th of August -- or, rather, facilities in
22 Krajina region; namely, Trnopolje, Omarska, Keraterm, Krings in
23 Sanski Most, and two other centres in Bosanski Samac.
24 Let us deal with Trnopolje and the situation there.
25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the following
1 page of this document put up on the screen. Or, rather, the third page.
2 So one more page, please. The last three ERN numbers are 062. Yes,
3 thank you.
4 Q. In the third paragraph, it is stated that this settlement of
5 Trnopolje is under the protection of the VRS and that one can see in
6 Serbian and English a sign saying "open reception centre".
7 Can you see that?
8 A. Yes, yes, I can see that.
9 Q. Furthermore, the commission writes, that certain problems persist
10 in relation to provision of food but that the local Red Cross
11 organisation and a Muslim organisation called Merhamet are doing all they
12 can to improve the conditions.
13 And then, on the following page of this report, the commission --
14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have the next page.
15 Q. The commission states or writes about the conditions in the POW
16 detention centre called Omarska. They discuss the conditions found
17 there, and then explains what conditions were like in Keraterm,
18 Sanski Most and Bosanski Samac.
19 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Now can we please move to page 5
20 of the document. The last three ERN numbers are 066.
21 So, conclusions or concluding remarks.
22 Q. Mr. Markovic, it is a known fact that on the basis of the
23 reaction by the Assembly of Republika Srpska in July, but also in
24 August of 1992, such centres were subjected to intensive control and also
25 that because of international outcry in relation to these centres. Is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In item 1, the commission criticises the government of
4 Republika Srpska and says that the government did not pay appropriate
5 attention to the problems relating to these facilities; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then in the following items, the commission speaks about
8 inadequate conditions, as well as noting that the government should have,
9 through the Ministry of Defence, have taken appropriate measures; is that
10 correct? This is in paragraph marked 3. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then, on the next page in the B/C/S - that is, paragraph 5 -
13 attention is drawn to the lack of suitable regulations regarding the
14 treatment of civilian refugees which is particularly evident in the case
15 of Trnopolje; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So we could draw a conclusion on the basis of all this, on the
18 basis of the circumstances and facts here, that there was quite a lot of
19 disorganisation and lack of direction and lack of correct interpretation
20 of the regulations and standards that had led to a number of abuses even,
21 in this area, by a number of individuals; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. However, the government and the defence ministry are those in
24 charge of taking measures and taking the lead on this and not the police;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes, absolutely.
2 Q. Because the police, within the constitutional system, is actually
3 an organ of state administration; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And we can see on this page, especially in paragraph marked 5 --
6 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up the B/C/S
7 version, please.
8 Q. That certain measures are being proposed by the commission to the
9 government as to what the government should do on this matter. But what
10 is important to me at this time is that when we look at item 5 that
11 speaks about Trnopolje and possible manipulation of the public media and
12 public opinion, I have a specific question. We know that representatives
13 of foreign media did tour those places and we know that members of the
14 foreign media exaggerated and presented the circumstances there
16 I think you started to explain this but were interrupted by the
17 Prosecutor. Do you have any information about Trnopolje or anything in
18 terms of media manipulation and public manipulation regards conditions in
19 Trnopolje? You wanted to say something but were interrupted by the
21 A. Well, perhaps one of the key things is that scene when that tall,
22 thin, young man, with his bones practically protruding, is standing
23 behind barbed wire fence. And when the journalist shows only that
24 sequence, when you can only see him and the barbed wire fence, but
25 actually there were shovels and other tools, working tools, standing
1 behind that fence, and she used that opportunity to make that photograph
2 and that photograph was broadcast all over the world. And everything was
3 presented in a very negative way. People were presented as criminals, as
4 inhumane, even though that is very far from the truth, far from the truth
5 of what the photograph is showing. And broader than that.
6 Q. Throughout the war years, you had witnessed a high degree of
7 manipulation by the foreign media, in terms of the events and objective
8 reporting from the field; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. I would just like to say that after the war, as inspector
10 in the police administration of the Ministry of the Interior of
11 Republika Srpska, I went to Prijedor to inspect the work of that public
12 security station -- actually Prijedor was a public security centre at the
13 time, and I did go to Trnopolje. Of course, the war was over, and that's
14 when people explained to me what kind of a camp it was. My colleagues
15 who were there explained to me. We toured Trnopolje. They explained
16 what was being done in that camp, that that photograph that was shown had
17 no relation to the truth, that actually only 2 metres away from there was
18 a barbed wire fence behind which a -- a wire fence behind which tools
19 were stored, but it was really contrived to make it seem as if it was
20 some -- Auschwitz practically.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, 45, 4, page 45, line 4, I believe the
22 witness says that the -- the wire length was 2 metres only. That was my
24 Maybe this can be checked with the witness.
25 MR. PANTELIC:
1 Q. A small correction to the transcript. Can you please confirm
2 what my colleague has just said.
3 A. Yes, yes, it was two, two and a half metres, an enclosure where
4 tools were kept, and this was set apart to prevent them perhaps from
5 fighting or injuring each other in a fight. I mean, this is what my
6 colleagues told me.
7 Q. And now about the functioning of the police and about information
8 from this topic. It's important that we cover that topic, and we would
9 need to look at a certain number of documents in order to do that.
10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Please, can we look at document,
11 Exhibit 1D57. This is a Stanisic Defence document.
12 Q. Of course, I'm not going to ask you to confirm if you have seen
13 those documents or not, but I'm just using them as a certain illustration
14 of the methods of work of the Ministry of the Interior. So I have a few
15 questions on that topic.
16 Here in this exhibit we can see a dispatch sent on the
17 24th of August, 1992, from the Ministry of the Interior to all
18 Security Service Centres and public security stations, where MUP, on the
19 basis of the request of the ministry, is requesting certain information
20 regarding the camps, the dates when they were set up, who ordered these
21 persons to be brought in, and a deadline is given until the
22 30th of August, 1992, for the MUP to inform about this.
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. Of course, you, as an experienced policeman, police professional,
25 will confirm that when the Ministry of the Interior orders something like
1 this and because of its urgency, we can see that the dispatch was sent
2 both to the centres and to the public security stations individually too;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes. And this was upon the request of the Ministry of Health,
5 Work, and Social Security.
6 Q. Yes, precisely. Precisely. And now let's look at the next
7 document related to this dispatch.
8 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] And that is 65 ter document 536.
9 It's Prosecution Exhibit P972, in fact, if I'm not mistaken.
10 Q. We can see the first page of that document where the chief of the
11 CSB, Simo Drljaca, in reference to the dispatch of the 24th of August,
12 replies to it. And then on page 2 of this document, and that's ERN
13 number 311, that those are the last three numbers, we can see on the
14 second page this initial dispatch from the ministry. Now we can go to
15 the third page of this same document, because it comprises a number of
17 And we can see here that the Banja Luka CSB, on the 27th of
18 August, conveyed this message from the MUP, upon the request of the
19 health ministry, and requested that action be taken pursuant to it.
20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] But can I see my learned friend
21 Mr. Hannis on his feet.
22 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, if we're looking apparently at 65 ter
23 536, Mr. Pantelic made a reference to a P exhibit number. This is not a
24 P exhibit. As far as I can tell, this is still just a 65 ter.
25 JUDGE HALL: The Registry has confirmed that --
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL: -- that it is not.
3 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. It is my mistake. The next one
4 is P. So I do apologise to all parties.
5 Q. [Interpretation] What we are seeing now is that this is being
6 distributed, this dispatch, further, an action is being taken on the
7 basis of it. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, if we can mark this document for
10 identification or maybe if there is no particular objection from --
11 because this is a police matter and communication. If there is no
12 objection from our friends from the Prosecution.
13 MR. HANNIS: I don't have an objection to this one being marked
14 as an exhibit. We believe it is authentic.
15 JUDGE HALL: Tendered, admitted, and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D95, Your Honours.
17 MR. PANTELIC:
18 Q. [Interpretation] In the context of narrow police topics, I'm
19 asking you this. There is an system of informing and reporting in the
20 police where, using daily dispatches, weekly dispatches, monthly
21 dispatches, the -- higher ranking organs in the MUP are being informed
22 about the SJ -- by the SJB about work for the past period.
23 A. Yes, about work for the prior period.
24 Q. The main point is that these lowest organisational units, the
25 public security stations, must, at the daily level, have a report about
1 events, including any abuses, professional abuses. For example, if a
2 policeman exceeds his authorities or commits certain violations. Is that
4 A. Yes, that is correct. That is why police stations have a
5 log-book of daily events where each event that is reported by citizens,
6 in person or over the phone, is logged in.
7 Q. And, of course, the responsibility of the public security station
8 chief has -- is to suspend or take measures in the event violations are
9 committed, such as, for example, a policeman beating up a civilian or
10 things like that.
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. And then the chief of that municipal police unit, in his regular
13 reports, pursuant to regulations and rules of the Law on Internal
14 Affairs, has to report to his superiors, and that would be the next
15 level, the CSB; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Of course, the CSB would not be forwarding all types of daily
18 information directly to the chief but they would be sent to his assistant
19 about daily activities if they are in the area of police duties; is that
21 A. Yes. They would be sent to the lower-ranking officers and then
22 this would be sent down to the lower-ranking officers who would then go
23 about implementing these duties.
24 Q. Of course, for example, if a policeman in the municipal MUP were
25 to commit a disciplinary violation or a criminal act, that would, of
1 course, be part of the daily report that would be sent to the authorised
2 CSB assistant in charge of police information.
3 A. It would go, actually, to the Ministry of the Interior too. And
4 if it was a more serious violation, then disciplinary proceedings would
5 be initiated. In the event of committing a crime, he would be suspended
6 and a criminal report would be submitted against that particular person.
7 Q. All right. Sir, unfortunately, the times were extremely
8 difficult, chaotic. The wartime period, 1992, was a very difficult year.
9 And, unfortunately, the police found themselves with the problem between
10 demands from the army and the local political structures, such as
11 Crisis Staff, and each one of them pulled the police in their own
12 direction. They misused their authorities and duties and were placing
13 the police in a difficult position, making them very scattered and
14 pulling -- pulled in all directions. Is that correct?
15 A. That is correct. We saw a document yesterday where
16 Minister Stanisic requested - and I believe this was at a government
17 session - that the reserve force of the police be attached to the
18 Army of Republika Srpska and that they no longer function as police
19 officers but, rather, be subordinated to the Army of Republika Srpska.
20 In other words, that they -- that the only -- that the professional
21 police remain just as strictly police force and carry out their duties.
22 Q. In order to illustrate this, although we have a wealth of
23 evidence here, and that is what the Defence is trying to do, present all
24 that evidence, we want to show the delicate position in which the police
25 find itself because the civilian authorities are pulling it to one side
1 and the army to the other.
2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] So to illustrate that, I would
3 like now to call a document, 1D166. It is a Stanisic exhibit.
4 It is hard to make it out, but if we can just zoom in on the
5 first paragraph of this order.
6 Q. You see, Mr. Markovic, first of all, that the date on the
7 document is May 31st, 1992, and that this is a document -- or, rather, an
8 order from the Prijedor SJB. And in the introductory paragraph it says
9 that in keeping with the order of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor, it is
10 being ordered that the temporary collection point for individuals, for
11 persons who were in combat, that this point should be -- the reception
12 point should be in the Omarska mine.
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. This is, indeed, a very stark example of how civilian
16 authorities, such as the Crisis Staff here, and some military structures,
17 as we saw earlier, initiate for their own needs these matters, such as
18 detention centres. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And, of course, we've shown a number of decisions taken in
21 Prijedor -- a number of judgements in the cases related to Prijedor,
22 where we saw exactly what the roles of Simo Drljaca and others were. But
23 if have you some knowledge, could you confirm here for the Trial
24 Chamber's benefit whether Prijedor and its Crisis Staff, headed by this
25 same person, Simo Drljaca, was in fact a state within a state, if I may
1 define it as such.
2 A. Well, I really cannot say anything about that. I don't know.
3 Q. Very well.
4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Now, let us move on to
5 paragraph 11 of this order. That's on the second page of this document.
6 Paragraph 11. Could we please enlarge it, zoom in on it --
7 Q. So that can you read it more easily.
8 Now you see what it says there, what Chief Drljaca says there.
9 He says that all the coordinators of those security services are
10 duty-bound to report on a daily basis, every day, at 1200 hours, to him,
11 the chief, their reports on their work for the past -- for the previous
12 24 hours, and in the event of any extraordinary circumstances or
13 developments that they should report immediately. Correct?
14 A. Yes, that's right. That's what it says there.
15 Q. From this I can conclude --
16 A. Just a moment, please. That is correct. I can confirm that, but
17 the principle and the standard procedure in all public security stations
18 before, during, and after the war was to compile daily reports every day
19 and inform the chief of the centre and other superiors on the work of the
20 station for the previous 24 hours.
21 Q. Very well. So the point is this: Drljaca must have been
22 informed on these developments because they would have to have been
23 reported by some of his subordinates?
24 A. Certainly. And they would have had to have been -- they would
25 have had to be registered.
1 Q. Certainly.
2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] My question did not -- was not
3 recorded in the transcript. Let me repeat it.
4 Q. My last question was this. I said that he, as the chief in
5 Prijedor, was duty-bound to report any violations committed by his
6 subordinates to the CSB and that would have been part of the daily
7 report. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. As a lower-level station, security station, they were
9 duty-bound to report to their superior station, which in this case was
10 the CSB.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, just for the record, I have here
12 fact, adjudicated fact 858, just for the record, 866, and 884. Because
13 certain lines of question were related -- it's a living matter, it cannot
14 be covered everything, but certain lines are related to the issues in
15 Trnopolje and Prijedor.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Markovic, I have no further questions for
17 you. This is the end of my cross-examination.
18 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, if it's appropriate time for a
19 break. We have a couple of minutes left, and then my friend Mr. Hannis
20 can take the boat after the break.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's perhaps the appropriate moment to come back
23 to the question of -- raised by Ms. Korner sometime ago about challenge
24 of adjudicated facts by the Defence.
25 The Trial Chamber reminds the parties that the Defence has been
1 asked to announce very clearly the challenge of an adjudicated fact the
2 moment they challenge it by asking questions of a witness or in whatever
3 other way the challenge is made.
4 The Trial Chamber is of the view that there is no basis in the
5 rules nor in the jurisprudence that allows the Trial Chamber to impose
6 the obligation to announce in advance the adjudicated facts taken
7 judicial notice of that the Defence challenges.
8 In other words, there is no basis that permits to impose an
9 exhaustive list to be produced before the end of the Prosecutor's case
10 that would prevent the -- the later challenge of any adjudicated fact not
11 on that list. However, and even so, it would certainly assist the
12 Trial Chamber and the expeditiousness of the procedure if both Defence
13 teams could indicate at this stage of the trial the adjudicated facts
14 that, to their actual knowledge, are going to be challenged for sure.
15 This would materially advance the work to be done without putting any
16 restriction on the Defence.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Judge.
19 So we now take the break and resume in 20 minutes.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.27 p.m.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I asked to address something before
24 the witness was brought in concerning the adjudicated facts that
25 Mr. Pantelic said he was challenging. I wanted to confirm that those
1 were numbers 858, 866, and 884?
2 And -- and my review of your decision on adjudicated facts shows
3 that 858 refers to Prijedor SUP -- detainees being transferred from
4 Prijedor SUP to Omarska camp by policemen; 866 refers to what happened to
5 some of the detainees in Omarska camp; and 884 details with the presence
6 of interrogators from Banja Luka CSB and Banja Luka Corps in Omarska.
7 I frankly didn't hear anything from this witness that really
8 touches on that in Omarska. But now that I have confirmed those are the
9 facts, I have maybe one question to ask the witness and I'm ready to
10 resume with him. Thank you.
11 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record, in fact, line of questions
12 was in relation to the role of the members of the army who, during which
13 operation, ordered to civilian population to go to certain centres,
14 what -- on which basis was that, et cetera.
15 So I agree with Mr. Hannis that it was not specifically related
16 to the wordings, but in, I would say, an overall context of Prijedor.
17 That was the -- the line that I was following.
18 Yes, thank you.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:
21 Q. Mr. Markovic, now it's my turn once again.
22 I wanted to ask you a question concerning some of your evidence
23 relating to the problems with communications.
24 You said, I think more than once yesterday, that when you were in
25 Pale that there were problems with telephone lines and fax lines and not
1 having communications.
2 And can you confirm for me where you were, where your office was
3 or were you were housed in Pale? I understood it was in Kalovita Brda in
4 what I have sometimes referred to as the scouts' house. You will have to
5 answer out loud.
6 A. No. The name of the settlement was Kalovita Brda, and the
7 facility where I was was called Buducnost. That's a facility that before
8 the war was used for scouts, for students of elementary schools, for
9 nature tour classes.
10 Q. Thank you. In connection with Buducnost - pardon my
11 pronunciation - I would like to show you Exhibit P543.
12 MR. HANNIS: This was not one that was in my original tab of
13 documents to use with the witness but it arises related to the issue of
15 Q. You will see on the screen in a moment, Mr. Markovic, what
16 appears to be an order from Mr. Stanisic to the CSB centres about sending
17 in daily reports. And what I'd like to you look at is the upper
18 left-hand corner on the original in B/C/S, what I would call the fax
19 header line, and would you agree with me that that says "Buducnost in
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the date of this document is the 18th of April -- on the fax
23 header line is 18 April 1992.
24 MR. HANNIS: If we can zoom out so the witness can see that.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. So it appears that somebody in Buducnost had access to a fax as
3 early as 18 April 1992. Did you know about that?
4 A. Sir, I said that yesterday that on the 17th of April I actually
5 resigned from the Bosnia and Herzegovina MUP, and I arrived in Pale on
6 the 9th of May, 1992.
7 The communications between Pale and the federal part of Sarajevo,
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, probably were in service, in operation, for some
9 10 to 15 days after I arrived, and after that, no more communications
10 lines were available, and this document actually is from the time while I
11 was still in Sarajevo.
12 Q. Fair enough, I understand. Did you know Dragan Kezunovic, who
13 was chief of the communications and cryptographic data protection
14 administration in the RS MUP in 1992?
15 A. I do know Mr. Dragan Kezunovic. He was also the chief of
16 communications in the joint MUP before the war, and when the Serbian MUP
17 was established, it was normal for him to be appointed to that same
18 position, to be the chief of communications, because he was
19 well-acquainted with the work of that department.
20 Q. And would you agree that he would be better informed than you
21 about the status of communications in the RS MUP in 1992 because it was
22 part of his job?
23 A. Well, I believe so.
24 Police officers had Motorola radio sets, they could use that for
25 communication, and that was the only way they could actually communicate
1 amongst themselves. And --
2 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
3 A. And I'd like to stress here that these Motorolas were charged by
4 way of batteries because there was no -- or -- generators because there
5 was no electricity. There was a power shortage in Pale.
6 Q. I now want to go to some questions that Mr. Cvijetic asked you
8 At page 12689, line 19, he said he was interested in your status
9 and asked who you reported to, in terms of your work when you were on the
10 Exchange Commission.
11 During that time in 1992, when you were a MUP representative to
12 the Exchange Commission, you've told us that you were paid by the MUP.
13 Did you wear a uniform or civilian clothes?
14 A. No, I wore civilian clothes, because my job was a government job
15 and there are no uniforms there. And, of course, my salary was paid out
16 through the Ministry of the Interior.
17 Q. And did you retain all your service time during that period, that
18 counted towards your retirement or your pension benefits in MUP? Did
19 that time when you were working on the Exchange Commission count towards
20 your MUP retirement?
21 A. Yes, exactly so. Because I got my salary from them, I was still
22 considered to be a member of the MUP, but I was just for a while seconded
23 to the government as a representative of the group.
24 Q. In terms of reporting to the prime minister, Mr. Djeric, can you
25 tell us approximately when and how and how often you did that, in 1992?
1 Was that on a daily basis; was it oral or in writing?
2 A. It was not on a daily basis. It was in writing, especially where
3 large-scale exchanges were carried out, and I also sent my requests for
4 the necessary resources that we needed for our work, for the problems
5 that the commission was facing and so on. And when we met at the
6 government building in Kikinda, as you said, then I would describe to
7 him, in an informal sort of exchange, about what was going on and what
8 things would -- how things evolved. That's it. Thank you.
9 Q. When -- when Mr. Djeric's government fell in late 1992 and he was
10 replaced, who did you report to after that?
11 A. I don't recall that I submitted my reports to anyone at that
12 time, because some two or three months after that, I left the commission,
13 when Mr. Djeric left.
14 Q. At page 12694 yesterday, Mr. Cvijetic was showing you
15 Exhibit P192.
16 MR. HANNIS: And if we could have a look at that, please.
17 Q. This is, I believe, the document from Mr. Kovac. And you recall
18 in the second paragraph -- I'm sorry, the third paragraph. He is talking
19 about the problem in the field about people not being categorised.
20 Do you recall that?
21 A. Yes. Mr. Cvijetic put some questions about that, and we
22 described the individuals who were detained, and then other categories of
23 persons, detained persons.
24 Q. Okay. And would you agree with me that this is an indication
25 that that was still a problem as of August 1992 in the RS?
1 A. Well, as the war became fiercer and fiercer, the problems
3 Q. [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, I'm looking for a
4 page number, Mr. Markovic.
5 MR. HANNIS: Could we have a look at Exhibit P1318.22.
6 Q. This is a document that Mr. Cvijetic showed you yesterday, dated
7 in 1994, 28th of October, from Captain Bulajic, and it's talking about
8 accommodation of Muslim citizens in Butmir since the start of the
10 I see on the original B/C/S version, or the Serbian version, in
11 the upper right-hand corner, it has Republic of Srpska Government Central
12 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners. And that's in English while
13 all the rest of the document is in Serbian. Can you tell me why that was
14 in English? Was this for communications to be made with the
15 international community.
16 A. Sir, this document is dated 28th of October, 1994, and on the
17 1st of April, 1993, I left the commission, and the president of the
18 commission, Captain Dragan Bulajic is addressing Mr. Ljubisa Vladusic,
19 who was the chief of the refugee secretariat -- secretariat for refugees,
20 so this document was sent after I had already left the commission. And
21 why the letterhead is in English as well, I don't -- I can't explain it.
22 Q. And in the body of the document where he says this facility was
23 used for the purpose of accommodating Muslim civilians passing through in
24 transit to the Muslim part of Sarajevo and it talks about the process of
25 "family reunification" or "freedom of movement."
1 Do you know why those two terms are put in quotes?
2 JUDGE HALL: Having regard to the answer to the previous question
3 I'm at loss, Mr. Hannis, as to why you are persisting with questioning
4 him on this document.
5 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, he answered questions about this
6 document on cross-examination, and I'm just trying to find out what the
7 source of his knowledge is to be able to give those answers.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said before that we
9 worked on family reunification and freedom of movement for the people so
10 that people could go where they wished to go. And in this document, it
11 says that they were going toward the Muslim part of Sarajevo. And as for
12 your question, why these terms are under -- within quotes, I really can't
13 explain that.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Thank you. Let me show you another document, P189. This was
16 shown to you by Mr. Cvijetic. At page 12 -- I'm sorry. 12 ... 12707,
17 you see this -- this is the instructions from the defence minister,
18 Subotic, concerning the treatment of captured persons.
19 And given that this is from the defence minister, would I be
20 correct in understanding "captured persons" means "prisoners of war."
21 That would be enemy combatants or enemy soldiers who had laid down their
22 weapons and had been wounded and were captured?
23 A. Well, they don't just have to be soldiers captured during combat.
24 There was also -- arrests were also made in houses where weapons were
25 found from which snipers would open fire. So there were such instances
1 of arrests as well.
2 Q. And was the army authorised to make those kind of arrests, or was
3 that a matter for the police?
4 A. No, it's not the police, sir. The police could not be on the
5 front lines, so they could not arrest these persons. The army arrested
7 Q. But I thought you told us -- I thought you had told us today that
8 the police were subordinated to the army. And didn't -- did they not
9 take part in combat operations?
10 A. When the police - and I'm talking about the reserve force
11 exclusively - once they are resubordinated to the military, they are
12 considered soldiers and not police officers, and they are subordinated to
13 the military command.
14 Q. Were you aware of an order by Mico Stanisic, dated the
15 15th of May, 1992, concerning the creation of war units in the MUP?
16 Did you know about that? I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.
17 A. I was expecting, waiting to see the text of that. I really
18 didn't know about that. At the time I worked for the commission, and I
19 did not receive dispatches from the Ministry of the Interior.
20 Q. Thank you. Let me show you Exhibit 1D46.
21 As I said, this is a document dated the 15th of May, 1992.
22 From --
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
25 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] -- if I may, the witness has
1 already said that he did not have occasion to receive this document and
2 he explained why. And also, during my cross-examination, I did not touch
3 upon this order, nor did I cross-examine about the problems dealt with in
4 this order, so I think there is no foundation for the Prosecutor to now
5 ask questions about this.
6 MR. HANNIS: My foundation for asking about this subject relates
7 to Mr. Pantelic's question at page 33, line 18, today. He asked him: As
8 an experienced police officer, you knew that in the circumstances of war
9 that the police are subordinated to the army. And I think I'm entitled
10 to inquire into the basis of his knowledge about that.
11 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
13 Q. You see -- you see this document in item number 1, Mr. Stanisic
14 is directing the creation of --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- certain war units. If we could go to item number 6 on this
17 page, you'll see he says authorising the chiefs of CSB and the commander
18 of the police detachment of the ministry to appoint the appropriate
19 officers with the appropriate qualifications to ensure the principle of
20 subordination and superiority in the command system.
21 MR. HANNIS: And if we could go to the next page in both English
22 and B/C/S, at the top of the page, item number 7 says:
23 "The use of the ministry units in coordinated action with the
24 armed forces ... may be ordered by the minister ... commander of the
25 police detachment ... and chiefs of the CSB ..."
1 And the last paragraph under number 7 says:
2 "While participating in combat operations, the units of the
3 ministry shall be subordinated to the command of the armed forces;
4 however, the ministry units shall be under the direct command of certain
5 ministry officials."
6 Now, wasn't it true that during a state of imminent threat of
7 war, the police could be subordinated to the army for purposes of combat
8 operations but it did not mean that they were subordinated to the army
9 for every purpose, for all times during such a state?
10 A. Of course, it doesn't mean that they would be subordinated to the
11 army forever. It would depend on the operations. In large-scale
12 operations, the reserve complement of them ministry would be engaged in
13 the Army of the Republika Srpska.
14 As for what is stated here, that it is under the command of
15 certain ministry officials, that relates to the transfer of the military
16 command, for instance, from the company command -- that relates to the
17 transfer or forwarding of orders by the officials within the ministry to
18 their subordinates because -- for instance, to a company commander, and
19 if you can -- you can also see that it says here that officials, workers
20 of the ministry will carry out the duties, the same duties that they
21 carry out in peacetime; in other words, they carry out their regular
22 police duties.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could I please suggest that the
24 witness also read this paragraph 8, if he can be given the opportunity to
25 just read through it, at least the first subparagraph.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, exactly what I said earlier,
2 in carrying out regular duties and tasks, the provisions of the Law on
3 Internal Affairs and other regulations of the Serbian Republic of BH
4 shall be strictly upheld; whereas, in military operations, military
5 regulations and rules shall be enforced. And I feel -- I believe this is
6 quite clear.
7 MR. HANNIS:
8 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about one further item in
9 connection with the Exchange Commission and Mr. Vanovac.
10 MR. HANNIS: If we could look at P1318.26.
11 Q. Which was shown to you earlier this morning.
12 At page 3, line 18, Mr. Cvijetic was asking you about this
13 document. And he asks if you would agree with him that the agreement was
14 actually related to one particular exchange ad hoc. And in your answer
15 you -- you noted that although you'd never seen this document before, it
16 is true that it pertains to one particular exchange and it is probably an
17 exchange somewhere around Ilidza.
18 A. That's exactly what I said. And I also said that where it says
19 the president of the Commission for Exchange is Nenad Vanovac, the stamp
20 that is affixed there is not the commission stamp, but, rather, the
21 Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party, because the stamp of the
22 commission was with me in Pale.
23 Q. Yes. I wanted to ask you about that. This document says based
24 on an agreement concluded on the 5th of July, and then it talks about
25 some events that will happen on the 11th, and the 13th, and the
1 15th of July. So it appears to be this is a document that was signed and
2 stamped sometime between the 5th and the 10th of July. Would you agree
3 with me?
4 A. Well, that's what it seems.
5 Q. And we saw yesterday that Mr. Vanovac was appointed by
6 Mico Stanisic to be president of the Exchange Commission, I think on the
7 4th of July. Do you recall that?
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment, just a moment,
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not Mico Stanisic but,
11 rather, Momcilo Mandic.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. I'm sorry if I said -- you're correct.
14 A. The minister of justice, Momcilo Mandic.
15 Q. You're absolutely correct. If I said otherwise, I misspoke.
16 Do you recall that, that it was about the 4th of July? Or do you
17 need to see the document again?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. HANNIS: If we could show the witness P1318.25.
21 Q. Does that refresh your recollection?
22 A. Yes, very much.
23 Q. And do you recall yesterday Mr. Cvijetic showed you a document
24 indicating when he had actually been appointed by the government, and
25 that was in one of the government sessions, sometime after the
1 4th of July.
2 A. I don't think that he was appointed by the government but the
3 Ministry of Justice with the signature of Momcilo Mandic. But he didn't
4 sign it himself. Somebody signed it on his behalf. And the last
5 sentence states:
6 "The decision by the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina will be forwarded subsequently."
8 And in the heading it is stated the Ministry of Justice, and he
9 was appointed by the ministry as one of its members.
10 Q. Okay. And you told us, when talking to Mr. Cvijetic, that after
11 the first time you met him, there was some 20 days or so later that he
12 came back and got the commission stamp from you; correct?
13 A. Tried to, but I wouldn't give it to him.
14 Q. Um ...
15 A. Because the seat of the Central Commission was at Pale, not in
16 Ilidza. And the president couldn't be in Ilidza and the commission at
17 Pale, so the stamp stayed with me. I didn't let him take it.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. HANNIS: Let's look first at Exhibit P200.
20 And could we look at item number 7 and number 8.
21 I'm sorry, we have to go over a couple of pages.
22 Q. You see number 7 is the proposal for appointing a president of
23 the Central Commission?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. HANNIS: And if we could go to item number 7 within the text.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: It's page 6 in the --
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Mr. -- thank you, Mr. Zecevic.
3 Q. You'll see the proposal of the Ministry of Justice to appoint
4 Nenad Vanovac to the post of president "has been adopted."
5 Do you recall now having seen that yesterday?
6 A. Of course, I do. And earlier I said that he wasn't appointed by
7 the government but by the Ministry of Justice. I don't know whether the
8 government issued a decision. But he was appointed by the Ministry of
9 Justice instead of Rajko Colovic.
10 Q. At what was page 76 yesterday, line 12, you said that some
11 20 days or a month later after the first time you met him, he showed you
12 a document apparently about his appointment. And you said he took the
13 Central Commission stamp from you and returned to Ilidza.
14 Today you're telling us he did not take the stamp.
15 A. No, no. I'm sorry. Then the interpretation was incorrect.
16 He tried to take it, not that he took it. He tried to take it,
17 and the stamp stayed with me until I left in March, late March, 1993.
18 No. It was probably a mistake in the translation.
19 Q. Okay. Well, then one of the reasons that he couldn't have used
20 the commission stamp on this agreement that he signed as president of the
21 commission is because he couldn't get the stamp from you, right?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. But then if that's your reason for saying that this was only a
24 local particular exchange is because it has the Ilidza stamp, that
25 doesn't make sense, because he couldn't have the commission stamp even
1 though he was president of the commission.
2 So why do you say that this agreement was not a general agreement
3 proposed for the entire territory?
4 Again, I'll show you Exhibit P1318.26 just so you can be clear
5 what I'm asking about.
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. This is agreement on mutual release of prisoners along the line
8 of all for all. And item number 1 says:
9 "Both commissions accept that all prisoners on both sides will be
10 immediately released along the line all for all and latest by 15
11 July ..."
12 On its face that seems to be an agreement about all prisoners on
13 both sides, signed by the respective commissioners of the state
14 commissions for the RS and for the other side.
15 A. It's true that they signed, but this was impossible to do in
16 those conditions, because probably Mr. Vanovac didn't have the
17 experience. He was active, he worked and was carrying out exchanges in
18 the Ilidza, Hrasnica, Vojkovici areas, neighbouring places that were
19 around Ilidza. And at the time, this was a little bit difficult to
20 implement, especially with Vukovic.
21 Q. Let me ask you, at line 24, on page 6 today, you were asked about
22 the all-for-all exchange principle. And you've said that this functioned
23 sometime at the very beginning of the war. However, afterwards it wasn't
24 applied, and you gave the example of a high-ranking --
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. You gave an example of a high-ranking Serb officer would be
2 exchanged for 15 to 20 Muslim fighters.
3 My question is: Isn't it true, though, unequal exchanges, like
4 one Serb officer for 15 to 20 Muslim fighters, unequal exchanges happened
5 both ways, on both sides?
6 A. I mentioned that only as an example, Mr. Prosecutor. But it did
7 happen, absolutely, on both sides.
8 Q. Thank you. We saw yesterday that -- that that document related
9 to Mr. Stanisic's request for the release of Anes Bucan, in exchange for
10 three Serb families and the bodies of four --
11 A. Butmir. Butmir.
12 Q. No, no, no. The individual named Anes Bucan, Mr. Stanisic had
13 requested be released in exchange for three Serb families and four -- the
14 bodies of four Serb soldiers. Do you remember that?
15 A. Very well.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. And I said that it was illogical for a minister to write, "I
18 kindly request." He is asking somebody who is ten levels beneath him to
19 make the release.
20 Q. Yes. You told us about that yesterday, that you thought he was
21 begging and pleading, the way that was written.
22 My next question --
23 A. No, he was kindly requesting even though he was a minister. He
24 was kindly making a request from some prison warden.
25 Q. Really, really, Mr. Markovic, do I need to show you the
1 transcript from yesterday, where you said he was begging and pleading?
2 You don't remember saying that?
3 JUDGE HALL: Let's move on.
4 MR. HANNIS: Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Begging. I didn't use that word,
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours will see the transcript for yourselves.
8 I'll move on.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis. I don't -- I was listening
10 to yesterday's testimony and I never heard witness saying that either.
11 So it is better that we clarify this with the witness while he is here.
12 I'm sorry.
13 MR. HANNIS: Well, he said what he said and what's in the
14 transcript is in the transcript. If I'm incorrect, I'm incorrect. But I
15 don't think it serves us for me to go show him the page.
16 JUDGE HALL: In any event, this is a side issue, let's move on.
17 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Yes, I'm trying.
18 Q. At page 10, line 23 today, Mr. Cvijetic was asking you about this
19 agreement and the failure to sign it and implement it, that many ugly
20 things that later happened in the area of prisoner exchanges and prisoner
21 camp would have been prevented, and you agreed. But isn't it correct
22 that by mid-July, a lot of ugly things in the area of prisoner exchanges
23 and prisoner camps had already happened in April, May and June of 1992?
24 A. What do you mean "ugly -- ugly things"? War is ugly by its very
1 Q. Well, it wasn't my term. It was the one that Mr. Cvijetic used
2 and you agreed with. So I assumed you knew what he was talking about.
3 A. All right. There were bodies, corpses of our soldiers that we
4 exchanged which had been massacred without eyes, ears, without hands,
5 with serious stab wounds with sharp objects and so on.
6 MR. HANNIS: For the record, the reference to "begging" was at
7 transcript page 12675, line 7, from yesterday's testimony.
8 Q. Two other areas, Mr. Markovic, and then I will be done.
9 You were shown -- pardon me. You were shown Exhibit P -- I'm
10 sorry, I've lost the number. I'll find it in just a second.
11 Regarding Trnopolje, you were asked several questions by
12 Mr. Pantelic today. You never visited Trnopolje in 1992, did you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How about -- how about Omarska?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Keraterm?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Manjaca?
19 A. Yes, I took the Croatian prisoners from there for exchange in
21 Q. That's right. And that was in October?
22 A. Yes. On the 25th, 26th, or the 28th of October. I -- I don't
23 know. We mentioned the place already, Zitnic.
24 Q. Okay. And your information about Trnopolje is what you heard
25 when you talked to some of your colleagues who had been there, and that
1 conversation was some years after 1992; is that right?
2 A. Yes. After the war, when, as an inspector, as the police -- of
3 the police administration I came to inspect the work of the public
4 security station in Prijedor, and I went with a colleague to see it, and
5 they told me the story about that footage and the photograph.
6 Q. Okay. You never spoke to any non-Serb who had been in Trnopolje
7 in 1992, did you?
8 A. No, no, I didn't. I didn't know any of them.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Markovic.
10 MR. HANNIS: I don't have any other questions, Your Honours.
11 Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Markovic, we thank you for your assistance to
14 the Tribunal. You are now released as a witness and we wish you a safe
15 journey back to your home.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And thank you.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the purposes of transcript, Your Honours,
18 and the concerning my intervention just earlier on the -- on -- on what
19 the witness said.
20 Actually, we already filed a verification request, I don't know
21 if you remember, I raised the issue of -- of incorrect recording of the
22 witness's testimony yesterday. On pages 12674, line 15, until 12675,
23 line 3. And we already filed that request for verification. And that is
24 exactly where this -- the word "begging" was recorded. Plus some other
25 things as well.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 MR. HANNIS: Well, no. "Begging" was at 12675, line 7, four
3 lines further on.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: Then we will extend our verification request.
5 Thank you very much.
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, I have to report we have no other
7 witness until the witness who is scheduled for videolink on Thursday.
8 Again, I think the estimate for cross-examination was a total of six and
9 a half hours, which, with the Prosecution's estimate of three hours for
10 direct, would have carried us into at least the end of the first session
12 I don't know what else to tell you, other than to request that we
13 adjourn until Thursday morning.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
16 I understand that we are assigned to this courtroom again on
17 Thursday --
18 Mr. O'Sullivan.
19 MR. O'SULLIVAN: One last thing before we rise, Your Honour. We,
20 at the break, had a very long and protracted discussion with Ms. Korner
21 and she was quite insistent, and, as usual we have given in to her
22 request. And, in short, she has put me up to this, to wish Mr. Hannis a
23 happy birthday today. And it is quite clear, and we have to agree, that
24 no one would believe that he is 39 years old today.
25 Thank you.
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, if I may, I have to respond. I suspected
2 that Ms. Korner might do something like this, and, as I recall, there was
3 something about her recently. I would only indicate that, for the
4 record, although I am slightly older than Ms. Korner, I am much younger
5 than the great and glorious country of Canada. Thank you.
6 JUDGE HALL: And we join in the congratulations.
7 So we take the adjournment to resume in this courtroom on
8 Thursday morning at 9.00.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of July,
11 2010, at 9.00 a.m.