1 Wednesday, 8 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Good morning, everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning everyone.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner and
13 Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.
14 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 Appearing for Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and
16 Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.
17 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... good morning,
18 Your Honours. For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic and Miroslav Cuskic.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 And if there is nothing that we need give our attention to, could
22 the shutters be lowered so that the witness may take the stand -- may be
23 escorted to the stand.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, can I
25 just raise with you the question asked by Judge Harhoff yesterday about a
1 plan showing the River Vrbas and the cliffs -- sorry.
2 In fact, the River Vrbas doesn't run around the cliff area. I
3 think there was a slight confusion. Your Honour may be thinking that
4 there were two incidents. One is the killings at Koricanske Stijene; and
5 the other is the bodies that were floated into the River Vrbas which came
6 from the Manjaca. So that it's not -- we've just been checking.
7 We've actually got a plan to show the cliffs, an ordinance survey
8 one and some Google photographs. But we were looking for the River Vrbas
9 and suddenly realized, of course, that it didn't run through that bit of
10 the terrain.
11 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you, Ms. Korner. My interests, of course,
12 was to discover whether the place where the bodies were found was within
13 the area of responsibility of the 122nd Light Brigade so as to ensure
14 that it would come under the -- the jurisdiction of -- of the brigade.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes. The -- Your Honour, we'll show that later on
16 when I come to the incident. But, yes, I think Your Honours will hear
17 that the bodies were found within the area because they're found at the
18 bottom of the cliff. The Vrbas bodies are different. They're from the
19 Manjaca killings. And they floated into Banja Luka.
20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Well, I take it, then, that you will explore with
21 the witness, whether the place where the bodies were found in the Vrbas
22 River was within or without -- outside the area of responsibility.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. I will.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, could we go into private session just
2 for a moment while I just explain -- say something to the witness.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 14387 redacted.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
3 MS. KORNER: Yeah.
4 Q. I want to ask you about another aspect about which this
5 Trial Chamber has heard, namely, that of town commands.
6 Can you tell the Court, please, what your understanding was of
7 what a town command is, or was.
8 A. Town command is a concept dating back to the times of the
9 Yugoslav People's Army, but it was in those times called garrison
10 command. Sometimes the term "garrison command" was used, and in other
11 places, like in Slavonia
12 However, with the outbreak of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
13 the term "town command" was unknown to me because it was not used. In
14 Banja Luka, there was a garrison command, but it dealt with
15 military/civilian affairs. Perhaps there was a garrison command in some
16 other towns where JNA units were formally stationed, such as Doboj,
17 Bijeljina. I don't know whether they were transformed with the outbreak
18 of the conflict into town commands or they remained garrison commands.
19 In Banja Luka, there was a garrison command operating.
20 Q. Yes. Sir, can -- leaving aside the terminology for a moment,
21 whether it's a town command or a garrison command, what was a garrison
23 A. A garrison command was a military territorial organ that dealt
24 with residential issues, organising festivities, ceremonies, some
25 functions of the garrison command -- contact with civilian authorities.
1 The spectre of issues that the garrison command dealt with was rather
3 Q. All right. So that's -- you say -- you've just said that it
4 was -- a town command was unknown to you.
5 Can we have a look, please, on the screen at the document --
6 because you talked about this in your statement which you made only a
7 month or so ago -- sorry, where's my ...
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm so sorry, I've just remembered
9 I've lost my list.
10 Q. Yes, could you have a look, please, at document 10501.
11 MS. KORNER: Tab 13.
12 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 25th of November, 1991
13 the Civilian Defence Sector. And it's signed by Dr. Pujic.
14 MS. KORNER: And if we go, please, to the second page --
15 Q. Does that -- is that headed: Tasks of the organs for civilian
16 affairs in the JNA commands and the town commands. And: We hereby
17 attach the tasks for the organs for civilian affairs in the commands of
18 JNA units and town commands.
19 Now, are you sure that you hadn't heard about this before the
20 outbreak of hostilities?
21 A. I never saw this document before, nor have I ever heard of it.
22 During proofing, it was shown to me, and I then gave my answer,
23 which I can repeat. Namely, this document, referring to crisis areas,
24 was written at the time when, in the former Socialist Federal Republic
1 what crisis areas are referred to when these two former republics had
2 already been internationally recognised.
3 I think this document is more of wishful thinking than anything
4 that could be applicable in practice.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first of all, sir, you
6 weren't shown this -- or you were, as well, but you had a look at this
7 document when you made your statement. Do you recollect the contents of
8 your statement that you made, which you signed in August this year?
9 A. Yes, of course, I remember my statement.
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and do you remember you were
11 asked specifically about town commands and shown that document then.
12 Sir? Did you hear the question?
13 A. That -- this document was not shown to me. Another document was
14 shown to me.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right.
16 A. With a stamp of the 19th Partisan Brigade, and it referred to
17 Gornji Vakuf, I think. The investigator asked me then whether it was
18 possible for zones of responsibility of units to overlap, because that
19 document about the town command concerned Gornji Vakuf, whereas my
20 command was in Skender Vakuf. And I explained that it was an essential
21 difference. Donji Vakuf, Gornji Vakuf, and Skender Vakuf --
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
23 A. Are three different things. I think this is a mistake in
25 Q. All right. I think it may help you to refresh your memory from
1 your statement.
2 MS. KORNER: Could we have up on the screen, please, 9083.
3 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to the
4 statement being shown to the witness. He should be simply asked whatever
5 questions Ms. Korner has.
6 MS. KORNER: He is clearly totally in error about this, if
7 Your Honours have a look at the statement, and I would invite
8 Your Honours to allow him to refresh his memory from his statement.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE HALL: This is merely for purposes of refreshing his
11 memory, I take it. Yes.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, you'll see he's gone right -- it's --
13 given the -- the number of documents he went through, which was numerous,
14 as Your Honours will see, we suggest this is purely an error of
15 recollection on his behalf.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 MS. KORNER: So it would help, I think, if he can refresh his
19 JUDGE HALL: So he can look at the document and then you may ask
20 your question.
21 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Thank you very much, Your Honours.
22 We need the fourth page in both English and B/C/S.
23 Q. Sir, can I invite you, please, to just read the paragraphs 15,
24 16, and 17. I see you've got a copy with as well of that statement just
25 to remind yourself.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can this not go out on the screen,
3 Q. And do you recognise, there, your signature at the bottom and the
4 date, the 6th of August?
5 A. Yes. I have the original of my statement in my hands now, and
6 it's the same as what I see on the screen. That's precisely my
7 statement, and I stand by it.
8 Q. All right. So -- you stand by your statement, sir, that you made
9 about town commands, that the JNA combat regulations covered the issue,
10 that they were limited to the defence of large towns --
11 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, yesterday when we were engaged in a
12 similar exercise, because it was not a matter in controversy, I was
13 minded to observe that I trust that none of the more junior attorneys in
14 the Office of the Prosecutor was thinking that in the case of a document
15 which is, in fact, not being admitted into evidence, a question may be
16 phrased in such a manner that the contents are, at the end of the day,
17 read into the record.
18 I would make that observation now and point out that inasmuch as
19 this is a matter in controversy, you should phrase your question in such
20 a way that you are not putting into the record, reading into the record,
21 something which is not admissible at this point.
22 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honours, he's just said "I stand by my
23 statement." I can, of course, ask a series of questions, but isn't it
24 simpler -- there's no other way. I'm not asking for it to be exhibited
25 because it contains other matters, but the only way to get the actual
1 matters that he stands by into the record are to put them to him. That's
2 the difficulty.
3 JUDGE HALL: I appreciate that it is not without difficulty.
4 But, nevertheless, you should phrase the question in such a way to avoid
5 this problem that I've identified. Because the vices, I would have
6 thought obvious.
7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, certainly.
8 Q. All right, sir. Can we just deal with this, this way.
9 You told us a minute ago you had not heard of town commands. Was
10 that an error on your part, now that you see the statement that you made?
11 A. Commands of town defences is a term that existed back in
12 peacetime in the former Yugoslavia
13 places, they were called garrison commands; and in other places, they
14 were called town defence commands. And when I was giving this statement,
15 I also spoke about the defence of towns against an aggression already
16 taking place, when a town is being included into the defence system of a
17 unit, town defence as a combat, tactical act.
18 There could be a confusion between two types of defence. In
19 peacetime there was also a town defence command, but it was in that time
20 not a combat tactical operation. My answer here is directed at defence
21 in situations when a town was included into a unit's defence system.
22 In any case, I did give this statement, and I stand by it.
23 Q. All right. In a time where there was a conflict going on, was
24 the town command under the control of the civilian authorities or the
25 military authorities?
1 A. Well, a town command was under the jurisdiction of military
2 authorities. And that goes for garrison commands as well.
3 The garrison command of Banja Luka was a military organ, and it
4 was under the jurisdiction of military authorities.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please leave garrison
6 commands, which appears to be different, as we've looked at the document,
7 and deal with town commands.
8 You've just said that they were under the jurisdiction of
9 military authorities. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, therefore,
10 how you came to tell the investigator that:
11 "Town commands were under the control of civilian authorities and
12 only in rare cases in which a town lacked a functioning civilian
13 authority did the military take control over a town command."
14 A. Well, perhaps there was a misunderstanding of terms. I said that
15 I knew only about two defence commands in the town of Brod
16 town of Derventa, where organs of the command had been installed to
17 defend those towns, pending the functioning of civilian authorities. As
18 for the other towns, I don't know.
19 In my zone of operations of the 122nd Brigade, there were no town
20 defence commands, not in a single town located in the zone.
21 Q. Sir, I'm sorry, can I just stick, for a moment, to the statement.
22 You actually were given a copy of the statement in your own
23 language, weren't you, before you signed it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And presumably, in the position that you held when you were
1 working, you read through any document before you signed it to make sure
2 it was accurate?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Well, we've just gone through paragraph -- the beginning of
5 paragraph 16 of that statement, and you say now that's total wrong. Can
6 you just explain to the Trial Chamber how you came to sign a statement
7 that contained matters that you say now are wrong?
8 A. I'm only trying to clarify the notion of town defence, in terms
9 of combat operations, in which a town, during combat operations, is
10 included in the defence system of a unit. I'm also trying to
11 differentiate between this document signed by General Pujic as an
12 instruction for establishing organs for civilian affairs. That's the
13 essence of it.
14 I think that there was just a misunderstanding. I'm constantly
15 talking about including a town into the defence systems whilst defence
16 operations are being conducted in an assigned area.
17 Q. Can we just look, please, at the next sentence that you signed
18 after you'd explained that only in rare cases did the military take
19 control over a town command.
20 "In such cases, the military unit in control of the town command
21 would only perform civilian duties aimed at restoring civilian
22 infrastructure and re-establishing civilian authorities as soon as
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct. There is no dispute about that.
1 Q. If a town command had been established, and you tell us you
2 personally had no such dealings, did the police come under the control -
3 civilian police - come under the control of the military?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And why was that?
6 A. Because the civilian police, as I already said, was subordinated
7 within the control and command system under its superior organs and not
8 to the army.
9 Q. If there was a functioning Crisis Staff, as we will see shortly
10 in respect of Kotor Varos, was there any necessity for a town command to
11 be established?
12 A. No, there wasn't.
13 Q. If a town command had been established somewhere and the military
14 had taken charge because there was no functioning civilian authority,
15 would the military continue to be in charge once civilian authority was
17 A. I know only about two towns in which this occurred as -- but, as
18 soon as the civilian authorities were established, they assumed their
19 duties and continued to work. This is what I said in my statement as
20 well, and those were the towns of Derventa and Brod. I don't know about
21 other towns. But as for the towns in the area of responsibility of the
22 unit under my command, there were no military commands of towns and
23 things like that.
24 Q. Yes. Well, then, I think that's as far as I need take it. Thank
25 you, sir.
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can we now go into private session for
2 the next few series of questions.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 14398-14402 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
5 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, sir, this is a document which is actually headed: "The
7 1st Krajina Corps," and it's the 21st of May of 1992. And it talks about
8 a general mobilisation of the Serbian Republic of BH Army
9 orders -- or the decision of the 20th of May has initiated a general
10 mobilisation. And then General Talic says at the bottom:
11 "I hereby order ..."
12 And then:
13 "1. Immediately establish direct contact with the municipal and
14 military and territorial organs on the ground, offering expert and
15 materiel support for the mobilisation process."
16 Was that something, sir, that you followed, that order?
17 A. In this order, one should distinguish between orders issued by a
18 commander to his subordinate commanders, and that applies to the corps
19 command as well.
20 In order words, when he says "establish contacts with municipal
21 and military and territorial organs on the ground and offer expert and
22 materiel support for the mobilisation process," this task referred to the
23 organ for personnel and mobilisation recruitment of a corps.
1 I submitted my request for providing troops through regular or
2 interim combat reports, stating the exact number of men that I needed.
3 And I resolved all these issues through the corps command.
4 There is an organ for personnel and mobilisation issues within a
5 corps command, which acted upon my request by granting it fully or
6 partially or not at all. They made their own requests; send it to the
7 ministry; and then the ministry, within their responsibilities, would
8 pass on these decisions to the lower organs at the level of municipality.
9 That was the regular procedure. It was not up to me to go directly to
10 the municipality and ask for my unit to be manned.
11 Q. All right. Did -- did you have any say, then, in the recruitment
12 process that took place? Very simple: Yes or no?
13 A. No.
14 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honours, can I -- I think line -- yes,
15 page 19, line 24, just needs to be redacted.
16 JUDGE HALL: We're in the process of dealing with that.
17 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 Q. Sir, we've just looked at the minutes of the National Defence
20 Council for Kotor Varos. Kotor Varos was then, was it not, a
21 municipality with mixed ethnic groups who were in charge of civilian
24 A. As far as I know, and I submitted those papers to you as well,
25 Kotor Varos had a mix of population in which all the ethnic groups were
1 approximately equally represented. There were 29 per cent Croats;
2 31.5 per cent Serbs; and 30 per cent Bosniaks, or Muslims, as they were
3 known then. It's official data from the Institute for Statistics. And
4 there was also equal representation of the ethnic communities in the
5 municipal authorities, I think. I don't have official statistics for
7 Q. Sir, all that I'm saying is this couldn't be in any way described
8 as a -- a municipality in which the Serbs had a majority, could it?
9 A. As for the civilian authorities, I don't know. I know that at
10 the time of that meeting, the 7th of April, the president of the
11 municipality was Ante Mandic, a Croat.
12 Q. Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but as I've already explained,
13 we have got limited time. Sir, all I'm saying is that as far as you were
14 concerned it could not be described as a municipality where the Serbs had
15 a absolute majority; they were not the biggest section of the population?
16 A. Statistics say so. I don't need to say anything. The Serbs were
17 38.1 per cent. I did not write that percentage. That's from the
18 Institute of Statistics
19 Q. As you said, sir, it rather speaks for itself?
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Korner, this is an adjudicated fact, so --
21 MS. KORNER: Yes -- [microphone not activated] -- I'm trying to
22 get to the witness's own state of mind about it, as opposed to what the
23 actual statistics are.
24 Q. Sir, your aware, aren't you, however, that on 11th of June there
25 was a takeover in Kotor Varos by the Serbs? And can you just please
1 answer that question yes or no.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, two days before that takeover, did you attend a meeting at
4 the CSB in Banja Luka, on the 9th of June?
5 A. Whether it was the 8th or the 9th, I really can't be sure, but I
6 attended a meeting in Banja Luka on the orders of General Talic, who
7 informed me that at the Security Services Centre there would be a meeting
8 attended by the representatives of Kotor Varos municipality and the
9 chief [as interpreted] with his associates, that I should go to that
10 meeting, see what it was about, and report back, as I did, at the
11 municipality of Kotor Varos.
12 I don't remember the date when it happened, but it could be --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... first, even if you can't
14 remember the date, was it shortly before the takeover of Kotor Varos?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You said that you were ordered to go to this meeting which was
17 attended by the representatives of Kotor Varos municipality and the chief
18 with his associates.
19 Who do you mean by "the chief"?
20 A. I didn't say "chief." I said "organs." From Kotor Varos, there
21 was Nedeljko Djekanovic, Momcilo Komljenovic; those two men represented
22 Kotor Varos.
23 Q. Yes, sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding. What you
24 actually said, as recorded or translated, was that "... there would be a
25 meeting attended by the represents [sic] of Kotor Varos
1 municipality" comma "and the chief with his associates ..."
2 Now, as it was at the CSB in Banja Luka, who was there from the
4 A. From the CSB, there was Mr. Zupljanin, Stojan Zupljanin, and
5 whether there was anyone else coming and going from that meeting, I
6 believe at some stages other people were there too. But Stojan Zupljanin
7 was there for sure.
8 Q. Had you met Stojan Zupljanin before that meeting, or was that the
9 first time?
10 A. I had informal encounters before, but this was our first official
11 meeting together. But we had met before, unofficially.
12 Q. And when you say you met unofficially, where had you met
14 A. Well, I probably ran into him in town. Whether he had visited
15 the corps command or not, I can't remember. But we did meet before.
16 That was, however, the first official meeting.
17 Q. You say that he had visited -- whether he had visited the corps
18 command or not, I can't remember. Were you aware that he was in the
19 habit of visiting the corps command?
20 A. I can't tell that you. I don't know. Because when I met him,
21 that was by chance, in passing. Whether he came to the corps command, I
22 don't know.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... well, you say you met him by
24 chance, in passing. At some stage somebody must have introduced you to
25 him or the other way around; how did that happen, and where did that
2 A. Well, he introduced himself the first time he met me. I had not
3 met him before I returned from service in Slavonia, where I had been
4 stationed before. Until that time, I did not know Stojan Zupljanin or
5 anyone else there.
6 Q. Well, let's go back to the meeting, please, and let's look at
7 some of the other people who you say were there. Mr. Djekanovic, you
8 say, was there from Kotor Varos. Mr. Komljenovic. What about the chief
9 of police, Mr. Tepic? Was he there?
10 A. There was a number of people, quite a few people there. I don't
11 have the list here, but there were 15, perhaps even 20 people there.
12 There was the chief of the secretariat. In fact, commander of the
13 TO staff, Mane Tepic, if I remember correctly. Whether Savo Tepic was
14 there as well, I'm not sure, but possibly. There was commander of the
15 police station whom I didn't know.
16 Q. Did you know Ljuban Ecim?
17 A. I met Ljuban Ecim by chance in Kotor Varos. I didn't know him
18 before that.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I appreciate that you met
20 him in Kotor Varos. But -- did -- was he at that meeting?
21 A. No. At that meeting, the 7th of April, he wasn't there.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... not the 7th of April. The
23 8th or 9th of June, this meeting at the CSB.
24 A. He may have been for a shorter or longer while, but while I was
25 speaking, I don't remember him being present.
1 There were those two men from Kotor Varos Djekanovic and
2 Komljenovic. There was Stojan Zupljanin, as the chief --
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you've already mentioned,
4 but I'm just asking about certain people. What about Zdravko Samardzija?
5 A. I don't remember he was there.
6 Q. Or Slobodan Dubocanin?
7 A. I don't know. I don't think so. I don't know because I didn't
8 know these people at all. I believe at the beginning of the meeting none
9 of those people were there.
10 Q. Yes. I appreciate you may not have known them then. But later,
11 the three men that I've just mentioned, Ecim, Samardzija, and Dubocanin,
12 you did know, didn't you?
13 A. I got to know them only in Kotor Varos, not earlier.
14 Q. You say -- you said on a number of occasions that there was,
15 effectively, certain people there at the beginning of the meeting and
16 certain people who came later. Was Stojan Zupljanin there from the
17 beginning of the meeting?
18 A. Yes. While I was there, he was present. I don't know if he
19 stayed till the end, because after I finished my contribution, I left. I
20 don't know if he stayed on.
21 Q. You told us you were ordered to go to the meeting by
22 General Talic. Did he explain to you what the meeting was about and why
23 you should attend?
3 Q. And what was discussed at the meeting?
4 A. I don't have a single document from that meeting anymore. I
5 don't even have my own notebook. But the discussion was about the
6 deteriorated military/political situation in the municipality. I believe
7 Nedeljko Djekanovic spoke about that.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, go on, sir.
9 A. He mentioned, I remember, that inter-ethnic tensions are rising;
10 that people were arming themselves; that there were Bosniaks and Croats
11 going about town wearing uniforms of the Muslim and the Croat army, and
12 that was disturbing for the citizens; that the road
13 Banja Luka-Kotor Varos had already been cut off at a place called
14 Vrbanjci by Bosniak forces. I think, at that time, the change in
15 authorities had not yet taken place because the set of people in power
16 then had been defeated at the elections but they were reluctant to
17 relinquish power. I think there was some discussion about that. And
18 that everything was coming close to a culmination and that inter-ethnic
19 conflict was quite possible.
20 There were reports that both Muslims and Croats - able-bodied men
21 of military age, I mean - who were arming themselves, procuring weapons
22 in various ways from Croatia
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stop, please, sir.
24 Did anybody mention the Serbs arming themselves?
25 A. When it was said that everybody was arming themselves, that must
1 have meant Serbs too, because it's very difficult to control such popular
2 arming because it seems to follow its own course. There were loads of
3 weapons among the civilian population.
4 Q. Now, sir, you said that at that time the change in authorities
5 had not yet taken place.
6 Do you mean by that the takeover that took place, two days later,
7 or three days later, whatever it may have been?
8 A. Precisely. I don't know who won in Kotor Varos, really.
9 Q. Sorry. Sorry, sir. You've told us you remember the takeover of
10 Kotor Varos on the 11th of June. You've told this meeting was a few days
11 before that. You've just said: "I think at that time the change in
12 authorities" -- that is to say, at the meeting "had not yet taken place."
13 Do you mean, by that, the takeover of power which happened three
14 days later?
15 A. That's precisely what I meant. I -- I have to say again I don't
16 know who won at the elections, and nor was I interested which party got
17 the most votes, won the second or the third. But there was a change in
18 government on the 11th of June when Nedeljko Djekanovic replaced
19 Ante Mandic as president of the municipality. Now, who won, I really
20 don't know; whether one of them was right and the other was wrong and
21 which one, I don't know. I didn't go into that.
22 Q. I'm sorry, sir, we're not talking about a democratic election,
23 are we, here; we're talking about a takeover of power done forcibly.
24 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is being
25 lead as to how the government changed. He already said how the
1 government changed.
2 MS. KORNER: Forgive me, Mr. Cvijetic, but I don't think he did.
3 Q. All right. Just explain to us, sir, how was the government
4 changed on the 11th of June?
5 A. All I can tell you is that the duties of the president of the
6 municipality were taken over by Nedeljko Djekanovic instead of
7 Ante Mandic. And how and for what reason, Nedeljko Djekanovic is the
8 best placed to say.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I want to know your own
10 knowledge of that. What was the decision made at the end of this meeting
11 that took place in CSB -- in the CSB?
15 I don't know the details of that meeting because it's outside my
16 field of competence.
17 Q. Sir, again, this is something you discussed in your interview in
18 March of this year. Would it help you to refresh your memory from that
19 interview, which I know you didn't have an opportunity to listen to
20 before you testified?
21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, where we are going with this
22 refreshing process? Where -- where it will end? It seems that we are
23 going in wrong direction, Your Honours, if we shall have this refreshing
24 process every time, every minute. Is it a viva voce testimony or what?
25 JUDGE HALL: Anyway, we will take the break now and resume in
1 20 minutes.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 [The witness stands down]
4 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE HALL: Notwithstanding Mr. Pantelic's intervention, I
9 should have, in respect of the application the -- or suggestion put by
10 Ms. Korner, permitted the witness to refresh his memory during the break.
11 Perhaps he can take a minute or two now to do that before you rephrase
12 your question, Mr. -- before you re-put your question, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes, of course, I suddenly remember that although
14 his statement had been translated, his interview hasn't. So he can't
15 read his interview, so he'd have to listen to it. Or else I'd have to
16 read it to him. But I think I may be able to get at what I need another
17 way, Your Honours, rather than trying it that way.
18 JUDGE HALL: As you wish.
19 MS. KORNER:
12 Q. All right. I think I'm going to have to remind you, then, sir.
13 This is at page 20 of the interview. But can I just remind you of what
14 you said and see if that refreshes your memory.
15 "The decision was made that within two days an operation led by
16 the Banja Luka CSB police, more specifically by a detachment that they
17 would establish as reinforcements for the Kotor Varos police. The idea
18 was disarm paramilitary formations in town, preventing inter-ethnic
19 clashes, arrests within the limits of the law of the criminals. There
20 was a whole series of tasks that Zupljanin listed out."
21 Now, does that refresh your memory, sir, about what you told us;
22 and is that right?
23 A. Well, this is not my statement, probably. But there was mention
24 of the need for reinforcing the police station in Kotor Varos.
25 As for the details, how that would be done, I don't know about
1 that, nor can I remember, because that was 19 years ago. I didn't take
2 any notes relating to this particular portion of the discussion.
3 Therefore, I don't know.
4 Q. I'm sorry, sir. When you say "that's not my statement" - and
5 you'll have an opportunity, if necessary, to listen to it over the
6 break - that's what you told us in March of this year. Now, are you
7 saying you no longer recollect this part of the discussion, or are you
8 asserting that you never told us that?
9 A. Well, I assert that I did attend the meeting. There's no doubt
10 about that, and I remember what I said.
11 As for other things that I said, I can't recollect, concerning
12 this particular meeting.
13 Q. Well, let's try and get a final answer from you, sir.
14 Was there a discussion, when you were present, with
15 Stojan Zupljanin saying that there would be an operation led by the
16 Banja Luka CSB police, more specifically by a detachment that they would
17 establish as reinforcements for the Kotor Varos police, with a list of
18 tasks that they were to carry out?
19 A. Whether this was said by Stojan Zupljanin or whether he used the
20 word "operation," I don't remember.
21 There was discussion about the necessity of providing assistance
22 to the police in Kotor Varos in carrying out their regular duties;
23 however, how that was done was out of the scope of my competence, and I
24 didn't go into that. That was a matter for the police.
25 Q. I perfectly understand it was outside your competence, sir. All
1 I'm asking is that -- whether you now remember that you heard that being
2 said by Stojan Zupljanin, that the police in Kotor Varos would be
3 reinforced by a special police unit that would come from the Banja Luka
4 CSB. Leave aside whether that was of any interest to you or not.
5 A. There was mention of reinforcing the police force in Kotor Varos.
6 However, in what way, with which forces, and when, I didn't hear that.
7 It was said that the Kotor Varos police needed assistance in carrying out
8 their regular tasks.
9 Q. And did anybody else at that meeting, other than
10 Stojan Zupljanin, have the authority or the manpower to assist the
11 Kotor Varos police?
12 A. I don't know that. That was up to the police, or milicija. And
13 it was up to Stojan Zupljanin to take care of the organisation at the
14 Banja Luka CSB. And I don't know anything about that.
15 Q. Later on, did you become aware, in Kotor Varos, of a detachment
16 of special police?
20 As for the contents of this meeting, I informed my superior,
21 General Talic, because he was the one who ordered me to attend that
22 meeting; that was the proper thing to do.
23 On the 11th of June, there was change of power. And on that day,
24 I noticed, only towards the evening when I was passing through
25 Kotor Varos, I noticed men in special uniforms carrying out certain
1 police tasks in the town of Kotor Varos. So that was on the
2 11th of June.
3 On that same date, the forming of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade
4 of Kotor Varos began, pursuant to an order that came probably from the
5 corps command. I don't see who else could have issued such an order.
6 And this is what I know, and that is to say that there was presence on
7 that day of members in special uniforms in the town of Kotor Varos
8 Q. And what were these men in special uniforms doing?
9 A. Well, what they exactly did, I don't know. But I did see them on
10 the streets. I saw that they walked around in patrols. But what else
11 they did, I don't know.
12 Q. I'll come on to what you knew later about their activities in a
14 MS. KORNER: But can I ask that we go into private session just
15 for the next question and answer.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
17 [Private session]
11 Pages 14418-14423 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: And we're back in open session, Your Honours.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. KORNER:
17 Q. Sir, all I want to ask you about this --
18 JUDGE HALL: Perhaps the document shouldn't be displayed on the
20 MS. KORNER: Yes.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 MS. KORNER:
23 Q. I want to ask you about two matters, sir, in this meeting.
24 Mr. Tepic informed the Crisis Staff that -- and you've told us
25 Mr. Tepic was the TO commander, was he not?
1 A. Mr. Mane Tepic, at the time, was already the commander of
2 Kotor Varos Light Brigade formed on the 11th. Before that, he was the
3 commander the Kotor Varos TO staff.
4 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MS. KORNER: Can we go back into private session, please.
7 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
8 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
24 MS. KORNER:
25 Q. It says there that a village - I think there's a misspelling
1 there; it should be Rujevica - had been cleaned out.
2 What did you understand by that? What did "cleaning out" mean?
3 A. I don't know what Mr. Tepic meant when he said that Rujika was
4 cleaned out, and Rujika encompassed lot. I won't go into that at the
5 moment. But I think he was talking about Rujevica hill. It's a small
6 hill at the exit point of Kotor Varos.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. However, what he meant - I mean, Mr. Tepic - but it being cleaned
9 out, whether rubbish was cleaned out, litter, I don't know.
10 Q. Please, sir, you're not trying to suggest that the commander of
11 the Kotor Varos Light Brigade at the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff meeting was
12 talking about clearing litter?
13 A. I didn't mean litter in the ordinary sense. I thought some
14 wrecked vehicles, perhaps, were removed or something. But I really don't
15 know what Mr. Tepic had in mind.
16 Mr. Tepic had a university degree in All People's Defence and
17 social self-protection from Sarajevo
18 using terminology.
19 Q. Did you understand it had anything to do with removing non-Serbs
20 from the area?
21 A. From what I know, there are no Serbs or Croats or Muslims on that
22 hill. It's a hill. It wasn't populated. It's just an elevation.
23 Q. It doesn't actually say Rovica. It talks about Rujika.
24 A. I repeat: I don't know what Rujika is or what it could be. I
25 know only about Rujevica. I don't know what Mr. Tepic said when he
1 said -- if he said Rujika.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you also attended, did you
3 not, a meeting the following day, the 20th of June. And can we just
4 look, quickly, just to identify you as being present, on the
5 26th [sic] -- at document 10106.
6 MS. KORNER: Again, not to go on the screen, please.
7 Q. That states, under item 1, that you were giving them a briefing,
8 does it not?
15 Q. Yes.
16 MS. KORNER: Can we look, then, please, at the meeting on the
17 22nd of June, which is 10507.
18 Q. Again, you were there. And it's stated at -- that -- at the
19 bottom of item 1:
20 "A solution to the problems," which are described above, "had to
21 be found and that better coordination had to be established urgently
22 between the army, the special police units, and our police."
23 What was the problem between - because you told us that the whole
24 idea was that there should be this cooperation - what was the problem
25 between the cooperation, or coordination?
1 A. Well, from time to time, certain problems cropped up.
2 Q. Give us an example, please.
3 A. But they were not so frequent, and they were not problems between
4 the army and the special police. They were not grave, but they needed to
5 be dealt with.
6 For instance: Through the check-point controlled by my unit,
7 somebody from that special police would pass without stopping. The
8 problem was that the HVO forces became more massively engaged coming from
9 Central Bosnia
10 to reach that check-point. If somebody doesn't stop, the military police
11 don't know whether it was a member of the special police or perhaps a
12 member of the HVO. So these minor problems and other problems I warned
13 other people about so that we shouldn't clash in -- in our work.
14 Q. Yes. The -- the interpretation for the -- your -- the beginning
15 of your answer was that "they were not problems between the army and the
16 special police." But from what you've just said, you're describing
17 problems that existed between the army and the special police; is that
19 A. Well, that was one case, when a member of the special police came
20 by in his car, but we resolved that then and it didn't happen anymore.
21 It was not -- not just about the special police but anyone in
22 uniform passing through the check-point controlled by the military
24 Q. What about the actions which the special police were taking in
25 Kotor Varos, in respect of dealing with the non-Serbs? Was that ever a
1 problem, as far as the army was concerned?
2 A. Well, all the actions carried out by the police, special or
3 otherwise, were not a problem to the army because the army was doing its
4 job, and the police was carrying on their work, within their
5 competencies. And if any problem occurred, that problem was to be
6 resolved by the police or in contacts between the police and the civilian
7 authorities. If the police had a problem, that was within their purview.
8 They were responsible for their own force and their own actions, just
9 like army units are responsible to their commander for their actions.
10 Q. You see, originally, you told us that when you had said at the
11 meeting of the National Defence Council on the 7th of April that you
12 would protect all nationalities, you meant that. Did it ever occur to
13 you that non-Serbs in the Kotor Varos area needed protection from the
14 special police?
19 Q. Well, you see, let's look, please, at a meeting on the
20 26th of June, a couple of days later.
21 MS. KORNER: Which is document - it's already an exhibit - P81,
23 Q. You're there, and you brief the Crisis Staff, as we can see. And
24 then there's a long discussion, isn't there, about what had happened at
25 the health centre and the killings by the special police?
1 Do you remember that, sir?
2 A. I remember there was talk at that meeting and some other meetings
3 about this, but I don't recall the details because I didn't keep the
4 minutes, although I did take some notes. I don't know where that
5 notebook is now.
6 I don't remember all the details anymore, but I remember this was
7 discussed. There were certain irregularities committed by that unit.
8 But I'm sure that it is exactly as the minutes read, but I can't
9 remember what it was about. I -- I had never been there, it wasn't my
10 responsibility, and I don't know about it.
11 Q. Yes. Well, this is what I want to deal with, sir: As far as you
12 were concerned, anything that was done by the special police, or any
13 other form of police in Kotor Varos, was none of your business; is that
14 what you're saying?
15 A. It couldn't have concerned me because it was not my
16 responsibility. Maybe it could have concerned me as a citizen, but my
17 area of competence was quite different from the area of competence of the
18 police. And what they were doing, I don't know. It was not my duty, nor
19 was I able to deal with something that I did not know outside my own
20 zone, and this was the area of the 1st Kotor Varos Light Brigade. It was
21 not my area. I can't know about that.
22 Q. Yes, all right. But you were attending all of these - and we can
23 count up -- I think it's at least a dozen or so meetings that you were
24 present at of the Crisis Staff during this period - in order to ensure
25 cooperation. You've told us that.
14 Q. I want to go back for a moment. There's one matter I should have
15 asked you about in an earlier meeting on the 25th of June, which is at --
16 MS. KORNER: It's 10508.
17 And, Your Honours, I think we better go back into private for
18 this bit -- one -- for this one.
19 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 14432-14438 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, while the shutters are going up, I'm
7 going to play the witness the video, which is already exhibited, P45,
8 which is at tab 34A, the transcript.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MS. KORNER: Sound. Anybody? Could we have sound, please.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Madam Korner, it appears that the matter is in
13 your hands. The Registrar is no longer running this tape.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'd move on to deal with something
16 else, but I really do need to play this video, and I need to have sound.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, we're informed that the AV booth may
19 be of assistance and they may add the sound to your video, but, in that
20 case, it appears that the sound will be available to the public. Is that
21 a problem?
22 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes. No, there's absolutely no problem with
23 that at all. This can all go out publicly.
24 JUDGE HARHOFF: In that case, we thank the AV booth for the
25 assistance, and kindly ask them to add the sound to this video.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
3 "... security of Banja Luka and the army ... with Muslim
5 "The mopping-up operations in the area around Kotor Varos
6 continue today. In a lightening operation, members of a special
7 detachment of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre and the Army of the
8 Serbian Republic
9 fortified strongholds of the Croat extremists. The specials and the army
10 had only one person injured in this operation, whereas the enemy had some
11 50 fatalities and a large number of wounded. The mopping-up continues,
12 and there are only three entrenched strongholds of the
13 Croat-Muslim outlaws left. In the town itself, the situation is
14 gradually returning to normal. Although movement is still allowed only
15 from 9.00 to 11.00, life is slowly returning to the streets of
16 Kotor Varos.
17 "Yesterday, Muslim and Croat forces allegedly wanted to negotiate
18 with the Serb side about the cessation of war and establishing peace in
19 these parts. The Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
20 the police accepted this invitation and set off for the meeting,
21 believing that an understanding was possible. Only a few kilometres from
22 Kotor Varos, our concealed hosts, Muslim extremists, waited hidden in
23 ambushes, and treacherously and perfidiously opened fire on the army and
24 police troops.
25 "In this perfidious attack, one person was killed and a number of
1 specials and soldiers wounded. Today, Captain Slobodan Zupljanin is also
2 in the Banja Luka hospital. We first went to visit Captain Zupljanin who
3 is currently recovering here.
4 "Captain Slobodan Zupljanin: To be quite frank, I suppose that
5 it could happen and we could be waylaid, but we never expected it at that
6 place because the place we were to go to ... is much better for an ambush
7 so that it came as a surprise. I am aware, though, after all the
8 situations in the West Slavonian theatre of war, from which I had come,
9 that the enemy will resort to any method, any means, any way to destroy
10 and liquidate us, systematically, step by step.
11 "Nenad Stevandic: I repeat, it is not all that important either
12 for Europe
13 MS. KORNER: Just pause there.
14 Q. Sir, looking at that clip of Captain Stevandic, are you able to
15 give us a rough date of when this video must have been shot?
16 A. I will have to look at the document. The fact is that
17 Captain Slobodan Zupljanin was wounded on the road between Kotor Varos
18 and Vrbanjci village; however, I honestly can't tell you the exact date.
19 I will have to consult some of my documents, so let's not waste time
20 about it. But he was ambushed, and on that occasion his driver was
21 killed; whereas, Captain Zupljanin sustained serious injuries.
22 MS. KORNER: Let's carry on then, please.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
25 "... know who we are dealing with, to know who is wagging war
1 against us, and how he wages that war because in this war all we can do
2 is either win or vanish. Anyone else's victory would unquestionably mean
3 that we would vanish and become extinct as a people.
4 "Reporter: Goran Tunic, a member of the special police detachment
5 from Banja Luka, was also seriously wounded yesterday.
6 "Tunic: There can be no more negotiations with them. They seem
7 to recognise only the language of arms, and that is how we should respond
8 to them.
9 "Reporter: Try to [as interpreted] do it to their own, and what
10 they are prepared to do to others, they show us day in and out.
11 "Announcer: It is high time for you finally to part company with
12 the extremists who endanger your lives by sowing terror, and we call on
13 you to immediately drive out any extreme individuals who have come to
14 your village, as your villages could go up in flames because of them. In
15 particular, we call upon the Muslim people not to be duped by Croat
16 extremists who push Muslims in front of them to kill Serbs. You must
17 realize that Croatian policy uses the Muslims in pursuit of their goals.
18 Citizens, go back to your homes, hand over your weapons, and once and for
19 all leave the extremists, who wish neither you nor your children well.
20 To all those who return their weapons, we guarantee absolute safety of
21 their property and persons, says the appeal of the Kotor Varos Crisis
23 MS. KORNER: Okay.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
1 "Reporter: ... under the control of Muslim and Croat extremists
2 the chief organisers of resistance in these villages are the notorious
3 criminals Muhamed Berbic" --
4 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... pause here, and
5 can we just go back slightly.
6 No. So just one shot before.
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
8 "... are under the control of Muslim and Croat extremists."
9 MS. KORNER:
10 Q. Sir, first of all, can you tell us what that weapon is?
11 A. This is an artillery piece, an anti-armour rocket --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters didn't hear the designation
14 MS. KORNER:
15 Q. Yeah, sorry, can you repeat what the number of the rocket is,
17 A. I'm repeating the name of the rocket: It has a serial number,
18 but this is 9K11 rocket. This is its official name.
19 Q. And the people in uniform, what sort of uniform is that?
20 A. As far as I can see, they're wearing the uniforms left behind by
21 the JNA.
22 Now, let me add one thing: Slobodan Zupljanin was wounded on the
23 25th of June at around 10.00 next to Rujevica hill.
24 Q. Yes. Can we carry on, please?
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
2 "... notorious criminals Muhamed Berbic and Mehmed Sadikovic.
3 They have many wounded in their ranks, and they're running out of food.
4 Vrbanjci, a recent Ustasha stronghold, is now firmly in the hands of the
5 army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 "Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko Peulic: On this occasion, I want to
7 point out that we have met with outstanding cooperation, even among those
8 people, but unfortunately, our experience in two villages where we
9 managed to reach an understanding, was that units of the
10 Interior Ministry of the Serbian Republic
11 unit were fired on from those villages so that we had to respond
13 "Reporter: Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you come, and how do
14 you see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos municipality?
15 "Radoslav Brdjanin: Let me tell you ..."
16 MS. KORNER: I want to pause for a moment.
17 Can we go into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 14445-14447 redacted.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
8 "... the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I must
9 inform the president of Crisis Staff about the political situation in the
10 area. We must clean up our area which unquestionably includes
11 Kotor Varos and Jajce. And the most important battle which is underway
12 and which I attended yesterday is the breakthrough to Serbia
13 can see ourselves that there can be no more negotiations with those who
14 are waging war against us. Those who took up arms must be defeated, hand
15 them over, and total Serb authority must rule here.
16 "Stojan Zupljanin: We requested the political structures to do
17 whatever is necessary to avoid possible conflicts when facilities could
18 be destroyed, when people could get killed and so on, but I must say that
19 the other side has accepted this activity of ours, at least in part. A
20 number of extremists, however, have taken to the woods and do not want to
21 place themselves under control or to return weapons.
22 "Reporter: The purpose -- this surprise visit by the Krajina
23 leadership to the Serbian soldier testifies to synchronised cooperations.
24 The officers and men of the Serbian armed formations, in addition to
25 activities for the liberation of the Serb territories, are also directly
1 included in the establishment of a corridor to Serbia as one of the
2 greatest operations in the history of the Serbian People.
3 "Announcer: ... a special police detachment and three in the Army
4 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
5 were lightly wounded. No sooner were their wounds dressed then they
6 returned, of their own accord, to their positions in order to help their
7 comrades break down the last enemy stronghold in the Kotor Varos
8 municipality. In fighting at Becici today, the Muslim-Croat extremists
9 had 30 dead and several dozen wounded. Incidentally, Becici is
10 surrounded by Serb forces. And among the rocks and caves are die-hard
11 extremists from this municipality who are refusing to surrender, although
12 it quite clear to them that there is no escape for any of them.
13 "Reporter: ... in ambushes, hiding in cliffs, the Ustasha opened
14 fire on members of the special detachment and Serbian troops. It was
15 then that fiercer fighting started.
16 "Soldier: We found ourselves in a gorge about two kilometres
17 long, under cross-fire, in a ready-made slaughter house.
18 "Reporter: After being wounded and given aid on the spot, the
19 wounded specials returned to their combat positions of their own accord
20 and resumed fighting whilst other wounded transferred from Kotor Varos to
21 Banja Luka hospital yesterday.
22 "Goran Sladojevic: It was difficult ... they were all
23 camouflaged, they fired on us so that it was simply ... [inaudible]
24 "Reporter: Where were you at the time, Goran?
25 "Goran Sladojevic: I was in the gorge leading to that village --
2 "Reporter: You were fired at with a dum-dum bullet?
3 "Goran Sladojevic: Yes, luckily it hit me from the side, into a
4 rock, actually, so the rest of it ..."
5 MS. KORNER:
6 Q. Sir, over -- in this video - and I can't remember where it is
7 now, unfortunately, and I don't want to waste time - there's shots of an
8 air force -- a plane bombing, did the Serb -- the VRS have air support?
9 A. I didn't see that footage here. The Army of Republika Srpska
10 could get air support but exclusively following rules. Now, the plan for
11 the approval and use of aviation envisages that the army command issues
12 an order granting air sorties, and requests for air support have to be
13 made like in any other context.
14 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... could you we
15 have up, please, now, and we don't need -- there's no transcript
16 necessary for the part I want to show, the next vide. It's 105 -- sorry.
17 It's 3623, and it -- this is one -- a new one that you admitted,
18 Your Honours.
19 And can we start, please, there - because it's just
20 identification I want from this video - at 5:40.
21 Yes, if we can just start there, please. Thank you.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. KORNER:
24 Q. And, sir, can you tell us when can you see on that video
25 Slobodan Dubocanin.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. KORNER:
3 Q. Is that Kotor Varos Police Station?
4 A. I can't see clearly in this footage. I cannot tell either way.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is outside the police station.
7 I see the garages, that is, the parking space outside the police station.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]
11 Q. Can you tell us whether you see Slobodan Dubocanin?
12 [Video-clip played]
13 A. I think this man wearing glasses who just passed by the camera
14 is -- is him.
15 Q. And what sort of uniform are these people wearing?
16 A. I don't know whose uniforms these are. I cannot tell.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
18 A. They are camouflage uniforms but not military camouflage.
19 MS. KORNER: Can we go then, please, very quickly to 9:18.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 Q. All right. Are you able to identify these people?
22 A. No. Because I really don't know these people. Apart from that
23 third man in the background. I believe I met him a couple of times, and
24 I think he said his name was Kajkut. The third one who just turned his
25 back. That -- that's ...
1 Q. Okay. What about -- are you able to identify Ljuban Ecim in any
2 of these three men?
3 A. I think I saw him earlier in close-up. I think that's the one
4 whose right arm is raised now.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. The other one in the background is Kajkut.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 A. Yes. That's Ljuban Ecim, as far as I can tell.
9 Q. All right. The weapon he's carrying, are you able to say whether
10 that's a military or police weapon?
11 A. As far as I can see, he's carrying something like a Heckler, an
12 automatic weapon. Or it's an automatic pistol. But it's a sawn-off
13 weapon. It's a short one. A Heckler is not an army weapon.
14 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right. That's all I
15 want to ask about this video.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may I ask that it now be admitted and
18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1579, Your Honours.
20 MS. KORNER: All right.
21 Q. I now want to leave the Kotor Varos matters and move to the
22 incident at Koricanske Stijene on the 22nd of August.
23 Sorry, just before I do that, I should have asked you this: What
24 did you understand that Dubocanin's position was? Was he a member of the
25 army or the police?
22 Q. Now, I do, as I say, want to move to the events of the
23 21st of August.
24 MS. KORNER: I think we better go into private session,
25 Your Honours. And, indeed, I think -- can we -- lines -- page 66,
1 lines 19 through to 25 needs to be redacted.
2 Can we go into private session, please.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 14445-14466 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE HALL: Well, we take the adjournment for today. You would
3 be notified as to the agreed date when you would return, and, of course,
4 the necessary arrangements would be made to facilitate your return.
5 And this hearing is adjourned to -- I can't remember which
6 courtroom we're in on ...
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE HALL: We resume at 2.15 on Monday, in Courtroom III. I
9 trust everyone has a safe weekend.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
13 September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.