1 Monday, 30 August 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning
6 everybody in and around the courtroom. This is case IT-08-91-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Good afternoon to
10 May we have the appearances, please, before we go into closed
12 MS. KORNER: I'm happy to see that the Registrar wants a even
13 longer day, as he's been wishing everybody good morning.
14 Good afternoon, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, Charlotte Frew, and
15 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,
17 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic,
18 Mr. Brian Jacobi, Ms. Ivana Batista, and Ms. Wangeci Wahome appearing for
19 Stanisic Defence. We have our interns here who are leaving, so we -- we
20 thought that it would be appropriate that they spend one day inside the
21 room. Thank you very much for your understanding.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
23 Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and Ms. Katarina Danicic appearing for
24 Zupljanin Defence.
25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Is there any --
2 MS. NIKOLIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
3 Jelena Nikolic, lawyer, representing the witness.
4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm going to ask to go into private
6 session immediately, please.
7 JUDGE HALL: I was actually going to take that appearance in
8 closed session, but --
9 MS. KORNER: Private session will do.
10 JUDGE HALL: Private, yes.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 13881-13882 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, we were just wondering --
7 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, we should be in private session still.
8 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we conducted the interview of two
8 coming witnesses scheduled for -- for this week. It's ST-195 and ST -- I
9 believe, 197, if I'm not mistaken. No. ST-128. So those are the
10 witnesses which are coming after the witness today.
11 During the -- during the interview, these witnesses brought our
12 attention to the fact that one of them, namely ST-195, has testified in
13 an another case in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- before the state court of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning the subject matter of his testimony over
15 here. So -- and that -- that transcript or any kind of knowledge was --
16 was -- we were deprived of -- of knowledge about that. We received the
17 documents of his testimony in one of the cases, so apparently there are
18 two cases which are -- are currently tried before the court of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina for -- concerning the same incident that these --
20 all three of these witnesses are -- are going to testify about.
21 Now, we believe that -- that we should have been disclosed this
22 testimony in his case, like we were disclosed the previous one, and we
23 ask the office of the prosecutor to provide that.
24 Concerning the Witness ST-128, is a more or less similar
25 situation. He gave the statement to the prosecution -- to the
1 prosecutor's office of the state court of Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning
2 the same incident in -- in the spring of this year. So we requested the
3 office of the prosecutor to provide us with that document also, because
4 we -- we believe that we should be disclosed all the relevant documents
5 concerning their prior testimonies, their statement given to the
6 officials in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Now, honestly, Your Honours, the Defence was not aware of the
8 fact that there was a second case tried before the court of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina at all concerning this same incident. So we are aware of one
10 of the cases, and we're not aware of the second case. And in all -- in
11 all understanding of the difficulties, we believe that we should be made
12 available the relevant documents, because these documents definitely
13 are -- are concerning the -- directly with the subject matter that we are
14 going to hear from the witnesses that are coming this week. And I raised
15 that issue with -- with my friend Ms. Korner from the Prosecution, and we
16 decided that -- that there was -- since the time is so short between our
17 finding out about these things and informing the -- the Office of the
18 Prosecution and the start of the proceedings today that we raise it in
19 court and ask for your Judges' opinion or instructions.
20 Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE HALL: I assume, Mr. Zecevic, that there is no dispute as
22 to the disclosure insofar as possible from the calling side in this
23 matter, but the -- and at 15 years on in the life of this Tribunal there
24 is an established protocol as to the mechanics as to how this is achieved
25 when we're dealing with transcripts from Tribunals other than this
2 MS. KORNER: No, I'm sorry, Your Honour, there isn't. First of
3 all, we didn't know any more than the Defence did that either of these
4 two witnesses had testified in the state court or had made a statement
5 and one had testified. Both occasions happened after we had interviewed
7 There are no transcripts. We're not in possession of anything
8 that we could have disclosed even if we had known about it. They don't
9 produce transcripts at the state court unless specifically requested. So
10 we are in no position to disclose anything that we don't have.
11 We can, if we're asked to, make the request that the testimony --
12 well, the statement we can certainly probably get very quickly, but the
13 testimony would have to be transcribed. But as I say, we strongly reject
14 any suggestion that we're under any obligation to disclose matters that
15 we don't have and don't know anything about. As a matter of courtesy,
16 we'll see what we can do to arrange it, because I know that it's easier
17 for us than it is for the Defence, but the Defence have exactly the same
18 access to the BiH court and the BiH court regards as we do.
19 One of the difficulties, of course, is it obviously never
20 occurred to either witness that it was relevant to tell us this in
21 advance, and the state court don't tell us because they don't know who
22 our witnesses are. So that's the upshot. But the upshot is this:
23 Effectively, we will assist the Defence to get these documents. We
24 cannot, however, do it before the witnesses testify, and possibly we
25 might -- if -- if -- the witness who made a statement, we may be able to
1 get hold of that quicker, but not the person who testified.
2 So where -- the suggestion we make is that the witnesses go
3 ahead, are cross-examined in the normal way, and then if anything turns
4 up after the testimony, if necessary the witness can be recalled. So
5 that's the situation.
6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. I didn't mean to suggest that there was
7 any obligation on the part of the Prosecution to do the impossible. It's
8 just that as a matter of professional courtesy the -- one would expect
9 that you -- insofar as you're able to assist, that you would. And I
10 think that would go -- that goes without saying.
11 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. And if we know in advance about
12 testimonies, we do get them. I mean -- but, as I say, it's more of a
13 courtesy than anything else. Because, as I say, it's got not much to do
14 with us. But this time we didn't know; it came as as much a surprise to
15 us as to Mr. Zecevic that this has happened.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may be of assistance, we don't
17 need the transcripts, we just need the audiotapes. And according to my
18 knowledge, all audiotapes exist. And I would strongly disagree with my
19 learned friend about the ability of Defence and the ability of the Office
20 of the Prosecutor of this court in relation to the state court of
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't want to comment on that. On paper it
22 does appear to be similar, but in practice it is not.
23 Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment now to --
25 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, as it's quarter to 3.00, 4.15.
1 I'm sorry, would Your Honours say 4.15? I'd like an hour and a half,
3 JUDGE HALL: Very well.
4 --- Break taken at 2.48 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, thank you very much for the time that
7 you allowed us. We could go almost immediately into closed session and
8 there are a few matters to deal with before the witness comes in, but
9 they need to be dealt with in closed session. But can I just say that
10 we've made inquiries in respect of Mr. Zecevic's request. Almost
11 certainly we'll be able to get the statement that was made here tomorrow,
12 and it there's a possibility even that we may be able to get the -- the
13 tapes, yes.
14 So, Your Honours, can we go into closed session?
15 JUDGE HALL: Before we do that, I'm wondering whether -- and this
16 may be something -- I don't know if it's for closed session, but as --
17 I'm looking -- I'm reminding myself of the OTP's e-mail of Friday in
18 terms of the schedule for this week, and I'm wondering whether, having
19 regard to the delay today, I should make inquiries of the Registry at an
20 early stage as to the possibility of an extended sitting tomorrow.
21 MS. KORNER: I'd be very grateful. Thank you very much,
22 Your Honour, if that could happen, because, as I explained, for various
23 reasons, and they're professional reasons, I can't be here on Wednesday.
24 So -- we still hope to finish. My understanding is that Mr. Krgovic will
25 take a couple of sessions, but that Mr. Cvijetic will be shorter.
1 JUDGE HALL: Could either side indicate as to how much time the
2 Registry should be looking for tomorrow?
3 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I would have thought at the -- a
4 maximum of one extra session, at the absolute maximum, and hopefully we
5 can still complete within the allowed time.
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic seems to be in agreement with that.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I can confirm that because I
8 discussed with my learned friend from the Prosecutor. So I think we're
9 down for maybe one additional session.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE HALL: So the Registry would make the appropriate
12 inquiries, and we would report to let counsel know tomorrow where we are.
13 Thank you.
14 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HALL: So we now go into closed session.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 13890-13938 redacted. Closed session.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day
24 of August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.