1 Thursday, 19 August 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
6 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-08-91-T,
7 the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin. Thank you,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good afternoon to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. HANNIS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. For the Prosecution,
13 I'm Tom Hannis, along with Gramsci Di Fazio and Crispian Smith for the
14 Prosecution. We do have a couple of preliminary matters we'd like to
15 raise before the witness comes in.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
17 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for
18 Stanisic Defence.
19 MR. KRGOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Dragan Krgovic and
20 Igor Pantelic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
21 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. Hannis.
23 MR. HANNIS: Mr. Di Fazio has a matter concerning the witness. I
24 have two other matters I was asked to bring to your attention. One is
25 Mr. Olmsted has a witness scheduled to begin testifying next week on
1 Wednesday the 25th, it's ST-210. There's pending a motion from the
2 Prosecution to change his mode of testimony from viva voce to 92 ter. I
3 think the Defence had filed a response today. And we would ask your
4 ruling on that at the earliest possible date so Mr. Olmsted can plan
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And the second one is Ms. Korner has
8 pending -- well, we have pending a motion to add an exhibit. It's a
9 video to be used with Witness ST-23 who will be testifying on
10 Monday, the 30th of August. That's all I had. Mr. Di Fazio, I think,
11 and Mr. Zecevic have something to discuss concerning today's witness.
12 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know if Your Honours want to hear from the
14 Defence first, but let me outline basically what the problem is. The
15 witness who's about to testify, Mr. Tihic, wrote a set of memoirs. They
16 consist of about 66 pages of B/C/S typed memoirs, and they were not
17 disclosed to the Defence until earlier today, not long ago. I can give
18 you an explanation of why or how this happened, and I accept -- I must
19 accept full responsibility for this error and I do.
20 The Defence -- some of the Defence lawyers are not entirely
21 unfamiliar with this document, in particular Mr. Zecevic and
22 Mr. Pantelic. It's referred to in the cross-examination of this witness
23 from the Simic case, the testimony that we would hope eventually to
24 tender into evidence in this particular case. The document is referred
25 there. However, that being said, it doesn't change the fact that in this
1 particular case we did not disclose the memoirs until just a short while
3 Accordingly, I don't know what the attitude of the Defence is to
4 this situation. I understand that the Defence would be willing to go as
5 far as they can with cross-examination and would then require some time
6 to look at the memoirs in order to be able to complete their
7 cross-examination. I understand that that's the situation. And I'm sure
8 that Mr. Zecevic can enlighten you further on that.
9 The witness himself is here, is available, and would be available
10 tomorrow, but would have troubles returning -- in fact, can't return next
11 week and is heavily booked because of his -- he's a politician, of
12 course, and -- a high-ranking politician in Bosnia and is going to have
13 trouble getting back in the near future. So certainly he can finish his
14 evidence tomorrow. He can remain here overnight, and that's not a
15 problem for him. I've already discussed that with him. So I would ask
16 if the Defence can enlighten the Trial Chamber as to what consequences
17 this has for them.
18 I would hope that we can proceed as far as we can today and that
19 a short break today or overnight would enable them to be able to complete
20 their cross-examination. And, of course, everything I say is subject to
21 the Trial Chamber's availability. I'm mindful of that. I'm not ignoring
22 that fact.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Di Fazio, about overbooking or heavily
24 booking, how are we booked for next week?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't have the trial -- the schedule of
1 witnesses at my finger-tips. I can certainly find out immediately --
2 fairly quickly for you. If you give me a moment, I'll make inquiries and
3 see what the situation is.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I will speak in Serbian.
7 [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is a fact that at 12.30 today
8 we received that statement which in the course of this witness's
9 testimony in the Seselj case was extensively used. I was truly unable in
10 such a short time to go through the statement, those memoirs, or the
11 things that the witness can remember that are contained in the statement.
12 I seem to recall somewhat parts of those documents from back in
13 2001, but since I haven't seen those documents for almost a decade now,
14 including the period when we were preparing for the cross-examination of
15 this witness, I'm truly unable to rely on my recollection only. I would
16 truly need to read the document first. I would much prefer if in any way
17 possible that my cross-examination not be interrupted, since what I
18 intended originally to ask the witness could be changed based on what I
19 find in the document that was disclosed to me at half past noon.
20 During an informal conversation we had before the hearing, I
21 realised that there are some problems in that regard. I'm of course
22 willing to accept any ruling on your part. I'm merely expressing my
23 preference. Our clients, however, informed us that they also relied on
24 this Friday being a free day because they wanted to enjoy some of the
25 activities which they otherwise cannot when we sit in the afternoon. I
1 believe you're all aware of that. Having in mind the needs of the
2 Chamber, however, I will follow your instructions.
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, the -- before I hear -- I see
4 Mr. Pantelic is on his feet, but two questions before I give the floor to
5 Mr. Pantelic. We have noted your preference, but it would probably, in
6 terms of the efficient management of our time -- we would probably
7 require you to at least begin. But I do have a concern as to whether --
8 if we do sit in the morning, whether you expect that you would -- and I
9 know this is a somewhat difficult question to -- for you to respond to at
10 this point, not having digested the documents, but do you reasonably
11 anticipate that with the Court sitting tomorrow morning with a view to
12 completing this witness -- because we keep in mind the time constraints
13 of the witness, whether you expect that you would be -- whether you could
14 finish tomorrow morning?
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE HALL: And we would -- we would adjourn earlier today in
17 any event because we appreciate that we would -- you would need time to
18 deal with this. But do you expect you could finish tomorrow? That's the
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I -- Your Honours, thank you very much for your
21 full understanding of my situation. But I do reasonably anticipate that
22 I would be able to analyse and read the document overnight and be
23 prepared for a cross-examination tomorrow. And I will finish definitely
24 with the witness. What I'm -- what I -- what my concern is is that I
25 might -- I reserved three hours for cross-examination -- or estimated
1 three hours for cross-examination of this witness. However, I might be
2 much shorter if I would be able to have the whole picture. I would
3 have -- probably be shorter than three hours. But I -- that is the part
4 I cannot guarantee.
5 Now, in this way, I might be repeating myself and posing the
6 questions to the witness twice, today and tomorrow. But if that is the
7 preference of the Trial Chamber, I'm -- as I said, I'm perfectly willing
8 to adhere to that. Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
10 Mr. Pantelic.
11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be brief. I
12 just want to say something for the record. This specific witness does
13 not testify to the municipality that is part of the indictment against my
14 client. We may have a few questions, which is not the crucial point in
15 this point in time.
16 Since my learned friend Mr. Di Fazio mentioned that I was
17 probably familiar with these documents, I can only state for the record
18 that a decade later I have no clue what is in the document, as opposed to
19 the -- most of the witnesses of the Prosecution who seem to have a
20 fantastic memory, even 20 years down the road. As opposed to that, I'm
21 afraid my memory is not as good.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL: Before we rule on this matter, the -- we are
24 reminded of what Mr. Zecevic has indicated as to the position of the
25 accused themselves, and the -- it would be helpful to us if counsel --
1 well, counsel of course always speak on behalf of their clients, but with
2 this latest development of which the accused would have just become
3 aware, if perhaps both counsel could consult sotto voce with their
4 clients and then let the Chamber know whether -- whether the accused
5 would be willing to come in for a short period tomorrow -- tomorrow
6 morning, a morning session, in order to complete this matter.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Shall we do that --
8 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: -- right now in the courtroom?
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
12 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.
14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have consulted our
15 clients. The problem was that Mr. Zupljanin has a religious ceremony
16 scheduled earlier in the morning, and just prior to that we had planned
17 to visit them at 10.00 in the Detention Unit. We will try to reshuffle
18 that, but first we need to see with Mr. Zupljanin whether he can
19 reschedule as well for the afternoon. In that case, I believe we could
20 sit for a shorter period of time in the morning.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE HALL: Of course -- Mr. Krgovic, of course -- and
23 Mr. Zecevic, the -- of course the -- your clients are aware that they may
24 decline to be present.
25 But, Mr. Zecevic, what is your position?
1 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, my client's position is that he
2 doesn't want to waive his right to be present because this is one of the
3 witnesses from the municipality that he is charged with. But
4 understanding the difficulty which the Trial Chamber is experiencing due
5 to this unfortunate situation, he's, of course, accepting to come
6 tomorrow, as is Mr. Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: So both clients are basically understanding the
9 situation. They will appear tomorrow in the court. Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
11 Mr. Di Fazio, anything further on this issue?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Only to say that I'm extremely grateful to Defence
13 counsel for -- and the Trial Chamber for your understanding in this
14 situation. I must accept full responsibility for this. And I hope that
15 the arrangements will rectify my mistake.
16 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
17 So the usher would escort --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Di Fazio, and on -- we have witnesses for
19 Monday. I just want to make sure that we don't have a blank hearing on
21 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, we're full next week.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: We're fully booked.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Fully booked.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness. First of all, do you
2 hear me in a language you can understand?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your
5 testimony. You're about to read the solemn declaration by which
6 witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth. I need to point out that
7 the solemn declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the
8 penalties of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to
9 this Tribunal.
10 Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the
11 solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: SULEJMAN TIHIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
17 And, sir, could you -- could we begin by asking you to state your
18 full name and full date of and place of birth.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Sulejman Tihic. I was
20 born on the 26th of November, 1951, in Bosanski Samac.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And what is your ethnicity?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Bosniak.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Your profession today?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My profession is -- well, I'm
25 currently the deputy presiding officer of the house of the peoples of the
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, sir. And what was your occupation in
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was an attorney-at-law in
5 Bosanski Samac.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Now, is this your first
7 testimony before this Tribunal, or have you ever testified in any
8 domestic criminal procedure about these matters, about the war?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have testified several times
10 before this Tribunal in various cases, such as Tadic, Simic, Seselj,
11 Milosevic, Simatovic, Stanisic, and this one of course. I have not
12 testified on these matters before any domestic courts.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. That means that you know how
14 things work here, I suppose. You know that you will be asked, first,
15 questions by the Prosecutor, who called you as a witness; then there is a
16 cross-examination; and a re-examination; and eventually the Judges will
17 have questions of you.
18 You probably remember that these sessions take half a day, in the
19 afternoon from 2.15 till 7.00. If it is in the -- a morning session,
20 which will probably be the case tomorrow, it would be from 9.00 to
21 quarter to 2.00. And that these -- that there are pauses every -- more
22 or less every 90 minutes for technical reasons. However, if for any
23 other reason you personally need a short break, please let us know and we
24 will accommodate you. That's all I have to say. Thank you very much.
25 And I will give the floor to the Prosecutor.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
3 Q. Sir, you just mentioned moments ago that you had testified in the
4 Stanisic and Simatovic case. Did that take place in February of this
6 A. I think so.
7 Q. In the course of preparing for that testimony in that case, in
8 Stanisic and Simatovic, did you have occasion to review your testimony in
9 the Simic case which you gave in September and November of 2001?
10 A. Yes, I did. It was quite a voluminous testimony which comprised,
11 I believe, a few hundred pages.
12 Q. Yes, you have my sympathies. Having reviewed that testimony in
13 February of this year, are you able to affirm the accuracy and
14 truthfulness of that testimony?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today, would you provide
17 the same answers and evidence?
18 A. Yes, I would.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I'll be seeking the
20 usual orders, eventually.
21 Q. In the Simic case, you described quite detailed your education
22 and the work that you'd been doing -- the sort of work you'd been doing
23 as a lawyer in Bosanski Samac right up -- up to 1992, and then you also
24 described your developing political career after 1992. And you described
25 it right up until 2001. And again this morning you just told the
1 Trial Chamber that your position currently is that of deputy president of
2 the BiH Bosnian parliament.
3 I'd like you to fill in for the Trial Chamber, please, your
4 career between 2001 and the present time in a fairly broad outline. Just
5 give the Trial Chamber a picture of what you've been doing, in effect, in
6 the last decade.
7 A. In 2001, I was elected president of the SDA party. In -- and I'm
8 still in that position. And I've been elected so far in three party
9 congresses. 2002, I was elected member of the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency. In 2007, I was elected deputy speaker of
11 the house of the peoples of the Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament. People
12 rotate in that function, taking turns every eight months.
13 Q. Thank you. And that's the position you continue to hold today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. In your evidence from Simic, it's quite clear that
16 you are Bosanski Samac born and bred and you described -- you still have
17 continuing relations with the city and you go back there and you have
18 familiar there; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. My family -- my extended family live in Bosanski Samac. My
20 granddaughters live there, they attend school there. And I go there
21 every other weekend.
22 Q. Thank you. I'd like to begin by showing you some maps, if I may.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness please be shown 65 ter 10470.
24 Q. Can you see that?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. Okay. Now, is that a map of Bosanski Samac and the Sava River
2 and surrounding towns and villages?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Okay. There's -- two places in red are mentioned. Firstly, if I
5 may deal with one, Batkusa. In your evidence, you described
6 paramilitaries being flown -- arriving in Batkusa in a helicopter about
7 11 or so days prior to the take-over in April in 1992. Is that where
8 the -- they were flying to, that place indicated there in red, Batkusa?
9 A. Yes. I was told by -- this by a client of mine, when I was an
10 attorney, that there were some helicopters who landed there in Batkusa
11 from Serbia.
12 Q. Thanks. But that place -- we've got all your evidence concerning
13 that, thank you. But that place there in red lettering in the map saying
14 "Batkusa," that's the place that you understand they landed at?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, you describe in your evidence the notorious man,
17 the well-known man, Mr. -- nicknamed Lugar Slobodan Miljkovic. And I --
18 it's not in -- it can't be in dispute that he was involved in a massacre
19 of people at Crkvina. Do you see the place called Crkvina in red bold in
20 the map?
21 A. Yes. That was in May 1992.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you're talking about the massacre that was in
23 May 1992; is that what you're saying?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And the place marked in red in bold on this map that
1 you see in front of you, that's the same Crkvina that you're talking
2 about, the place that Lugar carried out his massacre?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. About how far is Crkvina from Bosanski Samac,
6 A. Five kilometres, five to six.
7 Q. Thanks.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the map, if Your Honours please.
9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01544, Your Honours.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Can I just show you another map, please.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: 65 ter number 10469, please. Thanks.
14 Q. Is that a map of -- a more detailed map of the township of
15 Bosanski Samac?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Thanks.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I may need the assistance of the usher. I'm going
19 to ask that the map be marked.
20 Q. You gave extensive evidence in the Simic case concerning events
21 at the police station and the TO building, and it's clear from your
22 evidence that both those places are very close to each other, just across
23 a small, narrow road. With a -- can you place a dot, a dot, in the part
24 of the Bosanski Samac town where the TO and the -- the TO and the police
25 station are located. You can't be precise, of course. It's not a highly
1 detailed map. But the approximate area.
2 A. Well, I can orientate myself pretty well. It's here on the
3 corner. On the one side, you have the police station; and then on the
4 other side of the road is the staff of the TO, Territorial Defence.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: For the record, that looks like an "i" with a
7 little dot at the top of it -- now a circle.
8 Q. Thank you. Okay. Now -- don't touch the screen anymore, if you
9 don't mind. One more location in the town.
10 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to have the counsel's indulgence.
11 If he can request the witness to remark the document --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: -- if he can mark it in red which is more visible.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
16 MR. DI FAZIO:
17 Q. Help us out, Mr. Tihic, could you just put a dot, a dot, in the
18 location where the police station and the TO building are located.
19 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio, inasmuch as I understand you were
20 inviting him to mark something else, wouldn't it be more helpful if you
21 use numbers; 1 for the first marking and 2 for the second?
22 MR. DI FAZIO: I was going to -- I'm happy to do that. Thank
24 Q. You heard the Bench's suggestion. Could you turn that into the
25 number 1, please, a small 1.
1 A. One. And then right below is 2. You just have to cross the
2 road. It's on the very corner there.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. So 1 is the police station, and the number 2
4 represents the TO building; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And now, with a small number 3, could you please indicate
7 the area of the town where the Mitar Trifunovic school is located.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Thank you for doing that.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that
12 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 10469
14 shall be given Exhibit P01545. Thank you, Your Honours.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. I've finished with the map. And I'd now
16 like another image or photograph to be placed on the screen if it could.
17 Could 3419.47 please be put up on the screen.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, counsel, can you please repeat the number
19 again, please. Thanks.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, of course. It's an aerial photograph, and
21 it's 3419.47.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, counsel, can you please indicate if that
23 comes with a P prefix, or is that a 65 ter?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: My information is 3419.47. I can provide a hard
25 copy, if that's of any use. Okay. That's the one, yep.
1 Q. Is that Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Again, could you just circle two locations in that map, if you
4 can. Firstly, the TO and the police station, and then the
5 Mitar Trifunovic school. Do the police station and the TO building
6 first, circle it, and mark it with a number 1.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. You've marked 1 and 2. Is 1 the police
9 station and is 2 the TO building?
10 A. And 3 is the school, the elementary school.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that photograph, please.
13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 -- the marked portion of
15 65 ter 3419.47 shall be given Exhibit P01546. Thank you, Your Honours.
16 MR. DI FAZIO:
17 Q. Incidentally, that's the Sava River there that you can see in
18 that photograph and across the river is Croatia; correct?
19 A. Yes. You can see the Sava River and then on the other side is
21 Q. Thanks. I'd like to show you a building, please.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: And can the witness please be shown the photograph
23 65 ter 3419.50.
24 Q. When that has righted itself on the screen and you've had a
25 chance to look at it, can you tell the Trial Chamber what that place is.
1 A. This is the elementary school.
2 Q. What's the name of that place, that school?
3 A. Before the war, it was called Mitar Trifunovic, Uco.
4 Q. And the places that, just moments ago, you've marked as the
5 Mitar Trifunovic school, is that the school that you were talking about
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that image.
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01547, Your Honours.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. I think that's all we need of the school.
13 Q. I'd like to show you another image, 3419.51. What's the building
14 in blue with a flag out the front?
15 A. That's the police station.
16 Q. Now, you gave extensive evidence about your ordeal in the police
17 station and the TO building in the Simic case. Is that the police
18 station where you were from time to time beaten and interrogated?
19 A. Yes. This is viewed from the street side.
20 Q. Right. Taken from the side where the TO building would be; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Okay. And if we can quickly show you one more image
24 of the front.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: 3419.52, please. I should add that I will be
1 seeking to tender both of these images.
2 Q. I don't think there's any doubt about it; that's the same place,
3 right, just taken directly from the front, the police station?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. Can we give them exhibit numbers before we
7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 3419.51 shall be given
9 Exhibit P01548, while 65 ter 3419.52 shall be given Exhibit P01549.
10 Thank you, Your Honours.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.
12 Next image: 3419.54, please.
13 Q. What's that place?
14 A. That is the same building, the police station, but viewed from
15 the courtyard, the police backyard, as it were.
16 Q. It's the rear of the building, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If you just kept walking out from that back door, you'd
19 eventually hit the Sava River, wouldn't you?
20 A. Yes. It would be a brief walk, some 50 to 100 metres, and then
21 you would get to Sava River.
22 Q. In your evidence, you describe being imprisoned in that -- in
23 that building. Is the window -- sorry, do any of those windows -- is the
24 room where you were imprisoned in the police station depicted here in
25 this photograph? Can you see it?
1 A. Yes, it is. That's the window with the bars with mesh. If you
2 can see it, it's to the right side, right of the door. There were two
3 cells there. They were 1 metre wide and perhaps 1.80 metres long. There
4 were benches there. Nine of us sat and slept there. And I spent ten
5 days there.
6 Q. Thank you. And it's the only window that we can see with bars
7 shown across it shown in that photograph.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I tender the
10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As P01550. Thank you, Your Honours.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: And can -- one more: 3419.56, please.
13 Q. Again, you can see that that's obviously the rear of the police
14 station. Those garages that you can see there, were they there when you
15 were imprisoned?
16 A. Yes, there were garages.
17 Q. Do you know -- if you don't know, that's fine, but do you have
18 any information as to whether anyone was ever held there or not during
19 the time that you were imprisoned?
20 A. I was not held there, but I know that other people were.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: And I tender that photograph.
23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01551, Your Honours.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we have 3419.57.
1 Q. What's the place that you can see in that photograph? You can
2 see a white car and a little courtyard. What's in -- what building does
3 the courtyard relate to?
4 A. That courtyard is part of the building of -- where the
5 Territorial Defence is located. On the right-hand side, you can see part
6 of that building. But these -- this gate was closed off. You can see --
7 you see where this -- in the front part there was a shop, and in the back
8 there were warehouses where we were.
9 Q. Okay. If you look at the photograph, if you were to enter that
10 courtyard as you're looking at the photograph, were the men imprisoned in
11 rooms on the left-hand side?
12 A. Yes, on the left-hand side. You can also see where the door is;
13 that's where they were kept. And on the right-hand side, that building,
14 that's where the offices of the Territorial Defence staff were.
15 Q. Could you just circle the door that led into the room where the
16 prisoners were kept?
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that photograph.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of
22 65 ter 3419.57 shall be given Exhibit P01552, Your Honours.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: One more photograph, please, of this place:
25 Q. The place with the two windows, is that the TO building office or
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender that.
4 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01553, Your Honours.
6 MR. DI FAZIO:
7 Q. I'd like to show you another aerial shot, please.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 3419.48.
9 Q. Have a look at that place at this road junction that you can see.
10 Do you -- firstly, do you know what that area is from looking at it?
11 A. Well, this could be Crkvina. That is the junction where one road
12 leads to Gracac, the other to Modrica. So this is Crkvina for sure.
13 Q. Focus your attention, please, on the building that you might say
14 is smack-bang in the middle of the photograph. It's got a yard in front
15 of it, and you can see little cars, two white cars and a blue car and
16 then a little red car, right in the middle of the photograph. Do you see
17 that? What's that place?
18 A. Yes, I do. That's the place where the prisoners were killed, the
19 camp detainees, in May 1992. I mentioned earlier that incident. I
20 wasn't there, myself, but I was told by other people who were there later
22 Q. Killed by Lugar, Slobodan Miljkovic?
23 A. Yes, Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar.
24 Q. I'm sorry for my mispronunciation.
25 Circle the building, please, and then we'll tender that.
1 A. [Marks]
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I seek to tender it.
3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of document
5 3419.48 shall be given Exhibit P01554.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not sure if the witness has marked it. I
7 can't see it on --
8 JUDGE HALL: It had been marked. I was just about to ask whether
9 that had been removed from the screen, because what now appears is not a
10 marked copy.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I see.
12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Registrar, did we capture --
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm that we captured
14 the marked portion.
15 JUDGE HALL: Okay.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, I'm very grateful.
17 And the last photograph I want to use is 3419.61.
18 Q. What's that place?
19 A. Well, that is the same place that we saw in the earlier
20 photograph blown up.
21 Q. The place at Crkvina?
22 A. Yes. This is just a blow-up of that earlier photo.
23 Q. Just for the purposes of the record, that's Crkvina, the place
24 that you depicted in the previous aerial photograph?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. And in 1992, what was that place being used for, if you can tell
2 us; if you don't know, that's fine.
3 A. Well, I know because the camp detainees who were kept there, they
4 showed it to me, and this is where the crime was committed, when
5 Slobodan Miljkovic, Lugar, killed some 16 men.
6 Q. Was that place being used as a warehouse back in 1992, other than
7 the purposes you've mentioned?
8 A. Yes, yes. I mean, I think it used to be a warehouse.
9 Q. Mr. Tihic, thank you very much for answering my questions again.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Di Fazio --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, my mistake. I forgot to seek the
13 production into evidence of that photo and I do.
14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01555, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tihic.
20 A. Good afternoon.
21 Q. We have known each other since 2001. I don't know whether you
22 recall the Samac case against Simic. Mr. Tihic, it is a fact, is it not,
23 that the town of Bosanski Samac is of some strategic importance for
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
25 A. Yes. The estuary of the Bosna River into the Sava River, the
1 bridge itself, as well as certain mines.
2 Q. I asked you about this because of an adjudicated fact, which is
3 P95, which has to do with the strategic importance of Bosanski Samac from
4 the military standpoint. Save for that aspect, it is geographically
5 important for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the very reasons you have
7 A. Yes, geographically speaking and in terms of traffic.
8 Q. It is a fact, is it not, that during 1991 there were weapons
9 transport routes which, among others, included the routes from Croatia
10 across the bridge in Bosanski Samac?
11 A. It's difficult to say, but I think that most of the bridges were
12 destroyed anyhow and there was only one left, although I cannot tell you
13 what things eventually crossed it.
14 Q. Very well. We'll get back to that again.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P544 --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: P1544.
17 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is the environs of
18 Bosanski Samac.
19 Could the usher be so kind as to help Mr. Tihic to have something
20 marked in red on the screen.
21 Q. Mr. Tihic, please put a number 1 next to the town of
22 Bosanski Samac.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. To the left-hand side and towards the middle of the page, we can
25 see Modrica. Please write 2 next to it, if you can see it.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. On the right-hand side, in the upper right corner, there is
3 Orasje, where I would kindly ask you to put a 3. Would you like them to
4 zoom in?
5 A. Well, I can't see it right now.
6 Q. Orasje is right next to the Sava River.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 It is a fact that during 1992 this entire stretch shown on this
10 map, on the left-hand side of the Bosna River, was under the control of
11 the Croatian forces or the HVO?
12 A. When?
13 Q. In 1992.
14 A. Odzak was for a while under their control, but not throughout
15 1992, if I'm not mistaken.
16 Q. Can you tell us approximately at what time?
17 A. In the first half of 1992 I presume.
18 Q. Please draw a line next to the Bosna River to mark the left side,
19 the left bank, of the river which was under the control of Croatia -- of
20 the Croatian forces.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. I think the territory surrounding Orasje in early 1992 was also
23 controlled by the Croatian forces. Do you know approximately how the
24 line ran?
25 A. This is it more or less. From Grebnice to Orasje.
1 Q. Thank you. Across the Sava there's Croatia. We don't even need
2 to say that it was, of course, controlled by the Croatian forces.
3 Towards the bottom of the map, what was the territory controlled by the
4 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina? Can you tell us that, approximately?
5 A. I think we should go further down than what is shown on this map
6 otherwise we can't see it at all.
7 Q. So below the edge of the map at the bottom?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Under the Dayton Agreements, Orasje became a separate
10 municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, but it had also been a separate municipality before that.
12 Q. Very well.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document with
14 the markings made by Mr. Tihic.
15 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the marked portion of 65 ter 10470
17 shall be given Exhibit 1D00345. Thank you, Your Honours.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Tihic, while we're still with this map, can you tell me this:
20 It is a fact, is it not, that for the most of 1992 or let's say as of the
21 beginning of the hostilities and until August or let's say summer of
22 1992, the road between Bosanski Samac and Modrica towards Doboj was cut
23 off in the area of Modrica?
24 A. I don't think so. I don't think that road was cut off. In what
25 period of time?
1 Q. In 1992.
2 A. It depends what month we're talking about. Perhaps after April,
3 by which time I had been detained. Before April, one could freely go to
4 Sarajevo and back.
5 Q. You are aware of the fact that the road to Bijeljina was cut off
6 at Brcko?
7 A. I -- I'm not aware of that.
8 Q. I do realise that this happened after you were detained.
9 Sir, you are probably aware that while you were in
10 Bosanski Samac, from the area you indicated, from the area that was
11 controlled by the Croatian forces, Bosanski Samac was shelled by
13 A. While I was still free, it was not. Before the attack, Samac had
14 not been shelled. I was detained after the attack, and at that time
15 there were some military activities. There was probably mutual shelling.
16 Q. However, during your detention in Bosanski Samac, which was the
17 case for a while, you must have been able to hear artillery detonations?
18 A. I do not recall that.
19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tihic, if I understand your testimony correctly,
20 as of 1990 you have been a member of the SDA party; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. After you became a member, you also became the president of the
23 SDA in Bosanski Samac. When was that, approximately?
24 A. I think in September 1991.
25 Q. Very well. When did you, Mr. Tihic, become a member of the
1 Main Board of the SDA?
2 A. During the first party congress, which was held in 1990. I think
3 it was in late November.
4 Q. Very well.
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, if you're moving on to something else,
6 would this be a convenient point to take the break?
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Thank you very much.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Di Fazio, before the witness enters the
12 courtroom, am I right in thinking that there is, for the new material we
13 discussed in the beginning of this session -- this hearing, there's no
14 English translation for that?
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 MR. DI FAZIO: No, we've got an English translation, and that's
17 been disclosed to the Defence.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I found that after I found the B/C/S version --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: -- or rather, following --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Will the Court have that today as well?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I can give that to -- how would you like it,
24 Your Honours, electronically or hard copies? Whatever ...
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Whatever.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll make arrangements.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may be of assistance, it has
4 been uploaded by our staff, so probably it's already in the e-court.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Tihic, you told us that since 1990, that is, the first party
8 congress, you were a member of the Main Board of the SDA; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You certainly know Mr. Hasan Cengic?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Was he also a member of the Main Board, or what was his position
14 in 1991 in the party, if you recall that?
15 A. He was probably a member of the Main Board. He was one of the
16 founders of the party. It is quite likely that he was a member of the
17 Main Board, although I cannot recall that with any certainty.
18 Q. In any case, if our information is correct, he had his office in
19 the party headquarters in Sarajevo?
20 A. No, he did not.
21 Q. Can you tell us where his office was?
22 A. He had a business of his own, and now he's a member of a -- of
23 the party board which comprises some 100 people.
24 Q. In 1991 was he an active member of the party in Sarajevo?
25 A. He was, although I don't recall his exact position.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
2 1D180, which is an MFI document.
3 Q. I'm quite certain you can recognise Mr. Cengic's signature?
4 A. I really am not certain. I don't think I could.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it in English,
7 Q. Sir, this is the cover letter of a document issued by the SDA, at
8 least that's what the cover letter looked like back in 1991; is that
10 A. Such memoranda always contained another sign which was the
11 crescent moon, and I don't see it here.
12 Q. Do you recognise this as Mr. Cengic's signature?
13 A. I'm not certain.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the stamp?
15 A. Well, there were such stamps as this one. It says
16 "SDA Sarajevo." It is possible that this is the stamp, although I don't
17 know how exactly -- what exactly it looked like at the time.
18 Q. If you recall, was the address of the party HQ was in
19 Marsala Tita Street 7A?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that is the address you can see in the top right-hand-side
23 A. Yes, and it still has offices there.
24 Q. Sir, were you present at a meeting of the SDA on the 11th of June
25 in the police hall in Sarajevo?
1 A. If you could enlighten me by the agenda, I might be able to
2 answer that. I was at a meeting in the police hall, but I don't know
3 whether it was on this date.
4 Q. At that meeting, the Council of National Defence of the SDA was
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
8 repeat the answer; we did not hear it.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please repeat your previous answer because it was not
11 recorded. My question was -- or actually, I was trying to jog your
12 memory by saying that at that meeting of the 11th of June, the
13 Council for National Defence of the SDA was established. What was your
15 A. I was not present at that council session.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's not clear to me from
17 the evidence, from questions or answers, what year we're talking about.
18 I assume from the fact the document was dated 1991 that that's the year
19 we're talking about, but it's not clear on the transcript to me.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] We're talking about 1991.
21 Q. Sir, my question was whether you used this or similar type of
22 memorandum -- or, rather, were you informed, by virtue of such a
23 memorandum, of the establishment of such a council?
24 A. I know that we were notified that we had to have our security
25 commissions within municipal party structures. This is what I am aware
1 of. Whether it was written in this precise wording, that I don't know.
2 But, in any case, I know we were busy establishing security commissions.
3 Every municipal organisation within the party did so, and it is quite
4 customary for all parties.
5 Q. So do you recall having received this document or not?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. Mr. Tihic, it is a fact that in the area of the municipality of
8 Bosanski Samac members of the Croatian people were arming themselves
9 quite intensively in 1991 and 1992?
10 A. The fact is that the Serbs were arming themselves the most. They
11 received their weapons from the JNA; and as for the others, upon having
12 seen that the Serbs were arming themselves, they did the same in their
13 own ways.
14 Q. Sir, do you recall that on the 26th of July, 1990, there was a
15 religious ceremony held in Domaljevac on the occasion of the festivity of
16 St. Anne. In particular, members of the HDZ rallied, and this was
17 covered quite extensively?
18 A. I was an attorney-at-law at the time, and I had some of my
19 clients in that village, so it is likely that I was in the area.
20 Q. Do you recall that Croats were then putting forward the agenda
21 that Croats should seize certain portions of Bosnia-Herzegovina and join
22 with their motherland in order to have all the Croats in a single
24 A. I do not seem to recall that.
25 Q. Do you recall that between the 1st and 3rd of February, 1992, a
1 large amount of weapons arrived in the area of Odzak, whereupon it was
2 distributed to the members of HDZ in the village of Prud?
3 A. I don't know that.
4 Q. Did you know that as early as August 1991 from Domaljevac there
5 were more than 150 and 200 people from that village who were included in
6 different paramilitary-type Croatian formations?
7 A. I didn't know that.
8 Q. Did you know that on the 8th and the 9th of September, the HDZ of
9 Bosanski Samac transferred weapons from the territory of Croatia into the
10 village of Grebnice?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just to make sure that there is no error in the
15 transcript, religious ceremony you talked about in Domaljevac, the
16 festivity of St. Anne, is that 1990, July 1990, or 1991?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: July 1990.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Then it's correct.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I will now show you a document, 1D03-1307.
21 This is a regular report from the Croatian army command, Eastern Posavina
22 Operational Group, of January 4th, 1992. It reads "Regular Report," and
23 then, among other, there is an underlined portion where it says that
24 certain dailies, including the Sarajevo "Oslobodjenje," and also the
25 Sarajevo TV and radio reported the news that in the municipalities of
1 Derventa, Bosanski Brod, and Odzak, around 1500 Croats have been armed,
2 mostly with automatic rifles, light machine-guns, anti-aircraft guns, and
3 anti-tank weapons. And in that context mention is made of some members,
4 leading members, of the HDZ in various municipalities. And according to
5 this information, the weapons in question arrived from the other side of
6 the Sava, in other words, from Croatia. And it was also said that the
7 army would take measures in order for these illegal weapons to be
8 returned, and the dead-line of 48 hours was given. And since from this
9 we can see that this was published and broadcast, published in
10 Oslobodjenje and broadcast on Sarajevo TV and on the radio, I assume that
11 you're aware of these?
12 A. Well, no, I don't. There were all sorts of information coming
13 out, and they were really more like rumours.
14 Q. Well, you see here in the last sentence it says:
15 "In that respect, the activities of the Croatian Democratic
16 Union, or, rather, the leaders of the HDZ from these villages are asking
17 the Main Staff of the Croatian army what they are to do if the army
18 begins confiscating these weapons."
19 A. Well, I don't see that any mention here is made of
20 Bosanski Samac. There's only mention of Derventa and Odzak.
21 Q. Well, yes, but that's all in the same area; right?
22 A. Well, yes. I really can't recall.
23 Q. On the next page, page 2.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just pull it up, please.
25 Q. It says -- or, rather, this document was signed by
1 Lieutenant Ivo Petric, the OG deputy -- the OG --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Commander.
3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. -- and it says that:
5 "It is interesting to know that newspaper reports and the news
6 carried by the television and radio in Sarajevo cited the Ministry of the
7 Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina as the source of this piece of
9 Does this help refresh your memory?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, sir, you must know about the establishment
12 of the Patriotic League and the Green Berets in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
13 A. Well, I heard about it, but I did not take any part in it. I
14 heard about it after the war.
15 Q. I would like to show you a document, 1D001 [as interpreted],
16 dated November 16, 1990, entitled:
17 "Preparations and Organisation of the Patriotic League to Defend
18 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
20 Do you know anything about this document? Have you ever received
21 a document of this nature?
22 A. No. Specifically, I don't know anything about this document, but
23 I do know about the establishment of the Patriotic League and so on and
24 so forth. I know that there were such instances where people organised
25 themselves, because the -- all the military capabilities were on one
1 side, so people organised themselves in order to defend themselves.
2 Q. Very well. Now I would like to show you a document I'm sure
3 you're familiar with. 1D03-4701. This is an SDA document,
4 Bosanski Samac SDA. I don't have the date, but I imagine that you will
5 remember this document. This document from the Party for
6 Democratic Action of Bosanski Samac is entitled:
7 "Organisation and Method of Receiving, Transmitting, and
8 Conveying Orders for Mobilisation."
9 There is a date appearing in the English version. I think it
10 says the 21st of May, 1992.
11 A. Well, at that time, Samac had already been occupied.
12 Q. Well, I assume that's the case. It should be -- the date should
13 be earlier. But tell me, do you know anything about this document?
14 A. I can't really remember. Can we see what's inside?
15 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Please -- can we please see the
16 next page -- or, rather, the third page.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this title is so pompous and
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, you can see on this document where it says -- where your
22 name appears as well. It says Sulejman Tihic and Alija Fitozovic?
23 A. I cannot see it.
24 Q. Can you recall the document now?
25 A. I don't remember this document, but I know that there was a
1 commission which was busy working on these matters, and the objective was
2 to try to prevent something, if that was possible at all, in view of our
3 numbers, because we had a very small percentage of Muslims in
4 Bosanski Samac. There is mention made of couriers, and the purpose was
5 to see if we can set up a warning system so that we have time to move out
6 on time and shelter ourselves. Now, we -- there were only about
7 7 per cent of Bosniaks in that town, and there were -- the largest number
8 was Serb and then Croatians, so we had to do something.
9 Q. Sir, you testified both in the Samac case and some other cases,
10 and it is indisputable that you were at the head of a security commission
11 or something to that effect of the party, and Alija Fitozovic, who was a
12 retired soldier who had military experience, he was the commander of that
13 same body?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
15 speak into the microphone.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a reserve junior officer in
17 Karlovac and so on.
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: I apologise for interrupting, but the
19 interpreters are asking that you speak directly into the microphone
20 because they have a hard time hearing what you're saying.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So Fitozovic was a reserve officer, officer in reserve, and
23 therefore he had some military experience which qualified him for the
24 suitable person to be the leader of that staff; correct?
25 A. Yes, he was an officer in reserve or a junior officer.
1 Q. Sir, this document, unlike what you told us a few moments ago,
2 contains, on the following pages, on the next pages, it contains certain
3 description of military formations and units.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page for the
5 benefit of the witness.
6 Q. It says the engineering platoon and the commander was Atif Ratic.
7 Do you know this man, Atif Ratic?
8 A. Yes, but that he was in charge of that platoon, I doubt it. I
9 don't know where that came from. He was an inn keeper. I don't know
10 what he was in the army. I don't even know if he served in the army.
11 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could we see the page
12 with the ERN Y027-4523.
13 I'm told that this document was not uploaded as a complete
14 document by some kind of error, so I will revisit it tomorrow.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't even know if you
16 should ask me about this document. Perhaps it would be a better idea to
17 ask Mr. Fitozovic, because our documents stayed behind, and anyone could
18 add whatever they wanted to.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Very well. But, in any case, it is a fact, isn't it, that at one
21 point you established an armed unit composed of members of the Party of
22 Democratic Action in Bosanski Samac; correct?
23 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by "armed unit."
24 Q. Well, I will show you a document in a moment.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-2787. Can we have that,
2 Q. Is this your signature on this document?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall, do you know, whose signature this was?
5 A. Well, I don't, but if you allow me to read, maybe I can deduce
6 something from the content. But certainly this is not my signature. I
7 know that some members of the SDA obtained weapons, that there was
8 some -- there were some arms, and they were all to join the staff of
9 Territorial Defence, because we were anxious about the possibility of
10 these weapons being used in an uncontrolled way and then creating a
12 Q. Well, let's analyse this document. It says the city command
13 Bosanski Samac, it has a signature and a stamp of the democratic action
14 party staff, and so on. So did the Party of Democratic Action have a
15 city command or a town command?
16 A. No. But the intention was that whoever had and possessed some
17 weapons, that they should become members of the staff of the
18 Territorial Defence.
19 Q. Here it says that the staff of Territorial Defence was
20 established according to the list enclosed, and your name appears on top
21 of the list. Does that ring a bell?
22 A. Well, I don't know. If we can see the list, probably there was a
23 list of all those who were prepared to join the staff of
24 Territorial Defence thereby becoming part of the legal defence organs of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it's possible that I'm on that list.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness
2 page 2 of this document.
3 Q. Is this your address, Vojvodjanskih Brigada 3? Was that your
4 address at the time?
5 A. Yes. And now looking at this list, all of these people, the
6 ranking members and the others, this is all a list of people who were
7 prepared to place themselves under the control of the staff of
8 Territorial Defence, or, rather, to join it, and a unit would be formed
9 in that way.
10 Q. Sir, it is not in dispute that these individuals who appear on
11 this list possess -- had weapons; correct? You had a weapon, too.
12 A. I don't know if they all had a weapon. I don't know if every one
13 of them had a weapon, but some of them did and I did.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic.
15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Where are we going?
17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm just trying to explore, Your Honours, this
18 document, whether I can refresh the memory of this witness, because I
19 would like to tender this document in evidence.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: For what reason? I mean, what -- are we going in
21 the direction of tu quoque?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: No, we are not going in the direction of tu quoque
23 at all.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Tihic, this document shows 212 names. I suppose that you
2 have been shown this document already in some of the earlier cases. Does
3 this help jog your memory?
4 A. Well, I think that's a large number of names, and I don't really
5 trust that that's a correct figure.
6 Therefore, I don't even know if this document is authentic and
7 whether it was in fact an attachment to the document that you've just
8 shown me earlier, because I doubt that there were 200 people on a list of
9 that sort. Maybe a shorter list, but not one numbering 200 people.
10 Q. Well, I propose we do this: I will ask my associates to make
11 xeroxed copies of these documents, because we have to come back again
12 tomorrow, and then perhaps you can take a look at those documents
13 overnight and -- which might help refresh your memory, and then I will
14 put some questions to you tomorrow about some of these documents.
15 A. Well, that's fine. But this first document, that was not my
16 signature on it. And as for these lists, I don't mind.
17 Q. It's all right, Mr. Tihic. I will give you an opportunity to
18 answer my questions relating to these documents that I will hand-over to
19 you later this afternoon.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. Mr. Tihic, tell us, please, you know that the Assembly of the
22 Serbian autonomous district was established on the 11th, in
23 November 1991?
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's document P1353.18.
25 Q. Mr. Tihic, could you please repeat your answer into the
1 microphone because it wasn't recorded.
2 A. Well, yes, I know that the Serbian autonomous region of northern
3 Bosnia was established in November 1991.
4 Q. Sir, let's try and put this in context. This happened after the
5 Assembly session in -- of October 1991 where the declaration on an
6 independent Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was adopted and where the
7 Assembly -- deputies of the Serb Democratic Party walked out of the
8 session; do you remember?
9 A. Well, I don't. But, yes, that was when it was established. This
10 was the time when the Serbian autonomous districts were being
11 established, and this began even earlier on, before this one for northern
12 Bosnia. I can't recall the exact date. But this was in line with a
13 policy whereby there were parallel government structures being
14 established, parallel to the legal Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 This was all illegal and unconstitutional.
16 Q. Tell me, please -- I can show you a document, if you have doubts
17 about the date of this Assembly, that was on the 14th of October, 1991,
18 where this declaration was adopted.
19 A. That's possible. I did not deny that, but I can't really recall
20 the date myself.
21 Q. For reference, may I just add that it's document 1392 -- 1D92.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D92.
24 Q. Tell me, please, you mentioned that this process of forming
25 autonomous districts throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina was
1 unconstitutional. Isn't it true, though, that the declaration of the
2 Assembly of October 14th, whereby members of one ethnicity were
3 practically disallowed to vote, that this, too, was unconstitutional?
4 A. No, that's not true. This was a decision adopted by the
5 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
6 where Bosniaks and Croats and Serbs voted. So it was legal --
7 constitution. But here, mention is made, and it's only the establishment
8 of a Serbian autonomous district of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this is
9 unique in the world where in a state only one people would establish
10 their own districts. That's impossible. That's unconstitutional totally
11 because there are three peoples there, three ethnicities, and it's --
12 this is completely unreasonable.
13 Q. Sir, did you know that the SDA in Banja Luka made a statutory
14 decision insisting on the establishment of a certain municipality called
15 Stari Grad?
16 A. I don't know. It is possible, but I wasn't sufficiently senior
17 within the party to be -- know -- to know of that.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is 1D4.
19 Q. Did you know that in the municipality of Kljuc at a session of
20 the Club of Deputies of the SDA and the MBO the new municipality of
21 Bosanski Kljuc was established?
22 A. I'm not familiar with that. I don't know why it was necessary.
23 It was not our policy to create new municipalities, and I highly doubt
24 this. Besides, Kljuc was populated by Bosniaks mostly, so why ask for a
25 new municipality?
1 Q. It is dated the 30th of January, 1992. I'm referring to a report
2 about the meeting. It is 1D03-4707. Have a look. It says
3 Bosanski Kljuc municipality. It says:
4 "At yesterday's session of the SDA ..."
5 A. This is quite a strange body of text. There's no heading, no
6 paragraphs. I don't know who did this; and if they did, it doesn't seem
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: If this is not tu quoque against the witness's
11 opinion that the creation of Serb autonomous regions was
12 unconstitutional, what is it then?
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, I would gladly explain, but
14 maybe the witness should be excused in that case.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could the usher please escort the witness out of
16 the courtroom. Thank you.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness asserts
19 that the establishment of the Serb autonomous districts was
20 unconstitutional and illegal. It is our assertion, which the witness
21 denies, is that it was a reaction to the unconstitutional and illegal
22 decision that had been made by the Assembly. It is a fact and we are
23 trying to prove that all parties, that is to say the Muslims, Croats, and
24 Serbs, created their own autonomous regions and their own municipalities
25 in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991 and 1992. I intend to show to the witness
1 an instruction. For your reference, it is 1D3. It is an instruction of
2 the SDA on how to divide municipalities up. A local commune where
3 Bosniaks were in the majority would separate from the rest of its
4 municipalities. This was no policy or no decision of the Serbs to create
5 their respective autonomous regions. This was simply a fact of reality
6 which reflected what the other peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina did. All
7 the peoples in Bosnia made such statutory decisions about the way the
8 republic should be organised. In this case, it is certainly not a
9 tu quoque approach of this Defence.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: While we're at it, Mr. Zecevic, you said - where
11 is it? - that about the Assembly of October 14th you said that members of
12 one ethnicity were practically disallowed to vote. Are you referring to
13 the fact that the Serb delegates left the Assembly?
14 MR. ZECEVIC: The situation, Your Honours, was the following:
15 The president of the Assembly declared that the Assembly session was over
16 because of the certain dispute between the delegates. After that, the
17 delegates of the Serbian Democratic Party left the parliament. And after
18 they left the parliament it was unconstitutionally and not in accordance
19 with the law, the session was reopened, and the decision on declaration
20 of the independent Bosnia and Herzegovina has been brought -- brought up.
21 And we will -- we definitely intend in our Defence case to prove that
22 beyond a reasonable doubt.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, unless we -- the three of us have
1 wholly missed the point, accepting -- taking on board everything you have
2 just said, where does this then take us, having regard to the indictment,
3 which, of course, is what we are about in terms of this trial, both what
4 the Prosecution proves and what you are defending against?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm just briefly covering the general
6 context, and I am about to move into the area which is directly connected
7 to our indictment, namely, the role of the MUP, the Republika Srpska, the
8 Crisis Staffs, and et cetera, and the crimes committed.
9 JUDGE HALL: Yes. You can move directly there, can't you? The
10 background is -- there's no real dispute in terms of the course of events
11 and the legislative goings-on.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I'm afraid that I must disagree. I think
13 there is a -- there is a deep dispute between the parties, on that part
14 of the general context. And, Your Honours, I wanted to use the witness
15 because I assumed he, as a lawyer, the intellectual, the president of the
16 SDA, and the member of the Main Board of the SDA since 1990, to be able
17 to give us some of the documents which we didn't -- which we didn't
18 introduce through other witnesses which were not in a position to comment
19 that -- on that. I tried with the witness, but he didn't -- he was
20 unable to comment on these documents as well. So that is the situation.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the fact that it is
22 tu quoque is really eloquently set out by Mr. Zecevic's own words.
23 "It's a fact that we're trying to prove that all parties, that is
24 to say, Muslims and Croats and Serbs, created their own autonomous
25 regions and their own municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991
1 and 1992."
2 And if you look at the previous cross-examination that preceded
3 that on the issue of arms and arming, we never got to any point beyond
4 evidence establishing or trying to establish that Muslims were arming
5 themselves in Bosanski Samac. Same is occurring here now with regard to
6 the creation of these autonomous regions and self-governing regions.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have a suggestion to make. I think
8 maybe it would be the best -- the best that we adjourn for the day now
9 and continue tomorrow. I believe I have one and a half hours more with
10 the witness, and that would be something -- the area that I'm going to
11 cover is going to be much more related to the indictment directly, as I
12 understand the Trial Chamber would appreciate.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, we agree with your suggestion, that
15 your cross-examination be suspended at this point. But before we take a
16 decision as to whether to adjourn, we'll inquire as to whether counsel
17 for - thank you - counsel for Mr. Zupljanin would wish to use such of
18 today as can be practically used.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Pantelic -- Mr. Krgovic.
21 MR. KRGOVIC: We don't have cross-examination for this witness.
22 JUDGE HALL: Pardon me?
23 MR. KRGOVIC: We don't have cross-examination for this witness.
24 JUDGE HALL: I see. Thank you.
25 Could we have the witness back into the court, please.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Tihic, we have invited you back into the
4 courtroom in order to formally take the adjournment. We are about to
5 rise for the day, and I'm obliged to caution you that having been sworn
6 as a witness you cannot have any communication with counsel from either
7 side. And in such conversation as you may have with anyone outside of
8 the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony.
9 So we will take the adjournment now until 9.00 tomorrow morning
10 in this courtroom -- I believe we're in this courtroom. Courtroom II,
11 I'm sorry, Courtroom II tomorrow, at which point Mr. Zecevic will
12 conclude his cross-examination which he estimates would be for another
13 90 minutes.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, just one more thing. I promised to
15 the witness that I would give him two documents. And my assistant, after
16 we adjourn, will bring it in and we will provide it with the Victims and
17 Witnesses Unit. Yes, okay, to the Registrar. Thank you very much.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.00 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day
21 of August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.