Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13172

 1                           Monday, 16 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.  Thank you,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.  And welcome back, after a break,

11     which and I'm sure we will -- we have all returned with a determination

12     to get on with it.  If any of you happened to be at the opening of the

13     ILA conference this morning, you would have heard one of the speakers did

14     not let the opportunity pass to talk about how much time these criminal

15     Tribunals take so that I'm sure that we -- would make a determined effort

16     in short that in terms of this trial in this Tribunal, that we will be

17     the exception to this universal criticism which tends to be immediate.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry to intervene and but my colleague tells

19     me that this is an -- there was no interpretation in Serbian, in B/C/S.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             Is it okay now?  Yes.

22             Okay.  So could we have the appearances, please.  And for those

23     you that just missed what I just said, I just said that I'm sure that we

24     are going to speed up the work now that we are in the final stage of this

25     trial, to be an example to other Tribunals.

Page 13173

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis along

 2     with Gerard Dobbyn and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic, Slobodan Cvijetic,

 4     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing for Stanisic Defence

 5     this afternoon.  Thank you.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

 7     Igor Pantelic for Zupljanin Defence.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             Before we begin, there are three matters which the Chamber would

10     wish to bring to the attention of the parties.  The first is a reminder

11     to the Prosecution that the witness which who is scheduled for this

12     afternoon, witness number 63, is a Rule -- sorry, 92 ter witness for whom

13     we have already ruled there would be -- that the time for

14     examination-in-chief would be limited to 30 minutes.  And we do -- we are

15     not -- we haven't forgotten the indication that the counsel respectively

16     for each of the accused indicated that they are likely to take in terms

17     of their cross-examination.

18             The second matter is the proposal for some of the 44 new

19     witnesses to address the denied adjudicated facts and we would

20     respectfully urge the Prosecution to let us have on an urgent basis the

21     highlighted statements and less important, and that's, of course, the

22     Defence, because the highlighted portions of the statements so much

23     depends on -- on where we go with those witnesses.

24             The third thing is that the Trial Chamber -- the -- does require

25     that the estimates for all of these witnesses, including those who may be

Page 13174

 1     admitted pursuant to 92 bis that we would need that to be provided to us.

 2             And unless council have any matters themselves to raise, could

 3     the usher -- yes, Mr. Hannis.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, I do.  And if it is

 5     convenient for the Court now I can do it now or later, whichever you

 6     prefer.

 7             Two matters, Your Honour, one related just for scheduling for

 8     this week.  The first witness is Witness ST-063, is here, ready to start.

 9     I think Mr. Dobbyn has an application to make concerning that witness and

10     I will leave that to him.

11             Tomorrow's witness is ST-134.  On Wednesday we had ST-163

12     scheduled, but last week a problem arose.  We learned that he testified

13     in the state court in Bosnia in two matters, including one involving a

14     witness we had here, ST-187.  We have been attempting to get the

15     transcripts of his testimony from those two cases.  We just received one

16     on Friday.  The other, I think, has been requested, but we don't know if

17     one had even been prepared.  It is my understanding that they aren't

18     always prepared for those trials and without having that transport in

19     hand we didn't think it was convenient for the witness or the parties to

20     proceed with him because his testimony related to directly to this case

21     and to a witness who has previously testified in this case.

22             So Wednesday we don't currently have a witness scheduled.  The

23     witness for Thursday is ST-147.  We can't move him up because is he

24     travelling by car rather than aeroplane and won't be here until Wednesday

25     evening and won't be able to start testifying until Thursday.  I think

Page 13175

 1     Ms. Pidwell had sent an e-mail to the Legal Officer asking about the

 2     possibility of swapping Friday and Wednesday because Friday is a day that

 3     you're not sitting.  But I think as of this late date that is not

 4     probably not a feasibility possibility.  So we propose to proceed in that

 5     fashion.  We think we can get ST-147 done on Thursday.  If that is the

 6     only day we sit with him.  I think the Prosecution has 20 minutes in

 7     direct.  He's a 92 ter witness, and the Defence has estimated three and a

 8     half hours.  So we should be able just possibly to squeeze him in.

 9             The second matter I wanted --

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could I just in relation to the proposal you just

11     made, would you be able to bring another witness for Friday then?

12             MR. HANNIS:  No, Your Honour, but what we thought would happen is

13     that in the event that we carry over into Wednesday with the first two

14     witnesses, then we wouldn't -- we wouldn't have any problem hopefully

15     completing all three this week.

16             Our concern is if we didn't finish with the second witness

17     tomorrow, ST-134, that might spill over into Thursday and that would

18     force ST-147 to spill over into the following week or some later day.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  If he didn't finish tomorrow's witness you

20     said it would spill over into Thursday, why not Wednesday?

21             MR. HANNIS:  [Microphone not activated] we're hear witness, no

22     problem [Microphone not activated].

23             The 44 new witnesses regarding adjudicated facts, I think the --

24     the Court had requested we keep you updated on our process in making

25     disclosure pertinent to those two witnesses.  We will tell that you the

Page 13176

 1     first batch of disclosure went out on the 10th August involving ten of

 2     those witnesses concerning our review of the updated ISU searches that we

 3     conduct.  The second batch will go out either today or tomorrow and that

 4     covers a further eight witnesses.  So that's 18 by tomorrow.  And we hope

 5     to have another batch out on Friday.  And we've heard what you have said

 6     this morning, or just at the beginning of this session, about getting the

 7     highlighted statements and transcripts to you as soon as possible.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may be heard on the same subject,

10     Your Honours.

11             We filed a motion on the 4th of August requesting that we -- that

12     we are provided with the -- with the 92 bis packages for these witnesses,

13     because, Your Honours, you gave us the deadline of the 20th of August.

14     But we, as of today, we still haven't received that.

15             So if we don't receive it in any -- any time very soon, we

16     wouldn't be able to -- to give our response by the 20th of August.

17             So that is -- that is why we filed the motion as early as 4th of

18     August.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

21             JUDGE HALL:  The -- the -- you haven't forgotten that the

22     deadline was extended to the 3rd of September?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I obviously forgot that, Your Honours.  I'm sorry.

24     We were -- the whole team was -- had the understanding that the -- that

25     the deadline was the 20th of August.  I'm really sorry.  Thank you very

Page 13177

 1     much.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  And lastly, Your Honours, concerning Wednesday.  If

 3     we are not sitting with the witness on Wednesday, we propose to meet with

 4     the Defence counsel to discuss a couple of matters, including possible

 5     agreements about something regarding these 44 adjudicated facts witnesses

 6     and 92 bis statements for some of them and also matters concerning the

 7     exhumation evidence.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your Honours, I just want to make sure that there

 9     is no misunderstanding anymore about the Court's order to give estimates

10     for the witnesses you proposed to be 92 bis, to give estimates, time

11     estimates for them to be heard eventually as viva voce witnesses.

12     Because we -- as you probably remember, we -- we already ordered that

13     twice, once written and once in your presence orally.  You said they

14     would -- they would be provided -- it would be provided for very soon.

15     And then we got a motion from your office telling us the opposite.  So we

16     are emphasising that we would like to have them.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I think it sounds like we

18     had an internal miscommunication.  I understand you now.  You wanted us

19     to estimate how much time we would need for those witnesses proposed as

20     92 bis in the event that you decide that they need to come and testify

21     live and we need to present their evidence, their direct evidence live.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  That's quite how it is.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  With this clear understanding that these

25     witnesses are only there to testify about the specific denied adjudicated

Page 13178

 1     facts.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  I understand that, Your Honour.  I anticipate though

 3     that if some of those do come that we have listed to testify to a

 4     particular adjudicated fact, we would feel an obligation to expand a

 5     little farther than answering one question.  For example, who were the

 6     perpetrators at this incident on the 19th July, 1992, the police.  We

 7     think you would need to hear a little more from this witness as to who

 8     they were and how they happened to know it was the police, et cetera.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, I trusts that we are not at cross

10     purposes.  It may very well be that you and the Bench are saying the same

11     thing.  But bearing in mind that the purpose for which these witnesses --

12     each of those witnesses being called is to deal with specific facts which

13     would have been identified by the Prosecution in its several motions for

14     the -- for the acceptance of these matters as adjudicated facts, that,

15     whereas, if I understand you correctly, that narrowly speaking, there

16     are, of course, would have to be a context to the evidence but the basic

17     and -- we cannot overemphasise the fact that these witnesses are being

18     called for the limited purpose of speaking viva voce to the particular

19     issues which would have been identified by the Prosecution and notified

20     to the other side and the Chamber as being important to their case by

21     virtue of the original motions for the -- for the reception of these

22     matters as adjudicated facts.

23             As I said, I trust we are not at cross purposes in that regard

24     but that is the basal position of the Chamber in terms of that regard,

25     and that is a point to which we would firmly hold and any attempt to

Page 13179

 1     wander outside of -- of those limitations will be firmly shut down.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  I think we are not at cross purposes.  I

 3     think I understand what you are saying.  You said the word "context," and

 4     I guess that's the word I should have used.  I think we're on the same

 5     page.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, can you give us an indication about

 8     when we could have these estimates.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  I could probably give you an indication by the end

10     of the day.  I guess I personally need to go back and look at how many we

11     propose in 92 bis and try and come up with a rough estimate for you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, could the usher have the witness make the

15     solemn declaration, please.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  NUSRET SIVAC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  I trust that can you

21     hear me.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, very well.

23             JUDGE HALL:  The solemn declaration that you would have made

24     binds you to speak truthfully to this Tribunal, which has the power to

25     deal with misleading or untruthful testimony by way of its powers to

Page 13180

 1     punish persons for perjury.

 2             Would you begin by telling us your name, your date of birth, your

 3     profession and your ethnicity, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nusret Sivac.  I was

 5     born on the 19th of August, 1947.  And I'm currently unemployed.  In

 6     fact, I'm retired.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] what was your profession

 8     before you were retired?  You may have said it, but I didn't have the

 9     translation because I was set on the wrong channel.  I'm sorry.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the 1st of January, 1990, I

11     was an employee of the public security service in Prijedor.  And as of

12     January 1st, 1990, through May 1992, I was a reporter for the

13     Sarajevo Television, and I covered certain municipalities in the western

14     portion of the Bosnian Krajina.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And you would have testified previously

16     before this Tribunal, have you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I would remind you of the procedure with which

19     you would be familiar from your previous testimony.  The side calling you

20     would begin by asking you questions and then the other side, counsel for

21     each of the two accused would have a right to cross-examine you, and

22     which the Prosecution could re-examine and, at that stage or indeed at

23     any earlier stage in your testimony, the Bench my intervene if they have

24     questions of you.

25             The procedure under which you are being called is such that the

Page 13181

 1     Prosecution would be completed with their examination-in-chief in

 2     30 minutes, and the Defence together have indicated such a period of time

 3     for your cross-examination that it is fully expected that your testimony

 4     would be completed before the Chamber rises for the day at 7.00 this

 5     evening.

 6             The -- there are the Tribunal sits for periods of not more than

 7     an hour and a half for certain technical reasons dealing with the

 8     changing of the tapes by which these proceedings are recorded.  But if at

 9     any time before the usual point for a break arises, you need of any

10     reason to have a break in your testimony if you would indicate that to

11     the Chamber and, of course, we would accommodate you.  And with that, I

12     would invite Mr. Hannis to begin his examination-in-chief.

13             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, Mr. Dobbyn will be leading this

15     witness.  Thank you.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  And before I start

17     and I am keeping in mind the comments at the start of court today, I am

18     actually going to be requesting an additional 30 minutes with this

19     witness for a total of one hour.  And the reason for that is when

20     Mr. Sivac was brought in for proofing on Saturday, he did raise some

21     matters concerning meetings that were attended by the accused

22     Stojan Zupljanin in Prijedor in the relevant time-period and they are

23     uncontained in his 92 ter statement.  And we produced a proofing note

24     which was disclosed to the Defence.  That's one reason we're asking

25     additional time.  Also, Your Honours, back on I believe the 13th of July,

Page 13182

 1     counsel for the accused Zupljanin had indicated that there was

 2     specifically challenging certain adjudicated facts, three in particular,

 3     and these were adjudicated facts that this witness speaks to, so I would

 4     like to spend a short amount of additional time on that.  Keeping in

 5     mind, I'm asking for a total of an hour at the most.  I hope to finish

 6     before that.  And I think still with the times given for

 7     cross-examination we would be able to finish today.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Dobbyn, we have heard your application for an

11     additional time beyond the 30 minutes indicated, and we will allow you 20

12     minutes.  So it would be a total of 50 minutes.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15                           Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sivac.  As you've heard we have 50 minutes

17     today.  So I just ask that when I do ask you questions that you answer as

18     concisely as possible so that we can cover as many of the areas that I

19     would to as we can.

20             Now, Mr. Sivac, did you testify in the Stakic case on the 29th,

21     30th and 31st of August and the 1st of September, 2002, and also on the

22     13th of January, 2003?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you also testify in the Brdjanin case on the 13th and 14th of

25     January, 2003?

Page 13183

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And in particular on 13th of January, 2003, in the Brdjanin case,

 3     do you recall correcting earlier testimony you'd given in the Stakic case

 4     with regards to a delegations of Bosnian Serb officials who had visited

 5     Omarska camp in July 1992 and you recall saying that you had mistaken

 6     said that Vojo Kupresanin was part of this delegation when, in fact, it

 7     was Stojan Zupljanin.  Do you recall that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Now have you had a chance to listen to the testimony you gave in

10     Stakic and Brdjanin before today?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is the information contained in that testimony, keeping in

13     mind the correction that I have just referred to, would the answers you

14     give today, if you testified in full, be the same as you gave in those

15     two cases?

16        A.   Yes.  My testimony and my statements, I stand by them, and I -- I

17     firmly state that Mr. Zupljanin, in 1992, together with a political

18     delegation of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Bosnian Krajina, led by

19     Mr. Brdjanin, that they visited the camp in Omarska and the Prijedor

20     municipality.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sivac.

22             MR. DOBBYN:  And I believe the procedure is that upon the

23     completion of his testimony I would seek to tender thinks 92 ter package.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes Mr. Dobbyn.

25             MR. DOBBYN:  And, Your Honours, now if could I read a very brief

Page 13184

 1     summary of his 92 ter testimony.

 2             Mr. Sivac is a Bosnian Muslim who until 1990 worked for the

 3     public security service in Prijedor and in 1992 was working as a

 4     television reporter in Prijedor.  His 92 ter testimony provides an

 5     overview of the Serb takeover of Prijedor in April 1992, the persecution

 6     of non-Serbs in Prijedor and the destruction of non-Serb religious

 7     buildings and property.  Mr. Sivac was present in Prijedor on 30th May,

 8     1992, when the ethnic cleansing of Prijedor began.  He saw non-Serbs

 9     being taken from their homes by the Serb forces who separated the men

10     from the women and children before taking them away.  He witnessed the

11     looting and destruction --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please read more slowly for

13     the benefit of interpreters.  Thank you.

14             MR. DOBBYN:  Sorry, I apologise to the interpreters.  I will slow

15     down.

16             He witnessed the looting and destruction of non-Serb homes and

17     religious buildings.  On 10 June 1992, Mr. Sivac was arrested by Serb

18     police.  He was taken to the Prijedor SUP building and transported to

19     Keraterm and then on to Omarska.  En route to Omarska he witnessed the

20     devastation of the Kozarac area with houses burning and personal

21     possessions and dead animals scattered across the road.  He was beaten

22     upon arrival at Omarska but released that same day when told that, in

23     fact, it was his sister who was to have been arrested.  Mr. Sivac was

24     arrested again on 20 June 1992 and returned to Omarska.  In his 92 ter

25     testimony, he described the brutal and inhumane conditions at Omarska

Page 13185

 1     including beatings, killings, insufficient food and lack of sanitary

 2     facilities.  In July 1992, Mr. Sivac witnessed the visit to the

 3     delegation of high-ranking Bosnian Serb officials to Omarska camp.  This

 4     delegation included Radoslav Brdjanin, Simo Miskovic, Simo Drljaca and

 5     Stojan Zupljanin.  Along with the other prisoners, Mr. Sivac was made to

 6     line up before this delegation and was forced to sing Serbian songs.

 7     Mr. Sivac was transferred to Trnopolje camp in August 1992 where he

 8     remained for 14 days.  Upon his release, he returned to Prijedor where he

 9     remained until he was finally able, after signing over all his property,

10     to leave in December 1992.

11        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I'm now going to ask you some questions just to

12     clarify and expand upon these events.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  First of all, if we could show 65 ter 3111.

14        Q.   Mr. Sivac, what you see coming up on the screen in front of you

15     is a map of the municipality of Prijedor.  I'll just wait until it's

16     increased in size.

17             Now, Mr. Sivac, you will see that it features many of the

18     locations that you mention in your testimony, including Prijedor town

19     Hambarine, Kozarac, Keraterm camp, Trnopolje, and Omarska.

20             Mr. Sivac, looking at that map, is that an accurate depiction of

21     the municipality of Prijedor and does it show the correct locations of

22     these places?

23        A.   Yes, it is all correct.

24             MR. DOBBYN:  I would like to tender this map at this time,

25     Your Honours.

Page 13186

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 01 -- P01526.  Your Honour, thank you.

 3             MR. DOBBYN:

 4        Q.   Mr. Sivac, are you -- were you aware of any visits by

 5     Stojan Zupljanin to Prijedor in the weeks leading up to the takeover on

 6     30th of April, and in particular I'm looking at the date around the 10th

 7     of April?

 8        A.   Around the 10th of April, my colleague, a journalist, Mr. Grubic,

 9     who was a Serb, was also a member of the Patriot League in Prijedor.

10     They were for peace.  However, he received information from Banja Luka

11     that Stojan Zupljanin was to visit Prijedor, accompanied by

12     Radoslav Brdjanin.  Their aim was to hold discussions at the municipal

13     building with the -- the authorities about the way the local police would

14     be divided.  I'm trying to speak slowly enough for the interpreters.

15             There was a group of members of the Patriot League which gathered

16     people of all ethnicity, including my colleague, Mr. Grubic as well as

17     Dr. Eso Sadikovic and Nina Cacic, i.e., all those people were of

18     different ethnicities, and they stood in front of the municipal building

19     there Prijedor stating that they would not see the Prijedor police be

20     divided or split up.  I'm saying this because in the municipality of

21     Prijedor, the legally-elected representatives were still in power.  It

22     was Mr. Muhamed Cehajic, who was the municipal president, as well

23     Mr. Stakic, who was his deputy.  The president of the executive board was

24     Mr. Mico Kovacevic.  The chief of the security service in Prijedor was

25     Hasan Talundzic.  When they realised that a group of citizens

Page 13187

 1     spontaneously gathered in front of the municipal building, somebody from

 2     the municipal building decided that the gentlemen from Banja Luka should

 3     not enter the building through the main door.  They actually entered

 4     through the back door, holding a meeting at which they failed to convince

 5     those in power, in Prijedor, to split up the police force.

 6        Q.   Sorry, if I could just ask you at this point, Mr. Sivac, you've

 7     said that Mr. Zupljanin -- that the purpose of the visit was to seek the

 8     division of the police.  On what basis or on what lines was he seeking

 9     the division of the police?

10        A.   Well, at the time the goal was clearly recognisable.  They were

11     there to put up an ultimatum for it to be done in, as they called it, in

12     a peaceful way.  However, only some 20 days later, there was going to be

13     a forcible takeover by the police and army in the municipality of

14     Prijedor.  This had already been planned back then.  However, for

15     pro forma sake, in order to wash their hands of certain events that were

16     to ensue, they attempted to persuade, so to speak, those in power in the

17     municipality of Prijedor to tackle those issues in the municipality by

18     dividing the police among its Muslim and Serb fractions.

19             The next day, dissatisfied with the outcome of the talks, the

20     Banja Luka and Prijedor media carried the following news and they were

21     all controlled by the Serbian Democratic Party that was in power then,

22     and trying to raise tensions among the ethnicities, they stated that --

23     that there had been an assassination planned against Zupljanin and others

24     in Prijedor.  But this was only done in order to raise the bar, so to

25     speak, to have the Serbs readied for what was to ensue some 20 days

Page 13188

 1     later.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sivac.  And, again, just because of the time

 3     constraints, I'd ask you to just try to keep it as concise as possible,

 4     your answers.

 5             Now, after the takeover, the Serb takeover of Prijedor on the

 6     30th of April, are you aware of Mr. Zupljanin attending any meetings in

 7     the days shortly after that?

 8        A.   After the takeover, there was another group of Banja Luka

 9     politicians, including Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, which arrived in the iron

10     ore complex, they set up -- they held a meeting.  This is vis-a-vis the

11     SUP building.  The meeting was with certain employees of the security

12     service.  At that meeting, it was stated that all non-Serb employees,

13     that is to say, Muslims and Croats, if they wanted to remain with the

14     security service, had to sign a loyalty oath to the new Serb authorities.

15             At that meeting, there was a very small number of Muslims and

16     Croats in attendance, because, already, during the takeover, they had

17     been driven away, sent away from their jobs.  However, at that meeting,

18     and the explanation that if the non-Serbs wanted to remain with the Serb

19     security service, had to sign the security oath was just a farce.  I know

20     for sure that several Muslims and Croats, indeed, signed it.  However, it

21     didn't help them any.  They were still taken to the Omarska and Keraterm

22     camps and killed there.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Sivac, in May 1992, did you hear any information about

24     negotiations concerning the situation in Kozarac taking place?

25        A.   There was a large problem facing the new people in power in

Page 13189

 1     Banja Luka and Prijedor, and that was how to deal with the situation in

 2     Kozarac.  Kozarac is a small village adjacent to Prijedor which had

 3     always remained with the security service of Prijedor.  They rejected any

 4     ultimatums coming from Banja Luka rejecting the new power structures

 5     there.  95 per cent of Kozarac -- 95 per cent of the population of

 6     Kozarac were Muslims.  They rejected all ultimatums and they would not

 7     recognise the newly appointed people in Prijedor who found themselves in

 8     the positions after the forcible take over.  Instead, they self-organised

 9     to try and talk the Kozarac police into accepting the new people in

10     Prijedor.  We received information that Stojan Zupljanin attempted again

11     to go to Kozarac, accompanied by some other politicians in order to

12     reduce tensions so that the Kozarac police be persuaded to join the

13     Serbs.

14        Q.   What was -- what was the source of this information, Mr. Sivac?

15        A.   We received that information from our colleagues in Banja Luka.

16     My colleague, Boro Grubic, a Serb journalist who worked with me, got by

17     that information when Osmo Didovic, who was then the Kozarac police

18     station commander, rejected all previous ultimatums.  He said that there

19     were bad things in store for Kozarac and that the situation in Kozarac,

20     as such, was no longer tenable.

21        Q.   Just to be clear, what was the outcome of these negotiations that

22     Stojan Zupljanin took part in?

23        A.   I don't know.  Information reached us that any negotiations about

24     a peaceful handover of Kozarac and accepting the new Serb authorities

25     failed and that they were going back to Banja Luka without anything

Page 13190

 1     having been done.

 2             On the other hand, from the political circles of Prijedor, there

 3     were Milomir Stakic and Simo Drljaca who also took part in those

 4     negotiations with the police and the people of Kozarac.

 5        Q.   How long after these negotiations failed to reach any result did

 6     the cleansing of Kozarac begin?

 7        A.   It lasted for about ten days.  Some ten days later, that is to

 8     say, around the 24th of May, 1992, the ethnic cleansing of Kozarac began.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move on to another topic now.

10             In Stakic, you testified that both of the times you were arrested

11     in June 1992, you were transported from the Prijedor SUP building to

12     Omarska in what you described as a standard police paddy wagon.  I just

13     got a couple of specific questions about that.  What colour was the

14     vehicle?

15             I'm sorry, have you heard the question, Mr. Sivac?  I'll repeat

16     it again.  The question was: What colour was the vehicle you were

17     transported in?

18        A.   I heard the question.

19             It was a typical police van.  It was dark blue in colour.

20        Q.   Did it have any markings on it?

21        A.   I think the markings were still "milicija" on the door.  I can't

22     recall precisely though.  I am quite familiar with such vans.  I have

23     been with the security service for 20 years, and I remember when that

24     particular van was purchased.  Some work-mates of mine mounted radio

25     equipment in it.

Page 13191

 1        Q.   Specifically referring to your first arrest on the 10th of June,

 2     you testified that you were transported by Tomislav Stojakovic and

 3     Rade Balta.  What organ, if any, did they belong to?

 4        A.   They used to be work-mates with mine with whom I had worked for a

 5     number of years.  They were professional policemen from Prijedor.

 6        Q.   The second time you were driven from the SUP building to Omarska

 7     on the 20th of June, do you know the names of the men who took you on

 8     that occasion?

 9        A.   Yes.  The driver was Stevo Grahovac, another professional

10     policeman who used to be a good work-mate of mine.  The co-driver was a

11     reserve policeman.  I don't know his exact name but we used to refer to

12     him as -- Batan.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last piece

14     of information he offered.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a reserve policeman.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  Now, just for the record, Your Honours, that was in

17     response to the challenge of adjudicated fact, 858.

18             Now if we could call up 65 ter 2237.

19        Q.   Mr. Sivac, do you recognise the building on the -- in the picture

20     in front of you?

21        A.   Yes.  This is the security service building in Prijedor.  I had

22     worked there for about 20 years.

23        Q.   And is this the building you were taken to after your two

24     arrests?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 13192

 1        Q.   In Stakic you described how you and some others, including you

 2     and young boy, were forced to run a gauntlet, this is after your arrest

 3     on 20 June during which members of the Prijedor Intervention Platoon beat

 4     you with metal bars.  In this photo, can you see the area where that

 5     happened?

 6        A.   One cannot see it here.  This is the frontal part of the

 7     building, and we were taken through the main door to the back where

 8     there's a yard.  In the yard, in front of detention cells, four of us

 9     were lined up in front of a wall.  Before that they took our shoe laces

10     away as well as our belts, they removed all -- the documents and money we

11     had.  We stood next to the wall with our hands on our -- on the back of

12     our heads, and that is where the members of the Intervention Platoon

13     started beating up.  It was around noon.  All of my former Serbian

14     colleagues who were still with the security service looked on from the

15     windows that were facing the yard.  They were all laughing.

16             Perhaps I should tell this to the Judges.

17             Next to me there was another former employee who was a

18     white-colour inspector.  He was arrested with me with other two

19     colleagues and while the beating took place, and it was quite heavy, it

20     all seemed very funny to our former colleagues.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DOBBYN:  Now, Your Honours, I would seek to tender this

23     photograph.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01527, Your Honours.  Thank you.

Page 13193

 1             MR. DOBBYN:  Next could we show 65 ter 2234.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sivac, can you tell the Court what's depicted in this

 3     photograph?

 4        A.   This is a panoramic view of the iron ore mine in Omarska.

 5        Q.   Now I'd like your help in locating and marking a few specific

 6     places you talk about in your prior testimony.

 7             You testified that when you arrived at Omarska for the second

 8     time on 20th of June, you were lined up against the wall of the

 9     restaurant and beaten by guards.  Now with the usher's assistance, I'd

10     ask you to indicate where that -- that restaurant was.  If you could

11     perhaps mark it with a cross.

12        A.   Apologies.  The second time we arrived in Omarska, the Omarska

13     sentries did not beat us.  Kos Krle was the guard's commander and he

14     said, These had already been beaten enough today.  Do not beat them any

15     further.  We arrived in a van and were lined up next to this wall of the

16     restaurant.  It had glass window-panes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And could put the number 1 next to that cross,

18     please.

19        A.   One.

20        Q.   Mr. Sivac, this restaurant, is this also where you were taken for

21     your meals?

22        A.   Yes.  That is the restaurant.

23        Q.   From your testimony you stated that initially you were held in

24     the garage.  Could you mark where the garage is, please.

25        A.   Yes.  We were taken this way.  The garage is at the front.

Page 13194

 1        Q.   And perhaps if you could put the number 2, just near the front of

 2     the building where the arrow goes.

 3        A.   Yes, here is the number 2.

 4        Q.   You also spent some time in places known as Burho's room and

 5     Mujo's room.  Where were they located?

 6        A.   One cannot see it here.  It is somewhere here on the back side,

 7     and can I mark it with a 3.  It was next to the interrogation rooms.  The

 8     entrance is from that side of the building, next to the garage, and

 9     that's where the two room are.

10        Q.   Speaking of the interrogations rooms, could you mark where they

11     were, please.

12        A.   On this side.  These were the windows, as well as at the other

13     side of the building.  This is where the interrogation rooms were.

14        Q.   And --

15        A.   On the top floor.  This used to be the management building of the

16     mine in Omarska.

17        Q.   And just for the record, I'll say that that's indicated by four

18     crosses on either side of the building which has numbers 2 and 3 by it,

19     now marked with number 4.

20             Now, Mr. Sivac, you also described how at night you could hear

21     the sounds of female prisoners screaming, crying, and calling for help.

22     Where were they held?  Where were these screams coming from?

23        A.   In day-time, the women were in the restaurant.  They were there

24     to assist the personnel in the restaurant, to give food to the inmates.

25             In the evening, after 7.00 p.m. when the night shift came in,

Page 13195

 1     they were taken to sleep in the interrogation rooms.

 2        Q.   Okay, and these are the rooms that you've marked with the crosses

 3     and number 4; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  I think they were divided into two groups in two different

 5     rooms among the total of the interrogation rooms that there were.  This

 6     is where they spent their nights.

 7        Q.   You've also described that the detainees were held in the hangar.

 8     Could you please marked hangar with the number 5?

 9        A.   There is the hangar.  All of it.  Here's the number 5.  The

10     detainees were both in the upper and the lower part.

11        Q.   You've also testified that detainees were held and killed in the

12     white house.  Could you mark that with a number 6, please.

13        A.   This is the notorious white house.  This is a number 6 here.

14        Q.   In your testimony you also referred to the red house.  Could you

15     mark that, please, with a number 7.

16        A.   That is the red house.  The detainees were killed there in a

17     quiet way.

18        Q.   Could you explain what you mean by "killed in a quiet way"?

19        A.   Detainees were killed there with hammers, axes, and other

20     instruments of that nature.

21        Q.   Now, also, you have referred in your testimony to the glass

22     house.  Could you locate this on this picture?

23        A.   It will be difficult.  It's between the management building and

24     the restaurant.  There's a rectangular room there without a roof.  It is

25     just fenced off by glass panes.  This is what it is, and it's somewhere

Page 13196

 1     here.

 2        Q.   And you've marked that with the number 8, I see.

 3             Finally, you described how, upon your rival at Omarska on the

 4     10th of June, you saw a huge number of prisoners lying face down on the

 5     area known as the pista, and you also described having spent time lying

 6     there yourself.

 7             Could you locate the pista on this picture?

 8        A.   This is the pista.  I'm marking it with a 9.  Detainees were

 9     lined up like this on the ground out in the open.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. DOBBYN:  Could I tender this photograph now, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 02234

14     shall be given Exhibit P01528.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. DOBBYN:

16        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I'm going to move on to the issue of the -- the visit

17     of this delegation to Omarska.  And you talked about this in both Stakic

18     and Brdjanin.  And at the start of your testimony today, we covered the

19     fact that Stojan Zupljanin had been part of this delegation along with

20     Vojin Kupresanin.  Now, Mr. Sivac, in 1992, did you know who

21     Mr. Zupljanin was?

22        A.   In 1992, I knew the following:  I knew this man because he

23     appeared on television frequently, and during some police operations

24     orchestrated from the centres for security services this gentleman would

25     voice his opinion and the purpose and results of the operation that had

Page 13197

 1     been carried out.  Although -- although in my first testimony I said that

 2     he and Mr. Kupresanin were a bit alike and I couldn't really tell them

 3     apart too well at the time.

 4        Q.   Now you said that you couldn't tell them apart too well at the

 5     time.  But at that time that the delegation visited -- sorry?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, there is something missing in the

 7     transcription, the name of these two gentlemen, I think.  Mr. Kupresanin,

 8     was mentioned.

 9             MR. DOBBYN:  I see the mention of Mr. Kupresanin at line 21 and

10     carrying on to line 22.  Was there another place besides that?

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  And after that.

12             MR. DOBBYN:

13        Q.   When you said that you couldn't really tell them apart too well,

14     Mr. Sivac, were you referring to Mr. Kupresanin and Mr. Zupljanin?

15        A.   Yes.  During the time when the delegation visited Omarska, at

16     that time, I was sure about who it was.  At that time, I knew that this

17     was in fact Stojan Zupljanin.

18        Q.   It has been some time obviously since that day back in July 1992,

19     but I'd ask you to take your time and look around the courtroom and can

20     you tell us if you see Stojan Zupljanin in the court today?

21        A.   Well, yes, I do.  That's the gentleman sitting on my left side

22     and he has a cap on his head.

23             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, for the record he has indicated the

24     accused Mr. Zupljanin.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Sivac, you described that --

Page 13198

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  What is the purpose of that?  I mean ...

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I think he is --

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the line of

 4     questioning whether this was Zupljanin and whether he could recognise

 5     him, whether he saw this gentleman, whether he could see him here in the

 6     courtroom, I think these -- I don't see the point.

 7             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, the point of it was that unless the

 8     accused counsel are willing to agree that Mr. Zupljanin was present at

 9     the time, this goes to the weight that should be given to the witness's

10     identification at that time of the accused Mr. Zupljanin.

11             JUDGE HALL:  For myself, Mr. Krgovic, I was -- my mild surprise

12     of the question which, on the face of it, was an invitation to dock

13     identification, was relieved by interpreting it, and I believe this is

14     how it was intended as a formal question to link the testimony.  In other

15     words, he is not seeking to establish the -- what other circumstances

16     would be identification for the first time.

17             So nothing turns on it.

18             Yes, Mr. Dobbyn, please proceed.

19             MR. DOBBYN:

20        Q.   Mr. Sivac, you described while this delegation visited, being

21     forced to sing Serbian songs and give the Serbian three-fingered salute.

22     How did the members of this delegation react to this?

23        A.   Well, they laughed.  That was their reaction.  They couldn't

24     believe that this large number of men, the entire "intelligentsia" of

25     Prijedor at the time was so mortified and was so helpless and that they

Page 13199

 1     were forced to sing the Serbian Chetnik songs and give the three-fingered

 2     absolute and call out, This is Serbia, this is Serbia.  For us, this was

 3     humiliating, and for the men who are members of this delegation, they

 4     found that funny.

 5        Q.   Could you describe the appearance of detainees at the time?

 6        A.   At the time, the camp inmates looked really miserable and they

 7     all had obvious and visible signs of abuse.  They were very skinny.  And

 8     many of them had been ill, had fallen ill, because of the poor conditions

 9     in the rooms where they were kept.

10             So they looked really poor -- they looked bad and miserable.

11             MR. DOBBYN:  Could we now show 65 ter 2232.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MR. DOBBYN:  I'll move on.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, just for the record, we cannot

16     access 65 ter 2322 in e-court.

17             MR. DOBBYN:  2232.  And, sorry, it should be 22 -- 2233.

18             We do have it in Sanction, if that will help matters.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Sivac, and Your Honours, this picture is a still frame

20     shot from the video that has already been admitted as P1538, a video shot

21     at Omarska.

22             Mr. Sivac, looking at the physical condition of this man, how

23     typical was this of the prisoners at Omarska?

24        A.   Well, yes.  This is what they looked like, even worse.  There

25     were men who couldn't even get up on their feet.  That's how emaciated

Page 13200

 1     and beaten up they were.  They couldn't even stand on their feet.  And

 2     the, thanks to Burho and Mujo who were in our room, who had the courage

 3     to go and ask for some bread for them so they wouldn't die of hunger

 4     lying there in the rooms, because they couldn't go attend that one single

 5     meal.

 6             As for the man behind this emaciated man in white, he was the --

 7     he was a lawyer in Prijedor.  I believe his name was Basic.

 8        Q.   And could I tender --

 9        A.   And he was the secretary of the Executive Council in the

10     municipality.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DOBBYN:  Could I tender this photograph now.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01529.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. DOBBYN:

16        Q.   Mr. Sivac, in Stakic you mentioned a guard named Mladjo Radic.

17     How did you know Mr. Radic?

18        A.   Well, we used to work together in the security service.  He was

19     an active duty police officer, and when necessary, he would be

20     transferred to the police stations in Ljubija and Prijedor, and then

21     toward the end, just before 1992, he was assigned to work in the police

22     station in Omarska.

23        Q.   Now what position, if any, did he hold at Omarska camp?

24        A.   He was one of the shift commanders.  The worst shift in the

25     Omarska camp during which time, and understand his -- while he was the

Page 13201

 1     commander of that shift, the greatest number of killings and rapes of

 2     women occurred.

 3        Q.   Did you, on any occasion, speak to him at Omarska camp; and, if

 4     so, what did he say to you?

 5        A.   Once, when -- while we were returning from this meal, in the

 6     hallway, I ran into Mladjo Radic, with whom I used to be close friends

 7     for a while, I stopped briefly and asked him, Mladjo, tell me, what is

 8     going to happen with us?  And he replied, short and brief, Sivac, there

 9     is no help.  All of you here are slated for liquidation.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now move on.  In Stakic, you testified that you were

11     transferred from Omarska to Trnopolje on the 7th of August, 1992.  And

12     I'd like to show 65 ter 2483.

13             Mr. Sivac, do you recognise what's shown in this photograph?

14        A.   This is a view of the co-operative, the farmer's co-operative in

15     Trnopolje.  And on the right-hand side, this larger building, that was

16     the elementary school there Trnopolje.  And in fact that was where the

17     Trnopolje camp was.

18        Q.   Now there appear to be two buildings here, two main buildings,

19     one on left and one on the right, both coloured white.  Were detainees

20     held in both buildings?

21        A.   They were head held in both these buildings and there is another

22     building that is not shown in the photo here.  It is about -- in that

23     direction.  This was a rather run-down building, which used to house a

24     shop selling construction materials and there were some sheds attached to

25     it where some wooden boards were kept, and this is where camp inmates

Page 13202

 1     were held too.  But the largest number of inmates were actually held

 2     here, and I will mark the area where the fence ran.  It ran along this

 3     line that I marked.  The largest number of camp inmates were held in this

 4     area outdoors in the open, because not all of us could actually fit in

 5     all the facilities that were here.  So we were out in the open.

 6        Q.   Thanks.

 7             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this with the

 8     marks on it.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             MR. DOBBYN:  And I --

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01530.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MR. DOBBYN:

13        Q.   And --

14             JUDGE HALL:  And we're at the point for the break, Mr. Dobbyn.

15             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes.  Thanks, Your Honours.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, just before the witness comes in, I

20     have been asked to forward the request that we be able to formally excuse

21     the next witness for the rest of the day, ST-134.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  And I understand the gremlins have been added

23     this afternoon and we have to re-do an exhibit.

24             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  It's the -- sorry.  P1528 which

25     was the map, sorry, the photograph of Omarska with the various markings

Page 13203

 1     on, so ...

 2             JUDGE HALL:  In case you have not been alerted, Mr. Dobbyn, the

 3     50 minutes that the Chamber had allowed you on your application, you have

 4     exhausted 52 of those 50 minutes.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:  I understand, Your Honours.  If I could seek your

 6     indulgence.  I have just one photograph, which will perhaps take two or

 7     three minutes, and then to re -- go over the problematic photograph

 8     again.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             MR. DOBBYN:

11        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I have one final picture that I'd like you to look at.

12             MR. DOBBYN:  And if we could call up 65 ter 2240.

13        Q.   And, again, this is a still frame taken from Exhibit P1583 from a

14     segment that was shot at Trnopolje camp.

15             Mr. Sivac, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

16        A.   Yes.  This is my best friend from Prijedor,

17     Ahmed Djulkic [phoen].  He was a plumber in Prijedor.  And next to him I

18     believe is Penny Marshall.  Now, Your Honours, you can see here that --

19     what can you see in the background where you see this makeshift, some

20     kind of tarp, this is where the -- this is where we were kept in

21     Trnopolje.

22        Q.   Mr. Sivac, the physical condition of your friend, Mr. Djulkic,

23     was it common to see people in that sort of condition in Trnopolje?

24        A.   Well, Ahmed Djulkic --

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone

Page 13204

 1     not activated].

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  This is what the

 3     inmates looked like, the camp inmates who had been transferred from

 4     Omarska and Keraterm to Trnopolje.  Most of the time this is what they

 5     looked like.

 6             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd like to tender this picture now.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01531, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Dobbyn, as the witness says that this is one

10     of his friends, he could perhaps tell us how the man looked like before.

11             MR. DOBBYN:

12        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I wonder if you heard His Honour Judge Delvoie's

13     question.  Could you compare the condition of Mr. Djulkic in this photo

14     to how he had been before he was held in the -- at the detention camps?

15        A.   Well, I said this precisely because I had known him very well

16     before he was brought to the camp.  He looked very well, and he was very

17     well built.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MR. DOBBYN:

20        Q.   Now I have nothing further that I was going to cover with you

21     with the time available, Mr. Sivac.  However, there was a technical

22     problem.  The photograph showing Omarska camp that you made several

23     markings on, there was -- as I say, a technical problem, and your

24     markings weren't saved, so we will have to go over that again as quickly

25     as possible.

Page 13205

 1             MR. DOBBYN:  So if we could call again 65 ter 2234.

 2        Q.   Now you identified this earlier as being a panoramic photograph

 3     of Omarska camp.  You marked the wall of the restaurant with a cross and

 4     a number 1.  Could you mark that again, please.

 5        A.   Yes, that's number 1.  Here it is.  So I've done it.

 6        Q.   You also marked the garage where you were held with the number 2.

 7     Could you do that again, please.

 8        A.   It's here on this side.  Number 2 is where the garage was.

 9        Q.   Could you mark again Burho's room and Mujo's room.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you want me to mark?  I'm

12     sorry, I did not understand your question.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  Sorry.

14        Q.   Could you mark Burho's room -- [B/C/S on English channel]

15        A.   Yes, it right here, a room down here, number 3.  It's at the

16     lower level of the administration building.

17             MR. DOBBYN:  I'm sorry, just one second.  [B/C/S on English

18     channel].

19        Q.   Next, could you marked the interrogations [sic] rooms?

20        A.   Well, I will mark it.  That's here, the upper level, where you

21     see the windows of these buildings.  That is above Burho's and Mujo's

22     rooms in the garage area.  Let's put number 4 there.  There were a number

23     of offices where the inmates were questioned and during the night those

24     rooms were used for accommodating woman.

25        Q.   The next pace you marked was the hangar and you marked that with

Page 13206

 1     a number 5.  Could you do that again, please.

 2        A.   This is the building here.  Number 5.

 3        Q.   Could you mark the white house again, please, with the number 6.

 4        A.   The white house, right here, number 6.

 5        Q.   And the red house with number 7, please.

 6        A.   Seven, the red house.

 7        Q.   You also indicated where the glass house was.  If you could

 8     indicate that again and mark it with a number 8.

 9        A.   It's right here, between the administration building and the

10     cafeteria.  So that is number 8.  And this area which I will mark with

11     number 9, that's where the notorious pista was.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And that's all the places we had marked earlier on.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  So I would seek to tender this again.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document had already been

15     marked as Exhibit P01528.  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             MR. DOBBYN:

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sivac.  I have no further questions for you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

19             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you, sir.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. O'Sullivan:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Sir, you knew a name by the name of Milan Andzic, didn't you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   He was a shopkeeper from Omarska and he owned a tavern called

Page 13207

 1     Trijaz; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you also knew of a man by the name of Nedjo Delic; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, Nedjo Delic.

 6        Q.   This was a man who owned two restaurants, is that correct, the

 7     Europe restaurant, one in Prijedor, and one in Omarska?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this Milan Andzic, he formed a paramilitary group, didn't he,

10     that was led or commanded by a man named Radanovic?

11        A.   Yes.  He financed that.

12        Q.   And this Nenad Radanovic had been a taxi driver; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.  Nenad Radanovic also known as Cigo.

14        Q.   And you said Mr. Andzic had financed this paramilitary group.  By

15     that do you mean that he provided uniforms and weapons and training, that

16     sort of thing?

17        A.   Yes, he funded it.  He provided the funds, the pay and he also

18     purchased American uniforms for them, somewhere in Germany, through some

19     contacts of his.  And as for the weapons, this unit was armed by the

20     Yugoslav Army, and they went through training in Manjaca, and

21     Podkradica [phoen] and somewhere in the Banja Luka area.

22        Q.   And before the outbreak of war in Bosnia, this units was fighting

23     in Croatia; correct?

24        A.   They were established in Omarska, and they went through training

25     under the control of the Yugoslav Army, and then they were sent to the

Page 13208

 1     front lines in Western Slavonia, to fight.

 2        Q.   And the men who were in this paramilitary unit were local men

 3     from Omarska and Prijedor; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  For the most part, they were from those areas.

 5        Q.   And when they returned to Prijedor from Croatia, they had a large

 6     amount of war booty; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.  A large amount of war booty.

 8        Q.   And this was handed over to Mr. Andzic, and he collected this war

 9     booty and made profits from it; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  A large number of the items that had been stolen and taken

11     by this unit, by the members who fought in Western Slavonia was brought

12     over and put in the warehouse, the owner of which was Milan Andzic.

13             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Would it be possible to lower the arm of the

14     ELMO?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it seems okay now.  We can

16     manage this way.

17             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  There.

18        Q.   Yes, perhaps you can move closer to the microphone now that we

19     don't have to play peek-a-boo.

20             Okay.  So we are talking about the paramilitary formation.  When

21     this -- the one that Andzic formed, when the war broke out in Bosnia

22     these same paramilitaries were the ones committing crimes and looting to

23     a large extent in Prijedor, weren't they?

24        A.   Well, let me put it this way.  That unit was under the direct

25     control of the 374th Motorised Brigade and the 43rd Motorised Brigade,

Page 13209

 1     under the command of Radmilo Zeljaja.  They were, in other words, under

 2     the command of the Serbian army.

 3        Q.   And were they -- they were looting and bringing goods back to

 4     Mr. Andzic, weren't they?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And they had participated in the attack on Kozarac; is that

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Together with the 5th Kozara Brigade led by Pero Covic.

 9     Their axis of attack on a Prijedor was Omarska, Kevjani, Jakupovici,

10     Kamnecani [phoen], and Kozarac.

11             Would you please just correct the transcript.  It should read

12     Pero Colic, C-o-l-i-c.  That's right, that's correct now.

13        Q.   And the same Mr. Andzic that we have been talking about, he was

14     one of the people who financed and organised the establishment of

15     Omarska; is that right?

16        A.   The Omarska camp as well as all of the other camps in Prijedor

17     were established by the civilian authorities of the municipality of

18     Prijedor.  Milan Andzic provided logistics, since he is an Omarska

19     resident.  He also provided finances to secure food for the detainees.

20     He also financed a Red Cross department which was in Omarska, which

21     supposedly was to take care of the food that was to be given to the

22     detainees.

23        Q.   And along with this Mr. Andzic, the other man we mentioned,

24     Mr. Delic, also was behind the establishment of Omarska; is that right?

25        A.   They logistically aided those camps.  But to reiterate, the

Page 13210

 1     Prijedor camps were established following a decision of the civilian

 2     authorities of the Prijedor municipality.  These two men simply supported

 3     those camps, since they were well off.

 4        Q.   And the civilian authority you're referring to is the Prijedor

 5     Crisis Staff; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.  Civilian authorities headed by the Crisis Staff of the

 7     municipality.

 8        Q.   Okay.  In the Brdjanin trial, and the reference there is page

 9     12799, that's 1D04-2107, you testified that prior to the 30th of April,

10     1992, prior to that date, all incidents in Prijedor were committed by

11     members of the Serb army; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And you also testified that after April 30th, 1992, paramilitary

14     formations and gangs headed by people like Zigic and Dosan became active

15     in Prijedor municipality and they took justice into their own hands; is

16     that right?

17        A.   Yes, in Prijedor.

18             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Sivac.  My name is

23     Dragan Krgovic, and I appear on behalf of Stojan Zupljanin.  I'll have

24     some questions for you today.

25             Just a word of caution, since you have already testified here

Page 13211

 1     before, I want to remind you that since we use the same language, we

 2     should observe a pause between questions and answers.  I can see that you

 3     speak quite fast, which is also my case.  We should take care of that so

 4     that the other participants in the trial could follow.

 5             Mr. Sivac, the first question.  In your previous testimony, you

 6     mentioned that you stopped working for the State Security Service in

 7     1990; is that correct?

 8        A.   Not state security.  That's -- this was the security service and

 9     that was on the 1st of January, 1991 [as interpreted].

10        Q.   Which department?  What did you work for?  Was it the National

11     Security Service or the DB that we used to call in the former Yugoslavia?

12        A.   No.  I worked in the encryption department of the centre in

13     Prijedor.

14        Q.   In the public security station?

15        A.   No.  In the SUP of Prijedor.  In 1990, it bore that title, the

16     Secretariat of Internal Affairs.  And within the secretariat, there was

17     public security as well as the police, and a general administration

18     service.

19             In Prijedor, there was a branch office of the state security

20     though.  The centre of state security -- of the State Security Service

21     was in Banja Luka.

22        Q.   And you worked in the general sector or in the branch office?

23        A.   No.  In the general sector.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, one moment, please.

25             Mr. Witness, you said you worked in the security service until

Page 13212

 1     the 1st of January of what year?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1990.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It was 1991 in the -- in the record.

 4             So it is 1990.  1st of January 1990, right?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] You worked in the communications and encryption

 9     department in the SUP of Prijedor.  That is to say the Municipal

10     Secretariat of Internal Affairs.

11        A.   This was the schematic of organisation of such bodies in the

12     former Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That was the title.

13        Q.   Following that did you remain as a reserve member?  Did you

14     remain with the reserve police in -- in -- during the war at all?

15        A.   No.  I was not assigned to any body or unit.  I started working

16     as a correspondent for the Sarajevo TV in Prijedor, Bosanski Novi,

17     Bosanski Dubica, Sanski Most, and I also covered parts of Croatia,

18     neighbouring Prijedor.

19        Q.   And in your previous testimony, when you mentioned some other

20     people working for the security service, you did not distinguish between

21     those in the State Security Service and in the other type.  You all

22     referred to them as security employees; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   We needed to clarify this, because in your previous testimony the

25     terms we found were the state security and the security service.

Page 13213

 1        A.   Yes.  That is how I explained it.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I'll now go back to what my learned friend,

 3     Mr. Prosecutor, asked you just before the break.  He invited you to

 4     identify Stojan Zupljanin in the courtroom.  Let me ask you this: do you

 5     recall what Stojan Zupljanin looked like in 1992?

 6        A.   I can recall what he looked like more or less.  He a bit more

 7     hair.  He was greying at the time.  And in Omarska, I mainly focussed on

 8     the political delegation.  I mentioned the police delegation only in the

 9     margins.  Zeljko Meakic and Simo Drljaca are the people I referred to

10     because they were in charge of the Omarska camp.  I did not refer to

11     Mr. Zupljanin because he was part of the political delegation from

12     Banja Luka.  I focussed only on the people from the police delegation.

13             JUDGE HALL:  If I may intervene, Mr. Krgovic.  Inasmuch as this,

14     quote/unquote, identification of Mr. Zupljanin seemed to have been taken

15     up by both sides, Mr. Witness, did you know Mr. Zupljanin before that

16     time, when -- when you saw him on that occasion?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not personally.  I --

18             JUDGE HALL:  I should have asked, did you know who he was?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew he was chief of the security

20     centre in Banja Luka.  I didn't know him personally though.  When I was

21     still with the service, I don't remember having met him, ever, in the

22     course of my duties.

23             When the political delegation from Banja Luka arrived though,

24     save for a great number of Banja Luka journalists, there was also

25     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, who was dressed in a camouflage blue and white

Page 13214

 1     police uniform and he also sported a dark blue beret.  He escorted the

 2     political delegation from Banja Luka.  After a short report by

 3     Zeljko Mejakic, who was the Omarska camp commander to

 4     Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin.  Behind Zeljko Mejakic, there was Simo Drljaca who

 5     was the security chief from Prijedor, and Mr. Jankovic who was the police

 6     commander.  When the ceremony was over and the report was given, as well

 7     as the salute, Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, as well as Mr. Simo Drljaca, met,

 8     and together with the other members of the delegation, they toured the

 9     Omarska camp.  From that place, they went through the detainee lineup and

10     went straight for the management building.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

12             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on a minute.  Mr. Sivac, were you able, at

14     that occasion, to identify right away, Mr. Zupljanin; or did someone else

15     tell you at that occasion, that this was Mr. Zupljanin?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no.  It took only a brief

17     moment for someone to be identified in such a delegation.  It could only

18     have been Stojan Zupljanin.  There were no problems regarding

19     identification.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But just how did you then manage to identify

21     Mr. Zupljanin without knowing him in advance?  Which -- on which basis

22     did you conclude that this was, indeed, Mr. Zupljanin?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on his previous TV

24     appearances, when Mr. Stojan Zupljanin provided interviews.  I can't

25     recall exactly, but I think it had to do with an operation carried out by

Page 13215

 1     the centre of the security service in Kotor Varos municipality when part

 2     of that municipality was ethnically cleansed.  He appeared before TV

 3     cameras and explained why that operation took place.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So if I understand it correctly, you were then

 5     able, on that basis, to recognise the person as being Mr. Zupljanin, when

 6     you saw him live?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  As well as the other people

 8     who stood next to me, my mates from the camp, they covered that.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

10             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, very briefly just to touch on that, I

11     would just refer back also to his direct examination, page 24, lines 23,

12     which also covers that.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, you just said that you saw

15     Stojan Zupljanin following that operation in Kotor Varos.  This

16     apparently took place before you were arrested and taken to Omarska and

17     that is the basis of how you recognised him?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What if I told that you the Kotor Varos operation and the

20     conflict which erupted there happened in mid-June and early July 1991,

21     and that it was not on the basis --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 1992.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] And it was not and on that basis that you would

25     recognise him what would you say?

Page 13216

 1        A.   Well, it could have been regarding some other operation, but I

 2     know fully well that Mr. Stojan Zupljanin gave interviews and it was only

 3     then that I realised who he was and what he -- his job was.

 4        Q.   Before you were arrested, did you know that there were no

 5     operations in Kotor Varos?

 6        A.   I did mention Kotor Varos but I saw some other interviews

 7     alongside the interview on the occasion of that operation.  It is

 8     possible though that those interviews took place when I was still back in

 9     the apartment in Prijedor.  I don't know whether the operation involved

10     Sanski Most or something else.  That's something I'm not certain of.

11        Q.   While you were being proofed by the Prosecutor did they show you

12     a photograph or a -- footage of Stojan Zupljanin?

13        A.   I don't think so.  Well, yes, yes, they did.

14        Q.   And it was in Kotor Varos?

15        A.   No.  There was a photograph with Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.  He a

16     beard and wore civilian clothes with a group of what seemed to be

17     friends.

18        Q.   When you testified in the Stakic case, as well as in the previous

19     statement you gave to the Prosecutors, you said it was Vojo Kupresanin.

20     In actual fact you mixed the two people.

21        A.   No. I spoke in haste, and I later on corrected myself and I still

22     stand by when I say that build Mr. Zupljanin was in Omarska in July 1992.

23        Q.   When you saw him in Omarska did very a beard?

24        A.   No, he did not.

25        Q.   Mr. Sivac, when you came to testify in the Stakic case you said

Page 13217

 1     it was Vojo Kupresanin.  That is not in dispute, correct?  Let's go step

 2     by step; is that correct?

 3        A.   No.  I may have misspoken, since I speak fast.  I may have said

 4     Vojo Kupresanin in some context.  But I recall well that a delegation

 5     included Predrag Radic who was the chief from Banja Luka.  But it is

 6     beyond dispute that the main person was Radoslav Brdjanin on that day and

 7     I focussed on him.  He was the most interesting person there, because he

 8     was the man number one of the Serb Autonomous District or the Serb

 9     Krajina.

10        Q.   Mr. Sivac, when you testified in the Stakic case, that afternoon

11     when you arrived, the Prosecutor showed you a number of articles from

12     Kozarski Vjesnik which you had not seen before that; correct?

13        A.   That is it possible although I did not recall that.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Just a small correction.  It's page 44, line 24,

15     and then answer on line 25.  I think maybe it is a some small typo or

16     error.  I think the answer should be related to the question, actually.

17     The end of the question, and the answer was that what -- what Mr. Sivac

18     said that Mr. Zupljanin did not wear a beard at that time.  It's a bit

19     confusing, so maybe we could clarify that, just for the record.

20             MR. KRGOVIC:

21        Q.   Mr. Sivac, I apologise for this.  We probably spoke fast, both

22     you and I.  But my question was whether Mr. Zupljanin, at the time, had a

23     beard, and you said no.

24        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

25        Q.   And he did not have a moustache either.

Page 13218

 1        A.   No, no, he didn't.

 2        Q.   A lot of time has elapsed since.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 4     P1378 now.

 5             Could we just zoom in.

 6        Q.   We see this article before us, and you were shown this article in

 7     the Stakic case, and you had said then that it had been shown to you just

 8     before the trial.  And do you recall actually being shown this and

 9     reading it?

10        A.   Well, it's possible, but I can't really recall.

11        Q.   And here it is mentioned that Stojan Zupljanin was a member of

12     that delegation.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you obtained this information at the Stakic trial?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And then, in the Brdjanin cases, on the basis of this article,

17     you changed your testimony and you said that this man was in fact

18     Stojan Zupljanin.  That helped you refresh your memory, right?

19        A.   Well, no.  But after I read there article that I was 100 per cent

20     sure that it was, indeed, Stojan Zupljanin and that this article, too,

21     proves that I was correct when I identified him as such.

22        Q.   But the correction in -- in the testimony came as a result of

23     this article as well, where there was mention that it was

24     Stojan Zupljanin?

25        A.   Well, no, but it was -- it was my first impression that it was in

Page 13219

 1     fact Zupljanin, but it is possible that I misspoke and that I just

 2     mentioned the other name by error.

 3        Q.   And frequently in your testimony, you actually substituted and

 4     kept confusing the names, Zupljanin and Kupresanin; correct?

 5        A.   Well, it is possible but I don't see that there is any big

 6     problem with that because Stojan Zupljanin was, in my view, a bit similar

 7     to Kupresanin.  He looked a bit like him.  They were good-looking men,

 8     remarkable features.

 9        Q.   Vojo Kupresanin was blond wasn't he?

10        A.   Well, no.  He actually had highlights, blond or grey highlights

11     and I'm not sure whether it was natural because I'm not a hairdresser,

12     but that's what it looked like.

13        Q.   And you thought that Vojo Kupresanin, too, was a person who came

14     to Prijedor to implement this separation in MUP along ethnic lines?

15        A.   Well, no, I did not see Kupresanin at the time.  But I know for

16     sure that Zupljanin was in that delegation, because the Banja Luka media,

17     which were under the direct control of the Serbian Democratic Party,

18     actually published on the very following day and mentioned that Stojan

19     Zupljanin, among others, was a member of this delegation that was sent

20     because, according to them, there was some kind of an assassination

21     attempt plotted, being plotted.

22        Q.   Do you recall that you actually published a book about these

23     events surrounding Prijedor?

24        A.   Well, yes.  And I failed to mention this to the Trial Chamber.

25     Currently I'm a freelance analyst and writer, and I am very interested in

Page 13220

 1     the events in Prijedor over the past 20 years.  And in two years, it will

 2     have been 20 years since the ethnic cleansing in Prijedor, and I am

 3     trying to write a book - I'm also done with it - where the truth about

 4     Prijedor will be told, and the name -- the title of the book will be; the

 5     Serbian Lies and Deceptions and the Truth about Prijedor.

 6        Q.   And you wrote a book entitled: How big is the Carsija in

 7     Prijedor.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness replied

 9     with a yes, but it was not recorded in the transcript.

10             Could we now pull up in e-court 2D09- --

11             JUDGE HALL:  [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not

12     activated].

13             MR. KRGOVIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] I apologise.  Mr. Sivac your answer did not find

15     its way into transcript.  When I asked you about the book entitled:  How

16     Big is Carsija in Prijedor.  That's the book that that you wrote?

17        A.   Yes, I did.  I wrote that book, I think, in 1993, after I left

18     Bosnia.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we now have 2D09-0331,

20     please.

21             Your Honours, this is a book authored by the witness.  It was

22     downloaded into e-court, but it hasn't been translated because the

23     Defence did not have the intention of using this book until we

24     received -- the proofing notes from the Prosecutor and we realised that

25     we would need to verify or clarify a couple of things and I will only be

Page 13221

 1     referring to two or three pages.  I will ask the witness to read it and I

 2     will only ask him about that portion.  We have submitted a request for

 3     translation.  However, because we received the information from the

 4     Prosecutor rather late, we were unable to provide the translation in a

 5     timely fashion.

 6             Could we please show the witness --

 7        Q.   Mr. Sivac, this is the book we were discussing; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  This book was prepared on the basis of a large number of

 9     newspaper reports that I wrote about the Prijedor events.  My colleagues

10     actually collected them, compiled them, and issued it as -- and printed

11     it as a book.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pull up page

13     ERN 00124083.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 01124083, page 63 of

15     the book.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 086083.  We need 083; this is 086.

17     24083.

18        Q.   Mr. Sivac, please take a look at the first part of this page.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we need the previous page.

20     083.

21        Q.   In this book that you published in 1993, as you said, in the last

22     paragraph of this first part it says:  "From Banja Luka..."

23             Could you please read it out loud?

24        A.   "From Banja Luka, Vujo Kupresanin came in person.  He was a

25     teacher.  And one of the leading Serbs in Bosanski Krajina in order to

Page 13222

 1     talk the police in Prijedor into a division within their ranks.  In that,

 2     he was not successful as it seems."

 3        Q.   Do you recall that you wrote this?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Do you know what source you based this on?

 6        A.   Well, all the information that we had, we received from the

 7     journalists from Banja Luka, our colleagues.  As for us, we were banned.

 8     We were not allowed to work, especially me, and as of March 1992, I

 9     stopped reporting, and I only informed my headquarters and reported to

10     them the main events.  We were unable to provide any video footage to the

11     Sarajevo television, and as for the Banja Luka studio you should know

12     that it had already been taken over by the Serbian Democratic Party and

13     they had started broadcast the programmes of the Serbian television from

14     there.

15        Q.   So if I understand you correctly, the information on the events

16     on Prijedor that Vojo Kupresanin was in Prijedor, you received that

17     information from Banja Luka, right, not from Prijedor?

18        A.   Yes, from my colleagues in Banja Luka, who were close to the

19     circles of the Serbian leadership in Banja Luka.

20        Q.   Can you recall perhaps the names of the people who provided this

21     information to you?

22        A.   Well, for the most part, the information was provided by our

23     colleagues, Slobodan Pesevic, Boro Maric, Kozomara.

24        Q.   What about this particular bit of information?

25        A.   Well, I don't know specifically, but I received this from

Page 13223

 1     Mr. Boro Grubic who was in direct contact with colleagues from Banja Luka

 2     because they trusted him.

 3        Q.   When you talked about the arrival of Stojan Zupljanin in

 4     April 1992, you said that the same information was provided to you by

 5     Boro Grubic, you received that information from him?

 6        A.   Yes.  He was a colleague of mine.  He was the editor, and he was

 7     in the group, League for Peace, that actually rallied, that conducted

 8     rallies outside the municipal building.

 9        Q.   Mr. Sivac, you were not part of this rally when they went out,

10     outside the municipal building, when the representatives of the League

11     arrived?

12        A.   Yes, I was there.

13        Q.   And you did not see any members of that delegation, did you?

14        A.   Well, precisely because they wanted to avoid any kind of verbal

15     incidents.  The delegation was brought into the building from the back

16     entrance.

17        Q.   And you must be aware that Mr. Brdjanin was not in that

18     delegation, that it was only Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Bajazid Jahic, who was

19     Mr. Zupljanin's deputy, two policeman; correct?

20        A.   No.  The information we received was that the delegation, among

21     whom was Stojan Zupljanin, was in the municipal building.

22        Q.   But you didn't know who else was there with Mr. Zupljanin?

23        A.   Well, I don't know.  Maybe I mentioned Radoslav Brdjanin, because

24     he was the boss there, and I think without the political leaders, such a

25     thing would not have been possible.  It would not be possible to carry it

Page 13224

 1     out.

 2        Q.   And at this time, outside the municipal building a group of

 3     people gathered.  You said members of the Patriotic League and they had

 4     Green Berets and lilies as insignia, correct?

 5        A.   Well, no, that is not correct.  These were just regular people.

 6     How could it be the way you are putting.  The people who were in the

 7     rally were Croats and Serbs and Muslims.

 8        Q.   Do you know what the purpose thereafter meeting was?

 9        A.   Well, we were informed that they had come to negotiate the

10     division of the Prijedor police by peaceful means.

11        Q.   Do you know that following that, the delegation, a member of

12     which Mr. Stojan Zupljanin was, went to have --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters request, could the counsel please

14     repeat the names.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know after this event

16     because they were displeased with the fact that this delegation actually

17     was sneaked into the municipal building.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I apologise.  I will repeat my question.  So my question was, and

20     this was not recorded in the transcript.  My question was:  whether you

21     know that after this, the delegation -- or, rather, Stojan Zupljanin and

22     the other person who was with him that they went to the polices station

23     in Prijedor to have a meeting there with Mr. Talundzic and that they

24     spent some five hours there.

25        A.   No, I don't know that.  All I know is that the group that had

Page 13225

 1     protested, because of the division of the police, very soon dispersed.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] I apologise.  My question was not in there, I'm

 5     looking at the transcript.  I was perhaps speeding, as it were.

 6             So my question was that Stojan Zupljanin, together with other men

 7     who was -- who were in the delegation with him, went to the police

 8     station in Prijedor to meet Mr. Talundzic.  Do you know who Mr. Talundzic

 9     was?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   He was the chief of the public security station there Prijedor?

12        A.   Would you like me to tell you more about him?

13        Q.   No, just his position.

14        A.   Yes, he was the chief of the public security station, a member of

15     the Party for Democratic Action.

16        Q.   The meeting that was held in the municipal building, do you know

17     that, in addition to Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Jahic the meeting was attended

18     Mr. Mirza Mujadzic and Mr. Muhamed Cehajic, the municipal president?

19        A.   Well, I have already said that in my earlier testimonies that

20     this meeting was attended also by members of the then-authorities in

21     Prijedor, and the president of the municipality at the time was the

22     legally elected professor, Muhamed Cehajic, and Dr. Mirza Mujadzic,

23     probably as a member of the Party for Democratic Action, also attended

24     the meeting.

25        Q.   And did you know that the purpose or the subject that was

Page 13226

 1     discussed at the meeting was to actually appease the situation in

 2     Prijedor until a political solution was found, including the situation in

 3     MUP, this meeting being in April 1992?

 4        A.   No.  All we knew was that the delegation had arrived Prijedor and

 5     that they came to force the then-authorities in Prijedor to divide the

 6     Prijedor police and we had very little information because this was a

 7     closed meeting, and I'm telling you only about what we were told at that

 8     time, in reply to our question.

 9        Q.   Did you know that one of the results of those talks which

10     included Mr. Zupljanin was that when it comes to the Prijedor police that

11     there were no changes to be made to the personnel or the insignia.  This

12     included all personnel, those who signed and those who did not sign this

13     oath to the Serbian MUP?

14        A.   Do you mean the April or the May meeting?

15        Q.   The April/May -- or the April meeting.

16        A.   I don't know what the conclusion was, but I know that by

17     April the professional policemen of the SUP of Prijedor already sported

18     the Serbian insignia with the four S's.  If you want me to, I can specify

19     the names of those people.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 2D18.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, just one second, please.

22             Mr. Witness, could you repeat the title of your book, please?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The title of my book is:  "How big

24     is the Carsija in Prijedor."

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, we believe the meaning of

Page 13227

 1     it is the public opinion or as the rumour has it in Prijedor.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult to translate.  It's

 3     a verse from a Bosnian folk epic.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  But we have some description of what it

 5     meant.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, have a look at the document.  It was

 8     sent by Stojan Zupljanin to all public security stations.  You used to

 9     work for the police and I believe you recognise an incoming telegram?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   This has to do with the signing of statements and the insignia of

12     the Serbian MUP.  Have a look at the fourth paragraph from the top which

13     says:

14             "The obligations mentioned in this telegram do not apply to the

15     Prijedor and Kotor Varos SUPs.  Authorised officials at these stations

16     may continue to wear the current insignia if they wish to do so until

17     further notice (until the political situation in these municipalities is

18     resolved)."

19             Mr. Sivac, this document illustrates the very thing I mentioned

20     to you and that is that Mr. Zupljanin's visit, as well as that of

21     Mr. Jakic was in this vein, in trying to reach a political solution and

22     the conclusion was not to change any insignia in Prijedor and not to have

23     any divisions there.  Was that the information you received?

24        A.   Yes, in the end, we received information to the effect that the

25     Prijedor police was not to be split until further notice.  That was in

Page 13228

 1     April.

 2        Q.   You also spoke about having heard of Mr. Zupljanin's visits to

 3     Prijedor after that, and that again loyalty oaths were being mentioned

 4     and how Muslim employees were to acknowledge the existence of the Serbian

 5     police; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I do seem to recall that.

 7        Q.   You said you heard that over the radio.

 8        A.   No.  My colleague, Mr. Grubic tried to join the meeting at the

 9     Ljubija iron ore mine which is vis-a-vis the SUP building.  However he

10     was not allowed, since it was a closed meeting with the employees of the

11     security service.  From certain people from the security service with

12     whom he was on good terms, he received that type of information.

13        Q.   Mr. Sivac, is it possible that you mixed up two meetings in

14     April?  One which held in the municipal building, which then continued in

15     the police station building; and that you mixed up the two meetings in

16     April, having concluded that some of them spilled over into May which

17     were attended by Mr. Zupljanin.

18        A.   No.  On the 30th of April, as you know, there was a pouch carried

19     out by the military and the police.  There was a takeover of power -- of

20     power in Prijedor, and the police was unified at that time.

21             On the 30th of April, the Serb colleagues in the police station

22     in Prijedor disarmed all Muslim and Croat colleagues who happened to have

23     been there.  They took away their weapons and took over the Security

24     Service Centre in Prijedor.

25             After that, at the meeting which was called, a decision was made

Page 13229

 1     that the employees of the security service who were not Serbs, i.e.

 2     Muslims and Croats, should sign loyalty oaths if they wanted to remain in

 3     their positions.  They were required to do so in order to show their

 4     loyalty to the new Serb authorities.

 5             A colleague of mine who had worked with me for a number of years

 6     in the communications and encryption department was the only Muslim

 7     remaining in the centre, and after that meeting, he talked to me, asking

 8     me whether he should sign the loyalty oath or not because he was

 9     undecided.  I told him, Well, think carefully and decide for yourself

10     what to do so.  He did sign eventually.  Nonetheless, he was soon kicked

11     out.

12             As for the rest, by late May, were taken to Keraterm and Omarska

13     and killed there.  Out of the total number of professional policeman and

14     employees of the security service, less than five remain alive.  Their

15     only mistake was that they were Muslims or Croats.

16        Q.   So Bozo Grubic provided you information with this meeting?

17        A.   Bozo Grubic was in the iron ore mine building.  However he was

18     denied access to the meeting.  And from Mirsad Cahuric, who worked with

19     me in the encryption department, I also learned similar information.  He,

20     however, was witness to that meeting.

21        Q.   And you did not hear that over the radio, sometime in May 1992 in

22     Prijedor?

23        A.   Well, one could hear all sorts of things on Radio Prijedor.

24        Q.   But not this?

25        A.   No.  This came directly from the participants or people who were

Page 13230

 1     asked to sign loyalty oaths.

 2        Q.   We're talking about the Kozarac meeting.  You could not hear that

 3     over Radio Prijedor?

 4        A.   That's a different thing.  Do not mix the two.  Do not mix the

 5     meeting about loyalty oaths and Kozarac where the police was forced,

 6     although 95 per cent of them were Muslim, to accept the new insignia and

 7     be loyal to the new Serb authorities.

 8        Q.   Did you not say that that meeting was held in Prijedor in the

 9     iron ore mine and that there was a rally in front of the building?

10        A.   No.  You are confusing the two or trying to confuse me.  There

11     were no Green Berets in front of the municipal building.  These were

12     regular people, mostly intellectuals, headed by Dr. Eso Sadikovic, and it

13     was decided at that meeting that the Prijedor police not be split up.

14     And as I said, the delegation entered the municipal building through the

15     back door.  The second meeting was after it's 30th of April, after the

16     military police takeover took place, when they took over the police, the

17     municipality building and the radio station.  By that time, there was

18     already an ultimatum in place, either you sign a loyalty oath or you go.

19     Either way, your fate was going to be the same.

20        Q.   What about the Kozarac meeting?

21        A.   That's a third thing.  It was a sealed-off area.  The new Serb

22     authorities sealed it off, cut electricity, water, telephone lines and

23     Kozarac was surrounded by arsenals of weapon, tank units, artillery, and

24     they all waited for the right moment to start of the ethnic cleansing of

25     Kozarac.

Page 13231

 1        Q.   I'm asking you about the meeting in Kozarac.  Where did that

 2     information come from about that meeting?

 3        A.   Mr. Krgovic, to repeat, we got that information from our

 4     Banja Luka colleagues.  It's a delegation from Banja Luka attempted to

 5     get in touch with the political leadership in Kozarac to force them to

 6     surrenderer and to acknowledge the new Serb authorities.

 7        Q.   And that's when the Green Berets appeared in Kozarac, protesting

 8     in front of the building where the meeting was held?

 9        A.   There were no Green Berets in Kozarac.  The police was there.

10     What context do you put these Green Berets in?  You seem to be quite

11     obsessed.

12        Q.   It is you who is obsessed, rather than me, and I can show you

13     your book, which is 2D09-0331.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your book, the ERN number is

15     01124109.

16             The next page, please.

17        Q.   Mr. Sivac, please read out loud the paragraph starting with:

18     "It is because of that, from Banja Luka ..."

19        A.   Excuse me?

20        Q.   The third paragraph from the top.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Please zoom in.

22        Q.   Out loud, please.

23        A.   Which paragraph?

24        Q.   The third from the top.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could the witness please be

Page 13232

 1     asked to read slowly.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It was because of that, that" --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The interpreters are asking that you read slowly,

 4     please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It was because of that, that the

 6     chief of the security services centre, Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, urgently

 7     arrived from Banja Luka with his escort so that with the help of

 8     Simo Drljaca, Simo Miskovic and others of the city council of the SDS,

 9     they should try to convince and persuade the people of Kozarac to

10     acknowledge the Serb authorities and to sign loyalty oaths to it.  The

11     people of Kozarac did not budge.  The response was clear.  This time as

12     well they would not consent to any preconditions acknowledging the

13     forcible takeover, and they would refuse to sport any Serbian insignia in

14     Carsija.  That is, the old town.  They only acknowledged the legally

15     elected authorities and the sovereign independent republic of Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina.  Around the building where the talks were being held there

17     was a spontaneous gathering of a larger group of residents.  A few young

18     men sported red berets with lilies on their heads.  It was a clear answer

19     to the creators of the new order in this area that should go back home

20     with job undone.  Back to the most Chetnik town of all, Banja Luka."

21        Q.   It seem there is was a mistake.  Not Red Berets.  I think you

22     said Green Berets.

23        A.   "There were a few young men who had green berets with lilies,

24     only a few."

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, we are at the time for a break.  Is

Page 13233

 1     this a convenient time?

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated] yes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can continue.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you've read this portion of your

10     book.  Do you recall writing that down in the book, Mr. Sivac.

11        A.   Well, just a moment.  Which part are you referring to?

12        Q.   Well, the previous part.  Let go back a bit.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the previous page.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, I do recall, the portion

15     that I mentioned that in the group that had gathered outside the police

16     station there were several young men with green berets on.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Well, precisely.  That's why I wanted to take

19     you back there.

20             Tell me, Mr. Sivac, the source for this information was again the

21     same journalist, Mr. Grubic?

22        A.   No.  No, sir.  Kozarac at that time was tightly sealed off from

23     the rest of the word.  Writing this book in 1993, I came by some

24     photographs from some people were in Kosovo, photographs taken in Kozarac

25     at the time.  And one of the photos depicted a group of policemen from

Page 13234

 1     Kozarac whom I knew and a group of men that I did not know, who were not

 2     familiar.

 3        Q.   But you mentioned that in your book; correct?  You did write this

 4     in your book?

 5        A.   Well, yes, I did say there were just a few people with

 6     green berets in that group, and at that time that was a sort of symbol

 7     for those people who were fighting for a democratic Bosnia which, at the

 8     time was already internationally recognised.

 9        Q.   All right.  So these two bits of information, the meeting at

10     Kozarac and the meeting at the mine, this is information that you did not

11     get from Prijedor.  You got it from Mr. Grubic and the second bit of

12     information from people from Kozarac.

13        A.   Well, no.  I got it from the people from Banja Luka, a group of

14     journalists from Banja Luka, because the -- the -- the group of people

15     who were accompanying the delegation or who came to Omarska, they

16     provided that information to us.  And because Kozarac was shut off from

17     the rest of the world we were frequently on the phones with our

18     colleagues from Banja Luka, who provided a large number of information

19     about the activities of the leadership of the Serbian Autonomous Krajina

20     as it was called then.

21        Q.   And these two bits of information did you not hear them on the

22     radio you got them from the sources that just mentioned a few moments

23     ago; correct?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Not on Radio Prijedor.

25        Q.   Mr. Sivac, let me ask you, or, rather, the reason that I'm asking

Page 13235

 1     this is in the proofing notes where you were proofed by the Prosecution,

 2     you said something to the effect that you received this information from

 3     Radio Prijedor.  So quite the contrary to what are you saying now.

 4        A.   Well, it's possible that I said that then, but the main source of

 5     information came from Banja Luka.  In other words, I received that

 6     information from Banja Luka.  It is possible that Radio Prijedor

 7     broadcast that information because they broadcast everything, but the

 8     most reliable information came from Banja Luka.

 9        Q.   So where you said to the Prosecutor about the source of

10     information for those two meetings that is not correct.  What is correct

11     is what you are saying here today; correct?

12        A.   Well, it's possible that if the Prosecutor asked me where I

13     obtained that information from, it's possible that I said that maybe I

14     got it from Radio Prijedor, but as I recalled all these events after that

15     conversation with him, I recall the sources of information that we

16     received at that time.

17        Q.   And it seems, because this is something that you said to the

18     Prosecutor yesterday, you cannot tell us with full certainty where you

19     actually obtained this information from; correct?

20        A.   Well, let's put it that way.  It was either from Banja Luka or

21     from Radio Prijedor.  But, in any case, that information did reach us.

22        Q.   But you're not certain of the provenance of this particular bit

23     of information.

24        A.   Well, right now, I'm pretty certain that it did come from the

25     Banja Luka circle of journalists, and Radio Prijedor probably broadcast

Page 13236

 1     that, because they broadcast more or less everything.  But they, too,

 2     could not get -- could not have gotten this information from the spot

 3     where the meeting was actually held.  They, too, received that

 4     information from the same source why we got it from, from Banja Luka.

 5        Q.   But didn't you say just a few minutes ago that the information

 6     that you got on the meeting in the mine, that you received that

 7     information from some people who were not allowed to attend that meeting?

 8        A.   Well, for that particular bit of information, yes, that's what I

 9     said.  That has nothing to do with this bit of information.  I have -- I

10     keep thinking that what you're referring to is the meeting, the

11     conversation at the police building, where they were trying to actually

12     make these people accept the takeover and the division within the police.

13        Q.   Well, I was asking you about the meeting at the mine.

14        A.   Well, at the mine, as I've already said, and I'm quite certain

15     about that, because this was closed meeting, it was closed for the public

16     and closed for journalists, my colleague Grubic who used his informers at

17     the security service, he was nearby.  He was near the area where the

18     meeting was held and after the meeting he received this information, and

19     then he also obtained direct information about what was being discussed

20     at these meetings.  And as for me, I received the direct information from

21     Mr. Mirsad Cahuric who attended that meeting.  He was in the

22     Communications Department of the police and that's where I knew him from.

23             The meeting where the gentlemen from Banja Luka and the gentlemen

24     from Prijedor were actually discussing on the mode of work of the

25     Banja Luka police and then someone asked about what about those people

Page 13237

 1     who had not been expelled from their jobs -- Muslim or ethnic or Croatian

 2     ethnicities, and then they were told that such people should be made to

 3     sign their oath of loyalty to the new Serbian authorities and

 4     Mr. Simo Drljaca agreed to that, so that is a number of people who worked

 5     at the security station signed the oath of loyalty but another number of

 6     men did not.  But even those who did sign it ended up in Omarska and

 7     Keraterm and that's where life -- where their lives ended.

 8        Q.   So, sir, the meeting that you mentioned, the police meeting, was

 9     the information you had about was neither from the Banja Luka journalists

10     nor from Radio Prijedor, but, rather, Boro Grubic?

11        A.   Well, yes, that too.  But I think that this was also reported on

12     Radio Prijedor and I also think there was an article that appeared in

13     Kozarski Vjesnik, but I'm not sure exactly when that was published.

14        Q.   Mr. Sivac, so all the information you received or all information

15     that came either from Banja Luka or from Prijedor, they were actually

16     reported on Radio Prijedor; correct?

17        A.   Well, yes.  Most of them.

18        Q.   Well, for instance, if Mr. Zupljanin came and attended a meeting

19     there, it would certainly have been printed in the Kozarski Vjesnik;

20     correct?

21        A.   Well, yes, but that depended on the editors of Kozarski Vjesnik.

22     I never was one, so I don't think you should put that question to me.

23        Q.   But, for instance, if Mr. Zupljanin came and attended the meeting

24     this would certainly have been reported, correct, in the

25     Kozarski Vjesnik?

Page 13238

 1        A.   Well, again all I can say is that I was not an editor there and I

 2     can only say that they were -- they used, for the most part, the news

 3     agency's reports or news, but how exactly it was that they came by

 4     information that they printed in Kozarski Vjesnik, I really don't know

 5     exactly and I never really tried to find out.

 6        Q.   Sir, let me ask you, is Boro Grubic alive?

 7        A.   No, as far as I know, he passed away a few years ago and he was a

 8     very good friend of mine.  We worked together for some seven or eight

 9     years.  He worked as a journalist in Oslobodjenje and I worked on the

10     television in Bosnia, and we actually helped each other out with our

11     work.

12        Q.   So there is no one who is alive today who could confirm what you

13     said here about these two meetings, the one at the municipal building and

14     the one at the mine?

15        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  I did not look for whether anyone

16     was alive or not today, but that is the result or the consequence of most

17     of these people having been killed at the camps.  Also, they're of the

18     age when death is not so far away, and in any case, I'm very sorry about

19     Mr. Boro Grubic.  He was a very good friend of mine and a close

20     associate.

21        Q.   And he was a guard in Trnopolje; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  At first, let me just elaborate a bit.  At first, Mr.

23     Boro Grubic was a member of the Patriotic League and he was against any

24     ethnic divisions in Prijedor; however, when some politicians, Serb

25     politicians, put pressure on him, he had to accept what was offered and

Page 13239

 1     he even accepted being a guard at Trnopolje for a while.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sivac, please take a look at 65 -- P1378, actually.  Exhibit

 3     P1378.

 4             This is an article -- it isn't easy for anyone; that's the title

 5     of the article.  Could you please tell me this.  You said in answer to my

 6     question in a Banja Luka paper you read something about an alleged

 7     assassination attempt on Mr. Zupljanin's life?

 8        A.   Well, I think I recall that.  It was reported in the Banja Luka

 9     press.

10        Q.   And you said that you recognised Stojan Zupljanin because he gave

11     some interviews about events in Kotor Varos?

12        A.   Well, no, I did not explicitly mention Kotor Varos.  I said that

13     I remembered his statements on television at that time and earlier when

14     he talked about the general security situation in the Serbian Bosanski

15     Krajina and the problems that they were facing and so on.  But

16     specifically the first time that I saw him on television, I can't really

17     say when that was.

18        Q.   Mr. Sivac, please take a look at this article and then at the

19     bottom you will see where mention is made of the people who visited

20     Prijedor and the portion where Stojan Zupljanin's name is mentioned.  It

21     says:  Stojan Zupljanin, the chief of the Banja Luka CSB, who an earlier

22     time by a group of 500 Muslim extremists, led by Hamid Ergovic [phoen],

23     Asif Kapetanovic, [indiscernible], Mirzad Mujadzic, and other extremists

24     from Prijedor, prepared a fiery welcome.

25             Now, is the source of information that you had for that

Page 13240

 1     assassination attempt this particular article?

 2        A.   No.  I think I read about this in Srpski Glas, that was the name

 3     of the paper.  That's a Banja Luka paper and it was published there, but

 4     I think it was also broadcast on Serbian television as a news item.

 5        Q.   Now please take a look at the second column at the bottom.  It

 6     says:  "Because of a misconception that they had accepted the Serbian

 7     state and the Krajina AR, 55 of our men in Kotor Varos were killed and

 8     the Green Berets from Vecici were proud that they were the ones who

 9     killed Stevilovics [phoen]."

10             Now isn't what you said about Mr. Zupljanin, isn't that based on

11     this article that you had occasion to read?

12        A.   No.  Let me explain.

13             It was not like that.  It was based on a news report and the

14     statements made by Mr. Zupljanin on Serbian television at the time.  And

15     if you wish, you can ask for this video footage from the archives of the

16     Banja Luka television.  I'm sure they have a lot of that footage in their

17     archives.

18        Q.   Mr. Sivac, let me complete this part of my examination.

19             When you were in Prijedor, before you were arrested, you had

20     never seen Mr. Stojan Zupljanin in these -- at these places where you say

21     you did?

22        A.   No, I did not see him myself.  Not in real life.

23        Q.   Nor did you see -- nor did you personally see any of the other

24     men that you mentioned here that they were there allegedly?

25        A.   Which people did you mean?

Page 13241

 1        Q.   Well, Simo Brdjanin, Vukic, I'm talking about the

 2     April/May events?

 3        A.   Well, I met Simo Drljaca on a daily basis.  He was a good friend

 4     of mine.

 5        Q.   Yes, but I'm referring to the meetings that you described, did

 6     you see them there?

 7        A.   Well, no, not at the meetings because we were not allowed to

 8     attend these meetings.  These were closed-type meetings.

 9        Q.   I apologise to the interpreters.  I will have to repeat my

10     question and I will slow down.

11             So, I am asking you about these three meetings that you mentioned

12     earlier.  In other words, the meeting at Prijedor municipal building, the

13     Ljubija mine in Prijedor, and the meeting at Kozarac.  You did -- you

14     personally did not see any of the participants of those meetings at the

15     time when those meeting were held; correct?

16        A.   Well, no, the first meeting was almost an underground type of

17     meeting because the -- the one at the municipal building.  It was very

18     confidential.  The second meeting was also confidential.  And the third

19     meeting where we received information from our colleagues that the

20     political delegation from Banja Luka and Mr. Zupljanin went to Kozarac to

21     try to convince the police and the political leadership in Kozarac to

22     acknowledge and accept the situation and the takeover of power.

23        Q.   Mr. Sivac, excuse me for interrupting, but my question referred

24     to specifically -- it was a simple question.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please do not overlap.  And as you see on the

Page 13242

 1     screen, the court reporter is asking that you slow down.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, I apologise.  Can you please just

 4     answer my question and when you and I talk at the same time, when we

 5     overlap, then the record does not clearly show what is a question and

 6     what is the answer.  So could you please try to answer -- to be as brief

 7     as possible in your answers, just answer with yes or no, if you can.

 8             So all the three meetings that we mentioned, you personally did

 9     not see either Stojan Zupljanin or any of the other individual who are

10     said to have attended those meetings.  You did not see any of them

11     personally; correct?

12        A.   That's correct, I did not.

13        Q.   And you have no first-hand information about the actual attendees

14     of those meetings.  You only actually learned of that later on from the

15     sources that you mentioned?

16        A.   Yes.  The information that we obtained from the sources that we

17     used for our newspaper reports.

18        Q.   I am finished with this topic.  Let me ask you something about

19     the events which came about after the 30th of April, 1992.

20             In your previous testimony in the Stakic case, you mentioned an

21     event which you called an attempt to liberate or an attack on Prijedor of

22     the 29th of May, 1992.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   It took place early in the morning, when a unit led by Slavko

25      Acimovic tried to take over Prijedor; correct?

Page 13243

 1        A.   It was no unit.  It was a group of Prijedor residents who had to

 2     leave their homes in the first wave after the Serb takeover, because they

 3     refused to respond to a call-up, to go and wage war in Croatia.

 4             Immediately after the 30th of April, when the Serbs took over

 5     power in Prijedor, the first to be targeted were such people.  Explosive

 6     devices were thrown on their houses, and those people simply had to get

 7     away from their homes.

 8        Q.   And they attempted to take back Prijedor; correct?

 9        A.   Mr. Krgovic, I'm sorry, and I apologise to the Judges, but this

10     would require much elaboration.  In my research work, I concluded this.

11     Everything that had to do with this so-called occupation of Prijedor, as

12     Serbs would have it, and I call it the liberation of Prijedor, was a

13     masquerade.  It was prearranged in the Prijedor barracks where there were

14     certain military intelligence officers who had simply arranged with a

15     group of people from the Slavko Acimovic group for it to be done, to have

16     an alibi, to have a reason to ethnically cleans Prijedor and establish

17     camps.  It was all prearranged.  I have documents to prove that and I

18     hope that in the subsequent proceedings I would be able to put forth for

19     this Tribunal to be able to see the means used by the Serb authorities in

20     Prijedor.  That is why precisely, precisely why, I'm writing this book

21     called: Serb falsification or how to counterfeit history.

22        Q.   In the book you referred to, you describe in detail the structure

23     of the units led by Slavko Acimovic.  You explain in detail the axes of

24     attack, the types of weapons and events surrounding the liberation

25     attempt in Prijedor?

Page 13244

 1        A.   Yes.  I received that information from people who directly

 2     participated.

 3        Q.   You were also able to observe parts of that operation from your

 4     window in Prijedor?

 5        A.   Yes.  I could see parts of it from my apartment in Prijedor.

 6        Q.   And you certainly know that the plan was to destroy the large

 7     gasoline terminal in Brezicanin and to destroy an overpass and a bridge

 8     over a nearby river; is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  You are misquoting, Mr. Krgovic.  When I discussed this with

10     the people from this group who were forced to assemble in a certain part

11     of Prijedor municipality, they told me that their intentions at first

12     were to try and breakthrough to Bihac and the Bihac area, which was under

13     B and H army control, and to also potentially try to launch a number of

14     smaller diversions, in order to retaliate against the Serbs for the

15     things they had done in Prijedor.  I also said a moment ago that in the

16     Prijedor barracks there had been a morbid plan prepared for the group

17     from Kurevo to be brought at any cost into Prijedor for it to be

18     destroyed and, indeed, it was so.  In that group, they had a few of their

19     own men, a few moles who is had come to the Prijedor barracks, from

20     Radmilo Zeljaja, Radovan Jajic and others, including Simo Drljaca, they

21     were informed and briefed on how and what to do in Prijedor in order to

22     follow it up with the ethnic cleansing of Prijedor and destruction of

23     property, as well as rounding up people to be taken to camps.  They only

24     needed an excuse which was provided by the group's incursion into

25     Prijedor.  It was all arranged with some people from Slavko Acimovic's

Page 13245

 1     group.  A deal was struck between them and some officers in the Prijedor

 2     barracks.

 3        Q.   In your book you quote a friend of yours who explained these

 4     events to you.  You called this part of the book:  Fighter Mirzad's

 5     diary.  Do you recall that?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   When you describe the composition of that unit, you refer to four

 8     groups.  The first group was in the area of Ljubija, headed by

 9     Kemal Alagic and Captain Sead Halilovic.  Do you recall that?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   The second group, in Zegar Polje [phoen] and Tukovo, headed by

12     Slavko Acimovic.  That's the person we have been referring to; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   A third group in the area of Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Biscani led

15     by Lieutenant Muhic; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The fourth group in the area of Skela, Raskovac, Puharska headed

18     by Mesic, as well as Hadzija, and Nenad Babic; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The plan was -- well, Mesic went to Prijedor and agreed with the

21     residents of Puharska that once the group is inside Prijedor attacking

22     certain facilities that 500 men would join them from Puharska?

23        A.   Yes.  That was agreed.  However this was just a farce, as I said

24     already, for Slavko and other groups to have an excuses to go into

25     Prijedor.  Izmet Mehic, Hadzija, was a Trojan horse in that operation.

Page 13246

 1     He was the person who had met with Simo Drjlaca, Radmilo Zeljaja and

 2     Radovan Arsic met in the Prijedor barracks.  He arranged that

 3     Slavko Acimovic and his group be led towards Prijedor.

 4        Q.   On the 30th of May, 1992, Slavko Acimovic's group split into

 5     several groups and took different routes.  The first group went towards

 6     the football stadium going through Sredice; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, more or less.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 1P015266 to

 9     the witness.  P015266.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the transcript, it should be

11     Slavko Ecimovic rather that Slavko Acimovic.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] This document was introduced by the

13     Prosecutor.  It's a map.  It's P015266.  I hope I'm quoting it correctly

14     from the transcript.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could this please be corrected.  It

16     is it Ecimovic not Acimovic.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  I think the counsel is actually adding an extra

18     number.  It should be five digits instead of six.  Thank you.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  I believe it is P1526.  I only know it is not double

20     6 at the end.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a map of Prijedor.  You have a marker.

23     Please indicate the axes where this group crossed over the Sana, led by

24     Babic.  Can you indicate that?

25        A.   What is the question?

Page 13247

 1        Q.   This group with Sadik Mehcic [phoen], where did it cross the Sana

 2     river at Sedice [phoen]?

 3        A.   Well, this is a very low detail map.  There is no river Sana,

 4     there but this is the general area.

 5        Q.   Please mark that with a 1.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   The second group, Muhic's group, that wept across the bridge to

 8     the municipality and the mine?

 9        A.   Well, there is no bridge here or the street which leads up to it.

10        Q.   What is the approximate route?

11        A.   The only thing about Prijedor I have is the name of it.  I would

12     have to a detailed map of the town then could I mark it.  This is

13     completely inadequate.  It would serve nothing but to confuse.

14        Q.   Can you only mark the axes where they started from?

15        A.   They all crossed the Sana, and there is another important thing I

16     need to say.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If this is of any importance to your case, I

18     suggest we find a better and a more detailed map.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I'm looking for

20     it.

21        Q.   The one I have is also very poor, in terms of details.  But --

22     well, let's me ask you this verbally, just for the sake of leaving us a

23     background to the attack.

24        A.   I would be more than happy to indicate it on the map, but I

25     really can't use this.

Page 13248

 1        Q.   Perhaps the Prosecutor has a more detailed map.

 2        A.   I have one in my hotel room.  Had I known that these will be the

 3     questions, I would have brought it with me.

 4        Q.   Do not mention that you have anything in your hotel room.

 5     Otherwise we will see you back in a less than a year.

 6        A.   Well, that seems to be my destiny.  I seem to have a finger in

 7     every pie.  I just keep changing my suits.

 8             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, there's a map which is part of

 9     Mr. Sivac's 92 ter package.  The 65 ter number it's been given is 10446,

10     and perhaps that may suit their purposes.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could have that exhibit.

12             I think it is number 8 in the package.

13        Q.   The first thing I asked you about, the group which crossed the

14     Sana, next to the leather manufacturing facility.

15        A.   Well, it's somewhere just following the Ada.  Somewhere here.

16     Yes.  That's the number 1.

17        Q.   The second group, with Lieutenant Asim Muhnic [phoen] crossing

18     the bridge at Berek?

19        A.   This is it, this arch here.  There are two bridges, actually.

20     One is here and the other on the other side.  I think they went through

21     the old town following this route towards the technical school.

22        Q.   And they eventually reached the reserve officers' hall?

23        A.   Yes, they were aiming for the high school centre in Prijedor.

24        Q.   And they reached the SUP and municipal building?

25        A.   Yes, from the back.  They reached the museum which is to the side

Page 13249

 1     of the SUP building.

 2        Q.   Can you mark that?

 3        A.   This is the SUP.  It says so.

 4        Q.   Put a 3 there.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And the third group led by Kemal Divljak went across Visici Most

 7     eventually reaching the red sky-scraper.

 8        A.   Yes.  It's in the periphery of town.  This is Lukavica and radio

 9     Prijedor.  I think it is here somewhere.  This is not the best map.

10        Q.   Put a 4 there.

11        A.   They reached Lukavica.  They never reached the radio station

12     building.

13        Q.   The group led by Slavko Ecimovic crossed the Visici Most and

14     reached the Prijedor Hotel?

15        A.   Yes.  This is the bridge and this is the Prijedor Hotel.  That is

16     number 5, I think, right next to the Sana river.

17        Q.   Please put a 5 a bit below.

18        A.   Well, the marker is a bit thick.

19        Q.   They took up their positions and that's when the clash erupted.

20     However, when the army started using heavy weaponry in a counter-attack

21     attempt, they withdrew and the army were in front of the SUP and the

22     municipal building.

23        A.   Yes.  The attack lasted for about half an hour.  Perhaps to

24     reiterate for the Judges this had been rearranged from certain forward

25     positions in the sky-scrapers in Prijedor, there were sniper shooters,

Page 13250

 1     sharpshooters on duty there, and the night before there event, all of

 2     them who could observe this part of town were withdrawn.  There's even a

 3     written order by Simo Drljaca for them to be temporarily removed from

 4     their positions in order for this -- for these groups to go into town as

 5     far as possible so that the Serb army and police could destroy them.

 6        Q.   The group headed by Slavko Ecimovic managed to destroy a position

 7     at Rebar and they set fire to the Prijedor Hotel?

 8        A.   Yes, but only the ground floor, the reception area.  In the

 9     Prijedor Hotel, much before that, there were military police forces that

10     had been brought in.  The notorious Martic's Men, and they were

11     accommodated in that hotel.

12        Q.   And what about the group that had managed to get through to the

13     underpass but they did not actually succeed in that because those 500 men

14     from Puharska did not join them; correct?

15        A.   Well, no.  Because two days earlier the Serbian television, and

16     have I that newspaper article as well, reported where the people from

17     Puharska and Kevljani and who were at barracks, they agreed to

18     voluntarily surrender their weapons and the weapons that had been issued

19     to them by the municipal Secretariat of Territorial Defence as well as

20     the -- their own weapons that they had, meaning pistols and rifles,

21     hunting rifles and so on, all of this was just a farce.  This was just a

22     way for Slavko and his men to be brought into Prijedor and destroyed.

23     And then the tensions among the Serb population increased and they all

24     started on their move on Prijedor.

25        Q.   And on that occasion during this attack on the police station, a

Page 13251

 1     lot of people were killed there; correct?

 2        A.   Well, no, that's not correct.  This was written in a way that

 3     would actually romanticise a bit the role of those people who had the

 4     courage to actually fight on that occasion.  But I think there weren't so

 5     many killed, there were just a few people who got killed on this

 6     occasion.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, as interesting all of this is from a

 8     historical point of view, I'm just a bit uncertain about the relevance to

 9     this trial.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now move to

11     the substance.  In fact, because the witness talked about this in the

12     Stakic case and he mentioned the events in Stari Grad and the shelling of

13     Stari Grad, my intention was to put these two events into context,

14     because this is an intro to the attack on Prijedor itself.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was no attack on

16     Stari Grad by this group.  They just passed through Stari Grad to reach

17     those positions and then they withdrew across the Sana and into the

18     woods.  And as for the reprisals, I have already said that the Serbian

19     authorities in Prijedor actually took advantage of this event and accused

20     the Muslims of trying to massacre -- to commit a massacre in Prijedor as

21     had happened during World War II in order to actually mobilise the Serb

22     population, and on that morning all the Serbs actually appeared dressed

23     in uniforms and armed and they were ready to fight.

24             MR. KRGOVIC:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sivac, could you please show us where

Page 13252

 1     Prijedor is on this map?

 2        A.   Well, I can't quite clearly show that part, the Stari Grad part,

 3     but it's approximately here in this area where I put the circle.

 4        Q.   And is this where these men came from?  That was the axis of

 5     attack; correct?

 6        A.   Well, no just one group.  You mentioned the Kemal Divljak group,

 7     but Slavko Ecimovic reached the check-point at the bridge over Sana, and

 8     disarmed the people there and reached the hotel.  So only Kemal Alagic

 9     Divljak's group actually went through the Stari Grad area.

10        Q.   And as they were withdrawing, they were withdrawing and fighting,

11     they were shelled by the Serb forces and they withdrew across the river

12     and into the woods; correct?

13        A.   No, that's not correct.  They crossed the Sana.  Actually they

14     were completely broken up.  There was no general axis along a route which

15     they withdrew.  They were completely in disarray.  They were in various

16     parts of Prijedor, the parts towards the radio station, some -- some men

17     were withdrawing that way.  A part of the men were with withdrawing

18     towards Nahija [phoen] downstream of Prijedor because the Serb artillery,

19     around 5.00, began a fierce shelling from the airport and other

20     elevations, the hills around the town, where the artillery had been

21     positioned a few months earlier.  They started their shelling of

22     Stari Grad, Zagrad, portions of Skela for the most part the areas

23     populated by Muslims for the most part.

24        Q.   And the fiercest fighting on that morning were -- was in

25     Partizanska Street and the Lukavica cafe; correct?

Page 13253

 1        A.   Well, yes.  That's where a group headed by Mesic, Hadzija, who

 2     was the Trojan horse acting for Simo Drljaca and Radmilo Zeljaja.  They

 3     arrived there and they barricaded themselves in that inn and then the

 4     specials, led by Zoran Karlica, a fighter from Slavonia, a very

 5     well-known local man from Prijedor arrived there and he dispersed or

 6     destroyed the group of -- this group in the inn and they captured

 7     Slavko Ecimovic alive.

 8        Q.   And this Mesic, Izet, was killed on that occasion; correct?

 9        A.   Well, I have statements that were compiled by the Serb state

10     security after these events where the people who had killed Izet Mesic,

11     Hadzija, said that he had told them that he had carried out his task and

12     that he should be taken to the barracks to see Zeljaja.  However, they

13     did not believe him.  They did not believe that this was a prearranged

14     deal, that it was part of their agreement and they killed him on the

15     spot.  And as for Slavko Ecimovic, he was captured alive, and he was

16     later assassinated in Omarska camp.  And in reprisal for this, his

17     neighbours, Serbs who were all armed went to his home where they killed

18     his mother, father, brother, sister-in-law.  And, to this day, these

19     people are free and they freely walk around Prijedor and no one was

20     brought to justice for that.

21        Q.   And these groups in disarray they were going back the same way

22     across the Sana, right, they were returning the same way?

23        A.   Well, no.  There was a general disarray.  As I said, they were

24     just trying to get away and cross the river Sava.  And as for the other

25     group, they were along the -- they went -- they tried to withdraw along

Page 13254

 1     the left bank of the Sava.

 2        Q.   But you saw Serb tanks opening fire on them while they were

 3     withdrawing?

 4        A.   Well, no I saw artillery pieces and cannon that were positioned

 5     in the vicinity of my own house.  They were opening fire on Stari Grad,

 6     the old part of town, and the Muslim parts of Prijedor.

 7        Q.   Is that where the attackers were coming from?

 8        A.   Well, no.  There were no more attackers.  They were active some

 9     hour, hour and a half in Prijedor and then they were broken up and they

10     withdrew to the other side of the river.  There were no more attackers.

11     Do you understand, Mr. Krgovic?  This is just --

12        Q.   I apologise for interrupting, but I'm just asking you about their

13     axis of operation.  Was the fire opened on those axes where the attackers

14     had been advancing from?

15        A.   Well, no, no, they opened fire on parts of the town that had

16     nothing to do with these attackers.  The only thing was that these areas

17     were settled -- the people living there were Muslims and Croats.

18        Q.   Could you show us those parts of town?

19        A.   Well, Stari Grad was completely deployed.  A 400-year-old part of

20     town, some houses there were completely destroyed.  First there was

21     looting, and then they were shelled and then they were torched and

22     finally destroyed.  So this portion here, the part called Zagrad on the

23     left bank of the Berika rivulet and parts of Partizanska Street were

24     under attack by the Serb artillery and the Serb army.

25             On the second day, they began with a wholesale destruction of

Page 13255

 1     historic and religious monuments in Prijedor in old town and so on.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm asking you about this.  Whether you agree with me when

 3     talking about the areas that the Serb artillery opened fire.  This was

 4     actually those areas where the attack had come from; correct?

 5        A.   Well, no that is not correct.  They only used that part, the

 6     Stari Grad part of Prijedor to pass through there.  They did not engage

 7     the enemy there.

 8        Q.   But the Serb artillery and the Serb fire was opened on the areas

 9     through which they actually moved and tried to -- to withdraw?

10        A.   Well, no, that is not correct.  The Serb artillery had precise

11     plans that had been drawn up much earlier.  I don't know wanted to

12     elaborate now.  But they had precisely prepared plans on what it was that

13     it had to be destroyed in case an attack was to occur.

14        Q.   Please, can you just show us the parts of town that were shelled

15     on the day of the attack.

16        A.   Well, Stari Grad, Zagrad and the Partizanska Street.

17        Q.   Could you please just mark in red -- I think have you a red

18     marker there.  All right.  If you don't, just mark those parts that you

19     were just mentioning.

20        A.   Well, here, this part and then this part, along the Sava

21     [as interpreted] river, and in the very centre of town, we called it

22     Carsija, old town, where there were old shops, hundreds of years old,

23     with old -- old craft shops of Muslims and Croats held by Muslims and

24     Croats.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please enter this into

Page 13256

 1     evidence and get a number assigned.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D96.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic again before we proceed, I must admit

 5     I still fail to see how all of this, as interesting as it is, is relevant

 6     to the charges raised against your client in this trial.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecution in

 8     their pre-trial brief charges my client as part of the JCE, a large-scale

 9     attack on Prijedor, among others Stari Grad and these other parts where

10     the fighting on the 30th of May occurred, and the Defence is trying to

11     put in context this attack and the response by the Serb forces or Serb

12     army.  But I will move on to that somewhat later.  I will ask about who

13     ordered the attacks and how it proceeded and so on, because it is the

14     Prosecutor's claim that this attack was completely unprovoked, that it

15     was a widespread attack on civilian, on a civilian population and this is

16     why I am putting these questions to the witness because he testified

17     about this aspect in the Stakic case but he did not fully explain the

18     entire situation, as it was.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well, I could see this coming from you as an

20     explanation as to why you think it would be relevant.  But I need not

21     remind you that tu quoque is not a legitimate Defence in these trials,

22     and therefore I don't think that -- that it makes much sense.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  That is not my

24     intention at all.  I'm merely drawing a context or -- for an attack and a

25     counter-attack.  It was a military operation carried out by local brigade

Page 13257

 1     commander by the name of Zeljaja, who had nothing to do with

 2     Mr. Zupljanin.  That was my line of questions.  We reached a moment of

 3     attack and we were about to discuss the participants in it.

 4        Q.   Mr. Sivac, this was all to draw certain context.  And you

 5     mentioned that the plan was arranged between Zeljaja and Hadzija.

 6        A.   And Simo Drljaca.

 7        Q.   Who commanded the artillery army units which shelled the old town

 8     and which carried out the attack?

 9        A.   I don't know.  I only know that they had been deployed much

10     before these events in Prijedor, after the Serb army withdrew from the

11     Croatian theatre.  Most of the arsenal of weapons was deployed around

12     Prijedor.  Prijedor was a majority Muslim town located at a very

13     important transit route between the Serbian Krajina and the Krajina in

14     Croatia.  It was along that route and that town had to be taken over at

15     any cost by the Serbs.  That's what Karadzic said on the 12th of May at

16     the well-known Assembly meeting in Banja Luka.  He ordered this to be

17     done to the Prijedor police and army leadership, that Prijedor needs to

18     be taken as -- as soon as possible.

19        Q.   What area of responsibility was this?  Of what brigade?

20        A.   That morning, when the fighting broke out there Prijedor, there

21     were basically all brigades there, which had to do with the Prijedor

22     Barracks.  There were members of the 5th Kozarac Brigade and the 34th

23     Motorised Brigade, some members of the Sana Brigade arrived to assist as

24     well as people from Bosanski Novi.  There was this notorious group called

25     Spare Ribs.  They committed atrocious crimes on the left bank of the

Page 13258

 1     Sava.  And they all co-operated with the Prijedor police led by

 2     Simo Drljaca, Dule Jankovic, Milutin Cadzo and others.

 3        Q.   Who commanded the 5th Kozara Brigade?

 4        A.   Pero Colic.  It was well-known for their crimes in Croatia.

 5        Q.   What about the 35th Motorised Brigade?

 6        A.   Well, it used to be the 343rd and then it was the 34th Brigade.

 7     I think Arsic and Zeljaja were commanders.  They rotated.  I know that

 8     Radmilo Zeljaja was basically the person in charge.  He was an

 9     intelligence officer with an intensive military intelligence background.

10     He was the main person in all of these events in Prijedor.

11        Q.   Further in your testimony when you spoke about another attack in

12     the Stakic case, you mentioned Hambarine.  You commented on a news

13     article from Kozarski Vjesnik.  Do you remember that?  You were shown

14     this by the Prosecution?

15        A.   Yes, it preceded the ethnic cleansing in Prijedor.  The Hambarine

16     events took place on 22nd of May in Hambarinsko Polje.  A civilian

17     vehicle was stopped carrying six well-armed Serb soldiers.  There was

18     still a decree in force at the time issued by the legal authorities at

19     the municipal level in Prijedor, stating that in the enclave where the

20     Muslims were in the majority, there had to be check-points formed which

21     were to serve to check any Serb soldiers who frequently tried to enter

22     the enclave drunk and to prevent them from doing so.  They were supposed

23     to hand over their weapons at such check-points and on their way out they

24     would be given their weapons back.  Although the Serbs had taken over

25     Prijedor by that time that vehicle was still stopped in Hambarinsko

Page 13259

 1     Polje.  The six drunk Serb soldiers in a single car caused an incident.

 2     The patrolmen at the check-point asked them to surrender their weapons,

 3     promising that they would return them once they came back.  However, the

 4     people in the vehicle opened fire and the result was two dead Serb

 5     soldiers and a number of wounded.  As for those manning the check-point,

 6     they also sustained some casualties.  There was number of wounded.

 7             The next day the Serb authorities seized that opportunity to

 8     announce over Radio Prijedor or to issue an ultimatum to the Hambarine

 9     residents to hand over Mr. Saliskovic, who had been an active-duty

10     policeman, who, on that day, manned the check-point alongside some

11     others.  Since that did not occur, on the 23rd, at 2.30 p.m., they used

12     long-range artillery from the Prijedor airport at Topica Brdo, which is a

13     feature, this artillery had come from the Croatian theatre, and they used

14     it to shell and destroy Hambarine.

15        Q.   Mr. Sivac, is it not correct --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, we have reached the point where we

17     would take the -- we would rise for the day.

18             How much longer do you expect that you would be?

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 20 minutes, Your Honour.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just an intervention in the transcript, 86, 17, I

21     believe it is recorded he said an ultimatum and that is not the word that

22     the witness used.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Should the -- should counsel ask the question again

24     to get the --

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, I just wanted to preserve the record so he can

Page 13260

 1     ask tomorrow or we can ask for some verification requests.  Thank you

 2     very much.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment until tomorrow.  I

 4     believe from the last thing I read that we're in this courtroom every day

 5     this week.  So we would resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

 6             I must tell the witness that notwithstanding what I said earlier

 7     about being completed today, unfortunately you have to return tomorrow.

 8     And therefore, I am to remind you that having been sworn as a witness,

 9     you can't have any communication with counsel from either side, nor can

10     you discuss your testimony with anybody outside the court.

11             So we continue at 2.15 tomorrow.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

15                           August, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.