Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13430

 1                           Thursday, 19 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.  Thank you,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution,

13     I'm Tom Hannis, along with Gramsci Di Fazio and Crispian Smith for the

14     Prosecution.  We do have a couple of preliminary matters we'd like to

15     raise before the witness comes in.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

17     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

18     Stanisic Defence.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Dragan Krgovic and

20     Igor Pantelic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Mr. Di Fazio has a matter concerning the witness.  I

24     have two other matters I was asked to bring to your attention.  One is

25     Mr. Olmsted has a witness scheduled to begin testifying next week on

Page 13431

 1     Wednesday the 25th, it's ST-210.  There's pending a motion from the

 2     Prosecution to change his mode of testimony from viva voce to 92 ter.  I

 3     think the Defence had filed a response today.  And we would ask your

 4     ruling on that at the earliest possible date so Mr. Olmsted can plan

 5     accordingly.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  And the second one is Ms. Korner has

 8     pending -- well, we have pending a motion to add an exhibit.  It's a

 9     video to be used with Witness ST-23 who will be testifying on

10     Monday, the 30th of August.  That's all I had.  Mr. Di Fazio, I think,

11     and Mr. Zecevic have something to discuss concerning today's witness.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  I don't know if Your Honours want to hear from the

14     Defence first, but let me outline basically what the problem is.  The

15     witness who's about to testify, Mr. Tihic, wrote a set of memoirs.  They

16     consist of about 66 pages of B/C/S typed memoirs, and they were not

17     disclosed to the Defence until earlier today, not long ago.  I can give

18     you an explanation of why or how this happened, and I accept -- I must

19     accept full responsibility for this error and I do.

20             The Defence -- some of the Defence lawyers are not entirely

21     unfamiliar with this document, in particular Mr. Zecevic and

22     Mr. Pantelic.  It's referred to in the cross-examination of this witness

23     from the Simic case, the testimony that we would hope eventually to

24     tender into evidence in this particular case.  The document is referred

25     there.  However, that being said, it doesn't change the fact that in this

Page 13432

 1     particular case we did not disclose the memoirs until just a short while

 2     ago.

 3             Accordingly, I don't know what the attitude of the Defence is to

 4     this situation.  I understand that the Defence would be willing to go as

 5     far as they can with cross-examination and would then require some time

 6     to look at the memoirs in order to be able to complete their

 7     cross-examination.  I understand that that's the situation.  And I'm sure

 8     that Mr. Zecevic can enlighten you further on that.

 9             The witness himself is here, is available, and would be available

10     tomorrow, but would have troubles returning -- in fact, can't return next

11     week and is heavily booked because of his -- he's a politician, of

12     course, and -- a high-ranking politician in Bosnia and is going to have

13     trouble getting back in the near future.  So certainly he can finish his

14     evidence tomorrow.  He can remain here overnight, and that's not a

15     problem for him.  I've already discussed that with him.  So I would ask

16     if the Defence can enlighten the Trial Chamber as to what consequences

17     this has for them.

18             I would hope that we can proceed as far as we can today and that

19     a short break today or overnight would enable them to be able to complete

20     their cross-examination.  And, of course, everything I say is subject to

21     the Trial Chamber's availability.  I'm mindful of that.  I'm not ignoring

22     that fact.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Di Fazio, about overbooking or heavily

24     booking, how are we booked for next week?

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  I don't have the trial -- the schedule of

Page 13433

 1     witnesses at my finger-tips.  I can certainly find out immediately --

 2     fairly quickly for you.  If you give me a moment, I'll make inquiries and

 3     see what the situation is.

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I will speak in Serbian.

 7             [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is a fact that at 12.30 today

 8     we received that statement which in the course of this witness's

 9     testimony in the Seselj case was extensively used.  I was truly unable in

10     such a short time to go through the statement, those memoirs, or the

11     things that the witness can remember that are contained in the statement.

12             I seem to recall somewhat parts of those documents from back in

13     2001, but since I haven't seen those documents for almost a decade now,

14     including the period when we were preparing for the cross-examination of

15     this witness, I'm truly unable to rely on my recollection only.  I would

16     truly need to read the document first.  I would much prefer if in any way

17     possible that my cross-examination not be interrupted, since what I

18     intended originally to ask the witness could be changed based on what I

19     find in the document that was disclosed to me at half past noon.

20             During an informal conversation we had before the hearing, I

21     realised that there are some problems in that regard.  I'm of course

22     willing to accept any ruling on your part.  I'm merely expressing my

23     preference.  Our clients, however, informed us that they also relied on

24     this Friday being a free day because they wanted to enjoy some of the

25     activities which they otherwise cannot when we sit in the afternoon.  I

Page 13434

 1     believe you're all aware of that.  Having in mind the needs of the

 2     Chamber, however, I will follow your instructions.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the -- before I hear -- I see

 4     Mr. Pantelic is on his feet, but two questions before I give the floor to

 5     Mr. Pantelic.  We have noted your preference, but it would probably, in

 6     terms of the efficient management of our time -- we would probably

 7     require you to at least begin.  But I do have a concern as to whether --

 8     if we do sit in the morning, whether you expect that you would -- and I

 9     know this is a somewhat difficult question to -- for you to respond to at

10     this point, not having digested the documents, but do you reasonably

11     anticipate that with the Court sitting tomorrow morning with a view to

12     completing this witness -- because we keep in mind the time constraints

13     of the witness, whether you expect that you would be -- whether you could

14     finish tomorrow morning?

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  And we would -- we would adjourn earlier today in

17     any event because we appreciate that we would -- you would need time to

18     deal with this.  But do you expect you could finish tomorrow?  That's the

19     question.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I -- Your Honours, thank you very much for your

21     full understanding of my situation.  But I do reasonably anticipate that

22     I would be able to analyse and read the document overnight and be

23     prepared for a cross-examination tomorrow.  And I will finish definitely

24     with the witness.  What I'm -- what I -- what my concern is is that I

25     might -- I reserved three hours for cross-examination -- or estimated

Page 13435

 1     three hours for cross-examination of this witness.  However, I might be

 2     much shorter if I would be able to have the whole picture.  I would

 3     have -- probably be shorter than three hours.  But I -- that is the part

 4     I cannot guarantee.

 5             Now, in this way, I might be repeating myself and posing the

 6     questions to the witness twice, today and tomorrow.  But if that is the

 7     preference of the Trial Chamber, I'm -- as I said, I'm perfectly willing

 8     to adhere to that.  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Pantelic.

11             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be brief.  I

12     just want to say something for the record.  This specific witness does

13     not testify to the municipality that is part of the indictment against my

14     client.  We may have a few questions, which is not the crucial point in

15     this point in time.

16             Since my learned friend Mr. Di Fazio mentioned that I was

17     probably familiar with these documents, I can only state for the record

18     that a decade later I have no clue what is in the document, as opposed to

19     the -- most of the witnesses of the Prosecution who seem to have a

20     fantastic memory, even 20 years down the road.  As opposed to that, I'm

21     afraid my memory is not as good.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Before we rule on this matter, the -- we are

24     reminded of what Mr. Zecevic has indicated as to the position of the

25     accused themselves, and the -- it would be helpful to us if counsel --

Page 13436

 1     well, counsel of course always speak on behalf of their clients, but with

 2     this latest development of which the accused would have just become

 3     aware, if perhaps both counsel could consult sotto voce with their

 4     clients and then let the Chamber know whether -- whether the accused

 5     would be willing to come in for a short period tomorrow -- tomorrow

 6     morning, a morning session, in order to complete this matter.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Shall we do that --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: -- right now in the courtroom?

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

12                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have consulted our

15     clients.  The problem was that Mr. Zupljanin has a religious ceremony

16     scheduled earlier in the morning, and just prior to that we had planned

17     to visit them at 10.00 in the Detention Unit.  We will try to reshuffle

18     that, but first we need to see with Mr. Zupljanin whether he can

19     reschedule as well for the afternoon.  In that case, I believe we could

20     sit for a shorter period of time in the morning.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Of course -- Mr. Krgovic, of course -- and

23     Mr. Zecevic, the -- of course the -- your clients are aware that they may

24     decline to be present.

25             But, Mr. Zecevic, what is your position?

Page 13437

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, my client's position is that he

 2     doesn't want to waive his right to be present because this is one of the

 3     witnesses from the municipality that he is charged with.  But

 4     understanding the difficulty which the Trial Chamber is experiencing due

 5     to this unfortunate situation, he's, of course, accepting to come

 6     tomorrow, as is Mr. Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  So both clients are basically understanding the

 9     situation.  They will appear tomorrow in the court.  Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Di Fazio, anything further on this issue?

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  Only to say that I'm extremely grateful to Defence

13     counsel for -- and the Trial Chamber for your understanding in this

14     situation.  I must accept full responsibility for this.  And I hope that

15     the arrangements will rectify my mistake.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

17             So the usher would escort --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Di Fazio, and on -- we have witnesses for

19     Monday.  I just want to make sure that we don't have a blank hearing on

20     Monday.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  No, no, we're full next week.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We're fully booked.

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  Fully booked.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 13438

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  First of all, do you

 2     hear me in a language you can understand?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your

 5     testimony.  You're about to read the solemn declaration by which

 6     witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out that

 7     the solemn declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the

 8     penalties of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to

 9     this Tribunal.

10             Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the

11     solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  SULEJMAN TIHIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.

17             And, sir, could you -- could we begin by asking you to state your

18     full name and full date of and place of birth.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Sulejman Tihic.  I was

20     born on the 26th of November, 1951, in Bosanski Samac.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And what is your ethnicity?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Bosniak.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your profession today?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My profession is -- well, I'm

25     currently the deputy presiding officer of the house of the peoples of the

Page 13439

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, sir.  And what was your occupation in

 3     1992?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was an attorney-at-law in

 5     Bosanski Samac.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Now, is this your first

 7     testimony before this Tribunal, or have you ever testified in any

 8     domestic criminal procedure about these matters, about the war?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have testified several times

10     before this Tribunal in various cases, such as Tadic, Simic, Seselj,

11     Milosevic, Simatovic, Stanisic, and this one of course.  I have not

12     testified on these matters before any domestic courts.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.  That means that you know how

14     things work here, I suppose.  You know that you will be asked, first,

15     questions by the Prosecutor, who called you as a witness; then there is a

16     cross-examination; and a re-examination; and eventually the Judges will

17     have questions of you.

18             You probably remember that these sessions take half a day, in the

19     afternoon from 2.15 till 7.00.  If it is in the -- a morning session,

20     which will probably be the case tomorrow, it would be from 9.00 to

21     quarter to 2.00.  And that these -- that there are pauses every -- more

22     or less every 90 minutes for technical reasons.  However, if for any

23     other reason you personally need a short break, please let us know and we

24     will accommodate you.  That's all I have to say.  Thank you very much.

25             And I will give the floor to the Prosecutor.

Page 13440

 1             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

 3        Q.   Sir, you just mentioned moments ago that you had testified in the

 4     Stanisic and Simatovic case.  Did that take place in February of this

 5     year?

 6        A.   I think so.

 7        Q.   In the course of preparing for that testimony in that case, in

 8     Stanisic and Simatovic, did you have occasion to review your testimony in

 9     the Simic case which you gave in September and November of 2001?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  It was quite a voluminous testimony which comprised,

11     I believe, a few hundred pages.

12        Q.   Yes, you have my sympathies.  Having reviewed that testimony in

13     February of this year, are you able to affirm the accuracy and

14     truthfulness of that testimony?

15        A.   Yes, I am.

16        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would you provide

17     the same answers and evidence?

18        A.   Yes, I would.

19             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, I'll be seeking the

20     usual orders, eventually.

21        Q.   In the Simic case, you described quite detailed your education

22     and the work that you'd been doing -- the sort of work you'd been doing

23     as a lawyer in Bosanski Samac right up -- up to 1992, and then you also

24     described your developing political career after 1992.  And you described

25     it right up until 2001.  And again this morning you just told the

Page 13441

 1     Trial Chamber that your position currently is that of deputy president of

 2     the BiH Bosnian parliament.

 3             I'd like you to fill in for the Trial Chamber, please, your

 4     career between 2001 and the present time in a fairly broad outline.  Just

 5     give the Trial Chamber a picture of what you've been doing, in effect, in

 6     the last decade.

 7        A.   In 2001, I was elected president of the SDA party.  In -- and I'm

 8     still in that position.  And I've been elected so far in three party

 9     congresses.  2002, I was elected member of the

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency.  In 2007, I was elected deputy speaker of

11     the house of the peoples of the Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament.  People

12     rotate in that function, taking turns every eight months.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And that's the position you continue to hold today?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  In your evidence from Simic, it's quite clear that

16     you are Bosanski Samac born and bred and you described -- you still have

17     continuing relations with the city and you go back there and you have

18     familiar there; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.  My family -- my extended family live in Bosanski Samac.  My

20     granddaughters live there, they attend school there.  And I go there

21     every other weekend.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to begin by showing you some maps, if I may.

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness please be shown 65 ter 10470.

24        Q.   Can you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I can.

Page 13442

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, is that a map of Bosanski Samac and the Sava River

 2     and surrounding towns and villages?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Okay.  There's -- two places in red are mentioned.  Firstly, if I

 5     may deal with one, Batkusa.  In your evidence, you described

 6     paramilitaries being flown -- arriving in Batkusa in a helicopter about

 7     11 or so days prior to the take-over in April in 1992.  Is that where

 8     the -- they were flying to, that place indicated there in red, Batkusa?

 9        A.   Yes.  I was told by -- this by a client of mine, when I was an

10     attorney, that there were some helicopters who landed there in Batkusa

11     from Serbia.

12        Q.   Thanks.  But that place -- we've got all your evidence concerning

13     that, thank you.  But that place there in red lettering in the map saying

14     "Batkusa," that's the place that you understand they landed at?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you describe in your evidence the notorious man,

17     the well-known man, Mr. -- nicknamed Lugar Slobodan Miljkovic.  And I --

18     it's not in -- it can't be in dispute that he was involved in a massacre

19     of people at Crkvina.  Do you see the place called Crkvina in red bold in

20     the map?

21        A.   Yes.  That was in May 1992.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, you're talking about the massacre that was in

23     May 1992; is that what you're saying?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  And the place marked in red in bold on this map that

Page 13443

 1     you see in front of you, that's the same Crkvina that you're talking

 2     about, the place that Lugar carried out his massacre?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  About how far is Crkvina from Bosanski Samac,

 5     approximately?

 6        A.   Five kilometres, five to six.

 7        Q.   Thanks.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender the map, if Your Honours please.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01544, Your Honours.

11             MR. DI FAZIO:

12        Q.   Can I just show you another map, please.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  65 ter number 10469, please.  Thanks.

14        Q.   Is that a map of -- a more detailed map of the township of

15     Bosanski Samac?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Thanks.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  I may need the assistance of the usher.  I'm going

19     to ask that the map be marked.

20        Q.   You gave extensive evidence in the Simic case concerning events

21     at the police station and the TO building, and it's clear from your

22     evidence that both those places are very close to each other, just across

23     a small, narrow road.  With a -- can you place a dot, a dot, in the part

24     of the Bosanski Samac town where the TO and the -- the TO and the police

25     station are located.  You can't be precise, of course.  It's not a highly

Page 13444

 1     detailed map.  But the approximate area.

 2        A.   Well, I can orientate myself pretty well.  It's here on the

 3     corner.  On the one side, you have the police station; and then on the

 4     other side of the road is the staff of the TO, Territorial Defence.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:  For the record, that looks like an "i" with a

 7     little dot at the top of it -- now a circle.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Okay.  Now -- don't touch the screen anymore, if you

 9     don't mind.  One more location in the town.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  I would like to have the counsel's indulgence.

11     If he can request the witness to remark the document --

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes, yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR: -- if he can mark it in red which is more visible.

14             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:

17        Q.   Help us out, Mr. Tihic, could you just put a dot, a dot, in the

18     location where the police station and the TO building are located.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Di Fazio, inasmuch as I understand you were

20     inviting him to mark something else, wouldn't it be more helpful if you

21     use numbers; 1 for the first marking and 2 for the second?

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  I was going to -- I'm happy to do that.  Thank

23     you.

24        Q.   You heard the Bench's suggestion.  Could you turn that into the

25     number 1, please, a small 1.

Page 13445

 1        A.   One.  And then right below is 2.  You just have to cross the

 2     road.  It's on the very corner there.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  So 1 is the police station, and the number 2

 4     represents the TO building; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And now, with a small number 3, could you please indicate

 7     the area of the town where the Mitar Trifunovic school is located.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you for doing that.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that

11     image.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 10469

14     shall be given Exhibit P01545.  Thank you, Your Honours.

15             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thanks.  I've finished with the map.  And I'd now

16     like another image or photograph to be placed on the screen if it could.

17     Could 3419.47 please be put up on the screen.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, counsel, can you please repeat the number

19     again, please.  Thanks.

20             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes, of course.  It's an aerial photograph, and

21     it's 3419.47.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry, counsel, can you please indicate if that

23     comes with a P prefix, or is that a 65 ter?

24             MR. DI FAZIO:  My information is 3419.47.  I can provide a hard

25     copy, if that's of any use.  Okay.  That's the one, yep.

Page 13446

 1        Q.   Is that Bosanski Samac?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Again, could you just circle two locations in that map, if you

 4     can.  Firstly, the TO and the police station, and then the

 5     Mitar Trifunovic school.  Do the police station and the TO building

 6     first, circle it, and mark it with a number 1.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You've marked 1 and 2.  Is 1 the police

 9     station and is 2 the TO building?

10        A.   And 3 is the school, the elementary school.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that photograph, please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 -- the marked portion of

15     65 ter 3419.47 shall be given Exhibit P01546.  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:

17        Q.   Incidentally, that's the Sava River there that you can see in

18     that photograph and across the river is Croatia; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  You can see the Sava River and then on the other side is

20     Croatia.

21        Q.   Thanks.  I'd like to show you a building, please.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  And can the witness please be shown the photograph

23     65 ter 3419.50.

24        Q.   When that has righted itself on the screen and you've had a

25     chance to look at it, can you tell the Trial Chamber what that place is.

Page 13447

 1        A.   This is the elementary school.

 2        Q.   What's the name of that place, that school?

 3        A.   Before the war, it was called Mitar Trifunovic, Uco.

 4        Q.   And the places that, just moments ago, you've marked as the

 5     Mitar Trifunovic school, is that the school that you were talking about

 6     earlier?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that image.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01547, Your Honours.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  Okay.  I think that's all we need of the school.

13        Q.   I'd like to show you another image, 3419.51.  What's the building

14     in blue with a flag out the front?

15        A.   That's the police station.

16        Q.   Now, you gave extensive evidence about your ordeal in the police

17     station and the TO building in the Simic case.  Is that the police

18     station where you were from time to time beaten and interrogated?

19        A.   Yes.  This is viewed from the street side.

20        Q.   Right.  Taken from the side where the TO building would be; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   All right.  Okay.  And if we can quickly show you one more image

24     of the front.

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  3419.52, please.  I should add that I will be

Page 13448

 1     seeking to tender both of these images.

 2        Q.   I don't think there's any doubt about it; that's the same place,

 3     right, just taken directly from the front, the police station?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. DI FAZIO:  Okay.  Can we give them exhibit numbers before we

 6     proceed.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 3419.51 shall be given

 9     Exhibit P01548, while 65 ter 3419.52 shall be given Exhibit P01549.

10     Thank you, Your Honours.

11             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thanks.

12             Next image:  3419.54, please.

13        Q.   What's that place?

14        A.   That is the same building, the police station, but viewed from

15     the courtyard, the police backyard, as it were.

16        Q.   It's the rear of the building, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If you just kept walking out from that back door, you'd

19     eventually hit the Sava River, wouldn't you?

20        A.   Yes.  It would be a brief walk, some 50 to 100 metres, and then

21     you would get to Sava River.

22        Q.   In your evidence, you describe being imprisoned in that -- in

23     that building.  Is the window -- sorry, do any of those windows -- is the

24     room where you were imprisoned in the police station depicted here in

25     this photograph?  Can you see it?

Page 13449

 1        A.   Yes, it is.  That's the window with the bars with mesh.  If you

 2     can see it, it's to the right side, right of the door.  There were two

 3     cells there.  They were 1 metre wide and perhaps 1.80 metres long.  There

 4     were benches there.  Nine of us sat and slept there.  And I spent ten

 5     days there.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And it's the only window that we can see with bars

 7     shown across it shown in that photograph.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  And if Your Honours please, I tender the

 9     photograph.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As P01550.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  And can -- one more:  3419.56, please.

13        Q.   Again, you can see that that's obviously the rear of the police

14     station.  Those garages that you can see there, were they there when you

15     were imprisoned?

16        A.   Yes, there were garages.

17        Q.   Do you know -- if you don't know, that's fine, but do you have

18     any information as to whether anyone was ever held there or not during

19     the time that you were imprisoned?

20        A.   I was not held there, but I know that other people were.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  And I tender that photograph.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01551, Your Honours.

25             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can we have 3419.57.

Page 13450

 1        Q.   What's the place that you can see in that photograph?  You can

 2     see a white car and a little courtyard.  What's in -- what building does

 3     the courtyard relate to?

 4        A.   That courtyard is part of the building of -- where the

 5     Territorial Defence is located.  On the right-hand side, you can see part

 6     of that building.  But these -- this gate was closed off.  You can see --

 7     you see where this -- in the front part there was a shop, and in the back

 8     there were warehouses where we were.

 9        Q.   Okay.  If you look at the photograph, if you were to enter that

10     courtyard as you're looking at the photograph, were the men imprisoned in

11     rooms on the left-hand side?

12        A.   Yes, on the left-hand side.  You can also see where the door is;

13     that's where they were kept.  And on the right-hand side, that building,

14     that's where the offices of the Territorial Defence staff were.

15        Q.   Could you just circle the door that led into the room where the

16     prisoners were kept?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that photograph.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of

22     65 ter 3419.57 shall be given Exhibit P01552, Your Honours.

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  One more photograph, please, of this place:

24     3419.58.

25        Q.   The place with the two windows, is that the TO building office or

Page 13451

 1     headquarters?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. DI FAZIO:  I tender that.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01553, Your Honours.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:

 7        Q.   I'd like to show you another aerial shot, please.

 8             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness be shown 3419.48.

 9        Q.   Have a look at that place at this road junction that you can see.

10     Do you -- firstly, do you know what that area is from looking at it?

11        A.   Well, this could be Crkvina.  That is the junction where one road

12     leads to Gracac, the other to Modrica.  So this is Crkvina for sure.

13        Q.   Focus your attention, please, on the building that you might say

14     is smack-bang in the middle of the photograph.  It's got a yard in front

15     of it, and you can see little cars, two white cars and a blue car and

16     then a little red car, right in the middle of the photograph.  Do you see

17     that?  What's that place?

18        A.   Yes, I do.  That's the place where the prisoners were killed, the

19     camp detainees, in May 1992.  I mentioned earlier that incident.  I

20     wasn't there, myself, but I was told by other people who were there later

21     on.

22        Q.   Killed by Lugar, Slobodan Miljkovic?

23        A.   Yes, Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar.

24        Q.   I'm sorry for my mispronunciation.

25             Circle the building, please, and then we'll tender that.

Page 13452

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MR. DI FAZIO:  I seek to tender it.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of document

 5     3419.48 shall be given Exhibit P01554.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:  I'm not sure if the witness has marked it.  I

 7     can't see it on --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  It had been marked.  I was just about to ask whether

 9     that had been removed from the screen, because what now appears is not a

10     marked copy.

11             MR. DI FAZIO:  I see.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Registrar, did we capture --

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm that we captured

14     the marked portion.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Okay.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you, I'm very grateful.

17             And the last photograph I want to use is 3419.61.

18        Q.   What's that place?

19        A.   Well, that is the same place that we saw in the earlier

20     photograph blown up.

21        Q.   The place at Crkvina?

22        A.   Yes.  This is just a blow-up of that earlier photo.

23        Q.   Just for the purposes of the record, that's Crkvina, the place

24     that you depicted in the previous aerial photograph?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 13453

 1        Q.   And in 1992, what was that place being used for, if you can tell

 2     us; if you don't know, that's fine.

 3        A.   Well, I know because the camp detainees who were kept there, they

 4     showed it to me, and this is where the crime was committed, when

 5     Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, killed some 16 men.

 6        Q.   Was that place being used as a warehouse back in 1992, other than

 7     the purposes you've mentioned?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  I mean, I think it used to be a warehouse.

 9        Q.   Mr. Tihic, thank you very much for answering my questions again.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Di Fazio --

12             MR. DI FAZIO:  I'm sorry, my mistake.  I forgot to seek the

13     production into evidence of that photo and I do.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01555, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic.

20        A.   Good afternoon.

21        Q.   We have known each other since 2001.  I don't know whether you

22     recall the Samac case against Simic.  Mr. Tihic, it is a fact, is it not,

23     that the town of Bosanski Samac is of some strategic importance for

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

25        A.   Yes.  The estuary of the Bosna River into the Sava River, the

Page 13454

 1     bridge itself, as well as certain mines.

 2        Q.   I asked you about this because of an adjudicated fact, which is

 3     P95, which has to do with the strategic importance of Bosanski Samac from

 4     the military standpoint.  Save for that aspect, it is geographically

 5     important for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the very reasons you have

 6     specified?

 7        A.   Yes, geographically speaking and in terms of traffic.

 8        Q.   It is a fact, is it not, that during 1991 there were weapons

 9     transport routes which, among others, included the routes from Croatia

10     across the bridge in Bosanski Samac?

11        A.   It's difficult to say, but I think that most of the bridges were

12     destroyed anyhow and there was only one left, although I cannot tell you

13     what things eventually crossed it.

14        Q.   Very well.  We'll get back to that again.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P544 --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  P1544.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is the environs of

18     Bosanski Samac.

19             Could the usher be so kind as to help Mr. Tihic to have something

20     marked in red on the screen.

21        Q.   Mr. Tihic, please put a number 1 next to the town of

22     Bosanski Samac.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   To the left-hand side and towards the middle of the page, we can

25     see Modrica.  Please write 2 next to it, if you can see it.

Page 13455

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   On the right-hand side, in the upper right corner, there is

 3     Orasje, where I would kindly ask you to put a 3.  Would you like them to

 4     zoom in?

 5        A.   Well, I can't see it right now.

 6        Q.   Orasje is right next to the Sava River.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Thank you very much.

 9             It is a fact that during 1992 this entire stretch shown on this

10     map, on the left-hand side of the Bosna River, was under the control of

11     the Croatian forces or the HVO?

12        A.   When?

13        Q.   In 1992.

14        A.   Odzak was for a while under their control, but not throughout

15     1992, if I'm not mistaken.

16        Q.   Can you tell us approximately at what time?

17        A.   In the first half of 1992 I presume.

18        Q.   Please draw a line next to the Bosna River to mark the left side,

19     the left bank, of the river which was under the control of Croatia -- of

20     the Croatian forces.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   I think the territory surrounding Orasje in early 1992 was also

23     controlled by the Croatian forces.  Do you know approximately how the

24     line ran?

25        A.   This is it more or less.  From Grebnice to Orasje.

Page 13456

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Across the Sava there's Croatia.  We don't even need

 2     to say that it was, of course, controlled by the Croatian forces.

 3     Towards the bottom of the map, what was the territory controlled by the

 4     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?  Can you tell us that, approximately?

 5        A.   I think we should go further down than what is shown on this map

 6     otherwise we can't see it at all.

 7        Q.   So below the edge of the map at the bottom?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Under the Dayton Agreements, Orasje became a separate

10     municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, but it had also been a separate municipality before that.

12        Q.   Very well.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document with

14     the markings made by Mr. Tihic.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 10470

17     shall be given Exhibit 1D00345.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Tihic, while we're still with this map, can you tell me this:

20     It is a fact, is it not, that for the most of 1992 or let's say as of the

21     beginning of the hostilities and until August or let's say summer of

22     1992, the road between Bosanski Samac and Modrica towards Doboj was cut

23     off in the area of Modrica?

24        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think that road was cut off.  In what

25     period of time?

Page 13457

 1        Q.   In 1992.

 2        A.   It depends what month we're talking about.  Perhaps after April,

 3     by which time I had been detained.  Before April, one could freely go to

 4     Sarajevo and back.

 5        Q.   You are aware of the fact that the road to Bijeljina was cut off

 6     at Brcko?

 7        A.   I -- I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   I do realise that this happened after you were detained.

 9             Sir, you are probably aware that while you were in

10     Bosanski Samac, from the area you indicated, from the area that was

11     controlled by the Croatian forces, Bosanski Samac was shelled by

12     artillery?

13        A.   While I was still free, it was not.  Before the attack, Samac had

14     not been shelled.  I was detained after the attack, and at that time

15     there were some military activities.  There was probably mutual shelling.

16        Q.   However, during your detention in Bosanski Samac, which was the

17     case for a while, you must have been able to hear artillery detonations?

18        A.   I do not recall that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Tihic, if I understand your testimony correctly,

20     as of 1990 you have been a member of the SDA party; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   After you became a member, you also became the president of the

23     SDA in Bosanski Samac.  When was that, approximately?

24        A.   I think in September 1991.

25        Q.   Very well.  When did you, Mr. Tihic, become a member of the

Page 13458

 1     Main Board of the SDA?

 2        A.   During the first party congress, which was held in 1990.  I think

 3     it was in late November.

 4        Q.   Very well.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you're moving on to something else,

 6     would this be a convenient point to take the break?

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Di Fazio, before the witness enters the

12     courtroom, am I right in thinking that there is, for the new material we

13     discussed in the beginning of this session -- this hearing, there's no

14     English translation for that?

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  No, we've got an English translation, and that's

17     been disclosed to the Defence.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

19             MR. DI FAZIO:  I found that after I found the B/C/S version --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

21             MR. DI FAZIO: -- or rather, following --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Will the Court have that today as well?

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  I can give that to -- how would you like it,

24     Your Honours, electronically or hard copies?  Whatever ...

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Whatever.

Page 13459

 1             MR. DI FAZIO:  I'll make arrangements.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may be of assistance, it has

 4     been uploaded by our staff, so probably it's already in the e-court.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Tihic, you told us that since 1990, that is, the first party

 8     congress, you were a member of the Main Board of the SDA; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You certainly know Mr. Hasan Cengic?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   Was he also a member of the Main Board, or what was his position

14     in 1991 in the party, if you recall that?

15        A.   He was probably a member of the Main Board.  He was one of the

16     founders of the party.  It is quite likely that he was a member of the

17     Main Board, although I cannot recall that with any certainty.

18        Q.   In any case, if our information is correct, he had his office in

19     the party headquarters in Sarajevo?

20        A.   No, he did not.

21        Q.   Can you tell us where his office was?

22        A.   He had a business of his own, and now he's a member of a -- of

23     the party board which comprises some 100 people.

24        Q.   In 1991 was he an active member of the party in Sarajevo?

25        A.   He was, although I don't recall his exact position.

Page 13460

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 2     1D180, which is an MFI document.

 3        Q.   I'm quite certain you can recognise Mr. Cengic's signature?

 4        A.   I really am not certain.  I don't think I could.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it in English,

 6     too.

 7        Q.   Sir, this is the cover letter of a document issued by the SDA, at

 8     least that's what the cover letter looked like back in 1991; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Such memoranda always contained another sign which was the

11     crescent moon, and I don't see it here.

12        Q.   Do you recognise this as Mr. Cengic's signature?

13        A.   I'm not certain.

14        Q.   Are you familiar with the stamp?

15        A.   Well, there were such stamps as this one.  It says

16     "SDA Sarajevo."  It is possible that this is the stamp, although I don't

17     know how exactly -- what exactly it looked like at the time.

18        Q.   If you recall, was the address of the party HQ was in

19     Marsala Tita Street 7A?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And that is the address you can see in the top right-hand-side

22     corner?

23        A.   Yes, and it still has offices there.

24        Q.   Sir, were you present at a meeting of the SDA on the 11th of June

25     in the police hall in Sarajevo?

Page 13461

 1        A.   If you could enlighten me by the agenda, I might be able to

 2     answer that.  I was at a meeting in the police hall, but I don't know

 3     whether it was on this date.

 4        Q.   At that meeting, the Council of National Defence of the SDA was

 5     established?

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 8     repeat the answer; we did not hear it.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you please repeat your previous answer because it was not

11     recorded.  My question was -- or actually, I was trying to jog your

12     memory by saying that at that meeting of the 11th of June, the

13     Council for National Defence of the SDA was established.  What was your

14     answer?

15        A.   I was not present at that council session.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, it's not clear to me from

17     the evidence, from questions or answers, what year we're talking about.

18     I assume from the fact the document was dated 1991 that that's the year

19     we're talking about, but it's not clear on the transcript to me.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] We're talking about 1991.

21        Q.   Sir, my question was whether you used this or similar type of

22     memorandum -- or, rather, were you informed, by virtue of such a

23     memorandum, of the establishment of such a council?

24        A.   I know that we were notified that we had to have our security

25     commissions within municipal party structures.  This is what I am aware

Page 13462

 1     of.  Whether it was written in this precise wording, that I don't know.

 2     But, in any case, I know we were busy establishing security commissions.

 3     Every municipal organisation within the party did so, and it is quite

 4     customary for all parties.

 5        Q.   So do you recall having received this document or not?

 6        A.   I don't.

 7        Q.   Mr. Tihic, it is a fact that in the area of the municipality of

 8     Bosanski Samac members of the Croatian people were arming themselves

 9     quite intensively in 1991 and 1992?

10        A.   The fact is that the Serbs were arming themselves the most.  They

11     received their weapons from the JNA; and as for the others, upon having

12     seen that the Serbs were arming themselves, they did the same in their

13     own ways.

14        Q.   Sir, do you recall that on the 26th of July, 1990, there was a

15     religious ceremony held in Domaljevac on the occasion of the festivity of

16     St. Anne.  In particular, members of the HDZ rallied, and this was

17     covered quite extensively?

18        A.   I was an attorney-at-law at the time, and I had some of my

19     clients in that village, so it is likely that I was in the area.

20        Q.   Do you recall that Croats were then putting forward the agenda

21     that Croats should seize certain portions of Bosnia-Herzegovina and join

22     with their motherland in order to have all the Croats in a single

23     country?

24        A.   I do not seem to recall that.

25        Q.   Do you recall that between the 1st and 3rd of February, 1992, a

Page 13463

 1     large amount of weapons arrived in the area of Odzak, whereupon it was

 2     distributed to the members of HDZ in the village of Prud?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Did you know that as early as August 1991 from Domaljevac there

 5     were more than 150 and 200 people from that village who were included in

 6     different paramilitary-type Croatian formations?

 7        A.   I didn't know that.

 8        Q.   Did you know that on the 8th and the 9th of September, the HDZ of

 9     Bosanski Samac transferred weapons from the territory of Croatia into the

10     village of Grebnice?

11        A.   I don't know that.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to make sure that there is no error in the

15     transcript, religious ceremony you talked about in Domaljevac, the

16     festivity of St. Anne, is that 1990, July 1990, or 1991?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  July 1990.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Then it's correct.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will now show you a document, 1D03-1307.

21     This is a regular report from the Croatian army command, Eastern Posavina

22     Operational Group, of January 4th, 1992.  It reads "Regular Report," and

23     then, among other, there is an underlined portion where it says that

24     certain dailies, including the Sarajevo "Oslobodjenje," and also the

25     Sarajevo TV and radio reported the news that in the municipalities of

Page 13464

 1     Derventa, Bosanski Brod, and Odzak, around 1500 Croats have been armed,

 2     mostly with automatic rifles, light machine-guns, anti-aircraft guns, and

 3     anti-tank weapons.  And in that context mention is made of some members,

 4     leading members, of the HDZ in various municipalities.  And according to

 5     this information, the weapons in question arrived from the other side of

 6     the Sava, in other words, from Croatia.  And it was also said that the

 7     army would take measures in order for these illegal weapons to be

 8     returned, and the dead-line of 48 hours was given.  And since from this

 9     we can see that this was published and broadcast, published in

10     Oslobodjenje and broadcast on Sarajevo TV and on the radio, I assume that

11     you're aware of these?

12        A.   Well, no, I don't.  There were all sorts of information coming

13     out, and they were really more like rumours.

14        Q.   Well, you see here in the last sentence it says:

15             "In that respect, the activities of the Croatian Democratic

16     Union, or, rather, the leaders of the HDZ from these villages are asking

17     the Main Staff of the Croatian army what they are to do if the army

18     begins confiscating these weapons."

19        A.   Well, I don't see that any mention here is made of

20     Bosanski Samac.  There's only mention of Derventa and Odzak.

21        Q.   Well, yes, but that's all in the same area; right?

22        A.   Well, yes.  I really can't recall.

23        Q.   On the next page, page 2.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just pull it up, please.

25        Q.   It says -- or, rather, this document was signed by

Page 13465

 1     Lieutenant Ivo Petric, the OG deputy -- the OG --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Commander.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   -- and it says that:

 5             "It is interesting to know that newspaper reports and the news

 6     carried by the television and radio in Sarajevo cited the Ministry of the

 7     Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina as the source of this piece of

 8     information."

 9             Does this help refresh your memory?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, sir, you must know about the establishment

12     of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13        A.   Well, I heard about it, but I did not take any part in it.  I

14     heard about it after the war.

15        Q.   I would like to show you a document, 1D001 [as interpreted],

16     dated November 16, 1990, entitled:

17             "Preparations and Organisation of the Patriotic League to Defend

18     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

19             1D00-0001.

20             Do you know anything about this document?  Have you ever received

21     a document of this nature?

22        A.   No.  Specifically, I don't know anything about this document, but

23     I do know about the establishment of the Patriotic League and so on and

24     so forth.  I know that there were such instances where people organised

25     themselves, because the -- all the military capabilities were on one

Page 13466

 1     side, so people organised themselves in order to defend themselves.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Now I would like to show you a document I'm sure

 3     you're familiar with.  1D03-4701.  This is an SDA document,

 4     Bosanski Samac SDA.  I don't have the date, but I imagine that you will

 5     remember this document.  This document from the Party for

 6     Democratic Action of Bosanski Samac is entitled:

 7              "Organisation and Method of Receiving, Transmitting, and

 8     Conveying Orders for Mobilisation."

 9             There is a date appearing in the English version.  I think it

10     says the 21st of May, 1992.

11        A.   Well, at that time, Samac had already been occupied.

12        Q.   Well, I assume that's the case.  It should be -- the date should

13     be earlier.  But tell me, do you know anything about this document?

14        A.   I can't really remember.  Can we see what's inside?

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Please -- can we please see the

16     next page -- or, rather, the third page.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this title is so pompous and

18     pretentious.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Sir, you can see on this document where it says -- where your

22     name appears as well.  It says Sulejman Tihic and Alija Fitozovic?

23        A.   I cannot see it.

24        Q.   Can you recall the document now?

25        A.   I don't remember this document, but I know that there was a

Page 13467

 1     commission which was busy working on these matters, and the objective was

 2     to try to prevent something, if that was possible at all, in view of our

 3     numbers, because we had a very small percentage of Muslims in

 4     Bosanski Samac.  There is mention made of couriers, and the purpose was

 5     to see if we can set up a warning system so that we have time to move out

 6     on time and shelter ourselves.  Now, we -- there were only about

 7     7 per cent of Bosniaks in that town, and there were -- the largest number

 8     was Serb and then Croatians, so we had to do something.

 9        Q.   Sir, you testified both in the Samac case and some other cases,

10     and it is indisputable that you were at the head of a security commission

11     or something to that effect of the party, and Alija Fitozovic, who was a

12     retired soldier who had military experience, he was the commander of that

13     same body?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

15     speak into the microphone.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a reserve junior officer in

17     Karlovac and so on.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise for interrupting, but the

19     interpreters are asking that you speak directly into the microphone

20     because they have a hard time hearing what you're saying.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So Fitozovic was a reserve officer, officer in reserve, and

23     therefore he had some military experience which qualified him for the

24     suitable person to be the leader of that staff; correct?

25        A.   Yes, he was an officer in reserve or a junior officer.

Page 13468

 1        Q.   Sir, this document, unlike what you told us a few moments ago,

 2     contains, on the following pages, on the next pages, it contains certain

 3     description of military formations and units.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page for the

 5     benefit of the witness.

 6        Q.   It says the engineering platoon and the commander was Atif Ratic.

 7     Do you know this man, Atif Ratic?

 8        A.   Yes, but that he was in charge of that platoon, I doubt it.  I

 9     don't know where that came from.  He was an inn keeper.  I don't know

10     what he was in the army.  I don't even know if he served in the army.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Could we see the page

12     with the ERN Y027-4523.

13             I'm told that this document was not uploaded as a complete

14     document by some kind of error, so I will revisit it tomorrow.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't even know if you

16     should ask me about this document.  Perhaps it would be a better idea to

17     ask Mr. Fitozovic, because our documents stayed behind, and anyone could

18     add whatever they wanted to.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Very well.  But, in any case, it is a fact, isn't it, that at one

21     point you established an armed unit composed of members of the Party of

22     Democratic Action in Bosanski Samac; correct?

23        A.   Well, I don't know what you mean by "armed unit."

24        Q.   Well, I will show you a document in a moment.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-2787.  Can we have that,

Page 13469

 1     please.

 2        Q.   Is this your signature on this document?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Do you recall, do you know, whose signature this was?

 5        A.   Well, I don't, but if you allow me to read, maybe I can deduce

 6     something from the content.  But certainly this is not my signature.  I

 7     know that some members of the SDA obtained weapons, that there was

 8     some -- there were some arms, and they were all to join the staff of

 9     Territorial Defence, because we were anxious about the possibility of

10     these weapons being used in an uncontrolled way and then creating a

11     problem.

12        Q.   Well, let's analyse this document.  It says the city command

13     Bosanski Samac, it has a signature and a stamp of the democratic action

14     party staff, and so on.  So did the Party of Democratic Action have a

15     city command or a town command?

16        A.   No.  But the intention was that whoever had and possessed some

17     weapons, that they should become members of the staff of the

18     Territorial Defence.

19        Q.   Here it says that the staff of Territorial Defence was

20     established according to the list enclosed, and your name appears on top

21     of the list.  Does that ring a bell?

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  If we can see the list, probably there was a

23     list of all those who were prepared to join the staff of

24     Territorial Defence thereby becoming part of the legal defence organs of

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's possible that I'm on that list.

Page 13470

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

 2     page 2 of this document.

 3        Q.   Is this your address, Vojvodjanskih Brigada 3?  Was that your

 4     address at the time?

 5        A.   Yes.  And now looking at this list, all of these people, the

 6     ranking members and the others, this is all a list of people who were

 7     prepared to place themselves under the control of the staff of

 8     Territorial Defence, or, rather, to join it, and a unit would be formed

 9     in that way.

10        Q.   Sir, it is not in dispute that these individuals who appear on

11     this list possess -- had weapons; correct?  You had a weapon, too.

12        A.   I don't know if they all had a weapon.  I don't know if every one

13     of them had a weapon, but some of them did and I did.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Where are we going?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just trying to explore, Your Honours, this

18     document, whether I can refresh the memory of this witness, because I

19     would like to tender this document in evidence.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For what reason?  I mean, what -- are we going in

21     the direction of tu quoque?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, we are not going in the direction of tu quoque

23     at all.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13471

 1        Q.   Mr. Tihic, this document shows 212 names.  I suppose that you

 2     have been shown this document already in some of the earlier cases.  Does

 3     this help jog your memory?

 4        A.   Well, I think that's a large number of names, and I don't really

 5     trust that that's a correct figure.

 6             Therefore, I don't even know if this document is authentic and

 7     whether it was in fact an attachment to the document that you've just

 8     shown me earlier, because I doubt that there were 200 people on a list of

 9     that sort.  Maybe a shorter list, but not one numbering 200 people.

10        Q.   Well, I propose we do this:  I will ask my associates to make

11     xeroxed copies of these documents, because we have to come back again

12     tomorrow, and then perhaps you can take a look at those documents

13     overnight and -- which might help refresh your memory, and then I will

14     put some questions to you tomorrow about some of these documents.

15        A.   Well, that's fine.  But this first document, that was not my

16     signature on it.  And as for these lists, I don't mind.

17        Q.   It's all right, Mr. Tihic.  I will give you an opportunity to

18     answer my questions relating to these documents that I will hand-over to

19     you later this afternoon.

20        A.   Very well.

21        Q.   Mr. Tihic, tell us, please, you know that the Assembly of the

22     Serbian autonomous district was established on the 11th, in

23     November 1991?

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's document P1353.18.

25        Q.   Mr. Tihic, could you please repeat your answer into the

Page 13472

 1     microphone because it wasn't recorded.

 2        A.   Well, yes, I know that the Serbian autonomous region of northern

 3     Bosnia was established in November 1991.

 4        Q.   Sir, let's try and put this in context.  This happened after the

 5     Assembly session in -- of October 1991 where the declaration on an

 6     independent Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was adopted and where the

 7     Assembly -- deputies of the Serb Democratic Party walked out of the

 8     session; do you remember?

 9        A.   Well, I don't.  But, yes, that was when it was established.  This

10     was the time when the Serbian autonomous districts were being

11     established, and this began even earlier on, before this one for northern

12     Bosnia.  I can't recall the exact date.  But this was in line with a

13     policy whereby there were parallel government structures being

14     established, parallel to the legal Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15     This was all illegal and unconstitutional.

16        Q.   Tell me, please -- I can show you a document, if you have doubts

17     about the date of this Assembly, that was on the 14th of October, 1991,

18     where this declaration was adopted.

19        A.   That's possible.  I did not deny that, but I can't really recall

20     the date myself.

21        Q.   For reference, may I just add that it's document 1392 -- 1D92.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D92.

24        Q.   Tell me, please, you mentioned that this process of forming

25     autonomous districts throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina was

Page 13473

 1     unconstitutional.  Isn't it true, though, that the declaration of the

 2     Assembly of October 14th, whereby members of one ethnicity were

 3     practically disallowed to vote, that this, too, was unconstitutional?

 4        A.   No, that's not true.  This was a decision adopted by the

 5     Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 6     where Bosniaks and Croats and Serbs voted.  So it was legal --

 7     constitution.  But here, mention is made, and it's only the establishment

 8     of a Serbian autonomous district of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is

 9     unique in the world where in a state only one people would establish

10     their own districts.  That's impossible.  That's unconstitutional totally

11     because there are three peoples there, three ethnicities, and it's --

12     this is completely unreasonable.

13        Q.   Sir, did you know that the SDA in Banja Luka made a statutory

14     decision insisting on the establishment of a certain municipality called

15     Stari Grad?

16        A.   I don't know.  It is possible, but I wasn't sufficiently senior

17     within the party to be -- know -- to know of that.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is 1D4.

19        Q.   Did you know that in the municipality of Kljuc at a session of

20     the Club of Deputies of the SDA and the MBO the new municipality of

21     Bosanski Kljuc was established?

22        A.   I'm not familiar with that.  I don't know why it was necessary.

23     It was not our policy to create new municipalities, and I highly doubt

24     this.  Besides, Kljuc was populated by Bosniaks mostly, so why ask for a

25     new municipality?

Page 13474

 1        Q.   It is dated the 30th of January, 1992.  I'm referring to a report

 2     about the meeting.  It is 1D03-4707.  Have a look.  It says

 3     Bosanski Kljuc municipality.  It says:

 4             "At yesterday's session of the SDA ..."

 5        A.   This is quite a strange body of text.  There's no heading, no

 6     paragraphs.  I don't know who did this; and if they did, it doesn't seem

 7     right.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If this is not tu quoque against the witness's

11     opinion that the creation of Serb autonomous regions was

12     unconstitutional, what is it then?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I would gladly explain, but

14     maybe the witness should be excused in that case.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could the usher please escort the witness out of

16     the courtroom.  Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness asserts

19     that the establishment of the Serb autonomous districts was

20     unconstitutional and illegal.  It is our assertion, which the witness

21     denies, is that it was a reaction to the unconstitutional and illegal

22     decision that had been made by the Assembly.  It is a fact and we are

23     trying to prove that all parties, that is to say the Muslims, Croats, and

24     Serbs, created their own autonomous regions and their own municipalities

25     in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991 and 1992.  I intend to show to the witness

Page 13475

 1     an instruction.  For your reference, it is 1D3.  It is an instruction of

 2     the SDA on how to divide municipalities up.  A local commune where

 3     Bosniaks were in the majority would separate from the rest of its

 4     municipalities.  This was no policy or no decision of the Serbs to create

 5     their respective autonomous regions.  This was simply a fact of reality

 6     which reflected what the other peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina did.  All

 7     the peoples in Bosnia made such statutory decisions about the way the

 8     republic should be organised.  In this case, it is certainly not a

 9     tu quoque approach of this Defence.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  While we're at it, Mr. Zecevic, you said - where

11     is it? - that about the Assembly of October 14th you said that members of

12     one ethnicity were practically disallowed to vote.  Are you referring to

13     the fact that the Serb delegates left the Assembly?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  The situation, Your Honours, was the following:

15     The president of the Assembly declared that the Assembly session was over

16     because of the certain dispute between the delegates.  After that, the

17     delegates of the Serbian Democratic Party left the parliament.  And after

18     they left the parliament it was unconstitutionally and not in accordance

19     with the law, the session was reopened, and the decision on declaration

20     of the independent Bosnia and Herzegovina has been brought -- brought up.

21     And we will -- we definitely intend in our Defence case to prove that

22     beyond a reasonable doubt.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, unless we -- the three of us have

Page 13476

 1     wholly missed the point, accepting -- taking on board everything you have

 2     just said, where does this then take us, having regard to the indictment,

 3     which, of course, is what we are about in terms of this trial, both what

 4     the Prosecution proves and what you are defending against?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I'm just briefly covering the general

 6     context, and I am about to move into the area which is directly connected

 7     to our indictment, namely, the role of the MUP, the Republika Srpska, the

 8     Crisis Staffs, and et cetera, and the crimes committed.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  You can move directly there, can't you?  The

10     background is -- there's no real dispute in terms of the course of events

11     and the legislative goings-on.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm afraid that I must disagree.  I think

13     there is a -- there is a deep dispute between the parties, on that part

14     of the general context.  And, Your Honours, I wanted to use the witness

15     because I assumed he, as a lawyer, the intellectual, the president of the

16     SDA, and the member of the Main Board of the SDA since 1990, to be able

17     to give us some of the documents which we didn't -- which we didn't

18     introduce through other witnesses which were not in a position to comment

19     that -- on that.  I tried with the witness, but he didn't -- he was

20     unable to comment on these documents as well.  So that is the situation.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, the fact that it is

22     tu quoque is really eloquently set out by Mr. Zecevic's own words.

23             "It's a fact that we're trying to prove that all parties, that is

24     to say, Muslims and Croats and Serbs, created their own autonomous

25     regions and their own municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991

Page 13477

 1     and 1992."

 2             And if you look at the previous cross-examination that preceded

 3     that on the issue of arms and arming, we never got to any point beyond

 4     evidence establishing or trying to establish that Muslims were arming

 5     themselves in Bosanski Samac.  Same is occurring here now with regard to

 6     the creation of these autonomous regions and self-governing regions.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I have a suggestion to make.  I think

 8     maybe it would be the best -- the best that we adjourn for the day now

 9     and continue tomorrow.  I believe I have one and a half hours more with

10     the witness, and that would be something -- the area that I'm going to

11     cover is going to be much more related to the indictment directly, as I

12     understand the Trial Chamber would appreciate.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, we agree with your suggestion, that

15     your cross-examination be suspended at this point.  But before we take a

16     decision as to whether to adjourn, we'll inquire as to whether counsel

17     for - thank you - counsel for Mr. Zupljanin would wish to use such of

18     today as can be practically used.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand.  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic -- Mr. Krgovic.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have cross-examination for this witness.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Pardon me?

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have cross-examination for this witness.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I see.  Thank you.

25             Could we have the witness back into the court, please.

Page 13478

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Tihic, we have invited you back into the

 4     courtroom in order to formally take the adjournment.  We are about to

 5     rise for the day, and I'm obliged to caution you that having been sworn

 6     as a witness you cannot have any communication with counsel from either

 7     side.  And in such conversation as you may have with anyone outside of

 8     the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony.

 9             So we will take the adjournment now until 9.00 tomorrow morning

10     in this courtroom -- I believe we're in this courtroom.  Courtroom II,

11     I'm sorry, Courtroom II tomorrow, at which point Mr. Zecevic will

12     conclude his cross-examination which he estimates would be for another

13     90 minutes.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just one more thing.  I promised to

15     the witness that I would give him two documents.  And my assistant, after

16     we adjourn, will bring it in and we will provide it with the Victims and

17     Witnesses Unit.  Yes, okay, to the Registrar.  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day

21                           of August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.